A new mindset for Burned. This is thread 7.

[burned]

Leaving the past behind in the previous thread.

[burned]

For those joining us at this point...I don't know what to say. The last thread taught me a lesson: gathering facts does not result in a whole lot of anything except spinning, negative emotions, fear, and the resulting bad decisions that are made based on fear.

Now I know what I know, and it hasn't resulted in any personal growth. So it's time to get out of my head. It's time to start holding myself accountable. Time to set some goals and really get to work on them, on the recommendation and relentless encouragement of Amoafwl.

Yesterday I quit drinking alone. It was getting out of hand. This was something I had been thinking of doing for a long time. And since I live alone, from now on I won't be keeping any beer in the fridge. This morning I was pretty agitated, anxious, and irritable. I know this will pass. So anyway, that was an unwritten goal that got achieved.

Good goals are SMART: specific, measurable, accomplishable, relevant, and time-bound. And they can be nested!

Here's one of my main goals: be more positive. W was always frustrated by my glass-half-full attitude, and I think it may have been a contributor to my sitch. More importantly, a positive attitude will be a contributor to a healthier relationship in the future. I have struggled with depression all of my life (and psychologists will tell you that the earlier it starts, the worse it tends to be). You could call me dysthymic on my best days.

But that goal is too abstract. It's more of a LIFE goal (long-term, important, far-reaching, and empowering -i just came up with that one myself). So let's nest some SMART goals in there that I'd like to accomplish by the end of October:

1. watch a video on positivity with Shawn Achor accomplished! (that's what led to this)
2. start and maintain a gratitude journal (I had been doing it haphazardly, now there's structure)
3. get better at making goals by reading some books on goal-setting (is this a meta-goal?) -- ordered Creating Your Best Life and The Slight Edge
4. exercise (might be tough to accomplish due to currently-broken ankle)
5. do random acts of kindness daily -- for example, floating around this board and saying encouraging things to you all, but also complimenting people at work for things they did well (I am the only male alongside 9 females with doctoral degrees, so I'll try not to compliment anyone on their attire)

There's a start. Hopefully when I accomplish goal #3 I'll get better at this. I've already learned that you have to operationalize these bad boys to the best of your ability.

[burned]

Public Gratitude Journal for 10/15/18

Current challenge: S and D and the WW quandary
What I'm learning from it: patience, perseverance, distress-tolerance, resilience, and of course goal-setting

Today I am grateful for:
1. a white Volkswagen GTI
2. having a job
3. having an apartment with furniture and heat

Today I succeeded at:
1. making some overdue phone calls at work
2. cooking pasta for myself rather than going out
3. doing the dishes right after eating

Today I choose to love myself because:
1. I can be a hard worker when my mind is clear
2. I'm learning about leadership
3. I have these intense blue eyes

Open to feedback, such as "Shut up, Burned."

[Ready2Change]

I like your last two posts.

Here is an easy goal that you can accomplish daily and feel a sense of accomplishment and start the day out right:

Make the bed.



Not my idea, I believe this is a military thing.

[MoveFrwd]

1. watch a video on positivity with Shawn Achor accomplished! (that's what led to this)
2. start and maintain a gratitude journal (I had been doing it haphazardly, now there's structure)
3. get better at making goals by reading some books on goal-setting (is this a meta-goal?) -- ordered Creating Your Best Life and The Slight Edge
4. exercise (might be tough to accomplish due to currently-broken ankle)
5. do random acts of kindness daily -- for example, floating around this board and saying encouraging things to you all, but also complimenting people at work for things they did well (I am the only male alongside 9 females with doctoral degrees, so I'll try not to compliment anyone on their attire).

Yeah, this is a great start. It certainly helps to have it all listed out.
But, you have 5 things, and two are already crossed out. So maybe let's stretch a little. Remember, this is what you want to do. It's OK to fail or miss some of them. My biggest takeaway in reading your list isnt necessarily only "positivity" you should focus on. Can you maybe extend this to "self-care"?

some thoughts:
- cook dinner for myself 4 times a week. Try at least one new recipe.
- develop a diet plan and stick to it?
- drink alcohol no more than 2(?) times per week and no more than 3(?) servings each time.
- go to at least one GAL where I dont know anyone. Send at least one friend request.
- do at least 1 activity focused on self care per week - massage, chiropractor, float, bath, haircut, manicure, dentist?, eye doctor?......it doesnt really matter.
- buy one new outfit outside of my normal comfort zone. Wear it to work.
- do some type of exercise two times per week (swimming? weight lifting? hobbling on crutches around the block?)
- develop a budget plan and stick to it
- see IC at whatever frequency you are doing?
- do one random act of kindness each day. Document it.
- complete the happiness journal daily.

Again, thats just a thought. The point is to stretch yourself.
And then come back in a few weeks...or daily if you want....and review your list and how you did.

[burned]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm hoping the books I ordered will have more ideas like this. I think I got a little ahead of myself trying to develop a framework with sub-goals and sub-sub-goals. Keep it simple.

Something I'm learning from this is something that is excruciatingly hard to stomach, which is that pretty much my entire life I've lived to "serve" others. I have always waited to be told what to do, and then do it as best I can so that I get a prize. It's pretty bad. W was probably tired of having to be the one to say, "Hey, how about today you do such and such." So "taking ownership of my life" is going to be fairly difficult because I'm up against some seriously deep-seated personality traits. Ick.

But that can't really stop me, I guess. I don't have any other choice (except to find another mother and repeat the whole process, nope).

[AnotherStander]

Great posts Burned, you're on the right track!

The last thread taught me a lesson: gathering facts does not result in a whole lot of anything except spinning, negative emotions, fear, and the resulting bad decisions that are made based on fear.

So true. It brings no answers, just more questions.

[burned]

Thanks to both of you for pushing me. Cause or effect uncertain, but as of last night I started feeling a bit more comfortable with the detachment situation. Like, "I can handle this, I hate it, that's OK, it's not going to kill me." Hope it lasts a bit longer this time. I am going to put in the effort to focus on myself and MAKE it last longer this time.

[hoosjim]

GREAT job, burned!!

These are exactly the kinds of goals you should be setting for yourself, and i wholeheartedly agree with the others posting today on this... you are doing GREAT. Keep it up!

I will comment on Ready2Change's "make the bed" idea-- Sounds small and inconsequential and some may scoff, but... it really is a GREAT way to start the day. Sets the tone. And, yes, it is a military thing. There is a great speach by some general or other you can find on YouTube if you search it on the importance of making one's bed for success in your day and your life. See if you can find it online, it is worthwhile and not terribly long.

And again, keep up the good work!! We're all behind you!

[neffer]

You are finding yourself B...I was very much just like you. Living with the need of been accepted...so I needed to figure out that.

Keep moving forward. Feel what you want, be yourself. Move forward.

[burned]

Saw a comment from Steve in another thread about "logic and reason" and realized that's my biggest crutch. So starting today I'm jettisoning that and trying something "new," a.k.a. something people have been telling me to do for a while.

Problem is these changes never stick. Ask W! So I will have to hold myself accountable, and maybe my "men's group" here will hold me accountable, too.

It's amazing how far down to the basics I have to dig. Frustrating that I wasn't able to get to this point until I started detaching. Frustrating how long it took me to detach. Because there was denial, resistance, opposition.

She may never see the changes but that's her loss, I guess. I'm getting better at accepting that.

Onward.

[burned]

Quick question, unrelated to goals.

I'm suddenly feeling more detached. I still do not want D, but at this point that's really just so that I don't have to go through the process, the cost, the publicity, etc. I'd be glad to have my W back but I recall her saying "I have nothing left to give to this M" and after doing some googling to see what the non-DB recommendations are (which I assume are the ones she reads), that statement is a bad omen.

Those of you who have filed, how did you know you were ready? I wouldn't do it to appease her or to get a reaction or anything. I just don't know what that feeling feels like. I'd like to know so that I'll know if/when I feel it.

Those of you who were served, what was that like? Were you blindsided or was there some kind of buildup?

She hasn't filed but she thinks it's just a matter of putting a little document together and sending it to the judge. Sure, it won't be TOO hard, no kids, could buy the house outright with retirement savings (it is a SUPER cheap house), I could sign a quit claim, etc.

I suggested a mediator and she seemed to think that was more than we needed. Not gonna try to interpret or mind read. Maybe she's completely terrified and uncertain. Maybe she's as cold and determined as her actions indicate. But she hasn't really taken any actions that a normal person would if they were dead-set on doing it. Like, OK, asking her brother how he did it. But she doesn't have a lawyer, she hasn't thought about taking over the mortgage, etc. etc. etc. So maybe her actions aren't as clear as I make them out to be. Can anyone comment on the difference between Ws who pushed the process through, vs. the ones like mine who are just sort of fumbling through it? I mean, she's not a dummy, if she wanted to make something happen she'd figure it out and do it.

However, if she thinks it's just a matter of signing an agreement after we have a little discussion, and I say, "I won't stand in your way if you want D," am I not standing in her way by putting off having that little discussion?

I tend to think out loud and I'm now thinking, hey, she can do what she wants, I'm feeling detached like I'd be OK with either outcome. OK, not THAT detached but I feel a bit better about it today. At this point I'm still going to DB and see what happens, but I'm trying to prepare myself so that I'm better able to respond calmly depending on the circumstances.

I just don't want to be the guy who is a pain in the rear because he didn't cooperate, thereby worsening the sitch.

[equalzr]

My WW blindsided me when she filed...and yes it hurt like hell. She didnt even have the decency to tell me she filed. On the day she did it, we had friendly casual texts about our S and a few other things. The next week i get a paper in the mail from a random lawyer trying to drum up business askimg about my case. She had the papers hidden in the house for nearly a week and didnt hint about it one bit.

As for my W, shes very thorough. She dots every i and crosses every t. Im not sure how your W is, but mine does her homework. That was one of my biggest attractions to her. Dont try to guess where your WW is at in the process, because they wont give you any real clue as to what is going on in their head.

My WW told me for almost a year and a jalf she didnt want a D, and that she wanted to stay married. Once i found out real info on her A, all that changed quickly. She strung me along as plan b, and once she couldnt keep her lie up she shut down.

[MoveFrwd]

Those of you who have filed, how did you know you were ready?

I think the old saying is "if you have to ask, you arent ready."
Seriously...at this point, what is your purpose in divorce? In my opinion, you will know when you know. When you are finished with the relationship and have no interest in considering continuing or revisiting it, thats when you end it. It sounds like you are still wanting to impact her in some way with this line of thinking.

Those of you who were served, what was that like? Were you blindsided or was there some kind of buildup?

It was a piece of paper that was sent to my lawyer's office. Luckily, nobody walked up to me at my home or while I was out and handed me papers.

I suggested a mediator and she seemed to think that was more than we needed. Not gonna try to interpret or mind read. Maybe she's completely terrified and uncertain. Maybe she's as cold and determined as her actions indicate. But she hasn't really taken any actions that a normal person would if they were dead-set on doing it. Like, OK, asking her brother how he did it. But she doesn't have a lawyer, she hasn't thought about taking over the mortgage, etc. etc. etc. So maybe her actions aren't as clear as I make them out to be.

