If you feel like you simply have to acknowledge receipt of a payment for documentation, then make it as businessy and impersonal as possible. I also suggest email instead of text.
"Received your transfer of $14.99 on 11/01/2018. It was applied towards the $188.54 Visa bill for the month of November 2018."
Don't engage in anything more than that. He could very well say ”Happy New Year” or "Thanks, I hope you're doing good." My XW tried that, but in my mind my return address was always no-reply@joe2017.com.
Well, that's the "easy" thing about my sitch I guess. H doesn't ever try to do any temp checking, at least not up to this point. He's very much got the "business only" thing down from his side so that makes it a lot easier for me to follow suit.
In this case I won't even bother with any response then to the transfer. I didn't for the other ones either, so will just keep on keepin' on.
I hope one day I do have a chance to respond to a temp check. Temp checks, while just temp checks, are technically a good sign, right? I'm kinda sad that people talk about their spouses temp checking and that's never happened with my H
I know I do need to be prepared for if/when it comes though so that I don't get too excited and do the wrong thing.
Well, it depends on the context of the temp check. They are gauging your status, regardless.
In my experience temp checks fall into two categories:
- Are they still emotionally attached to me? (control)
- Are they available to me? (plan B)
You are probably best served by disregarding both. I went extreme NC during my D. I think my ratio was like 10:1 text messages, with responses only being about business and kids. The control temp checks eventually died off when she never got a response to the temp check or the ensuing hate messages.
About 6 months after the D was final I started getting the plan b temp checks. She was trying to see if I was an option. These coincided with times in which she was realizing that OM was a mistake. One time it was when she decided to cheat on OM to try and force him out of her life. Can you imagine what hell it would have caused me if I had fallen for that????!!? I also ignored all of these plan b checks (the toaster oven story was a plan b temp check).
I never responded until she sent me an apology, 100% unsolicited, with no guarantee that I would accept the apology. Seriously, I ingored her for nearly an entire year. An "I'm sorry." by itself was not going to cut it.
So are temp checks good? They're not good or bad. You just have to know what they are and what the intent behind them is, as well as how you should respond (or not).
Hmm. Okay, thanks Joe. In my opinion they basically seem bad then, in terms of showing real hope for progress with your spouse, since the drivers (control or plan B) are both negative and not basis for building a healthy relationship again. Although... I guess if they temp check and don't get the response they wanted, it could catalyze them changing their behavior. So you're right then, not good or bad per se, just have to know what to do and see whether it impacts anything or not.
Today was decent. I've been pretty good at putting my H's actions into perspective as if I was a third party, like I just suggested burned do on his thread. I think me doing all the "right" things in terms of not being vindictive and nasty and knowing I'm doing everything I can to save the marriage is paying off at least a little bit, here. It's starting to give me the teeniest peace of mind that no matter what they are doing, they look kinda crazy and stupid while I'm over here surviving and doing the best I can to be loving and committed and as healthy a person as I can possibly be in a time like this. Even when I don't feel good about everything and that none of that matters, I still know it's true. That's the good thing about having integrity!
I've also not given in to checking anything anymore despite all that stuff that sent me into a spiral the other day (I know it's only been probably exactly one full day, maybe two). I've definitely wanted to but I am getting more and more bought-in and committed to building my mental strength through ignorance of his world. I can tell how it does help me detach.
I have felt pretty lonely and purposeless, in general. Just not super "excited" about anything and still wishing I had H here to share things with. But I'm not distraught, and I know I've been here before and have come crashing down again before and I probably will again...but let's see how long I can sail for now
Will be getting ready for my trip on Sunday and we'll see how that impact things! Looking forward to it (again, I wouldn't say "excited" because I do have a healthy dose of anxiety to go with it too).
T,
Do you know how I was able to determine if my WW was temp checking me? With some guidance from this board, I learned that any "praise", "checking in", "wanting to just talk", "have dinner with the family", and so on is just the WS gauging how you would react if they did any of the above.
Just remember the responses you need to give if they ask or tell you:
Praise - "Thanks!"
Checking on you - "Great!" or "I'm good"
Wanting to just talk - Keep it as short as possible and you end the conversation first.
Have dinner with the family - Don't. This was one cake-eating stunt my WW pulled on me two weeks ago. It was after I saw Sandi's response basically stating that the WS is basically keeping you hooked as a plan B when she pulls this.
I'm sure folks can provide other examples of temp checking, but the bottom line is the same - They're checking how attached you still are to them.
Just adding on to Phoenix's post, the "I just wanna talk" messages came to me aplenty. At first I fell for it. It never ended well, which led to my strict NC boundaries. She would continue to send me the "Can I have one minute?" Or "It's important, it will just take a moment" messages for a while.
I didn't respond to those because:
A) If it's THAT important, put it in the message.
B) If it will only take a minute, put it in the message.
I would not be concerned with not getting temp checked. I think you know you just need to push forward with the process. It's actually easier with less interaction.
I know you miss him, but he's not the same person anymore. And TBH, when this is all over you won't be the same person anymore either. You'll be a smarter, wiser, stronger, and more confident version of you.
TJT.
Great post on Burn’s thread. I can tell you are doing a lot of thinking and you give great advice and have a really good handle on things. It is amazing how clearly we see things in other people’s sitchs but struggle to do the things we know we need to do in our own. I know that even though my PMA is improving at a good pace, I have been pretty bad at DBing. I’ve initiated way too many R discussions and I feel that a few things I’ve done pushed my H to move forward at a faster pace than he might have if I had just gone NC (as much as possible with kids anyway) and just given him the space to do his own thing. Have you read the quotes threads? There are some real gems on there...including the quote from AS about the stages the LBS goes through. I found it really helpful and am striving to make it to stage 9 by then end of this year. Whether the other stages happen in my sitch is irrelevant because I know i will be okay by the time I really get to 9 anyway. You will be too. Just like Joe says... you will be a smarter, wiser, stronger and more confident version of you. I can’t wait to read your posts in a year. You will truly be AWOAFWL.
Thanks everyone.
I really don't see my H ever reaching out to me "just to talk". That kind of seems out of character for him even before all this. Not that he hasn't gotten good at surprising me! But I think that's part of the problem, and why I really fear even if he regrets this that he won't tell me. He avoids and buries/internalizes. And I get that that's not the kind of person I want to be with anyway if he hasn't fixed that.
So I guess ultimately if he does reach out to talk, I would take that as a change in itself .. and tread slowly, but definitely at least to see where he's going with it, keeping in mind what to do if it turns into something that's just a temp check vs. an actual meaningful conversation.
I'm interested to see what differences there may be (if any) between temp checks from H's and those from W's.
I do miss him, tons. I am starting to feel like it is more of death, at least for this moment. For example, there's a blanket he used to use that I haven't washed, and I used it the other day and could smell him on it. At first I thought this would be bad bad bad! Wash it away! But it actually didn't both me too much. I was sad about it but not like upset in desperation that I didn't have him close to me. I guess it was a low key acceptance of sorts. Or maybe just a way for me to feel like I still had part of him? That's an interesting thought...
I will try to just keep being mindful of what's bothering me or holding me back and what's not, and if stuff like that starts to mess with my head I will take care of it.
DV, I like to acknowledge that while it's easy for me to give advice to others, I still don't know all the exact details and behaviors that went on in everyone's Rs. We only know what's posted here and what we can read into from that. So I like to think I had valid points, but that element of context is also what makes it difficult for me to apply it to myself... when you take things at face value everything seems pretty simple, but knowing all the nuances of my own sitch, I can justify things a million different directions until I'm just dizzy and don't know which way is up anymore and become thoroughly confused.
I guess this is where it would nice to be the type of person that just has a total zero tolerance for things like cheating and could actually feel good about walking away just for that reason. Sure it makes me feel like a good person to have empathy for what H may be going through and still value him as a person even if he makes mistakes or goes a little crazy, but I know we all put ourselves at a level of risk being that gracious, too. Such a fine balance.
Anyway... about to go do some "me" stuff to prep fro my trip today. Glad I have some things to keep me busy!
I'm interested to see what differences there may be (if any) between temp checks from H's and those from W's.
I think this is mostly a personality type thing. Its seems I see on here a lot more WWs than WHs doing temp checks. But in my sitch, that's not the case as I haven't had a single temp check from W. I think it's just different, and I don't/wouldn't put too much stock in if it "means" anything.
I think it also has to do with the persuit/distance dynamic (
this thread). Many times women are the persuers, but certainly not always. My W is not, she would lean more towards a distancer.
At least it's easier on us to not have a rollercoaster if they don't temp check. I'll take that as a benefit.
Someone is asking me what does MFS stand for?
Anyone able to tell me?
Someone is asking me what does MFS stand for?
Anyone able to tell me?
I think Yail or TJT came up with it. Basically when the LBS is tired of being left behind they become the moving forward spouse (MFS).
EDIT: Looks like burned coined the term.
A term I invented when Yail pointed out that LBS implies being a victim, like the other person has power over us. MFS=moving forward spouse.
Someone is asking me what does MFS stand for?
Anyone able to tell me?
This is why I despise acronyms. They never help clarify anything and almost always add confusion, especially to the newbies.
Sorry Cadet and R2C! We were having some fun, but didn't mean to cause confusion.
I blame burned
(KIDDING!!)
It was such a good one we couldn't pass it up .
Sorry Cadet and R2C! We were having some fun, but didn't mean to cause confusion.
I blame burned
(KIDDING!!)
It was such a good one we couldn't pass it up .
I thought it was rated R....
We are mega fancy superheroes!
The mucho-fun spouses.
I don't speak spanish, I don't know if that even makes sense!
Mucho-fine spouses?
Because I know I am
PMA
Sorry Cadet and R2C! We were having some fun, but didn't mean to cause confusion.
I blame burned
(KIDDING!!)
It was such a good one we couldn't pass it up .
No problem - thanks for telling me, I can pass it along to some other vets now.
Hey everyone. Loved seeing this thread about MFS, I was wondering when that question would come and also sorry for the confusion especially since I labeled my entire thread with it, haha. Thanks for the reinforcement while I was GALing my heart away!
I'm back from my vacation now but double sad because in addition to having to come back to reality I caught a cold at the tail end of the visit. My friends I was with had just gotten over the same thing and it was getting passed along apparently, ugh.
Aside from that, I had a GREAT time. As expected, even though I was anxious beforehand, pushing myself to do it was the best thing. It did cost more money than I wanted it to but I think given everything going on in my life, it was priceless. It seemed I was somewhat... and I stress "somewhat"... at peace with my situation, moreso just living my life and not worrying about anything else. In a way I guess I was just distracted but I really do think the feeling will be carrying over. At least I hope. We did talk about my H a bit but it was in a productive way (not distracting from our vacation).
Met a few other people where we were at. One of them was a group of guys who were married but also simultaneously seeming to hit on us, while telling us their wives just ran off with some other guys (weird story after which we immediately got up and left). Then we did make a friend with one of the staff members at the hotel we were at who was super super nice and simply appreciated that we took the time to get to know him vs. just heckling for drinks and food all the time. It was my friend's birthday and at the end of our stay he got both of us a souvenir shirt as a gift. It just gave me warm fuzzies.
I did really miss being on a nice vacation with a partner, seeing all the other cute couples and imagining what they were talking about at dinner, or being able to take in a romantical view while leaning on someone's shoulder, or going back to your room to have some one on one time in paradise... haha. I definitely had one of the bigger moments of sadness just thinking about the whole intimacy part again and how much I miss the familiarity of my H and how that is going to be my biggest hurdle with someone new.
