Following from:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2805511#Post2805511I had a sleeping pill last night and felt a bit better for most of the day.
However, I had a couple of thoughts that I don't want W anywhere near me. I thought that perhaps the kids could be passed by a mutual friend so that I don't have to see W. On the other-hand I want a better MR with her, know I could do it but she's not in the right frame of mind.
The kids went to sleep and I felt horrified at W lies from a couple of years ago that I only knew of a couple of weeks ago. W had given money to her parents towards buying a house when we had needed that money to buy a bigger one for us so the kids would have more room. For the last 2 years I had been stressed trying to save every penny not knowing a lot was tied up in that house. W has now moved into that house.
I also feel sad that I've got a L to put a childcare plan offer to W. She will receive it within the next couple of days.
The kids are totally amazing. I feel so sorry for them. Their mum has been so dreadful.
I'm going to be very busy out and about with the kids for the next couple of days doing some new activities, a couple of major 180s etc,
David,
don't be scared to exchange the kids with her face to face. I know you don't want to see her b/c of the pain it brings but she will only see weakness in this. Show up well-dressed and groomed, recall the great things you have going in your life, and smile when you see your children. Be brief, but polite with her and then smile and leave.
5 years ago my inheritance was taken and we needed that money to buy a bigger home that we needed for the kids sake. W inherited money 4 years ago and lied saying it was less.
I went through years of depression as we didn't quite have enough to buy what we wanted. I wouldn't have done if W had been honest saying how much she had inherited which would have been enough. W let me and kids suffer for years rather than be honest which would have allowed us to move-on together.
2 years-ago she gave the extra money (that I didn't know about) to her parents towards buying a house locally (that she has now moved into).
W must have had that on her mind for years and made excuses to have arguments etc. rather than tell the truth. I only realised all this a couple of weeks ago, and last night realised she could have saved me from years of feeling depressed. The day she left she said to me "You'll never feel able to trust me ever again"... and now I know why.
However, a few months before we split we were looking to get a new house. W had said to me she could get extra money towards it if her parents sold the house, so perhaps she had been seriously thinking of us moving on together at that stage.
At the moment, I'm feeling disappointed that she allowed me to be depressed for years over the issue rather than tell me the truth.
I recommended to someone else but you should watch the “Happiness Advantage” TED talk by Shawn Achor. Your happiness is not nor was not your W’s responsibility. You had control of that then just like you control that now.
In any case, how can you stop dwelling in the past? Sure. She lied. A lot. What does that do for you NOW?
I have had a great couple of nights away with the kids. First time I've taken them away on my own. I went swimming with them for the first time which is a 180 for me.
Odd coincidences keep happening. On arriving home by train the kids noticed W car was parked at the station. Next to it was the car belonging to the woman friend who W kept very secret but who I know W sometimes stays with all night. W would only leave her car if she was planning on drinking alcohol. The friend of W had dumped her husband as W planned to leave me. I've seen the woman at events W & I have been to, and W and her ignore each other. I wouldn't even be surprised if W has OW.
I have had a great couple of nights away with the kids. First time I've taken them away on my own. I went swimming with them for the first time which is a 180 for me.
Glad to hear that. You hare building great memories. The parenting time flys by too fast. ENjoy them while it lasts.
Mine are all in teenager mode. I enjoy them in a different way now.
I have had a great couple of nights away with the kids. First time I've taken them away on my own. I went swimming with them for the first time which is a 180 for me.
Excellent, more of this.
Odd coincidences keep happening. On arriving home by train the kids noticed W car was parked at the station. Next to it was the car belonging to the woman friend who W kept very secret but who I know W sometimes stays with all night. W would only leave her car if she was planning on drinking alcohol. The friend of W had dumped her husband as W planned to leave me. I've seen the woman at events W & I have been to, and W and her ignore each other. I wouldn't even be surprised if W has OW.
So many coincidences... enough David, you are looking way to much into this. Get your focus off her and on those children and you. There is a really happy life waiting for you I can promise you, its there! Please stop letting your W consume your every thought. Does it really matter if your W's car was at the train station? NO, it just made you wonder more and more what she was up to... it doesnt matter.
I need some urgent help and advise. I have had a legal letter sent by my solicitor offering a childcare plan to W. I don't know for certain whether the solicitor has sent it or if W has received it or whether she is ignoring it.
My solicitor suggested not handing the kids to W until the plan has been agreed.
W has text me asking what time she can collect the kids on Monday, no mention of the childcare offer to her.
I don't want to antagonise W. She has mentioned a few times in the last few months that she wants a childcare plan but hasn't followed that up, but has allowed me to have the kids on my own for the last couple of weeks during which time they have become settled back at home with me.
How should I reply to W?
Can anyone please help me on this, I've not seen W for 2 weeks (the longest we have ever gone without seeing each other) and I've got the kids on my own. I'm worried W will only resent me even more if I insist she has to agree to the childcare plan (that she may not have seen) before the kids can go with her.
You need to communicate with your W about the kids openly and clearly. You said that you don't even know if she has received the proposal, let alone had time to go over it with a L. It sure seems like keeping the kids away from her until she agrees to something is HIGHLY controlling. If you are worried about the safety of your kids it might be justified, but short of that it seems inappropriate. Why does the L think it is a good idea not to let the kids go with her?
You need to tell her that you would like to talk about a childcare plan, and then explain what you have drawn up. I don't think doing it with a metaphorical gun to her head (not releasing the kids to her) is a fair way to negotiate.
You need to communicate with your W about the kids openly and clearly. You said that you don't even know if she has received the proposal, let alone had time to go over it with a L. It sure seems like keeping the kids away from her until she agrees to something is HIGHLY controlling. If you are worried about the safety of your kids it might be justified, but short of that it seems inappropriate. Why does the L think it is a good idea not to let the kids go with her?
You need to tell her that you would like to talk about a childcare plan, and then explain what you have drawn up. I don't think doing it with a metaphorical gun to her head (not releasing the kids to her) is a fair way to negotiate.
W left me and took the kids. It was wrong of her to take the kids away from their home and with no childcare plan in place. In addition, she has been extremely controlling of where and when I can see the kids, until letting me have them for a couple of weeks.
The childcare plan being proposed is that the kids are with me on school days. School holidays end in a few days so they need to be in a routinue in the next few days. If W doesn't like it then she would have to take me to court which could take months.
However, if W takes the kids away from home and starts the school routine then it puts me a bad position with custody of the kids and it would then be me having to take her to court which could take months.
In addition, the kids are better off being with me on school days because W gets her parents to do nearly all of the childcare for her anyway plus their house doesn't have some basic home comforts that the kids enjoy at home.
It seems that W wants a D and also wants the home to be sold which would mean me having to live outside of the area and so perhaps lose seeing the kids so much.
It is a horrible situation to be in.
I agree with Davide. By withholding the kids you are guaranteeing the situation will be worse. You would be giving your wife the ultimatum - do what I say or else you won’t have the children. That is controlling. Yes her taking the children wasn’t fair on you but that is done now. You don’t even know if she has received the letter from your solicitor. Maybe check with the solicitor when it was posted out.
How do you know her parents do nearly all the childcare? You aren’t there. What basic home comforts are they missing out on?
You say you wish to have the children on school days and you wife then weekends? Why cannot it be split equally? Surely that would be the starting point? You must want some weekends with the children yourself? So if she doesn’t agree with your plan tomorrow you will refuse her access to the children until it goes to court?
You need to separate your role as a parent and your relationship with W. Don’t put the children through horrible battles - they will know and be aware.
I agree with Davide. By withholding the kids you are guaranteeing the situation will be worse. You would be giving your wife the ultimatum - do what I say or else you won’t have the children. That is controlling. Yes her taking the children wasn’t fair on you but that is done now. You don’t even know if she has received the letter from your solicitor. Maybe check with the solicitor when it was posted out.
I now know that L representing W has been sent the childcare offer and I have sent W a message to let her know. I asked whether she has received it.
How do you know her parents do nearly all the childcare? You aren’t there. What basic home comforts are they missing out on?
W is often at work when the kids finish school so has to get her parents and other parents to do after school childcare. W doesn't cook the kids meals etc. There are no proper beds, sofa, internet etc. at the other house.