I couldnt help but chuckle at your "not gonna mind read" comment considering what followed.
Look....she will file when she files.

And frankly, what would really be different if you were divorced right now?
Why does that signal seem to mean so much to you? There are plenty of people who get divorced and then remarry. I think I heard something like 5-10%, though who knows what number is really true. I guess my point is that your relationship is more than a piece of paper stating your legal obligations to each other.

However, if she thinks it's just a matter of signing an agreement after we have a little discussion, and I say, "I won't stand in your way if you want D," am I not standing in her way by putting off having that little discussion?

Seriously? Are you avoiding her calls? Are you hiding from her? Are you deliberately taking a long time to sign stuff? She will move at whatever pace she decides. Fast, slow, impossibly slow. Incredibly fast. Let her. Do your own thing and focus on you and what is important to you. IT ISNT YOUR JOB TO HELP HER THROUGH THIS. You arent standing in her way by doing nothing..

I just don't want to be the guy who is a pain in the rear because he didn't cooperate, thereby worsening the sitch.

I know this sounds flippant, but it's a serious question.
What do you mean by "worsen" the sitch? And also.....how are you not cooperating? By not running over and fixing the thermostat??

[burned]

I like the flippant comments, they reach me for some reason. But as you can see I'm obviously still struggling with serious NGS.

Seriously...at this point, what is your purpose in divorce?

Appeasement. Setting her free the way she wants to be set free.

I couldnt help but chuckle at your "not gonna mind read" comment considering what followed.

Busted again. I was even thinking that as I wrote it and...yeah.

You aren't standing in her way by doing nothing.

OK, I thought about this and it makes sense. If she wants this to happen and she wants it to happen her way, she needs to be explicit and say something like, "Hey, we need to meet and put an agreement together and file. I'm available at such and such dates." Something like that. That's if she wants to keep living in fantasy land where somehow this is "mutual."

I know this sounds flippant, but it's a serious question.
What do you mean by "worsen" the sitch? And also.....how are you not cooperating? By not running over and fixing the thermostat??

Either I don't communicate well or, more likely, I can't get my head straight. There's not much I can do to worsen the sitch. It's still NGS or something along those lines. I'm periodically revisiting some of the stuff from earlier this month about being firm and self-respectful. Scrw the thermostats.

Sigh. On the positive side, made the bed today, and detachment has been making it easier and easier to focus on what needs to be done at work. So I'm rebuilding there.

[SteveLW]

burned, you've been handing out some solid advice to others. So take a step back from your sitch, and look at it objectively. What what the advice giving burned say to the poster burned in his own thread?

I like that you recognize your NGS, that helps with your healing from it. NGS will hurt everyone of your relationships. So fixing it will help you move forward as the best burned that you can be.

[burned]

burned, you've been handing out some solid advice to others. So take a step back from your sitch, and look at it objectively. What what the advice giving burned say to the poster burned in his own thread?

I like that you recognize your NGS, that helps with your healing from it. NGS will hurt everyone of your relationships. So fixing it will help you move forward as the best burned that you can be.

Thank you, Steve. I was just thinking to myself yesterday, it's kind of rewarding to pass along what I've learned so far rather than navelgazing and feeling sorry for myself. Helps me see that I have made at least a little progress, too.

[MoveFrwd]

Appeasement. Setting her free the way she wants to be set free.

So why do you have to SET her free? In my opinion, by going dark and not pursuing her, it is opening the birdcage Do you need to reach in and throw the bird in the air to "set it free"?

You aren't standing in her way by doing nothing.

OK, I thought about this and it makes sense. If she wants this to happen and she wants it to happen her way, she needs to be explicit and say something like, "Hey, we need to meet and put an agreement together and file. I'm available at such and such dates." Something like that. That's if she wants to keep living in fantasy land where somehow this is "mutual."

I mean.....maybe.
Either way, if she wants something to happen, she can put in the effort and make it happen. If she doesnt, she wont.

Eventually though, YOU may decide that you arent interested in continuing to be legally tied to her and cut that rope...But for now, what difference does it make? Let her act as she wants. It isnt your job to do this for her.

[burned]

by going dark and not pursuing her, it is opening the birdcage Do you need to reach in and throw the bird in the air to "set it free"?

Good analogy. I'm picking up what you're putting down.

Eventually though, YOU may decide that you arent interested in continuing to be legally tied to her and cut that rope...But for now, what difference does it make? Let her act as she wants. It isnt your job to do this for her.

Got it. I think a lot of this is fear, "When will she, how will it hurt me," etc. At this point I'm not completely averse to the idea of reconciliation, and I'm not really losing anything financially by staying with the current arrangement.

Another thing that plays a role is pride, like, "I shouldn't be letting her get away with this, I'll cut her off and that will show her!" Gotta be careful about that.

[Vapo]

Just finished reading all your threads. Man o man, you sure churn new posts like there is no tomorrow. You are really getting the royal treatment here, an impressive collection of vets are offering their wisdom. I realize it might be a bit overwhelming for you to take in all the information esp. in such a short amount of time.

Generally speaking you are doing well, I would venture to say that even better than it was to be expected at this point in time. But you sure are spinning. And by spinning I mean spinning your wheels, burning rubber and going nowhere. You have to learn to be still. In this type of situation even no action is action in itself. I can clearly tell you still have not given up the search for the silver bullet, that one action that will change it all. There is no silver bullet.

There's not much I can do to worsen the sitch.

Au contrare, there is pleny you can do to worsen the sitch.

Stay strong buddy...

[MoveFrwd]

There's not much I can do to worsen the sitch.

Au contrare, there is pleny you can do to worsen the sitch.
.

This is true. There are a lot of things you can do to make things worse. Any time you pursue her, you are making things worse.

But "not cooperating" is not really going to make anything worse. Following the program, following the "rules"....those are designed to avoid making things worse.

[EZdozit]

Burned,

My WAW filed D as a direct result of my pursuit and pressuring her back in June before I discovered DB. I had been sending all all sorts of communications, articles on impacts of D, reasoning to her why we could “easily” sort through our issues, etc. I finally called her and straight asked her if we had a chance....on a Friday.

The following Monday she calls and tells me she filed...and then said she didn’t want to serve me but tells me to go to the courthouse to pick them up. (WAW brains). Fortunately I had retained L by then and was able to have papers sent to his office.

Since June very little has happened. No court date, hearings, etc have occurred. We are in agreement on all major issues with custody, parenting time, division of assets. My sitch is similar to yours where W was all friendly and nice when I was in my fog and went along with all her demands....since I’ve gotten more assertive and not accommodating her every wish...she’s gotten very cold and vindictive. Her attorney has been milking her on small petty items that are irrelevant in the big picture. W knows I’m vehemently opposed to D.

Almost 2 week’s ago and requested that my attorney request to finalize D proceedings ASAP. Yet her council refused request and my attorney hasn’t had any dialogue and is confused as well. (WAW brain??). At this point I have no idea what’s going on in her head...but know I’m now prepared for whatever comes next. I’m good with who I am and that matters most at the end of the day.

[hoosjim]

You have to learn to be still.

^^^This is great advice. You don't always need to be "doing something"... at least WRT your WW and your MR. Or, really, with anything. Sometimes it is valuable just to be alone with one's thoughts. So much of the current generation (and, IMO, really everyone since about 10 or so years ago) seems to need constant stimulation... to be move move moving, at least mentally. The value of inaction, introspection, and mindfulness are ridiculously undervalued in our society these days.

One of the touchstones that really served as a good foundation for me and my W as we took the first hesitant steps towards piecing was mindfulness and "being fully present in the moment." It was valuable for me, individually, as well, and will serve you well in all your relationships, romantic or otherwise.

[burned]

Maintaining my new mindset. Setting teeny, tiny goals and accomplishing them, for the most part. GAL last night was dinner with my sister and her H who flew in from out of town. GAL tomorrow is board game night. Might play a game called Munchkin, which I was told I need to try.

But "not cooperating" is not really going to make anything worse. Following the program, following the "rules"....those are designed to avoid making things worse.

I reviewed the rules, and found that since Saturday I have only been in violation of 14, 31, and 32. I think what I meant here was that I don't think things can get a whole lot worse than they are.

The thermostat saga continues today. WW and I hadn't talked about it in a week. The last time we talked about it she said she would use the shared account to pay for someone to fix them. I said that's fine with me and left it at that. (In between then and now was the "money fight" saga.) So since Saturday, dead silence from her until she texted me today to tell me that she had new thermostats installed (i.e., didn't fix the new ones because she couldn't, didn't reinstall the old ones as I recommended). She told me how much it cost and asked me what to do with the "old" ones (the new ones that I wasn't able to install before S). I said the cost was fine, and she can donate the old ones or recycle them.

So, in the name of shedding light on the WW mentality, not mind-reading: WTH?! I see pretty much no reason to send me the text, since I gave the impression that I don't care what she does with the thermostats or the money. No need to tell me exactly what happened or how much it cost. She hasn't communicated with me about anything else whatsoever. It feels like she's needling me, baiting me, or trying to make me feel guilty, or all of the above.

I was warned that my interactions with her would get worse after I went dark. That's what I think this is. When they do this kind of thing, what are they trying to accomplish? I'm asking only because I tend to be very naive about interpersonal interactions, and this is a useful arena for learning how to look at things more carefully.

No idea what to make of it but it doesn't matter. Just wondering if there's something to be learned from this, besides the futility of focusing on her.

[MoveFrwd]

GAL tomorrow is board game night. Might play a game called Munchkin, which I was told I need to try.

Have fun! It's not a very deep game, but it's fun the first couple times through the cards. Enjoy.

The last time we talked about it she said she would use the shared account to pay for someone to fix them.
(In between then and now was the "money fight" saga.)

Im not really sure what was confusing. You had a 'fight' about money (especially joint money) and she used probably a decent amount to buy and install something for the house. Im not sure she was really asking permission since it was already done, but more just apprising you of what happened since youre going to see it on the statement at some point. I wouldnt read any more into it than that.

since I gave the impression that I don't care what she does with the thermostats or the money.

I disagree. You gave an impression that you care a LOT about money just Saturday.....

It feels like she's needling me, baiting me, or trying to make me feel guilty, or all of the above.

I think this is you projecting onto her. Do you feel needled? baited? guilty? I think shes just reporting a fact that broke your....rhythm. Accept it for what it is, reply, and move on.

I was warned that my interactions with her would get worse after I went dark. That's what I think this is. When they do this kind of thing, what are they trying to accomplish? I'm asking only because I tend to be very naive about interpersonal interactions, and this is a useful arena for learning how to look at things more carefully.

I dont see how this is bad? Unless she was screaming at you in all caps or adding tons of snide comments or something. But what you wrote sounded like she just sent you the facts and you got yourself into a tizzy about it. Are you expecting...more? something different?

[burned]

OK good feedback. I was making more out of it than I needed to. Definitely wanted to check on it but it makes sense.

