http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2789193&page=11I haven't had much to post, so I've not posted much. Things are moving along pretty well these days. For those of you who haven't read my sitch (and I don't expect you to), I've been going thru this a long time. Two and a half years since she filed and one and a half since she moved out. I have done pretty well with GAL and personal growth, but have had a very hard time detaching.
We had a long session with a mediator yesterday, and I think we have a settlement agreement. Of course the devil is in the details, but the financial piece is sorted, and we agree on the rest. It was all very anticlimactic.
There's a girl I've been dating, and she's very nice. We get along well, and she's going thru a divorce too, so we relate, and vent to each other.
Two things from my last thread are important now. First, in late August, we, W, and I, drove S18 to college, 11 hours each way, and W and I drove back alone. I was dreading it, but it was a very pleasant experience. I put no pressure on her, and when she dropped me off at home, commented on how she'd been dreading it, too, but how much she'd actually enjoyed it.
Second, about a month ago, shortly after our trip, and when we were very close to reaching a settlement agreement, I thought about talking to my W, explaining what I've learned about my failings and my contributions to the failure of our marriage, and asking if she'd consider one last counselling session and work with me to try and save our marriage. So I wrote down what I wanted to say, and read it after a mediation session last month. Her only reply was to ask for the paper I read from. We drove away, and I figured, that was that. I thought, "Right, I gave it a last, best shot, got nowhere, and it's time to move on with my life", put it out of my mind, and over the years, I've reached a point where I'm pretty detached.
So we're walking out to our cars after agreeing on the divorce settlement yesterday, and she says she's thought about what I told her after the other mediation session, says how much she enjoyed our road trip, and she said she'd like to talk about what I wrote.
I don't know if this will lead anywhere. I have low expectations because I don't see her as willing to do the work required, but who knows....
Keep those expectations nonexistent. Be prepared to listen, validate. Ask questions to understand her position. Don't get sucked in to R talk, don't get sucked in to an argument. Think before talking. Maybe think twice. Good luck
You say you are dating a nice girl who you relate to. I don't know your sitch, but if it resembles any of the many I have read on here wouldn't you be better off concentrating on her?
Jim, you've really grown over your time here and it's good to see you handling these last stages with grace. Of course you know that -normally- that letter would be a bad idea, but I think you're in a position now where it wasn't an act of desperation but one last attempt to do the honorable thing and save your M. So good for you. I think if nothing else it'll help you sleep better at night knowing that she knows your position.
You say you are dating a nice girl who you relate to. I don't know your sitch, but if it resembles any of the many I have read on here wouldn't you be better off concentrating on her?
I can kind of relate to where he's coming from because he and I are close to the same age and were married around the same amount of time. I've had a GF for 3 years now, she is beautiful and sweet and thinks the world of me. We have so much more in common than I did with my ex. But still, there is this nagging in the back of my head, this wondering if I could have done more to save my M. I don't know where it is coming from, but I think the best way to put it into words is I was 100% loyal to my ex, I was in the R for life, no looking back. This whole thing blind-sided me, I never expected it from the woman who loved me so much before BD. So even though she was the one that ended the R and M and apparently never looked back, that loyal side of me STILL wants to leave the door open. It's crazy, and to your point in my case I would be much better off just focusing all my attention on GF but it's damned hard to turn 25 years worth of feelings off for good.
Keep those expectations nonexistent. Be prepared to listen, validate. Ask questions to understand her position. Don't get sucked in to R talk, don't get sucked in to an argument. Think before talking. Maybe think twice. Good luck
You say you are dating a nice girl who you relate to. I don't know your sitch, but if it resembles any of the many I have read on here wouldn't you be better off concentrating on her?
All good advice. I find myself in the enviable position, though, that I'm detached enough, and have enough else going on, that unless she is really willing to do the work to reconcile, I don't have much interest anymore.
it wasn't an act of desperation but one last attempt to do the honorable thing and save your M. So good for you. I think if nothing else it'll help you sleep better at night knowing that she knows your position.
Exactly right.
I can kind of relate to where he's coming from because he and I are close to the same age and were married around the same amount of time. I've had a GF for 3 years now, she is beautiful and sweet and thinks the world of me. We have so much more in common than I did with my ex. But still, there is this nagging in the back of my head, this wondering if I could have done more to save my M. I don't know where it is coming from, but I think the best way to put it into words is I was 100% loyal to my ex, I was in the R for life, no looking back. This whole thing blind-sided me, I never expected it from the woman who loved me so much before BD. So even though she was the one that ended the R and M and apparently never looked back, that loyal side of me STILL wants to leave the door open. It's crazy, and to your point in my case I would be much better off just focusing all my attention on GF but it's damned hard to turn 25 years worth of feelings off for good.
Again, this is exactly right.
I spent some time last night thinking about this talk she wants to have, and I can honestly say that I have undergone a lot of introspection over the years, understand many of my failings in our marriage, am open to hearing about the failings I'm unaware of, and am willing to do everything I can to change and do better. BUT I am also acutely aware of her failings, and I am NOT willing to reconcile unless she brings the same willingness to change and meet my needs.
AS, thanks for sharing this. It makes me feel a lot better about my situation to know someone understands it.
AS, thanks for sharing this. It makes me feel a lot better about my situation to know someone understands it.
Absolutely! I'm not sure we'll ever get -completely- over this, it's like losing a loved one. You accept it and you move on but you don't erase the loss from your life, you just learn how to incorporate it into the complicated tapestry that is your life. And I think it makes us a little more savvy too. Even though I was 50 at BD I am a little surprised at just how naive I was to something like this happening to me.
Jim and AS, it helped me so much to understand your perspectives. I see the detachment you have achieved on your sides and want to get there, but in my heart I always know I will regret what happened, mourn what could have been and I was afraid that to feel this way was failing at DBing, but reading here helped me realize its not. Getting over someone doesnt mean you wipe out all the memories, it shouldnt be, there are some beautiful moments and joys that none of us may experience ever again, so we should cherish them and be thankful that we had an opportunity to experience them.
Jim, the one last try was being true to yourself, it was the conviction you have, it is the never quitting attitude you carry through life because you are a survivor. It takes courage to do it and detachment to be able to accept the results. If she agrees you are opening up yourself to some more challenges, pain and vulnerability as we all know R is just as hard as initial S. If she is not open to it, you have the satisfaction of knowing you gave it your all. You are a victor either way. Good luck, I hope you keep us posted so we learn from your experiences and offer you our support.
Sia, I'm glad I could help. I also regret what happened, and mourn what could have been. I honestly believe that I wouldn't have been able to see my faults, though, if she hadn't filed and moved out. That's the real shame.
I really do have the satisfaction of knowing it gave it my all, but suffer from knowing it was too probably little, too late. Just like in the books, if an approach didn't work, it was because I wasn't trying hard enough, rather than being the wrong approach. So I tried harder, and achieved nothing.
Anyway, it's funny, but she hasn't contacted me to talk, and I don't really care. Last night I was thinking about the separation agreement that the mediator sent over, and I was thinking about the future. I could picture the future without W. She'd be welcome, but she's not required. That got me to thinking about do I even really want her back. I don't really know. If she's willing to work and try to meet my needs, maybe. Otherwise, I'm not really bothered.
Jim, I just found your thread. Your update is interesting to read. I wonder when your wife will contact you to talk? There must be some last conversation you two will have before the final divorce papers get signed. I hope you'll let us know what happens.
NIcole, I don't know if she'll ever contact me to have "that" talk. We text all the time, coordinating schedules and giving updates on D16, but I keep them to the subject at hand. Our mediator has scheduled one more session to iron out the details of an issue that has come up. Honestly, it could be done over email, and I don't particularly care about going. I don't know why W isn't responding more diligently to these emails, but it doesn't really matter.
We just finished our last mediation session; the mediator is forwarding the agreed-upon document to our lawyers. At the end, I was all like "Yeah, check that box! Finally got it done! Moving forward!" And then I got teary eyed on the way home. Don't know what that means.
We just finished our last mediation session; the mediator is forwarding the agreed-upon document to our lawyers. At the end, I was all like "Yeah, check that box! Finally got it done! Moving forward!" And then I got teary eyed on the way home. Don't know what that means.
How dare you have feels! Now put on a somber face and get back out there! Just kidding, hey this is all so freakin' emotional to go through. If crying is the only fallout you experience then I'd say you're doing just fine :-)
Jim.....I cried standing in front of the judge as my xw read her script. I think it is natural as there is so much emotion involved, just the culmination of everything. Once it is final I would suggest you take a couple days to yourself. I took a couple of personal days afterwards and worked out, drank beer and ate pizza. It was therapeutic.
To recap, we're almost done with mediation, and are very close to an agreement. Leaving mediation a few months ago, I explained that I understood a lot of the ways I wasn't a good husband, and apologized. About a month afterward, she said she'd like to talk about the things I said. I said sure, let me know when, and left it at that. It took about another month, but she reminded me last week and we went to lunch on Friday. Nice lunch. I validated. I didn't make any demands. I know what I said had an impact. In general, I said it's no wonder counselling didn't work, because at the time, I *knew* I was a great husband, and therefore any change had to come from her. I acknowledged I looked to her to fulfill all my social needs, which put insane pressure on her. I said I understood how I violated her sense of safety and security and gave examples. I think we'll talk more, but it went well. We attended a party individually last night, were friendly, with no pressure from me.
