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Posted By: sandi2 Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/13/18 08:07 PM
Here's the link to the previous thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2773301&page=1




Series Links

Links to this series of threads

First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread
Sandi's Reflections









Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/13/18 10:16 PM
Sandi. Couple of Qs. I believe you read my sitch. My WW has had EA since March, PA since August 2018. WW moved upstairs into separate room Sept 24th. From Sept 24th through about two weeks after BD, WW wouldnt call me, talk to me, nothing. WW would hide in her room.

Within the last couple of weeks, due to my detachment, WW has been downstairs more, started cooking family dinners again, tells me i look nice, says good morning and good night. I know these are baby steps from her right?

She has not shown remorse towards me and has only said "sorry". I know she is still speaking with OM but I dont know if she is seeing him. OM lives in another state and she has traveled several times since BD, but she was super paranoid thinking I was having her followed etc. Plus she feared I would tell her job if she went and saw him again, which I still may do, which would end up in her being terminated.

I don't want to be vindictive so I have not done anything like that. I did not tell OMW either.

In between WW being cordial/kind with the above short statements, she keeps finding stupid petty stuff, like something I liked on FB etc and will tell me something like "You are trying to get everyone to hate me" or "See you don't want to fix things".

Unfortunately that came through text and instead of thinking before I reacted I responded stating that no I wasnt trying to get anyone to hate her and that it wasnt up to me to fix this.

Are those considered temp checks?

I got another text last night because WW is out of town and she missed out an important concert for D16. WW said "please record the concert for me so I can watch it"

I did not respond to that. About two hours later WW text me "did S11 go to school today?"

She knows he went to school. I have no idea why she would ask me that. I responded about an hour later to the second text "yes".

I did not respond to the request to record the concert. I did record it and I sent the recordings to D16 and told her she can share them if she wants.

Is it ok if I just ignore texts from WW if they don't have to do with anything urgent related to kids? I don't think asking if S11 went to school is an urgent text. I am trying to keep the responses to only things urgent. Like if the kids have an appointment, or are sick, or scheduling etc.

Also, WW told me she was getting a couple of the kids gifts. I am going to get them separate gifts from me. I am not competing with the WW but I want to get them one nice gift. Is this appropriate? The gifts I get will only be from me. My kids don't believe in Santa.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/14/18 04:32 PM
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Within the last couple of weeks, due to my detachment, WW has been downstairs more, started cooking family dinners again, tells me i look nice, says good morning and good night. I know these are baby steps from her right?


IMO, they don't count as baby steps, b/c she is still involved with OM and she's not working on the MR. Nothing she does counts as baby steps until she goes NC with OM and wants to reconcile the MR. I know that some newcomers may tell each other these are signs of progress, but it's really not. It is the WW wanting the best of both her worlds. It's cake eating.

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She has not shown remorse towards me and has only said "sorry". I know she is still speaking with OM but I dont know if she is seeing him. OM lives in another state and she has traveled several times since BD, but she was super paranoid thinking I was having her followed etc. Plus she feared I would tell her job if she went and saw him again, which I still may do, which would end up in her being terminated.


This explains another reason she has suddenly engaged in her role in the home. She's playing nice, in hopes to throw you off and so you won't get her fired, etc. You can't fall for it. It's not genuine.

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In between WW being cordial/kind with the above short statements, she keeps finding stupid petty stuff, like something I liked on FB etc and will tell me something like "You are trying to get everyone to hate me" or "See you don't want to fix things".

Unfortunately that came through text and instead of thinking before I reacted I responded stating that no I wasnt trying to get anyone to hate her and that it wasnt up to me to fix this.

Are those considered temp checks?


Yes, and as long as she is doing this stuff, you'll know she is not remorseful nor genuine about reconciling. When she sends texts of this nature.....don't respond. Don't reassure her.

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She knows he went to school. I have no idea why she would ask me that. I responded about an hour later to the second text "yes".


She doesn't really care if he went to school or not. She wants to make you respond to her texts. You handled it well. When you absolutely must respond, use one to three words....or as few as possible. No chit-chat, no niceties, etc.

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Is it ok if I just ignore texts from WW if they don't have to do with anything urgent related to kids? I don't think asking if S11 went to school is an urgent text. I am trying to keep the responses to only things urgent. Like if the kids have an appointment, or are sick, or scheduling etc.


Yes, ignore any texts that have nothing to do with the kids. I don't know why S11 not attending school that day was urgent, but you dealt with it fine. Be aware that she'll catch on fast that you only respond to kid related texts, so she'll use the kids as her "hook" to pull you into texting.

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Also, WW told me she was getting a couple of the kids gifts. I am going to get them separate gifts from me. I am not competing with the WW but I want to get them one nice gift. Is this appropriate? The gifts I get will only be from me. My kids don't believe in Santa.


Sure, you can get your kids a gift from you.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/14/18 04:43 PM
Thanks Sandi. Responding to texts quickly is something that I am so used to doing, so I am working very hard on breaking that habit.

I updated my sitch thread with a text I sent last night. I was having a bad dream about my wife being intimate with another man. Its a recurring dream I have had since all of this has happened. When I have bad dreams I get loud and in the past when WW slept with me she would comfort me and wake me up.

WW texted me because she heard me, it was about 3AM. I think she was just tossing and turning and could hear me because she was awake. WW asked me if I was having a bad dream and what about. Again random text. I actually decided to tell her what my dream was about. I probably shouldn't have told her but I didn't pursue or ask for anything. I just told her that I was having a dream about her being intimate with another man and that it was upsetting. WW didn't respond.
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/17/18 08:23 PM
Sandi,

I've read through a lot of your posts and don't remember coming across your thoughts on this topic unless it was in the beginning when my mind was all over the place and probably wasn't in a position to retain much. If you've touched on this somewhere, if you could point me in the right direction, I'd kindly appreciate it!

What is the WW mindset when their transgressions have "come to light" or there are rumors swirling about their wayward behavior?

The reason I ask is, over the past week or 2, there have been some rumors going around our little town about my W and I's sitch. The rumor is W got caught having an A (which is true even though the details surrounding it, as far as the rumor is concerned, are incorrect). I brought the rumors up to my W last week when someone asked me about them. I figured I'd give her a little heads up that the "cat's out of the bag." Sort of surprising because neither of us have said anything to anybody. But, she's been looking for an apartment, so people are probably putting two and two together.

Last night, W was out for a walk and a vehicle with a couple people in it stopped alongside of her and they were asking her how she was doing with everything and told W they had heard she was living in a different town. W came back home and asked if I had heard anything "about us" or if I had told anybody about our situation.

So, I guess my question is, does this sort of stuff effect a WW at all? I have zero expectations and am focused on continuing to detach and walking in a straight line in the opposite direction of my W, but I'm just curious if this stuff weighs on the wayward mind at all. Thank you!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 06:11 PM
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What is the WW mindset when their transgressions have "come to light" or there are rumors swirling about their wayward behavior?


There are too many variables to give a pat answer here. If she has gone to lengths to keep her transgressions concealed, then having those transgressions brought to light are some natural consequences I often talk about. I won't say for every WW it's the main ingredient that turns her around, but it might work in chipping away at her fantasy. The more reality that hits her at the same time, the better chance of it crumbling her fantasy.

From what I've observed, it mainly goes one of two ways.

1) She and OM are pushed closer together and take on the attitude of "us against the world". However, a scandal can put pressure on an affair.....especially if OM is a well established business man in the community. If OM is M and has children, he might try to end the A, in order to save his own skin. There is certainly no guarantee.

2) It can be the beginning of her fantasy world crumbling. It depends on how important having a good reputation is to her, and depending on how many enablers run to her rescue.

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I brought the rumors up to my W last week when someone asked me about them. I figured I'd give her a little heads up that the "cat's out of the bag."


I'm curious as to why you decided to give her a "heads up".

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So, I guess my question is, does this sort of stuff effect a WW at all?


It just depends on where she is emotionally/mentally in the affair. At the height of the affair, it probably would not matter in the sense it causes her to change her behavior and want to reconcile her M. It might lead to the OM showing his true colors, or her losing her job, etc. The loses add up, and tear down her fantasy world.
Posted By: lost8 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 06:33 PM
Hey Sandi,

I haven't reached out in a bit. My W has a very difficult time communicating with me face to face unless she has been drinking or texting. She shows a lot of emotion about how she has hurt me and wants us to stay together during these times. I have just about dropped the rope on this and am only around because I can't leave due to legalities and am continuing with my life to be the best I can be so I don't think much about it.

I know she is self medicating because she has some other deep set issues she is dealing with in IC but does the WW feel an overwhelming amount of guilt to the point that they cannot communicate about what is happening like in my case or is the desire to communicate to save what is slipping away make it a necessity to talk with her partner to try and R?