My rhythm is just "moving on" and "letting her go" and "focusing on me," right? That's getting a little easier day by day. Just not used to the silence. Although the silence makes it possible for me to not think about how any of this is affecting her..........as long as I'm careful to actually not think about it.

[burned]

Well IC this morning was a grand ol' time. Basically an hour of him trying to convince me that pretty much the only thing standing in the way of my own growth is me. Well, me, plus wishful thinking about what I used to have. Or the illusion of what I used to have, what I thought I used to have. But mainly my own unwillingness to take ownership of my life and make the necessary changes now that the past is "off the menu."

And then on the way to the car I was thinking about what Amoafwl said a couple days ago, something about how W standing in the way of my growth isn't necessarily a bad thing. I'm probably butchering it. But the net result was a realization:

W was standing in the way of my growth, in a lot of ways. In fact, when you take a bird's eye view of the entire MR, W comes across as very controlling. I'll accept responsibility for my NGS but a Nice Guy was JUST the kind of person she needed. For what? To feel good about herself? To control someone else because she didn't feel like she could control herself? It has ALWAYS been about control. In fact, at one point after BD I said to her, "You know, W, you're complaining now that I'm incapable of taking care of myself, that I don't have a life of my own, that I don't spend time with my own friends...YOU created this. You spent a few years training me to be dependent on you, and convinced me that that's what real devotion looks like. So I went with it, thinking that's what would make you happy. And now you're telling me you can't stand how dependent I am, and you want out because the M became all about me taking care of you."

Why? Maybe because I stopped playing along? Maybe my obstinacy was a REACTION to her attempts to control me. And when that stopped working, she got fed up and went on to find someone else to control. I'm guessing OM is a softie, too. So sensitive, so wounded. Perfect target.

And now she's even more angry because I stopped cooperating with her, so she doesn't have control over how this whole sitch will play out. And thinking about what Sandi says about the attitude of the WW, controlling, resentful, selfish...it continues to make sense. So here's what I think will be interesting to see. Burned 2.0 will make his own decisions and won't let other people control him. Will that appeal to W 1.0, at all? Will Burned 2.0 even care?

Hoo, boy. Lots to digest here.

Side note, on a more practical DB level, IC agrees that I need to just shut up and learn to cook once and for all. So tomorrow night I'm making a one-skillet meal: paella.

[Ready2Change]

Separation DOES work...Do you know what this gift is?

R2C, can you elaborate please? Either here or on my thread...

Well I believe the main gift is the opportunity for personal growth. In his case, getting out of a physically abusing relationship...and hopefully ending it.....

Each persons gift is different.

One of my gifts:
I believe I have a much better relationship with my children.

One of your gifts:
Finding the DB support system.


My Ex-wife is on her own path. She is still stuck the way she was. How sad is that?

[burned]

One of your gifts:
Finding the DB support system.

Truth! And generally improved relationships with everyone except W. Better at judging the intentions and actions of others. More compassionate, a little bit better at listening. More "awake."

My Ex-wife is on her own path. She is still stuck the way she was.

I've heard a lot of people say that, both here and in real life. Almost like the one who gets dumped is better off in the long run.

And as for separations, can't say I'm a huge fan but one of AS's comments made me realize that it probably beats the alternative. Once I accepted it for what it was, it started paying off. Time will tell.

[Ready2Change]

And as for separations, can't say I'm a huge fan but one of AS's comments made me realize that it probably beats the alternative. Once I accepted it for what it was, it started paying off. Time will tell.

I am still a fan of not leaving the marital home and moving back into the master bed room. This is for the "Nice Guys". 95% of us here. We give the OPTION to the spouse:

"You are free to sleep where ever you like. I decided I like the master bedroom and will be sleeping here"

The "Bad Boys" need to change different behaviors. They are already assertive. They are already dominate. They need to learn not to physically control their spouse.

[sandi2]

Here is what I see in most of the nice guys here. The need to appease their W is their downfall. I'm not talking about that normal part of loving someone and wanting them to be happy and love us back. I think the nice guy's need to appease goes beyond normal. It consumes him. It prevents him from being able to mentally detach successfully. He is constantly wondering what she is thinking/feeling, and wondering what her next move will be. Bear in mind, the intensity or degree varies from man to man, just as some things vary about WW's. However, generally speaking, the problem exists.

I also see nice guys struggling in application. When he reads how to deal with a WW, it's difficult for him to know how to balance his actions. As a result, he will often times go to extremes or not use the appropriate timing to apply his new "get tough" actions. Am I making sense? I'm just saying that I think a lot of this new stuff probably feels quite unnormal to a man with NGS.

Most other vets will tell you to stop mind reading, which is good advice. Then Sandi comes along and tries to share how the WW mindset works...……. My purpose is to help you understand what you are dealing with, when you have a WW. I do see nice guys in their WW's head a lot, and I don't know if I'm helping or hurting.

So, in the name of shedding light on the WW mentality, not mind-reading: WTH?! I see pretty much no reason to send me the text, since I gave the impression that I don't care what she does with the thermostats or the money. No need to tell me exactly what happened or how much it cost. She hasn't communicated with me about anything else whatsoever. It feels like she's needling me, baiting me, or trying to make me feel guilty, or all of the above.

I missed the text, so what I say below may sound as if I'm talking off the subject, somewhat. It's not about a text or why it was sent.....but I will add that when you are pondering over why she texted, what it said, etc., it's a sign you are emotionally attached. WW's are very good at keeping their LBH emotionally attached. Why would she do it? B/c it benefits her to keep you emotionally attached. That's all you really need to know about it.


So, just let me say that having a joint account with a WW is very risky. We can cheer you on about not running over there when she snaps her fingers...…..but if we don't know you are sharing an account or that you'll be responsible for the bill, then you might end up cutting off your nose to spite your face. Know what I mean? If you really didn't care how much she spent to have it fixed, then case closed.

I'm not saying you made a mistake by not going to see about the thermostat. (I think it was computer controlled, or something.....can't remember the details). Anyway, I'd like to use this situation about her and the thermostat to illustrate and hopefully help someone who reads this. So, let's say that she calls wanting you to come fix something in the house and you blow it off by telling her to find someone else or hire someone to fix it. She's going to be angry that you didn't run right over there to fix whatever she wanted done. Whether or not it was a manipulation to get you over there... .....she's going to be angry that you didn't handle it, for sure. We wives expect the H to fix what is broken in the home, so out of habit (giving her the benefit of doubt) she turns to her H. But, a wayward wife will use her H, or anyone else, if it benefits her in some way. If she's left the MR, then she has to learn he is not her handyman, computer tech, etc. So, when she calls about something not working properly, he has to consider his options. Will he be responsible for the cost? If so, then he may decide to fix himself, or choose a professional to do it for him. If he is not responsible for the cost, then he can tell her to handle it herself.

If he doesn't go over to fix it himself, or he doesn't hire someone...….he needs to expect some type of backlash from her. It depends upon the individual woman and her level of resentment, as to how angry this could make her. It would be rare, IMHO, if it didn't cause a wayward W some anger, b/c she already has a big resentment problem with him. If she's angry that the H didn't go fix it or hire someone himself, do you think she's going to care how expensive it'll be? No! Especially if this is money in an account that only he makes deposits, she won't care how expensive it is. If the expense comes out of her financial support, then she'll be angry that she had to pay for it. However, in the moment of her having to find someone to fix it...….her emotions will rule her decisions.

Remember, she operates out of her emotions, not logic. Plus, the WW is selfish. She only cares what benefits her the most. Some WW's are spiteful. In this case, I could see her angrily "getting back at you" for not running right over there to take care of it. Even in cases where the woman is not wayward, if the living conditions were intolerable and you told her you didn't care who she got to fix it or how much it cost, I can see her not caring how expensive it was, just as long as the darn thing was fixed. My point is that you have to expect some back lash when you tell a WW you aren't going to her house and fix it and that she'll have to take care of having it fixed. That makes her angry! Which is fine, as long as you understand what you are doing. Are you hurting yourself in the long run? By that I mean, are you footing the bill? If so, then you might want to consider your options of fixing it yourself, or being the one who hires to have it fixed. Is it more important to break free of her relying on you, or "using" you? In this case, you said you didn't care about the money......so I'd say you may get an expensive bill or some type of backlash.

Backlash is okay......as long as it doesn't rob you of strength and make you appear as if she is dominating you. The only thing a WW respects is someone stronger than her. So, if she can dominate you, she won't respect you. I think nice guy H's fear the W's anger. Even after they split, he fears making her angry. Don't fear it, but do understand that her anger will be directed toward you in some form or fashion.

But yes, it's risky if you tell her she'll have to hire someone to fix it......if you will have to foot the bill. If she doesn't have access to your money, or if you won't have to pay the bill, then telling her to get someone is fine. If you are going to be responsible for the expense, then you might want to fix it yourself or be the one who hires a professional. That's the rule of thumb for now. What we fail to mention from time to time is when this changes. We are so targeting on the here & now, that when the stitch changes, so guys don't realize there are few things they should change, too. So, the question for the future is, "When does this approach change?" Simple.....when she stops being a wayward wife. If you've seen all the signs that indicate she is remorseful and humble, and she is treating you with respect...….(all that stuff I've talked about on the WW threads that tell what she needs to do), then how will you know when you can go over and fix whatever is broken. Well, there's several things to consider of course, but just to touch on it, I'd say to ask yourself if you feel like you are being "used" like a tool, and not appreciated. Are you left working on her toilet while she goes out with some other guy? That's what I mean.

Can you tell the difference? That's my question to nice guys. They have this strong belief that if they can just appease the woman enough, he'll win her. IMHO, this is something the nice guy has to learn how to shed. Men want to know why women are attracted to "bad boys". Well, I've just told you the secret ^^^^^^. That's one of my reasons for telling the man with NGS to work on those inner issues of his, and a lot of the issues he has in his relationships will be resolved.

[burned]

Thanks for the feedback. Useful information about strength vs. anger.

Last night I went to my first "real" GAL activity in a long time. Board games with some people I found on Meetup. We played Room 25, King of Tokyo, and a strange game about figuring out who's lying about being a werewolf. One guy there is super into games and is going to Germany next week for something called Essen Spiel where they show off new games.

Then a most bizarre thing happened. Suddenly we paused because it was time to do a discussion? The topic was grief. Most of the guys there (probably all about my age) talked about how they coped with losing loved ones, pets, and so forth. I talked about the loss of my M, my in-laws (who I was closer with than my own siblings), etc. One guy said he started going to this group because he was divorced a couple years ago. They were all very nice. So GAL turned into group therapy. Wasn't expecting that. But I had a good time. I will be going back.

---

Aside from that, I'm completely exasperated. It's not worth going into details about thermostats, money, anything. I've been doing things as instructed (probably not as well as I think I have), but the sitch continues to deteriorate. There is basically no M left to save. Going dark has NOT made anything better. I know it's just a tool to allow us to have time and space apart from each other, but I don't feel any better after a month of this. Interactions with W are now about as unpleasant as they could be. No temp checks. Texts no longer include even the most basic courtesies. It's just straight business. I think probably that interaction we had last week where I said "I don't think divorce is the solution, you know how I feel about this" really set her off.