In other news, 100% completely not planned, my friend was posting things to her SM and as soon as she posted a picture that included me, she noted that my H started viewing every single story thereafter. He saw all the stories she posted with me in them. He doesn't normally view her stories so this was very interesting... and I know I shouldn't read into it but honestly, I feel like this is in my favor, in terms of what it says about what could be going on in H's mind. There are a few motivations I could see for him keeping tabs on me, but I have to say that I think the most realistic of them is that he still cares about what I'm doing. Maybe he misses me, or wanted to see if I was there with another guy, etc. I don't know for sure if he knows that we can see when he views her story...
My friend's friend actually proposed I take a picture with her H as if it was a guy I was with, but A) I don't want to be fake about things and portray something that's not true, like me moving on/having fun with another guy, and B) I don't want to do things just for a reaction out of my H (trying to make him jealous and want me back) because we know that probably wouldn't work anyway and would only be to satisfy that 15 minutes of vengeance. So I didn't do that, but the bottom line is he was checking, and I feel good that I have some kind of validation that he's not totally unconcerned with me and must still has SOME kind of feelings in there. And that in all the pics I was smiling and having fun with my friend... and maybe it added more mystery that he didn't know who was all there, or who was taking our pics the whole time.
I also know he acted like part of his goals after separation was to try to travel more and "be happier" and blah blah blah, like I was holding him back from those things somehow, so I do wonder how it sits with him that I was able to go on this nice trip with my friend and he wasn't there. Maybe he just wondered how I got the money for it (for the record, I used miles for the ticket and shared a room)... or maybe he was just like "Ugh.. I regret everything. I want to go home to my W." Of course I'm going to go with the latter...
In all seriousness, while I am super curious as to what this "means", I feel much more stable about not totally knowing in this case because it's enough to me that he's putting energy into seeing what I'm doing. It helps me think more realistically about the fact that the "fantasy" life I envision H living in my head may not be all true. If we was over me, why would he be checking? I don't see anything related to logistics of the D that would matter here, especially since he hasn't seemed to be concerned about actually getting the filing done to begin with.
So I also determined I need to go on vacation more often (this was legitimately the first actual vacation aside from visiting family that I've taken in a few years), which then reminds me of everything I'm stuck throwing money into right now by myself and frustrates me
. But it also helped me look toward the future and give me some dreams of my own to work toward, in terms of what I will be able to do when all of this is sorted someday.
All in all, not a bad week... now I'm just hoping I don't come crashing to the ground as I get back into the swing of work and things, and can maintain the positive emotional progress... trying to be optimistic while also not getting TOO ambitious or setting too high of expectations for myself.
Oooh TJT lots of good stuff here.
It seemed I was somewhat... and I stress "somewhat"... at peace with my situation, moreso just living my life and not worrying about anything else. In a way I guess I was just distracted but I really do think the feeling will be carrying over. At least I hope. We did talk about my H a bit but it was in a productive way (not distracting from our vacation).
This was how I turned a corner. Distraction by something fun. It doesn't take the pain away, it's not denial. It's just the fact that you can simultaneously live your life while processing your grief. This is great.
My friend's friend actually proposed I take a picture with her H as if it was a guy I was with, but A) I don't want to be fake about things and portray something that's not true, like me moving on/having fun with another guy, and B) I don't want to do things just for a reaction out of my H (trying to make him jealous and want me back) because we know that probably wouldn't work anyway and would only be to satisfy that 15 minutes of vengeance.
Good on you. This is perfect - you shouldn't be making any fake news or try to push yourself into your H's mind. Your photos that your friend posted were organic and natural - that's fine. But anything in an attempt to solicit a reaction is inauthentic and will only cause problems. This will certainly backfire.
.. or maybe he was just like "Ugh.. I regret everything. I want to go home to my W." Of course I'm going to go with the latter...
Not yet. Don't do this. He isn't there, don't psyche yourself out to pretend that he is. He was likely curious, but NOT in a way that will change his mind right now. (remember: right NOW. The future is undetermined)
I'm so glad you had fun and it pushed you into a positive mentality. Just be careful thinking your H viewing your story "means" something. Right now it doesn't. Remember that. Not now. Maybe later. Right now you only need to concern yourself with the fact that you had fun and you want to figure out how to go on more awesome vacations!!
Oh wait, one more thing I forgot to mention. One thing I have ALWAYS struggled with on vacations is all of the other super beautiful women around. Even at times when I think I look good, it never fails that some knockout lady wearing next to nothing will come strutting around.
There was a LOT of this where we were at (even some topless sunbathing), and on one hand I was happy that I didn't have to worry about a partner oogling over someone like that. But I also can't figure out how to reconcile that anxiousness I get in those situations, because it WILL happen no matter who I'm with, at some point. There's always someone better looking, and smarter, and yadda yadda.
So, I know obviously commitment and respect is all part of this, and that the right person will help make me feel comfortable and respected in such situations... but regardless of that, I always always always think in my head that my partner must be wondering what it's like to be with that person. Sure they love me, but who wouldn't love that other person?? This happens to me when watching movies with a significant other as well. If there's a sex scene or topless woman, I immediately think welp, pretty sure they are wishing that was them right now, or that this woman is super hot and turning them on. I get really discouraged.
And no I can't even flip that around on myself because I've never been one to have like a "celebrity crush" or that one person I'd ask for a "hall pass" for. I hate that crap. Yes I can acknowledge when someone else is handsome or whatever, but I don't get any joy out of fantasizing about someone I don't even know. It's very personal to me, and I've thought about it a lot over many, many years and I can't figure out why I feel this way, while many others don't seem to care much. I mean ultimately it boils down to fear of not being good enough I guess, but I can't pinpoint why that's a thing for me... like if there's some unconscious thing going on from something I may have seen as a little girl or something, I really don't know. There's nothing obvious that I can attribute to it, and then I start to wonder am I truly wrong for feeling that way or is it maybe more normal than I think and other people just don't admit to it?
When I first found out about my H's PA, I went into overdrive researching if all men really fantasize about other women and if it's just a fact of life that I will need to get over. I read some things that reassured me that a good man doesn't do things like this, and a tonnnn of other things claiming that men literally can't control their eyes or their thoughts, that basically they don't even know they're doing it half the time, like a sneeze, and that the best I could ask for is a man who can at least control his actions beyond the looking/fantasizing. Cue allll of the biology reasoning, etc.
Essentially I think there's clearly a balance of my partner respecting me and making me feel safe in the relationship AND my own insecurities involved here. What's terrible about my sitch is that this existed well before my H and I met (I've felt this way my whole life as far as I can tell), and one of the things I loved about my H was that he did make me feel "safe" and as if he only wanted me.... and now that he is the one to have done what he's done, I know this fear/insecurity/uncomfortable nature I have in these situations is going to be amplified by 1,000 going forward. In that respect, I feel like I'm probably one of the worst people he could have done this to.
So that's kind of a downer post as compared to my initial update post, but it's really just a side note I wanted to dive into a little more and get insights on for the future, because that's always been very difficult for me in a relationship.
Oooh TJT lots of good stuff here.
It seemed I was somewhat... and I stress "somewhat"... at peace with my situation, moreso just living my life and not worrying about anything else. In a way I guess I was just distracted but I really do think the feeling will be carrying over. At least I hope. We did talk about my H a bit but it was in a productive way (not distracting from our vacation).
This was how I turned a corner. Distraction by something fun. It doesn't take the pain away, it's not denial. It's just the fact that you can simultaneously live your life while processing your grief. This is great.
Yes! I was so proud to have felt/realized that ("happy" doesn't quite seem like the right word).
.. or maybe he was just like "Ugh.. I regret everything. I want to go home to my W." Of course I'm going to go with the latter...
Not yet. Don't do this. He isn't there, don't psyche yourself out to pretend that he is. He was likely curious, but NOT in a way that will change his mind right now. (remember: right NOW. The future is undetermined)
I'm so glad you had fun and it pushed you into a positive mentality. Just be careful thinking your H viewing your story "means" something. Right now it doesn't. Remember that. Not now. Maybe later.
I know you're right about this. I'm right there with you, and even though of course I hope for it to mean something deep down, I said that somewhat facetiously. I have definitely just filed this in the "noted" folder for now. No further action from me, not further expectation from him. Just a fact of something that happened, and if it compounds into something down the line, so be it.
I just liked the actual fact that even if it means nothing about him wanting to be back together with me, I'm still taking up space in his consciousness - and I don't say that out of vanity, but rather it makes me feel more sane and again, that he IS still at least part human...a teeny tiny bit of human somewhere in that alien.
Your first 4 paragraphs - I'm referencing these.
Ok. This is SO strange for me because you have highlighted something I really identify and I've come to a conclusion recently and so...stay with me here.
This very well may not apply to you, so I apologize if I've misread what you're saying.
I felt this same way for a while. Like, wildly uncomfortable at other women being hotter and more comfortable with their bodies etc. As if it was about me being in competition. I'm super curvy, so in some clothing I feel great, but in a swimsuit...way too much curve when I compare myself to other women. And what I'm realizing for ME (maybe not for you, but consider this...) is that this is about me actually being uncomfortable with nudity/sexuality.
I was a Women's Studies minor, and I'm all about body positivity and women having full agency of their bodies. In THEORY. I'm realizing I may be a bit more conservative than I originally thought, because for me my discomfort comes from how I feel about the nudity - not how my partner might feel while standing next to me. I was projecting my own discomfort and insecurities. But I feel equally uncomfortable around naked men and naked women, so this may be different than what you're saying.
If you hypothetically went to a nudist beach with men would you feel the same anxiety? This may help you know if it's a jealousy question, or a nudity question.
Regarding your final 3 paragraphs: assuming monogamy, any partner should make you feel safe in that they will not stray. I know you feel like you'll carry PTSD with you in your future Rs, but I don't think you will. Not if you process it in a healthy way now. So just remember that you'll be at that trusting place again. And you and your partner can walk by all the stupidly hot people in the world and not even bat an eyelash.
Oh wait, one more thing I forgot to mention. One thing I have ALWAYS struggled with on vacations is all of the other super beautiful women around. Even at times when I think I look good, it never fails that some knockout lady wearing next to nothing will come strutting around.
There was a LOT of this where we were at (even some topless sunbathing), and on one hand I was happy that I didn't have to worry about a partner oogling over someone like that. But I also can't figure out how to reconcile that anxiousness I get in those situations, because it WILL happen no matter who I'm with, at some point. There's always someone better looking, and smarter, and yadda yadda.
So, I know obviously commitment and respect is all part of this, and that the right person will help make me feel comfortable and respected in such situations... but regardless of that, I always always always think in my head that my partner must be wondering what it's like to be with that person. Sure they love me, but who wouldn't love that other person?? This happens to me when watching movies with a significant other as well. If there's a sex scene or topless woman, I immediately think welp, pretty sure they are wishing that was them right now, or that this woman is super hot and turning them on. I get really discouraged.
And no I can't even flip that around on myself because I've never been one to have like a "celebrity crush" or that one person I'd ask for a "hall pass" for. I hate that crap. Yes I can acknowledge when someone else is handsome or whatever, but I don't get any joy out of fantasizing about someone I don't even know. It's very personal to me, and I've thought about it a lot over many, many years and I can't figure out why I feel this way, while many others don't seem to care much. I mean ultimately it boils down to fear of not being good enough I guess, but I can't pinpoint why that's a thing for me... like if there's some unconscious thing going on from something I may have seen as a little girl or something, I really don't know. There's nothing obvious that I can attribute to it, and then I start to wonder am I truly wrong for feeling that way or is it maybe more normal than I think and other people just don't admit to it?
