At 11 pages so I thought a new thread was in order.
Link to the old thread...
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2809772&page=1Changed the title on this one. I am detaching more and doing better. I do not know if my detaching more has me thinking my W is doing the same, or if it is just the product of my detachment and that I am not hanging on everything she does any more. Thought about that this week and I think it is the later. W is going to do what she is going to do, what are the odds that she decided to change the exact moment that I am. Almost zero since she hasn't progressed with anything in so long.
I am keeping busy. Working out still very regularly. Concentrating on work more and that is really good. Also focusing on my kids as always and making sure they are on track with being back to school, having conversations and some fun as well.
I am finding that the longer this goes on and the detachment grows, I feel way more distant to my W. I am still pleasant and polite, but I am happier not being such a doormat like I was. I am GAL this weekend. Taking the kids out a few times for errands and for fun. If W goes, so be it.
I mentioned that our anniversary is this weekend. I am not dwelling on it, but it is on my mind. How could it not be? But, I am resigned to do nothing (unless approached about it), no sappy cards or gifts period. I will probably do the casual mention on the day just the passing "Happy Anniversary" to W that day just to recognize it.
Lots of moving parts. Retaining an A today so I can plan, strategize and draw up the paperwork. This will help me feel like I am doing something while I am detaching more and will be productive in opening my eyes to how things may look. I have always been prepared when a task is before me, so doing this is part of my process. I also believe that seeing and going through the items will be good for me as this part is just business (outside of time with the kids and parenting of course) and the nuts and bolts is more in my wheelhouse.
Comments, suggestions, 2x4's etc are always welcome.
In case you were wondering. I still love my W. I still dislike the situation I am in. I want to keep my family together. I am keeping the faith that as long as she is here and we are in the same home, there is a chance. I don't know if the odds increase the longer she is here or if I am just enabling her by providing everything (financial) that she needs while she is preparing in some way for her exit when our lease is up early next year.
No idea. I can't mind read. I can only observe and see. Some days she is pleasant, others cold and distant, others she is just sleeping and not around any of us. She is never affectionate, never flirty, nothing like that at all. We haven't touched in several weeks.
I know I am probably in my head on this, but I feel as I said above that she is becoming more distant as well and that we are just growing apart more and more each day. Is this a normal feeling? Is it the right way for this to go? I know she has to realize and see her fantasy world crumble prior to even the slightest inclination of her looking forward at us as an option.
In case you were wondering. I still love my W. I still dislike the situation I am in. I want to keep my family together. I am keeping the faith that as long as she is here and we are in the same home, there is a chance. I don't know if the odds increase the longer she is here or if I am just enabling her by providing everything (financial) that she needs while she is preparing in some way for her exit when our lease is up early next year.
We really don't have good data for this, but it seems like based on the stories we get here that situations rarely improve when the couple remains under the same roof. It's not unheard of, just very unusual. Either they end up splitting or they settle into an indefinite "in house separation" where they are living as roommates under the same roof (usually out of convenience and for financial reasons).
I know I am probably in my head on this, but I feel as I said above that she is becoming more distant as well and that we are just growing apart more and more each day. Is this a normal feeling? Is it the right way for this to go?
It is normal to detach with time, it sounds like that is what you're describing. She's already been detached for quite some time. You'll eventually get there too. After you're fully detached, then she may eventually learn to miss you and see that things weren't as bad as her fog made her think. But that's still months or even years down the road.
A quick weekend update.
On the MR side, a very memorable and sad weekend.
Our anniversary came and went. No word to each other at all.
W was actually more pleasant that day, asking little things that she normally wouldn't so that was nice I guess.
A few hikes over the long weekend and spent some time with my kids. I avoided any kind of serious discussions and only initiated conversations as they related to the kids or some household issue. No R or MR talks at all.
Secured my A and have a meeting with them next week. I am not excited about this, but I do need to be prepared, know where I stand and be ready.
So other than the Anniversary sadness (I would imagine she remembered it too, but didn't show much either). And no one saw me sad in the lease. It was a rather uneventful weekend. I got a lot done around the house, did some work and ran the kids where ever they needed as they had a fairly full weekend.
These last several days I know I am way more detached and the day-to-day drama that consumed me is no longer there. There are moments that it still overwhelms me, but these are fewer and farther between. I have taken my W off the pedestal and looking at her not as my W but as another human being. This is helping immensely as I can see how difficult her life may be if we D. No drive, No job, health issues galore, no "real" friends (I don't count internet friends), chronic issues that would keep her from eating out, dancing, staying up late let alone drinking, hiking, or just social interaction that scares her to death and exhausts her quickly. Should she change her mind and want to focus on our MR to get to a better 2.0, I would happily stand by her side. Knowing she wants nothing to do with me (other than pay the bills) is not acceptable.
JS I know the anniversary coming and going without fanfare makes you sad. However, this is a good thing. Whether she remembered or not, believe you me that she took notice. And the fact you didn't bring it up or act sad made a statement to her. And your improved detachment will have an impact too. You have been in limbo since March. That is 6 months that your D has been busted so far! That is great. In March if I had told you you'd be where you are in 6 months you would have taken it (I suspect). And while limbo is not fun, it is a stepping stone to R as long as you are willing to wait it out.
Notice: "Should she change her mind and want to focus on our MR to get to a better 2.0, I would happily stand by her side."
The question is how much patience do you have to let her get there? I know you followed this with an unacceptable statement, and that is always in your power to decide, but one thing you will always wonder is what would have happened if you could have held on for one more day (apologies to Wilson Philips).
Steve,
Yes. I would have told you 6 months ago that I saw zero way that we would still be in the same home and I would have taken this situation in a heartbeat. We are physically together, but definitely in different parts of our brain and different parts of our lives. Whether our paths have a chance to intersect again I do not know. I do know that my engaging the A just to dig in a little more and keep myself busy is good. It is/will help me detach more as well as outside of the time with my kids, everything else is just a financial arrangement and very impersonal (hence good for detachment). I am committed to more GAL activities. Luckily my company is active in our industry so there are a couple of times a month that I can get out at least for those. Along with the good efforts in working out (I feel and look better than I have in 20 years!) I just keep plugging along. I sometimes get stuck in a rut for a few, but those moments seem to be happening less and the time I am stuck is shorter prior to me getting back on track. Concentrating on my kids more and they are responding better. Had some great talks with my D this weekend while I was her taxi and I loved it!
New week.
journaling a bit.
I seem to be exhausted lately, all the time. I am still working out everyday, but the weight of this situation is having a profound effect on my overall attitude. As far as anyone else is concerned (work, kids, W, etc.) I am fine and life is going on and good. Outside of that, I find myself taking some time to try to catch up. I haven't slept well in years, so I don't feel it is that. I am good on 4-5 hours of sleep. It just feels like utter exhaustion and for no reason. The last week or so, I have taken some time to just rest my head at work (door closed obviously) and I've even pulled into a park a few times and just sat on a bench, leaned my head back and closed my eyes for about 30-45 minutes. Nothing seems to help with this. I do not feel sick in any way, still have an appetite, etc, but my body seems to be just telling me it cannot handle any more. Any more of what I do not know.
I do not have time for any other intrusions in my life right now. My focus is on my kids, work and of course db'ing and my W. DB'ing almost comes naturally now although I do reflect quite often, re-read links/posts/rules to make sure I am on the right path. I know what I need to improve on and do my best to not let anything intrude.
Mentioned earlier I got an A and meeting with them next week. I can only dream this is an effort in futility just to keep me busy. I fear it is not. My W has not mentioned anything, although yesterday she was a touch playful with her small talk. That was fun. I took it and moved on. She has done nothing towards anything (that I know of). Nothing towards a D and nothing towards us starting to R. NOTHING. I had to make a decision on the health insurance with little to no input from her. Our lease is up in a few months, I feel a lot of pressure on this front.
I know I am not supposed to initiate any R talks, but how do I approach this subject knowing it is an R subject when it comes up? I have to start planning, looking, saving, etc for our new place. Is it "our new place" or is it where we split and it becomes "her" place and "my" place? I just don't know. I believe that presently she would stay in this state of limbo indefinitely. She is not happy, she is depressed, she does not do anything, BUT I do think she knows that if/when we are done that her world will drastically change. Is she working on her plan A? If she is, she is very devious and secretive about it and she isn't doing anywhere but from her phone/tablet as she rarely goes anywhere.
How am I supposed to plan out my life and the kid's lives and make these decisions? Do I include her in the discussion? Or do I just plan accordingly and if she tags along then so be it? I don't like the position we are in, it is so much better than when I started DB'ing. We aren't fighting and having out every other day or even once a week. We haven't fought in over a month and it is much more calm around the household.
I'm sure they may surface at times, but gone are the days of my minute to minute obsessing about what she is thinking/doing/going to do, etc. I just do my thing daily. I need to get more GAL activities and luckily this month there are a few work related events that will "force" me out.
My kids are awesome and they do not deserve to be in this limbo situation either. I see if affecting them. Especially my D. I think that this is going to have a very long term affect on her views on relationships and marriage. How could it not? She has heard (through our various arguments) that I would do anything to keep our family together. She has also heard that her Mom says it is over and wants nothing to do with me. I go back to the part of how my D looks up to her Mom and now sees her Mom living with a man she says she wants nothing to do with, sleeping in the same bed with him, and sometimes doing fun things with him. How can my D not be affected by this? So its ok to sleep with someone you want absolutely nothing to do with? What does my D really thing? Does she think that I am a bad person? Does she think I am weak since I am sleeping in the same bed of someone who admittedly doesn't want to be with me? My S sees most of the same, but he is way younger and doesn't get it. He has seen some changes and he is intelligent so I imagine he feels the tension and knows something is askew.
What do I do?
Not sleeping well for years will eventually catch up to you. 4-5 hours/night is not enough, especially when dealing with stress. Have you spoken to a dr about your sleep?
yes. I have taken ambien sparingly but my body will still wake up after the 4-5 hours. I don't believe this is stress related as even when I have been doing well, my body has never required much more sleep. Sometimes I can sleep for 6-7 hours and its good but mostly it is the 4-5. If I wake up and my mind clicks, I might as well get up. I've been this way probably since I can remember, at least since High School so way over 30 years.
I seem to be exhausted lately, all the time. I am still working out everyday, but the weight of this situation is having a profound effect on my overall attitude.
Depression can be disguised as fatigue. Not sleeping well or enough hours is another sign of depression. Some people have good results when they take St. John's Wort for depression, and Melatonin for sleep aid. Both are OTC. You have to figure out the dosage that works best for you when taking Melatonin. Too little, and you'll wake up too soon. I never felt "hung over" when taking Melatonin, like is common with prescription sleeping pills. Depression never caused me to lose my appetite.
but my body seems to be just telling me it cannot handle any more. Any more of what I do not know.
I have to challenge you a little bit here. When you look at the stitch you've been in for quite some time, plus the additional stress you cause for yourself (over-thinking everything), is it any wonder you are exhausted and your body is talking to you? You may not feel sick, but if you continue being your own worst enemy......you might get there. I encourage you to get a checkup and tell the doctor how you feel exhausted and aren't sleeping enough at night.
She has done nothing towards anything (that I know of). Nothing towards a D and nothing towards us starting to R. NOTHING. I had to make a decision on the health insurance with little to no input from her. Our lease is up in a few months, I feel a lot of pressure on this front.
Well, I'm repeating myself, but I don't think she's going to do a darn thing as long as things continue going this way. MWD says whenever the spouse gets too comfortable with the limbo stage......do something to change things. I think you need to do something that gets her out of her comfy position. This is just one of the reasons you need to leave the house at least one evening out of the weekday.....alone. No kids, no wife, and no details about where, what, and with whom. All you say is that you are going out, and don't wait up. You don't tell when you'll be home, or anything else. Can you just do that one thing? I'm sorry, but I think you are using your W and kids as your cover for not GAL. Your kids are old enough that it won't damage them for dad to go out for two or three hours on a weeknight.