This morning I got a terse text asking when I'll be getting my stuff from the house. We agreed that tomorrow works. I'm trying not to be pessimistic but I anticipate it'll be a pretty bad day. And I've had a lot of pretty bad days lately. IC says I have my foot nailed to the ground and I refuse to pull out the nail.

I will say that I'm starting to understand the benefits of GAL. Having had a good night last night, meeting people who seem to like me despite all the things W has told me are wrong with me, that's helpful. Maybe I'd be feeling even worse now if I hadn't done that.

[Hero18]

Burned, I am probably the last person on here to give advice, just see my thread. I think the same advice I have been getting also applies to you. You just need to continue to go out and be amongst people even if it means going by yourself. Just interact with the people around you, it will remind you of what positive human interaction feels like and lift up your spirits. GAL is naturally a great tool if you use it correctly...you are either all in or all out. If you do it half heartedly (like me) you will only get half the result. It could be that the hobbies or activities are not stimulating your brain enough, maybe try something that is both hard mentally and physically so your brain does not have the opportunity to switch to the topic of your R. Think of things like Rock Climbing or Learning of to Salsa dance, both require a lot of concentration and would provide your brain the necessary break from your sitch. If I recall, you recently hurt yourself so maybe those are off the table at the moment, but hopefully you get the idea.

I really enjoy reading your posts and think you also offer good advice to others.

Like others on the board here, I am pulling for you.

[Twofeet]

Burned sounds like you are doing better or trying to do better. That's good. Pull out that nail, it will hurt immensely for a brief period of time, but look at the alternative. Would you rather be nailed to the floor, just stuck, while the nail causes your foot to fester and eventually your whole leg has to be removed? Get what I am saying?
On a similar but different note, I know you have an foot/leg injury, but you should really try to find a physical activity to do. Low impact, like swimming, maybe yoga, can you ride a bike? I find physical activity a form of meditation in it's own right. Btw what's the status on your injury?

Keep moving forward, with positive progress you are going to be AMOAFWL.

[burned]

Thanks guys. I'm trying to do better but flailing and failing. I was never very good at controlling my emotions. No idea if anything I'm doing is "working." It certainly isn't improving my R with W in the moment. Will it increase the chances of R later? Maybe, but like all LBSes say, "I know my W and when she says she's made a decision, that's that." I'm feeling stagnant, listless, stuck, unable to detach. And it has been really hard learning, for the first time, at age 35, how to make my own decisions.

As for exercise, the ankle remains broken and it doesn't feel any better after a couple of weeks using the air boot. But: one of the things I will be taking from the house tomorrow is my WaterRower. I have room in the apartment, and rowing is a low-impact full-body workout. I've had that thing for years and never used it (another of W's complaints). Time to get back into it.

I wonder if my outlook will change once I start getting some aerobic exercise for the first time since June.

Edit: you know what really scks is that last night I sort of did feel like AMOAFWL. I was enjoying myself, people seemed to like me, cracking funny jokes, being my old usual self. But behind all of that was just the same pain. The feeling of, "I had something good and now I don't, and there's nothing I can do to undo that."

[Ready2Change]

I was enjoying myself, people seemed to like me, cracking funny jokes, being my old usual self. But behind all of that was just the same pain. The feeling of, "I had something good and now I don't, and there's nothing I can do to undo that."

Yes, that happens for awhile. Keep doing positive things. We are human and need to feel both the pain and the pleasure. Focus on the pleasure. Deal with the pain as it comes. You can handle it.

[burned]

Spent some time tonight with friends. They were “our” friends but now “my” friends. I have been avoiding social media but they have been keeping an eye on W and tonight they informed me of their opinion that, based on W’s posts, she appears to be “unraveling.”

Oh well. I had a nice night, and people seem to like me the way I am. Time for bed.

[sandi2]

I've been doing things as instructed (probably not as well as I think I have), but the sitch continues to deteriorate. There is basically no M left to save. Going dark has NOT made anything better. I know it's just a tool to allow us to have time and space apart from each other, but I don't feel any better after a month of this. Interactions with W are now about as unpleasant as they could be. No temp checks. Texts no longer include even the most basic courtesies. It's just straight business. I think probably that interaction we had last week where I said "I don't think divorce is the solution, you know how I feel about this" really set her off.

It sounds as if you were expecting something from her by Going Dark. Going Dark is to help the LBS deal with their emotions and to get themselves out of the panic mode to "do something/anything". It's to help them to detach from the emotional drama of their spouse. It is time & free space to heal or work on your own issues....get IC, read, or whatever. The LBS is so emotionally enmeshed with their spouse and the drama of the stitch that it's very difficult to see, hear, touch, or smell anything else. When they go dark, they can pull away from all that drama......and the space helps them discover the life around them, rather than just focusing on the stitch.

You went out one night, and already feel the positive effects.

[MoveFrwd]

No idea if anything I'm doing is "working." It certainly isn't improving my R with W in the moment. Will it increase the chances of R later? Maybe, but like all LBSes say, "I know my W and when she says she's made a decision, that's that." I'm feeling stagnant, listless, stuck, unable to detach.

I wanted to write to you this weekend, but I didnt have my laptop and figured it would be a pain on the phone.

Anyway, Im confused by what you mean by "working"...I mean, how do you even know? Ive written several times that I see it like taking a walk with your spouse but she is always 3 steps ahead of you. No matter how fast you walk, she will always stay that buffer zone ahead. Now, if you STOP walking, what happens...? For a while, it looks like she is only getting further and further away. So how can you judge what impact you are having on her. To me, it sounds like you are scared and frustrated and want SOME kind of resolution whatever it may be.

Edit: you know what really scks is that last night I sort of did feel like AMOAFWL. I was enjoying myself, people seemed to like me, cracking funny jokes, being my old usual self. But behind all of that was just the same pain. The feeling of, "I had something good and now I don't, and there's nothing I can do to undo that."

I understand that there is a loss. And it stinks that she is going to miss out on the new you. But thats HER loss. The new you will surely find some happiness again. Keep your focus on you and on the present.

[burned]

Going Dark is to help the LBS deal with their emotions and to get themselves out of the panic mode to "do something/anything". It's to help them to detach from the emotional drama of their spouse. It is time & free space to heal or work on your own issues....get IC, read, or whatever. The LBS is so emotionally enmeshed with their spouse and the drama of the stitch that it's very difficult to see, hear, touch, or smell anything else. When they go dark, they can pull away from all that drama......and the space helps them discover the life around them, rather than just focusing on the stitch.

I'm starting to realize this, bit by bit.

Yesterday I went to the house to get most of my belongings. Lots of emotions there but maybe I handled it a bit better than expected. Can't decide if I want to get into the details or not. I guess I'll summarize.

Essentially she "set aside" everything that was even remotely connected to me. Like, all the way down to refrigerator magnets. Except a couple of very conspicuous things that she left in place. This was very weird, and it's pointless to wonder why. Either she is having trouble "letting go" or else she knew I'd see them and spend the rest of the day wondering. In that case it's pretty manipulative. No way of knowing.

It's all just strange, surreal.

[burned]

I wanted to write to you this weekend, but I didnt have my laptop and figured it would be a pain on the phone.

Funny, I was wondering if maybe you just take a break from this place on weekends. But there were a couple times I thought to myself, "what would Amoafwl say" so I think I'm making a little tiny bit of progress.

To me, it sounds like you are scared and frustrated and want SOME kind of resolution whatever it may be.

Yeah. And what it is changes form moment to moment. Usually in the morning it's "I want this pain to stop." By the afternoon it's "I want what I had." And by the evening its "I am so angry at her, I want her to suffer and I want to replace her with someone new as soon as possible."

Of course none of those things are things I can just "think away." And it takes time. And so forth. So I walk on.

[MoveFrwd]

To me, it sounds like you are scared and frustrated and want SOME kind of resolution whatever it may be.

Yeah. And what it is changes form moment to moment. Usually in the morning it's "I want this pain to stop." By the afternoon it's "I want what I had." And by the evening its "I am so angry at her, I want her to suffer and I want to replace her with someone new as soon as possible."

Of course none of those things are things I can just "think away." And it takes time. And so forth. So I walk on.

I think the bolded part is so important. Right now, you are in such a state of disarra that you cant even keep track of what you want. Thats why what Vapo said to you is so meaningful. There is no point to randomly picking one of those paths to down. And ruminating and focusing on figuring out which path to take is like spinning your wheels in a mudbank. Take this GIFT of time you have been given and just live for a while. Accept that there may not be any resolution until there is. Accept that there are questions you may never know the answers to.

Focus on your goals. And on the GAL activities you seem to be enjoying. It sounds like there is a lot of potential in store. Dont rush just to get to the end.

[hoosjim]

Yeah. And what it is changes form moment to moment. Usually in the morning it's "I want this pain to stop." By the afternoon it's "I want what I had." And by the evening its "I am so angry at her, I want her to suffer and I want to replace her with someone new as soon as possible."

My cousin, going through a painful/tumultuous separation divorce at the moment that is NOT of his choosing, has indicated to me that he feels all of these things. Very strongly. And cant get past them. Just kept going by his old place and going by his old place and calling and calling etc etc even though STBXW wanted him to leave her alone.

His parole violation hearing was this past Friday and my aunt bailed him out on Saturday. Trial in three weeks.

Restraining orders can be such a b***h.

Keep GAL-ing, forget the wench, and be glad you're not my cousin. (Hopefully.)

Seriously, though, you're doing much better these days (and i don't see you going down the same road as my cousin-- unless you have a couple of priors and are on parole after getting busted for cooking meth... you're not, right? ... i just thought it make you feel better by comparison ). Anyway, good dynamic with you getting out... There are people out there who will like and want to be around you... probably lots of such people, but you'll never find them by sitting around moping.

Keep up the forward progress!!!

[burned]

It’s funny, it doesn’t feel like progress at all. Maybe you outside observers have a better perspective. At this point I’m frankly just annoyed at myself for allowing her to continue invading my thoughts. I feel stagnant. I guess being calm is better than spinning, but it all feels like a kind of failure. And maybe that’s because I’m impatient and I need to be thinking more long-term. I mean at this point I’m comfortable just letting things be. But it’s interesting to me that suddenly people are saying “You’ll find someone nice,” rather than, “You have a chance at repairing your M.” Guess I was a little too late for that. Or not? Maybe the “progress” is the fact that I’m starting to let things be rather than trying desperately to make something happen. But I’ve already done so, so much damage.

And yet here I am, not D yet, so I can’t say I haven’t “busted” anything, but who knows what tomorrow will bring.

What a very bizarre mix of hope and despair. But I know what I need to do, and I know it will be good for me in the long run I think. This would be so much easier if I still lived in the city. Not an excuse, just an observation.

Random thoughts. Tomorrow is a new day.

[NIBS]

Know you are not alone burned. I am right there with you. Your words seem like I am typing them, only you spell better. I feel for you, I really do.