The kids normal routine school routine was for me to collect from school, cook for them, homework etc. for a few hours before W came home from work.
You say you wish to have the children on school days and you wife then weekends? Why cannot it be split equally? Surely that would be the starting point? You must want some weekends with the children yourself?
Offer is that W would get 3 out of 4 weekends, plus one evening each week to take the kids out for a meal.
So if she doesn’t agree with your plan tomorrow you will refuse her access to the children until it goes to court?
W is very welcome to see them but shouldn't take them away from home to live elsewhere without a childcare plan agreed. W has been saying she wants a childcare plan and she does want me to collect the kids from school etc. so hopefully she will agree to it. However, the worry is that she will not agree, take the kids again and try to get them established at her house and then I could lose a case. I could then lose the kids and the home.
Oh wow tonight was weird.
W had been saying she was going to take the kids tonight. My L got onto her L to say there needed to be an agreed plan in place beforehand.
W and FIL arrived. They seemed surprised that I had a relative with me as a witness. W didn't ask to take the kids. Instead she helped get them ready for bed. W & I read books with them. W was acting over the top too happy. She couldn't look me in the eyes and there was a massive emotional wall from her side. I felt very detached yet a bit sorry for her.
W told the kids that she is coming back to see them tomorrow evening right after she finishes work. W hadn't even asked me if that was OK. I asked her why and she said because the kids are upset. They were not upset. I said we were going for a meal tomorrow. She said she would be coming too (invited herself). I said it would be during the day when she is at work.
W took each of the kids into the bathroom and locked the door. She quizzed them.
W came into my (our) bedroom and I asked her if she agreed with the childcare plan. She wouldn't say either way but said something about taking the kids back home to live. I said "this is their home". She asked me to turn the music down as she couldn't hear me clearly. The music was barely audible and it was at the far side behind us. I then asked if she was recording us. She then acted weird and leaned towards me (I'm certain she's recording) and crossed over her fingers. I noticed she's done that same thing with her fingers in the past when I'd asked if she had been seeing anyone. I think it's like when a child crosses their fingers when they lie.
It seems obvious that W is incredibly emotionally charged and putting on a happy act. I feel nervous about what she is capable of doing as she is so unbalanced. I don't think there's any chance of MR and the more she acts the way she does the more I feel detached.
I waited to collect the kids from school but was then told that W had snatched them and W is to take me to court within the next week for the kids to live with her all the time.
Prior to then I had followed legal advice and my solicitor put a childcare access plan to W but now W is using that against me claiming it is controlling to want to have a plan in place of when I would get to see my kids. W even claims the kids are frightened of me. I am so, so shocked because the kids and I are sooooo sooooo close.
I have been so busy in the last couple of weeks with GAL that I had largely ruled-out a MR until such time as W had changed but now having to deal with this I could lose my kids, my home, everything, but there is still part of me that knows I'm a good person at heart and have done my very best.
I waited to collect the kids from school but was then told that W had snatched them and W is to take me to court within the next week for the kids to live with her all the time.
Prior to then I had followed legal advice and my solicitor put a childcare access plan to W but now W is using that against me claiming it is controlling to want to have a plan in place of when I would get to see my kids. W even claims the kids are frightened of me. I am so, so shocked because the kids and I are sooooo sooooo close.
I have been so busy in the last couple of weeks with GAL that I had largely ruled-out a MR until such time as W had changed but now having to deal with this I could lose my kids, my home, everything, but there is still part of me that knows I'm a good person at heart and have done my very best.
Is this what it needs for reality to really to hit home?
Make no mistake about it, the situation you are in now is what you have contributed to with your attitude towards yourself and this desperate hope for recon.
Everybody is entitled to their opinion - as long as the end goal is in the best interests of the poster.
Since the start I have advised you of the stance to take - and warned you it would go this way. I believe I said stop leaving the door open for this person while she gets her playing pieces in position. And lo and behold that is happening.
Now we are staring at the possibility of you losing kids, house and having to move out of the area - this is because you gave her the power and you were in a reaction mode - rather than taking total control of your actions - basically because you hoped for recon and didn't want to upset her and push her closer to D by angering her.
Certain people on this board have advised to keep the door open for this women and not file for divorce, when in reality this isnt a marriage, its an example of a guy getting took to the cleaners because he is trying to be a nice guy in hope of a recon rather than facing the reality that if you give her room to breath, she will slowly take everything she needs and leave you in a heap on the ground.
Battle lines need to be drawn and you need to stop being a good person and start being a man in control - because this situation will continue to deteriorate until you do.
But you have to take responsibility for this unhealthy belief that wife will change - its not happening.
Oh wow be shocked by the latest... under my care the my kids created some pictures for someone dying in hospital from cancer for which the person is very grateful. W is demanding the pictures are taken from the hospital and sent to W. How low can someone go?
Benito, I now realise that W prepared months before she left to ensure the result will be inevitable.
I am surprised at how much I've detached from W. GAL with the kids helped so much. I realise that for a W to leave and take the kids is so, so much harder than if a W has left without them.
W behaviour going so low has also put me off her a lot. I don't recognise her as the same lovely and honest person I loved for most of my life, and realise W and her parents have been living a lie deceiving me for 2 years.
However, when W visited a few nights ago with her controlling very calculated father he said to me that W and I should go away for counciling and he still had some hope. I started to fall for it and said I knew he had been deceiving me for a couple of years but I'd try to put that in the past, but it suddenly became crystal clear it was all lies and that her father is pulling W strings directing everything trying to get me to say certain things that were likely being recorded. I asked them to leave.
Going to court tomorrow.
W is claiming I wasn't the kids main carer (I was a SAHD for years) and that the kids are frightened of me which is absurd and besides W just let me have the kids for 2 weeks on my own and we had a fab time.
W is also telling lies about when she visited last week. I recorded it for proof but I don't know if I can use it as evidence.
A problem is that cases are only based upon 'balance of probabilities' and W has told lots of lies.
The case has been given about 30 mins.
Hi David
Hoping it went well at court for you.
I went to court yesterday. W and I sat directly opposite each other at a table. She looked very, very sad. She couldn't look at me at all and we never spoke. I felt detached.
I was advised that it was likely that I'd only get to see the kids for a couple of meals per week for many months whilst reports were done on W claims. W legal person was then made aware that I had evidence to show W claims were untrue. W then withdrew her lies. I got 50/50 of the kids for the next few months.
However, I woke in the night feeling very sorry for her. She must love the kids as much as I do. She used to be a lovely honest person and now she looks so sad and telling lies.
Today, a young woman less than half my age sat next to me on a bench at a bus stop and started a conversation with me. She was lovely and inteligent telling me what course she was studying etc. We said goodbye and she tuned and walked towards me gave me massive hug and a kiss on the cheek. I told her that she had made my day. She then asked how she could contact me. I was stunned. I didn't give her my phone number. I doubt I will ever meet her again but she was like a ray of sunshine.
I’m happy for you David. Your last post is a good one. Way to go man!
Everybody is entitled to their opinion - as long as the end goal is in the best interests of the poster.
Since the start I have advised you of the stance to take - and warned you it would go this way. I believe I said stop leaving the door open for this person while she gets her playing pieces in position. And lo and behold that is happening.
Now we are staring at the possibility of you losing kids, house and having to move out of the area - this is because you gave her the power and you were in a reaction mode - rather than taking total control of your actions - basically because you hoped for recon and didn't want to upset her and push her closer to D by angering her.
Certain people on this board have advised to keep the door open for this women and not file for divorce, when in reality this isnt a marriage, its an example of a guy getting took to the cleaners because he is trying to be a nice guy in hope of a recon rather than facing the reality that if you give her room to breath, she will slowly take everything she needs and leave you in a heap on the ground.
I loosely assume that you are talking about me here. If youre not, then I apologize for any misunderstanding.
NOWHERE have I said that David should be a "nice guy" waiting for a chance to possibly recon. If thats what you have taken from my advice, then I feel like I am doing a very bad job of communicating.
My point was and is that divorce is just a legal agreement to a relationship status. Whether or not you "FILE FOR DIVORCE" doesnt really matter to me. It isnt something to be afraid of. It isnt something to use as a weapon. It just IS. It's as meaningless in the grand scheme of things as your relationship status on facebook.
