New thread- Newcomer pre-bomb drop

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2795338#Post2795338

Link to previous thread.

Ok, she�s home from work, told her we need to wait till after Christmas to make any moves. I know that I�m handicapping myself by not making her face consequences immediately, but I think getting my kids through Christmas with no drama is more important right now.

Didn�t talk about sleeping arrangements, but I�m not leaving my bed. That�s for certain.

I have not been following, but just skimmed your thread. Just to be clear, MWD does not support exposing the A.

Originally Posted by Bern19

Ok, well guess I have nothing to lose at this point.

Best post I have read in a long time. Thanks for sharing.

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Told him to leave my wife alone, and if he ever talks to her again that I would tell his wife.

Nice boundary

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I facebook messaged his wife anyway since he ignored my request to leave my wife alone.

Nice follow through.

Just be aware that they may go deeper undercover. Are you still the safety net?

Originally Posted by sandi2

Don't leave the house four days before Christmas.
Focus on your children.
Stop interacting with her. She does not care about your feelings, so STFU.
After Christmas, you need to decide what you will do.

Can't beat that advise.

Sorry you have to deal with this during the holidays.

Originally Posted by Bern19

Didn�t talk about sleeping arrangements, but I�m not leaving my bed. That�s for certain.

If I was in your sitch, I would not let her into the MB. I would calmly pack her stuff up and make the MB ALL MINE.

Do not leave the MB or the MBR or the MH. Are you in a fault state? That's important to have evidence, so cards, close chest any order.

I am tougher and harder on cheating than almost any other poster here, it's horrible and marks the end of an M. Of course there can be an M2.

Currently there are two views on exposing an A, yes and no. It's like being on a bus you either are or aren't.

If you are going to say you will call, it out if OM doesn't leave WW alone then you must do it. It's a boundary. And you did.

I do sense lots of ultimatums which if you lay them out then you will have to act or lose respect. So if you put yourself in ultimatums then follow through. I think boundaries can be stepped they don't have to straight to number 1 immediately.

This WW is truly wayward when she violates her home for a quick or not so quick screw. Frankly she does not deserve to be living in a home she treats as a bordello. Nasty, in a place her family have their family meals, just simply crummy in all ways. Skanky in every sleazy way I can think of when her children eat there. Nauseates me completely. Passive aggressive disregarding of her home and family life? Disrespecting at best.

You may find detachment with the emotion of disgust. Christmas or not, it's rotten behaviour. And there has been much of that here on this board.

What a crappy OM, sleaze bag of douche.

OK V: say what you think, why don't you?

Frankly nothing, nothing you have ever done is responsible for her choices which are skewed and way out. Honey it's all on her, every single lying word is hers. However this works out this isn't you, you can hot coal yourself and improve in every way but it's for you and your future. There are choices and hers is a dumb one.

And go get tested, make a point of it and let her know you have. STDs can rot your brain and nethers, it's not so good.

Go see an L, get to know your position on it. At the moment you are the stable one in the family, be clear she may lose her job if her work discover the PA, it's often the woman seen as the skanky one not the guy as the sleaze bag. One or other could be accused of harassment. It's no fun bag of wax.

Have the best Xmas you can have and as soon as possible stand firm on those ultimatums.

Enjoy your children and your Xmas to the extreme.

V

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So she�s been blowing up my phone with bug long texts about how she�s sorry, but I did this or I did that and that�s what led her down this road.

She is not sorry. How do I know? B/c WW's don't want to take responsibility for their sh't. She wants to blame her H.

Look, I don't think you need to be sharing some type of couple's counseling right now. If the counselor is having you discuss boundaries, etc., in her presence......I just don't think it's as effective, not to mention it kind of gives her a one up on what to expect. It's okay if you want individual counseling, but I think you need to stop attending sessions together for now.

Update time.. We had plans Friday night to have some of her work friends over for dinner. After all that happened earlier that day I figured she would have cancelled, but she texted me and asked if she should. I didn't reply right away, but finally did and said they could still come. Probably not a great decision. I ended up getting super drunk... Blackout drunk, which I haven't done since college. Well I guess the wife wanted to look through my phone to see who was helping me keep tabs on her. From what she said, I wouldn't give her my pass code or let her use my finger to unlock it. She told me all this on Saturday morning. She was keeping my phone until I gave her the code and let her look through it. I wasn't in a very pleasant mood, so I told her tuff, she could keep it, and I left.

I just needed some space, so I drove around, got some breakfast and just sat and read. When I got home she was gone. She called one of our kids and asked them to give me the phone. She said she had my phone and wanted to see what I had on there that I was hiding. I told her to come home and we'd look at it together. When she got home I true to unlock it, but she had tried to guess the pass code too many times and the phone had locked down as a security feature. The only way to open it back up is to restore it from the latest backup on itunes. Problem is, the only back up I had done was right before Thanksgiving, on my work computer. Because of the holiday I can't get to my work computer so no restore until Wednesday the 26th. She was mad as a hornet. She said she was convinced that one of her friends was helping me and she had to know who it was. I was so done with the whole fiasco that I told her no one was helping me. The reason I didn't want her to have my phone is she would see that I was tracking her using one of the kids phones. That I knew she was sneaking around town to meet him for 8 mins at the gas station, 13 mins at the marketplace, 15 mins at the grocery store, etc... She said that he had approached her and wanted to rekindle their affair., but she told him she wasn't interested. So why was she stopping off to chat with him???? She doest know. I told her it didn't matter, that even while attempting to be on her best behavior she still couldn't be honest with me.

I could actually see her switch gears and go on the offensive. She was the one that was betrayed because I spied on her. She said ill never be able to trust her and that ill always be wondering. I said yup, so where does that leave us? She actually said I guess well have to see if either if us can get past this. No, really that's what she said. She isn't sure if she can get past me catching her sneaking around town. At that point I knew it was time to stop talking, actually I knew I had made a mistake engaging her at all.

At least I got to stay in my bed. She stayed on the couch. Went to church this morning with the family and just kept to myself. More of the same this afternoon. Only yes or no answers to questions that were about Christmas gifts. Others were avoided or just ignored. I can tell you that Christmas was always my time. I just loved everything about it. Not feel I g it this year. One of the kids is noticing too. Gonna have to step up my game to give them the Christmas they deserve.

My WW pulled the same. I hired a PI and caught her out of town with her boss. One of the things my WW said was "I can't trust you anymore because you hired a PI and had me followed". Some of the sh*t that comes out of their mouths is just so ridiculous. Yeah, I am the untrustworthy one for catching you WW, not you for betraying your vows, family, H and kids!!

Hi Bern,

prolly back off on the alcohol usage. I'm sure you know this.

With the phone, did she offer to let you look through hers, or was it just her wanting to look through your phone? I don't think you should have agreed to let her look in the first place. It's ridiculous.

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I could actually see her switch gears and go on the offensive. She was the one that was betrayed because I spied on her.

Barf. She was betrayed? Yea OK.

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She said ill never be able to trust her and that ill always be wondering. I said yup, so where does that leave us? She actually said I guess well have to see if either if us can get past this. No, really that's what she said.

OK, well I think this is actually true.

I also agree with what you said that you need to engage less. Validate, shut down those arguments, and move forward.

hi Bern,

First, enjoy the holidays for the kids and for your own self. Step back and allow yourself some breathing room, pretty much the 4 things Sandi last said in the previous thread. You said this is normally your time. Happiness is what you make it, don't let her rob this from you man. This should still be your time. Set the tone for the kids. Show her she will not bring you down.

So she is still trying to cover up all those meet-ups/hook-ups, saying it was to let OM know the A was over? And on top of this, she has a list of friends who know so she is trying to figure out which one betrayed her? wow... She is such the victim. I wonder what he went into the store to pick up since they were already there.

Be strong Bern, don't let your thoughts about not believing in D affect your judgement. Don't settle. You got the ball rolling now, give yourself until after the holidays. if you have a list of things you feel like saying to her or doing, feel free to share them here for advice.

I'm one of the guys in an IHS, I'm codependent NGS. I'm moving out in 5 months when we sell the house so the IHS is not indefinite. I'm also free from her in the sense that I'm okay with if we D. I know life goes on. We both deserve to be happy. I have too many D'd people I know in my life who are still great parents. Less on her, more on you and the kids.

I've read a lot of sitches here, much of what people say wont change because the patterns don't change and what we need to do for ourselves don't change.

Happy Holidays.

