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Coda

Posted By: ballast

Coda - 11/14/18 10:51 AM

Link to my old thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2810939&page=11

Coda seems appropriate as I believe within the span of this thread divorce between my W and I seems likely. My sig lays out my specifics. My sitch is pretty meh, W left early this year and has basically ghosted me since. I would have liked the opportunity to have had a chance to save my MR and give you all a much better "she said, so I did/said experience", but nope just didn't happen in my case. Even without that there's a ton of knowledge from many vets tucked away within my threads that many will find useful. It sounds um anti-climatic? ya know the whole boy DID NOT get the girl deal, but I at least I established the foundation to save myself within these words. There's a sermon online where the preacher talks about "you can make it on broken pieces", that's me these days. Kind of always amazing to create a new thread, wondering how "you" are still here, a degree of rejection in the reality of still being on your journey, BUT ironically optimism in what more you can/will learn with it's creation...off we go...

-B
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 11/14/18 01:51 PM

Your jouney is yours B. But you are not alone.

(((B)))
Posted By: Davide

Re: Coda - 11/14/18 03:15 PM

Keep focusing on that optimism and the vastness of the possibilities in front of you Ballast!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 11:35 AM

just a quick update...saw W again at handoff of D yesterday...same ol, same ol...no talk, no eye contact and gone in a flash. at first i thought it was anger/resentment, but now coming around to the more shame/guilt idea. i have no idea what she's done exactly, but gut has always told me she's done something. believe she had an OM in some fashion while we were married and then did the BD/separation to get free to pursue it and claim "oh we were separated" when i met him. very important for her to "keep up appearances" lest she appear to be a bad person. anyway my time with D was wonderful as always. the most amazing part of my life these days is how quickly my D is growing up and how fast she is learning. let my W do her thing, my relationship with D...now that's the good stuff right there!

also my spidey sense has me feeling like W is stalling on the D process. she has been h8ll bent on it from the beginning, but it just seems like it's slowed. i know the process is annoying to her and not going as she expected. also i told her emotionless i'm trying to get us done asap as per her request. could be many other things going on of course, i don't know, don't care, but gut feel is that the "PUSH" is not as pushy. lol.

had another good meetup with IC. she continues to be fascinated by W. we've been working on "my picker", investigating why/how i choose who i do as far as ladies to date. i think we both believe i go in with rose colored glasses that are too thick, although with my W we agree there is no way i could have foreseen initially where my W is now. i question my IC alot, by that i mean i still have a very hard time believing my W needs help to address some of her issues, also i question my IC about "hey are you just telling me what I want to hear and taking my side"...she emphatically states that she is not just telling me what i want to hear. bottom line it's helpful speaking with her even though she gives me ZERO hope that W will ever be mentally able to do the work necessary to R or even regret or show remorse for what's happened. perhaps due to time/my own realizations, I'm at peace with that. as i've said before i'd be in WAY more uncharted territory if W ever did come back around. the more i've read/reflected the less i believe piecing/R with W would be possible. that truly seems more difficult than my present status. i just don't think that if there was OM we could get back. i don't think W could do it and as i've said before if i'm not last in her heart and given what i've experienced, painful, but best to move on. i'm happy to be free of my feelings for her presently, if she came back i'd have to confront them...jury is still out i know if i had to.

won't see D until after the holiday this week, that's why when we're together i load up on memories/good times to see me through. head down GAL'ing, at the gym and lots of good time with family/friends upcoming.

it may be hard for myself and many of us to feel thankful given our sitches this week. i pray we all even through the adversities we presently find ourselves in can yet with God's grace recognize the many blessings we each still have. Through our recognition of those blessings may we find continued strength to see us through our difficult times.

-B
Posted By: LoneWlf

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 12:02 PM

You nailed it B!! Count your blessings and focus on what is GOOD!! Leave all the negative behind!! My prayers are with you !
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 01:44 PM

And what do you need to leave something behind? Move forward! You are doing better B. Keep the pace. I know it´s hard. But you are saving yourself. Be there for D3 and move forward.

Stay strong B!
Posted By: Davide

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 03:01 PM

Quote
it may be hard for myself and many of us to feel thankful given our sitches this week. i pray we all even through the adversities we presently find ourselves in can yet with God's grace recognize the many blessings we each still have. Through our recognition of those blessings may we find continued strength to see us through our difficult times.


THIS!

I am decidedly not religious, but you are spot on about finding those things in our lives to grateful for, and finding the continued strength to keep up the struggle.

I, for one, am unbelievably grateful for the support and love in this community of anonymous "strangers."
Posted By: Accuray

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
also my spidey sense has me feeling like W is stalling on the D process. she has been h8ll bent on it from the beginning, but it just seems like it's slowed. i know the process is annoying to her and not going as she expected. also i told her emotionless i'm trying to get us done asap as per her request. could be many other things going on of course, i don't know, don't care, but gut feel is that the "PUSH" is not as pushy. lol.


Going through a D process is a lot of administrative hell and obviously there are negative feelings associated with it. As you get into the thick of it, its normal to lose momentum, particularly if W is gaining the majority of whatever benefits she was seeking already. i.e. once the process is complete, how is her life better? If its not, there's really no motivation to push.

For instance, when my sister got divorced, her exH refused to move out of the marital home until the D was complete, and she really wanted him out. That gave her a lot of motivation to move things along and her exH leveraged that urgency to gain concessions.

Originally Posted by ballast
had another good meetup with IC. she continues to be fascinated by W. we've been working on "my picker", investigating why/how i choose who i do as far as ladies to date.


Working on your picker is the best thing I've read all month
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 06:14 PM

Quote
also my spidey sense has me feeling like W is stalling on the D process. she has been h8ll bent on it from the beginning, but it just seems like it's slowed. i know the process is annoying to her and not going as she expected. also i told her emotionless i'm trying to get us done asap as per her request. could be many other things going on of course, i don't know, don't care, but gut feel is that the "PUSH" is not as pushy. lol.


The PUSH is usually them wanting you to do all the work. This is why as anti-DBers we always advocate letting them do all of the work. It is there idea. They want it. Let them do it

Sorry if I repeat myself to you, I've told this to many people, my W was gungho on getting a job, getting an apartment and getting a D. She'd found an online D site that guaranteed a quick, and easy D. When she mentioned it I said, "yeah, I don't think that is going to work with a kid involved." And that started to break her fantasy D bubble.

I was still snooping back then and saw she researched "Ding (in our state) with kids". 16 step process! Drawn out over a year and a half (and that is IF things when smoothly).

I then contacted a lawyer. I let her know that. Further bubble breaking.

All WWs fantasize about a quick and easy D. Mine was even willing to give up full custody of our D, not want any money and give me the house to get it! When I told her no, we were going to share custody, I'd pay support, she'd get half of everything, and that we were going to sell the house and split those proceeds, that further broke her bubble. And it made her feel guilty. (I remember the house discussion vividly! I told he we were going to sell it and split the equity. She said "no, I don't want you to sell. I want D to have the stability of her home." (She had these plans of family dinners together in the house, and keeping a key to help with things.) I looked her dead in the eye and said "I have to sell it to move on. This is OUR home and it would be a constant reminder. It wouldn't be fair for you to go off and start this new life but for me not to be able to do the same."

More than likely her PUSH has slowed because she realizes that it isn't going to be short, or easy. Reality always takes a bite out of a WW's plans.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 09:45 PM

Acc...I would say that W's realization that while in her life with other people she may get her way, in a court of law regarding a D she won't get all of what she thinks. the picker conversation...I'm still way WAYWARD in my reluctance to talk about it. for a big part of me it's like breaking down my last high school football game 30 years later. yeah I know I need to improve, make better decisions but I d**n sure don't feel like I'll be "playing" again.

another girl friend at work today told me she wants to set me up...after enduring the emotional abuse I feel I'm working my way through, I just thankfully and most respectfully don't want to try again. lies, deceit, selfishness...pure EVIL. for sure I'll endure and get through this, but the conflict I have in me over ever trying again is much greater than whatever happens with me and W. my D was crying when I left her yesterday. I can mind movie all day about W doing anything she could think of with any man or woman and not trigger...but the tears in my D's eyes as I have to leave her

Steve, no apologies. The more you tell it, the more chance newer folks who come here will see it in their time of need.

Originally Posted by Steve85
When I told her no, we were going to share custody, I'd pay support, she'd get half of everything, and that we were going to sell the house and split those proceeds, that further broke her bubble. And it made her feel guilty. (I remember the house discussion vividly! I told he we were going to sell it and split the equity. She said "no, I don't want you to sell. I want D to have the stability of her home." I looked her dead in the eye and said "I have to sell it to move on. This is OUR home and it would be a constant reminder. It wouldn't be fair for you to go off and start this new life but for me not to be able to do the same."


Outwardly at least I don't think W cares, but I feel I will be deciding the same as you for the exact same reason. After "going in reverse" for several months then finally being able hit the brakes and shift my life back into forward gears I really want to keep picking up speed and this needs to be a part of it.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/19/18 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
I'm still way WAYWARD in my reluctance to talk about it. for a big part of me it's like breaking down my last high school football game 30 years later. yeah I know I need to improve, make better decisions but I d**n sure don't feel like I'll be "playing" again.


Originally Posted by ballast
I just thankfully and most respectfully don't want to try again.


Originally Posted by ballast
but the conflict I have in me over ever trying again is much greater than whatever happens with me and W


sorry folks I'm actually checking and cancelling out my own foolishness. I'll be d88mned if I'm gonna let W's crazy A88 stop me from one day having a true loving relationship like I've been praying to God about all these years. just maybe through the pain and heartbreak of all this, he's preparing me for the one I've been meant to be with all along...gotta keep "shake it off", learn and get myself back in the game one of these days. apologies for talking to myself, but I couldn't let my dumb a88 comments from myself to myself stand.

feel MUCH better now.

-B
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/20/18 10:48 PM

I lost her...Red Breast 12yo....make me cry...
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/21/18 09:43 AM

holidays are going to be tough no matter what. simply put I miss her, my D and OUR whole family.

I'll get through it ok, but there will be a TON of self reflecting...and hopefully a lot of food!

praying for all of you...

-B
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Coda - 11/21/18 02:15 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
holidays are going to be tough no matter what. simply put I miss her, my D and OUR whole family.

I'll get through it ok, but there will be a TON of self reflecting...and hopefully a lot of food!

praying for all of you...

-B


Those first holidays after BD are horrible! Hang in there B, you'll just persevere at first, but then you'll learn to start enjoying life again. Be patient with yourself!
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 11/21/18 02:58 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
holidays are going to be tough no matter what. simply put I miss her, my D and OUR whole family.

I'll get through it ok, but there will be a TON of self reflecting...and hopefully a lot of food!

praying for all of you...

-B


B I can relate. BD for me was 12/23 last year. The holidays sucked. I could barely eat. Everyone noticed. I said I didn't feel well (which was 100% true). My mom has a sixth sense about these things. During our get-together she went into the kitchen of my niece's house where my W was sitting....and hugged her. Out of the blue and said "I love you!" My W mentioned it later as being weird. Then when we opened a restaurant gift card from my parents (as did my other siblings) my mom said "And that is for a date night! Not for the entire family but must for the couples to go out on a date." She knew something wasn't right with us.

The other get togethers were the same but without the mom's 6th sense. So much good food and I could barely eat any of it. I plan to make up for that this year.