Strange thing about the separation agreement. We reached an agreement with the mediator, who I don't think is a very good mediator, or lawyer. We each took it to our lawyers to review, and mine basically suggested some language that clears some things up, most of which will work in her favor, but he also strongly suggested that we add a clause that alimony terminates if she moves in with someone. I thought this was a no-brainer, and brought the changes up over lunch. She was fine with the clarifications, but said "no way" to the termination of alimony. We couldn't come to a resolution. Funny that this whole thing might be derailed because we disagree over something that I thought was a given. Maybe it just means more money for more mediation.
Jim, it sounds like you said the right things when you had lunch with your wife. What did she say? Did she accept any responsibility for her actions or indicate whether she wants to try again?
That's crazy your wife is the one who no longer wants you, yet she wants the alimony even if she moves in with someone new? That's so unethical!! Maybe you should just let her go!
Jim, it sounds like you said the right things when you had lunch with your wife. What did she say? Did she accept any responsibility for her actions or indicate whether she wants to try again?
That's crazy your wife is the one who no longer wants you, yet she wants the alimony even if she moves in with someone new? That's so unethical!! Maybe you should just let her go!
She seemed appreciative of my understanding of my failures, but didn't take responsibility for her actions. I suspect we will talk again. At this point, if we talk again, I'm not sure if I should say, "Hey, you are plenty responsible for part of our divorce, and if you aren't able or willing to admit that, and aren't remorseful and want to do better then I don't have much interest in reconciliation," or wait until she actually says she has interest in reconciliation before mentioning it to her. I don't want to sound presumptuous, but I also don't want her to feel like I waited for her to change her mind, and said, "Ha! Now I don't want to! Take that! Now
I'M the one who decided to divorce!"
And that bit about alimony continuing even if she moves in with someone is crazy. The more I think about it, the more certain I am that it MUST be in any agreement.
Quick update.... I have nothing to update. I haven't heard from her, and haven't contacted her, except one or two very short text convos about D16.
From Steve's thread:
I haven't replied because I've really been really thinking about what you said. I hear what you're saying about there not being an "AHA" moment, and her showing you that she got it. Problems I'm struggling with are 1) that we no longer live together, so there's little opportunity to see 180s on her part (I understand I will probably hear about changes in her behavior from friends/kids, etc.), and the kind of 180s I will see/hear won't give me any indication that she's interested in R, 2) in order for there to be a R, at this point, she would kind of have to come out and tell me she's interested in one, and I guess I don't care to give up what I've got going on without a commitment from her to do things differently, 3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
I'd love some further input.
1.No longer living together makes it tougher in some ways, easier in others. Either way it's out of your control so don't worry about it and spend that energy in a positive fashion. Or wallow in self-pity. The choice is yours. If she's interested in R, you will know it.
2. If she's interested in R, you will know it. (I'm noticing a trend....)
3. Sounds like it's out of your control.....(another trend...)
4. Who brought up counseling? DB coaches vs counselors doesn't matter all that much. They have different goals IMO. Either one's success will be much greater with a 2 person commitment than a 1 person effort. Why look for a MC when your W doesn't want MC? You like wasting your time and hurting your own feelings?
So that's it. Let go of what you can't control and work on what you can. Please tell me so more details about the last few contacts you've had with her, her attitude, what's been happening.
1.No longer living together makes it tougher in some ways, easier in others. Either way it's out of your control so don't worry about it and spend that energy in a positive fashion. Or wallow in self-pity. The choice is yours. If she's interested in R, you will know it.
2. If she's interested in R, you will know it. (I'm noticing a trend....)
3. Sounds like it's out of your control.....(another trend...)
4. Who brought up counseling? DB coaches vs counselors doesn't matter all that much. They have different goals IMO. Either one's success will be much greater with a 2 person commitment than a 1 person effort. Why look for a MC when your W doesn't want MC? You like wasting your time and hurting your own feelings?
So that's it. Let go of what you can't control and work on what you can. Please tell me so more details about the last few contacts you've had with her, her attitude, what's been happening.
Ya, I get that it's out of my control. I'm trying to move on and live my life like she's not coming back. Because of that, I'm at the point now, though, where I'm not really interested in trying to R unless she's willing to own her part in the failure of our marriage. I was curious how Steve's W showed she was willing, and then I was trying to explain that many of the avenues Steve's W used to show she was willing to work on the marriage were no longer open to me. The only avenue I see is my W having an "AHA" moment, which Steve suggests avoiding bringing up.
I guess I'm trying to avoid her saying "I'd like to R", and have my answer be "Ya, that's great, BUT..... I'm not, unless you are willing to work on your issues, too," because at this point I've finally achieved enough emotional distance, I don't want to go back to where my needs are no longer met, or she doesn't even attempt to meet them.
Maybe I'm trying to exercise some control over the situation, so I don't get it as much as I think I do......
As far as counseling goes, she brought it up. We were having lunch, discussing both the tentative separation agreement, and an epiphany I had and subsequent apology months ago regarding my culpability in the failure of our marriage (see earlier posts if interested.... don't want to recap here for brevity, but it was significant and apparently made an impression). She basically said if we did R, she didn't want to go back to counseling.
Something new.... W is on vacation out of the country, and has an abscessed tooth. She texted me asking me to get ahold of the dentist and make an appointment when she comes back. I'm conflicted between "sure" because I'm trying to leave the road to reconciliation open, "ok, but next time, it's a job for your husband or boyfriend, not the guy you are divorcing," and "NFW! This is a job for your husband or boyfriend, not the guy you are divorcing!"
Jim can she not use email, phone, or text to make her own appointment? She is texting you internationally can she not take care of it with the Dr. ?
Does she have an OM and is she on vacation with OM? If so then eff that noise.
If you and her are amicable co-parents and this is a favor she would return then I dunno maybe consider it. Otherwise tell her you will not be able to assist her with her medical needs and she should contact a family member to help her. She fired you as a H, would you help out our Er or a business partner one last time if they fired you?
Leave out all the rest of the stuff you mentioned it sounds petty. Keep it businesslike.
Just my 2 cents.
I was curious how Steve's W showed she was willing, and then I was trying to explain that many of the avenues Steve's W used to show she was willing to work on the marriage were no longer open to me. The only avenue I see is my W having an "AHA" moment, which Steve suggests avoiding bringing up.
I understand. I'll repeat that if they want it you will know it. And the rest is a cheeseless tunnel.
I guess I'm trying to avoid her saying "I'd like to R", and have my answer be "Ya, that's great, BUT..... I'm not, unless you are willing to work on your issues, too," because at this point I've finally achieved enough emotional distance, I don't want to go back to where my needs are no longer met, or she doesn't even attempt to meet them.
Ok, but you'll cross that bridge when and if you get to it. You won't lose that emotional distance either if you set and enforce a strong boundary like you said.
She basically said if we did R, she didn't want to go back to counseling.
My opinion is that she doesn't want to do the work. And/or she was trying to temp check you with the "if we did R" comment. Perfect time to validate, how did you respond?
She texted me asking me to get ahold of the dentist and make an appointment when she comes back.
You guys are separated right? She is seeing someone else? But she requests you to play H for her? Am I reading this correctly. I'm not sure how to respond. But someone will have a good one for you.
I'd probably say "I'm not comfortable with that as you are seeing someone else/getting a D".
I'd lean more towards leaving a hypothetical partner out of the whole statement.
Realistically, it's no one's job but her own and definitely something she can handle.
If you want to do it, that's your call, but DO NOT use that middle statement. ever.
Honestly, there's not a lot of ways you can say "No" nicely, so I'd just say something like
"you need to make your own appointments" and leave it at that.
I wouldn't get into a big wordy explanation why. That just seems counter productive.
OR
Just say "NO"
OR
Just don't respond
I like the boundary feeling of my above statement, though.
Twofeet and Mowgli, I hear you and this is why I'm so conflicted. There is no OM. I'm 100% sure of this. She's on vacation with her sister. When I had surgery recently, she would have helped in any way I needed, and in fact was a little upset that I didn't ask her. We are very amicable coparents, and she has no family in the U.S. This is not for just a regular checkup, but to treat an abscess, so while not an emergency, it is very time sensitive. Because of your inputs, whichever way I go, though, I will not mention it's a job for a husband or boyfriend. I think I will do it, and say 'In future, please make your own appointments."
I understand. I'll repeat that if they want it you will know it. And the rest is a cheeseless tunnel.
She basically said if we did R, she didn't want to go back to counseling.
My opinion is that she doesn't want to do the work. And/or she was trying to temp check you with the "if we did R" comment. Perfect time to validate, how did you respond?
She texted me asking me to get ahold of the dentist and make an appointment when she comes back.