Keep your head up. I am also another on IHS. My WW lives in the room above me. My WW is not remorseful and wants D. I have accepted that. I have also accepted that I deserve so much more and so much better than what WW can provide me.

It hurt badly and I still get the waves of sadness, anger etc. But I am GAL like a mad man and that helps so much. I will be the lighthouse, steady in the rocks and my light, for the moment, is shining on the path for my WW to see, if she wants to change her ways and work on us, but that light will not shine on forever.

I expect my WW to file for D after the holidays. Again I accept that. I am enjoying my life and my relationship with my kids. I know that there are plenty of women in this world that would find high value in a loyal, hard working man with a good career that has a high sense of morals, values and acts with integrity.

Thanks everyone and Merry Christmas. I'll admit today had been rough. One minute I'm laughing and hiking with my kids, the next I'm sneaking off to the bathroom so no one sees me cry. The sadness just comes in waves. Mostly after I realize this is likely our last Christmas together as a family.

I'm started to come to grips with the fact that my wife just isn't able to give me what I need to be happy, and I'm no longer willing to settle for the crumbs she's able to spare. I'm not interested in spending the rest of my life with someone that finds it necessary to keep so much if themselves and their emotions a secret.

Anyway, just wanted to say thanks for the support and to wish all of us that are struggling with a WS a Merry Christmas.

Originally Posted by Bern19

I'm started to come to grips with the fact that my wife just isn't able to give me what I need to be happy, and I'm no longer willing to settle for the crumbs she's able to spare. I'm not interested in spending the rest of my life with someone that finds it necessary to keep so much if themselves and their emotions a secret.

This really hit home for me. Although I haven't given up totally on my H, I've realized that I don't want to settle either. I've come so far in my self-awareness, and he remains stuck. I want to remain strong and not settle - with H or anyone. We all deserve better than to settle.

Ok, well, got through Christmas... it was rough but ended well, spending time with the kids putting together stuff they got and just laughing and joking around. I spent the day after working in my bedroom, am trying to get organized Incase I need to move. The fact that our bedroom was ground zero for Christmas present hiding combined with the fact that our room is always a mess made it a good project for the day. I was purging lots of clothes that no longer fit due to my dramatic weight loss over the last year. I guess she wanted to keep an eye on me because she ended up coming in and started to organize her closet and dresser too. At first I left trying to keep some space, but realized she was keeping me from getting done what I wanted to do, so I ended up back in there. She tried to make small talk, so I didn�t ignore her, but kept it very short and to the point. Very unlike me by the way. I�ve been known to talk more than I listen.

Late last night as we were getting ready for bed she asked me if she should go to our MC session by herself today. I told her that was probably best. On one hand I�d like to be there as I�m certain she won�t be 100% truthful with our counselor. that won�t change if I�m there either, but at least I could call her out on her BS. But then I remembered I�m just trying to control something I have no control over. She�s either regretful and wants to find out what�s going on inside her brain, or she doesn�t. I can�t make her want to find out just like I can�t make her be remorseful or repentant.
So she�s going by herself.

Ay this point I�m committed to GAL and working my 180�s. I need to double down on detachment. I still struggle with not feeling like I�m being kind while doing it. I can feel the resentment building the more I think about how I�ve been cheated out of the last couple years while she was sneaking around with this scumbag. Then I start to realize maybe the OM isn�t the only scumbag in this situation. I now see how to use disgust as fuel for detachment. Just want to make sure it doesn�t openly come across that way.

I�ll update once/if she fills me in on her session...

Originally Posted by Bern19

she asked me if she should go to our MC session by herself today. I told her that was probably best.

I love that response.

Ok, well we haven�t spoken about the MC session she went to without me on Thursday. I can sense that she is waiting for me to ask her how it went or something similar.... I�m not taking the bait. Too often I bail her out by being the one to bring up the 800# elephant in the room. Gonna just let this play out and see what happens.

Great workout with 2 of my boys this morning... GAL

Well, it�s NYE. Haven�t spoken with wife about anything relationship based since the discovery of her still sneaking around to see the OM. She went to our scheduled MC session by herself and didn�t bring it up afterwards. Early on, I felt like she was waiting for me to bring it up. Now I get the feeling she likes that I appeared to have �dropped it� and am moving on. We have friends coming tonight to celebrate the New Year, but I�ll be honest, I�m not looking forward to it. She gets to play the everything is great with us game and I just want to scream. I know that I�m supposed to be working on detachment but it�s hard when your stuck putting on a show for your kids� sake. Now that the holidays are over, I need to make a change. I don�t want to leave my home, nor do I want to split up my kids. But can I spend the rest of my life in a loveless, sexless marriage to someone that is all but guaranteed to hurt me again?

Well it's been almost a month since my last post. I said I was going to wait a month to see how things looked and felt, and I can tell you it's still the same. Although my wife claims we are working on fixing our marriage and is going to IC and MC with me, I know that she is still communicating with the OM. I have stopped all my spying and snooping around as I just couldn't take listening to her lie to me about where she was or who she's with. I've been avoiding all relationship conversations, have been working on my detachment, GAL, and have also started reading NMMNG. Lots of stuff in there that hits home.

So, this morning, I'm lying in bed while she gets ready for work and I realize she got in the shower and left her smartwatch on her nightstand. Now she had been getting better about not taking her iPhone and watch with her everywhere, but I've noticed that lately she's had a pretty tight grip on her devices. I thought, what the hell, let�s see if she changed her password? Nope, still the same. So I see her messages are up, and one of them are from her work friend that recently divorced her husband and shacked up with another of their coworker almost immediately. In fact, one of the texts was about how her husband never had any proof of what they "had done" so she made out in the divorce. Guess they didn't wait to get divorced to together either. Anyway, this is the "friend" that my WW confides in more than anyone. Of all the messages I could have read, this was the one that would get me the most inside info. Even though I agonized over whether to snoop or not, I eventually broke and took a look... Turns out, that after our little blow up when I caught her meeting up with the OM at the grocery store parking lot right before Christmas, her friend set her up with a secret phone for her to use so that I and the OM's wife (she knows my wife's regular #) wouldn't know they were still talking. I know that they have a system in place to contact each other when us LBS's are suspicious and "watching" them. The most recent conversation was about my wife's IC session that day. The friend asked if she had told the counselor "everything" and the WW replied that she managed to tell her a little bit, but not all. What???? How are you supposed to figure out your life if you're not willing to be honest with your therapist? Who is this person?

As for the OM's wife, he has told her nothing but lies. She still thinks that because he "confessed" and then told their daughter and their parents about the affair, that he has put this mistake behind him and is working on their marriage. I struggle with wanting to tell her that his confession is a bunch of lies. That whether you want to believe it or not, they are still talking and hiding it from us. OM told his wife the affair became physical 2 weeks before I caught them, and they had sex just 3 times. I had been suspicious for so long, that my wife knew not to trot that timeline out, so she went with it had been going on for 2 months. She could tell from the look on my face that I wasn't buying that either. A week or so later, in one of her moments of clarity, she came clean and admitted that it had been physical for almost two years. At the time I thought that was probably accurate. Now, knowing she continues to lie to me, I'm certain that it was probably more like almost 3 years.

So, it's clear that the wife is pretending to be working on the marriage. She hasn't cut off communication with the OM, still doesn't find it necessary to be honest with not only me but isn't even being honest with the therapist in her sessions. Why would you bother to go to counseling if you�re going to manipulate the process? All I can guess is that she is just buying time to get things put into place.

As I�ve said before, my intention was to fight to put this marriage back together. That divorce wasn't an option for us. That you all don't really know my wife, that she's different. She'll be able to continue to work with him and it will be OK. It became crystal clear that it doesn't work that way right before Christmas. So, I need to make a fundamental change in how we interact. While I thought I was doing good at GAL & detachment, I obviously need to up my game.

So, do I even bother confronting her about this? She'll not admit to anything until I tell her exactly how I know. It's almost like she thinks that if I don't have concrete evidence to show her that I know what's going on, nothing is really going on. It's absolutely maddening to be in one of those conversations! Honestly, I don't want to even talk about it, I just want to be done with her for a while. How do I do that if she refuses to leave the home? I've told her I will not accept an in-house separation, but I still don't want to leave my home. Is it acceptable to just tell her "I've said it before and I mean it still- I will not share you with him, and I will not share my bed with you while he is part of your life". ? I guess I�m trading my boundary of not accepting an in-house separation for the chance to stay in my home.

I just could use some guidance. Let the 2x4's to the face commence.

Never reveal your sources of intel. Do not reveal what you know. Just reveal that you do know.