When I first found out about my H's PA, I went into overdrive researching if all men really fantasize about other women and if it's just a fact of life that I will need to get over. I read some things that reassured me that a good man doesn't do things like this, and a tonnnn of other things claiming that men literally can't control their eyes or their thoughts, that basically they don't even know they're doing it half the time, like a sneeze, and that the best I could ask for is a man who can at least control his actions beyond the looking/fantasizing. Cue allll of the biology reasoning, etc.
Essentially I think there's clearly a balance of my partner respecting me and making me feel safe in the relationship AND my own insecurities involved here. What's terrible about my sitch is that this existed well before my H and I met (I've felt this way my whole life as far as I can tell), and one of the things I loved about my H was that he did make me feel "safe" and as if he only wanted me.... and now that he is the one to have done what he's done, I know this fear/insecurity/uncomfortable nature I have in these situations is going to be amplified by 1,000 going forward. In that respect, I feel like I'm probably one of the worst people he could have done this to.
So that's kind of a downer post as compared to my initial update post, but it's really just a side note I wanted to dive into a little more and get insights on for the future, because that's always been very difficult for me in a relationship.
I never oogled other women or fantasized about other women. All my desire and focus was on my WW. I was very attracted to my W and always told her that she was the most beautiful woman in the world to me. That was one positive trait i had in the MR. I honestly would have sex dreams only about my W.
That has stopped fortunately. I simply was not attracted to other women because i truly only desired my W. I never even considered it. Besides my many flaws I was absolutely loyal. Obviously to a fault.
Thanks SoTorn, I need to be reminded that men like you are out there! I also empathize with being too loyal, apparently. Without sounding arrogant, I do feel like true loyalty is hard to come by and if nothing else, they will come to miss that when they realize most other people have conditions attached to them.
Yail, I think I am half and half when it comes to what you said about the sexuality/nudity thing. When I think about seeing naked men, or even just an attractive man, it definitely does not give me the same anxiety as when there's women around. If anything I keep hyper aware that maybe the person I'm with (like my H) may feel inferior (like I would in his shoes) and thus I try harder not to look or do anything that would give him the impression I care. I don't even like to talk with girlfriends about how hot a guy is if I'm in a relationship at the time. It seems superficial and dumb if I'm not looking for someone new.
That being said, even WITH my H (or anyone I can imagine being intimate with) I do have pretty clear sexual limits. To put it simply, I am pretty traditional. I like being sexy/sexual and pleasing my partner, but I feel "yucky" about anything that's more "experimental" in the bedroom.
I think, after saying this, it may have more to do with objectification? Since I value a deep, loving bond and relationship with someone, anything that makes me feel like something is purely for the sexual pleasure (even if I know that person loves me) feels terrible, whether it's someone admiring someone else from afar or me doing something I'm uncomfortable with in the bedroom just to be "wild" for someone. That does not equal love to me, so it makes me feel bad. This also makes sense because I DETEST p0rn. I cannot stand it if I know my partner watches that stuff. It makes me feel like I'm not enough and I mean, come on, the idea of someone you love watching other people in sexual acts has always been hurtful to me. I also know it causes very real problems in relationships sexually for psychological reasons, and have had both family and friends talk about major issues as a result. So, yeah.
At some point in our M my H got comfortable and sexy time was instigated with very deliberate "signals", and even though he would text me things like "good morning beautiful", other daily/informal affirmations face to face really didn't happen, at least not like they did early on when we were dating. And I didn't feel super bad about that or like he didn't find me attractive anymore, but I don't think he realized how much his continued affirmations would have helped me feel even more comfortable around him sexually.
I also think of things like why he didn't put in effort to suggest things to me, like lingerie he would have liked to see me in. I honestly wondered one day if he even knew my bra size (guys should know that about their Ws right?) Again he never vocalized any specific issue with our sex life, so finding the Victoria's Secret credit card in his wallet from OW (and obviously the fact that he had a PA to begin with) was just another deep blow to my self esteem in an area I was already self conscious about where I figured okay, maybe I'm not enough for him.
I DID always make sure we were "engaging" because I knew at the very least I did not want him to go without, so we absolutely did not have a sexless marriage. It just wasn't "wild and crazy" like I'm sure OW tries to be (her XBF seemed to validate that she tries hard to get that kind of attention) Although P.S. VS is super basic and overhyped in my opinion...there is much better quality stuff elsewhere, but it's the "cool" brand... if you're a teenage girl (sorry to any other ladies here who may like it haha).
As with the rest of our M, I feel in the dark about what he really wants since he has not communicated well with me on anything, except to now say he wasn't happy. And this is why I feel like some of the "problems" he saw could be so easily addressed, if he could just fix his bigger problem of communicating clearly and not avoiding everything.
So to come full circle with what you said, Yail, hopefully whoever the next person is (even if it's H 2.0) will realize the importance of that communication with me and I won't feel so apprehensive about this stuff. And I will have to learn to trust people again that what they say/do to me is what they mean, and won't do what H did.
My side note officially turned into its own topic, oops.
I have cycled in and out of feeling the way you do around my own sexuality. I say "sexuality" and not "sex" because I'm coming to realize my own power in framing it that way.
I've been very removed from sex in the past. To varying degrees I've always taken the back seat in that I never owned the fact that I was an active participant. I'm very much the kind of person who lives in my own head (I suspect you are as well), and from an academic/Women's Studies standpoint I too have a lot to say against objectification of bodies. Sex was something that happened in my life, and I was happy about that.
The past few weeks I've really considered and thought about my own sex life, since it is currently non-existent. I realized I never was in the driver's seat with my own desires. Not to say we wouldn't have the "what do you want?" conversations, but most of the time I just came up blank with answers. I didn't have anything specific in mind I was holding back on, but I never allowed myself to fantasize, or dream of anything outside of very specific parameters. I never thought about anyone else except W.
So since I'm in no-sex land, it kind of hit me like a ton of bricks that I am the only one in charge of my own sex life. What was I doing with that power? Nothing! I treated sex like something important and enjoyed - but completely separate from me. That's not how I want to live my life. I want an active and healthy sex life.
So I'm honestly doing reading and research to see what I can do to create my own healthy views and dialogue around the fact that as a human I am a sexual creature. I'm enjoying Emily Nagoski and Dan Savage - to me both feel very authentic and sex-positive.
Regarding the "yucky" feeling. My mind was opened by listening to Dan Savage (the famous sex advice columnist). He has some YouTube videos, but I don't think I'm allowed to specifically link on this forum. In one of them he talks about a Venn Diagram of what each partner wants to do in the bedroom. And if you only ever do what you both WANT to do, you will likely have a small overlap. But if you consider things that you are ambivalent to - but you do them for your partner - reports of sexual and relationship satisfaction go up. This is NOT anything that makes you feel shame, or fear, or anything negative. Just things you would not normally be into. Something to turn around in your brain.
I say this because:
I also think of things like why he didn't put in effort to suggest things to me, like lingerie he would have liked to see me in.
.
So, what did you suggest to him? What was your part of the Venn Diagram that didn't overlap with his? Where was your ownership of your own sex life? It sounds like you are like me - it happens, but what do you feel you have to contribute aside from following your partner's lead?
So to come full circle with what you said, Yail, hopefully whoever the next person is (even if it's H 2.0) will realize the importance of that communication with me and I won't feel so apprehensive about this stuff.
I think you need to as well. I think there are things that you'd really be into that are maybe not identified yet - and they may be subtle! - but you'll have to identify them with words so you can also communicate that to your partner.
Lastly, for fun:
I honestly wondered one day if he even knew my bra size (guys should know that about their Ws right?)
I'm going to go with "no". I have no idea what size W wore. And I doubt she knew mine. I'm a woman, I should be tuned into this stuff! But not a clue. I don't know if most men know their W's sizes. Curious now!
So I'm honestly doing reading and research to see what I can do to create my own healthy views and dialogue around the fact that as a human I am a sexual creature. I'm enjoying Emily Nagoski and Dan Savage - to me both feel very authentic and sex-positive.
Yeah, I'm interested in this too to see if it would "help". I have moments of feeling "sexual" as a person but I would say by and large, I could take it or leave it *shrug*. I've also been on BC for years which I know doesn't help with that. But it has never prevented me from doing it, it has just meant I'm content with whatever happens, no matter how simple, and like you I have never had this desire to do anything different.
Regarding the "yucky" feeling. My mind was opened by listening to Dan Savage (the famous sex advice columnist). He has some YouTube videos, but I don't think I'm allowed to specifically link on this forum. In one of them he talks about a Venn Diagram of what each partner wants to do in the bedroom. And if you only ever do what you both WANT to do, you will likely have a small overlap. But if you consider things that you are ambivalent to - but you do them for your partner - reports of sexual and relationship satisfaction go up. This is NOT anything that makes you feel shame, or fear, or anything negative. Just things you would not normally be into. Something to turn around in your brain.
Interesting concept, I will think about this more.
So to come full circle with what you said, Yail, hopefully whoever the next person is (even if it's H 2.0) will realize the importance of that communication with me and I won't feel so apprehensive about this stuff.
I think you need to as well. I think there are things that you'd really be into that are maybe not identified yet - and they may be subtle! - but you'll have to identify them with words so you can also communicate that to your partner.
Agreed. This is one area I've felt "shy" about, if that's even the right word, because it doesn't feel natural for me to do. I will also say I had tried to tell H a few times when he was doing something that was not working for me, and per usual with feedback, he took it personally, got upset and it would ruin the mood (after he BDed I told him this directly, as he would tell me he wanted better communication which was super ironic to me).
So I stopped giving feedback because I didn't want to make him upset. Nevertheless, you're right that I could have started a conversation and I did think about talking to him many times about some of my minor wants. I think I just figured I'd get the same response as I do with everything else, which was typically that everything was fine...and I was afraid that making my own suggestion about something I wanted would come off as critical, and it wasn't really worth that for me.
I honestly wondered one day if he even knew my bra size (guys should know that about their Ws right?)
I'm going to go with "no". I have no idea what size W wore. And I doubt she knew mine. I'm a woman, I should be tuned into this stuff! But not a clue. I don't know if most men know their W's sizes. Curious now!
You're probably right about this. I won't expect it in the future
I just wonder how some people buy their Ws lingerie without knowing what size they are!? That being said I think I might prefer to be the buyer anyway..maybe with input.
In fact I did exactly that after BD but before I found out about A (and clearly before I was DBing)...sent him a text of something I bought and wasn't sure if he would be open to it (stupid me) thinking maybe he would see I was trying and it would help our relationship. Of course he was raring to go and took full advantage. Later when everything came to light and I pointed out that I was trying to "do better" (sad) he did the whole "too little too late" thing. Funny he didn't say that at the time!!
I also think it's important to note... when me and H first started seeing each other, I found a DVD in his house of him and another woman. Obviously it was traumatizing to see and we talked at length about how uncomfortable I was that he still had this, why he still had it, that I was uncertain of whether he'd be happy with me because I wasn't "that kind of girl" who would make home movies (and act super p0rn star about it like this girl did). He reassured me that it wasn't like that and he would get rid of it..
AND THEN I found he still had it a little while later, so I confronted him AGAIN super POed and he made some excuse about how he was going to give it to her to keep and I was like WTF?? No! He got really upset that I was so upset and broke it into pieces in front of me in the trash. I felt he was genuine and just a dumb guy that didn't get why it was a big deal, so after that I was satisfied.
Probably for a few years after that it was hard to get out of my head. I would always wonder how I was comparing, etc. (because how can you not when you've literally seen your SO with someone else). It eventually became less of a thing for me and I got to a point where I didn't really think about it except on occasion.
