Keeping the faith ... finding me

Link to old thread ...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2820179#Post2820179

Originally Posted by FlySolo

No response on email yet but have just been sent texts with pics of sneakers I might like. FFS !!!

He is thinking of you and he cares. He has probably read the email. If he is passive-aggressive as you describe him, then he is likely conflict-averse, as well. The texts could be an attempt to reduce the feeling of conflict created by the email. Think of it as titrating his level of discomfort, something like that.

Quick recap of sitch or what I like to call "Welcome to Limbo Land"

BD Oct 17 - "I am not happy", "not sure how to be happy" "not sure we can ever change" - no real indication of what is making him unhappy. I go into survival mode, switching between "we can fix this" to "you [censored], how dare you do this to me", "I don't need your [censored], why don't you just leave" back to "I love you, we can fix this".
MO Mar 18 - six months of toxic hell. He can't look at me with anything but contempt. I catch moments of sadness in his eyes. I am a shattered mess. I know with 100% certainty there was no OW.
Mar - Jun 18 - Limbo. He can't look at me without sadness, guilt or contempt. He makes up for it by wanting to spend with kids. I find this difficult to take but try and keep my head up. I take it one day at a time. Slowly healing.
Jul 18 - Sept 18 - starts to treat me like a person and not an alien to be avoided. Still no indication that he wants to come home.
Oct 18 - Find out he is dating. Throw a massively undignified hissy fit. Might as well have stuck a sticker on my head saying Plan B. I double down on Db'g.

Now - he moves between being strangely kind (cleans my car, offers to give me lifts, offers to fix things around the house) and weird passive aggressive comments (mostly when he is suspicious of what I have been up to). I see him more often than a did before he left - though this is always to do with the children. It is never to see just me. I am not sure what the deal is with OW (I don't even think I can call her that - she was/is a distraction from his loneliness) as if he is still seeing her, it is very rare and definitely always at his beck and call.

So, a year on, and I have finally set a boundary. I sent an email earlier telling him he needs to have the girls more overnight because the current arrangement is not working for me. No response as yet. But three pics of sneakers via text and a question re which ones I'd prefer. Also, a missed call this evening (I was out having a rink with friends) which I responded to with a "Missed your call. Was it important?". He replied it was about D9's glasses, and he has just gone away and ordered them anyway, with a price. I assume he wants me to pay half. Surely that sort of thing can be dealt with via text !!!.

Where am I now. I still love him and want to R though not in the desperate way I once did. There is no talk of a D or even formalizing our S. He is still seems as confused as when he left but now seems full of guilt and not sure how to get off his current path (or even if he wants to). I am better. I have realized my worth and am getting on with my life but I am still attached to him - but am doing a good job of pretending not to be. I have a life of sorts separate to him with new friends and old ones. I am happy most of the time. I have a job I mostly like and feel appreciated and valued in and I am in the best shape of my life. I am not ready for another relationship, nor am I looking for one. But I am enjoying the company of friends (some of whom are men).

Not quite a summary, sorry.

B - thanks for the response. He still cares and yes he still thinks about me. It comes to naught though. He has not said or done anything that indicates he wants to R. Picking some trainers for me (or sorting out my tires - which he also did today) does not a reconciliation make.

You are also right re the conflict avoidance. He will not respond. He has dropped the girls off, we talked for about half an hour (mostly about D9's glasses) and now he has gone to take our dog for a walk. There was an uncomfortable moment when I said I am getting his brokers exGF to watch the children Thursday night and he said "I don't agree with that - can't you sort our nights out for the nights I have the girls". I told him not everyone's life revolves around his schedule.

A couple of months after BD, he went to China for a week for an interview. I only found out because I saw the website on my laptop (I looked at the history). When I confronted him he said he was "exploring options". He was so unhappy and desperate to escape his life, he was willing to explore work options on the other side of the world. He never told me how it went or indeed anything at all about his trip. As he is not working in China, I assume he decided that a contract which meant that he would be away from the children for four weeks at a time was probably not something he wanted to pursue. A quick google search told me that this was all that was on offer. He went there for a week to find out the same thing. Anyway. whilst he was away I wrote him a lengthy email saying how I felt, how much I still loved him, and how I was willing to let him go if that was what he wanted but that the door would still be open. I included some intimate details in there as well - nothing graphic, but it was mentioned in the sense of how I felt. I sent it to his sister (we were still talking then) because I needed someone to tell me if it was too much. She said, well, it tells him how you feel, so I sent it. He has never responded or mentioned it other than to tell me that he was upset that I had showed it to his sister. I bared my soul and all he could say was "don't send stuff like that to my sister". So, if he couldn't respond to that, I doubt he will respond to an email talking about logistical practicalities.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

As he is not working in China, I assume he decided that a contract which meant that he would be away from the children for four weeks at a time was probably not something he wanted to pursue.

This could be true, but it could have nothing to do with the kids. He might need to convince himself that he still *could* do something so wild (ie out of character). That things aren't off the table in his life. It might be less about what Should he do and more about considering what Could he do. Maybe just a daydream and he needed the interview to feed his soul.

Originally Posted by "FlySolo"

He has never responded or mentioned it other than to tell me that he was upset that I had showed it to his sister. I bared my soul and all he could say was "don't send stuff like that to my sister". So, if he couldn't respond to that, I doubt he will respond to an email talking about logistical practicalities.

I get that he wouldn't want his personal life shared with his sis.That's a touchy subject for anyone at any point in a R. Not only was he feeling judged by you (pursuit) but also now by his own family. The logistical email may prove difficult, but ultimately he may respond because it's a different kind of pressure. It doesn't make him look bad, just makes him need to make some choices.

Thanks Yail - his sister and I were very close. Over the years, she became my go to when I needed to moan about her brother. But the longer this has gone, the more uncomfortable it has been for her. She does not like what he is doing, but he is still her brother. So, mixture of embarrassment and loyalty has meant that our comms are now limited to pleasantries and pictures of our kids. I miss her, but I understand.

At the time he went to China he was looking for am out that allowed him to save face, i.e. escape without actually escaping. He would work there for four weeks and then come home for two weeks and no-one would be the wiser. He could have his freedom and his family. There were other options he explored, he could MO (into the flat behind our house) and not tell anyone (strangely, this one was his sisters idea - which I said No to). Like DjV's H, the need to escape was overwhelming but he wasn't yet willing to cut the rope.

I do shake my head in astonishment when I see these things drag out for over a year... while I will be divorced less than four months from BD. FS, you said that you envy my sitch, but I envy your sitch. At least, I would have felt like I had a fighting chance. I've mostly seen a cold and distant STBXW. (She's nice at times but only when it suits her.)

Originally Posted by FlySolo

the need to escape was overwhelming but he wasn't yet willing to cut the rope.

I think this is where my H is at. He even mused yesterday that an option may be to go on as we are indefinitely. Uh, no. Not happening. Makes me wonder if he is hoping I'll put an end to things (i.e. file), so he can avoid the difficult stuff like he did with telling the kids. Take the easy way out and void conflict. Coward. He doesn't realize he's dealing with an emerging new ME, and I won't put up with it!

Harvey - you keep talking like your M is over. D is only a piece of paper. Hope is gone when you let go. Month four in my sitch and month four in your sitch are no different except H was still living at home, and you are getting a D. Their actual feelings and behavior to us was actually the same. H was cold and distant (he was rarely nice). Sure he lived in the house, but if it was acceptable for a grown man to growl threateningly at me, he would have done so. Why didn't he go for a D - I don't know. The cynical side of me says it is because we have to be separated two years for a no fault divorce. The side that still holds on to hope hopes it is because he genuinely did not, and does not, know what he wants.

Grace - I am glad to hear you are not letting your H get away with that ...

Journaling

Today has been tough. I find myself being a little more open to the idea of moving on, and it scares me. It scares me because I know it would be easy and I know I would be doing it because I am lonely. I moved jobs in Jan and there is a guy I have caught looking at me from time to time. Not in an obvious leachy way, but kind of shy, so that when I catch him, he looks away. I've never given it much mind. Female working in predominantly male offices, I have caught people looking at me before. Anyway, he has been coming to talk to me randomly a lot the last few weeks (it was the chap who sits next to me who first noticed) and today, after he came over to discuss some mundane detail that could have been resolved over email, I actually considered the possibility, not of a relationship per se, but something a little more drunken (not sure how else to describe it). Today, I considered the what if ... what if I just turned it up a little, held his eye for a little longer, smiled a little brighter. And then I realized I have been doing this subconsciously.

I know that I still love him but I am definitely lonely and my body language is no longer that of a woman devoted to her M. I guess this is the confusion he must have felt before he ventured into the world of dating. For the record ... I am not venturing into that world yet. I was just observing my own behavior today and noting the possibility that I am starting to move on.

FS,
I think you are in a great but critical spot. Your body language has changed, you are letting go more and more, you are catching the eye of the men in the office and doing some innocent flirting. Ultimately that is the main goal of all of this is it not? It may not matter to you at this point but if other men are noticing I would be willing to bet H is as well. If H isn't taking notice then recognize that others are because you are a desirable women and will have an amazing relationship and all the love you deserve one day.

I second what Ryan said FS. I think this is a good thing. I sure wished I worked in an office like yours...lol. Even if you don�t end up going on a date, even just the interest is a great reminder that you are not dead. Your H is not the only person on the planet with whom you can find love. You are scared to let go of....? I ask that question not because I think there is an answer necessarily. Believe me, I know that fear all to well. REALLY understanding that letting go is the best way to hang on...to ourselves...is the HARDEST concept to grasp, isn�t it? You don�t have to actively try to let go anymore, I think, for you, it will just happen. You will look back and realize you are nowhere near where you were. If there is room in your life for H or not, it will not matter. What will matter is that you will have YOU back. And if he decides he wants you back then he is going to have to man up and work for it. (((HUGS)))

I woke up early this morning and I sat outside in the dark and I cried. Not massive sobs, just some quiet tears. I am still crying now. This, whatever it is, is so very very hard.

I realized this morning something that has been coming on for a while. I am letting go. Not the reationary "I am done" that I have seen here so often, and myself declared in the heat of the moment when he was still living here or on the odd occasion since he MO. A quieter letting go.

I want him to come home but, after a year, I am just tired, and I am oh so very lonely. It is not that I want another R, I just want someone to want me, to hold me and tell me that I am beautiful. This new pain is different. It is not that I miss him (which I do) but I know now that I also miss just being with someone. This new pain is not to do with him, it is to do with me.

And then I start forecasting. How would a new even R work? What if it moved beyond casual and he/I wanted to be part of my family life ? Does that mean this will be our last Christmas as a family ? What will my children think ?

This is different from before when my forecasting was about him moving on ... right now, he has his personal life (with or without dating) which has nothing to do with the family, and his family life which has nothing to do with his personal life. What happens when his two lives merge?

All fruitless thoughts. But they were there nevertheless this morning and I am feeling a sadness I have not felt for a while.

I don't know. Maybe the loneliness is fleeting and tomorrow I will regain my resolve.

Awww... massive (((HUGS))) to you FS. You are so insightful into your own experience. I learn so much from you. I have been without that feeling of someone wanting me for over four years now...I hadn�t really realized that before because I was so focused on my H and his health and anytime I went down that road, I would get mad at myself for being so selfish. How incredibly ironic is that?

Yes...the pain is to do with you and I do believe that recognition of that is what happens in this process of letting go. You deserve all of those things that you are missing. When I think about the concept of having an R with someone else, the questions about the kids are foremost on my mind and of course they are on yours as well. You put your children first as do I. Sadly...I doubt our H�s even think about that. Whatever happens, the magic solution is �they will adjust�. I�m going to punch the next person who says that to me. They shouldn�t have to adjust.

That Christmas question is a tough one. For me, I am pretty sure we already had our last family Christmas. My sister and her H always have Christmas dinner with us so even if my H wanted to be there, he would not come. He still cannot face anyone who knows what he has done. That would take courage and strength of character... and those traits are currently in short supply.

Give yourself permission to feel sad right now. This, too, shall pass.

Hugs to you FS. Must be the week for it I think so I know exactly how you feel. I pride myself on keeping my emotions in check at work but yesterday a good friend asked how I was and the tears started. For at least an hour.

On a practical level we know we'll be okay but some days we wonder if we will have the emotional strength to be alone. I think you are doing all you can to prepare for that but allow yourself to know that there will be doubts and sadness along the way.

I think I know what you mean; I don't think I'm grieving for him per se, but for a 'partnership' And I suppose if the marriage was making him so unhappy (rather than he got caught out with a bit on the side) then it took tremendous courage from him to alter the status quo. I regret that he didn't tell me about it before getting involved with someone else.