"Stop. We both know you are lying" goes a long way.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2045336#Post2045336

Thank you R2C. That�s a great link. I�ll spend a bunch of time in there for sure....

As for reveling my I tell I�ve made that mistake too many times before. I think I now realize that is her way of getting control back. She must know what I have on her so she can start to develop the �spin� she puts on it to make it seem like it�s not that bad. It�s never as bad as I make it out to be. I have to stop giving her that intel and let her wonder what�s going on for once.

We have been going to a MC since December, and she�s been going to see our counselor for IC as well. It dawned on me that she�s probably going on her own to help set the agenda for our next couples session. I had been talking with a local pastor, but during the holidays we lost touch as his schedule gets insane that time of year. So, I reached out to our marriage counselor about me coming in for a individual session. My question is, do I out the fact that the ww is lying to both of us and is still having contact with the OM?

I wouldn't bother going to IC just to out your W as still cheating. Just do it in MC and save yourself the time. Follow R2C's boundaries for what he wants from his woman. If you're ready to file, file. If not, move on without filing.

Thanks ovrrnbw. I hear you. No matter what the next step for me, I won't be the one filing. I plan on making her do all the heavy lifting. I did meet with a Lawyer months ago, but more time was spent on what he will and won't do and how much it will cost than on advice on getting ready. I think I need to meet with a couple more. Regardless of my next plan of action, I will not help her with the process in anyway. I think it will do her good to have to do this on her own.

As for outing her to the therapist, that's not the reason I'm going. I do have other issues I'd like to discuss, the main one being how I've been working on myself for the past year. Working on being a better husband, helping more around the house, getting back into shape... You know, all the stuff she said I was failing at. I jumped in the deep end and got to work. In doing so it seems I've found myself. Not sure when it happened, but I started to realize that while I could have been a better husband, she certainly could have been a better wife. Neither one of us was doing a very good job of meeting each others needs. I guess during those couple of months where she led me to believe we were working on reconciling, it dawned on me that I felt I was making all this progress and truly felt like I was becoming a better husband. Yet I never felt like she was making any progress towards being a better wife or meeting my needs better. Turns out the whole thing was just a sham and she never was working on being a better wife. She was playing a part to help smooth out her home life. I just wondered if it is out of bounds to tell her IC that she is being lied to? Or is that not my place?

The other thing I'm trying to figure out is how to move forward. Do I even tell the wife I know, or do I just go dark?

Why not get your own IC for that?

As for telling on her to the MC, what's the point? It seems like you really want to tell the MC what's going on. The MC's have more experience than us, they know how these things work. The counselors know they are being lied to a lot of the times, do you think that she's going to tell your W to stop lying and that your W would listen? There are business and clinical reasons not to do that.

Just tell your W you won't be with a woman who is an affair. If you do that, it's probably time to kick her out. She is disrespecting you and your family and your marriage. And did you ever out the OM to his W? I know you and him had some discussions before.

And if you can't kick her out or tell her/show her you won't be with a cheater then just go to the moving on part without saying anything.

Then move on, go out with buddies, play sports, go hunting, enjoy your newfound freedom like you were a single guy again. Talk to women, go on adventures, whatever you like.

Bern, I'm sorry about this latest revelation, that had to be very painful to discover. I'm not up on your entire sitch but we often say a WW has to hit rock bottom before things will change for the better. Rock bottom is usually the WAS realizing she has well and truly lost everything and she becomes desperate to get it back and will do anything. We advise that after your spouse has cheated on you, if they want back they have to agree to several things including full transparency on phone and social media. IE- she must be willing to hand over her phone whenever you ask so that you can review her messages. And she has to provide you with all social media passwords so you can check on her activity. If she has truly hit rock bottom she will do this and more. If she hasn't she will accuse you of being controlling.

It sounds to me like your W never hit rock bottom, you let her come back too soon. All she did was go deeper undercover with her shenanigans. She's addicted to OM and the rush of doing something sneaky and it's not going to stop. If it's not physical right now, it's only a matter of time before it starts back up again.

You ask whether you should confront her. Here's the thing, if you confront her she is just going to lie and deflect so what is the point. I hate to say it because this is a marriage-saving site, but I don't think you have a chance of saving your M unless you leave her. If she loses you she may finally hit rock bottom and own the terrible things she's done. Or she may not, so you can't do it unless you are really done yourself and to the point of not caring if she comes back or not. So my opinion is if you confront her, you tell her you know what she's doing and you are done. Tell her you want her to pack her bags and get out. She may refuse, if she does then you go completely dark on her. No chit chat, no going out, no counseling, nothing. If you don't feel you can do this then don't, you have to get to the point where you are fed up and done with her before you can go to this extreme. But I think it's going to have to get to that point before she might wake up.

Thanks AnotherStander. I agree with what you said about letting her come back too soon. Sandi and others warned me about making it being too easy to get back to working on reconciliation. I do know that I'm not willing to share her with him in ANY way. I don't care if she misses him as a friend or whatever lame reasoning she'll use to make it seem like it's not that big of a deal. It's just such a bad deal. She and the OM work for the school district that my kids attend. I keep thinking what happens if they are outed by the OM's wife or in some other public way. How can she not see how destructive that would be for our kids, being the butt of every joke because their mom was caught being a whore. I just can't believe she can't see that.

I think my plan is to just come out and ask her when the last time she contacted him. When she lies, and she will lie, I can tell her that I know she is lying, that I'm done and that I want her to pack her bags and get out. I'm confident she won't leave, and I have ruled out leaving my home, so I'm stuck with her. Hopefully me cutting off contact and limiting her to the OM ( and the little time she can be with him because OM's wife is monitoring him), she'll start to realize that she depends on me for more than she thinks. I guess at this point, I'd just like her to realize that I've been meeting more of her needs than she ever realized, even if we never get past this and get back together.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Why not get your own IC for that?

She has been my IC. She knows my history. I guess it just seems more expedient since i can skip the 2-3 sessions of getting a new counselor up to speed. Plus I'm comfortable with her.

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

As for telling on her to the MC, what's the point? It seems like you really want to tell the MC what's going on. The MC's have more experience than us, they know how these things work. The counselors know they are being lied to a lot of the times, do you think that she's going to tell your W to stop lying and that your W would listen? There are business and clinical reasons not to do that.

I want to tell her that I'm bailing on the reconciling with my wife and done with MC because my wife is continuing with the OM. By telling her that, I'm effectively outing my wife as a liar. I know she confided in her friend that she hasn't been truthful with the IC. Maybe I asked my question poorly. What I was trying to say was if I go to her to talk about the change in our status, is it fair game to disclose, or because my wife hasn't disclosed that am I expected to keep that from the IC?

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

Just tell your W you won't be with a woman who is an affair. If you do that, it's probably time to kick her out. She is disrespecting you and your family and your marriage. And did you ever out the OM to his W? I know you and him had some discussions before.

And if you can't kick her out or tell her/show her you won't be with a cheater then just go to the moving on part without saying anything.

Then move on, go out with buddies, play sports, go hunting, enjoy your newfound freedom like you were a single guy again. Talk to women, go on adventures, whatever you like.

I think this is my plan. I love my wife, but just can't stand looking at her while I know she is lying to me. I don't know if all this will be easier to handle if I don't have to see her all the time, but I'm to the place where I think i'd like to give it a try. Not loving the idea of a separation for the kids sake though. I know the two youngest will be traumatized and the ww will actually believe that their pain is on me. smh.

Originally Posted by Bern19

That you all don't really know my wife, that she's different.

I have read this statement from 100's of posters. Not sure why you think she is so different than all the other lying cheating spouses.

Originally Posted by Bern19

She hasn't cut off communication with the OM

There is way more than "communication" going on. Unless your wife is the ONE unique lying cheating spouse.

Originally Posted by Bern19

That divorce wasn't an option for us.

Not for her, she is getting all her needs met by multiple men. No reason for her to get divorced. One man to meet her physical needs. You to meet her financial and other needs.

Originally Posted by Bern19

So, I need to make a fundamental change in how we interact.

Glad you realize this.

Originally Posted by Bern19

So, it's clear that the wife is pretending to be working on the marriage.

Sounds like she has been doing this for several years now.

Originally Posted by Bern19

She'll be able to continue to work with him and it will be OK.

I doubt it. How many drug addicts can get clean while living with the drug dealer?

Originally Posted by Bern19

Not loving the idea of a separation for the kids sake though.

We are all in agreement here. We all wish that our spouse were logical about this.

