I've been reading on this forum quite a bit over the last 10 days.....
Not sure how much information I should provide and a bit hesitant to put this on a public forum but I'm in the last resort/nowhere to turn phase.
One wrinkle to our relationship is we work together. Have ever since graduating (met in grad school and married right after graduation). So, we have essentially been around each other day in and day out since we've been married.
W has had infidelity issues. First one started with one of my best friends from high school after about 2 years of marriage. It lasted quite awhile behind my back. OM's wife found emails between the two of them so we had a confrontation, all of us, and they admitted to it. We live in a very small town, my hometown, so there is always a constant reminder of what took place. Small town settings are very hard - everyone knows everyone and everything it seems. At the time, we had our first D and our second D was about 4 weeks old. I obviously wanted to forgive and move on but at the time (ignorantly now that I look back) I felt like it was none of my doing/fault and that she needed the help.
Moving forward, things were ok I guess I would say. We had our S, built our business, etc. Until this year....
Another wrinkle in my sitch, my wife was sexually abused, along with all of her siblings, by her biological father back when she was 3-4 yrs. old. Her mom and future adoptive father NEVER spoke about what happened, never got the kids counseling, etc. They sort of swept it under the rug and tried to move forward as if things never happened. In March, my W got curious about what all took place and so she received all of the case filing documents and went through them along with case filings of victims of her father's afterwards. He's been incarcerated ever since and she found out he is set to be released sometime this year. Unfortunately, I knew she was looking into this, but I didn't ask her what she found, how she was feeling and she never opened up to me about it either. I can clearly point to communication as the ultimate crux of our problems from Day 1.
In May, while I was away on a trip, I find out that my best friend from college's W found my W and my best friend on the couch doing an act I do not even want to explain. It wasn't sex but was more than kissing. She pleaded with me that she had been retraumatized by her findings about her past and that she doesn't have the control to say No, especially when she's been drinking (which they both admit to being pretty drunk when the incident took place). By the time I got home from the trip it had been a week since this incident took place (happened the first night I was gone) and so I had some time to reflect and decided that I was willing to, once again, forgive her and try to move past it. I felt like this situation was different that the previous and her recollection of what took place was more or less him sort of forcing himself on her. He told me he initiated the contact so I trusted what she told me. She told me she always viewed him as more of a brother. They were pretty close because they both likes to run, workout and the like. I told her I am willing to try to move past this but this is the last time.
Her IC sort of confirmed the retraumatzing effect it had on her and that she's never really been able to associate sex as something other than a secret in her life. She was also sexually abused as teen while on a church retreat/trip.
Over the last couple years, I've tried to be more communicative with her. We both read the 5 Love Languages book a couple years ago and found that mine was physical touch. We have had sex regularly but I wouldn't say it is 'intimate'. She almost never initiates any physical affection or intimacy with me and I'll get frustrated by it until finally I'll confront her and tell her how I feel. Never in an argumentative or 'blow up' type conversation but more from a 'this is what I need to feel loved.' type of a way She will make random attempts after each of these conversations but it eventually falls by the wayside after a few days or week.
That brings us to now. Earlier in Sept she told me it was one of her New Year's Resolutions to hike a mountain in Colorado with her brother and that she wants to do this for "her." I was in favor of it so she went out there on Sept 16, was going to hike it with her Brother on Sept 17 and come home. I received a text from her on Sept 17 that said it the hike took a lot longer than expected, was way harder than she expected but she was probably going to miss her flight that was scheduled to depart later that day. I was sort of 'miffed' but was OK with it. She got home the morning of Sept 18 and it was business as usual until I was on her work computer right after lunch on Sept 19 and found pictures of her and OM on this hike together. There were screen shots of messages between the two of them and a picture of him kissing her on the neck. I flipped out and text her to pack her @#$% and get the hell out of my house. She asked where she was suppose to go and I said "you should have thought about that beforehand."
Needless to say, I caved and allowed her to sleep in the basement that night while we sorted things out. It was a high anxiety and high emotional time for both of us. That next morning I couldn't handle it anymore so I went to see a IC for the very first time in my life. The counselor assured me that her characteristics can absolutely be traced back to what happened to her in her childhood and that reopening all those wounds when she did the research earlier this year only exasperated things. That at least felt somewhat good to hear. Over the next day or 2, we talked about how this was going to work. Remember, we work together and have ever since graduation, so she was going to have to get a different job, etc. We talked about those things, child arrangements moving forward, how assets and debts would be split, etc. She saw her IC the day after I saw mine and both of them told us we shouldn't be "signing" anything yet. Just take the time to calm down before making any rash decisions.
Side note: This OM was a guy that was her brother's friend who we had just met over the 4th of July this year. He stayed at our house night and spent the day with us. First time either of us had met him. After he left, she showed me a message he sent to her about how amazing our kids are and what wonderful parents we are and how he just enjoyed hanging out with our family for the day. I thought it was weird and sort of sleazy and she kind of "intimated" that she felt the same. Clearly, that wasn't the case. Looking back, I think what a freaking low-life POS to do that BS.
She explained to me that she had every intention of doing the hike with her brother but when she told the OM she was going to do it he suggested he come along. She then told her brother at the last minute that she felt like she needed to do it alone because her IC told her she needs to focus on her strengths.
In the 10 days or so since all of this, I've seen my IC twice and she's seen hers once. She says in her session after the incidence took place that they still mostly talked about her childhood events and haven't really delved into our M and those issues. She has another session scheduled for this Friday.
I have since prayed hard about this and am willing to try to work out our problems in a healthy manner -- getting MC, IC for the both of us, etc since we've never done that in the past. We've sort of just tried to moved past the incidents on our own and I have been too ignorant to realize that we both need help. She, needless to say, was not sharing with me her thoughts about any of this. Her excuse was "I need to see my IC one more time before I can talk with you about what to do." I finally got her to open up a tiny bit this last Sunday night that she is still leaning towards walking away.
I for the life of me do not understand why she wouldn't want to at least try to work on our M? I feel like I should be the one that is hesitant, not her. I know my sitch is only about 2 weeks along, but I've been trying to become a better version of myself. I've been working out, going to daily mass when I can, etc. I've told her numerous times that I am now in a place or have been awakened to the fact that I probably wasn't there for her emotionally in the beginning stages of our marriage and that is why she turned to my friends and became close with them, I told her I now emphasize with what went on in her childhood and how that screws a person up. I told her know I need to change but also that she needs to change and that our communication issues compounded the problems of her own personal demons she's going to have to work through. She hears it but is pretty much non-responsive. I finally, after about a week of sharing my thoughts and feelings and telling her we CAN work through this, decided to try the DB method. I've been pretty much silent and not reaching out to her unless in absolute necessity re: work, kids, etc. She has come to me with random questions about surface level stuff in the past 2 days but I'm going to continue my DB methods and see where that gets me. Clearly me sharing my thoughts and feelings without anything back didn't work so I might as well try this.
I just don't know if I need to treat her as a WW or a WAS given she has those demons from her childhood in her. At one point she said "I just I hurt everyone I'm around or close to and I'm tired of hurting you constantly." When she told me on Sunday night that she was leaning towards leaving she told me that "God has been present through all of this and that he is speaking to her to go in that direction." I'm not going to argue with her, but since we are both pretty strong Catholics, I think if she stepped away to assess what she said, she would know that God probably wouldn't be telling you to leave if things are able to be worked out. I told her the ironic thing about this is I was planning on talking with her the night I found the evidence and suggest we need to do some MC or something to get us back on track. Too late to the party on my part I guess.
The fact that she won't at least express to me any desire to at least try to work things out is the main struggle for me right now. She did agree to "start with" one MC session and that counseling "is a must" and she stated those things probably a week ago. I also have told her I want to go to Retrouvaille as well but she didn't respond to that.
Any pointers or insight would be greatly appreciated and I can try share more if asked/needed.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forum...ain=57819&Number=2578224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
She is WW. Advice from personal experience:
1. No MC.
2. Act fast.
3. Read all of Sandi's threads twice.
W,
Man that was painful to read. I really feel for you man.
Short and simple because I have to run. Let her go and do not pursue her at all. Protect your kids, and start building a life for them and yourself.
She has a ton of work to do to get better and she has to want to do it or it won't work.
Once she hits rock bottom things will start to change. Until then just keep moving forward.
I'm trying like hell to quit the pursuit. I've lasted 48 hours which is longer than I have the past 10 days. I had been trying so hard but then I tell myself 'I need to tell her one more thing.' Even she told me she felt suffocated by all of what I was saying to her.
Part of me feels sorry for her as a victim of her circumstances and also sorry that I wasn't there for her in the right way. It pains me to no end that she had this all bottled up inside her and that she didn't trust/feel comfortable with coming to me with how she was feeling once she read through all the crap she went through. Reading through that she said felt like she was reading about somebody else until it hit her that THAT stuff happened to her and her siblings.
I empathize, somewhat, with the fact that she didn't trust coming to me with anything. I have never been a real emotional guy and looking back I now realize we never did communicate in a healthy matter. I sort of brushed things aside and figured they would eventually work themselves out. Clearly that doesn't work. I absolutely understand that now.
I really want to try Retrouvaille. It sounds like the main objective is to teaches couples how to communicate the right way and effectively. I feel as though if we could figure that out, a lot of our issues could be resolved, with of course, her continued work on her own problem and issues that she needs to deal with through an IC which is definitely going to take time.
I'm just so clueless as to why she isn't more open (at this point in time at least) to trying to work through this, which is something we've never done in the past. It would be different if she was going to an IC regularly, or I was seeing someone or if we both had been to MC in the past. We haven't, unfortunately. Before, I was oblivious to the fact that I helped contribute to the strife.
My thought is, we can always call it quits if none of that works and we will both know we tried everything to salvage the M. I just have no clue how to move forward in an effective manner to which she will open her eyes and her heart to at least trying to work through all of our issues.
Wow. Exhausting. If I'm counting right that's 3 OM....... that you know of. I seriously hope you've been tested fur STDs.
I'm going to level with you, this is a DBing board but her issues are way beyond DBing. You don't give ages but I'm guessing you're relatively young. I don't give this advice often but I'm going to give it to you: run away and don't look back. Once is a mistake. Twice is a big problem. Three times is a pattern. This is who she is and I am not sure she can ever be faithful. Do you constantly want time be looking over your shoulder? Do you constantly want to be worried about who shes with what's she's doing?
Admit it. After the hiking trip you got suspicious and snooped, didn't you? You'd seen this movie before and you knew something wasn't right. And you were right.
Good luck in whatever you decide. If you decide to give it another try make sure she does the work and gets the help to be right. Or you are setting yourself up for BD 4.
My oh my, I'm so sorry to read all that I did.
Have you gotten a paternity test? STD test?
Affair timeline is:
OM1 - sneaking for 1 year, and that happened when marriage was 2 years old?
OM2 - this year, one time only that you know of?
OM3 - a couple weeks ago?
Your W clearly has boundary issues. She clearly needs help for her very unfortunate abuse. She cannot have male friends, and you apparently can't either (if they were friends you could trust them). She cannot or will not, for the life of her, tell the truth.
My advice to you is to get to the gym, start lifting weights like a maniac, become a man's man, and work on your wolf stare. Take some boxing classes, MMA, anything. What do you do for fun? This woman doesn't respect you, these guys don't either. I've been a rough and tumble guy at times in my life, and I confronted the OM in my sitch, he stood behind his mother and told me about how I'm lucky his dad wasn't there. I laughed and smelled a little female dog right then and there. Well at least he knows if he sees me he better go the other way. Have you ever been in a fight, do you play sports, have brothers?
If your W wants to walk away from this, I say let her. She has so many issues and it's going to require a huge commitment from her to sort through them. She treats you like hell.
I'm a Catholic too, but I wouldn't call your W a "strong Catholic". She seems to not care about any of it. Harder for you to see, standing at ground zero over there.