What Im trying to say is that filing for divorce isnt and shouldnt be the trigger for detachment. It shouldnt be done as a means to "Wake up your WW." It should be done because you are finished with the marriage and moving on with your life. From David's posts, it was and is clear that he is NOT finished with the idea of a relationship with W. So, I still say, what is the benefit of divorce? If there is one financially, custodially (if that a word :lol:), or some other way, then sure, go ahead and file. Protect yourself and your assets.
Hoping that someday there might be reconciliation is NOT what has gotten David into this situation. I hope that someday I win the lottery. Does that mean Im going to be bankrupt later? I say no. I say living your life like that is going to happen or not planning in case that doesnt happen is more to blame. I strongly disagree that hope is the issue.
you need to stop being a good person and start being a man in control - because this situation will continue to deteriorate until you do.
This makes NO sense to me. What does being a 'good person' have to do with being in control of your domain. David can and should certainly strive to be a good person. That doesnt mean he needs to let himself be bent over a barrel and take whatever W is willing to give.
That’s fantastic news David, I’m really pleased for you.
I had my first joint mediation session with my W on Monday. It’s amazing how she unashamedly can sit in a room a lie.
We made a bit of progress discussing childcare arrangements, next up is financial disclosure.
What a horrible process this is.
Good luck moving forward
FIL (who is very influential on W and they live together) said last week that he'd noticed my changes and said it seemed like a religious wakening. He suggested to me last week that W & I should do some counselling and to give it time. He could just be saying that and playing for time to hide more money.
Given that W is incredibly stubborn and wouldn't make the first move even if she wanted to do so, should I suggest it to W and say it was her father's idea?
Don’t make excuses for her. Plenty of WWs are “incredibly stubborn”.
If you approach her it undoes all of your work.
Keep doing what is working.
Congrats David, so glad to hear you went to bat for your kids and it paid off! Well done!!!! Very proud of you brother!! And check you out, getting flirted with by young women! Love it!
Given that W is incredibly stubborn and wouldn't make the first move even if she wanted to do so, should I suggest it to W and say it was her father's idea?
I think the advice you got is pretty clear on this, but let me try to get you thinking. Knowing what you know about DB'ing, if someone else posted this in their thread how would you respond?
Thanks all for your advice. My dilemma is this... even if W was willing to re-consider MR:
A) The day after W left she said to me "You'll never be able to trust me ever again". I know enough about us to know that she really will think that, so she will think there's no point in her even trying. However, I would be willing to see what's possible.
B) W won't want to admit anything to me that could hurt me (and there could be more that I don't yet know about).
C) Her pride and ego will get in the way because she likes everyone to think how wonderful she is.
D) W really is incredibly stubborn and always has been. She doesn't say 'sorry' unless prompted.
E) W has used our problems to gain attention and sympathy.
F) W has used our problems as an excuse for failing exams and work issues.
G) W reacts badly to anything that could be seen as any kind as a personal criticism.
H) W lives with her parents who are very supportive of her (but they have both said they have noticed good changes in me).
I) W won't talk about anything MR related. I've not approached the subject for a couple of months or so.
W looked so unhappy at the court case, withdrew her claims against me because I was willing to show the court they were exaggerated, twisted taken out of context, and BS. W couldn't look at me, and we got a 50/50 deal for the kids. That 'might' be a bit of a wake-up call for her. If it is, W is unlikely to say to me because of the above reasons. I know W well enough that she needs a door left open. That's my logic behind saying that her father had suggested counselling.
Amazing that other than point H) I bet 99.9% of the WS described in this forum do the exact same thing. There must be a chemical released in a cheating spouses brain that causes these exact same actions in them.
Thanks all for your advice. My dilemma is this... even if W was willing to re-consider MR:
A) The day after W left she said to me "You'll never be able to trust me ever again". I know enough about us to know that she really will think that, so she will think there's no point in her even trying. However, I would be willing to see what's possible.
B) W won't want to admit anything to me that could hurt me (and there could be more that I don't yet know about).
C) Her pride and ego will get in the way because she likes everyone to think how wonderful she is.
D) W really is incredibly stubborn and always has been. She doesn't say 'sorry' unless prompted.
E) W has used our problems to gain attention and sympathy.
F) W has used our problems as an excuse for failing exams and work issues.
G) W reacts badly to anything that could be seen as any kind as a personal criticism.
H) W lives with her parents who are very supportive of her (but they have both said they have noticed good changes in me).
I) W won't talk about anything MR related. I've not approached the subject for a couple of months or so.
.....so?
Why would you want to be in a relationship with someone that isnt willing to fight for you?
She walked out the door and split up your family and took your kids away from you....why should she get a free pass back just because 'its hard for her'?
Look, if she wants to R with you, she needs to make that decision. No amount of counseling is going to 'convince her' to change her mind. This is your chance to change the status quo and forge a new relationship. Why would you squander it and move back into old habits?
Stop trying to FIX her problems. Focus on you and your kids as youve been doing. Let her work on herself too.]
I have had a bit more info from the court case:
"The Judge was able to point out that both of you were able to say positive things about each other’s parenting and the kids relationships with both, which was something that could be built upon (I didn't anything like that). He also emphasised how important it would be for the kids to spend quality time with both. This seemed to have a very persuasive effect on W and to give her credit she then did make very fair proposals based on an equal shared care plan. This was far better than we had anticipated, as the Court could not have made this order without consent from you both."
I'm not sure what to take from that, if anything, because when W first left 4 months ago she said she would agree to a 50/50 deal (believe nothing that they say...) but she then heavily controlled and restricted me seeing the kids.
I then calmly and firmly said I'd had enough of being messed around and then surprisingly W let me have them for 2 weeks.
W then made a statement in advance of the court hearing claiming bad things. At the court case, W offered very limited childcare access. W was then made aware that I would be making counter-claims against her and I had evidence to show her claims were not true. The Judge and L teams spoke in private. W then backed-down to withdraw all of her claims against me, must have said I was a good parent, and she offered 50/50.
4 months since BD and all I have is an agreement that W said she would make when she left. There's been no MR talk for nearly 3 months, no talk from either of us except formalities about the kids, and now we will only meet once per week in a public place to exchange the kids. I can't see any MR progress other than I look and feel better than I did.
When progress is made on MR, you will know. You won't have to be looking for it.
And that's crazy that all the hoops you had to go through and fight her on just to get her to "offer" you what is fair. Sorry David.
How are you feeling about everything? Getting better, not worrying as much? How's work and GAL?
Ovrrnbw,
Yep, I've been through a police questioning as W tried to get me into trouble so she would get a better chance to get the kids, she failed with that and then said she hoped we could put that in the past. Then a few months later she has made the same claims again (and more) in a custody court case but then withdrew all her claims to offer the 50/50 deal.
It's ironic because she only did all that to get the kids because I was in such a strong position. If I hadn't been a SAHD then perhaps she wouldn't have gone to so much time and effort plotting against me.
I only learned of the court case on Friday evening and it happened on Tuesday. Within that time I had to write my views on W claims (there were a lot of the them), deal with my solicitor (who doesn't work weekends), get the solicitor to find a barrister at very short notice, find the money to pay in advance, and get myself to court etc. Then deal with going through it. I then stayed a night with a relative. I hardly slept during that time so I've since tried to rest and get things sorted for the kids arriving back on Sunday.
I genuinely think W will be thinking that I would never have her back and so she wouldn't mention it even if she considered it.
I have to concentrate all efforts on the kids for the next 3 months until the case is heard again. W will be looking for any mistake.
In about a week, I'm going to start looking into the financial disclosure process (I already have the L get the letter ready to send to W). From that I should be able to see when W started taking money planning for D.
I had been feeling detached from W but today I really missed our family being together.
Met W today to exchange the kids. She didn't look so angry, stressed and evasive. I said to her that I was sorry that it had got to this, I think there has been some misunderstandings on both sides due to bad communication and that we should talk to clear them up and sort things out. She agreed. It seems her parents have now left the house, which could be a good thing as W will now have to do everything for herself, get some space, and lose their persuasive backing.