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I know the two youngest will be traumatized

Your W is the one doing the destruction to the family.

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and the ww will actually believe that their pain is on me.

Do lots of reading on how to respond to these false accusations from her.

Do not rush anything. Make a plan. Execute the plan. Do not rush. Set boundaries that you can and will enforce.

Do not "decide" on anything with your emotions. Fight this battle with logic.

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Honestly, I don't want to even talk about it, I just want to be done with her for a while. How do I do that if she refuses to leave the home? I've told her I will not accept an in-house separation, but I still don't want to leave my home. Is it acceptable to just tell her "I've said it before and I mean it still- I will not share you with him, and I will not share my bed with you while he is part of your life". ?

But you are sharing her with him! You are sharing your bed with her while he is part of her life! For a guy who doesn't want to talk about it and just be done with her for a while........you sure are thinking of a lot of stuff to say.

You can't reason with crazy, and you can't talk her into being a good wife. She's not your best friend, and you can't trust her. She is seeing the MC so that she can claim she tried everything, "even counseling" and nothing helped to save the M. So, stop attending counseling sessions with her. She is very wayward and she's nowhere close to being ready for MC.

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As for the OM's wife, he has told her nothing but lies. She still thinks that because he "confessed" and then told their daughter and their parents about the affair, that he has put this mistake behind him and is working on their marriage.

Some betrayed spouses are willing to accept whatever the cheater/liar tells them. She may not want you to tell her, b/c she doesn't want to deal with the truth.

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I struggle with wanting to tell her that his confession is a bunch of lies. That whether you want to believe it or not, they are still talking and hiding it from us.

I'm not picking on you, but I am going to get a little harsh, b/c I see LBH's who practically say word for word what you stated above......even by starting their sentence with "I struggle with wanting to tell OM's W". So, here's the truth of your real struggles as I see it. You can't do anything with your WW to make her end things with OM, b/c she has had your b@lls for a long time. You want to tell OM's W b/c you are hoping she can do more with her wayward H than you can do with your wayward W. Maybe I'm wrong, but whenever I see this happen......I get the idea that the LBH is hoping someone else will do the dirty work for him. Then I see where you plan to reveal to the MC in session tonight, in front of your WW.......again, I think you are hoping someone else can be the bad guy, rather than yourself.

I'm not faulting you for trying to get help, Bern. I want you to understand that what you are currently doing is not working. By this point, you are going to need to be a lot stronger and tougher than when you first joined the board. You know why, right?

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As I�ve said before, my intention was to fight to put this marriage back together. That divorce wasn't an option for us. That you all don't really know my wife, that she's different. She'll be able to continue to work with him and it will be OK. It became crystal clear that it doesn't work that way right before Christmas. So, I need to make a fundamental change in how we interact. While I thought I was doing good at GAL & detachment, I obviously need to up my game.

Up your game? You need to completely change the dynamics in this relationship. Take back your b@lls, and stop being a wuss. Who puts up with a W who is sleeping with the guy at work? Why would you think they could continue working together after having an A? And then I see where you actually said you wouldn't have a problem with her missing him as a friend, but you didn't want to share her with him in any way.

What? That "friendship" excuse is a cr@p trap. Do you realize how crazy that sounds to be okay with her missing her AP, as long as it's like missing a friend? ((Bern)) They will never be able to be just friends. NEVER! Do not let her convince you that she thinks of him "only as a friend". That's a lie born out of the deceitfulness of a WW.

As long as you believe you can nice her back, or talk her back, or have someone else do the dirty work........you will lose her to OM or OM#2, 3, etc.

Get fed up and stop trying to keep someone who doesn't want to honor your love. Even after all she's done, you just want to be done with her for a little while? What would it take for YOU to be done with her forever? I'm just curious.

I'm going to share this with you, then I need to close for the night. When I was a wayward W, if my H had gotten fed up with me and decided he wasn't going to waste his life on a loveless, sexless MR with a WW who did not treat him better than I was treating him........and if he had enforced that decision with his actions.....it would have yanked me out of my waywardness so fast I would have had whiplash! In other words, I'm saying if he had dumped me.......was finished with ME....

......of all things......he would have become the most attractive guy on the planet. And, he'd have to show the action, instead of explaining to me what he was doing and giving me details.

I hope you won't leave and stay gone another month without posting.

((hugs))

I think the light bulb has gone off in my brain. It seems over the past couple years I've become much better at talking a great game instead of actually trying to be great. It's a bit scary, but I know what I need to do, I've just let too many things influence me away from doing them. I feel had I been "finished" with her after the initial discovery, or when I learned she was still fabricating ways to "run into" him in public, I would be much better off than I am today. I need to stop using the the thought of my kids being hurt by me leaving as an excuse to continue to allow her to disrespect our marriage. I've redirected that worry about the kids being hurt by me moving on and placed it squarely on her for betting their emotional safety on the idea that no one will find out about her and the OM's affair. If their affair gets blown up publicly, yes it will be embarrassing for the two of them, but l can't waste time worrying about that. What I need to worry about is how my kids would be publicly humiliated. I can't take the chance of them being blindsided by that and ridiculed by their friends for God knows how long...

So it's clear what I need to do. I was ready to do it right before Christmas, but let the idea of ruining my kids' Christmas stop me from action. I said I'd revisit it after the holidays. So now I find myself a month down the road. Nothing has changed other than I know she is still talking with him. Once again I find myself is a situation where I know what I should do. Once again there are circumstances that make me question the timing of it being done. Last time it was Christmas.... now, we have a family vacation coming up that was planned 6 months ago, pre discovery. We are scheduled in mid Feb to take our kids to Disney. The two younger ones have never been and I was looking forward to making some lifelong memories with them. Now from where I sit I have a few options. #1- Lay low & wait till after the vaca to go dark on my ww, continue to work on detachment and GAL. #2 Tell ww that I'm done, right now, and will not be coming with them on vaca. #3- Tell ww that i'm done, and go on vaca anyway and just deal with her as little as I must while we are there. I think I know which one I think is right, but would like some input from others. While I feel like I'm thinking more clearly now, I still would be grateful for some insight from those that have traveled this road before.

Also, I am going to go to my IC session on Saturday. I'm going to let our therapist know that I believe I've had a moment of clarity. That while I've known for some time that I need to stop trying to control a situation i have no control over, I am finally at a place where I feel strong enough to "let go of the rope". I will tell her why. Not because I want her to use her influence on my wife, but so she knows what finally pushed me to stand up for myself and my MR. I will also tell her that I'm done doing joint MC sessions with my wife as we clearly aren't on the same page. I will ask her to continue as my individual counselor, but only if she feels it's appropriate based on the circumstances.

Thanks for the tough love, I know you all probably get frustrated with us that struggle with something that seems so obvious to you. All I can plead is ignorance. Obviously if doing what I thought was right or normal worked, I wouldn't be in this sitch.

Hmmm, well yeah that's a tough one. Knowing what you know I would think it would be kind of tough not to be cold towards her, and if you don't say something she's going to wonder what's up and see it as you being passive/aggressive. So I don't think #1 will work. #2, I would say absolutely not. Go for the kids no matter what. #3, probably the best option. But I would put it to her this way- "we planned this vacation 6 months ago and I am going for the kids. I would prefer that you didn't go, but I will leave that choice up to you."

This isnt easy. I loved my WW so deeply. I truly did. I truly wanted to do everything I could to make her feel valued and appreciated and save my M. At the time I didn't see how badly my WW was treating me. I mean I guess I did but I just thought it was normal. I still loved her and wanted her badly. She was my world.

But she strayed and continues to speak with OM. Therefore, I took that huge step back, focused on myself and my kids and dropped the rope. Now I am solely focused on myself and my kids. My date to move out is coming very quickly. My financial plan will start very quickly once I get my bonus from work here.

I am looking forward to getting past this and moving on from my WW.

You will figure it all out. I really don't know how I dropped the rope so quickly. I listen to the song "Awful Things" from Lil Peep quite often. I guess taking that song to heart really helped me move on. In the song he talks about how the awful things his ex says to him help him detach from her and thanks her for that.

What about option #4? Option #5 and #6 look better as well.