You soften on her a lot. That isn't good. You have a pattern of caving. Do a 180 there. Or live with someone running roughshod over you forever. Read No More Mr Nice Guy.
Definitely quit pursuing. Unleash your rational mind. Why chase a woman who doesn't want you? This goes back to my advice on becoming a man's man. You don't respect yourself, she doesn't respect you, these "friends" don't respect you. Everyone is crapping on you. STOP EVERYTHING! Go and be a man! Find yourself right now and quit being miserable! My blood is boiling over here. She doesn't feel too sorry for you, right? So quit feeling sorry for her! This last paragraph is how you open all of the eyes.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I ordered the DR book yesterday. Should be here tomorrow. I will definitely check out No More Mr. Nice Guy. Appreciate that suggestion.
I've played sports all my life. Watch a lot of sports, hunt, fish, golf, scuba dive, spearfish and the like.
I'm not trying to make excuses for my "friends" and I hate to be so blunt about it, but both of them are married to women that most men wouldn't find "attractive." On the flip side, my W is VERY attractive. From an idiotic guy's point of view, if they are with someone who isn't that attractive and someone incredibly better looking than what they have starts befriending them, I think they decided to think with their nether region instead of their brains. But, I agree, great "friends" I had!
No STD test, because the 2nd OM wasn't intercourse. His face was down you know where when the OM's W caught them. I haven't had any PC with my W since prior to this last OM.
I've been working out. Can hardly eat a thing so when you combine the two, I've lost about 10lbs in 2 weeks. I've always wanted to lose weight but as you all know I wouldn't suggest this as the preferred weight loss plan....
She still isn't shedding any light on what her thoughts and feeling are. She said she wants to run everything by her IC first. Then she rambled on about how every other time in our M when we talk about stuff, I manipulate her into my way of thinking and she ends up caving to what I want, and she wants to be strong this time to decide for herself without getting scared and just agreeing with what I have to say, yada, yada, yada. I can't for the life of me understand where that's coming from, but I validated her thoughts by telling her I understand that she thinks that. I honestly feel like its more her rewriting history to justify why she won't tell me anything than anything else, but I just let it go....
Dude....wow. That was a hard read.
I hope you realize how strong you are for dealing with this situation the way you are. Many people would break into pieces. You, my friend, are still fighting.
Let's use that strength to get you healing and back on your feet.
Here is what you need to do:
I - Detach. She needs to own and work on her $hit. Your W's actions are not yours to deal with. That is her battle she needs to figure it out for herself. You have your hands full as it is.
II - Work on what you can control...YOURSELF. You and your child's well-being depends on you being the best and strongest. You have control of that. Embrace it and strengthen the crap out of it. The term GAL is used constantly. Get A Life. Go out. Have fun with your friends. Pray. Take up a hobby. Spend quality time and make awesome memories with your child. Join a support group. Keep your mind positively occupied
III - Seek help Find a good IC to talk to about your issues with your situation. Venting to an IC helps with the pain, even it it's temporary. You will get good advice and guidelines that will serve you well as you embark on this journey. Journaling here is a good way to let out some steam.
IV - Keep your hopes up It will get better. You WILL be a better man, father, friend, son, and Husband coming out of this (whether it's with your current partner or someone else).
I and II are the most important. I hope that you are already doing those steps in one form or another.
I would also work on III as quickly as you can. The faster you can start the healing process, the sooner you can move forward.
We're here for you.
Dude....wow. That was a hard read.
I hope you realize how strong you are for dealing with this situation the way you are. Many people would break into pieces. You, my friend, are still fighting.
Let's use that strength to get you healing and back on your feet.
Here is what you need to do:
I - Detach. She needs to own and work on her $hit. Your W's actions are not yours to deal with. That is her battle she needs to figure it out for herself. You have your hands full as it is.
II - Work on what you can control...YOURSELF. You and your child's well-being depends on you being the best and strongest. You have control of that. Embrace it and strengthen the crap out of it. The term GAL is used constantly. Get A Life. Go out. Have fun with your friends. Pray. Take up a hobby. Spend quality time and make awesome memories with your child. Join a support group. Keep your mind positively occupied
III - Seek help Find a good IC to talk to about your issues with your situation. Venting to an IC helps with the pain, even it it's temporary. You will get good advice and guidelines that will serve you well as you embark on this journey. Journaling here is a good way to let out some steam.
IV - Keep your hopes up It will get better. You WILL be a better man, father, friend, son, and Husband coming out of this (whether it's with your current partner or someone else).
I and II are the most important. I hope that you are already doing those steps in one form or another.
I would also work on III as quickly as you can. The faster you can start the healing process, the sooner you can move forward.
We're here for you.
Pain,
I sincerely appreciate your comments. As you can probably gather from my OP, I have never been a person that believed I needed to go see an IC. I was too prideful to think that it was ME who needed any help from a "stranger." Boy was I mistaken. I got an appointment right away the morning after the BD. It helped so much just to be able to do as you say, vent. Felt remarkably better afterwards even though I didn't really get any guidance that early in the process other than to not rush things or make any rash decisions this early due to the high emotions. I've now been to my IC twice and have another appointment for Monday. My IC is really focused on the traumas she's experienced as a child and then the effects it had on her after she read into it all earlier this year.
#II, I feel like I have a handle on. I've started working out, trying to be involved as much with the kids' routines, etc. Helping as much as absolutely possible around the house and with the kids. Haven't really done much GAL but I'm working on it. I'm doing "my own thing" as much as I can.
#I, is where I'm having a lot of struggles. Trying like heck to detach as much as possible not only because I know I need to for myself, but also W told me she just needs space and time to think about everything and to decide what to do. Like I said before, she told me on Sunday that she's leaning towards calling it quits, but yesterday told me, again, that she wants to see her IC one more time and run everything past her. That's been her "mantra" since this whole thing started. She won't open up as to the 'why' with me. Her appointment is tomorrow. Her IC is a lot harder to get into and schedule appts with then mine. She's only seen her's once and that was 2 days after the BD and then scheduled this appt for tomorrow which makes them exactly 2 weeks apart. Wish she could have gotten in sooner but I can't control any of that.
I've been praying like crazy.....and I guess I'm at a point now that I realize whatever happens will be according to His will. I read the book Love and War by John and Stasi Eldredge over the weekend and she's been reading it now and said she wants to finish it before her IC session. It was a pretty good book, IMO. Talks about marriage from a biblical sense and also the differences between the male and female perspectives in marriage.
I've been sharing with her how my IC sessions go and she shared with me how her 1 went with her IC. I'm going to try my absolute hardest not to ask her how it went after tomorrow and let her come to me and discuss it if she wants.
Our S birthday is coming up, so we are planning on going to an event to celebrate his b-day with another couple and their S this weekend. Its a 3.5 hr drive away so we will be staying overnight either tomorrow night or Saturday. I'm curious to see how that goes since we are all going as a "family."
Part of me feels sorry for her as a victim of her circumstances and also sorry that I wasn't there for her in the right way.
This woman has cheated on you with (at least) THREE different men. She has LIED to you over and over again. She is a LYING CHEATER. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but you need a good cold slap to the face of what you are up against. She may have been a victim of abuse in her past but that in NO WAY excuses her current behavior. And no, she is not a lying cheater because you weren't there for her "in the right way". You have the worst kind of wayward on your hands and appeasing her is only going to send her further down the rabbit hole. Your best chance of success is to take a "tough love" approach and take it right away. Ironically the smartest thing you've done in all of this is to tell her to pack up and get out, but unfortunately you didn't stick to your guns. That would have gone a long ways towards waking her up to the fact that her behavior is WRONG and will not be tolerated by you.
So, I'm reading the DR book. In this book it seems to me that MWD is speaking to both parties of the marriage and in the beginning sort of suggests that both parties read the book. Should I suggest that my W read it after I'm done? I think Part 1 that talked about D and how most people don't find the comfort or happiness they think they are going to find after a D would maybe shed some light on the negative aspects of going through with a D for my W.
Still have no clue what her thoughts are. Her IC told her that "its OK to continue honoring the space between us and working on ourselves" so she hasn't opened up at all about her feelings to me. We have a joint session with, her, both of our IC and I on Monday and she keeps telling me that the purpose of this session is so that she feels comfortable talking about her feelings, etc. So essentially I'm going in blind, which I guess is what is giving me so much anxiety. On the flip side, I've told my IC and have prepared myself to listen and not share anything unless I'm specifically asked. I plan on validating the whole freaking time. I've said my piece to her so this is her time to open up. I'm going to validate everything she says.
Not sure why she's so hesitant to open up to me. The walls she has put up are freaking tall. I have been calm and cool when I've tried discussing the R topic with her and I've told her multiple times that I understand that they are her feelings and there is no such thing as right or wrong 'feelings'. I've also explained that I am at a point now where I realize that it's more important to understand than be understood which I think is something I have lacked throughout our marriage. Both of us have but I'm not about to open that can of worms. I'm comfortable taking the blame on the communication issues if that means we can at least start the process of trying to make this work in a healthy way for the first time in our M.
One, you shouldn't be trying to discuss the R with her. That is pressure and pursuit, so 180 on that.
Second, do not share the book with her. Yes Chapter 1 is written mainly about how terrible D is and that it should be avoided. Guess what, she won't be open to that. No WAS is. They have pink flamigos and elephants dance before their eyes when they think of D. Chapter 1 of DR isn't going to make that vanish.
Third, I like your approach for the joint session. Always be DBing, even in there. Listen, emphasis, validate. Own your own garbage, but do not own hers (that is what validation is for, it isn't agreeing or disagreeing, just understanding).
Fourth, in the vein of owning your own garbage but not hers, don't take all of the blame for the communication issues. Accept 1/2 the blame. "I realize I played a large part in our communication issues." Not "I realize I was solely to blame for our communication issues." But yes, listen and validate when she discusses the issues. Remember, validation is not agreeing or disagreeing. "I understand how you'd feel like that." "It must be awful to feel that way." "I hadn't looked at it like that before."
Validation works. I've used it at work. At home. At church. Even here!
W,
First, no way shape or from do you show her the DB book. The analogy is that is like showing the other teams the playbook.
Second, you are trying to use logic and reason to understand an emotional human being. You may want to read "Men are from Mars and women are from Venus" to help you understand the differences in which men and women think.
Third, in no manner should you be bringing up relationship talks. That is a big no no here that will make her feel pressured and will make her want to flee even faster.
Last, for all the things she has done to you and you are desperately trying to get her back is going to communicate to her that you have a low value of yourself. Not saying you have to file for D and close the book on her forever, but she needs to earn another chance with you. Know what I mean? She has to choose you and do the work. That's the only way it will work long-term.
Steve and LH have great advice, so heed that. You need to find your inner strength.
Thank you for the comments.
Yes, I've been 'that guy' these past 2.5 weeks even though I know I shouldn't be approaching her with my feelings, etc. After 2.5 weeks of it and not getting anywhere, I've decided to go the opposite route and not mention a thing. You know, the same thing you all have been telling me for 2 weeks!
I still communicate with her about every day things, kids, etc. but under no circumstances will I be going back to her to talk about our R or the M. I've had to stop myself a couple times these past couple days. I'm just trying to bide my time until Monday when we have the joint session. I am praying very hard that it goes well and that somehow the fog she's in will be lifted or at least she will give me some sort of sign that she's decided to try to work this out even if it's small.
W,
Good lesson learned. The worst thing you can do right now is vomit your feelings all over her.
Also, you should start to prepare yourself that this likely not going to play itself out for many months most likely years. Life as you knew it is never going to be the same. That's a good thing though because how you were living caused her to have multiple indiscretions.
It's often said around here that in the early going you cannot make things better but you can certainly make them worse.
Print off Sandy's rules and go over them everyday.
I have a question on how to handle this IF it comes to it.
After the incident 3 weeks ago I said we are done and need to get a divorce. We started outlining how it would look re: finances, child custody, etc. Living in a small town and both working together in the same business, the only realistic job she can get is an hour away in a larger city. She's been applying for jobs and had a couple interviews. Was offered a job that was quite a bit less pay than she will need to make it financially work.