She has showed a lot of signs that she is coming around but the only convo has come after a few drinks. I'm not taking the bait of whether it's a legit attempt or a drunken Plan B game.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
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What is the WW mindset when their transgressions have "come to light" or there are rumors swirling about their wayward behavior?


There are too many variables to give a pat answer here. If she has gone to lengths to keep her transgressions concealed, then having those transgressions brought to light are some natural consequences I often talk about. I won't say for every WW it's the main ingredient that turns her around, but it might work in chipping away at her fantasy. The more reality that hits her at the same time, the better chance of it crumbling her fantasy.

From what I've observed, it mainly goes one of two ways.

1) She and OM are pushed closer together and take on the attitude of "us against the world". However, a scandal can put pressure on an affair.....especially if OM is a well established business man in the community. If OM is M and has children, he might try to end the A, in order to save his own skin. There is certainly no guarantee.

2) It can be the beginning of her fantasy world crumbling. It depends on how important having a good reputation is to her, and depending on how many enablers run to her rescue.
This caught my eye (I'm bored at work right now).

My now ex was horrified at the idea that anyone might know that she was having an affair. I know this from her reaction when I suggested that I would apply for divorce under those grounds. I also live in a small town - village really - and the rumours were certainly flying. The reality was though that most people really didn't care / pay too much attention. OM (presumably) didn't care as he was a widower living in another city. Heck he may very well have been bragging to his friends about this overweight middle-aged woman with anger issues and poor life skills that he "stole" from her poor sap of a husband.

I kept my mouth shut until she was outed some months later well after she had moved out, by one of her new friends. I then had no urge to "protect" her and was then open about the fact that yes, I was living alone and that yes she'd gone chasing after her dreams and his wallet. Even the kids didn't know.

Her reaction has been to pull the rabbit hole in after herself. Even now, well over 3 years out from the start of the affair I still get Christmas cards from her old life friends addressed to Mr & Mrs P that she's left behind. She's been gone 2 1/2 years, we've been actually divorced for nearly a year and even now, she keeps an incredibly low profile going from being active in the community and noisy on social media to essentially being a hermit.

She's lost her home, her reputation, her friends. She rarely sees her children despite S24 living with me a 5 minute drive away. She did go see her D26 this fall for the first time in a few years (with OM) and that was undoubtedly uncomfortable for all. She lost both of her parents within days of each other this past January. OM / current boyfriend I think treats her as a side-piece / casual girlfriend. She lives in her apartment over the liquor store she works at with her incontinent Pomeranian.

She did know that I was willing to take her back even months out and she kept a tight grip on that fact I think. Dragging out the settlement and divorce while still in active pursuit of OM (who while he has some money is no great prize). We had a comfortable middle-class existence including tropical vacations, new cars etc.

I do know that after she left she put out the story that she had only started seeing OM after she left. Her lawyer wasn't happy when I literally laughed at that and my then STBX was so upset she stormed out of the room.

Now she did have some very active enablers. Her wayward brother and sister in particular along with a small number of friends who encouraged her to "be happy". They were very persistent, especially her sister who hates me. As I wrote to her once, she became someone she used to despise. Most of those enablers have seemingly abandoned her as well. I know talking to my daughter she blurted out "but Mom hates Aunt K".

So - in light of the question, I'm not sure how useful my commentary is - but there are a number of paths that can be walked. And there's always farther down that people can fall. I would never have imagined my ex having the stamina to pursue something this long. But as she posted in the summer in one of her very rare FB posts - "I have a lot of people to prove wrong". And having lived with her for nearly 30 years, I know how stubborn she can be.

At this point I really honestly have no insight into my ex's life nor her attitudes. She seems afraid to see me perhaps because I represent Truth. I've seen her burn rubber whenever she spots me (small town living). I'm still single, living my life. I gave up hoping that she'd knock on the door quite some time ago.

If I could summarize this rambling, disorganized post - it's that if she's seen the light, it's the light she wants to see, not the one I'd hoped for.

Would she have changed paths if I'd outed her earlier on? She certainly would have been very angry at me but I think that by the time I found out about her affair - about 8 months after it started - she was committed to that path.
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 07:07 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2

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I brought the rumors up to my W last week when someone asked me about them. I figured I'd give her a little heads up that the "cat's out of the bag."


I'm curious as to why you decided to give her a "heads up".


To be honest, I'm not sure.....I suppose if I had to guess it would be because I was hoping it would effect her emotionally at some level. I don't mean, necessarily, that I was expecting that she would all of a sudden have a change of heart, but more so that her transgressions are being talked about and therefore people will now assume it was her dirty deeds that caused this M to be ruined and not me. Maybe a little gratification that she knows that people know....not sure I have a for sure answer I guess!
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 07:20 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
So - in light of the question, I'm not sure how useful my commentary is - but there are a number of paths that can be walked. And there's always farther down that people can fall. I would never have imagined my ex having the stamina to pursue something this long. But as she posted in the summer in one of her very rare FB posts - "I have a lot of people to prove wrong". And having lived with her for nearly 30 years, I know how stubborn she can be.


Andrew, first off, thank you so much for your insight. It gives a glimpse of just how long it might take for a WW to maybe feel remorse and repent for their actions. Then again, if she's still with OM, that probably won't happen until he's out of the picture.

I think that my W is too stubborn too to every admit she was wrong. Maybe she will surprise me sometime down the road, but I'm not expecting it. She needs to be right and when that is of the utmost importance, it's hard to overcome.

Originally Posted by AndrewP

At this point I really honestly have no insight into my ex's life nor her attitudes. She seems afraid to see me perhaps because I represent Truth. I've seen her burn rubber whenever she spots me (small town living). I'm still single, living my life. I gave up hoping that she'd knock on the door quite some time ago.


So you don't see her at grandkid birthday parties or your kids' birthday parties or anything, huh?

I do wonder if that's why a lot of WW do leave. Or maybe, I should say, I really question whether me representing the truth and representing all of the wrongs my WW has done to me and our family is a big reason why she wants to leave.
Posted By: ballast Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 07:33 PM
Originally Posted by Wanted1
I think that my W is too stubborn too to every admit she was wrong. Maybe she will surprise me sometime down the road, but I'm not expecting it. She needs to be right and when that is of the utmost importance, it's hard to overcome.


seems like every single LBH feels the exact same way about their WW. in my sitch my WW was both stubborn and had to be right from day one. I wonder if for some they aren't that way until WW hits them.

Originally Posted by Wanted1
I really question whether me representing the truth and representing all of the wrongs my WW has done to me and our family is a big reason why she wants to leave.


we LBH's definitely represent a HUGE pressure point for our WWs but it's speculative at best to wonder how so. that we are universally some kind of "kryptonotic repellant" to them seems certain. I'd guess that per WW they could not even explain it to us if we asked them.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 08:02 PM
Something that I am struggling with, and it's contributing towards my descent is that whenever the opportunity to talk to WW comes up, I go on the offensive. Not as angrily as I used to and I do not throw her decisions she has made in her face anymore, but still find myself telling her that I don't intend on living like this, and talk about our possible D plans (I don't want it, but I don't know what else to say because it will sound like R talk and pursuit).

I don't bring up OM and I plan my and D4 future without WW, because that is what the reality is fast becoming.

When the opportunity to talk comes up again, should I just listen and validate? Do not even begin to give my viewpoints on all of this? How can or should I because it seems like after every serious conversation about our sitch we continue our march towards D.
Posted By: ballast Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 08:41 PM
Pain18...yep listen and validate, if disrespectful walk. Never initiate and your view does not matter. While she is with OM the quicker you get gone the better. You and D4 are it now.

B
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by ballast
Pain18...yep listen and validate, if disrespectful walk. Never initiate and your view does not matter. While she is with OM the quicker you get gone the better. You and D4 are it now.

B


This is what I need to remember.

And if she asks what my viewpoint is?
Posted By: AndrewP Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 08:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wanted1
So you don't see her at grandkid birthday parties or your kids' birthday parties or anything, huh?
No grandkids as of yet and my daughter lives a 16 hour drive away. For S24's birthdays etc and all holidays up until this Christmas he spends them with me. This year for the first time since she left, he'll be spending Christmas eve and day with his mother.

My ex does I think go to pretty long lengths to avoid me although I'm quite confident that S24 and common acquaintances feed her information at her request. I occasionally hear about her, never from her beyond a surprise "Merry Christmas" one line email a few weeks ago in response to me forwarding some mis-delivered mail.

While I wish she would step up and assist with parenting, she doesn't but at 24 my son doesn't need a lot.

Originally Posted by Wanted1
I do wonder if that's why a lot of WW do leave. Or maybe, I should say, I really question whether me representing the truth and representing all of the wrongs my WW has done to me and our family is a big reason why she wants to leave.
I think you need to turn that question upside down. From my own limited experience plus a lot of reading it is my belief that a WW is not running from anything but rather towards something. Sure, they may talk us down to justify it to themselves often making up foo-foo dust stories, but infidelity is by it's very nature a very selfish act.

