Link to previous thread:Hopefully I did the thread linking correctly. Figured I needed to change the title to stereotypical LBS. While I am dealing with a textbook WAW there is nothing that I can control in that regard and my main focus is improving myself and moving away from being the typical LBS stuck in a downward spiral.
R2C,
The link is working on my end if I click it, is it not on yours?
It was linked to page 11. mouse over, but don't click and you should see the differences.
Just a little Monday update for my own notes. The weekend started off really well, did two GAL activities on Friday including meeting with my new mens group. The mens group is turning out to be the best thing I have ever done for myself. A great group of individuals just getting together to hear about what is happening in one an other's lives and supporting each other. I always feel so refreshed after attending and for any of the other men on here that don't have a group of supportive men in their lives I highly recommend it. Afterwords I went and met up with a friend for a drink and we spent several hours just talking which was really nice. Saturday started out well hanging out with the kids but I took a major step back with detaching and that continues today. Today is my birthday and we had a family celebration on Saturday night that just brought all the incredibly strong feelings of loneliness and hurt back up. I know these things will happen likely for a while and I just need to remind myself to keep focusing on my self and loving myself, accepting my sitch for what it is and eventually I will get past it but it was a very hard couple of days. Got a "Happy Birthday" text from W today, nothing more, nothing less, not sure what I expected but it was at least something. I'm learning more and more each day about myself, the person I want to be and the relationship I want to have with someone in the future and am making progress with forgiving myself for the mistakes I made in the relationship.
Thanks for the Birthday wishes R2C.
The past couple of days I have noticed a real shift in myself and perhaps detaching is really starting to take hold. Each day is still up and down like a roller coaster. I have great days filled with happiness, confidence and a bright outlook to the future. I also have some very sad and lonely days mixed in there. It is the sad days that I notice the change and I don't really know how to explain it. The sadness is different somehow. It is not about what WAW is doing to our family or how our relationship has been the last year on both our parts or anything of that nature really. The sad feelings have shifted more to a sad things couldn't have turned out different and sad that it has ended this way but there is a level of acceptance underneath it all now and that "I'm going to be OK" and "I have a lot going for me and this may actually be a great opportunity for me" feeling is constantly there mixed in. I'm not sure if that makes sense reading it from others perspectives but that difference in the sadness feels good, it feels more like a healthy sadness now.
That's progress in my book. Now you just work on making your life better for you and not being a poor weakling chasing around someone who doesn't want you.
Got a ways to go on all of that but again day by day it's getting better. I still slip up from time to time but it happens. I don't let the slip ups bug me anymore, I regroup, evaluate what I did, make notes of the mistake and move on. That goes for everything that has happened really. I made a lot of mistakes, not just with W but with the kind of person I was being. I recognize what areas need improvement, I'm slowly working on those and eventually will get there. I think that in itself buts me a step above.
Its strange how the universe works. Everything seemed to be going wrong for the last year and a half. In the last month and a half since BD I have GAL, made a lot of new friends, got a whole bunch of my confidence back, and this afternoon our CFO approached me and offered me a new role. Significant pay increase and an amazing position. I really feel like a million bucks right now.
Congratulations Ryan.
I relate to how you're feeling in terms of having the good moments and the feelings of sadness mixed in and how the shifts in the sadness are occurring. I wonder long-term what the sadness will ultimately "settle" as (or if it will always keep evolving) and I think that's where I trip myself up and make things worse ... that I am not only thinking about the current state, but how this is going to feel later and being scared that I'll never feel "normal" again.
For me, even if it's improving, I still long for how things "were" and who I "was" in my marriage. Everyone says you will never be the same but that "different" does not equal worse, as hard is that is to believe sometimes. I heard a saying along the lines of: who are we to say or judge that our future doesn't hold something better for us?
But I am not a creature of chance or fate, so I hate that
. We are creatures of control and habit, for sure!
TJT,
I started a new book this weekend, “The subtle art of not giving a F@$K”. It is worth a read and may help you with some of your wondering. It really puts into persepective what happiness is and how to achieve it. Long story short, do you really want to go back to how things were? All of the emotions we are feeling as the LBS, all of the pain and suffering, it is all a necasary part of the human body and mind to alert us to danger. Similar to physical pain it is signalling us that something is drastically wrong and we need to learn from this in order to protect ourselves. Think touching a hot stove. The physical pain teaches us not to do that again. In much the same way the emotional pain we are all going through is teaching us to change so we don’t get hurt again. Until very recently I had the same mindset as you, “once we were so happy”, “we were the couple everyone looked to for how the perfect marriage worked”. In all honestly I was lying to myself daily and should have drastically changed or pulled th plug long ago. I am learning at an alarming pace that I want nothing to do with my previous marriage. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be with WAW any more, that is still all I truly want. But I want a divorce from our previous relationship. The question I face now is, is W really capable of ever giving me the type of relationship I want assuming she decides o give it a shot don the road. If having things “How they were” really was so great none of us would be on this forum.
TJT,
I started a new book this weekend, “The subtle art of not giving a F@$K”. It is worth a read and may help you with some of your wondering. It really puts into persepective what happiness is and how to achieve it. Long story short, do you really want to go back to how things were? All of the emotions we are feeling as the LBS, all of the pain and suffering, it is all a necasary part of the human body and mind to alert us to danger. Similar to physical pain it is signalling us that something is drastically wrong and we need to learn from this in order to protect ourselves. Think touching a hot stove. The physical pain teaches us not to do that again. In much the same way the emotional pain we are all going through is teaching us to change so we don’t get hurt again. Until very recently I had the same mindset as you, “once we were so happy”, “we were the couple everyone looked to for how the perfect marriage worked”. In all honestly I was lying to myself daily and should have drastically changed or pulled th plug long ago. I am learning at an alarming pace that I want nothing to do with my previous marriage. That doesn’t mean I don’t want to be with WAW any more, that is still all I truly want. But I want a divorce from our previous relationship. The question I face now is, is W really capable of ever giving me the type of relationship I want assuming she decides o give it a shot don the road. If having things “How they were” really was so great none of us would be on this forum.
I have this book but yet to read it. This is the right attitude and one I now have myself. I don't want to D but know it will happen as there is not a chance my W will ever change and I wouldn't want to R unless she changed, so I am purely just trying to move on now.
Crofton,
I would highly recommend making reading this book a high priority. I am only half way through so far but it is helping me a great deal. It is not your typical self help book but I think that is what makes it so great. It is just that hard truth about life and pain and suffering.
Well I ended up meeting a pretty cool women for coffee and dessert.....And our main point of conversation?? Each of our D situations and how we’ve handled....
This is perfect if you are divorced. If not, these "meetings" are dangerous to your real goal.
I believe the LBS that has the desire to bust the affair and bust the divorce should not date. If anyone here hasn't read "Not just friends" by Shirley glass, I highly recommend it.
You should have a few close friends of the same sex to discuss these issues with. Hopefully someone older and wise is part of your support group.
Things took a turn for the worse for me this morning. Got an email from FIL that was supposed to go to W but obviously he got the email address mixed up. I won't go into details but it has turned me upside down today and basically eliminated any hope of anything other then divorce.
RyanHun,
Go workout, go for a run, go do something to ease your mind off it. Also, if it is intel all the vets say keep it to yourself, don't share how you know what you know.
Stay strong.
RyanHun,
Go workout, go for a run, go do something to ease your mind off it. Also, if it is intel all the vets say keep it to yourself, don't share how you know what you know.
Stay strong.
Never reveal "what you know" or "how you know". Just that you "do know the truth".
This is how you respond to any info that goes against your intel:
"We both know that is a lie. Please tell me the truth"
I would love to be able to put this aside and keep it to myself but it may have legal implications that I need to reach out to a lawyer about. The items that were discussed are none of their business and were obtained without my consent. There is talk that involves my credit and financial details in the email.
Well it was a tough weekend. I have been sick so GAL and the gym and any other form of leaving the house pretty much came to a halt so I was at home with W and the kids most of the weekend. Yesterday was especially difficult. D9 is an emotional mess. She is crying frequently, doesn't want to go to dance, is wetting the bed. I have her booked for counseling this Thursday so hopefully that will help her out. The really tough part is W chalks it up to D9 going through pre teen changes and keeps saying it is normal. Now I'm no expert in this matter but I do not think it has anything to do with that at all. W is also crazy critical with all three kids. Constantly yelling at them and getting overly angry about the dumbest things. Sunday for example D4 wanted water in a water bottle. W freaked out because supposedly the water bottles " Are for school only and when we are at home we use a cup". D4 got upset and did what most 4 year olds would do, she refused to drink water out of a cup. Eventually I had to step in and advised W that I wasn't trying to over rule her parenting but D4 was thirsty, was making a healthy choice by having water and needed to stay hydrated regardless of what vessel that water came from.
