Last thread.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2826360&page=11Journaling
I got home from work and WW immediately left for Yoga, again. I took S11 to the gym and had a seriously good workout. Afterwards we left to eat and we may catch a flick. My d19 was messaging my wW and I trying to figure out what we were doing for NYE.
WW told me that she wasnt doing anything but D19 let the cat out of the bag and WW is going to Vegas. Good lord. GGW i guess.
I messaged WW because i have to take care of D19s cat and want to confirm if S11 has to stay with me at D19s place.
WW responds to tell me shes going to see a friend, who guess what? Is going through a D right now. Waywards have to stick together now. But she doesnt stop there, she goes on to tell me that shes going because she needs to be around people that dont think she is a piece of sh*t for a few days.
Sure WW. Whatever you say. Then she finishes off by saying "it's not like you ever tell me what you are doing anyway".
Now wW wants me to refinance the house and buy her out. I'm not doing anything for her or to make her life easier.
I just responded "I'm sorry you feel that way, I will look into it".
WW got up super early and left to Vegas. I'm sure she is with OM. It bothers me but I need to ignore her and continue to focus on GAL. I'm going to go look at condos today.
WW got up super early and left to Vegas. I'm sure she is with OM. It bothers me but I need to ignore her and continue to focus on GAL. I'm going to go look at condos today.
For you or for her?
I'm going to look at condos for me. WW wont move out. WW keeps lying and traveling to see OM. I am really tired of the cake eating and disrespect. I would stay here but I cant afford this beautiful home by myself. I doubt I can qualify to refinance it.
I get my legal benefits on the 1st. Going to get an L and have them draw up a custody agreement. WW still hasn't filed for D. I'm not going to file but I am feeling pretty strong about moving out. WW doesnt want me. I dont want to live with a woman that has so little care for me that she continues to lie and continues her A.
I'm having a very hard time with my anger today. I really want to blast my WW with messages about her lying and trip to Vegas. Please help talk me out of this. Good God.
ST... Do NOT send your WW any messages. Just don’t. It won’t do anything except further her resolve to D. Focus on yourself and on spending time with your children and GAL activities. I know this hurts. I get it. Honestly...the deaths of my parents were easier to get through than this and I loved my parents immensely. But this level of hurt and anger can’t last if you don’t let it. Right now your emotions and unhelpful thoughts are in control. Take the control back. Choose your focus. Choose better, not bitter. Go work out or for a walk or journal or do anything else but send your WW messages. You WILL get through this. Try to do it with your dignity and self-respect intact. You don’t NEED her to survive. You WANT her but that is not the same thing. Choose your focus. Take it off of her and put it back onto you. (((ST)))
Thanks DV. Taking S11 for a haircut. Going to get some food. I was going to go workout but I have a bad headache. Probably part of why I'm in a bad mood. I hit the gym hard yesterday. Very sore today.
I am going to decide whether to move out soon. I am considering it and removing the emotions and just listing positive and negative.
Negative
It will hurt both me and my kids because they have always lived with me
I will no longer have a nice big house
Costs will be a little more
I wont see my kids 50% of the time
Positive
I can truly focus on myself without seeing WW all the time.
I will be able to have my kids still.
I wont have to split Bill's with WW.
I will be able to detach much easier.
GAL will be easy every other week when I'm alone
I can fully relax and let my emotions show if I'm alone
You are there ST! I feel the force when reading your posts here! You are getting there! Keep moving forward. You are showing confidence and consistency.
Go for all man!
Thanks Neffer. It's a rough decision. I will have to discuss with WW because she will either help me willingly or help me because the courts say so. That's what happens when she makes a lot more money and she destroys her family.
Found a nice 1350sq ft condo. 1200/month so about the same as my 3k st ft home. But it would be all mine. I would need to furnish it.
My 2 cents:
Do not move out of the house until you have a written and signed 50/50 parenting plan in place.
My 2 cents:
Do not move out of the house until you have a written and signed 50/50 parenting plan in place.
I agree. My legal benefits kick in Tuesday. So I'll get a free attorney. I will do that and get started on having a plan drafted.
This was my boundary with my X. My Lawyer didn't like it but it worked:
H:"W, I do not want the house. I will move out of the house as soon as we have a written 50/50 parenting plan"
She had like 90 days to refi the house in her name. If she couldn't qualify, I had the option. Otherwise we were to sell house.
Did your attorney draft that up? Even without filing for D?
The house was part of the D decree.
The parenting agreement was in stages.
R2C. I read up on your stitch the best I could.
You did a great job. I am trying to model my behaviors off of yours. Just focusing on myself and my kids. Enjoying every precious moment.
I think moving out helped you a ton. Where are you now with your ex? You are still single right? Or are you dating?
My WW definitely feels the pain she caused. I know she feels my detachment because I get those little temp checks of "you never tell me what you are up to". And I know she feels the pain of what she did when she says stuff like "I need to go visit someone that doesnt think I'm a piece of sh*t"
I honestly feel like the person she is now is a POS and OM is a POS as well lol. This is is why I'm mostly focusing on LRT.
I dont believe my WW is strong enough to try and heal our MR. WW has never been one to own up to her mistakes. I dont see her changing that at all.
Therefore I will keep detaching, GAL and my 180s because they benefit me so much more and also benefit my kids.
The short version:
All the red flags of an A were there, but I didn't snoop. Got 50/50 parenting in place. I moved out. Worked on myself. Met a lady divorcing her serial cheater, drunk driving husband. We have been living together for about 7 years. Her D16 living with us full time. I have D16 and S18 every other week. S19 is in college. Only thing My X wants from me is money. X enables irresponsible behavior in my children. I have to deal with the emotional parenting.
While I was with X, she dropped 3 friends and never spoke to them again. Did same with me. X looks miserable still. I am no longer her source of unhappiness. The children have mentions at least 4 different men so far.
And this:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2061092
Wow. So you ended up having a WW after all.
What do you think about how my WW also does NC with me? I know shes still in the A. The difference between my NC and WWs is that I am doing it for myself. I keep distance to protect my emotions. I feel that WW just does it to try and be hateful.
My kids all know I have been looking at condos. All of them feel like I should not be the one who moves, but they know WW is stubborn and wont leave.
I took S11 with me to look at condos. He really liked the ones I found. D16 also likes them as she looked online and at some pictures i sent her.