Obviously in the meantime, I've expressed that now that I've calmed down after the initial emotional and high anxiety reaction that I believe we can work through this with help from IC, MC, etc. She has been essentially unresponsive of her feelings and emotions thus far (as I've posted above) except a week and half ago when she admitted that she still was leaning towards ending things.
I'm TRYING not to focus on her continued efforts to get a new job as a sign that this is over but it's very hard. Of course if she told me she thought if she had a new job and wasn't around me 24/7, like most married couples, would help us work through our troubles and help us head toward R I would be much more in favor of it. I'm trying not to view it as one more step that she's taking towards the inevitable D but doubt creeps in constantly.
As I've thought more about a potential D since our initial talk and how things would work (Finances, kids, etc.) it dawned on me that I will be responsible for the majority of the kids everyday lives every day of the week. If she gets a job an hour away, that means she has to leave an hour early for the commute and won't get home for an extra hour after the commute. Originally we agreed to share custody 50/50 and basically alternate 2 days with her, 2 days with me, then Fri-Sun with her and vice a versa after that. But now when I think about that arrangement, that means on the days they are with her, she will probably have to drop them off with me before she leaves and then I'll take them to school and I will pick them up from school and have them until she gets home from work. Seems like a lot of shuffling around and while I'm happy to take care of my kids, I also feel like I'm making it more 'convenient' for her to just jump ship if she thinks I'm ok with that.
I would obviously love to have full custody but she would absolutely lose her mind at the thought of that. She has always been a mother first and a wife second. Our kids are her #1 priority no matter what. It's good in a sense but I also think that is one of the pitfalls on why we are where we are now. We never made time for our marriage or for each other.
So my question is, if she ends up sticking to her guns and not wanting to try to work this out, do I let her know that I think the arrangement we sort of pre-agreed to is garbage because of all of the shuffling it is going to do to the kids? Me essentially having them full time except for the hour before they go to bed and a little bit of time in the morning before she has to travel to work in my mind means I should have full custody. My thoughts are obviously 2 fold - #1 being obviously the kids and their well being of not having to constantly be shuffled from one household to the other EVERY day of the week but also, #2 maybe if she realizes the effect this will have on the kids and the fact that due to her past actions I've got a pretty good chance at getting full custody, if it comes down to a fight, maybe that will be enough to open her eyes and think twice about being full steam ahead for a D. I don't want her to come back just for the kids. That sounds miserable for everyone, but if that's enough to give her a nudge in the right direction, I think we can get the help we honestly need to make our relationship grow and end up being better by working with IC, MC and doing a retrouvaille sort of workshop on proper and healthy communications in a marriage.
Am I on to something or on something :-)?!
W,
Do not bring it up now she will see it as manipulation on your part. (which it is). That can be discussed if you decide to D and begin to negotiate.
Absolutely, you can get the help you need! The problem is she has to want to get help. Give her the time and space to make a choice to stay in the marriage.
Again you are using logic and reason with an emotional human being. As we talk about here all the time, your W is like a caged animal who has been locked up for 12 years. Do you use logic and reason with a caged animal? No, you open the cage door and set it free. Some end up liking roaming free in the wilderness and some end up coming back home. The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the cage door.
You see if you never open the cage door the animal will always feel unsettled.
Obviously in the meantime, I've expressed that now that I've calmed down after the initial emotional and high anxiety reaction that I believe we can work through this with help from IC, MC, etc.
STOP THAT. Did you read the comments from Steve and LH? They are spot-on. NO R TALKS AT ALL.
She has been essentially unresponsive of her feelings and emotions thus far (as I've posted above) except a week and half ago when she admitted that she still was leaning towards ending things.
Yup and every time you push to talk about it she will just be more resolute that D is the only answer. You've got to pull back and give her time and space.
I'm TRYING not to focus on her continued efforts to get a new job as a sign that this is over but it's very hard
LH said it but I will say it again- this isn't a game of days or weeks. It's many months or even a year or more. She is going to be 100% done for a long, long time. She might change her mind later, but please understand when we all say this is a marathon, we say that because it IS. There's no magic pill that's going to put everything back to normal so please try and quit looking at it like that. She is two feet out the door. You can't reel her back in, you've got to let her go before she might think about coming back. And when I say "let her go" I mean LET HER DECIDE. If she wants to leave then don't stop her, but it's HER choice. Don't kick her out. Same with the bed, she doesn't want to sleep there? That's fine it's her choice. But you sleep there whether she does or not. Don't let her browbeat you into giving up the bed or home or whatever, but don't push her to make choices either. You've got to "open the cage door".
Originally we agreed to share custody 50/50 and basically alternate 2 days with her, 2 days with me, then Fri-Sun with her and vice a versa after that.
My brother had a similar split with his ex and hated it. The kids were constantly on the move and basically living out of backpacks. There was a lot of confusion over when the handoffs were and difficulties coordinating homework and projects. My ex and I did an every other week arrangement. Personally I think it's the way to go. You can do a leisurely handoff each Sunday and discuss upcoming homework and projects during the handoff. I have to travel for work and it's easy to schedule my travel for my off weeks. It's just a lot more convenient, especially if your W moves and isn't nearby. Something to think about.
So my question is, if she ends up sticking to her guns and not wanting to try to work this out, do I let her know that I think the arrangement we sort of pre-agreed to is garbage because of all of the shuffling it is going to do to the kids?
Don't tell her it's garbage, but tell her you'd like to discuss it and then explain to her why you feel like it's going to be very inconvenient for both of you as well as for the kids. If she feels like she can't go a week without seeing them then offer for each of you to have an optional evening anytime during the week to pick up the kids and have dinner with them. This was written into our D agreement although as it turned out we both saw our kids so much at sports events and such on our off weeks that we didn't need it.
#2 maybe if she realizes the effect this will have on the kids and the fact that due to her past actions I've got a pretty good chance at getting full custody, if it comes down to a fight, maybe that will be enough to open her eyes and think twice about being full steam ahead for a D.
Remember what Steve said about pink flamingos? Your W is living in a fantasy land right now where she thinks everything is going to work out perfectly for her. Any attempt you make to "explain" to her how it won't is just going to anger her and make her think you are controlling and manipulative. If she wants 50-50 custody and you go for full then prepare for a long, drawn-out, expensive court battle because I can't imagine she'd ever agree to you having full custody based on your comment that the kids have always come first. And besides, why would you want to deprive your kids of time with their mom? If she's a great mom then they deserve time with her.
I don't want her to come back just for the kids. That sounds miserable for everyone, but if that's enough to give her a nudge in the right direction, I think we can get the help we honestly need to make our relationship grow and end up being better by working with IC, MC and doing a retrouvaille sort of workshop on proper and healthy communications in a marriage.
Am I on to something or on something :-)?!
No you are in denial. I'm sorry, but you really do not have a grasp on what you are up against when dealing with a WAS and you need to learn that or you will keep doing the wrong things. DO NOT TRY TO USE THE KIDS AGAINST HER. Not only will it appear to her as control and manipulation, it IS control and manipulation. Please understand any attempts you make to control her are going to blow up in your face in huge ways. Don't do it. Pull back. Get a life. Give her time and space. Let HER make her choices.
I'd like to say this sternly, not because of any expectations, but because I don't want you to go through what I'm going through now:
Do exactly what people here are telling you. They aren't here to mislead people. When you get that awful dying feeling in the pit of your stomach, ignore it. Trust the people here. They have seen the same thing happen over. And over. And over. Your sitch is unique but NOT different.
Want to see what happens when you do it the wrong way? Read my threads. I did the opposite of everything I was supposed to do, for about 4 months. Then I learned about DB, joined the board, and did a bad job of following the advice here, for another month, until I had no other options. It's good to have options. It's not good to be up against a wall. DB gives you options.
Save the big guns for later. MC, IC, workshops, retreats. None of those will work right now. Well, they will work, if what you define as "working" is prolonging your denial and agony.
When they say it's a marathon, they sometimes forget to add that it can be a very long marathon. You don't have control over the outcome but you do have some control over the length of the race.
Thanks for all of the input. I said I was approaching her about the R and approaching her with my feelings, etc. before. I haven't done so now since Monday and am not planning on doing it anymore. I am making a conscious effort to avoid falling into the temptations of doing so moving forward.
I am still planning on the joint session we have scheduled for Monday because I do want to know where her head is at so I at least know a little bit more about what I'm dealing with/where her head is at. Like I said, my whole objective in the session will be to validate her feelings.
I don't know if/when she will approach me if she does get a job offer that she wants to accept. At this point, if she does, I'm going to try to do a 180 and not necessarily congratulate her on it but I'm not going to do what she thinks I would do (and what I want to do at this point) which is be negative about it and tell her all the reasons she shouldn't take that big of a step. I guess I will see how the conversation goes and try to respond accordingly without any negative comments or advice.
Quick question re: my upcoming joint session with W, her IC, my IC and me....
My plan, as I said, is to let her do all the talking and validate, validate, validate. But my question is, if she throws out something like "It doesn't seem like you have cared for me for quite a while?" I'm going to validate her by saying something like "I understand that you feel that way" but can I go a step further and just simple ask if she could provide me with some examples as to why she feels that way or is that taking it too far?
I honestly would like to know for the sake of me maybe not seeing the forest through the trees....but if asking for examples isn't advised I won't
"And just simple ask if she could provide me with some examples as to why she feels that way or is that taking it too far?"
I see nothing wrong with this. Acknowledge the feeling, then ask for clarity on behaviors from you that contribute to that. This will help inform your 180s moving forward.
Just so im straight on this, your MC(?) session will include both IC's? If so, is this common and are they advocates for their respective clients or working in tandem to help solve issues? Sorry maybe i missed an explanation for this earlier.
Thanks, Steve. Those were my exact thoughts but wanted to be sure I wasn’t missing something.
equalzr, it’s just one session with both of our IC present. They informed us if we continue MC then we will be with a totally different therapist. My W had been seeing her IC a couple times before the latest incident for her issues with her childhood and retraumatizing herself with it earlier this year. We both floated the idea to each of our IC and they both agreed to do this. I think it’s more or less for my W to voice her feelings since she hasn’t as of yet to me. My thought was if my IC is present and hears everything she can help me better moving forward than me trying to recollect what took place in a future session. Another positive I hope that comes from it is my IC can maybe ask her some of the tougher questions that might help hearing the answers too without me being the one asking them. My mentality is going to be let her share and I’ll validate and ask for examples if needed and that’s the extent of what I’m going to contribute.
Makes sense. Ive always felt its good to know both sides of the story. Are you sure yoir ic asking questions is a good idea, its sort of a surrogate asking for you?
Makes sense. Ive always felt its good to know both sides of the story. Are you sure yoir ic asking questions is a good idea, its sort of a surrogate asking for you?
Not sure. Guess maybe it depends on what she asks? Hopefully she’s aware enough to either word the questions correctly so they aren’t seemingly intrusive or she just asks generalities to sort of “bring her up to speed” or to get a better understanding of where Ws head is at. I guess I’m at the mercy of whatever takes place. All I can control is what I say and respond with, which will be validating all day long throughout the session.
Wanted1,
Just wow, I was in tears for you.
I can see your trying so hard and I get it, you love your W.
But now I am more about kids, I am an advocate for kids.
Do you know your kids are hurting, and if you think they to young
to understand, they know more than you think.
I see someone ask you paternity test. I bet that a hard pill to swallow but
you can't believe 50% what they say or do. I am sorry you can't
I get it your mind is everywhere your in survivor mode trying to save your M
I am here to be blunt. Your W is gone you must now worry about kids and you.
I said the same thing if W loses kids she would maybe take her life
I started seeing my kids draining, Tired, and hungry coming back
From W being sick. I needed to put my super hero cape on and stop
Protecting W. I realized I am responsible for 3 little people I got my head
out my a** and focus on my kids.