Saturday night the neighbors called me over. I was under the impression that they just wanted to hang out but it turns out they wanted to discuss the situation. They had previously asked some questions when they noticed W was never around at the BBQ's we often have or any of the other events we often did so I had advised them that we were headed for divorce and left it at that with zero details. They really wanted to express concern for the kids and filled me in on a bit. Most of it goes along the same lines of W being over critical. They have heard on multiple mornings W yelling and screaming at the kids. I'm not sure yet how I am going to handle the conversation I obviously need to have with W yet on this matter but something needs to be said.
Another topic that came up was W's girlfriend. I have often thought that there was an affair going on but couldn't say for sure. W was spending a ton of time with one of her new younger girlfriends form work but I always figured it was W's attraction to the younger lifestyle with no real responsibilities, night after night of partying or just emotional support through this difficult time. This girl recently split with her long time boyfriend but again I thought nothing of it. The neighbors informed me though that within 5 minutes of the kids leaving for school in the morning this friend is showing up almost every day, staying for an hour and then leaving. Now who knows what any this actually means but could it be that I was right to suspect an affair but was thinking of it all wrong? Am I dealing with an OW situation instead of an OM? In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really make much difference with where I am at but something that is on my mind.
RyanHun,
Bed wetting is something that is occurring with both of my D5 and D8. My IC informed me that this is not uncommon for children going through D. My IC says that it a response to the stress and fear they are dealing with. Just be supportive as much as you can for your kids. Let them know you are not upset with them wetting the bed and be sure to let them know your MR problems have nothing to do with them.
Many therapist consider EA to be possible with the same sex. It may or may not have anything to do with your W sexual preference. If W and her GF are both going through troubled times they maybe leaning on each other for support and enabling. This could be an EA, could be more, or nothing more than friendship. It shouldn't change the course for you unless you want it to. As I have said in my posts it is like once you summit a peak and find a taller peak behind it. Just keep climbing, just keep moving forward.
At the end of the day who ever W is seeing doesn't really matter or change my direction. It's just one more piece of the 10,000 piece puzzle I'm trying to build with only 100 pices currently in hand.
Again I'm no expert put I know fairly certainly that the emotional breakdowns and bed wetting are all caused by the stress D9 is under. I maintain my great relationship with them and try and get them through this as best I can. I sleep well at night knowing I am such a good father and have such a great relationship with my kids.
Having one of those days where I just feel like throwing in the towel, getting this Alien out of my life and moving on. i really just don't know how much of this I can take.
I maintain my great relationship with them and try and get them through this as best I can. I sleep well at night knowing I am such a good father and have such a great relationship with my kids.
This is what I strive for and pray about every day. My kids are 19 and 21, but my IC told me I was wise to recognize that S and D can be very hard on adult children too. I have always been very close to them, and am confident I'll remain so. I sleep well at night too knowing that I am there for them. I wonder what H thinks about his R with his kids, but that's his dance, not mine.
Having one of those days where I just feel like throwing in the towel, getting this Alien out of my life and moving on. i really just don't know how much of this I can take.
I've felt like this all week! I'm early in this process, but as the end of our "Trial" 2 month separation comes near, I wonder if I can go on if he has come no closer to figuring out what he wants. I am just trying to focus on myself and MY future, and of course spending as much time as I can with my kids when time allows (they are away at college). I need to go through the process of healing myself and finding myself either married or not, so I am trying to not waste too much time dwelling on what I can't change. But this week was really, really tough for some reason.
Yesterday was especially difficult. D9 is an emotional mess. She is crying frequently, doesn't want to go to dance, is wetting the bed. I have her booked for counseling this Thursday so hopefully that will help her out. The really tough part is W chalks it up to D9 going through pre teen changes and keeps saying it is normal. Now I'm no expert in this matter but I do not think it has anything to do with that at all.
D12 is the same. Not bed wetting but getting upset easily, crying at the smallest things and has reoccurring tummy pain. At first, H used the same excuse "pre-teen angst". I think he was partly right - she is a pre-teen and they do get anxious. But it is not inconceivable that her parents splitting up may also have contributed. They live in a fantasy world where nothing they do impacts anyone. That way they don't have to feel the guilt of their actions. You are doing the right thing getting her counselling. Don't bad mouth your W in front of them and remind them (hard as it will be at times) that you both love them very much.
W is also crazy critical with all three kids. Constantly yelling at them and getting overly angry about the dumbest things ... Saturday night the neighbors called me over ... They really wanted to express concern for the kids and filled me in on a bit. Most of it goes along the same lines of W being over critical. They have heard on multiple mornings W yelling and screaming at the kids.
Yep - went through this too. Once, H D12 lost her PE kit and when he found out he drove her to the school at night, made her walk around the school looking for it (she couldn't find it) then drove her home (screaming at her the entire time - irresponsible, why do you lose everything, that kit cost £300 which I am taking out of your savings). We were all walking on egg shells. Not sure why this happens. I think it is because they feel trapped and they resent everything that makes them feel that way.
I'm not sure yet how I am going to handle the conversation I obviously need to have with W yet on this matter but something needs to be said.
"I understand that things are difficult between us at the moment but I would like it to not impact the children. I think we should work together on this. What can we do to make things easier for them?"
Am I dealing with an OW situation instead of an OM? In the grand scheme of things it doesn't really make much difference with where I am at but something that is on my mind.
Nope - doesn't matter. Net impact is the same.
Having one of those days where I just feel like throwing in the towel, getting this Alien out of my life and moving on. i really just don't know how much of this I can take.
I think there is something in the air. Today has been a total [censored] of a day and I too feel like throwing in the towel. I think life would be so much easier if I was willing to throw away 14 years of marriage on a whim.
Another night stuck in a tornado of emotions.
Came home last night after picking D9 and S7 up from after school care. Walked in the house and W was making dinner, something that has not happened in years. I got the kids to sit down at the table and start the nightly homework regime and W jumped in and helped out. It was such a nice time, it was a brief moment our family was back. I was happy, the kids were happy, there was laughter and joy. I took it all in and really just appreciated the moment. Homework finished we enjoyed dinner together and sat down to a quiet evening with the kids in front of the fireplace reading some books. Getting close to bed time W stands up asks me to move my car so she can get hers out and leaves. My evening of bliss came crashing down. What started as such an amazing evening quickly turned into the new normal, me putting the kids to bed, trying to answer their questions as to where Mom is, D9 crying at the slightest thing that doesn't go smoothly (last night was getting the toothpaste out of the tube).
After the kids were asleep I went downstairs made a cup of tea and tried to do some reading. I couldn't do anything. I just sat there on the couch all night feeling everything that is going on. I didn't think my heart could break anymore. I thought is was shattered as much as it could be and now I could start putting it back together on my own but it keeps breaking more and more. I have no idea who this person is in front of me that I now call my roommate. We really were an amazing family and it just baffles me to see where things are at now. I maintain a lot of inner strength, I know I made mistakes but I don't deserve this. I know I will only grow from this and be a much better person when I come out the other side. The hard part is the kids. I have three of the most amazing kids imaginable and they of all people really do not deserve any of this. W isn't just a WAW or WW or whatever label you want to stick on it. First ond foremost she is a WAM, (walk away mom). This Alien that has taken taken over has taken her from being the most amazing mother I have seen, someone who wanted nothing more then a family a short time ago and did everything she could to be the best mom possible to the point now that I can't really say anything positive about it. Seeing what this is already doing to my kids and how much it is changing them is tearing me apart inside.
One positive last night is that I really just took it all in and really felt it and this morning I feel like I have taken a big step further in detaching. It really just sunk in that the marriage and family that i once cherished so much are gone. I value my W and my family more then anything in this life and will do everything in my power to hopefully one day find a way to make it work but for now this is reality.
Two months in: Journalling
This weekend was a bit weird and this in home separation is not an ideal situation. W just doesn't grasp the reality of what D actually means it seems. Saturday was my usual day of daddy Uber driving the kids to various activities all morning while W works. D9 has been wearing a lot of costume earrings and appears to have had a reaction to them so her ears were a mess but she has lost her good earrings so on Friday I told her I would take her to get a pair after dance on Saturday. Sat afternoon heading to pick up D9 from her last dance class W calls, not sure why I answered but I did. W asks what I'm up to and I advised I was picking D9 up and taking her to find some new earrings. W gets very upset and keeps stating that she wants to be there as well. S7 and D4 were in the car listening to the conversation so I advised W that was fine we could go Sunday together. I should have just stuck to my plans and taken D9 shopping. While on the phone with W S7 mentions that I am taking them to see a movie later on (W has plans to go out Sat night). Again she gets upset because she wants to be there. I said she was welcome to join us. Me and the kids did our thing for the rest of the afternoon and then went up to our movie that evening. W showed up half way through the movie, we grabbed dinner afterwords and then put the kids to bed. W got herself ready and went to head out. Before leaving W made some comments about all the stuff I am doing with the kids and not including her in.
