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Posted By: Joe2017 LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 05:56 AM
Last thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2775397&page=1

So in part 5 of my saga the last thing Nicole asked me:
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I wanted to ask you about the timing of your ex-wife's apology. Do you think her relationship ended with her boyfriend (or whatever you would call him) and that's why she finally woke up and realized what she did? Also when you and she discussed potentially being friends did she take any follow-up action after that? Have you heard from her since then? Has she tried to communicate with your son? It'd be interesting to hear more.

The answer is that yes, the relationship with her OM ended. It happened back in July, when she sent me the first temp check post D. I ignored it. She sent me several more in August. All ignored. Then again in September. Ignored. October was skipped. More temp checks in November. Ignored those too.

I didn’t respond until December, when she finally wrote an apology. Yes, I ignored her temp checks for five months until she was able to structure them in a way that had substance. I don’t have time for games.

I’m not sure what you mean by follow-up action after that. Yes, I have heard from her since then. We have spoken several times. Here’s where you all can analyze this stuff...

We had a very long conversation where we discussed how bad it was at the end. It’s obvious that she’s done a lot of reflection, because she started to describe herself and her mindset when she was a raging WW. She told me she was unexplainably selfish and egotistical. She felt like she was better than me, and that she deserved more. She felt like she was on to top of the world, and that everything revolved around her. She left me for OM because it was new and exciting, even though he was an unattractive a$shole. She just felt like she was better than everyone else for no reason and could just get whatever she wanted any time.

She unknowingly described herself using all of the the traits of a wayward spouse.

She said she lost sight of what was important because all of a sudden she didn’t know who she was anymore. She thought she was some sort of super magnificent specimen, but she says that she really ended up being a piece of $ht person who threw away everything good about her life. And she did it to herself. She told me that she wanted me to know that it wasn’t me, and that I always gave her what she wanted and needed, even when she didn’t know what those things were. That I treated her like a goddess but she just didn’t care for some reason.

She gave me all of the details of what transpired with OM, and a fling she had after him... I mean, very openly admitting that she was doing some things that were out of character, but not in a way that was trying to hurt me (like before). She explained that she wanted to be completely open and honest about everything. And she answered every question I asked with no hesitation. The OM basically ruined her financially and was abusive. He brought her down to having nothing left.

She wants a chance to talk to my son to apologize and tell him the same kind of things. I told her that I will have to ask him and see if that’s even something he wants to do, and she understands how hard it is for him to deal with what she did. I do have permission to contact her son now, and we are going to meet up soon to catch up on things.

And that’s where we are now.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 01:46 PM
Joe, is she asking you to give her another chance? I hear a lot of remorse and repenting on her part which is great, but I'm not clear on if she's trying to recon or just apologize. What are your feelings on possible recon?
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 04:19 PM
Interesting that you said that AS. Since my last post, she has asked for a second chance. She told me she found out that she really loves me and wants to try to earn our trust back. She said she misses her family and she wants to do it right this time. She said she will do anything.

I told her that the even possibility of a second chance hinges entirely upon my son's acceptance and her son's acceptance of it. She agreed that they are the most important part of this, and asked me to talk to him.

I'm perfectly fine without her now, but I do remember how great we were as a couple before she went wayward. Well. We'll see. I'm open to it, but it will take quite a bit of effort in her part. It will also take effort on my side to not throw her mistakes back in her face, even though I want to.

But like I said. It depends on our kids. They are the ones who lost the most in our D. I'll keep you updated.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 05:43 PM
Holy cow, that's funny that she said that. We'll see how those actions look, and if they're consistent and if the attitude and words match what she's saying now.

I'm glad to hear that you are good no matter what. The longer our sitches go on, the easier it is to let go. Hell, just having her come back and saying she wants a chance, at least for me, makes me want it less. That's human nature for you.
Posted By: Maika Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 07:08 PM
Hey! I remember you Joe. Thanks for popping by with an update. I am so glad to hear you're doing well and the boys have stabilized. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders about it all now and I don't see you letting W walk back in your life easily if you chose the path of recon. Keep us posted about what you decide to do and how it all goes.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 08:28 PM
Yes, it would be difficult for her. Part of that is a test of her resolve. Part of that is just how hard rebuilding is.

This morning she told me that she sensed that I may not be ready to accept her back into my life. She said if I need more time then she understands and can wait.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 08:39 PM
Joe, I think everything you've related is great, and the fact that she's thinking about reconciliation is wonderful. Steve85 keeps saying that if you want your spouse back you have to let go, and this just backs up that assertion. Even if there is no reconciliation, I suspect it was really nice just to hear the apology. I hope you can both do your parts and rebuild a wonderful marriage.

My only other thought regards your statement that reconciliation depends upon your son's acceptance. I understand why you feel that way, and I think taking his feelings into consideration is important. I'm just not sure you should be letting your son have the final say in your marriage.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/11/18 08:39 PM
Joe, congrats, not just on the possibility of recon but on well and truly moving on and finding yourself! I wish every new person would read your sitch beginning to end because so many of them talk about how their wives/ husbands tell them it's over and there is no hope, etc. etc. and they don't seem to believe us when we say that is only how they feel RIGHT NOW and it can and probably will change down the road. I mean your ex was saying all those same things and now look at her, fully repentant, humble and begging you to take her back. And look at the incredible strength you are showing, not just rolling the red carpet out for her and striking up the band as she moves back in, but treading carefully and establishing boundaries. Seriously, you are a model of how this should take place, well done!
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/12/18 04:24 PM
Thanks for the kind words everyone. I would not be where I am if it were not for the insane amount of 2x4's everyone applied to my head when I regressed during my journaling. Things were really rough but I got through it with the help of you all.

So things have been progressing. Yesterday my son agreed to talk to my ex in person. The ex explained that she knows how bad she messed up and how bad of a mother she was. She really left it all out on the table and apologized for tearing our family apart. It was very emotional for both of them. My son really dug in his heels and let her have it. He had a LOT to say. I was so proud of him for standing up for himself and giving her a piece of his mind. She accepted all responsibility, even though I know it was hard for her to hear the things he had to say. It was quite brutal.

After she left, my son was in a great mood. I think he really needed to get those things said.

My ex and I talked on the phone afterwards. We talked a lot about what it would mean for us to be together again. She was talking about the future and said she'd like to marry me again one day, if we ever get there. I told her to slow down because she is getting way ahead of herself. She told me that she is just excited at the opportunity to get a second chance and doesn't understand why I'm even considering it because I'm lowering my standards if I take her back.

Before we hung up, I said goodnight and my ex told me that she loves me. I told her thanks.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/12/18 04:34 PM
Hey Joe......I just caught up. Good to hear from you again and congratulations. I guess?????

So what's your plan???? Would you take her back?
Posted By: SoTorn Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/12/18 06:15 PM
Joe,

I am in the same exact sitch as you were a year ago. How did you handle Christmas? I have three kids with WW. WW is doing the same exact as yours was. Less the abusive stuff though. WW is cordial and nice when she is at home, but WW is dead set that its over and fully into an A. I refuse to move out and will not until D is final. WW has not filed. WW keeps saying she wants to file and actually retained an attorney but has not done anything.

WW keeps finding small things to get mad about to get negative attention. I get the "good morning" and "you look very nice" all the time now. I am NC as much as possible. I keep slipping up and responding to texts about negative stuff. That is something that i am working on.

I am GAL, lost weight, dieting, working out, being gone on the weekends, spending a ton of time with the kids. WW notices, but she doesnt really say anything. The difference is WW used to complain about a lot of stuff. I made mistakes in the past. I was an Ahole in the past, but I stopped years ago and made huge changes. WW had recognized them before. Now WW just has nothing but petty stuff to complain about.

Beyond my stupid responding to her texts I have done a great job of NC. But I am confused on Christmas. WW asked me to put money in our joint account which I did because I do want to help with the groceries and gifts for our kids. I am going to go get gifts for my kids this weekend. WW hasnt gotten much for them and she didnt ask me for help or ask for money on whatever she got the kids. Therefore I will get them stuff from myself.

When you gave the kids gifts did you just put them from dad? Or did you put from dad and mom?

I am in a world of heart break as well. EA since March, IHS since September 24th. Confirmed PA on October 31st.

I slipped quite a few times before I found this board and was in hot pursuit, kept getting drawn into arguments etc. I am doing much better now besides responding to texts which I will no longer do.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/12/18 08:50 PM
Joe, glad to hear your S got some closure, and it's great that your ex accepted it without reservation. Based on the successful recon stories I know of, it really does sound like she is being genuine and honest with you. She still has work to do but if you do decide to give her a chance I feel like you are going to see a much different person than the one you saw for the past year.



Originally Posted by Joe2017
My ex and I talked on the phone afterwards. We talked a lot about what it would mean for us to be together again. She was talking about the future and said she'd like to marry me again one day, if we ever get there. I told her to slow down because she is getting way ahead of herself. She told me that she is just excited at the opportunity to get a second chance and doesn't understand why I'm even considering it because I'm lowering my standards if I take her back.

Before we hung up, I said goodnight and my ex told me that she loves me. I told her thanks.


Perfectly handled. Make her work for it.




Originally Posted by SoTorn
When you gave the kids gifts did you just put them from dad? Or did you put from dad and mom?


I'm not Joe but in my case my kids were all 10 or older after BD and knew (spoiler alert) that there was no Santa. I have 3 kids so rather than wrestle with whose names to put on the tags (mine, ex, and the other two kids? Just mine and the other 2 kids?) I just put from "Santa" on all of them. Lots easier that way! If your kids still believe in Santa that might not work because they'll think you didn't get them anything, LOL! Incidentally I still do that to this day.
Posted By: NicoleR Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 12:22 AM
Hi Joe,

Your update is spectacular! I love hearing about your son being able to speak his mind. I can't believe your ex-wife is already talking about getting re-married. What a roller coaster your year has been. I hope you'll keep us posted!
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 02:43 PM
Joe, I think it's wonderful that your son was finally heard, and your W got to see first hand the devastation she caused in his life, too. It sounds like really great news, but please take it slowly and make sure she's sincere, and in it for the long haul.

So Torn, you need to do whatever works for you, but the presents I bought, I signed "Me". W and I didn't really buy anything together so it didn't really come up.

Just as an aside, I didn't get anything for W, except a few lumps of coal I put in her stocking. Yes, I did.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 04:47 PM
Thanks everyone. I have been trying to take it slow. After spending all this time talking to her, I really do think that she is sincere. Every day she tells me that if I need more time, or if this doesn't work for me right now, that she will wait until I'm ready. She tells me that she loves me often and doesn't expect me to say it back to her. I am being cautious. I told her that she is going to have to do a lot of work to get our relationship back on track. She knows I have justified trust issues, and she is trying to do what she can to help me trust her again. She gave me her social media passwords. I think she is putting forth a lot of effort. Her perspective on almost everything has shifted. It's hard to explain, but she is very aware of what she did wrong in our marriage and as a parent and she seems to genuinely want to make up for it.