[equalzr]

Yep, your not alone in this. There is a bunch of us in very similar situations, and some of ours are even worse. I agree, its crazy how similar our sitches are.

[burned]

Thanks guys. It’s true, I get mopey in the evenings. But I know we’re all in the same boat. Well, more like...a bunch of different-colored kayaks that we all rented at the same shady lakefront shack, and they didn’t give us any paddles. And we’re floating in the middle of the lake. Ha! So anyway, hey, since it scks that we all have to be here, we might as well just float, have a beer or two, and then. And then! Then we put our hands and feet in the water and start getting those kayaks back to shore.

[Ready2Change]

I am sorry you are all in the kayaks.....There are new powerboats on the shore with your names on them. First one there gets to pick the color they want!

[Vapo]

Thanks guys. It’s true, I get mopey in the evenings. But I know we’re all in the same boat. Well, more like...a bunch of different-colored kayaks that we all rented at the same shady lakefront shack, and they didn’t give us any paddles. And we’re floating in the middle of the lake. Ha! So anyway, hey, since it scks that we all have to be here, we might as well just float, have a beer or two, and then. And then! Then we put our hands and feet in the water and start getting those kayaks back to shore.

Absolutely love your kayak analogy.

[lost8]

Hey burned,

Yeah we are all there in the same lake. I had two solid weeks of GAL and steps towards detachment, was feeling good about myself, sleeping well, exercising. Then bang she wants to spend the weekend with me, thinks I moved on, a lot of talking and fooling around, drunken I'm sorries and please for help....and yeah I took the bait. Monday rolls in and now Tuesday and its like she goes right back to her routine, independence, doesn't have to answer to anyone and strong as can be.

It does teach you a lot about yourself, need the strength not just for theses sitches but for life. I decided to pick up NMMNG to read a second time last night after slipping a bit this weekend.

Hang in there bud!

[AnotherStander]

I've been doing things as instructed (probably not as well as I think I have), but the sitch continues to deteriorate. There is basically no M left to save. Going dark has NOT made anything better. I know it's just a tool to allow us to have time and space apart from each other, but I don't feel any better after a month of this. Interactions with W are now about as unpleasant as they could be. No temp checks. Texts no longer include even the most basic courtesies. It's just straight business. I think probably that interaction we had last week where I said "I don't think divorce is the solution, you know how I feel about this" really set her off.

Burned, I know it feels like FOREVER to you but 6 months is not long enough for her to see things differently. The recons that happen around here begin with the WAS having a change of heart, and while I have seen a couple in less than a year, it's far more common for it to not happen until the 1 to 2 year range. And typically the LBS gets little to no interest from the WAS until that time. So it's not uncommon to hear a LBS say there's no hope, their W is 100% done, she has zero interest, there is zero chance of recon etc. etc. etc. until suddenly the WAS unexpectedly DOES show interest. And then there's typically a year (or more) of work before they finally get to the point where they're willing to call it a reconciliation. It's a very slow process and requires a ton of patience. It's frustrating when you don't see baby steps but that's honestly pretty typical. Typically there's a long drought after BD where you get little to nothing from the WAS.

I'm trying not to be pessimistic but I anticipate it'll be a pretty bad day. And I've had a lot of pretty bad days lately. IC says I have my foot nailed to the ground and I refuse to pull out the nail.

I was going to say something similar. You need to get yourself to the point where she does not dictate your moods. Where you say "she's trying to make this a crap day but screw it, I'm having a GREAT day in spite of her."

It’s funny, it doesn’t feel like progress at all. Maybe you outside observers have a better perspective.

You're still looking to her to measure your "progress"!

Maybe the “progress” is the fact that I’m starting to let things be rather than trying desperately to make something happen.

Yes that's a start. Let go of the rope, then you can rebuild yourself and THAT is how you measure progress.

[burned]

I think it was AMOAFWL was the first to really get me to understand that marriage is just a piece of paper telling the govt that we are married. I am not religious so that takes that aspect of it out. My thought was we will get D and if she changes her mind and I am open to it we will just get back together sell one house and family will be back in tact.

I truly believe they won't take a second look until they KNOW you are not an option anymore.

(I know I'm going to take some heat for this because it means I'm still thinking about how my actions will affect her. I'm just trying to integrate multiple perspectives here so I have a sense of what my options are. In the meantime it's GAL and darkness for Burned.)

This is funny to me because in my case it's W who is trying to make me a non-option. But I'm letting things be, not doing anything one way or another. So what happens? She files, then changes her mind later? Or I file to expedite the process? (Yeah, I know, there's no way to know how it will play out.)

IC thinks the expedited route is the way to go, mainly for my sanity, but also because W most likely KNOWS that unless I file, I'm still attached. Amoafwl asked at one point why I'm so focused on that piece of paper and the signal it represents. I think that's the reason. But the advice I'm getting here, which is perfectly fine with me by the way, is to just put all that junk on the back burner and show her I'm detached by my detached actions. That is my current approach and I guess if I'm being honest with myself it's starting to help me recover a bit.

So then maybe it's about getting myself to a point that I don't care either way about D? In other words, I'm putting too much emphasis on the logistics of the R rather than the PERSON I have the R with. Wouldn't be the first time.

Just wondering what people think, for the sake of discussion. At this point I have no desire to D, but W is astute, and I did enough pursuing before my DB days that she can read me like a book.

[Ready2Change]

put all that junk on the back burner and show her I'm detached by my detached actions......she can read me like a book.

Stop trying to show her.

We can read you like a book as well. You are dancing in the corner putting on a show for W. She will see through that.


Let go of the outcome.

Do things because they are THE RIGHT THING TO DO.

I have this quote, not sure where I found it:

A confident man dives into situations that are critical to his goals, regardless of the perceived chance of failure. He shows no fear or hesitation.

What are you goals?

[MoveFrwd]

She can read Burned like a book.

But as you continue to grow and learn and develop....will she still be able to read Burned2.0 like a book? I say no.

I say filing based on anything you think she might think is ludicrous. What she thinks is irrelevant at this point. If she wants to divorce you, let her. You’re too busy being awesome to be worried about whether or not you are divorced at this time. (UNLESS there is some financial reason that you want to proceed). Don’t assume that the act of divorce will help your detachment.

How about I send you a piece of paper that says you are divorced? Will THAT help you detach?

[LH19]

B,

I have to be honest with you I don't know your entire story but I am going to post for you a posting from Accuray that really made me truly understand what is going on and I think it may benefit you.

Very sorry for what you've gone through here, it's heartbreaking. You've done some things very well and handled the initial situation as well as can be expected. More recently however you're falling into a very familiar pattern that leads to a long period of pain and limbo.

Being in this situation is like dying of thirst floating on a raft in a poison lake. Everyone will tell you not to drink the water, and why you shouldn't drink the water and what will happen to you if you drink the water. You can intellectually understand what they're saying, you "get it", you can convince yourself that you're not going to drink the water, but each night when you go to sleep and each morning when you wake up, you're thirsty as hell and the water is right there, so it's extremely easy to convince yourself that a little sip can't hurt. Despite the fact that you know you should not drink the water, you will just keep doing it because you keep convincing yourself it’s okay to do so because you're just dying of thirst.

So how do we bring that to your scenario? There is really only one prescription and that is to take the focus off of W entirely and focus only on you, your life, and what you want from it. Your learnings about what you need to improve about yourself are an asset you take with you, but everything else about W, what W is doing, what W is thinking, etc. needs to be entirely put aside.

You are not safe for her to approach until she feels you've let her go. That's a simple truth, but incredibly hard to accept.

Reaching out to W, making overtures, contacting W's family, talking to OM's W, snooping on W, this is all "drinking the poison water"

Why are you doing it? Why are you so obsessed with W? You were in a relationship with a woman who wasn't meeting your needs, who would irrationally blame you for anything that went wrong, and then cheated on you and lied to you. Why is that a prize worth making the focus of your waking attention?

The reason is that you are grasping to re-establish a feeling of control over your life.

When W dropped the bomb she ripped your sense of stability away from you. From your perspective you didn't do anything to deserve it, you couldn't stop it from happening, and you couldn't put things back together afterwards.

That would make anyone feel totally out of control, spinning down the drain, and that is a horrible feeling!

You are trying to analyze and understand everything so that you can build it into a rational model so that it will never, ever happen to you again. If I can avoid doing X, then Y will never happen. In addition, you want to unlock this puzzle, to deconstruct it so you can find the solution that will allow you to rebuild it. Finding that key would provide immense comfort.

Your brain has convinced itself that getting W back, or getting W to apologize and declare a desire to have you back is the very best and fastest way to restore your feeling of being in control.

With the benefit of time and distance, you'll realize that's what it's really all about, it's about regaining the ability to feel in control of your life and your future. It really has very little to do with W or who she is as a person, she's a lever to get you what you want, but that's really just an illusion.

You're dying of thirst (feeling out of control), and pursuing W is drinking the water out of the poison lake. You think it will satisfy your thirst each time you do it, but really it's just making you sicker.

We will tell you "don't drink the water!" Intellectually you'll agree, but the water is always there and logically it seems that drinking it is the shortest path to no longer being thirsty.

Instead, you need to paddle your ass to the shore, leave the raft behind, and get a drink somewhere else.

That's not code for having your own affair or finding a new woman to have a relationship with. It has to do with finding an authentic way to rebuild your feeling of being in control, controlling your own destiny and getting your mojo back.

If you take the focus off of W *completely* she will notice. That will give her space to breathe, and to think. That's the only way these things turn around -- the ONLY way.

[burned]

How about I send you a piece of paper that says you are divorced? Will THAT help you detach?

Haha!

No, but seriously. I'm detaching more and more every day. It's why I'm sort of preparing myself for various contingencies. Because at some point I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense to be married to someone you haven't lived with or talked to for months on end.

[TBSakaJ9]

I spent 8 months in limbo and while I used that time wisely it had no impact on my XW returning. I was not strong enough at the time but looking back I wished I would have filed for divorce myself. I realize now that she started dating as soon as she moved out (3 weeks after BD) of the house and more than likely only moved forward with divorce when she found someone she was comfortable with which is her current BF. I enabled the entire thing as I sat back, gave her time/distance and worked on myself. I enabled her to get comfortable and move forward on her terms.

That being said....don't file for D if you don't want one and don't do it as a trick or ploy to get your W to return.

[AnotherStander]

Just wondering what people think, for the sake of discussion. At this point I have no desire to D, but W is astute, and I did enough pursuing before my DB days that she can read me like a book.

My thoughts on the LBS pursuing D are that it can't happen until complete detachment is achieved and the rope is 100% dropped. How long does that take? At least 1 to 2 years. D is absolutely NOT a "technique" to bring a WAS back, which it sounds like is what you are hoping for. If you pursue D then it has to be because you are sure it's what you want, and with zero expectations that it'll change her mind.

