Link to previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2808078#Post2808078Hey guys, here's my weekend update:
W talked when she came home. She's been seeing her IC for 2 weeks now. We had a long talk about her issues and confusion. W's IC told her she doesn't need to be with anyone right now. I laughed b/c my sister said something similar a while back.
W thinks she wants to go to MC. Thinks she still misses me a lot and that she no longer hates me like she did 6 months ago. Said she always loved me.
She said something like we start as friends. I was like "I won't be your friend". I also told her I won't get involved again without MC. She meant like going slow I guess. So I'm going to do my best to keep up my GAL, not let my wall down, and just stay the course here.
Big problem is that she doesn't think it was wrong to go get a OM. So I'm pretty pissed about this. Not sure what to do. Obviously I'm going to bring it up in MC. I think she, her friends and parents have convinced themselves that it was OK b/c they don't want to believe she could mess up like this. I'm just wondering how that works. "I didn't cheat on my husband, I cheated on my boyfriend - with my husband"....*barf*
I'd appreciate all advice and am just planning to go real slow and take my time to think about what I really want here.
Thank you for linking your threads!
You're welcome job, one of these days I want you to post something in my thread!!!!!!
(And not just the generic responses!!!!)
A couple nights ago W woke me up in the middle of the night and weaseled her way into my arms. You could say I didn't put up much of a fight.
I surprised W and pursued a bit last evening by calling her on her way home from work. Wow. She said "You called..." and I said "Yes, I did". We talked for 20 minutes and she said she was glad I called. I was dropping the puppy off for her and she kissed me on the cheek and gave me a hug. So in the middle of the night she decided to snuggle again. OK, I'm fine with that.
Her folks came over last night to talk to her. They ate dinner at the house with W. I was at softball and not there. They have serious boundary issues (wonder why their kids do too) and want to be involved with, and know everything that's going on with W and me. W told me she doesn't want to tell them anything. So I told her to tell them that. And of course they asked what is going on and she told them she didn't want to talk about it. They reminded her that they are her parents, I'm sure she had forgotten....
I surprised her again with a phone call this morning to say hello. She said "You called" and that she was glad I called. So that's good.
We'll be in MC this week or next, going to set the appointment today.
Well, softball is over for me now, need to find a basketball league for one weeknight. Going to stay busy, stay in IC for now. I may go back and reread the chapters for people who aren't in the LRT stage. I'm not really sure where I should be, but I'm going to just make a point of not hiding/blunting the truth, being clear about what I want and what my boundaries are, work on my communication b/c we had plenty of communication issues, and be myself above all else.
Her dad called her last week to ask her if it was OK if he hunted with me if I called him about it. She told him she thought it was OK. I thought that was funny.
Parents tend to want to know what is going on because they sense things aren't right and want to try to fix the problem or understand what is going on. They mean well, but they need to allow the couple to work things out on their own. Your wife's response was more than adequate. If and when she is ready to tell them anything, she will.
You've been doing well in giving her some space and not pressuring her. Hopefully in MC one of you can mention "boundaries and how to set them". Her parents are going to push her for answers and she's no where ready to open up.
Yes, it was funny that her father called her to ask about hunting with you. She's not your mother! LOL! Any way, don't be surprised if he raises the issue of what is going on w/you.
"I didn't cheat on my husband, I cheated on my boyfriend - with my husband"....*barf*
Lol my WW had an issue and got in big fight with OM because he found out we were still messing around. Apparently they had an agreement that they both wouldn't sleep with their S. F'ed up mindset right?
Ovr, iirc you have been doing the back-and-forth with WW. MC is progress. But do you have any ground rules? Transparency plans? Things like that. You probably do and didn't mention them here. But I know that if I were in your sitch and things moved in that direction I'd be so excited that I'd probably overlook some of that, at my own peril...
Hi Ovrrnbw, it sounds like you and your wife are making progress towards reconciliation. It's such a long, slow, hard process. I really hope you and your wife can stay together. It would have been easier for you to file for divorce and move on but you hung in there and now you're starting to see results. I hope you'll keep us posted!
OMG Job I missed your post until today! Haha wow I'm so pissed at myself!!!
But thank you for those words. The inlaws definitely want to know and want to help. That's who they are as people. But they also know no boundaries. W just doesn't want to tell them anything right now. She's made that clear to me. I may remind FIL of that if he brings anything up again b/c the pressure doesn't work on this lady. W and her family's boundaries have always been more of an "open borders" policy, unless one of the kids was doing something bad in which case they'd hide it.
FIL asked me on the phone "I guess you guys are getting along better now?". I was thinking dude, I didn't run her off the last 4 times she came home. But they probably want to blame me for everything anyways, oh well.
Ground rules are: no OM/OW in our lives. Commitment to each other. Honesty and openness. MC. Dates and fun.
We went to get pizza the other night and saw the new Halloween movie. Had a dinner date last weekend. Both were fun. I went shopping with her (holy "Acts of Service" love language). No kissing or sex, no ILY's, but we hold each other in bed most nights and worked on some stuff at the house.
FIrst MC session tomorrow morning, wish me luck.
Had a really good weekend, built an entry table together. Cleaned and organized the garage and added some cool furniture out there. Had a serious talk Saturday morning with W (initiated by W), I listened and let her get out a lot of thoughts. It [censored] b/c I had more I wanted to say but she wanted to end the convo, so we ended it at that point. In-laws are putting the pressure on W to bring them up to speed on everything. W doesn't want to. I told her that her parents don't tell her everything about their relationship, you don't have to tell theme everything about yours.
I asked W if she'd drop me off at mass b/c she wanted to go shopping Sunday, and she volunteered to go to mass with me. That made me pretty happy b/c she isn't a real religious person (not that I am, but I like to go to mass sometimes).
We drank coffee together both mornings and just enjoyed fall.
Awesome ovr! Let us know how MC goes. I need to do an update related to that.
Ovr, we are in somewhat similar situations. W and I just started MC.
As difficult as it may be, I am trying to focus on her needs and her reasons for leaving. There will be time to address my pain "later" ... if I am fortunate enough to be given the opportunity for a "later."
Trying to listen and understand without judgment, without expectations for any particular outcome.
Trying to internalize this frame of mind:
- accept her emotional reality;
- affirm that I understand how my words and actions led to her emotional reality;
- celebrate her courage for willing to sit, talk, and enter into a vulnerable state despite her fears and distrust.
Patience, I tell myself and I tell you. At each session, my only goal is to defuse any pressures and fears so that she will be willing to meet for a next session. She is a precious, fragile rose that cannot be forced to open up to me. If she chooses to trust me again, it will be on her own terms.
Over
Just caught up on your thread
I must say I was pleasantly surprised
Things are so much better
Parents can be extra nosy because they care
But that does not mean it helps
As you know I have had to keep my parents at arms length during this period
It hurts them but it just has to be that way right now
Curious to know how MC went
Do you think it helps at this stage
If it helps the great
If it does not then consider pushing your timeframe back
Healing takes time and think MC can be counterproductive if both parties are not ready
High five to you
I am really happy for you
First MC session went well but now I have another dilemna.
W had the day off yesterday b/c the kids she watches were sick. Said she was going to go to TJ Max, Here Today.
I think she also said she went to a friend's yesterday. I just got around to looking at the car app today. Looks like her car was parked in a parking lot by OM's parent's house, which is also by OM's apt. OM may have been moving back to his parents' house, but she was at OM's parents' house for a while during the height of the affair. So this is concerning.
I also called her in the later afternoon and she didn't answer.
I called her once earlier afternoon and we talked on the phone for a couple minutes. W was asking about going to my mom's house with me last night. W wanted to know if she was invited by my Mom. This was about the same time her car was parked, according to the app. Even the day before, W was considering going or not so why would she be asking if she already had plans with OM?
I hate playing super sleuth. I hate this feeling of uncertainty. My strategy before was if she wanted the OM again that really there was nothing I could do about so don't go snooping and worrying to death. If she left, I'd know it. And last night, she came home.
The other dilemna I have is that W is adamant about it not being an affair. She keeps going back to "I was done. I was planning on a divorce". I'm to the point where telling the truth and being firm doesn't help b/c it just leads to the same argument. For those that have been following, W never moved out, never separated finances, exploited me financially, and is now on her 5th "try" with me. Every time she stopped "trying" it was with a lie, a deception, or not a peep. Are we here again? And if we are what will I do? I see no point in confronting it yet, b/c what am I going to do if she did see OM?
A few days ago, I told W that we may not see my mom for Thanksgiving b/c she may not want to be around us (specifically my W). W was telling my how my mom is wrong for not wanting to see her. She brings up my Mom's divorce and how she thinks my mom had an affair. I don't know if my Mom did or not but I've never asked. And even if my Mom did, it doesn't justify W doing it as well.
So the takeaway is that W wants her life to go back to easy street and sweep everything under the rug. Everything her and her counselor talk about is about other people and how they have screwed up. Her counselor told her it's not an affair, W said. W has not focused on any of her wrongdoings yet. Well I'm sure W isn't telling the truth, but oh well, it's out of my hands.
W think the MC is not good and wants to find a new one. W's IC said that the MC may not be neutral. So W wants to find a new MC. She also brought up seeing the priest who married us b/c we did have some great pre marriage meetings with him. I have a message out to him.
I think I need to go back to keeping my feelings to myself. W does seem to appreciate some pursuit - for example I turned on her heated seat for her. She even said she wants to be taken care of. OK. A few weeks ago she sounded pleasantly surprised that I had called her on her commute to work in the AM. She is wanting to be held and hugged. I've been helping her when she asks to do a project around the house and trying to make it fun. I've been going shopping with her. We haven't kissed, and she hasn't been wearing her ring all the time but sometimes. I asked her about it, but I'm going to stop that.
Good Lord I wrote a book!!!! And I was all over the place, so thanks to all that read it.
ovrr, I haven't read your whole thread, just these two pages. you mentioned in page one on some post you're working on R? from the two page posts, doesnt seem like that to me. your W seem's to be doing what my EXW did, just going with the flow... Also, In my humble opinion, om or no om, wife will make her own decision to work on R or not. The tracker is only hurting YOU, guard yourself and take care of yourself, the less you know, the better. I'll try to read all your thread but from the two pages, those are my thoughts for now.
cheesy
OK for an FYI, this "try" she has been home since Oct 14. She brought up the R on Oct 14 and said she wanted to work on it, I laid out the boundaries (MC, no OM, communication, fun/dates) and we moved forward from there.
I think she also said she went to a friend's yesterday. I just got around to looking at the car app today. Looks like her car was parked in a parking lot by OM's parent's house, which is also by OM's apt. OM may have been moving back to his parents' house, but she was at OM's parents' house for a while during the height of the affair. So this is concerning.
Well, she said she was going to a friend's, and she considers OM a "friend", so I'm sure she thinks that technically she didn't do anything wrong. Who thinks like that? A wayward wife, that's who.
I also called her in the later afternoon and she didn't answer.
Red alert.
I hate playing super sleuth. I hate this feeling of uncertainty. My strategy before was if she wanted the OM again that really there was nothing I could do about so don't go snooping and worrying to death. If she left, I'd know it. And last night, she came home.
Well part of DB'ing is we say not to snoop because the info you gather can be very confusing and easily misunderstood. But in piecing when a former cheater is involved it's not unusual for the LBS to demand full phone access and vehicle tracking. That would be controlling in a normal relationship, but recovering from cheating requires some pretty drastic measures so the WAS can rebuild trust with the LBS. I suspect your W would never allow such access, which is a red flag in itself.
I see no point in confronting it yet, b/c what am I going to do if she did see OM?
That is the real question, what will you do. I don't care if she says they are just friends, if I'm married I would not accept my W going and hanging out with an opposite sex "friend" at his house, ESPECIALLY if she's not telling me about it. So assuming it happened, what would you do? Figure that out first, then confront her about it and be prepared to take whatever action that is. If and when you confront her, don't tell her how you know. It's enough that you know. If you tell her how then she will A) make you out to be the bad guy for snooping and B) go deeper undercover, like turn her phone off so you can't track her.
hijacking for a second,
so nice to see gordie and anoherstander still around. hi guys!
on part 3 of your story ovrr. trying to catch up! hang in there
-cheesy
Thanks Cheesy and AS.