But who knows if the fog is really lifted? This will take some more time, but I am tentatively working with her to rebuild. It's touch and go right now.

SoTorn:
I bought my kids presents and they were from me. My ex did the same. But that was our situation. Yours may be different. Be 100% prepared for any gift exchanges to be made all about the wayward and their needs. They may buy them crappy gifts because "poor them, they don't have money anymore" or the complete opposite where they go overboard to "beat" you at gift giving.
Posted By: Maika Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 04:51 PM
Is she doing any therapy right now? From what you wrote, her actions sound about right, but she probably needs some help in processing and figuring all of this out. And if after some therapy sessions over a few months, she still wants to recon, and you're amenable to it, I would suggest that you find a good MC to explore the possibility of recon and see if it's actually going to be feasible. If reading the recon threads has taught me anything, this is a long long road and somehow way harder than dealing with BD and the aftermath.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 06:34 PM
Yes counseling is going to be a big part of this. There is a cost aspect right now due to the holidays and the fact that OM left her in a bad financial situation. We have a lot to work on, but I can see the possibility of recon if she continues to be sincere and repentant.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 07:53 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
Thanks everyone. I have been trying to take it slow. After spending all this time talking to her, I really do think that she is sincere.


What she is saying does fit with similar recons I've read about where the WAS did a 180 and essentially became the LBS. TXHubby's W comes to mind. There was another woman that used to post here years ago, she dumped her H and he begged and pleaded and eventually gave up and moved on and found someone else, and THAT was when she had her awakening. She begged and pleaded with him to take her back but he had a new life and was no longer interested, so she ended up here seeking advice. I read her posts with great interest back then because she was truly a full-blown WAS that did a 180 to become a LBS and she had some great insight into how that transition happened. Sandi's road back was a long and slow one, but sometimes it's like a switch is flipped. That was the way it was with that woman (wish I could remember her name). She was talking to her grandmother who was on her deathbed and her grandmother told her she was being stupid and needed to go get her H back, and suddenly she saw the light. One more example, the friend I mention sometimes whose W left him and moved in with OM and went silent for 2 years, then suddenly sought him out and started chatting, then dating, then went all-in again. The point I'm making is while her turnaround may seem unbelievable and maybe questionable, there are in fact plenty of examples of it happening.

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Every day she tells me that if I need more time, or if this doesn't work for me right now, that she will wait until I'm ready. She tells me that she loves me often and doesn't expect me to say it back to her. I am being cautious. I told her that she is going to have to do a lot of work to get our relationship back on track.


I know you need the trust back and I completely support your being cautious. But, this may not take as much work as you think. The friend I mentioned above, when his W came back after 2 years they fell right back into a serious R with no counseling or anything really. It's been several years now and they are still doing fantastic. Sometimes the whole WAS thing is a phase they go through and once they come out of it they scarcely believe they behaved the way they did. Things may very well return quickly to normal if that's what you decide you want. But of course you should keep your changes and never let the R (or M) go on autopilot again.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 10:39 PM
AS:
That was an interesting post. My ex initially called me only to apologize. She wanted me to know that SHE knew the D was her fault and not mine. Apparently, hearing my voice during the phone call made her want to reconcile? That's what she told me. Ever since that call she has been doing everything she can to get me to trust her again. I am almost suspicious!!! But the truth is, I don't have anything for her except for me. I haven't offered anything more than the chance that my son and I will become part of her life again. I sure as heck have not rolled out any red carpet or showered her with attention. If anything, I'm making it harder than it could be.

Maika:
I have been thinking about the counseling thing. I almost feel like it would help me deal with resentment issues just as much as it would help her dealing with her guilt.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/13/18 10:45 PM
I wish my WW would see some sort of light. I know that my WW feels shameful and guilty about what she did/is doing. WW keeps talking to OM. WW saw the consequences in her children being extremely upset with her. WW used to drink a lot and stopped drinking. I know that is something that helped her ease into her situation. WW would go out constantly at work and OM was always with her and they would drink like crazy. WW stopped drinking for some reason which I don't know but I am glad she has stopped.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/14/18 01:52 PM
Joe, it sounds like great news, but you need to take time to make sure her 180s are real and lasting.

SoTorn, most of us, I think, would love to hear our spouses have seen some sort of light, but the vast majority of us are doomed to disappointment. I think a big part of DBing is to get to the point where we no longer care.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/14/18 05:02 PM
Jim, you're absolutely right on both points. I am being careful but also optimistic.

Once you progress to the point that you become indifferent to your WW you will feel like a new man. I promise.
Posted By: NicoleR Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/17/18 04:26 AM
Hi Joe,

I hope now that all these developments are happening you'll let us know how it turns out!
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 08:18 AM
I wrote a long reply and it got erased. Lol, so I’m going to redo this with a much shorter version.

We are beginning to reconcile. She seems to be sincere, and she has agreed to my terms:

1) This is her second chance, not mine. She is rebuilding MY trust, not the other way around.
2) I need to know everything about all relationships post D. I also required evidence that the relationships are over. She has provided this information.
3) She needs to take an STD test. She agreed without argument.
4) I need passwords to her devices. She has provided this.
5) She needs to apologize to my son. She has done this already and they are communicating.
6) She needs to apologize to my family. This is a work in progress, just by the nature of what it is.

We have been on a few dates so far, and they have all gone well. We have had a couple small arguments that all worked out peacefully. I expected some arguments, and we were able to communicate and solve our problems instead of argue even more. Overall, the R seems to be going in the right direction. There is a lot of familiarity, but also something new about each other that is different than the first time. We are both different people than we were a year ago. She did waywarding, I did GAL and 180’s. I think both processes changed both of us in some ways neither of us expected from each other. It’s very interesting.

I asked her what she wants to accomplish with this relationship. She said her goal is to become my wife again, if I will let her. I told her that she’s getting ahead of herself, since still have a lot of work to do. She says she is willing to do it.

HOWEVER: Something I never planned for happened to me. I realized I have a lot of insecurities about myself as it relates to my ex. And mentally, I took all of those things and put them into a box and hid them in my attic. Because I never thought R was an option, I never dealt with these emotions in the past and never planned for them to happen. So it is a little bit scary, and I have some things to think about before I get more serious. I don’t really need her in my life, so what am I even doing?

Life is weird.
Posted By: Yail Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 12:41 PM
Joe, your last paragraph is so insightful and I think it's very helpful that you've shared it here. As I work through my own S/D I feel myself take emotions and set them aside so I can get by. I'm sure these emotions will end up in my own attic. It's something we can all relate to but don't talk about a lot.

I wish you a healthy and happy 2019.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 02:30 PM
Man, having been through the wringer, and ups and downs of D, I'm sure there are tons of things rattling around all our attics. Good for you for recognizing that.

I'm glad you are facing your issues, both within yourself and with your ex. I think your updates are terrific and make me really happy for you.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 04:49 PM
Yail:
Yep, I definitely need to work on these emotions. The insecurities I had about myself as they related to how I used to compare myself to OM I worked through with GAL. I thought maybe I was less attractive than OM, so I hit the gym. I started running again. I dropped a lot of weight. I started to dress better. As a result I became more confident about myself, which in turn made me more attractive to women. And being with other women made me even more confident. It was an effective combo.

But as it relates to my ex-wife? I took a lot of those feelings and just hid them. I never thought I'd have to talk to her again about our dog, so that whole range of dog emotions is back. I never thought she'd ever ask me to help her with my opinions regarding S15 again, but here I am dealing with those feelings. I never EVER thought she'd ever ask me about getting married and now the topic has come up like 4 times. And it's a little bit unnerving that I don't have this part of the script planned out.

Jim:
Thanks for your kind words. I appreciate them a lot. I have no idea where this R is going to go from here. Either one of us could decide it's not worth it and bail at any time. But I think that given the circumstances, at this moment in time we'd both regret not trying to reconcile, so we really just have to give it a shot.

I am dealing with a lot of personal jealousy issues. I am jealous that she was with two guys after D. But to be honest, I was with girls post D, so I can't hold that against her at all. But I do. It's probably because I was the LBS. I know I have to get over it, and I'm working on it. One day at a time, I guess.
Posted By: Yail Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
And it's a little bit unnerving that I don't have this part of the script planned out.


Wow, what an insightful sentence. Because when someone is utilizing the forum and DBing there IS a bit of script to follow. I guess when we're at our most vulnerable we really need the support of other people suggesting what we should do and how to handle the range of emotions and actions. But now you're back on your own making your own decisions that we really can't advise you on, because this part is very personal to only you.

Whatever your future holds between you and your XW I thank you for sharing your process that you're going through now. You really are on the "other side" of it in the sense that you are not hopping back into the R as it used to be once-upon-a-time. You'd be defining a new R and deciding if that works for you. I'm sure it's very difficult in a lot of ways but hearing you really carefully consider what is important to you and sort through your feelings for your XW (now GF? I dunno!) in real-time is amazing.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
Yail:
I took a lot of those feelings and just hid them. I never thought I'd have to talk to her again about our dog, so that whole range of dog emotions is back. I never thought she'd ever ask me to help her with my opinions regarding S15 again, but here I am dealing with those feelings. I never EVER thought she'd ever ask me about getting married and now the topic has come up like 4 times. And it's a little bit unnerving that I don't have this part of the script planned out.


Joe, first of all you're doing all the right things in setting boundaries and not rushing things, well done! Regarding the above, just tell her how you feel. If she asks about getting married again just tell her that is a conversation for well down the road, that even her mentioning it to you at this time is causing you anxiety because you're not ready for that yet. This happens a lot at the beginning of recon, the WAS and LBS switch places. The WAS is the one that's pursuing and pressuring and the LBS is the one that's trying to pull back and create space. The thing is, you know how to be a LBS, she doesn't. So train her. Tell her you need to take it slow, and she needs to respect you and give you time and space to process this all.

Quote
I am dealing with a lot of personal jealousy issues. I am jealous that she was with two guys after D. But to be honest, I was with girls post D, so I can't hold that against her at all. But I do. It's probably because I was the LBS. I know I have to get over it, and I'm working on it. One day at a time, I guess.