They are not the problem to you going out. YOU are the problem! Stir things up by becoming a bit unpredictable.
You need to stir things up for her. She has it too easy, and she's too comfortable in this limbo. Stop waiting for her to make the decisions. Do what you want to do.
That is moving forward with or without her......by doing what you want to do.
I know I am not supposed to initiate any R talks, but how do I approach this subject knowing it is an R subject when it comes up?
Treat it like business. Don't get off into all the personal ying-yang about the MR.
YOU: "I have a decision to make about the lease coming up soon. I invite your input. If you choose not to share your thoughts about it, then I will accept that as your answer to mean you don't intend to live with us.....and I will act accordingly".
I have to start planning, looking, saving, etc for our new place. Is it "our new place" or is it where we split and it becomes "her" place and "my" place?
Don't say anything until you talk to the attorney. Once you speak with your attorney, you will know more about what to expect with the finances. Will you have to pay spousal support? Will you have to pay child support if the kids live with you 50% of the time, etc.
YOU: "If you want to live with me, then you need to tell me. Otherwise, I will move on without you, and you will be responsible for your own housing and expenses".
If she won't cooperate, then act as if she will not be living with you. If the attorney says you'll have to pay $$ amount of support, then plan with that in mind. You've constantly tossed this around in your head since the beginning, and it has not served you one bit. What's the point? Find out what the state dictates, and act accordingly. Just b/c she wants to play games doesn't mean you have to stay stuck. If you plan to get a new place, and she happens to change her mind and want to stay with you after not renewing the lease.......how would that affect things?
I believe that presently she would stay in this state of limbo indefinitely.
Absolutely!
She is not happy, she is depressed, she does not do anything, BUT I do think she knows that if/when we are done that her world will drastically change. Is she working on her plan A? If she is, she is very devious and secretive about it and she isn't doing anywhere but from her phone/tablet as she rarely goes anywhere.
How am I supposed to plan out my life and the kid's lives and make these decisions? Do I include her in the discussion? Or do I just plan accordingly and if she tags along then so be it?
Yes, absolutely!
Unless.......you decide you don't want her. That's the key that I have wanted you to see to this entire situation. You talk like a victim.....but you are
not a victim. Only
you get to decide if you'll be a victim or not. B/c whether or not you see it, you
do have a voice in your future plans.
Let's say she tags along. Haven't you been saying all this time that you wanted your family to stay together? Would getting a different house mean that the relationship with her would change? I doubt it. So, would you be willing to continue living in the save stitch but in a different house? That's your choice. If you don't want her tagging along, then
tell her. First, find out how much percentage you will be mandated to pay her for support. Secondly, decide which way works best for you. I'm not talking about what you wish would come true. I'm talking dealing with reality. Based on nothing but the facts as there are right now, what will work better for you?
I need to get more GAL activities and luckily this month there are a few work related events that will "force" me out.
Those don't count.
"How can my D not be affected by this?" She
willbe affected.
"So its ok to sleep with someone you want absolutely nothing to do with?" Since you are the one sleeping with her, then you have to make that decision. Do you see the marital bedroom as the symbolic core of unity & love in the home? Do the kids?
"What does my D really thing?" I'll check in my crystal ball. (OK, so it's not funny. The only b@lls I believe work, aren't made of crystal, anyway.)
"Does she think that I am a bad person?" Bad? I doubt it, but compared to whom or what? Most 14 year old girls think their dad is weird, but not bad.
"Does she think I am weak since I am sleeping in the same bed of someone who admittedly doesn't want to be with me?" Do you think she'd see you in a better light if you asked your W to sleep somewhere else........considering your W's issues with pain, etc.? What would D14 or S8 think if they saw dad sleeping on the couch?
"My S sees most of the same, but he is way younger and doesn't get it." Oh, don't kid yourself. (No pun intended.)
"He has seen some changes and he is intelligent so I imagine he feels the tension and knows something is askew." Well, there you go. Would it make things better or worse?
She has done nothing towards anything (that I know of). Nothing towards a D and nothing towards us starting to R. NOTHING. I had to make a decision on the health insurance with little to no input from her. Our lease is up in a few months, I feel a lot of pressure on this front.
I agree with Sandi, based on everything you've told us you're not imagining things, she really isn't doing anything. She is a bit unusual in this regard as usually WAS's are actively pursuing moving out and/ or other relationships whether with friends or romances. But your W is perfectly content to do NOTHING. So it's really all in your court.
I know I am not supposed to initiate any R talks, but how do I approach this subject knowing it is an R subject when it comes up? I have to start planning, looking, saving, etc for our new place. Is it "our new place" or is it where we split and it becomes "her" place and "my" place? I just don't know.
I also agree with Sandi on this point, it's not an R talk if you approach it like a business decision. The one thing I don't -completely- agree on though is giving her the option to move with you. I would be inclined to tell her that you assume she'll be making her own arrangements and to let you know if she needs anything from you. I would personally not under any circumstances let her move with me unless she was committing to working on the M, which it sure sounds like she's not even remotely ready to do. I think the overall tone of your posts is that you are just worn out on this whole deal, and while separation hurts at first, in the long run it will help you recover much faster and better than staying stuck with her under the same roof. In-house separations hardly ever lead to recon. They almost always lead to a sexless, loveless marriage.
I believe that presently she would stay in this state of limbo indefinitely.
Yes. Frankly she doesn't care enough to lift a finger. But you, this is tearing you apart. YOU need to do something.
I think that this is going to have a very long term affect on her views on relationships and marriage. How could it not?
Hard to say, but considering half of marriages end in divorce it's not like this hasn't happened to a zillion other kids.
Does she think that I am a bad person? Does she think I am weak since I am sleeping in the same bed of someone who admittedly doesn't want to be with me?
My younger D was mid-teens when it all went down, and at one point she told me she respected that I worked as hard to save the M as I did. She said sometimes things just don't work out and it's no one's fault. She said us being married 20 years was something to be proud of, that most M's don't make it that long. Kids are smarter and more aware than we give them credit for. Your D doesn't see you as helpless and pathetic, she sees you standing for your M not just for you but for her. THAT is what she will remember no matter what happens.
I appreciate the input everyone.
Sandi, yes, I realize I am my own worst enemy and I am doing everything I can to detach and refocus.
I also agree that my "crutch" to not getting out is my family. No longer an excuse. Hitting a game up this weekend.
Just waiting on the appointment with my A to start going over things and seeing what my true rights are. I pretty much know but there is always 2 sides and I will do my best to structure it as fairly as I can. Some things will be negotiable for me, others will not be. But this is more about structure and black and white so I am much better focusing on this part.
Nothing new. We are just ambling through, casually saying hi, bye, short convo's on errands or the kids, It has set into a comfortable "rut". I think it is comfortable for her as again, she doesn't do anything. She will do a load of laundry, clean the kitchen, work at preparing a meal, maybe work out on our no impact eliptical for an hour or so, take a nap and get the kids. After that it is not much but making sure the kids get started on their homework, if not a nap, then dinner and tv or book time. She was humorously sarcastic to me the other evening. I took it as a good sign. If she can joke with me, I thought it was good. I am not examining everything she says or does, but this particular exchange just stood out since it was so different. I didn't react, just let it go and continued on.
I have not told her i retained an A. I will look at the new GAL possibilities while I am working through the legal details. Example, i scooted out before anyone was up this morning and met a colleague for breakfast. i planned it last evening and just got up, got out and didn't get home until a little while ago.
i am hoping that my body is just recoiling from what it has gone through and since I am relaxing a little bit, the exhaustion came on. I'm going to go with that. Slept well last night and feel good today even though I had a long day. Tomorrow should be jam packed as well. Then the weekend. Good weather. A couple of hikes, some chores around the house, a game and some fun!
At least I was mostly prepared.
Knowing we were going to have to have the housing discussion as I mentioned earlier it happened today.
My W actually brought it up. Said she was looking and probably found a mediator. Nothing scheduled. She also mentioned the living situation. I acknowledged that I was thinking of that as well. I did ask whether I was looking for a place for just me and the kids or all of us. Her response was that she was looking for this time to be when we parted ways. She even mentioned that she may be gone prior to the holidays as she doesn't want that kind of depression/pressure/issues to happen during the holidays.
She mentioned trying to move school districts as D is unhappy with hers. Problem is S is VERY happy with his. My office is close to their schools and I could easily find a place in this area to make logistics for them and me easier.
Got the "I have been their primary caregiver" speech of which I stated we have both sacrificed and invested in our children's lives in different roles.
I did preface the discussion that I didn't want to get into an argument or any type of marital discussion.
This is what she says she is thinking.
Thoughts....
My thoughts? Unless you push the issue (and you can if you really want to) she will be living with you well past the holidays. Every deadline this woman has ever set has come and gone without any hoopla or fanfare, and without her following through on any of her "pronouncements". At this point when she mentions mediator and moving out, etc, it sounds like sounding brass and tinkling cymbals to me. As it should to you.
DO you believe she will follow through on any of this?
I honestly don't know.
I, of course, based on past history and Sandi's rules I can't believe anything she says.
It just baffles me that she is in such a state of nothingness.
She did bait me a few times and I didn't take it (i.e. when she was mentioning her being the primary caregiver she said that my D doesn't even remember me much since I was gone traveling a lot. I had one company that I traveled for that I owned for 4 years. My travel was out Monday and in Thursday about every 3 weeks or so. The other times I was home working out of the house. I took my D to preschool every morning and picked her up most afternoons. We rocked out to hair metal and had a ball. If you add that all up, thats about 260ish days I missed while she was 18 mos to 6 years old. During that time we had great vacations, holidays, etc.
She did say she was going to email me the mediator so I could look up their reviews, information and costs. I still haven't received that yet.
I did not tell her I retained an A and don't think I will just yet. That is for my own piece of mind. She did try to drag it into a MR/Settlement talk and I just mentioned a few things and told her that most of it, to me, was fairly black and white. There is very little gray in it to me. What's right is right. She did profoundly state that she does not want to go the lawyer route (apparently as she was doing her research and her previous experience, she understands the cost and the dragging time involved. Also, I don't know if she is going to get the help she had before from her parents as they may have lost interest due to the length she has dragged this on and the waste of money on the previous filing and withdrawal. I don't know, but I just get a feeling on this. If she had the funding, she would be full speed).
So Steve, I am still in limbo. I have said this many, many times on Friday and even though I hate limbo, I am thankful for another week having my family in the same home. Reading through your and other situations, I know it gets darkest before the dawn and you never know what may strike a cord in my W that may change her course, if there is a cord that can do that. I am not going to push for D, but I am going to get the information and see what it would look like based on my A's suggestions and my input. I will begin to plan to live within what the A is thinking regarding child support, etc. built into my budget. I will also start looking for ideas on new places to live. It will definitely be smaller than what we live in now, but it will be big enough that if my W decides to come along and work on our MR and we work through our conditions on working on that, then that would acceptable.
Bunches of stuff this weekend. Weather is beautiful so looking forward to relaxing and hopefully not thinking about this for a couple of days.
Thanks ALL of you for your continued support. I know sometimes I sound like a broken record since my head is a little thick and it takes me a while to soak things that I should have gotten weeks or months ago. I value this board and all it brings.
I would love to say this is getting easier.
In a way it is. I go through each day a little less stressed than the one's prior. Some are better than others, but I can see myself getting better and better. Good weekend. Took the kids to dinner yesterday. I went to a game on Saturday and had a good time. Socialized with some people and as I suspected I am still a likable individual.
I got a lot done this weekend around the house. I won't lie my W mentioning the moving thing and that her intention was still to part was on my mind but did not bother me as much as I thought. My mindset is that there is a big chance it is going to happen so my preparations for this seem to be working. Of course I will be sad when/if it happens. I believe she will be as well. Who wouldn't? There were no arguments and no real discussions as W had some health issues that kind of knocked her out for one of the days. The other I was busy.