As the behind spouse, you could I suppose try to dance all nice and pretty and look better than OM/OW and I certainly did my best at that to little or no avail. But then you have a situation where the next sparkly tvrd that comes along will attract them away again. Or you can move on with your life, let them go off on their own and then if they crash and burn hard enough to look around - and that "hard enough" undoubtedly varies a lot from person to person - they may look back towards what they had. That's when the really tough choice needs to be made of if you want them back.

The choice is always that of the BS on what course they themselves follow. Few of the BS who've "thrown in the towel" and moved on to new lives seem to regret their choices from what I gather.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 09:06 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP

The choice is always that of the BS on what course they themselves follow. Few of the BS who've "thrown in the towel" and moved on to new lives seem to regret their choices from what I gather.


Like giving up too soon?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 09:24 PM
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does the WW feel an overwhelming amount of guilt to the point that they cannot communicate about what is happening


I'm going to try to answer this at face value, then I'll respond to your sitch.

Here's the thing that so many H's can't seem to grasp. While she remains wayward, the WW feels very little guilt. Let's break this down into two parts. Part 1 is before the WW's genuine remorse, and part 2 is after remorse.

First, look at the WW before genuine remorse hits. She knows right from wrong, and the fact that she may not look you in the eyes could indicate that she knows she is/was lying, betraying, cheating, disrespecting, etc. There is likely some degree of guilt, just b/c she knows it is wrong to do these things. But it's not to the degree the H might assume or expect she should feel. The WW's mindset tells her she's justified. (Remember, she has been angry a long time, she just tried to keep it controlled). As long as she's blaming her H, why would she feel overcome with guilt? She may even go as far to verbally tell her family she didn't want anyone to get hurt, and let's be BFF's. The WW looks at it as if the H and kids were wounded in the fallout. Pretty cold, huh? This is not the girl you married. So, the short answer to your question of the WW feeling an overwhelming amount of guilt to the point that she cannot communicate about what's happening...Ö.is, "no". It's not due to overwhelming feelings of guilt.

Now let's look at the WW after she genuinely feels sorrow and regret for her deceit, betrayal, disrespect, destruction, etc. She takes full responsibility for her actions, She no longer justifies anything she did, and she doesn't blame her H for her A, etc. She can forgive her H for things in their past, and she let's go of the resentment. It is true repentance for her, which means she changes her ways. She should humbly apologize to her H. However, that's not to say she will. Is she eager to discuss everything with her H? Probably not. She is dealing with feelings of shame, embarrassment, self-loathing, humility, etc.

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like in my case or is the desire to communicate to save what is slipping away make it a necessity to talk with her partner to try and R?


I don't know how to answer this ^^^^^^^, b/c I'm not sure what you are asking. You've said she's always had trouble communicating. This has been a really big problem in the MR. So, now you don't understand why she can't open up and discuss what is happening? Let me tell you like this...ÖÖ.if the OM is anywhere in the picture...Ö.that cancels out everything. She can't have another guy in her head and desire to save her M at the same time. It's not going to happen.

Here's what I think. You are wanting her to tell you where the MR stands. You want to find a logical reason for why she's not discussing it. You see working things out (in any problem) by talking about it. If there's no discussion, you are lost as what to do. You want her to take the lead.

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She has showed a lot of signs that she is coming around but the only convo has come after a few drinks. I'm not taking the bait of whether it's a legit attempt or a drunken Plan B game.


"Coming around" how? Is she still in contact with OM?

When was the last time she had a serious conversation with you, without a few drinks in her?

Are you still going home after work and drinking with her?

You say she tends to open up when she's drinking. What does she talk about? Is this when she gets so emotional and tells you she is sorry for hurting you? Does she remember the next day what was said when she was drinking?

Didn't she ask you to attend an IC session with her? Have you?
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 09:29 PM
Originally Posted by pain18
Originally Posted by AndrewP

The choice is always that of the BS on what course they themselves follow. Few of the BS who've "thrown in the towel" and moved on to new lives seem to regret their choices from what I gather.


Like giving up too soon?


I'm by no means trying to speak for him, but I took this as we as the LBS finally relenting and accepting D and then doing the work to move on and at that point, if the WW does try to come back, a lot of LBS have moved on enough to not be interested in R.

I can see that happening in my case. I think once I move on, if I'm in a new R with an incredible woman who treats me right, why the he$$ would I want to go back and give her a second chance when she can't find it within herself to give me one right now?

I'm sort of in 'throw in the towel' mode. I feel like I've tried to do everything in my power to salvage this and to no avail. I'm letting the process work now, instead of actively trying to save my M. I'm gonna set back and do nothing.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 09:50 PM
Originally Posted by Wanted1
I'm gonna set back and do nothing.


This is a lot harder than trying to use logic on WW. But this solution seems to have a lot more upside versus option 1.

Thanks for the clarification.
Posted By: LH19 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 09:52 PM
Originally Posted by Wanted1
I think once I move on, if I'm in a new R with an incredible woman who treats me right, why the he$$ would I want to go back and give her a second chance when she can't find it within herself to give me one right now?


Wanted you are so desperately trying to get a second chance with a W who has cheated on you 3 times. Do you not see that it should be the other way around? What did you do to her that justified 3 affairs and two with your friends?
Something for IC.
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 10:19 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Wanted1
I think once I move on, if I'm in a new R with an incredible woman who treats me right, why the he$$ would I want to go back and give her a second chance when she can't find it within herself to give me one right now?


Wanted you are so desperately trying to get a second chance with a W who has cheated on you 3 times. Do you not see that it should be the other way around? What did you do to her that justified 3 affairs and two with your friends?
Something for IC.


I'm not desperate anymore. Do I want her to wake up and realize that she @#$%ed up royally and come to me begging for another chance so that our family can remain intact? Yes, I do, with the stipulation that she has a lot of work to do for that to happen.

But that isn't going to happen. Not any time soon, if ever. So, my choice is to move forward. I will tell you right now, if she came into the MBR tonight and said "let's just forget this and start over." My reaction would be: "Prove it. I'm done listening to what you say and taking you back too easy. Look where that got me the last 2 times....it's time for you to show me that you are worthy of me."
Posted By: ballast Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 11:11 PM
Wanted you are desperate and inherently for very much a right and noble reason...you want mostly for your children their family to be returned. Everyone gets that part. If you didn't have children, would you feel the same? I would suggest that when you DO NOT CARE if she wakes up/realizes THEN you are not desperate anymore.

And I hate to say this, but you don't really have a choice...moving forward for you and your children is the only thing you can do buddy. As LH says HOW were you so terrible to her that her actions are in any way justifiable? And I can guarantee you are sitting there reading this ready to give your life for your children to have their family. ZERO shame in that. I can't think of an LBS man/woman on here who does not exactly understand that. BUT at what cost to you AND whatever MR you can create out of the devastation WW has wrought? The pull within an LBS's soul between wanting to save their family for their children and saving themselves. I really believe that may be the hardest of all realities for a human being to accept. Patience and with time you will get more able to be at peace with...notice I did not say acceptance. I am at peace with the fact that my D will not have her family, but internally I do and will for my life rage at the seemingly terrible unfairness of it all. Give yourself the grace to understand that making the right choice for yourself does not mean you failed your family.

-B
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/18/18 11:17 PM
Wanted. You are justifiably hurting and wanting your W back and family whole. It f***ing hurts man. It's not fair to us in any way shape or form.

It's not fair to our kids. It's not fair that W has destroyed our family and cant see the destruction for what it is. I would love for my wife to break down and beg for me back. Of course I would prefer to keep my family whole. But I recognize that's not something I can even have hope for because it just hurts me. I accept that my WW has ended our family. WW doesnt want to remain M to me. I accept that.

I accept that I need to let her go. Maybe she will come back, maybe she will one day try and get me back. But I can only focus on myself and our kids right now. WWs break us emotionally.
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 01:16 AM
Guys, Iím not hurting nearly as much as I was a couple weeks ago. Iíve been pretty calm and even keel now for about 10 days or so. Iíve accepted that D is probably a 99% probability. I donít have any expectations that anything will change. Iím tired of trying to do ďsomethingĒ and focusing on saving the M. Iím now doing nothing and just continue down my path. I pray for strength, courage and trust in Him. Iím no longer praying for a miracle or for my W to finally see the light.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 01:32 AM
Originally Posted by Wanted1
Guys, Iím not hurting nearly as much as I was a couple weeks ago. Iíve been pretty calm and even keel now for about 10 days or so. Iíve accepted that D is probably a 99% probability. I donít have any expectations that anything will change. Iím tired of trying to do ďsomethingĒ and focusing on saving the M. Iím now doing nothing and just continue down my path. I pray for strength, courage and trust in Him. Iím no longer praying for a miracle or for my W to finally see the light.


