what the heck is happening, is this DB?

[burned]

Old thread.

[lost8]

You got us all fired up here!

[neffer]

Don’t let her cake eat that much B. Even consider that you are getting back some atractiveness when standing for your own. That’s the 180 you need man. B has his b@lls back with him. Yeah!

[burned]

Yeah it's kind of fun.

Responding to AS on the old thread. I think mom meant legal responsibility, not so much moral. For their part, my parents think I have a moral responsibility to drop this lady like a rotten tomato.

Next email was from my dad, who said "moving out of the house was your first mistake. Moving back in would be your second."

[burned]

I don't see how it is attractive to make her feel like her financial security is in jeopardy. I don't see how you can be attracted to someone you're furious at. But I'm doing it anyway.

[Phoenix9]

Be firm, B. You are doing great.

[neffer]

You can’t be financing her A man. If she can see past her nose...it’s about respect B. She must face reality. She is not a child being punished for bad behavior. She is a grown up adult.

[MoveFrwd]

Burned -
I know youre a pretty powerful guy. But you cant MAKE her feel anything. She is in control of her feelings. She's had MONTHS to try to figure out how to secure herself financially. Why is it your job to be her safety net until she finds another one?

Confidence is attractive. Self-assuredness is attractive. Standing up for what you believe in is attractive.

She wont come running to you today with her pants off. But, it shows the blossoming of a new, stronger person. A person that is worthy of being a partner. It will likely take a long time for that relaization to sink in to her head.

But, the way you were going wasnt working.

[burned]

Thanks. Thanks to all for the encouragement. This is just not at all what I expected to happen today. But IC said flat out, here's what you should do, stop asking me to tell you what to do. Make a choice, do it, and then report back to me how it went. Which is also what I'm doing here.

I'm just trying to be really careful about striking a balance between confident and dominant/aggressive. Am I "powerful"? Maybe. Certainly "intense" when I get something in my head. She knows that.

[burned]

Next she said, So then start sending me a check for (certain crazy amount) per month. Can't drive without headlights and tires.

I said: Since I'm paying the mortgage and you sequestered (a 4-digit sum of cash) in an account that I don't have access to, I'm confident that you'll find a way to survive without me having to send that check.

Edit: she said it's school loan money (true) and she kept it because she was afraid I'd do what I'm doing now.

Edit 2: and THEN she pulls out the big guns. I've heard this one before. "I supported you when you were in school, can't you be reasonable?"

Edit 3: "I could get a lawyer and ask for more. That's not a threat, just an option. I want you to be reasonable because we were a significant part of each other's lives."

[Vapo]

Do not overthink it. Start playing it by ear. And lose the fear.

[burned]

Can I say, "The events of the past year have sort of changed the scenario?" I don't want to guilt her, but I want it to be clear that she can't play the "We used to be good together" card because she did in fact betray me, let's not forget.

[Vapo]

Don't be bullied by her. If you cave in now, the extortion will only get worse. Are you in a no fault state?

[Phoenix9]

You’re freeing your balls from her vise grip.

[neffer]

You are not her father man. You are her H. She can’t play victim with that. Don’t get into her game. She is a spoiled child, well you are not her daddy.

[burned]

Yup no fault. She can get up to 50%, less if I claim adultery. Her issue apparently is cash flow BEFORE the settlement.

So here is what I want to say: "W, I love you deeply. I don’t want to deprive you of anything. I’m just trying to protect myself. I can’t afford to pay for two households on my own salary. And unfortunately I can’t be objective about the support you provided when I was in school, in light of the events of the past year."

[Wanted1]

Edit 2: and THEN she pulls out the big guns. I've heard this one before. "I supported you when you were in school, can't you be reasonable?"

This was when you guys were M. That isn't the case anymore. She is the one that wants out of the M. That choice comes with consequences. It's time she starts dealing with those consequences. Sounds to me like she hasn't "lost" anything due to her actions.

Moving back in and cutting off the constant flow of financial support does two things: 1) shows her you are someone she should respect (Yes, she will be pissed, but she will respect you) and that you are a stronger, more confident burned; and 2) she starts to feel the loss of financial security. What does she expect, you to support her after you actually D?

[burned]

Not sure if right now is the moment, but since we are discussing money...I could offer her the alternative (since I'm saying that I can't afford to pay for two separate households on my current salary) that I move back in to save me the cost of rent at the new place.

Edit: I won't have to support her after D. Her half of the net worth is 6 figures. Divide assets, clean break. No kids.

[Wanted1]

Yup no fault. She can get up to 50%, less if I claim adultery. Her issue apparently is cash flow BEFORE the settlement.

So here is what I want to say: "W, I love you deeply. I don’t want to deprive you of anything. NGS. Don't say that, she already knows how you feel about her I’m just trying to protect myself. I can’t afford to pay for two households on my own salary. And unfortunately I can’t be objective about the support you provided when I was in school, in light of the events of the past year."

[Vapo]

Not fertilize your lawn with bull$hit. Get L advice and move back in. Do not make any threats, least of all empty ones. Do not try to bargain with her, it will just show her that she can manipulate you, she just has to find a suitable leverage. Be a man of few words and more action. Talk is cheap. The time for talking is over. Do not trust her words, look at accompanying action.

[burned]

she just has to find a suitable leverage

It's actually kind of fun watching her try each strategy and finding out it doesn't work. Suddenly I'm the one who can read HER like a book.

[FlySolo]

Wow ... a lot can happen in a couple of hours.

Firstly, I am the most reasonable person you will ever meet and my advice in most things is to wait until the big emotions have passed and you can think clearly. This is how I am professionally, and when I can manage it, how I am in my personal life.

... BUT ...

Your W takes manipulative to a whole new level and I even I would come back at her all guns blazing ... "you are being unfair", my [censored].

You will have to speak to a lawyer about what, if any spousal support you are legally required to provide and this would need to be articulated and agreed within some form of separation order. Without a separation order what support you provide for her is UP TO YOU. If you pull back all financial support, then she can insist on putting an agreement in place. She will not want to do this because she knows she is taking you for a ride and she will know that the "I supported you when you were in school" argument is a reach (she can argue future earnings in court and she might win, but can she really afford to pay for lawyers and drag this out).

Vanilla was right - if and when you D, she will still be entitled to the agreed proportion of all assets, including any accounts you hold solely in your name (so there is no hiding it) but by keeping them separate, she can't go on any wild spending sprees on your dime.

Not being a total [censored] but if you let me walk all over you the way she has, and I was of a WW mindset, I probably would have lost respect for you too.

Re the house thing - yes, get legal advice on this too. But if the lawyers say there are no legal reasons why you cant move back in (and unless you are a threat to her person, then there probably isn't), and you want to stick to your guns, prove that you are not a doormat, and you are ready for the emotional onslaught that will undoubtedly happen as a result of you moving back, then you should do it. Don't expect her to respect you (at first), she will be too busy hating you, screaming at you and generally making you as miserable as she is.

Cut her off financially though - FFS, you are paying for her to be comfortable whilst she sleeps with another man.

[FlySolo]

Oh, and she might not know this, but over here you also have to split all debts incurred during the marriage, including debts solely in one or the other parties name .. including student loans. If she has squirrelled away money into a separate account (saying they are to pay for her loans and she then spends this on hotels and holidays, then I suspect there is FA you can do about it).

[neffer]

Yes, get L advice. You need that info to face your future. You need to be serious about finances B. There’s no R into it. She is into WW’s world, she’ll have no mercy to get what she wants. A lawyer advice will help you figure out a fair outcome.

[burned]

Not sure if I heard from Vanilla, that might have been in another thread. Honestly my head is spinning (and I'm at work) so I haven't gotten a chance to read the other threads today.

People kept telling me she was manipulative, but I never saw it. I'm maybe starting to see it.

Actually I feel much more objective when I'm shooting back, than when I was hiding in the foxhole. It's just that it was never in my nature to shoot back. So it's a learning experience. My previous attitude was, "Hey, plenty to go around, let her walk away with it, spare myself the conflict." Not anymore.

I understand most of my rights and obligations. I've consulted with L already and I'm good at self-teaching. I've read a couple books, talked to a few people, read some websites. If she wants more than 50% she will have to duke it out in court, which would be equivalent to burning 20k in a backyard fire. Of course it would also cost me the other 20k. But I have evidence of adultery and witnesses to her confessions thereof (e.g., MC). In my state adultery does not bar spousal support, but it can influence property division. There's a sort of minimum distribution (like 60-40) that the judge is required to go with, from my understanding. And I would push for "property division in lieu of support" which is, take this pile of cash and GTFO.