I said to her that I was sorry that it had got to this, I think there has been some misunderstandings on both sides due to bad communication and that we should talk to clear them up and sort things out. She agreed.
I've just realised that means nothing and could even have sounded to her like I wanted to get things sorted for a D.
I could do with some advice... I took the kids to and from school today. A few parents said that W has been saying things about me and they call me a liar as soon as I try to explain anything. W never used to have any interest in those people and they were friends of mine who I met at the school most days. Since BD, W has befriended them and meets them for days-out with the children and is obviously doing so to turn those people against me as they are key witnesses that I've been the main carer for the kids for years.
How do I best handle the situation, do I say to W that for the sake of the kids can she please stop involving parents of the kids school friends in our personal life?
I have a dilema...
WAS/WW accused me of being controlling (I was being a responsible parent and supportive husband... W had become the complete opposite). W had also accused me of looking for excuses to talk to her - which isn't true, and besides we have to communicate at times because we have kids and only speak about them.
The kids don't call W and she thinks that is down to me being controlling. I did a 180 last night and I got the kids to call W and leave a phone message. W later sent me a text to say she hadn't received it (yeah right) . W called early this morning (a first) to speak to the kids. I just answered the phone and gave it to the kids.
However, me asking the kids to call their mum (so that I'm not seen as controlling), wouldn't that be cake eating for W?
Your only dilema at this stage is keep posting about your wife all the time.
Your only dilema at this stage is keep posting about your wife all the time.
I'm seeking advice as I'm trying to do the right thing with interactions with W and we have 2 little kids. So is asking the kids to phone their mum (so that I'm not seen as controlling), wouldn't that be cake eating for W?
how old are the kids? If they are old enough to make up their mind(say 7 or 8 or older?) then maybe just remind them periodically that they can. If they are like 4 or 5, then I would say that you and W should arrange a standard time maybe once a week or something to talk.
I wouldn’t force them to just randomly call her as a response to her calling you “controlling”.
Thanks. They are around those ages. W had given them a mobile phone and said not to tell me they have it, and to use it in secret when with me. They told me and I looked after it and gave it to them when they wanted to make a call because I think they are too young to have one and be using it a lot. One of the kids said they missed their mum so I suggested they called - and as a result it shows W that I'm not being controlling stopping them.
W is obsessed with claiming that I'm controlling when I thought I was being a responsible adult.
To me, it IS controlling if you are just establishing different rules than W and not discussing with her. I think it’s reasonable to discuss the phone usage expectation with w rather than just “taking it” from your kids. W have it to them to use at your house to talk with her. So you taking it is changing her rule through them rather than being united with her about the expectations. You shouldn’t be communicating these kinds of decisions through the kids if your expectations differ from w’s.
When the kids have/had free reign with the phone at your house, did you cap time with it? Did you set rules/guidelines/expectations? Or is it YOU who is doling it out like a gatekeeper?
No other parents I know of let their kids have their own mobile phone at that age and it had been our established policy too.
However, W gave one a mobile phone to keep secret from me and to secretly use it to contact her. Kid was distraught at being put in that position by W. I thanked the kids for telling me and I said there was no need to keep it a secret.
I showed them how to use it. They had no interest at all in calling their Mum or anyone else. They only used it for text messages. I had it in between times to charge it up for them and so they didn't use it during meal times, at school (where kids phones are banned), during homework or bedtime. They don't call W and she accuses me of being controlling. One said they missed W so I suggested they called her. I didn't speak to W then or the next day when she called the main house phone to speak to them in the morning before school. I just answered and gave the phone to the kids.
I wondered whether giving-in over the kids having a mobile phone (W has got her own way over that) and encouraging the kids to contact their mum would be seen as W cake eating?
How can contact with a parent be cake eating? Do you speak to the kids when they are with her? Discuss with your wife about the phone. You need to keep your relationship with your wife separate to the kids.
How can contact with a parent be cake eating? Do you speak to the kids when they are with her? Discuss with your wife about the phone. You need to keep your relationship with your wife separate to the kids.
In 4 months, W has only let me speak to one of the kids once via phone. At least with W giving one a mobile I can now text one of them.
W has sent a message to say she wants to close our joint account. It is used to pay household bills, mortgage, food for the kids. The house is in joint names and we have 50/50 for the kids but she hasn't proposed contributing anything and she earns a lot.
W has sent a message to say she wants to close our joint account. It is used to pay household bills, mortgage, food for the kids. The house is in joint names and we have 50/50 for the kids but she hasn't proposed contributing anything and she earns a lot.
Follow the advise given by your solicitor and a financial adviser and get all your ducks in order.
Forget about any Recon or basing your actions to please STBXW.
Whether you want this Relationship or not is irrelevant now. Gain some control and certainty rather than this constant reactive behavior that has been a common feature of all your posts/updates from the beginning of your time here.
Wife said this... Wife said that.. is irrelevant at this stage. This is a very important stage of this process that needs your full attention as I assume you cant afford to live alone in your current location, so you need to start looking at difference locations etc.. to prepare for what is coming.
Good luck
Hi Benito,
W contribution is paid into the joint account and she is now wanting to close it with no provision in place for the kids and home.
It was thought best to get the formal custody issue out there first. Getting a 50/50 deal should mean W still having to continue to contribute something.
I have sent W a message that my legal advice is that she should now send full financial disclosure to my solicitor to make an agreement. If she does that then it will show the money she was taking. From that I should be able to calculate a date if/when I may have to file for D.
Lately I've been feeling detached as W looks in such a negative state towards me that there's no way I'd consider any move towards her because it would be rejected anyway.
However, did the exchange of kids today and W looked almost normal so it threw me a bit. I looked smart, happy and joked with the kids that W laughed about. I went off into a shop with the kids, then W followed us. W then sent a few messages and I've not responded as they were not questions. One was to say she'd speak to her legal person about the financial disclosure that my solicitor wants. W won't want me to know those details so I expect W will file for D if she has to do that because it will show what she's done and it's required for D anyway.
My main fear is losing the house in a D because I can't find the extra 120k I'd need to buy W out. If I keep the house then I could keep 50/50 custody kids. If I lose the house then I won't be able to afford to live in the local area and so I'll lose the kids. Anyone have 120K to save my family?
My main fear is losing the house in a D because I can't find the extra 120k I'd need to buy W out. If I keep the house then I could keep 50/50 custody kids. If I lose the house then I won't be able to afford to live in the local area and so I'll lose the kids. Anyone have 120K to save my family?
Your family isn't your house or money it's a relationship with a person who respects you and trusts you and loves you.
You use the word family but you mean everything that comes with it... house and money and stability.
Just because you act like a good man or husband does not mean your romantic relationship all that is built on will actually work. Which it hasnt. The relationship is toxic and needs to end.
Im really confused why you keep referring to saving the whole package i.e. home etc.. when the person who makes that possible doesn't want a relationship anymore. Its a fantasy you keep telling yourself to avoid the harsh reality of the situation.
From the start i have said in my opinion you are barking up the wrong tree and i still havent changed my opinion.
If you can't afford the house you need look outside the area. Those are the facts. You can either deal with those or continue to hope that an angel is going to come down, magically repair everything and make someone fall back in love with you and want to erase the past. Its not going to happen unfortunately.
Bit by bit this is going to start taking things from you unless you get your game face on and quick.
"If you can't afford the house you need look outside the area. Those are the facts."
My family is now the kids and I. The dilemma is that if I move outside of the area then I will lose 50/50 of the kids. That's the problem I'm going to be faced with. The only solution is to find enough money to afford to buy W share of the house but I'm short of the money. The only other hope is that I might be able to secure the house until the kids leave school in a D settlement and then W can have her share of the equity.
So either way its the same problem..
Where you getting this 120k from?
No other parents I know of let their kids have their own mobile phone at that age and it had been our established policy too.
So is this something you object to? If so, then have a discussion with W.
Frankly, if it stays at home and is only being used to contact her (or you when its at her house), then it seems reasonable?
However, W gave one a mobile phone to keep secret from me and to secretly use it to contact her. Kid was distraught at being put in that position by W.
....Really? This seems like a bit of a stretch. But in any case, I agree that it shouldnt be hidden.