I did mention one thing to her yesterday. She has been really struggling with her health these last several weeks. I don't mention it often as she has requested me not to comment on that. She was out of it again yesterday and after she awoke again and got settled in, I just looked her square in the eyes and said:
"I know you asked me not to mention it, but it appears to me there is something going on with your health that you may want to look into. I wouldn't mention it, but I am concerned". Her response was "I just have to get over whatever virus or whatever is going on, I'll be alright". I've known this woman for over 20 years and have been with her through all of her health issues. Her skin is very pale. It also appears to be much dryer than usual. She has zero energy, irritable and just not happy. I don't know if this is a combination of depression (due to our sitch), the usual depression she deals with, any of the multitude of health issues she deals with daily, or a new one arising. I don't know.
Just to clarify. She is not an invalid. She "appears" to everyone else to be a normal, beautiful woman, wife and mother. Very few people know what she deals with. I do. i will encourage her to look into this, but it is her choice on how to deal with her health.
Looking forward to the work week and digging in and making some things happen.
I mentioned this earlier, but it just seems like we are detaching from each other much, much more. I know that DB'ing is for myself regardless of what happens. I am just curious as to if this is normal? Must it happen this way (at least most of the time) for there even be a chance to R? I think she is looking at it almost the same way I am. If there wasn't the lease ending issue, I think this would have the chance to go on for as long as she would like it for and as long as I would allow it to go on. But with this there, there seems to be a clear "deadline" that we both are feeling. My thoughts go back to what AS said last week that most in house separations are difficult since each person doesn't get the chance to both miss their spouse and experience life without them. I know this is on my mind as I had 2 really bad dreams last evening. Both were just interactions with my W. Just conversations. But both hurt very much. I just did some meditation in bed and coaxed myself back to sleep each time. I know these are normal. It is just hard when you would love for the person you love and is supposed to be your partner in life, just to be there for you to hold or for them just to hold you.
Input is greatly requested...
Just to clarify. She is not an invalid. She "appears" to everyone else to be a normal, beautiful woman, wife and mother. Very few people know what she deals with. I do. i will encourage her to look into this, but it is her choice on how to deal with her health.
I am not in any way trying to diagnose her, but I had a coworker in his 60's whose W's health was the same as what you describe about your W. She seemed vibrant and healthy to most people (she was in fact a model), but she was struggling with all kind of health issues at home. The docs couldn't figure it out, she had no diagnosis. They tried all kinds of different medications and she just continued to get worse. It's really a sad situation because they both loved to travel and dreamed of retiring and traveling the world. By the time they both retired she could barely leave the house, and traveling was completely out of the question. Now she has dementia on top of everything else. It's just terrible. Anyway I wish you the best, you've got a very difficult situation because you're not just struggling with marital problems but your W's health problems as well. It's good that you mentioned it to her but unfortunately that's about all you can do. It's up to her to seek help (or not).
AS, Thanks as always for the input.
Had to pop in and grab something at home. W was heading down to get on the eliptical and was in her workout clothes. I mentioned that I'm glad she felt better to do that.
She shrugged it all off as her just being "tired" and that she is fine. I view that as being in total denial, but that's just me.
And yes, doctors have diagnosed, treated, mis-diagnosed, used a huge variety of medications and treatments. End result: Chronic pain and altered personality due to the medications. I am not blaming that at all on our situation, but it does play a part as it has totally changed our lives.
No idea what to do, so I am just going to continue to DB, GAL and do my thing.
Really, what else can I do?
And yes, doctors have diagnosed, treated, mis-diagnosed, used a huge variety of medications and treatments. End result: Chronic pain and altered personality due to the medications. I am not blaming that at all on our situation, but it does play a part as it has totally changed our lives.
Well we do say not to look for answers because there usually aren't any, but having read along in your sitch I honestly feel her med's have played a large part in why you are here. That makes things particularly difficult for you because she's still on the med's, and if it really is because of the med's then there's not any changed behavior on your part that's really going to make much of a difference. Not only is she rejecting you but she's not seeking out love elsewhere, which sounds like she has just lost the ability to love (which the medical community is just starting to learn is a side effect of many medications intended to treat mood/ personality disorders).
No idea what to do, so I am just going to continue to DB, GAL and do my thing.
Really, what else can I do?
That's really the best you can do. I admire you for sticking with it, you have a lot of inner strength.
I appreciate the words AS.
I believe many others would disagree with your assessment.
We will see this week if I get the mediator's name and number and she pushes forward.
There is no mind reading any longer. She is angry today. At what I don't know.
Us getting a D, her getting her own place, being a single parent half the time, losing time with our kids the other half, having to get a full time job and doing it all by herself is, IMHO, next to impossible.
If she cashes out all of her assets, I think she would have about a year before it crashes in. This doesn't count any type of income she might get, but I don't think that would be sustainable. Her options seem to be:
1) Refocus on our MR, choose to be happy and keep our family together
2) Try it on her own. This will mean a HUGE drop in standard of living and a giant increase in responsibility. She is a strong willed person but with the health issues on top, I don't see this being successful.
3) She will have to jump into a new relationship rather quickly just to keep a decent standard of living and the ability to not work and just have some help from a companion and of course the finances. Looking at this option, I know she is a beautiful woman, she is engaging and fun (when she can be). Knowing the health situation along with the emotional/mental issues she has to deal with, wouldn't this just seem like "trading spouses" for lack of a better term? I don't see this one working either as truly what does she have to bring to a new relationship? Sex? Sure, for the first few weeks or months, then a health issue comes around or the chronic pain heats up and then its done. Money? She has very little. Fun? She could go out a few times, but she can't drink much with her medications, she can't drive at night, she can't stay out late, and even on lunch dates she gets tired very quickly. Even getting ready for a date (and this was a few years ago so way prior to BD) sometimes she just getting ready would wear her out and she couldn't go due to exhaustion. Companionship? If you don't have time, energy or desire to put into a relationship, how long would it really last? I haven't been single in a LONG time, but I think that any partner would want someone who would want to participate in their life to make something work and have a future.
Tough to concentrate today for some reason. Reflecting on the dinner I had with the kids last night. it was good, effortless and fun. Happy for that. Sad my W didn't go. I don't know if she didn't go because of health or MR issues. I just asked if she wanted to go and she declined.
I am calm, but I am in true need of advice.
I did not snoop, but a friend that knows us saw my W's ad up on a dating site.
As predicted it is in the W4W section.
How do i handle this?
I am actually calmer than I thought I would be.
I did check on the other side W4M and didn't see her there.
Can i get a little feedback on what I am looking at here?
Just looking for some input here.
How do I handle this thing?
I don't know if I should just ignore it, address it, did it happen months ago and she is not active now, was this recent, etc.
Cadet,
Could you please delete my last 2 posts and this one as well.
Thank you.
Do you not want comments any more JS? I'd be glad to address.
I do.
I know its weird. But this is really hitting me hard, even though I expected this long ago.
I just thought about it overnight and I would love comments, but it just seems to be such a very personal issue. A totally different dynamic playing into this. Was I a fool for our entire marriage? I don't think so. Was she hiding some hidden things? No. We talked about it very early on into dating and she always said she was attracted to women, just never wanted a relationship with them since they are all crazy. Seems things have changed over her adult life. I also think that this is just one way for her to rebel against everything. Society, her parents, me, everything. Thinking again overnight and this morning, it appears this went up shortly after she took her ring off. I don't know if that what she was referencing when she mentioned "she gets asked out all the time" or not. And this is only ONE site. There are countless others and who knows how many she is on. Thing is, it is still the same thing. She doesn't go out, she doesn't get dressed up for anything. She isn't doing anything.
She was very angry yesterday. I don't know why. Just let her have her space and moved on.
Why does the fact that is in the WSW section bother you? It seems from your messages that it bothers you more than if it had been in the WSM section. If she was always open about a certain sexual fluidity, then what does it matter? I think many women are more fluid in their sexuality than men.
That said, I get the pain of finding out that the W is looking around for other people - even if we suspected it before, when it is thrust into our faces for the first time, it stings. My W told me in person (4 months post BD) that she was casually dating, and it was a huge blow.
Is there a boundary that you have related to this? If she is actively looking around or dating do you want to continue with your current living situation? You can't control her desire to date, or even whether or not she dates, but you can protect yourself.
Okay, so first. I understand how you feel. I remember finding my W's online dating profile last January. It was especially hard because it was just 5 days after she started showing signs of wanting to stay in the MR.
I wouldn't fixate on the W4W/W4M thing. I will speak to the potential that she might be gay or bi in a minute, but reaching out to others, male or female, is still problematic. I know when my W's picture came up on the dating site, with a full dating profile, my heart dropped into my stomach. Up to then I didn't realize the depth of her waywardness, and only thought that my being so absent for so long had just opened up for someone else to swoop in. That she was actually actively out looking was a huge wake-up call. I found this this board about 3 weeks later and the term wayward stuck out to me like a sore thumb.
Is this is a big deal? I would say it is. Does it change what you should or shouldn't be doing? No.
I will say that if she is having bi and/or gay feelings then this could potentially speak to why she has been so depressed and withdrawn. Most WAWs feel some level of stuck. I would imagine that when it comes to sexuality, no matter what is causing her to question it, her feeling of being stuck must be off the chart. With being married, having kids, and feeling like you should be with the same sex, that has to be a struggle. I would encourage you, no matter what you decide, to give her the time and space to figure her stuff out.
Whether or not you confront is up to you. I confronted because this profile was very public, and our D (at the time 14) had no idea that there were any problems between us. When I confronted I was very firm, not sad or mopey, and stated that I felt it was disrespectful for her to have a public, full view, picture and all, dating profile. And that if she cared one iota about how our D found out about our potential split-up, she would take it down.
JS, hang in there buddy. I know this is a blow on multiple fronts, but it really doesn't change what you should be doing. Unless this is the final straw that makes you want to pull the plug. Otherwise keep on DBing. But think about what I said about how I confronted my W about her dating profile....especially with kids. Any of their friends' could end up seeing that profile, and then showing it to them.
Davide, I hear you. The reason it means a little more is that due to her issues with men prior to me. Father abuse, rape, etc. she had/has a very bad view of men in her life. Until me. I USED to be the exception. It is just another cog in the wheel that may mean a longer road. And to be honest, I think if it were in the looking for men section it would have bothered me more.
Steve, she is definitely bi. So yes. Tons of issues that she will/would have to deal with and add in the dynamic of eventually our children having this to deal with as well. It is totally fine, but with everything else going on, just another big issue for them to attempt to understand.
I did just get an email from an apartment complex that my W was looking into. I have no idea why they had my number or called, but they wanted to know if I would be on the lease and how long our current lease was. I acted "in the loop" and just got the information and told them I would get back to them. It sounded like if I wasn't signing, she wouldn't get it. They mentioned they had talked to her yesterday afternoon so that may have been why she was so angry. The rent would have been almost what we pay now so I have no idea how she thinks she will accomplish this with no job, no income, etc. Maybe part of the future plans was dealt a blow yesterday.
As far as the ad. I am hurt by it clearly. One of our boundaries was that neither of us would date other people while we were in the home together with our children. I don't know if she has actually went on a date yet, but I guess she is getting ready. To confront or not that is the question.
just curious how others have dealt with this:
W is so distant and far away (emotionally, physically, etc.). I am continuing to DB, but it just seems that this state is mind numbing and gets us further away from anything. Is that how this is supposed to feel?
I would still like input on the dating site ad. I have no idea if she has pursued it yet or if this was a one time thing she posted and then never followed up on. Of course, why would she have it up if she wasn't looking? I'm not a fool.
Just looking for input on these items.
Everything blew up today.
Caught W on her dating app while on her phone. I couldn't' hold my tongue any longer.
I told her I wouldn't be disrespected like that. This turned into a 2 hour discussion.
We talked about almost everything, including the dating apps.