I basically began GAL with kids, W would yell I need them I would just walk away
I realized my kids could not be her crutch.
You must let go. Let your W go that doesn't mean you stop loving her.
Is hard trust me I would have never thought I would be here writing giving advice
I was once Broken, lost, a broken heart a broken soul. But I am still healing
But is not what I was 1yr ago. I still have my days but one day at a time.
Wanted1- 1st paternity test , but if you know you don't need it because
you love them regardless then don't because you might not like the results.
As a mom of 3 adopted to me that means nothing I love then as mine
Get custody of kids, get them in kids therapy
Financial protect yourself. Be fair to W 50 and 50
Gal and kids. Start living life become there superdad don't
Take that cape off not even when W is around.
Get lots of rest eat well laugh more take care of you because
your babies need you more then ever.
I am going give you advice someone once gave to me.
Why would you want to be with someone who broke you once
and have them put you back together and rebrake you.
Also I was told by my kids therapist,
Therapist you love your kids
M of course
Therapist then why you letting them be abused
M wtf, nobody abuse my kids I protect them. How dare you
Therapist you say you do but you let your W mentally abuse them
M crying how dare you say this to me
Therapist Then protect them your there voices stop
making excuses for W. Stop worrying how she will feel
M it hit me like a truck I needed to hear that, my mind shifted
I realized that day my super hero cape never came off even with
there own mom. I treated W like a stranger because she is a stranger
My own kids don't recognize W behavior.
So please let W go, and remember God has something else plan for you
And your family. And if W is part of God plan then he will make it work
on his time. Let God guide you. Let go and give him all your trouble and pain.
Best wishes and will be following. Stay strong and remember
Is ok to be sad
Is ok to be mad
Is ok to cry
Is ok to be confused
Is ok to be angry
Is ok to not be ok
Remember is ok we are humans we all done mistakes
Update after the joint session:
Not sure how I feel about what I've learned. We didn't get through much and have all agreed to have another session to sort of pick up the conversations since we didn't really get them completed.
W started out telling me her feelings. She said she is happy with the changes that I've made and find them honorable and respects them but is concerned that it took a therapist and books to show me the love that I have for her and the things that I needed to change so therefore she sort of thinks they aren't real (I'm paraphrasing that last part). She said she's hesitant of believing that I am changing since there have been "empty promises" in the past. Said I've never supported her in the things that bring her joy and fulfillment and therefore she doesn't think I love her on a deeper, emotional level since I've never gotten to know her on those levels. Asked why my very instinctual habits would be changing now. She said she's having really hard time believing and grasping that I've become more religious, not eating as much and exercising, etc. (These are the changes that I've made in the past 4 weeks)
She went on say that the comments I've made to her have bounced with making her feel loved and hope for a better future but then telling her how much help I need and how damaged she is. (I think she's reading a lot into what I've said to her but I just tried to validate the entire time). I asked her to give an example of this and she didn't give any specific examples but said her "ears perk up very time I said something that she thinks is a jab at her or something to remind her that she is the one in the wrong or the one that needs help. She did state that I mentioned that I deserve the positive outcomes of what can come from working through this all in therapy, etc. moving forward since we've been together so long. She apparently didn't hear the whole comment because what I actually said was "I think we've both done things wrong in our relationship and I feel as though we both deserve to benefit from the positive changes in both of us moving forward. I specifically remembered telling her that SHE deserves a more emotionally available and loving husband in me moving forward since she's had to deal with the opposite for 9+ years. (A lot of what she said was picking and choosing what I said and taking them out of context however I didn't accuse her of that or address it. I sort of just let it pass by the entire time)
She went on to say that for some of these reasons she's not very confident that we won't end up right back where we are. She's concerned that this incident won't be held over her head moving forward (Even though I've told her a couple times that I will not bring up the past moving forward. That I think all of our time and effort needs to be focused on the present and future and bringing up the past isn't going to do anyone any good. I also expressed this again during the session today). She went on to say she thinks we can work on improving but a complete and total "change" is very "far fetched" given our history, she feels like "too much damage as been done." She kept referring to my "insults" lingering with her endlessly. She acknowledged that these comments were made out of anger (after finding out about incidents A, B, C - she mentioned comments of her promiscuity, unworthiness, or that she only gets attention because of her looks, etc.)
Long story short, there was just a lot of reading into my comments in the past, big time, and taking words out of context. I just don't know how to combat this when A) something was taken out of context or the full comment or thought wasn't shared and B) referring to the fact that all of the good things I've said are essentially set aside and not given any validity because I've said bad things in anger.
I completely understand that she has the right to be hesitant about the changes. Like its been discussed here in about every situation, you can't expect the other spouse to accept the changes after only a month. I can get past that because I know my changes are for me and for becoming a better version of myself. It's just the other things that she's holding against me that make me wonder if I stand a chance at all.
The whole session was just a lot of this same stuff. I'm just looking for some advice on how to proceed or if anyone has any pointers of what I can do better. I'm working on detaching because the outlook appears pretty grim at this point and I might as well start preparing myself now rather than later. I'm not going to be bringing up the R or M topic with her moving forward and I expressed that to her. I told her my door is always open to talk but I've said what I need to say to her and will not be coming to her with any of my thoughts or feelings moving forward.
Also, towards the end of the session her therapist asked her what are her feelings right now. The IC wondered if she was leaning one way or another or just unsure and her response was “right now I don’t see the point of working on it. It gives me so much anxiety to think about trying to work on our marriage. I can’t deny that I’ve not had any strong feelings within the past month to Reconcile and this time apart has felt as if a weight has been lifted off my shoulders.”
So here’s a question I’m struggling with....throughout the whole session her constant underlying theme seemed to be that I didn’t come to her with feelings and/or she never felt comfortable or “safe” coming to me with any feelings. Her exact words were “we’ve never had that connection or that best of friends relationship.” This mindset (from what she’s accusing me of) are basically exactly what the DBs techniques are. So, how do I do my own 180s when they would be directly opposite of the DB techniques?
“we’ve never had that connection or that best of friends relationship.”
Is this true, or just her current belief?
“we’ve never had that connection or that best of friends relationship.”
Is this true, or just her current belief?
Hard to say.....there might be some truth to it from her POV but I’ve thought of her as my best friend and I’ve come to her in vulnerable, emotional states when I’ve told her quite a few times over the past couple years that I wasn’t feeling as though she was speaking to my love language. I think she is maybe over exaggerating the extent of the “disconnect”.
Another theme in her thoughts today was she is tired of me “manipulating” or controlling her feelings. She said anytime we talk she ends up agreeing to my feelings or thoughts instead of her own. I wanted to state that while that wasn’t my intention and that is more her perception. If she has different thoughts and feelings and didn’t express them to me, I can’t read minds. So, if she was reluctantly agreed with me, she should have told me she was feeling otherwise. Again, if her mindset was she didn’t feel comfortable expressing those feelings, I understand that but at some point I feel as though you are at fault for allowing your thoughts to be manipulated or controlled by someone else if you never express otherwise. I didn’t say any of that, obviously, but it was what I was thinking! Instead I tried to validate.
concerned that it took a therapist and books to show me the love that I have for her and the things that I needed to change so therefore she sort of thinks they aren't real
hesitant of believing that I am changing since there have been "empty promises" in the past
I've never supported her in the things that bring her joy and fulfillment
why my very instinctual habits would be changing now
hard time believing and grasping that I've become more religious, not eating as much and exercising, etc. (These are the changes that I've made in the past 4 weeks)
picking and choosing what I said and taking them out of context
not very confident that we won't end up right back where we are
concerned that this incident won't be held over her head
a complete and total "change" is very "far fetched" given our history
"too much damage as been done."
These are all found in Ch. 2 of the WW Textbook. Your W and my W must be in the same class. Maybe they do their homework together in study hall?
I just don't know how to combat this when A) something was taken out of context or the full comment or thought wasn't shared and B) referring to the fact that all of the good things I've said are essentially set aside and not given any validity because I've said bad things in anger.
You don't combat it. That's not DB. You validate, yes. And take copious notes. She is giving you the gift of time, but she's also giving you a list of things to work on. Now, take them with a grain of salt, because they're exaggerated.
I completely understand that she has the right to be hesitant about the changes. Like its been discussed here in about every situation, you can't expect the other spouse to accept the changes after only a month. I can get past that because I know my changes are for me and for becoming a better version of myself. It's just the other things that she's holding against me that make me wonder if I stand a chance at all.
She won't really care much about your changes until she starts to get the feeling that some other nice lady will be the one to benefit from them.
You don't stand a chance at all. Not this you, not against this her. Not yet. At the end of the marathon, so I'm told, you stand a much better chance than you think if you DB hard.
The whole session was just a lot of this same stuff. I'm just looking for some advice on how to proceed or if anyone has any pointers of what I can do better.
You're having the same experience I had in MC. WW saw MC as just another tool in her tool belt. "See, we tried." Or, "You never listen to me, even when I bring it up in front of a professional!" For me, MC became a place for her to be mean and for me to get angrier and continue to place the focus on her. Neither of us enjoyed it, and it didn't improve our relationship. It gave her an easier out, and it gave me false hope for months. The false hope is what prevented me from seeing the reality of my situation and being more proactive about doing things FOR ME. But you might be better at this than me.
The best advice I got was advice I didn't take, from people here and from people in real life. Once my eyes were open I should have walked in there and said, "Hey, I'm done, this isn't going to help unless we're both all in." I didn't do it because I was afraid she would say, "OK, fine, then I'm out." In the end that's what she said anyway, except more strongly.
Specific advice? Let's see what others think about this, but here's what I can suggest. If you have another joint session, listen, validate, and when it comes time for you to say your side, give them something like this: "W, I hear your concerns and I understand what they are. I know that I can't erase them and I know that I can't change overnight. I'm working on improving myself. In the meantime, I don't think it's necessary/beneficial to attend these joint sessions. I would be happy to discuss working on the R with you when we're both at a place where that's a real possibility." Something like that. Maybe others on here can tidy up the language a bit.
But if you're anything like me, you'll have trouble saying that unless you're in a strong, positive, peaceful state of mind. Hence GAL. Especially exercise and time with good friends.
Thanks, Ready and burned. The whole time I was thinking to myself "she can't REALLY believe all of this can she?!" But she probably does 'at this stage'. I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.
I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.
W,
The main reason we end up here is because we don't understand woman and they don't understand us. As men we think using logic and reason. If I get divorced I will lose half the time with my kids, half my assets, if I ever get married again it will be a blended family which will be very hard and stressful.
A woman thinks with her emotions. I am not happy right now, the only way I can be happy is if I get rid of W. He is preventing me from my happiness. It has to be him what else could it be?
Now on the plus side when you think with logic that never changes. However, when you think with emotions that changes. How you feel today is not necessarily how you are going to feel in the future.
The point is, don't hold your breath that she is going to be thinking logically anytime soon. Women are just not built that way. That is why woman file for D 80% of the time.
I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.
W,
The main reason we end up here is because we don't understand woman and they don't understand us. As men we think using logic and reason. If I get divorced I will lose half the time with my kids, half my assets, if I ever get married again it will be a blended family which will be very hard and stressful.
A woman thinks with her emotions. I am not happy right now, the only way I can be happy is if I get rid of W. He is preventing me from my happiness. It has to be him what else could it be?
Now on the plus side when you think with logic that never changes. However, when you think with emotions that changes. How you feel today is not necessarily how you are going to feel in the future.
The point is, don't hold your breath that she is going to be thinking logically anytime soon. Women are just not built that way. That is why woman file for D 80% of the time.
LH, thanks so much. That makes a ton of sense.
Does anyone have any suggestions for the question I posted previously about my 180s sort of conflicting with the DB approach? She tells me I've never been there for her emotionally that we've never had that emotional connection, etc. If I keep distancing and detaching I fear that that will only confirm her fears that I can not change. I realize the change is for me, especially the detaching. However, I think most of us here realize that even though the DBs and changes we are instituting in ourselves are, ultimately, for us, we also hold out hope that they will also lead to R. That is my case anyway. I'm just looking for suggestions on how to implement not only my 180s but also continue proper DB techniques that will help me become stronger and prepare myself for what appears to me the road headed for D.