Maybe we both have to dig deep and come to some self understanding as to why we feel we need a significant other to feel loved and complete. Because that is what we are used to?? In which case we can only give ourselves time (for us now, not them) and let this process happen.

My friend advised to let the feelings happen and see it as a positive sign of healing rather than weakness. We have pulled the band aid off a gaping wound and at the moment it stings like hell.

He picked us up and dropped me off at the station (again) this morning. There has been some works going on at the station the last few months and he has been unable to drive in all the way to drop me off (his car is too big to turn the corners). Last week I mentioned to him that the works had finished and he should be OK to go into the carpark again. He said Ok, then dropped me off out the back as normal. This morning he turned to go into the station carpark, and when I mentioned it he said "they've widened the roads".

Between last week and this week he has dropped someone off at the station. I felt a weird surge of anxiety. A little tinge of jealousy, but I kept it in. Smiled, and said thank you when I got out of the car. An OW (may be a different one) is still in the picture.

I think I am overthinking it. I just need to let it be. The anxiety was fleeting. The jealousy was fleeting. I guess that is how he feels whenever I say "I am out tonight" and don't tell him where or with whom. The way he looks away but doesn't say anything. On some level we are still H and W (so still feel a little ownership over one another) and on so many levels we are so far away from that now.

journaling ...

I am feeling better after my little emotional wobbly this morning. It ws a realisation that I have let go a little (not fully) and I think it hit me hard. This entry will be about today's GALing.

I was shaken by the tears this morning so I (I know, I know) saw a psychic at lunch. You can find most anything in London if you have an hour on a train and a smart phone. If nothing else it reassured me, much as you all do here, that I am on the right path for me. Other than that work was uneventful ... work saved me post BD. It was the only thing I had that made me feel valued. It was a good distraction. Today, and pretty much all days for a while now, it has been .... fun. Yes, it is high pressured, there is a lot of FFS being said and stand-offs in meetings, but there is also a lot of banter and a lot of laughter. As H has the girls tonight, I had a few drink with an ex-colleague and then went and had a facial. My skin feels great. My head, slightly less great.

The ex-colleague sat next to me at my last company when BD happened. He saw it all unfold and the shattered mess I was at the time. Tonight it was great to spend two hours with him again laughing about H's antics ("you CAN'T go on holiday without the children", "are you going out AGAIN" and that damn stupid camera). I so love that I can laugh at H's idiocy, his double standards and his attempts to assert control over me.

The theme of today's entry is me before him.

I went to an industry celebration thing last night - about 120 people from different companies all working on the project. I had a really good time -- too good maybe. I didn't do anything stupid but, for a few hours I was the girl I was before I met him. I danced, I flirted and I laughed. I flirted a little with the guy who has shown an interest I mentioned in a previous post. He is not "the one". But it was nice. The 'possibility' of something happening, even though I know deep down I would not have taken it further, because "something" is not actually possible for me - he is 28 years old for starters.

But it was nice. It was nice being "me before him" again, even if only for a short time.

And this morning, I sat in the garden again and I cried. I cried because I crossed a line. I cried because last night I did not feel married. I let someone put their arms around me who is not my H. I let someone hold my hand. I let someone dance with me in a way that I do not dance with other people. I wonder if this is how H feels after he has spent the night with someone else. If he ever sits in his flat and cries because the person he was with is not me.

Don�t be too harsh on yourself FS. You have not crossed anything but in your mind. And it�s ok to feel that way. You have chosen the road of honorability and comitment. You must let him go girl, go on with your life. Your H is walking his own road and you can�t be there waiting for signals. I know it�s hard FS but go on living the present time. Be there for the girls and go on with GAL.

Keep DB, stay strong!

((((((((((((FS))))))))))))

Originally Posted by FlySolo

It was nice being "me before him" again, even if only for a short time.

And this morning, I sat in the garden again and I cried. I cried because I crossed a line. I cried because last night I did not feel married.

It sounds like you�re feeling guilty, like you did something �bad� that violated your vows, but also felt good. I imagine that�s a confusing feeling, and think it�s what any spouse feels the first time they cross a line.

Maybe this is what detachment looks and feels like. Maybe this is what finally starts to make him wonder if he�s losing you. Maybe this is what, in the end, will make you MORE married? You never know.

Neff - I know what you say is true. I am trying to live in the present and I am GAL'g and it is getting easier. Its the fact that it is getting easier is where the sadness is coming from. I will carry on as I have been. I do not know where my path will take me, but I am putting one step in front of the other and one day I know I will be OK.

Burned - I did not feel bad. In fact, a part from the fact that the general behavior was beneath me - I leaned into him and he put his arms around me from behind and I was able to um, feel him behind me - it did not feel like I had violated my vows. I did not feel married and I was not thinking about my H at all. I was thinking how nice it was to be with someone who so obviously also wanted to be with me. Even if it was purely a physical connection and it was the effect of having way too much to drink.

Re is this what will finally make him wonder if he is losing me. He does not know - we talk about the girls - never about us. I think he suspects I am changing. Maybe if they can 'smell' we are still attached, they can also 'smell' when we are moving on? If he does suspect, I do not know how he feels about it.

A colleague I use to work with but now works in a different department commented that he saw me walk past the other day and he said I was walking tall with my head high and a swing in my step and he thought to himself "she's going to be fine". If he can see it from afar, maybe my H can too.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

Maybe if they can 'smell' we are still attached, they can also 'smell' when we are moving on? If he does suspect, I do not know how he feels about it.

I was walking tall with my head high and a swing in my step and he thought to himself "she's going to be fine". If he can see it from afar, maybe my H can too.

Thats precisely what I have been led to believe. Consider that in light of what you said yesterday or the day before about how your subtle body language cues send a signal that you don�t feel married. I wonder if THAT is when it finally hits them, on a much deeper, emotional level.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

A colleague I use to work with but now works in a different department commented that he saw me walk past the other day and he said I was walking tall with my head high and a swing in my step and he thought to himself "she's going to be fine". If he can see it from afar, maybe my H can too.

Yes, and you don�t sit waiting for him. You watch him from above indeed. It�s his loss.

I know what you mean about your feelings, the sadness of detaching. But you need to live in the present, keep hope somewhere inside but expectations controlled.

You are the role model for Ds, be proud of who you are, the lighthouse!

Thank you both. It is strange how one can feel so connected to strangers on the internet. I would have gotten to here on my own, I would have rebuilt, but it would have taken me a lot longer.

I am not there (wherever that is) yet. But I am getting closer.

Continue detaching, FS. I think that is the final step for you. You are doing really well otherwise. It really is time to let him go and be okay if there is no R.

I think it goes back to my original question, why have hope? It can get us through the early moments, but it seems to keep people stuck. I'm not saying not to have hope, but you really need to be okay with no R.

Ah FS... it is such a road, isn�t it? I pray for detachment...and I also fear it. I�m not sure detachment and hope can co-exist and that is what I fear most. How do I let go of my H and still hang on to some hope? Does letting go of hope mean letting go of love? I know people say that you can detach with love. I think that is the goal. To have love but not to have hope. Seems simple when you write it. So difficult to do. (((FS)))

Thanks guys for your support. I always knew I think that detachment would eventually be organic - it would just happen after months of being forced, but I had not expected it to hurt. I am in now way saying I am there yet, or that I have given up hope (I don�t think I ever will) but I do not care anymore about the things he says or does. Not strictly true - I do think about things but only in terms of logistics and practicalities. have not been kept up at night going around the tunnels wondering who he is with or what he is doing.

I have been reading DjVs thread and I see so much of me in her words. Me immediately after he MO. I read her pain, her grief and her fear and DjV I just want to say �you will be fine because I am fine and you are me�. You are kind and smart and strong and wonderful. You just need to remember. I so much wish I could give you a hug and say thank you for being you.

Journaling

I am at netball with H and my kids. It is his day today but I said I wanted to come watch. However, when he can over to pick us up it was raining and I said instead of going together I would take D9 in when her game starts and that way he could take D12 home. The girls were playing at different times. He got a bit upset and said something about parking and better with one car. In interest of not getting into an argument, I said ok. So, sat with D9 in cafe whilst D12 played and now sitting with D12 whilst D9 plays. He seems to want to spend time with me but doesn�t know how to say it so uses kids as an excuse. This afternoon he is getting the Christmas decorations out and we are putting the tree etc up together. I asked him to get them out then said I could either put them out this afternoon whilst he has the girls or they could stay and do it together. And Ovrr if you are reading this - yes I recognise this is weird - Cake eating for both of us masquerading as wanting to �keep things normal� for the kids. I know, if things don�t work out this will be the last Christmas together in this house. I am not saying that with sadness - just a fact.

D9 is also suffering from tummy upsets now. I am not sure if this is mimicking D12 or is something that is real. I suspect a bit of both. H now wants us to limit sweets and chocolates as he thinks it is their diet. FFS !!! Take responsibility.

After putting the tree out he is taking them over to his mums and then having them overnight. I will be invited to his mums but might bail today. It is getting increasingly uncomfortable with his family - like I said before. They are mostly embarrassed by what�s happened and don�t really know what to say. His mum thinks our relationship is weird - you don�t act like your separated, he still talks about you like you�re together - and now doesn�t know how to act around us. But I also know that if I stay away too long then that just makes it weirder when we do see each other. This is what happened with his sister and it�s been so long since we saw each other that we can�t just call each other now and see how the other one is doing. I don�t want that to happen between me and his mum - though it is happening anyway. She never calls me to arrange days with the children anymore.

Still no response on email asking him to have the children more often !!!

Keep detaching FS. Do not enter into the pull-push dynamic. Keep your eyes on the DB road.

Awww FS... I wish I could give you a hug and thank you for being you too. I hope very much to be where you are one of these days. I am still struggling to be around my H. I still get a bit of a nervous feeling around him that affects me and I�m sure he sees it. So he tries not to be around me if he can help it. Unlike your H who seems to want to be around you as much as he can be without having to move back in. I don�t think the grass is greener where he is now and he is starting to realize it. I still stand by what I said before... I still think he is one of the ones who is going to want to come back home. I also think that the more you detach and do your own thing, the more he is going to feel that. Right now he is reasonably sure you are still Plan B but doubts are starting to creep in. Keep doing what you are doing and DB for you. You will get there, I have no doubt. (((FS)))

Thanks Neff - I have now googled pull-push dynamics

and whilst I do not think either my H or I are being overly affectionate with one another (push) I get your observation. I will try not to swing between one and the other (offering to spend time with them and then pulling back). It is hard. I have always read the temperature in the room and adjust my behavior accordingly. In the months pre BD and until about 3 months ago, this meant adjusting my behavior to what was least likely to set him off. Now, it sometimes means doing what will get a rise out of him - I am coming to netball. I am not coming to netball etc. It is all game playing and I need to watch out for it.

DV (that seems to be the accepted shortening here) - I am so glad I found you (well, obvs. not under these circumstances). I want to see you get stronger and realise the wonderful person you are. You have helped countless people here.

I decided against going to his mums. Didn't get invited tbh but am still feeling pretty rotten from Thursday nights antics and would not have been good company for anyone. In fact, when we got back from netball I said that I was going to lay down for an hour as I had a headache. It is his day to have them, so I figured I could do that. I told him to get the Christmas decorations out and that I would help. When I got up the decs were out, but I couldn't muster the energy to put them out so said I would do it with the girls tomorrow afternoon (when I have them). He seemed OK with this but did not invite me to his mums. They stayed for about four hours and eventually I said "hun, don't you have to go". I know I shouldn't have called him "hun" but it just came out (weakness) and I wasn't kicking him out - it was just that they were going to be late. There was no thought in it whatsoever. Well, they got up to go, I helped the kids get ready, waved them goodbye, told my H to have a nice time, and then shut the door.

So, am home watching Netflix and reading threads on the forums. I am OK. Not pining for my family and not trying to fill the void of them not being here.

There were a couple of weird moments today. Some passive-aggressive controlling comments, some strangely "couply" moments and then just sitting on the sofa watching cartoons with the girls and scrolling on his phone (FB and news from what I could tell and the odd text). Nope - I wasn't snooping. He showed some posts to D12 and he was on WhatsApp when I walked past. Where he has always been super secretive about his phone (it never left his side) he know leaves it face up on the side.

Journal entry ...

Sleepless night last night. Lots of weird dreams. Being blindfolded in a small boat, not knowing where I'm going, climbing a mountain and knowing I have to get somewhere but not knowing where, and then being held by a co-worker and being told that things will be OK. Doesn't take a lot to work out that my dreams are reflecting my confusion about where I am headed, but that I am heading there anyway.