Man, I've really put up with/gotten through a lot from my H since day 1. I've always known it but writing it out just solidifies it. I can't really think of anything I've done as bad as some of things I've had to get through with him. I'm sure I'm frustrating on many days but the level of commitment and resilience I've had to have with him is actually amazing. And highlights how sad it is that he can't see how much love and loyalty is there. I know at one point he recognized it (like earlier on when he really was trying to solidify our relationship) and was happy I "gave him a chance" (he wrote this to me many times in letters), but that A amnesia must be strong stuff..
I was almost going to say that I hope I'm not masking my own stupidity as loyalty. But I refuse to be that hard on myself. Maybe other people would have saw that as a red flag and ran but I believed my H really cared for me and ultimately he did all the right things to where I thought continuing on with him was reasonable (I didn't make it easy either), and there was nothing that continued after that initial rough start that was concerning. It was like once we both realized we were serious about each other, we were good.
Anyway I've been holed up all weekend with the flu I'm pretty sure. Everyone on my trip was getting sick toward the end. Had a temp last night of 100.1 and my head is killing me, so just sitting here trying to stay comfortable, watching a little football (in small doses so it doesn't remind me too much of H) and trying to prep for a new work week tomorrow after vaca AND flu... ugh.
I guess I am one of the few men that actually knew what size his W wore in clothes. I would go shopping with her often and help her pick clothes.
I agree that you MUST talk about what you like and you do not like in the bedroom. I was very vocal about trying new things. One thing for certain is that sex in my MR was not an issue at all. I hear all these horror stories about W who cheat and then berate their husband by telling them that the OM was so much better.
I did a lot of reading in my MR on how to keep the spice up in the bedroom and that worked. I am glad that the unhappiness didn't come from lack of sex in my MR.
My therapist advises there is nothing abnormal and it is indeed healthy I continue to fantasize about my W.
Against this advice, I am trying not to (often unsuccessfully). Continuing to do so just makes it harder for me to detach.
I hope you feel better, TJT. We had stomach bug / flu ravage the Bo household 2nd part of this week. The kids seem to be relatively spared so far, gratefully.
I’ll comment here, and if you want to reply on my thread, please do so I don’t hijack this.
W has mentioned to me in the past that she wanted more frequency / variety of sex / acts over the course of our marriage. For whatever reason, this is an area I’ve struggled with until her initial BD’ing back in February. W and I are / were both virgins when we got MR’d, but over the last couple of years she’s especially been going through a sexual awakening (she’s also gotten into ‘50 Shades of Gray,’ FWIW—either it’s been helpful, or it may have contributed to our present sitch, not sure).
She would ask me about what I would want from her in terms of sex / acts, but also what to wear, and I’ve given her some answers. But she’s also wanted me to think about things more and do some research, and I did, before BD’ing. Admittedly, it would be hard for me to talk about (we never really talked much about sex growing up, and I’m more of a traditional / conservative Catholic, so I’m sure both at least somewhat play a role), but I thought I was improving, at least somewhat. This is something I tried to 180 on for her over the spring / summer, but in the fall she said that I wasn’t improving (of course, this could also be typical WAS speak, that nothing I do is ever good enough, it’s too little too late, etc.)
One thing I’ve also struggled with, but have become much better about, is my own body positivity. It’s been difficult for me to open up about my body and take pride in my body, even though I teach to my students that we are created body AND soul, and as Catholic Christians, we must remember that both are created ‘good.’ One thing that has helped is my losing 30 lbs over the last couple of years—I went from around 210 in early 2016, to currently around 180-ish (and a little below) right now. In terms of goal-setting, and body image, I feel fantastic. This is the most (or least?) I’ve weighed since grad school, and I’ve done most of this through scaling back my portions, eating fewer carbs, more meat and veggies (always been good about eating my veggies), eating more full-fat dairy (seriously—take a look at ‘regular’ vs ‘reduced-fat’ dairy products in terms of ingredients), drinking more water. Not much in terms of working out—which W would ask me about when I would tell her about my progress. I would say ‘hey today is a new low in terms of weight,’ and she would often respond with something about when am I going to start working out—even though she is correct, it is kinda hard to feel supported, and I probably should have communicated that better. I do realize that working out is important, and am trying to be more intentional about that now, as part of GAL and 180ing. I really like my body shape right now; the only things I really am not too big on are my thinning blonde hair up top (try to cut it short to make it look as good as I can), and my pecs have always been kinda big, which makes me feel awkward. But even this morning, as I dressed for church and to take OS to Mass / Sunday school, I looked at myself in the mirror, shirtless, wearing dark blue jeans, a day or two worth of stubble on my face and my hair still relatively short—and I thought to myself, I look pretty freaking good, all things considered. It took until my mid-30s, but I finally feel proud of my body.
I just wish I had someone to give it to right now—currently things are in an SSM, and I get the feeling that things are going to be this way, for a while. I know I’ll survive, even though it is difficult, but I know I need to keep the positive gains body-wise improving, and I’m sure that one day someone will notice and also realize that I’m worthy (I am coming better to terms with my own worthiness in that regard).
Thanks Bo, I think I'm on the upswing today, knock on wood!
No worries about sharing your story here. It's all on the same topic. I'm glad that you are pushing through from a self-esteem/body positivity standpoint. I've always been relatively fit, although H and I both got a little "soft" after M, but nothing drastic. However, I've also ALWAYS been self-conscious of my body. It's weird because I've always thought I looked good in a general sense, but when I am in a vulnerable position all I can think about are the things that aren't perfect. I even look back of pictures of myself in high school when I was clearly very svelte and I wonder what the heck was I thinking back then when I thought I needed to lose weight! haha.
All of this to say that I think for me, I just needed a little more validation from my H to feel a little more confident all around. I think he was comfortable with me and didn't think twice about making sure I felt secure as a woman, and if I ever shared insecurities with him he would brush it off rather than validate. I did talk to him about that kind of thing (he would do that with almost everything - if I was sick, stomach hurt, stubbed my toe, whatever). I just accepted it as part of his personality and because I felt secure with him as a person I didn't really make it a bigger deal. As I've mentioned before, I was also always hyper aware of not being a "naggy" wife, and I found it really difficult with my H to figure out where the line was between me simply communicating and him perceiving it as complaining or criticism.
As far as other stuff goes, I have to say it sounds like you were responding and putting in the effort. Based on your short anecdote, I have to agree that it seems like WAS excuses. Not that there may not have still been room to improve, but I just don't think someone walks away from a spouse because of that, especially when you seemed to be more than open and willing to try. It even sounds a little MLCish.
I personally don't get the whole Fifty Shades of Grey thing... out of boredom the other day I finally watched the movie, and it just seemed really weird and the guy was an A-hole with mommy problems! I hear the books may be a little better. Anyway, I can respect your W or any woman for wanting to experiment, even though it's not particularly my thing, but I can't see myself leaving someone even if there were things I wanted a little more of. Unless she hated sex with you for a long time and never said anything, or things deteriorated over time to a state she didn't like... it sounds like there may be many other things accompanying this "awakening" that are affecting her.
But I will reiterate how great it is that you are feeling good about yourself physically now. I've noticed since my H left that I look at my pictures and can't seem to see straight whether I look good or not. Sometimes this was in comparison to OW, but it got to the point where I would look at a picture and just not think of myself as pretty anymore! It wasn't until I went on my vaca last week that I realized I do still look good, and I think better than OW, AND that I'm going to keep going in improving my physical health, too, to make absolute SURE of it. Divorce diet definitely helps, I lost 8 lbs no problem when all this started.
Like you said though, it's very hard to be content with that when you don't have anyone around to appreciate it, just like everything else in life! I was reminded earlier of more things that I didn't like about my H, and it just doesn't do me any good because ultimately I come to the conclusion that those things didn't matter to me that much because he was enough for me as a whole. So then I just go back to being sad that I wasn't enough for him, and I know how much horse crap that is.
All of this to say that I think for me, I just needed a little more validation from my H to feel a little more confident all around. I think he was comfortable with me and didn't think twice about making sure I felt secure as a woman, and if I ever shared insecurities with him he would brush it off rather than validate. I did talk to him about that kind of thing (he would do that with almost everything - if I was sick, stomach hurt, stubbed my toe, whatever). I just accepted it as part of his personality and because I felt secure with him as a person I didn't really make it a bigger deal.
I had no problem calling my wife ‘beautiful’ or ‘sexy’ or anything like that.
Until the ILYBINILWY BD back in Feb. (and then I started up again once I felt like things were better), and I haven’t done that since late Oct. / early Nov—basically when she became pretty distant / b*tchy towards me. I haven’t said it since, and the same goes for the ILYs. Too much like pursuit. She won’t get it again until / unless she recommits to me and MR.
And the thing is is that I’ve had no problem no finding her attractive and saying something about it. When we first met, she weighed then about as much as I do now (I’m 6’1’’, she’s 5’5’’) and her teeth weren’t great at all—not to body-shame, but those are facts. She’s lost much of the weight, though still has some baby weight (but that’s expected), but her teeth still need some work (this sounds uncharitable, but I’ve often wondered if she splits 1. Who would help her pay for the work 2. Who would help her recover from the dental work 3. Good luck finding men who are into women with bad teeth). In spite of all that, I still found her fairly attractive, and sometimes even incredibly sexy at times. But right now? Attraction is not there, because it’s not just physical for me, it’s emotional and spiritual and who knows what’s going on spiritually, and things aren’t good emotionally with her.
Confessing ‘turn-ons’ and fantasies were a different story—hard at times, but I would do it, even it she kinda did have to drag it out of me.
As I've mentioned before, I was also always hyper aware of not being a "naggy" wife, and I found it really difficult with my H to figure out where the line was between me simply communicating and him perceiving it as complaining or criticism.
My W is the same way. Didn’t want to be ‘naggy,’ but to me it would come across as naggy / complaining / criticism. Not sure if a guy thing or what.
As far as other stuff goes, I have to say it sounds like you were responding and putting in the effort. Based on your short anecdote, I have to agree that it seems like WAS excuses. Not that there may not have still been room to improve, but I just don't think someone walks away from a spouse because of that, especially when you seemed to be more than open and willing to try. It even sounds a little MLCish.
I tried—probably not as much as she wanted, but I know I didn’t do NOTHING. I’ve wondered if there is some MLC going on here, especially with the pregnancy supposedly ‘robbing’ her of a chance for a work promotion. A former IC told me that MLCs can happen at pretty much any age, I guess including 30. At this point, it doesn’t really matter what the title is, it’s just what it is and I’ll need to deal as best as I can.
W had other things that she wanted me to work on (‘dealbreakers’): me being forgetful, opening up about sex, and finding something else other than NFP for birth control (but she went ahead and got the IUD over my objections so yeah...)
I personally don't get the whole Fifty Shades of Grey thing...
....Anyway, I can respect your W or any woman for wanting to experiment, even though it's not particularly my thing, but I can't see myself leaving someone even if there were things I wanted a little more of. Unless she hated sex with you for a long time and never said anything, or things deteriorated over time to a state she didn't like...
I never understood Fifty Shades of Gray, either, but I’m not the target audience, and I’ve always wondered how it squares with concerns about treatment / abuse of women, but whatever. Not my thing, I’m not the audience, and this isn’t the forum.
She told her a few times that she just wanted to be f*cked—probably just taken, 50 Shades-style. For me, it’s more difficult emotionally to be that spontaneous, though there were occasions where we’d get home to our previous townhouse, have our then-only son watch TV downstairs and she and I would have sex or fool around (have a quickie). That was great.