Wanted, it's a roller coaster with a LOT of ups and downs. One moment you're feeling good and just accept the outcome, the next moment a memory comes up and reminds you of your sitch and derails you for a few days. Some people are better at riding it out until it is over. Others, like me, feel the highs and lows of this. Just this morning, as I was going to my car, I laughed that I was going through the 5 stages of grief quickly and repeatedly. Just last week, I was livid at WW's actions. I skipped the bargaining and hit depression (though that was exacerbated by our talk two days ago). Pretty soon, I'll be accepting. Then I end up going back to denial and starting the whole cycle again.

Just be mindful and have outlets to have emotional moments when needed. It's ok to backtrack your feelings. Sometimes, it's necessary.
Posted By: Wanted1 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 02:06 AM
Originally Posted by pain18
Originally Posted by Wanted1
Guys, Iím not hurting nearly as much as I was a couple weeks ago. Iíve been pretty calm and even keel now for about 10 days or so. Iíve accepted that D is probably a 99% probability. I donít have any expectations that anything will change. Iím tired of trying to do ďsomethingĒ and focusing on saving the M. Iím now doing nothing and just continue down my path. I pray for strength, courage and trust in Him. Iím no longer praying for a miracle or for my W to finally see the light.


Wanted, it's a roller coaster with a LOT of ups and downs. One moment you're feeling good and just accept the outcome, the next moment a memory comes up and reminds you of your sitch and derails you for a few days. Some people are better at riding it out until it is over. Others, like me, feel the highs and lows of this. Just this morning, as I was going to my car, I laughed that I was going through the 5 stages of grief quickly and repeatedly. Just last week, I was livid at WW's actions. I skipped the bargaining and hit depression (though that was exacerbated by our talk two days ago). Pretty soon, I'll be accepting. Then I end up going back to denial and starting the whole cycle again.

Just be mindful and have outlets to have emotional moments when needed. It's ok to backtrack your feelings. Sometimes, it's necessary.


Oh I know the roller coaster well. I have a season pass on it and was riding it daily. However, I was feeling the highs and lows a lot more often than Iíve been experiencing lately. Like I said, these last 10 days or so I havenít been careening downhill like I would in the past.
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 03:26 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Women are attracted to men with ambition. They are attracted to successful men. In our world, success usually equals financial security. Financial security is very attractive to women, b/c one of our basic needs is security. If we have a H, we are going to look to him to bring it. It's our nature. Even if we work, we still expect him to work, too.


Sandi2, came across your quotes on this forum and one thing that specifically caught my attention is above. Have a few questions that I need answers to -

1) Is this above quote true for every woman?
2) This is a very commonplace issue when the WAW earns more than the LBS. If this was the problem (Reason for WAW to leave) during the marriage, how can it be overcome later on? Even if you learn your mistakes and start working on it, being successful may take years or decades. what is your suggestion on how the LBS can overcome this?
Posted By: lost8 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 03:52 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2


"Coming around" how? Is she still in contact with OM? She has showed a lot more emotion and has been pursuing, I just found out last night yes she does communicate with him, said he's still a friend.....I drew the last line that if contact doesn't cease we're done

When was the last time she had a serious conversation with you, without a few drinks in her? Can't say I remember

Are you still going home after work and drinking with her? Yes

You say she tends to open up when she's drinking. What does she talk about? Is this when she gets so emotional and tells you she is sorry for hurting you? Does she remember the next day what was said when she was drinking? Her convos are usually all about her, but she does get emotional about us splitting up...and doesn't always remember the next day

Didn't she ask you to attend an IC session with her? Have you? I saw her IC briefly alone before she went in and addressed her drinking and where I stood that I am ready to walk away. I wanted to get ICs opinion on sitch because W is starting intense therapy for PTSD. I expressed that I would not start MC while OM was present and she agreed.






Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 09:16 PM
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Originally Posted by sandi2

Women are attracted to men with ambition. They are attracted to successful men. In our world, success usually equals financial security. Financial security is very attractive to women, b/c one of our basic needs is security. If we have a H, we are going to look to him to bring it. It's our nature. Even if we work, we still expect him to work, too.


Sandi2, came across your quotes on this forum and one thing that specifically caught my attention is above. Have a few questions that I need answers to -

1) Is this above quote true for every woman?


Well times have changed a lot of things and there might be one female out there that says she is attracted to a lazy man who doesn't have enough drive to get out of bed and go work to provide for his family...Ö...but I kind of doubt it.

In the animal kingdom, the females and males looks for certain qualities in a potential mates. I think it's true with humans, too. It may go back to the female being the weaker vessel and historically she depended on the male to do the harder more physical demanding work. She had to have someone to provide and protect her family while she was birthing and nursing the babies. Therefore, in order to chose the best mate who could fit the bill.....she is naturally attracted to certain traits in the male.

As I previously stated, women are attracted to successful men, b/c we usually equate success with financial security. I'm just saying that it is a natural attraction to how she sees him. Having security means a lot to women. However, that's not to say she can't fall in love with some guy in high school, get married, and raise a family while they both hold down full time jobs until the day they retire. The point I'm making is that the H is not lazy. We don't normally associate laziness with success or even a paycheck. She's not going to be attracted to the guy who is laying around the house, finding some excuse for not being able to find the right job for him, or some other b.s. while she is working to support the family. That's when you'll see the W's respect start fading real quick. Sure, it's wonderful to have a H who is pulling in the big bucks, but the main thing she needs to see is his feet hitting the floor every morning, going to a paying job. He may be blue collar or white collar...Ö..but he's doing all that he can. If he can get a higher paying job, that's great......but the point is to work at something. Healthy men should not sit home while the W supports the family.

I think it takes a level of maturity to be able to handle a situation where the W's salary is considerably higher than her H's. Maturity on both sides. Sometimes the man has an ego problem, and sometimes the woman has a lack of respect. Actually, I don't know that the main issue boils down to the dollar amount, as much as it is about the job title/position. How do their peers see them, knowing she's making a lot more than her H? For instance, say he has been working at the same factory, doing the same boring job for twenty years and it's pretty clear there's nowhere to advance...Ö...and if his W has some glamorous career where she is flying all over the world and attending high society parties...Ö...do you see what I mean? If either the H or W feels that she has outgrown him.........it could easily become a point of conflict. Here's the cold, blunt truth. Women need to feel admiration for their H. The W needs to "look up" at her H. If she begins to see herself elevated above him (as in earning more money, social status, importance, etc)...Ö.there's going to be trouble.

Quote
2) This is a very commonplace issue when the WAW earns more than the LBS. If this was the problem (Reason for WAW to leave) during the marriage, how can it be overcome later on? Even if you learn your mistakes and start working on it, being successful may take years or decades. what is your suggestion on how the LBS can overcome this?


How can it be overcome later..........you mean with the same W? Like I said, I think there is usually more to the story than just differences in their salary. If the W left the M b/c her H did not measure up to her expectations of more money from his side of the street, I would check to see why he was not drawing a higher salary. Is it his lack of ambition, or is he just stuck in a low salary job with no hope of advancing? Maybe it's not him. Maybe he has a demanding and unrealistic W. Does he want to find a higher paying job and put in the necessary work in order to keep his W? I suppose that would be up to him.

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Even if you learn your mistakes and start working on it, being successful may take years or decades. what is your suggestion on how the LBS can overcome this?


Well, what was the mistake? Did you have a tendency to be lazy, a slacker, failed to follow through with training/education? Did you lack zeal, no passion, no drive to advance? Were you perfectly contented to remain in your current position, although it didn't pay enough to suit your W? What would you need to do to earn a higher salary? Would it mean changing jobs or changing careers? Big difference, IMO. What would be the drawback, and would there be any advantages or benefits, other than more money? These are the type things I would suggest checking out. There is a difference in a guy who won't buckle down and bring home a sufficient paycheck b/c he doesn't want to put in the hours or whatever..Ö.and the one who is doing the best job he can with the qualifications he holds. If he wants to do whatever is necessary to get the qualifications, that's up to him.
Posted By: neffer Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/18 09:19 PM
Sandi, we need you at Steveís sitch. Please.
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/20/18 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
How can it be overcome later..........you mean with the same W? Like I said, I think there is usually more to the story than just differences in their salary. If the W left the M b/c her H did not measure up to her expectations of more money from his side of the street, I would check to see why he was not drawing a higher salary. Is it his lack of ambition, or is he just stuck in a low salary job with no hope of advancing? Maybe it's not him. Maybe he has a demanding and unrealistic W. Does he want to find a higher paying job and put in the necessary work in order to keep his W? I suppose that would be up to him.