I have a friend who lives in the same condos so if he refers me i get like half off first mo tha rent.
Update on my plan.
Before I move out I will accomplish three things.
Get a custody agreement in place, even if D has not been filed.
Pay my CC off
Sell my car and get something cheaper
I dont want to sell my car and honestly I dont really have to. But it's a huge expense that I just dont need right now. I am a car guy, which WW hates.
My WW literally cannot be supportive of any hobby if the hobby costs $$$. I mean like I could do oragami and Wzw would say it's a waste of money.
Now that I have been focusing on myself and can see MR fro. A different perspective, I cannot remember a single time WW was supportive of any extracurricular activity that I wanted to do.
WW literally thinks that me having a hobby is a waste of money. According to her I shouldn't ever want nice things. I should never want a fast car. I shouldn't want any new hunting gear because it's just me boozing my ego. Me dressing sharp is just me being vain.
I have noticed that my WW has taken the worst parts of her parents and made those her driving force.
WW is extremely judgemental and critical of anything I do. My car, my clothes, my hobbies etc. WW feels she is elite and above me because she has her masters and a high paying job. I dont have a degree yet. I will be starting school here soon.
Even without a degree I make what my WW did two years ago.
The funny thing is WW complains that I spend too much money on my hobbies when she throws money at house cleaners we dont need, fake nails, fake eyelashes, all sorts of stuff to change how she looks.
I can see now that my WW has never truly been supportive of me. I never had her behind me saying "you can do it ST!" I always hear "you wont do it, you're just like so and so who blah blah blah"
My WW compared me to family members who are lazy, have no job, have filed bankruptcy multiple times, have cheated on their spouses etc.
I have never paid a bill late in my life. I have worked steadily since I was 14. I have always provided my family with a steady income and insurance. I truly understand that even with a few stupid decisions I made in the past that I am a damn good man. I am a great father. I am successful and I dont need to prove it.
I like my hobbies and I will do what I can to keep them up because they make me happy and they dont take anything from my kids or family.
Now that I have been getting attention from different women, I realize that I am one helluva catch. One of the women I have been getting to know as friends told me that I am what every single woman in her 30s is looki g for. She said I am a breath of fresh air because I know what I want, know who I am and I am stable. Another woman told me that she has been looking for a man my age for awhile and that every si gle man she has met my age that is not married is not emotionally mature or financially stable. This woman said that I am so far ahead in maturity than most men my age because of the life I chose.
She also said most men live with their parents or with roommates and are desperately trying to hold onto their youth.
My new perspective of myself is that I am a rare type of man. I dont need anyone to take care of me. I also dont need to take care of anyone but my kids. I know that when I am ready I will find a woman that is willing to invest into a mutually beneficial relationship with me so that we can both grow together and support each others goals and desires.
It's amazing how much of a wake up call one gets when they get betrayed. I think to myself "was I really settling that much for what I had?"
Yes, I was. I was resigned to the fact that my WW was all I could get. I now know that's so untrue.
What do you think about how my WW also does NC with me? I know shes still in the A. The difference between my NC and WWs is that I am doing it for myself. I keep distance to protect my emotions. I feel that WW just does it to try and be hateful.
Did she start NC before or after you?
I think the good thing is you initiated to protect yourself. Who knows why she did. Doesn't really matter. Don't mind read.
As far as the house, if you move out, will there be a mortgage to cover? What if W doesn't pay? Will you be liable?
WW is anal about our good credit and ahead can more than afford it. No way she would screw our credit rating over.
I will ask for my name to be removed though.
Ya who cares what she does. I feel that my sitch will follow yours pretty closely. I dont expect my WW to wise up and repair our family.
These things happen for a reason. Your reason is personal growth. Going through this and learning about attraction and real human behavior and all the other tools will make you a much more attractive male. You will also be much more aware of the red flags and hopefully attract a more healthy female into your life. If that female is your W with remorse, then you will have some crazy decisions to make.
I agree. I doubt it will be my WW with remorse. She doesnt do remorse. Honestly she is way to prideful to back off of what she decided. I absolutely can recognize the red flags to avoid for sure. I have grown a lot. I have learned a ton from thos situation and from all of you here. So glad I found this site
I dont believe my WW is strong enough to try and heal our MR. WW has never been one to own up to her mistakes. I dont see her changing that at all.
I am so glad you have this clarity, Torn. I kind of feel this way about my H but I can't truly bring myself to accept it.
Another woman told me that she has been looking for a man my age for awhile and that every si gle man she has met my age that is not married is not emotionally mature or financially stable. This woman said that I am so far ahead in maturity than most men my age because of the life I chose.
She also said most men live with their parents or with roommates and are desperately trying to hold onto their youth.
And this is why I am terrified of not having my H back...seems everything is relative and if my H was at least willing to come back to our M, however hard it may be, I feel like it'd be better than being a single woman experiencing what these women are telling you about! I've heard this type of thing more than once and no matter what people say, or how young or how pretty or how XYZ I am, I feel screwed.
SoTorn:
My XW was so full of pride that it was a sticking point in our MR. A year after BD and D, she recognized that she was an egotistical beach and admits that she had no right to be so full of herself. It took her hitting rock bottom... and like yours, my XW always had perfect credit. Now she would be lucky to get approved for a library card.
TJT:
You’re not screwed. I will say dating was a challenge for me due to some circumstances unique to my situation, but it was not impossible at all. And as you know, my XW asked me for a second chance, yet there are days I feel like I deserve more. I just know that if I didn’t give her a second chance I’d regret it. But for real, in a year there’s a good chance you will be able to look back and wonder what you were thinking when you thought you’d be better off taking him back.
SoTorn:
My XW was so full of pride that it was a sticking point in our MR. A year after BD and D, she recognized that she was an egotistical beach and admits that she had no right to be so full of herself. It took her hitting rock bottom... and like yours, my XW always had perfect credit. Now she would be lucky to get approved for a library card.
TJT:
You’re not screwed. I will say dating was a challenge for me due to some circumstances unique to my situation, but it was not impossible at all. And as you know, my XW asked me for a second chance, yet there are days I feel like I deserve more. I just know that if I didn’t give her a second chance I’d regret it. But for real, in a year there’s a good chance you will be able to look back and wonder what you were thinking when you thought you’d be better off taking him back.
Ya I wouldn't put anything past her at this point. But the only thing under both of our names is the house. I can afford to lay it if I have to.