Not sure if I should have or not but I took this opportunity to fill her in a bit on the reality of the sitch. I advised her that there is no more "we" as she keeps referring to it. That there is my time with the kids and her time, I also reminded her that I am still waiting on her input for what that schedule might look like. I mentioned that she will not always be involved in everything anymore and neither will I, that is the nature of divorce. Neither one of us will be 100% involved in everything that is happening anymore. W brought up things like birthdays and Christmas. I advise that if she wanted us to participate in those events together then we could certainly discuss that and possibly make arrangements but activities like earring shopping do not constitute a major life event that we both need to make special arrangements to do together. W then kept bringing up this idea she has for "Nesting". I advised her that I do not feel like that is any way to live, that we can not afford a second property and for various reasons I do not want to be involved in a second property with her even if we could afford it. W was not happy but that is the truth.
W then brought up the fact that I'm "forcing her to sleep on the couch" to which i reminded her that she is free to sleep where she pleases, including the master bedroom on her side of the bed but I will also be there since I enjoy sleeping in my bed. A lot of nasty words came my way and I started to slip up and while I did still remain fairly level headed and calm some anger did creep in when I once again told her that I still didn't want anything to do with this separation but I accepted her decision and she was free to do what she felt was best for her. I mentioned that If she wanted to leave she was free to do so, (this is where some of the anger showed a bit) I asked her if she did want to leave so bad why was she still there? I reminded her that her parents house up the street was empty for three months and would be a perfect place for her to stay. She said she would stay at her parents, we could figure out the child sharing schedule and she stormed out and headed off to whatever plans she had for the night. Sunday morning at 11:00 am she walked in the front door. Was overly friendly and carried on about the day like we were a normal happy family and nothing was the matter. Last night she was back to sleeping on the couch.
Sounds like you handled the convo quite well Ryan, and drew some appropriate boundaries regarding splitting of time with the kids. Now stick to your guns! Consistency is important. She's trying to cake-eat and you are shutting it down. She will respect you for it, but she will never tell you that and will probably pitch a fit instead. But it's the right thing to do! Keep at it!
I've done a quick read of your situation RyanHun, and I feel for you. I've gotta say though, I especially appreciated your post about the new hair cut. Yes! So glad to see another person trying to take risks for yourself, be your best version and acknowledge that you're still learning and trying. It has all resonated with me as I'm also pretty new in this process and I'm just trying to get through in the healthiest way possible.
I'm not someone who wears makeup, but I've found myself intentionally wearing my power lipstick, putting on a bit of mascara, and dressing extra nice for work every day. It's a bit foreign, but I feel like I'm trying on different versions of myself to see who fits.
It really just sunk in that the marriage and family that i once cherished so much are gone. I value my W and my family more then anything in this life and will do everything in my power to hopefully one day find a way to make it work but for now this is reality.
This is my mantra as well - "this is my current reality". I've had to keep reminding myself that I have two wives. The first is who I shared the past 9+ years with who I loved dearly and who loved me back. The other is this current person in pain, who is acting out in insane ways.
Would appear the games have really begun now. Seems the more healthy boundaries I set and the more I try to organize things in a civil manner the more bizarre W's actions become. After the talk we had on Saturday night about splitting time with the kids and getting a set schedule in place W no showed with the kids last night. W was with all three at D9's dance class after school, dance ends at 5:30 and they get home at 5:45. As per W's request we were all set to take the kids to the mall last night so they could put a Christmas list together that we could divide up for all of the relatives and hopefully avoid the massive duplication of gifts. 6:45 rolls around and there is no sign of W and the kids so I call, no answer. 7:00 W calls, says she went to check on her parents place and was hanging out for a bit, "sounds good I will see you back at home for kids bedtime" was my response. I went out and did some solo GAL, dinner and a drink by myself and then went for a brief walk on the beach. I came home at 8:05 expecting the kids to be getting ready for bed only to find an empty house. 8:15 my phone rings and it is W with the kids calling to say goodnight. I had a good conversation with all three kids about their days and said goodnight, went to the gym and got myself organized for the morning and then read for an hour.
Before bed I called W and asked what was going on and why she had chosen to take the kids to which she didn't have much of an answer other then I told her that she should stay at her parents. I validated her and agreed that I had in fact suggested that but once again stressed that she cannot just take the kids and not communicate her plans. I stressed that a set schedule regarding time with the kids that we both mutually agree on needs to be drawn up. W was very flustered so I just ended the conversation and left it at that.
When I went up to get ready for bed I noticed that all of W's toiletries were not in the bathroom, it is only my assumption but it would appear that she packed up some stuff and went to her parents place with the clear intention of not coming home. I suspect that the "we were just checking on the place and decided to stay" was an outright lie. Not that it really matters because either way she just took the kids and left with zero communication but I just don't get the need to lie about it.
Good news, W appears to have received the message and has sent a proposed child sharing schedule that looks good and i will accept.
Bad news, receiving the child sharing schedule has triggered all the horrible feelings inside of me about the reality of the situation. Going to head out from work for a quick walk to try and gather my self.
For those of you with kids involved what does the child sharing schedule look like? W submitted what she thought is a good plan and I responded thanking her for putting something together and that I will review and let her know my thoughts.
My thoughts:
First her proposed schedule has a ton of back and forth, three days on three days off with alternating Wednesdays. This to me is way to much back and forth and offers no stability what so ever for the kids. My repsonse back is going to be that I think a one week on one week off schedule would be best for the kids.
Second the proposed schedule has me doing Fridays and Saturdays, doesn't exactly give me any time to socialize on the weekends.
Third the proposed schedule is 100% tailored around her work schedule. It is not my job to accommodate her work schedule on a daily basis. That is something she needs to address with her work if it doesn't work or make other arrangements. if she can't make adjustments at work or with a sitter i.e. the in laws I will happily pick up extra shifts with the kids when she is stuck but am not going to arrange my week around what suits her best.
With the ages of your kids I think 7 days on and 7 days off are best.
For what it's worth, I have that exact schedule. I have my kids Thurs-Sat nights and every other Wednesday. The things I like are:
1) I can plan GAL things for the same night every week without worry of whether the kids are with me. So I can do a game night every Monday. Or do trivia every Tuesday. Or whatever.
2) For kids living that close, a week is a long time to be apart. My kids often complain that they "miss mommy" even after only a couple of days. It isnt debilitating or anything, but I think it's good to not have such a long break.
3) While having them every Friday and Saturday night is a bit annoying for my social life, it was much more fun to have the kids. I get all of the ":non-school" nights to be out late or do special things with them. It also winds up with me spending more "awake" time with them than their mom because I get both weekend mornings.
4) It will also give you more contact with them for school and school-related topics. I think switching back and forth more frequently is better suited to keep both parents more "in the loop" for things going on at school or in their lives.
Of course....your social life on weekends [censored]. It's much harder to go out Friday/Saturday night....because even if you do, for a while it will feel like you are "wasting" your time to spend with the kids. You also dont get any "sleep-in"s.
Thanks for the input guys, there are certainly benefits to both situations. Currently her proposed schedule is me Fri, Sat, Tues, every second Wednesday. That is no doubt too much jumping around. Thursday to Sat with alternating Fridays I could live with. That jumping around for one night Tuesdays and Thursdays should be changed.
Bad news, receiving the child sharing schedule has triggered all the horrible feelings inside of me about the reality of the situation.
That's the worst feeling. I can't offer any advice that you haven't given me already. You know, GAL and whatnot. But you're not alone there. We'll both have to toughen up a bit so that we don't spin every time W asks us to sign a form or answer a D-related question.
We'll both have to toughen up a bit so that we don't spin every time W asks us to sign a form or answer a D-related question.
This is one are I really need to work on. On the all the days where not much happens I do awesome at detaching and being emotionally grounded and my best self. The days something official comes my way from W i tend to fall apart although I am getting much better, not totally coming apart and recovering a lot quicker then I was before. Most of that I attribute to having all of you guys on here to bounce ideas off.
Ryan,
I am on a 2-2-3 schedule. With young kids seeing both parents as frequently as possible is in their best interest. Since your group average age is higher than mine you might look into a 4-3-3-4 schedule or alternating week schedule.
Thanks for all the input. I do think your points about less time away from one parent are great and a 3-4 alternating pattern would be best as long as it is consecutive days for stability.
LOL. Nothing like getting all different responses. For the record I have 2-2-3 but my kids are older.