In my case I was the one that finally pushed my ex to pursue the D, she had already prepared the paperwork with her L but it sat in limbo for a year. A business opportunity came up (a partnership) and clearly I didn't want to go into a partnership with a looming D, so I encouraged her to get the ball rolling and assisted with the paperwork. By the time that happened I was ready to end it because there was still a lot of uncertainty over how much I would owe her (since I kept the house), and also I had started dating and let me tell you, women aren't too keen on dating a separated (but still legally married) man, and I don't blame them because many of them end up dumping their new GF to reconcile with their W. So my attitude was "it's already over with so let's settle things legally and move on" and I was completely at peace with that. I've said this a few times but I expected to revisit depression and anxiety after D but frankly I walked out of court and just breathed a sigh of relief. I wasn't happy or excited or anything, but it felt like a huge burden of uncertainty had been lifted from me.

[burned]

Thanks LH/Acc for the analogy.

Joseph9, I'm guessing that a lot of these things play out the way they have to, regardless of what we do.

AS, I was meaning to ask you what happened with you back then, so now I know. You're always saying "there was no chance/opportunity for recon." But you've also said that things sometimes change despite the LBS thinking it's 100% done. So when you say "it's over with, let's settle this legally and move on," I guess that mindset has to come from a place of detachment rather than fear? I'm trying to make sure I'll be able to read things correctly if/when they start to change.

I mean, it's all just a lot of pointless hypothesizing mostly. I'll probably get as many different opinions as there are people. Plus it's past 5 so time to head home.

[TBSakaJ9]

Yes....they do. You have no idea how far your w is gone from the marriage. It is so shocking to believe early on and I still have a hard time grasping it when I stop and think. It really is amazing.

[LH19]

B,

I think everyone is trying to communicate two thing: the first is you filing for D with not stop the pain. The pain will only stop when you detach. This takes a long time maybe years. The second only file for D if you are ready. If you are actively posting on this forum I am guessing you are not ready.

As many have posted, there are not shortcuts. You have to move through the pain.

I promise you that it will get better just try to take it one day at a time.

Stay strong my friend.

[Twofeet]

Burned,

I like to solo backpack and solo big game hunt. When I go its 3 to 7 days at a time. Have you spent 7 days in the wilderness without seeing a single face? Being alone is frightening, if I die out there I die alone. I always have an initial urge to pack up and head home the first day. I just want to go home and see my wife and kids. However, I don't. I focus on the trip day by day, hike here, or hunt there, or look for water over here. I also use these time to reflect. Staying focused on the trip, and inner reflection quieten the urge to run home to the wife and kids, it quietens the fear. I make it through the trip and it helps me to grow. Every hike, every hunt is a learning experience. I liken this experience to my sitch, heck everyone's. We go alone, we can't go back, but when we get to the other side some will reconcile, some D, some D then reconcile, and so forth. If we really work on this the right way, focus on the trip, the next mile, meal, etc while reflecting on ourselves both the good and bad we will grow and learn and be better for it. Heck I am already outgrowing my W ability to communicate with me, I want an adult convo, she wants to argue, yell, and insult, etc.

You probably have heard the saying what doesn't kill you only makes you stronger. Well I for one am looking forward to being stronger.

[burned]

TF, that was actually my yearbook quote. Scary. And if someone who goes on weeklong solo backpacking trips and solo big game hunting trips is hurting as much as I am, then I guess I don’t have to feel like such a wuss. No offense but your W is a fool and you are the man only that fool would leave.

Different topic, for those of you who are more sedentary like me. Just started reading Robert Greene’s new book, The Laws of Human Nature. He’s the guy who wrote The Art of Seduction, which I think is on R2C’s reading list. Anyway, two pages in, seems like it’s pretty relevant.

[burned]

Exhausted all day, all I want is to go to bed. Then I get to bed and can’t sleep. Lovely.

Here’s one for the night owls: what if W is right? She’s not really acting selfish, crazy, or anything. She’s just over it. So maybe she’s right. We were incompatible, and too much damage has already been done...what if I’m the one who’s crazy and selfish for trying to fix this? I mean, sometimes things just don’t work out, and holding out hope is maybe just stubborn and counterproductive.

[crofton]

Exhausted all day, all I want is to go to bed. Then I get to bed and can’t sleep. Lovely.

Here’s one for the night owls: what if W is right? She’s not really acting selfish, crazy, or anything. She’s just over it. So maybe she’s right. We were incompatible, and too much damage has already been done...what if I’m the one who’s crazy and selfish for trying to fix this? I mean, sometimes things just don’t work out, and holding out hope is maybe just stubborn and counterproductive.

I also have the same thoughts about my own situation.

[Vapo]

Exhausted all day, all I want is to go to bed. Then I get to bed and can’t sleep. Lovely.

Here’s one for the night owls: what if W is right? She’s not really acting selfish, crazy, or anything. She’s just over it. So maybe she’s right. We were incompatible, and too much damage has already been done...what if I’m the one who’s crazy and selfish for trying to fix this? I mean, sometimes things just don’t work out, and holding out hope is maybe just stubborn and counterproductive.

So what? It makes no difference whatsoever. You still have your journey to take. AND FOR F. SAKE QUIT IT ALREADY (trying to fix IT as you call it). YOU CANNOT FIX IT. You can only fix yourself, but you are too stubborn (or blind) to even notice. You have years' of work to do on yourself and you come up with excuses why not to do it. Get your a$$ in gear already. This is your 7th thread and you are spinning your wheels like it's your first day.

Hope is never counter productive, expectations are. And you have a BIG problem separating the both.

[joejoe1]

B,

Ok, let's break this down. You say what if she is not ACTING. I can answer that, she's not. People feelings change on a daily basis. Stop worrying about how she feels. And focus on you. You can't change her! You can only change you. "Too much damage is subjective". There are folks on this board that have dealt with the craziest situations and now they are reconned. TxHubby sitch and W was out of control and now they are reconned. And others have crazier stories than his. Don't lose hope but drop all expectations. Live to heal yourself and not to save your wife.

Your statement about being compatible is you trying to rationalize your sitch. Being compatible, well there is really IMO no such thing. There are so many people who CHOOSE the person they are with because of things outside of being compatible and they make it work. There are so many people everyday that go thru destruction and pain being compatible has nothing to do with a person leaving.

Your WW will say whatever see needs to keep you at bay and on her string at the same time. Believe nothing they say. I tell my W all the time last summer you said this. And she says, "I was in a fantasy, the lowest point in my life". (I have never told her about DB, by the way). But last summer I felt the same way you feel B. And I asked the same questions. What if?

Work hard on you and the rest will work itself out.

[burned]

Thanks joejoe. I figure if my feelings change 5 times a day, maybe hers do too. I just don’t see it, she’s really good at putting up a front. She always was, and I used to be able to see through it.

Vapo, thanks for the ice bucket. I am stubborn, it’s true. That’s an area I should work on. And definitely true that I have a problems with expectations, it’s something my IC has pointed out repeatedly since this craziness began.

I overthink things. Another area of growth. But I’m doing some things that are helpful. Trying to do one GAL activity per week with new people. Rebuilding at work, and already I’m using what I’ve learned about NGS to deal with a particularly annoying colleague. And this morning I decided that when my ankle is healed, I’ll fly west and climb Mt. Hood or something. My sister is a mountain guide out there so she can probably take me up there. I’ll have to learn some technical climbing. I also live a couple miles from the AT so maybe for Thanksgiving (since I won’t be at W’s family’s place, and my parents aren’t from the US so they don’t really care about Thanksgiving), I’ll do a few days of cold weather backpacking. AT is quieter in the cold months.

So I mean, I have things to look forward to. Need to put in a little planning. Actually even the planning can be fun.

“You are what you do, not what you say you’ll do.” ---Carl Jung

[lost8]

Hey burned, I know it's not easy we all struggle but I have to keep telling myself to control the peaks and valleys. I still slip and have expectations but you have to slap yourself in the face and sometimes say out loud...STOP IT. We know what is happening but learn from it, stop giving in to it and sliding back on the see saw.

Don't try to figure out what she is thinking, assess what YOU are thinking when she makes a move towards you. Realize that it is only temporary...isn't that what it has been the last 100X? I'm right there with you and the struggle is real to fully detach but I work on it a little at a time.

I don't know what real R will look like or feel like but I can't keep sitting around waiting for it. I want to be in control of my life again and that does not require WW.

[MoveFrwd]

I enabled the entire thing as I sat back, gave her time/distance and worked on myself. I enabled her to get comfortable and move forward on her terms.

Im sorry for the hijack, but I dont really understand this. It sounds very bitter...like you should have done something differently. I dont see why it's a big deal that your XW was "comfortable" before filing. All you have control over is you....if you werent ready to file for divorce, then what difference does it make what she does or how she is doing it?

[MoveFrwd]

Exhausted all day, all I want is to go to bed. Then I get to bed and can’t sleep. Lovely.

Here’s one for the night owls: what if W is right? She’s not really acting selfish, crazy, or anything. She’s just over it. So maybe she’s right. We were incompatible, and too much damage has already been done...what if I’m the one who’s crazy and selfish for trying to fix this? I mean, sometimes things just don’t work out, and holding out hope is maybe just stubborn and counterproductive.

So what? It makes no difference whatsoever.

Exactly this. It just doesnt make any difference.

I think you just want answers. Or closure. Like....if you go for a walk, you want to have it planned out. To know the starting point, the path and the end. But this doesnt work that way. Theres no way to predict the future. There are no answers to your questions. Remember - YOUR ACTIONS SHAPE YOUR FUTURE. If you ask, will I always be this sad, I cant answer you because if you will it, it can be that way. Or, you can pick yourself up and lead an incredibly happy life. Those choices are up to you.....and they will determine your future. The thing is, the more you focus on the positive, the more it wills that future into existence. Dwelling on these questions only leads to a road of pain and frustration.

Every time you ask yourself a question like this what if W is right? it's the equivalent of smacking your head against the wall. How about you do what I did - attach a rubber band to your wrist and snap it every time you start going down the road of thinking about W....I'll bet it redirects your thoughts pretty quickly. It did for me....

[equalzr]

Every time you ask yourself a question like this what if W is right? it's the equivalent of smacking your head against the wall. How about you do what I did - attach a rubber band to your wrist and snap it every time you start going down the road of thinking about W....I'll bet it redirects your thoughts pretty quickly. It did for me....

This is what i did for a short time. My wrist took a beating.

[burned]

Hasn't been 10 minutes and there are red marks on my wrist. But it seems to work? Not so much the "pain," but just that it's annoying to have to stop and do that, and then I get ticked off and start doing something else.

[MoveFrwd]

Havent heard from you in a while, burned. Are you doing OK?

[burned]

Thanks for checking in. Yeah, I'm still here, lurking in the shadows, mostly feeling a sense of dejected resignation.

I've written like 3 book-length posts and I just can't find it in me to put them up because, well, it's just a bunch of stuff that proves that I really haven't made any significant changes and I'm still failing to implement all of the good advice I've gotten here.

And I'm not saying this expecting everyone to jump in and say, "No, Burned, it's OK, you're doing great, keep at it man!" More like, I am proud to announce that I am overwhelmingly aware of my many character defects, one of which is that I get hopeless when things get difficult.