Read through Sandi's threads. And Steve usually chimes in on this specific issue. Basically, you can't 180 on those because it's a "new paradigm" or you missed the boat. She doesn't want to see those changes now. She says those are her concerns, but she has lost attraction to you and now she perceives those attempts as either manipulative or weak. So step 1 is regain her attraction by being a strong, desirable man. Those 180s come later, if/when there's R and MC.
I am just hoping and praying that she can tear down the walls she has guarded herself with and start thinking and speaking with logic instead of emotions.
W,
The main reason we end up here is because we don't understand woman and they don't understand us. As men we think using logic and reason. If I get divorced I will lose half the time with my kids, half my assets, if I ever get married again it will be a blended family which will be very hard and stressful.
A woman thinks with her emotions. I am not happy right now, the only way I can be happy is if I get rid of W. He is preventing me from my happiness. It has to be him what else could it be?
Now on the plus side when you think with logic that never changes. However, when you think with emotions that changes. How you feel today is not necessarily how you are going to feel in the future.
The point is, don't hold your breath that she is going to be thinking logically anytime soon. Women are just not built that way. That is why woman file for D 80% of the time.
So true. I will add that along with your main reason we end up here is that logic and reason aren't working with this emotional creature and I have no where else to turn. The alternative is insanity (doing the same things over and over again expecting a different result). Which always amazes me when a guy ends up here, saying "nothing I am doing (logic and reasoN) are working". And then they spend the next few weeks bucking everything they are learning about DBing.
Arthur Conan Doyle said: "Once you eliminate the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth."
Logic and reason in our sitches are impossible. That leaves DBing to remain, which though improbable is the only way forward.
Read through Sandi's threads. And Steve usually chimes in on this specific issue. Basically, you can't 180 on those because it's a "new paradigm" or you missed the boat. She doesn't want to see those changes now. She says those are her concerns, but she has lost attraction to you and now she perceives those attempts as either manipulative or weak. So step 1 is regain her attraction by being a strong, desirable man. Those 180s come later, if/when there's R and MC.
Burned, well said. This nails it. You 180 for yourself, not to change her mind. She will see through it every time.
W,
In regards to this you have to realize is just because she says this doesn't mean it is necessarily true. The only thing you can do in regards to this is to validate her feelings.
Trust me the last thing she wants right now is an emotional connection with you.
Burned, that makes a ton of sense. Thank you.
LH and Steve, thanks again. You are all on the same page and that gives me quite a bit of comfort.
Read through Sandi's threads. And Steve usually chimes in on this specific issue. Basically, you can't 180 on those because it's a "new paradigm" or you missed the boat. She doesn't want to see those changes now. She says those are her concerns, but she has lost attraction to you and now she perceives those attempts as either manipulative or weak. So step 1 is regain her attraction by being a strong, desirable man. Those 180s come later, if/when there's R and MC.
Burned, well said. This nails it. You 180 for yourself, not to change her mind. She will see through it every time.
Steve I'm sure I plagiarized that directly from something you wrote sometime in August!
And for members of the audience, after he said that, I spent another month or two trying to use "logic and reason" as an excuse to not do what was recommended. Why? Out of fear.
So Wanted1, throw logic and reason out the window and start thinking like a WW: "I do what I want when I want because I feel like it!"
This kind of falls in line with what burned stated, but I think I provided a decent amount of 180ing (or however you want to state it) during that joint session yesterday. I kept validating what she said and although a couple times I said, "I understand how it came off that way...." or "I understand how it could feel that way but those were not my intentions at all." I think I handled it far better than I would have in the past which before would have been me trying to justify my side or justify my feelings and what I meant. Maybe that got her wheels turning, I don't know. But if I surprised myself a little bit I can't help but think maybe I surprised her as well.
My plan is to do the exact same thing in the next session which hasn't been scheduled yet.
Like I said before, up until last night this "limbo" as been absolutely killing me and giving me great anxiety. I have since realized that this "limbo" has given me the advantage of time. Time to show her that the changes I'm making for myself are sincere, honest and will stick moving forward. I completely understand that she can't view them as honest yet. It's only been a month. I can't expect her to move past the 7+ years or however long she is referring to just because I've changed for only 4 weeks. I need this time to prove to her that my changes aren't just "to get her back."
I'm also hoping that since she pretty much bottom-lined it for everyone in the session yesterday that she's still leaning toward D and "sees no point in working it out" that if I keep up with my changes moving forward she will realize that I'm doing them for me. Now that she's told me she feels as though there is little chance at R, at this point, and I stop with my changes it will be pretty obvious I was doing them for her. If she sees me continuing to make the changes in the face of a possible D, maybe that will help her realize that they are true and not just for her and she can believe in them. I'm going to keep trying to look at it from that point of view.
"I understand how it came off that way...." or "I understand how it could feel that way but those were not my intentions at all."
The word "YOU" needs to be in there twice as much, no? Wondering what other people think. But saying, "I understand why YOU felt that way" puts the focus on her, not just "I" or "it" which is just like saying "I" without saying it.
Plus, beware of the word "but." That negates everything you said before the "but." Translation: "I understand how it could feel that way" (great! he gets it!) "but those were not my intentions at all." (bummer, it's still about HIM and not me, and he thinks his intentions justify how MY feelings changed). And remember that her perception/feelings is her reality. So when you say "but" you're saying she's wrong. Backfires.
As for seeing no point in working it out, my experience was that MC didn't change that. It gave her more opportunities to see me not really changing very quickly, and flailing and trying to adapt the changes based on her responses. It was obvious to a child that I was just trying to "win her back." It gave her the right to say "we tried." And it gave me false hope, like I said.
Do the kind of 180 that makes your stomach churn. Show her that you're a man who values himself enough to take a stand for what HE wants. "I'm sorry, W, I can't participate in joint therapy or MC at this time. The opinion from psychologists and counseling professionals is that MC doesn't work unless both parties are invested in R. I would be happy to try this again if or when you're ready to make that kind of commitment."
Or let her drag you around and make it worse.
If she sees me continuing to make the changes in the face of a possible D, maybe that will help her realize that they are true and not just for her and she can believe in them. I'm going to keep trying to look at it from that point of view.
You see W, here is the rub. This statement alone tells us that these changes are for her. Women have a sixth sense in regards to this and she will know. It is only when you have dropped the rope and moved on and are actually making changes for yourself will she turn around and look back.
You have a journey of 1,000 mikes ahead of you and the only way to get there is to take it one step at a time.
Posted somewhere by Steve (paraphrased):
too much hope: DBing for her
very little hope: DBing for you
no hope: filing
Posted somewhere by AnotherStander (paraphrased):
First we start DBing to get a response from her. Then we start DBing for us but we keep looking over our shoulder to see if it is affecting her. Then we finally get to DBing for ourselves without thinking about how it affects her. The sooner you get to that 3rd kind of DBing, the better.
Steve again: Let her go to get her back.
I haven’t read everything. But be careful with using “I understand” as part of your validation. A lot of times, you might be listening and hearing, but understanding means more of bringing those feelings of hers into your own. And sometimes it isn’t possible to truly understand until you’ve lived through whatever she might be saying. For example, my fiancé has a very strained R with her dad - when she talks about how he disappointed her, I tell her “I understand how you must be feeling” but she tells me that I can’t possibly understand because I dont have those same experiences. It’s ok sometimes, but just be careful as it can be taken as invalidating.
Not sure if you're into self-help books but there's a good one on validation called I Hear You by Michael Sorenson.
You can't really understand any other person, but you can identify and reflect the emotion they are trying to convey. "I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't stop crying. I lost my entire herd of cattle in a barn fire." Do you understand that? I don't. I mean I can picture it but have I ever been a farmer whose livelihood is derived from intact living animals? No. So it's more like, "I'm sorry to hear that, you must be devastated." Or maybe you're not sorry because you were playing with matches nearby and you suspect that the farmer thinks it's your fault. So more like, "How horrible! I'm sure anyone would feel despondent after going through something like that."
A prerequisite to validation is empathy, having a basic emotional vocabulary and sensitivity that allows you to discern the key feeling the other person is trying to convey. You can say exactly the right thing for offering condolences to someone whose beefers are all well done and they're sad about it. But if they're angry, or happy, and you validate the sadness that you think they're experiencing because that's what YOU would feel, you did it wrong.
Plus you have to be in the right state of mind. If you're emotional, you can't really sense the other person's emotions, and the whole thing becomes all about you again. And that's why you GAL.
Not sure if you're into self-help books but there's a good one on validation called I Hear You by Michael Sorenson.
You can't really understand any other person, but you can identify and reflect the emotion they are trying to convey. "I can't sleep, I can't eat, I can't stop crying. I lost my entire herd of cattle in a barn fire." Do you understand that? I don't. I mean I can picture it but have I ever been a farmer whose livelihood is derived from intact living animals? No. So it's more like, "I'm sorry to hear that, you must be devastated." Or maybe you're not sorry because you were playing with matches nearby and you suspect that the farmer thinks it's your fault. So more like, "How horrible! I'm sure anyone would feel despondent after going through something like that."
A prerequisite to validation is empathy, having a basic emotional vocabulary and sensitivity that allows you to discern the key feeling the other person is trying to convey. You can say exactly the right thing for offering condolences to someone whose beefers are all well done and they're sad about it. But if they're angry, or happy, and you validate the sadness that you think they're experiencing because that's what YOU would feel, you did it wrong.
Plus you have to be in the right state of mind. If you're emotional, you can't really sense the other person's emotions, and the whole thing becomes all about you again. And that's why you GAL.
I downloaded that book on Audible last week. Started listening to it but then my DR book showed up so I concentrated on reading through that. I was planning on pickup up where I left on in 'I Hear You' and will make it a priority to finish it before this next joint session.
Just be careful. I don’t know if there’s any way to avoid it, but she will probably notice how you’re responding differently and may call you on it. Have a plan for how to respond. “I realized that my listening skills weren’t what I wanted them to be, so I’m working on them.” See, when they ask why, keep the focus on you. Then they are less likely to perceive it as manipulative. Ideally she should see an improvement and think, “Hey, he’s become a neat guy, not sure if I want to pass on that.”
But it takes time and don’t feel bad if you botch it before you start getting it right.
Also keep in mind that you can’t really win right now, so...another important component of this whole craziness is ZERO EXPECTATIONS. If you’re satisfied with how you responded well to a woman who expressed her feelings, pat yourself on the back. You learned a new skill that will serve you in life. It should make no difference to you whether it had any effect on her.
I stumbled today and I'm ready for the 2x4s that come flying at me....
I texted this to my W today: "Is your mind completely made up? 100%"
Her response: "I don't know how to answer that. I've never once said to myself "I'm done listening to what he has to say and my mind is made up." That's why I've wanted us to take our time and act out of wisdom and not emotion. Do some self discovery and figure out why we've been where we were and evaluate how to move forward. I've been receiving and thinking deeply about everything you've said to me."
I then responded with a "Thank you so much."
So, can I get some input on how I should take this? Or if I should even believe it?
I have my first phone call with a DB coach tomorrow afternoon. So, I'm excited for that.
Wow, another hit from the WW back catalog!
“I don’t know how to answer that.” I got that one a few times. Along with, “I’m sorry, i can’t answer that right now.” And “thinking deeply” sounds like what I got about “I don’t take this lightly.”
Asking that question is pursuit. Keep asking, and see if you like the answer you eventually get.
I didn’t.
I don't see anything unreasonable about her response. Wouldn't it be smart to know why you got to this point? Acting out of wisdom sound smart to me too.
You thanking her for not saying she wanted a divorce just made you look weak. You might as well have said "Oh I am so relieved you aren't divorcing me! Thank you!". You should have just tried to understand her point, which was a good point IMO.