Again I have financial goals. By the end of February I will have my credit card that I used for the investigator paid off, my car sold and zero debt for myself. That way I can easily afford a nice cheaper yet fast car lol and to either live in MH or on my own. I am going to hold myself to the original goal of March. I can get situated by then and if there is no positive from WW at all I will move out.
If I can get situated financially a little quicker I will move that date up a bit. I'm ready to live my life. I have a lot to do and a lot to offer. I feel like WW is an anchor that I am dragging through tar right now. Even letting go emotionally the attachments I have to her are holding me back from my true potential.
It really [censored] she did this right now because I was offered a chance to move to our corporate office at work to further my career. I cant do that now because I am not forfeiting my custody of the kids. WW tried to talk me into it. I told her that there was no way in hell I was going to just up and leave for 9 months when my kids custody is on the line.
So D16 told me that she spoke with WW while WW is in Vegas. WW complained to her that she was staying home on NYE because "everyone" was giving her a hard time about ditching the kids.
Funny thing is nobody said jack about whether they cared if she was gone or not.
The only thing that I said when WW asked if I was going out on NYE was that I was electing to spend it with my children because they are important.
S11 told me that he had told WW that she never does anything with them. He told WW that I am the only one that keeps them busy. WW told him "oh dads just doing this now because of blah blah" so S11 told her "no dad has been doing stuff with us since you started ignoring us and going out of town 1.5 years ago".
WW has it in her mind that I am "only now" concerned about spending time with the kids. WW has convinced herself that it was someone else taking care of our family for the last 1.5 years that she has withdrawn from us.
It's so nuts that they literally create their own story lines. For example, WW has hit me several times when arguing over the last few years. That was a new thing. But if I brought it up she literally says "that never happened" NPD full steam ahead.
I am glad that she is returning the NC.
It's so weird reading all of the sitches. There are those that detach with abundant love and are acting as BFF to the WW. Then those that go NC like me. I am being cordial because that's all I want to be. I read some people jump at invitations to go to dinner or family outings. Why would one do this when their WW is in an A? What is the point. WW isnt going to notice anything I am doing for her or me being loving if she has a boyfriend.
It's also funny that WW travels to go meet her lover but then says stuff like "people think I'm a POS" or "everyone's complaining I'm not home"
Well uh, WW, you are continuing POS behavior and you are not home. So if it makes you feel guilty or bad why the hell do you do it? Good God. I would assume the OM is digging his claws in as deep as possible. Keeps feeding her BS to help her justify what she is doing.
It's also right out of the wayward textbook that suddenly her close friends are all wayward women, free spirits or people going through D.
Journaling
Today was a good day at work. I finished my projects that needed to get done by today. I finished all of my process documentation and publication that I said I would, even with a few minor setbacks.
I start school Wednesday. I am getting my BS in Project Management online and 100% paid for by work.
I have set my self a financial plan which I will be implementing very shortly and set a date to move out of my house. The only thing that would stop me from moving out is if I can qualify for my home once I get my financial plan in place and WW moves out instead.
My legal benefits kick in tomorrow. I get free attorney services through my work so I will be retaining an L and asking that they draft up a custody agreement for 50/50 custody with a decree that when I move out my WW will have 90 days to remove me from the mortgage and pay me my part of the equity.
I have already found a condo that I would be happy to live in. The condo is a bit expensive but it is what it is. When I execute my financial plan I will be able to easily afford it.
Further goals are that once I am moved out after my financial plan has been executed I will start taking advantage of our stock purchase plan here at work. I get to set aside 15% of my income to purchase stocks. I then get a 25% discount on stocks and on top of that I get to purchase the stocks at the lowest price for the session.
I get a raise in February and I also get a bonus in February. I will be filing my taxes this year as married filing separately, so that can wait until I get my bonus because I am sure that I will owe. I think my WW wants to file married filing jointly, but thats not going to happen.
I will be doing all of this while awaiting the mostly inevitable D that my WW said she was going to file for. Even though WW told me that we need to prepare to pay the taxes on the house in April 2019. So somewhere in her whirlwind of a mind and thoughts she at least thought at one point that we will both be living in the same home in April 2019.
DB is so counter intuitive. My brain is shouting "go show WW you love her and care for her and will do anything to get her back". But I know I can't do that. So I force my brain to say "You will be fine alone, take care of yourself and your kids, stick to your plans, stick to your guns, be nice and cordial to WW but thats it".
So I'm reading a good book "unf**k yourself" I had just finished the part about "expect nothing accept everything" which states that if you have expectations and focus on the expectations and they aren't met, you will get angry and that's a waste of energy.
My WW was upstairs putting the Christmas tree away. WW has always been the type to expect people to read her mind when she wants something done.
WW boxed the tree up and carried it down the stairs. Shes making all sorts of grunting sounds like if the box weighs a million pounds. It doesnt, shes more than capable of moving a fake tree in a box.
When she gets to the bottom she says "really nice teaching your son to not lift a finger to help, I dont see any change"
I used to always ask if she needed help with things, made myself available and most of the time she would say no. I am not a mind reader and will never be.
Tonight I cooked dinner. I usually dont cook. I set it up so I'm cooking all week because I have no clue if WW will be going out of town or not. I guess that's sort of a 180, but it's for good reason.
Anyway, I just responded saying "I'm sorry that you feel upset". WW just cannot get the idea that if you want help, you ask nicely. WW wants me to just jump and help her right after she gets back from a trip with OM.
I'm sorry but I'm not going to help her with a menial task like I used to when I was her H. If she would have asked nicely, yes I would have helped, but I am no mind reader.
So back to the book, my WW had set herself with the expectation that since she was doing something that I should automatically offer help. When i didnt offer help she got upset that her expectations were not met. So she got angry for setting an expectation when she could have just asked for help.
Am I wrong not to be asking WW if she needs help constantly? That is what I used to do because I was pursuing her trying to make her happy by offering help with everything.
ST, two things:
1) Cannot stress enough the importance of speaking to your L first before you start doing things financially. You may put yourself in a position where your W still has rights to the money you're setting aside, EVEN IF there are certain "agreements" in place - depending on your state. Make sure you are covered legally so that anything you start building up won't tip the scales and put you in a worse place should D have to happen.
2) Regarding your W and all the things she is asking / expecting and how you are analyzing them - I think you are thinking WAY too much about her. I am not saying I don't do this too, by the way, but in your last post it was really super obvious that you are still letting her behavior (which you KNOW is not logical) bother you.