Hang in there B, it will get better one way or another.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 11:14 AM

well...thanksgiving was...surreal best i know how to say it. a whole bunch of "this is not right, i should be with my family (W+D)" but nope and it was complete radio silence which didn't surprise me either. closing in on almost 9 months apart, ironically the time seems to have passed MUCH faster than i ever expected to have done so. it is hard at times to even recall...many things. w leaving, w being with me, our regular day to day. can't even say how i even feel about those things, be it fondly or sad or what. does truly feel like my life was shot out of a cannon...and likely i'm still flying through the air lol.

first part of the long weekend was rough. rightly or wrongly through what i know of my sitch, my gut feeling GUESS is that W has had an affair of some kind/duration. i spent a good bit of time reading up on the why's of affairs and learned a great deal. the need for validation of looks, feeling alone, being resentful, lots of sex, etc many reasons that i could see in my W. and then, more importantly i could see how what i did not provide could have brought about those feelings in my w. not getting away from the tv, basically just not giving to her the level of attention she may have needed. i know to separate the issues of the marriage from W having an affair IF she did, but i did and can see how the discontent from the MR could enable W to have an OM. one thing that struck me as well is that in one research article I read it said basically that the one who is unfaithful many times is the one who gave the least in the relationship. to be fair to myself, W did not invest much time in giving me what i needed in the MR either...and yet i never once considered going outside of it. i was told "unhappy", but never told specifics so i don't feel too hard on myself when she couldn't/wouldn't be adult enough to tell me HOW/WHY she wasn't happy. there was/is so much potential i see in our MR especially with the time and growth and learning that i've developed in the time apart that it's a terrible pity for her to just through it away like a piece of trash....but i can't control that AND even if i feel like i've become a better man, more relationship aware guy, in no way does that mean she has esp if she's wayward. just s88ks.

from all i read over the course of the weekend, there's no hope for her and i. funny thing is even 9 months on from BD while life on the whole is ok, inside of me i am STILL standing for my MR. i mean procedurally i'll have to sign some papers, sell the house and find a new place to live, but life as i'll know it then is basically as i know it now...and that's fine actually. not how i wanted it but fine. and yet, I STILL love her. the more I've read of R, the more H**L I think it would be. if she had OM, for two folks to R it sounds like a never ending H**L. the more i read of what it takes, the more i admire the people who can go through it. i just don't think i'm strong enough to endure it were it ever to come up and I don't think W would ever be able to do all that is necessary on her end. so there it is, even if she came back, if there was OM i don't think we'd survive. that said then the ONLY option is D, doing away with her and moving on. the more i can invalidate R as acceptable, the more i can accept D as what other option is there? it becomes a non-emotional decision as it's the only answer left/available.

bought some stuff for D for Christmas and i'm sure i'll get more gifts as the time goes by. a VERY wonderful way to "GAL" :-) thing is though, where i am now i'd just as soon forget Christmas. was tough coming back and seeing neighbor houses all aglow with lights and love for their families living inside, while mine is all blown to H**L. anyway i don't get this. i guess the reality is i never will. somebody i think LH was saying how it seems like every woman in their 40's is unhappy. lol yeah that. IC will continue to have a fight on her hands with me. between the failure rate of marriages, my 2 D's and all that i read from other's sitches, i can see me staying alone for a long time and given what i know, i'm more accepting of that with each passing day.

i want to say to some folks especially harvey, twofeet, hurt you all are in my prayers. you boys are going through H**L and i feel terribly sorry for the cruelty you are each enduring. i haven't had a chance in H**L with my sitch either, but at least i've had more peace/time. praying for you guys. i also want to thank and say prayers for so many wonderful folks on here who have lifted me up and everyone else with their comments/thoughts and prayers. it's a wonderful thing to read when one of us is down, not too long after someone else comes along and picks them up especially in some of the appalling sitches some of us are dealing with.

-b
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 01:34 PM

Stay strong B. Hope is a die hard b!tch. Be proud to have it, it honours your M. Just get expectations out, for your own sake. Moving forward man, better times coming. Enjoy D when spending time with her, be there at the real time.

Keep DBing

Hugs man!

(((B)))
Posted By: LH19

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 02:09 PM

B,

Just clarify so as not to offend anyone, I said all the married women that I know in their 40s are unhappy. I also read an article that said women in their 40s are the most unhappiest people on the planet.

I am really surprised that after all this time and with mutual friends that you have not been able to confirm an A.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 02:32 PM

neffer, i'm strong for me and my D, but me and hope...lol like i say i've just read so much about how terribly hard R is post-A. and if i'm being honest and w has had one, i couldn't stay with her. simple and as soul crushing as that. D is the formal end, but if she left at BD because of any kind of A then we(I) was done as soon as it started. there MUST be better times ahead for sure.

lh, apologies if i misquoted/misunderstood you. i don't believe its only women in their 40's really. i guess from being on here, it seems like the entire world of men/women are unhappy. :-)

so there are no mutual friends and she has family all around her. W has but one friend who is not close. and for me as i've said, i have not one single time even been interested to try and find out. if there is/was an A/OM then as i say i'm done/finished at that point anyway and she left so what difference does it make. best not to beat myself up over something i couldn't control anyway and i D**M sure know i'm a good man that didn't deserve the betrayal.

i think W's plan is just keeping it very hidden until D for appearances. i think she had one, probably for much longer than i would ever imagine, she BD/separated from me when the "other nest" was strong in her opinion, scapegoats me to be the bad guy/justify to her family/hope they buy it, goes away to conduct the PA, will keep it out of sight until she can D me ASAP and THEN..."family here's OM, we met after B and I separated, I'm a good person, didn't cheat" it would be terribly difficult for W if she thinks her family thinks she cheated. for me if she did, she freed/lost me from her the second it started. i hope it was worth it for her IF it happened.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 02:46 PM

There´s not need of those dark thoughts B, right? Actually you know nothing about W whereabouts or did I lose some part of the sitch?
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 02:56 PM

Yep, you are right neffer, no need of them, i don't even see them as dark really...

i know where she is living, beyond that i factually know nothing else. just my gut feelings of what transpired to get me here.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 03:24 PM

Well tell your mind to choose some healthier thoughts...it´s about you now man, take care of yourself. You control what you control.

Keep moving forward B
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 04:45 PM

neffer my mind goes through this process to try and answer why. AS has spoken with me about it in the past as both his ex and mine basically went ghost without a word to us on what happened. if i get the why and it's EA/PA/OM then that is the end for me. if i reach "the end" then all hope leaves, if all hope leaves, then i am free as she was a bad person.

once i knew my 1st W was that way at BD, i never shed a tear, dropped her completely and no one knock on my self esteem. betrayal in a marriage, vows to lies, no quarter of forgiveness can i give to that. if i establish that with my W now, too late i've already shed a ton of tears, BUT i will drop her and hope completely. there will be no light for her in the storm. and i will HATE myself for that, but will have no choice.

i'm a Christian...i am to forgive those who "trespass against us" and yet for the person i vowed to love the most, i can't. that dichotomy...it rages in me and pulls me apart. many times i feel this whole ordeal is actually more about me and God and my W is just the pawn piece he uses to challenge me. he is forging/testing me somehow i don't understand and yes, perhaps i'm fighting him. i read where this whole thing tests us emotionally, physically and spiritually...for sure that is true.

hope that makes some sense and doesn't make me sound as pathetic as i feel in describing it.

-B
Posted By: Accuray

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 04:59 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
rightly or wrongly through what i know of my sitch, my gut feeling GUESS is that W has had an affair of some kind/duration. i spent a good bit of time reading up on the why's of affairs and learned a great deal. the need for validation of looks, feeling alone, being resentful, lots of sex, etc many reasons that i could see in my W. and then, more importantly i could see how what i did not provide could have brought about those feelings in my w. not getting away from the tv, basically just not giving to her the level of attention she may have needed. i know to separate the issues of the marriage from W having an affair IF she did, but i did and can see how the discontent from the MR could enable W to have an OM.


Ballast, you're telling yourself stories, then getting spun up about the stories you're telling yourself.

You don't know if W had an affair.

To spend so much mental energy playing the "let's assume that W *did* have an affair, and then explain why she chose to do that, and compare it to my reasons for why I didn't do that" game has no value other than torturing yourself with useless speculation.

There are facts, and then there are the stories we tell ourselves, which are not facts.

The fact is that your W decided she wanted out of the relationship, and another fact is that since doing so, she has not been communicative.

The "why" behind her actions is likely forever out of reach. Even if she eventually tries to explain to you why she did what she did, it probably won't be accurate because it will be clouded by how she later comes to look at her past, which is often inaccurate, its a narrative that fits prior behaviors, but isn't the real explanation for them.

I would submit that this ---^ is the real problem that you're having. You can't explain W's "big why" and because you can't, you feel terrified that you won't be able to prevent it from happening again, or predict if it might.

Coming to terms with this -- the fact that you can't predict, anticipate, or control what other people decide and that the rug can get yanked at any time is a major thing to comes to terms with. It's a stressful process of acceptance. Once you get there, you realize that all you can do is control your own behavior and live with integrity. If you do that, you'll come to a "if someone wrongs me it is their loss" philosophy which will give you great comfort.

Regarding your hypothesized affair, the counterargument to that would be that someone with generalized anxiety disorder lives in constant fear of what could go wrong. Their anxiety leads them to be distrustful of others and standoffish. Someone who is suffering in that way would be unlikely to want to add the additional stress of deception and ultimate risk of being found out and humiliated. If anything, your wife's exit from the relationship may have been an attempt to have "less to worry about" which would be a rejection of relationships in general in order to ease her anxiety disorder.

I'm not saying that's what happened, and maybe she *did* have an affair, I'm only suggesting that her behavior can as easily be explained by a "no affair theory" as it can be by and "affair theory" so its not really worth your time to play out and dissect either one.

Acc
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by ballast


i'm a Christian...i am to forgive those who "trespass against us" and yet for the person i vowed to love the most, i can't. that dichotomy...it rages in me and pulls me apart. many times i feel this whole ordeal is actually more about me and God and my W is just the pawn piece he uses to challenge me. he is forging/testing me somehow i don't understand and yes, perhaps i'm fighting him. i read where this whole thing tests us emotionally, physically and spiritually...for sure that is true.


-B


I'd like to challenge this a bit. And say that God doesn't test us. But he allows us to be tested. But NEVER above that we are able. I can back all of that up with scripture if you'd like, but it is all in there. The story of Job paints a picture of this where Satan did the testing, but God put parameters on how far Satan could go. You aren't fighting him. You are fighting yourself! Job could have cursed God and died. In fact, we all can take that route. But it isn't God we are fighting, but ourselves. And our patience. And our longsuffering. And our ability to trust Him. And the depths of our faith.

B, you are going to be okay....NO MATTER WHAT. You have to put your faith and trust in that. It may not feel that way now, but at some point you will look back and realize this.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 05:24 PM

ACC you are right of course on everything...just pointless speculative crazy on my part. my mind looking for a way out of pain, nothing more, nothing less. i'm tired man and i loved her so much, but all i can do is take care of me and keep going forward i know that. god help me someday that this make sense. long way to go for me i know. i just want free of her.

thank you my friend...

-B
Posted By: Accuray

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 06:01 PM

My pleasure -- I heard a radio show talking about families coping with incurable, terminal diseases. In those situations, a member of the family is going to die, and there's nothing that can be done to change that outcome.

In those scenarios, its very common for people in the family to become experts in the disease -- to understand all the possible treatment paths, all the risks, all the prior outcomes, all the holistic treatment methods, etc. In effect they get a PhD in the disease.

Why do they do this when the outcome is inevitable?

Because humans have a terrible time with feeling a lack of control. An attempt to "become an expert" is an attempt to gain control over something that is uncontrollable.