I've "been through the ringer" on all of this. So I am not that worried. It would suck if she snuck off to see OM, but I'm so over it at this point. The only thing that would keep me from filing would be my faith.
MC went OK last night. MC and W kept trying to go to the subject of my mom potentially not wanting my W around for Thanksgiving. My W is all bent out of shape b/c I told her not to expect that we will see her b/c who knows. W just wants easy street, magic wand, and back to marriage I think.
Made W laugh pretty good at MC and listened mostly. Shared too much one time, and pulled back after that.
Meeting with the priest who married us in a couple of weeks, which was a suggestion made by W. Priest is a young guy, but she probably isn't going to like everything he has to say. He used to "call me out" on my BS all the time.
I've "been through the ringer" on all of this. So I am not that worried. It would suck if she snuck off to see OM, but I'm so over it at this point.
As strange as it may sound, that's actually a healthy place to be- that's detached!
W just wants easy street, magic wand, and back to marriage I think.
Yeah, I don't doubt that. Actually I have two friends that let their W's off the hook when they returned. They didn't pressure them for MC or anything like we suggest here (neither one of them knew about DB'ing, their separations took place before my BD so I didn't either). So far both are still doing fine with their wives. Maybe the timer is counting down to BD #2 but it seems like their W's just went through something temporary, a sort of mini-MLC. Anyway not saying to change what you're doing, but your comment got me to thinking about that.
so nice to see gordie and anoherstander still around. hi guys!
WHASSSSUUUP Cheesy!
Hi Ovrrnbw, I'm glad to see there's progress with your wife! Even if she visited OM it sounds like the visits have become less. She probably has lingering feelings for him or maybe wants to stay friends with him but hopefully that'll fizzle out. If she decides to stay with you then we can assume at some point OM himself will want to move on. My experience when my husband came back the first time was that he didn't want to talk about his affair at all. He wanted to come back easily and I think he wanted to put everything behind him and move on but it's not easy for those of us who have been betrayed to just forget. At first it's amazing when our spouses come back home and seem like they're ending their affair but over time we realize how much has changed in terms of the trust and respect we have for our spouse. It sounds like you're taking the right steps and you're making conditions favorable for your wife to return which is what we all want. It's worth just checking in with yourself each time she visits OM or does something suspicious to determine where you'll draw the line.
Ovr, as I was catching up on your sitch at one point, I was pleasantly surprised to see you may actually be R. Your W is still as inconsistent as they come though. But wanting to go to MC is a great sign according to me, she at least wants to or show that she is trying. You are strong in your DBing and it is getting to her. She however is still as lost , so continue on your path and make your own life better. It is great to see your efforts are consistent and you are not on her roller coaster anymore. I do hope the A is over for her, but you know by now, keep your boundaries so you are not hurt any further than this.
Hey I have a question for everyone.
I got a call from SIL on Saturday. Then again SIL called yesterday. I didn't answer or return either b/c she has lied to me several times on important issues over the years, she supported W's affair, and she sympathized with the affair partner and threw me under the bus. She told W to file for divorce and bring OM to her parents for a holiday weekend. I know all of this through text messages on W's phone back in July and August/September. So I don't really have anything to say to SIL right now.
W asked me to talk to SIL both last night and this morning. I avoided talking to W about it last night, and this morning told her no. SIL is calling in regards to a question in my professional field, but she could get this info from anyone. So now FIL calls me to ask me to call SIL. I told him I can't help her, I'm not licensed in her state anymore, and that anything between us is between me and SIL. I guess I don't understand the family pressure tactic or why SIL would even want to ask me these things. Maybe things need to be aired out with W's family.
Also I'm annoyed at the in laws family yacking like crazy. Which is one reason I hate to say to much to W, because then her whole family knows. My question is how do I handle this?
Go to your boundaries that you have established and are continuing to establish. Yackers are going to yack. Whether you tell them or not. If you want to reduce your chances of them gossiping, I would reduce or cut off contact with your IL's friends and associates.
Other than that, I would just work on letting it bounce off you.
Your IL sound sneaky and backstabbish. How would you protect yourself from getting hurt by those kinds of people?
I agree with Pain18. I too would have little time for gossiping in-laws who are only interested in talking to me when I have something of value they need.
I wouldn't avoid her entirely though or pass messages through W or FIL. Things get lost or exaggerated in translation.
If and when SIL tries to call you back, don't pick up, but send her back a text (after an appropriate time) along the lines of "Hi - got your message. I am sorry I am not able to help you. I am not licensed in your state. I suggest contacting [some random enquiry number or website] if you need advice in this area". She won't contact you again. Your IL's will probably have a field day at your expense but f' em.
Also, who gets their dad to call on their behalf? Are these people not adults ?
Figured I'd get in on the holiday misery.
W and I argued last night about her SIL. W was treating me like cap and saying selfish things at dinner, so I looked at our car app. Imagine that, she went to OM (parents) 's house the Tuesday night. I was worried she did that on Saturday too bc she left the lake house early when her mom didn't she and it was just guys there. She did visit OM on Saturday.
Well W didn't sleep in the MBR last night, oh well. W brought up legal separation last night. I said do what you want. W tells me today she's not going to my dad's today and I shouldn't go to her parents Friday either. I should have said OK and walked away but I talked. What a dummy I am.
I spoke with my in laws today, send all 2 x 4 my way. I was able to understand a couple of things that have been troubling my W:
1. When I told my W her parents are in denial of what W is doing.
2. W took my "2 wrongs don't make a right" statement the wrong way, as if I were attacking her. Given my behavioral
history, this makes sense.
3. Maybe I could have talked to my SIL
So I spent too much time there. Major backslide, in some ways it was good to hear what the in laws said. We'll see if W moves out or what happens. She's a WW so probably nothing will change. I told in laws W has flip flopped 5 times now on me, going back to the OM with a lie or by saying nothing. They don't like that, but up until today they didn't know that W left again after our Florida trip around labor day. The in laws mostly blame me for everything. I say this so that others can learn from my mistakes and leave the in laws be.
I saw a great post on IG today that said life isn't always ice cream and orgasms but you are in charge of your attitude and mindset. Attitude is contagious and mindset is everything. Choose happiness. Choose positivity. This is where I am going, just not sure when the next orgasm will be
haha.
Wow man,
Even when things appear to be on the upswing, you're having to work for every step forward. And even then THAT journey is jagged.
I feel that you have gained a considerable amount of strength in this. To be able to talk about youir latest developments and be as positive as you are right now is a testament to the type of person you are becoming.
Hi Ovrrnbw,
I'm so sorry to hear of these latest developments. Your wife sounds young and immature so it seems there's no quick fix to this situation. She did come back to you and she'll probably do it again, even if she once again wants to leave, but this back-and-forth is a big hardship for you and the way you make it so easy for her to come back may be enabling her behavior. Her family doesn't sound like they're helping matters. One thing I can't understand after reading your threads is if there's something you think you could have done better in the marriage? If her family blames you and if your wife feels so free to come-and-go, what's the role you believe you've played? And how closely does that role match what they're blaming you for? I doubt you've done anything wrong but it's interesting to hear how someone's family is so gullible that they'd blame their daughter's husband when their own daughter is having an affair. It's a no-win situation for you!
No, the in laws are right. I did a lot of emotional abuse. Berating, nitpicking, nothing was ever done right or good enough for me. Learned that from my dad unfortunately. Totally pushed my wife away and we weren't intimate or sexual like a healthy couple should be. My W did fight for the marriage for a while but I don't think she knew what the heck was going on or how to deal with it. There probably wasn't much she could do.
W has said that she doesn't hate me anymore.
Maybe I did make it too easy for her to come back. I still have things to improve on and learn from.
She is not back Over, you know that. It’s good to acknowledge your mistakes (yeah, see who’s saying it...) and improve yourself. So you need to reinforce DB man. Get away from those talks with SIL or ILs.
Keep moving forward Over!
Hi Ovrrnbw,
You may have berated or nitpicked your wife but you've also only been married for a short time and it's a big adjustment the first few years going from being single to dating to engaged to married. Sometimes it takes a while for a husband and wife to adapt to one another and to learn how to avoid behaviors that'll bother or provoke the other. We're all like that to some degree. Nothing that you describe would justify your wife having an affair. An affair is just wrong no matter what. You've endured a lot already. How much more do you feel you can endure while your wife does these things? Just like most of us you sound committed to rebuilding the marriage but I guess sometimes it just doesn't happen fast and there's no guarantee that it'll work. Perhaps you can plan for both scenarios - for your wife coming back again and for moving on if she doesn't. You're still young and you have no kids so it'd be fairly easy for you to start over with another woman when the time is right. It's worth keeping that in mind! If you spend another ten years in turmoil with your wife, knowing she has these tendencies even if she comes back, you might find yourself divorced with kids and at that point it's not quite so easy to bounce back like it would be now. It's worth considering both short and long-term prospects.
Ovr, you have suggested more than once that you like my advice, so I wanted to let you know that I'm making my way here. I started at the beginning of your sitch, but I'm only on thread two (I'm a slow reader). So I'll be back, and hopefully with something good to add! ... so far you remind me a lot of my H, so this should be interesting ...
If you have not read NMMNG, then order it today! :-)
Blu
Hey guys, thanks for responding! I was definitely worked up on Thanksgiving but have settled down. Hung with my sister Friday, watched college football and started rereading DR. Left at 1:00 AM Sunday morning on 1 day hunting trip, which was a ton of fun.
It’s good to acknowledge your mistakes (yeah, see who’s saying it...) and improve yourself.
I think this was self deprecation, but I'm not sure what you meant!
Nicole, my behavior wasn't unfortunately any different before our engagement and was just as abhorrent when we were dating.
You're still young and you have no kids so it'd be fairly easy for you to start over with another woman when the time is right. It's worth keeping that in mind! If you spend another ten years in turmoil with your wife, knowing she has these tendencies even if she comes back, you might find yourself divorced with kids and at that point it's not quite so easy to bounce back like it would be now.
I've thought about this and plenty of my friends and family have mentioned it as well. I just am not ready to file. I've thought about it more in the last few days, but I'm still emotional over this whole deal. Plus I want to honor my vows. Part of me feels like I owe her and I owe the marriage because I contributed the lion's share of the downfall. Plus my religious views aren't permissive of divorce either. I think the Church's view on it is there to reinforce the notion that 2 people can make it work whenever they want to. The flip side being that it will take her effort if this is ever to change.
Blu, thanks for stopping in!! I saw you and Cheesy both in my thread! I do enjoy the tenured folks here as much as the newbies like myself.
My latest dilemma comes in the following forms
1. I told FIL a week or two back (you know, when things were just MARVELOUS!) that I'd help him on his boat. He needs me there to help chain up his boat and lift it in the air with his bobcat for the aluminum welder to work on. On Thursday of last week, FIL and MIL showed how insensitive they are to my suffering and my family's suffering over this and my W took off back to OM's house. I haven't confirmed her location at OM's house (excuse me, OM's parent's house) b/c I haven't looked at our car's app - because I generally am trying to not snoop - but I'd bet my butt that's where she ran off.
FIL called last night and asked me to meet him at his lake house 2.5 hours away to help him on Tuesday. I told him OK, since I did agree to it. But it just feels like garbage b/c FIL doesn't really give a crap about me, what his daughter/my W is doing.
2. W suggested we meet with the priest who married us instead of a MC, so a couple weeks back we set an appointment to meet with him. That appointment is tomorrow night. We both had great growth and conversations in our monthly get togethers with the priest when we were engaged for 12 months, which is why W wanted to meet with him. I want to remind W that this was her idea and that appointment is tomorrow. I'm pretty sure, but not positive, that W has it on her calendar. Advice on this is appreciated. My logical and DB mind tell me to say nothing, that she'll say "no thanks" and realize that I'm still on the hook.
W called me and texted 3 times early Saturday. I didn't answer the call. She texted about bills drafting from her/our joint account. So I wrote a check and texted the picture to her for my half of those bills and said nothing. She has mobile deposit and can deposit it that way. Saturday evening, she texted me to ask if I was home. I responded "no". We were supposed to have the inlaws (FIL, MIL, SIL, SIL's fiancee) over Saturday so I went out and about.