You guys are separated right? She is seeing someone else? But she requests you to play H for her? Am I reading this correctly. I'm not sure how to respond. But someone will have a good one for you.
I'd probably say "I'm not comfortable with that as you are seeing someone else/getting a D".
You're right about cheeseless tunnels. I'm putting the cart before the horse, and if she wants to R, I'll deal with it then.
I think you're right in that she doesn't really want to do the work. I think my admissions and recognition of my faults (at long last) has intrigued her, but she doesn't quite believe them. As far as my response, it was about a month ago, so I don't remember exactly, but I think I said something like, "Ya, I don't think they did a very good job for us. But maybe we should talk about that later."
I'm not sure what I'll do about the appointment. We are separated, but she's not seeing anyone else.
Jim IMO make the appointment and after you do you can always have the conversation with her about how you fired me from that role and going forward this is something that I will no longer take on. I had to have the convo with my XW and ever since I did she has never asked. I think if you do it this way you are doing it with love vs what might come across as out of spite or anger or trying to stick it to her for what she has done.
My 10 cents.
From Steve's thread:
I haven't replied because I've really been really thinking about what you said. I hear what you're saying about there not being an "AHA" moment, and her showing you that she got it. Problems I'm struggling with are 1) that we no longer live together, so there's little opportunity to see 180s on her part (I understand I will probably hear about changes in her behavior from friends/kids, etc.), and the kind of 180s I will see/hear won't give me any indication that she's interested in R, 2) in order for there to be a R, at this point, she would kind of have to come out and tell me she's interested in one, and I guess I don't care to give up what I've got going on without a commitment from her to do things differently, 3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
I'd love some further input.
1.No longer living together makes it tougher in some ways, easier in others. Either way it's out of your control so don't worry about it and spend that energy in a positive fashion. Or wallow in self-pity. The choice is yours. If she's interested in R, you will know it.
2. If she's interested in R, you will know it. (I'm noticing a trend....)
3. Sounds like it's out of your control.....(another trend...)
4. Who brought up counseling? DB coaches vs counselors doesn't matter all that much. They have different goals IMO. Either one's success will be much greater with a 2 person commitment than a 1 person effort. Why look for a MC when your W doesn't want MC? You like wasting your time and hurting your own feelings?
So that's it. Let go of what you can't control and work on what you can. Please tell me so more details about the last few contacts you've had with her, her attitude, what's been happening.
Jim, on #1 you DB for you, not her. If she notices then awesome. If not, you will be ready for the future!
#2 no, she won't have to come out and tell you. She'll have to come out and SHOW you. Remember, never believe what she says.And only half of what she does/ Do not trust her until she shows consistent behavior over a long period of time.
#3, she either will or won't. If she wants to R she will eventually.
#4, what do you want? Is MC part of your requirements for R? If so then stick to it, regardless of what she says. Remember, if she comes back you want her to be open to any and all stipulations. She doesn't get to dictate the terms of her return.
Something new.... W is on vacation out of the country, and has an abscessed tooth. She texted me asking me to get ahold of the dentist and make an appointment when she comes back. I'm conflicted between "sure" because I'm trying to leave the road to reconciliation open, "ok, but next time, it's a job for your husband or boyfriend, not the guy you are divorcing," and "NFW! This is a job for your husband or boyfriend, not the guy you are divorcing!"
Seeing as there is no OM, my attitude on stuff like this that's kind of a grey area of DBing is this: hold true to yourself. Personally if my ex asked for a favor like this that is something quite inconvenient for her (being out of the country) and no big deal for me (it's just a phone call) I wouldn't hesitate to do it. I think you are at the point that you can do it with no expectations, so no harm.
I tend to agree with AS. My original answer was "You fired me as you H, and that is something a H would do." But I like AS's approach better IN THIS CASE.
Yeah man,
If you feel like doing it, then do it.
I was just saying that if you decide not to, don't try to explain yourself or your actions away. That's weak.
Just do it Jim. You are a good guy, it’s all about you now.
Guys, I want to thank each and every one of you for your input. In the end, it wasn't hard, so I made the appointment, but will have a chat with her when she gets back so it doesn't become something she expects in the future.
From Steve's thread:
[quote=Jim1234]
I haven't replied because I've really been really thinking about what you said. I hear what you're saying about there not being an "AHA" moment, and her showing you that she got it. Problems I'm struggling with are 1) that we no longer live together, so there's little opportunity to see 180s on her part (I understand I will probably hear about changes in her behavior from friends/kids, etc.), and the kind of 180s I will see/hear won't give me any indication that she's interested in R, 2) in order for there to be a R, at this point, she would kind of have to come out and tell me she's interested in one, and I guess I don't care to give up what I've got going on without a commitment from her to do things differently, 3) she's not one to admit, even to herself, that she was wrong, and 4) a month ago when we talked, she was very clear that she didn't want to go to counseling again. I can't say the counsellors helped, so I can see why she feels that way. They weren't really DB coaches. I'd look for one, but doubt I will get her to go.
Jim, on #1 you DB for you, not her. If she notices then awesome. If not, you will be ready for the future!
#2 no, she won't have to come out and tell you. She'll have to come out and SHOW you. Remember, never believe what she says.And only half of what she does/ Do not trust her until she shows consistent behavior over a long period of time.
#3, she either will or won't. If she wants to R she will eventually.
#4, what do you want? Is MC part of your requirements for R? If so then stick to it, regardless of what she says. Remember, if she comes back you want her to be open to any and all stipulations. She doesn't get to dictate the terms of her return.
Steve, I was really talking about HER 180s, not mine. I'm doing mine for me, but what I meant was that since we don't live together any more, it is harder for me to see any changes in HER behavior. The 180s I will hear about are things like maybe she's going to the gym, or fastidiously cleaning the house, but they won't show any desire to R by themselves.
I guess really, I am trying to plan out and control the reconciliation, and I really just need to let go; if it happens, it happens, and I'll deal with it then.
Joseph9, it's nice to hear from you again. How are you getting along?
Steve, I was really talking about HER 180s, not mine. I'm doing mine for me, but what I meant was that since we don't live together any more, it is harder for me to see any changes in HER behavior. The 180s I will hear about are things like maybe she's going to the gym, or fastidiously cleaning the house, but they won't show any desire to R by themselves.
Okay, I understand. You want to see what 180s she is doing so you'll know if she wants to R.
Here is your answer, when she wants to R YOU WILL KNOW. She will make sure of it. there will be no doubt about it. So you don't have to witness 180 to know that.
I guess really, I am trying to plan out and control the reconciliation, and I really just need to let go; if it happens, it happens, and I'll deal with it then.
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Hey J....doing well, every day gets a little easier. Been dating for about 5 months now. Been on roughly 9 dates or so but nothing that has materialized to anything significant. XW is still mostly cold than hot, she has BF now and they have been together for probably 5 or 6 months. I have still not met him nor has he shown his face around my kids events so I am not sure what to make of it. All in all life is going really good, my girls are happy, I am still working out, playing basketball and still deep into personal development. It really sucked early on but it has been the most transformational period of my life. I am a much better man today for it.
So no response from your W on the letter you gave her?
Hi all you Newcomers,
I'm so sorry to find you on this forum, but listen to the wise advice of the veterans. They know what they're talking about!
If any of the moderators see my post, or Sandi2, you can probably help me.... I haven't been on in so long that I can't find a way to pull up my previous threads. Is there a way to do that? I tried a search but couldn't get anything to pop up.
(Also Jim1234 and Joseph9, I believe you guys were just arriving about the time I stopped posting. It is WONDERFUL to see how your attitudes and perspectives have grown so much over that time. I'm so VERY proud of you both!
Steve, thanks for your insights and support. I am overthinking this, and will just let things happen.
Thanks LeahSue. I remember you from those days. You, like AnotherStander, always had sage advice. I seem to be one of the last of the group that got on here at that time. Most, like Joseph9 have resolved their divorces, and mostly moved on. Not even Doodler is on very often anymore! I'm almost done with my D, too. Just waiting for a response to my lawyer's suggested changes to the Settlement Agreement. It's been a long time. Because of that, even I don't check in here all that often anymore.
J9, You are a great dad, and your kids are lucky to have you in their lives. You have a lot of reasons to be proud of yourself in the way you handled your D. It will be interesting the first time you meet XW's boyfriend, but I'm sure you will handle it in the same respectful and honorable way you have done everything. Dating can suck. No doubt about it. But it can also be fun. Kids sure do add another dimension from what I was used to!
As far as a response from W regarding what I wrote and told her, we talked about it a bit, and she seemed very intrigued and receptive to it, but there's been nothing mentioned since. Certainly nothing to indicate that she'd be receptive to stopping the D. Unless and until there is some concrete evidence she wants to reconcile, I'm just going to await her response to the Settlement Agreement, and continue doing what I'm doing.
I think that's the best course of action.
Yeah... even more importantly, I suspect it's the ONLY real option.