Originally Posted by AnotherStander

Hmmm, well yeah that's a tough one. Knowing what you know I would think it would be kind of tough not to be cold towards her, and if you don't say something she's going to wonder what's up and see it as you being passive/aggressive. So I don't think #1 will work. #2, I would say absolutely not. Go for the kids no matter what. #3, probably the best option. But I would put it to her this way- "we planned this vacation 6 months ago and I am going for the kids. I would prefer that you didn't go, but I will leave that choice up to you."

yeah, i've noticed that my detachment has taken a turn for the worse. I do catch myself being cold towards her now where a month ago, I was happy to just be focused on me. Finding out she was lying is bad, cheating was even worse, but this recent turn where she is pretending to work on the marriage all while continuing contact with OM and lying about it is turning me sour. Maybe that's what it took to knock some sense into me.

I don't know if i could enjoy myself if I go with option # 1, because I'll be resenting her spoiling our vaca with her lies. #3 is what I was leaning towards, but I like the "prefer you didn't go" add on...

Originally Posted by SoTorn

This isnt easy. I loved my WW so deeply. I truly did. I truly wanted to do everything I could to make her feel valued and appreciated and save my M. At the time I didn't see how badly my WW was treating me. I mean I guess I did but I just thought it was normal. I still loved her and wanted her badly. She was my world.

But she strayed and continues to speak with OM.

This sounds so much like me. At first I didn't even consider leaving. I went straight into heavy pursuit. I just figured if I could show her how much I loved her, it would break the spell and she'd fall back into my arms. Now that I have some distance, I too am realizing how poorly she's been treating me. I always felt like if I could just do better or be better, she would notice and would change how she treated me. I guess that's why I was so eager to get into reconciling.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change

What about option #4? Option #5 and #6 look better as well.

I'm willing to listen to any other options. One thing i've realized is I need to stop acting like I can figure this out on my own. I can no longer afford to be the stubborn jerk that refuses to ask for directions or to look at the assembly instructions.

Hey Bern,

Commenting on the part where you said she will be spoiling it with her lies. I know I have a hard time with his too, I'm left in the dark with my wife and sometimes I wished I would know concrete info to mKe some sense of it. You already know what you do so all of this is pretty much reflective of how you control your feelings. 1and3 she's going to be there. Imagine her there already and imagine how you want to be for the kids. Let her do her thing if she wants to tag along but spend that awesome time with the kids. How about from now until then the focus is not on her, how her lies make you feel this way or that, you alrdy know what you know, it won't be new info. Spend time planning how you want to spend those wonderful days with the kids. Just a suggestion. Show her you are moving on.

I don't know best way to deal with her current lying except if you're up front , stop MC, stop pretending, but don't stop living with your kids.

Thanks Adam, I started to catch up on your sitch, I�m only halfway through but it sure sounds familiar. It�s crazy to me how much alike most of our situations are.

I appreciate the thoughts. I�m struggling with the approach when the wife is pretending to work on the marriage. I never really got a bomb drop, I discovered her affair after suspecting it for years. She�s given me the ILYBINILWY, but shortly after made a big production about how she �chooses us� and off to counseling we went. But I never sensed that she was remorseful or even that concerned with how hurt I was. Of course this is all easy to see now that it�s clear she�s still in contact with him. But if you ask her she�ll tell you we are working on the marriage.

I just can�t keep going like this. It�s been 4 months since Dday and I see all this progress I�ve made on myself, yet I don�t see anything promising from her. I�m to the point where I know what I have to do, but like Sandi told you, there is always something else coming up that be can use as an excuse to delay it, but we just have to have faith and do what we�ve come to understand as the best way forward. At least that�s where I see myself now.

Tomorrow I go to see the IC and then the plan is to put the ww on notice. I�m not willing to go on this way. I can�t continue to pretend that we are a big happy family... going out with friends, out to eat as a family, sit together in church on Sunday, etc. I will not be moving out of my home, but I�d prefer not to share my home with her while the OM is still in the picture. I can�t make her leave, but I can stop the charade. Once we get back from our vacation, we�ll revisit the living arrangements. Perhaps once her secret is out, she will be emboldened to move out and experience the freedom she seems to long for. I�ve made my peace with that, well as much as I think I possibly can.

The LBS is often far ahead of the WS in terms of self progress.

How do you plan to put your W "on notice"? Why wait and go play family with her on a vacation and then tell her to get out? You think that will be a fun vacation or something?

Update time- After meeting with the IC on Saturday, she agreed that I have to confront the ww about the continued contact. She made it very clear that she feels I should go on the vacation with my kids, though. So, that left me with two options. Confront the ww now, and deal with the fallout before and while on vacation... IC felt things could be better or worse, It's hard to tell how she will respond. Or, try to keep the lid on this till after we return, taking the time to work on detachment, and then sitting her down when we return. She advised me that it will be hard, and will affect how much fun I have with my kids, but if things don't go well after confronting her, I'm risking the entire vacation. She said only I will know when I can no longer continue the charade. She really seemed to understand my struggle but wanted to make sure I didn't do anything to jeopardize the kids trip.

So, I decided that is what I'll do. Ramp up my GAL and detachment and keep the lid on the info I have. Great plan.... Then yesterday I got a text from OM's wife. She sent me a pic my WW sent to her WH. It's a pic of her with shirt pulled up and grabbing her bra covered breasts. Definitely not a pic she ever sent to me. OM's wife immediately texted my WW and told her to cease and desist. OM's wife didn't tell WW that she contacted me. So, I get home and of course WW didn't say anything. So laying in bed i ask her if she has anything to say. She him-hawed around and finally came clean about OM's wife contacting her about this pic she found. WW claimed it was pre D-day. Time stamp on the pic was 12/1. She claimed that was just from when he screenshot it so he could delete her text. Only problem is you can see the sleeve of her winter coat in the pic. Not too many days in September that she would have needed her winter coat on. (D-day was 10/3). If that wasn't enough, the coat she is wearing in the pic was purchased in late Oct. when we went out of town for the day. Oops, guess that pic is two months after D-day.

So, I ended up telling her that I can't keep going like this. We both knew she was lying and that I didn't want to listen to her talk anymore. Still didn't tell her I know about the other communications and the offer of the secret phone from the friend. I did tell her she obviously doesn't know what she wants, but it clearly isn't me. I suggested a separation. She didn't want that, I persisted but she didn't want us to make any decisions right then. Last thing I said to her is that I am no longer willing to share my life with her while she shares hers with him.

Today the OM's wife followed him and sure enough, the two of them were together (in a small group, but still together) I guess OM's wife went off of them. She texted me to let me know, and the wife texts immediately to try to explain why she had to talk to him. She needed to find out what happened yesterday and ask him why he still has her naughty pictures. Yeah right.... She's texted a couple of other times to say she's sorry. Then again later saying the reason she can't tell me big things is I refuse to believe her on the little things. Really? it's a bit hard to believe anyone when they lie about this sitch on EVERY SINGLE incident. Oh, and she asked "what about our trip?" I only responded once, about the trip. Wish I hadn't of even done that now. Told her "I don't know what to do, I guess we'll have to figure it out." I still want to take my kids to Disney.

So, unlike many of you. My wife continues to pretend she's working on the marriage. Many of you have been BD by your spouse about wanting separation or divorce. But what do you do when the wife continues to pretend she's wanting to work on the marriage? She's accusing me of wanting to quit. I just can't keep going while she hides everything from me. She's great at apologizing, just bad at keeping OM out of her life.

Originally Posted by Bern19

So, unlike many of you. My wife continues to pretend she's working on the marriage.

Actually it is not uncommon for a WW to pretend she is working on the marriage. Especially early on when they do not know where they stand with OM.

Originally Posted by Bern19

She's accusing me of wanting to quit.

She is manipulating you!

Originally Posted by Bern19

I just can't keep going while she hides everything from me. She's great at apologizing, just bad at keeping OM out of her life.

Well what does Bernie want? Are you willing to share your W with another man? Until you are able to stand up and say this is BS, nothing will change in your situation.

You "have to confront"..,. What are you going to do if she refuses to end it yet again? B/c if your W says she's not going to cut off the OM and you stick around, what does that say?

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Then again later saying the reason she can't tell me big things is I refuse to believe her on the little things.

Lol as if she has any credibility. Sometimes you just have to laugh in someone's face when they are this outrageous.

Here's the thing, your W knows your still on the hook. If you let go of her and moved on with your life, there's no telling whether or not your W will really want back in, and your W will never really know if she really wants back in until she is put in that situation. Your W is not ready to let go of you yet, whether that's b/c of you or something else is to be seen. I had to have a similar convo last weekend, and I was scared. But if you let your fear control then you aren't really breaking this negative cycle you are in with your W. Your W knows this is wrong, you don't need to spend time convincing her. You just need to decide if you're going to keep living like this.