She swears she just "signed up" to check them out but wasn't seeing anyone. Almost believable except why are you still on them? Says she isn't interested nor looking for anyone. Asked to see her phone. She denied "on principal". HA
She said she was looking for places and would be out soon. I asked when, she said she didn't know. I asked what the range of rent was she was looking at and she said it was none of my business. I let that one go, but we went into talking and we both shared how we had responsibility for the fall of our marriage.
I emphasized how I don't want a D, My desire is to keep our family together and for us to grow old together. The last thing I asked is if she would do one last thing to just see if there was a possibility. I didn't use MWD by name, but mentioned the 2 day intensives she offers and how it is a great coaching plan to get us to look at our futures (and past) instead of the counseling methods. I did tell her what I learned which was that it was a solid 2 days and one person with us both. Some pre-work and then the sessions that happen over 2 days. She changed from an absolute "no" to an" I don't think so. I just don't see it".
I am just looking for some feedback on anyone who has been here before. All the emotions are back and this truly stinks.
Did I just blow all of my previous DB efforts?
Was there ever a chance to begin with?
Do we truly have to D for her to see and experience life without me (good or bad)?
We discussed a ton and I validated often. She said a few things like "I wish you were like this awhile ago". "I've noticed the changes and I like them, they are like the old you, I just don't trust them". We didn't bash each other too much and I did my best and thought before I spoke.
It's going to be a hard next few days as she says she is getting the mediator and moving it forward.
Best thing about it is that it was a calm, rational discussion and we didn't blow up at each other. I did cry once and saw her eyes tear up as well. We both talked how it was hard to trust either one since we don't talk anymore (I didn't throw in, "if you weren't on a dating site, that would be a great show of trust".
After reading all of the situations on here, the best I can determine is that my W is in an affair. If you are on dating sites actively, there is only one reason to do that. You don't "prospect" for what might be in 6 months. Same for getting her own place. Only reason you need that is to sleep with someone else. Period.
I am still baffled how she could be having an affair as she doesn't leave or isn't healthy enough to have any type of relationship. BUT, I cannot deny the facts are now there. She can deny all she wants.
I wanted to hold my tongue, but when I saw her on the dating site, I just couldn't and felt for myself I needed to address it.
Please help. I am a mess, I fear I royally screwed up and I just don't know what to do.
JS,
Nah you didn't blow it but you are definitely prolonging it. You are try to using logic and reason with an emotional human being.
You are suffering right now because you can't accept the reality that she wants a D right now. You have to let her go if you want a chance to get her back. With her health problems you are more than likely to get another chance.
Unfortunately, until you accept that you will suffer immense pain.
JustSad,
I think it is a perfectly fine boundary to have that your W shouldn't be on a dating site while still living with you. It is reasonable to tell her that she needs to leave if she wants to date. Nothing wrong with that side of things.
It looks like you have been post BD for about a year now. Do you really think that she is going to move out now? Given her issues and the length of time she has continued to live in the house do you think it is possible she just tries to keep cake-eating? Also, if she is moving out you do need to discuss the financial arrangements since I assume you will have to pay some money in support. Maybe that is for Ls or mediators but that conversation does need to happen.
LH is completely right. You need to let her go and actually detach from her. Right now, she knows that you will put up with almost anything to save the marriage. It seems desperate. That isn't attractive at all.
I think that you will find that detachment and focusing on yourself is a lot easier if you aren't sharing a house. Of course there are downsides to it, and it can be brutally lonely, but I have found that actual distance and time without my W has really helped me let go emotionally.
Hang in there.
Thanks guys.
It was a sleepless night to say the least.
No other conversations with W.
I also agree about the physical separation part. I know it would be terribly lonely and open up the possibility of a PA that much more possible. This in home thing just seems to keep me attached too much and she doesn't get to experience any type of life without me.
Do I think she is going to do it? I believe she will. I don't know exactly when, but we only have a few months left on our lease here so we have to move by then anyway. Doing it this way helps her by being able to say that she left me. I am going back and continuing to DB. All I can do. Oh, and prepare for the worst.
JS, I've written extensively about the LBS that is physically separated vs the LBS that is still living with the WAS.
Both think the other has it better. And in reality both have advantages and disadvantages.
However, I would argue that if you are having trouble detaching, then you will have that problem whether you live with her or not. The imagination is a powerful thing. Look at OrangeK's threads. He was forced by a PPO to have no contact (except for directly related to child care), yet he still struggles mightily with detachment.
You need to throw yourself into DBing. GAL like a madman! Those that struggle the most with detachment usually aren't doing enough GAL. Staying busy is the key.
JS - The quicker you let her go to experience other men and all the life has to offer the sooner she may return. You have to be strong enough let her go and let her run into the arms of her new life and her new partners so she gets the full experience of what it is like. The longer you hold on and delay the process the longer your pain will continue.
Just getting thoughts out of my head this morning.
I was extremely tired yesterday, but did my workouts and got my stuff done. I was pleasant, upbeat and good around everyone so yea me! Weird part of yesterday is W was more interactive than usual. She approached a few times for some conversations. Asked for my help on a couple of things. And, there was a point where she was even kind. Very weird. Even at the end of the evening she began sharing what she had done. She got a text on her phone, and immediately told me what it was regarding.
I am not mind reading at all on how it went, just sharing on how it was a little weird.
Sharing again and looking for feedback as always.
Had a really good day yesterday. Our S's bday is today.
W and I actually went out together for a couple of hours to pick up all of his presents, cake stuff, etc. It was the first time in several months that we have been out alone together. We walked together, chatted together, picked out things together, I listened to her comments and conversation, validated and really listened.
We got back home, put the stuff away, and I ended it quickly and went on my way. Got back later and W was still talking with me. Just regular conversations about stuff. I again listened, validated, commented, looked her in the eye and made sure to end them on a good note. She even shared some personal information that in the past few months she never would have.
Dinner out with everyone tonight for our boy's bday.
I am thankful that I have had these few moments yesterday and today to let my W see that our family (and just us) can interact and have a little fun together. I made it a point in my mind not to push, not to mind read, not to believe anything she says and only half of what she does and to be sure to be in the moment, validate, listen and most of all to enjoy the time.
Comments always appreciated.
WELL DONE! This is what it is all about. You had an opportunity, and took advantage of it and owned it.
Keep up the good work.
Met with an A yesterday. Pretty much what I thought it would be.
If W and I can agree it will be easier. If we don't, it will get ugly.
Haven't told W I met with an A. It has definitely been an interesting week. W and I have had some decent conversations of which I have db'd the heck out of and I feel more detached than ever. In fact, W did something yesterday that was totally meant to dig at me and try to get me to blow up. I did comment that she knew exactly what she was doing, but didn't take the bait. Let it go and even validated (a little later after I walked away) her position and why she did it. She knows what she did and it is up to her to take care of it. This action of hers will come back to bite her a little today. I am doing absolutely nothing but going on with my normal day, but I am able to see ahead and what will happen. It is just one of those minor 2x4's that she needs to give her a dose of life without me. I will not revel, but I will not rescue either.
Looking forward to the weekend. Sports games with the kids and a bday party for my S with his friends. D has a bunch of social stuff going on as well so the taxi is warmed up and waiting. With all that, I don't know other than my hikes if there will be much time for any individual GAL's for me, but it should be a fun weekend!
Giving my W her space. Letting her do her thing, not being there for her every minute, and letting her make her own (and be responsible for ) her own actions.
It's Friday. As always, I am thankful that my family is still in the same house. Also thankful that for some reason my W and I are communicating and speaking more. No mind reading, No extra hope, just observing.
Caught W on her dating app while on her phone. I couldn't' hold my tongue any longer.
I told her I wouldn't be disrespected like that.
What are the consequences if she doesn't stay off the dating sites? Here's the thing that a lot of LBH's don't seem to get. The whole business of waywardness is due to disrespect. So, I think you'd better have a plan to follow through with some type of consequences if she disrespects you and uses the dating app again.
This turned into a 2 hour discussion.
We talked about almost everything, including the dating apps.
Next time, don't talk. Just act. Letting it turn into a 2 hour discussion is where H's mess up. The whole boundary setting loses power by having these talks. You get off the subject of the boundary and talk about everything else. It gets you nowhere. You told her you would not be disrespected like that, so that's all that needed to be said. Now.....be prepared to back it up.
I emphasized how I don't want a D, My desire is to keep our family together and for us to grow old together.
Don't you think she knows this? Why do you feel it is necessary to tell her again? It makes you appear weak in the eyes of a WW. She's not going to back down just b/c you tell her you don't want a D. Having R talks with a WW does not work.
Do we truly have to D for her to see and experience life without me (good or bad)?
I think it is going to take a physical separation and her losing the nice benefits she received while M to you. She doesn't know what it is going to be like. She's living in a fantasy and until that fantasy bubble is popped...….she'll continue acting just like you are currently seeing.
I am still baffled how she could be having an affair as she doesn't leave or isn't healthy enough to have any type of relationship.
Oh JS, you just don't understand how strong emotional affairs can be. My affair was never skin on skin. I did everything else, and it totally humiliates me to think about the things I did. We never met in person. You don't have to meet in person to have an affair. As long as she is getting ego food, she'll be hooked. The fantasy and ego food is all she needs. I had one foot out the door to go to the OM, when I was busted. Whatever your W is doing, it's strong enough to tear apart your MR.
I wanted to hold my tongue, but when I saw her on the dating site, I just couldn't and felt for myself I needed to address it.
Okay, you addressed it. You probably felt a little better afterwards b/c it let off some emotional steam. However, did it resolved anything? There is a time for talking about the MR, but while she is wayward is not the time. Once she decides to do the right thing and she ends her waywardness, then talks would be in order. As for you making things worse, I doubt it. It didn't help, and especially letting her know how badly you wanted to keep the family together......but it is what it is. BTW, when she disrespects you again, remember that having a talk is not considered consequences.
((hugs))
JS, just caught up with your most recent developments. Personally I can say detachment has been waaaay easier once WH moved out. No madman waiting at every turn to burst my balloon, talk me down or I having to remind him of the boundaries. But yes, when the WAS moves out it drives the point home harder that the MR is done but like everything else you get over that too. Hoping you find the strength to do what is right for you and your family.
Good Morning Forum!
Sandi, great to have you back.
As always you have this amazing ability to see into the WW's mind and also into mine and give very useful feedback. I truly am at a loss at what to do. And no, I do not know how an EA feels to the WW or anyone for that matter. I guess from the readings that it is almost harder than a PA since the fantasy is real and never damaged. I feel I am being forced into a decision to file for D just based on the fact that our lease is up soon and we either renew or move. Since she stated she is looking for places, my only conclusion is that we will physically separate in a few months. I do not want to be financially tied to her when this happens. I also know that a physical separation will increase her chances of actively pursuing a PA (or dating at that point if we are D'd), but I don't know what else to do.
Is this a good path? The feedback I have gotten is that this situation could go on indefinitely with her attitude so maybe it is a good thing there is a big deadline forcing something. If anyone has any suggestions how to get through this hurdle other than filing for D, please let me know.
W and I have had some decent interactions the past couple of weeks. Other than the one talk about the dating site, zero arguments and zero R talks. I feel her thinking and contemplating at times and know that she is still struggling with her decision but at the moment is steadfast in her decision that I am not the right person to spend the rest of her life with.
To answer your question on consequences, kind of a dead issue is the above comes to pass and then it truly doesn't matter too much anymore. I am committed to db'ing even through the D if I file. Protecting myself and my children as best I can. I will also have a small amount of hope that as she experiences life without me she will see that the grass is greener right over the septic tank and that life with me wasn't as horrible as she portrayed. All the time knowing that my life will go on and there will be no light left on for her but if the timing is right, who knows what might happen in the future.
It is unfortunately sad to me that it is at this point, and again, if ANYONE has an idea how to work through this without a full recon prior (I don't believe she is in that place yet) please let me know!!