I will reconnect with L next Monday (we have all week off, so I can do things with professionals who keep the same hours I do).

The house thing is going to be difficult. I'll continue to contemplate that. I could theoretically do it while she's away for Thanksgiving.

I do have a slight concern that she could start using "fear of physical violence" or something to mess with me. I did throw a MAJOR temper tantrum at BD, trashed the house, stabbed a knife into the wall near her bed, and unfortunately pushed something that almost landed on her. So that could definitely work against me if she decides to play the victim. And these days the menfolk don't get no credibility in that realm.

[Vapo]

A word of caution. She might resort to claims of violence, ask the L how to go about defending against that.

She is very much like a school bully. She will extort you until the cows come home. Do you think the school bully respects the victim handing over lunch money every day? No. The only respect is felt when the victim fights back.

[burned]

Not being a total [censored] but if you let me walk all over you the way she has, and I was of a WW mindset, I probably would have lost respect for you too.

Social skills aren't a strength in my family of origin, although we are all extremely intelligent and we like to pretend we're highly rational (I call BS on that one). So I never really understood this weird relationship between conflict and respect. W hated conflict and any time I got mildly frustrated she felt that I was being too critical. I've been the same way. So we NGSed our M to death.

That being said, the day after she said she wants S (about 2 months after BD1), I recall her looking me dead in the eye and asking, "Why would you want to be with someone who is so unsure that she wants to be with you?" My answer was pretty lame. I said, "Because that someone is YOU."

A word of caution. She might resort to claims of violence, ask the L how to go about defending against that.

Yup. But honestly even with reassurance from the L, that is the #1 reason I'm hesitant to move in. That, and the 2-year lease I had to sign on the new place.

She is very much like a school bully. She will extort you until the cows come home. Do you think the school bully respects the victim handing over lunch money every day? No. The only respect is felt when the victim fights back.

Some people have gone out on a limb and said that she was always somewhat of a bully. I didn't see it. I see it now. What happened to my W? Oh well.

Edit: I sort of want to go enjoy my evening now, but the last thing she said was the threat that she would get a L. Do I have to respond to that and perpetuate this noise, or can I let it hang?

[neffer]

So you need the cool, calm, collected version of B.

[Vapo]

She is very much like a school bully. She will extort you until the cows come home. Do you think the school bully respects the victim handing over lunch money every day? No. The only respect is felt when the victim fights back.

Some people have gone out on a limb and said that she was always somewhat of a bully. I didn't see it. I see it now. What happened to my W? Oh well.

Edit: I sort of want to go enjoy my evening now, but the last thing she said was the threat that she would get a L. Do I have to respond to that and perpetuate this noise, or can I let it hang?

For fcuck's sake, what part of Talk is cheap, time for talking is over, did you not understand. Did she ask you a question? No. And even if she did ask you a question, did it warrant an answer? NO! Keep your trap shut and talk with actions.

[neffer]

No more talks for you man. That’s the way she exerts her control over you B. So she applies her victim role. Don’t get in there. Show her you are standing for yourself and getting into movement. Action!

[RyanHun]

Thinking about you this afternoon B. I think tonight of all nights you need to GAL to take your mind off of today's events.

[burned]

Thinking about you this afternoon B. I think tonight of all nights you need to GAL to take your mind off of today's events.

Well, what a coincidence. Tonight is my regularly scheduled board game night with a group of friends I’m really starting to like. And I’m in the weirdest mood. Good, but weird. Party time!

[ovrrnbw]

Wow there's so much going on so quickly.

I'd just stop responding to her for a few days. Take a break and settle down. I did this myself back in May. I was just so stressed and focused on my WW and it really helped me to go out of town and just not even talk to her.

I'd recommend this if you can do so. Go find a beach and a cocktail.

[MoveFrwd]

And put your phone on silent tonight

[Ready2Change]

A word of caution. She might resort to claims of violence, ask the L how to go about defending against that.

This is very important. You can also use your phone to record your interactions.

here is what I want to say: "W, I love you deeply. "

Why do you think this will work? I have not seen anyone here recommend pursing the cheating spouse. Can you show me some examples on this working? As you are doing this research, I am sure you will find many examples of this not working.

[burned]

Yep saying ILY would be indirect violation of the Prime Directive. Ain’t gonna happen. Still true though, for some perverse reason.

No need to record anything. It’s all by text and email. Haven’t seen her FTF in 2 months.

This made me think of a scene from a cool movie called Slammin’ Salmon. There’s a grouchy chef. One waiter goes into the kitchen with a piece of tuna that a customer didn’t like and the chef says WTF it’s perfect and the other guy says “Yeah he wants you to cook this better please” or something and the chef flips out and chars it. Later another guy comes in with a bowl of soup and the chef says WTF and the waiter says, “yeah I mean I told him to go F himself, what are ya gonna do, y’know” and the chef says, “I like you, you’re one of the good ones.”

Respect.

[burned]

One last reflection as I head out to GAL with my phone on Do Not Disturb.

This entire thing started when I said one word to my W that she hasn’t heard from me very in a long time. Just a text message, 2 letters: no.

[burned]

Little update. She texted this morning, sorry I used the card without your permission, I thought it was OK. I said, no worries, I wasn’t clear, and it was OK at the time. She said, well you can tell me if something ever isn’t OK. Then she said, We should proceed with the agreement we discussed, should I do the paperwork or will you? I said, I think it would be best if you did it. She said, OK. I’m sorry you’re hurting, this is really hard.

WTF? I didn’t respond to that. Just sort of confused. But clearly she is going to get the D moving so that she can get her cash. Oh well. Not feeling as confident as yesterday, but what are ya gonna do, I guess.

[MoveFrwd]

Being divorced doesn’t really change anything except the way the paperwork is filled out on your taxes. You are just as likely to get back together divorce or no.

Nice job not taking the bait on the last bit she texted you.

[burned]

That’s reassuring. But clearly I made her realize that I’m not gonna sit around. If she wants money she can ask for it and I’ll review my options in light of what she’s asking for.

I hope it doesn’t come across as defensive/passive. Also WTF is with that bait, it’s like...kind of messed up.

Also I’m really not sure about the house thing, the principal reason for doing it would be to get a reaction from her.

I get SO MOTHERF***ING FRUSTRATED with this f***ing b’tch, it’s like no matter what I do or say she finds a way to put herself back in control. Fffffffffffffff

[burned]

Happy Monday. Brief update from my phone while waiting for my ankle appointment. Sorry about that angry outburst ^^^^^.

Felt good on Friday/Saturday but NGS started creeping back in. Feeling guilty. But everyone on here, and people IRL, think it was the “right thing” to do. My gut tells me it’s wrong so I’m fighting that. Learning new skills here. Counterintuitive. Still fighting the fear. In my mind she’s so powerful, so manipulative.

I told her she can fill out paperwork but I wonder if it might make a strong statement to preempt her on filing. Wanted to run it by the L today but she’s out of town for the week. So it will have to wait. Parents seem to think that it will send the message, to her and to myself, that I am strong enough to face the impending conflict with honor and dignity. And that it’s only the beginning and can be paused or cancelled at any point. And that maybe, just maybe, after a couple power moves from Burned and some time to think about the reality, time with her parents for Thanksgiving to sit there and really think about if this is what she wants, time for the fantasy to keep crumbling, that maybe there were some good aspects to the M...might spark something in her. I don’t buy it, but it’s consistent with what people here are saying, so let’s go with it.

Like I said, I don’t buy it. And over the weekend I got to the point where I can entertain the notion that even if she did make some huge drastic change of heart, I might not want her back. So now I have to think about that aspect, too.

More later. Thoughts or 2x4s welcome. Onward!

[Vapo]

Nope on the filing first statement. You are only doing it to invoke a reaction. Don't do it. You will not find anyone on these boards who will say filing first is/was a good idea.

Do not go worrying yourself what will/would you do if she came begging to take her back. You are waaaaays from there, loooong ways. You can worry about that when/if it happens. There is a good chance that it will not, so it is best not contemplating about it ATM.

Protect yourself first. Cover all the bases, hedge your exposure and risks. Look after your health, and well being. Line up some GAL activities and prepare for holiday blues. It might hit you somewhat, esp. given the fact you will not be spending it with your W.

Know that you will be OK and make plans to thrive.

[Davide]

Burned,

I would disagree with you and anyone who would say to file for D to prove anything to yourself or to attempt to get a reaction out of W. In my mind, the only reason to file for D is because you want D or because you need to protect yourself legally for some reason. If you don't want D, I wouldn't do anything. Trying to do it to provoke a response from her is an attempt to control her. You want to run the opposite way - let her go. If you let her go she may or may not decide to come back, but as long as she feels you are trying to control her there is no way that she comes back.