I'm guessing neither of you were virgins when you got married (is anyone these days?) But that didn't stop you from falling in love and getting married, and I would venture to say that you thought little if any about who she was with before that. So try to look at it that way, you're not resuming your old R but starting a new one. It's a clean slate, but even better, you're going into it knowing what both of you did wrong and how to make corrections for an even better R. Reconciling is about the future, not the past.
Posted By: Bo562 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/18/18 06:20 PM
Originally Posted by AnotherStander


I'm guessing neither of you were virgins when you got married (is anyone these days?)


Tbh, W and I were. It still happens, though not as often.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 12:00 AM
Joe

Thank you for the shout out on my thread.

Just a word in your ear if I might? It's about you, this experience has grown and developed YOU. So many shifts for YOU.

This ex may not be a good enough match for YOU. Words and apologies aren't shift. Shift requires a change in values and beliefs. More than words.

I know the heart wants what the heart wants, ultimately you now aren't the you of then.

Just saying

V
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 12:14 AM
Originally Posted by Vanilla
Joe

Thank you for the shout out on my thread.

Just a word in your ear if I might? It's about you, this experience has grown and developed YOU. So many shifts for YOU.

This ex may not be a good enough match for YOU. Words and apologies aren't shift. Shift requires a change in values and beliefs. More than words.

I know the heart wants what the heart wants, ultimately you now aren't the you of then.

Just saying

V


Hi V,

I’m happy that you are still checking in. I think about how when I first started posting you foretold the long journey I was going to take. In my time here, I regularly refer to what you said regarding my sitch and how I have been able to address and work on resolving the issues that contributed to this. The amount of support I have is a true blessing and honestly necessary as I continue this.

I just wanted to say “Thank you”. Thank you for being one of the first to welcome me. And thank you for playing a significant role in changing my life.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 06:29 AM
Originally Posted by Vanilla
Joe

Thank you for the shout out on my thread.

Just a word in your ear if I might? It's about you, this experience has grown and developed YOU. So many shifts for YOU.

This ex may not be a good enough match for YOU. Words and apologies aren't shift. Shift requires a change in values and beliefs. More than words.

I know the heart wants what the heart wants, ultimately you now aren't the you of then.

Just saying

V


I know V. I am being very cautious.

I am exploring this because I see a glimpse of something in her now that did not exist before BD and D. I think it could possibly be very good.

I am convinced of her remorse. Our timelines of the events surrounding the A and D are finally matched up now that she has stopped rewriting history me admitted to lying. We still have work to do, but so far she has given me everything I've asked for.

I'm being careful and taking it slow.
Posted By: neffer Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 11:51 AM
You need to get into a new R2 with XW. The advantage there is that you´ll be able to use DB tools to improve that R.

Once a DBer always a DBer.

Good for you Joe. My best wishes for all of you.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 04:49 PM
Thanks neffer. Like Vanilla stated, I'm not Joe2017 anymore. I'm Joe2019 now, and what I want in a woman is much different.

I'm going to do some journaling now since I have so much on my mind:

I know I have insecurities regarding my XW. I'm dealing with them as best I can, the two of us have talked about this. I told her that I am coming from a place of betrayal, and she has a lot of work to do to rebuild trust. She understands and she said she will never stop giving me everything I ask for. It's too early to tell if she will continue this, but in all our years of M I can't remember her committed to anything with this much conviction.

DB is a wonderful gift. I am now able to have R talks with XW and pour out my feelings without being vulnerable or weak. I can actually express my emotions from a place of strength. It's an amazing thing.

She tells me every day that she loves me and that she F'd up her life and our family. She is continually repentant and sometimes I am so blunt in response that she ends up crying. She still picks herself up, tells me that she deserved what I said, and asks me what I need from her. She tells me she was a horrible person, she still is a horrible person, and she is trying to be better because it's what I deserve. I tell her good because I'm a very demanding man now.

There is a role reversal here. I have more WAS in me now than LBS. I don't chase after anything. Sometimes I don't even text or call her. I am a bit of a prick, but not abusive or mean. I just know I can take this or leave this. Certainly, leaving this would be much easier. I think she is much more humble. She shows me great respect now, even more than when we first got married. She constantly praises me and tries to gain my approval. Is she in pursuit? Huh, interesting.

However, in all of our intense interactions over the past couple weeks I really do see something different. Something I haven't seen before even in our first relationship. I'm having a hard time putting my finger on it, but the closest word I can use to describe it is subservient.
Posted By: ovrrnbw Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 05:08 PM
Well, subservient won't last. Eventually you two need to forgive each other. You don't want anyone feeling like a whipped dog.

I hope you keep going slow and really see things for what they are.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by ovrrnbw
Well, subservient won't last. Eventually you two need to forgive each other. You don't want anyone feeling like a whipped dog.

I hope you keep going slow and really see things for what they are.

I don't want her feeling like a whipped dog. But she should, so I am going to let her. I'm certainly not going to abuse her or the situation. I feel like this is part of her working through her issues. One of my goals is to lessen the hurt in our relationship, so I am not mentioning the A unless there is an actual practical reason to do so. We have talked about that enough, although I will have to talk about it here and there.

No sense in beating a dead horse.

As far as subservience goes, it's new, and it's intriguing me. Submitting to me was something that was severely lacking in our first R. I had a bit of a NGS going on, and she had control issues. In hindsight, we both should have known that it was not going to work out with that dynamic. I'm not a "red pill" kinda guy but I see some value in it.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 05:50 PM
Can you forgive her? You expressed some doubt about that in earlier posts. That's a very important question you have to answer.

I am kind of amazed at the parallels between Steve85 and you. You both did the work, and both Ws changed their minds and decided to work on the marriage, and now, you're both kind of like "Eh. I can take it or leave it." I hope it's as great a place to be as I imagine.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 06:46 PM
Originally Posted by Jim1234
Can you forgive her? You expressed some doubt about that in earlier posts. That's a very important question you have to answer.

Oh, I have absolutely forgiven her.

I just don't TRUST her. In fact, one of the rules I gave her is that she must call me Joe. There will be no "I love you sweetie" crap. How many dudes has she called sweetie? No, damn it. I'm Joe2017 and you will address me as me.

I feel like a big problem is that I realized I have to forgive myself. I feel sad that I helped let our MR turn into crap. I blame myself for losing the alpha role. I have guilt about what I inadvertently taught my son about what being a man is. Like I said earlier, I never did really deal with these things. Now, I have to. But this will be OK. I am doing fine with it. Every day gets better. This is not even close to as difficult as surviving the D.

Is it a great place to be? In many ways, it is, but only in the context of me being the best version of myself. Having confidence is an amazing thing but I have to be careful to avoid the same pitfalls as the WS and WAS. I remember everyone telling me that WW will realize that the "grass is not greener" on the other side. The problem with this is that I know that until she really really proves herself to me, then the grass really COULD be greener on the other side (for me).

So, I just have to be patient so I can find out for certain that this new woman is the one who deserves me. Does that make sense?
Posted By: burned Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 06:52 PM
You mean the grass is greener on the other side for YOU? Or that she is still thinking you're not the greenest of the grasses?
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/21/18 06:56 PM
Originally Posted by burned
You mean the grass is greener on the other side for YOU? Or that she is still thinking you're not the greenest of the grasses?

Oh, I meant the grass could be greener on the other side for ME. Edited the post for clarification.

Until I am 100% sure she is what she is presenting herself as, I have every right to be wary.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/22/18 12:43 AM
A word on forgiveness if I may.

It isn't our job to forgive anything at all for another. It takes away another's higher power and it's between them and their higher power. Just as our forgiveness for ourselves is ours alone for us to manage. We aren't a higher power and can't be for another. Giving up the need to forgive releases us to love and also stops the blockages to connection.

What we think of them and what they think of us is personal to each and none of the others business.

So, give up the need to forgive, it truly won't release you. It's detachment that will do so and what will release you from revenge, bitterness and anger? Letting go. That allows you to move on and turn the other cheek.

The popular wisdom is that forgiveness releases and the popular wisdom is just that: a belief which can be unfounded. Forgiveness of self causes release after atonement, forgiveness of others binds us to their actions and pains inflicted on us. It is up to us to manage our reactions to the actions and do that which assists us in our growth. That is a big enough challenge on it's own.

However remembering is necessary for pause and self love. It is the new boundaries that we set that helps us to release our feelings, insecurity and makes us strong. The need to forgive is weak.

Forgiveness puts us one up on the other, it inhibits the Karma bus from acting. It creates a place where forgiveness is necessary and trust a requirement. Can they earn your trust back? What a difficult position you put yourself in determining if trust can be 'won' back. Let it go.

Have I forgiven the G? Absolutely not my job to do so, have I let go of my need to forgive? Absolutely. And it is the most releasing and healing thing of all, to be neutral and calm. Free of any negative poison, gone. Would I give the G any thought these days? Only in these pages where my story is written. I don't even block him on FB or any other way because I truly don't care if he or his little BIT haunt my SM (which they do) , It's truly freeing not to even be bothered. I recommend releasing yourself and being free of that need of forgiving. Instead observe if the atoning actions match the words. Not your job to punish, let WW higher power do that.

What is the opposite of love? It is indifference, it is letting go, it is moving on and not looking back. It is starting anew, afresh with a clean slate. That alone makes the returning wayward look to atone their actions. So if asked have you forgiven me? Say, that's not my job to do. That gives the wayward behaviour no get out at all, none. That holds the wayward to account in full. It is strong. Forgive yourself for everything connected, waywardness is the waywards choice in full, it holds them accountable for it in full with their own higher power.

For you that new start may mean WW, I doubt you will ever forget those dark days, they changed you. If your R2 is to have a chance then let WW forgive herself, do the work and atone. You don't need the Karma bus to run her over and to be in the driving seat. Be Meh about it all. If WW steps over your boundary then you enforce it and walk away and that is clear because you are strong. That can never be the same. You can observe but not absorb.

Detachment, fine if it works and ok if it doesn't.

And the choice is yours not the boys as to whether an R2 is in the offing. It is to be inappropriate to defer to them. It ìs YOUR choice. Just saying my 2c.

V
Posted By: Maika Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/22/18 03:02 AM
V - firstly, it's great to see you back. Missed your input on so many things here.

I love your take on forgiveness. I personally find it very liberating to approach it that way and letting go of the need to forgive someone else for their actions, and rather focus on forgiving yourself.

You touched upon something that I'd love to explore and get your thoughts on it as well. Almost all the experiences here have a common thread of 'betrayal'. How do you start building trust with the other person in these cases? I know there is no such thing as a 100% guarantee that they won't do something like this again, but how can you get to a place of trust with the other person and create a new foundation and life and not having to look over your shoulder every time?

For me this is completely hypothetical and I won't get to this phase in my own sitch, but I'd like to get a better understanding of this just for my own personal growth and what I would need to do to create space to build trust.