Girls with my H last night and wasn't due to see them until lunch (I was being picked up for football) so decided to go into town for brunch and then get my nails done. Was running late back (old anxiety rising re the "I told you I would be here at 12. Why aren't you ready?") but luckily beat them back. H is always late for everything (and never apologies) but god forbid I ever be late. When they got here, I said I might give footie a miss and keep D9 with me. I actually like going to footie but thought that D9 might appreciate not sitting in the cold for 2 hours watching her sister play. Got that "look" and stupidly relented. There were road diversions on the way and we ended up getting lost. He asked me to look up the address so he could put it into the satnav and I wasn't fast enough so he whispered (loudly) "Do I have to do everything" and he found it on his phone and put it into the satnav. I looked out the window.

Got there and took D9 to the pub to sit in the warm whilst D12's team warmed up. When I came out I gave him the coffee I had gotten him (politeness), he said thank you, and I went and stood by one of the other dads. We were chatting and H came and stood by me. He commented on and off during the game (this is new - up until recently, he avoided talking to me at the games). When we got back the house, he stopped for about 15 mins (I was doing the washing so didn't really talk to him) and then called out "I'm going FS" so I came out and said goodbye. He felt the need to tell me that he is going to watch the Liverpool game and will be back in the morning to pick us.

The only thing that threw me today was that he had put his flat into his satnav as "home". I guess a part of me still thinks of this as his home. He turned it off as soon as he saw I had noticed. It is funny the little things that can still throw me. I don't care anymore what he does when he is not with me. But the fact that he had put his flat into a satnav and called it home hurt.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

The only thing that threw me today was that he had put his flat into his satnav as "home". I guess a part of me still thinks of this as his home.

This made me a little sad. We spend our entire married lives trying to build a home for our family, and they seem to so easily abandon it. Makes me wonder what my H thinks about his furnished apartment. I hope he's unhappy there. Just the little part of me that hopes he suffers alone. Terrible thoughts, and I usually pray about it when I have them. I don't want hurtful things to creep into me. I don't want to be that person. 90% of the time I'm not. I want H to be happy as I don't think he has for many, many years. Maybe he hasn't been for most of his entire life. But the black thoughts creep in from time to time.

I feel the same way Grace. Most of the time I hope he is better, but some of the time I hope he is suffering alone too. Did some Christmas shopping today. It was tough. My heart really isn�t in it this year. Just want to hit the fast forward button and get it over with. I�m also having a New Year�s party. Heart is also not that in it but...it is better than sitting around wondering what my H is doing and who he is kissing at midnight. Funny... we spent last New Year�s Eve together in Mexico but I�m pretty sure he wasn�t home for two or three New Year�s before that. I thought he was getting medical treatment. I will never know what he was really doing. Probably at a party of friends he never introduced to me. Wow. He really was not a good husband. He also missed a couple of Christmases and Christmas Eves. I spent the latter with his family members. So I guess I shouldn�t be too upset about this year. It is what I am used to.

FS... It struck me reading your post that your H is really enjoying the best of both worlds. I totally get it because I would probably be okay if my H wanted to hang out with me and the kids more too. But still... he is leading the single life AND he is leading the married life. I think my H has likely changed his address for some things as he isn�t getting much mail here these days. I guess it is practical. Still... one more step... (((HUGS)))

DV - yes, he very much is getting to enjoy the best of both worlds. I am not as motivated to spend time with him as I was, it is more the children now, and I think he knows. He has them 4 nights this month and I know there is no way he is away for work 27 nights. He is seeing them a lot during the days (pretty much every sat and Sunday) and at least three weekdays but he is definitely leaving his nights free. Some of that I suspect is to stop me from going out but some of it is so he can go out. Control and selfishness. It will stop in the new year. Though I know he will retailiate by �taking some of the privileges� away like lifts and family time. He is a [censored] that way. It may even backfire and I usu us closer to D. I am (for tonight) at peace with this.

Grace - that is exactly why it hurt. This beautiful home he wanted and I paid for he has just thrown away for a bachelor pad in the middle of town. A bachelor pad with fairy stickers on the wall in the living room and every surface covered in photos of his children. He really does not know what he wants.

I�ve been kept awake by some of the things he said today. The satnav thing and the constant nagging about our dog. He also insinuated that he he kids aren�t bathing enough. They miss the odd day due to clubs and homework but that has always been the case. Yesterday he said when he left �can you make sure you walk [the dog]� (I didn�t) and I told him so today when he asked. I then got you never walk her, she�s your dog too. I leave before it gets light normally and do t get back until it�s dark and yesterday I was unwell. But I am beyond defending myself now so just let him have his little hissy then walked away. He is always asking if one nanny walks her (sometimes) and I just want to say to him �she�s my nanny and you don�t get a say in what she does). The using my childhood against me is also getting me riled up and I have been going through the 5 things I should have said instead of what I did say which was nothing. I guess if I was looking for patterns this was how he behaved during our marriage. It got extreme before he MO then he started 180�g. Now it is starting to creep back in. At first he same time as I am starting to detach properly. Honestly I am detaching (despite this lengthy post) but this guess it is having the opposite effect. Or perhaps this is my real H and I am finally seeing him more clearly. I don�t know. Right now I don�t like him very much.

I have put the watch he bought me for our 10 year anniversary back on. I know what message it sends, but honestly, I love this watch. When I took it off it was because I couldn�t bare to wear it. F**k that. It doesn�t hurt anymore.

Hi (FS),

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I�ve been kept awake by some of the things he said today. The satnav thing and the constant nagging about our dog. He also insinuated that he he kids aren�t bathing enough. They miss the odd day due to clubs and homework but that has always been the case.

Last night my older S10 was with me while W and S6 were at BIL for a sleepover. S10 was supposed to take a shower last night. Told him a couple times, didn't re-enforce. S didn't want to shower, that's on his stinky butt. W comes home and sees his matted hair and asks him if he's showered and he looks at me. I go whoa there buddy, that's on you. She said something like he's going to start getting pimples. I said and this is all the more reason why he needs to be doing this for himself. We do not need to keep telling him what he alrdy knows he needs to do. I told her he needs to start being accountable for his actions.

(So later as she left the room I told him boy go get your stanky butt in the shower.)

Originally Posted by FlySolo

F**k that. It doesnt hurt anymore.

LOL @ this.

I don't feel sad anymore, but � August was BD, my 14th Anni was in Oct. This was before I found DB. I bought my W a nice diamond necklace because it was our Anni and I made a scrapbook(from the UP movie, there's adventure out there) of our lives, with pix from when we met as kids, to our wedding, the births of our 2 boys, our home we're in now being built, to trips and pictures of our families and the fun life we had. There was a note I left with the rest of the pages in the scrapbook empty in hopes we could continue filling it one day...

I remember placing the items on the bed for her to find later. She eventually told me thank you in a dull tone. I don't even remember if we said happy anniversary or texted, but all I could remember is she said, you can not make me feel guilty for this. Never wore the necklace, I didn't push. The book is laid out in a pile of clothes as she is living out of a suitcase in the other room.

FS... sounds like you are definitely starting to see things in a different light. Personally...I am really hoping to get to that point soon. I think it is fine to wear your watch. If you love it, who cares that he gave it to you. All that nitpicking about your dog and the girls...it�s just sour grapes. He feels like he is losing you and he�s trying to provoke you. I think you are doing a great job not taking the bait. Keep it up.

Originally Posted by Adam04

S didn't want to shower, that's on his stinky butt. W comes home and sees his matted hair and asks him if he's showered and he looks at me ... I said and this is all the more reason why he needs to be doing this for himself. We do not need to keep telling him what he alrdy knows he needs to do. I told her he needs to start being accountable for his actions. (So later as she left the room I told him boy go get your stanky butt in the shower.)

I like this. I think I will try it next time he has a go about something D12's lost or homework that's not been prepared. I have in the past gotten defensive .... "we didn't have time" ... "I asked her to do it". But your way sounds much controlled. And you're right. They are old enough to do things for themselves.

Originally Posted by Adam04

I remember placing the items on the bed for her to find later. She eventually told me thank you in a dull tone. I don't even remember if we said happy anniversary or texted, but all I could remember is she said, you can not make me feel guilty for this. Never wore the necklace, I didn't push. The book is laid out in a pile of clothes as she is living out of a suitcase in the other room.

We all do this to some degree. I think it is a response to the 'rewriting history' thing they do. We want to show them that it wasn't what they remembered, there were some good times, there was real love. But they don't want to listen. They turn it against us ... "don't make me feel guilty". I never went so far as to make a scrap book, but during MC I tried to remind him of things we'd done together. I'd say "remember when we went to X" and he'd go "yeah, you had your head in a book the whole time". They don't want to listen to any narrative which doesn't validate what they've already decided in their heads. FYI - about a month after he'd MO I refused to let him drive me home after a day out. When we got back, I apologized for being childish. He sat there and took it. I told him I was just really hurt and didn't know how to act around him. He sat there and took it. I asked him why he had said all those horrible things during MC and he said "because I needed to validate what I was feeling". So on some level they know what they're doing. They just can't help it. We don't need to remind them. Also, I think that was one of the few times he was honest with me. I think, after a month of living on his own what he had done was finally starting to hit him. It didn't change anything. Too much momentum.

He has just left with the girls. I opened the door and the first thing he said was "Are they ready?". He did mention that the decorations looked nice (I put them up yesterday). He said "You've done a good job" and I said "thanks". There are Christmas pictures I put up of us every year. I left them in one of the boxes. He saw them and didn't say anything.

So much left unsaid.

Your post really struck a chord with me FS. The rewriting history...it is a big part of it. And also there being too much momentum. That is ultimately what pushed my H out the door. He felt like he had done the hard part (leaving) and that he needed to push forward regardless of any contradictory feelings he might have been having. He has been contemplating this for so long and shutting down his heart, he could not imagine ever feeling any different. So...here we are. Yes...lots unsaid. But also pointless to say it in some ways. I still think this is not over for you and him. But I also know that you need to continue on your forced journey just like I do. It s#cks. Things could so easily be different. But they aren�t and this is our reality. Stay strong. You are doing great!! (((FS)))

I don't even know where to start tonight. D12 left her footie kit at home and had a game after school so MIL had to go pick it up and drop it off at the school. As she was already in town she offered to pick up the girls from school (so I didn't have to rush back from work).

When I got in we were all sitting in the kitchen and MIL was joking around with D12 and said "Oh, that Daddy is useless". D12 then giggled and said "That's what Daddy says about Mummy". Red flag to a bull. I sat there for a while staring into my coffee, seething, then sent him the following text:

M: "H - The girls have just told me that you refer to me as useless in front of them. I appreciate that you have zero respect for me but that doesn't mean you should teach the children the same. I make an effort to make sure that they children are always excited to see you and expect you to behave the same. Please don't do it again".

H: "I'm sorry. I've said it once & that was said in the context of packing stuff for them. Hardly a lack of respect but I will be more careful in the future".

M: "It seems the girls disagree with you. You show me the same level of disrespect in front of them even when I a am there. I have come to accept that you have zero respect for me, but please try to keep it in check when the girls are present"

H: "And what exactly do they say because I don't know what/when they're referring to".

M: "Doesn't matter. They don't know I've said anything to you so would appreciate you not upsetting them. Just keep your temper in check in the future when they are present".

So, is that me getting my b@lls back or is that me scoring a home goal.

DV - I sit here and think why are we waiting for these people. We deserve so much better.

Last text ...

H: "I'm sorry, I realize I shouldn't say stuff like that in front of them so will make sure it doesn't happen again. Please don't think I curse about you constantly because that's not the case, I know you're a good mum".

I am not responding.

Ugh. We really do deserve better FS. I�m not sure if I am waiting or not. I know that I am grieving and I�ve come to realize that no matter how hard I work at it, there is not short cut to getting past it. It took my H over four years. Why should I expect to be past it in two and a half months? Thirteen years is a long time to be with someone and for you it was longer. That just doesn�t go away overnight. Give yourself a break. Leave him to his monkeys. (((HUGS)))

DV6 and FS,

You do deserve better, and it will come.

DV6, I've been with my W for 24 years, over half of my life. We are the last couple from our childhood friends. My old friends have found their new lives, with their new partners and they are truly happy for it. Life goes on.

When W and I used to date, during our rough patches we would ask if we should split or keep up the madness. We always told each other that the relationship, the other person, was worth putting in the work. We lost that focus when we got married and had kids. The kids became our world. I lost focus of her and myself. We both need to walk through fire to be reborn. I'd like to think the new person she becomes would be worth waiting for.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

Im not sure if I am waiting or not.