That explains why LBS seek to do so much relationship reading, study affairs, read about mental illness, infidelity, etc. Its a desperate bid for control in an environment where control is not available to us.

Acc
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 06:37 PM

Originally Posted by Accuray
My pleasure -- I heard a radio show talking about families coping with incurable, terminal diseases. In those situations, a member of the family is going to die, and there's nothing that can be done to change that outcome.

In those scenarios, its very common for people in the family to become experts in the disease -- to understand all the possible treatment paths, all the risks, all the prior outcomes, all the holistic treatment methods, etc. In effect they get a PhD in the disease.

Why do they do this when the outcome is inevitable?

Because humans have a terrible time with feeling a lack of control. An attempt to "become an expert" is an attempt to gain control over something that is uncontrollable.

That explains why LBS seek to do so much relationship reading, study affairs, read about mental illness, infidelity, etc. Its a desperate bid for control in an environment where control is not available to us.

Acc


So true. In fact, I came to this board looking for information on how anti-depressants can cause people to become wayward. I thought if I could get her off the meds I could fix the sitch. CONTROL
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 07:56 PM

Great stuff from Acc as always!

Originally Posted by ballast
AS has spoken with me about it in the past as both his ex and mine basically went ghost without a word to us on what happened.


And 6-1/2 years later I still know no more than I did the day after BD. The difference is I no longer feel the need to know.

Quote
if i get the why and it's EA/PA/OM then that is the end for me. if i reach "the end" then all hope leaves, if all hope leaves, then i am free as she was a bad person.


But is it really so cut and dried? You won't think that you played some part in it? I mean you did, women don't leave perfect marriages with fantastic husbands. Most of the time when they leave, it's their "last resort". They do it out of desperation. Something is terribly wrong and they want out so bad that they're willing to give up everything- to sacrifice their home, their family and their future to try and grasp something better. When I read Sandi's posts about what she went through as a WAS, sure she was wayward and selfish but at the same time she was in a terrible place and was scared and desperate. Reading what she went through really tugs at your heart strings and helps put things in perspective as to what our own wives must have been going through (or are going through). If an A is a deal-killer for you then so be it. But 6-1/2 years post-BD I still don't know if my ex had an A or not, so you may never know either.

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i'm a Christian...i am to forgive those who "trespass against us" and yet for the person i vowed to love the most, i can't.


Forgiveness isn't for her, it's for YOU. You'll never drop the rope if you never forgive. My brother has never forgiven his ex and 8+ years post-D he's still bitter, angry and blames her for every bad thing in his life. You can make that choice too, but it's no way to live!

Quote
many times i feel this whole ordeal is actually more about me and God and my W is just the pawn piece he uses to challenge me. he is forging/testing me somehow i don't understand and yes, perhaps i'm fighting him. i read where this whole thing tests us emotionally, physically and spiritually...for sure that is true.


Yeah I hear you, I went on that journey too. See where it takes you. Be open-minded. Is he really testing us? Or do these things just happen not because there's a God or devil pulling the strings, but just because that is the random draw of life? I'm not saying there is no God, but personally I believe he is utterly beyond our understanding, and all of our talk of him testing us and such and deciding whether we go to heaven or hell or whatever is just our meager attempt to understand and define something that cannot be understood. We're trying to take some incredible power and humanize it. But regardless of where that journey takes you, you've got to come to peace with it all and move forward with acceptance in your heart.
Posted By: Twofeet

Re: Coda - 11/26/18 09:12 PM

B,

Thanks for keeping me in your prayers, I really do appreciate that.

Kind of in the line of thinking about what the other people are saying. Don't put any mental effort into when or if your W has an EA/PA with OM. Its just a mental mind trap you will get into, and you will be just thinking in circles. An "alpha" or "man's man" or AMOAFWL isn't going to get into that type of circular thinking. Be that man.

If W comes back to you down the road and is fully repentant for her actions and wants to recon with you (whether there is an A or not) then cross that bridge when you get there.

BTW I read all your posts and while we have different sitch I do find myself in a similar mindset that you have wrt to modern women and modern relationships. My world and some of my core has been rocked. I am at the point now that once D is official and if down the road W wanted to remarry me I would consider it only with her. Otherwise, I just can't see myself getting M again. LTR yes, but M no. Maybe that will change, but for now I don't see it that way.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/27/18 12:36 PM

Acc...just some followup, you are right. I'm mid-30's, twice D'd and no idea what happened. So you tell me how i'm not to be terrified of it happening again? i (hopefully) have another 35 years on this earth, i don't want to go through the rest of it alone, but then again i surely don't want to go through this yet a 3rd time. And is it me? 1st W went PA/BD, D'd me, married OM and D'd him in less than 3 years. so was I the one with issues/the bad husband? i do agree that anxiety played a part in this. i have a phD IC telling me "this is on her, yes you could have done this/that, but she chose to let you go and not try to do anything". IC says "she has likely multiple issues" and i nod acceptingly because she's the expert, but do I really believe her or maybe was it just me. thankfully today i can write this and say i'm not spinning like yesterday. i'm too tired of thinking about it to go down that path again today.

Steve...yes you are right i am fighting against/for myself. my ability to withstand emotional pain, be patient, have faith all are being greatly tested. i will BE...OK? the jury will be a long time out on that one. i've had enough and i say that as matter of factly and without malice/bitterness towards W as i can.

AS...yes i understand. even though W gave me a shotgun blast to the heart and walked away, with time while the wound won't heal, it will scab over and leave my thoughts. to be ABSOLUTELY clear, I completely accept and know that I could have/should have done more in our MR. I HATE myself for not giving 100% to it like I know I could have, BUT who among us will EVER give 100% all the time? where it is cut and dried for me is, if there was a PA/OM, i'm done. as has been said here many times for sure i had a part to play in the demise of the MR, but i did not go outside of it and desecrate it. and again I HATE myself for being unable to provide to my W whatever it was that she needed to make her value the MR. but how much can I sympathize if they go wayward/selfish and just destroy everything? should Hurt have to go through the emotional abuse of his W showing him the clothes he's going to take to see OM and flat out know that is where she is off to, simply because he was a good guy, he wasn't 100% what she needed at all times? God knows this is terrible for everyone and in NO WAY am i not responsible. read some of the infidelity sites, those LBS AND WWs who try to R go through total H**L and not just for a year or so, but for the rest of their lives. and no, i have no clue on my sitch, absent knowledge I think the problem was all me. if i hadn't let her lose respect for me, done more of this or that, etc and thing is as Acc just highlights even if i did all this work and try to cover all my bases, she may still have left. i know we focus on the LBS and what we can control, because heck that's all we can control, but i worry sometimes that the balance in who needs to do the work between the LBS and WW is skewed more to what the LBS did wrong than what the WW did wrong. but don't worry or think me unaccepting of my responsibility Stander, for the rest of my life i'll think about what i did so wrong that cost me the love of my W. and i guess i should have explained, i can forgive her for being done with me, but i can't forgive her for the PA/OM IF there was one.

twofeet...you're welcome, you have a very tough sitch and with three small children, it pains me to read of families being torn apart. when i feel like need God's strength and then i read your sitch, i ask him to give what i asked for to you...you have it much tougher than i. i think being "alpha" when dating is one thing, like let them go, more fish in the sea. a bit different i believe when you are in a committed MR and the search is over so to speak. i agree i need to steer clear of the circular thinking as it's a no win.

i do hear you on crossing the bridge if/when i get there, but she ain't coming back particularly because no way she'll be able to be fully repentant and if there was a PA/OM, she lost me right there anyway. just have to keep on moving forward with the pieces i have left.

i have seen guy friends completely blow up wonderful marriages chasing stupid s**t, my heart pains for their wives. both genders in modern relationships are equally screwed up. thankfully for guys like us we landed here and can learn ways to make ourselves better men/spouses, but sadly i do wonder if that will make any difference when women seem to feel so entitled that they should always be happy, no struggles and if there are, well drop the guy and go find another. my IC told me "i don't think the 30 year marriage will continue", i'm sorry then as at my age, I can't emotionally nor financially accept having 6-7 5 year marriages when the happiness meter for modern ladies goes less than 100%. i wish you the absolute best in your sitch. i may be entirely screwed up in mine, so i take hope in the chances for others. it will be a long time before i have to worry about another relationship again.

-B
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 11/27/18 12:59 PM

We live, we learn B. Keep moving into B 2.0, 3.0,..., n.0. What matters is to keep moving.
Posted By: Accuray

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
I'm mid-30's, twice D'd and no idea what happened. So you tell me how i'm not to be terrified of it happening again?


There's a simple answer to that -- you get good with you.

Depending how you're raised, what your background is, etc you inform your self-esteem by measuring your life. You have certain assumptions you may not even be aware of about what it means to be valuable. You might assume that if you don't own your own house you're somehow failing in life. You might assume that if you get to age 40 and haven't hit some level of seniority in your career you're somehow failing in life. You might assume that if you don't have a fancy car at some point you're somehow coming up short.

You also might assume that if you don't have a traditional nuclear family by a certain age you're failing, or if you have been divorced you're somehow less valuable, etc.

If you don't feel worthy, you're not going to be attractive, and your relationship isn't going to be healthy, because your insecurities are going to have an ongoing negative impact on it.

I'm not suggesting that it's possible to wake up one day as a "confidence monster" -- its not. What I'm saying has more to do with accepting who you are, strengths and weaknesses, and accepting it. If there are things about you that you cannot accept as "good enough", ask yourself why -- are you making irrational assumptions about where the line should be drawn, or in fact do you have an issue you need to address?

If its the latter, address it, and then get good with who you are. It's the whole notion of self-actualization. If you can achieve acceptance of who you are, and know that you are valid and worthy, then a partner's reaction to you just really isn't that critical, because you know you're living with integrity. Its a "their loss" mindset if things do fall apart.

If you have that mindset, that you're good with you, that you'll be fine no matter what happens, alone or together, then there is absolutely nothing to be terrified about.

Originally Posted by ballast
i (hopefully) have another 35 years on this earth, i don't want to go through the rest of it alone, but then again i surely don't want to go through this yet a 3rd time. And is it me? 1st W went PA/BD, D'd me, married OM and D'd him in less than 3 years. so was I the one with issues/the bad husband?


Reading between the lines in your sitch, I think you have to work on your picker, as your IC has pointed out. A great book to read for you would be "Getting the Love You Want". The thesis there is that all of us have certain childhood hurts. We adapt to these hurts, and learn how to cope with them. Coping with these things feels comfortable to us.

We therefore are attracted to people who "mistreat us" in the same way our parents did. If your parents made you feel not good enough, you'll seek a partner who makes you work hard for their approval. Working hard for approval is your comfort zone. Unfortunately, this exacerbates our worst issues and keeps us stuck in the same dynamic that we struggle with.

By reading the book, you can see why you pick the people you pick, what's driving it, and deal with that. In the example above, you may not value a partner that didn't make you work hard for their approval, but it may be that it would be the best partner for you! Lots of work to do there ballast.

Acc
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 04:01 PM

Quote
Steve...yes you are right i am fighting against/for myself. my ability to withstand emotional pain, be patient, have faith all are being greatly tested. i will BE...OK? the jury will be a long time out on that one. i've had enough and i say that as matter of factly and without malice/bitterness towards W as i can.