It is definitely harder for you since you are still living together. That was one of the major factors in my sitch that I couldn't handle, and it only lasted a few weeks in my case before I had to tell H to go. HOWEVER, you do have to weigh, again, not only the legal aspect of moving out but ALSO the reality that you will not have as many opportunities to interact with your W and show her your 180s, etc.
I totally get your conflicted feelings on this because it will absolutely help you to detach, but you just have to be prepared for what may happen either way (continued cake-eating while you're together, or her potentially seeing you moving out as even more of an opportunity to get deeper involved with OM). I somewhat regret asking my H to move out for that reason (I feel it expedited him and OW getting serious...but maybe that's just the illusion I had, I don't know).
Also, I'm not the best at "prescribing" actions based on DBing principles since my sitch was too far gone before I got here, but if there's anything you could do to make sure you are not only validating your feelings, but also expressing what YOU would need (setting the boundary), that may be good. I totally understand that you have likely done that before without result, and without her active willingness to work on the M with you, it does sound like cake-eating.
Definitely stay calm and don't get angry and vindictive or "punishing" toward her.
My state is 50 50 period. Also, I would just be paying down debt that we would be splitting if I didn't. But yes I'll ask a L.
I was actually ignoring WW all night. I dont really let her comments bother me anymore. Old me would have been sucked into an argument with her comments. I used to aggressively defend myself when she said dumb stuff. That helped nothing.
There are pros and cons of me staying and moving. OM is married and lives in another state. WW already travels constantly to see him. His job requires he lives in his state.
Yes it still bothers me obviously. The cake eating bothers me a lot. I have talked with several Ls. There is no harm in me moving out. I have good reason.
I have said my boundaries multiple times. WW doesnt care unfortunately. So all I can do is not get drawn in. I wasnt trying to punish her. I honestly figured she could handle putting a tree away.
I would have helped if she asked. I was just reading and wasnt even paying attention to her.
If I move it will be because I no longer want to R with WW. That would be a self preservation move.
Maybe Sandi can give me some feedback on whether or not I should be available and offering help.
I have always offered. But that's some history she rewrote where I "never" did anything. According to her she built our successful life alone.
If I stay its because I'm still hoping WW will come around. I dont know if that's what I want honestly.
OK look. The minute your spouse decides to have an A, it means you can't be a part of their life anymore (with the exception of children and business.)
You do NOT allow cake eating. You are better than that. Don't allow yourself to be used and abused that way. If your WS has decided they want to be with OP, then that is THEIR NEW PERSON.
XW asked me for help a few times during our D that was neither business nor kids. One time she came home and thought the house may have been burglarized because the back door was wide open. She wanted me to come and check the house for intruders. I told her to ask her new man for help with that, because that's his job now. Yeah, she lost her sht over the phone and screamed at me about it. Whatever! I hung up. She could have asked OM or even called the cops. Leave me alone.
On several occasions I had to tell her that we are not friends. I am either your husband or I am not, but I am NEVER going to be in your friend zone, EVER. EV. ER.
Also, doing sht for them is not "fighting" for them because they will continue the A no matter what you do for them!!!! They want their cake and they want to eat it too! Every time!
I have said my boundaries multiple times. WW doesnt care unfortunately.
Stating your boundary to her means nothing.
Enforcing your boundary has weight. If she suffers consequences for dishonoring your boundary......so be it. If she doesn't have consequences, but it protects your respect, dignity, emotional feelings......then that's the point/reason for the boundary.
Don't restate your boundary, as if it is a threat to her. Every time you say it and don't back it up, you weaken the boundary...….b/c you are proving it that it's really not a boundary at all.
So we are stuck at home due to the weather.
WW has been giving me a hard time all day about not helping her. WW got stuck getting in the driveway. I was getting my boots on to go help. But she came in demanding help. She didnt ask, she demanded. "You need to push my car!"
After we got her car inside she again made a comment about how nobody is helping her.
I told WW that she doesnt want me as her H and that she needs to stop getting mad when expectations she hasn't even voiced are not met. I told WW that as long as she is actively disrespecting me and headed down this path, I am unavailable to her. But if she asks nicely I would consider helping if she needs.
WW then demanded that I refinance the house and buy her out or leave. I advised her that I choose to do neither. So she again threatened L. I told her that her threats will not make me do what she wants.
I wasnt arguing or raising my voice and yes I probably said too much but I was not validating her bullsh*t. WW again demanded i move out. I said no. I told her that she is welcome to leave and that everyone would be fine if she left. This is actually the truth. Our kids have expressed that they want WW to be the one that leaves.
Also, WW is going to end up paying me. I'm sure I could offer to not have her pay if she gives up the equity in the home.
WW starts messaging me after she goes upstairs. Says I was being hateful. I told her I'm sorry if she feels that way.
WW says "you honestly think we are staying M?"
I responded again with "I told you before that I do not want a D, however if that is what will make you happy I will not stop you."
WW responded with "you saying that stuff to me shows the kids you dont give a sh*t". I responded saying "I'm confident our children know I care".
I feel that the only true boundary I can have with IHS is not being her friend and not making myself available to her for anything. That's really it. Beyond moving out I really dont know what else to do besides go dark. Unfortunately when we get stuck at home like this we end up interacting. WW wants to play like all is normal.
My legal benefits kicked in. I know have the ability to hire an attorney for $0. I will retain them tomorrow.
Hey ST...
IHS was the hardest thing I did during the D. You have to really put the AS IF mindset into full action and always treat your spouse like the store clerk. Polite, to the point, but not friends.
Boundaries included types of interactions, topics of discussion, and showing me disrespect. The consequences were leaving the room and going NC.
It is HARD to maintain. Extremely hard. I wish I could tell you that it gets easier but it didn't in my sitch.
It is HARD to maintain. Extremely hard. I wish I could tell you that it gets easier but it didn't in my sitch.
Taking your potential R out of the equation, did you feel that an IHS strengthens a person better than if one person moved out? I'm kind of in an IHS situation now, but I make myself as unavailable as I can. It's been torture, especially in the last 6 months and while I feel that my progress has been slower than I liked, I feel that the changes are taking on a more true and permanent form.I feel that it would be harder for me to backslide on those changes.
What do you think?