I don't see anything unreasonable about her response. Wouldn't it be smart to know why you got to this point? Acting out of wisdom sound smart to me too.
You thanking her for not saying she wanted a divorce just made you look weak. You might as well have said "Oh I am so relieved you aren't divorcing me! Thank you!". You should have just tried to understand her point, which was a good point IMO.
Well, I guess I considered it good news. Was hoping it wasnt wishful thinking or me seeing something that wasn’t there. Hard to judge when it’s your sitch.
She was pretty freaking forthcoming with the rewritten history of our M and how terrible I was the entire duration of it in the joint therapy session we had. I just want hope which I guess this message gave me. Now whether or not her decision ends up leaving me is up to her and something I can’t control. I’m not going to lie, the response gave me a more positive attitude and helps me continue to be positive around her. The roller coaster was flying downhill pretty fast and made me pretty weak when I sent the initial text to her.
I agree, I sounded pretty damn weak in my response. Back 2 steps for me I suppose. Going to try to keep treading forward with DBs. Hopefully the coach tomorrow has good pointers to keep me on track.
She makes sense, so id be pleased with that. You have time to work on yourself, validate her feelings when the situation calls for it, and to set goals for yourself. Use your time wisely.
She makes sense, so id be pleased with that. You have time to work on yourself, validate her feelings when the situation calls for it, and to set goals for yourself. Use your time wisely.
Very good advice. Thank you. I feel like I’ve been given the GIFT of time instead of previously where the time was killing me. I’ve come to appreciate it.
Not sure if my sitch is different since the BD was technically from me after I found the most recent affair. However, since then she’s given me NO indications that she’s willing to work on our M. In fact, pretty much the opposite. Especially on Monday when the therapist asked if my W was thinking about trying to work on it and her response was “I don’t see the point”. Even with that, I feel like my best route moving forward is giving her her time and space, not go to her with my feelings and continue to obviously show her that I’m working hard at becoming a better version of myself.
I presume everyone agrees with that?
Her response: "I don't know how to answer that. I've never once said to myself "I'm done listening to what he has to say and my mind is made up." That's why I've wanted us to take our time and act out of wisdom and not emotion. Do some self discovery and figure out why we've been where we were and evaluate how to move forward. I've been receiving and thinking deeply about everything you've said to me."
Your wife sounds wise.
Set her free. Keep working on yourself. Do not temp check her.
I stumbled today and I'm ready for the 2x4s that come flying at me....
I texted this to my W today: "Is your mind completely made up? 100%"
Her response: "I don't know how to answer that. I've never once said to myself "I'm done listening to what he has to say and my mind is made up." That's why I've wanted us to take our time and act out of wisdom and not emotion. Do some self discovery and figure out why we've been where we were and evaluate how to move forward. I've been receiving and thinking deeply about everything you've said to me."
I then responded with a "Thank you so much."
So, can I get some input on how I should take this? Or if I should even believe it?
I have my first phone call with a DB coach tomorrow afternoon. So, I'm excited for that.
I don’t understand why you would even ask that. Next time, post those questions here. What does it even mean? How does what YOU need to do change if she says “yes”, “no”, “iguana” or any of what she actually said? Furthermore, the saying round here is “don’t believe anything she says”...so then just because she said “good” words, what can you even take from it.
Let me ask you - what was your GOAL in asking this question?
W,
You essentially thanked her for considering not divorcing you after she cheated on you 3 times. WTF???????
What kind of value for yourself are you communicating to her? Hi or low?
Look, I am not saying you shouldn't giver her another chance at some point. She has some serious work to do first.
Then she needs to earn another chance with you. It's the only way it works out long-term.
What she threw out in the joint session really hit home with me. I think she over exaggerated A LOT of what she infers by my inactions, actions and words to her. Basically everything I do or say she takes the exact opposite of what I meant or intended which was so bizarre. The whole premises of what she said throughout the entire session was essentially that I controlled or manipulated her feelings throughout the entire R, she wasn't allowed to be 'herself' and I didn't support anything she does, etc. Something that was a complete surprise to me. I had no clue that was the case or that's how she felt. I tend to think a lot of it was a rewriting of our history but at the same time I understand how she could have felt that way and it makes sense looking back on it, just not to the extreme amounts she tried to portray.
That brings this question up that I am going to ask my IC next week but will also pose to you all: How much of feeling as though your thoughts and feelings are being controlled and manipulated by your S falls on you vs. the spouse that's doing the 'controlling'? She VERY rarely would say 'well I don't see it that way' or 'this is how I feel about xxx'. How can I know that her thoughts and feelings are different than mine when they aren't expressed? The more I think about it, some of that needs to fall on her for not expressing those to me to make me aware that she thought differently about something. Now, I empathize with her presumed response that she felt scared or anxious to share her thoughts but at some point she probably needed to be true to herself and standup for what she thought or felt. Which, ironically, is what I've wanted from her for a long time. That's the past though. Neither of us can change that and I think she's working through how to 'be herself' right now which is what gives her great pause it trying to work through all of this and work on our M.
Although I didn't agree with everything she said and she overly exaggerated a lot of it, I do see her point. I wasn't there for her emotionally. I wanted to be in the worst way but when she shuts down my mentality was she needed to come to me. It was 'her problem.' I didn't look inwardly and realize I was probably a major part of our emotional disconnect and broken communication.
I think those thoughts and feelings and my inability to look inward were probably overshadowed by the betrayals. As you all know, its hard to forgive you W for betraying you by having and A. Even harder when you (I) are too stubborn to realize that we should have gotten help with our M through MC or some other avenue after the first time instead of kind of sweeping it under the rug and trying to work through it all on your own which is exactly what I did/we did. I had never been to any type of counseling or therapy until a month ago. Betrayals like that nuke your self-confidence as you all know. I've tried to express that to her and have told her its hard for her to understand being in my shoes because I think you have to experience it to really understand what it feels like. And in my situation, rather than look at 'What can WE do to fix our M' I always had the opinion that she was the broken one and she was the one that needed fixed since she was the one that betrayed me. Totally ignorant, I know. It never occurred to me previously that she was reaching out to these OM for something I wasn't giving her - an emotional connection. When you couple that with the exterior validation she seeks because of the past sexual abuse in her life it's a recipe for disaster. I'm not trying to defend her actions. They were despicable and there are no excuses whatsoever to cheat. BUT, I do empathize now with how they took place. The exterior validation was something her therapist brought up to her that can be a cause of sexual abuse. She is also an Enneagram Type 3, which it's description refers to needing exterior validation. (If you haven't heard of the Enneagram Test before, google it, it's pretty interesting)
So, in the end, I think everyone sees their situation as 'different' and I guess everyone's is different. Lots of similarities, obviously, but just as much different as they are similar too. Maybe I'm wrong, and somebody can give give it to me straight if I'm not thinking logically about this, but since she really hasn't given me a BD yet, I'm not sure if DBing is effective, at this stage of my situation, since my W hasn't told me point blank 'I want out.' When the techniques associated with DBing are in direct contrast to what my 180s should be, I'm not sure if I'm at a point where I should be implementing them yet. Not all of them at least. After the conversation yesterday, I haven't brought up the R and don't plan to. I'm going to go with the old adage 'actions speak louder than words,' especially if I take her at her word that she hasn't made up her mind definitively. I will say it "appears" as though she's reaching out to me more just in the past 24 hours since the conversation. Maybe that's me over analyzing, which very well could me. Sort of wishful thinking. That could definitely be the case. I will say, after reading what she said, it's helped my positive attitude immensely and before I feel I was implementing the positive attitude whenever she is around pretty well. I have my first DB coach phone call today so I'm anxious to see what he has to say on it all.
That brings this question up that I am going to ask my IC next week but will also pose to you all: How much of feeling as though your thoughts and feelings are being controlled and manipulated by your S falls on you vs. the spouse that's doing the 'controlling'? She VERY rarely would say 'well I don't see it that way' or 'this is how I feel about xxx'. How can I know that her thoughts and feelings are different than mine when they aren't expressed? The more I think about it, some of that needs to fall on her for not expressing those to me to make me aware that she thought differently about something. Now, I empathize with her presumed response that she felt scared or anxious to share her thoughts but at some point she probably needed to be true to herself and standup for what she thought or felt. Which, ironically, is what I've wanted from her for a long time. That's the past though. Neither of us can change that and I think she's working through how to 'be herself' right now which is what gives her great pause it trying to work through all of this and work on our M.
I love that you realize you can't change the past. The problem is that you spend most of this paragraph concerned about something you can't control. Her and her thoughts. So forget that. Double-down on controlling yourself. Worrying about what she thinks and feels is a cheeseless tunnel. Don't spend energy on that. Allowing someone to control you is on YOU. Because again you can't control the other person. Ironically, we sometimes forget that they can't control us....unless we allow it. So don't.
Stop obsessing about how to fix her....fix yourself.
So, in the end, I think everyone sees their situation as 'different' and I guess everyone's is different. Lots of similarities, obviously, but just as much different as they are similar too. Maybe I'm wrong, and somebody can give give it to me straight if I'm not thinking logically about this, but since she really hasn't given me a BD yet, I'm not sure if DBing is effective, at this stage of my situation, since my W hasn't told me point blank 'I want out.' When the techniques associated with DBing are in direct contrast to what my 180s should be, I'm not sure if I'm at a point where I should be implementing them yet. Not all of them at least. After the conversation yesterday, I haven't brought up the R and don't plan to. I'm going to go with the old adage 'actions speak louder than words,' especially if I take her at her word that she hasn't made up her mind definitively. I will say it "appears" as though she's reaching out to me more just in the past 24 hours since the conversation. Maybe that's me over analyzing, which very well could me. Sort of wishful thinking. That could definitely be the case. I will say, after reading what she said, it's helped my positive attitude immensely and before I feel I was implementing the positive attitude whenever she is around pretty well. I have my first DB coach phone call today so I'm anxious to see what he has to say on it all.
Yes, most people think their sitch is unique. What is similar about all of them is they think that also means DBing can't work. But here is the question for you: what is the alternative?
See you really only have two choices. Pursue and pressure. Or DB: Let her go, GAL,180 where you know you made mistakes, detach, and be the H only a fool would leave.
Do you know how many sitches pursuit and pressure works in? It is a curve approaching 0. DBing is no guarantee, but you have exponentially better odds DBing over pursuit and pressure.
And please provide an example the illustrates the bolded text above. I've heard so many posters here say "I ignored her, so I should 180 on that, but DBing says I need to detach". This show a blatant lack of understanding of detachment. NO WHERE ANYWHERE IN THE BOOKS OR ON THIS SITE DOES IT SAY THAT DETACHMENT MEANS IGNORING!!!! Sorry, but having to repeat that over and over again get frustrating.
What she threw out in the joint session really hit home with me. I think she over exaggerated A LOT of what she infers by my inactions, actions and words to her. Basically everything I do or say she takes the exact opposite of what I meant or intended which was so bizarre. The whole premises of what she said throughout the entire session was essentially that I controlled or manipulated her feelings throughout the entire R, she wasn't allowed to be 'herself' and I didn't support anything she does, etc. Something that was a complete surprise to me. I had no clue that was the case or that's how she felt. I tend to think a lot of it was a rewriting of our history but at the same time I understand how she could have felt that way and it makes sense looking back on it, just not to the extreme amounts she tried to portray.
Bro, this is STANDARD STUFF and it's the reason I think MC is garbage right now. In my case WW used it to make me look bad, make me feel bad, justify her actions, make everyone else think we "tried"... should I go on? Steve was there watching me circle the drain. Not sure if the worst part was before I joined this board but it was BAD. And stupid me, thinking "Oh let's talk about feelings and OM and see if we can't work something out." To use Amoafwl's terminology,
bullhockey. "Let's see if MC can help me decide if I want to recommit to the M." Bullhockey WW tactics. Don't take the bait.