I showed them how to use it. They had no interest at all in calling their Mum or anyone else. They only used it for text messages. I had it in between times to charge it up for them and so they didn't use it during meal times, at school (where kids phones are banned), during homework or bedtime . They don't call W and she accuses me of being controlling. One said they missed W so I suggested they called her. I didn't speak to W then or the next day when she called the main house phone to speak to them in the morning before school. I just answered and gave the phone to the kids.
The part I bolded is what I think you need to consider. Why are you taking it from them? You say to 'charge it', but I have to imagine they could charge it in their own rooms. Then you say you are limiting when they can use it. Which I get. But why do you need to TAKE it? That puts you in charge of their usage of it. Why cant you use it to help them learn responsibility? Let them be in charge of following the rules of the house.
I wondered whether giving-in over the kids having a mobile phone (W has got her own way over that) and encouraging the kids to contact their mum would be seen as W cake eating?
No. I dont think so. As long as you have an agreement about what is reasonable. If the kids were texting her 24/7 and interrupting your meal times and bedtimes every day, then sure, that seems like cake eating. But to have regular communication with their mom should be encouraged, I think. Why would you want to stifle those relationships?
Amoafwl, I'd never seen kid1 so distraught over anything before.
I went to the school this morning with the kids... and W turned up. I said to W that the phone is available for kid1 to use but they don't bother with it much. Kid2 then said they wanted a phone too. W said she (W) would have to speak to Daddy (me) about it... that is prob W talk for "No, you are too young" and for W to part-blame me.
I'm keeping busy - looking after kids on your own ensures that. I'm feeling good a lot more of the time.
A couple of mutual friends had been taking the side of W, do a lot with her each week, and were being bad towards me. Today they started talking to me again. Interestingly, W has a 'secret friend' and she was very closely watching us talking. It is weird that the 3 closest women friends of W have kids in the same small school but 2 of them don't know the other 1 is also a very close friend of W and stands only feet away most days. W and secret friend act like they don't know one another. It's very odd. My gut feeling is that secret friend knew in advance that W would be leaving but the other 2 certainly didn't.
More than 4 months gone since BD and I've not seen any MR progress apart from to me. It has been heartless, deceptive, brutal torture from W.
I've just had a call from the bank to say that W has taken the joint mortgage from the joint account into her own account and frozen the joint account.
I'm confused on the housing issue. You say you have to come up with 120k to buy her out of the house. What about her? Can she afford to buy you out? If so, wouldn't that be 120k in your pocket, that you could use to get housing? If not, then it seems neither one of you can afford to buy the other out, and the house will be sold as part of the divorce settlement, and you'll split the proceeds, with both of you then needing housing, and you use the courts at that point to make sure it's in the same city or town.
I'm positive I've never heard of anyone losing custody of their children because they can't buy their spouse out of their home. With kids, it isn't pay to play. I see that you have a solicitor/attorney -- is this really what you're being told? Is it possible you're misunderstanding the advice you're being given?
Four months is not much time, by the way. Certainly not in terms of a wayward "seeing the light" and coming back to your relationship. The bigger question is why, four months on, you are you still pursuing her and giving her so much headspace?
Hi JRuss,
I couldn't afford to live locally with only half the proceeds from the house, it is a small place and the house is close to the school, and so I would lose my 50/50 of the kids if I lose the house. That is why I have to save the house.
W doesn't need her half of the money from the sale of the house. 2 years ago W gave some money to her parents to help buy a bigger house locally. I hadn't known W had given them money towards that (seems typical of a WAW to plan 2 years ahead), there's no mortgage on that house, and she's now living in it.
I need 180k but can only raise about 60k of that.
If she doesn't need it, can you just give her the 60k and make payments to her on the rest?
If she doesn't need it, can you just give her the 60k and make payments to her on the rest?
Well, she would have to agree to that. Or the judge would have to mandate that, I think.
But Im curious why you couldn't refinance. Lets assume your house is 500K (just to have a number. I don't think the value of the house really matters given the numbers you mentioned above^^^). At least in the US, they would let you borrow up to 80% of the value. So, you could apply for an equity loan up to 400K - what you still owe (in this example, 140K) making a grand total of 260K of credit available. Of course, youd have to pay back the bank and add some interest. And my guess is that you would need to refinance the house into your name first before you could take a loan out like this under just your name.
Another option would be to sell your home. Again, lets assume 500K. Youd each walk away with 180K. I would again think you could at least put a down payment on a pretty nice house with that chunk of money.
Either way, you are going to acquire some debt, sure. And of course, I have no idea what the housing condition/market is like in the UK. Im just going by US info.
But my point is that I wonder if there are other solutions. What recommendation does your lawyer have? How about the bank? Or a real estate agent?
It will be a challenge just to afford the existing bills on my own so I can't refinance. There are no suitable lower cost properties in the area and it's a village. The kids already share a bedroom. I could get together 60K so I'm about 120k short. If I lose the house then I'll be forced to move away from the area and so lose 50/50 of my kids. Every moment with my kids is so precious particularly as it looks like I'm not going to be able to afford to save the home and so I'll lose them.
It will be a challenge just to afford the existing bills on my own so I can't refinance. There are no suitable lower cost properties in the area and it's a village. The kids already share a bedroom. I could get together 60K so I'm about 120k short. If I lose the house then I'll be forced to move away from the area and so lose 50/50 of my kids. Every moment with my kids is so precious particularly as it looks like I'm not going to be able to afford to save the home and so I'll lose them.
Hi David,
The confusing part for me is that you still wish for a recon with this women.
Why is that?
I want my family together, finances, keep my home, she's gorgeous, we are good together in the sack, I think I could forgive her, I had wanted to leave to get a break, I'm now a better me.
I can understand that she must have gone off me more than 2 years ago when one of my parents died and I was depressed so she must have made plans (secretly gave money to her parents to help buy a house that has stood empty) to leave but didn't. It then seemed to me she wasn't fully committed (I now know I was right as there was a house waiting for her to move into - she must have had that in the back of her mind all the time) and so she made me more depressed with her negativity, and so I became even less attractive. She must have felt guilty so tried to start arguments. W genuinely did want us to have a bigger house until about months before she left. W then became under a lot of stress and simply couldn't cope. W then wanted to leave saying anything to try to get the kids and hide money. I now get what has happened - how it has snowballed.
I'm sure W feels guilty and afraid of facing what she has done. She now knows she isn't up to running a home, being a mum, working, exams, being in a serious relationship etc. all at the same time. If we got it all out in the open with a councillor then I think it 'might' be possible to have a new relationship and make the lifestyle changes required. I know I could forgive her and I'm now better than ever, so the problem wouldn't be me. However, I can't see that happening as W is sooooo stubborn, has gone so far, and she now has her parents doing everything for her.
However, I might have to start D soon to protect myself.
Today, I'm having a first session with a new councillor.
I want my family together, finances, keep my home, she's gorgeous, we are good together in the sack, I think I could forgive her, I had wanted to leave to get a break, I'm now a better me.
I can understand that she must have gone off me more than 2 years ago when one of my parents died and I was depressed so she must have made plans (secretly gave money to her parents to help buy a house that has stood empty) to leave but didn't. It then seemed to me she wasn't fully committed (I now know I was right as there was a house waiting for her to move into - she must have had that in the back of her mind all the time) and so she made me more depressed with her negativity, and so I became even less attractive. She must have felt guilty so tried to start arguments. W genuinely did want us to have a bigger house until about months before she left. W then became under a lot of stress and simply couldn't cope. W then wanted to leave saying anything to try to get the kids and hide money. I now get what has happened - how it has snowballed.
I'm sure W feels guilty and afraid of facing what she has done. She now knows she isn't up to running a home, being a mum, working, exams, being in a serious relationship etc. all at the same time. If we got it all out in the open with a councillor then I think it 'might' be possible to have a new relationship and make the lifestyle changes required. I know I could forgive her and I'm now better than ever, so the problem wouldn't be me. However, I can't see that happening as W is sooooo stubborn, has gone so far, and she now has her parents doing everything for her.
However, I might have to start D soon to protect myself.
Today, I'm having a first session with a new councillor.
Hi David,
Have you ever considered that the lens in which you view the world might not be the most accurate reflection of reality?