Last fall and early in to the winter, I started to open up more with experimenting. And then post-ILYBINILWY BD, we had a lot of sex. I’m sure being pregnant helped for her in that regard (though for some women I’m sure it doesn’t). One of the 180s for me was being more open to frequency / acts, so I made myself as available to her as I could, though I was also trying to take more leadership at home and with our only son at the time, as well as having a full teaching schedule (by early June, with everything I was mentally fried, but at least it was summer break for me so I could rest). I’d say we were probably getting after it every other day / 4 days a week, possibly more, as long as we both were in the mood. I started to let up on sex out of respect for her as weather got warmer in August / September and she got closer to the due date—I wouldn’t push her. We had sex a couple of days before YS was born, and then once in early November.....and that’s it.
She would often talk about how much she would love to have sex, and how much she would love to have sex with me (and how after drinking she would only want to get hand-sy and have sex with me—and that that handsiness would happen with only me and no one else).
I don’t think she hated sex with me....and if she did, it only became recent (probably post-pregnancy, I’d bet).
it sounds like there may be many other things accompanying this "awakening" that are affecting her
???? Ideas?
Hi TJT!
It's really easy to compare ourselves to the OP. After all they are one of the biggest reasons you're in your sitch, but honestly it's more about the WS than the OP. OP could have been anyone. A lot of the time the AP is a huge downgrade!!! It can be absolutely incomprehensible!
I did the divorce diet too. First couple weeks I lost 15 pounds. LOL! I used it to jump start some weight loss and started working out as part of my GAL. It was glorious. I felt great physically. Emotionally was still a work in progress but that can't be rushed. It took months of intense intents. Dropping the rope was hard. I kept picking it back up. Eventually, you will get there though. Start validating your own damn self. Don't compare yourself to the OW.
Set personal goals. Get things done. Even the small things, hell especially the small things. Could be something as silly as washing the dishes... But get it done. What's next? Oh yeah, take out the trash. What's next... Give the fur baby a bath! Next! Next! Next!
You can't rush this but one day you will wake up and go about your routine and it will HIT YOU. You feel sorta OK! And it gets better and better. Sure, there will be backsliding some, but it becomes less and less. Keep GAL! Keep your 180s!
Bo - the things I was thinking potentially affecting your W include depression, especially if you say a lot of her behavior happened after baby. May be other elements intertwined with that too and she is projecting on you.
Joe, thanks for the continued encouragement. I like the convincing and determined tone you always have. I'm definitely getting to that point of being like, "K let's drop the rope" and then I get two inches away from it and pick it back up. Or I'm turning my back to it but still keeping a toe on it, you know.
Getting things done does help. Keeping busy is a good tactic for me although sometimes I struggle with whether what I'm doing actually has meaning/usefulness or if it's just a temporary distraction. Not that the latter is all that bad... but I guess what I've been reflecting on is that a lot of people say to do things you wouldn't normally have done being "locked down" to your spouse or whatever. That we are now "free" to do whatever.
My thing is that I felt free WITH my H... anything I've ever not done during the time we've been together is still squarely on my shoulders and him not being around doesn't really hold the key to motivating me to do those things. It's things like energy or money or time (which you could say I have more OR less of, depending how you look at it). So I know that it's the perfect time to really look at myself and push past any excuses I've made in the past, but I always come back to the fact that it's a huge drag that I don't have my H to share anything with. I really 100% feel like he knew me better than anyone, even my family because I'm not very close with most of my family. We spent a lot of time just being around each other over almost 10 years.
So one of my gigantic fears now in life is that I will never find anyone again who simply understands/knows me fully. And I know in any case that if/when it is possible, I won't like that painstaking process of getting there; having to start over and someone learn my favorite color and pizza toppings and beers and how I react emotionally to the various scenarios we all encounter in life, etc. So frustrating, not to mention time wasting if you get halfway down the path before you realize you're not totally into that person, which then cycles me back to the pain of how something so incredibly valuable to me had seemingly no future value for H. No big deal, he just found another person mid-life and is now fulfilled.
I know, we all figure that won't last forever and all that. Of course I just have these visions of them loving everything about each other and thinking they are each others' soul mates. I do try to counter that by thinking of mundane things that surely they argue about occasionally. You know every couple has that first big fight... I want theirs to happen, but then for them to realize they each do a certain thing the other absolutely hates and doesn't want to put up with!
I was driving today (after going to the Dr. for feeling so crappy, and reflecting on being alone while sick) and thinking about how everyone says that grief never really goes away, it just starts to live deeper and deeper down within you or something like that. I got really upset about that, knowing that no matter how far past this I get, I will probably always, always remember this pain, and in all honesty always resent that this happened to me - unless we end up working through it together to create a freakin' bulletproof M 2.0, or something else groundbreakingly awesome happens to me besides H.
My thing is that I felt free WITH my H... anything I've ever not done during the time we've been together is still squarely on my shoulders and him not being around doesn't really hold the key to motivating me to do those things. It's things like energy or money or time (which you could say I have more OR less of, depending how you look at it). So I know that it's the perfect time to really look at myself and push past any excuses I've made in the past, but I always come back to the fact that it's a huge drag that I don't have my H to share anything with. I really 100% feel like he knew me better than anyone, even my family because I'm not very close with most of my family. We spent a lot of time just being around each other over almost 10 years.
Tough love time!
You're making excuses for not being motivated to do something new. I am an expert in this area in my own life.
Of course our S didn't control us - we weren't in abusive Rs. Of course it's all on us. You felt free, but we all make decisions considering what our significant other might think. It's natural. So what are you doing to do now that you don't need to "check" with anyone? You get to do something solely for yourself. Don't be sad about this!
Yeah, it's a drag to not have anyone to share your new exciting things with. Share them here. Text someone. I got new glasses yesterday and immediately text everyone because I look adorable
I would have asked W's opinion on the frames before purchasing before - most of us would have, I think. Such a tiny decision I made alone, and I really think these glasses reflect "me" very strongly.
You're focusing on your fears a lot, and I'm afraid it will start to paralyze you as you continue in your grief. I want you to get into some new habits before the fear-habits take over. Retrain your brain - don't let the sadness or regret take over with the path of least resistance.
Energy and time are resources you can work on. Money is tough, I'll acknowledge. So find ways to increase your energy. Cut back on any alcohol. Drink a ton of water. Eat very consciously, sleep. Keep a routine. Then take your energy and put it into an activity that had an excuse.
All of your feelings of fear or sadness are valid. I just want to see a splash of hope in your everyday life. The recent trip seemed to help, but I want you to grab something new now that you're back to normal life.
Ok everyone there's a situation kind of. (Yail I will still respond to your post later!)
I got a W2 from one of my H's workplaces. Since I already figured out we will have to file our taxes jointly, I texted him to let him know I got it and ask him how he wanted to go about getting the taxes done since we will either have to get on the phone or meet in person to get it all done. (Actually, I told him we will need to file jointly, he asked ME how I want to go about it, and I gave him those two obvious options).
In the process of this he says, again (like he did a few months ago, in November) that he would need some information from me to finish the "decree". This time I clarify with him if he means the petition. He said yes, and that he was going to use an online service to have it filed electronically.
I got into a pickle with him bringing this up again, since as you may recall earlier in this thread, I filed already. And paid for it. While I hadn't served him yet and technically he could very well file his own petition without any issue, I also didn't want to be out of the money I already spent (about $400).
So... I just told him that he didn't have to worry about it...that I already filed a petition and I could send him those papers and the other docs he needed to sign to move things forward.
After a pause he just texted back "ok". Then I also told him how much it cost and that if he wants to move forward with it that I'd like half of the cost I spent back. He said he would get it to me... then after another short pause he said he would try to cancel his service and get his money back.
First, I really don't know what info he thought he needed from me to fill out the petition to begin with, unless for some reason he wasn't clear on any property I wanted to list as my own property before the marriage... but that's literally the only thing he could possibly have had a question about. Otherwise the petition is pretty much all his info or straightforward answers to simple questions in our sitch.
Second, I fully realized that there was not really a purpose in his text about canceling his service except to make it known that he was inconvenienced by something I did. For the record his text was very, very simple, short, and not catty at all, but it's just the fact that he pointed it out that seemed irrelevant to me. And up to this point he only kept saying that "he was going to" use a service to file, and a few months ago when he said he might need info to complete it he obviously never followed up. Why would a man spend money on something and wait months to submit it?? So I just responded with "ok" (NOT "I'm sorry" or anything like that) and that I simply didn't know he already paid to do anything since I hadn't heard from him.
Anyway he just said "It's fine I'll cancel" and that was that. Then I reiterated for him to let me know what he wants to do for the taxes and when.
Okay, NOW, I am about to send to the petition I completed with the other paperwork to him, like I told him I'd do. But as I suspected I'm now feeling like I'm the one who's pushing this whole thing and I should have continued to wait for him to do it, whether I filed on my side or not. I guess I shot myself in the foot filing first because it made me have to push things a little once he brought it up again. I didn't consider that scenario when I first filed, I thought either he would reach out to me one day saying he filed on his side and I would just have to call it a wash that I had done it too, or he wouldn't do/say anything at all and I could just let him know I filed and to serve him the papers when I truly felt like it...
I mean at the end of the day he IS still going to have to fill out his portion of the paperwork and get it notarized and filed. On one hand I'm thinking, that still puts things in his court to where if he wants to continue stalling, he absolutely could. It's not like divorce is done just because I serve him papers. However, as I was fearful of in my "pros/cons" post earlier to filing, I do feel like the fact that he now knows I filed first may have him in this mindset of "oh, so I guess she wants to move forward with this so I feel better about doing what SHE wants" (total BS).
As a result of that I am feeling a LOT like I want to say something/reiterate that this is still NOT what I want to do. But I know I'm not supposed to do that... but I feel so so so SO terrible about sending this paperwork to him just like "here you go" without any other emotion about it.
I keep thinking of all the things he's done, that right now as we're texting he's probably like at dinner with OW or at home with her around and making googly eyes at her instead of me. I'm trying to think of the times when I've been GALing where I felt more okay than not without him. NONE OF IT HELPS. When it comes down to the reality of doing this I still do not want it. I want him to freaking realize he's having an idiotic meltdown of life and that he wants help and wants to be a family again. That's it! Is that so much to ask!!!?
So I have this e-mail drafted and I'm trying to stop myself from saying something other than what I need to say in it. In my mind I'm like "I'll just put one sentence like 'for the record I still don't want this' " but I know no matter how simple it is you all will tell me NO. But I can't feel good about it right now so I needed to write this out and get your reactions to maybe help me feel better about doing the right thing because here I am now in tears by the end of this post because I hate that this is my life and it's not just going to go away.
TJT, I'm so sorry you're facing this. I don't have any words of wisdom on your particular situation in this moment, but a few things I'd like to point out.
You're really doing well in handling this. You are so aware of the "why"s you are upset - very logical, very self-aware. No irrational anger, you can pinpoint exactly why you are frustrated and hurt. Don't discount this, because it is very difficult to think clearly when dealing with an emotional crisis. Your last sentence, "it's not just going to go away" and yet you understand you can't hide under a rock and ignore this - this is all really great. So please know you're doing a good job in a ____ situation.
I guess what I would say regarding the email is to be aware of your tone. You don't want to sound too short and dismissive, but you don't want to be fake-happy. You want to sound competent, and that the ball is in his court. Think "brief", but not "curt". Along the lines of, "You can find the info we talked about attached...." and maybe a sentence or two if anything needs logistical explanation.