OM's wife texted me a bunch of new info late last night and this morning. Looks like the affair was going on closer to 4 years than the 2 years she owned up to. I had a feeling she was trickle truthing me about that and many other things. She texted me about how she loves me and made a big mistake contacting him, but she was only contacting him because she felt bad for him. Said he came to her and told her he was thinking about drinking again. Yes, he's a recovering addict. She knows it was wrong and is very sorry. Then the kicker.... she goes on to say she's willing to do the work and that things have been getting better. BUT.... she "can't live her life with me bringing it up or thinking it's going on, over and over again. It's over and I need you to believe me." So, in one paragraph she goes from being ready to do the work to just let it go and I need to believe her... Right!??!

Originally Posted by Bern19

Then the kicker.... she goes on to say she's willing to do the work and that things have been getting better. BUT.... she "can't live her life with me bringing it up or thinking it's going on, over and over again. It's over and I need you to believe me." So, in one paragraph she goes from being ready to do the work to just let it go and I need to believe her... Right!??!

Sounds to me the like the affair is fizzling out and now she wants to get back together with you and dictate the terms of the reconciliation. WTF?

B your w has lied to you cheated on you multiple times if you are thinking recon and not on your terms you will most likely be back here again in a few years.

Originally Posted by LH19

Sounds to me the like the affair is fizzling out and now she wants to get back together with you and dictate the terms of the reconciliation. WTF?

B your w has lied to you cheated on you multiple times if you are thinking recon and not on your terms you will most likely be back here again in a few years.

That's exactly what i was thinking. WW doesn't know the OM's wife has been feeding me all the info from her H as he comes clean. I guess I knew I'd get the whole truth eventually, but I was hoping it would have come from my ww. There is something to be said for owning your mess and coming clean. It takes nothing to realize your lies are exposed and you have to admit to them.

We had a pre-scheduled MC session for this Saturday that I was planning on skipping. Not sure if I should tell her that I'll go, but only if she uses the hour to come completely clean. I know I'm not anywhere near R, so I'm not sure if I should just step back and let her hit bottom?

I think she is seeing that she may have blown her chance with me, and the OM is finally moving on and she's left alone. I know she is terrified of being alone. 3 months ago I jumped at the first sign she was ready to R. Shortly after that, she's sending boob pics to the OM. I think I've learned that lesson and will take this very slowly. Right now I'm not to worried about whether she's comfortable or not.

B,

I would skip the MC session and start GAL like a madman. When she is ready to come clean and do whatever it takes for you to give her another chance you can reassess at that point.

You do not want her back just because she was dumped by OM because you will be a place holder until the next OM2 comes around.

B, so your W has basically been having an A for at least half your M and lied about it throughout. She's only fessing up now because she's been backed into a corner of lies, and even then she only tells you half-truths. I agree with LH, cancel the MC and tell W you're canceling it. If she asks why then tell her you are done being disrespected, lied to and cheated on. As soon as she opens her mouth then hold your hand up, turn and walk away. Do not share any of the additional info that you have with her because what does it matter, you already know A) she's a cheater and B) she's a liar. Confronting her further about it is just a waste of your time. Listening to her explain/ reason/ negotiate is just a waste of your time.

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Not sure if I should tell her that I'll go, but only if she uses the hour to come completely clean.

No. Don't go, don't ask her to "come clean", just go dark.

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I'm not sure if I should just step back and let her hit bottom?

Yes you should.

Ok, so the wife has texted me a couple times today and I've just let them go. No response from me.... she just sent another one asking if I want her to move out of the MB. Now, she did spend about a week out of the in the guest room after D-day, but then she said she wanted to work on the marriage so I said she could come back to bed. Do I ask her to leave again or just not even reply?

I would say "yes , until I decide what I want, its best for you to sleep in the guest room".

I agree with LH, although I might suggest shortening the reply to just "yes". Forgive me if you've discussed this in your thread already, but since moving back has she just basically been sleeping in the bed with you or has there been any intimacy/ cuddling? I only ask because it will help clarify the level of her cake-eating. If there's been no intimacy then she's just been doing it to keep you placated.

AS, yes there has been intimacy. Not better or worse than before, but a slight increase in frequency.

B,

Here is the problem. Is she coming back to the relationship because OM is dumping her or is it because she wants to reconcile? Based on what you wrote I think it's the former. It will never last.

Have you read other threads on how hard piecing is for other posters? Joe2017's W came back because she got dumped by OM and had some bad flings and he had to end things after months or trying to reconcile. He put his kids through the entire process again and put himself through hell again.

I am not saying reconciliation is not in the future for you but you can't just jump back in like nothing happened. IMO you will be making a big mistake.

She should think you are finished with her. Even if she accuses you of "quitting". She has to feel that you've dumped her b/c she has lied time after time. Don't believe anything she says.

It always amazes how fast a WW can jump from texting about why she just had to contact OM one more, maybe even throw in a "I'm sorry".......and immediately ask about the upcoming vacation trip all within the same range of texting.

Your boys are big enough they don't have to her along on the trip. Make it a guys only trip, and leave her home. I mean,...........seriously!

Resist the temptation of saying too much, Bern. Don't go into explaining things to her. She knows she is rotten! She may apologize and claim she wants to save the MR......but she was seeing OM as recently as when?

If she goes to you, and depending on how much she pleads for another chance.........this might be the opportunity to get her to agree to no contact of any type with OM.....ever. The WW will usually agree to that much, even when they don't intend to keep their promise. If she agrees, then tell her the only way you can consider staying with her, is for her agree and cooperate in being fully transparent.

As for you confronting her at this point, or going to MC just to see if she'll come clean........why bother? She's not going to tell you any more than absolutely necessary. She is a liar, and a cheater. Stop expecting her to act otherwise. Don't make any moves until you talk it over here.

I'm in a big hurry right now, and have to leave for a little while. I'll check back in an hour or so. Keep us updated.

((hugs))

Thanks everyone... I am holding off on any talks with her until I'm confident in my plan of action. The OM's wife has offered to get me additional info on the details of the affair so we can compare notes to give us the best view of what, when, etc. I'm not sure it's a great idea to be communicating with the OM's wife, but to this point she's been thinking that her and OM were working on their marriage. Only to be blindsided by this photo. I was at least suspicious of my WW. She was floored and just finally got full disclosure from him last night. Only reason I want to talk with her is because his full disclosure was significantly different from my WW's.

Please do not reveal what you know or how you know details. Only reveal that you DO KNOW.

"We both know you are lying" goes a long way. Make sure OMW understands this. Do not let the cheaters know you two are communicating.

I would get all the details you can from OM's wife. But you don't need to explain stuff in detail to your wife. Just let her know you know she is a liar, and stand firm on that. Look her in the eye. Let her know how disgusting it is. You do not explain how you know, what you know, or go into details.

And if your W begs for another chance, the answer is not yes or no, not right now.

Take some time and space and get away from this for a while. Can you get out of town for a few days?

Ok, had a long text convo with OM's wife. Her husband has sold out my WW and the lies they concocted about the events & timeline. Became physical in October/Nov of 2014. Not January of 2017 as the wife claimed. So 4+ years, not 2. Met for sex several times a week (most times in my house) with a short break in March of 2018. I know enough to know the OM isn't the most reliable source for info, but when it comes to general details, it makes no sense for him to change the timeline to well before what he knows she told me.

OM's wife then told me that he quit his job this morning. No notice, just done. Spilled the whole thing to their supervisor and walked out. Super called my wife in after and said that they are required to notify administration. So, wife texted me to tell me about it and how she thinks she should quit because everyone is speculating and she can't take it. I don't know that administration isn't going to make that decision for her, but it does hurt to see her in so much pain. No matter how well I feel that i've detached, I obviously still care for her. Am i crazy? If this was happening to anyone else I'd be like, "Hey you made your bed, now lie in it". I told her that I'm willing to listen to her talk, but that I know everything and I won't listen to her lies any more.

Your W can't take it? That's just grand. If only she cared about you as much as her job. Screw her pain, Bern. What's she doing to right the ship?

You aren't crazy, you're just emotionally attached. So am I. So what? Are you working to change it? I am. Have you been betrayed enough? I have.

You shouldn't tell her you're willing to listen to her. She's only lied to you for years, what's a few more hollow words? Words are wind.

Bern, think about what you are going to do. You are emotional and she is being forced to do this, not out of love for you. Don't feel pity for her and put that over what you deserve.

So since you know everything, don't offer that. See if she really comes clean and then if she doesn't? What are you going to do?