When I got home from our trip yesteday, W, SIL, and SIL's fiancee were there. I don't know what they were doing and didn't ask. W said one or two small things before quickly leaving, and forgetting to leave the garage door open for me. W's memory has gotten horrible since BD, it used to be really good. Then W texts me yesterday "I planted the plants". The plants were ones we bought 3 weeks back that didn't make it in the ground right away. I had already noticed she did this. I didn't respond, but I screenshotted it to my sister because W is trying to have these "normal" conversations with me and it's just BS in my opinion.
Another book from Over!
Ask yourself what do you want to do. Then go one way or the other. Cool, calm and collected. Expectations stored in the freezer if you get together to talk with the priest. You are walking your road Over, it´s gonna be her loss.
Still looking for advice but Mrs. Over just texted to ask when the meeting with the priest is and if I was still wanting to go. I just llloooovvveee the consistent inconsistency. It brings my life excitement, pure excitement. Never know what today has in store....
Still looking for advice but Mrs. Over just texted to ask when the meeting with the priest is and if I was still wanting to go. I just llloooovvveee the consistent inconsistency. It brings my life excitement, pure excitement. Never know what today has in store....
You're a very patient person, sir.
Ovr,
Couple of things and they are all going to sound harsh....
Blood is thicker than water. Unfortunately, in most cases a parent is going to put their child above the child's spouse regardless if the child is in the wrong. Its selfish, stupid, and being ignorant of their daughters terrible behavior/choices, but she is their daughter and you are just the guy who married her.
I don't know how strong your wife is in the Catholic faith, but the church teaches that while a man and woman can divorce civilly, in God's eyes that covenant cannot be broken by man. Neither of you will be able to remarry in the Catholic church, and it is considered a mortal sin to do so without an annulment or upon the death of the spouse. Also if your wife is with OM, ie committed adultry, she cannot receive the Eucharist, both actions are mortal sins. It's even a sin for a priest to knowingly administer the eucharist to an adulterer. Hopefully, if your priest is worth his salt he can shock her with this info. These are hard truths and are things I am personally struggling with deeply.
Hi Ovrrnbw, how did it go with the priest? Does the priest know your wife is having an affair? I hope it went well and led to a productive conversation!
Still looking for advice but Mrs. Over just texted to ask when the meeting with the priest is and if I was still wanting to go. I just llloooovvveee the consistent inconsistency. It brings my life excitement, pure excitement. Never know what today has in store....
Yes, That is the harder part to deal with as a LBS. One minute, "I want a D". The next they talk about staying together. The next they have one foot out the door.
I've told this story before. In my sitch, on a Friday night about a month in I told my W I wouldn't even consider staying together without full transparency. Meaning I had full access to her smart phone, email, computer, etc. She immediately told me "Ok then I need to work on my resume." The next day she spent half the day working on her resume. And then she came into the livingroom and tearfully talked to me about how she knew D was wrong, that God hated it, that she wanted to want to stay and keep the family together. It seemed like a real breakthrough.
4 days later I found a full profile, complete with picture and a long paragraph about her current sitch (still married but definitely going to D, so she couldn't date now but wanted to see what was available and would be able to date at a later date).
Roller-coaster goes up.....roller-coaster goes down.............
Yes, That is the harder part to deal with as a LBS. One minute, "I want a D". The next they talk about staying together. The next they have one foot out the door.
I've told this story before. In my sitch, on a Friday night about a month in I told my W I wouldn't even consider staying together without full transparency. Meaning I had full access to her smart phone, email, computer, etc. She immediately told me "Ok then I need to work on my resume." The next day she spent half the day working on her resume. And then she came into the livingroom and tearfully talked to me about how she knew D was wrong, that God hated it, that she wanted to want to stay and keep the family together. It seemed like a real breakthrough.
4 days later I found a full profile, complete with picture and a long paragraph about her current sitch (still married but definitely going to D, so she couldn't date now but wanted to see what was available and would be able to date at a later date).
Roller-coaster goes up.....roller-coaster goes down.............
Cripes man, I'm starting to see the same behaviors from my W. Not the same "I'm leaving" or "I'm staying" stuff, just...inconsistent behavior.
Ovr, your WW is full of turmoil. She has no clue what she wants. Do you really think talking to the priest will help in anyway? Would it be her way of justifying how she tried and it still did not help? Or do you think she is looking for direction and she is actually in a frame of mind where it may help? I am sure she isnt planning to bring up OM during this discussion with the priest, what are you planning to learn/gain from talking to the priest?
Ovr, as promised.
That was a lot. I read every thread and post. You have some great posters and advice. It was hard to read tho, especially over a couple of days span, because the roller-coaster kept jerking back and forth, upwards, and sideways. Ouch. At one point I started grinding my teeth, I gasped, and I might have even yelled out at you. "No! What are you doing, man!?!" You do remind me of my H tho. You seem very kind, humble and generous. You guys could be co-chairs of the Mr Nice Guy club. Fortunately for me, he has worked his way out of being a total doormat, and so I have learned to respect him ... This is hard work, Ovr. It takes a long time of self reflection and committing to changes. It is much harder to do when you allow someone to jerk you around and abuse you. I think it may be impossible.
I have a hundred observations and opinions about your W. She undoubtedly has a lot of work to do on herself too, growing up to do (she has the mentality of a teenager), and she is an abusive person. I hope for her own sake at some point in her life she is willing to look at herself and start tackling some deeply flawed issues. I sort of pity her, because people like that ultimately miss out on genuine and mature love. She is not capable of that right now. I just don't think it will help you or your sitch, for me to dissect her behaviors, or focus on her, so I will hold off on that further. Plus, I am far more interested in you and your goals.
I have some questions for you. I hope you will give them some thought and answer them thoroughly for us. I think it could help all of us understand you and advise you better. Mostly, I think it will benefit you to think hard about them and address them. I am trying to narrow it down, but I do have a lot of questions!
1. How do you envision a healthy marriage and relationship in your life? What does that look like to you?
2. What do you think you have to give to a married partner and what do you think you deserve from a partner?
3. How do you feel about the way your W treats you? How do you think you deserve to be treated by her?
4. How do you think you have taught your W to treat you? How do you think you can change that now?
5. Do you think you are worthy of love and respect? (please don't answer this here, just think about it)
I look forward to reading,
Blu
any update ovr? How was the visit with the priest? and how are things in general?
hi Blu!!!
Hello everyone, thanks for keeping up with my thread. I like to take breaks from posting on my own, and sometimes on the weekends, just to remain sane and go be happy. Here's info and responses to everyone:
Nicole, Sia: My W is not Catholic, not a strong Christian by any means. She does trust the priest who married us, ironically, because he wasn't afraid to tell me I was wrong/misbehaving during our engagement. But she doesn't take communion anyways and we don't go to Mass often. Our meeting with the priest was interesting. His biggest, and most valid point, was how ingrained we are in our fight pattern between us. I am an argumentative person, either by nature or by nurture (my Dad), so I am trying to stay aware of this. I think going to the priest was a positive, because W respects him and likes him.
W's words were clear and direct when dealing with my issues, but indirect and soft when discussing hers. I brought this up, the priest and W talk about this. W says "OK, it's an affair by 'definition' ". Priest says, "and in reality, too". FYI W, SIL, FIL, MIL, and a couple of W's friends say it's not. W didn't like this, and I'm done pressing her to quit running from this reality. She knows, she'll accept it in her own time, or maybe not. It's out of my hands. And for a laugh, my W said before, during, and after this process that she "doesn't believe in divorce".
With the in-laws, I don't plan on discussing my marriage with them anymore. They choose to ignore both of their daughters' misbehaviors, and I am not the person to bring it to their attention. They are going to flip flop and rewrite history so that they can continue believing their girls are angels.
Blu, thanks for reading. I am trying to work on myself every day and fight old, "comfortable" tendencies. I do think W's being abusive is a response to a lot of the things I put her through (emotional, mental abuse, not accepting, respecting, and appreciating her). That's why my situation is so messy IMO. Hopefully, in time, she will take that hard look at herself. I really am not sure what a healthy MR looks like at this point. I could name off the "normal" things. I think what I have to give a partner is a funny question. My initial thoughts go to superficial things: money, cooking, wine, entertainment, looks. My weaknesses, and the casus belli for this whole sitch, is that I stopped being there for her emotionally, as a lover, partner, and friend. I think I focused on the superficial out of fear. I definitely don't like W treating me poorly, although it has improved since the end of August. She doesn't like when she's treating me badly, and doesn't like seeing herself in that light. I have definitely trained her for conflict and abuse, and I change that now by being honest, being fair, dropping the covert contracts and learning how to communicate.
Things in general are OK. W and I are getting along pretty well, working together on a few things, talking often. We went to a wedding Friday, and W spent the whole week stressing because my best friend was going to be there and she thinks he was "talking stuff" about her during the affair. He didn't overdo it IMO, he was only truthful. He also hooked up with OM's sister a year or two back. But she's a barfly and he's sugar to those type of flies. In laws came over for dinner one night during the week.
I was reading in Steve's thread about the intimate kissing and the emotional impact/meaning for women and found that quite interesting. W and I had been giving picks at night and goodbye pecks in the mornings. On Saturday morning, W busted out the Binaca and initiated a makeout session. I thought initially she just wanted sex, but she actually just wanted to make out. And we had a couple more makeout sessions throughout the day. The little affections have increased, and now I'm paying attention. I'm trying to give W those type of affections without the expectation of sex, and to just make her happy. I got W a St. Nick's present (a cheap one)/ So that's where we're at. Saturday and Sunday we went out to eat and walking, shopping in a cool part of town, watched Christmas movies, made pizza, hung out, cuddled up.
Next hurdle: my Mom's bday this week and Christmas.
Thanks for the support, and sorry for another book!
Hi Ovrrnbw,
It sounds like your updates are sort of as one would expect. The fact that you and your wife are attending so many activities together and getting physically close seems very positive. The more you two deepen your connection the less she'll need OM one would assume. I do have a question though. Is it difficult to kiss your wife or go out with her to events knowing she cheated and may not be 100% done with OM? Or you believe she's definitely done with him? This is where I struggled the most when my husband returned the first time. I didn't want to make a fool out of myself knowing he might have some other woman on his mind.
Ovr,
Either I am missing something or this is a huge mess. I am reading that "things in general are OK," that you attended a wedding together and that there are make-out sessions happening. That part I am sure of.
Where is the part where she ended her affair, provided proof of that, is offering transparency, is remorseful for her part in the breakdown of the M, AND where she is saying that she is recommitted to making this work??? Did I miss this somewhere along the way or did none of this actually happen???
Have you read anything that Sandi posts about WWs and their lack of respect for their H? Have you read anything about how to have boundaries and demand respect from other people??? Do you have any respect for yourself? (I am honestly asking)
Seriously, what is going on here?
Because you know what it looks like from this side of the screen? It looks like you have no self worth, no respect from your WW, and you are taking any crumb she throws. You are also teaching her how to treat you (which is to walk all over you). You are also allowing her to blame you for the problems in the M when she is the one HAVING AN AFFAIR!
Look, everyone here has messed up. None of us are perfect and we all contributed to our M problems. ALL OF US HAVE. But allowing her to walk all over you, throw crumbs when she feels like it, and then participating in counseling (where you take responsibility) does you no good, while she is HAVING AN AFFAIR. That is written all over this board and in every thread on here.
Wow. I got myself worked up just writing that. I am not even sure what else to say except, I know that you know this because I have seen you give very good advice to other people. You just refuse to see it in your own sitch. The one that matters most.
I think you need so start over before it's too late. Read all the advice about WW and the rules and actually start applying them if you want to save your M at all.
Blu
Did I miss this somewhere along the way or did none of this actually happen???
She is in denial that it was an affair.. Her parents support her and have always been her moral compass. I've discussed how it is an affair with W and in-laws. They don't want to believe, so they don't. I'm not wasting my breath trying to change their minds. W knows, and I'm not going to pressure her to admit it.
My stated boundaries were: MC, relationship building, respect, openness and honesty, no other people in our lives.
Seriously, what is going on here?
It's a mess. But what do I do? Force an R talk and demand her commitment? When she came back in October I said we can't have other people in our lives, she agreed.
But allowing her to walk all over you
Do you mean she just isn't treating me well?
I think the affair is over. What do I do? Tell her I don't believe it's over? I know she went to OM's at the end of Nov but I am not sure what to do about it. So here I am...