B I hear you. If my MR had gone to D I would have had trouble moving forward healthily myself, let alone twice. I completely understand how you would feel the way you do. Lots of prayers for you my friend. We are here for you.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 04:36 PM

Acc...i know i have high self esteem and for sure divorced twice is strongly against my measure of life success. that for sure i associate with failure and personal failure at that. I WAS NOT A GOOD, rather than WE both had our issues. and yes D having a non-traditional nuclear family, FAILURE. i have HUGE difficulty accepting that as ok. so i feel worthy, but in my scorecard of life i'm an utter failure. every and any vision i had for myself having lived a life of purpose and quality is scorched right now. so for sure i am good with me the person, but terrible with the story of my life. with time, IC and some acceptance hopefully i can free myself from that.

thing is, in no way did my parents mistreat me. i only have complete and totally positive memories of childhood. BUT in both of my MRs, my W's did not have great relationships with their parents. i never had to work hard for approval from my folks. they were always supportive and loving of me and not once throughout my childhood did i ever feel mistreated. and at least for my current wife i "thought" i chose well. i'm continuing to talk about my "picker" with my IC. i don't know that the scenario you suggest is correct to mine, BUT there is likely another scenario that does.

-b
Posted By: Davide

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 05:01 PM

Quote
in my scorecard of life i'm an utter failure. every and any vision i had for myself having lived a life of purpose and quality is scorched right now. so for sure i am good with me the person, but terrible with the story of my life. with time, IC and some acceptance hopefully i can free myself from that.


Please work on this with your IC. This is not a healthy perspective. The failure of marriages should not mean that your life is a failure. Marriage is a two-way street and you cannot control the outcome, you can only live by your values be content in knowing that you did your best. Of course you, and nearly all of us here, could have been better husbands or wives, but it is the WAS who left and broke the commitment, not you.

Hang in there.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
I HATE myself for not giving 100% to it like I know I could have, BUT who among us will EVER give 100% all the time?


Oh for sure, I totally agree. And I wasn't suggesting this is ALL your fault, that just that both of you played a part in it and all you can do is own your part because you can't make her own hers. That's on her.

Quote
i had a part to play in the demise of the MR, but i did not go outside of it and desecrate it. and again I HATE myself for being unable to provide to my W whatever it was that she needed to make her value the MR. but how much can I sympathize if they go wayward/selfish and just destroy everything?


Agreed. With the benefit of years of hindsight on my sitch I ask myself why I even wanted to reconcile with a woman who would rather quit and run than put an ounce of work into trying to repair the problems. The woman I knew before would have done anything to keep us together, but the woman I saw at BD was a different one. Why she changed I'll never know.

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I think the problem was all me. if i hadn't let her lose respect for me, done more of this or that, etc and thing is as Acc just highlights even if i did all this work and try to cover all my bases, she may still have left.


Yup.

6 months before BD (almost 20 years married):

Wife- "(crying) please you can't let anything happen to yourself, I couldn't bear to go through life without you, I don't know what I would do! (sobbing)

Me- "What? Why are you saying this? I'm fine, there's nothing to worry about!"

Wife- "I just want you to know, I wouldn't survive without you! Just please, take care of yourself!"

6 months later at BD:

Wife- "I can't do this anymore."

Me- "What do you mean? Can't do what?"

Wife- (blank look)

Me- "Do you mean be married?"

Wife- "Yes, I can't do it anymore."

So yes I did things wrong in the M. I own them and I have worked on changing those things about myself. But when the rubber hits the road all I can say is a hearty WHAT THE F??? I mean come on, what changed between 6 months before BD and BD? Nothing at all. So you are right, own your part but accept that it was very likely beyond your control anyway.

Quote
but sadly i do wonder if that will make any difference when women seem to feel so entitled that they should always be happy, no struggles and if there are, well drop the guy and go find another. my IC told me "i don't think the 30 year marriage will continue", i'm sorry then as at my age, I can't emotionally nor financially accept having 6-7 5 year marriages when the happiness meter for modern ladies goes less than 100%.


Agreed. Here's the thing- we don't NEED to get remarried though, do we.
Posted By: DejaVu6

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 09:35 PM

I'm not sure that is a woman thing... my H also has that expectation. I think anyone who cuts and runs from a marriage and a family without first talking to their spouse and trying to fix it, is made of the same cloth. The expectation is that a relationship should be effortless and easy otherwise it is not right. My H seems to have been raised with that idea. I was raised with "nothing worth having is easy"...very different mindset and approach to life.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 11/28/18 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by DejaVu6
I'm not sure that is a woman thing... my H also has that expectation. I think anyone who cuts and runs from a marriage and a family without first talking to their spouse and trying to fix it, is made of the same cloth. The expectation is that a relationship should be effortless and easy otherwise it is not right. My H seems to have been raised with that idea. I was raised with "nothing worth having is easy"...very different mindset and approach to life.


A few years ago I was approached by an ex-gf. She was having marital problems, and I (wrongly probably) confided in her that I was in a SSM.

She suggested we have an affair. I told her no. I said: "I truly believe that if people put the energy they have to put into cheating (the sneaking around, lying, etc) into their marriage, then their marriage would be better and the problems in it could be fixed."

She wanted to take the perceived easy way out. I was advocating putting in the hard work necessary to fix a marriage. I agree with you Deja, anything worth having take hard work.

Found a few years later that she did have an affair. She is still with her husband but found out the hard way that As are not what they seem to be when they are first embarked on.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 11/29/18 01:15 PM

deja...to be clear I can only speak from a guy's perspective regarding ladies, but as I've said before I have seen several guy friends be complete idiots leaving their families in pursuit of "stupid S88T" as I'll call it. the entitled feeling is pervasive to both genders for sure. it "seems" to me that when men walk away they are more likely try and come back, whereas for ladies it "seems" no matter what once gone, they stay gone. maybe that is more of an accurate reflection on the quality of the ladies that men leave rather that the quality of man that a woman leaves.

the ease with which so many of both genders discard their marriages, break up their families for entitled, selfish, me first justifications is terribly sad.

-b
Posted By: DejaVu6

Re: Coda - 11/29/18 01:57 PM

Steve... I, too, was in an SSM. Part of it was the fact that he was gone all the time but even more so was that my H withdrew from me emotionally and I knew it. Without that emotional connection, at least for me, there is little desire to ML. My H’s love language, I think, is physical touch. I haven’t read the book so I can’t be sure what mine is but I suspect that physical touch for me is secondary to needing to know that I am important and wanted by my partner. I rarely felt that with my H. I was pretty much starving for a level of intimacy that my H, for whatever reason, was incapable of giving to me.

Ballast - I would be shocked if my H ever wanted to come back but even more shocked that he would be willing to do the work on himself and take the inevitable hits that would come when he would have to face family members and friends. There are not very many people who know the story but the people who do (my twin and her H, his mother) are pretty major players in our collective life together. You are right... it is so, so sad - especially for the kids. Last night my daughter had a bit of a meltdown. I have a longstanding tradition of making my kids banana pancakes on Sunday mornings and she realized last night that she would be at her dad’s on Sunday morning so would not get pancakes and if she did, she hates her dad’s pancakes. Not a “big deal” in the grand scheme of things but I think, for her, it is maybe that she is starting to realize that her life is changing in a way that she a) does not want and b) is powerless to stop. Broke my heart. frown
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/03/18 01:26 PM

journaling a bit...

so i'm at the point where i know D and i will be fine. that's a simple thing to say, but it represents a HUGE amount of healing from where i started. i LOVE the time that D is with me and still feel that it's completely unfair to her and i that we will lose so much time with each other due to W's action, but there is a part of me that guiltfully enjoys my free time. it's a conflicted feeling to be sure.

been reading the NMMNG book. it's not 100% applicable to me i don't think, but for sure i'm finding alot of good information in there that i can apply towards myself. the WTF happened still occupies my mind, but thankfully has been in a controlled manner. so much of W's words/actions/etc line up with WW, but then pieces don't. the prevailing thing i've been finding is that even if the WW is with OM, the tend to want to keep the MR and their spouse. W has been adamant about getting a D from the start. the thought of if she is not EA/PA/OM, then to throw out our MR with zero effort...the dysfunction of it, the whatever it is...strangely it pushes me further towards my new future. however my mind thinks it through, no reason can justify her decision. course it matters not what i think, only person who needs to get it is her.

anyway...monday morning and finding myself very matter of fact/chill. prayers for all of you suffering.

-B
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/03/18 01:36 PM

B, interesting you start your update the way that you did. As I was getting ready for work today, because we are within 3 weeks of the anniversary of BD in my sitch, I was thinking how much I have grown personally since BD. If she came to me now and said "I tried, I still want out." My reaction would be "ok, good luck". It isn't that I don't love her, but I know that my happiness and fulfillment is bigger than her's and my relationship. That doesn't mean it wouldn't hurt, that it wouldn't be tough, but that in the end I would fine and move forward for me and my D.

I understand the struggle of "why". I think we humans struggle with that mightily in almost every aspect of life. "Why did I have to be in that car accident?" "Why did the company decide to defund my division?" "Why of all the humans on the planet did I get this diagnosis from my Dr?"

One of my favorite quotes is: "Life is 10% what happens to us and 90% how we react to it." I love this because it shows that our happiness and fulfillment in life is in our control! Just heard a story about a man that was living his life, went to a routine physical, and found out shortly later that he only had 4-6 weeks to live.I think about how I would react to that? Would I sulk and mope for the rest of my time, or would I get up and make the absolute most of those final weeks? How long I have to live is not up to me, but how I live the time I have is COMPLETELY up to me!

Hang in there B, you are one of the good ones.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/03/18 01:56 PM

thanks steve...if my mood were an EKG output it would be a straight line! smile

over the weekend i reconnected with a friend from years ago. i found out that she had been divorced and then tragically lost her only son at 15. the benefit of perspective hit me. when i compare my half-time with D to her complete loss of time with her son, well...i count my blessings.

the why answer with time will be revealed. now it may not come from W, but there will come a time where i will see that what happened was necessary for me to "get to the next dot". i see that with Stander, he still has no idea why his W left, but what happened did get him to a better place where he is now. i read the letter that Hurt's WW sent him. i wonder when my W is alone what thoughts go through her mind. it's all theoretical/hypothetical to be sure, but it fascinates me in a way that it's a mystery and makes no logical sense to me. her utter silence, desire to complete blow apart our MR makes it like WW in reverse. maybe as ACC said there is something more mental health, less wayward to explain her, but anyway nothing i can do no matter....once you can soberly fully admit/accept that...that "EKG" being a straight line means you are in a good place.

always appreciate your comments steve!

-B
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:25 PM

It will be great when this is over with...to say that I'm envious of those of you with WW's who can actually express any positive feelings towards you...
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:32 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
It will be great when this is over with...to say that I'm envious of those of you with WW's who can actually express any positive feelings towards you...


ballast, the problem is that you can't believe them. I think of mtb's WW and how every time she wanted something suddenly she was complimentary and talking about future R. Manipulation. When we say "believe NOTHING they say" it isn't because they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt (which they DO NOT). It is because you literally cannot believe anything they say! So WWs that express positive feelings are usually after something.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:38 PM

Steve...LOL yeah been here to long to not agree with what you are saying...mine though with the D paperwork...call it the desire to control, anger/resentment, guilt/shame, whatever...she is something...not even the slightest degree of respect for me even as D's father, it really is something to experience. simply put I see no way for her and I to be good co-parents and definitely no friendship nor R in the future. I would be CRAZY to consider that possibility.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:44 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
Steve...LOL yeah been here to long to not agree with what you are saying...mine though with the D paperwork...call it the desire to control, anger/resentment, guilt/shame, whatever...she is something...not even the slightest degree of respect for me even as D's father, it really is something to experience. simply put I see no way for her and I to be good co-parents and definitely no friendship nor R in the future. I would be CRAZY to consider that possibility.