Originally Posted by sandi2
Well, what was the mistake? Did you have a tendency to be lazy, a slacker, failed to follow through with training/education? Did you lack zeal, no passion, no drive to advance? Were you perfectly contented to remain in your current position, although it didn't pay enough to suit your W? What would you need to do to earn a higher salary? Would it mean changing jobs or changing careers? Big difference, IMO. What would be the drawback, and would there be any advantages or benefits, other than more money? These are the type things I would suggest checking out. There is a difference in a guy who won't buckle down and bring home a sufficient paycheck b/c he doesn't want to put in the hours or whatever..Ö.and the one who is doing the best job he can with the qualifications he holds. If he wants to do whatever is necessary to get the qualifications, that's up to him.



Thanks Sandi2. Above details are all good deal of information to understand the dynamics of a woman's relationship wrt money and H in a family. I think I do recognize several faults which i feel led to the downfall of my previous marraige apart from the SSM issues that already existed.

Let me list these so that I can start to learn to address these issues going forward which I already am -

1) Ex used to consider me a lazy person. Yes to some extent I was lazy working from home whenever I wanted instead of heading to office. But the issue was my office commute was extremely far and I had to switch several commutes to reach there everyday. Hence I found more convenience in managing at home. I think this was negative. But I was always on my feet active in sports and my outdoor hobbies. Ex never used to engage in any.
2) Societal Status - Ex considered her community having a higher status than mine and hence her disrespect towards my family was very high to the extent that she was openly criticizing and cutting sarcastic remarks against my family and culture whenever she pleased. Not sure what the solution is for this or if there is any.
3) I am not very ambitious and in fact I always prefer a work-life balance, My job title is fairly good ( a white collar) however not that much as comparable to my Ex status in her job or salary level. Although I supported to acheive what she wanted in life during her entire study times, logistically , physically and emotionally, she became more critical of me as work pressure increased and days went by. (To the point, she called out that my job is useless and I idle my time and hers is a lot to handle)
This made a significant difference as Ex started earning much more than I did and caused a huge drift in our lives.
4) For the SSM issues, Ex was emotionally closed out on me and had major trust issues. At one point she thought I was living with her only for the money she earned and nothing more.
5) I was a bit of a spendthrift, However NEVER neglected her hers and our basic needs and family needs. I spent the entire time from my money for both of us. She just accumulated all her money in her bank account.
6) Her concern was i changed job too many times. I did that for ease and flexibility and also for work-life balance and to an extent keeping in mind the progression of my career.

But my point is, don't you think in a normal marriage at least a majority of the above points are true to some extent?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/23/18 06:42 PM
Quote
But my point is, don't you think in a normal marriage at least a majority of the above points are true to some extent?


Well, I suppose. I also believe whenever a person marries someone from a different culture, religion, social or financial status...Ö..it can bring added stress to the MR. Almost everything adds stress to a MR. Even when the two people have similar backgrounds, there is going to be some differences in how they view things. It's up to the couple to figure out (or get help) in how to make it work in spite of all their differences. Learning how to adjust to our circumstances and working together is a big deal. Not cooperating and expecting the other spouse to do all the changing does not work well at all.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/24/18 07:03 PM
Originally Posted by Nutcrac
Originally Posted by sandi2
How can it be overcome later..........you mean with the same W? Like I said, I think there is usually more to the story than just differences in their salary. If the W left the M b/c her H did not measure up to her expectations of more money from his side of the street, I would check to see why he was not drawing a higher salary. Is it his lack of ambition, or is he just stuck in a low salary job with no hope of advancing? Maybe it's not him. Maybe he has a demanding and unrealistic W. Does he want to find a higher paying job and put in the necessary work in order to keep his W? I suppose that would be up to him.


Originally Posted by sandi2
Well, what was the mistake? Did you have a tendency to be lazy, a slacker, failed to follow through with training/education? Did you lack zeal, no passion, no drive to advance? Were you perfectly contented to remain in your current position, although it didn't pay enough to suit your W? What would you need to do to earn a higher salary? Would it mean changing jobs or changing careers? Big difference, IMO. What would be the drawback, and would there be any advantages or benefits, other than more money? These are the type things I would suggest checking out. There is a difference in a guy who won't buckle down and bring home a sufficient paycheck b/c he doesn't want to put in the hours or whatever..Ö.and the one who is doing the best job he can with the qualifications he holds. If he wants to do whatever is necessary to get the qualifications, that's up to him.



Thanks Sandi2. Above details are all good deal of information to understand the dynamics of a woman's relationship wrt money and H in a family. I think I do recognize several faults which i feel led to the downfall of my previous marraige apart from the SSM issues that already existed.

Let me list these so that I can start to learn to address these issues going forward which I already am -

1) Ex used to consider me a lazy person. Yes to some extent I was lazy working from home whenever I wanted instead of heading to office. But the issue was my office commute was extremely far and I had to switch several commutes to reach there everyday. Hence I found more convenience in managing at home. I think this was negative. But I was always on my feet active in sports and my outdoor hobbies. Ex never used to engage in any.
2) Societal Status - Ex considered her community having a higher status than mine and hence her disrespect towards my family was very high to the extent that she was openly criticizing and cutting sarcastic remarks against my family and culture whenever she pleased. Not sure what the solution is for this or if there is any.
3) I am not very ambitious and in fact I always prefer a work-life balance, My job title is fairly good ( a white collar) however not that much as comparable to my Ex status in her job or salary level. Although I supported to acheive what she wanted in life during her entire study times, logistically , physically and emotionally, she became more critical of me as work pressure increased and days went by. (To the point, she called out that my job is useless and I idle my time and hers is a lot to handle)
This made a significant difference as Ex started earning much more than I did and caused a huge drift in our lives.
4) For the SSM issues, Ex was emotionally closed out on me and had major trust issues. At one point she thought I was living with her only for the money she earned and nothing more.
5) I was a bit of a spendthrift, However NEVER neglected her hers and our basic needs and family needs. I spent the entire time from my money for both of us. She just accumulated all her money in her bank account.
6) Her concern was i changed job too many times. I did that for ease and flexibility and also for work-life balance and to an extent keeping in mind the progression of my career.

But my point is, don't you think in a normal marriage at least a majority of the above points are true to some extent?



This is also part of my sitch. My WW has a graduate degree. I do not. I have a great job and make great money and recently got a promotion. However, WW makes quite a bit more than I do. I heard the "You only love me for my money" crap, or "you are using me" crap. That line came after WW started talking to OM, who also has a high paying job, but of course he is 20 years my senior. I am starting school in January. That won't really help me now but it will help me down the road. I will get into a management role in the next 12 months for sure.

However, now that I cut my money from the joint account and my lifestyle hasnt changed at all. I havent had to get rid of my car that my WW hates. Nothing has changed for me. This shows her that I am perfectly fine without her. I have asked her for nothing.
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/27/18 06:52 PM
I feel the issue is once they decide something drastic like a separation / divorce, they will take up any lame excuse to get away from you! and that keeps going on until we are completely out of their lives. This is exactly what has happened in both our cases.
From the many women I have been conversing, they look for that new romantic feeling elsewhere outside of this relationship till their cloud 9 feelings die away after a while and when they prepare to hop on to something new.
Posted By: GFT00 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/27/18 07:15 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
But my point is, don't you think in a normal marriage at least a majority of the above points are true to some extent?


Well, I suppose. I also believe whenever a person marries someone from a different culture, religion, social or financial status...…..it can bring added stress to the MR. Almost everything adds stress to a MR. Even when the two people have similar backgrounds, there is going to be some differences in how they view things. It's up to the couple to figure out (or get help) in how to make it work in spite of all their differences. Learning how to adjust to our circumstances and working together is a big deal. Not cooperating and expecting the other spouse to do all the changing does not work well at all.







Sandi2,

I will first state that I'm not in a optimistic state but also not a total pessimistic state. I believe that a lot of what I've learned in DB is really important and WHAT I WOULDN'T do to know this information a year ago. My question to you since you seem to have a better understanding of everything relationship related. How often does DB work in getting your partner back? I see and have experience a lot of positive come from GAL. Like I said, maybe because I am a state where I am realizing that my WAW and myself will not end up together I sound negative. I just want to make it clear that I have gotten a lot of positive from reading the book, getting coaching, and interacting with people in similar situations. But I will not reach my main goal which was to get my partner back and I wonder how more often it happens that people implementing DB reach the goal of getting their partners back? I read through the threads and it just doesn't seem to be often. And as much as that [censored] I know a lot of positive comes from DB.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/27/18 10:50 PM
Quote
I just want to make it clear that I have gotten a lot of positive from reading the book, getting coaching, and interacting with people in similar situations. But I will not reach my main goal which was to get my partner back and I wonder how more often it happens that people implementing DB reach the goal of getting their partners back? I read through the threads and it just doesn't seem to be often. And as much as that [censored] I know a lot of positive comes from DB.