I like to think of it this way. I am not waiting and I am not actively trying to move on. I am just being. Living in the moment without thinking in terms of 'will this bring him back' or 'I need to start moving on'. Some days I miss the hell out of him. Some days, I am so glad I no longer have to worry about what mood he is going to be in. One day I will just cease to measure my actions in terms of the impact it has on him. Until them, one foot in front of the other. I no longer measure my happiness in terms of his happiness.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I know that I am grieving and Ive come to realize that no matter how hard I work at it, there is not short cut to getting past it. It took my H over four years. Why should I expect to be past it in two and a half months? Thirteen years is a long time to be with someone and for you it was longer. That just doesnt go away overnight.

Nope - there is no shortcut. The tears come less frequently though and there are far fewer tunnels to go running down. You start to care less about things. I don't worry about where he is, who he is with or what he is doing. It really doesn't bother me anymore. I think this is because I know he is broken and no matter how much he tries to fix himself with external distractions, he can't even begin to be fixed until he looks inside himself. Until he does this, there is no hope for an R with me or with anyone else. He is not running from me (though I too need fixing), he is running from himself. When and if that ever happens, it may be too late for us as I am far further in the 'fixing' department then he is ... and I might just have outgrown him.

Your H wasn't grieving for those four years, he was spending that time (maybe unconsciously) fantasizing about his great escape. In order to grieve something, it has to a) be gone and b) you have to see value in it. In that sense, his grieving process started at the same time as yours except his is different - it is a mixture of grief, guilt and, also not yet fully realizing the value in what he has thrown away.

Originally Posted by Adam04

We always told each other that the relationship, the other person, was worth putting in the work. We lost that focus when we got married and had kids. The kids became our world. I lost focus of her and myself. We both need to walk through fire to be reborn. I'd like to think the new person she becomes would be worth waiting for.

There is, I believe an unspoken pact between parents that they will sacrifice a bit of themselves for the betterment of their children until such a time as the children no longer need them in that way. So, holidays become about the children (lots of trips to Disneyland), homes move outside town where there are larger gardens and better schools. The drunken nights out become few and far between and dinner parties stop because you can't have a dinner party with children. Unfortunately, for some of us here, our S were not aware of this pact. On some level I knew he wasn't buying into this, and I resented him for it. He knew I resented him, felt guilty, and then resented me for making him feel guilty. Meanwhile, neither of us said anything. I guess the unspoken part of the pact should have been a little more spoken.

Journaling -

Really good day today. Nothing major happened. Laughed a lot at work. Met a girlfriend for lunch. She laughed when she saw me and said 'who have you been sh@gging' - I told her no-one. I was just finally finding me again. Mentioned that I no longer felt married and she said I hadn't been married for 14 months. That hurt. Other people's measure of how long it should take one to move on. She is also fairly hard lined about boundaries and thinks that I should sell the house and give him his half -- until we cut as many of our ties as possible neither one of us can move on. She thinks it is unhealthy how 'attached' we both still are to one another. I love her but her other half left her suddenly after 11 years and she had moved on (to the man she later married) after 6 months. She is happy and moving on so quickly was right for her.

I just don't think I am like that.

Was offered two jobs today (via industry contacts). One I ran into at the party Thursday night who then emailed me Friday to ask if I'd consider it. I met him for coffee today and they offered me the job (for less money but closer to home), the other is for the same company I am with now, but they want me to take on another role (more money and better role, but with some travel). Neither need an answer until the new year.

3 months ago I would have jumped at the one closer to home but I am building a life in London. There is not much fo me in terms of GAL'g close to him (gym and dinners out with mums). The other role I would never have considered in the past due to the travel requirements, but if H is going to have the kids 50% of the time, then travel would be feasible for me.

I have some thinking to do over the next few weeks.

Couple of texts ...

I parked at H's flat this morning and sent him a text telling him if he needed me to move it I would come back. Got one back saying "That's fine. I am away Thursday and Friday too if you want to park there". I sent one back saying "Thank you". Got a text later on in the day saying "I am in [X] 8 times this month. Let me know if you need me to get you [duty free] cigarettes". I responded "No - I'm good. Thank you anyway". Also got included in group conversation with his mum about D12's Christmas present. I didn't participate.

I still don't know what's going on.

Quote

FS,
I wonder how much this plays a part in sitch's where children are involved. I always was willing to give up a whole lot to give our young kids a great life. I looked at the bright side, we had kids young and when they were older and self sufficient we would still be young and have lots of time to do us. One of the few things my W has said over and over again is that she is tired of sacrificing herself. I understand fully where she is coming from on that but reality is with our youngest being 4 I don't think a person can fully stop sacrificing themselves yet. It seems her timing for focusing on herself is way off. Also how is getting rid of your partner in all this going to fix that, if anything we will both have to sacrifice our selves more post separation. The thing I struggle with most is the women in front of me not very long ago wanted nothing more then to be a mother and have a big happy family. Now it seems to be the last thing she wants.

I can't for the life of me figure out how to quote someone. It just keeps quoting everything. Anyway... what you said about my H not grieving. I think you are right. He is struggling with guilt. He does not realize what he has lost. He may never realize it. I am like you in the sense that I don't wonder what he is up to. I'm not sure if it is because I don't care or I just don't care to torture myself in that way so I just don't think about it. When I really think about it, it is probably the latter.

I also agree with the unspoken pact between parents. In my case, I remember having a very specific conversation with my H about this before I got pregnant. I told him that once you have kids, I don't believe in divorce. I think the kids deserve both parents in their life full time and it is up to the parents to work things out for the sake of the family (unless there is abuse, illegal activity, etc...). At the time, he agreed. We had been together two years and were still really loving our life together (very little stress, travelling, eating out, etc... very much focused on each other) so I think he thought it was a really easy agreement to make. I, on the other hand, did not. I expected there to be tough times. Of course, I could not have anticipated by beloved H, my M2B, would completely go against everything we talked about and fake a serious illness for three years to get out of being a husband and a father. And he can rewrite history all he wants, I know that he was doing both and that even if that was not his intention, he clearly put himself before their wellbeing with every lie he told. And how he chose to handle things post discovery, shows that he is continuing in that regard. So I guess I have learned that even if you have a spoken pact, it is one that should be revisited and recommitted to throughout the marriage instead of just assuming the other person is seeing the situation in the same way that you are. Assumptions can be very costly to a MR. I hate that the most impactful lessons are almost always learned the hard way.

Great news about your job offers FS. It is nice to have options like that. I wish I could be as hardline as your friend. I cannot imagine moving on to someone else after six months though. Does she have kids? I think it is probably a lot easier if you don't have walking, talking daily reminders of what you once had.

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I can't for the life of me figure out how to quote someone. It just keeps quoting everything.

Use only the stuff I have bolded - ignore the other part, okay?

start with [quote=NAME]

(Enter here all the good stuff you wish to quote)

then end with [/qwote]

BUT see how I intentionally misspelled "quote" above? Don't do that! Spell it correctly as [/"quote"]. I just wanted you to be able to "see" the markup

FS, I've appreciated your responses in my thread. All I can say is "let it [him] go". You seem like an awesome gal who doesn't need to be tied down by somebody who doesn't appreciate what you bring to the table.

Hey Harvey - thanks so much. I will keep an eye out for you on the divorced forum. You sound like your in a great place emotionally and mentally. You are a good man and it is a pity your W can�t see that right now. I know my entries don�t make it clear, but I am slowly letting him go. Seeing him so frequently makes it harder, but I am getting on with my life and not waiting for him. In fact, the more I see him, the more I question why I want a R at all.

That�s the spirit FS!!! It really is a step-by-step gradual process, isn�t it? I feel myself getting stronger with every day that goes by. Doesn�t mean I don�t still have some pity parties but they are become less frequent and not as intense or as long. That�s progress!! The holidays, of course, are going to be a bit harder as well as the inevitable finances/custodial negotiations. I am NOT looking forward to that in any way. But I cannot avoid it either.

Your H is such an idiot! I am fully confident that he will wake up one day and realize it. By then, he will have a whole different FS to contend with. I am looking forward to reading your posts when that happens...lol. (((FS)))

Originally Posted by FlySolo

who have you been sh@gging

LOL "shagging". My friends and I used to use that word all the time, I died when I read that!

One pointer, that convo about respect was far too long winded. Don't give him the satisfaction! Be brief and to the point and expect petulance in response, but you don't respond to petulance!

ovr is dead on here. Consider that every word you say takes you further away from your goal. There may come a day when a long deep discussion is called for. Now is not it.

ovrr - "shagging" is a particularly British expression I think. Goes to show I have been here for far too long.

I don't normally engage in lengthy texts with him. But being disrespectful about me with the kids hit a nerve. I don't need him to like me. I do however, need him to at least pretend to respect me when the children are around.

There is a story MIL, SIL and I use to find funny because it describes my H perfectly. When D9 was a baby I was pushing her in her stroller and H was walking in front of me. He stopped suddenly and the stroller hit the back of his leg. He looked at me and said "urgh, can't you watch where you're going". The very next day he was pushing her in her stroller and I stopped suddenly and he said "urgh, you made me crash into you". That was 8 YEARS ago. There were other incidences over the years - not walking fast enough was a favorite. In the six months pre BD these incidents were a daily occurrence - everything I did was wrong and he would have a go at me front of the children. Every sentence started with "urgh".

I wasn't strong enough to say anything then. I was scared of him and I was desperately trying to save the marriage. Now, I see it for what it is ... systematic bullying.

So, am I still trying to save the M. Maybe. But he has a lot of work to do. But R is now not my primary focus, healing is. I cannot heal if he continues to berate me whenever it suits him. He seems to be happy to play happy families as long as things are going his way. As soon as he gets stressed, then he turns. And I will not be his whipping boy anymore.

FS,
I�m having a �down on myself� moment. For the sake of learning what makes a good H, could you please comment on the distinction between bullying vs. just being kind of a cranky boor? I see myself in some of those behaviors you described. Or is it only different because I am aware and willing to change?
As for how to address it, why not try the terse but direct approach. Rather than saying �Please don�t talk that way to me because etc. etc.� Try �I can�t allow you to say that to me� or �I won�t listen if you use that tone of voice.� That�s all. Let him wonder why, and if he asks why (which would be pretty bold), give him that look of �You know exactly why.� Fewer words. Less is more.
If he really is a bully, then he gets his sense of power from your reactions. So, as they say, let your �no� be your �no� and stick to it. Don�t give him the satisfaction of having put you into a spin.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

So, am I still trying to save the M. Maybe. But he has a lot of work to do. But R is now not my primary focus, healing is. I cannot heal if he continues to berate me whenever it suits him. He seems to be happy to play happy families as long as things are going his way. As soon as he gets stressed, then he turns. And I will not be his whipping boy anymore.

I think this is excellent insight. Even though most of us here want do not want a divorce, we have to heal and become whole, healthy individuals before we can become good partners - to anyone, be it our spouses in R or with someone else in the future. The same applies to our WAS, and they are the ones that don't seem to seek the tools to become healthy, happy individuals. Good for you for recognizing the destructive pattern and fighting against it!

Originally Posted by burned

Im having a down on myself moment. For the sake of learning what makes a good H, could you please comment on the distinction between bullying vs. just being kind of a cranky boor? I see myself in some of those behaviors you described. Or is it only different because I am aware and willing to change?

I will give another example, this one happened Halloween last year (a few weeks after BD). Back then he use to spend most of the day out. He had been to the gym (4 hours) then picked the girls up. His mum was helping get the kids ready, I was in the living room with his step dad. I hear "FS what did you do with my gym bag" in a loud accusatory tone. I say "Nothing - I haven't touched it". I then get five sentences one after the other "You must have moved it", "you're the only one that would have moved it", "urgh, why can't you just leave things alone", "What have you done with it". When he'd finished, all I could say (in a defeatist tone) was "I haven't done anything with it". He then starts to run up the stairs and runs into our au pair and says in a friendly tone "[au pair], you haven't seen my gym bag have you". She says "Nah" and carries on walking down. He disappears for a while - turns out he had moved it to the bedroom. No apology, no recognition.

So, what makes that bullying vs cranky bastard

1. He accused rather than asked (notice he "accused" me and "asked" our au pair)
2. He wasn't really listening to my response
3. He kept going even though I had already responded (this was a big one - he wouldn't just say you've done something, he would go on and on and on)
4. He didn't apologize when he realized that he was mistaken
5. He wasn't afraid to do it in front of other people

On that same night I got "I told you not to stick things to the wall", "why haven't the children eaten yet", "you didn't buy enough sweets" and a host of other things I had done wrong. He is not that way with other people. Only me.

There is a difference between being cranky and being a bully. Being cranky is OK - we all have those days, but it isn't directed at one person, and it is balanced with nice things as well (I love that you did this or thanks for doing that or you look lovely today). Being a bully is systematic, it's ongoing and it's directed at someone who you want to feel bad about themselves.