Sia, thanks for weighing in and spending the time on my sitch. My attitude the past few days has been better. Detaching more. Not really worrying about W. I do my thing. I don't do anything to purposely antagonize her, nor do I go out of my way to make things better. I made a great dinner for myself and the kids last night. W did eat a little, but it was all for us and they loved it! I cooked things I haven't in years so it was fun being creative again in the kitchen with real food and not kale chips (the aren't that bad, but sometimes you need butter, oil, and the good stuff). I'm out of the house more. Still working out. In the best shape I have been in for probably 25 years. Sleeping better. More relaxed. I'm even getting a better handle on controlling my thoughts at work which was a huge challenge in the beginning.
Finally. Sandi I think you are right. This is going to take a physical separation for her to truly experience life without me. The only way I can look at it is that I would then get sole time with my kids. We can be spontaneous and do what we want when we want within reason of course. My personality will come out more and I believe the relief of tension will get theirs out more and allow for their growth as well. It won't be all roses and rainbows, but some days definitely will be.
Please give me some feedback on this guys. I am way less emotional than I was. In fact, even typing this I am calm. Usually my heart would race through these, but it is more of a matter of fact post than a truly uncontrolled emotional rant or comments.
And no, I do not know how an EA feels to the WW or anyone for that matter. I guess from the readings that it is almost harder than a PA since the fantasy is real and never damaged.
I see the fantasy as being the "fog" that MWD talks about. When it is at its strongest, the WW can act as if some alien has switched bodies. I call it "la-la land", b/c she is so caught up in her EA excitement and dreams of how things will be once she gets out of the M. Her H can try as hard as he can to tell her how it will be, but she doesn't hear him. She has to have something that opens her eyes and shakes the fantasy. It usually takes some type of loss......and it depends on the individual as to what the loss is and/or how great. I'm not necessarily speaking of material losses, but something that is hugely important to her. Once her eyes are opened and she sees her reality, she may choose to continue on that path or try to make amends and reconcile with her H. Sometimes it is too late to reconcile the MR, b/c one of the spouses has remarried and moved on with a new life. Some women continue to stay wayward after their fantasy collapses, b/c they have a harden heart and refuse to repent of their infidelity and make amends with the H. Infidelity, deceitfulness, disrespectful behavior, lies, etc., are manifestations of a wayward heart/mindset. Waywardness is built on rebellion and disrespect, and some people choose not to change b/c it would require too much from them.
As long as the H supports the WW with a comfy lifestyle and nothing is required from her, then the chances of her waywardness changing is very unlikely. Remember, an affair is not what defines a wayward wife. The waywardness was already there in her heart when she chose to cheat. The H may get a big wake up when the bomb drops, and he gets focused on the possibility of another person being in the picture. However, it is the
waywardness that is the original enemy to the MR. Her disrespect and rebellion is leading her to do these other things that destroy a M.
I met the OM on a dating site. When it turned into an EA, and we claimed to be each other's
love, I took my profile down, b/c I wasn't interested in paying for it if I wasn't going to use it. I told him that I took my name off, and foolishly thought he would do the same......if he was serious. He claimed he forgot about it. Really? Even when the monthly bill arrived? Later, when I begin to suspect things weren't all that he claimed, I rejoined the site just long enough to see if his profile was still there........and it was. Surprise, surprise!
Anyway, your W may be shopping for someone, or enjoying the thrill of candidates who are flirting/sexting/pursuing her. She can build quite a list of admirers, once she starts getting responses. There is usually a flirtatious period of chatting, sending photos, lots of flattery, etc., that goes on until one of them decides to move on, if there is no physical meeting.
Thanks Sandi.
This is truly insightful into the mind of a WW. I was humored as to the profile she has up stating all of her sports or physical hobbies. She even suggested that she loves to take a hike everyday. In her current medical state and for the last few years this is impossible. So the fantasy truly exists. She is a great chameleon with her feelings as she isn't chuckling, smiling or making any type of reactions to her phone. And again, she is rarely on it in front of me and it is not constantly going off either. That said, I am not a fool and realize that the odds very great that she is in communication with at least one or several possibilities. Whether she is in an EA or just flirting/texting/etc. No idea. But I cannot be dumb and at this point I believe I have to assume the worst.
I would love your (and everyone else who knows my sitch) to let me know your thoughts on moving ahead, filing and getting this moving. I see this not as a way to shake her out, but as the only true path to protect myself and my kids. I truly don't want a D, but I see no other alternative. If there are any that any of you could think of, please let me know!!
Bumping and hoping for some input on the above post.
Thanks!
Looking at your dates, BD was a year ago? I can't imagine living in the same house with a WAS for a year. I would imagine that getting out of the in-house separation is an important step. Is there any way that you can do that without filing? If not, I would consider filing. But that is a personal decision that you need to decide that you are ready for. What would be worse right now continuing on as is or starting anew after D?
JS,
Look man there are no easy answers. You say you truly don't want a D so you shouldn't file for a D.
What it comes down to is what are your boundaries, your values how do you view yourself.
Are your boundaries I will not be in a M with someone who is actively seeking other men on a dating site? Do you love yourself and value yourself enough to say this is BS and I am not going to put up with it anymore? Do you see yourself as a catch and realize there are plenty of woman out there that would love to have a guy like me?
IMO you should start with trying to get her to move out of the house. Tell her you are done with the BS and offer to pack her $hit and put it in the garage until she can make arrangements to pick it up when she gets a place.
If you continue to wait for something to change while you are still living together, you are going to suffer immensely my friend. If you keep doing what you been doing you will keep getting what you have been given.
She even suggested that she loves to take a hike everyday. In her current medical state and for the last few years this is impossible.
My experience was discovering that people would post a photo of themselves when they were much younger, and pretty much embellish everything about themselves. That's the thing......they hide behind a computer screen or phone, and pretend to be someone they aren't. I had one guy who posted a photo of himself. He looked like a gorgeous Hollywood hunk who appeared no older than his late 30's. I would have sworn it was an old photo of Huge O'Brian in his younger years. Anyway, I sort of laid a trap for him, and short story...... I learned he was really 81.....and he wasn't Huge O'Brian. So much for the Hollywood hunk!
I would love your (and everyone else who knows my sitch) to let me know your thoughts on moving ahead, filing and getting this moving. I see this not as a way to shake her out, but as the only true path to protect myself and my kids. I truly don't want a D, but I see no other alternative.
I have a question. Why does it have to be a divorce or nothing? I mean, why can't it be a physical separation? Maybe even a legal separation? Has your lawyer said a divorce would be cheaper than separating? I know in the past you said you couldn't afford two places, etc. But you were speaking like you'd continue to fully support her if you separated. Did you ask your lawyer about it? I don't know why you would be forced to financially support her 100%. However, I am not experienced in those areas, so IDK. Your lawyer should explain the options and how your finances would be least affected.
As I have previously said, I think it's going to take her having to live on her own, before anything changes to where she'd consider being a committed and intimate MR. This is why it's called tough love, b/c it isn't easy to see our loved ones suffer, but as long they are enabled by us or someone else...….their behavior pattern won't likely change. Living with her, enables her to continue doing this current behavior. If you can live that way.....then I'm not going to tell you to get a divorce. Frankly, I think you'd feel like a victim all the time, but that's JMHO. I will tell you that the changes you've made, have not been enough to change
her. At
best, I think you'd be like roommates. She'll continue to tell you that she's preparing to leave, b/c she knows it keeps you on a very short lease and that you will do anything to prevent her leaving. She knows it. In the meantime, she has someone taking care of her children, taking care of her, and providing a comfortable living. Nothing is being required from her. Do you get what I'm saying? She can live in this situation b/c nothing is required from her. When she doesn't feel well, she can go to bed and leave everything to you. What if she didn't have you? How would things change? That's what I'm saying. I think the only way she will change her relationship with you, is to have her living arrangement changed to where it takes you out of her home.
You can't stay with her in order to prevent her from having an affair. If she wants to cheat, there is a way.....believe me. If she wants to have a PA, she'll figure out how to do it. There are some women who have men come into their homes all the time, and the H is unaware anything is happening. As long as a guy can physically get to her, then her health won't stop them from doing the deed. Sorry to be so blunt, but I think maybe you were in a bit of denial about her not having the time to have an affair, and/or not being physically well enough. Seeing some of her phone activity has, perhaps, changed your mind.....IDK. ((hugs)) So sorry you are hurting.
Thanks for the input everyone!
The situation just stinks.
It has been going on too long.
She doesn't care and has proven it time and time again.
Sandi, if she were to move out and we were just separated without a legal document, then she would just be cake eating with a place to get laid. There is not enough money there to support two households.
She is done. There is nothing I can do at this moment to change anything other than doing what i have done all of the time we have been together...give her what she wants.
Caution to her: Be careful what you wish for...
i believe this is the beginning of the end.
W said a lot of things last night that just proves she has zero respect for me, doesn't like me and is determined to see this through.
I am totally distraught and very sad but eerily calm. Thank you all so much. I would have never made it to this place without the support here. I am not leaving and will post as this goes through. Also, I am not giving up either. As discussed many times by some great people here, my W has not had the opportunity to experience life without me. I'm sure when it happens there will be a short euphoric time for her. I wish her the best and only happiness. I also hope that sometime in the future that there may be a chance for us if the timing is right for both of us (I may have moved on by then) Weird part is that my sadness continues. I am not bitter although I still hate the situation and believe we are better together than apart. She mentioned again last night on how she was "waiting on a mediator to get back to her but she hasn't heard back" Apparently mediators in our area are so busy they can't return calls or emails for 2 weeks and have an inability to want to have a successful business. Hogwash!
I, prior to yesterday, secured my A and we are meeting this morning to begin drafting the petition. I will get it done, present it to my wife when it is ready and hopefully sign and then just the waiting period. I will treat her as fairly as I can and I know it won't be anywhere close to what she wants so this may all just blow up to full blown battling A's. What a waste. The knot in my stomach is for my kids. My W is doing all she can to break my D and I apart and make sure that she ends up hating me. On that front, the only thing I can do is support my D, be there for her and do my best as a father. I have made many mistakes on the parenting front but make no mistake, I love my kids more than anything!
My W also said I was overcompensating with my S and kissing his butt to make sure he is ok. I am coddling him a bit as he is younger, more naive and needs a decent male role model in his life. I am and will continue to be that.
My belief is my W still has no idea on how she is going to pull this off. Is delusional in what she believes she can live on and right now the only thing she wants is to get away from me. Hardest thing she said to me last night was "I am myself, I just choose not to let you see it. Everyone else does and I love being myself I just hate being around you".
I have often thought that I truly could be the problem and I own what I did wrong. My W is in full denial on anything she did or has an amazingly twisted justification for it all. Sheltered from the world, the rude awakening will be coming for her. I would love to see her thrive, be happy and successful. I have my doubts that unless she was just faking it for almost a decade, I just don't see that happening. After all of this, I still love her with all my heart and soul and for this I must let her go.
I will DB my way through this whole thing. Even though I am choosing this route it is not out of desire to D, but just the reality of the situation. I didn't bring it up, but W is not interested in a separation, and frankly neither am I. With a separation, she still has me on the hook and knows I am still there for her.
As I have read on this board many times in the past. The in home separation has done nothing but simmer, stew and make our situation untenable. IF my W would allow some fun back into our life we would have had a chance. She chose to curl in her corner.
I don't blame her either. A catastrophic calamity of circumstances that even individually would have been hard to handle. Add them all together and the recipe just spelled doom. Different times, different attitudes, better tools, all might have made a difference. But it happened in the worst possible way.
Hope is there and I believe will be there for awhile but I will not cling to that for my daily crumbs of "what might have been". She is an adult and has made her decision.
Again. PLEASE don't abandon me on here. I know I will need support, guidance and a lot of feedback as I go through this phase. My emotions have even come stronger just writing this so I will end on the note that this is just a paperwork process. It changes nothing on how I feel towards my W.
JustSad, why are you filing for D? What is the main reason?
Main reason is that I see no chance for an R as we stay in this current state.