I could wait until we meet the priest again to bring things up so we have someone to help facilitate the conversation.
I need to make a plan of action, but I'm not sure what to do other than get back into MC/priest MC meetings on the regular. Probably stop letting her talk to me like crap which isn't often but she is throwing little fits over small things.
I'm off to reread Sandi's thoughts.
I don't know if I'm going to hear her say she has that true remorse. She still blames me for everything she did.
By continuing on too easily, without requiring full commitment to the marriage, I showed her htat I don't have much respect for myself. I think she is in a "let's see how it goes" mode.
I went back and read Sandi's post about WW's, I think it's the one you were referring to. I so desperately want to believe everything is fine go back to the days where I can let my guard down. That's not happening.
How do I reset the boundaries and respect? How do I demand that "commitment" and get her to be remorseful now that I blew it and let her come back too easy? I do need everyone's help here. Thanks guys and gals.
Hi Ovr, things cannot go back to how they were for certain but MR 2.0 should mean it’s better for both of you. Do you think this is your R? I may be wrong but it feels like there is a lot of sweeping under the rug here. She is far from owning her issues, you are trying to put band aids, my fear is even if you let bygones now how do you know you will not be here a few years down the road again if the big issues are left unresolved? In my opinion R needs true remorse, I have seen where people have said once the WAS snaps out of the fog they won’t even remember how badly they behaved or how they hurt their spouse. For me that is not good enough, after walking through the inferno I need empathy, compassion and true remorse to start R. It may not happen at all but without these wouldn’t the R be shallow? Wouldn’t the LBS spend their life looking over their shoulder? If and when the WAS shows genuine remorse and accepts their mistake without continuing to blame the LBS, that is when the LBS needs to build empathy and forgive to move forward. Your W has no regrets, remorse or the slightest ownership of her mistakes. You cannot continue to carry the burden on both your behalf
I may be wrong in this so please let the other vets chime in. I think you need to call her out on her BS, not confrontational, just matter of fact and let her know you won’t settle for this behavior. It may be pan to the fire but what you have going is not sustainable in the long run. Would you want to have a family with this woman and spend the rest of your life doubting yourself?
As I said, my suggestion may be completely off, my own MR train is almost at the D station, just chew on this and wait for others.
You have superb advice for the newbies so I know that you get these concepts, hugs
Hi Ovrrnbw,
As you might recall I let my husband come back easily the first time so I can relate to your concerns. The thing is, you received a lot of advice saying you shouldn't take your wife back easily but we should still respect your decision. It's an extremely difficult position to be in when you lose your spouse and then you have a chance to have that person back again. The crisis blurs our judgment. You did what you think is best for your situation. You sound like you've accepted quite a bit of the blame for the downfall of the marriage, not that it excuses an affair, but you do seem to have made a lot of realizations about yourself and you've grown from this experience. Perhaps everything will be fine now that your wife is back. Maybe you'll treat your wife better (although I'm sure you weren't that bad) and your wife will also mature and realize how badly she acted and she'll try to be a better committed wife. Maybe you two can put this ordeal behind you after a while, although you may be checking for signs of an affair for many years to come. In the event that this happens again then you'll be more compelled to take stronger action.
In terms of getting your wife to show remorse now - it seems you could put your foot down on all big decisions like making a big joint purchase like buying a house or having kids. You could be less forthcoming with affection, "I love you's," gifts, etc.. for the time being. But you also need to move on and create a new beautiful marriage for the two of you to be happy and want to stay together. I'm not entirely sure you should execute such a strategy but I hope you'll get good direction from various sources.
I can tell you what not do since I made the mistake myself. After my husband came back he kept promising we'd fix everything but then he didn't want to discuss his affair or go to counseling. I started to treat him really badly. I said a lot of terrible things to him. I made him suffer. We still moved on and moved to our dream city, built our dream house, and planned for our future but with this negative undercurrent that caused constant tension. It was clear that the marriage wasn't fixed even though we were back together. I shouldn't have agreed to start building a house and I shouldn't have quit my job to start a business without everything being fixed. I kept thinking everything would get fixed eventually but it never happened and he left again. You don't want to end up like me! It's best to hold off on big next steps until your wife can show true remorse and re-earn your trust.
The biggest warning I'd like to share is how much harder it is to go through this with kids. If you can just imagine how innocent children are, and how they're at the mercy of their parents, and how a broken marriage can hurt a small child, then you'll want to think really seriously about having kids any time soon. I believe your wife is young so you could safely wait for many years to see if the marriage is stable before you have kids. There's never 100% guarantee something won't go wrong, but I recommend doing everything humanly possibly to avoid bringing an innocent baby into this world if the marriage isn't fully repaired.
I hope everything will turn out well for you and your wife. This is still a fragile situation but it sounds like you're actively thinking about how to best proceed and hopefully it'll work out!
Hi Ovr, things cannot go back to how they were for certain but MR 2.0 should mean it’s better for both of you. Do you think this is your R? I may be wrong but it feels like there is a lot of sweeping under the rug here. She is far from owning her issues, you are trying to put band aids, my fear is even if you let bygones now how do you know you will not be here a few years down the road again if the big issues are left unresolved? In my opinion R needs true remorse, I have seen where people have said once the WAS snaps out of the fog they won’t even remember how badly they behaved or how they hurt their spouse. For me that is not good enough, after walking through the inferno I need empathy, compassion and true remorse to start R. It may not happen at all but without these wouldn’t the R be shallow? Wouldn’t the LBS spend their life looking over their shoulder? If and when the WAS shows genuine remorse and accepts their mistake without continuing to blame the LBS, that is when the LBS needs to build empathy and forgive to move forward. Your W has no regrets, remorse or the slightest ownership of her mistakes. You cannot continue to carry the burden on both your behalf
I may be wrong in this so please let the other vets chime in. I think you need to call her out on her BS, not confrontational, just matter of fact and let her know you won’t settle for this behavior. It may be pan to the fire but what you have going is not sustainable in the long run. Would you want to have a family with this woman and spend the rest of your life doubting yourself?
As I said, my suggestion may be completely off, my own MR train is almost at the D station, just chew on this and wait for others.
You have superb advice for the newbies so I know that you get these concepts, hugs
This! So much this! Thank you, Sia.
I firmly believe that in order to have a genuine M, both people must be willing to look at themselves, be willing to change, and have remorse for the pain they have caused. I see this from you, but she seems far from even admitting to what she has done. She has given you no reason to trust her. So while you might be able to do some patchwork here and there and get her into counseling, she does not yet have an open heart. SHE IS STILL WAYWARD! Sure you have made your mistakes, we all have. That does not entitle her to have an affair. And she hasn't even admitted to it? We all teach people how to treat us. How do you want to be treated by your W? I ask you again, how do you think you deserve to be treated?
Some posters here think they can come here, follow the rules, and somehow win their S back. Their only focus is that if their M is restored, they will somehow have a better life. That is not how life works! Life is what WE make of it. They also are so internally wounded they refuse to see their reality. Truth is, you cannot force someone to love you or respect you. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! Don't you guys want to be in a M where you are loved and respected? Isn't that what M is about? Having someone physically there is not a real partnership.
We can only control ourselves in this and let them go if they are not good to us. She is not good to you, ovr! As you let her go, and then become a stronger and more resilient individual, you will realize how you deserve to be treated. Hopefully then you will accept nothing less. My vote: kick her to the curb. Man up and focus on overrnbow 2.0! Become a man only a fool would leave! Down the road, if and only if, she shows you a woman that is remorseful and committed to you, then you can consider if you want her back.
Blu
Some posters here think they can come here, follow the rules, and somehow win their S back. Their only focus is that if their M is restored, they will somehow have a better life. That is not how life works! Life is what WE make of it. They also are so internally wounded they refuse to see their reality. Truth is, you cannot force someone to love you or respect you. THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE! Don't you guys want to be in a M where you are loved and respected? Isn't that what M is about? Having someone physically there is not a real partnership.
I needed to hear this today. Thank you!
Cheers ovr, been catching up on your sitch. Seems like W is not sure in her inconsistent actions. My suggestion is you keep DBing like a mad man and become AMOAFWL. I see a lot of good posts from you offering your knowledge to a lot of newbies. Keep up the great work !! Blessings!
Hello and thanks for helping me out everyone. I realize I am not seeing things in my sitch because I am emotionally motivated not to see them, or that I am afraid of acting how I know I should because I am scared of running of my W.
I am/was sweeping things under the rug. I would tell my W when she was being disrespectful, which was too often. She obviously is not fully committed or else she'd be worried about how I feel about things and finding a way to problem solve together instead of being negative and combative.
Your W has no regrets, remorse or the slightest ownership of her mistakes. You cannot continue to carry the burden on both your behalf
I may be wrong in this so please let the other vets chime in.
I'd like to hear more opinions on this. I have forgiven myself and I am not harboring a ton of resentment of her affair, though it's not like it doesn't upset me.
That does not entitle her to have an affair. And she hasn't even admitted to it?
No it doesn't, she is still running from the repercussions of her own actions. Her parents are still enabling her in this, telling her it wasn't an affair. We weren't even separated by W's standards.
Their only focus is that if their M is restored, they will somehow have a better life.
I am guilty of this. I've always thought of my W as my life partner. We had amazing chemistry. The truth is, we never grew on that, but those feelings have always been present for us (she said this for herself in Oct).
My vote: kick her to the curb.
Do you mean file D? Or how do I do this, in your opinion?
Here are some recent details on my sitch:
Saturday, went shopping with W. She bought a Cricut and wanted material. So we went shopping for 4 or 5 hours and enjoyed the day mostly. W has been tired a lot, even with adequate sleep.
W has been mad at my mom and friends for sending Christmas cards and wedding invites to my name only. At first, I tried explaining to W why they might do that. That was dumb. The next time this came up, I asked her if there was anything she could do about it to fix it. She didn't respond much to that. So I asked her to let go of it if it was out of her hands. Well, she's been so focused on this and it's really chapping her buns.
Case in point, Saturday, towards the end of the day, I told W I'm going to my mom's tomorrow for her bday. W is upset, asks if she was invited, I tell her that I didn't think she'd attend anyways so I didn't ask. My mom doesn't want to see her on Thanksgiving, her bday, or Xmas for the first time in 10 months with everything going on. My W knows this. My W wants my mom to be a loving, super involved figure like her parents are but my mom is nothing like W's parents. So W shuts down, gets rude, and another card came Saturday night to just me. She opened it when we got home and got pissed. I told her she was being rude and that I'm leaving to go to mass.
By the time I got back she was asleep in bed from 6pm-10pm. Then she woke up and stayed up to 4 or 5 am when she made a ruckus and laid with her leg on me all night. I left Sunday AM with my pup to do some training for about an hour. I get back a W tells me she's going to her parents tonight. OK. Then she tells me she felt queasy in the shower and was dizzy and came out and fell on the bed. I asked did she eat, she said she ate candy, and that was it, since Sat morning. I told her to go to the Dr. She said they'll just say it's stress. I said too much, she was just trying to get me to feel bad for her anyways. She's still fighting depression IMO and isn't going to counseling or dealing with her issues.
So I went and enjoyed Sunday, W stayed "at her parents" Sunday and Monday night and then shows up early at the house today, unannounced packing food and taking a shower. Since it woke me up, I grabbed my stuff and left for the day because it's better for me to not see her or talk to her. And I haven't called her and don't plan to. She hasn't called me either. I could look at the car GPS to see where she really was, but I'm not going to unless she is coming back and telling me stories.
She also went to her parents last week to discuss my mom not wanting her to come over. Well, if my W was fully committed to our MR, I'd have to forgo my mom for the time being. But W is not and was not fully committed. Her parents think my mom was the OW for her husband 17 years ago. And she may have been, but I don't know what that has to do with their daughter's actions. It's like they feel justified b/c of this, and b/c I was horrible before. Oh well, can't change their minds. Warning to newbies: don't talk to your inlaws!!!
I really need to DB hard and not jump back into things with her without the full commitment. I've read Zeus's post about 5 times now and really need to pound that into my head. The crap relationship of her being a B to me, not being accountable for her own actions, running to OM, not working with me to solve problems, and being mad at everyone is getting old.
So it's back to GAL. Gonna train my pup some more, she's a 6 month old black lab, hunt more, go out with friends, cook a ton of food, run, lift, sauna, play basketball.