It would really be interesting to know how many D's were busted due to MWD's books, YouTube articles, and the DB forum.

I think "getting their partner back" is the initial goal of those who invest in the books, join the board, etc. People who implement the message of DBing, will leave being a stronger person than when they first arrived. We love to celebrate the news of another D busted, and we celebrate the Phoenix that arises from the ashes. smile
Posted By: Kwandoku Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 02/15/19 04:45 PM
Sandi, just wanted to thank you for your insights, candidness, and actionable lists!

I really do believe I'd be in a much worse state having not found DB and your posts. So again, thank you so much.

Through reading I've realised that my WAS is actually a WW.

I found evidence of her A today and confronted her - told her she'd no longer be staying in the MBR, and that we will be officially separating.

She is in deep denial and that the OM is just a friend. Yeah right, a "friend" she booked flights with to go to Singapore in April.

Up until this point I was implementing your list as best as possible in the hopes that we could work on our R when she comes out of her fog (when I still thought she was WAS/MLC rather than WW), but now, I can't imagine ever getting back to you.

Here's my thread if you'd some more context, and of course your feedback would be most welcome: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2837529&page=5
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 02/15/19 10:22 PM
Thank you for such kind words. I'm sorry to hear that your W is having an affair. It's good you find support from the DB board, and I hope you will stick with posting & reading.
Posted By: Kwandoku Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 02/16/19 04:55 AM
Hi Sandi, I think I'm at a critical juncture in my DBing and would love your guidance.

I'm about to have the discussion around the logistics of our separation tomorrow.

How do I remain detached without automatically making the D inevitable.

I've posted more details in my thread if you could have a look.

Thanks so much!
Posted By: lost8 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 02/17/19 08:28 PM
Hi Sandi

I updated my sitch as what you wrote struck a nerve as it was again spot on 100%! She said she would do anything at this point. Is this where I lay out the work that she would have to do or does that have to be offered?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 02/18/19 01:31 PM
I'm glad to hear from you, Lost. I will look at your update. If she says she will do anything to save the MR, then lay it out as to what you require from her in order to feel safe in a relationship with her. You might want to explain how transparency works for both of you. For her, it helps to keep her on track by giving accountability, and it is a way of "earning" backing trust that she broke.

Until I explained the side of transparency from the recovering WW point of view, I don't know that the LBS's on the board had heard or thought of it being helpful for the one who was trying to repair the trust. (I'm just going by what they told me at the time.) Speaking as the recovering WW, I wanted to show my H that I was not going on line to make contact with OM or look at dating sites, etc. Could I have bought a secret phone? Sure, in fact, I already had one, but I threw it away, b/c I had decided to do the right thing.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 02/18/19 03:36 PM
The devil is in the details. smile ............. I don't think she (the WW) is serious yet.

Copied from Lost8's thread:

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Posted by Lost8
Realizing that I am in the exact sitch that Sandi describes I wanted another confirmation...I know wrong thing to do. Friday I was able to confirm she was with OM. I called her out an told her everything she had been saying to me was a lie and I was moving out. NC yesterday and she had a gf call me crying saying should would do anything, what would it take? I said nothing I was done, I want space and peace for our family. Her requests were desperation obviously because I will not engage with her at all. She pleaded through her gf and said she would do anything which turned into agreeing to sign an agreement. Then a short time later turned to aggression via text.

This morning she said she didn't want to live like this and wanted to discuss. She started by saying that no one will ever come between us which of course I said it already did. She again said she would do anything. I just don't know if I care to be with her ever again...in ANY capacity. All I said is it best that we need space from each other. Again she started out very upset then said let me see the agreement which I laid out what she would have to pony up for me to leave and she said she couldn't afford even though I padded the numbers in her favor.

I walked away and then she started spouting off about when I was leaving, told her I couldn't without her contributing to household bills unless I stop paying mortgage. I refused to engage in any hostility and did not answer any of her banter.

Not sure what I want still but do I approach at this point and since she offered to do anything tell I need the passwords, access to bank and cc statements, Full disclosure at all times? Should I see if this is the point were she felt maybe she lost control of me finally? Even if she did all this still not sure if I would even take her back, but do I see if she is willing at this point?

Like Sandi said...what kind of work is she doing...do I put her to the test?


This is the copy of my response to Lost on his thread:

First of all, I have to agree with Neffer that your WW is not "there" just yet. I think you need to make her work harder to get you back. If you make it too easy, she won't stick to transparency or anything else.

I don't like the fact she had a GF calling on her behalf. What you and WW have to say needs to be just between the two of you (and later a MC), not friends or family. I know why she used the GF, but it's no good. It's a tactic women use. The GF was to pave the way and soften you. Was the GF crying, or your WW? Did GF tell you WW was crying?

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I said nothing I was done, I want space and peace for our family


Good!

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She pleaded through her gf and said she would do anything which turned into agreeing to sign an agreement. Then a short time later turned to aggression via text.


Well let me tell you about this aggression, okay? I assume you mean she turned aggressive. This is the rebellious side that wants to keep her in charge of how things will be called. She doesn't want you calling the shots and requiring her to do anything she doesn't want to do. In other words, she is not being genuine about "doing anything" to save the M. She has to overcome her stubborn pride and rebellious spirit, if she expects to keep this M. She thought she would get her GF to intervene on her behalf and squeeze out some tears and you'd be good to go. smirk

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Again she started out very upset then said let me see the agreement which I laid out what she would have to pony up for me to leave and she said she couldn't afford even though I padded the numbers in her favor.


Thus her phony attempts to patch up the MR! ^^^^^^^^^^

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I refused to engage in any hostility and did not answer any of her banter.


Good!

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Not sure what I want still but do I approach at this point and since she offered to do anything tell I need the passwords, access to bank and cc statements, Full disclosure at all times? Should I see if this is the point were she felt maybe she lost control of me finally? Even if she did all this still not sure if I would even take her back, but do I see if she is willing at this point?


I think you need to hold the line until you see some of her anger and aggression dissipate. She believes she has control of this situation and has no intention of succumbing to your terms. I suggest you tell her you need space & time away from her b/c you have a lot of decisions to make about your future. Tell her not to be texting, b/c you don't won't be answering......and not to get any of her friends to intervene for her. This will definitely put her focus on wondering what you will do. Let her squirm. Let her get mad. So what? She will probably contact OM out of desperation, but what else is knew? If she thinks she's lost her Plan B, she's going to start sweating.......which is good. She needs to worry that she's really lost you!

So, rather than hand her a list of requirements right off the bat, I think I would simply tell her (if she continues to pursue you) that you will need to be convinced things are truly over with her & any third party. If she starts swearing on someone's life or grave.......inform her that unfortunately her word is currently worth very little. If she persists in wanting to save the M or ask what can she do to prove to you........then you can bring up the passwords, transparency, etc.

Neffer may have something to add to this.

This is a very critical time, and it's the point that many LBH's don't pull back hard enough b/c they are too eager to save the M and afraid the WW won't pursue. If you are not certain you want to try it again, then take all the time you need.
Posted By: AnthonyA Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 03/12/19 05:58 PM
Hey Sandi, I appreciate all your help so far on my thread. So you know, my W and I are going to separate. She is moving to an apartment down the street. It is just a 1 bedroom and won't have washer/dryer hook up. This is a temporary separation to let her see what single life would be.

She mentioned keeping her part time job to help get the kids on and off the bus and then watching them in the summer. We have not talked about logistics but I don't want her thinking she would have the luxury of staying at "our" house and all the extra room and yard where she can do whatever and let the kids play. Also, since there is no washer/dryer hook up she had asked if she could do the laundry at "our" house still. I made the mistake of saying yes. No reading a lot of your reflections, I should have said No.

I am trying to figure out how to go about saying, you want to see what single life looks like or divorce life looks like, you need to do these things are your own and not at this house. Also, she has mentioned that she does not want to impact the kids as much as possible. I did make the mistake that divorce would make impacts to the kids. We still need to come up with logistics and such. I guess I can backtrack on the washer/dryer stuff at that point and other things to say that if we were divorced, you wouldn't have access to that stuff. What is your suggestion on this. You can reply here or in my thread. TIA
Posted By: Gomez Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 07/19/19 06:56 AM
Hi Sandi. This is a brilliantly insightful thread but I need some guidance if you can spare the time. I had the BD 1 year ago 6 months ago, complete with the ILYBINILWY speech. My W and I still live together with our 2 boys as the house sale has fallen through twice. She filed 6 months ago. Throughout the latter years of our R, my wife has said I was cold, unloving and didnít respect her and I agree this is how I was. So to try to fix it, I tried to be more loving and caring. However, I know she had feelings for a friend of a friend and this went as far as sexting, so an EA. I know it didnít go physical (I donít want to say how I know but I know, not think). Sheís always on her phone but she says sheís not in contact with him anymore. Iíve seen the last message was a couple of months ago but theoretically she could be deleting them. My question is, do I still treat her as a WW? It seems to me the way to treat a WW is different to a W that has been starved of love and affection for so long. Having said that, the love and affection has meant we now get on better than we have for a long time but she still says she wants to D. Maybe sheís cake eating, maybe Iím a plan B, maybe Iím letting myself get in the friend zone?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 07/19/19 03:28 PM
Thank you for your kind words. I will find your thread and post my thoughts about your sitch there.
Posted By: BenB Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 07/19/19 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Thank you for your kind words. I will find your thread and post my thoughts about your sitch there.