It's just turtles all the way down.

[MoveFrwd]

So instead of focusing on that, what are you doing for GAL?

And how are you doing with the goals you set for yourself?

Lets focus on what is positive. Or at least the things you can control to BE positive.

[AnotherStander]

Exhausted all day, all I want is to go to bed. Then I get to bed and can’t sleep. Lovely.

This too shall pass. Burned, very sorry, I personally know how much it really blows having walked a mile in your shoes. But here's the good news- you haven't walked the 10 miles in mine, but you will, and it DOES get better. I spent many a night tossing and turning with my mind spinning like crazy. Now? I sleep like a baby, like I don't have a care in the world. Why? Because I don't. Whatever fire life throws at me I know I can handle, because I already crawled through broken glass in a the raging inferno.

Here’s one for the night owls: what if W is right? She’s not really acting selfish, crazy, or anything. She’s just over it. So maybe she’s right.

Well she is right, in her mind, for now. Here is my question to you and every other LBS here, your W changed her mind from being in love with you to not being in love with you. She CHANGED her mind, meaning she felt one way, now she feels another. What makes you think she can't change it back again? I mean you already have the proof that she can change her mind. Women come out of marriages where there was physical and emotional abuse and even THEY often attempt to recon. So how much better the chance for someone who was a decent husband and just needs some tweaking.

We were incompatible, and too much damage has already been done...what if I’m the one who’s crazy and selfish for trying to fix this? I mean, sometimes things just don’t work out, and holding out hope is maybe just stubborn and counterproductive.

People around here seem to think hope is a disease, like if they have hope then they are setting themselves up for disappointment and failure. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH HOPE. In fact, hope is an amazing thing. I originally had no hope, but then I said to myself "you know what? Some people DO reconcile, so why not me? My chances are as good as anyone's." So whenever I would get down I would stop myself and say "oh wait, this is just temporary because you WILL reconcile." And that hope lifted my spirits, allowed me to find happiness again, drove me to work hard at DB'ing. You already see the obvious irony here, I never did recon. BUT, the thing about hope is it is simply a state of mind. Hope IS what energizes us! NOT the thing we are hoping for, but hope itself. Do you understand what I'm saying? If you hold hope in your heart then it gives you positive energy and keeps you driving forward. I can't say when it happened but my hope changed at some point, from hope to recon to just hope for a better life. It changed from hoping for something I couldn't control to something I could. Never discount the power of hope.

[burned]

I appreciate the helpful feedback. I don’t really know how to respond.

I filled out D paperwork and I’m just building up the courage to file. I see no other way out of this. Of course I’m not going to do anything until I’ve slept on it for a few days or weeks. I’m going to re-read everything people have told me so far, because it seems like a waste of everyone’s time to just spin through the same questions over and over.

I’m not giving up, just going through a really rough patch. This must be part of the process. I know there’s light at the end of this stupid tunnel.

[equalzr]

Take your time and keep your head up buddy! Make sure your at peace with whatever decision you make.

[harvey]

When you GAL, 180, and FULLY detach, your life truly gets better. I had a tough time with detachment, but once you get there it helps out a lot. Really strive to be the best you can be without worrying about her. When that happens, life will give you endless possibilities. Minimal chance she'll come back (that's the odds from the beginning), but you'll make somebody else very happy. Life is too short to waste precious time getting stuck into something that will likely not work out (if we are all being honest).

[burned]

In the end I have to call this a journaling post because it’s not really useful aside from that.

Last night I went to sleep thinking hopeful thoughts. I thought, maybe the silence means she’s rethinking things. Probably not. I can hope, but I’m trying to ignore the expectations.

This morning she texts to ask about some minor irrelevant form she got in the mail. Then she asks “How are you doing?” First temp check in a month. So I took the bait. In the end all she wanted was to talk about dividing finances. It’s all she ever worries about. In fact it’s probably the reason she didn’t leave a year ago when the A began. To think that she kept me around, strung me along, just for that... Anyway, the rest of the texts were all business, no emotion. She’s dead-set on doing this. Actually I took a break from writing this and thought to myself, it almost seems like we’re both DBing each other, like, playing a game of chicken to see who will back down first. Like neither of us wants this but neither of us wants to be the one to “admit defeat”? Weird dynamic. I will admit that I’m handling it better than I would have a couple months ago. For example, just now I thought about asking her why, if she took down all of the little tchotchkes that remind her of me, and put them all in a box...why did she keep that one specific thing, a very meaningful wedding gift from my sister, and leave it in a very obvious visible place next to her favorite things? She’s trying to get rid of me but she intentionally put that there where she can see it. Or was it to manipulate me? No idea. But I just now almost texted her to ask about it, since I really don’t have much to lose. But then that would be pursuit, and it would be a setback, and she would immediately freak out...and IF anything I do is going to make a difference in her heart, it’s that I’m not pursuing.

Every time I think I’m almost detached, then something happens that makes me realize I was only at 20% or something. I need to be more patient, and I know there are people who have gotten through this even when they thought all was lost. Well, if it’s about my own survival, all is NOT lost. But I feel fairly certain that W will not be a part of my life for very much longer. And that’s sad. I’m trying to reframe this as HER loss, but it won’t feel that way until I get my confidence back.

GAL last night was board games, we played a game called Citadels. Then some dice games and card games. For some reason it didn’t cheer me up the way I was hoping it would.

Today I left the apartment to go to the local farmers market. More reminders of her and what we used to do together. So now I’m going for a drive to a nearby town just to have a change of scenery. At least I’m not in bed. Might go see my parents but that’s a 2-hour drive.

When I woke up this morning I had a strange feeling. “What if I’m stuck like this?” Pretty scary. At least then I realized that I can’t be stuck like this and it’s on me to do something about it. So I started reading The Happiness Advantage. There are some interesting ideas in there. I’m going to have to just try again and start putting in the effort to change my mindset. There are going to be a lot more moments and interactions with W like the one this morning, and I need to be emotionally prepared so that I don’t go off the rails every time. I mean, the way I am now, if that had happened on a weekday it would have destroyed my productivity for the rest of the day. At least it’s a weekend and I have time to go home and “lick my wounds” so to speak.

I’m still very appreciative of the kind words and encouragement from people here. I think that’s part of what keeps me going. Today I’m going to re-read my posts and remind myself of all the positive things people have said. Especially because I can already think of at least 3 things I just wrote that we’ve already covered in the past. But I’m transitioning into a newer, uglier phase. Just more and more irreparable damage. I want to be optimistic, but with the changing of the clocks, colder weather, no signs of improvement in the sitch (primarily due to my own inaction) I’m anticipating a pretty dark season approaching. Doesn’t help that it has been raining all week.

Anyway, not trying to be a downer but I realize that I am. Just writing this to document this part of my “journey.” You’re all telling me that someday I’ll be able to look back in time and realize how much better my life has become. I don’t know what that will look like, but the sooner the better. I like the idea that someday I’ll have the opportunity to try again, to live a happy life with the companionship of another person. But I have no idea how long it will be if/when that happens. So in the meantime I’ll try to hold on to a tiny little piece of hope that W might want to reconcile. And I’ll start working harder at acting like she’s really, truly gone.

“Crawling through broken glass in a raging inferno,” I like that. That’s a good description.

[ovrrnbw]

Don't read into what the silence means too much. It's unproductive at best and will set you up for a letdown at worst.

Just look at your next line about getting temp checked and ask yourself if you're ok with being part of her little game or if you'd rather be your own person. Detachment doesn't happen all at once, nor does it always happen in a linear fashion. A setback is only as big of a deal as you make. Live and learn.

You say you're "anticipating a dark season". Well life, seasons, and everything else end up being what you make of them". So "act as if" things will be great, then go and make your life great. Quit sulking.

PMA. Positive. Mental. Attitude.

[MoveFrwd]

Last night I went to sleep thinking hopeful thoughts. I thought, maybe the silence means she’s rethinking things. Probably not. I can hope, but I’m trying to ignore the expectations.

I know it's hard. What can you do to try to go to sleep thinking about you and your life? Or maybe give yourself a small time each day to really think about W and what it all means. But try to compartmentalize it so that it doesnt overwhelm you and your thoughts. I mean, theres no way to know how shes feeling right now. She could be silent because shes angry, sad, tired, busy.....who knows. It could be good...could be bad....could just BE. Are you familiar with Schrodinger's cat experiment? If you dont, it's that theres a cat in a box ihats either alive or dead. You dont know what it is until you look in the box...but looking in the box can change the state of the cat. So is the cat alive or dead now?? Theres just no way to know. Just know that the cat exists....and someday, maybe youll know...and someday, maybe you wont. Thats kinda how your R is with W right now. It exists in some capacity....but temp checking will change the state. So somehow, you have to accept that it just...IS.

This morning she texts to ask about some minor irrelevant form she got in the mail. Then she asks “How are you doing?” First temp check in a month. So I took the bait. In the end all she wanted was to talk about dividing finances. It’s all she ever worries about. In fact it’s probably the reason she didn’t leave a year ago when the A began. To think that she kept me around, strung me along, just for that... Anyway, the rest of the texts were all business, no emotion.

I dont see why this is a good or a bad thing. Was it small talk among acquaintances? Then it is what it is. Did you immediately jump back in to pressure mode?

playing a game of chicken to see who will back down first.

I dont get it....what is "back down"?
What do you think you should be doing differently?

I have to go, but I will add more later.

[SteveLW]

burned, I know it has been a while since I commented in your thread. That is because you have been in excellent hands here! Keep on DBing!!

[MoveFrwd]

I will admit that I’m handling it better than I would have a couple months ago. For example, just now I thought about asking her why, if she took down all of the little tchotchkes that remind her of me, and put them all in a box...why did she keep that one specific thing, a very meaningful wedding gift from my sister, and leave it in a very obvious visible place next to her favorite things? She’s trying to get rid of me but she intentionally put that there where she can see it. Or was it to manipulate me? No idea.

Accept that as growth and a positive and be proud that you didnt. Who knows why she kept it. Maybe it's pretty. Maybe she likes the reminder of you and her past life. Maybe she just wanted to mess with your head. Again, theres no way to know. And even if she tells you, is it true? Is she lying to you? to herself? The answer just doesnt matter.

But I just now almost texted her to ask about it, since I really don’t have much to lose. But then that would be pursuit, and it would be a setback, and she would immediately freak out...and IF anything I do is going to make a difference in her heart, it’s that I’m not pursuing.

It's this line of stinkin thinkin that I found really set me back. What do you mean "nothing to lose"? This isnt a football game where the clock ends at 0:00 and you have to try something when youre losing and time is running out. This is your LIFE and you have your whole life left to live. Nobody throws a hail mary in the middle of the second quarter and then walks off the field. Your back is only against the wall because youre putting it thee by emphasizing her and this divorce so strongly to yourself.

Every time I think I’m almost detached, then something happens that makes me realize I was only at 20% or something. I need to be more patient, and I know there are people who have gotten through this even when they thought all was lost. Well, if it’s about my own survival, all is NOT lost. But I feel fairly certain that W will not be a part of my life for very much longer. And that’s sad. I’m trying to reframe this as HER loss, but it won’t feel that way until I get my confidence back.