Others chime in as well. I haven't seen much of an in-depth discussion on rebuilding trust and what that looks like. Thanks.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/22/18 05:09 AM
Thank you Maika,

I am trekking to your thread if further discussion is needed so as not to hijack, but the essence is as follows, forgiveness is a personal action, belief and choice, like love. We choose these from our personal stance.

Trust is a behaviour rather than a choice. When we trust we allow others into our space and permit them to behave within closer boundaries. They are in our space.

Trust isn't absolute, I can trust someone with my cash but not with my heart. I may allow them to drive my child to school but not to cook my dinner. And that's ok. So I can trust WW to buy the groceries but not to see OM. It's because their behaviour is untrustworthy by experience or I anticipate it to be so.

Trust can vary depending on my knowledge, I find out today that teacher x has great exam results for students and I trust them for extra tuition for French, that's new information. I find out that broker A has gone insolvent so I don't trust them with my cash. New information and new levels of trust.

It's the other's behaviour and my response to it that determines trust. And it changes, it's an analogue response not a digital one, like a knob to turn on a stereo for sound. It can go up and down.

Next Trust and Love aren't linked. You can love someone and not trust them in a specific area. Similarly you can trust someone and not love them. I trust my butchers meat but I don't love him. You don't need love to trust and visa versa. So take the pressure off yourself, control is making someone 'earn' your trust, they can't do that and it's damaging. Instead examine their behaviour on the given issue. Drop the need for trust in order to love and visa versa. That holds even if someone says 'You don't trust me do you ?' . The answer is that's none of your business. What I think of you is mine. Simply answer 'are you trustworthy? Is your word good?' 'Are you doing what you say?'

Does it matter? I believe in transparency in M, although we are allowed our privacy on some things. And checking emails, phones etc is no way to live. Allowing checking is one thing but living needing to check is another. Do we need to trust? I say no, but we have to be good on our boundaries and verify. Then we apply consequences. Those consequences are reasonable and prestated. If you x then y is a boundary. That's reducing trust levels. If you chat to my WW then I will inform your W is a boundary. It's said in advance.

So how do you 'learn to trust after betrayal? You don't, not in any way. It's not a learned thing but an experience thing. Between two people, so it's how another behaves that makes them trustworthy and it can be tested. It can be verified, and I don't believe testing and verifying is snooping. It's common sense when experience tells you that your ex is gambling and they say they aren't to test that assertion. Over time verification becomes less and less needed. The old adage fool me once shame on you, fool me twice then I am a fool, fool me thrice shame on me is a good one.

And it's ok not to trust after betrayal, absolutely ok. No one should feel guilty for verifying, it's when verifying becomes a way of punishing and excessive it's an issue. Over verifying is damaging and it can be done subtly and unobtrusively.

And snooping is different from INTEL, I believe in knowing from operating from knowledge. Once you know you can never unknown. INTEL such as a PI is so valuable. Best 1800 euros I spent in the D on a PI, saved me a lot of settlement and allowed me to serve the G. INTEL assists in trust.

Those are my thoughts

V
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/23/18 02:50 PM
Hi V!

I have to admit, I’ve never really understood trust on the level that you do. In one post you were able to teach me more about trust that I have known for all these decades on the planet. You are absolutely correct. I cannot go through life chasing after every little bit of information about my XW like the news media.

I do have my rules though. Right now they are really important to me so that I can establish some way to know how serious things are on her end. It’s easy to say things, but harder to be consistent with them. I know eventually the rules have to change and disappear, but that’s OK. For now they are about proving to me that she can maintain the 180’s she did to come back to me. I think these kinds of rules are important when we are basically at a below-zero level of trust. I am not naive going into this. My eyes are wide open for red flags. My ears are open. I’m observing everything. I want to make the right decision.

V, you’re right about our boys not having a say in our R2, but we do have to keep their feelings in mind every step of the way. The challenge is that they are both highly uneasy about this, as they should be. We are taking things slow. It’s the only way this will work long term, if that’s what we want to do.

Journaling:
We have been dating seriously now for a couple weeks. By seriously, I mean our friends and family know about it. We are doing the “normal” dating thing. Going on dates, chatting, etc. I think she was disappointed that there are so many things that I can’t trust her with, but she understands.

She is making a very serious effort to maintain my attention, which is something that was lacking during the majority of our MR. But like I said, it’s only been a couple weeks or whatever. Only time will tell if she continues to think I am the person she wants to be with for the rest of her life, as she does now. We’re in an infatuation period, I think... so of course she is going to tell me that I’m the perfect man for her. I can’t get too wrapped up into the flattery she is showering me with.

Christmas is coming up. I got her some gifts, but nothing extravagant or expensive. Kind of like the gifts you’d expect from a boyfriend of a couple weeks’ time. Lol. I plan on doing a little gift exchange between the boys as part of Christmas this year, but nothing that makes them feel pressure to be a family again.

Not sure what I’m doing for NYE though. I already have several invitations to NYE parties, so we’ll see how that plays out. I’m tempted to go to the parties as pre-existing plans and then watching XW’s reaction. Last NYE was when WW decided to show me that she was with OM with outward displays of their A. We both need to tread lightly, I think.

I have to admit, I am a little bit uneasy about R2 some days. It is mostly fear of the unknown and fear of being betrayed again. But hey! It’s only been a couple weeks.

Things I need to improve on are being less vindictive. When the topic of the A comes up, I often talk overly honestly and it leaves her crying. So it’s a touchy topic because I will say things like “cheaters don’t deserve any of my attention at all” without validating that I can see her efforts to atone for her sin. I am going to have to ease up soon, because like V said, my job is not to drive the karma bus. She’s already been hit with the karma bus, that much is apparent. When she complains about some ongoing logistic/financial issues with OM I just want to tell her to shut up about him, because that’s her problem and not mine. I don’t, of course. I just validate and then act uninterested or ask her what she is going to do about it. For the most part, I resist the urge to “save” her from herself. She has to do that on her own.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/24/18 01:50 AM
Joe, two things strike me from your post. The first is your comment that "cheaters don't deserve any of my attention at all." If you can't get over this, and stop saying it, and things like it, you might as well forget the possibility of reconciliation. The other is her talking about logistic/financial issues with OM. Can you gently suggest to her that this is not an appropriate to discuss with you, and please don't bring it up again?
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/24/18 02:13 AM
Hey Jim,

Yeah I say crap like that and it's just me being spiteful. It's stupid. I am having issues with my resentment. I also find myself pushing the envelope to see if she will just give up. It's petty, but sometimes it gets the best of me. I haven't done it for a couple days.

Doesn't bode well, but at least I know I'm doing it and I stop myself now.

It's usually triggered by her talking about OM in one way or another. I know removing the trigger doesn't solve the resentments I have bottled up, but I'll ask her not to talk about him while I sort this out.

Thanks Jim.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/24/18 01:38 PM
Knowing it is going on is half the battle! But you really have to let go of the resentment for this to have any chance. Good luck and Merry Christmas!
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 03:17 PM
Thanks Jim, I hope you had a great Christmas! Ours was good.

Journaling:
I am questioning whether or not I can do R2. I have no reasons to trust XW and I do not know if I will ever fully trust her again enough to make this R work. She has done everything I’ve asked, but it is still early on. I have no guarantees that she is not going to just go back to being WW again at some point. I worry that it’s a ticking time bomb.

Reasons to believe XW:
She doesn’t gain anything from dating me.
Dating me is hard due to the dynamics involved.
She takes full responsibility for her A and shows remorse.
She has agreed to all of my “second chance rules”.
She told me that she wants a second chance with me because she didn’t really understand what she had in our MR.
She claims I’m everything a man should be.
She is taking measures to reconcile with my son.
She wants to take things even slower than I do to make sure our kids are OK with us dating.
She seems genuine, I think.
She does not want to hurt her son again.
She appears to really love me.

Reasons to quit R2:
I don’t trust her enough.
I am scared of getting hurt by her.
I am scared of my kid getting hurt by her.
I am scared of her kid getting hurt by her.
In the past she cheated on me to get out of our MR.
She tried using cheating to get out of the relationship she had with OM. it didn’t work, because OM is also a cheater, lol.
I have a whole lot of resentment buried inside.
I really don’t NEED to have her in my life.
Does my XW even really understand what love means?

I know I love her. I just don’t know if that’s enough. It wasn’t enough last time. How can I be sure that she won’t revert to waywarding? I can’t be sure. Well, 2019 has got to be better than 2018 was right?

I guess I just need to take it one day at a time.
Posted By: LH19 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
She wants to take things even slower than I do to make sure our kids are OK with us dating.

You might need to slow your roll Joe. Remember she has to earn another chance with you.
Originally Posted by Joe2017
In the past she cheated on me to get out of our MR.
She tried using cheating to get out of the relationship she had with OM. it didn’t work, because OM is also a cheater, lol.

Big red flag. When things are good she'll be fine. What happens when inevitably things get rocky again down the road?


Is she in IC? If it was me that would be a must prior to recon.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 05:10 PM
Originally Posted by LH19
Originally Posted by Joe2017
She wants to take things even slower than I do to make sure our kids are OK with us dating.

You might need to slow your roll Joe. Remember she has to earn another chance with you.
Originally Posted by Joe2017
In the past she cheated on me to get out of our MR.
She tried using cheating to get out of the relationship she had with OM. it didn’t work, because OM is also a cheater, lol.

Big red flag. When things are good she'll be fine. What happens when inevitably things get rocky again down the road?


Is she in IC? If it was me that would be a must prior to recon.


Yeah, what I meant about her taking it slower than me sounds worse than it is. I'm going at a turtle pace and she is more like a snail. If that makes sense. I'm not rushing this by any means.

Yeah I know it's a huge red flag. She is going to be getting C. I also have limited belief that C does anything for cheaters. When she had her A with OM during our MR, it was right at the very end and she didn’t really do it to force me out. HOWEVER, during her time with OM, she found out he was cheating so she went out and cheated to get back at him. And he didn’t give damn about it. Those are the details around the cheating. If that makes any difference? I dunno that it does.
Posted By: Yail Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 06:51 PM
I can't recall, was your wife in a suspected MLC? Does this impact your thoughts on her actions?

Not to excuse them, but to see her whole cheating as part of something she was going through. A symptom of her greater issues. Do you think it was wildly out of character for her up until that point in time?

If you do think MLC, do any of her other symptoms seem to still be around, or have they changed too? How she dresses, anger, depression....
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 11:13 PM


"Do not let fear control me"
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 11:37 PM
Originally Posted by Ready2Change


"Do not let fear control me"



^^^^^^ This.

Most of your "reasons against" are rooted in the above statement.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/26/18 11:48 PM
Originally Posted by Yail
I can't recall, was your wife in a suspected MLC? Does this impact your thoughts on her actions?