It seems you are so afraid of losing everything - that you don't seem to understand that she doesn't want a life with you anymore. You keep repeating you are a better you. And? It changes nothing for her. Its for you.. and you only. This mindset and way of framing things the way you do is completely the opposite of what you should be doing and the journey you need to take before her coming back would even be a possibility.
You need to accept this is truly over.
Don't say you are; because that last post says to me you are not.
Im only here helping; my life is thankfully going well, (and i didn't drift away from this board after recon like most do) but I keep getting drawn to read your sitch because I want to help you but your a million miles off at the minute, and I think you are so desperate not to lose your family etc that your willing to be treated like sh*t from someone who clearly does not respect you. Its not healthy. But you take it because its better than the alternative of having to move out of town etc..
Your not living at the minute - your reacting to fear.
Benito,
I was fed-up with W and I had packed things to leave. W told me to stay but the thing that stopped me from leaving was that I couldn't leave the kids too. W left days later (but I now realise that she had planned to leave for months and explains why she had been so bad towards me) and took the kids.
I am afraid of losing the kids. I am afraid of their feelings being hurt. I've been a SAHD and we are extremely close. I don't want to be a Dad that doesn't see their kids much. My Dad wasn't around for me much. I want to be there available for them every day. I want the kids to have their mum and dad together as a proper family. I don't want the kids to lose their home.
"your willing to be treated like sh*t from someone who clearly does not respect you"
Before W left I told her that I wasn't willing to put up with her behaviour, that I wanted a soul-mate. After she left I've been to court to stand up to her over access to see the kids. W now seems to resent me even more.
If she has as much money as you suggest, and if you've always with her agreement been the SAHD, then your lawyer should be able to file for whatever the UK analog for child support and transitional alimony is. The court will look to the children's best interest. Losing their primary caregiver won't be in their best interest, and a court can order that the more financially secure spouse support the other so that that result doesn't happen.
I get the feeling you don't fully grasp your legal rights. It will make you feel better to get that understanding. From there, you can build on a strong(er) emotional base. It will understandably be hard to make self-improvements if you're worried about a roof over your head, losing your children, etc.
Hi JRuss,
In the UK people pay child maintenance based upon income. W is hiding savings. I was the primary carer until W took the kids. We now have a 50/50 deal so W would only have to pay me about £150 - 200 pm.
My legal advice is that the family home would be sold in a divorce and I'd get half of the proceeds, plus some of W pension, and I'd be expected to work more (which would mean me paying for childcare for the kids rather than me looking after them and I'd still not earn enough to buy W half of the house, plus W would be entitled to some of my wages).
Consider too that W is already telling the kids what to say to the court whereas I'm not as I'm being honest about everything and I think it is terrible of W to pressurise the kids like that, so I could lose the 50/50 in a few months time.
I've probably done everything wrong today... did the kids exchange which is now in a public place. W looked very tried, older and made no effort to look nice. W said that she'd given youngest kid a phone. I said that she had told youngest that we would both discuss it beforehand. W denied that conversation and then she twisted it. I said that it was typical of her to be dishonest, rewrite and twist everything.
One of the kids was upset being passed between us. I suggested going to a cafe to do it and W agreed. I said to W it was starting to have a bad impact upon the kids and this was her choice. W asked me about a couple of GAL things the kids said to her I'd been doing and she was surprised as they were things I wouldn't normally have done. We then had some laughs. I then suggested that we went to a restaurant and W agreed. W drove us there. We passed a lady, W made a comment about her and I said I see her around a lot in the nearest city (W may now realise I'm getting out a lot and not know why). We had some more laughs. W & I talked on our own at one stage. I said that I had a good idea as to what went wrong but I can only see my point of view and it might not be the same as hers. I said I realise that she is probably too afraid to discus her point of view and so I'd had to join the dots and may have the wrong picture due to bad communication. She said she understood.
I then noticed W kept looking at me in a warmer way. W passed a drink to me to taste etc. Her body language was the most open since she had left, whereas I was now the one with the crossed arms etc.
W denies taking money despite me saying that I have the evidence. I had mentioned it in a humorous way when it was time to pay the bill. That smirking, untrustworthy side to her is still obvious at times. It's like a game to her at times. I can see it clearly now and it puts me off her. I said that she used to be lovely and that I now felt sorry for her as I thought she was better than what she has been doing. I said that I tried to understand what she is going through and I had looked on the internet to search for rewriting martial history and a lot of it made sense and that what she is going through is a known predicatable thing. W seemed genuinely interested and said she would look into that. I said I just had to get some things off my chest and 'the next time we meet, if we ever do again, I won't talk about any R issues'. W said she understood. W said she didn't want to talk about the past as there was nothing to say. I said she probably has the future planned. W claimed that she doesn't really know what she's doing and anything could happen in the future. W later mentioned some local houses for sale and how much they cost so she must be looking at houses for sale. In the restaurant was a new friend of mine that W wasn't aware of and we said hello. I said to W that I'd been getting advice from him. W said that was nice. I said you wouldn't say that if you knew what advice he'd given me.
I probably made lots of mistakes but I guess there was some progress in that we went for a meal together on our own as a family for the first time in months, had some laughs, I was fearless at losing W, I called out some disrespectful BS, but I also showed some understanding about the way she is. There's no chance of R whilst she is still in that cunning, truth bending, alien state of mind that is a long way below the person I thought she used to be.
I said to W it was starting to have a bad impact upon the kids and this was her choice.
Pressure. Stop with this. You really want her to come back because of the kids? Plus you come off as weak.
W & I talked on our own at one stage. I said that I had a good idea as to what went wrong but I can only see my point of view and it might not be the same as hers. I said I realise that she is probably too afraid to discus her point of view and so I'd had to join the dots and may have the wrong picture due to bad communication.
Pursuit. Again, she knows you're still in this thing.
I then noticed W kept looking at me in a warmer way. W passed a drink to me to taste etc. Her body language was the most open since she had left, whereas I was now the one with the crossed arms etc.
W denies taking money despite me saying that I have the evidence.
So things are better, but she still lies to your face?
I said that she used to be lovely and that I now felt sorry for her as I thought she was better than what she has been doing. I said that I tried to understand what she is going through and I had looked on the internet to search for rewriting martial history and a lot of it made sense and that what she is going through is a known predicatable thing. W seemed genuinely interested and said she would look into that.
So you told her she looks like crap? And now the two of you are going to do a joint psychoanalysis to fix your sitch?
I said to W that I'd been getting advice from him. W said that was nice. I said you wouldn't say that if you knew what advice he'd given me.
I heard Michele on a podcast with Neil Sattin. She talked about a scenario in her marriage where she was frustrated with her H after talking to her daughter. She was getting ready to lay into her H, but had a minute to think. Michele said to herself "Is the thing I'm about to say going to bring me closer to my H or further away?" So she did a 180 from the normal, reactionary behavior there and had a positive impact on her marriage. Did your words bring your closer? Was that why you said you wouldn't say he's nice if you knew the advice the friend is giving? What was the point?
Have you given your W a true incentive to change? Or are you still there for her, waiting for your chance?
Thanks for making good points ovrrnbw,
"So you told her she looks like crap?"
No. I felt sorry for her due to all the deceit she has been doing and that she never used to be that sort of person.
"Is the thing I'm about to say going to bring me closer to my H or further away?"
I think W is afraid to admit what she's done, is extremely stubborn, and is in denial and defensive. Calling out the BS in a very calm way and saying I understand and won't get angry about it might help to take away some of her fear.
About the advice from a friend, I said that in a humorous way but she is fortunate that I've been calm whereas most people wouldn't be. My counsellor pointed that out to me a few days ago.
I said to W it was starting to have a bad impact upon the kids and this was her choice.
I said I realise that she is probably too afraid to discus her point of view
I said that she used to be lovely and that I now felt sorry for her as I thought she was better than what she has been doing
Please Please Please.. tell me you didn't say those things.. that is one of the worst thing you could of done.
The only person you are fooling is yourself here. You do things that are completely wrong and then try and justify them because it suits your narrative. You are adding to much pressure and come across very desperate.
If you were fearless about losing W as you claim - then you wouldnt be saying to her what you are saying - you are completely contradicting yourself. Say one thing - then act the complete opposite.