She made her decision before you ever even knew she was MAKING one. MC won't change that. The best advice I got was from Steve here and we discussed the pros and cons of just ditching it. I should have ditched it. Hindsight, by the time I got to the board she had already gone back to OM so nothing I did would probably have made a difference at that point.
I've heard so many posters here say "I ignored her, so I should 180 on that, but DBing says I need to detach". This show a blatant lack of understanding of detachment. NO WHERE ANYWHERE IN THE BOOKS OR ON THIS SITE DOES IT SAY THAT DETACHMENT MEANS IGNORING!!!! Sorry, but having to repeat that over and over again get frustrating.
Two things here:
1. Steve is right.
2. Steve is right.
3. Steve is right, and others will also tell you, every time, that the rules have changed. No,
the entire game has changed. In my case, BD happened because I was "checked out." So I pursued and pressured to prove that I was all in again. And that got me nowhere. The old game is over. You're not counting touchdowns anymore. You're playing tennis now, so you have to win at least 4 points at least 6 times at least twice to win the match. And that's if the other player is phoning it in. Which the WW is not.
4. Steve is right because he has taken all of the crazy huge amounts of information all over thee boards and distilled it down to like 3 or 4 things you just do it, do it, do it, don't question it, and save yourself MONTHS of pain. Go back to my posts from August and see what happens when you don't listen to Steve.
OK, that was 4 things. But I think you needed a 2x4 early in the game because you have SO much more potential at this point before you start doing things to make it worse.
That being said, you did point out something crucial. Write down everything she said, once you're done being ticked off about how she exaggerated it. THOSE are the things you need to 180 on, at some point. But not to show her how "all in" you are. That will backfire.
since she really hasn't given me a BD yet, I'm not sure if DBing is effective, at this stage of my situation, since my W hasn't told me point blank 'I want out.'
Don't wait for her to say it. It'll hurt when you hear it. And if you're here it's because she already DID something to BD you. And what percentage of what she says are we supposed to believe? ZERO.
DBing would have been effective A YEAR AGO or more. It's definitely effective YESTERDAY and if you're not doing it TODAY you're wasting precious time.
You're using terms like "overanalyze" and "wishful thinking" and "logically" and "reaching out." Man, you and I are going to be very good friends, so get ready. And I mean that with as much compassion as I can convey across the interwebs.
I love that you realize you can't change the past. The problem is that you spend most of this paragraph concerned about something you can't control. Her and her thoughts. So forget that. Double-down on controlling yourself. Worrying about what she thinks and feels is a cheeseless tunnel. Don't spend energy on that. Allowing someone to control you is on YOU. Because again you can't control the other person. Ironically, we sometimes forget that they can't control us....unless we allow it. So don't.
Stop obsessing about how to fix her....fix yourself.
So her blaming ME for controlling and manipulating HER throughout our M is basically more on her and less on me then right? That's kind of the conclusion I came to since my intention has NEVER been to control or manipulate her....I'm obviously not going to say that to her and I've been validating her feelings on the subject. Hopefully, if I'm understanding you correctly, either my IC or her IC in our next joint session can address that with her. If she's allowing herself to be controlled or manipulated by my thoughts and feelings, that really isn't something that I should be blamed for...
Regarding the rest of your post.... Maybe I misinterpreted what I mean or very possibly misunderstood the DBing techniques. So, are you saying that I'm not really ignoring the DBing techniques if I instigate conversations with her about things other than our R and M? For example, asking how her meeting went and actually being interested in how it went, etc. Or, saying 'Good Night' to her. Or, complimenting her on an outfit, her hair or anything else?
We both posted at the exact same time so please go back and read the previous one.
So her blaming ME for controlling and manipulating HER throughout our M is basically more on her and less on me then right? That's kind of the conclusion I came to since my intention has NEVER been to control or manipulate her....I'm obviously not going to say that to her and I've been validating her feelings on the subject. Hopefully, if I'm understanding you correctly, either my IC or her IC in our next joint session can address that with her. If she's allowing herself to be controlled or manipulated by my thoughts and feelings, that really isn't something that I should be blamed for...
Here's where it gets dicey. You're being too logical. You're trying to make sense of the words that people use to explain feelings. AND, you're doing it under the worst possible conditions. Because the feelings don't line up with reality. And the words are being used for a purpose that is more than just explaining feelings. It's completely jacked up.
Nothing is more on her and less on you. It's 50/50 in any relationship. But now she is trying to take your 50% and put it right up close so that it LOOKS bigger than your 50%. Like how a guy standing off in the distance looks really small compared to the guy standing next to you.
So don't let her, at least not in your heart. Own your side of it, but don't let her exaggerations force you to take more of the blame than you deserve. At this point she is actively trying to make you look bad and feel bad to suit her present needs.
Do NOT expect logic. In fact, use your logic skills to determine at least two explanations that make less sense. And those are the ones that are more likely to be true.
Edit: great opportunity to "grok" an aspect of what detachment is. It's when you take that entire paragraph of what she said during MC or joint counseling or whatever it was...and not let it bother you at all. It shouldn't affect your understanding of reality. It shouldn't make you angry or sad or anything. R2C will jump in and translate for you: "Blah blah blah blah blah."
Regarding the rest of your post.... Maybe I misinterpreted what I mean or very possibly misunderstood the DBing techniques. So, are you saying that I'm not really ignoring the DBing techniques if I instigate conversations with her about things other than our R and M? For example, asking how her meeting went and actually being interested in how it went, etc. Or, saying 'Good Night' to her. Or, complimenting her on an outfit, her hair or anything else?
Remember, exterior validation is something that she "craves," for lack of a better term. Maybe that's too harsh, I don't know. But at this point, I feel as though I'm exterior with the situation we are in, and those are things I probably didn't do enough in the past so by instilling those into my changes moving forward, that would essentially be a 180 for me. 2 birds, 1 stone type of a thing -- playing into her need for validation as well as showing her a change in me.
showing her a change in me.
Re: above. No; yes. That's DB in about as few words as possible.
Edit: great opportunity to "grok" an aspect of what detachment is. It's when you take that entire paragraph of what she said during MC or joint counseling or whatever it was...and not let it bother you at all. It shouldn't affect your understanding of reality. It shouldn't make you angry or sad or anything. R2C will jump in and translate for you: "Blah blah blah blah blah."
The F'd up thing about this is that at the time and on the hour long car ride home, it didn't. I know I portrayed to her that it didn't because it honestly didn't really affect me in any sort of way, at that time. It wasn't until I was back home and digested it the next day that it started to bug me....and I get that both of us are giving "our sides" of the story and therefore the truth probably lies in the middle. And that middle ground clearly puts blame on me for where we are. Something I understand and wished I would have understood a long time ago.
Appreciate the advice and comments, burned.
exterior validation is something that she "craves,"
Yes and that's how they end up in an A. Something is broken inside them, and they think validation comes from outside. They decide the kind you're giving them isn't the kind they need, or you're not giving them enough of it. So they try to find it elsewhere.
Don't let that "elsewhere" be you. It's tempting in the early stages. But you're just kicking the can down the road.
She needs to heal from that mindset and then decide that you are the person she wants to spend her life with. Not a bucket full of free validation. That's OM crap. You're better than that.
It wasn't until I was back home and digested it the next day that it started to bug me....
Yup. For me it had to percolate for about 12 hours. Woke up at 2 AM in a rage when it sort of hit me what was happening. Thankfully I was already physically S so nobody heard me screaming and kickboxing the mattress. "It's so unfair!" Anger.
Anger = unmet expectations. So drop the expectations.
.... I get that both of us are giving "our sides" of the story and therefore the truth probably lies in the middle.....
Don't worry about your side of the story. It is just a story.....IT IS JUST A STORY!!!!
Listen to her side of the story...IT IS HER STORY......
W:"Bla bla bla bla"
Pause
H:"You must have felt so lonely" (Or whatever YOU would feel like if this happened to YOU!)
.... I get that both of us are giving "our sides" of the story and therefore the truth probably lies in the middle.....
Nope. Google "orthogonal rotation" for some really nerdy statistics concepts. The truth isn't in the middle, it's like 90 degrees off to the left, in the corner with a teddy bear waiting for this to all blow over.
Hey buddy. I worry that I was a bit too direct with you yesterday. I only meant well, but I'm sorry if my actions didn't match my intentions.
Today is a new day. You can do this.
Hey buddy. I worry that I was a bit too direct with you yesterday. I only meant well, but I'm sorry if my actions didn't match my intentions.
Today is a new day. You can do this.
Not at all, burned. Not at all. No need to apologize because I know you mean well. I always appreciate your posts.
Thought I would share this tidbit I got from my DB coach yesterday with anyone reading my post. He explained detaching with love
very, very well to me. He said to think of my W as my sister right now. You love your siblings, but in a different way than your S. When detaching with love you need to treat your W how you would treat your sister. He said when your sister has a bad day or is in a seemingly bad mood, that doesn't usually translate to your feelings and emotions becoming negative as well. Basically, your feelings shouldn't/can't mirror her feelings and emotions. Don't let your W's bad mood ruin your day. I thought this was a phenomenal way to look at how to detach with love. Helped me out big time. I realize that I can still interact with my W in a loving way but if she's having a bad day, I can't let that get me down. Continue to be positive and upbeat. I think before I was confusing detaching with love with more or less going dark. Two totally different techniques and mindsets.
A lot of the hour phone call was me explaining my sitch, so I think I'll get more out of the next phone call with him in a week or so, but I mentioned it sort of bothers me that my W isn't wearing her wedding ring. He asked if I was wearing mine, which I am. He told me to "play" with it a little bit. Randomly decide to not wear it a few days here and there just to see what happens. I'm going to try this. I kind of suspect nothing will come of it. My W, at this stage of her life, I think is too prideful (if that's the right word) to actually ask me why I'm not wearing it if she notices I'm not. I'm still going to give it a try though. He said if she does ask about it to not place blame with an answer like "Well, you aren't wearing yours so I figured I won't wear mine." Instead, say something like, "I've never been here before, so I don't really know what to do. I'm just trying different things to see how I feel about them."
He also said GAL is very important. More times than not when the LBS starts GAL, that is when you will see a positive turnaround. I'm working hard on GAL. Hard to do in a small town where there isn't much to do, but with it being in the midst of hunting season, I'm going to try to get out and do that quite a bit over the next few weeks. Also plan to take a trip to see a friend one of these upcoming weekends. I'm a little confused with GAL, though. Can you GAL around the house or is the theme of GAL more or less getting out of the house and doing things? I've been GAL around the house. After I'm done with getting kids to bed, etc. I do my own thing - watch football, basketball, my TV shows (that we used to watch together), reading the self-help books I've gotten over the past couple weeks, working out, etc. I'm not sure if that falls under the category of GAL or not.
I'm a little confused with GAL, though. Can you GAL around the house or is the theme of GAL more or less getting out of the house and doing things? I've been GAL around the house. After I'm done with getting kids to bed, etc. I do my own thing - watch football, basketball, my TV shows (that we used to watch together), reading the self-help books I've gotten over the past couple weeks, working out, etc. I'm not sure if that falls under the category of GAL or not.
I believe so. As long as you are enjoying what you are doing. As long as you are balancing it with other GAL.
It is all about doing what YOU WANT TO DO.
The received wisdom here is that the best GAL activities are the ones that get you out of the house interacting with other humans in real life. Hunting with a new buddy, meeting up with strangers to try a new hobby, things like that. It allows you to be a little bit "hard to get" because suddenly you have a lot going on and you're not as available to your W when she expects you to be. It allows you to meet new people who can provide the kind of connection that you may not be able to have with your W at the moment. And it helps you feel more confident about yourself, thereby improving your interactions with W.
Wanted, that's some top-notch advice from your DB coach! I wish more people here took advantage of the coaches because they really know their stuff and convey more in an hour to you than we can in weeks of typing stuff out. Follow that advice, it'll net you great results!
Need some advice on how to proceed....