I never called H up on it. I should have before it became systematic. He knew towards the end - I think he was aware he behaved like this, but couldn't help it. Some of resentment was even perhaps towards himself for being such a [censored] but, as the role of our internal narrative is to protect us this became ... "it's her fault I behave like this", and "it is too late for us to change". Self perpetuating.

That you are aware that this is how you sometimes behaves is a good thing. Forgive yourself (the past is in the past) and know that you are capable of change.

Originally Posted by burned

As for how to address it, why not try the terse but direct approach. Rather than saying Please dont talk that way to me because etc. etc. Try I cant allow you to say that to me or I wont listen if you use that tone of voice. Thats all. Let him wonder why, and if he asks why (which would be pretty bold), give him that look of You know exactly why. Fewer words. Less is more.

When he is like this now it is not really 'talking'. It is more subtle now. Words muttered under his breath "Urgh - do I have to do everything myself", or orders barked "Make sure YOU take the bins out today" or hidden accusations "I can't find anything in this house anymore". He doesn't really need me to listen or respond and saying anything makes me sound sarcastic, argumentative or defensive.

Originally Posted by burned

If he really is a bully, then he gets his sense of power from your reactions. So, as they say, let your no be your no and stick to it. Dont give him the satisfaction of having put you into a spin.

I think it was Davide who said it is easier for him to be true to himself if he does not see his W. I believe this same. I become the silent thing in the corner. I haven't got the option to not see him. The most I can do is keep up a friendly face and ignore the comments. I am trying to learn non combative techniques for dealing with other peoples negativity (stepping away, breathing slowly, visualisation). I will not however, allow him to teach my children to disrespect me. This is where I draw the line.

Grace - when we first come here we are all so desperate to save our M. The magic bullet so to speak. But, as time passes, and we become stronger we realize that saving ourselves is far more important. It truly is the gift of time.

I still want to R. I still love him unconditionally. I will love him for the rest of my life. But unconditional love does not mean that I will be with him without conditions. If he is unwilling to work on a health relationship with me, then I will love him unconditionally from a distance.

Journaling ...

Not much opportunity for GAL today. Busy day at work and then had to leave early to do school pick ups. Yesterday I went to drinks at lunch with some friends and a quick drink after work with friends before heading home for 7:30. LOL it sounds like I do nothing but drink. It is definitely Christmas season. The gym has pretty much gone out the window but planning a dryish January so will hit it hard again then.

I am finding life much easier. I smile and laugh a lot and even go for long periods without thinking about my sitch. The not sleeping has come back but it is less about him and more about me. I am coming to terms with feeling "no longer married" and am strangely feeling attracted to people again. I am happy and am starting to flex the 'charm' muscles again. This is generic charm aimed at pretty much everyone I interact with, and not targeted charm relating to possible future R. I want to be a better person, one who engages with others and is not totally wrapped up in her sitch. I am making a conscious effort to be nicer (smiling, engaging people in conversation and showing gratitude for things they do for me) and people are responding to this in a positive way.

I have come to the realization (I know it took a while) that, although sometimes when I am with my H that we feel like we were never apart, that his temper outbursts, passive aggressive remarks and general grumpiness is unhealthy for me. He still has the power to set the temperature in the room and I still let him. I do not know what to do about this. The children like us being together as a family. We both like going to watch them play. If I withdraw even more (I have been withdrawing), he will see it is validation of his belief that I am 'emotionally detached' from my children and only give him more cause to be more resentful of me. I am playing it by ear, but the balancing act is a difficult one to maintain.

He still sends me texts and emails with [censored] emoji's. Got two today - one forwarding a note from D9's teacher telling all parents that they kids must do their homework even if they have after school activities ("Do you think D9 is one of the culprits {questioning face}", and the other about Christmas presents. Still [censored]ing hate emojis. I don't know if he wants to start a conversation, or if he is temp checking, or if he is just plain delusional. I want to say to him "we are not friends, you don't treat me like we're friends - stop sending me unnecessary emails and [censored] emojis !!!".

Instead, I responded to the one about D9s homework ("probably") and ignored the other one.

Sound like the detachment process is going well for you FS. You give me hope. RE: withdrawing from family activities... I don't think going to those things together is necessarily a bad thing unless it is interfering with your detaching and GAL. If you can do it with no expectations and set a boundary regarding the passive aggressive comments, etc... and your kids enjoy having you both there, then why not? The only concerns I have would be more future-oriented... like if one or both of you got into an R with someone else. That might be a set up for you as well as your girls. And if you do get as far as filing for D, you would probably want to minimize the togetherness for everyone's sake. Hard to say... I don't think there are hard and fast rules if you are detached and have no expectations. It is when you are not and you do have expectations that things can get icky. Anyway... those are my thoughts. Others may have a different opinion.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

Absolutely. Desperate to save our marriages, but as time progresses you makes changes for yourself.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I still want to R. I still love him unconditionally. I will love him for the rest of my life. But unconditional love does not mean that I will be with him without conditions. If he is unwilling to work on a health relationship with me, then I will love him unconditionally from a distance.

I don't know that I had a chance with the short time frame for the D. I'm a stats guy. I sometimes think that if you play your cards right, you might have a 10% chance of saving the marriage before D. Then, statistics show that divorced couples remarry 10% of the time. At best, we have ~20% chance of saving our marriages. The more important thing is for it to be a catalyst to change ourselves for the better and to have those changes stick.

I have the utmost respect for you Harvey, but I too am a numbers gal - not stats per see, but analyzing the numbers to come up with a reasonable patterns. Some things to consider ...

1. Timeframe - If you go by AS timeline it could be years and years and years before they see the lighthouse
2. By the time they do come round, we are most likely done with waiting
3. There are lots of stats around S and even more about D but I don't think there is any accurate count of reconciliation . H and are a S. If he comes back what form do we fill in - there isn't one. He would just come back, right?

It has been a few days since I've properly posted a journal entry. It is still Christmas season in London so there have been lots of drinks to go to. In previous years I would have given most of them a miss, or made an appearance, had one drink, and then headed home. It is an hour commute home and I always hated being tipsy on the train. Still hate being tipsy on the train, but I am enjoying the drinks nights.

I went out with the 'boy' (I am going to call the 28 year old - who is actually 30, that from now on). Most unsuitable but had a nice night out dancing. We talked some and he is broken and filling the void with alcohol and sex. But he is fun to watch and being around him boosts my self esteem. I will not be sleeping with him though. I am too old for that.

I am a little hungover this morning. H came over at 8:30 this morning to pick up the girls for netball. I was planning on giving it a miss today as would rather stay in bed. D12 woke up and said she didn't want to go, so he ended up hanging around here for two hours until D9's game started. I sat downstairs watching cartoons with him and D9 for a bit, but was obvious he was in a mood, so went up to my room, closed the door and slept for an hour. When I came back down he had been putting some Christmas lights out the front. He said something about some of them being broken and I would have to buy some new ones. I mumbled OK. I offered to keep D12 with me while he took D9 to netball (it is his day and he is supposed to have both of them) and then said I would come into town with them after. He snapped "so you can get your car from the station". I said "yes, and I thought I'd come have lunch with you guys". He wasn't having any of that. Simply said "we are watching a movie and just getting snacks there". This is unlike him. Normally he is very courteous when it comes to spending time together with the kids. I don't know what has happened to turn him (again).

So, will get my car and have lunch in town on my own. I might also get a facial and do some Christmas shopping before he returns the kids at 5. He is going out tonight. I however, unlike him, will not behave like a moody cow just because he has been out boozing with his buddies.

Interesting thing happened to me the other day. I got off the train in the morning to discover it was raining. An inbetween kind of rain, more than spitting, less than torrential. It is about a ten minute walk from the station to the office and I contemplated waiting it out but it looked unlikely to stop any time soon. So I braved it. I walked with my head up and the rain and cold air on my skin felt wonderful. Everyone else was running madly but I walked calmly but with determination. When I got in, my hair was plastered to my head but my clothes, underneath my coat was dry. Luckily I don�t wear a lot of makeup so I did not have to contend with racoon eyes, so damage was minimal. I was smiling from ear to ear. Must have looked like a crazy person. But I am not. I was just happy. My team laughed good natured my and I said, �I know, I know I look like a drowned rat but, honestly, that rain felt glorious�.

I am more positive about life when I do not see him.

Sounds like you are really starting to stretch your wings and I think your H is being an a$$ because he knows you are. His comment about your car being at the station makes that pretty clear. He�s starting to figure out what he has lost and you are starting to figure out what you have gained. Your focus is shifting and so is his. I would expect that stormier days are ahead for your H and sunnier skies for you. Keep moving forward FS. You�ve got this!!!!

FS. You are doing great. It�s plain to hear via the tone of your posts. You have got an amazing life ahead of you, whatever happens, I can tell.

Quote

I was smiling from ear to ear. Must have looked like a crazy person. But I am not. I was just happy. My team laughed good natured my and I said, �I know, I know I look like a drowned rat but, honestly, that rain felt glorious�.

That is an amazing update. The ability to find joy in even quotidian moments is so important, and such a positive sign. You are on the right path. I know that as I found those moments more and more I realized that my sitch didn't define me or my happiness. It was completely up to me. Your happiness does not depend on your H, or anyone outside of yourself.

May you keep making progress! Hugs!

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I am more positive about life when I do not see him.

Yes. Seeing H usually puts me in a funk for a day or two. I don't like it. I love how you got such happiness out of just everyday life. You are definitely on the right track!

Thank you DV, Grace, Yorkie and Davide. I am feeling really positive at the moment. The only thing that gets me down is time spent with my H - he doesn't throw me into a spin anymore, but the little remarks do throw me for a split second. Something about projecting negative energy.

I am still sometimes small in his presence (when he is moody) but I am better at offsetting it. Project positive vibes, right?

When he came back there were a few comments, but I just ignored the comments. I heard him say to D9, "mummies being rude, I'll just take you and D12 and go into town". I replied "I'm sorry - when was I rude". He said something about ignoring D9's question - I asked her to repeat her question and she said she didn't ask one. So he backtracked, and drove me in. While we were in the car he asked me if I wanted to have lunch and go to the movies. I said I had some errands to run.

He dropped the girls off earlier. He stayed for a bit (no real conversation) and before he left I smiled and said to have a "great time tonight". I then shut the door behind him and went to tidy the kitchen without so much as another thought. Right now I am rocking this detached thing. Can't say I will be at half two tonight when the tunnels appear, but right now I can honestly say I have no expectations and I am more or less building a life without him.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

I think this is natural and it will be for awhile. I feel like I'm doing well, but talking to XW (in person or on the phone) still gets me down. It's just feel strange that the woman I spent the last 17 years with treats me like I mean nothing to her.

FS, you interact with your H a lot. I will be staying with my XW and the girls for two days this week. It's going to be awkward.

H - I will respond more fully later. It is awkward sometimes because we hide so much from each other - lots of emotions boiling away underneath the surface.

I will say, as hard as it will be, to not let her set the temperature in the room. Pleasant but not forthcoming. If she starts a conversation, engage pleasantly but keep things at a superficial level. Don�t start conversations yourself unless it�s logistical or practical. Don�t ask questions about what she�s been up to. If she asks you, tell the truth but don�t over share. This is about the kids not you or her so keep the passive aggressiveness and sarcasm to yourself (as much as you�ll want to say it). If she is sarcastic or passive aggressive then change the topic or calmly leave the room. Do not take the bait. Can�t temember who it was (AnotherStander or Ready2Change I think) who use to psych himself up before coming home (like football players do before a game) by punching the air and saying something like �I got this�.

Many times you will want to go in your room, shut the door and cry or scream. It is ok to do this - you are human and it [censored]. If you need to post, vent or cry here - someone will always be listening.

Your simple statement, "I am more positive about life when I do not see him," is incredibly helpful.

It's a great reminder for me, even as I try to focus on my life, to continue to be a positive presence during the few times W and I get together. In the most basic terms, I hope this is the question she can eventually answer in the affirmative: "Am I happier when I am with him than when I am not?"

Journaling

It has been a while since I've written an entry. Things have been busy and in all honesty, I do not know where I am right now emotionally.

I have continued to become more positive about my future each day. I do not think of him much other than when I am about to see him, seeing him, or have just seen him. I find our interactions increasingly awkward. He has most of the lat week off so he has been seeing the children a lot. He has been coming around to the house and 'doing stuff' whilst I have been at work. I went into the office each day last week, both because I enjoy the interactions at work, and because I do not enjoy my interactions with him. He has increasingly become moody when he has been with me (mainly because I am out so much these days). He still does not ask, but I can tell it upsets him.