[burned]

So just demonstrate self-respect by refusing to engage with a bully, and prepare to defend myself if needed. Other than that, get my mind off of it.

I don’t have much else I can do to push back. I’m just being patient and taking care of me now.

Obviously still not detached yet, thinking there’s always a chance. That little hope helps keep me going but also keeps me attached, I think. Spent the weekend with the parents and they’re hammering away at me with the tough love ultra rational approach.

I don’t know why I got so amped up when I started feeling like I had some control and I could fight back. I wish I could bring some of that feeling back.

Read chapter 16 of Robert Greene’s book The Laws of Human Nature about aggression and passive-aggressive types and it was a real eye-opener. Lots more to say about that but not from my phone.

[burned]

as long as she feels you are trying to control her there is no way that she comes back.

That’s why it kind of feels like “cutting her off” backfired. I’m really frustrated, I’m in a sort of damned-if-you-do situation. She can twist it in her favor no matter what. Ughhhh.

It’s frustrating because EVERY time I feel good about taking action, there’s always some way it comes back around and I turn out to have been wrong. But if I do nothing I feel weak. So I can’t refuse to engage, but if I engage I make the sitch worse? But then by making it worse short-term it makes it better long-term? I’m exhausted by all of the thinking.

[burned]

prepare for holiday blues. It might hit you somewhat, esp. given the fact you will not be spending it with your W.

Know that you will be OK and make plans to thrive.

Yup those started hitting me yesterday so I need to be proactive. Reading challenging/engaging books to keep my mind occupied.

Thanksgiving was always my favorite holiday and it was so nice spending it at W’s parents’ place. Something I looked forward to for months ahead of time. So it will be hard. Thankfully my friends invited me to their place, so I will be with good people.

[Davide]

It’s frustrating because EVERY time I feel good about taking action, there’s always some way it comes back around and I turn out to have been wrong. But if I do nothing I feel weak. So I can’t refuse to engage, but if I engage I make the sitch worse? But then by making it worse short-term it makes it better long-term? I’m exhausted by all of the thinking.

You are over-thinking it.

Don't worry about how she will react to your actions. That is her problem. Act in a way that is consistent with your values and what you believe in, that way you win no matter what. Right now you are still trying to base your actions on her and what she is going to do. You have to let go of that. You can't control her reactions.

Your sitch may very well get worse. She may react very poorly to what you do exactly because she feels like she is losing control over you. Again, you can't control that. But if you try to cater to her and her reactions you are definitely not going to get anywhere.

Hang in there. Try to get out and GAL, take your mind off your sitch for a while if you can.

[MoveFrwd]

I told her she can fill out paperwork but I wonder if it might make a strong statement to preempt her on filing. Wanted to run it by the L today but she’s out of town for the week. So it will have to wait. Parents seem to think that it will send the message, to her and to myself, that I am strong enough to face the impending conflict with honor and dignity.

This feels like a backwards line of thinking to me. Like you are pondering the pluses and minuses of filing for divorce. I think you should be much more focused the other way. What are your goals. Is your goal to "make a strong statement"? I doubt it. So what are you trying to gain, learn, do, etc overall? How does this fit in to your plan? STart from that point of view always.

[burned]

Here’s where I’m getting super confused by the “let it be” vs. “take back your b@lls” advice. My instinct is to let it be. Then I do something, like “cutting her off,” which made me feel quite a bit better for a couple days. Which also prodded ger into action. And now I will have to follow through, and it was a weak move because, first, it reinforces her belief that I am trying to control her by not letting her get at the money, and second, because legally speaking she is entitled to it as much as I am. And I’ve done plenty of spending against her wishes, that may be the #1 issue she had during the M.

But other than that I’m dark, and trying not to dwell on what effect it’s having on her. I see no real changes in the sitch. I try to keep in mind the idea that it may feel like she’s getting further away now that I’m not pursuing. But the train is heading down the track, it seems. I’m still willfully refusing to let go, I’m told.

Do I feel ever so slightly better? Maybe. Depends on the day. Reading self-help books about coping with D is apparently a really bad idea. Overwhelming tasks ahead of me. Plus dreading the holidays. Normally we’d be on the way to her parents’ right now, during my favorite time of year. But it’s all different now.

Will something happen in her heart or in her mind when she spends the week with her family? A little increase in doubt, a little bit of wondering? Burned was always the one to carve the turkey. Where is burned? It seems wrong without him. That’s how it plays out in my mind. But the reality is probably more along the lines of, poor W, burned isn’t here but that’s OK, you’re a good person, let’s cheer you up. Ugh.

Plus whatever strategy she takes, aside from ignoring and avoiding (which was always my strategy until BD), I’ll inevitably botch the interaction and dig the hole an inch deeper.

The overall feeling is frustration, because my goal is to “get her back” but my real goal should be “build a life without her” and I’ve been sort of lazy about working toward the latter goal. So, there I am.

[MoveFrwd]

I don’t see anything wrong with your final goal being “Have a successful marriage with my wife”. But then I’d break that down further because that isn’t really actionable at the moment. So what do you need in order to make that happen:
1) adopt successful relationship skills
2) be attractive to my wife
3)....

Then you can break those down further -
1-1) form good interpersonal habits
1-2) develop skills for maintaining a healthy personal attitude
1-3) develop skills for maintaining a happy home
And then you can break those down further and so on until you get to things that are actionable. It’s too hard to say “how does INSERT ACTION HERE match with my overall goal?” If you don’t have it broken down to show how it fits in to your overall structure.

You need a map because it feels rudderless right now. And with that, you lose direction and focus and can become “stuck” or “frustrated” because you have no way of measuring your progress except by what your wife does.

You took the time to set goals for yourself - why would you NOT follow them? YOU are the priority. Nobody else is going to do t for you.

[burned]

I don’t see anything wrong with your final goal being “Have a successful marriage with my wife”.

Good, because that's my goal. Unfortunately I get the vibe sometimes that it's not the right goal to have. But I accept that it is MY goal, for better or for worse.

But then I’d break that down further because that isn’t really actionable at the moment. So what do you need in order to make that happen:
1) adopt successful relationship skills
2) be attractive to my wife
3)....

Nothing I do seems to attract her back. That's part of where the frustration comes from. So then I'll look at the actionable items:

Then you can break those down further -
1-1) form good interpersonal habits --getting better at this, with everyone except her, obv.
1-2) develop skills for maintaining a healthy personal attitude --this is one I need to focus on. Today I'm working on a day off, which does help me feel a bit better about my ability to make a difference in the world, achieve meaningful things, etc.
1-3) develop skills for maintaining a happy home --this is the one I seem to struggle with, because it always ends with me realizing the things I could have done better with W. So, now I realize those things. Better write them down so I remember them like 5 years from now when I need them again.

You need a map because it feels rudderless right now. And with that, you lose direction and focus and can become “stuck” or “frustrated” because you have no way of measuring your progress except by what your wife does.

Here's where, despite months of thinking about DB, I repeatedly fall back into the trap of "Well if the goal is R, isn't it ALL about how she reacts?" No! But my emotions are a nuisance, they say, "You're losing her, try harder!" And then I get feedback like the above, which points me back in the right direction. Because of goal 2, be attractive. Maybe some sub-goals of 2 should be, "Stick with DB" and "Stop trying to win her back" and "Live your own life for you."

Nobody else is going to do t for you.

This is what IC and I have been working on for weeks. Why do I get stuck there? What is it about me that expects everyone else to handle it for me? "Take care of yourself so that I don't have to" was a statement that W kept repeating after BD. At the time I was angry and figured, She just wants me to go away so that she doesn't have to feel guilty. But maybe it was more than that, and maybe it was a fundamental part of the breakdown of the M, that I was leaning so heavily on her that she felt smothered and couldn't be herself. (Why she chose A as a solution to that, I may never know).

[Vapo]

Here's where, despite months of thinking about DB, I repeatedly fall back into the trap of "Well if the goal is R, isn't it ALL about how she reacts?" No! But my emotions are a nuisance, they say, "You're losing her, try harder!" And then I get feedback like the above, which points me back in the right direction. Because of goal 2, be attractive. Maybe some sub-goals of 2 should be, "Stick with DB" and "Stop trying to win her back" and "Live your own life for you."

Months DB-ing? Dude, you only joined in August. 3 months is nothing in DB time...

[FlySolo]

[quote=burned] Months DB-ing? Dude, you only joined in August. 3 months is nothing in DB time...

... but I get how burned feels ... these short months feels like a life time.