Found out tonight my wife is still talking to OM. Here is what I think I’m gonna do, but any suggestions are appreciated.
Me: W, are you still talking to OM?
If she lies, tell her I’ve got proof. If she admits it —
Me: Ok, I think it’s terribly disrespectful to me and our marriage that you are continuing this. I don’t care if it’s “nothing”. It IS something given the history. I can’t allow such disrespect so you have a choice you are going to have to make. You can either cease talking to him and continue sleeping the basement and living in the MH while we figure out what’s next or if you want to continue talking to him, I’ll give you a couple days for you to get other arrangements figured out and then I’m going to need you to move out.
Thoughts? I’m going to be extremely calm during the convo.
People like R2C, AS, LH, or Steve could probably help you come up with an appropriate way to address WW. My only suggestion is hide your source of info. Its something I have not been good at doing. Once W knows the source she may shut that source down making it harder for you to know what's going on. If knowing what she is doing outside the MR matters to you. Whether you know what she is or isn't doing outside the MR shouldn't change your DB efforts.
People like R2C, AS, LH, or Steve could probably help you come up with an appropriate way to address WW. My only suggestion is hide your source of info. Its something I have not been good at doing. Once W knows the source she may shut that source down making it harder for you to know what's going on. If knowing what she is doing outside the MR matters to you. Whether you know what she is or isn't doing outside the MR shouldn't change your DB efforts.
He lives about 4 hours away so I’m not worried about them meeting up. However I caught her messaging him tonight in the house. I need to set a boundary. That’s why I want to bring it up to her.
If I were you, I would read every post by PuppyDogTails before taking action.
You only have one shot at doing this right.
PDT:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&id=19113&type=tDoing things at the right time is important.
W,
You definitely do not want to say what you wrote in your thread because it is more of an ultimatum and they don't work with WW.
The problem you have now is she has all the power in the relationship and she knows it. Again, I am not pounding on you but when she had multiple indiscretions and you over looked it and thanked her for not ding you it was a major setback.
Unless you are willing to set a strong boundary you are probably best just leaving it alone. Remember you can't control what she does, you can only decide what you are willing to tolerate.
Don't think for a second that I know this isn't easy. This is probably the hardest thing you will ever go through. Right now all the decisions you are making are to stop the pain. Unfortunately you have to walk right through it.
Before you do anything, stop and ask yourself, will this action make me look strong or weak.
Well, I did what I said I was gonna do. She kept trying to assure me “it’s nothing” and I said that is not accurate. You are still communicating with the OM you had an affair with. I needed to set this boundary for myself because I have a hard time helping with the laundry, dishes, kids etc. and this whole time she’s in the other room messaging with OM. I said it was extremely disrespectful to me and our marriage. Her response was “I’m treating this as a separation.” I told her I understand that but that doesn’t make it right especially when she’s still living in OUR house. Ended with her sobbing uncontrollably and saying she needed to collect her thoughts.
Woke up today pretty angry with me. Said she considered it a threat. I said it wasn’t a threat, that she had a choice and she needs to respect my feelings. She said “if I felt close to moving out before, last nights convo might have pushed her over the edge.”
At this point I needed to send a boundary for myself and I’ll live with the consequences. I have to. No going back. Maybe something like this is what’s needed to snap her out of her ambivalence to everything or maybe if she does move out she will then feel the real effects of that decision and give her the time and space she apparently needs. At this point I don’t care. I needed to do this for me. And I needed to show her I’m not some lap puppy waiting for her decision which I probably portrayed to her in the past. It felt like cake eating. She was getting all the benefits of staying together as a family especially when I’ve been helping out a ton more with everything around the house and kids but also continuing to talk to OM behind my back.
W,
I told you it sounded like an ultimatum or threat. Boundaries are tough for newbies because they are hard to enforce.
Ok she is now calling your bluff. What is your boundary? What are the consequences? I have to warn you that it better be a strong one.
Always come to the board first for advice. It is said often you can't make matters better right now but you can certainly make them worse.
W,
I told you it sounded like an ultimatum or threat. Boundaries are tough for newbies because they are hard to enforce.
Ok she is now calling your bluff. What is your boundary? What are the consequences? I have to warn you that it better be a strong one.
My boundary is not allowing her to be in our house claiming to be thinking through our situation and trying to make a rational decision when she still talking to OM. Not sure how you can make a decision rationally with that as a distraction. Am I wrong to set this type of a boundary?
What you're describing is the consequence of the boundary. If you define the boundary well and make that clear to her, then she will feel safe making a decision based on the consequences you propose. Something like that. There are a bunch of threads describing boundaries here on the board, and there's a book on it by Cloud and Townsend.
I will say, from what I've learned here, that if you can set that consequence and follow through on it, you'll probably benefit from it in the long run.
What you're saying, to yourself and others, is that you have enough self-respect to refuse to allow people to treat you like that, and to act in self-protective ways when they continue to act that way despite knowing that it hurts you. I mean, of course they know that it hurts you, but people tend to push the limits of what they can get away with.
In your case you might be doing yourself a huge favor by saying, finally (after the 3rd time iirc) that you're just done living with someone who can't reliably demonstrate commitment to you or your R.
I believe Sandi is right that this is a good idea. But it is a leap of faith.
The alternative, try what I did. Set a weak boundary, give her a half-hearted ultimatum, don't follow through, let her continue to run the show, continue to show her that despite her disrespectful attitude you will continue to comply with her demands...and so on. You end up in a quagmire that, from my vantage point, feels pretty impossible to escape.
Maybe something like this is what’s needed to snap her out of her ambivalence to everything or maybe if she does move out she will then feel the real effects of that decision and give her the time and space she apparently needs. At this point I don’t care. I needed to do this for me. And I needed to show her I’m not some lap puppy waiting for her decision which I probably portrayed to her in the past.
underlined: correct
bold: right motive
strikethrough: wrong motive
Never set a boundary you can't enforce. It makes you look weak.
In most places in the Western world (I haven't followed your thread closely enough to know where you are), you can't *make* a spouse move out of the marital home.
Now, if you say, "I won't live in the same house as you while you are talking to OM, and if you don't move out by X date, I will" then *that's* a boundary you can enforce. That's about you and is completely in your control.
Whether it's a smart move, is another thing, but it is at least a boundary.
What you've done is leave the enforcement of the boundary up to her. If she doesn't move out, what will you do next?
Good point. $&@/. Now what do I do?
Less is more. Do nothing. Wait to see what happens. Think about several possibilities, and have an idea of your head of what your response would be for each scenario.
Always keep in mind two things:
1. is this action based on love or a need?
2. does this action come from a place of strength or weakness?
W,
The first thing you have to do is stop shooting yourself in the foot.
Again are you willing to move out (which we don’t recommend) or file for divorce? Is she still sleeping in the marital bed?
You are shooting from the hip right now and making matters worse.
I am giving you my opinion. She is not working on the marriage right now. She is just feeding you a line of bs until she figures out what’s going on with this om.
Best thing you can do right now is work on yourself and take care of your kids. Eventually you will figure out if she is in or out. The more you pressure her or give out ultimatums you can’t backup. The quicker she will seek a divorce. You have absolutely no control over her at all. Wedding vows mean nothing to her right now.
W,
The first thing you have to do is stop shooting yourself in the foot.
Again are you willing to move out (which we don’t recommend) or file for divorce? Is she still sleeping in the marital bed?
You are shooting from the hip right now and making matters worse.
I am giving you my opinion. She is not working on the marriage right now. She is just feeding you a line of bs until she figures out what’s going on with this om.
Best thing you can do right now is work on yourself and take care of your kids. Eventually you will figure out if she is in or out. The more you pressure her or give out ultimatums you can’t backup. The quicker she will seek a divorce. You have absolutely no control over her at all. Wedding vows mean nothing to her right now.
No, I’m not willing to move out. If we D I get the house. I’m not going to file for D either because I am clearly not ready and I’m against it.
She is not in the marital bed. Hasn’t been for a month.
I’m going to move to the LRT. I have to I think.
W,
I just want to warn you that this is going to take a really long time to play out. Months if not years.
Come to the board before making any major decisions.
Thanks for all of the replies.
So, I have a couple questions on how to handle the next couple things that are more than likely to be upcoming. For those of you who have read up on my sitch will know that W and I work together. Have since we graduated. She was offered a job with great benefits in a larger town about an hour away. I’m almost positive she wants to take it. She’s mentioned that she thinks it will be “good for us/our family” regardless of what happens. Those of you who are self employed can understand how healthcare alone is a major expense this day and age.
So, I’m preparing for her to have that talk with me. We sort of talked about it over the weekend. I tried to validate with her and told her I want her to do what makes her happy and if taking this job makes her happy then she needs to. I then went in to say that if she’s only doing it for the money/benefits, she should think about it more before making a decision because I’ve learned over the past few weeks that money is not the most important thing in life. A HUGE 180 for me. I’ve always been concerned about finances in the past and in that same conversation she told me she always felt guilty when I would talk to her about our finance situation because she brought a lot of student loan debt into our marriage. Just another example of how her views of me communicating with her are just so skewed from what my intentions are. I’ve never brought those up to her as a way to make her feel guilty. It’s never even crossed my mind! It was because we are M and work together and is obviously things couples discuss.
The convo then went to how her taking this job will effect kids schedules etc. since she will have to leave an hour earlier for work and get home an hour later than normal and therefore I’d be responsible for getting kids to daycare and school and picking them up. Nothing was ever really decided about anything.
So, do I just validate again if she brings it up to me again? Say the same thing I said before, that I want her to do what makes her happy?
Another topic, our next joint session with W, W IC, my IC and me. It’s scheduled for next week. The first one didn’t really do much other than give her a platform to tell the ICs and me how horrible she’s felt for so long, etc. If you need to know more details looks back in this thread. I’m contemplating cancelling it because 1. I’m afraid she’s just going to continue with the same stuff and her IC will then side with her and basically say something like she doesn’t think this M is worth saving. That’s worse case scenario for me. I think if W IC says that then W will trust her opinion and decide the same. Of course that can always happen in their individual sessions too, so cancelling the joint one probably won’t deter that from happening if that’s how her IC feels. She could just tell her that at their next session. 2. I don’t really want to dwell on the past and hear more of the same stuff from her. Maybe that won’t take place since that was all heard in the first session but I just don’t know how I feel about doing another one. I think Me cancelling it might come as a shock to W since it was sort of my idea to do it in the first place, but knowing how Ws mindset is right now, she will have some negative feeling or assumption for why I would cancel it (“you just don’t care about how I feel” is a good example probably). She would probably find a way to spin a negative connotation on it I’m afraid. If I do end up doing this next joint session, I don’t think I’m going to say a word. At this point anytime I open my freaking mouth my W takes whatever I say and applies negatives to whatever it is that’s said. It’s a no win situation for me. I have my IC session tomorrow so I’m curious to hear what my IC’s feelings were on the joint session we had last week. I hope these therapists are smart enough to know the WW mindset and that they rewrite history to better serve themselves and their feelings of not wanting to work on the M.
I’ve implemented LRT as of this morning.
Only thing i can say is validate, and dont give unsolicited advice.
**Edit, i wouldnt suggest trying to defend yourself in MC.
Only thing i can say is validate, and dont give unsolicited advice.
**Edit, i wouldnt suggest trying to defend yourself in MC.
Oh I won’t be, trust me. I did very little of it in the first session but W picked up on the couple times I sort of tried to defend myself before I caught it and of course that’s all she focused on. I can say 250 things right and 1 wrong and guess what she dwells on?
I can say 250 things right and 1 wrong and guess what she dwells on?
The 1.
Go in to listen and understand.
It is her story. It does not mean it is true. Understand how she FEELS.
I have 3 females in my home. I can empathise with them. They want to be understood.
W,
Cancel the marriage counseling session and stay in IC. You're wasting your money while she is in an affair. MC is for when she is committed to the marriage.
New Thread:
Unsure what's next, what to do....Part II