Brutal honesty appreciated, thanks everyone for reading!
Ovr,
Today is so busy so I dont have much time or time to proof read. I will be back tho. I want to first say that I really like you based on what I read. Why? Because you remind me of my H. He is a pretty extreme NG too. We talk a lot on these boards about the bad qualities of it and how women don't like "beta males" (whatever the heck that means), but we don't talk about the positives that come along with it. There are many. You have an open heart, you are loyal, and you genuinely want to understand people. I like that about you. IMO many of the posters here that think they have NGS really don't. That was a bit off topic. The issue for you now is that you have continued to allow your WW to disrespect you and have a relationship with you without her having changed. And you continue to do so. Each day, week, month that this goes on, you are teaching her that you do not deserve to be treated better. I want you to really think about it. You are knee deep in this drama and it's getting harder for you to remove yourself now. This is why I lined up all of those questions for you to answer. I want you to really think about your sitch and where this is leading. I also really want you to dig deeper and think about why you are allowing this to happen. How people allow others to treat them speak volumes about how the see themselves and their worth.
I know I am hard on you. I like you and I care. But I think you are enabling your own messy sitch and enabling her wayward behavior. I think it's time to toughen up and put her aside for now. You, your health, and your happiness should always be first and foremost. How you decide to do that is up to you. You deserve a partner that is as loyal and compassionate as you are. The thing is, you have to show yourself the same loyalty and compassion. Have you thought about telling her that this drama is really wearing you down, that this current dynamic is not working for either of you, and that you need a break? And then sticking to it? Sure, she will throw a fit, pout, or act like a child (you already know that), but you can certainly be the grown up in this and tell her that you are serous this time. Then you need to really stick to it!!! Stand firm. Words are meaningless if the actions do not support them. You can teach her to treat you better, but it takes a long time, especially after enduring her abuse/lies for this long.
The reason I say all this is because it appears hard for you to detach, 180, GAL, when she is right there in your face kicking up drama every chance she can get. Something to think about. The details of how this happens, I do not know. First, you have to believe in it. Then you have to execute. Continuing on THIS crazy train is only leading in one direction. Crazy town.
Blu
Hi everyone,
I've been thinking and reading a bit. I've been getting out the last couple days and evenings and enjoying life. W came home Tues morning to (presumably) get clothes and shower. Prolly wanted to walk past me to see if I'd say anything to her. It woke me up so I got up and left quickly while she was in the shower, I didn't want to see her face.
Then last night I saw she was home so I kept on driving past the house and went to hang with my sister. W texted, asking where I put an earrings box. And then she called twice, and I didn't answer or respond. I'm sure she was wanting to temp check me while looking for these earrings or she's just selfish and her needs must be met immediately. She had stuff everywhere and I just kinda cleaned up and moved her stuff all to one spot clearly so she could have found it.
I got home late last night, she took the TV out of the master and my computer charger and her favorite pillow. Her computer charger has been broken and I told her to get a new one like ten times in the last year. I'll just go get a new one, I'm not talking to her or letting her get under my skin.
I read this over in SoTorn's thread:
"I need to get away from her because I want to get on with my life and I cant tolerate her continued disrespect "
. I feel pretty similar. It's just ridiculous and I'm tired of the rollercoaster.
As Blu and Sia said, I really don't like her lack of commitment, her not owning her own actions, and getting pissed at everyone for having feelings. Only W's feelings matter and I should be happy to just bask in her glow.... My W is a very good looking gal, like all of the women I've dated, but I was drawn to her b/c of how much she cared. She was, sweet, helpful, loving. Keyword there is "was". She isn't that caring person anymore. I'm going to go out and have fun with friends and live a little.
Hi everyone,
I've been thinking and reading a bit. I've been getting out the last couple days and evenings and enjoying life. W came home Tues morning to (presumably) get clothes and shower. Prolly wanted to walk past me to see if I'd say anything to her. It woke me up so I got up and left quickly while she was in the shower, I didn't want to see her face.
Then last night I saw she was home so I kept on driving past the house and went to hang with my sister. W texted, asking where I put an earrings box. And then she called twice, and I didn't answer or respond. I'm sure she was wanting to temp check me while looking for these earrings or she's just selfish and her needs must be met immediately. She had stuff everywhere and I just kinda cleaned up and moved her stuff all to one spot clearly so she could have found it.
I got home late last night, she took the TV out of the master and my computer charger and her favorite pillow. Her computer charger has been broken and I told her to get a new one like ten times in the last year. I'll just go get a new one, I'm not talking to her or letting her get under my skin.
I read this over in SoTorn's thread:
"I need to get away from her because I want to get on with my life and I cant tolerate her continued disrespect "
. I feel pretty similar. It's just ridiculous and I'm tired of the rollercoaster.
As Blu and Sia said, I really don't like her lack of commitment, her not owning her own actions, and getting pissed at everyone for having feelings. Only W's feelings matter and I should be happy to just bask in her glow.... My W is a very good looking gal, like all of the women I've dated, but I was drawn to her b/c of how much she cared. She was, sweet, helpful, loving. Keyword there is "was". She isn't that caring person anymore. I'm going to go out and have fun with friends and live a little.
I still feel like that but I don't know if moving out myself is a good idea. I believe its an emotional idea for me because I want to move away from her for hurting me emotionally when I see her. I need to just focus on DB and not worry about what she does. I need to do me. That is what makes me feel better.
Also wondering if I should go completely dark, ignore questions too or just NC with brief responses to questions.
Also wondering if I should go completely dark, ignore questions too or just NC with brief responses to questions.
Keep it all business, brother. You are not there to comfort her, support her, or do any of that garbage. She does not deserve you because she is not owning up to her screw-ups. You deserve to be treated better!
Don't fall for her traps. She has to own her crap. Anything short of a confession, humility, genuine remorse, and a TRUE willingness to work on the marriage is just BS.
Crazy W blew my phone up 7 times this morning then pulled her car in the middle of the road to block me from leaving the neighborhood this morning. I also ignored her texts the last 2 days. Got out crying and yelling at me how I owe her money and how I moved some of her stuff. After the third car went by I told her I am not sitting in the road anymore and drove off and called her.
I told her where her stuff was.
She wanted to yell at me saying I owe her more money. I probably don't. She probably owes me money. But now we'll go way back and see who paid what these last 9 months.
She complained that it's not fair that she doesn't get to be at the house. I didn't say it but she left, and nobody made her. And I don't get to use the nice car she drives that is as expensive as the house. I said that, but that doesn't matter.
I really didn't want to see her. She's a selfish, immature turd. Not
I know everyone is busy, I'm just contemplating what I should "do". Go dark, NC, what. Just don't have a clue.
Hey bud,
Go dark. GAL. Make yourself as unavailable as possible. If that goes into the next morning, so be it.
Focus on YOU. If she contacts you, make it ALL business.
Show her you’re not screwing around.
Ovr sorry for the pain brother. Let her fail. Let her be irrational or irratic. Be the lighthouse enjoy your picnic. I have Ngs as bad or worse than you. I assume my W is out on a date tonight. Then I have no plans the next few days and have struck out with everyone I’ve reached out to. Where do you live again lol? I don’t get D4 back until christmas night. So I may go to nyc or hit some trails. Writing a lot.
You are not responsible for her behavior. You are not the cause of her behavior. Let her feel rock bottom. Do everything you can for it not to affect you. I wouldn’t let her get away w some of the stuff. The computer cord is yours. Say no as much as possible. I’d go NC with limited contact if she’s in the house she is going to screw things up but set strong boundaries. She can not have you if she’s inconsistent. Take the call if needed explain if she gets angry or emotional the convo is over. My W is manipulative but I used to get the anger. I didn’t deal with it well. It always brought me way low. So I’m sorry for you.
Give yourself the love and focus on you. I am basically thinking I’m getting D in a month. Don’t see my w changing. Do everything you know how with DB for you. Take the focus off her and let her go. Don’t give her anything. You asked on my sitch if I had gotten her a christmas present. Yes I had but I’m not giving it to her. Good book called silence about introverts. Anyway cheers homey. Head up. Sending positive thoughts.
I know everyone is busy, I'm just contemplating what I should "do". Go dark, NC, what. Just don't have a clue.
Do you not have a clue, not at all? Or are you just not ready to fully drop the rope? These are two different things. So which is it? It's okay if you are not ready. When you ARE ready, let us know.
Blu
Yep. It's all our fault. We are the enemy. We made them act like this.
I'm just upset this week Blu. I am done chasing this woman around. I am tired of being treated like hell. If she can't be the W I need, then she can't do it and we wouldn't have a MR worth having. That is hard to say, and hard to accept. But logically, it's true.
Not seeing her, not talking to her at all, not responding to questions - basically ignoring her...these are actions of "going dark", right?
But NC means I can respond to her questions, as briefly as possible. I was very upset, clearly, that she took off last weekend.
My opinion is that I need to not see or talk to her at all, AKA "go dark", for at least a couple more weeks.
It's obvious, I still want a MR 2 with her. I want her kind, caring self back. But the reality is she may never be that person, at least for me, ever again. So I let go of everything, and see if she comes back, and if she does, then I really lay down - and ENFORCE - the boundary. And don't settle for less.
Does "going dark" and ignoring her no matter what seem to harsh of an approach, or going "NC" should I respond to her questions? That's what I'm looking for here. But as of now I'm going dark for a week or two.
Also, on a very happy note. I've got a new gig lined up next year and my pay is going about 60% on the base and with commission/bonus could easily double what I'm doing now. So pumped to get after it come Mar 1!!!!!
And Did, thanks for checking in man. I'm in suburban, almost rural STL. Not close to the big big city like NYC. I got W as Xmas present too, but I'm not giving it to her either.
Merry Christmas y'all.
Ovr, I don’t know what the difference between going dark versus NC is, either one u pick, the point is to give yourself some space from her. I only respond back about kids or about finances, even the simplest thing about kids I respond back because that is important to me. You have no kids so it will be only about important financial topics or an emergency. Her car not starting up is not an emergency but if it ran over the cliff it is, you know what I mean. And what’s the point of few weeks , what are you expecting in few weeks? This should be the status quo until the sitch changes enough to re-evaluate
Hi Ovr,
I think the level of contact depends on what financial or logisticals need to be communicated and the nature of the contact depends on what you need to heal. The first (finances/logistics) you can’t avoid if it raises its ugly head. You need to respond because that is what being a grown up means, the second is really up to you. I have kids, so going dark was never an option but I would level my response depending on what I could handle at the time. In the early days it was simply, yes/no or nothing at all. Now I add hello and thank you, the odd ‘hope you’re well’. It is never more friendly than that. He tries to extend the conversation but I think it feels false. If we can’t be friendly I real life, then why pretend on text.
They really don’t know what they want. Until they do, leave them to it. Do what you need to stop their every action from sending you into a spin. Easier said then done. Detach, detach, detach.
I believe that NC means more like limited contact. You should not initiate contact. No R talk. If WW talks to you you answer shortly. If WW does something for you, still thank her. You will know you talked too long and too much because you will feel anger, sadness, anxious. So the goal is to limit your contact well under the threshold for where you start to feel a negative emotion from the contact itself.
This should be the status quo until the sitch changes enough to re-evaluate.
This. She has to want you and only you. She doesn’t get to have your emotional support and she doesn’t get to push/pull you as it suits her. You are the man who is hard to get at.
Going dark/NC is super hard but...what else will work? Do it for your own mental health.
The only thing I wish I knew was how to tell “when the sitch changes enough to re-evaluate.” My guess would be when she comes back begging YOU to stay. So, you know, 1-2 years...right? Or Sia can you clarify?
the goal is to limit your contact well under the threshold for where you start to feel a negative emotion from the contact itself.
Nicely phrases and that’s definitely the sweet spot in my experience. In my case that threshold was super, super low.
That's how I'm handling it. Seems to work very well.
The only thing I wish I knew was how to tell “when the sitch changes enough to re-evaluate.” My guess would be when she comes back begging YOU to stay. So, you know, 1-2 years...right? Or Sia can you clarify?
I think the more likely scenario for the sitch changing enough to re-evalute is when you get sick enough of the limbo and the crap that she is pulling and YOU make the decision that you don't want this person in your life.