I think 2-2-3 (or 2-2-5-5) was what I wanted originally. But we decided on 3-3-4-4 instead for more consistency. I think it worked better for her and didn’t matter much to me, so I was ok with it. It means I got stuck with every friday and Saturday night....but I found that it hasn’t been that limiting in over 3 years of doing it.
Thanks for the input guys, there are certainly benefits to both situations. Currently her proposed schedule is me Fri, Sat, Tues, every second Wednesday. That is no doubt too much jumping around. Thursday to Sat with alternating Fridays I could live with. That jumping around for one night Tuesdays and Thursdays should be changed.
So 2-2-1-2-2-2-2-1?!
That’s a crazy number of handoffs in two weeks.
I’m embarrassed to admit how many times I had to count that to write it out.
I like the 2-2-3 because of the frequency for seeing my kids especially S3 since he is so young. Also since 2-2-3 alternates every week W and I get alternating weekends on/off.
Amoafwl,
That is what she has proposed and I agree 100%, that is way too many handoffs. I'm not sure what her options are but I think she needs to look into altering her work schedule or give up a day. I will respond to her email this evening and see what she comes back with.
Remember that it’s a negotiation and an opportunity for collaborating. So propose a couple options that might work for you. If she has conflicts, work around them. Find a solution that works for you, the kids and her together.
My response to W:
The alternating 3 and 4 day weeks I feel is a very good idea. That way we get even time with the kids and the shorter time frame makes for less time that they are separated from one parent. My one concern with the proposed schedule is the frequent handoffs Tuesdays and Thursdays. I am not sure what flexibility your work could offer but something more consistent i.e. myself Thurs to Sat and you Sun to Tues with alternating Wed would probably be more ideal and stable for the kids. Let me know your thoughts on that and once again I want to stress that if you do not really want to stay at your parents then you are welcome to remain in the house.
My response to W:
The alternating 3 and 4 day weeks I feel is a very good idea. That way we get even time with the kids and the shorter time frame makes for less time that they are separated from one parent. My one concern with the proposed schedule is the frequent handoffs Tuesdays and Thursdays. I am not sure what flexibility your work could offer but something more consistent i.e. myself Thurs to Sat and you Sun to Tues with alternating Wed would probably be more ideal and stable for the kids. Let me know your thoughts on that and once again I want to stress that if you do not really want to stay at your parents then you are welcome to remain in the house.
I don’t know if you sent this. I kinda hope not especially with that last line in there. I suck at this but here’s a framework I’d start with
W - thank you for sending this proposal. I’m glad we’re on the same page with regards to splitting the kids time evenly. That said, I’m worried about the impact of the frequency of switching houses (including a back and forth 3 days in a row every week) for the kids. I think much more standard agreements are 3-3-4-4 or 2-2-5-5 or just switching weeks. I would like to propose XXX or YYY. I think this consistency would work better for me and he kids. What are your thoughts?
- RyanHun
By the way....if you want to see a wizard at work, read some of the posts between Wonka and PigPen in his threads about negotiating some time for him with his dog.
So I have that last line in there because of comments she made about me throwing her out of the house. I am not throwing her out I simply suggested that since her parents house was empty and she wants space that she may want to stay there but it was spun around. Do you really think I should not include that? I honestly don't really care where she sleeps but I do not want anyone, especially later on if lawyers are involved thinking I threw her out of the house.
That line is more of a cover my butt legally if it comes up later on. Maybe it doesn't matter?
And no this hasn't been sent yet. Just posted a draft on here for all of you to pick apart first.
Then maybe the first step is figuring out what this schedule is FOR? Is this where the kids will be sleeping? Or who will be watching them at the family home while the other person is “off”...?
This is where the kids will be sleeping when they are with her and I am currently in the family home. After she kept on Saturday about wanting to leave and complaining that I was sleeping in the master bed and she was on the couch I had made the suggestion that if she wanted space or to sleep in a bed her parents house was currently sitting empty for just under three months. She left Sat, came back Sun then left again yesterday but this time took the kids without a word. Today she sent me the schedule and then I heard from various mutual friends that she was very angry that I had kicked her out of the house.
Maybe Im still confused then....
The kids will always be sleeping at the family home? Or when they are with her, they will be sleeping at her parent's in the interim?
Id say if it is just who is "home" on what nights or who is "responsible on what nights, then the wacky schedule isnt a huge deal. If it is a matter of the kids packing up and moving between homes, then I think you need more consistency.
Amoafwl,
I am working purely on assumptions and W's actions. I have asked her point blank what the plan is with no answer. Monday she packed up the kids things for the night and her things, told me a lie about what the plan was but kept the kids at her parents place with her. So my assumption is that the kids will be sleeping there with her. Without any response from her I think right now my best bet is to see what she does over the next couple of days. I suspect the kids will sleep with W at the in laws.
I don’t have kids so I can’t offer any specific advice there. But: in clinical research we use the acronym “ALCOA” to stress the importance of documentation.
A: attributable (clear that you wrote it)
L: legible
C: contemporaneous (written when it happened)
O: original (blue pen!)
A: accurate
I don’t think it would hurt to take some handwritten notes when something comes up that you think might be a problem later. Get one of those composition books that you can’t tear pages out of. Sign and date each entry. Cross out the rest of the line after your signature/date so nobody can say you added anything later. You can even take a photo after you write something (timestamps in photos are very hard to modify permanently).
Think of it as your lab notebook. That kind of evidence is spectacular in court. Just some paranoid advice from a paranoid nerd.
Getting used to the kids sad faces when they leave is not going to be easy. All they wanted to do tonight was hang out with their Dad. My heart just keeps ripping apart over and over.
Not much to report lately. Having W stay at IL's while they are away is actually really nice. I miss having the kids around every day but I am also really enjoying the free time. For some time I was always the one doing all the cooking, cleaning, running around the kids to activities, bed time routine with the kids, pretty much everything. Being free of all of that 50% of the time is allowing me to catch up on some much needed down time. Just being able to do what ever I want without keeping someone else in the loop or having to worry about the household schedule feels great. I come hoe from work the house is clean, I make dinner, clean up the mess from that, sit and read, go to the gym and just generally relax. Tonight the kids come back and we will start getting all the Christmas stuff out. Tomorrow I have a bucket list GAL activity planned, myself and 3 others from my mens group are going sturgeon fishing. Hopefully we get a nice big one.
So what kind of schedule did you agree on? It sounds like the kids will be moving back and forth. I think something consistent and fair is important.
Hope you could a big one!
Monday update:
For now the kids schedule is W: Sun, Mon, Thurs Me: Tues, Fri, Sat and we are alternating Wed. W agreed when I brought up the amount of switching and when I asked if she could change her work schedule she mentioned she had requested to change, given her recent track record of not actually doing anything when it comes to adulting I am skeptical of her statement but we will see. For the short term we will make this work.
Friday night was tough for me, took the kids up to swimming lessons (the pool W runs). Sitting in the hot tub I looked over into the office and W was all over a gentleman she works with. It could be me making more of it then what it is but it looked bad. W came over at one point to say hi to the kids, I said hello and asked how work was going, no response. Same thing when we left, I said bye and she just walked away. After getting the kids to bed I sat and just really felt all the horrible emotions but really looked at the person that was once my wife and the relationship as a whole and made a big step forward in detaching. Still a long way to go but I'm getting there.
Saturday was an amazing day. 8-2pm was out on the river hanging out with friends fishing and we had an awesome time together. I landed the last fish of the day and it was a monster, measured in at 96". My arms are still killing me but the sense of achievement landing such a big fish is indescribable. Saturday night I went out to a craft beer/whiskey festival and then headed off to bed.
When I woke up Sunday I had a text from W. As per her multiple request we were going to hang out Sunday and decorate the house for Christmas together with the kids. The text in the morning however mentioned all kinds of plans that had come up for the kids. I simply responded OK, after all it was W's day with the kids and it looked like they had a full day with their friends. I spent all day doing housework and putting up the outside lights. At 4pm I get a messaage form W.
W: Are we still decorating?
Me: If you would like.
W: I thought that was the plan. ( I'm thinking it was the plan and the kids were looking forward to it but you made other plans)
Me: I will make dinner and you can bring the kids by and we can get a start on decorating.
W: The concert the kids are at goes till 5 then we will come by:
Me: Sounds good.
6:30 rolls around dinner is done and W finally shows up. We enjoyed dinner and put up a few things but it was now close to bedtime for the kids so not much got done. W asked me to put the kids down at the house so that's what I did. Came downstairs and she was heading out the door. I wished her a friendly goodbye and enjoyed my evening. This morning I got them off to school and then dropped D4 at the in laws with W. W asked me to keep the kids tonight as well so I said sure. W did not look good, I asked how she was and she said not good and exhausted. I know I shouldn't be reading into this but it seems like the extra responsibility she has now is taking it's toll. Reality is not what W expected. Her leaving and us splitting time with the kids has decreased my workload and increased hers significantly. Whatever the reason for her wanting me to keep the kids I'm fine with it, she can leave them with me 7 days a week if she likes.