Hi Sandi,

If you at some point would have time to look at mine as well, that would be highly appreciated. I just started my second thread.

Hope you are well
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 07/21/19 12:08 PM
Hi Ben, I would be happy to take a look and give my thoughts. Thank you.
Posted By: ozman Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 07/22/19 03:40 PM
Hey sandi. Awesome thread. Great insight. My thread is kinda long cause Iím really hard headed and it takes me awhile to absorb advice. Which I have gotten a lot of

If you have time could you look at my sitch and tell me what you think. Offer your insight into my W. To be honest I did a pretty good job of losing her respect with my insecurities and financial blunders.
Posted By: BenB Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 07/31/19 10:43 AM
Hi Sandi,

Would you mind looking at my latest posts and let me know if you have any thoughts?
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/17/19 02:59 PM
Hi Sandi,

First of all thanks a lot for all your threads and comments, I must have read some of them twice.

I recently separated and we were living in a foreign country. She claimed our marriage was dead because I neglected her and focused on work to provide for our two children S1 and S6. She has moved to the city we are both originally from with the children. I know for sure there is no OM. Here are some things I heard at home:

> I dont love you and I dont want to be with you
> It is all your fault, you need to change and we will see what the future brings as I cannot predict it
> I do not trust you and I do not trust you can change
> I dont like the man you have turned into
> You ruined my life and my dream of a joint family

She threatened me with some harsh things I wont quote and got me to sign an agreement that assumes I was to stay in the foreign country and then visit every 15 days.

It's only been 2 months since she moved out, I have managed to relocate with work to be in the country we are originally from and hence I can push to have the agreement modified. Here is the question. I am all for saving my marriage and I want to avoid conflict but I can get a lawyer to fight for a new agreement that covers me and the children. I had given myself a deadline to do this and it is not yet but she keeps preventing me from seeing the children if outside of my visiting time even now that I am on holidays and 3 streets away from her.

Also, we never went to MC or similar and she claims she has done everything and has a clean mind. She did complain to me many times but I withdrew like an idiot, I am working on making the changes GAL and LRT but how can I get to her if all I get is contempt, ignorance and space?

I am 200% up for saving my marriage, I know her, what she has said and I genuinely think we can fix this but all I get is pressure from outsiders telling me how idiot I am I cannot see she has built a life for herself without me and is pushing for me to be a pension and a visiting father. Not only do I need to remain calm and confident, work on myself and fight to keep my mind from thinking about my failed marriage, I also need to fight external pressure that sees me as the hanged- up-poor-in-love-thing. How I can get to her? How can I make her see I can change for real and bring her happiness? that I am now the lighthouse for her family. I have always been a great father and I have a brilliant career (we were buying our first house in this foreign country) but I took my marriage for granted.

I am very concerned about my children, now is when they need me the most and I can only be there every 15 days.

Thanks a lot and keep up the great work you all do, this site is my new man cave.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/17/19 05:11 PM
Hi Paco. Thanks for reaching out on my thread. I'm sorry to hear about your marriage problems. I think it may easier if I find your story and respond on your thread, okay? See you there. smile
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/19/19 11:29 AM
Hi Sandi!

I have replied to you on my thread! Thanks a lot
Posted By: Pack_19 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/20/19 02:35 PM
Hi Sandy,

Can I ask you to visit my thread again please? some Q there for you! Thanks for all the help!
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/25/20 04:49 PM
Nice to see you back again Sandi, hope all is well with you.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/25/20 05:10 PM
Thanks, Cadet. I have struggled with some health issues, but hopefully, it's on the mend.
Posted By: CT1118 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/25/20 05:41 PM
I hope you are well Sandi. You and Cadet. I've not come here in almost two years I think. You both did an amazing thing in helping me back in 2016. Not sure why I felt compelled to stop by today, perhaps it was just to wish the best.
All of you reading Sandi's posts, Cadet's, Job's etc. listen to them...not to be better at your marriage, but to become a better you. Only by knowing how to improve the relationship you have been in the longest, the one with yourself, can your relationship with others reach its fullest potential. I am a better father, professional, and partner to my former WAS from having listened. These hard lessons we learn here come with heartfelt results.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/25/20 06:59 PM
Hey Sandi! Good to see you back! Hope your health issues continue to resolve... Being sick is a real pita!
Posted By: IronWill Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/25/20 08:44 PM
Hi Sandi -

Sorry to hear of your health issues. I wish you a speedy recovery smile

I have no questions, really - but I did want to take this opportunity to tell you that I have read many of your threads and posts on this forum, and all of them have been very wise, eye-opening and enormously insightful. Some of them have gotten me through the most difficult times of my life.

Thank you so much. We are very fortunate to have you here.

Take care smile
Posted By: Mach40 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/26/20 05:16 PM
Sandi, when you get a chance, can you review my thread/posts and give some of your insight. Thanks
https://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2882392#Post2882392
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/27/20 12:59 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Thanks, Cadet. I have struggled with some health issues, but hopefully, it's on the mend.


Well I am not happy to learn about health issues but happy to hear that they are on the mend.

We are at a time in our life when we must really take care of ourselves.

I am so aware of that myself.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/28/20 03:13 PM
Thank you all for the encouragement.
Posted By: Mach40 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/28/20 05:49 PM
Sometimes you just need me time and need to rest.. Rest well, read, smell the fresh air, drink some vino and sit all day doing nothing important except self.
Posted By: Drh2001 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/31/20 08:28 PM
sandi2,

I'm writing to thank you for your insights about wayward wives. Everything you wrote about WWs has come true. Absolutely everything. I read all your posts for newcomers on WWs and they matched the behavior I saw in mine.

I found this forum just over a year ago, and even though I just filed for divorce last week I still hope one day my WW and I can reconcile and start over.

I take full responsibility for my part in the downfall of the M. I was not perfect. My behavior contributed towards creating an atmosphere that allowed for her resentment, bitterness and disrespect to flourish. We resented each other for years due to our differences and never sought counseling. The last thing she said to me on the day she announced her separation was that she wanted an emotional connection. And that was it - she went out and found one. Since then her personality has transformed into someone I don't know. It's as if someone swapped her SIM card out.

WW is in complete denial and has thrown everything away and left me during the holidays to go live with OM. I have two daughters so I lose them 50% of the time. The irony of our situation is that WW is a full time mom to his kids but a part time one to mine.

You have no idea how valuable your insights are. I think you should write a book about wayward spouses. You are correct that traditional methods for repairing a marriage do not work with a wayward spouse. The mindset is focused on rebellion and satisfying their needs. They are not looking for changes their betrayed spouse can make because they've already checked out.

I think before any broken marriage can be saved, the distinction has to be made first between a WAW and a WW otherwise much time can be lost if the wrong approach is taken.

I have kept a journal since last year when I got the bomb drop. It's sad seeing a good person rapidly change their character and nature. We were raised Christians so she does have a moral foundation.

I emphasize again - please write a book on this. The betrayed and the wayward need this material. You could write for both. I have thoroughly searched the web and there is nothing out there other than what you've posted. The closest thing I found was affair fog but there is nothing specific about the symptoms you describe.

Thank you again for your contribution to this forum and have a happy new year.


Posted By: BB205 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 12/31/20 10:33 PM
I wish there were some way to access a WH viewpoint. My husband of 38 years started a relationship with a a woman - he says - after becoming "lost" and "over" my depression. I had no idea. I think that the male version of this is different.

He had no commitment to her. She was the same age. He had no intention of leaving me ( I read the emails ) She had never been married or had children ( we have 4 adult children) This went on for 2 years- a EA that went to a PA.


I'm heart broken. He DB'd 6 months ago and I'm still getting it together.

We are working on our new marriage. He is remorseful . no contact with the AP for 6 months . We are intimate ( never stopped the whole time).
Any suggestions for a LBS that is working on repairing her marriage? Sorry if this is a hijack. I don't get the forum
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/02/21 06:12 PM
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I'm writing to thank you for your insights about wayward wives. Everything you wrote about WWs has come true. Absolutely everything. I read all your posts for newcomers on WWs and they matched the behavior I saw in mine.