Many people here advocate staying in the MH and taking over the MBR. Even my L told me to stay in the MH. I agree in some circumstances. I did the best I could until it was clear that it was dangerous. I owned the MBR, but in the end I could not maintain my sanity or my safety.
IHS is a potentially high risk situation with a wayward. They can be volatile and can do literally anything to get their way.
I did not know it at the time, but XW's OM actually told her to bruise herself, call the cops, and have me arrested for domestic abuse. She refused to bruise herself and report a false assault, but did call the cops. The officers that showed up believed me more than her because she was obviously off her rocker.
After that I secretly packed up all of my stuff and my son's stuff and went to a friend's house. Everyone's sitch is different, though. I hope nobody else here has to go through a similar ordeal.
Once I was out of the MH my DB went to the next level. Everything was easier without her around me. My NC game was amazing. It was much more peaceful. I was able to detach.
Leaving was the right decision for me in my sitch. That doesn't mean it's right for other people, though.
IHS is a potentially high risk situation with a wayward. They can be volatile and can do literally anything to get their way.
It hasn't gotten to that level yet. But I am keeping my eyes and ears open.
Once I was out of the MH my DB went to the next level. Everything was easier without her around me. My NC game was amazing. It was much more peaceful. I was able to detach.
Leaving was the right decision for me in my sitch. That doesn't mean it's right for other people, though.
I struggle with this. Though I am starting to see the benefit of leaving...or having her leave.
Many people here advocate staying in the MH and taking over the MBR. Even my L told me to stay in the MH. I agree in some circumstances. I did the best I could until it was clear that it was dangerous. I owned the MBR, but in the end I could not maintain my sanity or my safety.
IHS is a potentially high risk situation with a wayward. They can be volatile and can do literally anything to get their way.
I did not know it at the time, but XW's OM actually told her to bruise herself, call the cops, and have me arrested for domestic abuse. She refused to bruise herself and report a false assault, but did call the cops. The officers that showed up believed me more than her because she was obviously off her rocker.
After that I secretly packed up all of my stuff and my son's stuff and went to a friend's house. Everyone's sitch is different, though. I hope nobody else here has to go through a similar ordeal.
Once I was out of the MH my DB went to the next level. Everything was easier without her around me. My NC game was amazing. It was much more peaceful. I was able to detach.
Leaving was the right decision for me in my sitch. That doesn't mean it's right for other people, though.
This is why I record every interaction and have cameras set up. She knows the cameras are set up. Honestly IHS is very hard. WE keeps lying. Keeps pretending shes only seeing friends and traveling for work. I know shes getting her ti e with OM in. It seems hopeless to me at this point and IHS is wearing on my sanity badly.
Joe, did you file for D or her? Did she go full tilt girls gone wild when you moved out? IHS makes it very easy to backslide. I dont think my conversation with her was pursuit, but it sure pissed her off that I said I wasnt her friend and that I'm not just going to help her constantly unless she asked nicely.
I was reading Squiggys stitch and he kept applying the five love languages to his stitch. Why would someone apply the love language when the WW is actively in an A? I am still struggling with this detach with love thing. Should I approach it like Squiggy and be available to her to help? I feel that would destroy me emotionally because she would just be taking advantage of me. I am cordial and I am upbeat and happy when around her, but I just leave her alone. I dont ignore her completely. But I dont initiate contact unless necessary.
My WW love language is acts of service. More like acts of slavery lol.
I am truly struggling lately from all of the face to face contact with her. Because of the holidays and the snow I have had more time with her than I wanted. I am going out of town Friday to go visit a friend out of state and will probably visit some family as well.
Do I need to tell WW that I am going out of town?
This situation is nuts. My WW makes great money, we have had ups and downs but we always got along, had a great sex life. She doesnt need me to survive. She literally doesnt. But she wont file for D or leave. That's just nuts to me. Every day that goes by I think "do I even want her back after what she did?" I mean do I? What am I putting myself through?
My kids will hurt and them living at two houses would suck, but I would be able to truly just enjoy myself as a single man. I am stable financially. I am good looking. I already have women asking me out and wanting to date me.
What am I afraid of?
Next step, if she texts you that you are being hateful after you just helped her just ignore it.
You're sending mixed signals because you said this:
I told WW that as long as she is actively disrespecting me and headed down this path, I am unavailable to her.
but you just helped her move the car in.
So she knows that's what you're thinking, now don't tell her again, just show her. And do it kindly, no need to be rude even though she is wanting you to be rude.
The 5 LLs are for couples to interface with each other better. Are you and your W a couple?
When I moved out the OM had free reign of my MH. I'm not sure of the GGW status of my XW at the time. She swears she was only with 2 other men including OM.
My XW BDed and filed basically within the same week. It was very fast.
You have to enforce your boundaries. Just stating them is not enough to protect you. You can't just draw a line down the road. You have to build a median.
ST,
I saw on another thread where you talked to a lot of WS to get their perspective. It seems like you told some examples of WH and their regrets, but not really mentioning any WW. Have you talked to any WW and gotten their perspective?
Next step, if she texts you that you are being hateful after you just helped her just ignore it.
You're sending mixed signals because you said this:
I told WW that as long as she is actively disrespecting me and headed down this path, I am unavailable to her.
but you just helped her move the car in.
So she knows that's what you're thinking, now don't tell her again, just show her. And do it kindly, no need to be rude even though she is wanting you to be rude.
I did yes because I am on the insurance and where it was sitting some idiot would have hit it. lol
ST,
I saw on another thread where you talked to a lot of WS to get their perspective. It seems like you told some examples of WH and their regrets, but not really mentioning any WW. Have you talked to any WW and gotten their perspective?
Yes I work with a few WWs and they all went through the same path, same script. Cheated, BD, split with spouse, a year or so later they felt very bad and tried to get back together with their ex spouse and were denied. On my team here at work, five people have been cheated on.
Out of those five, four of the wayward spouses came back and reconciled. Only one BH moved on and didnt accept the WW back. Every single wayward spouse in all the people I know, eventually tried to rekindle the relationship.
The 5 LLs are for couples to interface with each other better. Are you and your W a couple?
When I moved out the OM had free reign of my MH. I'm not sure of the GGW status of my XW at the time. She swears she was only with 2 other men including OM.
My XW BDed and filed basically within the same week. It was very fast.
You have to enforce your boundaries. Just stating them is not enough to protect you. You can't just draw a line down the road. You have to build a median.