Last night and this morning I really realized how much Friday night helped me move further towards detaching. Seeing W fora couple hours yesterday and then again this morning really didn't phase me. The intense emotions I was always getting when I see her were now much less. They were still there and I have a long ways to go but there was noticeable improvement.
For now the kids schedule is W: Sun, Mon, Thurs Me: Tues, Fri, Sat and we are alternating Wed....For the short term we will make this work.
It isnt you and W I am worried about. It's the kids.
I know the my kids are always a bit of....well.....a bit difficult on change-over days. Especially with school, its a big adjustment for them going to a new set of rules and expectations. I cant imagine putting them through that 3 or 4 times in a week. That means that they are changing houses more often than they are back in the same house. I feel like there is at least SOME adjustment period needed when switching houses. How will they ever feel like they arent just living out of a suitcase? How can they make each place their home on such short stays??
W asked me to keep the kids tonight as well so I said sure. Whatever the reason for her wanting me to keep the kids I'm fine with it, she can leave them with me 7 days a week if she likes.
On the one hand, I get it. I want to spend as much time with my kids as I can. But on the other hand....theres something to be said for saying 'no'. The whole point of the schedule is two have the kids in an established routine and to give you and W a sense or 'normal'. It's been ONE WEEK and shes already given you two of her days. In the long term, how are you going to make consistent GAL plans? I feel like you are setting yourself down a bad precedent. To me, it comes across as you trying to appease WW vs. thinking about what might be best for you or the kids. If you are always available on a moment's notice....it must mean you arent doing much but sitting around in case WW needs something.
Amoafwl,
I am also very worried about the switching and the effect it has on the kids but what can I do about it at this point? W's work schedule is all over the map and reality is she needs to change it or just leave the kids with me full time. This is one area where I am completely lost because I want whats best for the kids even if that means sacrificing myself.
Journaling/Venting,
Not that I really needed a reminder about how un-detached I am but the universe decided to throw one my way regardless and it seems to be right on typical WAW script. The social media lame quotes. This really shouldn't impact me but it did and instead of reacting i'm here venting so I suppose that is a plus. All these lame posts about growth and living your best life. Old me would just love to ask W how is abandoning your family growth, how is prioritizing drinking with your 23 year old girl friends every night growth? How is avoiding all adult decisions about life living your best life? Ugh, makes me want to vomit. Anyways now that is off my chest back to finding calm, collected me.
Hey Ryan,
Thanks for chiming in on my sitch. And thank you for using my story to provide you inspiration as you navigate through your journey. One thing I want to mention to you is that I did not start DBing until nearly 7 months after BD. For 7 months I cried, she "supported" me while I broke down, she "reassured" me that nothing was happening, but not once did she want to "fix the M". She angrily rejected MC. (In hindsight, it made perfect sense and I do not blame her for her choice).
Then came the period after we celebrated our 10th first contact anniversary. She said that this summer I need to "go wild"...whatever that meant. The next day I came home for lunch and she was there. While we were talking, she uttered the words that stung me..."We're not romantic anymore" (again, now I see why and it makes sense). The entire summer was W transforming into WW. Long phone calls and secret text messages. Closed door phone sex sessions. Taking D4 to meet OM. Taking OM to her uncle for "approval". Rewriting history. All the while, nudging me to cater to her (I did not know anything about NGS then) by making and bringing her coffee, cleaning her car, making her meals, and so on. It wasn't until I met with her uncle and having HIM tell me that W took OM to meet him that I started the process of letting go (I called her very angry). When I calmed down, I called her again and told her that I am on the same page as her and agreed that the "romance is over". The next day, I googled "My wife won't stop her affair" and the third result lead me to
this post (hyperlinked). I read through the thread and decided to create a profile here and post my story.
I do not know if things would have been better had I started the DB process sooner. I knew I spent 7 months doing the "wrong" things before I embarked on this journey. It took me 4 hard months of posting, GAL, beginning the detaching process, getting 2x4's from the folks here as well as my MC, and a ton of pain to get to this point. Some people take longer to get to this point, others do not.
Everyone who has been DBing as well as those who have gone through their own process when they S or D have said that it does get better. It takes a long time, but it does get better. I have started seeing signs. By no means is this over, but I know that things like this take a lot of time. It's
only been four months, but I am a much better man. I still have work to do in getting, as Sandi would say, "get my b@lls back", but I am making my way there a little bit at a time.
I am seeing you shift upwards as well. You were very fortunate to start the process so quickly after BD.
I look forward to see where you are in the next few months. Hang in there.
Thanks Pain,
I did start the process early after BD but W had fired warning shots almost a year earlier. After those warning shots I did a lot of pursing and all the wrong things. Perhaps her mind was made up then, I don't know. I look back and think she was making her exit strategy and instead of giving her space I pursued, did some begging and pleading and sealed my own fate. Hindsight is 20/20, nothing I can do about it now other then detaching, giving her space, GAL and fixing what I can with myself and looking forward.
Rough morning today:
D9 is falling apart and it is tearing me to pieces. She has been complaining of tummy aches for the last two days so we let her stay home but she seemed to be fine. This morning everything seemed good and she said she was feeling better. I got her all set to go to school but when it came time to leave she broke down crying and complained about her tummy again. She was just a big emotional mess and as much as I tried to calm her and support her she just wouldn't have it. W called to wish them a good day at school and when I mentioned the issues she just brushed it off as nothing. I don't know how to help my little princess out.
Hang in there Ryan. This is hard on everyone involved. Be there for her. Support her. (Her being your D.) Be her rock.
I don't know how to help my little princess out.
I'm not in any way qualified to give advice on children, so know that ahead of time. Not a psychologist and not a mum. But what if you were to create a conversation with her about how it's okay to feel yucky about things sometimes. That proves that she's a very caring individual and you admire that about her. So, validate her feeling.
And then say you'd like to help her feel better, but you need some help. What does she think might help when she feels yucky? You could come up with a mantra with her she might repeat, "All of my family members love me very much" (I'm unsure on this one - perhaps too emotional for her) or, "I am going to be okay" or "Today I will do something nice for someone". Or, maybe she responds well to deep breathing and you can practice together. Or maybe she can carry a small craft around with her and when she gets nervous she can give herself a little break to work on the craft or read a book. You sound like a great dad who does this kind of thing.
Thanks Steve. Seeing what this is doing to the kids is the hardest part.
Yail, thank you for all of the great advice. I am really trying to work hard on teaching D9 that it is ok and healthy to feel things, to analyze those feelings, to share some of those feelings if she desires. I set up my old cell phone for her so she can call anybody she wants, aunts, family friends, relatives etc. She takes a lot after her mom and shuts down when it comes to feelings and emotions and refuses to talk. All I can do is keep on trying to support her and just be there. We have some special Christmas related activities this weekend and hopefully that will help her out a bit. Unfortunately child psychologists are in high demand here but I do have an appointment for Dec 11.
Just wanted to share some of my thoughts on "expectations" based on some of the things I have read on here the last couple of days. I have a ways to go myself but I think this is one area where I am doing pretty well with letting go.
We have all seen the veterans mentioning time and time again to have no expectations (thanks guys for your patience with us newcomers). When letting go of expectations that really means all expectations, the positive and the negative. When a little glimmer of hope comes our way from our spouse we develop thoughts and expectations about what that must mean. These are the common things we read on here in a lot of posts. It's the negative ones that I think often are overlooked, expectations when nothing has happened like "Because H/W has acted like Y lately I expect I will be D in the near future and its done". Or the expectations that the story is over because H or W is moving out after a lengthy IHS.
I think the key to all of this is to really master having zero expectations either way. To 100% commit to the fact that we are on this journey and to simply live our lives one day at a time in a manner that leaves us feeling good at the end of the day. None of us have the slightest clue what tomorrow is going to look like, good or bad, so any kind of expectations good or bad serve no purpose.
Just wanted to share some of my thoughts on "expectations" based on some of the things I have read on here the last couple of days. I have a ways to go myself but I think this is one area where I am doing pretty well with letting go.
We have all seen the veterans mentioning time and time again to have no expectations (thanks guys for your patience with us newcomers). When letting go of expectations that really means all expectations, the positive and the negative. When a little glimmer of hope comes our way from our spouse we develop thoughts and expectations about what that must mean. These are the common things we read on here in a lot of posts. It's the negative ones that I think often are overlooked, expectations when nothing has happened like "Because H/W has acted like Y lately I expect I will be D in the near future and its done". Or the expectations that the story is over because H or W is moving out after a lengthy IHS.