Hi Jim, interesting to hear there's a little spark of interest from your wife yet she's not taking any action to stop the divorce. At least the divorce process has gone on so long that you've both had plenty of time to reflect. I guess after living apart for so long it's hard to imagine what reconciling could be like. Seems whatever will happen in the future it'll happen slowly just like my situation.
Ya NIcole, I'm not sure how reconciliation would work at this point either, but I'm not going to worry any more about something that will probably never happen.
As part of the settlement negotiation, she recently sent an email saying she would agree with the financial terms, but that meant she would never be able to fund 50% of the kids' college tuition. She intimated she was struggling financially, while my career arc will allow me to make "tons of money".
She's still stumbling over the cohabitation thing. Her attorney let her know it was usual to stop alimony in the event of cohabitation. She knows I want to get this agreement in place this year because of the tax benefit, and included a veiled threat to drag it out if I don't capitulate on the cohabitation clause.
She closed by saying she still wants a "decent" relationship with me and staying friends is more important than the money.
I tried to use DB techniques in my reply. I started by saying that I didn't want the divorce, I have done everything I could to leave the door to reconciliation open, and suspect that she doesn't believe the changes to be sincere or lasting. I told her I couldn't be friends anymore because it was keeping me from gaining the emotional distance I need to move on and I carry with that the false hope of reconciliation. As part of that, she needed to find someone else to lean on, and do things like make appointments for her.
I told her my lawyer informed me that because we have a support agreement in place, the settlement agreement didn't need to be in place by year's end, and I didn't appreciate the threat to drag it out if I didn't capitulate. "I am not going to agree to continue to pay alimony if you are living with someone else. End of story." I told her we could agree on everything else and ask a judge to rule on just this one issue.
I told her how sorry I was that she was having trouble making ends meet, but I validated how I was sure she would be able to cope financially. I told her that our financial picture had changed, and maybe the kids would have to share some of the burden of their educations. I showed how I wasn't making tons of money because I was the one paying for almost everything for the kids.... cell phones, cars, car maintenance, health insurance, auto insurance, extracurriculars, big family home, summer school, lawyer for son, etc. I suspect the suggestion of making the kids pay a portion of their education to cover her shortfall came as a surprise, and the reminder of what I'm paying for didn't matter one bit.
This exchange took place a few days before Thanksgiving, and I haven't heard back yet.
You handled that well Jim. Hope your weekend is going well.
J9, You are a great dad, and your kids are lucky to have you in their lives. You have a lot of reasons to be proud of yourself in the way you handled your D. It will be interesting the first time you meet XW's boyfriend, but I'm sure you will handle it in the same respectful and honorable way you have done everything. Dating can suck. No doubt about it. But it can also be fun. Kids sure do add another dimension from what I was used to!
Thanks Jim.....I don't worry too much about it any more. It was hard taking the high road early on because all you want to do is punish them for what they did but with hindsight it was absolutely the right thing to do. Once the emotions stabilize it becomes very clear.
I don't worry too much about her BF any more. I am sure it will still be a little tough if/when I meet him for the first time but I think I am about 90% detached from the situation. I know I am not completely out of the woods yet but I am getting close. I think once I see her with another man, maybe kiss him, holding his hand or whatever that will help the last domino fall into place. Really as long as he is good to my girls that is the most important thing.
I think you handled yourself well in your most recent communication with your wife. From an outsider looking in, based on what you type, it really does appear that it is her bag of monkeys. I think cutting her off from being her errand boy, maintenance man and appointment maker is the right thing to do for yourself at this juncture. Maybe you can re-engage later down the road once you feel like your in a good place.
ovrrnbw, thanks for the words of encouragement.
J9, it just seems like when we're "done", here comes another hurtle. We're done with the separation agreement, oh, except she wants alimony still if she moves in with someone.... your divorce is final, but then you have to see her with b/f for the first time..... all while trying, but not quite fully detached. I think you are doing a great job, and keeping things in perspective.
We were texting back and forth yesterday trying to figure out a way to get s18 back to college, and she drops one text that says she'll go with my requests for the separation agreement, but has some things to check with her lawyer. I don't know what that means. I hope she's given up her demand to continue to receive alimony if she moves in with someone or remarries. I'll email her later and ask for clarification, but other than that, the texts were polite, constructive and pleasant.
Jim,
Your situation is pretty amusing. Your wife definitely takes her time deciding things. It seems so unfair that she even wants alimony at all considering she's leaving you. You're also paying for a lot for your kids. It seems like you're generous and fair so your wife needs to appreciate all that you've already agreed to offer!
Jim, your sitch is in a state where every one reaches eventually I guess. Pleasant, non adversarial but your W seems full of guilt and confusion. You being so calm and centered I am sure is throwing her off balance but its her problem. Knowing that you stood for your MR, owned your mistakes, did everything you could to save the MR and family for your S must make you peaceful at the same time these are exactly the things your W did not do so she has to bear this burden. Continue being strong, good luck
Nicole and Sia, thanks for your support. I feel like I've done what I can, and I feel about as good as I can about how I've handled myself. Not perfect, but I've done pretty well, I think.
As an update, Monday, S18 was supposed to go back to college. W cancelled his return flight thinking we could get him back to school another way much cheaper. Under the circumstances, I would have done the same thing. It didn't pan out, and when the weather imploded in Chicago Monday morning, the cheapest we could get him a ticket was for about $800. We worked together pretty well, found a much cheaper option flying from a secondary airport quite a distance away, and I spent about 6 hours driving back and forth and waiting with him. Totally worth it. Enjoyed my time with S18.
When I picked him up at W's though, I told both W and D17 that I didn't want D17 driving the car I bought for her birthday back and forth to school until she had a little more practice and experience. The new plates came in yesterday, so today I texted W to let her know I was going to drive over to her house and change the plates. She texted back that D17 took the car to school. W said she could. I called her, and while I know my voice was a little louder than it probably should have been, I was able to talk calmly and rationally. At least I think I was calm and rational. W might disagree. In the end, we disagree about whether D17 should be allowed to drive to school, but W acknowledged she had no right to tell D17 she could drive my car to school. I asked W to let me know when D17 was home, so I could come and get my car. D17 came by with it, we had a talk about how I thought she needed more experience, and how I didn't appreciate D17 playing W and me against each other. D17 got out at W's, gave me a hug, and wished me a good weekend.
Also, while we were texting back and forth about flight options for S18, she slipped one in saying she'd accept my proposed changes to the separation agreement. I didn't ask her about it until today, but she asked for 24 hours to decide whether she should use the QDRO money to buy her house outright, or refinance. This was right after our talk about the car, and very casual. Apparently she even accepts that I won't continue to pay alimony if she moves in with someone. So I hope tomorrow afternoon I can sign the separation agreement.
It’s true Jim there is one hurdle after another it does seem to come in waves. I remember early on processing her moving out, then processing her dating, then processing our first holiday not as a family, then processing her selling the engagement ring, then processing separating our finances, then processing meeting with the L, then processing standing in front of the judge, then her telling me she has a BF....etc. I will say though as you get more detached each domino falling becomes easier. Outside of BD the hardest one for me to accept and process was my daughters meeting her BF. They never talk about him but that was a real hard one to accept.
My X also wanted to be friendly with me.....she didn’t tell me about her BF until after I helped her move from her apt into her condo. That was a kick in the nuts. I did tell after I moved her in that I was done being her maintenance man, etc. which was hard to do at first but after I communicated that to her I did feel a sense of relief.
My w ended up using her portion of our home equity and taking out half of her 401k proceeds through the QDRO to use a down payment and get herself set up. Oh and to buy new boobs as well
I also think it is fairly common for alimony to not be paid if they get married or live with another person. I have a friend who is D and that is in his decree for his XW as well.
FWIW I think you have done a great job and have lovingly detached in an appropriate way. Hang in there!!!!
It’s true Jim there is one hurdle after another it does seem to come in waves. I remember early on processing her moving out, then processing her dating, then processing our first holiday not as a family, then processing her selling the engagement ring, then processing separating our finances, then processing meeting with the L, then processing standing in front of the judge, then her telling me she has a BF....etc. I will say though as you get more detached each domino falling becomes easier. Outside of BD the hardest one for me to accept and process was my daughters meeting her BF. They never talk about him but that was a real hard one to accept.
My X also wanted to be friendly with me.....she didn’t tell me about her BF until after I helped her move from her apt into her condo. That was a kick in the nuts. I did tell after I moved her in that I was done being her maintenance man, etc. which was hard to do at first but after I communicated that to her I did feel a sense of relief.
My w ended up using her portion of our home equity and taking out half of her 401k proceeds through the QDRO to use a down payment and get herself set up. Oh and to buy new boobs as well
I also think it is fairly common for alimony to not be paid if they get married or live with another person. I have a friend who is D and that is in his decree for his XW as well.
FWIW I think you have done a great job and have lovingly detached in an appropriate way. Hang in there!!!!
Thanks. I haven't been through the boyfriend issue yet. I can't really imagine that at this point. Hope I never have to, but I suspect it will become a thing at some point. That was pretty ballsy of your ex to get you to help move and then tell you about the BF. I feel good about having told her I can't be her friend, and arrange her appointments. Like you said, a sense of relief.