Not to excuse them, but to see her whole cheating as part of something she was going through. A symptom of her greater issues. Do you think it was wildly out of character for her up until that point in time?

If you do think MLC, do any of her other symptoms seem to still be around, or have they changed too? How she dresses, anger, depression....


I totally get where you’re coming from. No, all of her symptoms came on like a mental illness. Much like a MLC but it was not an MLC. It was waywarding and being manipulated by OM. It was always very clear to me, and also became clear to her a few months ago. When the fog was lifted and she realized what happened to her, she couldn’t believe it. And what’s more, is that she could not believe that she DID IT TO HERSELF. She fully realizes that her current problems are all her own doing. Yes she was manipulated, but she was also complicit.

So she is MOSTLY back to being what I remember as my wife. She dresses normal, talks normal, jokes normal, deals with her problems actually better than she used to. We are much more open and she actually considers what I tell her much more than she did even when we were in the best years of our MR. She did get extremely dressed up for a date we went on, but it was a really nice gesture because of our history and how I used to get upset that I felt like she did not try to look her best on our dates... Yet as soon as she started being WW, she would dress like she was hitting the club every night. Now I can see her trying to be “fancy” for me. It’s something that we lacked in our MR and it’s nice.

I actually believe she is trying. I’m having moments of weakness that I will only admit here to my friends on the site. I just have to let go of my resentment. I never had a reason to before, and now that I do I’m working hard to overcome this problem. But it still exists.

Originally Posted by Ready2Change


"Do not let fear control me"

I’m trying! I think that I am not too far from a breakthrough. I typically move through this kinda stuff at a decent pace, but I will rollercoaster quite a bit before I settle in and put all of the pieces of the puzzle together. Thanks for the support!

We will get into see a C as soon as we can.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/27/18 12:08 AM

Originally Posted by Joe2017
I actually believe she is trying.
I am no expert in this part of the process, but I believe boundaries, trust but verify, no backsliding and continuation of personal growth is still important right now.

Quote
] I’m having moments of weakness that I will only admit here to my friends on the site.
I understand. We all do.

Quote
I just have to let go of my resentment. I never had a reason to before, and now that I do I’m working hard to overcome this problem. But it still exists.
Personal growth is tough work, but worth it.

Keep leading though this.
Posted By: TJT Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/27/18 01:49 AM
Hey Joe. Just caught up on this thread, I'll need to go back to your previous ones to get more details leading up to this but for right now, I'm happy you have this opportunity and I think you're handling it incredibly well. I wish the absolute best for you and XW and I'm happy to hear that the difficulty of recon is less so than the difficulty of D!

I also just have to say that this made me LOL:

Originally Posted by Joe2017
How many dudes has she called sweetie? No, damn it. I'm Joe2017 and you will address me as me.

I had the hardest time when my H started calling me by my name instead of "babe". I actually told him NOT to call me by my name because it was so ridiculous. So I like that you've said this and if I ever get the same opportunity I may steal it from your playbook. Within reason, of course. You are great at setting the boundaries, just make sure they don't become excessive as "punishment" which will further inhibit R2.
Posted By: Bo562 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/27/18 05:47 AM
Originally Posted by TJT


I had the hardest time when my H started calling me by my name instead of "babe". I actually told him NOT to call me by my name because it was so ridiculous.


Hey TJT, I mentioned in my thread how hard it is for my W to not call me ‘hun,’ ‘babe,’ or ‘love,’ like she used to. The boys, especially OS, get that way more than I do. Every now and then, it slips through her lips, and it sounds / feels like nothing changed, except that everything did. Like you, I don’t especially like it when she calls me by my first name, but unlike you, I haven’t done what you did to your H. The flip side is that for her, she has stopped get called ‘hun,’ ‘babe’ or ‘sexy’ by me. Just not feeling it, and she doesn’t exactly deserve it right now.

I’m sorry for your sitch (read your intro), and it sounds like you deserve so much better. It will be there some day, like it will be for us all.

(((TJT)))
Posted By: TJT Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/27/18 06:12 AM
Thanks Bo. I'm pretty stuck between wanting to stick mine out until the end of time and blowing it up with all the explosives known to man. I'll head over to check out your thread and learn more about your sitch.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/27/18 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by TJT

I had the hardest time when my H started calling me by my name instead of "babe". I actually told him NOT to call me by my name because it was so ridiculous. So I like that you've said this and if I ever get the same opportunity I may steal it from your playbook. Within reason, of course. You are great at setting the boundaries, just make sure they don't become excessive as "punishment" which will further inhibit R2.

During our MR my XW was always annoyed by me using her first name. I’d say her name and she’d say mine back mockingly, and then she’d say it was weird. So after we got back together, and she started back with the ILY she’d use pet names like before, so I stopped her from doing it. She got kind of upset about it, and she wanted to know why I was stopping her. I asked her if she called anyone else “sweetie” after our D. That’s all I had to say for her to understand.

I get what you’re saying about not using my boundaries as punishment. I agree, but I also tend to feel like I cannot make this easy for her. She can’t just step back into my life and pick up where SHE left off. She agreed up front to my terms and conditions and she is earning back everything that I once gave her willingly. During our MR she was privileged and spoiled. I gave her everything she wanted. Not this time. She threw all of that away, and now she has to work for it. I think some people view this as me being an aggressive control freak, but I am doing this with a plan that is motivated by love. Love for myself, my son, and my XW. I’m not really a hard ass. I’m a big softie, and that’s part of what got me into this mess. I had NGS and she was a controller. Well, not anymore. Lol.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/27/18 11:00 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
I had NGS and she was a controller. Well, not anymore. Lol.


I would just caution you against taking it too far. And that's "too far" in her opinion, not yours. She could again say "this just isn't worth it." Be sure you are holding her to boundaries that are actually important to you.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/28/18 12:32 AM
Thanks for the reminder. My boundaries are more than reasonable, especially at this juncture. If they're too much for her, then she probably does need to reevaluate if she has what it takes to make this work.
Posted By: NicoleR Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/28/18 04:02 AM
Hi Joe,

I can relate to your conflicting feelings since my husband did come back the first time and I didn't trust him despite letting him back (my fault). It's truly hard to love someone the same way when you've been betrayed. It sounds like she came back recently so there's no need to rush. Maybe you could even take a little break from seeing her to think on your own. But if someone messes up and they're truly sorry and will do anything to fix it I believe they are worth a second chance after slowly earning your trust back, especially if you and your wife were doing well up she went off the deep end. The thing is there is a risk involved with taking her back, just as there is a risk with anyone, so I guess you have to be willing to accept the risk as well as manage your feelings about her betrayal in a way that doesn't repeatedly punish her forever. I kept punishing my husband for two years after he back and he was still wrong to leave again but I do believe the endless punishment reflected badly on my part and I was wrong to do that.


It's still a success story to read that your ex-wife came back and that you have the option of trying again with her. I really do hope it works out!
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 03:03 AM
Thanks Nicole. I am trying hard not to continually punish her. What types of things did you find yourself doing that you felt pushed away your H? I am having difficulty communicating how my XW can improve the relationship between myself and also my son. It always leads to her feeling like I am expressing disappointment. I try my best to put things out there neutrally but she is good at picking up on what I’m saying.

I am still trying to learn how to trust her again. Like Vanilla said, I know there are some things I can trust her with but not others. But for the most part, I’m having difficulty trusting her with my heart.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:12 AM
Joe,

It's going to take time and patience. It's almost a year and a half and I still find it hard to trust my W sometimes. We still have trouble communicating sometimes, we have gotten a lot better, but it has been a lot of ups and downs getting to this point. The thing that got me was how I started to move on while I was DBing and once we started piecing I couldn't stop asking questions and being angry.

None of the anger or question after question session ever helped. What helped was me finding ways to move forward with my life while loving my W and while working on the M. What also helped was me being direct and open about my feelings without blaming my W.

For example. The A and thoughts of the OM makes me so mad. Instead of your affair and what you did with OM makes me so angry. The first statement is all about how I feel and not about what my W did to me.

Anothe example. I really want you to do call me when you are out because it makes you feel safe and that helps me with trust for our M. Instead of, when you go out you need to call me because I'm having a hard time trusting you. The first is about what you need and less about how you feel about her.

Time is your friend and open communication is your healer. Please find a MC that's works for you and your W. We found this one counselor is she is awesome. A good counselor will help translate you and your W emotions into words. Give adive to help strengthen you'll marriage.

Be patient, be patient. Another thing that helps is making new fun memories. Make new memories to give you and your W fresh conversation and memory pieces to talk about and build on. Do things around other healthy couples and find new events to go and explore together. Find new and fresh things to do together that you all didn't do before BD.

Onward and forward
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 04:50 PM
Joejoe,

Thanks for taking the time to write that up. I remember reading your thread and praying for the same opportunity with my XW. Now that I have it, I realize that I really am a different person now after DBing. I also realize that I got over the D and I got over my XW. I just never got over the pain and resentment. I really just bottled it up because it didn’t matter anymore. But now that it DOES matter, I find that the resentment is there still. For instance, we were talking about the past (dangerous, I know) the other day and I told her that it really just makes me mad that she screwed OM in our bed in OUR house. She didn’t have anything to say, she just apologized over and over and cried. She said it was terrible and she will never stop trying to make it up to me. Not a good way to spend our time together.

So thank you for the tips. I know we need to get in to see a MC. I know that will be very important for us. I feel like if she truly is remorseful then we have a chance to build a really good relationship. I just don’t know if I am on fully on board... I have my guard up so high and I don’t know if I can let it down.

Also, our kids are both very very cautious about this too. They have both voiced concerns to us about how XW hurt everyone, and neither of them really trust her. It’s a tough spot to be in for her, and I don’t know what I can do to make things better because it isn’t easy for me to be supportive of her when I feel like she could go screw any dude out there at any given moment. I also have the gut feeling that she still loves OM, like she gave him the ILYBINILWY treatment like she did to me. I don’t have any evidence of this, I just get the feeling.

Ugh. I don’t know if this is worth it.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
Ugh. I don’t know if this is worth it.


A chance at true love (again) is always worth it. It's better than no chance at all.

If you feel like you can truly love this woman again, then it will be worth it. If you cannot, then you know what you will need to do.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by pain18
Originally Posted by Joe2017
Ugh. I don’t know if this is worth it.


A chance at true love (again) is always worth it. It's better than no chance at all.

If you feel like you can truly love this woman again, then it will be worth it. If you cannot, then you know what you will need to do.

Agreed. Life is about taking chances to make improvements.

I know I love her. I never quit loving her. But would it be tacky to say that I love her, but I'm not IN love with her?