Ovr, I don’t know what the difference between going dark versus NC is, either one u pick, the point is to give yourself some space from her. I only respond back about kids or about finances, even the simplest thing about kids I respond back because that is important to me. You have no kids so it will be only about important financial topics or an emergency. Her car not starting up is not an emergency but if it ran over the cliff it is, you know what I mean. And what’s the point of few weeks , what are you expecting in few weeks? This should be the status quo until the sitch changes enough to re-evaluate
I was saying a few weeks of straight not responding to a call or text even if it was about finances. Our finances are fine, she is just crabbing to get me to give her more money right now.
There's a chance my W will be home a night or two this week. I'm thinking about taking an air mattress and spending the night somewhere else if she is home. I just don't want to see her.
Today she texts a Timehop screenshot from 2 years ago of a dinner I made. Then a couple hours later "Over...." then another hour later she says "Sorry, having a hard time."
No response from me. I've been at home by myself for a while now and you ran off to OM's parent's house again. This loser lives at his parent's house.
I'm still super pumped for the new job and money and freedom and am so ready to hit it hard come March.
Ovr, I don’t know what the difference between going dark versus NC is, either one u pick, the point is to give yourself some space from her. I only respond back about kids or about finances, even the simplest thing about kids I respond back because that is important to me. You have no kids so it will be only about important financial topics or an emergency. Her car not starting up is not an emergency but if it ran over the cliff it is, you know what I mean. And what’s the point of few weeks , what are you expecting in few weeks? This should be the status quo until the sitch changes enough to re-evaluate
I was saying a few weeks of straight not responding to a call or text even if it was about finances. Our finances are fine, she is just crabbing to get me to give her more money right now.
There's a chance my W will be home a night or two this week. I'm thinking about taking an air mattress and spending the night somewhere else if she is home. I just don't want to see her.
Today she texts a Timehop screenshot from 2 years ago of a dinner I made. Then a couple hours later "Over...." then another hour later she says "Sorry, having a hard time."
No response from me. I've been at home by myself for a while now and you ran off to OM's parent's house again. This loser lives at his parent's house.
I'm still super pumped for the new job and money and freedom and am so ready to hit it hard come March.
My WW was texting me quite a bit, and I stopped responding to her completely because none of it was urgent about kids or finances. I got a sad "I never know when you will be home, you never respond to my texts anymore" from her the other day.
I just smiled, went to my room, showered and left again without saying another word to her. I am sure that my WW thinks I am just trying to be mean or something, thats how she acts about it anyway. I am not trying to be mean, I am just not available to her like I was before.
Hey guys,
So I went totally no contact, no responding to anything, and went out and enjoyed myself over the weekend and Christmas. I needed some space b/c she was really hurting me and I was letting her. Christmas Eve started the parade of texts, pics, calls. All ignored. All about missing me and how things are hard for her. Christmas Day was the same, then W left her parents house and showed up at our house in the morning to talk.
I told her I'd had enough of her lies, deceit, disrespect and that I'm not doing it anymore. She did a lot of crying, said she wanted to try again. I said I don't and can't trust her and that I'm done living like that. Told her I know she went to OM's house (his parent's house since that's where he lives - POS) and when and how she lied to me all those times plus this month and also back in June, July, Sept, Oct and that it's disgusting and that's just who she is now. She said that's not who she is and I said BS. That's exactly who she is so why should I do this again? Asked her how I could ever trust her. I let her come up with some ideas and threw in some of my own.
Long story short she's agreed to:
1. MC - told her is she makes excuses not to go then it's over.
2. OM - told her she can call him in front of me and tell him it's over. Going to do this tonight.
3. Location app - I can see where she is b/c she's always lied about where she was going.
4. Get rid of Snapchat. It's all deleted so how would I know she isn't contacting OM?
5. Treatment of me has to be better.
So I didn't go back with her to her parent's house, I went on with my Christmas Day plans and went hunting all day yesterday which I already had planned.
So here we are, I'm going to have to just stick to my guns and she can't do it then she can't do it. That's where I am at mentally, just tired of the pain and I'm not gonna give in or gloss over things anymore. That is definitely the dumbest thing, and I know that from experience.
Any advice is appreciated.
Hey guys,
So I went totally no contact, no responding to anything, and went out and enjoyed myself over the weekend and Christmas. I needed some space b/c she was really hurting me and I was letting her. Christmas Eve started the parade of texts, pics, calls. All ignored. All about missing me and how things are hard for her. Christmas Day was the same, then W left her parents house and showed up at our house in the morning to talk.
I told her I'd had enough of her lies, deceit, disrespect and that I'm not doing it anymore. She did a lot of crying, said she wanted to try again. I said I don't and can't trust her and that I'm done living like that. Told her I know she went to OM's house (his parent's house since that's where he lives - POS) and when and how she lied to me all those times plus this month and also back in June, July, Sept, Oct and that it's disgusting and that's just who she is now. She said that's not who she is and I said BS. That's exactly who she is so why should I do this again? Asked her how I could ever trust her. I let her come up with some ideas and threw in some of my own.
Long story short she's agreed to:
1. MC - told her is she makes excuses not to go then it's over.
2. OM - told her she can call him in front of me and tell him it's over. Going to do this tonight.
3. Location app - I can see where she is b/c she's always lied about where she was going.
4. Get rid of Snapchat. It's all deleted so how would I know she isn't contacting OM?
5. Treatment of me has to be better.
So I didn't go back with her to her parent's house, I went on with my Christmas Day plans and went hunting all day yesterday which I already had planned.
So here we are, I'm going to have to just stick to my guns and she can't do it then she can't do it. That's where I am at mentally, just tired of the pain and I'm not gonna give in or gloss over things anymore. That is definitely the dumbest thing, and I know that from experience.
Any advice is appreciated.
Wow man. Its all about her actions and not her words. Has she said she wanted to R before? I believe its the same thing for WW, consistent positive actions and keeping you well informed and being 100% transparent. Its going to take a metric ton of work on her end to rebuild that trust.
The holidays are a very emotional time of the year. I think your boundaries are quite reasonable. Going from OM directly to you, without an off time in between is going to take a lot of perserverance and sticking to those boundaries. It's going to be the hardest work you have done.
So Torn is absolutely right. She needs to show you actions.
best of luck.
Hey guys,
So I went totally no contact, no responding to anything, and went out and enjoyed myself over the weekend and Christmas. I needed some space b/c she was really hurting me and I was letting her. Christmas Eve started the parade of texts, pics, calls. All ignored. All about missing me and how things are hard for her. Christmas Day was the same, then W left her parents house and showed up at our house in the morning to talk.
I told her I'd had enough of her lies, deceit, disrespect and that I'm not doing it anymore. She did a lot of crying, said she wanted to try again. I said I don't and can't trust her and that I'm done living like that. Told her I know she went to OM's house (his parent's house since that's where he lives - POS) and when and how she lied to me all those times plus this month and also back in June, July, Sept, Oct and that it's disgusting and that's just who she is now. She said that's not who she is and I said BS. That's exactly who she is so why should I do this again? Asked her how I could ever trust her. I let her come up with some ideas and threw in some of my own.
Long story short she's agreed to:
1. MC - told her is she makes excuses not to go then it's over.
2. OM - told her she can call him in front of me and tell him it's over. Going to do this tonight.
3. Location app - I can see where she is b/c she's always lied about where she was going.
4. Get rid of Snapchat. It's all deleted so how would I know she isn't contacting OM?
5. Treatment of me has to be better.
So I didn't go back with her to her parent's house, I went on with my Christmas Day plans and went hunting all day yesterday which I already had planned.
So here we are, I'm going to have to just stick to my guns and she can't do it then she can't do it. That's where I am at mentally, just tired of the pain and I'm not gonna give in or gloss over things anymore. That is definitely the dumbest thing, and I know that from experience.
Any advice is appreciated.
Do not backslide. This is how you DB.
PS: Nice balls!
Think about how you plan on enforcing the NC boundary.
When you....
I feel....
If you.....
I will....
I got caught up on your sitch. Your WW is all over the damn place lol. With mine, the OM is in another state and is easy access when WW travels. I honestly feel that she is ok with that right now. WW hasnt even hinted on R with me. WW was doing the crazy calling, texting a few times, but once I stopped responding to her and answering her calls she stopped. I was getting those temp checks last week of "You never talk to me, you never respond to me". My WW is very stubborn and honestly I think she is borderline bi-polar.
Unfortunately, I feel that even if I DB perfectly, my WW will never pursue me and try to R. Therefore, I am just DBing to protect my emotions and ready myself for the D and me moving on completely. I am getting there. Its a rough road. I am actually glad my WW isnt trying to get me to hold her, or fight over the bed etc. My WW just moved upstairs and said "Peace out" but then that is where she stopped. WW just lives upstairs now, nothing changing that I can see.
I got caught up on your sitch. Your WW is all over the damn place lol. With mine, the OM is in another state and is easy access when WW travels. I honestly feel that she is ok with that right now. WW hasnt even hinted on R with me. WW was doing the crazy calling, texting a few times, but once I stopped responding to her and answering her calls she stopped. I was getting those temp checks last week of "You never talk to me, you never respond to me". My WW is very stubborn and honestly I think she is borderline bi-polar.
Same here. Lots of sniffing when I first went to very little contact to no-contact. Then...stopped. In my experience, WW has asked why I'm ignoring her, being cold to her, etc. Expect more of these and increase in desperation for them to elicit a response. See my thread for an example of what was pulled on me two days ago.
Unfortunately, I feel that even if I DB perfectly, my WW will never pursue me and try to R. Therefore, I am just DBing to protect my emotions and ready myself for the D and me moving on completely. I am getting there. Its a rough road.
Nothing is guaranteed and you know that already. All you can do is control yourself and prepare yourself how to handle whatever WW throws your way. Just like ovr did. His delivery to WW was perfect. It was firm, powerful, and earnest. If WW came to you all of a sudden would you be able to respond the same way? I'd venture to say no. I know I cannot yet.
It is a rough road, but you have company.
I got caught up on your sitch. Your WW is all over the damn place lol. With mine, the OM is in another state and is easy access when WW travels. I honestly feel that she is ok with that right now. WW hasnt even hinted on R with me. WW was doing the crazy calling, texting a few times, but once I stopped responding to her and answering her calls she stopped. I was getting those temp checks last week of "You never talk to me, you never respond to me". My WW is very stubborn and honestly I think she is borderline bi-polar.
Same here. Lots of sniffing when I first went to very little contact to no-contact. Then...stopped. In my experience, WW has asked why I'm ignoring her, being cold to her, etc. Expect more of these and increase in desperation for them to elicit a response. See my thread for an example of what was pulled on me two days ago.
Unfortunately, I feel that even if I DB perfectly, my WW will never pursue me and try to R. Therefore, I am just DBing to protect my emotions and ready myself for the D and me moving on completely. I am getting there. Its a rough road.
Nothing is guaranteed and you know that already. All you can do is control yourself and prepare yourself how to handle whatever WW throws your way. Just like ovr did. His delivery to WW was perfect. It was firm, powerful, and earnest. If WW came to you all of a sudden would you be able to respond the same way? I'd venture to say no. I know I cannot yet.
It is a rough road, but you have company.
Honestly I got a temp check text from WW a couple of weeks ago saying "What do you want me to do? What do you want?". I said "I already explained to you what I wanted and your actions continued to show disrespect. Your actions speak louder than your words, so as of now, your words mean jack"
I got an "ok" response to that.
I have no expectations that my WW will come back and say she wants to work on us. As of now she is too far gone into the A and her la la fantasy grass is greener land. I honestly feel that it would take me leaving and filing for D to elicit any sort of reaction from her, but at that point it wouldnt be to elicit a reaction, it would be for me to cut ties and move forward.
I am getting really comfortable being a "single" man. I look way better than I have in a long time. I changed my FB status to single and I have had no less than five women start talking me up. As of now I set a boundary with the women that reach out to me propositioning a date that I am open to meeting new people and happy to make new friends but as of now my goal is friends, but that could change in the future.
Honestly I got a temp check text from WW a couple of weeks ago saying "What do you want me to do? What do you want?". I said "I already explained to you what I wanted and your actions continued to show disrespect. Your actions speak louder than your words, so as of now, your words mean jack"
I think the more seasoned vets can give you some words to provide next time she asks that. I would keep the response as short as responsible. Something to the point of where you address that you don't need or want her to do anything. You are focused on yourself and your kids. She made her bed, she can lie in it.