[lost8]

3 months is nothing....I'm into 5 and am just seeing scraps of improvement, but it is mostly about how I feel about myself and how I see what life will be like starting over and that is the success. You have to continue to work on you if she doesn't want a good man it will be her loss.

[MoveFrwd]

I’m on my phone so I can’t quote easily

1) I said “BE ATTRACTIVE to your wife.” To me, that is learning about YOU and what it means to be attractive. It doesn’t deal with whether or not she is attracted. So things like we’ve been talking about -Detach, GAL, boundaries, independence, etc come in.

2) my lists were very incomplete. It’s up to you to take that framework and run with it. The point is to make “mini-goals” that you can judge yourself to. If your only goal is that top level one of R, then you will never feel success. By breaking it down into accomplishable milestones, you can find those victories and build momentum.

3) be careful with what’s a goal. To me “live your life for you” is less a goal than a mantra. How do you measure that? I would instead focus on what things you do would show to yourself that you are achieving that? THATS how you can measure whether or not are doing that or not?

None of this is easy. Or fast. It takes effort and accountability. And persistence. And patience.

What you are doing isn’t working. You are stuck in a repeating cycle of disappointment. How will you break out of it? Not only that - how will you do that in a way that aligns with your goals? THAT is up to you!

[Phoenix9]

Month 4 for me. That's still considered "nothing", even though a lot of changes have been made and sticking.

What is considered a "good" DBing time? If such a thing exists?

[burned]

FS: you said a couple of things that got my mind churning over the weekend, and I wanted to follow up. This is an important area of growth for me, in the sense that I’m too nice and not very good at reading people.

Your W takes manipulative to a whole new level and I even I would come back at her all guns blazing ... "you are being unfair", my [censored].

Can you explain how you reached that conclusion? If it requires too much time going back through old posts, that’s fine. The next one is more important:

Not being a total [censored] but if you let me walk all over you the way she has, and I was of a WW mindset, I probably would have lost respect for you too.

I’m having trouble understanding this concept, and it’s a recurring theme around here. Is there anything you can add to explain how this works? Sorry I’m dense...

[RyanHun]

B,
I think what FS was referring to was things like her using the card without first asking etc. She has left, that card needs to be cancelled ASAP. There should be no joint accounts, cards etc. Just one example I could see looking back a bit.

[burned]

Yeah, that’s definitely one of the ways. I’m mainly trying to be aware of the subtle ways in which she uses my NGS against me. Like, making me feel guilty. I don’t know how she does it, it’s almost like it just sort of happens. If we ever R I think this will be one of the things I will have made the most progress on, along with my NGS (I hope), just being aware of her “tricks” and trying to build a genuine relationship. (I wonder if she uses the same tricks on OM, or if maybe they do have the kind of healthy relationship I thought I had with her because I wasn’t aware of the tricks.)

[RyanHun]

B,
I also have NGS but am progressing on that a lot. She isn't making you feel guilty, NGS/you are making yourself feel guilty. Ask yourself what someone with self respect and who values themselves would do before responding. You may not feel confident in it but you really do know what is best and right for you, do it and don't feel guilty about any of it.

[FlySolo]

B - I am on my phone and on the train so can’t really quote or respond fully. I will do so later when I get a quiet moment at work.

The crux of it is that when you are in the middle of it all you see each event, each insult, each act of manipulation in isolation. Then something happens, and we reel from the new insult or we take hope from a little act of apparent kindness. Read back through your thread. Read it as an outsider looking in. What advice would you give that person?

I can bet, without a shadow of a doubt, that advice would be to stand up for yourself. To cut her off financially (or course, within the constraints set out by your lawyer). Do not pay for her to have an affair - she is making you a mug. Sadly, you know this, so on top of everything else, you are hating yourself for being treated like a mug. BTW - my definition of mug is someone who knows that they are being taken advantage of, knows the person taking advantage of them knows they are taking advantage, but allows it anyway in the hopes that somehow it will lead to them not being taken advantage of. Can you see how futile it is?

Oh - I am better at giving advice than taking it. Rationally I can see my H is a selfish [censored]. I know he has taken advantage of me financially and emotionally and he keeps doing it because I fear, and I know he knows that I fear, what will happen if I stand up for myself. So, I know just how hard standing up for yourself is. I make tiny dents in this daily. But, I am not financing an affair ...

[burned]

someone who knows that they are being taken advantage of, knows the person taking advantage of them knows they are taking advantage, but allows it anyway in the hopes that somehow it will lead to them not being taken advantage of. Can you see how futile it is?

I think this is where I struggle most. Because when I read about everyone else, I see actions that are self-centered, perpetrated by self-centered WASes who manipulate us, either overtly or in subtle ways. But when I think of my W, I’m stuck seeing her as a kind person who is suffering, who deserves to have what she wants even if it’s not me, whose actions are reasonably straightforward...etc. I had trouble starting DB after joining the board because I didn’t see her as being wayward, or didn’t want to see her that way. So I took the WAW approach and tried to be friendly. As you can see, I cycled through moments when I was convinced that she was still with OM despite her being very clear that she wasn’t. But that wouldn’t be the first time she lied. So now I have no idea.

The problem is and has been that she doesn’t have her own income, but she worked in the past, so the money in our savings is hers, too, both legally and in a concrete sense. So I feel obligated to let her spend it. And it’s all fungible so it doesn’t matter much if she uses the credit card now and I have to pay it off with savings. And lastly, I don’t ask her when I use the card. It’s all really murky.

What I’m trying to figure out is whether my guilt and sense of obligation is mine, or whether she is Scarlett O’Hara playing me like a fiddle. I’m learning that she’s good at shifting the blame and making others feel guilty. And I think she has always controlled me that way because it works. But I have also controlled her that way.

Maybe I’m not explaining it well because it’s confusing. In the end I’m still not sure if she knows she is taking advantage. To me it seems less intentional than that. I have convinced myself (correctly or incorrectly) that she is now just a woman who plans to be divorced and wants access to her money so that she can move on with her life. What difference does it make what happened in the past? I’m angry at what she did and how it affected me. And I feel used. But I don’t see a point in being “difficult” during the D just because of how we arrived at D. And she doesn’t seem like the type who will try to get more than what’s hers. Maybe this is extreme NGS and she is using it against me? The way she made a “threat that isn’t a threat” was very strange, not typical of her. Almost like the more obstacles I create, the more she shows her true colors. That’s a translation of something AnotherStander wrote a few days ago.

And then at that point it starts to become clear that she is being nice to get what she wants because she knows I will cooperate if she passes herself off as cooperative. Next thing you know, I think to myself, “She really is a monster, she is still with OM, he is coaching, they are both facilitating each other’s divorces, and when they are finally rid of their stupid spouses they will live happily ever after with a house I helped to buy and repair and a pile of cash.” I get resentful. And in that scenario she seems ruthless, calculating, and cold. But she passes herself off as being nice and just wanting to get out of this loveless M with a minimum of fuss.

Then other people say, OK, then why didn’t she have the guts to sit you down and tell you she wanted out? One feeble attempt to see if I wanted to do MC (before the A began) but she didn’t I didn’t. Then the A happened. And after all the things she said after BD, I feel like it’s primarily my fault, and that she had no other way of getting out from my controlling grip (exit affair)...and I am to blame, for the most part, or at least it feels that way.

Impossible to know what’s real and what isn’t. And difficult for me to distinguish what comes from her influence vs. what is internal. Because I have internalized her ideas about how and why everything happened. But then I’m left with the feeling that it doesn’t all add up.

Does any of this make sense? I think I’m confused by it because it’s confusing. Or because I don’t want to admit that my dear W is the same as all the other WWs. She was always such a very nice person. Or, depending on who you ask, she pretended to be, so that she could get what she wants, and I was blind to it for a decade. That makes her sound like a sociopath. It’s all very bewildering.

But it’s all a lot of ruminating, unless by analyzing it I can arrive at some kind of insight that allows me to influence the course of events. Or at least just get better at letting go.

[AnotherStander]

Month 4 for me. That's still considered "nothing", even though a lot of changes have been made and sticking.

What is considered a "good" DBing time? If such a thing exists?