He knows what he did, and he knows he asked to proceed. So the fact that you filed, in my opinion, does not have any impact on where this ends. He was reaching out to say that he was moving forward. This was not a temp check, this was him proceeding. I don't think in this moment there is any action you can take to stop this. It will have to all come from him.
Remember, he knows you don't want this. I know you're desperate to throw a hail mary pass, but I don't think you're in a space where it would do anything. Aside from being the first to fill out the forms, I think you can safely sit back and not prompt any additional steps from here on out. He will do what he will do.
Some people need to complete their process before realizing their mistake. Let him complete his process. In the meantime, you're doing work on your own process. Yours will be more fulfilling.
Some people need to complete their process before realizing their mistake. Let him complete his process. In the meantime, you're doing work on your own process. Yours will be more fulfilling.
Amen. Stay strong TJT. It’s not a temp check, but it is bait. He’s not getting the usual TJT reaction so he’s fishing. It ain’t over until it’s over.
Don’t tell him you don’t want it. Just take each step as it comes. Cold, rational, surgical. Hit the gym extra hard to cope.
Thank you Yail. I do agree my self-awareness helps me a lot. I just get stuck in trying to figure out the psychological process of my H, and therefore what the best response on my side will be ("best" meaning most effective).
What I mean by that is, I agree that his mentioning he will "need some information to complete the [petition]" is NOT a temp check, 500%. But I have a hard time seeing it as he was moving forward per se, on his own terms, because it was ALL talk up to this point. The fact that him filing was on his "to-do" list since back in MAY has me really confused, because he keeps saying he wants it and is "going to" but then nothing seems to happen.
To your point about him completing the process, I fear that he is not actually feeling that HE is completing the process (and that perhaps that may even be his goal, to wear me down or drag things out so long that I take action so HE doesn't have to feel guilty filing for D). A pretty irrelevant detail in the grand scheme of things, I know, but from what I know about my H he's all about rationalizing on "technicalities" to justify things, especially when he's feeling guilty.
So you're right, from here on out I can still sit back and let him complete his step or not. I just kind of feel like I just gave him the mental permission he needs to do it without feeling guilty or remorseful or whatever he would have had to process had I said nothing at all about it.
Also, with all the views of my recent trip, which obviously I felt somewhat good about, his mind could easily be running just like mine is and making even more things up that aren't even true, also to justify moving forward. For example, "Oh, W just went on an amazing trip with friends, was happy and smiling.. now she filed already, she must be moving on/happy meeting other people/etc."
So yeah, I know he knows I didn't want this, back when everything first happened. But even though he doesn't have solid PROOF otherwise, I'm afraid (as I've always been) that even if he did have second thoughts or had thought about maybe trying to get back together, he would give himself some self talk like "she doesn't care anymore and you'll only make a fool of yourself by trying to see if she'd consider reconciling" or "you've hurt her so bad, we could never recover even if I wanted to", etc.
I talked about this in my thread before and I can't remember where we ended up with it, but basically I feel like I need to amend the original "I don't want this" with "I don't want this, *and I'm always willing to talk to you about it even if we get divorced in the meantime; even if you do really terrible things, etc. etc."
Really I guess there's two things, in a nutshell:
1) I don't want him to use this to justify his actions/relieve his guilt, which in my mind could prevent him from actually facing emotions that COULD lead him to wanting to reconcile, or
2) I don't want him to get to a point where he feels he wants to reconcile (whether that's today or a year from now) but be too ashamed to tell me because he either thinks I would blow him off and it'd just be embarrassing, or perhaps give himself that self-talk that "he's not good enough" for me because of the things he's done, so even if he has worked on himself he will only have new relationships going forward rather than trying to mend ours.
I really wish that even after filling out of these forms we would both have to appear in court, but unfortunately that's not the case.. only the petitioner does. Goes back to that "processing", and I really wanted him to have to be the one to stand in front of a judge and state the case. I feel like that experience alone would have a lot of weight (I know it will for me!) Maybe I could somehow still ask him to be there (without it being like "please I'd like you to be there" obviously) but reality is all the paperwork he's signing says he won't have to be.
I have to leave for a work trip tomorrow again and I'll have some coworkers gals there that I'll be happy to see, but this just hangs over me everywhere I go and I'm still trying desperately to see the fulfilling part of my process
I'm also still not feeling 100% from being sick (it's taking forever). Not looking forward to traveling for that reason, although if I can admit something really sad, I almost enjoy being sick because it takes my mind off of "regular life" without H. I used to think the first time I got really sick I'd just be more sad that I don't have someone hear to help take care of me, but really that's more of an inconvenience than a loneliness thing. So instead I've realized that the inconvenience of me having to take care of myself is actually a good distraction, and I didn't mind being sick anymore as much. File under "more weird things you'll do/feel after being abandoned".
Amen. Stay strong TJT. It’s not a temp check, but it is bait. He’s not getting the usual TJT reaction so he’s fishing. It ain’t over until it’s over.
Don’t tell him you don’t want it. Just take each step as it comes. Cold, rational, surgical. Hit the gym extra hard to cope.
Burned! Nice to see you again. I know I haven't been that active for a short minute after my trip and I know everyone is kinda getting back into the swing of things after the holidays. Anyway, I am going to check your thread later tonight or tomorrow, depending (I'm still packing for tomorrow). In general, hope you're doing okay.
With regard to your comment, what do you think he's fishing for? I agree with you that it's something, I just can't place what.
Being sick has been driving me nuts because I haven't been able to work out or even do yoga (not an excuse, I've felt totally flu-like despite not having the flu apparently). I am packing gym clothes to hopefully get some blood pumping this coming week with my coworkers while we're staying at our hotel, and hoping I feel good enough to make it worth the while.
Long-term I have been thinking hard about how to come up with a plan to work out in a way that I like and can be consistent with. I won't get into all my issues now (I mentioned my bicep tendon issue briefly before) but regardless I know I need to figure something out so, that's definitely on my list of to-dos as I start getting my energy back (and stop traveling as much, I've kinda been on the road on and off for a month now too).
Ok, I think I'm seeing how you two fit together a bit clearer now. Not in a bad way! Just getting to know you and your personality and his a bit too.
Thank you Yail. I do agree my self-awareness helps me a lot. I just get stuck in trying to figure out the psychological process of my H, and therefore what the best response on my side will be ("best" meaning most effective).
and
but from what I know about my H he's all about rationalizing on "technicalities" to justify things, especially when he's feeling guilty.
It sounds like you two are playing mindgames right now. Want to know how to make it stop? Remove yourself from the game. Do not speculate where he is at or his motivations. Did you ever think you would be in this situation with him? No. Because this is not the man you married. He is someone else right now, so you have to stop guessing his end-game or his process.
I know you are feeling powerless in all of this, but you are not powerless. Doing nothing is a conscious action. Doing nothing is a choice. Doing nothing = doing something. So don't feel like you're just sitting back without control - what you are actually doing is removing yourself from the chaos with a "que sera sera" mentality.
So yeah, I know he knows I didn't want this, back when everything first happened. But even though he doesn't have solid PROOF otherwise, I'm afraid (as I've always been) that even if he did have second thoughts or had thought about maybe trying to get back together, he would give himself some self talk like "she doesn't care anymore and you'll only make a fool of yourself by trying to see if she'd consider reconciling" or "you've hurt her so bad, we could never recover even if I wanted to", etc.
I talked about this in my thread before and I can't remember where we ended up with it, but basically I feel like I need to amend the original "I don't want this" with "I don't want this, *and I'm always willing to talk to you about it even if we get divorced in the meantime; even if you do really terrible things, etc. etc."
Sorry, 2x4 here. Do you want a half of a husband? Because that's all these actions could lead to. Him coming back out of guilt or because it's easier. No. You want someone who actively chooses you. Is it a bit hard or uncomfortable for him to come back? GOOD. Because he needs to know that if he comes back to you he has to fight a bit for it because you are worth that, and your potential R is worth that. If H comes back it will be because he wants that more than the discomfort of admitting he was wrong. You shouldn't put up road blocks for his path home, but you can't go get him and lead him back either. Telling him your feelings is pursuit - it's "going to get him". All you can do is leave the path clear then back the *bleep* away and do your own thing.
Let him justify walking away. It just means he is fighting with himself.
(((TJT)))
Gosh this is soooo hard TJT. I really, really understand how you feel but I want to encourage you to reread your post as if you are reading someone else’s thread and think about what advice you would give that person. I know this is so ridiculously painful and confusing and unexplainable BUT it is what it is. For whatever reason, your H, the one you loved and who loved you in return, is gone and this other person is in his place. Maybe your H is in there somewhere and maybe he isn’t. He seems to have made a decision though just as my H has. He could have made a hundred other decisions but he did not. It feels awful...being abandoned with no warning...it is a pain I hope I NEVER have to feel again. You really have to stop trying to mind read and make decisions based on what you think or hope your H is feeling or not feeling. He may one day regret his decision and want to R and he may not. I don’t think anything you say or do right now is going to affect that outcome. He knows you don’t want this and honestly, by filing first, he probably respects you a bit more than he did before. Regardless...you need to take the focus off of him and put it back on you. You can do this. I know you can. We can do it together. (((HUGS)))
Okay... yes, you guys are right, and I know this, I just needed to hear it I think and reinforce that I am doing the right thing, especially when it comes to a specific interaction like this vs. the hypothetical speak we usually talk about here. It feels so easy to screw up a real-time interaction so quickly.
The things you guys are saying do constantly cross my mind, and I have to keep it at the forefront that if he REALLY wants this, he will put his shame and whatever else aside to make it work, and if he wants to R but never does because of that, it's because he hasn't done the work he needs to anyway.
DV, I also appreciate what you said about him potentially respecting me more for filing first. I thought of that as well, but then I reminded myself that his first W also filed (after quite some time as well) and I know for sure that he didn't respect her one bit. Two different people and situations, and their relationship was much shorter, so maybe it's different in this sitch but then again I thought that about our whole M and clearly that was false thinking so who knows... if anything, I haven't actually acknowledged to him that I know he's living with OM and all this stuff my MIL had told me, so I hope maybe me filing did cause some extra thinking on his part about the reality of things (and give him a hint that I know parts of his reality that he may not think I know). But yeah, as if it matters to him at this point which we all agree it doesn't, at least not enough.
I just made myself a little dinner and all the while I was thinking about this and telling myself that I literally need to think of the pain I'm feeling right now like I'm a crack addict, not sadness about losing my H. It is my mind playing tricks on me wanting to pursue, just like a druggie needing a hit. Do I want to be a crackhead? HELL NO. So okay, feel this way if that's what it takes to get me clean. Oh man, it's absolutely so hard. No doubt the hardest thing WE'VE ever done, that I can't believe there's more than a few of us who some out of it alive.
Hopefully we come out of it more alive than we were before we went in it. That’s my hope anyway. Things really s*ck right now, no doubt, but I have to believe that if we do the work, we will be way better people... much better than our WAS who are definitely NOT doing the work. Interesting that your H did this to his first wife and waited her out as well. My H also did this to his first wife. My MIL told me that she (his first wife) had absolutely NO idea that anything was wrong until he told her he wanted a divorce. She was apparently beyond devastated. All of their contact after that was through lawyers and they met once a year later for a conversation in order to have “closure” that my H said was “rough”. While he was looking for an exit, she was apparently talking about having kids. He told me that he realized he needed to go because he didn’t want to have kids with her. I feel like she dodged a HUGE bullet and I stepped right in its path. Oh...and when I mentioned the similarities between the two sitches (i.e. bomb and run), my H got quite defensive saying it was a “completely different” situation. Hmm...me thinks he doth protest too much.
Hi everyone.
You’re going to be so proud.