I have no expectations that my WW will come back and say she wants to work on us. As of now she is too far gone into the A and her la la fantasy grass is greener land. I honestly feel that it would take me leaving and filing for D to elicit any sort of reaction from her, but at that point it wouldnt be to elicit a reaction, it would be for me to cut ties and move forward.
Good thing you're saying that. Saying it out loud is the first step towards believing and living it. That gets reinforced when you assume that WW is noticing the changes and she shows "signs" but continues her WW ways. That's when you start believing the things you are doing are changing you into AMOAFWL. If WW does not see that, then some other lucky lady will.
I am getting really comfortable being a "single" man. I look way better than I have in a long time.
Keep up the good work. This is a marathon. Make the changes permanent.
Ya that's the anger coming out. I am working hard on that and my word choices. It's hard to not show anger when you are actively angry. But I have bee doing much better. PMA.
As of now I truly believe that WW will file for D soon. I have accepted that and that I will be fine. My legal services I get as a benefit from work kick in on the 1st. Going to L up asap and wait for it. I am going to look at condos this weekend.
Hey guys,
So I went totally no contact, no responding to anything, and went out and enjoyed myself over the weekend and Christmas. I needed some space b/c she was really hurting me and I was letting her. Christmas Eve started the parade of texts, pics, calls. All ignored. All about missing me and how things are hard for her. Christmas Day was the same, then W left her parents house and showed up at our house in the morning to talk.
I told her I'd had enough of her lies, deceit, disrespect and that I'm not doing it anymore. She did a lot of crying, said she wanted to try again. I said I don't and can't trust her and that I'm done living like that. Told her I know she went to OM's house (his parent's house since that's where he lives - POS) and when and how she lied to me all those times plus this month and also back in June, July, Sept, Oct and that it's disgusting and that's just who she is now. She said that's not who she is and I said BS. That's exactly who she is so why should I do this again? Asked her how I could ever trust her. I let her come up with some ideas and threw in some of my own.
Long story short she's agreed to:
1. MC - told her is she makes excuses not to go then it's over.
2. OM - told her she can call him in front of me and tell him it's over. Going to do this tonight.
3. Location app - I can see where she is b/c she's always lied about where she was going.
4. Get rid of Snapchat. It's all deleted so how would I know she isn't contacting OM?
5. Treatment of me has to be better.
So I didn't go back with her to her parent's house, I went on with my Christmas Day plans and went hunting all day yesterday which I already had planned.
So here we are, I'm going to have to just stick to my guns and she can't do it then she can't do it. That's where I am at mentally, just tired of the pain and I'm not gonna give in or gloss over things anymore. That is definitely the dumbest thing, and I know that from experience.
Any advice is appreciated.
Do not backslide. This is how you DB.
PS: Nice balls!
I had to lol at that compliment!
ovrrnbw, showing some love bro. thanks for posting on my sitch. I am reading yours from the start and have to say, this is a huge turn around from the beginning.
Keep the DB going.
Hi Ovrrnbw, I'm trying to get caught up here and I'm really confused by your latest updates! The last I think I wrote on your thread it sounded like you and your wife had reconciled, were in counseling, she had broken up with OM and had moved back in with you and things had been going well, etc... I remember you asking how to win her respect but it sounds like she's since moved out again and she's back with OM but still trying to be with you? It sounds like you're doing the right thing by not putting up with any of her tactics and showing her you're serious. You might even want to go further and let her worry a bit more that you're considering ending the marriage permanently. It sounds like this has been going on long enough and it's great that you're truly ready to show her you're serious this time. I hope everything works out! I hope when it comes down to it she gets cornered and realizes the double life and back-and-forth isn't an option anymore. Good for you!
Ovr,
It seems as if you and your WW are holding two opposite ends of a long rope, and there is this endless game of tug of war, however no one is winning and yet no one will drop the rope, and so it goes, on and on. I have seen you guys take turns pulling each other in, loosening the grip, and then you get tired of the game for a bit, and think about letting go, she senses it, and then she pulls you in even closer! But somehow, you are the one working, much harder than her, and your grip is weakening over time, because the game keeps starting over with no break in between. Why do you think that could be? What do you think is different this time?
Have you read all the most recent threads by Joe2017?
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2826945#Post2826945I hope you will read all of it if you haven't yet, and if you have, perhaps read it again. He dropped the rope and let her go. He disengaged from it all and took the time to really heal and grow on his own. She learned over that time that her life wasn't better without him, and she also learned in that time that he no longer needed her. She grew to respect him after he dropped the rope and so she was forced to look at her own decisions. Even after D and many months she came back. And she came back a changed woman. The way he describes her is very different than the way you are describing your WW -- a couple days of tears and pleading, which I recall she has done more than once now. Also note that he is not the one giving her a list of conditions, but it is her that is doing the real work now. She is doing the work because she is truly remorseful now and can only hope he will give her a solid chance, and she even admits she thinks he may not be able to forgive her and make it work. Overall, she reads very, very different from your WW.
I am not suggesting that you have to go through D and a long separation for reconciliation to be successful. But I do think the WW has to be ready to work hard in order to start piecing, and you haven't explained yet how she is there (other than crying and agreeing to your list of conditions). In my sitch, my H also had to go off for a long while (10 months) and face his reality without me. In that time I had to drop the rope because, well, he didn't give me much choice in the matter. So I learned to let go. When he approached me, he read much like Joe2017 WW: he was remorseful, humble, and wanted nothing more than to proove his worthiness, while also admitting he knew it may never work and I may never forgive him. He freely offered up his own list of conditions. Then he stuck to them for weeks, months and years, with actions.
I still, after all that, think I took him back too easily and too quickly. These last 3.5 years of piecing have been so hard and so bumpy, and I think it was made harder because I didn't take enough of my own time. For me. I hope you will take more time. Time is always on our side. And I mean a long, long time. You don't want to jump back in just to end up back here in a couple years. I still think you both have a lot of growing up to do.
Blu
Ovr,
Blu hit the nail on the head. I'm in the same opinion as her. I think I could have taken a more time for myself before my wife and I decided to move forward with our M. I has been bumpy, but we are moving along. Give yourself time, please.
Your WW is pulling your right back in. She plays the same script and plays on you. She senses you pulling away then she comes in hard making declarations and you sit back and wait to see if she fulfills them. That play has worked on you multiple times. You have to let go this time, you have to fully drop the rope. Your WW knows what your boundaries are. Instead of telling her what she needs to do, this time you move forward with your life until she shows you with action that she is going to respect you and your boundaries. You have given her countless amount of chances with no changes from her. So, IMHO it's time to shut down her playbook and you need to move forward, with or without her. If she is really serious about being with you, she will come chasing, while at the same time putting in the work. But as long as your are sitting back waiting, she doesn't have to put in any work and she knows that. And she knows you are waiting because you have now told her if she does XY&Z then you will consider the M.
I also loved that you stood up for yourself as well and made your demands clear!!!!!!
Work on healing yourself. Find a way to let go of the anger, I didn't give myself time to heal properly and I'm still holding on to anger. It has caused a lot of setbacks for my Sitch.
If you truly love your W, you will let go of that rope that you and her have been tugging on, so she can grow and you can heal!!!!! The hardest steps in loving a person is not the holding on part, it will always be the letting go!!!!!
Over
So I think your Christmas talk was an ultimatum
Have you had ultimatums before
The MWD advice is only give the ultimatum if you can go through with it
Agree with Blue and Joe that your job here is to drop the rope
And let her do the work of doing the right things
Because she wants to do them
Not because you are demanding them and keeping score
As you know I was DBing for two years before my ultimatum last Christmas
And then I gave her time and space to do the work
Drop the OM
Drop the legal proceedings
Transparency into her online and IRL whereabouts
Re engaging with children
Re engaging with me
All of this has taken much more patience than expected
Things can improve but very slowly
And not on your timeline
She has to do the work
So keep working on you
And pray for patience
I love Blu because of her candor on the difficulty of piecing
I think I expected quick and dramatic improvement
But it has not been like that for me
That is why they say set expectations at zero
Hey everyone, I needed a break from my sitch. I have a couple responses and updates.
Nicole,
We had kinda reconciled, but not really I guess. My W would call it "trying". My W never moved out fully, always just packed a bag for a few days.
Why do you think that could be? What do you think is different this time?
I think I'm starting to see her for what she is and not what I want her to be. I think I am getting tired of the waywardness. Or are you saying I just have let her jump from OM's bed back to the MB?
I certainly need to look at my patterns here and break the negative ones. It's obvious I'm not fully detached, but I'm getting better, truly. There was something I got a little worried about a couple weeks ago, but I didn't say anything to her. A couple days later I found out what it was, and it wasn't what I thought. I was very relieved and it made me realize why we LBS's shouldn't be trying to mind read much.
Joe, thanks for the comment. It is hard to stand up for ourselves sometimes, but that's part of killing the inner NGS and stating what you want and being a clear, strong person. I have been trying to let go of all my old anger, mainly by not allowing myself to dwell on it and trying to 180 on the grudge holding I used to do. I may go back to IC just to vent and hear some perspective and get help on losing some of those negative traits I learned from my dad.
Gordie, I didn't think I was giving her an ultimatum, but now I see that it may have come off that way. I remember what MWD said in her book about ultimatums.
Just today, I was thinking about the positives that would occur if me and W ended up divorced, there are several. But obviously I don't know if that will happen or not. Plenty of negatives there too. But it won't be as bad as I thought 6 months ago.
When she first came back, we were intimate and having sex in the first 10 days or so. I remember thinking, this means nothing during it and that made it less fun. Then W got on her period and we haven't done anything since then. We had a good New Years, stayed at an air bnb near the lake bar we like. But now the intimacy has slowed a little bit, no sex in a couple weeks. I think she is having ups and downs. Or maybe she was just being manipulative in the beginning. We'll see if I'm forgetting anything if my sister reads this post and reminds me.
W is still wearing her ring, even though she had it off for a couple of days after we were doing snow plow work (24 hours straight) with FIL. I noticed it and said something, she said she forgot. Maybe that's true, maybe not. W wants to sell the house soon and get going on the next one. It'd be easier to do if our MR wasn't in the gutter, but I guess we are charging forward. I haven't really decided much on if it matters or not.
W is still not ready to face the reality and own up to her stuff. I think I read AnotherStander posting once that it takes a long time before most WW's come to grips with that. If AnotherStander reads this, maybe he can remind of his thoughts and experience there.
My GAL has kind of slowed down, I haven't seen any friends in a while. With the new job starting I've had to do lots of online training and find office space. Very excited to get started though.
Hope you all are doing well and thanks for following my story.
Should be starting MC soon. We will see how it goes.
ovr, hey buddy! Thanks for the update. I see the part about AS saying WWs take a long time before they recognize what they were doing. I can vouch for that. My W and I have been piecing since last March, and it wasn't until last month when I talked to her on our long trip she showed real remorse. Even disgust at herself. I have to admit it touched me. But think about that. She was out of waywardness for 10 months!!!! And just now showing the remorse for what happened.
Hang in there buddy, it gets better.
I do think Ovr's sitch is different than yours Steve. His WW has been blantantly disrespectful in several ways (cheating, denying OM, yelling at him, hitting him with pillows, then blowing up his phone, then crying, then running back to OM, and all the drama, rinse and repeat) and it has taken Ovr quite a long time to draw up some boundaries. Steve, your sitch unfolded quickly and you immediately did not tolerate anything from her, in fact you have said you were the one that BD her. My concern for Ovr is that he has essentially taught her that it's okay to treat him that way. He has agreed (or seems he did) to reconcile and she has not even ended her A or provided proof of ending. In fact, she has continued to deny it's even an A. I do NOT think its possible to piece with an active A and I see that he is holding back progress by allowing get her back so prematurely. It shows extreme weakness.
Ovr, I worry about you. I know you are a very smart and caring person: I've read your thoughtful and intelligent posts to others. I don't think you are trying to take your own good advice. And, it's hard to follow what's happening with you because you tend to dip out of posting on your thread for weeks at a time. I don't think you are just taking a break because you share very little now and you used to share a lot of details often. I understand it can be hard! I get it! I also get the sense you may not want us to know things. Do you feel shame that you allow her to treat you so poorly? Do you feel stuck that you have now let her back and she hasn't even shown proof of ending her A? Do you walk on eggshells knowing she could run right back to him? It sounds as if you are waiting for her to be remorseful and looking for validation from others. But these other people did not take their WW back while in an active A.