If the OM told his W 4 years and you just out of the blue know its 4 and somehow let that slip, they will figure you out. They'll know.

4 years... that [censored] man, so sorry to hear about this.

It hurts you to see her in so much pain about the A , OM and being exposed? Bern, when I first read your thread, I thought you had clear boundaries about this and were about enforcing them. What caused you to change your stance? 4 years Bern, Im angry for you buddy.

Let her hit rock bottom without your help.

Update: I decided (against many's advice) to attend one last MC session with my wife, mostly because our MC is also my IC and I wanted to be there to counter any falsehoods or outright lies by the WW. Wife admitted to having conflicting feelings for OM. Claims that there has been contact still, but nothing sexual. She admitted that she did feel like she was in love with him. Also admitted to the longer timeline, of the affair. Said that she no longer feels the same way about the OM as he's shown his true colors by choosing to stay with his wife, even though he was feeding her the idea that they weren't going to be able to make it work and that if he could just get one of their two houses sold, he would be able to leave her and they could be together. It is during this time period in December that the WW texted him the dirty pics. However, WW claims that she started to get cold feet and decided that she didn't want to leave and told him that. Once she told him, his attempts to suck her back in intensified, and he began to get sloppy in his attempts to communicate with my WW That is how his wife caught him with the pic. Once the SHTF, he got her to agree to meet one more time during work to get closure. Turns out his wife suspected he'd reach out to her and she caught them together. She confronted them both, got rather loud about it and threatened to expose them both to their work and publicly. The next day, he quit his job. Told their boss all the details of the affair, that he was still in love with my wife, but had to quit to protect her from his wife who was threatening exposure.

Now my WW has said it's over, she has agreed to NC with him, however I'm not in a position to take her at her word. I told her that and she actually seemed surprised that I don't trust her. Told her that not only do I no longer trust her, but all the lies and deceit has started to affect the way I'm feeling towards her. I told her that this has eroded the respect I had for her and that I'm happy she now knows what she wants, I'm not certain of what I want.

She asked if I wanted her to move out of the MBR, I told her that I wasn't sure. So far she has stayed in our MB. She came to me and told me that she has downloaded a book by W. Harley Jr that the therapist suggested. She got the audio version and told me last night she was already up to chapter 10. I had that book earlier in our sitch, but after reading the first couple chapters about exposure and her having to leave her job, I knew she would meet those suggestions with the same resentment and rebellion that she got us here so I kept looking and that's how I found DB.

So, wife claims to be NC, claims to be working on herself, claims to be interested in saving our marriage. If i'm honest, I've always been in the "divorce is not an option" for me camp, but now that all this has happened I find myself wondering why I wanted her back so bad? Now, for my kids sake, I'd like to keep my marriage together, but for the first time I'm struggling as to whether I can move forward with someone that betrayed me so completely.

I've been doing pretty good with what I'm calling "mindful detachment". I think that like many newcomers LBH's I misunderstood the concept of detachment. Like many, I did it with an agenda. The way I was doing it she could sense my resentment and her reaction to it kept me attached. For the first time in a while I don't find myself walking on eggshells when speaking with her because I don't allow myself to get sucked into her bizarro world. While her actions still affect me to a point, it no longer keeps me focused on her. Now, I know I haven't "arrived" and have a long way to go, but I finally feel like I'm starting to make progress. I can tell you it feels good to be thinking clearer.

I've spent most of the day re-reading Sandi's multi thread posts for the Newcomer LBH with a WW wife. It is amazing how much of what she says fits our situation exactly. Specifically the parts about her resentment and rebellion affecting her ability to love me because of the lack of respect that waywardness breeds. I often wish my wife would stumble on this site, not to see my posts, but to read everything that Sandi has written here. The similarities of being a "good girl" for so long and continuing to attend church all while living a filthy backslidden secret life are just erie. How she was unable to feel remorse for her actions and how long it took to come to grips with those emotions are both discouraging, because of the timeline, yet encouraging, because it can still happen.

So, I'll keep checking in and will continue to update. Who knows, I may even venture on to some other threads if I feel like I can add anything. So far I'm humbled by the responses and grateful for the advice and even some of the 2x4's that have come my way. This board has certainly helped me come to grips with my own issues and reading some of your sitch's has given me the confidence that everything will be OK. May not finish with the the outcome I had hoped for, but I'll be better prepared for the rest of my days either way.

Originally Posted by Bern19

Claims that there has been contact still, but nothing sexual. She admitted that she did feel like she was in love with him.

Bernie that should have been the end of the conversation. Everything else is a waste of time.

Sorry LH, that was worded poorly. That first paragraph was her explaining the sitch back in December to our MC. Not what she is saying now. Again, I�m not buying what she�s selling, yet. As several have warned me to not listen to what she says, but to watch how she acts. Right now I�m sitting back and watching.

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Right now I�m sitting back and watching.

Just don't wait too long before you put your plan of action in force. She'll slither under the door and act as if the MR is picking up where it left off.....without meeting certain requirements that you should have, as the betrayed H.

During the session with the MC, did your WW ever offer an apology or express regret that she had deceived you and betrayed you for 4 years?

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Wife admitted to having conflicting feelings for OM.

It's the addiction of the affair.

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Claims that there has been contact still,

Even after he chose his M over her? Well, both of them are addicted, and there is no such thing as getting "closure". If he thinks he can contact her without his W knowing, he'll try. Same goes for your WW, if she has not made a decision to do the right thing.

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Said that she no longer feels the same way about the OM as he's shown his true colors by choosing to stay with his wife,

She's just mad at OM. If he contacted her today and convinced her that he was forced to say/do those things but that his heart still belongs to her, yada, yada..........it would be hard for her not to buy into it, b/c she will be going into the very beginning of withdrawals of the affair addiction, and she needs a fix. Her bruised ego may carry her through a few days, but she will crave to have some type of contact, if it's nothing but seeing him like something on social media.

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Now my WW has said it's over, she has agreed to NC with him, however I'm not in a position to take her at her word.

That's true, and that's why you need to require that she agrees to being transparent. The WW has to be held accountable throughout the period they are going through "withdrawals" from the affair/OM. She's been at this for 4 years, so I doubt it is going to be a breeze for her.

As the WW, she doesn't get to pick & choose about how much she will reveal. She doesn't get to claim he is invading her privacy. Only the wayward spouse has to be accountable for their whereabouts and activity. The faithful spouse shouldn't volunteer or agree to join the transparency club. This is not about the faithful spouse's atonement, it's about the wayward spouse who is not trustworthy. So, it's up to the H to decide what type of transparency he needs from his WW. She has to surrender all passwords, delete old texts from OM, block him, etc. It's the H's decision when he will take a look at her phone activity. BTW, she should not know when he looks at her phone, for reasons I can explain later, if necessary. He should not announce when he's going to look, nor have a scheduled time, nor even check every day. \

As for your decision about letting her remain the MBR, I'll add these thoughts. If you have not decided if you want to stay married or get a D, then I suppose you could sleep apart for a few nights. However, under no circumstances should you agree or even call it an in-house separation. Those are killers! It is ultimate cake-eating for a WW. Besides, if you think you will want to work on the MR, then she doesn't need to spending the night behind closed doors from you. While going through withdrawals, she'll be very vulnerable to temptation to contact OM. I know some may say that you can't watch her 24/7....and that is very true. If the WW is authentic about wanting to save her M, then transparency will help her to stay on the straight & narrow road. Sure, she can find a way around it if she wants to break the NC agreement, but if she wants free of those conflicting feelings toward OM, then she will need to get through the withdrawals. If her feelings were beginning to change toward OM before she saw his true colors, then hopefully, she can get through the process faster.....IDK.

Again, I caution you about just sitting back and watching her, b/c you do NOT want to appear passive. I don't mean you should pursue her! I think you are watching to see if she makes any attempt to approach you about working on the MR. Just speaking as a former WW, appearing passive would look similar to playing the role of Plan B. You have options. You are in the driver's seat. You get to call the shots. You get to state the requirements she has to meet in order for you to feel safe in a relationship with her. The last thing you need to do is let her back into the MR without doing the work.

Thank you Sandi, I was hoping you'd weigh in.

Originally Posted by sandi2

During the session with the MC, did your WW ever offer an apology or express regret that she had deceived you and betrayed you for 4 years?