I think the key to all of this is to really master having zero expectations either way. To 100% commit to the fact that we are on this journey and to simply live our lives one day at a time in a manner that leaves us feeling good at the end of the day. None of us have the slightest clue what tomorrow is going to look like, good or bad, so any kind of expectations good or bad serve no purpose.
Well stated.
A lot of what we spend time on here is both talking poster's down from the heights. "She said she'd go to MC, we are Ring!" And talking them off the ledge. "Well, she said she not open to Ring at all. So I guess it is over."
While expectations are part of the problem, the biggest problem is EVER taking the WAS at their word. We need to have a sticky thread with the title: "Believe nothing they say, and only half of what they do."
I wrote a little about this in my own thread last week. Where I point how the WAS believes nothing the LBS says ("I promise to change!"). Yet the LBS hangs on every word that crosses the WAS's lips. I honestly believe that if more posters could stop putting any stock into anything the WAS says the better off they'd be.
We have all seen the veterans mentioning time and time again to have no expectations ... It's the negative ones that I think often are overlooked, expectations when nothing has happened like "Because H/W has acted like Y lately I expect I will be D in the near future and its done". Or the expectations that the story is over because H or W is moving out after a lengthy IHS.
I think the key to all of this is to really master having zero expectations either way. To 100% commit to the fact that we are on this journey and to simply live our lives one day at a time in a manner that leaves us feeling good at the end of the day. None of us have the slightest clue what tomorrow is going to look like, good or bad, so any kind of expectations good or bad serve no purpose.
I'm guilty of this. It's a tough balance in not being in denial and not giving negative expectations too much weight. I feel like sometimes to get to our next level of detachment we have to fake-it-til-we-make-it. ACT detached until you really are. ACT like you don't have any expectations until you really don't.
And to a certain degree, if we don't have SOME kind of expectations, how do we truly prepare for all situations? If we expect to be D we can do our due diligence in protecting ourselves. If we just leave it up to fate and focus only on ourselves and GAL, can we really prepare for each situation as it comes? Or are we always just reacting on the fly? I'm someone who does better with a bit of mental preparedness, so do I just expect the worst, but give it up to the universe to determine the actual path?
I read all your posts, and Steve as usual is on point. Tough love but its true we cant believe what they say. Theyre confused themselves so what does it matter what they say. Validate and dont think of it after the fact... easier said than done. My sitch is probably a year ahead of yours.
As to expectations man they suck. Its almost impossible not to have any but thats the goal. Expect her to be back and forth and all over the place. She doesnt know what shes doing and is probably making a lot of mistakes. She will project on you and be unable to deal with life day to day and the hard emotions... in my sitch I thought we were over 2 or 3x then she came back, I thought we were going to be together after we slept together and spent a couple weekends together then she can't handle it. I saw on one of your posts AnotherStander commented about a friend whos wife left and he was like ok theres the door and went dark. That is probably some of the best advice Ive seen. I continue to make mistakes. But thats what Im shooting for currently. I have MC Monday and will outline why she needs IC and that she needs to change her communication and not hold all her trauma in to get healthy because we havent had real progress because she is all over the place... if she wants to be with me and then Im done.
I hope you can learn from us and dont repeat the same ones.
My advice is give all your love to yourself and your kids. GAL spend $ on experiences like you did with fishing, and do stuff with the kids that everyone enjoys. Always have something to look forward to - a trip planned, dinner with a friend etc. My schedule is tough so I have to do GAL at lunch time a lot. But Ive been meeting friends for lunch weekly, working out, traveling when I can.
If W misses out be like umm yea you're going out every night doing who knows what don't accuse but it is her choice to not be in the family. I would not include her in the holidays unless she shows interest in you and working on the marriage. If she gets upset set the boundary Im sorry you have chosen to live at ILS you can set up your holiday there.
Show her what she is missing. It seems you do a lot in regard to taking care of the house, cooking etc. Plus work, correct? I assume you make at least as much $ or more than her. She should have to do half the work to get the benefits of everything you put in.
My W and I have been in therapy so I thought we were piecing and I made a bunch of mistakes, backslid and now may be done again. Do not do that. I should probably take my own advice
. Best of luck
And to a certain degree, if we don't have SOME kind of expectations, how do we truly prepare for all situations? If we expect to be D we can do our due diligence in protecting ourselves. If we just leave it up to fate and focus only on ourselves and GAL, can we really prepare for each situation as it comes? Or are we always just reacting on the fly? I'm someone who does better with a bit of mental preparedness, so do I just expect the worst, but give it up to the universe to determine the actual path?
Yail,
I found until I could really let go of expectations that me being prepared was actually causing more damage. I was setting myself up for failure. I think most of us would agree that you can't really live life on the fly especially when it comes to major decisions. I still prepare for things but put in extra effort now to prepare for multiple outcomes. I don't really expect D but I am prepared for it. I don't expect R but am prepared for it. I don't expect W to move out but am prepared for it just as I am prepared for her to stay in the house.
D9 is falling apart and it is tearing me to pieces. She has been complaining of tummy aches for the last two days so we let her stay home but she seemed to be fine.
Hi Ryan - D12 has had reoccurring tummy pains since BD. It comes and goes. Google reoccurring tummy pains in children. It happens in about 1 in 10 and, whilst the pain they are feeling is real, it is potentially psycho-symptomatic in that it is a physical manifestation of anxiety and/or depression.
If it gets worse it might be worth considering getting a therapist for her. In the meantime, keep an eye out and keep her distracted and be as patient as you can with her. We were also been advised not to let D12 miss any school as it will mean that they will then get anxious about what they missed, and it becomes a bit of a vicious cycle.
The other thing she does is get upset at the littlest thing. Not being able to find the right socks in the morning or the hair ribbon she just has to have that day.
What we've found is that these aren't necessarily triggered by anything to do with the S (to be honest, the S is like a silent elephant in the room) but random little things. It is like she is overwhelmed by what is going on, and trying to keep it all together for us, that she loses it over everything else.
Anyway, distract, pay attention, give her lots of your time and affection and let her know you are there if she wants to talk (but don't force her to talk). Remind her as often as possible that she is loved by both of you. Be excited about the times she spends with you and the times she spends with her mom. Let her know that you are ok with it all.
Lastly, my H tried to palm it off as "hormones" and my over-reacting. He has accepted more recently that there is a problem but thinks it might be that she is being bullied at school - he brought up stories of bullying going on at ANOTHER SCHOOL this morning. Anything but face the fact that D12's anxiety might have something to do with her parents splitting up.
Thanks FS,
I'm glad you chimed in as I remembered reading about your daughter in your sitch. I know I am an amazing Dad and will do everything I can to try and help her out. I'm trying to keep her as busy as possible and make home life enjoyable. I don't know if the time of year helps or makes it worse but we are continuing on as normal as possible with decorating the house etc.
W is much like your H and trying to find anything possible other then the family sitch to pin all these symptoms on. Hormones, IBS, wheat intolerance have all been brought up. The fact that she had zero issues until the family started falling apart doesn't seem to phase W.
Christmas is a magical time to be a 9 year old girl ... plan something to do everyday you are with her ... go watch the Christmas lights being turned on, visit Santa's grotto, or even just go and look at the Christmas displays at the local shopping mall. There is so much out there. She needs something to look forward to everyday. Not sure if you're into hobby stuff, but my kids (even D12) love to make things so we go down to the local hobby store and go and get stuff for making Christmas cards. There are a lot of ideas online for Christmas decorations and they like to make with your kids. I will even go so far as to get my kids excited about picking out a Christmas present for their dad ... because they need to know that I am OK with him leaving so they can be free to enjoy Christmas without worrying about whether I am in pain or not.
FS,
I'm going to try and make it the most magical Christmas I possibly can. Just a little worried about the added emotion this time of year for D9 but I will do my best. I'm pretty much a big kid so playing, hobbies, having fun with the kids is not an issue and part of the reason we are so close.
Monday Update; Life goes on
I am really settling into the new norm nicely. Friday night took the kids to swimming lessons and dinner afterwords, Sat morning was running the kids around to all their activities. Then me and S7 finished up the Christmas lights and we all headed to a movie. Sunday W didn't show until noon to pick them up so I enjoyed some extra time with them and made brunch. Took advantage of my free Sunday afternoon and got a hair cut, did some clothes shopping, hit the gym, went and visited a friend, and did some work on one of my hobbies. All in all I am making the most of my time with the kids and without and am really just enjoying each and every day. One thing that has had a huge impact is shifting my mindset from "have to" to "get to". Everything that I used to label as good or bad I now look at as more of an opportunity. I was terrified of being a part time dad, now I see it as an opportunity. I get to take care of myself, I get to see friends more, i get to go shopping without chasing 3 kids around the mall. On the days I'm with them I get to make the most of our time, I get to read to them at bed time, I get to take them to the movies and other fun activities. This new mindset applies to all aspects of my life now and is having an immediate and large impact. I have a long way to go especially in the detachment area but I am comfortable accepting the sitch and comfortable with the idea that it is out of my hands and all I can do is move on.