Still waiting on her decision as to how she's going to get my name off her house. Last Wednesday, she said she'd have an answer for me in 24 hours, but here we are, almost a week later. I texted this morning and asked "what's up with the QDRO? I'd really like to get this done." She promised she'd address it with her lawyer and get back to me....
BTW she accepted that she won't get alimony if she moves in or remarries, so we're in complete agreement; she just needs to tell me what she wants to do with the QDRO so we can get the wording into the Separation Agreement.
Hi Jim,
That all sounds like progress. You are an expert by now on all aspects of the divorce process. Somehow, of all the walkaway spouses we hear about on this forum, your wife sounds the least likely to join the dating pool and move in with someone but I guess at some point everyone gets tired of being alone. I hope the last part of the separation agreement can get in place soon for you.
Quick update. I'm meeting with the mediator tomorrow to rewrite the section of the separation agreement regarding using the QDRO money to pay off her house, instead of withholding the QDRO money until she refinanced. I anticipate that it should be a piece of cake, as we've already agreed via email as to how we want it. We could have the separation agreement signed by tomorrow afternoon.
I'm not dreading it. I just want to get it done at this point. After all, it's just a piece of paper.
Every little step makes things better. You are probably going to feel at least some relief as the paperwork and adminstrative stuff gets finished up. It's like a chore you know you have to do.
You seem to be doing well, though!
Jim,
Good luck. I don't quite understand why they call it a separation agreement - is that what you mail off to get divorced?
I don't know either. Seems like it should be called "The Divorce Agreement", but that's just how the mediator and our lawyers refer to it, so.... I don't know about mailing it off, but her lawyer should take the signed original to court, and it basically becomes the legally binding terms of the divorce. Who gets what, and so on. Others with more experience can chime in, but I think there is a little other paperwork, but not much.
Yesterday I met with the mediator. W didn't show up. I called and she said she was too ill. The mediator and I talked about the changes, and wrote them up. I called her back to make sure the changes met with her approval, and they did. I'm about to ask her if she's still too ill to go to a notary and sign it.
Others with more experience can chime in, but I think there is a little other paperwork, but not much.
It varies quite a bit from state-to-state. Here in TX there is no legal process for separation, only divorce. Other states have separate paths to follow for separation versus divorce. Sounds like where you are separation is part of the D process.
In TX if things are amicable you can prepare the D decree yourselves, then you just show up in court and both tell the judge you agree to the terms and boom, that's it you're D'd. There's really not much to it unless the terms are in dispute.It does help to have a L to help you navigate the process though, they know the ins and outs and what the judge is looking for and where to file the papers and all that.
tell the judge you agree to the terms and boom, that's it you're D'd. There's really not much to it unless the terms are in dispute.It does help to have a L to help you navigate the process though, they know the ins and outs and what the judge is looking for and where to file the papers and all that.
Here in PA there is no legal separation either,but the Separation Agreement is just a statement of the terms, confirming they are not in dispute. I'm going to let her L navigate the process from here so I don't have to. Thanks for all your support over the years, AS.
W and I met at the bank yesterday to sign/notarize the Separation Agreement. We needed a witness, so a mutual friend came by later and signed the agreement. I'm going to drop it off at her house right now. Bittersweet. People keep saying "congratulations" and "I'm so happy for you", but I don't really feel "happy" about it. It's just one more part of the process to endure.
Hi Jim,
I know PA well. Too bad this isn't really the place to ask specifics about where you live but PA is a wonderful state.
I hope those days of filling out paperwork and pouring over little details are almost over. You seem to be handling it well. What are your plans for the holidays?
Nicole, I had the kids for Thanksgiving, so they are going to be with me through Christmas Eve church service, then they'll go over to W's and I'm going to head a few hours south to where my family lives and spend it with them. What about you? I know you feel isolated. Do you have family or friends to share the holidays with?
You have done a long journey Jim. Enjoy the kids when you have them and enjoy your family.
Stay strong there.
Just some journaling....
I don't know if W gave a copy of the Separation Agreement to her lawyer. Don't really care.
I got back late the evening of the 23rd from work, and expected S19 and D17 to be at my house to celebrate Christmas Eve one day early, as we were going to open presents and go to church on the 24th, because they were going back to W's after church through the 27th. I was hoping to spend the evening sitting by the fire, watching a Christmas movie, and sipping hot chocolate (we had talked about this), but by 11pm, I was exhausted and went to bed. They didn't show up until about 1230 am. With that much time to sit and ponder, I started feeling sorry for myself and getting emotional.
The next morning, I had to get up early to do things like grocery shop before waking them up to open gifts and get to church. Presents and church went really well, and we enjoyed ourselves immensely. After church, they went to W's and I drove a few hours south to spend Christmas with my parent's and brothers in D.C. I had a long ride to feel pretty miserable about life.
Christmas was nice, though. Went to one brother's for brunch, and stayed until about 5pm, when I went to another brother's for a visit. Everyone was very supportive.
I left on the 26th to drive home because I had to go to the dentist and W had to travel for work on the 27th. I was expecting the kids to be here today (I talked to them about being here this afternoon before they went to W's), but just spoke to them both and they are off doing their own things and will be here later.
On the whole, it was a nice Christmas, but I spent too much time in the car pondering how miserable this situation is.
I've spent almost no time at home since mid November, and can't wait to flop on the couch for a day tomorrow.
Hi Jim,
The holidays are really tough. Sounds like your kids are also pretty independent now which must be a new feeling compared to when they were younger and always with you and your wife. You have a right to feel miserable during times such as these because you never wanted this. Going from a family of four to just being on your own with part-time kids is a difficult adjustment. At least the holidays are soon over and there's the hope of the new year being better than the last.
I have been doing pretty well, but the last few days were really rough. I've snapped out of a bit today. We just have to keep on keeping on. It will get better.
Journaling:
The holidays are over; i survived. S18 spends most of his time with his friends or at work, waiting to go back to school. D17 is back to her routine, with the exception I'll talk about a little later..
W's lawyer has filed the separation agreement and QDRO paperwork. Afterward, I had some issues with W's lawyer sending letters to Domestic Relations inaccurately quoting our separation agreement, requesting alimony be raised by invoking a clearly inapplicable clause. Had to pay my lawyer to deal with that. W was travelling when it happened, but thru email, I let her know what was going on. She is pissed that her lawyer cost us both money for this. Initially, I asked to be compensated for my legal costs due to her lawyer's incompetence, but frankly, i am just tired of this, and told her that it's almost over and I would pay my lawyer if she would exercise a bit more control over hers.
So, it's almost over, and I'm resigned to it. I wish things were different, but they aren't, and I'm trying to move on with my life. Tonight I'm having a couple's poker party. Nickle, dime poker. It's really social hour with cards. Looking forward to it. W's not invited, of course. On the other hand, this woman I've been dating is. Things are going pretty well with her. She knows I'm not completely over my W, but I'm giving her what she wants, and she is patient with me. She has her own D issues, so we each listen with a sympathetic ear.
The only issue is that shortly after my last post, D17 had a car accident. She wasn't hurt; just a bit shaken. No one else was involved, thankfully, but there was some pretty good damage to the car. It's my car, so W doesn't have any say, thankfully. The car is being fixed, and D17 gets to enjoy the consequences of talking on her cell while driving, including not being able to meet her friends, and paying fines, 'cause I'm not driving her, or paying them. I'm not obstructing her from meeting her friends, but I am usually busy when she wants me to drive her somewhere. I've tried to be very loving in explaining the consequences of failing to pay the fine (my son said I am scaring her, so maybe I'm not doing as good a job as I think..... but she should be a little scared so maybe I'm doing it perfectly) and helpful in figuring out how to pay the fine, and whether it would be beneficial to plea down to a lesser charge (it isn't), but I've made it clear that it wasn't me driving and talking on my cell, and it's not my fine to pay. Hopefully, having to use all her birthday and Christmas money to pay the fine will also make a huge impression on her.
I got an interesting text from W after the poker party that she sent yesterday afternoon. "... Just so you now, if I was doing it and inviting all our mutual friends I would have included you." She's obviously upset I was having a party and she wasn't invited. Cake eating. Don't care. I've already told her via email that I can't be her friend anymore.
Hi Jim, it's amusing how your wife heard about the party. Does your wife know you're dating someone? If so I hope she realizes she can't be there alongside your girlfriend....she either has to work to get you back or she has to let you enjoy your time with a woman who wants to be with you. It can't be both ways! There's quite a bit of hypocrisy amongst some of the spouses here on this forum who want to get divorced and yet they expect to still be invited to events, or sleep over, or be friends, or whatever it is.
I'm glad to hear your daughter is ok. I admire you holding her accountable for her actions. I really hope I can be that way with my daughter someday. These are lessons they need to learn to be ready for the adult world.
By the way, I wanted to mention that I did check about a cheap phone for my daughter but they all had warnings on the boxes about cancer and reproductive harm. I didn't feel like I want my daughter handling something like that every day so I held off but I'll keep checking for alternatives. Thanks for the suggestion!