I personally didn't allow my H back until he not only ended his A and showed proof, but also when he showed true remorse and desire to be with me. That's what I deserve and so do you! And yes, his remorse did increase down the road as he more grasped what he had done, that's natural, as the more time that passes they see things more clearly..... But you have to have a starting point first. I think you know that but are either scared or have low self esteem. So instead of biting the bullet and taking her back without conditions, why not turn to us here and ask what you should do? We can help but you have to slow down and follow the advice.
I hope you will stay with us here in this thread. Don't look at what others say about their WW taking a long time to be remorseful, because that reads as you making excuses for her. Sure, she may not be remorseful yet, but if she hasn't even done the work to start piecing, then none of that even matters. That work starts with her ending her A and offering you transparency. Please don't dodge this post, even if you don't to like it. We owe it to each other to be honest. I have been reading here for many years, well before I started an acct, and I can tell you that the posters that allowed their S back too soon ended up right back in the same sitch. We don't want that for you!
Blu
Blu, all very true. Only small correction, I didn't BD her, I confronted her about her EA, which initiated her BDing me.
S, I just think your sitch is very different than his. Your timeline was extremely short (possibly the fastest on the boards) and she came back to you quickly. You also did not tolerate disrespectful/abusive/immature behavior. When a timeline is longer, as most of our timelines are, they become far more complex and we can make things slightly better or much worse, in how we respond and what we tolerate during the separation. I know I made my sitch far, far worse by being a mad woman. I feel like the advice Ovr needs is not telling him that yes, she could be remorseful down the road, but more so how he can require her treat him better now, with actions that is.
I'm really trying to understand what it is they are doing. Is she back in the home and they are piecing? Did she ever end her A? Is she remorseful at all or does she take any responsibility for what SHE has done to hurt the M? It's confusing to me that he says some things that suggest they are together (living together, at the lake, wearing rings, going to MC) but then she hasn't even admitted to an A, or ANY wrong doing, or possibly has a strong desire to even fix the M? Ovr, what is happening exactly? Because you disappear on us and it's still unclear. Are you living in limbo and taking her scraps and just don't know what to do now? Because we really CAN HELP you. I know we can. But you need to start with giving more info and allowing yourself to be vulnerable here. I think you know that somehthing is very wrong here, but perhaps you don't want us to know. I want to know. I want to help you. I hope you will let me....
Blu
She is back in the home. Truly, she never left the home, just packed bags for days at a time then dropped in for more clothes or stayed the night when she felt like it. Maybe that's a bit contradicting.
She has been in the MBR every night since the end of October. But she ran back to OM twice at the end of November and once right before Christmas. Her parents also still make excuses for her doing this. I told the inlaws on Thanksgiving that she ran back to the OM again. They went psycho asking me how I knew that. I told them I had a friend look, but really I looked at our car's app b/c it has GPS and maps showing when and where it goes. I asked the inlaws if they could keep this between us if I told them how I knew she was there, they agreed. But they lied to my face, b/c my wife told me they told her and asked why I'd send a certain friend to look. I told W why would you be there? It wouldn't matter if you didn't lie to me.
The inlaws and a couple of W's friends have been adamant in saying it's not an affair. This was never an issue until I finally used the word affair in May of last year and told W that I was going to sleep in the MBR again and that I was done sleeping in the guest bedroom. A month or two later, W and her friends or parents had come up with the saying that W and I were separated, and that it wasn't an affair. I reminded W that she began the EA at least a month before dropping the bomb on me and that even after the BD she was hanging out with me and going place and sleeping with me and having sex with me. I also reminded her that she never separated in any true sense: she never moved out, never separated finances, and never had a conversation about separating. And W has said repeatedly that she doesn't believe in divorce. Anyways, I'm done talking to the inlaws about anything of consequence.
W and her parents said, maybe 6 months ago, that Over has been mean to W for a long time, even since before getting married. When I finally got a little stronger I said, yes, and W made her vows knowing that - so it's not an excuse. W and the inlaws also try to justify W's affair by assuming that my mom had one too. I don't know if it's true or not, and really even if my mom did, it doesn't justify anyone else doing. W and her parents also try to compare me to my father. My father has been divorced 5 or 6 times and has at least 8 kids. He is older, stuck in his ways, and obviously not good at relationships. My mom was his last wife, and they were married for almost 17 years, with 3 kids. He is much worse than I've ever been to my W. He hit my mom at least once, yelled at her often, and treated her horribly. What my dad did is not the same as what I did. I've never shared that with W though.
In my early 20's, I was so adamant about being different than my dad. I had successful relationships where I treated women very well for the most part. When W and I started dating, things were great for the first year, but we did not relate well to each other because of our vastly different upbringings. However, our passion for each other always overcame our differences and fights. I've never fought with a girl in an R like I used to with my W when we were dating and married.
I also have an identical twin brother who I don't see or talk to anymore. He is very much like my dad, in that he has never had a less than stellar evaluation of how he treats people. My relationship with my brother ultimately ended over a very small amount of money. We tried a couple of times to be around each other, but we never fully got through it and the relationship is still broken. The last time I saw my brother was Memorial Day weekend at the lake where I screamed at him and my dad. My brother, dad, and I all bought a boat together right before I met my W. My brother stopped paying his share of it for no reason a couple years after we bought it, but my Dad would still let my brother use it. My dad did, and does, make excuses for my brother's poor behavior. He always wanted my brother to come around, and was scared that if he was too honesty with him, that my brother would not come around. NGS, anyone? So I'm knowing all of this, and am going the complete opposite way of my dad and brother. I'm concerned with being a good person to everyone I meet and trying to do the right thing in life, marriage, and everything really. Hopefully that's not too much of a tangent.
W sent OM a Snapchat message to break up (around Xmas) instead of calling him like I said to her, so that I could hear it. All I saw was a snapchat back from OM saying "F you". We have a GPS app to see where each other is whenever we want so that I know she isn't with OM. She doesn't know it, but her car also provides this info to me. When W came home on Christmas, she had been blowing up my phone for days and was crying and in tears wanting to be with me and was sorry and everything. But that remorse has faded. Do I discuss with W? Do I say nothing? Do I bring it up in MC? Who knows.....but I am tired of shackling who I am.
She basically still says she didn't do anything wrong, with a few caveats in there. But her behavior throughout everything tells a different story. I don't know how strong her desire is to fix things. I feel like it's still limbo, I'm definitely not comfortable sharing everything and being with her. But we hug and kiss goodbye every day. Things definitely aren't right, and I don't know what to do exactly. I've come a ways in not letting her treat me like crap IMO.
W is not yelling at me or hitting me or anything, things are much better than back in the summer. Blu, what is the work she needs to do, and how does that happen? We have the boundaries I laid out a couple pages ago.
Another truth nugget is that I'm afraid to go GAL and make plans without W. We both may be a bit codependent. She definitely is, and I am trying to accommodate her relationship expectations by not GAL. But it's also tough right now b/c I have a bunch of online training to complete by the end of the month and I have to sign a lease on office space for the new job by the end of the month. Anyways, fire more questions at me - I'm sure you'll have them. Here are some details, and I won't run off this time. I won't hide by abandoning my thread again. And I promise I'm not hiding by writing so extensively. Hell, maybe Sandi will love this!
Thanks for sharing ovr. We all need to do our inner voyage to look for who we are. Your W needs too. She should be doing IC. It’s not healthy to evade the things we did. I agree with Blu here. Eyes open ovr, keep walking your road. Control expectations and keep DB. You need to be patient. A lot.
Stay strong there Ovr.
S, I just think your sitch is very different than his. Your timeline was extremely short (possibly the fastest on the boards) and she came back to you quickly. You also did not tolerate disrespectful/abusive/immature behavior. When a timeline is longer, as most of our timelines are, they become far more complex and we can make things slightly better or much worse, in how we respond and what we tolerate during the separation. I know I made my sitch far, far worse by being a mad woman. I feel like the advice Ovr needs is not telling him that yes, she could be remorseful down the road, but more so how he can require her treat him better now, with actions that is.
I'm really trying to understand what it is they are doing. Is she back in the home and they are piecing? Did she ever end her A? Is she remorseful at all or does she take any responsibility for what SHE has done to hurt the M? It's confusing to me that he says some things that suggest they are together (living together, at the lake, wearing rings, going to MC) but then she hasn't even admitted to an A, or ANY wrong doing, or possibly has a strong desire to even fix the M? Ovr, what is happening exactly? Because you disappear on us and it's still unclear. Are you living in limbo and taking her scraps and just don't know what to do now? Because we really CAN HELP you. I know we can. But you need to start with giving more info and allowing yourself to be vulnerable here. I think you know that somehthing is very wrong here, but perhaps you don't want us to know. I want to know. I want to help you. I hope you will let me....
Blu
Sorry for the misunderstanding. I was actually agreeing with AS that it takes a long time. Sometimes well into Ring.
Steve, I actually agree with you and AS that "true" remorse comes later, possibly many months or years, especially after they see things more clearly and begin to acknowledge how bad things were. I guess that's true for all of us; when we remove ourselves from a situation and reflect back on it, we can see it more objectively. My concern for Ovr is that his W is still in a wayward mindset and hasn't reached step one.
Ovr, thank you for the clarity. I'll admit, I'm not sure what the best advice is. Have you read Sandi's new post on piecing? When you read the list of conditions, where do you see your W in that list? Is she at all? Becuase I think the starting point of reconciliation is when your WW comes to you and shows vulnerability and wants to atone. That in my opinion is step one and cannot be skipped over.
It seems she is back physically, but there is still an element of denial about her part in this. That is why I said she still has a waywardness to her. Even if she's not currently with OM, she still hasn't owned up to her mistakes or that it was a mistake. My fear is also that she could run right back at any time. I think eventually you will tire of these games and you may even be the one to give up. That might be the point -- when she realizes she is loosing you -- that she is willing to commit herself to you and "do whatever it takes."
I think you have your work cut out for you here. Unfortunately the way things progressed, she has become accustomed to doing whatever she wants (disrespecting you) and knowing she can still have you there. I think it's going to be harder than if you had started out with firmer boundaries. My advice to you now would be to continue with the DB rules, the 180s and especially the GAL. I don't think R talks or MC will help at this point. If she throws a fit about it, you can tell her in a matter of fact way that you have been thinking a lot and you need more of a commitment from her first. Then you can end the convo and create some space. Less words are better than more! It's okay for her to feel frustrated and wonder what she needs to do. If she is committed to you, she will do the work. Does that feel like something you can do?
Blu
I have read Sandi's post on piecing, obviously I was thinking to myself I'm not there. My W is definitely in denial over her part, and I fear that she may run back to OM anytime as well.
I wish I would have been thinking more clearly every time she came back and not jumped back into things so fast. I have created a negative pattern by doing that so that's not good. And yes, she is disrespectful. I think I reinforced a negative pattern Sunday on our way to breakfast at a restaurant. Something reminded her of a negative thing in our past, started a talk, and it was not good. She yelled at me again, so I turned around. Then I stopped the car in the neighborhood and we talked for a while, then went out to eat. I know I didn't handle that too well. And I even knew it right then and there, but now I need to have the strength to act.
I can keep up DB, my 180s, and get back to GAL. I'm ok with that. We have MC scheduled for tomorrow. I told her that if she was coming back we had to do MC (among other things), so if I back off it what will that say? But yes, I'm still weary of MC b/c of her lackluster commitment. On a positive for W, she is going back to her IC this week. At least she's trying to get better.
Those are good news Ovr. You need to be patient there. Movement at this stage should be measure with astronomical scales...
Thanks for the reply Neffer.
I'm sitting in my office typing this, but W just screamed F you at me and was crying. Why? Well, I didn't get my sister's Hulu login in for her. She asked the other day and then she asked 45 minutes ago. I was busy making dinner (which I made for W as well while she didn't lift a finger). She went off on me b/c she didn't want to watch my show b/c she doesn't like that. And she wants to watch her show and another show and now it's this time and the episodes are an hour long.
Sounds like something a reasonable person would start a fight over. I can't wait to get this training done so I can get out and get busy.