You are not an expert in this - otherwise you would be in this situation. What is the point in coming here for people to advise you - and then you do the opposite because you feel desperate and scared?
My dilemma is whether to:
A) Give it more time because I want my kids to have a complete family with their proper parents. I've started to feel a bit impatient because the split is starting to have a bad impact upon them. A risk is that I may lose out financially if I wait too long and then W files for D.
B) D W and start a new life possibly far away.
A family starts with a healthy relationship between husband and wife.
You don’t have that because she doesn’t want to be with you anymore.
You constantly talk about how you would be willing to work at it, while ignoring the fact that if someone doesn’t want to be in a relationship with you then its over. No amount of work you do will change that. Relationships end all the time. People change. You keep looking at it as a package i.e family, home, kids… its all IRRELEVANT if one partner wants out. Which she does. You need to understand that and move on. You say you do, but then speak about giving her more time - as if she is going to wake up one morning and change her mind. It’s a fantasy. Its not happening.
There is no dilemma. The only dilemma is you thinking you can change things.
Take control of your life and stop basing your decisions on her because you are desperate to keep your family together. That family unit is gone unfortunately for you, because she doesn’t want to be a family with you. Its harsh but that simple. Accept it and do what you were advised to do months ago.
I've probably done everything wrong today... did the kids exchange which is now in a public place. W looked very tried, older and made no effort to look nice. W said that she'd given youngest kid a phone. I said that she had told youngest that we would both discuss it beforehand. W denied that conversation and then she twisted it. I said that it was typical of her to be dishonest, rewrite and twist everything.
One of the kids was upset being passed between us. I suggested going to a cafe to do it and W agreed.
So you and W had a conversation about a phone, she went against her word in that discussion, and you reward her behavior by going out to lunch together? I dont really understand? Do you think the kids are more upset by the simple act of the handoff or by the inconsistency the two of you are showing such that they dont know what to expect? If your relationship is strained enough that you need to meet in public, then I feel like spending a "family afternoon" together is silly.
I said to W it was starting to have a bad impact upon the kids and this was her choice.
I dont understand this? Are you saying the breakdown of your marriage is all her fault? Sure, she is the one that is pushing for separation now, but what about the issues that you had before the start of that? I went back and read some of your earlier posts, and I guess you dont really get into your side of the street. You paint a very "good vs evil" picture of you vs your wife. What about you? You say you are "better" now, but what kinds of things have you worked at? How would your R be different?
Basically, blaming her is a waste of your breath. It isnt going to make her attracted to you or the idea of being with you. So what is your goal in saying this? It just comes across as passive-aggressive.
I then suggested that we went to a restaurant and W agreed.
Again, why? You seem very inconsistent here. You are angry at her for being dishonest. You say this whole thing is her fault.....and then you ask her out to lunch?! What are your boundaries? What kinds of things are important to you in a partner?
W denies taking money despite me saying that I have the evidence. I had mentioned it in a humorous way when it was time to pay the bill.
So...shes still lying right to your face....and yet you are treating her to lunch? I just.....dont understand.
I said that she used to be lovely and that I now felt sorry for her as I thought she was better than what she has been doing.
What was your goal in saying this? It just comes off as rude. So Im trying to see why someone would say that to any person....let alone someone he was trying to attract.
I said that I tried to understand what she is going through and I had looked on the internet to search for rewriting martial history and a lot of it made sense and that what she is going through is a known predicatable thing.
I dont think it's your place or job to 'diagnose' her. Im not sure what the goal/benefit is.
I said I just had to get some things off my chest
AH. Now it all makes sense. The proverbial "say some things" strategy. Sandi asks a question often that really resonates with me. Would you rather be right or married? To me, all of the things you said set you back if your goal is to recreate your family. If you just want to have said things to be seen as "right" or "good" or whatever, then I think you succeeded in that.
I guess there was some progress
I....dont think the progress was towards reconciling...
There's no chance of R whilst she is still in that cunning, truth bending, alien state of mind that is a long way below the person I thought she used to be.
You say this like it's your choice at the moment. But, What makes you think she's at all interested in that right now? Why are you focused on that? And again, if that IS Your goal, then I dont think this outing was progress towards it...
^^^^^ great post up there.
You are completely inconsistent. She tries to screw you over and you ask her out to lunch? You really just look more like a doormat who only reacts to her actions instead of getting some self respect and keeping boundaries for yourself.
This kind of action will only bring you farther away from your goal and stuck wherever your W wants you at that moment.
Also, I do think the inconcsistency is what is the main thing that is hard on your children. They are probably so confused as to what is going on with you two.
Time to make some boundaires and stick to them and display some more consistency rather than reacting your wife's moves.
but then speak about giving her more time - as if she is going to wake up one morning and change her mind. It’s a fantasy. Its not happening.
Lots of people get back together. A relative of mine was apart from her husband for 12 years but got back together again... but of course lots of people don't...
There is no dilemma. The only dilemma is you thinking you can change things.
The dilemma is what I decide to do. I was done with it a couple of days ago and ready to file and searched for houses a long way away but then my kids gave me lovely hugs, said they enjoyed our meal with W, and said they wanted our family together again.
W is distraught missing them so much when they are with me. W is an intelligent woman but her behaviour is all over the place. Maybe one day she will recover and realise her mistakes, or maybe not.
Lots of people get back together. A relative of mine was apart from her husband for 12 years but got back together again... but of course lots of people don't...
Do you really want to spend the next 12 years waiting for her to change her mind?
The point is that you need to get on with your own life as if she is gone and never coming back, because she is gone. What you want, or unfortunately even what your kids want, is irrelevant.
The sooner you let her go, the sooner you can start to heal.
[quote=DavidUK
The dilemma is what I decide to do. I was done with it a couple of days ago and ready to file and searched for houses a long way away but then my kids gave me lovely hugs, said they enjoyed our meal with W, and said they wanted our family together again.
W is distraught missing them so much when they are with me. W is an intelligent woman but her behaviour is all over the place. Maybe one day she will recover and realise her mistakes, or maybe not.
[/quote]
This is why your kids are having such a hard time. Because that is not your reality right now, and when your family time is over, it goes back to their reality.
You guys need to be living what your actual reality is right now. And that is your W not recommitting to the marriage and you are feeding her cake.
I thought it better going to the cafe for a drink to do the swap-over as W was being extremely clingy to them. W agreed. W bought the drinks. The kids wanted us all to go somewhere miles away. W said no, and then she suggested going elsewhere nearby for a meal. She didn't order anything for herself so I paid for the kids and I. That would have been a 180 because W had been paying most when gong out (prob due to her guilt at taking and hiding money).
"Are you saying the breakdown of your marriage is all her fault? Sure, she is the one that is pushing for separation now, but what about the issues that you had before the start of that?"
I'm out of depression (some was caused by her behaviour) looking after myself much better, feeling better about myself, getting out and doing more things, I'm very independant etc. much like when we first met.
About the finance, I joked about something she wouldn't have realised that I knew. It's one less thing for her to be afraid to admit to me. She now knows that I know about that.
About the kids, W and I are to go on a course (but not at the same time) to learn about the impact of S upon kids. It is something I asked to be added to the court order.
So you were going to look at houses far away and your kids changed your mind as they liked family time?
This constant chopping and changing is so unfair to the kids. You do realise when you spend time together they will think you are getting back together dont you? Especially as you claim she looked at you different, was warmer etc..
None of the way you are dealing with this is helping them. As others here have said thats the sad part what you are putting them through without realising it
So basically you did everything that wife would want and worked for her.
You have got to stop that.
SHE was being clingy to them? Who cares? What matters is what is right for the kids. Not her. Everything is about her her her.
So basically you did everything that wife would want and worked for her.
You have got to stop that.
SHE was being clingy to them? Who cares? What matters is what is right for the kids. Not her. Everything is about her her her.
He will do everything for her as a priority as she is the key to him keeping his house etc
SHE was being clingy to them? Who cares? What matters is what is right for the kids. Not her. Everything is about her her her.
W was creating a scene upsetting the kids saying goodbye so I suggested walking into the cafe to get a drink so to calm the kids.
you were going to look at houses far away and your kids changed your mind as they liked family time?