........It can't be both ways!.....
.......By the way, I wanted to mention that I did check about a cheap phone for my daughter but they all had warnings on the boxes about cancer and reproductive harm. I didn't feel like I want my daughter handling something like that every day so I held off but I'll keep checking for alternatives. Thanks for the suggestion!
Well, they want it both ways, and it's up to us to tell them so. More on that in a moment.
Regarding cell phones, I think every cell phone has that warning. Every single one, including yours. There has been speculation, but no concrete correlative evidence. You might be worrying about something with an infinitely small chance of happening. Of course, I support whichever decision you make.
Regarding having it both ways, my soon to be ex mother in law had a bad traffic accident last year that was her fault, and injured a number of pedestrians. Her preliminary court date was yesterday, and it didn't go well at all. I just got a text from xW the charges were severe enough the prosecutor got the case moved to a higher court, where the penalties can be much harsher. My 88 year old stbxMIL is devastated, and xW is "in tears, really upset. Devastated."
I dearly love stbxMIL, but don't particularly feel like being very supportive of W. I don't know if it's better to remain NC, or respond with something like "Wow. That is terribly upsetting. Thanks for the update," or something a bit more supportive of stbxMIL.
I work in the Mobile phone industry. You are bombarded daily with tons of radio signals even if you dont have a mobile phone. There is literally no difference in having one on you or not, you get hit with the same signal generated from the towers regardless.
Jim - I like the first response IMO. Wow, that is terribly upsetting. I am very sorry to hear or something along those lines.
Thanks, SoTorn. I hope you don't mind, but I posted a summary of what you said on Nicole's thread.
J9, in the end, that's about what I said. It seemed to be perfect, because I got back a pretty neutral response, mostly talking about taking care of our kids, which doesn't require an immediate response, so i won't
I dearly love stbxMIL, but don't particularly feel like being very supportive of W. I don't know if it's better to remain NC, or respond with something like "Wow. That is terribly upsetting. Thanks for the update," or something a bit more supportive of stbxMIL.
Given this previous comment you made:
"I've already told her via email that I can't be her friend anymore."
I would stick to something brief like your first comment.
That's pretty much what I said. I just added "please tell her she is in my thoughts and prayers." She replied with "I will," and then went on to talk about the snowstorm approaching NY and getting S18 back to college.
AS, I'm curious. Do you ever totally "get over" your ex? Or do you just move on?
That's pretty much what I said. I just added "please tell her she is in my thoughts and prayers." She replied with "I will," and then went on to talk about the snowstorm approaching NY and getting S18 back to college.
AS, I'm curious. Do you ever totally "get over" your ex? Or do you just move on?
Well I can't speak for everyone, but personally I feel like I did get over her. I'm not sure I can really convey how it "feels" to get to this point but I'll try with a few kind of random thoughts: I don't know if she's currently seeing anyone but she has dated quite a bit and sometimes talks to me about it and I have no weird feelings about it. It's like talking to a neighbor. We do stuff together with the kids sometimes, like for S16's bday we went and did a room escape thing, had dinner, played some games. We opened presents together at Christmas. It doesn't make me pine away for the "good old days" or make me wish we were still married, or anything like that. I think both of us just like having that "family time" now and then and then go back to our separate lives. Sure we do it for the kids, but I enjoy having her there and I think she likes me being there too. Neither of us goes out of our way to see each other, but since we still have shared custody of S16 we do see each other about once a week and we usually will sit down and catch up on stuff like old friends. I guess if I were to sum it up that's kind of what our relationship feels like now is "old friends". There's no anger or resentment or sadness or anxiety there. It's just kind of casually comfortable I guess. Does that make sense?
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I guess I'm still too angry and emotionally attached now. With time it is getting better, though.
Jim anything new going on....OLW
Hmmmm can't believe it's been this long since I logged on.
just journaling a little.
Still not divorced, but it is progressing. In December we agreed on a Separation Agreement and filed it with the court. The only real step left is the QDRO, and that just seems to be dragging on, but it's not contentious.
Emotionally, I'm doing better, and still gaining emotional distance. Not all the way there yet; sometimes I still get sad, angry, upset, but most of the time I'm just doing my own thing.
That includes dating. I've been with the same woman off and on for about a year and a half now. She's divorcing, too, so we help each other thru the steps. I'm not a very good boyfriend. I do enjoy her company, but.... I don't make her a priority, don't really want to, and she knows it. I'm not sure if I'm just still emotionally unavailable because of my ex and an unwillingness to open up and risk getting hurt again, or I'm just not all that interested in her.
Right now I'm struggling to deal with college financing issues that spill over into income tax issues. STBX made some decisions that are going to significantly reduce the assistance offered, and I'm trying to mitigate as much as I can. And no, I'm not doing it for her, although she will benefit. It's primarily to save me around $15,000 in tuition over the next 6 years, and will reduce each of my kids' student loans by about that amount.
On the upside, my kids, parents, brother, and his family have a beach house rented in June, so I"m looking forward to that. My girlfriend and I spent a week in Cancun last month. Financially, I'm doing well, and my kids seem to be really great.
Good to hear Jim. Keep the positive things as fuel to further move forward. You´ve done a long journey man. Keep on moving.
Enjoy time with family and kids!
JIm, good to get an update. There is light at the end of the tunnel! Onward and upward! I'll continue to pray for you and your S!
Hang in there Jim you were with the same woman for over 25 years. It is going to take you some time to fully move on and completely process. If you enjoy her company just be patient with yourself. There is no time table for any of this. Do what you want, when you want, and on your own terms. Just continue to hang out, hook up, and have fun.
I have been dating the same woman for almost 4 months now and my emotions still ebb and flow. She is completely different from my XW and that is taking some time to get used to. She is attractive, has a kind heart, is a giver so it is worth it to me to be patient with myself and see what develops. Her D and mine happened relatively close to each other so we are both on the same timeline which helps as well.
I will say that I have experienced more of an immediate connection and chemistry with other women but they didn't work out for different reasons. My kids are young as well so I have to also think about them in this equation and what type of person I bring into their lives. That person also has to be ok with me having my kids 50% of the time and are they willing to take on that responsibility?? I have learned there is more at stake.
You do have to be attracted but I think the rest can develop the more you get to know someone.
That includes dating. I've been with the same woman off and on for about a year and a half now. She's divorcing, too, so we help each other thru the steps. I'm not a very good boyfriend. I do enjoy her company, but.... I don't make her a priority, don't really want to, and she knows it.
Hey Jim, good to hear from you! I don't think you're being a bad BF, I think it's healthy to maintain a certain amount of detachment. Makes you more attractive as well as less susceptible to being hurt. I do the same with my GF. I use a LOT of DB'ing techniques in our relationship. Listen and validate, give her time and space, emotionally supportive when she needs it and not pushy when she doesn't. From what she tells me it drives her a little crazy and makes her want to work harder at making me happy. She says it keeps her interest in me piqued. I am way, WAY more of the alpha male with her than I was with XW- the older, mature rock for her to lean on. She loves calling me "daddy". Your relationship doesn't have to look like the one you had with your W for it to be successful!
On the upside, my kids, parents, brother, and his family have a beach house rented in June, so I"m looking forward to that. My girlfriend and I spent a week in Cancun last month. Financially, I'm doing well, and my kids seem to be really great.
Awesome!! That all sounds great!
So, there I was, living my new (I don't know about "awesome", but definitively "pretty good") life, and I get a text from STBX (no, it's still not final. Don't know why. The QDRO is just dragging on. We're just waiting on Schwab to confirm the draft QDRO is acceptable... and waiting..... and waiting.) saying "we need to talk." I'm thinking, "is she going to ask for more alimony? want me to pay a larger share of kid's college costs? is her mother dying?" and instead she hits me up with "We had this awesome future in front of us, and I want it back and I love you and I want to reconcile."
Awesome!!!!!! Right???
Except...... not......
I listened, I validated, used everything I've learned here over the years. We talked for about 2 1/2 hours before I finally said I'm emotionally drained, and have to go. The gist is that she's undergone ketamine therapy for her depression and it has been truly life changing, and caused her to rethink the last few years. (If you have a spouse that's severely depressed, look into it!) We talked extensively about some of the problems in our marriage, a lot about my failures as a husband, and some about her failures as a wife. She said the combination of ketamine therapy, and hearing from friends about a trip my girlfriend and I took to my parent's cabin a week ago opened her eyes, and she wanted the awesome life that we should be leading together back.
Regarding my failures, it became pretty clear that I have a very good understanding of them. Thanks AS et al for the 2X4s over the years. I asked if she could put them behind her and forgive me, and she said she does forgive me.
Regarding her failures, though, she doesn't really have a clue. The best she could give me was that "the divorce wasn't entirely your fault. I made a lot of mistakes." But when pressed, even after 8 years of marriage counselling, couldn't really give me specifics. More like "I reacted badly to things you did and didn't give you enough sex." For the record, my biggest issue was feeling like I was her last priority. I felt like as long as that paycheck kept showing up, it didn't really matter to her whether I had fallen off the planet. And yes, I told her that repeatedly in counselling.