With the lease coming up in a few months, my W has stated several times that she will be out soon (again last evening). She wants nothing to do with me, looks at me with such disdain, says she doesn't even like me (I can feel this as well). THE ONLY REASON SHE IS STILL HERE IS FINANCIAL. So really what is the point? Drag this out longer so she can feed into my D's attitude of hatred toward me? W has no opportunity to experience the real world without my shelter and I know this is my fault for taking care and sheltering her all these years. Perhaps, as I mentioned, I am the one holding her back in her life as she states. I don't think so, but if I am here picking up the pieces and she doesn't have to hold her own, how will she ever realize the pressures of real life? I contemplated the separation thing, but in my state, a legal separation is almost equal to a divorce. Health insurance, assets, all of that stuff as well as child custody are done. It is even more difficult to D after that since you have to go through the process of cancelling the separation in order to move forward with a D.
Steve, this is not a trick, ploy, plot or desire to "shake her out of her fog". If it was, I would tell you its a last ditch effort to get this going, it is not. She is a strong woman in a lot of ways and once she makes up her mind it is very hard for her to change it. 20+years with her I can only give you my opinionated observance on that. She mentioned last night that she did love I was nicer, more pleasant and everything else. I listened, validated and then she went into the part of just not liking me and she believes she will be 1000% happier when she is gone. She is also aligning my D in this as well as although she swears she is not, some of the sentences that she shares with me, i.e. sentence she said to my D "When we get out of here, things will be better" type of thing. I know she is setting my D up and all I can do is support my D forever and be there when/if things fall apart.
She brought up the past again. It will take her quite some time to see that I am not the Monster that she is portraying me to be. I am just a man trying to make it in this world, love his family, spend time with his family and have some fun along the way.
I don't know if I answered your question as my head is spinning a little at the moment.
Ok, but why are you doing the work for her? She wants the D. You do not. You should make her take the necessary steps.
Thats the huge issue.
She doesn't do anything. lease ends. she moves out. I'm then on the hook for whatever is determined. Car is still in our name that i would have to continue paying for. I think it would be about the same as Did's sitch. Cake eating all over the place with me supporting her and her lifestyle choices. AND there is just not enough money there to make it happen. What alternative do I have to protect myself? I really am asking for alternatives. This in home thing isn't working. In fact I think it is just solidifying her decision as our only interactions are about finance and the kids. And they are usually not "Hey we made a lot more money than we thought" Or "S or D are doing great at this". They are always a financial bad discussion along with the kids issues and dealing with them.
HELP!!
JS, I am not your financial adviser. I am not a D attorney. So take everything I say with that in mind. If you are at the point where you can look at your sitch from a purely financial and legal standpoint then just throw everything I am about to say out the window, and do what you need to do. (Do the needful as my friends from India are fond of saying.)
But if you still have emotional attachment, if you haven't done the work to get to a point where YOU want D. Then my suggestion is to do nothing. You see making the decision on D based on what is better legally for you or financially for you, from my perspective, is a terrible basis for making this kind of decision. If you came on here and said "I am done, I don't want to be married to her anymore, and I am ready to move on with my life without her" then I'd be all "go for it JS!"
I've been on record in this forum before that if the LBS doesn't want D then they should NOT file for D. I highly doubt your W is going be ready to leave or separate or D by time your lease is up. Likely she will continue to do nothing and want the status quo. I know you started your update with "things she said". BELIEVE NOTHING THEY SAY.
Anyway, that is my input. Do with it what you will. You've been to the point of filing for D without wanting a D before. I see no reason why those times are different than this time.
JS, Steve could be completely right, but when I look at the sitch you're in and how miserable you are I think this is one of the rare cases where maybe it make sense for you to take action instead of waiting on W. Your W is never, ever going to lift a finger to do anything. I realize she has health problems but beyond that I just think she is also extremely lazy. She will never initiate D or moving out, but you can bet she will keep right on complaining about how miserable she is and how it's over and she's done... ad nauseum. You have a pending move still, right? I still say it's time to make a break. Whether that means D to you or not is for you to decide, but I would make the move and make it crystal clear to your W that she is not moving with you. Maybe she moves to the same town so that co-parenting is easier, but NOT with you.
At this point it's not about what will bring her back because she has to be AWAY before she can come BACK. And she is not "away", she is perpetually there. It is about what YOU need to do for your own health and well-being. And I am convinced that separation is what you need for that.
AS is very wise and I would never disagree with his advice. Maybe he is right.
JS, are you the kind of person that always regrets their decisions? I am. The reason I said wait until you want D is because if you are like me I would always wonder if I had just waited just a little longer what would have happened. Once you are done and ready to D for you, then this is no longer an issue because essentially she ran out of time, it wasn't just you jumping the gun.
Whatever you decide know we are here for you!
Steve and AS,
Thank you both for the input.
I know believe nothing they say and only half of what they do. I just have this pressure of the pending move and have no idea what to do. Here is what I am doing. I have retained an A. I haven't filed yet. I am having them draw up the paperwork the way I think is fair (I know this is a very one sided statement but all I have). I am doing my best to put myself in her shoes as well as doing what I think is right for my children. Not so funny, but the weird part is the argument that she would represent.
I need alimony since I can't work. Well, if you don't have the ability to work, how are you going to care for 2 kids full time? A double edged sword on both of our sides however it is argued. Better to hopefully agree up front if it is to go that way.
Steve and AS. NO, I do not want a D. However, I see no other alternative given the situation that I can protect myself and my children. Unfortunately I believe my W must experience the "real world" since I am no longer a part of hers, and with it the ramifications, happiness, cruelty, struggles, fun and all the rest that goes into the real world. Sandi has said it a few times that my W will never look back and contemplate the consequences of her decisions as long as I am providing for everything. I wish it were different. I just don't see any other way presently.
I will continue to post and seek advice prior to doing anything.
I value the wisdom and guidance. i haven't done it all correctly. Have stumbled many times and will probably do so several more. I have learned a lot and continue to do the best I can.
JS, we all support you regardless of your decision. I personally think you are making the right one, not just for your own health but paradoxically for the possibility of future recon. Good luck my friend.
Thanks guys!
I appreciate the input.
Steve, other than the usual sometimes wondering what might have been thing I am a make a decision and move on kind of guy.
Retained the A and we made notes. As I said, I am not filing yet. My A knows that I do not want this to happen and that I just want to be prepared. It was a lot less emotional that I thought. I guess outside of custody issues it is just numbers and that is a great area for my mind to work.
I also didn't hesitate signing so I don't know if I will file, but I am confident in at least getting the legal advice and my thoughts down. Now, if I'm blindsided, at least I am not standing on my heels.
JS,
I have no great advice to offer you, just support. It's hard when you don't know what to do. This stuck feeling is no fun, but we have to our best and make the best out of our situation. A positive mental attitude can be the difference in a meaningful life or a boring one, so keep faith and make your life what you want it to be.
Just checking on you. Hope you are okay. Love to hear something soon.
Good Morning DB Forum.
I have intentionally stayed away from posting this week in an attempt to detach more and not contemplate everything in life and my MR every day. This was a very busy week with GAL, work, kids, etc. So it was good. Nothing has improved, other that I would say my mood and my detachment. I went out with a friend for dinner a few nights ago and it was great. We didn't talk about my sitch, just visited, watched a game and had a little fun. other than that, it was all work, working out and doing my thing. All in all a decent week. For what its worth, I think yesterday was the first time in over a year that I actually felt like my old self. I had great energy and just had an overall great outlook on life. I was out early so I don't think my W had the opportunity to see that, but it really wasn't for her. it was just amazing to feel the way i felt. I know i am bounding back and I will be ok regardless of what happens with my MR.
Small synopsis of what has happened this week that I noticed.
W has had a rough week health wise and hasn't gone anywhere. She is short tempered with the kids, and not unpleasant, just tired and seems aggravated easily. She still isn't going anywhere or doing anything. I had a bday a few days ago. Took the kids to dinner. They got me (W did of course) a card each that they signed and they got me a present. Dinner was good. W declined to go (whether this was health, food or just didn't want to do it, I do not know and did not press) I simply invited her, she declined and we all left. Weirdest part of the day was in the evening, we were in bed and we went to turn in. I shut off the lights and said goodnight. In the dark, out of nowhere she said "I hope you and the kids had a good dinner and I hope you had a good birthday". I just said "We did and thank you". I don't know why she said it, why she waited until the last possible moment, or what, but I thought it a little funny. I acknowledged her statement and went to sleep
We have chatted a few more times than usual this week and even talked on the phone instead of texting. I had a few driving times that prevented me from texting so that was the reason, but they were pleasant conversations about the kids/dinner/health/house etc.
The last thing that happened was the hardest for me to control. She came down one evening out of the blue. She had gone up to take a shower. It is getting darker earlier so it was dark outside. She came in the room wearing her short silky robe. She started to tell me about an issue with one of our children that had just happened. She did not sit in her usual spot, but chose to sit directly across from me. It was really tough not to stare at her as I haven't seen her that way in a long time. We talked, I listened, validated gave a little input on our child. She seemed to drag it out a little longer than she should. It was tough, but I controlled myself, my words and my actions.
Outside of that, My A is drawing up the proposal for me. I don't know how I will proceed, but believe that I need to get this done and have a meeting with my W to discuss the terms of our D. I still do not want a D, but see no way that our MR can survive this way and the limbo part is killing me. I am not doing this to shock her back into a new MR, I am doing this for myself and my kids. They don't deserve this and neither do I.
As always, input is GREATLY appreciated. I have worked diligently these past couple of weeks to keep out of any argument or fight and that has worked. I haven't been a doormat but have been polite, cordial and just done my thing. I still miss her dearly every day but I know I cannot allow her to dominate my thoughts.
Nothing has improved, other that I would say my mood and my detachment.
That's a lot more than nothing! Good work! Keep up the DBing and GALing!
As always, input is GREATLY appreciated.
Wow, well that was a fantastic post! You're doing a great job at everything, I would say just keep doing what you're doing! Well done!
Hi JS,
you are doing well it seems. I think the birthday thing was bread crumb, or her not wanting you to feel bad. Either way there's no point in mindreading here, but I think you knew that already.
Sorry to hear you're going to file, but you gotta do what you gotta do. Good luck and take care of those kids!
I'm glad you took a few days away from the board, b/c sometimes it can consume too much of our time. It's funny how there is a certain tone or vibe of the poster's shot of self value or confidence when he
really begins to let go of the WW drama and puts action to having a life without her. Maybe some people think we are speaking of have a lifetime apart from her...…..but I am saying that he needs to take hours apart from her, then take days, and weeks, etc. He will begin to see that life goes on, in spite of the drama his WW tries to throw on his spirit. He must refresh his own inner being, It's comparable to the plane passenger grabbing the oxygen mask for himself, before he is able to save anyone else. I like using the example of trying to save a drowning victim. Especially if that victim doesn't know how to swim, she is in so much panic that she's not going to work with you in order to save her life. She's grabbing at you and pulling you under the water. She will drown you, if you don't break away and swim to save your own life.
Happy birthday, and congrats to you for celebrating with your kids.....away from the house. That was a good decision to remove you and the kids from that environment for celebration. It is difficult to laugh, and enjoy celebrating when in the presence of someone who is clearly not along to have a good time......or if they try to keep everyone's focus on them and how
they feel. Even when that person is dealing with physical issues, it can bring a level of guilt for for the rest of the family who tries to celebrate and have too much fun. Know what I mean? In other words, the family has been trained to just go through the motions of celebrating an event......but always taking in account of your W's health. Listen, I've been there! I've been there as the one who lives with chronic pain, and I've been there as a family member of one who has the serious health problems...….so I know how it affects families. I know the guilty feelings from both sides! Anyway, good for you and the kids for making this step to continue enjoying the blessings of being alive.
In the dark, out of nowhere she said "I hope you and the kids had a good dinner and I hope you had a good birthday". I just said "We did and thank you". I don't know why she said it, why she waited until the last possible moment, or what, but I thought it a little funny. I acknowledged her statement and went to sleep
Absolutely perfect response!!!