That is the healthy stance to take. However, one day she may surprise you. But ZERO expectations is the way forward!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:49 PM

lol again it's the ONLY stance I can take given her actions. in effect she is basically trying as best she can to erase me from her life and her entire family. no way one day she surprises me. NO WAY!! :-)

and if for some reason she does, you and ACC and Stander are gonna find me and beat the ever-loving crap out of me if I even THINK of considering! :-)
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:54 PM

Well, I hope you'll at least be open to friendship for your D.
Posted By: Wanted1

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 04:55 PM

ballast,

I feel like our situations are pretty similar in that my W still hasn't given me any real good indication why she wants out. There was an OM that I discovered that started this whole ordeal, but I don't think they've been in contact at all for about a month. If you notice on my thread, I just posted an update talking about how it feels like my W is going dark on me as well! There is just nothing as far as communication goes. Anytime she would communicate with me or open up (if you want to call it that) about her thoughts and feelings were after I initiated the conversation. I'm done doing that and so the result is essentially NC between her and I now.

I have always thought there is a mental health aspect that makes my situation different than most WWs that I've read on here. Her researching her past abuse from her biological father earlier this year definitely has played a part into her emotional stability. I think that's undeniable. She has been a mess because of it. But she did such a good job of covering that up, I had no clue what she was struggling with during that time before BD. That is something that you don't just heal from overnight, either. It will be a long, long process for her. It feels like that in conjunction with the As and waywardness makes for a very tricky and almost impossible scenario.

I, too, struggle with the 'Why' component very much. I've said it in my threads a few times -- my deficiencies and shortcomings are not anything really out of the ordinary in a normal MR. Why my W feels like D is the only option and has never once considered even the thought of R (to me, anyway) or at least trying to work on our problems simply boggles my mind. I will probably never understand it, but the thought of her just nuking my kids' only sense of family without really any justification for doing so is the main reason I can't "move on" so to speak.

While I hate that you are going through what you are, it does give me a small sense of comfort knowing I'm not the only one....stay strong, man. I know that's easier said than done!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 05:06 PM

wanted...up front I am praying for you and your children.

I appreciate your comments and support. I believe there are skeletons in my W's closet though I have no idea what they might be AND she is running her scheme to protect herself via the D process. is it mental health related? meh, IC tells me yeah it is, but I'm not really buying it. I'm focusing on what I feel I could have done better as a husband/man and working to put her in my rear view ASAP. I do (rather DID) love the woman I married, but she is gone now and it is her own dysfunction that pushes me towards healing and my unwritten future. MANY friends have told me "you know B, maybe this is God's way of getting you and D away from her before some bad stuff happens". the mind can be both a wonderful gift and hindrance through the lens of perspective it's provided.

we are definitely not alone on this journey. head down, keep on going through the tunnel to the new light on the other side!

-B
Posted By: Wanted1

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 05:23 PM

Thanks, b. I'll be praying for you and your D too.

I'm pretty positive my W's mental health is a major component. She has tried to separate the two (her own issues and our MR issues) on a few occasions. Once in the joint session we had with our two ICs. At my next IC, my therapist and I both commented on just how bizarre of a statement that really was. It really spoke to her mindset and just how lost and confused she is. It was probably her way of "justifying" her reasons for wanting out of the M by stating that our MR issues have nothing to do with what she is going through, personally. Maybe some day she will understand that they, in fact, are completely tied together. I'm just not sure if I'll be around if she ever does come to that realization.

I'm still waiting for her to communicate to me whether or not she's moving out. She told me last week she was. While it pains me to think about it, part of me does understand that it's probably a necessary part of the process and her own process. It would finally give her the time and space she needs/wants and also an opportunity to experience what life without me and the kids in it everyday really looks like. If that sobers her up, who knows. But I do know it will help in my detachment process. While I can't really say I look forward to it, I do think it might be necessary at this stage of the equation.

I'll be following your sitch. Take care!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 05:40 PM

for me I have focused on what/where I feel I could have been better in the MR and for her, that stuff is within my control to handle, address and improve. now if she has issues/health then it's all on her to deal with if/whenever she decides to. I will say that some of the stuff she has sent me has been delusional, very random and has made my IC say she has the emotional maturity of a 16yo girl so...as is said here, ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys...

having my W out of the house has been a blessing. I have been envious of those who have the chance to see their WW in house, BUT I have learned that was all down to my desire to "action" and show her my changes. once you free yourself from believing you have control over this...quicker you can get free of them the better.

this is a sickening process, no LBS wants to go through it, as ACC has told me many times, the loss of control can be debilitating and make you miserable. it is your life though, god help us all who must experience it and we can do nothing more than go straight through it as best we can.

-B
Posted By: Wanted1

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
I will say that some of the stuff she has sent me has been delusional, very random and has made my IC say she has the emotional maturity of a 16yo girl so...as is said here, ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys...


That's very interesting because my IC said essentially the same thing. She told me that when someone is sexually abused, they pretty much stop maturing emotionally. They are stuck at whatever emotional stage they were in when the traumas occurred. In my Ws case, that took place when she was 2-3 yrs old and then again when she was a teenager. It makes my physically ill to think about what my W has gone through, however, after hearing my IC explain this, it sort of explains, in a sense, where her mindset as been. If she's that immature emotionally, that could explain why she just wants out with no desire to try to fix our M and R. Like all WW, logic and reason play no part in their thoughts and feelings. Then if my W is stunted emotionally because of what she's gone through in the past, that makes it even worse.

Who knows though. Like you said, ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys. I could drive myself nuts thinking about all of this stuff and therefore try not to as best I can.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 10:52 PM

W so I have no idea anything much about W's life before I met her. perhaps that was something each of us should have shared with the other back when we first got serious, kind of a "biography of my partner's life" deal. so for me who knows what if anything transpired in my w's life to contribute to where we are now. what I can say is that throughout my sitch, I have simply not accepted/nor permitted my W's possibly having mental health issues for getting us where we are. maybe she has them, maybe not, the IC emphatically say yes, but I guard against using them as a crutch to free me from being the perfect husband.

absent explanations from our respective W's for WHY, yes we can each drive ourselves crazy speculating especially as then we think perhaps we can fix the WHY. trust me I've spent lots of spare time trying to understand just like every other LBS that ends up here. if you look at Neffer's last post on Hurt's thread, the succinctness, clarity of what he wrote, through away all the psycho babble, that's the simple cold hard truth and way forward for each of us. it is amazingly simple what we must do but entirely ridiculously brutally painful at the same time. the only thing that could possibly be comparable is having our spouse die suddenly. we are all simply trying our best to survive the aftermath of their instant removal from our lives.

I love my wife, simple as that. she is gone now, simple as that. I must move on now, simple as that. I free her with all of the love and forgiveness in my heart that I have and pray God show me mercy and grace to get me through this terrible ordeal. simple as that, that is all I have. many things that happen in this world I suppose we aren't ever meant to understand why and truth can be brutally painful to accept, but accept it we must...again simple as that.

hang tough W..

-B
Posted By: RyanHun

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 10:56 PM

Wanted/Ballast,
Now I am certainly no expert on any of this but I would say there are mental health issues to some degree in almost all sitch's on here. There appears to be a lot of depression, conflict avoidance, emotional immaturity etc.

The why. Isn't that the million dollar question? My W's reason, "I just don't want to be with you like that". That certainly narrows things down doesn't it. Again I think the why or lack of why is due to some of the mental and emotional health issues with our WAS's.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/05/18 11:07 PM

Ryan for sure especially in Wanted's sitch if his W has suffered trauma in the past then there are legit aspects of mental health. I would only caution all of us to work on US first and be mindful of using mental health to excuse us of our part in the MR breaking down.

Beyond there possibly being mental health issues, I think generationally there are much greater forces at play for each of us. the acceptance of divorce, ease of social media creating infidelity, etc. Sandi was gracious enough to speak with me quite a bit about this topic in my prior thread and if you haven't seen it definitely worth a read.

has my IC said my W is depressed, conflict avoidant and emotional immature? yep, but even if she is, guess what ain't done a d**n thing to bring her back to me and I don't feel one bit absolved from my faults of which during our MR assuredly there were many.
Posted By: Wanted1

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 02:37 AM

If my posts came across as my W’s mental state excusing me of any wrong doing, I apologize, because that wasn’t what I intended at all.

I know my faults. I own them and I’m working hard to fix them moving forward. Granted, most of them are things that require interaction, so I haven’t been able to put them to use, but I’m mindful of the changes I need to make. And, as I said ages times previously, most of them are pretty standard complaints that females have about males in a relationship. Nothing that’s so horrible that a “normal” person would consider getting a D over I don’t think. I do know there are changes I can make to make our MR better. I want to make them and will. She has said she doesn’t trust that I can, though.

Some of the complaints my W has of me were basically counter reactive to some of the issues/struggles my W has, which my IC told me are a direct result of past trauma. For example, my wife feeling the need to please men. That comes from the horrors of being sexually abused by two different people in her life whom you should have been able to trust but took advantage of her and put her in submissive positions. Now, in our M, she took that “responsibility” she felt she had to please men and applied it to always going along and doing as I pleased or wanted. The problem there is, I didn’t know she felt that “need” and that she felt as though she couldn’t voice an opinion! That was never communicated to me until recently. I can’t read minds....if she doesn’t give me an opinion and share what she thinks then I assume she’s in agreement with me. That one is the toughest for me to wrap my head around as to why she resents me for it. It wasn’t like I was aware she felt that way and used that knowledge to control or manipulate her into doing whatever I wanted. I wish I would have know. Then I would have at least followed up with her on to get reassurances that she was onboard with whatever it was.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 04:06 PM

W...no i didn't get that sense at all that you were making excuses for yourself. in fact, given what you've said for sure there's a real aspect of that in your sitch.

agreed, i don't think either one of us see our faults severe or horrible enough to justfiy walking away and getting a D, BUT those are OUR feelings and our W's may disagree. i don't think i realized the degree to which my W needed/wanted more emotional interaction with me, but then again she never as an adult said to me "B we need to spend more time together or I need..." I think perhaps she just thought I should known automatically OR heck she may not even have been able to clearly state what she needed/wanted. i have not heard a SINGLE woman ever believe that a man can change. it is terribly difficult for me to try and understand that as a man. there is such an overt finality of thought i get from ladies in these sitches, completely devoid of hope for change. is that because they have an OM or is that because it is simply too emotionally painful for them to reconsider R'ing or once they are done, they are simply done. AS will highlight how ladies can change THEIR minds, I just don't think they think we LBH's can change ourselves. which is terribly unfortunate especially given how much each us have grown and learned to become better husbands just as MWD has said as much in some of her writings.

communication as always comes down to be a common factor here in sitches. men and women we do speak different languages, bottom line we are different. again terribly sad that we men can't pick up on the many times non-verbal or code that our wives "speak" towards us and sad that our ladies many times to not realize how foundationally we love them, yet how terribly poor we are at expressing our feelings in ways that they can understand. it takes both partners being dedicated and committed to working together through this foundational needs in a relationship. it again is so sad where many times at the first signs of frustration/difficulty, one or both of us retract, go silent and allowed for the poison of resentment to take hold.

-B
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 05:27 PM

Just read what you posted on Davide’s sitch and felt the need to send you a hug.