Not what I would call a "come to Jesus" type moment. She did apologize, and for the first time it wasn't followed immediately or shortly after by reminding me of the things I had done to push her away. The only time she's cried or been broken up about it in front of me is when I asked her how many lies does she think she can tell me before I begin to hate her? I told her that if our marriage doesn't survive this, we will still be in each others lives because of the kids until one of us dies. I told her I don't want to spend the rest of my life hating her, and that she needed to be honest with me about her intentions. She broke down and managed to say that she didn't want me to hate her...

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She's just mad at OM. If he contacted her today and convinced her that he was forced to say/do those things but that his heart still belongs to her, yada, yada..........it would be hard for her not to buy into it, b/c she will be going into the very beginning of withdrawals of the affair addiction, and she needs a fix. Her bruised ego may carry her through a few days, but she will crave to have some type of contact, if it's nothing but seeing him like something on social media.

I started to try and explain this exact concept to her, but caught myself and stopped. She has admitted to the addictive nature of the relationship. Says she didn't see it that way until more recently when she was trying to steer clear of him, but still enjoyed the fact that he was pursuing her. Until I'm certain that she has started to break out of her wayward mindset, where everything I tell her is received like a spoiled teenager that is rebelling against her father. I need to let her do some of the heavy lifting to get started. So, I'm letting her do some of her own reading and trying not to get initiate any relationship conversations.

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That's true, and that's why you need to require that she agrees to being transparent. The WW has to be held accountable throughout the period they are going through "withdrawals" from the affair/OM. She's been at this for 4 years, so I doubt it is going to be a breeze for her.

As the WW, she doesn't get to pick & choose about how much she will reveal. She doesn't get to claim he is invading her privacy. Only the wayward spouse has to be accountable for their whereabouts and activity. The faithful spouse shouldn't volunteer or agree to join the transparency club. This is not about the faithful spouse's atonement, it's about the wayward spouse who is not trustworthy. So, it's up to the H to decide what type of transparency he needs from his WW. She has to surrender all passwords, delete old texts from OM, block him, etc. It's the H's decision when he will take a look at her phone activity. BTW, she should not know when he looks at her phone, for reasons I can explain later, if necessary. He should not announce when he's going to look, nor have a scheduled time, nor even check every day.

We haven't had that discussion yet as I'm still waiting to see if she can manage "no contact" for a few days at least. I'm not confident that she can as she has proven she couldn't before. Only difference now is she no longer sees him everyday at work since he quit. I know that he will go to a neighboring district and get hired to the same job and there is a chance that they'll end up at the same location for an event for their respective schools. I know that is probably not likely in the next couple months, but next school year it could be a reality. Until then he is unemployed and has plenty of time to contact my ww.

As for the things I need from her, this is what I have currently:
1. Absolutely no contact. If she runs into him or he tries to contact her, she calls me immediately to let me know.
2. Transparency- Delete all texts, emails, pics, etc. Given all passwords for access to all social media and email accounts and possibly downloading a gps tracking app to her phone.
3. Gifts- any and all gifts/presents/etc need to be disposed of. I don't want her being triggered to think about him as she drinks coffee from the mug he bought her.
That's all I have settled on so far... any other suggestions here?

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As for your decision about letting her remain the MBR, I'll add these thoughts. If you have not decided if you want to stay married or get a D, then I suppose you could sleep apart for a few nights. However, under no circumstances should you agree or even call it an in-house separation. Those are killers! It is ultimate cake-eating for a WW. Besides, if you think you will want to work on the MR, then she doesn't need to spending the night behind closed doors from you. While going through withdrawals, she'll be very vulnerable to temptation to contact OM. I know some may say that you can't watch her 24/7....and that is very true. If the WW is authentic about wanting to save her M, then transparency will help her to stay on the straight & narrow road. Sure, she can find a way around it if she wants to break the NC agreement, but if she wants free of those conflicting feelings toward OM, then she will need to get through the withdrawals. If her feelings were beginning to change toward OM before she saw his true colors, then hopefully, she can get through the process faster.....IDK.

Again, I caution you about just sitting back and watching her, b/c you do NOT want to appear passive. I don't mean you should pursue her! I think you are watching to see if she makes any attempt to approach you about working on the MR. Just speaking as a former WW, appearing passive would look similar to playing the role of Plan B. You have options. You are in the driver's seat. You get to call the shots. You get to state the requirements she has to meet in order for you to feel safe in a relationship with her. The last thing you need to do is let her back into the MR without doing the work.

When this all started, divorce wasn't an option. I didn't believe in divorce. After finding out that she lied about the timeline of the affair, then was lying to me about no contact, then finding out that there had been talks with the OM about selling his house so they could be together, all slowly started to erode my long held belief that divorce was wrong. I started to see that divorce is a way out of an abusive and destructive relationship. When the other spouse claims they want to work on the marriage, but in secret continue their secretive behavior the BS is left in a desperate position. I think that is when I started to realize that I was worth more. That I deserved to be happy. I still struggled with the effects of divorce on my kids, but realized she wasn't being a good wife or mom. She was so distracted by the OM, that she made all of us a secondary priority. My kids deserve better than that too. It was crazy how fast her attitude changed once she noticed me pulling away. I think her confusion over my obvious detachment, coupled with the discovery of this pic that she sent him (post discovery), him exposing to her boss and then quitting, all combined to finally get her attention. I have seen a different side to my ww the past couple days, but am still being very careful to make sure I don't make her return to the MR too easy. She claims she's willing to do the work, but we have yet to talk about what I need from her. Let's see what her attitude is once I explain the things I need from her to continue.

Originally Posted by Bern19

When this all started, divorce wasn't an option. I didn't believe in divorce.

B is this a religious belief that you have?

I suggest you read Joe2017's thread.. He tried to reconcile with a WW who came back after her AP turned out to be a scumbag.

She's coming back for the wrong reasons and that my friend will eventually catch up with you in my opinion.

How are things going, Bern?

Quick Update- on the vaca with the family. Had a bit of a setback with the wife when I was holding her phone for navigation purposes and she got a text from someone I didn�t recognize. I let it get to me as I started to wonder if she�s back in contact with the OM. Turns out she sold something on eBay and the message was from them. She got a bit testy, rolled her eyes and said � that�s a great way to start a vacation �. So then I�m upset because it appears she still has no clue what it�s like to wonder if Your being lied to, again. To wonder if their treachery continues... once we get home, we�ll need to have that conversation about boundaries, transparency and how to better handle the lack of trust I have in her.

But right now, I�m focused on having fun with the kids.

Wow, how crazy of you to think it might be a text from the OM. It's almost as if your W dropped a bomb on you and has been seeing another man for years. I mean, if that had happened, I'd imagine there'd be some raw emotions and zero trust.

Do you ever try being honest with her? She's trying to keep you in line with that "great way to start a vacation" line.

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She got a bit testy, rolled her eyes and said � that�s a great way to start a vacation �.

Oh the arrogance of a WW! Being on a family vacation when your WW is like being in a torture chamber, I would think. Those car rides with the kids hearing everything said, places you in a vulnerable position. I suggest you just try to avoid as much as possible when the kids are in hearing distance. Once you get back home, then you need to start calling her out on this type of display. Rolling her eyes at you is like gaslighting. It's her way of saying you were over reacting or it's all in your head. The W rolling her eyes is also an act of disrespect. It becomes a bad habit for some women, but it started out as a slight overt show of disrespect. Blaming you for how the way the vacation starts is deflecting the truth behind your reasons for thinking that call could have been from her AP.

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But right now, I�m focused on having fun with the kids.

Right, make it all about them!

Yeah, I considered not saying anything about the text, but figured that�s what I would have always done, so I figured instead of pretending it didn�t bother me I�d just say something. When she got upset with me that bothered me more than the text. Once again proving she has not considered what she�s done as �that bad�. I don�t know if she�ll ever grasp that. At least she doesn�t appear to be close. I�m to the point now that I keep remembering things she said or placed we were only to realize that she was with the OM during all of them. It�s starting to affect my mindset of trying to avoid a divorce at all costs. I�m starting to feel cheated out of the life I was supposed to have by this person that I trusted my future to. At this point I�m avoiding all relationship talk and just engaged with my kids as much as possible. I�ll get into it with her once we get home.

She's like my W in that they don't want to deal with the facts. Your W knows it's wrong, she is just so emotionally charged that she can't even think about it right now. I've tried dragging it out of my W, I'd recommend you don't. But if it comes, if she acts like you're being over the top about it, just gently remind her of the facts of the situation. The facts alone will make her cry and boohoo poor her, but don't add any extra IMO.

Hey Bern, how about an update?