Long story short something happened while I was on business with my friend/coworker a few weeks ago where I was convinced to download a stupid dating app! I have so many thoughts and feelings about this but I’m typing from my phone so I want to cut to the past few days where I have now had two dates with someone I found there!!
At first we texted until like 2 am, met the next day for dinner, and this evening he came to my house WITH HOMEMADE TACOS. We had an UNO face off and then talked for a few hours where I found out he used to take a salsa class but never had a partner, which I have always wanted to do! He said he would totally do it together with me.
He is very respectful of me and moving very slow, aside from being eager to see me, as I am with him haha.
I have no idea if this will turn into something serious and I have so many questions about dating in general, but the most important thing is I DONT GIVE TWO CRAPS ABOUT H RIGHT NOW! I know it’s possible for me to get hurt again but I am seeing that it’s also possible for someone else to care about me again and that is going to do wonders for my future.
More later.. but wanted to report how I’m GALing the F out of this thing
I thought you were still married.
Happy for you TJT. Just be careful... go slow. It is pretty easy to let yourself get caught up in the newness and excitement and give your brain something else to focus on. If you don’t want this to be a “rebound”, tread carefully. (((HUGS)))
At first we texted until like 2 am, met the next day for dinner, and this evening he came to my house WITH HOMEMADE TACOS. We had an UNO face off and then talked for a few hours where I found out he used to take a salsa class but never had a partner, which I have always wanted to do! He said he would totally do it together with me.
He is very respectful of me and moving very slow, aside from being eager to see me, as I am with him haha.
Please just be very, very careful. The dating sites are clogged with predatory men that know just the right things to say to pull someone in that's on the rebound. Many of them are just addicted to trying to get a new woman in the sack, as soon as that is done (or maybe two or three more times for grins) they cut all contact and are chasing the next target. Obviously that can be very devastating to the woman that was targeted. So keep your guard up. Don't be so quick to trust someone. I read that and can't help but wonder if he bought the HOMEMADE TACOS somewhere local, and how many other women he has woo'd with those same tacos. There's a place about 5 minutes from me that I buy fantastic homemade tacos from. EDIT- I just realized how this sounds, no I do not imply to anyone that I personally made the tacos if I am serving them at my house, LOL!
More later.. but wanted to report how I’m GALing the F out of this thing
If you think you are ready to date then go for it, but dating isn't GAL'ing. That's not what we mean in the context of these forums.
Please just be very, very careful. The dating sites are clogged with predatory men that know just the right things to say to pull someone in that's on the rebound. Many of them are just addicted to trying to get a new woman in the sack, as soon as that is done (or maybe two or three more times for grins) they cut all contact and are chasing the next target.
Yes, be very aware of this. They are very cunning.
I'll stop for tonight, for crying out loud. I wonder if anyone even reads single posts
this long!!
I just read most of it. Went through it twice.
Thanks for the reminders everyone. I’m being careful for sure, I’m just recognizing the impact on things like my general confidence that this is good for. I do also have a much better idea of what kind of “wooing” to look for because of my H and how he was when we first met (very much all in, just like he is moving in with OW and starting a new life ASAP).
I also want to say that while I’m expressing my excitement here I’m obviously not being all naive with this guy. I get the impression we both want to take things at a normal pace and not just jump into something, but we do seem to enjoy each other’s company and have had some good conversations with actual substance.
And yes I am still married legally speaking. The D has been moving forward in small steps but moving nonetheless and before this guy even came into play I have been getting very fatigued by the thought of continuing to try to work things out with my H. When I say I’m doing good GALing I don’t mean just because I’ve had a few dates, but more all the stuff that I’ve been doing that has prompted me to feel okay with even putting myself out there. I started to really detest feeling so bound to my H’s behavior and how that was making me feel all the time. Going out and hanging out with friends and traveling recently really helped me to simply realize that I have space for better things, whereas before I couldn’t even fathom it.
In case it’s a question I have been very honest about my sitch with anyone I talk to so they know what’s going on. AND I want to say that I feel all the work I’ve done the past 8 months or so to process my feelings and try to DB to save the marriage has definitely served me well in terms of feeling like I’ve tried. But again, even before trying this dating thing I was questioning whether I could continue that for what seems like could take years. No matter what happens with the new friend in my life I don’t think that’s going to change. I’m getting to a limit with it all.
Anyway, I am planning at this point to keep pushing the D along myself. After more interactions with my H about our taxes it’s the same old stuff where I’m having to do everything and he’s avoiding responsibility. This is a big year for our taxes due to the house situation and he’s not even able to put in the effort to spend time on it collaboratively. I don’t want this stuff hanging over my head for any longer than needed at this point because I just feel like it’s keeping me in a bad place mentally, and I am getting more and more disgusted by the day when I think about what he’s done, but lately it’s been a very objective feeling vs something I’m obsessing over and trying to “figure out”. I don’t know if that’s detachment but I like to think it is and that I’ve accomplished something there.
TJT, you are young. You have a lot to offer. You will have guys beating down your door. This is his loss, but you deserve more than a guy that is willing to cheat on you and mistreat you.
Onward and upward!
P.S. Go listen to This Is Me from The Greatest Showman. Such an empowering song! You've got this.
Quick update since it's been a few weeks.
D is moving along. H signed the waiver and that's now filed. I have a consultation with an L this week to ensure the verbiage in the decree about the house is all good and well. Hopefully that will be a minimal cost and everything will move along smoothly after that. At the end of this month the waiting period will be over and it will just be a matter of having everything completed and getting a court date.
Filed taxes jointly and asked H if I could just keep his refund half to help pay for his half of the D costs, assuming it costs that much (I would give him his fair share if it's not all needed of course). He let me know he definitely could use the money, but didn't put up a fight about me keeping it because he wanted "to make sure I get my half of things". Good.
Funny enough, STBXH's mom called me maybe a week ago to "catch up" and it actually ended up being a lot of complaining about him! Noticing the same things I've noticed and her telling me it didn't take her long to realize that our sitch was basically her son's issue and not mine. I was able to smile about it and feel pity over any sadness. My frustration around "why won't H change" has seemed to dissolve and I am continuing to focus on me and my experiences without hinging them upon him.
I'm still seeing the guy I met ~3 weeks ago. We spent most of last weekend together, but definitely not in a weird way. He worked part of it but since he lives far I hung out at his place for a while until he'd come home. Then we do normal things like go out to dinner and come back to binge watch Game of Thrones because I've never watched it in my life and since the final season is coming back in April he wants me to catch up haha. He did have to leave suddenly for this week due to a death in the family and I was worried in the sense that I felt like it was going to be a dent in our "momentum" if you will. But I very quickly realized it was a good thing and if anything will help us learn more about each other being apart for the first time and so early on.
So far so good - he actually texted me yesterday evening saying he was trying to buy tickets for us to a comedy show when he comes back but was having a hard time doing it from there on his phone, so he said if I bought it he'd transfer the money back to me.
The only major thing I've struggled with is once again all related to SM. Obviously it's VERY early in this and I don't know how serious it will get, so I'm not making it a "thing" right now, but we did follow each other on IG and I noticed he follows various IG models and does regularly "like" their photos (not excessively, but regularly). Sometimes these photos are just a "normal" picture of a beautiful woman but there are equal number of those where it's a bikini thong pic, lingerie pic, etc. Of course this makes me feel ULTRA INSECURE but between googling opinions on this stuff and asking a few friends, combined with the fact that it is so early and he is obviously making an effort with me, I'm trying to tell myself to let it goooo. If later on we get more serious and it's still happening and bothering me then maybe we can talk about it and I can let him know how it makes me feel and see how that goes.
We have had 1 or 2 other conversations about "deeper" subjects (situations with his last two serious relationships, his family, and me even giving him some feedback) that have all been really mature and gone really well.
It's definitely a change trying to "date" when you're so used to being in a long-term, locked down relationship where you have a lot of history and influence with someone. Having to remind myself to take deep breaths and not overthink things or do anything that would seem overbearing, all the while also making sure I'm true to myself, getting what I need, and maintaining a level of awareness for red flags.
No matter which way this experience goes, I think there's a lot about it that has been good for me in growing as a person after what's happened with my STBXH.
In case anyone is still following...
Life [censored] and then we die is basically where I'm at, hah.
I really want to write up everything that happened with the guy I started seeing. I think it would be really helpful to see the context. With others in my life I've explained the situation to, they tend to agree that it didn't seem like this guy was a snake. If he was, he was a really good one (and I fully understand that that's possible). And IF that was the case, what a cruel situation for me to have to go through after everything I've already been through.
The short story is that he honestly seemed really into it. I was (so I thought) very careful about my own behavior and actions AND his (trying to gauge red flags) but we did mesh really well and everything seemed very genuine and natural. We communicated SO openly and checked in with each other regularly to make sure we were on the same page. It all seemed good. But he went on a trip for family and then with friends, came back, apparently got offered a new job another state over and said it was his dream job and was going to have to be selfish and it wouldn't be fair to me to try to make it work because I'd be putting more into this than him, blah blah blah. I did ask if he just changed his mind about me and to be honest with me - he emphatically denied, said he really liked me and thought about everything he had going on here including me, but he just "has to do this".
On one hand he could have just ghosted me or been an a-hole about it...so the fact that he said all of that makes me semi believe our "relationship", while short-lived, really was mutual. But on the other hand to go from talking about the things we were talking about and the time we spent to suddenly "I don't have time for anything", it did seem weird. I recognize this could just be another person who has their own issues to deal with, that he said all the things he said to make himself feel better about it, and that no matter how much I like the way this person made me feel, they are not the person for me.
I don't know how many times I'll have to deal with situations like this but I'm already tired of doing the song and dance for nothing! I admit I had two days of the same panic and anxiety that I had with my H... because man, guys, I was so happy for those 3 weeks. It sounds lame and I'm sure naive but it was like a huge weight was lifted off my shoulders. It was amazing to be able to look forward to dressing up and going to dinner with someone. It was amazing to spend evenings with someone. It was amazing to get texts from someone again. And YES I've had all of those things with friends but it's just not the same. I really thought I'd have a long-term relationship with this person - I trusted and while some may argue I shouldn't have, I don't think that was my fault. I certainly didn't trust completely blindly. I watched for things and never heard that alarm (even looking back now, because trust me I analyzed the crap out of the situation, reviewing texts and everything to try and see if I was just in la la land).
Ultimately, the good that came out of this is that I now know it's possible again to have those feelings. The bad is that I now realize how fragile I really will be in any new relationship, because this was only a few weeks with someone; what if I get into a relationship that lasts a year and it's still not the one and that doesn't work out either? I've talked with friends and my IC about these things and it seems there's nothing abnormal about what I'm going through, but like I said... being in this situation royally [censored], and I want it to be over and onto my next happy phase of life ASAP but in reality I know this "transition" period is really just beginning.
Separately, I've been reflecting on the sitch with my STBXH and even despite this happening with this other person I still have no regrets about moving forward with the D. In fact, I filed the decree paperwork, which he signed with no problem, and I will be going in tomorrow for court to hopefully get it ordered and finalized by the judge. It's been a year since we had moved into our new home, which is an important milestone to me because it's easy to benchmark how long our relationship was rocky, and I knew it had been happening right before moving into the house. The more time and space I get between our whole sitch and my future, the better I am feeling at this point. I want to be rid of it and move on and hopefully find happiness, even though I am totally finding it to be like navigating a foreign universe and it's really, really stressful.