Well more interesting things coming my way from W, mostly financial related all right in line with what appears to be textbook WAW behavior. My reaction is very different these days and I owe everyone on here a big thanks, thank you all for sharing your stories. WAS's seem to be very predictable in their actions, it is almost like they have all read a textbook on this and now I can almost predict what W is going to do. I simply just take what comes my way now and laugh it off. One thing that is very apparent is she has not looked into any of the legalities surrounding S or D here and with these latest moves seems to think she is escaping some financial responsibility.
Ryan, yes WASs are usually have a very rosy outlook on the D process, how easy it is, and what they can get out of it. This is why we often say that the reality sometimes will sober them up. Lot of WASs have tried to R after they or the LBS filed for D. I often say that when my WW found out I had contacted a lawyer she was stunned. I think it was because she realized that I was not going to fight the D if she were to move it forward. And that it meant she'd need a L. And that it was going to take a longtime and be drawn out.
I am never for making it easy on a WAS. Even in D. I say make it has hard on them as possible. So many LBS are worried about cost. I know all of our financial sitches are different but I was willing to spend as much as it took to make it as painful for her as possible. That was my plan. Everyone has to decide for themselves.
Ryan,
Whatever the circumstances (WW, WAS, MLC) it does seem like a common theme is varying levels of escapism. They all run off to a fantasy they have created, while most LBS are left holding pieces of reality and what they thought they had (often a fantasy). The sooner we (LBS) face reality and discard the fantasy the better off we recover and grow. It appears that from what I have read here the WW/WAS/MLC sometimes get slapped in the face with a good hard dose of reality and hopefully, but not always recovers from the escapism fantasy. They also sometimes never abandon the a escapism fantasy and take their problems to the next part of their life, relationships, etc.
Your W might wake up a bit as things get serious. I know for the 2 months my W was in the house post BD she started to really understand the realities of S and D. Mostly, because I shoved reality in her face so it could wake her up a bit. She would get a bit fearful at times and want to know what I was doing, and if I was talking to a lawyer. Once she figured that I didn't want to see the ship sink in flames she chose to go back to fantasy land. Since we don't talk beyond kids and finances I don't know what going on with her, but from what I can see it appears to be more of the same. Ignoring reality and seeking escapism.
Steve,
The funny thing is she doesn't understand in the slightest just how difficult she is making it for herself. She avoids any communication with me regarding the actual S and just does what she thinks is best for her. Not sure what her thought is behind some of this stuff but it looks like she is just trying to, and thinks she actually is escaping financial responsibility and dumping it on me. Where I live 50/50 is automatically assumed from the date of S until legal D is settled and that includes all finances. She doesn't seem to realize that she can run all she wants, I will keep looking after the expenses on my own and she will get a large invoice for her half if and when D comes up. I wanted to keep things as smooth as possible but i need to protect myself and am willing to pay a lawyer what it takes to do that. For now all I need to do is keep the records up to date.
Steve,
The funny thing is she doesn't understand in the slightest just how difficult she is making it for herself. She avoids any communication with me regarding the actual S and just does what she thinks is best for her. Not sure what her thought is behind some of this stuff but it looks like she is just trying to, and thinks she actually is escaping financial responsibility and dumping it on me. Where I live 50/50 is automatically assumed from the date of S until legal D is settled and that includes all finances. She doesn't seem to realize that she can run all she wants, I will keep looking after the expenses on my own and she will get a large invoice for her half if and when D comes up. I wanted to keep things as smooth as possible but i need to protect myself and am willing to pay a lawyer what it takes to do that. For now all I need to do is keep the records up to date.
Exactly. It is the wayward/walkaway fog. Reality eventually smacks them in the face. The sooner the better. Which is why I started walking back her "easy D" promises right away. She was trying to take the easy way out: "I don't want any of "your" money." "You keep the house and live in it with D14." "We can file for D online for $250." After I got my feet back under me I told her: "You will get half of everything. Including debt, retirement accounts, etc." "We will sell the house and split the equity 50/50." "I talked to a lawyer. I am not comfortable filing for D online so when I file (notice I am taking control) I will file through my lawyer."
3 fantasies bubbles with images of unicorns in rainbows on them, and I burst all three. Stuff just got real. Doesn't work with every WW, but with mine it sobered her up fairly quickly.
It's good to hear that Steve as that is exactly what has been happening, "I don't want child support" etc. Pretty much the same list as your case. SO far I think my stance has been positive and similar to yours. I have outlined what she will get including child support, half of all goods, half of the house, retirement funds and the debt. Also the kids, she has repeatedly mentioned that she wants me around whenever they want to see me, has stated "you are such a wonderful dad and they always just want to be with you. I don't ever want to take that away from them". I really don't want to have the kids in the middle of this but the reality is that they are. And my response to W was "I appreciate that you don't want to take the kids away from me but reality is you have. Best case scenario you have taken the kids away from their dad 50% of the time". She really expects life to go on as normal just without our marriage. I am really doubling down on the tough love with her, I have made it very clear that I don't want this but accept her decision. I have suggested again this morning that she find somewhere to live. She asked why she should be the one to leave and I simply said because that is what you expressed you want. It's time for her to make the tough decisions and back up what she has said about wanting out.
Quick update:
A while ago I mentioned that I was looking into counseling for D9, I mentioned to W that the stomach problems and crazy emotional swings were a direct result of the situation at home and not one of the 10 explanations W had tried to pin them on. A few days later I received an email from W that she was looking into finding someone for us to take D9 to. At least for once W was doing something positive for a change. So tomorrow is the beginning of the process and W and myself are meeting with the psychologist. I don't think W realized that we have to meet with them alone first and I'm not sure how it will go. I'm trying not to mind read but given recent events and W's complete lack of any plan I am thinking she is expecting a quick "this is what you say with D9 and the problem will go away". I discussed this a bit with my IC last week and she said given W's lack of a plan and lack of reality that the child psychologist is likely to say they can't help.
Well, Just got home from the session with the child psychologist. W went in with a note book full of questions about the kids and that was all she wanted to focus on. Again my assumption is she wanted a quick and easy answer. "Thell the kids this and everything will be fine". The psychologist had other plans, much along the lines of what I was expecting and asked very specific questions about the sitch. I was kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place because I didn't really want to answer but they needed to know. It was much of the same from W, she doesn't want to be with me was her standard answer. Still not really any details as to why. I answered the questions honestly, re affirmed many times that I don't want a divorce but accept her decision. I basically spent the next hour answering questions and listening to W deny things. Even recent events, she was in complete denial. At one point I couldn't take it anymore and actually dug out W's email and read exactly what she wrote and she still denied it. Then we got on the topic of what the plan is. W stuck to her story, we will split everything 50/50 including the kids. He is a wonderful person and an amazing father and will always see them and I would never take them away from him. These are all great things to hear but lets look at reality. Best case 50 percent of the time they are being taken away from me. Realistically with now facing rent in a market with almost 0% rental vacancy and huge rent costs plus child support 3/4 of my pay check is gone. I pretty much have to move out to the distant suburbs. The kids go to private school on the bus, they need to be picked up at a consistent location and now I don't live close. Now I am basically down to a Friday night to Sunday afternoon dad. Guess what that increases child support payments. W just kept dismissing it all and saying that won't happen. She is just completely out of touch with what divorced life with three kids where we live will actually look like. Not much I can do about that, I fully accept my new reality and as bleak as that looks will make the most of it. I always find a way to press on despite what I face and this will be no different. Tough morning but the day goes on. Tonight I get the kids and will have them to keep me busy.
Still have a ways to go but the latest round of lies, manipulation and essentially a form of kid napping certainly are making the detaching process easier. I'm struggling these days to find anything in the person in front of me that I currently find attractive. I am also realizing that civil co parenting is likely not going to be an option based on some recent events. I really hope that turns around in the near future but for now it looks like we will not be able to work through kids activities jointly. Also not looking forward to the end of this week as the in laws are coming back next Tuesday and W plans on returning home this weekend but there isn't much I can do about it except put a smile on my face and continue with GAL and detaching.
Things seem to be ramping up significantly from W lately and this morning is no different. W tried calling this morning and I didn't answer (was busy making meatballs for a Christmas potluck at work). A few minutes ago I received an email, " I need to know what the child sharing schedule will look like in an hour, work is doing the winter/spring signing". I have yet to respond by my answer will be that I need time to review and think things over and will get back to her.