Are my boundaries even enough though? With IHS I literally can only have the boundary of no contact and me not helping.
That does nothing to stop her from seeing OM.
I have a friend that asked who OM was, in trying to find OM on SM he sent me pictures of the accounts. OM has since changed his profile picture to that of him with his W and two grand children.
OM is playing my wife like a fiddle.
OM is playing my wife like a fiddle.
Then it's HIS problem to replace strings.
OM is playing my wife like a fiddle.
Then it's HIS problem to replace strings.
That is for darn sure. Not my monkey. I will be traveling out of state on Friday and coming back Sunday. I can't wait. I got invited by a good friend that I met who went through a similar situation. Going to enjoy my time away from my WW.
ST:
Boundaries are not directly used for you to get your WW back. At all! And they are NEVER ever to be used as any type of punishment.
Boundaries and ENFORCEMENT of boundaries is for your personal safety and peace of mind. You enforce your rules and it makes you stronger. Oh, it will PISS her off! She will HATE you. You will be the worst person in the world. She will say hateful things. Call you an ass. Blah blah. You're not an ass, you are only taking control away from her and the wayward hates losing control of you!
You see, waywards want to control you. They want the benefits of having you there at their disposal. Do her bidding, slave. And be grateful she gives you the crumbs off her napkin while she sleeps with OM.
SHE DOES NOT RESPECT YOU.
When you are stronger with boundary enforcement and no longer a pushover, she can do nothing but respect your boundaries, which results in respecting you by proxy. That alone is not enough to bring her back, but it is a good start for getting your balls back.
Just wanted to comment about the part where I talked about getting your balls back.
All waywards have our junk in their possession. Some of it is voluntary and normal to a point during a MR. But at some point we gave them too much, they took too much, and then took us for granted. Then they took advantage of us.
So don't take it personally.
ST,
I saw on another thread where you talked to a lot of WS to get their perspective. It seems like you told some examples of WH and their regrets, but not really mentioning any WW. Have you talked to any WW and gotten their perspective?
Yes I work with a few WWs and they all went through the same path, same script. Cheated, BD, split with spouse, a year or so later they felt very bad and tried to get back together with their ex spouse and were denied. On my team here at work, five people have been cheated on.
Out of those five, four of the wayward spouses came back and reconciled. Only one BH moved on and didnt accept the WW back. Every single wayward spouse in all the people I know, eventually tried to rekindle the relationship.
That is insane to think about and seems like the probability is extremely high?! I still can’t see my WW doing it and have no expectations that she will. I’m almost hoping in a year that she does and I can say to her that I’ve moved on. Too little too late for YOU this time!
In the case of the people I know, the WS either came back or came back too late.
So Joe was talking about how my boundaries will piss WW off. They sure did when I stated them. WW was getting comfy in her cake and I seem to have woken her out of that comfort zone. Yesterday WW was super quiet and meek. Today I got up to get to work and WW saw me and said with a very pitiful voice "good morning". I just said hi, packed up lunch and left.
I'm going out of town tomorrow. Looking forward to it.
Doing ok today. Still planning on my out of town trip with my friends. God some news from my mom. My grandma, who is 100 years old, is not doing very well and will most likely pass soon.
That being said, my parents are both upset with my WW, but they still love her as their DIL and have no issues inviting her to things. When my grandma passes, should I invite WW to the funeral? Or should she not be invited because she removed herself from my family and I?
That being said, my parents are both upset with my WW, but they still love her as their DIL and have no issues inviting her to things. When my grandma passes, should I invite WW to the funeral? Or should she not be invited because she removed herself from my family and I?
I wouldn't give the invite to her. If other members of your family invite her then there is nothing else you can do about that.
Up to WW what she does with the invite.
When my grandma passes, should I invite WW to the funeral?
Was your W close to your grandma? If so, you might just let W know the sitch.
What about your kids? Can they visit your grandma before she passes?
Yes she was close to grandma. I wont invite her. I'll take the kids in the next couple of days. I visited grandma tonight. Shes tough. I would say within weeks here.
Hey ST, I'm really sorry to hear about your grandmother. I hope you're doing OK.
Hey guys. Thanks Joe. Grandma has her ups and downs. She will pass soon. It's ok, she lived a very long life and is the matriarch for 12 kids, 30+ grand kids and dozens of great grand kids.
I am traveling out of state. I feel really good lately. Ever since I dropped weight I feel like a new man. Every day that goes by I find myself asking myself "why was I settling for what WW was barely giving me?" I am so much more of a catch than I thought.
Good ST. That’s the attitude to keep. Go on with that.
Thanks nef. I feel so much better than I have in a very long time.
Journaling.
I'm out of town still. Took a very scenic drive in my car. Really cool. Met some people. I have been talking to everyone. Like everyone. Getting to know people, asking them what they do etc. People like talking and meeting new people. Hmmm who would have thought lol.
Anyway. Feeling great emotionally and mentally.
Kind of got bombarded with texts from WW and kids for no reason at all. I told kids I was going out of town. S11 had a bday party to go to and I set it up for d16 to drove him.
For some reason the relative having the party, even after i told the. D16 would take s11, since ww wouldn't, messaged ww asking.
So ww messaged asking if I was taking s11. I'm like for frick sake I'm trying to get away from the chit chat. I text d16 AMD ask "hey why is WW asking me if I'm taking s11, did you not tell her what we talked about?" Of course ww messages "d16s not your messenger!" So I waited a bit and responded "I set this up with d16 and s11 and relative, no reason to be contacting me!"
Then even though i told s11 and d16 where i would be in general, i got texts from them asking specifically where i was and what i was doing. Most likely ww trying to figure out where I am and who I'm with.
No I will not explain where I am at and who im with to ww. She is home with the kids so why in the world would she care?!?!
Insert Twilight zone music here...
You keep that GAL. You are living your life and enjoying it. You don’t need to report to no one, wtf...
Oh absolutely. Going back home today. Kind of bummed I have to leave. But I'll see my kids. That's always a plus.
Back home. Still flying high on my good weekend. Man I feel amazing. Need to keep this up.
Hi life, nice to finally meet you!!
That’s awesome ST!!! Love the attitude!! (((ST)))
Ok. So I have managed to not physically see WW since last Thursday.
WW gets home and I'm here because I'm really tired. WW immediately in my face complaining about me. Asking what I'm spending my money on, assuming I'm doing something bad that I'm hiding from her.