(((B)))


Stay strong there man, yours really is a hard to read process. My best wishes for you and D3, always.
Posted By: Wanted1

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 07:17 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
W...no i didn't get that sense at all that you were making excuses for yourself. in fact, given what you've said for sure there's a real aspect of that in your sitch.

agreed, i don't think either one of us see our faults severe or horrible enough to justfiy walking away and getting a D, BUT those are OUR feelings and our W's may disagree. i don't think i realized the degree to which my W needed/wanted more emotional interaction with me, but then again she never as an adult said to me "B we need to spend more time together or I need..." I think perhaps she just thought I should known automatically OR heck she may not even have been able to clearly state what she needed/wanted. i have not heard a SINGLE woman ever believe that a man can change. it is terribly difficult for me to try and understand that as a man. there is such an overt finality of thought i get from ladies in these sitches, completely devoid of hope for change. is that because they have an OM or is that because it is simply too emotionally painful for them to reconsider R'ing or once they are done, they are simply done. AS will highlight how ladies can change THEIR minds, I just don't think they think we LBH's can change ourselves. which is terribly unfortunate especially given how much each us have grown and learned to become better husbands just as MWD has said as much in some of her writings.

communication as always comes down to be a common factor here in sitches. men and women we do speak different languages, bottom line we are different. again terribly sad that we men can't pick up on the many times non-verbal or code that our wives "speak" towards us and sad that our ladies many times to not realize how foundationally we love them, yet how terribly poor we are at expressing our feelings in ways that they can understand. it takes both partners being dedicated and committed to working together through this foundational needs in a relationship. it again is so sad where many times at the first signs of frustration/difficulty, one or both of us retract, go silent and allowed for the poison of resentment to take hold.

-B


Agree whole heartedly about everything you said. One thing my W said to me the morning after BD has stuck with. Probably a subtle hint of what's to come. She said she read that women who decide they are done, they are done. Or something to that effect. Pretty much the case in my sitch! There hasn't been any signs as though she's ever considered R. Oh well.
Posted By: Accuray

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 07:47 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
if for some reason she does, you and ACC and Stander are gonna find me and beat the ever-loving crap out of me if I even THINK of considering! :-)


Not me sir, I don't believe in closing yourself off to possibilities. If W came back to you and said she wanted to reconcile, that should be regarded as a fresh start, versus a return, and it would be incumbent upon HER to prove to YOU why you should consider it by establishing all the work she's done on herself to make her a better partner for a new relationship.

Acc
Posted By: SoTorn

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 07:57 PM

Originally Posted by Wanted1
ballast,

I feel like our situations are pretty similar in that my W still hasn't given me any real good indication why she wants out. There was an OM that I discovered that started this whole ordeal, but I don't think they've been in contact at all for about a month. If you notice on my thread, I just posted an update talking about how it feels like my W is going dark on me as well! There is just nothing as far as communication goes. Anytime she would communicate with me or open up (if you want to call it that) about her thoughts and feelings were after I initiated the conversation. I'm done doing that and so the result is essentially NC between her and I now.

I have always thought there is a mental health aspect that makes my situation different than most WWs that I've read on here. Her researching her past abuse from her biological father earlier this year definitely has played a part into her emotional stability. I think that's undeniable. She has been a mess because of it. But she did such a good job of covering that up, I had no clue what she was struggling with during that time before BD. That is something that you don't just heal from overnight, either. It will be a long, long process for her. It feels like that in conjunction with the As and waywardness makes for a very tricky and almost impossible scenario.

I, too, struggle with the 'Why' component very much. I've said it in my threads a few times -- my deficiencies and shortcomings are not anything really out of the ordinary in a normal MR. Why my W feels like D is the only option and has never once considered even the thought of R (to me, anyway) or at least trying to work on our problems simply boggles my mind. I will probably never understand it, but the thought of her just nuking my kids' only sense of family without really any justification for doing so is the main reason I can't "move on" so to speak.

While I hate that you are going through what you are, it does give me a small sense of comfort knowing I'm not the only one....stay strong, man. I know that's easier said than done!



I am in the same stitch. W wants D, but won't file. I can't get a clear "why". Before BD and after the A started I kept getting the rewritten history scenario. WW blamed her detachment on our past and would not let go of the past. WW hasn't even hinted on R. WW did a bit of waffling before BD, but once I outed the A, all she could focus on was D. The "why" turned into "this isnt fixable".
Posted By: SoTorn

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 08:00 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
for me I have focused on what/where I feel I could have been better in the MR and for her, that stuff is within my control to handle, address and improve. now if she has issues/health then it's all on her to deal with if/whenever she decides to. I will say that some of the stuff she has sent me has been delusional, very random and has made my IC say she has the emotional maturity of a 16yo girl so...as is said here, ain't my circus, ain't my monkeys...

having my W out of the house has been a blessing. I have been envious of those who have the chance to see their WW in house, BUT I have learned that was all down to my desire to "action" and show her my changes. once you free yourself from believing you have control over this...quicker you can get free of them the better.

this is a sickening process, no LBS wants to go through it, as ACC has told me many times, the loss of control can be debilitating and make you miserable. it is your life though, god help us all who must experience it and we can do nothing more than go straight through it as best we can.

-B



At first I was I guess "happy" that my WW didn't move out. However, now that I continue to detach I actually loath the fact that she is home when I am and that we are on IHS. When WW is home and not traveling for work, I am scarce. WW traveling used to be a trigger before I confirmed the A. Now I feel at peace when she is gone, even knowing she is probably with OM. When I don't see her its easier to detach.
Posted By: Wanted1

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 08:34 PM

Originally Posted by SoTorn

I am in the same stitch. W wants D, but won't file. I can't get a clear "why". Before BD and after the A started I kept getting the rewritten history scenario. WW blamed her detachment on our past and would not let go of the past. WW hasn't even hinted on R. WW did a bit of waffling before BD, but once I outed the A, all she could focus on was D. The "why" turned into "this isnt fixable".


Wow. Sounds like a mirror image!

Hang tough, my friend. It's so easy to say to everyone else but much harder to put into practice, although I feel like it gets better every day. I haven't had a temp-check at all. If I do get one, not sure how I'll handle it. I just hope it doesn't send me spiraling after coming as far as I have.....I think I'd rather just not have one at all.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/06/18 11:47 PM

So I was able to stop and see my little D at daycare today. She’s not with me now so seeing her even if just for a few minutes is a huge deal. She was so happy to see me, hugged me so tightly…and sadly didn’t want to let me go. Things happen every second in this world that are tragically unfair…for me, my D not wanting to let me go is one of those. I pray to God that she will somehow come through this experience and live the rest of her life unscathed by what her momma and I are going through. There ain’t much that can hurt me emotionally anymore…as I read somewhere on here the fire of this ordeal is remolding me into a stronger, better man and father…but I ain’t gonna lie hurts like H**L to have to let her stay behind.

Went to my IC today. Talked about a wide range of subjects. I like the lady I work with. She’s open to free forming with me as things come up, pushes me in areas that I can work on while at the same time ever mindful of not letting me believe this is all my fault. There’s a lot of good work I can do within myself to improve in some areas, although she cautioned me to stay true to myself. She said “look I know you don’t want this divorce, but get it done so you can go on and find someone who will love you as much as you love them.” In her words my W will/can not put in the emotional work required to make a marriage successful. As I was leaving she said to me “your wife is full on consumed the D process, I do not believe she has done any work on dealing with the ending of this relationship.” I was flabbergasted, I mean we’ve been split for going on a year and H**L I’ve been dealing with it, moving through it the whole time. IC believes she will simply compartmentalize it away and use all of her energy to keep it suppressed. That some crazy hard stuff to believe or heck even imagine it possible. Anyway…

Oh yeah and so after my IC I went out to a enjoy a good steak dinner. I must say I enjoy going out and having a good meal from time to time. Nothing major tonight, 14oz center cut sirloin, baked potato and broccoli with a cold draft beer. Cleaned the plate and it was a great meal. When the season and grill of the steak is so well done that you need not steak sauce…you got something good there and that was the case tonight. So anyway I’m heading back to my place and there’s a incident on the way I normally go which routes me around where W is staying with D. Well tonight I had to go past her place, but thought nothing of it as it’s dark…eh, forgot it was Xmas time. As I went by for the first time I saw all of the lights and decorations W had put up. I was happy for D to have and enjoy the wonder of the season as they say, but to have it highlighted to me that I was on the outside looking in at the warm house all festively lit…yeah it was a kick in the n*ts for sure. Not a single D**N thing I can do about any of this, but shake it off and keep on moving ahead.

-B
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/07/18 11:07 AM

missed replying back to a few prior posts relative to my last one...

Originally Posted by neffer
Stay strong there man, yours really is a hard to read process. My best wishes for you and D3, always.


thank you neffer! you'll see from my last post above IC thinks W has not even begun to process the ending of our relationship...and may never. that seems impossible to me. her not wanting to do the emotional work necessary for the marriage, yep i can see that. IC said W is avoiding counseling either because she's guilty of something or she knows that her reason for leaving is indefensible. no matter of any of this though really. W wants the D so i'm going to give it to her. there will have been so much damage done by her to me...someday i'll be able to forgive her likely when like Davide i move on to a new good person, but i'll never be able to forget how she ended us and the terrible pain she put me through.

Originally Posted by Accuray
Not me sir, I don't believe in closing yourself off to possibilities. If W came back to you and said she wanted to reconcile, that should be regarded as a fresh start, versus a return, and it would be incumbent upon HER to prove to YOU why you should consider it by establishing all the work she's done on herself to make her a better partner for a new relationship.


LOL...i was wondering when i'd hear your response! AND it was consistent with my expectations for what i thought you would say. you ARE right in that we should not close ourselves off to possibilities and if by miracle she returned, i'd hear her out, but as i've said before if there was an OM, there would be no chance. that is a hard stop for me. i would HATE it but no way i'd ever get past a PA w/OM. her coming back and being as you say...heck all i've ever wanted was her and me working together in an MR. it's nice to dream, fantasize, but my gut tells me there's already been an OM and so her and i are already over. time will tell all for sure.

-B
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/10/18 01:36 PM

just struggling a bit these last few days...the usual stuff, wanting on the one hand to get the D process done just to be done with it, while not wanting it all. wondering about the future, apprehension...pretty clear it's finalize D, sell house, get place to live, work/enjoy time with D. lots of just "i can't believe this is happening/i don't want it to happen". my IC saying she doesn't think W has even begun to process the loss of our MR...blows my mind. oddly i don't have much thought about what W is thinking. it's more like just the "here i am, i'm tired of this, how much longer, what comes next".

-B
Posted By: Grace21

Re: Coda - 12/10/18 01:57 PM

B - After a pretty good stretch of feeling good, recently I've been apprehensive too. Christmas and how we will celebrate is at the top of the list right now. All of these feelings you are having are normal, although exhausting. I'm tired too, and my journey has only just begun. Hugs.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/10/18 04:18 PM

Grace...yeah finding the motivation for Xmas if only for my D is tough. guess I'm like "if you are going to kill me/us, then do it NOW" so I can be done and dusted of you. thankfully I'm not at all inclined to contact her and as I say it's not at all me going "what is W feeling". just ready to get out of the tunnel no matter what its like on the other side...

thank you for your comments/support!