At least right now.
Posted By: burned Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:34 PM
Joe, you are a DB god to me. I don’t know if there’s anything I can say that you haven’t already heard.

You’ve acknowledged it, and I agree, that the anger and resentment is strong. It also seems like you’re dishing it out fairly heavy-handedly. Maybe think back to the beginning of your DB days and think about whether your actions reflect needs or real love. Do your actions move her closer to you or push her further away? Does her feeling guilty and crying do anything at all to make YOU feel better? Or is it really just the actual “saying it” part that helps?

If it’s the latter, then why not write it down and save it for later? There will be a time when you can tell her how you feel with the help of a professional to moderate the discussion. In the meantime it seems to me like the emotions are still too raw and are better off in the pages of a journal than getting in between you and your loving W.

Past is past. Not to invalidate your feelings, but leave them where they belong, and focus on actions you can take today based on your current reality.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:44 PM
Burned,

Thank you!!! You are right, I need to differentiate the reasons why I engage in the conversations with her that I do. We have already established that she can’t explain why she had an A with a literal idiot. I will never get an explanation because IT DOES NOT EXIST. Those conversations are a waste of time and hurt more than help.

I need to help make our new relationship the best that it can be if we are going to have a real chance at this. There is no timeline, and there is no rush. XW has continually said she will wait for me, and she is never going to leave no matter how long it takes for me to trust her again. Maybe I should concede some here, and allow a LITTLE bit of faith back into our relationship. I’ve been so focused on making her prove herself that maybe I haven’t given her enough credit for the things she actually HAS done.

This is all really really new to me. This is the only ex that I have ever had a second relationship with, and it’s certainly the only ex-wife I’ve ever tried this with.

OK... Faith. Let’s see where this takes us.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
But would it be tacky to say that I love her, but I'm not IN love with her?


Not at all. It makes perfect sense.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 12/31/18 05:53 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
I have my guard up so high and I don’t know if I can let it down.



Joe, this quote struck a note with me. This is something that seeing a MC can help with.

I think it's a great idea to write it down, and later, months later perhaps, decide then whether you want to share it with her.

Originally Posted by Joe2017
BI’ve been so focused on making her prove herself that maybe I haven’t given her enough credit for the things she actually HAS done..


I think you would be well served by this.

And you are in completely new territory. It's ok to be unsure. Take it slow. Take it easy.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/01/19 02:59 PM
Thanks Jim. I have adjusted my attitude and tried to see how much XW is trying now. It's actually night and day compared to what we had in our MR. She is much more thoughtful, she is always asking me for my opinion, and she makes extra effort to look nice for no reason other than I'm around. So, she really acts like she's very interested in dating me, and that is nice. Time will tell if this will last, but I am in no hurry. I just need to keep giving her credit for what she does to rebuild our R.

Journal:
We did a little NYE thing together and it went well. We had a short talk about our MR and the A, in which she said she values marriage. I made a clear line in the sand and told her that she didn't value ours, so how can she say that? She says she made a mistake and she will never stop making it up to me for the rest of her life. Hmm. OK, validated it and moved on. I'm not sure... Seemed like a foggy thing to say, like cake eating. Hard to reconcile those statements. Got to give that more thought, maybe.

She really does seem genuine, though. No matter how steadfast I am in denying her any sympathy for her behavior during A she has continued to take responsibility. I wonder if she still "loves" OM. Which would not bother me if it were just an old boyfriend. I still love my ex-GF, things just didn't work out with us. The difference is my ex was not an OW. Maybe that's just semantics.

Piecing is harder than I thought it would be. One day at a time...
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/02/19 08:56 PM
Wow. Today I woke up from a really upsetting dream regarding my XW and I've been feeling doubt about her all day.

XW regressing and cheating again is definitely my deepest fear. I am stuck. I want to trust her with my heart but I can't. Not yet, maybe never. Of course it's early but still.

I almost feel like I detached so much over the last year that I can't regain the emotional ties that are essential to a marriage or LTR.

I may have to put this R on hold.
Posted By: GFT00 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/02/19 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
Wow. Today I woke up from a really upsetting dream regarding my XW and I've been feeling doubt about her all day.

XW regressing and cheating again is definitely my deepest fear. I am stuck. I want to trust her with my heart but I can't. Not yet, maybe never. Of course it's early but still.

I almost feel like I detached so much over the last year that I can't regain the emotional ties that are essential to a marriage or LTR.

I may have to put this R on hold.


Did she ever cheat before she met you? I think you know my sitch and the one thing I’ve gotten from doing research is that if their parents were cheaters and if they cheated before this is their go to behavior when things get difficult.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/02/19 09:19 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
Wow. Today I woke up from a really upsetting dream regarding my XW and I've been feeling doubt about her all day.

XW regressing and cheating again is definitely my deepest fear. I am stuck. I want to trust her with my heart but I can't. Not yet, maybe never. Of course it's early but still.

I almost feel like I detached so much over the last year that I can't regain the emotional ties that are essential to a marriage or LTR.

I may have to put this R on hold.


You go at your own pace, Joe. YOU have the power. And you will ultimately decide whether or not you want to give this woman another chance. Your WW has inflicted so much damage and pain to you. Of course going back to the person who has caused this pain is a huge risk. HUGE! You have a lot of PTSD from this ordeal. And of course you are going to be cautious and have doubts.

My piecing advice may not jibe with the advice with the folks who successfully, so I would advise you lean on them more for guidelines on what to do.

That being said, you will need to eventually open up bit by bit to her and re-establish the trust essential for a relationship. Maybe seek the services of a family counselor to help. Maybe post here about what you are thinking of doing/saying and get an objective viewpoint of your current situation and have the knowledge and tools needed to make a smart LOGICAL decision.

There are a lot of folks here who are rooting for you, Joe. Me included. Inspire us. Give us hope. The hope to move forward and live our best life with whomever they may be.

Lots of love.
Posted By: burned Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/02/19 10:47 PM
You detached abruptly and strongly, less than a year ago. By the way you’ve been posting lately I’d say you still need a lot of time to heal.

Sounds like she’s willing to give you that time. Can you heal alongside her, or do you need to ask her to back off? Doesn’t sound like she’s in a hurry to get remarried, so...gift of time?

Remember what they tell us newbies: emotions change.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/03/19 12:54 AM
GFT:
No, she never cheated before we married. She did cheat on OM though.

Phoenix & burned:
Thank you for the suggestions. I wonder if I am really healed from the hurt. It mostly does not bother me. My main issue here is not the hurt from being betrayed, although that does feel bad at times if I think about it. What I'm having a hard time with is believing that XW is a changed person. I 100% believe she is remorseful. She has never made anything about her since she came back. It has all been focused on my needs and those of our kids.

Part of me is looking at this as a marriage again, which is an inaccurate approach. The other part of me keeps reminding me that it's not nearly that serious and we are only dating right now.

XW said her goal is to marry me again someday, but I do not feel pressured to remarry.

She has said all of the right things. ALL of the right things! I think my difficulty is having faith.
Posted By: Yail Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/03/19 01:15 AM
Joe, you must feel like you're in entirely new terrain. I suppose you are.

You say that you're having trouble having faith. I feel like having (blind) faith is a blessing you only get with a new partner. That blind trust that they won't hurt you. With your experience with your XW you can't really have blind faith this early in the game no matter how much you both wish it so.

I expect that's really difficult. Part of your brain wishes you could pick back up where you left off, because that's where you are both familiar. But since that road is blocked to you, you're both navigating to find what other paths are options.

I think you're doing a great job at being honest throughout your search. It sounds like she is as well. So even though you have to take a different road this time, you both still may get to your destination.

It's like your previous shared path is blocked, so you've each chosen another side-route to get there. And along the way you're calling out, "Marco!" "Polo!" to be sure the other is still headed in the same direction. You're hoping these new paths will converge soon so you can continue to travel together.

Wishing you luck in whatever is next for you.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/03/19 04:12 AM
Thank you Yail!

I am simply not moving at the same pace that XW is. And that's OK. We're navigating towards the same destination using different maps. Eventually I hope we both get there.

One obstacle we have is that neither of our kids want us to date right now. They both have a negative view of XW when it comes to relationships, and both are also very defensive of me. I can't say that they are wrong for feeling how they do.

Time is our ally. XW has a long road ahead regaining her son and my son's trust, as well as mine.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 06:25 AM
Journaling:
Well I did a little backsliding today. I've been doing so much research on whether or not cheaters will cheat again, and the overwhelming evidence is that they will continue to cheat as long as they can get away with it. They can also become serial cheaters, and cheat again and again because of how they can become addicted to the thrill of the game.
Well, sht. That crap got inside my head all day long.

But it got me thinking, and I made XW tell me about any interactions she's had with OM.

So, I found out that OM has asked to use her as a personal reference for a rental application for a house. She told him that she gave him a good reference. She was friendly, but not wordy. I told her that I did not like how friendly she was. She said she is trying to keep the peace and still wants his kid to have a place to live. I told her I understand that, but restated that I do not like how friendly she was to him. He also temp checked her, and she ignored those messages. So that's good, I guess.

Now, I know that the interaction was not gushy and over the top but I still don't like it at all. This might be a deal breaker for me. I'm seriously thinking about breaking this off.

She has not stopped giving me everything I ask for, but I can tell she is getting tired of all of my demands. To be fair, it has been pretty harsh for her over the past couple weeks because I have been making her painfully aware of the reality of what her actions caused during her A.

I need to take a step back and re-evaluate what I am doing and why I am doing it. Recon might be the wrong thing to do. I am alright with ending this if it is the best course of action.

OK, going to bed now. What a weird few weeks. Lol.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 06:42 AM
Oh yeah, we are going to a counselor as soon as we select one, and make all of the scheduling work.
Posted By: DejaVu6 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 08:02 AM
Lots of things to think about Joe. Is this your XW’s only affair or have there been others? I have to admit, when I read your post, my first thought was that your fears and insecurities are more about you than they are about her. What is it they say about trust? You can lose it in an instant but it can take a lifetime to earn it back?

I think I wrote about it before on my thread but my first H had an affair with a mutual friend. I don’t think it had gotten to be physical but if it didn’t, it was close. I discovered it by accident because I called my answering machine when I was away for a weekend and played back the messages and she had left a message for him that was way too friendly. Now my sitch was different because the A ended the day I found out about it but I remember clearly thinking at the time that I had a choice to make. I would either have to end my marriage or stay with my H, figure out what needed to be fixed in our MR and find a way to trust him again. I ended up choosing the latter and I remember having to consciously choose every day to trust him because I knew that neither of us would thrive in a marriage where he was constantly having to answer questions about his whereabouts and I was constantly wondering what he was up to. It was difficult at first but it got a lot easier as time went on and I made him promise me that if he ever felt the need to stray again, he would respect me enough to end our marriage first because that is essentially what would happen anyway. I remember actually being grateful for his A because it brought us closer together and I am confident he never cheated on me again. Our marriage ended two years later but it was the mutual decision of two people who were going different directions. I am proud to say we are still good friends today...19 years later. He recently apologized to me - not for the A because that is water under the bridge - but because he said I was not married to the best version of him and he was very “ego-driven” back then - looking for validation from people and things outside of himself and outside of our marriage. I think my current H is similar in that regard. Maybe I have a “type”...lol.