I tried to get away and she wouldn't relent. I was going to leave but want to spend time with s11.
I had gone dancing a few months ago at a gay club. They have a great DJ. It's not only gay. Who cares? I'm not gay. I ran into BIL and he told her. But the thing is I told her I saw him two months ago. So she starts like smirkly giving me [censored] about it.
I just asked her to leave me alone. Again and again. Told her I will not allow her to mistreat me and will not speak with her when shes treating me like this.
So she says "oh you want me to believe you changed?"
I said "no, I dont. I dont care anymore. I'm done. Our relationship is over. I'm done" and she responds with "you care if I think you changed!".
I said "listen, I want you to listen and understand me, you cheated on me, you continue to mistreat me, we are done and therefore my business and what I do with my time is none of your business or concern, so again, leave me alone."
She responded with ya you say your done but watch tomorrow you wont be done. I have not pursued her in a very long time.
I just walked off.
That being said. I'm done. I cant do IHS anymore. I just can't. Also, I dont want WW back. I really dont. I'm done. Yes I'll always love her, but she will never change and i cant waste anymore of my precious time with this woman and in this house.
I allowed her to calm down and i told her that I will be happy to move out and give her what she wants provided we have an attorney draft up a custody agreement and she agree in that agreement to refinance the house and buy me out.
Her eyes got very red. She "almost " cried. But I just walked off as she said ok. I will see my attorney Wednesday. So I'll have him draft something.
No more of this back and forth. I need to remove myself from her physically.
Stay strong! Keep your head up! It is going to work out.
Sounds like you handled the convo really well ST. I would suggest giving yourself a time out to think about it before rushing out to see a L though. Act from a position of calm and clear thought rather than as a reaction to her temper tantrum.
Hi AS.
I was considering this all weekend. WW has always treated me like this. Always critical and mean about it. Relentlessly condescending.
I need to get out of here. She is stressing me out badly.
Take your time to let anger go away. Detach some more. Feed only your monkeys ST, get out of confrontations.
Stay strong there man!!!
Hi AS.
I was considering this all weekend. WW has always treated me like this. Always critical and mean about it. Relentlessly condescending.
I need to get out of here. She is stressing me out badly.
Well you do sound like you are coming from a place of calm, so do what you need to do to save yourself!
Going to be some major change but my mental health will be great.
And you need to be a healthy parent
I agree.
After my WW ambushed me and tried to argue about pretty much everything I played games with my son for a bit. But WW stayed downstairs. I dont want to be around her at all. So I went back in the MBR and read like I usually do.
I ended up getting a call from a very nice young woman that I had met. I was chatting with her just about work and her looking for a job. I'm trying to help her get in with my employer. Very nice young woman who is 13 years younger than I am. She lives out of state, knows about my sitch etc. I'm not pursuing anything right now obviously. Shes respectful of me not wanting a relationship right now.
I dont know if WW heard me on the phone or not. I dont really care, but I get a knock on my door before WW goes to bed just so she could ask me if I was going to sleep soon.
I'm like "uh why?" She replied that she "just wanted to know." Good thing I have no desire to figure out why shes oddly asking these questions. These WW are just all over the place.
Women test men.
WW has always treated me like this. Always critical and mean about it. Relentlessly condescending.
I need to get out of here. She is stressing me out badly.
She is testing you. Pass the test.
Understand this and change the way you respond.
Women test men.
WW has always treated me like this. Always critical and mean about it. Relentlessly condescending.
I need to get out of here. She is stressing me out badly.
She is testing you. Pass the test.
Understand this and change the way you respond.
Oh I did a 180. I used to get sucked right in and would yell as much as she did and scream etc. I have no desire to do that now. I don't ever want to do that again. I refuse to engage in that behavior. My WW will not stop doing that, ever. So I will remove myself from the situation so that I don't have to deal with it.
My WW will not stop doing that, ever.
How do you know this?
Because she has been like this for 21 years and I don't trust her as far as I can throw her!
Because she has been like this for 21 years and I don't trust her as far as I can throw her!
True that past behavior is the best predictor of future behavior. I am sure she predicts your future behavior based off your past behavior, but you are changing. This will confuse her. You drop the rope and it is no longer "Fun" for her to pull on it.
Anyway, humans are emotional creatures. Woman typically more than men. It is our job as men not to be "afraid" by a woman's emotions. Just understand how to read them. Reflect them back in word.
"You look angry"
I agree. It seems like she is a spinning top now. Her emotions are all over the place and yes she looks angry all of the time.
I just finished filling out my intake form for my free attorney for D. I spoke with the L and he knows that I don't intend on filing right now or first. I have my consult with him tomorrow.
I just want to make sure I have an L in case WW goes nuts. WW has told me several times she wants this to be amicable. I want the same provided it goes to D, which I am sure it will.
I just want out. I will be fine on my own. WW will have to pay child support to me.
I just posted this to another thread, but it might be helpful for you as well:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=47467&Number=2057224#Post2057224
Thanks. I have read that several times and literally created a checklist.
I am loving myself, I have lost 85lbs, I'm working on getting cut, I do a ton with my kids, i do a ton with friends and alone, i started school, I have been reading like crazy. I'm kicking a$$ at work and will be up for a promotion soon. I have been GAL like a madman and going out of town.
Honestly I'm very happy with myself. I just look at my WW now and I'm like wow, why did I think it was ok to be treated this poorly for so long? I mean years of emotional abuse. I'm no angel, but hell I recognized the a$$hole in myself and erased him. I guess I was hoping that me mellowing out, making confident decisions for myself and not fighting with WW may make her try and change. But she just got worse and worse and then the A. She doesnt want me. Fine. I want me. My life wants me. I am 100% happier when I am not with her.
These boards are awesome. I would still be spinning in circles if I didnt find them.
Journaling,
Got up today, slept well. Didnt have a chance to make my bed ugh. I said bye to S11 and I'm about to meet my L. Ww came home last night after work and was in the same hateful mood. I just kept calm and limited my responses.
I'm just getting situated with this L. He is retained. Just going to talk.
Spoke with the L. WW and I can file as no fault and assets will be divided 50 50 and custody 50 50 for very minimal cost. WW makes quite a bit more than I do, has more 401K, more stocks etc. My L advised that I could take a cash settlement from the WW instead of having to divy up the retirement etc. I am thinking that WW can refinance the house and give me the equity and also give me a cash payment with her bonus.