It's a great question because most people come here with unrealistic expectations about how long it takes to save a M. I've been around here a little bit and I've seen many sitches play out. And knocking on the door of 60, I've seen many play out IRL as well. Here is the pattern I've seen time and time again:

1. BD
2. LBS is sad and desperate and needy and doing anything to get WAS back, frantic that everything they are doing is "wrong" and desperate to know what are the "right" things to do to make things normal again
3. LBS works on themselves following a bunch of "steps" all with the thought of bringing the WAS back
4. WAS is still not interested, so LBS declares they are over WAS and moving on and will be fine with or without the WAS, while both feet are still planted firmly in 2 and 3
5. LBS realizes this really isn't going to "go back to normal" or be cured overnight
6. LBS starts rebuilding their life and REALLY letting the WAS go
7. LBS starts coming out of the fog and realizes the folly of 2-4 above
8. LBS drops the rope, embraces GAL, starts to find happiness again
9. WAS discovers that the life of freedom and fun they thought they were achieving is not there, begins working on themselves and wrestling with their internal demons
10. WAS starts to miss the LBS

I bet if I asked any of you, even the newer people, to name who here is in steps 2 and 3 and who is in 8 you'd be able to tell me with 95% accuracy for anyone except yourself. Just about all of you that have been here less than a year are in 2 and 3. Most of you are trying hard to convince yourselves you are in 6-8, but you are not even close. And let me tell you, you CANNOT make any wise decisions about ANYTHING when you are in 2-3. This is why we constantly counsel LBS's to WAIT before making any decisions regarding S or D. You are not in the right frame of mind, and worse, you DON'T KNOW you're not in the right frame of mind.

PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.

Now that I've said that, not all sitches make it to these steps but many (maybe even most) do:

11. WAS wants to reconcile
12A. LBS has moved on to the point that they no longer want to reconcile with the WAS. Reasons usually include "I never want to go through that again" and/ or "once I came out of the fog I realized he/she wasn't that great of a person after all."
12B. LBS decides to give recon a try
13. Recon

Of course every LBS wants to know how long it takes to get to 11. The answer is: a lot longer than most have patience for. I've seen it happen in less than a year maybe twice. I've seen more in the 1-2 year range. I've seen most in the 2+ year range. I know no one wants to hear that, but I think if you know the reality of this you'll realize just how long the road is ahead of you. If you have to run a marathon I am not doing you a service by telling you it's only a mile long, then when you get to the mile marker tell you "oops it's a little longer" and such. You need to know how long a journey it really is.

[burned]

Yikes. I’m maybe at step 3 on a good day. I’ve had a small taste of step 4. I’d be happy just to get to step 10 because I have no evidence that she has ever missed me. But as you’ve said, even if she did she wouldn’t provide any evidence.

Two years. The thing is, it’s not like we can just “wait” 2 years. We have to live life in the meantime. But in a funny way, what you’re saying is reassuring. Because it means that D isn’t “the abyss” and even if you HAVE moved on she might still swing by and say hi.

The paradox (and maybe this is just me) is that if you knew that she would definitely be back in 1 year, 11 months, and 4 days...you’d sit there waiting rather than putting in the work. And then she wouldn’t be back. Or she would check and still not be interested. On the other hand it would be nice to know that putting in the work will result in that. That’s when people jump in and say, the work is worth putting in no matter what, and you have a long life ahead of you, with or without her.

I guess what makes me nervous in my sitch is that she seems to be pushing for D before reaching step 9. Let’s go with the idea that D isn’t a dealbreaker. And that like you said before, currently she feels that this is her only option. (Maybe because she has committed to OM and wants to bring that out into the open. Whatever.)

[AnotherStander]

I think this is where I struggle most. Because when I read about everyone else, I see actions that are self-centered, perpetrated by self-centered WASes who manipulate us, either overtly or in subtle ways. But when I think of my W, I’m stuck seeing her as a kind person who is suffering, who deserves to have what she wants even if it’s not me, whose actions are reasonably straightforward...etc. I had trouble starting DB after joining the board because I didn’t see her as being wayward, or didn’t want to see her that way. So I took the WAW approach and tried to be friendly. As you can see, I cycled through moments when I was convinced that she was still with OM despite her being very clear that she wasn’t. But that wouldn’t be the first time she lied. So now I have no idea.

The problem is and has been that she doesn’t have her own income, but she worked in the past, so the money in our savings is hers, too, both legally and in a concrete sense. So I feel obligated to let her spend it. And it’s all fungible so it doesn’t matter much if she uses the credit card now and I have to pay it off with savings. And lastly, I don’t ask her when I use the card. It’s all really murky.

Burned you are spinning. You're giving her way too much head space. Please stop second-guessing every little thing you do because that makes you look very indecisive. Stick to your guns. You've consulted us, your L, and your IC and we've all pretty much told you the same thing as far as what to do. Yet you still want to sit here and explain why you think we are all wrong. But your WAS is not unique. She does not deserve special treatment. Whether she's doing what she's doing because she's a lying cheater or because she's hurt and damaged doesn't really matter. She's doing it, she doesn't know why, and you will never know why. No matter what you do right now she's not coming back, that's way down the road if it happens. So quit worrying about whether you're causing more damage, the answer is no, you are not.

Maybe I’m not explaining it well because it’s confusing. In the end I’m still not sure if she knows she is taking advantage. To me it seems less intentional than that. I have convinced myself (correctly or incorrectly) that she is now just a woman who plans to be divorced and wants access to her money so that she can move on with her life.

The problem is she has an entitlement mentality like all WAS's. And it's a hole that can never be filled. You can toss more and more and more into it and she will just demand you keep throwing it in. So let your L and the courts determine your legal obligations because you will never satisfy her desires in this regard.

Next thing you know, I think to myself, “She really is a monster, she is still with OM, he is coaching, they are both facilitating each other’s divorces, and when they are finally rid of their stupid spouses they will live happily ever after with a house I helped to buy and repair and a pile of cash.” I get resentful. And in that scenario she seems ruthless, calculating, and cold. But she passes herself off as being nice and just wanting to get out of this loveless M with a minimum of fuss.

Most WAS's seem like monsters, but they're really just very selfish. They are placing their wants and needs above everyone else's in their life. They are causing a train wreck and shrugging their shoulders at the damage. I fully believe they should NOT get a free pass for this. Do not ever dismiss her responsibility in making this mess, sure you may have made mistakes in the M but we all do. This is on her, and she should feel some fallout from it. That's not revenge, that's just her learning that her poor decisions have ramifications. It's a life lesson.

And after all the things she said after BD, I feel like it’s primarily my fault, and that she had no other way of getting out from my controlling grip (exit affair)...and I am to blame, for the most part, or at least it feels that way.

That's 100% NGS.

I think I’m confused by it because it’s confusing. Or because I don’t want to admit that my dear W is the same as all the other WWs.

BINGO.

[Twofeet]

AS if you had to judge your own sitch would you be in 8 or would you be in 12A with step 11 getting skipped?

I'm guessing in some sitch 12a comes before 11 and then it's too late for WAS, or WAS never hits 11, but regrets their decision, does nothing about it, and regrets or has to live with it for the rest of there life. Something like that is pretty sad.

[AnotherStander]

Two years. The thing is, it’s not like we can just “wait” 2 years. We have to live life in the meantime.

Exactly right, and that's the rub. If you're just sitting around waiting for her you never get to those later steps. And 5-8 must happen before 10 does.

But in a funny way, what you’re saying is reassuring. Because it means that D isn’t “the abyss” and even if you HAVE moved on she might still swing by and say hi.

Quite right. Get this, my ex invited me to Thanksgiving at her mom's house. I'm not saying it's a recon attempt, but here we are years past BD and she's reaching out in surprising ways. I haven't been to her mom's in years, since we were separated.

The paradox (and maybe this is just me) is that if you knew that she would definitely be back in 1 year, 11 months, and 4 days...you’d sit there waiting rather than putting in the work. And then she wouldn’t be back. Or she would check and still not be interested. On the other hand it would be nice to know that putting in the work will result in that. That’s when people jump in and say, the work is worth putting in no matter what, and you have a long life ahead of you, with or without her.

Yes, you get it! So there it is, the ONLY path to recon is for you to truly let go of her. Easier said than done I know. This is why it's a marathon, because letting go is the hardest part and takes a lot of time. The sooner you let go the faster your recon will happen if it happens. But you can't pretend to let go, you really have to. And THAT is the trick.

[burned]

Please stop second-guessing every little thing you do because that makes you look very indecisive. Stick to your guns. You've consulted us, your L, and your IC and we've all pretty much told you the same thing as far as what to do.

Understood. And I appreciate your bluntness because it helps me see the EFFECTS of what I say, despite my intions. I’m learning to pay more attention to how I come across, not just what I want to say. That’s an important 180, for sure.

And I’m fighting the worst case of NGS since the 1917 epidemic of Spanish NGS-fluenza.

I think it’s safe to say that I can be fairly tough with W now and as long as it’s not cruel or punitive, I’m good to go. Hmm, now that I typed that, it sounds a lot like what I was told here weeks ago.