For example, I went out Wednesday night, and after one too many drinks, I decided to book a hotel and stay in London (on my own). He had the children so didn't think anything of it. It felt strange (and a little painful) getting to the hotel room and not texting him to tell him I was OK, but I figured he is not my H anymore, and therefore I did not need to tell him. In the morning I got a text at 10:30 saying "Girls got to school OK. D9 a bit upset you didn't come home as told her she would see you in the morning. D9 enjoyed the school Christmas festival at church" followed by 3 photos from D9's assembly and a video. I thought a bit about whether to respond, but eventually relented, and said "Thanks. She looks adorable. Sorry I missed it". He sent a few more texts about the festival with short responses from me. He then said he would wait at the house for me to come home that evening as the girls wanted to see me before going to his place to stay the night.

Last night he told me I had to be back by 7 so he could go to play football. I was home by 6 and when he brought them back at 7 he said "You're home early" (evidence I think that he is watching that f**king camera). He sat down in the kitchen for a bit and there was awkward silence. I eventually said "girls, daddy has to go, come kiss him goodbye". He said he was going to stay for half an hour because football didn't start until 8:00. I said "oh, I'll just go get changed out of my suit then" and as I walked upstairs, I heard him say to no-one in particular "ridiculous". When I came downstairs he asked if I could drop our dog to his flat Tuesday morning (the girls as staying with him Monday night) so he can take her to get her haircut. I said I couldn't as I was going for a drink Monday night and would have to leave the car at the station and catch a taxi in the morning. He pulled a face, went "urgh, fine, I'll sort it out".

So, whilst I get Steve's point that every interaction either brings us closer together or pulls us further apart I do not know what the appropriate DB response is. I am detaching (which is the only action available to me in this sh!t of a situation) and he is responding with passive aggressiveness, anger and masked emotional guilting. I cannot validate snide remarks.

Views??

Originally Posted by Flysolo

So, whilst I get Steve's point that every interaction either brings us closer together or pulls us further apart I do not know what the appropriate DB response is. I am detaching (which is the only action available to me in this sh!t of a situation) and he is responding with passive aggressiveness, anger and masked emotional guilting. I cannot validate snide remarks.

I'd vote that you doing you is the appropriate response. Maybe you can't validate, but your detachment is fantastic. His temper tantrums are his business, and in my view should be ignored, as you seem to have been doing.

If you were escalating his tantrum, I'd say that would be a "pull apart" action. But I don't think every interaction has potential to bring you closer. Sometimes just not alienating is the best you can do, and I'm sure he recognizes that there's nothing to fight against and that his snide remarks fall on deaf ears.

I think emotionally you are doing really well. You can�t validate passive aggressive, sulky, throw my toys out of the pram comments. Particularly ones that are made behind your back. You could take the bait and challenge them but that is likely to push away. And give him the excuse to say how unreasonable you are. Ignore him, he�s being pathetic.

Either your GAL is starting to affect him ie jealous and starting to see how great you are ( and is putting him in a spin) or he�s showing his true colours. Only time will tell. Whichever, it�s no longer all about him, you�re living you�re life irrespective. That�s hard to stomach for someone who has narcissistic tendencies.

Yep...he is not enjoying the DB version of FS. Careful what you wish for...is the phrase that comes to mind. I echo what has already been said. You are doing great FS!!! Personally, I think your sitch is one where he will want to return but you have moved on. You win either way, right?

FS, I wonder if it's not so much that "every interaction either brings us closer together or pulls us further apart," but that we live out our best version of ourselves, regardless? Doing so may bring you closer, may pull you apart, or may have no effect whatsoever. That choice is yours and that of your H's.

In my sitch, at least for now, the corollary of choosing the best version of myself entails waiting for W, even as I move on with my life's work. My choice to wait may change over time. And W's understanding of the best version of herself may also change in time.

Thank you all.

Today I tried the be more pleasant approach - not throwing myself at him, but being slightly less 'detached'. Smile, respond with more than a Yes, No or Sure. There was plenty of opportunity as we spent all of today together with the kids.

Nothing out of the ordinary really. Casual conversation. He did most of the talking as he went out with the dad's football team for their Christmas get together last night and he wanted to talk about it. There was one awkward moment when he asked if I was taking the kids anywhere for half term in Feb. I reminded him he had said he was taking the children away and that I was going away in Feb too. He asked when and I said the week before half term. He was not happy this would mean my not seeing the kids for 2 weeks, despite the fact he arranged for his mum took to take the kids away for 2.5 weeks last summer without consulting me (he didn't give a scoobies about the kids being away from me then). He asked logistics questions: who will look after them - his mum, already sorted), why can't I go in the half term instead (because I am not going on my own and the prices hike up during half term) and what am I doing anyway (skiing). He then said something about sorting through his skiing stuff and taking it to his flat (my response "cool").

He did the footie dad's Christmas dinner last year. It was about a month post BD. I was out that night too and I ran into him at a club. He had seen me dancing with some men (just dancing) and had spent the entire night glaring at me from the side of the dance floor. I decided to ignore him and he got angrier and angrier. We took a cab home together, had a fight in the cab, and then ended up in bed together. That was the last time he told me he loved me (he repeated it over and over) without prompting. The last time he told me how beautiful I was. He spent the whole night holding me like he never wanted to let me go. I noticed he had taken his ring off during the night and when I asked him he said he had taken it off at the gym. We were fine that day. Back to normal. He kept walking over and cuddling me. Later, I found the ring in the pocket of his jeans - when I confronted him he said it was because I was dancing with other men. I believed him (I still do) but after the confrontation he retreated again - back to the alien.

I opened a Christmas card from his mum today. It says "Merry Christmas to both of you". He said his mum didn't know what to put so he said to just give it to both of us. He asked me if I wanted to go halves on a present for his mum. I said sure. Never mind that I have paid for every birthday present and Christmas present for pretty much his entire family for the last 15 years. This year when he knows I probably won't buy a present, he wants to go halves !!!

I will likely not see him now until Thursday. He has the kids tomorrow night and I am out. He then goes away for two days returning Thursday morning. He will pick up the kids in the morning and have them all day and overnight.

Dropping in to say �hi�. I am glad you stuck to your guns regarding your ski holiday. I admire your courage...travelling alone. I was thinking the other day that perhaps my being an identical twin has, in some ways, handicapped me with respect to my discomfort of being alone. In a sense, I have been in a committed R my entire life. With men, it is the same. Very little casual dating for me. This is my second marriage but I was also engaged two times before that and did not make it to the altar. The first time was because we were so young and each other�s �first� [everything]. The second time was a relationship I had about two years before meeting my H. He was crazy about me but I wasn�t quite so enamoured... just terrified of hitting my 40s without having had kids. I woke up just in time and decided it would be better to be childless than to be married to someone I didn�t really love.

Your H isn�t upset that you will be away from the kids for two weeks. He is upset that you will be away from HIM for two weeks. Keep doing what you are doing. Whether you get to the point where you no longer want him back or he gets to the point where he is willing to put aside his pride and ask for a second chance... you will be better off either way. I think you are doing exceptionally well and you are an inspiration to me. (((FS)))

FS, have no mercy when detaching. You are doing a good job with your DBing. Each time I read your updates I have my devil smile with anticipation. No mercy girl, you are a DBer. What�s happening with some girls here?

Keep doing what works FS

(((Hugs)))

HI FS. Just checking in as you haven�t posted in a few days. I hope that means you are too busy GALi!!! (((HUGS)))

Hi

It�s been a while since my last journal and, yes, mostly due to GALg. Unfortunately, GALg in London in December mostly consists of drinking a lot - Nef, the devil may be in your smile, but he has been on my shoulder, slyly whispering �have one more, go on, you know you want too�. I finished up Thursday and now have two weeks of for the holidays. I am a little relieved as I am not sure my liver (or wallet) could take any more.

I am in a place called Centreparcs with my kids for three days now. For those that don�t know, centerparcs is a chain of holiday villages in the middle of the forest - all centred around an indoor water park. We�ve been swimming, hired bikes for etc. We have just come back from a bike ride and the kids are now both playing on their phones. H drove the girls down yesterday as I had some errands to do in the morning and I joined them at lunch. He left last night as he had an early flight this morning. I wish I knew where things are with us but I don�t. Friendly, with lots left unsaid.

It looks like the ski trip may be under threat. H has spoken with his mum and told her he will not be around that week at all to help out. She is now unsure if she wants the girls all week - I had told her he should be home 2 or 3 nights (as he normally is) but he says he won�t be here at all. She now wants to have a chat. I will be really disappointed as was looking forward to it. I am not sure if he is being difficult but suspect he probably is.

I have slept with the �boy�. I do not feel guilty but I do know it was wrong. Not because I felt like I was cheating, but because it was fundamentally wrong. I am not yet ready and I do not have real feelings for him. I do not think he has real feelings for me either. We slept very far away from each other - my H and I (before BD) always touched when we slept (my arms wrapped around him or vice verse). Post BD I use to make myself small so I didn�t accidentally touch him. It felt like that - I didn�t want to touch him in case he thought I felt it was more than it was. It felt dishonest. We have been out together (in groups) since and we avoided one another. I have two weeks off work now so hopefully the awkwardness will have gone by the time I get back.

I am a little anxious about Christmas Day. I am very disorganised this year and feel ill prepared. I have another day and a half to get prepared. It will be very strange.

Hi FlySolo,

I am intrigued by you. Maybe b/c you're in big city England and I'm in suburban, almost rural America. I admire your strength. It's not easy to go and make things happen sometimes, like take that trip, go out, do what you have to do to find some happiness.

Your "boy" filling your temporary needs piques my interest. Of course, I've wanted that too. I want to be heard and felt and understood. Or at least occupied. You compare him to your H, of course it's different.

Your H is strange bird right now, I will continue to support you doing what you need to do to heal, find yourself, and move forward. It's hard and strange to live like this, but it won't be forever. Life will get better. Merry Christmas.

Wow..when you are away a couple days, lots of things happen.

I am glad you don�t feel guilty...you have no reason to be. Sounds like you and the boy are on the same page so not a huge deal. Gives you an idea of where you are at emotionally. Please don�t beat yourself up about it.

I also feel unprepared for Christmas. Usually I am ultra organized but this year my heart isn�t in it the way it usually is. I will make it good though...for my kids. And I know you will do the same. No expectations...that�s the key, I think. And focus on the two little beings that matter most. We are blessed in that department, you and I. Today I volunteered at a breakfast for the homeless and I was reminded of just how lucky I am...with or without my H.

I think your H is being difficult too. Hopefully you can take your trip anyway. (((FS)))

Originally Posted by ovrrnbw

I admire your strength. It's not easy to go and make things happen sometimes, like take that trip, go out, do what you have to do to find some happiness.

My strength, hmmnnn, I�m not sure about how strong I am. I give a good game ... that�s all. Inside I still sometimes feel like I�m falling apart. I notice now that those feelings are after the fact. I guess that�s what they mean by living in the moment. Afterwards, I still wish for the days where we would put the kids to bed and sit quietly on the sofa together, drink cups of tea and watch rubbish TV. I conveniently forget that it was always me getting up to make the tea and always his program on the TV. I plan trips and go out not because I am searching for happiness - it is simply to fill the space he left. It is not a search for happiness, it is an escape from the sadness. Don�t get me wrong, there are moments of happiness. Momentarily being with someone who wanted to be with me after the near constant rejection of the last year - there was happiness in that.

I guess the sleeping with someone must seem strange. I guess all I can say is I know I am a good person. I did not look at another man for 16 years and would not have if this had not happened. My H left me. He wanted to see if the grass is greener. I have done the same. For the record, the grass is not greener but it is also not the scary wilderness I had painted in my head. The last two months my mindset has changed. I am no longer scared - I will be ok. The boy is not the man for me but I know that, if things do not turn out for H and I, the world is a big place and I am not the hideous mess that no-one would ever want.

Am I healing , I think so. I feel better. I don�t cry and I can interact with him like a normal person. But, I would still give anything for him to turn around and say he wants to work on us.

DV - I sense we are both moving on ... just in different ways. I suspect your way is healthier - but we will both get to acceptance ... this I know.

FS... I sense that you are feeling a bit down. Not sure about the healthier aspect. I am just taking it one day at a time. I, too, would give anything for my H to turn around and say he wants to work on us. But i know he won�t. He is too far gone. He has been thinking about this for years. He feels compelled to finish it. I wish he had had more faith in us when all of these thoughts of his started to take over. But he didn�t... he ruminated and ran away. That says a lot about his character and values. He has much work to do and I hope, for his sake, that he does it instead of jumping into another R in order to distract himself from the sheer weight of what it must feel like to leave your family and lie to everyone who cares about you. It must be a lonely place indeed. A different kind of lonely than what you and I are dealing with, I think.

Chin up. You are getting there...as am I. Much love to you and your family. (((FS)))

Dear FS. How you doing? How was Christmas Day?