-B
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 12:14 PM

you know i wonder truly what i have...i read of folks having waywards who cry, temp check, ask for pictures of kids, exchange pictures, try to keep the LBH as a plan B, TALK...me, absolutely none of that has happened. sorry all i know it really matters not in the grand scheme of things. i know she is working with her friends to improve her place and so is for sure going to complete the D. i guess i just cycle and struggle from time to time on if she is not wayward (ie OM) then again the word WHY. and i guess again it does not matter as the truth is the truth in that she's gone and nothing i can do to change it. i wonder was there anything different i could have done, but the truth is again the truth and no, leaving her alone/letting her go is all i can do. the simplicity of WHAT we can DO no matter the sitch always amazes me, we basically do nothing but let them go and save ourselves. i know she is casting off being a wife/married and casting off being a family. perhaps it was just that she decided she wants none of that anymore. impossible for me to understand, but if those are her feelings and that was the case, again nothing for me to do but keep moving on for me and D. i'm sorry all, my sitch just compared to everyone else's WW sitch just does not match. it is very hard sometimes when you can't put a finger on really why your spouse left and that's where i find myself. our marriage had troubles yes...maybe she just thought they were far more terrible than i did. have to remind myself no matter what the reason, it was her choice. tough to deal with in absence of a showstopper reason.

-b
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 01:03 PM

Hi B. While is it ok to wonder all of those "whys" we can concur that W is a trobled MLC person. Selfishness is a common denominator in some of our sitches, and sometimes there are inner triggers that take us to those misty roads.
Anyways, what can you do now? Just keep sailing your course and be there for D3.

We know it´s a bitter pill to swallow. Give time the time.

Stay strong man
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 01:10 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
tough to deal with in absence of a showstopper reason.


It is tough to deal with. In my case there was no obvious reason either. Early on (before I discovered DBing) I asked many times for an explanation. What did I do wrong, what went wrong in the M, was it just something she was going through, was it a medical condition, was it a mental breakdown, was it because of long-term anti-depressant usage etc. etc. I think it's the "fix-it" side of us that seeks an answer to that so we can formulate a solution. "Tell me what the problem is and I'll solve it" sort of thing. Unfortunately it's not that simple. Usually the WAS doesn't even know themselves why they want out. It's just some internal emotional reaction to what they perceive as an intolerable situation, but often they don't even know why it suddenly feels intolerable. It just is. So we end up here, dazed and confused and looking for answers. We don't have the answers to "why" on these forums, all we have are tips and techniques for learning to live with your "new normal" and getting used to it, and accepting that you'll never have the answers you so desperately want.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 01:26 PM

neffter/AS...thanks fellas. i know i sound like a broken record to most of you on this board and i apologize up front for that. to not have that "a ha, causative" reason for this...much more like she died than left. my little D is so sweet and loving on her father, it pains me a great deal in contrast to how her M sees me. anything to do with wedding, family or house she is discarding. very hard to understand but i guess the simple answer is give up seeking to understand. LOL what a d88n way to have to be, but that's the facts. again appreciate you all putting up with what sounds like the same musings from me over and over.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
i know i sound like a broken record to most of you on this board and i apologize up front for that.


It's no problem, I think that's part of the recovery process. We keep asking "Why, why, why????" until one day we quit asking and just let it go. Even now I sometimes find myself wondering what happened but now it's more out of a sense of curiosity than any desperate need to know so I can fix things. Anyway, keep asking as many times as you need to. These forums are here for us to vent our frustrations that we can't vent anywhere else.

Quote
much more like she died than left.


I remember way back years ago on my thread saying that I thought it would have been easier to process my ex dying, right? I mean it's very painful to lose a loved one, but you go through the grieving process and then let them go. But this, it's like your W died, but she's still there. But you can't tell how much of her is left. And you don't know whether to let her go or not. Is she sick and she will get better? Or is she gone for good? That's part of the frustration. Anyway I am not at all wishing death on my ex, just commenting on how the finality of death is easier to deal with than this strange WAS limbo.

Quote
my little D is so sweet and loving on her father, it pains me a great deal in contrast to how her M sees me.


I'm convinced that changes in nearly every case, except maybe where a WAS is mentally ill. They do eventually come out of the fog and they do remember their M and their spouse in a better light. That doesn't necessarily mean recon, but you're not going to be "the bad guy" in her eyes forever.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 02:13 PM

And there´s also the need to live the real time. Check the reality, accept it and keep moving forward. Sometimes those "what if" act like anchors that keep us just buoying. Well, we need to cut those chains and be free to move. Not an easy thing to do.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 02:30 PM

AS...for me as my sitch has gone on and there's been only silence and avoidance it is really much less WHY and way more "what is up with her". I get lulled into the "well she's a WW" i think because it's more convenient to see my sitch in the others i read, but a good bit of that just simply doesn't match up. i don't think at all on how to fix her, only her path through her life can take her to wherever it's going to take her. i know that confidently and I'm grounded in that reality.

yes, i've had that thought before regarding dying. there is a total absence of ANYTHING from her, yet she's there. definitely concur on who knows what's left, i do completely know i have to continue letting her go, sick/will she get better/gone for good...only thing that i'm running towards is myself being gone for good from this situation. that is the only thing that saves me. again we had a non-communicative marriage towards the end, she was unhappy about mom/wife/family/life, we could have both been better, maybe it was a simple as that. but her just completely dying to me, zero contact outside of D...the cause relative to the reaction from her just makes no sense.

i'm just going to keep walking away from her. probably when she feels that her new life/decision is safe from judgement she may soften...i will not be there if that time ever comes. i've been emotionally abused long enough.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by neffer
And there´s also the need to live the real time. Check the reality, accept it and keep moving forward.


Yes, neffer exactly that. To me in as few words as possible you just summed up DB'ing to me. All of us can read and post and ponder and this and that and the other....what you just said in those fews words is what it always comes back to. thanks buddy.
Posted By: Accuray

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
i read of folks having waywards who cry, temp check, ask for pictures of kids, exchange pictures, try to keep the LBH as a plan B, TALK...me, absolutely none of that has happened.


Your sitch is not unique ballast. Waywards and walkaways all act differently but few if any can give you a satisfying answer for "why".

The "why" is obviously about feeling out of control and trying to protect yourself from stepping into this again. You will never get a valid "why", even she doesn't know. She can make something up that fits the circumstances and sounds logical, but the real causes are far more complex and intermingled and probably have less to do with you than you might expect.

In my case I *knew* I was a good husband all along, and that's why the "big why" was particularly troublesome for me. It was never answered to my satisfaction either and I just had to accept that -- that's the way these things go.

Acc
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Accuray
I just had to accept that -- that's the way these things go.


Acc...yep, that's the simple painful truth. I know that. One day my mind/heart will be free.

-B
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 05:12 PM

Originally Posted by Accuray
Originally Posted by ballast
i read of folks having waywards who cry, temp check, ask for pictures of kids, exchange pictures, try to keep the LBH as a plan B, TALK...me, absolutely none of that has happened.


Your sitch is not unique ballast. Waywards and walkaways all act differently but few if any can give you a satisfying answer for "why".

The "why" is obviously about feeling out of control and trying to protect yourself from stepping into this again. You will never get a valid "why", even she doesn't know. She can make something up that fits the circumstances and sounds logical, but the real causes are far more complex and intermingled and probably have less to do with you than you might expect.

In my case I *knew* I was a good husband all along, and that's why the "big why" was particularly troublesome for me. It was never answered to my satisfaction either and I just had to accept that -- that's the way these things go.

Acc


So true. This is why it is important to realize that it can happen to even the best LBS.We want a why so we can fix it.

Now I can say that in my case, I was far from perfect. I could even go far as saying I deserved it. (Yeah, I was pretty bad at the time of BD.) But while my WW could point to bad behavior as a cause, she couldn't explain why she had put it up with it for so long, and why NOW was the time to do something. (She claimed it was turning 50, and that might have had something to do with it, but I honestly believe it was a perfect storm of factors (finding the singing app, OM timing, etc). The key is to learn and grow, no matter what your sitch or how it turns out. EVERYONE can make improvements. Use this opportunity to make them.
Posted By: ovrrnbw

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 05:26 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
Originally Posted by Accuray
I just had to accept that -- that's the way these things go.


Acc...yep, that's the simple painful truth. I know that. One day my mind/heart will be free.

-B

Make it today.

Make that your mindset: "Today, I will let go of what I can't control and make it the best day it can be".

Did you ever watch The Sopranos? Remember when Tony is depressed and just seems so down and out? Well, when they try to kill him, he fights back, wins, and in doing so realizes that he wants to live and be happy. I bet if your life flashed before your eyes, you'd want to take advantage of it today and seize the day.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 05:27 PM

really do appreciate all of your responses...again i feel like i cycle through from time to time, fighting against a truth that just is and all of you are so kind in your support even when what's to come is inevitable. there's a song that goes "i guess it's cause the truth is the hardest thing i've ever faced, because you can't change the truth in the slightest way...cause i've tried" that's me and my sitch.

this is pointless fellas for me to keep posting. lol ain't much point to posting when the facts are as clean and simple as they are AND my only action no matter what is forward to whatever the future holds. i really do appreciate you all so much! i'm tired of hurting, hope you all can forgive me.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/11/18 05:33 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
really do appreciate all of your responses...again i feel like i cycle through from time to time, fighting against a truth that just is and all of you are so kind in your support even when what's to come is inevitable. there's a song that goes "i guess it's cause the truth is the hardest thing i've ever faced, because you can't change the truth in the slightest way...cause i've tried" that's me and my sitch.

this is pointless fellas for me to keep posting. lol ain't much point to posting when the facts are as clean and simple as they are AND my only action no matter what is forward to whatever the future holds. i really do appreciate you all so much! i'm tired of hurting, hope you all can forgive me.


I see a bright and happy future for you ballast! I know it is tough for you to see that right now, but I believe that is out there for you!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/14/18 02:46 PM

So they don’t really make Christmas ornaments for broken families
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/14/18 02:59 PM

Why do you want one?
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/14/18 03:20 PM

I mean Daddy/Daughter type that can have names on them. For our tree and current reality. W left only anything to do with pre BD life so need new stuff.
Posted By: Twofeet

Re: Coda - 12/14/18 03:28 PM

B,

I wouldn't call them broken family ornaments. They do make Daddy/Daughter ornaments. You just might not find something like that online. Go to Christmas bazaars. This month my mother gave me an ornament that was of me and my 3 kids with our names on it. It hangs front and center on our tree.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 01:31 PM

TF...thank you for the information. it took me a bit of forcing myself to do it, but my D and I managed to create our own unique version of a Xmas tree that we are happy with.

journaling...there is so much good information available online for any of us on here. really no matter WAW/WW/MLC/alien the action plan is always the same...save yourself and your family. i think it takes us all time to get to a place where we can finally accept what is being provided to us AND be willing to believe it and action on it, but there is continued strength within us once we reach that point. not sure why i'm posting this really beyond i've just come to realize "there was nothing I did to cause this and nothing i can do to fix this". doesn't mean I can't nor do not have much i can work on within myself to become a better man/partner in a relationship, but getting to that reality has been very important for me. it gives me hope...of what i'm not sure...maybe just hope that I'll be ok and that's enough.

-B
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 02:50 PM

Can't link outside but do a google search on Bronner's. Then in their search look up daddy daughter ornaments.
Posted By: neffer

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 03:16 PM

Stay strong B!!!

You are making new memories for D3, new Christmas memories. Those memories are forever. Go for them man!

(((hugs))) for D3 and B!
Posted By: Adam04

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 04:57 PM

Hi Ballast,

Catching up on your sitch. I can see why you are wanting answers. If you had them, what would you do then and would it be different from what you need to do now?

I have a IHS with WW and although I don't know details I know it's enough for me to move forward and work on myself. She'll deny anything is going on. I have a S10 and S6 and I think this may be our last Christmas together but I'm not going to allow that to control how I act like trying to overdo anything. Enjoy life for what it is.