[FlySolo]

]Because when I read about everyone else, I see actions that are self-centered, perpetrated by self-centered WASes who manipulate us, either overtly or in subtle ways.

This is what I read when reading your thread. It is probably what people think when reading my thread. But I do not have the depth of feeling for your W that you do. I do not have your memories or your broken heart.

But when I think of my W, I’m stuck seeing her as a kind person who is suffering, who deserves to have what she wants even if it’s not me, whose actions are reasonably straightforward...etc.

It is OK to still remember the woman she was. It is OK to want to understand the why. This is one of the steps to acceptance and being able to move on in a compassionate and understanding way. But understanding the why does not necessarily justify the actions. It just sets the foundation for forgiveness. For now concentrate on you and getting yourself to a place where you are happy with who you are.

So I took the WAW approach and tried to be friendly.

Is there a difference in approach? My H is a WA and I have tried the friendly approach.

The problem is and has been that she doesn’t have her own income, but she worked in the past, so the money in our savings is hers, too, both legally and in a concrete sense. So I feel obligated to let her spend it. And it’s all fungible so it doesn’t matter much if she uses the credit card now and I have to pay it off with savings. And lastly, I don’t ask her when I use the card. It’s all really murky.

No one is saying he unfair. Just that you draw a line. Use your own moral compass (and legal advice) to decide what is fair and what you can live with. You need to be able to look in the mirror and see a man that you are proud of.

If it were me, I would:

a) Cancel all the joint credit cards - if there is money still owing on them use the money in your shared savings to pay off the debt. It wouldn't matter to me who acquired the debt - it is shared debt and should be paid off 50/50.
b) Close all shared savings accounts - split the remaining money in those accounts 50/50. Again, it would not matter to me who put more money in.

If she wants to p!ss the money up the wall on holidays and nights out with OM that is up to her. It also becomes up to her how she pays for her tuition and her living expenses. If the savings don't cover it, then she will HAVE TO GET A JOB.

PS - I moved out at 17 and worked two part time jobs whilst doing my undergrad. I did my post grad whilst holding down a full time job. It is not beyond reason that she could get herself a job. She is an adult and should face the same responsibilities as all adults.

I’m learning that she’s good at shifting the blame and making others feel guilty ... And then at that point it starts to become clear that she is being nice to get what she wants because she knows I will cooperate if she passes herself off as cooperative.

^^^^ this is important because it says you know exactly what she is doing. This is what I meant by manipulative. If I was of a wayward mentality, happily spending my time with OM, finishing my course, without a care in the world for those I'm hurting, then I would continue guilting you into paying my way for me.

The way she made a “threat that isn’t a threat” was very strange, not typical of her. Almost like the more obstacles I create, the more she shows her true colors. That’s a translation of something AnotherStander wrote a few days ago.

AnotherStander is very wise

Like yours my H does the friendly, co-operative thing too, right up until I stand up for myself. Then the bully comes out and I get called names (selfish, cold, unemotional, not caring about your children). Your W seems to resort to distressed child "you're being unfair". Both responses show immaturity and, if we weren't stuck in the middle of it, we would both find laughable.

Their true colors come out when they are challenged or aren't getting their own way. Mine, strangely enough, shows his true colors when he is suspicious of what I have been doing.

[lost8]

Bravo AS, first I have seen a timeline laid out like this....and it is spot on. I am firmly in #7 and am feeling happy again even not knowing how things will turn out.

[Vapo]

Bravo AS, first I have seen a timeline laid out like this....and it is spot on. I am firmly in #7 and am feeling happy again even not knowing how things will turn out.

Well done lost. Reaching #7 in 6 months post BD is awesome, I think it took me about 18 months, possibly longer. 4 years and some monht in and I think I am at a solid #10. Just the other day, when I came to pick up the kids, she said she apologized for her A, said that she still loves me and in the same sentence said that she met someone. Talk about confusing...

[AnotherStander]

AS if you had to judge your own sitch would you be in 8 or would you be in 12A with step 11 getting skipped?

Here's the thing about 11, you never know if it's really been skipped or if it's still in the future. I mention now and then that I have a friend that reconciled with his ex after around 10 years. I read of a recon once that happened 30 years after D. Crazy! Anyway what I can say is yes I've moved on. I have my own independent life now, in some ways I'm the same person and in a lot of ways I'm not. I'm fiercely independent now, so much so that I don't know if I could ever be married again to anyone (and honestly I ask myself what would be the point at my age, it's not like I'm going to start another family). My ex and I, we still love each other despite everything and I think we will have a life-long bond. But getting remarried, moving back in together and being intimate again, I'm not going to say it's impossible but I just can't imagine it.

[MoveFrwd]

Im going to try this again, because I felt like I was being unclear without the quotes lol.

I don’t see anything wrong with your final goal being “Have a successful marriage with my wife”.

Good, because that's my goal. Unfortunately I get the vibe sometimes that it's not the right goal to have. But I accept that it is MY goal, for better or for worse.

It's fine that it is your goal now. I dont think that it will stay your goal forever. But I would say it is almost everyone's idea when they come here. Why else would have you have signed up for this site?? The key is that the steps you need to take to achieve this arent always readily apparent, and are often extremely counterintuitive. Hopefully, you have learned a lot since joining about ways in which to do that. The point of my original post to you was to help you find a way to ORGANIZE the actions you want to take and UNDERSTAND how they can help you to achieve this goal.

The other important part is that by ACHIEVING these mini-goals, you can feel pride and progress even if you never reach your main goal. In other words, if you are a boy scout selling popcorn and you set a goal of $100,000 in sales, you may need to find other ways to judge yourself besides whether or not you achieve that milestone in order to feel proud of your accomplishments - for example, year-over-year growth, local ranking, number of new contributors, and so on. Right now, from what I can tell, your only goal is to regain your marriage....you are setting yourself up for failure if thats the case.

1) adopt successful relationship skills
2) be attractive to my wife
3)....

Nothing I do seems to attract her back. That's part of where the frustration comes from. So then I'll look at the actionable items:

Again, Im not focused on her RESPONSE to you. Im focused on what YOU can do and grade yourself on. Theres a difference between being attractive and attracting a certain person. So what can you do to BE attractive? Detach, GAL, new clothes, self confidence, etc etc etc

Also, this is just a starting point for you to start considering HOW to set up this structure for yourself. You dont need to use my words, because I cant really set your goals for you. But I want you to think in terms of things you can control. And things you can easily JUDGE.

You need a map because it feels rudderless right now. And with that, you lose direction and focus and can become “stuck” or “frustrated” because you have no way of measuring your progress except by what your wife does.

Here's where, despite months of thinking about DB, I repeatedly fall back into the trap of "Well if the goal is R, isn't it ALL about how she reacts?" No! But my emotions are a nuisance, they say, "You're losing her, try harder!" And then I get feedback like the above, which points me back in the right direction. Because of goal 2, be attractive. Maybe some sub-goals of 2 should be, "Stick with DB" and "Stop trying to win her back" and "Live your own life for you."

I mean, it kind of is.....but you cant control it, so it shouldnt be your focus. You CAN control everything that you do or say. And putting that into this framework would help you to identify positive steps.

[Twofeet]

AS if you had to judge your own sitch would you be in 8 or would you be in 12A with step 11 getting skipped?

Here's the thing about 11, you never know if it's really been skipped or if it's still in the future. I mention now and then that I have a friend that reconciled with his ex after around 10 years. I read of a recon once that happened 30 years after D. Crazy! Anyway what I can say is yes I've moved on. I have my own independent life now, in some ways I'm the same person and in a lot of ways I'm not. I'm fiercely independent now, so much so that I don't know if I could ever be married again to anyone (and honestly I ask myself what would be the point at my age, it's not like I'm going to start another family). My ex and I, we still love each other despite everything and I think we will have a life-long bond. But getting remarried, moving back in together and being intimate again, I'm not going to say it's impossible but I just can't imagine it.

Not trying to take over burned's thread. I just want to respond to this. I am still young enough that I could find a new W get M and have another child or 2. However, I am extremely satisfied and blessed with the three children I have now and I don't really want anymore at this point. I just don't see a need to ever get M again. Someone like burned is young enough he could definitely get M again to start a family, or whatever his reasons. Personally, with my own sitch I just don't see the point unless there was some benefit or need over just a LTR with a W. Now if W came back wanting a MR and she demonstrated changes and growth I would do that. This would be because of shared history/bond and the three children we have together. Maybe I am being too practical in my thought process. Even back in HS I never believed in soul mates or the "one." I know W did then and maybe she still does. I have always believed that its all about choices.