She asked me for specifics, and I suggested she spend some time thinking about it instead. For me, having her or our therapist tell me my shortcomings wasn't nearly as impactful as figuring it out on my own (or with this forum's help!). I gave her two huge hints, though. 1. It wasn't until I started looking at things from her perspective that I started understanding my failures as a husband, and 2. I pointed out that she asked if we could meet somewhere she could smoke. I asked her to think about how important I was, from my perspective, relative to her cigarette. This is a big issue for me. For most smokers, smoking is just something else they do in their life. For her, her entire life revolved around her cigarettes.
At the end, I told her I didn't think a week of introspection was enough time for her to understand her failings relative to our marriage, and I was hesitant to reconcile, and find myself moving heaven and earth to make her happy, only to have her continue to leave my needs unfulfilled. I told her she should think some more about it, and we'd talk more later.
I stopped on the way home to reflect. My girlfriend knew I was meeting STBX, so I called her and VERY briefly told her about the conversation, and confirmed that I was still looking forward to getting together with her tomorrow. She was very understanding, and said she didn't want to stand in the way of my happiness. I assured her that she was an upgrade from STBX. In many, many ways, she is, but God help me, I'm still in love with STBX.
I guess the dream/fantasy of rebuilding, not just my marriage, but my family, is extremely powerful, and for a long sleepless night I struggled with that idea, not coming to any conclusions.
Anyway, thoughts, comments, 2X4s welcome.....
Hey jim......I can understand your feelings, in many ways I still love my xw. You guys have a lot of memories and history between you both. I am sure you have learned and grown a lot in the past two years. Do you think it's the idea of your xw that your in love with or is it really her, the person and all that is good and bad? If you just met her would she be the one? Do you think she is a capable of making the necessary changes and those changes will stick?
It's such a personal decision and really only one you can make.
I have merged your two threads together because your previous thread had only 79 postings. Please stick to one thread until you have reached 100 postings. You can change your subject line within a thread at any time.
JimR, wow!! Just wow. I have to admit, and as the manly outdoorsman I am, i don't admit this lightly, but I have tears welling up in my eyes reading this.
Overall, I think you handled it well. And unless I am not remembering properly, there were some spiritual issues involved, weren't there? Is she straightening those out? (Sorry if I am not remembering this right.) If that is correct I do not see any future possible without her shoring that up.
I am still processing. BUT, we need lots and lots of current posters to read this. We try to tell new posters all the time that D isn't the end of the world. That it is merely a step in the process. Sometimes the WAS has to go all the way through (or in your case almost all of the way) before they finally wake up.
I realize that you know this....but she has a lot of work to do, and the road back needs to be even more difficult than the road away. I truly believe that the best way to set yourself up for a future BD is to let the WAS comeback too easily. They need to prove to you and to themselves that they are in it for the long haul. So whatever you decide, make her do her work!
I feel bad for the GF. This is why I do not advocate dating again until after the D is final (slight 2x4 here). Well that and for me morally dating while still married, even if only legally, goes against my Christian sensibilities.
Keep us informed and up-to-date!
Wow.
I am one of the newer LBS's - 2.5 years into W's MLC, 11 months since I've been "out of the R", 4 months since BD and DB. Still IHS but my W is cutting bait quickly and on her way out the door soon.
This must be why they say it's not over till it's over.
One quick observation - and I dont know as much about things as others here, I'll fully admit that - but I do find it curious that this introspection only started after she heard about you and GF's trip.
That's all I got though.
Wow again.
Guys, thanks for the input.
Overall, I think you handled it well. And unless I am not remembering properly, there were some spiritual issues involved, weren't there? Is she straightening those out? (Sorry if I am not remembering this right.) If that is correct I do not see any future possible without her shoring that up.!
There are some spiritual issues, and that will have to be addressed.
I realize that you know this....but she has a lot of work to do, and the road back needs to be even more difficult than the road away. I truly believe that the best way to set yourself up for a future BD is to let the WAS comeback too easily. They need to prove to you and to themselves that they are in it for the long haul. So whatever you decide, make her do her work!!
That's one of the reasons I'm hesitant. She hasn't done any of the work to understand her failings as a wife, and her part in the failure of our marriage. I am not about to to just say "OK", and paper over all the issues. I've been through too much for that. I saw our marriage therapist yesterday, and she had some good suggestions such as requiring her to go to therapy as part of the process. She has a lot to prove to me that these changes are permanent, and that will take time.
I feel bad for the GF. This is why I do not advocate dating again until after the D is final (slight 2x4 here).
Yeah. Up until the other night, I was in the "date, but be honest with them about what's going on" camp, and now, knowing what's about to happen to the GF, I've changed my mind. The therapist also helped me realize that I am not fully detached yet from my wife, and now that my wife has reignited that issue, I need to address it before GF and I can really move forward. I don't want to let GF go, but if GF and I are ever going to have a relationship, it kind of needs to go through my wife. I know I worded that badly. Maybe "I need to try a reconciliation so wondering "what if" doesn't torpedo my GF's and my relationship in the future".
My suggestion. Tell GF that you need to break from her until you figure all of this out. It isn't fair to her to keep her "waiting in the wings" as Plan B.
Steve, I agree with you entirely. Well, almost entirely. We have tickets to see the Stones on the 1st of August. We've both been looking forward to that. I asked her to give me until then to make a decision, and she was fine with that. But I can't see her while I'm figuring this out. As she's said, she's not willing to be a placeholder girlfriend, and I have enough respect for her not to ask that of her.
And IronWill, you aren't the only one to note that her change of heart came after she heard about my trip to the cabin with my girlfriend!
Jim, that is awesome.
We rarely see WAWs wanting to reconcile, so your sitch is pretty unique. Please continue to keep us updated. I'm sure a lot of us will pay close attention your thread from now on (and root for you, LOL)
Good luck whatever route you decide to go.
Jim I have read your sitch from the beginning, I came to this site around the same time as you. I would also find it hard to R at this point but my W just keeps prolonging the D for whatever reason. Anyway take your time, this will be a very difficult decision for you to make. I wish you well.
Hi Jim,
It's been a while! I'm happy to read your update. I always had a strong suspicion that your wife would do this. She just didn't have any good reason to divorce you. Even your alleged shortcomings weren't a good reason. The way you described how you feel about the whole scenario makes sense. It would have been a dream-come-true if this happened a lot sooner. It's a really difficult choice. If the reason why all this happened was your wife's depression then I guess it's good she finally received treatment and she's making progress but it sounds like it's maybe still early in her recovery? I guess it'll take a while to figure all this out. I hope you'll keep us posted. I hope we can support you with your next steps!
Hey great news ...have any updates yet
oh wow Jim! Just caught up on your recent posts. What an update! You have so much to think about and I think you're taking good prudent steps. You've had a long journey and my only recommendation is to separate your emotions from reality and see what it actually there. I know this is hard to do, and you're getting an opportunity that all of us thought we wanted when we got here. But, like BH said, it would be hard for me at this point to reconsider a R with exW. Not sure where you fall on that scale of thought with all that has happened.
Keep us posted and I wish you all the best in your decision making process. It's not an easy one and I feel for your GF. It's great that you're upfront about it and not treating her like Plan B. Everyone deserves to be wanted, not be someone waiting in the wings.
All the best!
Hey Jim, I used to tell my brother after BD that my worst nightmare was that I would get in a serious new R and THEN my XW would want to recon, because in that scenario someone is getting hurt no matter what and the last thing I want to do is hurt someone the way my XW hurt me, even if it's my XW. I wouldn't wish that on her. So you're living out my worst nightmare! I think you handled the convo with XW quite well. Beyond that I would just say keep your guard up with her because it doesn't sound like she has shown you ANYTHING to indicate she's serious. All she did was say she changed her mind. Words are cheap. What work has she done on herself other than getting on some new meds? What has she done to try and earn your trust back? It doesn't sound like she's done anything so far. And like you said, she doesn't even seem to be aware that she needs to own some issues. Not good signs at all. I understand the lure to recon, there are always going to be feelings there. But I would be very hesitant to throw away your newer BETTER relationship to recon with someone who is more than likely still a train wreck.
my only recommendation is to separate your emotions from reality and see what it actually there. I know this is hard to do, and you're getting an opportunity that all of us thought we wanted when we got here. But, like BH said, it would be hard for me at this point to reconsider a R with exW. Not sure where you fall on that scale of thought with all that has happened.
Keep us posted and I wish you all the best in your decision making process. It's not an easy one and I feel for your GF. It's great that you're upfront about it and not treating her like Plan B. Everyone deserves to be wanted, not be someone waiting in the wings.
All the best!