Anyway...my point, and I do have one, is that I think you have a similar decision to make. My H had contact with our “friend” often because she was the GF of one of his best friends so I couldn’t tell him never to have any contact with her again. I had to trust that any contact he did have with her would be completely appropriate and in the context of his friendship with her BF. If I didn’t trust that, then I didn’t trust him and our marriage would have had no chance. It would also have gone against my decision to trust him.

You asked your XW about her interactions with the OM and she told you what they were. She could have told you she’s had no interactions but she didn’t. I get why she would give him a reference for a rental application and I think her reasons are likely genuine - especially because she ignored the temp check texts. I also get why you wouldn’t like it. Not liking it and not trusting her are two different things. I didn’t like that my H would still be having contact with the AP but it didn’t affect my choice to trust him. You also wrote that you’ve been making a lot of demands on your XW? The way you worded it makes it sound like you are punishing her or trying to make her feel more guilt because you don’t think she is remorseful enough? Is there anything that she can say or do to show you that she is? That is actually a question that I think you need to ask yourself. If the answer is “no” and you can’t make the choice to trust her than maybe recon isn’t a good idea.

I think examining your reasons for recon is important. I think you need to really understand what they are in order to make a clear decision. Maybe you are putting too much pressure on yourself and on her? Maybe you do need to take a step back and think or just go out with her as friends and not worry about what it means or where it is headed. Maybe you just work at being friends first. I don’t know... I’m probably rambling now. I’m a romantic at heart so I like to think that all recons can work out but that’s probably pretty unrealistic. Anyway... I hope you had a good sleep. (((HUGS)))
Posted By: ballast Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 11:32 AM
Joe...so like Deja in my first marriage, my W had an affair which brought about our divorce. At that time for me, I was of the mindset once someone cheats, that marriage is done, divorce and find someone else. It was black and white, the thought of recon was never a thought for me. Well now in my current sitch i haven't the foggiest clue what my WW is up to. She may or may not have an OM. Thing is when she left I was way more interested in R'ing with her...again likely because i have no evidence of an affair/OM. As time has gone on, i've spent a good bit of time asking myself "if W did have an OM and someday wanted to come back, what would i do?" Along those lines i've spent a great deal of time reading up on how incredibly hard R'ing from infidelity can be and at least right now...I'm thankful I do not have to make that decision. I still believe for me it would be a yes/no moral question. Did she cheat with OM? if so, then I can't R with her. Thing is I KNOW I would be an agonized, completely angry hot mess as I would know that i loved her, never wanted us to be in this position and would be raging against having to make such a painful decision especially as if I had said yes, then my D might have her family back together again. It is true to me that the R we all desire is infinitely harder to deal with if/when the chance of it comes around.

What I want to share with you from what reading i've done on the topic is that the concensus seems to be that it takes the betrayed spouse between 2-5 years to "recover" from the betrayal. If you look at what Sandi says about WWs and how long they need to process through whatever they are going to, that timeline is similiar. I think what I would say to you is that you are WAY early days both in any kind of R AND in your recovery process. I think you need to do your best to let this unfold naturally and not make rash decisions. Perhaps set yourself a marker of say "i'll give it 6 months" or something like that. For me given what I know of your sitch, I'd be a flat no even though as I say I would HATE it.

As for the OM, she needs to fully terminate contact with him. It is noble of her to be worried for his child, but that is a leverage point for him in her life and it must be ended. Definitely something that could be spoken about in MC. She needs to focus solely on the family she betrayed and not any other. Just my two cents.

praying for you buddy...give yourself the grace of some time to see where this goes before making final decisions.

-b
Posted By: neffer Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 11:45 AM
You need to be patient Joe. Piecing takes time and commitment. I´m three years into it. And I´m still longing for OW in my fantasy world sometimes...not the real world. I know that. I´m working into it. So I treat myself as an addict, and go step after step.

Time and patience. You have the freedom of choice there. Account that.
Posted By: Yail Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 01:49 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
I've been doing so much research on whether or not cheaters will cheat again, and the overwhelming evidence is that they will continue to cheat as long as they can get away with it.


My thoughts on this is that it is likely similar to the "research" all us LBS/MFSs do on whether or not our spouses will return. We look for ourselves in statistics, stories and even worse...clickbait on the internet.

Only you will know if you feel she will or won't repeat past behavior. Trust yourself, since right now you can't yet fully trust her. Your own gut and experiences will guide you.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
She has not stopped giving me everything I ask for, but I can tell she is getting tired of all of my demands. To be fair, it has been pretty harsh for her over the past couple weeks because I have been making her painfully aware of the reality of what her actions caused during her A.


I was reading your response in another thread where you were talking about how she has forgotten so much of what she said and did. The reality is probably that she caused much more harm than she remembers (or wants to remember). Separation and divorce was on her timeline, but recon is on YOUR timeline. If recon is that important to her then she will give you the time to work through these things. If she's impatient about it well that is not a good sign because it's that same old "give me what I want and give it to me now" WAS mindset at work. Take your time to process this stuff, there's no rush.

Quote
I need to take a step back and re-evaluate what I am doing and why I am doing it. Recon might be the wrong thing to do. I am alright with ending this if it is the best course of action.


Good, that is a great mindset to have in this. You have options, you are in the driver's seat. Let her sweat it out a bit, there is no reason to rush back into anything.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 02:48 PM
Nah I'm not punishing her. I just have rules she has to follow due to trust issues. But every time I talk about what I need for building trust it makes her feel guilty and she gets upset because she said she feels guilty every day already, and this has been going on for weeks.

She says she never wants to hurt me again. But I have heard that before...
She says she loves me and she's in love with me. But I have heard that before...
She said there's nothing more important to her than me. But I have heard that before...
She said she will never cheat on me (again). But I have heard that before...

I'd hate to traumatize my kid again by involving her in our lives and having our trust violated a second time.

This is probably going to hurt. Lol.

Edits:
I just wanted to thank everyone for their input and opinions. You've all given me a lot of great insights.
Posted By: neffer Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 03:11 PM
Is she into IC? She should be...
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 04:45 PM
Joe,



I did alot of research on will a person that has committed affair do it again, watched a lot of videos also. I researched for months. After countless hours spent on trying to get that question answered, I realized the truth is nobody has an answer. Human beings are just to unpredictable. There are alot of studies trying to predict peoples actions by using their prior actions. There are many articles showing cheaters will always be cheaters there all also many articles showing how affairs strengthen marriages , especially if both individuals are willing to put in the hardwork to create the proper boundaries and respect each other.

You are going to have to be patient. It took me almost a year to stop asking questions and questioning my wife about her actions during the A. We starting piecing at the end of OCT, I think one of my last questioning sessions came in June of the next year. I got the same answers from my wife every session and I never felt any better after those sessions and always left those sessions trying to think of more questions to ask. Those sessions never helped after the first few questioning session, they just ruined the mood and left darkest filled days.

As I read your post, I realize you are trying to make it your job to teach your XW a lesson on what her actions has caused. It's not your job to teach your wife a lesson. You probably feel like your W hasn't learned her lesson and she needs to feel what it feels like to hurt a person, the way she hurt you. She just don't get what you are going thru. Seems to me she understand the damage she has caused. She will never feel the pain you felt the way you felt it because she is not you. She is dealing with her own pain and she has to do her own healing to do. You have to let the healing and time do it's work. You like me are so worried about her hurting you again, that you are trying to get to a 100% answer letting you know it will never happen again, there's no answer for us in that regards my friend.

We don't know the future, the only thing we can do is work on ourselves and set no expectations of what a M should look like. Marriages are ever evolving. Stop trying to teach your W. Stop trying to control your W. Stop trying to get her to give you an answer she will never be able to give. The only thing you can go off is her actions. If her actions are showing you that she is in it to work on the M, give her space to do so. A person can only be guilted for so long. You are less than a month it and you are looking for some sort of perfection. There is no perfection. My W and I had a fight two nights ago about disciplining our boys, she was right and I was wrong, before the A, I would yell, scream, storm off, not listen, tell her she was wrong, but the difference now, is my W is patient a we are both aware of our communication problems. I mentioned that because, we still run into issues, I still get angry on days, or feel down. Some days I still think to myself, WTF.

I have also found myself thinking about what if I had an A, would my W stay with me. She has told me she would, but who knows. I have found myself also having intimate conversations with women I work with, and I have to pull back. I'm telling you this, just to let you know, that we will continue to deal with some of the same problems, now we are just more aware.

Something your W shouldn't be doing is having any contact for any reason with the OM. She has no reason to be helping him out, there's other people that can help him out. I had my W send a no contact/last contact/have a happy life letter to the OM. She wrote it, I proofread it, change some words around and watched as she pressed send.

I would also found a counselor, and counselor that deals with A ASAP to help you all work thru the problems are building a new and solid foundation.

Onward and Forward
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 10:04 PM
Thanks joejoe.

I have not consciously made it my mission to punish her. I can see that it is the case though, whether it is subconscious or somehow purposely.

I am going to make a concerted effort to stop.

I plan on having one more conversation about OM where I tell her she needs to write something up to tell him to never contact her again. We did agree that if he ever contacts her, she will notify me immediately. He did text her this afternoon about the rental, and she did tell me within 2 minutes.

I think she is seriously trying. I need to give her more than I have been giving her. I know this is hard for her too.

I agree with everyone about counseling. I have been to A LOT of counseling, so I know the value in it. Lol, actually my last girlfriend asked me one time during an argument "How much counseling have you been to!!?" when I kept diffusing everything and validating her feelings. Lol. Huh... I miss her sometimes.

Anyhow. I have a lot work to do! But I'm more optimistic today than I have been all week.
Posted By: Ready2Change Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/04/19 11:05 PM


Sit down with her. Have her call him. Have her say:

"Please respect my wishes and do not contact me anymore. Goodbye" and then hang up.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/05/19 03:14 PM
Well. OM was notified to never contact her again and told that their relationship and the affair was the biggest mistake of XW’s life. XW agreed to ignore OM from now on. It created a really awful stream of hate from OM that I had to help XW deal with. It scared her, but it will go away eventually.