[burned]

I got logged out and then my password didn’t work. Should I be concerned? Has that happened to anyone else?

[Twofeet]

AS if you had to judge your own sitch would you be in 8 or would you be in 12A with step 11 getting skipped?

Here's the thing about 11, you never know if it's really been skipped or if it's still in the future. I mention now and then that I have a friend that reconciled with his ex after around 10 years. I read of a recon once that happened 30 years after D. Crazy! Anyway what I can say is yes I've moved on. I have my own independent life now, in some ways I'm the same person and in a lot of ways I'm not. I'm fiercely independent now, so much so that I don't know if I could ever be married again to anyone (and honestly I ask myself what would be the point at my age, it's not like I'm going to start another family). My ex and I, we still love each other despite everything and I think we will have a life-long bond. But getting remarried, moving back in together and being intimate again, I'm not going to say it's impossible but I just can't imagine it.

Not trying to take over burned's thread. I just want to respond to this. I am still young enough that I could find a new W get M and have another child or 2. However, I am extremely satisfied and blessed with the three children I have now and I don't really want anymore at this point. I just don't see a need to ever get M again. Someone like burned is young enough he could definitely get M again to start a family, or whatever his reasons. Personally, with my own sitch I just don't see the point unless there was some benefit or need over just a LTR with a W. Now if W came back wanting a MR and she demonstrated changes and growth I would do that. This would be because of shared history/bond and the three children we have together. Maybe I am being too practical in my thought process. Even back in HS I never believed in soul mates or the "one." I know W did then and maybe she still does. I have always believed that its all about choices.

Sorry, should say LTR with a woman, not W.

[burned]

The thought of being remarried is so foreign to me. Even the thought of having to get to know someone new is weird. The thought of W being in a committed relationship, with someone other than me, is more unpleasant to think about than the A. Can’t figure that one out.

[FlySolo]

The thought of W being in a committed relationship, with someone other than me, is more unpleasant to think about than the A. Can’t figure that one out.

I get this. About a month ago I ran into H on a date. I completely lost the plot and behaved in a way that I am ashamed of. I have not paid her any mind since because I know that he is in no way committed to her. dont ask me how i know, i just do. He is not ready and he is broken and frankly he spends too much time with me to be building any type of meaningful relationship with anyone else. If anything, if there is still something going on i feel sorry for her.

if I thought he was building a life with someone else, then maybe that would be the kick I need to move beyond step 3 ...

[Twofeet]

The thought of being remarried is so foreign to me. Even the thought of having to get to know someone new is weird. The thought of W being in a committed relationship, with someone other than me, is more unpleasant to think about than the A. Can’t figure that one out.

Could be NGS, could be oneitis. Could be loyal to a fault.

Loyal dogs are loyal dogs. It takes a lot to earn my loyalty, but once you have it you have it for life. I have to be careful because it can be to my own detriment and I have to catch myself. You may be in a similar boat. My W treated people as much more disposable, and it would cause tension between us. It's good to be loyal until it hurts you and sets you back. Then you have to just let go.

[neffer]

Future is uncertain B, don´t get into those mind tricks. You can control what you can control: yourself.

[AnotherStander]

I am still young enough that I could find a new W get M and have another child or 2. However, I am extremely satisfied and blessed with the three children I have now and I don't really want anymore at this point.

Nothing against people that start new families, but personally I am of the exact same mind on this as you. My kids mean the world to me, and starting a new family seems like it would be watering down their importance to me. I want to devote whatever time I can afford to them, and if I started a new family I know my kids would get a lot less attention than they do now. I just don't want that, they are my priority and I want them to always be my priority.

Maybe I am being too practical in my thought process. Even back in HS I never believed in soul mates or the "one." I know W did then and maybe she still does. I have always believed that its all about choices.

Absolutely agree. Love is a verb, not a noun. It's something you do, not something that just happens. Work is required. If someone (WAS) quits putting in the work it's because they chose to, not because it just happened to them.

I got logged out and then my password didn’t work. Should I be concerned? Has that happened to anyone else?

Happens to me every once in a while. It unexpectedly logs me out and since I log in so infrequently (because it normally stays logged in) I usually punch in the wrong PW a few times before getting back in. One time I was using the right PW and it wasn't working, I finally gave up and tried again the next day and it logged in just fine.

[Phoenix9]

Month 4 for me. That's still considered "nothing", even though a lot of changes have been made and sticking.

What is considered a "good" DBing time? If such a thing exists?

It's a great question because most people come here with unrealistic expectations about how long it takes to save a M. I've been around here a little bit and I've seen many sitches play out. And knocking on the door of 60, I've seen many play out IRL as well. Here is the pattern I've seen time and time again:

1. BD
2. LBS is sad and desperate and needy and doing anything to get WAS back, frantic that everything they are doing is "wrong" and desperate to know what are the "right" things to do to make things normal again
3. LBS works on themselves following a bunch of "steps" all with the thought of bringing the WAS back
4. WAS is still not interested, so LBS declares they are over WAS and moving on and will be fine with or without the WAS, while both feet are still planted firmly in 2 and 3
5. LBS realizes this really isn't going to "go back to normal" or be cured overnight
6. LBS starts rebuilding their life and REALLY letting the WAS go
7. LBS starts coming out of the fog and realizes the folly of 2-4 above
8. LBS drops the rope, embraces GAL, starts to find happiness again
9. WAS discovers that the life of freedom and fun they thought they were achieving is not there, begins working on themselves and wrestling with their internal demons
10. WAS starts to miss the LBS

I bet if I asked any of you, even the newer people, to name who here is in steps 2 and 3 and who is in 8 you'd be able to tell me with 95% accuracy for anyone except yourself. Just about all of you that have been here less than a year are in 2 and 3. Most of you are trying hard to convince yourselves you are in 6-8, but you are not even close. And let me tell you, you CANNOT make any wise decisions about ANYTHING when you are in 2-3. This is why we constantly counsel LBS's to WAIT before making any decisions regarding S or D. You are not in the right frame of mind, and worse, you DON'T KNOW you're not in the right frame of mind.

PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.

Now that I've said that, not all sitches make it to these steps but many (maybe even most) do:

11. WAS wants to reconcile
12A. LBS has moved on to the point that they no longer want to reconcile with the WAS. Reasons usually include "I never want to go through that again" and/ or "once I came out of the fog I realized he/she wasn't that great of a person after all."
12B. LBS decides to give recon a try
13. Recon

Of course every LBS wants to know how long it takes to get to 11. The answer is: a lot longer than most have patience for. I've seen it happen in less than a year maybe twice. I've seen more in the 1-2 year range. I've seen most in the 2+ year range. I know no one wants to hear that, but I think if you know the reality of this you'll realize just how long the road is ahead of you. If you have to run a marathon I am not doing you a service by telling you it's only a mile long, then when you get to the mile marker tell you "oops it's a little longer" and such. You need to know how long a journey it really is.

Wow. You totally nailed this timeline AS. And for the longest time I was in steps 2-4. It was after I saw the weight of the A was when my anger fueled my determination to truly work on myself. I truly feel that I am in steps 5-7. Step 8 is what I'm working towards now.

And to be honest, I am starting to get more comfortable and starting to enjoy steps 5-8. It stinks that it took me finding explicit emails to get to that step.

[Cadet]

Month 4 for me. That's still considered "nothing", even though a lot of changes have been made and sticking.

What is considered a "good" DBing time? If such a thing exists?

It's a great question because most people come here with unrealistic expectations about how long it takes to save a M. I've been around here a little bit and I've seen many sitches play out. And knocking on the door of 60, I've seen many play out IRL as well. Here is the pattern I've seen time and time again:

1. BD
2. LBS is sad and desperate and needy and doing anything to get WAS back, frantic that everything they are doing is "wrong" and desperate to know what are the "right" things to do to make things normal again
3. LBS works on themselves following a bunch of "steps" all with the thought of bringing the WAS back
4. WAS is still not interested, so LBS declares they are over WAS and moving on and will be fine with or without the WAS, while both feet are still planted firmly in 2 and 3
5. LBS realizes this really isn't going to "go back to normal" or be cured overnight
6. LBS starts rebuilding their life and REALLY letting the WAS go
7. LBS starts coming out of the fog and realizes the folly of 2-4 above
8. LBS drops the rope, embraces GAL, starts to find happiness again
9. WAS discovers that the life of freedom and fun they thought they were achieving is not there, begins working on themselves and wrestling with their internal demons
10. WAS starts to miss the LBS

I bet if I asked any of you, even the newer people, to name who here is in steps 2 and 3 and who is in 8 you'd be able to tell me with 95% accuracy for anyone except yourself. Just about all of you that have been here less than a year are in 2 and 3. Most of you are trying hard to convince yourselves you are in 6-8, but you are not even close. And let me tell you, you CANNOT make any wise decisions about ANYTHING when you are in 2-3. This is why we constantly counsel LBS's to WAIT before making any decisions regarding S or D. You are not in the right frame of mind, and worse, you DON'T KNOW you're not in the right frame of mind.