The last thing that happened was the hardest for me to control. She came down one evening out of the blue. She had gone up to take a shower. It is getting darker earlier so it was dark outside. She came in the room wearing her short silky robe. She started to tell me about an issue with one of our children that had just happened. She did not sit in her usual spot, but chose to sit directly across from me. It was really tough not to stare at her as I haven't seen her that way in a long time. We talked, I listened, validated gave a little input on our child. She seemed to drag it out a little longer than she should. It was tough, but I controlled myself, my words and my actions.
Good job!
Thank you all so much for your comments and support.
Unfortunately today has not turned out well.
Things went way off the rails. I did react and rightfully so and then found out a couple of other things.
Moving forward with drawing up everything. I am appalled at her actions.
I never thought she was capable of this. Her entire morality has now changed. I wonder how this is going to affect both her future and the future of our children since it will most likely all come out eventually.
For myself and my kids, I just want to get this done and over with so we can all move on.
I still love my wife. I do not want a D, but there is no other alternative.
I strongly believe her world will come crashing down and the reality of the world will set in.
I may be 100% wrong on this and she may go on and have an amazing wonderful life. The possibility is there and I am going to do my best to wish her the best in her future.
I know I will be ok, that I will move forward and have a great life. I am still just sad as to how long we have been together and the fact that this is over.
I would have done anything for this woman and I believe that I have. I can now look myself in the mirror and know that I have done all that I can to try to save our MR. I know that I made some very big mistakes in our marriage. None were enough to end it, but she sees it a different way.
Enjoy your weekend all!
Hang in there JustSad. It's never as bad as it seems in the moment.
I am not going to lie.
This was a rough weekend.
My heart is still way too attached apparently. I kept a decent outer shell this weekend, but inside I am still reeling. I have read about these on other sitche's, but the gut punches really hurt. I've thought about it for a few days, and I am realizing that this is just part of what I have to go through. Funny thing is that I am very sad, I am not panicked this time. Not to say I wasn't short of breath a time or two as this did just catch me as inconceiveable, but I was always just fooling myself.
I still care for her very much. It is just so sad.
Nothing wrong with caring about her. I think we should care about all of our fellow humans! The problem is caring too much about what she says and does. To the point where it is affects your emotions and mood.
See this is where so many get DBing wrong.
DB FOR YOU! Not for her. When you DB with the expectation that it is going to save your marriage, then you will invariably fail. You need to DB so that you are OK no matter what happens. If you are still too attached at this point then likely you have been DBing with one eye on her to see how she reacts. If she reacts positively your hopes go up and you think you are saving it. If she reacts negatively then you spiral and ask "what's the point".
Here are what your daily goals should be:
1) Did I get through the day without worrying about what she says and does, and without attaching any expectations to your DBing efforts.
2) That no one filed for D (unless this is what you want, and you can always decide to pull the plug at any moment).
3) That you didn't engage in any pressure or pursuit. In word or deed. That you didn't engage her in a R talk. That you didn't snoop. Etc.
4) That the rest of your family's needs were met! (If she isn't willing to meet a need, then step in and do it.)
There are others that others might be able to add, but the point is notice this is all about you. What you can do. What you should do.
I know you've struggled with patience, that is why you should concentrate on EACH day. Not the past, not what might happen in the future. But simply striving each day to achieve the above.
Thanks Steve.
I always appreciate your input. You always come in with a level head and aren't afraid to call me out.
I realize that I am too attached. I also know that I have detached better and that I feel differently when these things occur. I do know that I will be ok regardless of how my MR ends up. As many have stated, and I fully agree, I do not think we have even the remotest of chances until we are apart. Unfortunately, there is no way to accomplish this without us filing and getting this done. I don't know if she might change her mind during, but given she has been relentless for over a year with wanting this. She is slowly but surely moving her way into her new life. She is trying to cushion it was much as she can. She is not dumb and is looking for her next bridge. I think she is a brilliant manipulator at this point and so far she has had me hang around for her safety/security and any mind temps that she might have along the way just to make herself feel better. I have said this before, maybe the best thing for her is to get out of our MR. She seems to feel this way that getting rid of me is the answer to all of her issues. I know that isn't the case. She may fall into a great new relationship that meets all of her needs including financial. I don't know. I do know that the odds of that are not good. I don't wish her any ill will, just ready to get on with my life and make my kids a stable home. I don't want to be around for the ggw stage and I definitely don't want to be involved when it all crashes.
I am a touch angry at the moment. More angry with myself for putting up with it for so long. For her, it is more of disgust knowing someone has thrown all of their moral codes out, Pity, looking ahead and seeing the very difficult road (I know imaginary, but somethings like work/kids require time that her health and probably her new social agenda will challenge.
And yes, I will say it again, sadness. I am sad where we ended up. That she has chosen her path and it is without me. I can only drop the rope all the way and move forward.
Question:
I feel very comfortable with my decision, yet I am still yearning to work out my MR. Is this normal and natural given the situation? Knowing and accepting takes time.
And I am not moving this forward for anyone else but myself and my children. I do believe there will be consequences for her through her roller coaster, but I just can't watch it any more. I need to fully let ALL of this go.
I think that is normal. I think most of us, even when we began to embrace D, were torn. I think the biggest thing you have to get past is the notion that maybe if you hang on a little longer then things would turn around. If you can move forward without that regret then you are ready, even if you still have a desire to try to save things.
Even those (like OrangeK's) where D was definite talked about that "yearning".
I think that is normal. I think most of us, even when we began to embrace D, were torn. I think the biggest thing you have to get past is the notion that maybe if you hang on a little longer then things would turn around. If you can move forward without that regret then you are ready, even if you still have a desire to try to save things.
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This is, in my mind, the hardest thing to process. I have filed for D, but I don't want it. I did it because my L advised that I needed to in my situation because of our disagreement on custody. I think you (and me too) have to decide what is best for your family, and detach that from what you want with your W. Maybe I'm wrong, since I can't seem to decide what to do myself...
I am a touch angry at the moment. More angry with myself for putting up with it for so long. For her, it is more of disgust knowing someone has thrown all of their moral codes out,
Frankly, I think it is high time that you feel anger. Maybe I am the last person on earth who should tell a LBH how he should feel, IDK, but sometimes a certain type of anger can place a firecracker under his a$$ to let go of her and all of her drama & issues......and leave her with it. Know what I mean? You can't be her caregiver (physically or emotionally). So, It's like you brush your hands of it. It may sound a little harsh to your ears b/c you have a gentle, caring soul...….but I'm telling you this is what you have to do.
As I've told you in the past, this is the only thing that makes any sense. And, I say this from knowing the mindset of the WW. Yes, she is very smart in knowing how to manipulate, but she is also a "user". I hate
users, and at some point I think most WW's do use people......more especially the LBH. To allow yourself to feel anger, may help you break from her hold. You can't worry over how she'll make it without your assistance. She's smart, she'll figure it out. Just be prepared to see her pull out the emotional tools to use. I'd guess the main tools she'll use is "guilt" and "pity". Those two kind of mesh together. Although she may have said yada, yada, yada...…….she'll try to make you feel guilty or feel sorry for how hard things are for her.
Plus, don't think she won't use her health as a tool to make you feel badly. I realize that sounds horrible, but I'm telling you there is no length or depth some WW's won't go. It may be for manipulative purposes, or just cause she can make you feel rotten. The LBH has to wear a protective amour at all times, or she'll catch him at his weakest and shoot those manipulative arrows right into his heart.
I think that will be the toughest part for you, b/c it has been so ingrained into your brain to be concerned for her welfare...….and holding the family unit together. It may be tough to change gears, but you have to keep your eyes on the road. I've watched some of my adult children, siblings, etc. go through unwanted divorces. The children, parents, grandparents, etc.,
adjusted. We have a close family and when there is a death or divorce......it is a loss for everyone. Now, the kids have two homes, and we work with the schedules and work to make the best of what we have. But the point I want to make is that you make those adjustments and life goes on. Listen, when my DIL divorced my S, I felt as if one of my kids had died. It affected our entire family (grandparents, etc.), but we had to move on with life and have birthday celebrations, etc., in spite of the absence of that person we loved. I'm not telling you anything you don't already know. It's just me trying to put my arms around you and tell you that you and your kids will be okay. I do wish my grandchildren had seen a counselor when everything blew apart, b/c in that case, it was so fast and such a shock and the kids were so young. Everyone was in shock and torn up, we didn't know how to help the kids. So, I'd suggest to everyone to have your kids see a professional counselor, at least in the initial time when the spouses separate/divorce. They need someone who is emotionally detached from the family who can answer questions and explain things in an unbiased way.....and just let the kids feel like they can safely/freely express their feelings.
Pity, looking ahead and seeing the very difficult road (I know imaginary, but somethings like work/kids require time that her health and probably her new social agenda will challenge.
And yes, I will say it again, sadness. I am sad where we ended up. That she has chosen her path and it is without me. I can only drop the rope all the way and move forward.
That's okay to have those feelings. It's a sad situation, and divorce is not the answer to making it better. However, she apparently thinks otherwise. You've tried very hard for a long time, hoping she would see the value in what was there.....and what was possible. Whenever a woman feels "done" with the M, it is extremely difficult for the H to convince her things can be better. You see, when she feels
done, she just doesn't care anymore. The H doesn't get it. He just doesn't get that she is really done, and he has the idea he can change her mind. That's why when we see a H doing all his 180's to show his WW how he can change and make things better, and it doesn't work. It's b/c she doesn't want a relationship with him, no matter how many self improvements he makes. She's done! It's over.
It's such a waste and so unnecessary, and you have every right to feel the way you do. It's okay to mourn. Feeling anger is often a stage of mourning.
You are a good person, JS. Your children are so blessed to have you as their dad. Training yourself to take your focus off your W may take some time, b/c you've taken care of her for a long time. Once you physically separate from her, I think the burden of taking care of her and doing all the things to take up the slack, will lighten...….if you'll let it. I hope you follow what I mean. I can see you enjoying life, and doing things with your kids that are so freeing from the current situation.
(((hugs)))
Thank you Sandi!
it is amazing to have the support from everyone on this board.
i truly would love to save my MR into a greater MR 2.0.
At this moment, I do not believe that is possible.
As far as if it is possible for the future, i am unsure. I just know that I am `done and i need to move this forward.
I do see myself and my kids enjoying life, being spontaneous and allowing ourselves to enjoy ourselves in the future.
Crazy, but I can see it!
I would love for some outside crazy idea to hold out hope, but I just don't see it. My W has to experience the roller coaster of life with the regular twists and turns of life before she can ever have any reason to see what kind of i have live to provide for her and the kids. I wasn't easy, but I made it happen.
How long will it take her to realize? No one knows. It could take a couple of weeks, many years, or that she is just fine without "us" and onto her new life...
Struggling a bit yesterday and today.
It is difficult when other issues creep in. It is even worse when those issues are so important that it seems the MR is the LEAST. My D is struggling big time in school, socializing, depression, just everything. Throw that along with having a ringside seat watching their parents marriage fall apart. I wish my W and I could pull together and help our daughter. She sees it more of a way to exclude me again and not have me involved. This is very serious. And we briefly spoke about it yesterday, then last evening discovered that she lied directly to my face about the entire situation. How can I parent when I don't know what is happening? She is my daughter. She is OUR daughter. I know my W currently despises me and wants nothing to do with me. This isn't about our MR, us, me or anything other than our daughter.
Couldn't sleep. Laid in bed just thinking about the other times when bad things happened and we were supportive of each other. Just another thing gone on the road of life I guess.
My head tells me that I have to do everything I can to stay involved regardless of how my W acts, says or feels. My heart just wants my daughter to find a stable path and thrive in this world for her.
There are a couple of hours before everyone gets rolling around here, so some input would be great on this.
I know it has absolutely nothing to do with my MR, but most of us on here have children and have to deal with this. My W and I are at such a bad bad place that other than me inserting myself into the situation and making sure I'm communicated with, I would just be ignored and pacified.
Help please. I am there for my daughter forever!
little bump for some input please...