Read your last post. I agree with DV6; it�s not a healthier way, just different at the moment. I also recognise everything that you say from my own feelings. I guess we�re faking it until we make it??

For the majority of the time I am super strong. I tell people I�m moving on and am better off without him causing drama. Saw an IFA, seen the lawyer, started looking at houses. But .....

The kids were fab yesterday. So very proud of them but today I�m sad because there is another person who should be sharing that pride. Another day with family today and I plant a smile for the sake of everybody else but it doesn�t reach right into my soul. Perhaps it will with time. So, I accept my situation and can and will deal with it, but I don�t like it.

Lawyer was very pragmatic and advised me to get out financially ASAP. She reckons he�s hiding things and I have potentially more to lose than him due to his general recklessness and burying of head in sand. So I geared myself up before Christmas to get pensions valued etc etc. Now I feel like an adversary. I know I can�t trust him but how are we enemies after 30 years?

It�s almost as if I could do with him doing one last awful thing so that it�ll push me over the edge. What sane person wants that? I think because I see so little of him, the truth of what he has done is receding in my mind. I�m making excuses for him again and thinking they weren�t that bad.

He spent Christmas Day alone, odd when he and OW were talking about Christmas plans back in August when he was still coming back here.

Hopefully sanity will return to me shortly and I�m sorry for hijacking your thread. I just wanted to let you know that you�re not alone in your feelings.

Hi Yorkie - thanks for dropping by and sorry I haven't responded earlier. Reading things yourself and DV write I am often reminded of the two parts of me that no one can take away ... my strength and my empathy. Both, like the two of you, are a blessing, and have helped me to navigate this hell with my head up and my heart open (ish). I hope, to some small extent, I have done the same for the two of you.

I will respond on the Christmas day in a separate (and likely very long) entry ... but for now

Originally Posted by Yorkie

For the majority of the time I am super strong. I tell people Im moving on and am better off without him causing drama. Saw an IFA, seen the lawyer, started looking at houses. But .....

The kids were fab yesterday. So very proud of them but today Im sad because there is another person who should be sharing that pride. Another day with family today and I plant a smile for the sake of everybody else but it doesnt reach right into my soul. Perhaps it will with time. So, I accept my situation and can and will deal with it, but I dont like it

Strength, I described it above as a blessing. But, behind that particular blessing is always a tiny sliver of a curse. Same with "honorable" and "reasonable" and "she will cope". Sometimes I want to stop smiling and tell people "my world has fallen apart" and to stick those words up right up their a***e and to just let me cry and breakdown and go off the rails. Sometimes I wish I was less honorable and less reasonable and less strong. Sometimes I want someone to look after ME.

But I am strong and I am reasonable and I am honorable, so I will continue smiling and telling people "I am fine".

Originally Posted by Yorkie

Lawyer was very pragmatic and advised me to get out financially ASAP. She reckons hes hiding things and I have potentially more to lose than him due to his general recklessness and burying of head in sand. So I geared myself up before Christmas to get pensions valued etc etc. Now I feel like an adversary. I know I cant trust him but how are we enemies after 30 years?

When I was in my 20's I split from my ex (to be with H). We had been together 10 years (since we were 14). I left with nothing and started again from scratch. He had a lot of money (he was a banker and it was the days of the massive bonus) but I walked away with nothing anyway. But I could do that because I was 24 (and strong and honorable and reasonable) and I knew I had my whole life ahead of me. There wasn't anything that couldn't be rebuilt or rebought. The separation, once be got over the betrayal and I got over the guilt, was an amicable one and we are still friends.

But your H is not in his 20's and he has a shed load of 'stuff' invested in your MR which can no longer be rebuilt or rebought. Your L is right, he will have hidden stuff and he will fight for it. Why has it turned adversarial ... because there is money involved. Once it becomes adversarial, the fa�ade will drop, and he will fight and it won't even be about the money, it will be to make a point. You can do this though. You are about the strongest woman I know.

Originally Posted by Yorkie

Its almost as if I could do with him doing one last awful thing so that itll push me over the edge. What sane person wants that? I think because I see so little of him, the truth of what he has done is receding in my mind. Im making excuses for him again and thinking they werent that bad.

It WAS that bad. And he will do one last awful thing and many last awful things before this is over. And in a few years ... when you are at a graduation, or at a wedding, you will look over, and see both the man you loved for 30 years, and the man who betrayed you so brutally, and none of it will matter because you are there to celebrate a graduation or a wedding and it will no longer be about the two of you.

Originally Posted by Yorkie

He spent Christmas Day alone, odd when he and OW were talking about Christmas plans back in August when he was still coming back here.

Well laid plans and all that. A reminder to all those fantasist and escapist that life is not perfect.

Journaling

Three days since my last entry and again it seems like a lifetime. Two steps forward, one step back.

H came around Christmas eve and spent the night (in the spare room). A few strange moments where it seemed, despite the awkwardness, like he had never left and we were still a family. These occur mostly when we are with the children, or talking about the children, or doing something for the children. A few moments which reminded me how controlling he can be: we got D12 hover skates and he had asked me when they arrived a few weeks ago to make sure they were working and re-charged. I forgot. He went into his normal passive aggressive stance, "well they better be ok because its too late to send them back now", "it's a good thing they CAME fully charged otherwise we wouldn't have time to wrap them". Only one moment where the hairs stood up on the back of my neck - when he suddenly had to take the dog for a walk (which I assume he had to make a call). I don't' know if he is seeing anyone - I think he is just really really private. Also, and this is weird, I was wrapping presents in my room and he was downstairs with the girls. I kept the door shut but he still kept coming in without knocking. In the morning, I was downstairs making breakfast, and had to go upstairs to get something and he was having a shower in my ensuite. It just didn't feel right. I wouldn't just go into someone's room or have a shower in their shower.

Christmas day came and it was good. We got up early to open presents with the girls (he had put fake footprints next to the fire place and arranged all their presents) and then we had breakfast. After breakfast I started preparing food (his entire family were coming over). Once everyone arrived, it was just like it use to be, except we weren't together. Everyone stayed until about 2 in the morning. We watched movies and played board games and generally had a lovely day. There was a sadness to it though - if we can't sort things out then this is our last Christmas as a family. I can't imagine I will entertain his family again. The jumper I bought him was too big and he managed to get in a "I think you gave me someone else's present" (like I said, passive aggressive).

He stayed over again that night as it is his birthday boxing day and I said it would be nice for him to wake up with the girls. He had to go at 10 as he was working that day so wouldn't have seen them for very long if he had to go back to the flat and then come back in the morning. I gave him a hug when he came down and wished him a happy birthday then stupidly and quickly said "ILU". I don't know why. It was all a bit too much for me. When he left I walked him to the door and asked him for a hug. The weight of it being our last Christmas together as a family was too much for me. He held me for a bit and then said he felt the same. I've been holding it together for so long and, I don't know, in a moment of weakness, I started crying and said to him how could he do this to us and, this is our family and it all seemed so unnecessary. He started to get tears in his eyes and said he had to go.

He sent me a text later saying thank you for his present, that he loved it and that I should not have spent so much money. I replied that it was OK, I wanted to get him something I knew he'd like and then put a smiley face emoji (to make it seem a bit more casual). I have not spoken to him since.

Boxing day lunch with his family but without him and then home again.

Don�t beat yourself up about your moment of vulnerability FS. Sounds like he had one too. I maintain my belief that he will want to come back one day...for real. Whether or not you will want him back is another matter. You have been incredibly strong and stoic in all of this...putting your children first. I am envious that you are able to still spend time together as a family even though you are not technically together. My children had about ten minutes of that this Christmas and are back to seeing one or the other. My heart breaks for them in that regard. I never had to go through this as a child and I am so grateful for that. I gave my H a framed photo of him and his three kids that I took when we were in Mexico last year. I put on the card that it was from the children but obviously he knew that I had put it together. He thanked me a number of times and said it was �lovely�. And it was... different time, different person. I hope he looks at it and remembers that we had some good times too.

Anyway...chin up. Back to GAL and DBing. You are doing great. Don�t be afraid of the outcome. What will be will be. (((FS)))

Originally Posted by DejaVu6

I am envious that you are able to still spend time together as a family even though you are not technically together. My children had about ten minutes of that this Christmas and are back to seeing one or the other. My heart breaks for them in that regard. I never had to go through this as a child and I am so grateful for that. I gave my H a framed photo of him and his three kids that I took when we were in Mexico last year. I put on the card that it was from the children but obviously he knew that I had put it together. He thanked me a number of times and said it was lovely. And it was... different time, different person. I hope he looks at it and remembers that we had some good times too.

I am going to hijack my own thread for you DV

I do not get your H. How he could not want to spend Christmas with his kids. Your H is on his way to having THREE children he does not know. Is he so ashamed of his behavior that he cannot even face his own kids ?!?!?

The photo was a lovely idea - and further evidence that at the heart of it, you are a decent person who wants your H to have a relationship with his children. You are too good for him DV.

It is not our kids that he cannot face. It is my sister and her husband who were coming over later on in the day. He could have stayed longer though. But you are right... he chose not to. He hasn�t been able to spend more than 30 minutes in our home since this all started. Not sure exactly what that is about - there could be a bunch of different reasons. I think it has a lot to do with guilt and shame and maybe also not wanting to get too comfortable as he is giving up a lot for his �freedom� and does not want to be reminded of that fact.

So he is a coward ... ... and the feeling of guilt and not wanting to face any reminders of what he has done was stronger than the desire to spend Christmas with his children ... who btw are now at the age where Christmas is still magical but in a few years, it will stop being so.

I would not miss these last years of childhood for anything. I went to the family boxing day lunch yesterday because my children love going and they love seeing us all together. They have my H's sense of family. I would not take that away from them. My H wasn't there (he had to work) so it was his parents, his sisters family, his sisters husbands parents and his sisters husbands sister and husband. No-one mentioned H wasn't there. No-one mentioned H had moved out. It was uncomfortable because I have not seen most of them since last boxing day, and the fact that we had split up hung over the room like a smelly elephants fart, but I smiled, I took the looks of pity, made jokes where appropriate, and said, when asked "how was your Christmas", "It was great thanks. The kids had a wonderful day ... D12 got a blah blah blah".

You do it for the kids. You put up with the discomfort and the looks so they have positive memories from the childhood. It is a hard time for them, the best we can do is make it as normal as possible. Change will happen inevitably - I can't imagine I will do Christmas next year, or be invited to boxing day lunch again, but if the changes happen gradually, then they will cope better. Terrible analogy but like the frog in the boiling water - as long as the water doesn't get too hot too quickly, the children will have time to get use to it.

I would say that describes him pretty well. Remember... this is the same person who pretended to be going for nightly medical treatment whilst seeing his children about an hour a day and when we lived on the mainland, would go days without seeing them even though sometimes he was only five minutes away [only he knows how often that was the case]. He has always put himself and his feelings first. Anything to avoid the discomfort of looking in the mirror and facing himself. I think that is one of the reasons he ran from me so hard...I am a mirror for him and I remind him of everything he is not. I am honest and I put the needs of my family ahead of my own. My H lies as easily as he breathes and he is always looking out for number one. Even when he thinks he is sacrificing for his family, he does not do it wholeheartedly. Rather, he wallows in self-pity and allows resentment to build. Gosh that is a hard truth to come to terms with. But you cannot ignore the evidence. It is what it is and he is who he is.

I hope he does the work to figure this stuff out but sadly, I think he is likely all talk in that department. He says he is going to go to counselling but I doubt an appointment has been made. I think he will just bide his time until he thinks he can get away with it and then find someone else to be "in love with" (if he hasn't already) for a couple of years until real life sets in once again.

Oh DV - hugs to you and a virtual cup of tea. You deserve so much better. I wait for the day when you are fully healed and back on form.

Journaling

NYE party last night. It was strange and good and a little sad all mixed up in one. I had four girlfriends over and their children. Three of them I met through D9 and the other I met through D12. All four of them, over the last 12 months either divorced, separated or been estranged from their H's. It was weird to see what different stages we are all at. One wants nothing to do with her H and finds him an annoyance (she left him), the other is accepting and (though sad at times) sees her H as the father of her kids (he has been a bit of a b***ard) and no more, the other's H is a functional alcoholic who she asked to leave (she would reconcile but with conditions) and the last H is in prison (she loves him but is unsure she can be with a man who made the choices he has made). Despite the gloomy intro above, we laughed a lot and there was very little talk of our H's.