PATIENCE, PATIENCE, PATIENCE.

Now that I've said that, not all sitches make it to these steps but many (maybe even most) do:

11. WAS wants to reconcile
12A. LBS has moved on to the point that they no longer want to reconcile with the WAS. Reasons usually include "I never want to go through that again" and/ or "once I came out of the fog I realized he/she wasn't that great of a person after all."
12B. LBS decides to give recon a try
13. Recon

Of course every LBS wants to know how long it takes to get to 11. The answer is: a lot longer than most have patience for. I've seen it happen in less than a year maybe twice. I've seen more in the 1-2 year range. I've seen most in the 2+ year range. I know no one wants to hear that, but I think if you know the reality of this you'll realize just how long the road is ahead of you. If you have to run a marathon I am not doing you a service by telling you it's only a mile long, then when you get to the mile marker tell you "oops it's a little longer" and such. You need to know how long a journey it really is.

So to put it more in perspective about HOW LONG, I have been here for 10 YEARS, and WAS/MLC'er has never made any real attempt to come back.
As far as I can tell has done no work on herself and is not in any relationships.

Also I will throw in my mother who now rests in peace, she divorced my father after a 40 year marriage, he was faithful and loyal and never would have left her.
That was 27 years ago.
She also never worked on her self or made any attempt to come back.

Their are no guarantees in any of this other than you can work on yourself and pick and choose what you want your life to look like.

DB'ing is forever!!

[lost8]

All true and wow that list has sparked a lot of thoughts in many here.

Burned,

Hang in there, I think I was able to get through 2-4 after a few months because I fought to get out of my own fog. How can someone allow someone they say they love go through so much hurt? It really made me look hard at myself and realize that this is not a person that has the same values and outlook on life that I do and why would I ever want to reconcile with this person after already giving WW 18-19 years of my life.

I will admit I don't ever see myself marrying again but I have met a few ladies and just the interaction with them has given me so much hope and confidence to believe that there are good people out there. They do exist and you can't go meet them just to get you to the next step. When you are ready you will know. I actually look forward to seeing my new friends and have been encouraging my WW to continue with her independence. Funny thing is now she doesn't want to!!

[burned]

I’m glad all this came up. Im also really glad to see all this activity today. It’s nice to have “friends” around the holidays. Makes it a little less lonely.

My parents are on the same page as you. They say W just doesn’t have the same character, the same strength. What’s crazy, though, and I’m only realizing it now, is that W got into my head (I let her) and convinced me over the years that if I didn’t agree with her then I was wrong or stubborn or mean. Holier-than-thou, martyr, etc. So either we were BOTH like that, or it was only her but she managed to shift the blame to me so that she would feel less bad about herself. No idea, but the net result is that I’m having a lot of trouble getting it through my head that she is as much to blame as I am. If nothing else, getting to DB sooner would have protected me from some of the damage to my self-esteem that came from taking what she said after BD far too seriously.

And I know that’s one of the goals of GAL. For me to have experiences that teach me that maybe I’m not nearly as terrible as W made me feel I am after BD.

[lost8]

That's why GAL is so important. It will help you with your self esteem. I started just getting out of the house, that was great and kept me busy but when I started meeting new people and talking to old friends it took me back to the person I truly was and that I had gotten away from after 2 decades of marriage. I have exciting plans for the Spring and something to look forward to...all things that I would not have been doing if there was no BD,

I endured that beat down by my WW as well and it dumps you into a fog that you are all screwed up. Not true though, we all need some changes in our life, none of us are perfect. But we made this commitment with our Ws and they no longer want to honor that. I can stay mad, sad and miserable or I can move on and live a good life.

[burned]

Yup and I need to remind myself that my faults don’t justify her actions. If you don’t like how we relate, let’s talk about it, not act like everything is fine and build up resentment. If you want to leave me, leave, don’t cheat on me first, lie about it, and then act like we have a chance at fixing it. Ugh.

So the blame for that is on her. I can respect her for trying to get what she feels she needs. But I don’t respect the WAY she did it.

Another topic, Joseph9 on petri’s thread has a good way of phrasing something: “showing to her that I am not an angry jerk that is trying purposely to make her life difficult for what she did to me.” That’s what I worry my W thinks of me these days. I know it doesn’t matter and I don’t control her feelings, but, that’s maybe where the fear comes from.

[neffer]

GAL to get to PMA

[lost8]

That’s what I worry my W thinks of me these days. I know it doesn’t matter and I don’t control her feelings, but, that’s maybe where the fear comes from.[/quote]

I don't care what my wife thinks of me these days. I know that I am a good person and am still working to be better, by living a happier life, taking care of my kids so they are happy etc. Get out of her head, it is messed up and will keep you from progressing to the next step.

[lost8]

i suck at quoting btw...whats the trick?

[burned]

i suck at quoting btw...whats the trick?

Make sure to leave the part near the beginning that says quote=burned with the []

[Cadet]

i suck at quoting btw...whats the trick?

How to quote

Simplest method to quote is to use the quote button at the bottom.

Also you can highlight what you want to quote and hit the quote button.

Next method is to copy what you want to quote and use the fifth button from the right in REPLY mode,
insert text between brackets.

Last and hardest method is to type
I have left out the trailing bracket so you can see what to type.

[quote=username]How to quote[/quote

Use the PREVIEW POST button before you hit submit so you can see what your post will look like.



http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553129#Post2553129

[SteveLW]

i suck at quoting btw...whats the trick?

How to quote

Simplest method to quote is to use the quote button at the bottom.

Also you can highlight what you want to quote and hit the quote button.

Next method is to copy what you want to quote and use the fifth button from the right in REPLY mode,
insert text between brackets.

Last and hardest method is to type
I have left out the trailing bracket so you can see what to type.

How to quote[/quote

Use the PREVIEW POST button before you hit submit so you can see what your post will look like.



http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553129#Post2553129

Good stuff. My secret is to copy and paste the brackets and =lost8. Using the markup with brackets to open and close quotations. I think this is the way most of us do it when we quote a post in order to respond line by line.

[burned]

Hi Steve!

I am smiling because of the silly irony in the fact that your quote of Cadet’s quote of lost8’s quote...got messed up. Bummer! :P

[lost8]

I've been here long enough you'd think I'd figured it out already.

[SteveLW]

Hi Steve!

I am smiling because of the silly irony in the fact that your quote of Cadet’s quote of lost8’s quote...got messed up. Bummer! :P

LOL, I saw that. I think cadet's quote had some brackets in it or something. Too funny!

[Cadet]

Hi Steve!

I am smiling because of the silly irony in the fact that your quote of Cadet’s quote of lost8’s quote...got messed up. Bummer! :P

LOL, I saw that. I think cadet's quote had some brackets in it or something. Too funny!

Nope yours was missing one ending [/quote - I fixed it above

[SteveLW]

Hi Steve!

I am smiling because of the silly irony in the fact that your quote of Cadet’s quote of lost8’s quote...got messed up. Bummer! :P

LOL, I saw that. I think cadet's quote had some brackets in it or something. Too funny!

Nope yours was missing one ending [/quote - I fixed it above

Why thank you kind sir! Not sure how that happened. DOH

[burned]

W texts, just now, "I hope you have a nice thanksgiving." WTF? What does it mean? Nothing of course. How do I respond without falling into the WW trap and backsliding?

I certainly won't say "You too, and send my best wishes to your family." That's SO last year.

[Phoenix9]

W texts, just now, "I hope you have a nice thanksgiving." WTF? What does it mean? Nothing of course. How do I respond without falling into the WW trap and backsliding?

I certainly won't say "You too, and send my best wishes to your family." That's SO last year.

Did she ask you a question? No? Then you don't need to answer.

That's my mindset.

[burned]

Did she ask you a question? No? Then you don't need to answer.

That's my mindset.

Yeah, but...but...but my NGS! Be nice to her so that she doesn't think you're a prick who ghosted her on our first major holiday without each other!

Shut up, NGS. Go away. Howsabout this: last Thanksgiving we were together, and she was ALREADY porking OM and hiding it from me. So...she did that, in real life. Why do I care if she has a nice Thanksgiving?

Is it within the confines of DB to respond, "Go pork yourself?"

[burned]

Moving right along to the next thread...