This does kind of bring me to a weird place on these forums I think. Since I'm no longer trying to save my marriage or even any kind of relationship with my ex, do I have a place here anymore? Is there a separate board for people like me who may now need a place to vent and get advice about dating or even just our own behaviors in relationships after having D'ed despite our best efforts? I'd like to be able to tell a "success" story one day of someone who was able to move on and have a good life despite what my H put me through, which I think is equally as important as the sitches where recon happens, since we can't fully control whether that happens or not.
Anyway... thanks to anyone still reading!
In case anyone is still following...
do I have a place here anymore? Is there a separate board for people like me who may now need a place to vent and get advice about dating or even just our own behaviors in relationships after having D'ed despite our best efforts?
Surviving D:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=postlist&Board=38&page=1I am only active in newbies. They always need support.
TJT,
Surviving the big D has a bunch of DBers who can listen to you vent and give advice on the post-D life.
TJT, there's a lot in your post. I like the positives that you've pulled out from the past few weeks. That you know you can find someone again, that you feel confident in moving forward with your D. Those are good.
But I just don't see anything bad about what this guy is doing. I mean sure it totally [censored]. Absolutely. But with three weeks into a R no matter HOW much you click - it sounds like he made the right choice for him, and you can't fault that. If he got a great job he really couldn't just dismiss it.
In your writing it sounds like you're living in a lot of fear with being alone. Three weeks in and already seeing a LTR is very, very fast. Three weeks is limerence - despite him being a great guy.
I know it [censored] right now to be alone. But I really think you need to bravely face this time period as a single person.
Not what you want to hear right now, but please consider.
Hey Yail!
I agree that ultimately I'm glad he did this if it's what he really wanted. The part I'm having trouble with is that I don't think he was really honest. I have that gut feeling that it was some other reason, and while it still stands that the reason probably doesn't matter if that's the way he wanted to go, I just hate continuing to feel like I'm not worth an honest explanation to these people. Once again it seems it's more about him than me and I'm trying to figure out things that probably have no (good) answer anyway.
I 100% agree 3 weeks in and thinking of LTR seems ridiculous. It was just one of those things that actually didn't seem like, illogically crazy, but just like something we both wanted. There were many times during the process that I checked myself but I didn't sense anything about this guy not being sure about what he was in it for so that whole thing just came down to me trusting too much too soon and believing what people say and do means more than it probably does, and that's probably the biggest ache of it all. I'm so tired of that and considering it happened with my XH after 9 years, I feel like I have no choice but to go into things semi-blind, but aware. Because then I ask myself well, what if the right person does come along but I'm TOO guarded because I don't trust anyone or can't feel like I can trust my own feelings and be authentic? It's just a tough dance and I just want consistency.
That being said I am definitely trying to embrace more of the unknown and just "going with the flow" after all that. I've gone on other dates and have adjusted to be more honest with myself in terms of not assuming anything, again despite what I might be seeing or hearing. I really hate that and I can already feel that it could turn ME into a person who ruins things with someone if I start to seem like I'm not ready to commit even though I am. But anyway, those are dating world problems not D problems
Yail I will also not deny for one minute that I am afraid to be alone. Not in the sense of generally being alone, but the thought of being along long-term and every moment that passes by in the meantime is very difficult for me. I feel like time is just being wasted, and I know I'll be learning good things in this process but I'm not confident that it will be worth what I feel is being lost in not spending a lot of my moments with someone I care about. When I go on a date and have a great time, it's good for that moment but then I get back home and end up feeling like if it wasn't for something more then it was just a distraction. Repeat that enough times and I can see how dating and constantly cycling through people becomes a thing very quickly, because it just wears on you to be investing energy and all you want is to get it back, so you keep doing the temporary fill dance until maybe one day it sticks.
I don't know, I'm really fumbling my way through my "new life" and while I have moments where I embrace it, I still do have a lot of resentment - not even at my XH, but just at the fact that I have to go through this and that I don't know if I will ever get the consistency of a LTR let alone a marriage in my life again.
HI TJT.
Great to hear from you again. Sounds like you have done pretty well moving forward. Don’t be so hard on yourself. You have got lots of time to meet someone and have your forever relationship. Just focus on figuring out who you are without someone. I was 32 when my first marriage broke up and I spent five years on my own. I remember having similar fears but I got busy. Started playing pool competitively, got into martial arts, met lots of people and had a great time. In the end, I met my STXH and we had the family I worried I would never have. And now? Well... new chapter... I will figure it out. I have met a lot of great people I would never have met had this not happened to me so that, in itself, is a blessing. You will be just fine.
BTW...I don’t know if your new guy lied or not. The reason sounds pretty legit to me but then I lived with a liar for 13 years so I’m not the best judge...lol. When I first started internet dating, I met a guy who literally swept me off my feet. We were really compatible in a lot of ways. He told me I was his soul mate, bought me all kinds of gifts and even took me to Vegas...all within the span of four weeks. Then, as suddenly as he had appeared, he was gone...lol. My dad and sister were also diagnosed with cancer around that time so his departure was felt a lot more deeply than if that had been all I was dealing with. But...I eventually got over it...and we are Facebook friends...lol.
So this guy didn’t work out. That’s totally okay. You learned some really important things about yourself. You can fall for someone again... you can see your future with someone else. You will get there my friend. I will see you over on the divorced thread soon if you decide to post there...lol.
(((HUGS)))
Hey DV... thanks for stopping by
I've since seen a few things on this guy's social account that have me pretty confident he didn't up and move anywhere for another job. But it is what it is.. just sort of going (back) through the process of evaluating another person from the perspective of who I thought they were being different than who they actually are, and separating my feelings from that.
I really struggle with how people can be so inconsistent and from a relationship standpoint it's starting to worry me even more than I thought it would before. I am finding myself in situations where I'm anxious about whether someone is going to text me back and what they are really thinking. I am finding myself to be pretty needy in the validation department, which on one hand I don't think is totally bad because I deserve to be validated...and someone who wants me will gladly provide it... but on the other hand I feel it tricks me into worst-case scenario thinking when I don't get it and I have a very real, physical anxious reaction to it.
I've continued to try different things to manage that (breathing, keeping myself busy) but I often find myself getting very "stuck" in my mind where I'm not motivated to do anything else until this one lingering thought and feeling gets resolved. Usually that's by way of the next text or next phone call coming through where phew, the person seemed to care about me and it didn't end in a discard (and in the meantime I become obsessed about keeping my phone nearby and checking things). Either that or a good chunk of time completely separating myself from said situation/person, like with my XH.
After just writing that out and re-reading it I am certain that I am still dealing with PTSD from my situation and it's very frustrating because in my logical mind I feel very sharp and understanding of how I should be thinking and feeling about things, but my body and emotional mind is just not complying. The smallest things can trigger my heart racing or me feeling really terrible. And then I feel terrible that I feel terrible, like why can't I deal with these situations "normally" and not feel like it's the end of the world when they happen?
Anyway, just some journaling I guess. I am trying to stay focused on the positive strides I've made, and I am actually really proud of them. There's just still a huge imbalance in my life that I am feeling very deeply and I am trying to better understand and then address how to fix that, but so far the only other option I've come up with is to not engage at all (just avoid the possibility of these situations all together) and I know that's not the right answer.
And yes DV, I think I'll just go ahead and start my divorced thread in a moment and make sure to come back and link to it here for anyone who wants to keep following. And I hope to keep coming back and checking on the sitches here too.
TJT, before you wrote it I was also thinking something along the lines of PTSD. If this extreme anxiety is not your norm I do think you are still reeling from all that has been going on in your life.
If I could say anything, it's that it sounds like you're spinning because you're too much "in it" right now. It's consuming your mind, which then dictates your emotions. I know you're trying to push it away, but it's creeping in there. I get it. I've been in a tailspin before.
Can you identify a strict schedule with yourself to help keep your mind busy? You deserve a mental break. I'll tell you - I'm an avid knitter. And I happen to process and do a lot of thinking when I'm knitting. But if you're not a knitter, it will keep up much of your brain power to focus on this new thing. Plus at the end you get to have a cool hat or scarf etc.
As a fellow introvert I know that GAL can be hard when we just NEED so much time to ourselves. It's not that I don't like people - I love them! I just NEED time by myself in my own home to be happy and healthy. But you need to focus on how Introverts GAL right now. Plan an elaborate meal or baking project you want to tackle one evening. Freezer stockpiling is always helpful so you have healthy meals on hand. Try a new craft. Go to the movies by yourself. Get DuoLingo or Babbel and dive into a new language.
I strongly suggest you set a schedule for yourself. Or at least set a list of things you can do when you find yourself spinning. Each time that happens go get those knitting needles.
Thanks Yail, and I totally agree with you. I’ve been trying to think of how I can keep myself busier - the crazy thing is I have been GALing quite a bit more with other friends since this happened, and at times I feel better but then when I get down time again, as much as I need it and want it like you so accurately pointed out, emotionally it’s very easy for me to start spiraling again once I have time to think.
I know having things to “do” even at home is probably what I need to solve for. This has been harder because when I’m at home I am finding it very difficult to get motivated to do things because those are the things I feel like are “for nothing”, in the sense that I’m not sharing it with anyone else. So any project or food or anything that comes to fruition seems more like a chore even if I benefit from it lol.
It sounds terrible, but if I’m honest I almost feel like I’d rather be going out every night... and I ALSO think part of that has come from the fact that when I meet new people, I’ve started to feel really lame as a person. It seems everyone has tons of friends or family and they always have something going on. Granted I put into perspective that I’ve been in a committed relationship for 9 years and was trying to settle down, and now I am trying to make a huge transition that’s been made more difficult by the fact that I now live in the suburbs locked down to a home. It will just take time and that frustrates me because I want to be able to move on and start whatever my new life will be but it seems there’s always “something”.
I’m sure somehow it’s a good thing that this is part of the process even though yeah, I don’t want to hear that. It’s just so painful in the sense that there are multiple layers and types of pain associated with all this. Just when you think you’ve conquered one part of it (in my case the pain of losing my XH and wanting to be with him, which I feel at peace with now) there are so many other things to overcome.
I’ve continued reading in the divorce threads how people do say they feel it’s worse than a death for exactly that reason (being so many other facets to the pain). This is something I feel people going into marriage really need to be made more aware of!! The impacts on mental health from these situations needs to be a major public service announcement!
TJT, how you doing these days? Peeking at the boards, but not signed in?
Hope you're good.
Hey Yail. Yeah I’ve peeked at the boards here and there. Mostly been trying to GAL but to honest I’m not good at it. I’ve been dating a guy for about three months now and there’s so many red flags but I like his company, we do have chemistry in certain ways...but I’m finding it very hard to set boundaries because I just keep this mindset of “maybe if I try hard enough it will work.” It’s the most ridiculous thing l can think of someone doing but here I am feeling paralyzed by my own mind, unable to stop what I know is a train heading towards me.
I like to think I’m learning through this, and that even though I haven’t done it YET, I will come to the point of having the confidence to walk away from things where I’m not FULLY getting what I need. That’s my excuse for the time being.
I’ve wanted to write in the “after divorce” forums more to get more advice and keep everyone up to date but I’ve just wanted so badly to start a new life that writing fell by the wayside. I know it be good for me though. Also, these forums are just kind of a pain in their archaic nature.
Anyway, I’ve been meaning to revisit your posts and a few others’. Maybe tomorrow while I have time I can.
Life is too short and there are too many others out there to put up with red flags after 3 months. TJT you have more value than that! Make a clean break and start looking for a better match!
Hi all. My new thread in the divorced forum is here if you wish to continue following. Admittedly I only seem to come on here when I'm struggling in my "new life"/relationships and need advice but I will always try to return the favor during my periods of activity!
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2906540#Post2906540