I did not tell the children until 2 days ago about the party. I don't know why, I guess I didn't want them telling their dad. But MIL was over and she asked me if what our plans were. I said I am having some friends over. Because she is suspicious (H gets it from her) she instantly asked who was coming over. I said some of the mums I know. D12's ears pricked up and she wanted to know which mums, what time, what were we doing etc. They stayed at their dads that night, and when they came back she asked the same question of me again in front of him. I said it had been planned for a while, and she angrily when "and you only told us two days ago!!!". During the actual evening, D12 spent most of the night non her own. There were two girls her age, one of whom is one of her best friends, and she chose to spend the evening on the sofa watching a programme on her own. Her friends stayed in the dining room playing board games with us. I don't know what this was about, but suspect she felt the absence of her father, and as this is the first NYE party we have thrown and only the second party I have thrown that was not for her or her sister (the first was my birthday party in Oct and they spent the night with their dad) she was sensing another 'change' which is outside her control. She would not kiss me goodnight or let me walk her up to bed. She did not the previous night either. I guess no-one likes change, particularly change which is outside their control.

Anyway, At ten to midnight, we called all the children into the living room, sat around the fireplace and watched the countdown and the fireworks on TV. Then we did a little min disco with the children. I saw D12 smiling a little when she watched one of the girls (3) dancing around the living room. She had spent a lot of the evening looking after her, making sure she was OK and watching princess movies on TV with her. A reminder that I have raised good thoughtful children.

During the countdown D9 sat on my lap, with her little legs kicking excitedly and screamed 10, 9, 8 etc with all her little friends around her.

I have not seen H since Sunday when he dropped the kids off after having them over night. When he left, he said something about getting up early in the morning to do a flight and then not being back until today. He is picking the kids up at 5. I don't think I even got up when he left. Just waved him goodbye and said "See you in the new year". Looking back this seems rather cold. He called last night and D9 gave me the phone after speaking to him. He had hung up by the time I got to it. I sent a text saying "D9 gave me the phone but there was no-one there. Assume you didn't want to speak to me but text me in case it was a bad connection and I will call you back". I got a quick response saying "No - I just called to say happy new year to the girls before i went to bed but they were pre-occupied so very quick call. Enjoy your night and I will see you tomorrow". This was at 7:40 - so he was either on his way out or he was telling the truth and had an early flight. Even when he has an early flight he doesn't go to bed at 8 so assume he was going out. This is not me caring whether he goes out or not, I have not given it any more thought, and the thought of him being out NYE did not keep me up last night, I am just piecing together the pieces.

Slight detour into stream of consciousness. When H and I lived in London and before we had kids, one of the things he loved about me was that I was surrounded by people. I use to throw dinner parties all the time (casual affairs where people would come over, I would make a big batch of something and we would all sit around eating and laughing) and when ever we went out, everyone would always come back to mine for drinks and to crash. I would make everyone a big breakfast, and people would sit around our flat lazing about until lunchtime. When we had kids, this stopped. Partly because my friends lived in London, partly because we had kids and dinner parties are no easy with children, and I never really 'made much of an effort' with the mums (his words). I am starting to become that person again (albeit with children) and I think, if I were to say I was grateful for anything that happened the last year, it is that I am discovering her again. He calls my london friends 'friends of convenience' (i.e. not real friends) and I guess in that respect he is correct. I spend time with them because they are a distraction from my real life. I would not call them when I am in trouble or sad or in need of a hug. I have however sent texts saying "anyone out tonight - I don't want to go home' and there is always one or two of them willing to sit in a london bar and shoot the sh!t. However, I know real friendships take time. Some of my new friends will naturally drop away and the ones that remain will become real friends. I also have the mums - people who have been through what I have been through and are always ready with a cup of tea and a sympathetic ear. And I have this community. Things I would not have had if my H hadn't left me so broken that I finally needed to turn to people for help.

Anyway, here are my NY resolution. I will continue on my path to finding me ... saying yes to invites even when I don't really want to and asking people for help when I need it. I will trust people more. I will spend time with my kids doing things they want to do. I will live consciously. I will move on.

Quick update. I wrote the above this morning, before everyone had woken up. Two of the mums spent the night here with their children. When everyone else woke up (around 10) I had already tidied up and had made put out a big continental breakfast of croissants and bread, cheese, cherry tomatoes, grapes and cold meats.

They finally left at 4 today after spending the day lazing around the kitchen, eating leftovers, drinking tea and coffee and listening to the children playing in the other rooms.

It was a perfect day and I very much felt like me again. The me before him,

FlySolo,

I read your last 2 posts here as well as the last exchange we had on Paco's thread. I haven't been following your posts before, but from what I read this week, I think I get a sense of where you are.

First, I'm sorry for what you've been going through.

Despite what I wrote on Paco's post, I really admire what you've been doing. I know how difficult this can be. The fact that you were able to take an honest look at yourself is a sign of great courage and wisdom. After my W's BD, I went through the same process and have been working on myself since then.

What is curious, however, is that your description of how you acted when you were hurt during the M resembles how my W acted as well. Yet, in my case, she is the one who left. I always assumed that her way to become "emotionally detached" and close off (to use your own terms) is what changed her feelings toward me.

Anyway, you seem to be doing the right things to be able to rediscover yourself and be happy in life. I wish you the best of luck in your journey

Thank you Kiro. I have read and respect your response on other peoples thread and thank you for taking the time to write the note above. The mirror is a terrible thing but was necessary in order for me to understand my role in the breakdown of our marriage and to [start] to forgive my H for the actions he took. It only happened when I stopped looking at him and trying to fix him. I cannot do that. He has to do that. He is not there yet. First he has to stop blaming me for all his misery.

I will respond on the similarities between myself and your W on your thread. I don't know if it will help but know it is information i share with you from a place of honesty and kindness.

Originally Posted by FlySolo

The mirror is a terrible thing

Can you explain why the mirror was a terrible thing in your case?

In my case, I was more like your H. I criticized, I was controlling, uptight, and perfectionist, I didn't show her appreciation and love, I didn't compliment her... And I also had my own insecurities and self esteem issues.

So my mirror was a very dard place to be. But in your case, from your description, your main issue was the way you reacted to pain by distancing yourself and detaching. This doesn't seem such a dark thing in comparison...

Hi Kiro

I met my H at work. My fianc� (at the time) had been asked to lead a new team over here and I had come with him. The plan was to stay for two years, see a little of Europe, collect bonuses (he was/is and investment banker) and then go home and get married. I didn't need to work but I was going stir crazy in the flat and we agreed I needed an outlet. So I started working. H worked in the same department as me and we started an affair. I didn't think it would last - a symptom of the problems in my relationship or early onset quarter life crises - so I left my BF anyway. Plus H and I weren't right for each other. He worked on the help desk and I was already being fast tracked for a management position. He left school with no qualifications and I had two masters and was considering doing a PhD when I went back home.

That's one ... on some level I thought I was better than him and when things turned sour I let him know in lots of passive aggressive indirect ways.

My exBF was always in the picture. We had been together over 10 years and had known each other since we were 12. I would not give him up. Not because I wanted to go back ... but because he is my link to my past (I do not talk to my parents) and the one I have always counted on to be there for me. My H didn't like it. He thought my ex was always waiting in the wings like a night in shining armour to take me away from the to live in his castle. Whether my H was right or not doesn't matter (for the record, he was right) - it was the fact that I did not consider my H's feelings when choosing to maintain a friendship with my ex. God, how it must have made him feel ... my ex with all his money and his undying love for me. That's two: refusing to see past my own feelings.

At first there was no expectations. I always thought it would end once the novelty wore off. I was always on the look out for signs and, looking back, in those early years, never fully committed. I don't mean looking at other people, but I didn't ever want him to think I was 'too much into him'. I guess that set the groundwork for our relationship. He was more into weekends away and valentines and anniversaries than me. He would plan romantic dinners and holidays. He use to say I lacked sentimentality. I just didn't want him to know how much he meant to me.

Three:. I did not want him to see me be vulnerable so I pretended not to care.

A year into our relationship he decided to retrain as a pilot. He spoke to me about it and I agreed to cover all shared costs as long as he paid for his training. I calculated he would never make it past middle management in his current job and long term it was the best thing for us. I didn't mind too much. We were investing in us. But a part of me, a tiny kernel felt he was taking advantage of me. When he started to earn as much, the kernel grew but I rationalised it by saying he still had his student debts to pay but when they were paid off and he still wasn't contributing his share, the doubt plagued on my mind constantly ... and it started to reflect in my actions. I started making known how 'unimportant' he was. When he was home I started to treat him like he wasn't even here. I wouldn't ask him how his flight went. I would stop listening when he talked. I would talk to everyone in the room but him. I started to live a separate life with the children. He didn't pull away.

So, number four: I pushed him away with my indifference.

Finally ... and this is my hubris - sheer arrogance. I thought I could live without him and I told him in a thousand and one ways that I did not need him.

There were others. Comments whispered as I walked out the room. Refusing to come to bed some nights because I wanted to punish him. Times when I would literally not talk to him for 2 days.

That is the summarised version. The version that focuses on me. I know I do not come out of it well. He is not innocent though. We did it together.

Wow! I am speechless FS. Thank you so much for sharing. You obviously really did an amazing job to understand your share. I am impressed by your courage and honesty.

Do you think you would be able to overcome all this and start all over if he decided to come back?

Sometimes, I wonder if the DBing approach of not initiating contact and giving space makes sense all the time? If I was your H and I lived through this for such a long time, I would feel a huge relief to read what you just wrote here. Even if I decided not to come back, I would have huge respect for your courage and honesty and it would help me heal and look at my share of responsibility. I would feel that you finally understood me for the first time (even if I decide not to say it). And if I still have love in my heart, that would allow it to slowly come back to the surface. The only thing that I could then still ask myself (because it was vague in your post) is whether you can change all that or whether you would repeat the same behavior. Your message showed that you understood what happened but didn�t show if you were ready to fix it.

Sorry for my honesty. I know that most people here don�t recommend initiating such contact. And I could be totally wrong. But my personality seems close enough to your H from your description.

Thank you Kiro - On some level I knew all this whilst it was happening. I knew I made him uncomfortable. I knew I hurt him. Power games and control.

Originally Posted by kiro

Do you think you would be able to overcome all this and start all over if he decided to come back?

I am trying. I did not learn these habits over night. I carry them over from childhood. Also, the hurt I felt was immense. I could function but it was like walking around in a dream - I was there but not there. Numb. I could feed and wash my children. I could go to work. But I was not really there. So, as emotional self preservation is my way of dealing with hurt, and this was a level of hurt I had not felt before, showing appreciation and gratitude for the little scraps he throws me at times is difficult. Not zoning out when he says something hurtful (though he prob. doesn't even realise it) is difficult. I have landed at a friendly but not emotionally invested interactions with him. I ask him about his day, but I don't pry. I am 'present' when he talks about the children. I say "have a great night/day" etc when he leaves. it is a balancing act (I am not sure where lovingly detached turns to pursuit).

With others I am consciously trying to be more thoughtful. I smile more, I try and notice more, and I say thank you more. Practice makes habit.

Originally Posted by kiro

Sometimes, I wonder if the DBing approach of not initiating contact and giving space makes sense all the time? If I was your H and I lived through this for such a long time, I would feel a huge relief to read what you just wrote here. Even if I decided not to come back, I would have huge respect for your courage and honesty and it would help me heal and look at my share of responsibility. I would feel that you finally understood me for the first time (even if I decide not to say it). And if I still have love in my heart, that would allow it to slowly come back to the surface. The only thing that I could then still ask myself (because it was vague in your post) is whether you can change all that or whether you would repeat the same behavior. Your message showed that you understood what happened but didn�t show if you were ready to fix it.

My H and I are in constant contact. He is a devoted father and family is very important to him. I learnt what it meant to be a family from him. I am fortunate as there are others here who have to live (and continue standing) for spouses who have abandoned not just them, but the children. He is a WAS and not a WW. There was no third party and when he left he said he was "unhappy" and didn't know "how to be happy". He dated for a bit back in Oct but I think that was more trying on the single suit (I am single so I SHOULD be dating) and loneliness than he wanted to be with someone else. I think any type of pressure (from me or anyone else) would send him running for the hills. Plus, he spends so much time with the children he would not have time for a proper relationship and he is not one for casual relationships.

At first I followed the rules (don't initiate contact and Yes, No or not response when they initiate), but I worried that for him this is more of the same. There is very little anger in our exchanges and our communication is friendly but not emotionally invested. He temp checks and overall I respond with "thanks", or "no probs". Will I ever share with him what I have learned about myself? I don't know. I think he would have to be open to listening to it and I don't think he is.

Anyway, Kiro - thank you for listening (reading). Even if he never hears any of this, I hope it helps you.

Much love
FS

Yes girl, but the rules are for you...to protect yourself. You know that Fly...your H has a long road to his inner self. And it depends on him to get there. Meanwhile you keep DB. And we all know you are a good DBer! Keep going!

(((HUGS)))

New thread ...

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2831283&#Post2831283