The L did sense that I have a smidgen of hope in me and said that he thinks that its wise that I deal with this at the pace I want to. AKA don't just jump on it and file myself.
So that being said, should I try and approach the WW to see if she can agree to just file together? When the time comes?
So that being said, should I try and approach the WW to see if she can agree to just file together? When the time comes?
Only if you want to divorce her. And if you did, you would have filed already. So give her time and space. Take your time and space to heal, grow, and improve yourself.
So that being said, should I try and approach the WW to see if she can agree to just file together? When the time comes?
Only if you want to divorce her. And if you did, you would have filed already. So give her time and space. Take your time and space to heal, grow, and improve yourself.
Yes, time and space for both of you...
You can´t step back once you show her your cards...
Ok. Thanks guys. No I am not doing anything at this moment. I have a hard date set for my limit where I would consider it emotionally unhealthy for me to be hanging around.
I will just keep doing me and hanging out with the kids.
ST,
Just wanted to tell you that you are doing a great job with the turn around. Keep it going and keep your chin up.
Thanks Adam. I actually feel really good about myself. I haven't even had an urge to be hurt or sad lately.
Journaling,
Been kind of lazy the last few days. Work has just been insane so I am absolutely spent by the time I get home. I left work yesterday and went to get a piece of trim on my car fixed and as I was waiting WW messaged me asking if i was coming home after work. It was a direct question so i responded with no. WW asked what time and I gave an estimated time.
Then WW started calling me over and over. I needed my phone so I answered and she said "you need to stop ignoring my texts!" WTF I literally just actually responded to you WW.
WW then tells me she has "people" in town and wanted to go to dinner with them. I just said "ok, go". Again no clue why she would care when I would be home or why she would even care if I knew she would want to go to dinner but oh well. I guess it was sort of logistic related so my kids weren't home alone even though she had zero issue in the past with them being home alone.
Anyway. No arguing or anything which is good. I cooked dinner last night and just enjoyed my kids company. Spoke with D16 last night and she asked me when I was going to start dating lol. D16 is pissed at WW and 100% feels that I should have already filed. I just responded with "all in good time".
Going to be another very busy day at work. I hope I can get to the gym.
Journaling,
Is it wrong that I have been seriously considering filing for D myself? I am not mad, upset, resentful or sad right now. I am really just feeling like I want to be single and enjoy my life. I have slept on it and slept on it. Yes my sitch is young. But I'm going to be 39 this year. Do I want to spend the rest of my 30s hoping for something that's not there to come back? Do I even want to bother with trying to piece?
I'll be honest and admit that conflict and arguing happened often due to both my lack of communication and WWs. Should I be happy that this is an out? I mean I have a [censored] ton of life left and yet life is so so precious. I stand next to my WW and feel no draw, no attraction or love.
I just want to be happy and I haven't been for a very long time.
I don’t think it is wrong ST. In fact, I would give anything to stand next to my WAH and feel no draw, no attraction and no love. If that is how you truly feel and it is what she says she wants, than maybe it is for the best. However, if there is a part of you that is still not sure, then there is no rush. It is a big decision.
I want to be happy too. It’s a process.
SoTorn,
You seem to be speaking from a place of quiet reflection. Since there is no immediate rush, I suggest you do spend at least a few more weeks in this contemplative mode.
Go with your gut - but a long-term gut feeling.
Wishing you peace to identify what you want.
Thanks Yail. I plan on giving myself a bit more. I haven't done anything. I just dont really feel like staying and hoping is worth it for my happiness.
It's nice not arguing. I enjoy my solitude. We shall see.
Take your time ST, give yourself some rest. It´s up to you from now on. And you deserve respect.
Why do you think divorce will bring you happiness that you can’t find on your own now?
Is it wrong that I have been seriously considering filing for D myself? I am not mad, upset, resentful or sad right now. I am really just feeling like I want to be single and enjoy my life.
Well like Amoafwl said your path to enjoying life isn't tied to D. Maybe you have a personal belief that you shouldn't date while married which is fine, but after going through something like this you first need to spend some time alone (no dating) to recenter yourself and find out how to love yourself. Usually when I say that someone throws in a stupid masturbation joke but it's a serious issue. After BD and the aftermath we all struggle with liking ourselves again. We have low self-esteem. We think if our spouse of years or decades can't love us then who can. Basically we hate ourselves. We can't jump into another R to "fill that hole" although many of us try. First we have to learn to be happy with who we are again, and satisfied that we don't -need- someone else in our lives even if we might -want- them.
But I'm going to be 39 this year. Do I want to spend the rest of my 30s hoping for something that's not there to come back?
If you are laying awake at night worrying about recon then I promise D won't make that go away. It'll probably replace it with you laying awake at night worrying about whether you made the wrong choice to push the D through. And 39 is nothing to worry about, I was 50 at BD and I've had a very full and exciting life since S and D.
I just want to be happy and I haven't been for a very long time.
Sit down and make a list of reasons you haven't been happy and things that you think will make you happy. I imagine D won't fix the reasons you aren't happy, and won't prevent you from doing the things you think will make you happy but maybe it will. But regardless, the list should give you a game plan moving forward.
I agree with the last two posts. You have to be happy with yourself. I am turning 50 this year and have been in my sitch for 8 months since I learned of A. Not sure where we are now as OM is out of the picture because A just played out and fizzled over a month ago. Honestly I don't care and have the same feelings you do when I am near my WW.
Right now I see it as a business relationship, she doesn't want to leave and I can't force a D but what would that really do right now. Would I like to be in a meaningful R right now...not sure of that either if I am ready for it. I know I just want to be happy and I can do that on my own, want to see my kids happy...and I can contribute to that. 50% of the anger and hostility in the past was generated by me and now that I have no interest in caring about what WW does so those feelings have past and I'm good.
Does it suck cohabitating? Yes. Can I deal with it? Yes, I'm a mature adult. Have I pursued other women recently and had some good times? Yes. I never strayed in 18 years of M until I found myself again and was fired as a husband and feel as I have done nothing wrong. The women that I have talked to were given full disclosure and understood exactly where I was at. Don't get me wrong I'm not prowling every day but if there if a situation arises I do the right thing.....we deserve to be happy....doesn't take a D to start living again!
New Thread:
Dealing with a WW and finding my happiness pt. 5