My input? Cut out the middle man. As a parent you can go directly to the sources and get the real answer. If she won't coparent, then uniparent.
Thanks Steve.
I am taking a more role as you suggested effective immediately.
I am so up and down the last 2 days. I am resigned to the fact that my W and I are done. My ONLY concern is my D's safety and security and to support her through this. Problem I have is that W doesn't want me involved. Keeps very important things from me. And, contrary to her words, it feels like she is putting her own viewpoints onto our D and having a huge negative influence upon her.
Just struggling with this. I want to sweep my D away, protect her and get her the help she needs. With this in mind, I keep getting thoughts in my head of just sweeping the whole family away so we could have a fresh start. I know it is unfathomable to even contemplate this, but the mind will bring in what it does.
These thoughts are not overwhelming as they used to be. I recognize them quicker and move on from them. I have decided not to dismiss them, but to experience them in my mind as part of this process of working through. Of course every parent wants to help and protect their child! Every parent would do what it takes to support their children. And I also believe, that for the most part, parents want both the mother and father involved (even if not in the same home) in their child's life.
Tough. Real problems on top of everything else.
No wonder my W wants out. I am realizing more and more on her selfishness. I know she will be there for our daughter, but it seems like the slightest inconvenience is SO frustrating for my W.
Of course she isn't having any fun in our home. She dislikes me. Blames me for a lot of things. All we have are kid conversations (mostly logistical or disciplinary) so no fun there, We do nothing social so no fun there. She blames a lot of her health issues on me (again a little selfishness as I don't have that kind of power). When we part, she will have to throw on the 100%(half the time) parenting role, add in a job, and the entire household to take care of. I hope her energy can get her through. I wish her all the happiness and hope that she will have a wonderful life. I hope that when I see her she looks great and is doing well. My wishes.
I do not think it will be that rosy nor that full of rainbows. Maybe since it has rained and been so cloudy in our lives for so long, just the newness will feel like rainbows for her.
As I said, my feelings this week are all over the place. Again, more controlled, but I feel the detachment growing stronger for both myself and my W.
Sorry man. Maybe sit down and have a coparenting discussion? "I know we are done, and I am ready to move on with D. However we need to discuss coparenting..........."
She has to come to grips with the fact that you are lifetime coparents, like it or not.
Just happened.
She is so mad, angry and done with me.
I asked her to please separate her feeling towards me regarding me being her husband and the fact that I am our daughter's father. We need to support her together through this and being at odds is not good.
She went on and on about how I was controlling and always have been.
I stopped. validated.
Then told her that she needs to put her feelings for me and being done with me aside. THIS is the most important thing in our lives right now.
This is how I feel and I don't know how to change it if she doesn't change the way she does things. She hates men. Period. Discussed this earlier in posts regarding where/who she is looking to date next. Do you think this is coming through to our D? YES. My d has already said she has some "open" views on sexuality. I told her I only want her to be happy. BUT if my W is constantly trashing men (and me) how will my daughter see any reason to have me in her life or want me in her life?
Just [censored].
W said some harsh things. She is DONE. Very much dislikes me. The usual that I have heard. I acknowledged her feelings and said that I understand she feels that way. I also again stated that we need to come together for our daughter through this.
I believe the in home separation has truly caused a GREAT detriment in any chance for R. Not that I didn't DB ok (not well, just ok) but that she was so far gone when I started, I think it just solidified her decision. Her not having any reality checks along the way has let her slide in her fog and fantasy world.
I hate this.
I just want my daughter to be happy, healthy and to enjoy life.
JS, sorry man. That does suk, no question.
I wish I could give you some good advice related to your D14, but if you read my posts you know that my relationship with my D15 isn't very good. So I will have to let other fathers chime in here. I know your heart is in the right place. And that is a very good thing.
This is how I feel and I don't know how to change it if she doesn't change the way she does things. She hates men. Period. Discussed this earlier in posts regarding where/who she is looking to date next. Do you think this is coming through to our D? YES. My d has already said she has some "open" views on sexuality. I told her I only want her to be happy. BUT if my W is constantly trashing men (and me) how will my daughter see any reason to have me in her life or want me in her life?
Really the only way you can show your daughter your steadfast love and how men should treat women is through example. Actions speak a lot louder than words. Don't fall into the trap and be reactionary or defend yourself. Show your daughter every moment you are with her how men should treat women. That goes for your interactions with your W, especially when your daughter is around. As far as just wanting your daughter to be happy, well she probably isn't right now. Just stay the course on your good interactions with her. The consistency will pay off in the long run.
BIG problem is W is so adamant against me personally right now how can it not affect my D's attitude toward me?
I think it will just get worse moving forward with the D. I have to stand up for what I believe in and my W just wants me to go down the drain with the water.
I appreciate everyone here on the board. Having this resource helps immensely just to get the thoughts and feelings out of my head. Not a good week for my family.
W is very cold, uncaring and harsh to me. She is escalating her desire to move. Outside of discussing our daughter and getting her taken care of, there has not been much discussion other than her offhanded responses of "I need to get out of here", " I can't wait to get away from this", etc. etc. etc. She was looking for places on her laptop and wasn't even hiding it from me last evening.
I let her do her thing. She is going to do it anyway. I am proceeding with my part and preparing for the future (funny thing there, I originally wrote preparing for the worst, then thought about it for a moment. I have decided to make my life more positive no matter what moving forward).
I hope that someday we can get to a better place and coparent our kids well. This is going to be a VERY difficult few months getting through all of this. I am prepared for her to move. I am not prepared to be without my kids half the time. I actually think my W is looking forward to being without all of us. She loves her kids, but in her selfish state she has stated it many times before that she just wants to be alone and away from everyone.
Of course, I think it was Steve that said it, "the only reason a spouse wants another place is so they can sleep with someone". I agree. She is ready to move on. This is not saying that I am giving up DB'ing. I wanted to make that clear. At this moment, if we could agree on boundaries, I would want to work things out.
I know there is no way to get her to see differently at the moment. This will be a timeline of her own choosing. I have no control over her. I only can control myself and make sure my children have a safe, secure, loving, happy home.
Didn't sleep last night. Tired as anything today. I will put my best face on this morning and any interaction with my W and kids will be good. Today is a positive day!
I have used this line many times and I will honestly say that I believe these are numbered but:
It is Friday, and I my familly is still under the same roof. Changed it a little bit as I have come to realize that space and time is the only chance my W has of her fog lifting. I also don't see this happening as she is very stubborn.
All I can do is watch out for my kids and myself and wish her the best.
W is very cold, uncaring and harsh to me. She is escalating her desire to move. Outside of discussing our daughter and getting her taken care of, there has not been much discussion other than her offhanded responses of "I need to get out of here", " I can't wait to get away from this", etc. etc. etc. She was looking for places on her laptop and wasn't even hiding it from me last evening.
I let her do her thing. She is going to do it anyway.
JS,
Look man, I know this isn't easy but based on what you wrote above, you still are putting pressure on your W. You let her do it? Did you have a choice?
In my sitch in the beginning when I was still pursuing my ex once said "I have to get out of here I feel trapped". Talk about a gut punch. Fast forward a year later after I accepted the M was over, I basically had to tell her that she had to find a house because she couldn't live here no more. Not because I didn't love her, but because I decided that if she didn't want to be a family anymore that's ok but you can't stay here anymore.
You are so afraid of the unknown that your fear is driving you to make things worse!
Accept right now today that your marriage is over. My best guess is it will take her at minimum 2 years to realize she made a mistake.
Now it's time to man up a be the rock for your kids. Don't worrying about co-parenting, my ex and I are very amicable and I talk to her maybe once a week. With technology and shared calendars it makes it really easy. Don't worry about 50/50 custody, it is not as bad as it sounds. You will still have plenty of time to create memories with them to last a life time.
Time and space are the only thing that will turn this around. She has to choose to want to be with you. Drop the rope my friend, I promise you that you will be just fine.
I agree with LH. I just want to add that I should take the kids to IC if I were you.
My best wishes for you and your family JS.
JS, prayers my friend. I know you've been through an ordeal here, maybe even more so than most LBSs. I think you have the right focus here. Just try to control what you can, you, and be the best you for your kids that you can be!
Thanks everybody for the input and support.
I have dropped the rope.
I am not trying to control her or second guess what she does. She will do what she will do.
I will continue to DB and take care of my kids and myself.
D is in counseling already I will get S in there soon.
I will update as I can.
She is escalating her desire to move.
How, by complaining more and pulling up a website or two? This woman is the laziest WAW I think I've ever seen. I will be shocked if she actually lifts a finger to do anything. I think she's hoping that her bitching will drive you to the point where YOU take the action for her.
I have decided to make my life more positive no matter what moving forward).
Absolutely. It couldn't be much worse than being stuck in the sitch you're in right now.
I hope that someday we can get to a better place and coparent our kids well. This is going to be a VERY difficult few months getting through all of this. I am prepared for her to move. I am not prepared to be without my kids half the time.
Yes the first month or two are very tough. But you'll settle into the new routine and get used to it. Try and focus on the time you do have with the kids rather than the time you don't have with them. IE, when you don't have them then fill that time with awesome GAL activities, and when you do have them then enjoy your "dad time".
I actually think my W is looking forward to being without all of us.
I'd say you are correct about that. But man is she in for a rude awakening. She's putting so much stock into being happy simply by cutting you out of her life that she's going to be surprised indeed when that happiness isn't just "there". It's going to be a "now what?" moment I suspect.
I think it was Steve that said it, "the only reason a spouse wants another place is so they can sleep with someone".
I'm sure that's right a lot of the time. But I think many WAS's just want to be away from the LBS that they blame for all their woes. During my pre-DB snooping I found a note my ex had sent to her best friend telling her that her worst nightmare was thinking that she might some day have a serious health issue and that I would be taking care of her. Me, her husband of 20+ years that loved her unconditionally, it was her WORST NIGHTMARE (her exact words) that she would have to depend on me for care. Wow. I mean that is what we're up against, a WAS that doesn't like us and may even hate us. They find us repulsive, even disgusting. I'm convinced that THAT is why they want out so bad. Sure they have visions of banging a white knight too, but they just really want to get away from us way more than we can understand or imagine.
By the way my ex doesn't talk like that anymore. She frequently asks me for help and advice, and tells others how awesome I am. She compliments my physique, my artistic abilities and my dad skills. I even overheard her talking to two neighbors who asked if I was her husband when they saw me walking inside, she said "oh that's my ex, but he is really an amazing man!" when she thought I was inside the house (I was in the garage). Anyway my point is this- these terrible things they think and feel about us DO pass. I don't think they do while under the same roof, but separation does wonders for helping a WAS get over all those negative thoughts and feelings.
AS
Great insight!
It is amazing how it seems the WAW's all read from the same script.
All are unique but they ring most of the same bells along the way.
I would LOVE to tell you that this is just her blowing smoke. I just don't feel that this time. We have just a few months left in this house so we have to move somewhere. She is calling places and looking to go see them I think next week. I didn't listen in, but did hear a conversation just going through the room. Do I think she is wanting me to hear this.
Yes.
I still have no idea how she is going to get into a home with no income. Maybe her parents are going to sign for her. She is either VERY smart in her planning or she is in for a rude awakening when she goes to fill out the application. No idea. And I don't care. The conversation she had was kind of funny to me. I already consulted an A and they said that she cannot change our kids school district without my approval. They have been in the same district for 7 years. Other than K and 1st for my D it is the only one my kids have know. If she moves without discussing it first and arbitrarily does it, I believe the judge, if need be, would order her to keep them in the same school district. That would stink for her since she was talking to a place that is about 30 minutes away. Add in the winter weather and the fact that she wouldn't be able to use anyone to help carpool means she would spend at least 2 hours a day just getting them back and forth. Way bad for the kids.
I will not get involved unless she moves and does something.
DB all the way this weekend. GAL. sporting events with the kids and then a few hikes over the weekend.
New Thread:
Determined now as I move forward...