I am trying very hard to think logically, and not emotionally. I have long struggled to emotionally disconnect from STBXW, and was mostly there when this bomb hit. I'm really trying to be upfront and fair to GF, but I just keep telling her I'm still thinking about it. It [censored] to be her right now, and I'm very sympathetic to that.
keep your guard up with her because it doesn't sound like she has shown you ANYTHING to indicate she's serious. All she did was say she changed her mind. Words are cheap. What work has she done on herself other than getting on some new meds? What has she done to try and earn your trust back? It doesn't sound like she's done anything so far. And like you said, she doesn't even seem to be aware that she needs to own some issues. Not good signs at all. I understand the lure to recon, there are always going to be feelings there. But I would be very hesitant to throw away your newer BETTER relationship to recon with someone who is more than likely still a train wreck.
All very good points. I can't keep the new GF dangling while giving STBXW the opportunity to earn my trust and show she's serious. I can't even guide STBXW on what her issues are without feeling like I'm betraying my GF. I keep leaning first one way and then the other. I'm leaving Saturday for a few days for work, and I hope to have made a decision by the time I get back.
I took a road trip with D17 on Tuesday. I didn't think about it until I was lying in bed that night, but I realized then that I was asking her a lot of questions about STBXW, I guess to get a gauge on how well the new treatment was working. Inquiring about her makes me wonder whether I'm as detached as I thought I was.
Jim I have read your sitch from the beginning, I came to this site around the same time as you. I would also find it hard to R at this point but my W just keeps prolonging the D for whatever reason. Anyway take your time, this will be a very difficult decision for you to make. I wish you well.
Nicole, bhappy, and everyone else, thanks for stopping by and offering your thoughts. I really appreciate it.
Bhappy, I am now starting to wonder if the prolonging the D was just a tactic to give her some time to think. Ours is literally days away from being done, and suddenly she wanted to have our talk before it became final. I don't know if that means anything, but maybe she felt the time pressure, and acted.
As far as the D goes, the draft QDRO has been approved, so I have an appointment tomorrow to sign it. It then goes to her, and her lawyer can file the settlement agreement and draft QDRO and we're done. Could be next week.
Jim your sitch is fairly unique as I don't think your W has been with anyone since your separation correct? From that aspect I don't think you have to process any infidelity concerns.
I guess the question is whether or not you want to potentially go back to the same R or if your W can do the work to make the necessary changes to build a better R.
Holy cow, was just looking at your timeline, it's been over two years since your W moved out?? It doesn't seem like it's been that long! Good luck, I know this is a tough decision. I tried thinking what I would do in your position, if my XW suddenly said she wanted to recon. I have to admit there's a part of me that would want to just because it would kind of feel like "victory" if that makes sense. Like saving the M is the goal rather than getting back together with W. Does it feel that way to you at all? But if I write out a ledger of pros and cons my R with my GF definitely has a much longer list of pros. Still though, very difficult decision indeed.
Hi Jim,
It's good to hear your update. Had you and your girlfriend previously discussed what would happen under this scenario? She's also going through a divorce too, right? I'm sure she's sympathetic. Is she a 'serious' girlfriend, like someone who you fell totally in love with before your wife wanted to reconcile and were you considering spending the rest-of-your-life with your girlfriend? And do you believe your girlfriend has the same feelings towards you? If so, and if your girlfriend makes you happy, then it's such a tough choice. Your situation is a little different than many of ours here because your wife wasn't having an affair and she seems to have a legitimate mental illness. That also makes it a tough choice! Then there's the whole "for better or worse" aspect of marriage. And your kids and everything that you invested into your family over the years. The thing is, you and your girlfriend must not have been together for so long (I don't remember how long). Every relationship starts out great and then over the years there are bound to be some problems. So then there's the realistic view of potentially ending up stuck-in-a-rut with your girlfriend in the long-term. And then there's your wife potentially always being in your life through your kids.
I do envy you though, because now you're the empowered one who gets to decide rather than being the one who was tossed aside. I hope whatever happens you end up moving beyond this difficult time in your life and you end up with a loving companion!
Jim your sitch is fairly unique as I don't think your W has been with anyone since your separation correct? From that aspect I don't think you have to process any infidelity concerns.
I guess the question is whether or not you want to potentially go back to the same R or if your W can do the work to make the necessary changes to build a better R.
There was never any infidelity so I have that going for me. I just don't know if W is REALLY interested in doing the work to build a better R.
I have to admit there's a part of me that would want to just because it would kind of feel like "victory" if that makes sense. Like saving the M is the goal rather than getting back together with W. Does it feel that way to you at all?
It doesn't feel so much like "victory" as "vindication". I wasn't the greatest husband, but I evidently, I wasn't SO bad that she doesn't now want to get together. And that feels pretty good, I have to admit. I'm really trying to evaluate whether I'm tempted to reconcile so I don't feel like my marriage, and by extension, me, was a failure, or because I really want to reconcile.
But if I write out a ledger of pros and cons my R with my GF definitely has a much longer list of pros. Still though, very difficult decision indeed.
I guess it depends on whether I'm writing the list from the perspective of the first 2/3rds of our marriage, when things were wonderful, or the last 1/3rd when she had her medical issues and depression.
Had you and your girlfriend previously discussed what would happen under this scenario? She's also going through a divorce too, right? I'm sure she's sympathetic. Is she a 'serious' girlfriend, like someone who you fell totally in love with before your wife wanted to reconcile and were you considering spending the rest-of-your-life with your girlfriend? And do you believe your girlfriend has the same feelings towards you? If so, and if your girlfriend makes you happy, then it's such a tough choice. Your situation is a little different than many of ours here because your wife wasn't having an affair and she seems to have a legitimate mental illness. That also makes it a tough choice! Then there's the whole "for better or worse" aspect of marriage. And your kids and everything that you invested into your family over the years. The thing is, you and your girlfriend must not have been together for so long (I don't remember how long). Every relationship starts out great and then over the years there are bound to be some problems. So then there's the realistic view of potentially ending up stuck-in-a-rut with your girlfriend in the long-term. And then there's your wife potentially always being in your life through your kids.
I do envy you though, because now you're the empowered one who gets to decide rather than being the one who was tossed aside. I hope whatever happens you end up moving beyond this difficult time in your life and you end up with a loving companion!
I believed this day would never come, so when this would come up, I would sweep it under the rug. Her divorce is just about finished, and she's very sympathetic. I like her, and enjoy her company, but I think I was not detached enough from W to give her the level of effort she deserved. Does that make her "Ms Right Now" instead of "Ms Right"? I don't know. Bluntly, if she dumped me, I'd miss her, but not be heartbroken, and maybe that's the answer I need.
Right now I'm leaning towards telling GF that I can't give her the all-in kind of relationship she deserves until I no longer want to reconcile with my W and I need time to resolve that, and tell W that she is not ready to reconcile until she does some of the work we've all discussed in this thread, and just take a break from having any romantic relationship for a while.
I expressed the ideas in the previous paragraph to an associate yesterday, and he asked, "OK, but what's your exit strategy? How long do you give W to string you along before you decide it's never going to happen? Will you give even more years to her, hoping she'll come around?" I can totally see myself seeing the smallest glimmer of improvement and think "aha! She's finally coming around!" until years have gone by.
Jim,
That makes complete sense to take a break. That seems like the best decision to avoid hurting anyone (or getting yourself further hurt). If someone loves you they'll be willing to give you space. I'm sure about that. I'd love to see you and your wife re-unite. It seemed like you and your wife still managed to have enjoyable times even during the divorce process. If it works you could just delete the past two years from your memory although your wife will inherit the new-and-improved Jim. You deserve the new-and-improved wife too so it's good you're using caution!
Something my therapist said a few weeks ago kept resonating with me..... "Now that your W has opened the door to R, can you move forward in your relationship with GF, and not keep looking back, wondering, "what if I had tried again with W"", and "if the answer is no, is that fair to your GF?" After a lot of thought, the answer to both questions is no, I can't keep from wondering what if, and no, it wouldn't be fair to GF, so at the beginning of the week I talked to GF and told her I was going to continue talking to W. She was obviously very upset, and kept reminding me that I was making a choice to return to W, rather than move forward with GF. It was a very emotional goodbye for both of us.
The next day I sat down with W again. We talked a little about how the relationship would be different, and how I failed to meet her needs, but I understood my failure and was resolved to improve, and how she failed to meet my needs in the relationship but still didn't really know what my needs are. We made some small talk and tried to enjoy each other's company, but the easy banter wasn't really there. I started to wonder "OMG what have I done?" and "Be careful what you wish for because you just might get it." In the end, I figured it would take a little while to relax. We discussed just going to a movie next week, and she said, kind of excitedly, "oh, like a date?"
The next day I saw my therapist, who surprised me by suggesting that we not focus on my needs, and just enjoy each other's company. She believes my needs will be met in the course of developing a normal relationship, and focusing on them makes me needy. That was an issue of mine in our marriage, and made me less of an alpha. That's something I'm going to have to think about.
That afternoon S19 flew in for the weekend. I picked him up, and we decided we'd go out for dinner with D17. I invited W along, and she joined us. It was nice, but not really warm, and conversation between us was still a bit strained. i guess I just don't know if the magic is gone, or it will just require some time and effort.
Please start a new thread and link them together.