Coupled with the realization that my S is not happy that XW is in our lives again made the night very hard on her.

I’m going to have to back off quite a bit and give her some space to feel this out. She is close to giving up because of how much she has put into getting me back only to face obstacle after obstacle. I don’t know if she thought she could just walk back into my life with ease, but that’s definitely not the case.

She has had to face many emotionally charged days with me. It’s time for me to go back to the mindset of clearing the path so the road back is clear. I believe my XW is a good person at heart.
Posted By: Yail Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/05/19 03:22 PM
I hope you all slept well last night Joe, especially your XW. It's a new day.

I'm guessing that the phone call with XOM was very difficult for her, even though she sounds like she had no resistence in making that call. It probably dredged up a lot of old confusion and made her wonder why she ever made those past decisions. Also, being yelled at with hateful words is hard on anyone's emotional fortitude. Does she have any real fear of him? Would he ever find his way to your house or her house?

I hope the weekend allows you both some quiet time where she feels safe to "come down" (emotionally).

Giving her space sounds like a good idea. Be sure she understands (tell her with words) you're not leaving, just giving her and yourself some breathing room so you can both walk forward in a healthy way. Emotions block our abilities to read the room, and now is a time that silly misunderstandings could step in.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/05/19 08:45 PM
Hi Yail! I slept well with the help of some melatonin.

The call was difficult because he basically yelled and cursed at her the whole time, shifted blame, insulted her, and threatened to call me and tell me everything she has done. Which he is more than welcome to do, I guess. Whatever. He's definitely a power tripping controller type. She is very worried about what he will do to her, yeah. But she made the call anyways, and she did it without any hesitation. Like as soon as I brought up the idea, her phone was in her hand and she was calling.

I'm being very supportive of her and I'm settling more into the caring boyfriend role. I have to ditch the LBS mindset.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 05:34 AM
Joe, I'm glad she made the call without hesitation or equivocation. I'm sure the vitriol he was spewing made her think even more about "what the heck was I thinking leaving Joe for HIM?" That had to be very hard to hear. I'm glad you're giving her a little more space,

Originally Posted by Yail
Be sure she understands (tell her with words) you're not leaving, just giving her and yourself some breathing room so you can both walk forward in a healthy way.


I think this ^^ is really good advice.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 07:23 AM
Well, I'm back as square one emotionally.

I don't know if I will be able to get over the fact that she had a girls gone wild phase and is now supposedly over it. I have reason to believe that she had sex with more guys than she has told me about. Which is fine, I guess. It is not unlike dating someone new who I don't have any history with, except I do. I think she is lying a bit to save face. Yes, I looked at her phone. Gotta validate, right?

I don't know how to approach her about this without destroying all the work we've put into this so far. I mean, really? How do you tell the woman you love that... You LOVE her but don't trust her NOT to become a promiscuous piece of garbage again?

You know, we put so much into wanting to save our marriages that we come to a place like this. A place that literally has all of the tools and advice we'd ever need to save our own lives and POSSIBLY save our marriages after D... the second-most traumatic experience besides death that could strike us. We hope beyond hope for a chance to reconcile with the person who has left US in the dust. We pray that there was not an affair, yet 95% of the time they were screwing OP behind our backs.

Still we wait, and we DB, and we recreate ourselves into amazing people. Seriously, this site is FULL of the most amazing people that I have ever never met. We recreate ourselves, we stand up a lighthouse. We pray. We evolve and grow. We continue. We detach. We do fantastic things and overcome insurmountable obstacles.

We hear that yes, many waywards end up coming back to the spouse they betrayed. Maybe in 6 months, maybe in a year or two or three. Sometimes they are even willing to do the work to reconcile.

So here I am. In the situation I prayed to God for SO MANY TIMES. My XW has come back and repented. She is remorseful. She is subservient. In SO MANY ways, she is now the wife I always wanted during our marriage, but never got, because she tells me that she knows she was deficient so she is working to fix it. My freaking XW is doing 180's to please ME now... the person she chose to betray in the worst way possible.

She's done so much work already to try to regain my trust... seriously, she has done almost all of the things Sandi writes of when she describes how the LBS should approach a wayward who is returning. But I am so far from trusting my XW that I feel distant. And the more I become attached, the harder I want to push her away. What is wrong with me? Probably nothing but I don't feel like this is nothing.

I don't think I'm strong enough to do this. I think that this may not be worth the effort. I think I might be better off without her. I don't want to hurt her, and I don't want to hurt our kids.

I am almost close to being... Scared right now. Wow, is that normal? I've been deployed to war. I wore armor every day, carried guns, been in combat, and never ever got PTSD from it... and my freaking XW is scaring me? AGAIN???

This sht is bananas.
Posted By: joejoe1 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 08:46 AM
Joe,

I have been blown up in Iraq. Was Medavac off the battlefield. Watch people and vehicles shot up in Iraq. Shot at with PKMs and rockets in Afghanistan. Watch my friends vehicle get blown up in Afghanistan, I watch as they all stumbled out the MATV. Fall to the grown and we pulled security until the Medavac arrived. I watch how the little girls and women are treated by the men and the smelled the horrible smells coming from little girls that made heat paddies (which was made out of doo doo and dry grass). Which, the smells is really the only thing that haunts me today. I live normal life, considering. I have a Purple Heart and a Combat Action Badge.

My mother drown in Hurricane Katrina. And right after the Hurricane I didn't hear from anybody in my family for almost a week. And I didn't find out my mother had drawn until November 10th or so. I had to go to Baton to give a DNA sample, I did that in October of 2005. My mother's body rotted in our house for over 2 months in the New Orleans Humidity. We had to have a closed casket funeral. I cried for 3 months straight after her funeral and wouldn't believe she was dead because I never got to see her body, we were advised not to view it.

None of that has been as hard as piecing and learning to trust again. This Sh!t is harder than DBing. While DBing we are freeing ourselves, moving on, dumping the craziness, once we are on that path we start to gain clarity amd freedom. In piecing we are opening up our old wounds becoming vurnable again. It's not fun, and we see all the risk with opening ourselves up again to the person that wounded us, we see all that pain we just shook off us coming back and it scares the living hell out of us. It's not easy brother and it takes time, you have to be patient. Also, it took me a while to realize but your wife is not your healer, you are. Her job is to heal herself and work on the M. Your happiness and healing is not your W responsibility, ITS YOURS!!!!

I posted in the piecing tread most of the beginning of my journey of reconnecting. Please read it. This Sh!t is a roller coaster. One day last FEB, I was holding my baby boy, out of nowhere I just look at my wife and started crying, I handed her my son and I just turned around and ran out the house. It was freezing outside, I didn't have a jacket and had shorts on. I just kept running for like 30 or 40 mins. I did sprints and everything. What made me cry was, I looked at my son, and then looked at my W and I almost yelled out I can't do this, I want a Divorce. When I came back, my W can running to the door and said are you ok. I just sat down with her and explained my feelings and thoughts. She understood.

So, yes your feelings are normal and so are your actions. Dealing with reconnecting brings on PTSD like symthoms. You are fragile right now.

Keep posting and keep going forward

Time, time, time, let time do it's work.

Oh and my W just left a 1:30 A.M to console one of her friends, her 17 year old son was shot in the head and they are pulling the plug in the morning. This world is ruthless. He was a good kid, was joining the Army when he graduate. I was at the Texans and Colts game, what a horrible game played by Houston. Driving back to SA and get that news from wife. I pulled up, she went out. Our trust of each other have gotten better. I'm a Whodat boy thou!

Please pray for my W friend. Parents shouldn't have to bury their children!!!!!

Onward and upward/forward
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 09:13 AM
WARNING: This is going to sound very superficial but I can't shake it. It's eating away at me.

XW used to be really skinny. She's very attractive. She never got what I consider to be overweight at all. But she had a few pounds on her when we first met. No big deal. She was was the woman of my dreams.

She had body image issues. So I supported her going and getting fit. I supported her going to the gym as much as she wanted. Then she went wayward, lost the weight, screwed a bunch of dudes. In fact, the OM was her gddamn coach at her gym!!!!! So, me supporting her fitness goals backfired in my face.

She was seriously HOT after the divorce. During her girls gone wild sht... She was smoking hot.

Then she gained the weight back when she hit rock bottom. Now she comes back to me when she is less attractive, and she tells me she hates how she looks.

I don't care about her weight at all. I loved her the most when she was the heaviest she's ever been in her life. Our M was very fulfilling back then and I didn't care about her weight at all.

Now I feel like she only came back to me because she feels unattractive, yet knew I was someone who accepted her regardless of her body.

But it makes me feel like -- at least physically -- she gave her best to everyone else instead of me. And now I get leftovers?

Yeah, that's super shallow. Trust me I know. I am not actually that superficial, but I can't help this feeling that I'm settling for my XW. This is NOT about her appearance as much as it is the idea that she worked her ass off to give her ass to other dudes. And now she's probably never going to get to that level physically again.

I really just feel like I'm settling for XW... not only emotionally and relationally, but now physically as well. Judge me if you like, but I feel like I've gotten the short end of the stick throughout this entire relationship.

I have never ever thought this way about my wife before, but now I do. It worries me how shallow this feels. I feel like a damn male chauvinist pig for having these feelings,

I don't know what's wrong with me.
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 09:25 AM
Joejoe, thank you for the candid response. I will write more tomorrow... I know I'm spiralling over here so I need to take a break.

I'm about to go to sleep, and you can bet that I will be praying for your wife and her friend's family. The world can most definitely be ruthless and cold.

Thank you again joejoe.
Posted By: LH19 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 12:50 PM
Originally Posted by Joe2017
She is close to giving up because of how much she has put into getting me back only to face obstacle after obstacle.


Joe I see a lot of red flags in your situation and I am just going to give you my OPINION.

Just like bomb was the hardest thing you ever went through, this is the hardest thing she should ever go through. If she is close to giving up already that's a big red flag.

Other red flags:

She's already lying to you again. How many guys she slept with afterwards matters.

Issues with your son? I thought they worked everything out?

She is definitely looking for someone to make her happy. She hasn't even tried to be on her own at all.

Right from the start something didn't seem right to me. This happened too fast. IMO true successful recons happen way down the road after you have walked different paths and have grown and have experienced life apart.

I think you are correct that she had some crappy experiences with OM and put on some weight and has come running back to good ole Joe. You guys are still young. What happens 7 years from now when your relationship shifts and she gets bored again?
Posted By: job Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 01:50 PM
Please start a new thread and link the two threads together. Thanks!
Posted By: Joe2017 Re: LBS dealing with WW (part 6) - 01/06/19 04:28 PM
Part 7 continued here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831421#Post2831421
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