Enjoy this time with your D3. Love yourself. Find peace that the people you still care for are still on this Earth and that although this is the most difficult thing, we should use this time to center ourselves and put focus on what really matters in our lives. (())
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 05:54 PM

Throughout this whole process, I have marveled at the words and time expenses discussing all this when the facts and what we must do can be said in so very few words. Case in point the following which today I have arrived at:

I am better off without her.
Posted By: AnotherStander

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 09:58 PM

Originally Posted by ballast
Throughout this whole process, I have marveled at the words and time expenses discussing all this when the facts and what we must do can be said in so very few words. Case in point the following which today I have arrived at:

I am better off without her.


Sometimes we have to take the scenic route to our destination, LOL!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/17/18 10:19 PM

Stander...yep that. :-)

It truly is such a crazy thing how long/hard it is to drop the rope, let them go, get a life. Seriously 9 simple words to get you from where you were to where you need to be. it is terribly painful though...who can find any fault with any of us for wanting the ideal of love, family and forever.

I guess the only other thing I know is that and again as Sandi has said a zillion times, once my W really feels the consequences of her actions...that time for my W is coming although I will be in no way around to see it...I just know it's coming for her at some point.

D4 :-) and me is all I got...and it's more than enough...
Posted By: LoneWlf

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 01:59 PM

Hey b, been a while . I've read most of your posts and it seems that you are accepting what may become for most of us our outcome. From what I've read it shows you have taken the time to reflect and to heal. Like they say hear the path to healing is not linear - like most of us I see the ups and downs but for you I feel that strong semblance of balance. It seems you are taking things in stride and are strong in resolution of reaching your objective of detachment. I commend you for this. I am trying to do the same but feel I am somewhat stuck in the anger phase( not healthy I know) . Know that my prayers are with you and D. May you have a blessed Christmas!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 06:30 PM

LW...yes it has been a while. I guess enough time has gone past for me now that I am to the point of "what other choice do I have" ya know? I have definitely taken the time to understand as best I can the things within me and my actions that led to where I am today. of course a HUGE portion of my sitch exists within my WW and her choice to leave so I can't even be sure what I think I might have done was in fact what caused her to exit. all of this is speculative guessing in a sense. as folks say here I might have thought and done everything right and she still may have bolted so...life is unfair sometimes no matter what we do or try.

I think for me as I've said all along, my gut tells me there is OM and if there is, then the MR and possible R is closed off to me. Am I hedging my bets, yep I am...If someday WW came back around, I don't contemplate that possibility. I just focus on the here and now. her being with someone post-me is for now a dealbreaker. but I love her and I'm a Christian and I'm to forgive her and love selflessly...so just gonna have to let the chips fall where they may. right now I'm not even interested in dating. not because I'm bitter or scared or working on myself, I'm just not interested. having a great time doing things with my D and being a Dad and reconnecting with my own interests/hobbies when D is not around. if I ever did get back into online dating or dating in general, unlike in times past I have no intention of being the pursuer. if some lady shows interest in me, great...if not, guess the ol' profile will just sit out there.

I wish I could say I was taking this in stride. the reality is what the reality is ya know? only so long you can beat your head against a closed door before you get tired and say to yourself "hmmm, maybe I ought to just go on and escape out this window" and that's all I'm doing. my wife CHOSE THIS so from her decision our marriage ends. I can beat myself up 24/7/365 but it will not change a single d**n thing. so kick, scream, yell, cry, do whatever but you will finally reach a point of acceptance because the only one being held back until you do, is you...and that means, you let your WW win and ain't no WW deserving of that. my guess for why you are still in an anger phase is that you are more deeply rooted in your faith that divorce is unacceptable. for me while I believe divorce is unacceptable I am more willing to accept God saying to me "hey B, yeah I know I said I don't like divorce, but look I'm teaching you things you need to know to be a better man, spouse and even Christian so look I have future plans for you, it's ok to let this one go, just trust me".

I had been wondering what was up with you as I hadn't seen your posts for a while. I wish you and your son a blessed Merry Christmas as well. I hope that during this time of peace and good will towards men, that God's spirit will work within you to help you free yourself from your anger. he knows you have stood for your marriage honorably as best you could, allow yourself the grace and peace to see that perhaps he is try to lead you in another direction. my best to you buddy!

-B
Posted By: Bo562

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 06:49 PM

Originally Posted by ballast


my wife CHOSE THIS so from her decision our marriage ends. I can beat myself up 24/7/365 but it will not change a single d**n thing. so kick, scream, yell, cry, do whatever but you will finally reach a point of acceptance because the only one being held back until you do, is you...and that means, you let your WW win and ain't no WW deserving of that. my guess for why you are still in an anger phase is that you are more deeply rooted in your faith that divorce is unacceptable. for me while I believe divorce is unacceptable I am more willing to accept God saying to me "hey B, yeah I know I said I don't like divorce, but look I'm teaching you things you need to know to be a better man, spouse and even Christian so look I have future plans for you, it's ok to let this one go, just trust me".


My sitch is different, and we’re not even to S (yet), but I’ve thought about this.

Are there things that I could have / should have done different? Yeah sure. But the same is true for all of us, W included.

As a Catholic I do find divorce unacceptable (except for something extreme, and an affair would qualify as that), and she and I talked about that in the abstract at numerous points, and we are both in agreement that this is definitely on the table if that occurs. “Cheat on me? I’ll divorce you and take you to the cleaners financially and with respect to child custody.” (For me, I would also work on getting the marriage annulled, too.)

But as a Catholic, I can’t also discount what you wrote, too—that maybe He works through different messengers and situations. “Hey, I know what my law and my Church proscribe, and I know you’re trying to be faithful to Me, but...”
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 06:56 PM

Originally Posted by Bo562
Originally Posted by ballast


my wife CHOSE THIS so from her decision our marriage ends. I can beat myself up 24/7/365 but it will not change a single d**n thing. so kick, scream, yell, cry, do whatever but you will finally reach a point of acceptance because the only one being held back until you do, is you...and that means, you let your WW win and ain't no WW deserving of that. my guess for why you are still in an anger phase is that you are more deeply rooted in your faith that divorce is unacceptable. for me while I believe divorce is unacceptable I am more willing to accept God saying to me "hey B, yeah I know I said I don't like divorce, but look I'm teaching you things you need to know to be a better man, spouse and even Christian so look I have future plans for you, it's ok to let this one go, just trust me".


My sitch is different, and we’re not even to S (yet), but I’ve thought about this.

Are there things that I could have / should have done different? Yeah sure. But the same is true for all of us, W included.

As a Catholic I do find divorce unacceptable (except for something extreme, and an affair would qualify as that), and she and I talked about that in the abstract at numerous points, and we are both in agreement that this is definitely on the table if that occurs. “Cheat on me? I’ll divorce you and take you to the cleaners financially and with respect to child custody.” (For me, I would also work on getting the marriage annulled, too.)

But as a Catholic, I can’t also discount what you wrote, too—that maybe He works through different messengers and situations. “Hey, I know what my law and my Church proscribe, and I know you’re trying to be faithful to Me, but...”


Bo I am not sure what you are trying to say but the New Testament is pretty clear. That adultery is grounds for D. Not sure what the Catholic church says, but that is what the scripture says.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 07:11 PM

Bo...for any LBS here I will almost guarantee that their sitch has FAR more to do with whatever is up with the WW/WH than them. we are all imperfect and for sure with the benefit of hindsight we can see those imperfections more clearly, but in the rigors of day to day life how many of us can cover every single d**n thing we SHOULD/COULD have done? and again, who are we to say if we even really know what it was that ticked off our spouses? marriage at a certain point is a total crap shoot of faith that the two people who vowed to each other can make it work, sadly many times they can't. the idea to me that any of us LBS's via self examination can totally correct everything we did wrong...that is a cheeseless tunnel as we say around here.

I go back to, they left/have other person/don't want to be married anymore/whatever the reason it is the TRUTH for the LBS to learn to handle however they can. it takes each of us a person journey to get to the point where enough is enough. H88L I love the woman I married to this day, never wanted any of this, but...it does not matter, she gone. as I said in an earlier post you can sum up the ENTIRE story about what happened to us and what we must do in a single paragraph. I would say actually even in less than 20 total words. that is just mind numbingly unfair to all of us, but it's true.

Again let me say I'm far from a devout Christian insofar as church attendance, bible study, etc BUT "I" have a relationship with my God and through that and perhaps at times contrary to established church doctrines he and I speak to one another about my life. Simply I do not put what the church says I must do between he and I which is exactly what you wrote. I believe if you walk in the spirit of the Lord that path you take ain't always gonna be straight nor clear nor proper, BUT your persistence and willingness to follow in the path he has provided for you will lead you to the answers and peace. Like I said take what I say how you will. It's simply the way that works for me. My best to you friend!

-B
Posted By: LH19

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 08:37 PM

I didn't want to hijack the other thread but in 4 years being on this board, approximately 90% of the posters end up divorced. I remember for like a 2 year span everyone used Texhubby as the example, because he was the only one for years who prevented a divorce. The three years of limbo almost killed him though.

I think more realistically speaking is a chance at recon many years down the road. Once it has been determined the grass isn't greener on the other side.

Even now with Joe2017. Truth be told he was terrible at DB and it looks like he got lucky that her OP was a loser.
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 08:47 PM

Yeah when I started Txhubby was still a “success” story. As you say with Joe I think when reading his sitch his WW was being way more apologetic even if she was still WW. Truth is it’s a bloodbath success wise as in saved marriages but saved lives of those left behind the lessons here are equally successful.
Posted By: LH19

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 08:55 PM

No I agree following DB changed my life and I definitely am a success story from where I started.

I just question Steve's data when he says things like 50/50 and most WW will not follow through with D. I think it is everyone's tendency to base a lot on what happened in their own sitch.

I really wish there was true data here.
Posted By: Steve85

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 09:01 PM

Originally Posted by LH19
I didn't want to hijack the other thread but in 4 years being on this board, approximately 90% of the posters end up divorced. I remember for like a 2 year span everyone used Texhubby as the example, because he was the only one for years who prevented a divorce. The three years of limbo almost killed him though.

I think more realistically speaking is a chance at recon many years down the road. Once it has been determined the grass isn't greener on the other side.

Even now with Joe2017. Truth be told he was terrible at DB and it looks like he got lucky that her OP was a loser.


Maybe you are right. I think 50/50 gives the DBer hope that if they play their cards right there is a chance.

Oh...and all OP are losers!
Posted By: ballast

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 09:23 PM

I think saving an MR pre-D with a WW is unlikely. Per Sandi’s timeline those folks are nowhere near through whatever they may be dealing with before D. Now after D I think the odds become much better. For the vast majority of us LBS folks though we hate the thought the fact is we are better off free from the crazy and abuse we are getting from our wayward spouse. But we love them, our families, who would ever blame us for standing.
Posted By: Cadet

Re: Coda - 12/18/18 09:37 PM

Please start a new thread you are over 100 posts
Posted By: Bo562

Re: Coda - 12/19/18 06:42 AM

Hi Steve,

Apologies if being unclear—not my intent. I have heard the argument that scripture allows D for adultery, and this is an especially common argument for Protestant Christians; the Catholic Church teaches that D is only morally permissible “[i]f civil divorce remains the only possible way of ensuring certain legal rights, the care of the children, or the protection of inheritance, it can be tolerated and does not constitute a moral offense.” (Catechism of the Catholic Church #2383). I would then imagine that following a civil D, a church annulment should follow next. (Really don’t mean to get into the theological weeds—if you want to know more, message me, or hop over to my thread. I talk about topics like this in my day job.).



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