Your words are very encouraging for me. I wasn't on the board last year as much as previous years, but hopefully, I can start putting in more time. Whenever I hear someone personally thank me, it's like a shot in the arm. It's not b/c I am looking for praise, but b/c someone has been helped.....and that makes it worth the time invested.

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You have no idea how valuable your insights are. I think you should write a book about wayward spouses. You are correct that traditional methods for repairing a marriage do not work with a wayward spouse. The mindset is focused on rebellion and satisfying their needs. They are not looking for changes their betrayed spouse can make because they've already checked out.


Thank you......and what a compliment! Some members might tell you that I've written posts long enough to resemble a book. blush

Absolutely correct about WW's not looking for changes in their betrayed spouse. They don't even particularly desire changes (at that point), although, they still hold resentment and blame everything on the H. In other words, the husband could try to be Super Husband and the WW's heart would still not be phased. I've read so many posts where the WW would even tell the LBH that she had noticed his changes, but it's too late. In other words, she no longer cares if he changes. Any changes he makes should be for one reason, and that's b/c he wants to be a better man. Unfortunately, many newcomers are so consumed with the idea of doing something to win back their WW that they aren't even interested in making changes just for themselves. If they can't become the husband who can change her direction, then it's like they don't hear us telling them to work on themselves as individuals. Besides, when the WW turns cold and often has another guy in the wings, the H who caters to her and is trying to make up for the past......is really wasting his time & energy. B/c of the WW's mindset, the H has to present himself as a firm (strong) and confident male who does not tolerate disrespect. Men with NGS have a lot of trouble in this area. Some have asked me how to know when they are being disrespected, and how to enforce tough love. To me, that's so sad, but I understand it better after reading about NGS.

LBH's who can see their part of the breakdown usually have a strong desire to have a do-over and prove themselves worthy of their W. Although I get it, this type of thinking can cripple a nice-guy's work, b/c he's afraid she'll see him as his "old self" instead of how he wants to represent his new self. He wants to be all warm & fuzzy, but the WW needs a man who is stronger than her, and who will stand up to her and call her out on her BS. IMHO, the majority of newcomer H's who have a WW, want to skip working on the man, and jump to working on the role as a H.........which is actually backwards and usually doesn't have the desired affect with waywards. In order to be a better H, they first have to work on their manhood. She fell in love with you as a man, before she knew you as a H......right? So, dig deep and evaluate yourself as a man, and be proactive in whatever areas need improvement. When you get the "man" fixed, it will flow over into your relationships. While the WW is lost in la-la land, the LBH can make valuable use of that time to focus on himself. Not in a selfish sense, but to enrich his life, improve himself, challenge himself, and grow as a man.

The LBH has to improve the "man" before he can be the husband who can effectively deal with a wayward wife. He has to have the b@lls to tell her to get out, if she refuses to treat him respectfully (as a man and as her H). I don't mean he threatens her every time, but within himself he is prepared to separate if she continues to show disrespect.

Even if she is remorseful, and even if they reconcile, there will be times she'll say or do something that throws shade at him, and he cannot afford to let it slide, or else they will slide right back into the same old sitch. I think some LBH's have the mindset that once the divorce is busted, he can return to "normal life"........which for some, means they let down their guard and start allowing the W's words or actions slide without him dealing with her. By dealing, I mean he confronts her and enforces a boundary, if she doesn't truly apologize. If she doesn't apologize and she gets mad, he still sticks to his personal boundaries on how he will be respected. Here's the thing........he should never want to return to the relationship they previously had, b/c she didn't respect him as a man. That's the bottom line to this entire situation with wayward wives. They lose respect, and they build deep resentment toward the H, and rebel. They have a host of other terrible traits, but those three are the basic foundation, IMHO.

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I think before any broken marriage can be saved, the distinction has to be made first between a WAW and a WW otherwise much time can be lost if the wrong approach is taken
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I agree, but it's not defined in Michele's books as wayward, and she doesn't separate WAW and WW. Some say it doesn't matter, b/c you still follow the basic DB principles. However, I do believe there is a lot of misunderstanding or interpretation of what those principles are. They get bogged down in the simple everyday things, and don't know how to stay balanced. They don't know how to conduct themselves and/or interact with their spouse on a day-to-day basis. If I tell them not to try to captivate their spouse by talking too much........they go totally cold/silent. See what I mean?

Like I said previously, most LBH's who come here are so filled with fear of losing their family, they can't seem to find a balance in learning how to incorporate a new or different approach and interaction with their wayward spouse. I can't tell you how many H's I've seen label their wayward wife as MLC, b/c they had rather her have a MLC than to be wayward. Plus, I've seen some who simply couldn't/wouldn't apply tough love methods, like enforcing effective boundaries. Some even moved to the MLC forum, maybe to get us off their back, IDK. I honestly wonder if some used the MLC label as an excuse for their spouse's bad behavior. You know, like some try to pin the cause to medication (or lack thereof), depression, menopause, etc. I understand when a H is trying to find answers to why his W is changing in front of his eyes, but I think many H's go into denial when waywardness is mentioned. It's like, "Please God, let anything be wrong with her, except waywardness!"

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We were raised Christians so she does have a moral foundation.


In the end, it was that very foundation that helped guide me back to solid ground. In other words, I knew I should feel remorse, but I didn't feel it. So, I prayed, confessed everything, and asked God to help me feel remorse for what I had done. I knew I could not get rid of the deep resentment toward my H without forgiving him. Maybe it sounds ironic coming from a former WW, but I had to pray for God to help me let go of that resentment and forgive my H. All WW's have to forgive their H for whatever issue caused the resentment, or their heart will remain hardened. WW's are notorious for twisting things to make herself appear as the offended party, rather than the offender. If she holds something over the H's head and says she won't ever forgive him, I don't see much hope in them having an intimately happy MR. They may remain under the same roof and try to carry on as a "couple", for the most part, but a very important link is missing in the chain due to her holding on to grudges. This is the root of several SSM's, IMHO.

Disrespect, resentment and unforgiveness are issues that cause a woman to detach from her H, especially sexually. Of course, there can be other things affecting their sexual relationship, but these three areas can be there in her heart and the H knows nothing about it. Since you are a Christian, I will refer to the Bible, where we read the account of Adam & Eve when they sinned. God handed down consequences for both of them. The results for the woman and her decedents were issued things like pregnancy and painful child birth.........plus something else women have fought since that event. God said............"Your desire shall be unto your husband, and he shall rule over you". Funny how that works. Since God put the H in the head position, the W is going to challenge him (the H), and if she doesn't feel respect for him, it will kill her sexual desire for him. She can't feel desire for the H who has been placed in the head position, unless she feels respect for him. Considering God held Adam responsible b/c he gave in to his W instead of standing up to her and telling her he wouldn't eat the fruit. God turns around and says if she doesn't respect you, Adam, there'll be little to no sex in the M. There's a real lesson for those who will think about what's going on here. Even today, if the W doesn't feel respect for her H, it eventually kills her desire for him.

I am concerned for the many people out there who seem to have no moral compass, and they just live by whatever their emotions or social media dictate for the day. Everyone doesn't have to be religious, but if they were not taught to live by certain life principles, values, integrity, etc..........what do they use as their map going through life?

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I have thoroughly searched the web and there is nothing out there other than what you've posted. The closest thing I found was affair fog but there is nothing specific about the symptoms you describe.


I found whenever I used the keyword "wayward", it would usually refer to scripture. You may have a little luck searching for the "hard hearted wife".

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Thank you again for your contribution to this forum and have a happy new year.


Well, thank you for the inspiration! As you can see, I have trouble finding an end to my posts, especially when I'm inspired. smile
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/02/21 07:53 PM
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wish there were some way to access a WH viewpoint. My husband of 38 years started a relationship with a a woman - he says - after becoming "lost" and "over" my depression. I had no idea. I think that the male version of this is different.


I agree the male version is different.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 01/02/21 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
I
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wish there were some way to access a WH viewpoint. My husband of 38 years started a relationship with a a woman - he says - after becoming "lost" and "over" my depression. I had no idea. I think that the male version of this is different.


I agree the male version is different.



Paging neffer!!
Posted By: AndrewP Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 08/21/21 11:27 PM
Has anyone heard from Sandi lately? She was last online in March and I believe was having some health problems.

Just worried about her.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 08/23/21 12:44 PM
Originally Posted by AndrewP
Has anyone heard from Sandi lately? She was last online in March and I believe was having some health problems.

Just worried about her.
I don't really know her outside of the board, she seemed to be pretty private.

Yes it is worriesome.
Posted By: neffer Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 3 - 08/23/21 10:23 PM
Where are you Sandi?

We miss you here...
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