There are 5 people involved here, still no plan in place regarding living arrangements, nothing re3solved with financial arrangements. I have work obligations, the kids all have their activities, how does someone expect to finalize a schedule with an hours notice. Up until this email there has been no talk of the schedule past Dec 17th.
Wow, she gave you a whole hour? Why are you not jumping at the chance to meet her deadline? I tell you, sometimes it's just mind-boggling what comes out of their mouths (or appears on your phone in a texting window). Good job in not rushing out a reply. Just ignore it and let her stew. Reply back in a couple hours that you'll think about it and get back with her. Your life doesn't revolve around her demands anymore, time to let her see that.
Reply back in a couple hours that you'll think about it and get back with her.
This ^^^^
Ryan,
It has been a while. Are you still hanging in there bud? Do you have any updates?
Been a while since I have posted. I hope everyone had an amazing holiday season and I wish everyone all the best in 2019. I have really turned a corner in the last couple of weeks and I am feeling amazing. I hosted and attended several dinners with family, friends and neighbors over Christmas, shared a lot of laughs and really enjoyed every minute. Me and the kids had a blast and enjoyed a lot of great quality time together. All the little moments in life really seem to have extra meaning these days and I feel a real sense of calm and inner peace.
Not much to report on as far as W goes and I am at the point now where I don't even feel the need to elaborate much. I will say that I view her actions from a very clear perspective now and some of her behavior over the last couple of weeks has really driven home detachment for me. I settled in nicely to life alone when she was living at the in laws for a month and I had a lot of time to analyze the situation internally. I began to see things for what they were over the last year and realized that I was hanging onto a very unhealthy relationship. When W returned to the house after the in laws vacation was over several of the realizations I had come to were quickly confirmed. One example I will provide, I hosted my parents for dinner between Christmas and New Years so they could spend some more time with the kids before they returned home. W was at work for the day but as a friendly gesture I invited her to join us. I spent all day busting my rear end cooking an amazing meal and making sure the house was clean. W walked in late from work just as dinner was about ready, we sat down to eat and all I heard about was how the mashed potatoes had too much milk in them, brown gravy does not go with prime rib and she won't eat it with out au jus and I was out of HP sauce so she really couldn't eat it. It was one complaint after another and she dumped most of her meal in the garbage. Me, the kids and my parents enjoyed our time together but I was left embarrassed and my parents disgusted. That really was the nail in the coffin for me.
I still hold some hope that one day M 2.0 could happen but as each day passes the list of things that would have to be acknowledged and worked on only grows.
Here we are 4 months since BD. I am very surprised at how well things are going for me personally and I owe every single person on here a huge thank you for that. Reading through everyone's stories and the advice I received on my own sitch has really pulled me through the darkest time of my life remarkably fast. I continue to improve myself, especially in the area of NGS, working out etc. GAL I think was the single most important part of the process. I have made a ton of new friends and now enjoy a schedule full of fun activities throughout the week. GAL has also brought about a new appreciation for the city I live in and all that it has to offer. From restaurants and bars, to events and activities I can't believe I was missing out on this stuff for so long.
As far as my sitch goes:
W continues to plug away like life will go on as usual (with the exception of a relationship) with no plan in place and no desire to actually put in the effort to sort things out. Every day that passes and the more people I meet the closer I get to wanting D myself. I still have a ways to go with that and whatever way it goes I will be fine. Separation and pressing forward with dividing assets, especially the house, I am trying to push forward with though. At this point I really just want my own space to call home that I can decorate to my liking and do whatever I please in without having to worry about someone else. My alone time with a glass of wine, dim lights and music on has become one of my favorite times. The in house separation is also causing a lot of confusion for the kids and I feel is only prolonging the inevitable for them. My thoughts are at least if we were physically separated the kids could beging to adjust to the new normal of two houses. Meeting tomorrow with the bank to discuss a mortgage and then with the lawyers Friday to see what my options are for getting things moving forwards. A year and a half of being ignored and slowly watching the person I loved so much pull away from me plus 4 months since BD I am ready to move on with my life with or without her.
Journaling:
Lately I find myself just stuck. I want to proceed with separation, get financials and the house sorted out etc. The more reasonable I am and the more I try and offer W to move things along it seems the less inclined she is to actually proceed. I know I shouldn't but i can't help but think about the why? For someone that remains 100% committed to getting a divorce what is holding her back? Why will she not actually proceed with S in any way? I find myself constantly flip flopping back and forth these days wondering if recon would even be an option at this point. If W was to come to me tomorrow and beg for me to stay I'm not sure if I would even consider it. My rediscovered self worth and realization of how I should be treated by someone that supposedly loves me have really opened my eyes. I am really enjoying bachelor life style, going out with friends on the days I don't have the kids and not having to answer to anyone, sitting on the couch with a glass of wine, music and a book for hours in the evening and not having to worry about a thing, the thought of buying a new place and decorating to my liking all are very exciting to me. I really just want to get things moving forward. I'm 33 years old and should be having the time of my life.
For someone that remains 100% committed to getting a divorce what is holding her back? Why will she not actually proceed with S in any way?
It is more than likely because you have taken the pressure off her so she has slowed the process down.
If W was to come to me tomorrow and beg for me to stay I'm not sure if I would even consider it.
I think you are BSing yourself but why even worry about that right now.
My rediscovered self worth and realization of how I should be treated by someone that supposedly loves me have really opened my eyes. I am really enjoying bachelor life style, going out with friends on the days I don't have the kids and not having to answer to anyone, sitting on the couch with a glass of wine, music and a book for hours in the evening and not having to worry about a thing, the thought of buying a new place and decorating to my liking all are very exciting to me. I really just want to get things moving forward. I'm 33 years old and should be having the time of my life.
There are a lot of positives about getting divorced. More than most newbies can even imagine.
LH,
I could very well be BS'ing myself and I also recognize that and you are right, doesn't really matter right now. At the very least I do have a very clear picture of the type of relationship I want moving forward.
Quickly coming up on the 5 month mark and not much to report. Things are going pretty well for me outside of the sitch. GAL has been in overdrive with lots of dinners and gatherings with friends, fishing, working out and messing with some of my hobbies. I have taken a break from IC for a bit as advised by the therapist. She is very happy with my progress and the changes I have made and suggested just some check in appointments down the road to make sure I am still on track. I am 90% back to my old happy confidant self and everyone around me has taken notice.
As far as S goes there is still absolutely zero progress. There is still no official parenting plan, still no discussions around financials and still no plan about the house. I do not like the feeling of being trapped but unfortunately until she is willing to deal with things there isn't much I can do. I try to get her to discuss things and sit down with me to go at least bounce some ideas off each other but every time I get the same reply, "we will figure it out". Umm ya, that's exactly what I'm attempting to do. It's bizarre to me that W seems to have no plan whatsoever to actually move on with her life. I probably shouldn't have but the other night I point blank asked her why "If you were so miserable in our marriage and I supposedly made you so unhappy and held you back so much then why are you still here and not moving forward with sorting things out?" I did not get a response.
As far as S goes there is still absolutely zero progress.
Unless you want S then this is actually good news. As LH said it's an indication that you've been doing good DB'ing. She is no longer feeling any pressure to act. Of course it is frustrating and you are asking "why isn't she doing anything" but the reason is because she's still trying to figure out what she wants to do. She could very well just hang there until she decides that staying isn't so bad. That happened to one of my coworkers, his W went WAS and he basically said "there's the door, leave whenever you want". That was about 3 years ago and she never did leave.
Ryan,
AS is right—that is good news, as long as you don’t want S.
My W has been all ‘I want S / D and blah blah blah’ and I told her she can leave and find her own place, and she is staying—so far, because she doesn’t want to ‘abandon’ the kids.
AS,
In all honestly I'm a bit conflicted but lean more towards actually wanting S to go through. Part of it is how amazing life as a 33 year old bachelor is for me and how much I am enjoying my freedom and alone time. The biggest thing for me is the house. While I do have a house and am thankful to have a roof over my head I do not feel like I have a home. I feel very unsettled and am excited about the idea of making a new home for myself either in a new place or in our current home. If I could financially pull it off I would not be living in the same house currently. I have presented several options, sell the house and split the cash, me buy her out and I already have re financing set up to do that or she can buy me out. I even offered for her to buy me out for less then 50%. Another big part of why I want the house sorted out is the current living arrangement is really confusing the kids. We sat down a while back and had "the talk" with them about us separating etc. and got over that hurdle. They had a tough week but settled in and began to accept their new reality but nothing really changed. D9 and S7 are always asking why we still live in the same house and when are they going to get a second home. They are actually quite excited about having two houses and living part time with me and part time with W.
On the flip side my first choice would be to work on things and build marriage 2.0 but in reality that probably will not happen.