Detachment is a hard, cyclical, up-and-down process. It takes time, patience, perseverance and discipline. Youll get there if you keep at it. The last line of this is perfectly said.

GAL last night was board games, we played a game called Citadels. Then some dice games and card games. For some reason it didn’t cheer me up the way I was hoping it would.

Eh, youre allowed to have "down" nights. I wouldnt worry about it. GAL is way harder than it sounds. When youre feeling at your lowest, youre supposed to go out and have a good time with people you dont know? sounds ludicrous. My second game night I went to a few days before our official S started, I left halfway through because I wanted to come home and see my XW. As if, me leaving early helped to show her how important she was to me. You can imagine how much impact that had...Anyway, keep at it. It's helping you more than you realize.

Today I left the apartment to go to the local farmers market. More reminders of her and what we used to do together. So now I’m going for a drive to a nearby town just to have a change of scenery. At least I’m not in bed. Might go see my parents but that’s a 2-hour drive.

I know Ive told this story before, but I went to see the Avengers 2 movie about a month after our S and sobbed through the whole movie. AVENGERS. It's like the least sappy movie, and images of families and happy couples and whatever in a freaking SUPERHERO movie made me uncontrollaby sad. So I get it that there are all kinds of painful reminders out there. It's not easy, but with time, the pain will subside.

When I woke up this morning I had a strange feeling. “What if I’m stuck like this?” Pretty scary. At least then I realized that I can’t be stuck like this and it’s on me to do something about it. So I started reading The Happiness Advantage. There are some interesting ideas in there. I’m going to have to just try again and start putting in the effort to change my mindset.

Perfectly said.
Can you add this to your goals? How are they coming?

no signs of improvement in the sitch (primarily due to my own inaction) I’m anticipating a pretty dark season approaching.

Over said this perfectly. You reap what you sow. Keep your PMA and you will make your own season.

“Crawling through broken glass in a raging inferno,” I like that. That’s a good description.

You ever see Shawshank Redemption? The main character has to crawl through a literal tunnel of sewage to get freedom. That's basically how this process goes. Theres only one way through the pain and thats through the pain. You have to experience it to get to the other side. Sure, you can turn around and go back into the prison, but if you want your freedom, your independence, your happiness, thats the direction you have to go. Theres no shortcuts, no easy buttons. You can do it!

[sandi2]

This morning she texts to ask about some minor irrelevant form she got in the mail. Then she asks “How are you doing?” First temp check in a month. So I took the bait.

How did you take the bait? By responding, or by believing she actually "cared" how you've been doing?

Next question is…….if you recognize a baited hook, are you going to bite the second time around?

I will admit that I’m handling it better than I would have a couple months ago. For example, just now I thought about asking her why, if she took down all of the little tchotchkes that remind her of me, and put them all in a box...why did she keep that one specific thing, a very meaningful wedding gift from my sister, and leave it in a very obvious visible place next to her favorite things? She’s trying to get rid of me but she intentionally put that there where she can see it. Or was it to manipulate me? No idea. But I just now almost texted her to ask about it, since I really don’t have much to lose. But then that would be pursuit, and it would be a setback,

Yes, it would have been a setback......b/c you were making it too important. Why do you care why she put it there? Don't succumb to these type of temptations. Walk away with your pride and b@lls in tact.

But I feel fairly certain that W will not be a part of my life for very much longer. And that’s sad. I’m trying to reframe this as HER loss, but it won’t feel that way until I get my confidence back.

It's sad that the girl you M is gone. Do you really want this person to remain a part of your life? IDK, I'm just asking. If you can't have the girl you married, then you don't have to "settle" for someone who doesn't love you. You deserve better.

When I woke up this morning I had a strange feeling. “What if I’m stuck like this?” Pretty scary. At least then I realized that I can’t be stuck like this and it’s on me to do something about it.

There you go!

One of the first things I was told as a newcomer, was I am responsible for my own happiness. Not my H, or anyone else. I remember a previous time when a teacher over a group at church was using a book, happiness is a choice. I also remember not being receptive to it. You see, I already had that wayward mindset and I thought my H's job was to make me happy. I told myself this book was just type of positive thinking stuff. It's so embarrassing to admit it, but I'm being honest. There are so many things in life that we have absolutely no control over, but we can decide how we will think and conduct ourselves while we go through the experience. There are various names for it. Some call it a positive mental attitude, others may call it something else, but it all boils down to what I was told as a newcomer trying to find my way. It really is up to us.

[Hero18]

Burned, have not seen you in a few days, how are you doing?

I hope you realize that you have lots of support here in this forum if you need it.
If you have not already done so, give the phone coaching a try as well.

[burned]

I'm still here. Reading everything, trying to hold it together at work and in life in general. Mostly not succeeding.

Still have that "stuck" feeling and I'm going to have to bring this up with IC and probably talk to my doctor about increasing dose of AD meds.

D now appears to be just a matter of time, and W seems to be getting meaner and colder by the week. Another passive-aggressive text tonight. I don't know what's going on with her. I'm fairly certain I won't be getting a second chance. I spent most of the afternoon going over the last 7 months and trying to think of what I could have done differently. Pointless.

There are times I wish I could just get plastered and go home with someone, anyone. Has been half a year since I felt loved in a way that meant something. I know I'm supposed to love myself, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Hugs from friends and family doesn't quite cut it.

I could use any encouragement people might be able to spare.

[Twofeet]

Burned didn't you say you were Swiss? Do you have any family you could go visit over there for a week or two. Just to get your mind off things. I like to take vacation in the winter because it's the down time in my industry and it helps with warding off the winter blues.

[burned]

You know, that’s a really, really good idea. Not sure why I didn’t think of that, except that it seems “wrong” to go without W, since the last time I went was 10 years ago when I introduced her to everyone.

Hmm... “happily married” and yet that’s the longest I’ve ever gone without visiting my ancestral home. We used to go every summer.

So, forget her. Time to make a plan...

Thanks for the idea!

[Twofeet]

If you have time take a train or plane to sud de France. The French Mediterranean is actually pretty nice in Nov. and Dec. and it's the off season for tourists.
Go to Europe, visit your Swiss family, make it happen.

[Ready2Change]

There are times I wish I could just get plastered and go home with someone, anyone. Has been half a year since I felt loved in a way that meant something. I know I'm supposed to love myself, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Hugs from friends and family doesn't quite cut it.

I could use any encouragement people might be able to spare.

There is plenty of time for that later. Keep focusing on your personal growth.

If you need physical touch, go get a 90 minute massage 1 time a week. Go to different massage people.

Pedicure's are nice as well.

[Phoenix9]

Still have that "stuck" feeling and I'm going to have to bring this up with IC and probably talk to my doctor about increasing dose of AD meds.

There are times I wish I could just get plastered and go home with someone, anyone. Has been half a year since I felt loved in a way that meant something. I know I'm supposed to love myself, but that doesn't seem to be happening. Hugs from friends and family doesn't quite cut it.

I could use any encouragement people might be able to spare.

I’m right beside you, brother. The best advice I can give you right now is to just. Keep. Going. One minute at a time. That’s really the only choice you have. Keep going. Don’t stop. Everyone is telling us it gets better as time goes on.

Believe what they say.

((((Burned))))

[equalzr]

Hang in there Burned. Im on the other side of the mountain finally, and i could care less now. It took a couple major things that my WW did to me, but I finally realized "what exactly am I waiting on her for"...she has been a monster. Its over and im done! No matter how it happens, time will take care of this for you one way or another. Right now, GAL!

You hang in there and take care of yourself. She should be fighting for you, not the other way around.

[burned]

Bad to worse today. My job is now in jeopardy and I may have to quit to save face.

Something I saw on another thread:

she is going to D you. Now you have two choices, you can go out like an alpha male or you can go out like a beta male. Which choice do you think has a better chance at recon?

Could use some advice on how to make this happen. Parents and IC are in agreement that I need to just file. Because she has had the upper hand the entire time. Going dark has only made her more assertive, and I worry that she sees me as weak and avoidant. I don't feel much better than I did a month ago.

This is a giant train wreck. I need to take control somehow.

[neffer]

Hey man, you are in control of your life. Ease your mind about it. Let W free, this will set you free too. Do really try to detach, don´t expect anything. Don´t mind read. Going dark means leaving the dark mutual spaces you share with W, physically and spiritually. You stand for yourself, with a clear mind state, facing your future.

Be there. It takes time, be patient. Set you free.

Sending you a big (((((((((hug))))))))) B!

We are here with you.

[SteveLW]

Let W free, this will set you free too.

So true. burned, neffer is giving you a head shot here of epic proportions.

[Phoenix9]

Burned,

What do you have control of?

[burned]

At times I feel like she's intentionally roping me back in, in this weird sort of way that I can't quite put my finger on. But maybe that's just me projecting. In my mind she's a monster who destroyed the life we built together, for no particular reason except her own happiness. Was she really that miserable with me? Was I really that blind? Then I realize that she's really not roping me back in. I really mean nothing to her after everything I've done for her. I'm a nuisance that is getting in between her and her dreams. If only I'd help her with the D paperwork, SHE could finally be free.

Sorry to disappoint. I'll keep trying but I don't really feel like I've made much progress since August. I still blame all of my problems on everyone else. There's a long road ahead of me.

[SteveLW]

At times I feel like she's intentionally roping me back in, in this weird sort of way that I can't quite put my finger on.

She is. And this will continue as you get better at attachment. WASs hate to lose control of their LBS, even as they are walking away from them.

[burned]

WASs hate to lose control of their LBS, even as they are walking away from them.

^^^this. I need to understand this. Because on the surface all of her actions are just things you would do to get away from your H. But there's just this weird sort of flavor to it that feels manipulative, or confused, or ambivalent, or hostile. I really just don't know if that's all in my head. And the minute I catch myself missing her, I remind myself that this version of her is just atrocious. But THEN I doubt THAT and start thinking, well, she's not THAT atrocious, she is saying polite things as she slowly bleeds me out. It's like she wants me to vanish, but she wants to hurt me first. And again, somehow I can't figure out if that's in my head or if that's her goal or if I'm reading too much into it or if everything everyone else said was right, that she's a manipulative martyr who has such a hollow sense of self that this is the ONLY way she can cope.

It's crazy making.

[burned]

link to new thread

[Ready2Change]

Could use some advice on how to make this happen.....go out like an alpha male....

I can not claim to be an Alpha male, but I can claim to be a dominate male.

If I found out my woman was having an affair with another man, I would not be happy about it, but I would not tolerate one part of it. I would happily help her pack her stuff up and send her out the door to be with OM. I would file for D. Anyone asks, I would reply "It ran it's course."

I would make it absolutely clear that she is not welcome back. "I will not share my woman with any man" "I do not want to be with a woman that does not want to be with me"


IF SHE started begging be to take her back, I would be very hesitant and first insist on a "I am ending all contact text,email,letter"....lots more I would do, but that is where I would start.