I looked at houses online near to where I used to live because I feel the need to explore all options about where I might live in the future if I lose the home and kids which seems likely in a D. I've been very close to filing because I feel done but the kids want their home and parents together so I've tried to give it some time as I put them first.
I've been very close to filing because I feel done but the kids want their home and parents together so I've tried to give it some time as I put them first.
David, you have probably thought about it - but what does being close mean? The fact is you haven't. You are looking for excuses not to make a strong decisive move - hoping for a miracle that will mean you don't have to do it.
No child wants their parents to split up. Your situation isn't unique. But children can normally adjust to change i.e. with mum weekdays and dads at weekends for example - the problem here is that your actions are NOT helping the kids. It is NOT putting them first. You have no boundaries and its affecting them. Going for afternoon lunches - and looking warmly at each other the table or whatever happened is playing with their emotions.
What sort of message are you sending to your children dealing with this situation this way?
You are teaching them to stay with someone who makes them unhappy because of the kids. No sane person would because that isn't the correct thing to do.
See, the crux of it is, you think by not filing divorce you are closer to reconciling and keeping your family together, however, your other actions are taking you farther away from that goal.
SHE was being clingy to them? Who cares? What matters is what is right for the kids. Not her. Everything is about her her her.
W was creating a scene upsetting the kids saying goodbye so I suggested walking into the cafe to get a drink so to calm the kids.
Again, I dont see how rewarding that behavior makes sense. What is to stop her from being clingy again next time? Would you do that if your daughter was acting that way? Next time, have plans prepared and tell W you have to go immediately at drop off.
you were going to look at houses far away and your kids changed your mind as they liked family time?
I looked at houses online near to where I used to live because I feel the need to explore all options about where I might live in the future if I lose the home and kids which seems likely in a D. I've been very close to filing because I feel done but the kids want their home and parents together so I've tried to give it some time as I put them first.
Knowledge is power. I think it's good to at least know what your options are and to be prepared to make a decision when the time comes. Thats why we all keep pushing you to be contacting lawyers or real estate agents, or bankers to really understand all of the options.
You are teaching them to stay with someone who makes them unhappy because of the kids. No sane person would because that isn't the correct thing to do.
Benito, sometimes, I wonder if you have read DR...I dont understand this quote at all. I say by standing, he is teaching his children to honor his commitments. He is teaching them to stand for what they believe in. I think tucking and running just because his W is making him unhappy is kind of the opposite of what MWD writes about.
Ultimately, I think it comes down to your goals, which I still think are fuzzy. I cant tell what you are trying to accomplish, so I think we are all assuming that your goal still includes reconciling with this woman and having a successful marriage in the future. If so, then I wonder what kind of "progress" you are making as some of your actions dont really seem aligned with that....
You are teaching them to stay with someone who makes them unhappy because of the kids. No sane person would because that isn't the correct thing to do.
Benito, sometimes, I wonder if you have read DR...I dont understand this quote at all. I say by standing, he is teaching his children to honor his commitments. He is teaching them to stand for what they believe in. I think tucking and running just because his W is making him unhappy is kind of the opposite of what MWD writes about.
MWD isnt the rebirth of christ.. her work doesnt need to be followed to the word. In certain situations, other people might have more experience or real life experience of what works than she does. She is a women with an ability to sell her opinion..nothing more. Different strokes for different folks.
You dont need to wonder about me; I have read it, implemented it, and we purchase our second home together in a few weeks. So lets say I threw myself into it. And it worked.
This situation has not changed a single bit since it started. Its is the same chasing and desperate reactive behaviour it has been from the start. If someone comes to this board for help but then continues to do the same behaviour that is actually pushing her away - it tells me he knows what to do but is scared about the actual reality of moving away and actually coming to terms that this relationship is over and life is too ridiculously short to be trying to build trust with people who steal from you in your closet circle. If I knew one of my brothers or daughters were in a relationship like that I would not be happy.
A situation where one person is 100% certain the other person is stealing from them but continues to entertain her.
The same person that told us he has been caught out by this someone taking his money and treating him similar in the past.
I personally don't believe that we are getting the full story from David personally. We are told depression was involved - yet he also blames her for contributing to that bizarrely.
But some situations are not worth saving at one particular time because it isnt healthy. He is teaching them to be a door mat. Are you telling me their kids have never picked up on the dynamic in that home? how he is the one in pursuit mode? Of course they do. That isnt a good lesson to teach kids. You want to teach them kids that the commitment to himself as a person is less important than that of the person he is in a unhealthy relationship with?
I personally cant believe that you think that putting that behaviour in front of the your own pride and integrity is a lesson you should be teaching kids.
I've been very close to filing because I feel done but the kids want their home and parents together so I've tried to give it some time as I put them first.
David, you have probably thought about it - but what does being close mean?
I'm starting to get prepared for a worst-case scenario whereby I'd lose the house and kids in a D.
After the meal on Sunday, on Monday I was feeling totally done and wanting to call my solicitor to file but I had the kids with me and I looked at them and couldn't do it.
My solicitor is now doing prep work to be completed this week for the next custody date and then getting back to me about finance. Next week, I plan to ask W if she has sent the financial info (she hasn't done yet) that I requested over a week ago. If she doesn't then my solicitor has already composed a letter formally asking W for financial info for a D but it hasn't been sent yet due to the custody case.
The financial info should reveal what W has done. Perhaps that proof of what W has done might wake her from her BS immature alien fog, and it should show how long I can leave it before filing to protect myself financially.
You are teaching them to stay with someone who makes them unhappy because of the kids. No sane person would because that isn't the correct thing to do.
Benito, sometimes, I wonder if you have read DR...I dont understand this quote at all. I say by standing, he is teaching his children to honor his commitments. He is teaching them to stand for what they believe in. I think tucking and running just because his W is making him unhappy is kind of the opposite of what MWD writes about.
You dont need to wonder about me; I have read it, implemented it, and we purchase our second home together in a few weeks. So lets say I threw myself into it. And it worked.
I know. I was there helping you through it. Probably though one of my previous usernames
This situation has not changed a single bit since it started. Its is the same chasing and desperate reactive behaviour it has been from the start. If someone comes to this board for help but then continues to do the same behaviour that is actually pushing her away - it tells me he knows what to do but is scared about the actual reality of moving away and actually coming to terms that this relationship is over and life is too ridiculously short to be trying to build trust with people who steal from you in your closet circle. If I knew one of my brothers or daughters were in a relationship like that I would not be happy.
Im confused. I one hundred percent agree with the bolded. I think that David should continue to post and learn and grow. What I dont understand is the latter part and what that has to do with the first part. I never have said that the objective right now should be to build trust or try to repair a relationship with someone that is clearly "out". I said that now is a time to focus on personal growth and focus on being the best man and dad and friend and person he can be. Basically, to take the relationship with W and put it completely to the side. To set appropriate boundaries for what he will accept and what he wont. If the stealing or the lying is enough to make it so that he doesnt want to be in a relationship with her ever again, then, sure, fine, get divorced. i dont think it's any place of ours to judge his desire to want to make the marriage work at some point in the future. I dont think simply running is the only solution, because until he has the skills to enforce boundaries and to GAL and to become AMOAFWL, then it doesnt really matter with which woman he is in a relationship.
A situation where one person is 100% certain the other person is stealing from them but continues to entertain her.
The same person that told us he has been caught out by this someone taking his money and treating him similar in the past.
For me, that would possibly be a deal breaker as well. But that isnt my place to project my opinions on what is acceptable or not onto David's life and marriage. For many people a PA is a deal breaker...for others it isnt. I say each person can draw their own line. I believe our job is to help people to define that line and help them enforce it....not to project our own lines onto them.
But some situations are not worth saving at one particular time because it isnt healthy. He is teaching them to be a door mat. Are you telling me their kids have never picked up on the dynamic in that home? how he is the one in pursuit mode? Of course they do. That isnt a good lesson to teach kids. You want to teach them kids that the commitment to himself as a person is less important than that of the person he is in a unhealthy relationship with?
Youre right, he is absolutely teaching that. But not because he is sticking around and hoping to save his marriage. It's in not enforcing boundaries, it's in not discussing things like the phone with her, it's in taking her to lunch when she whines about the kids leaving.
David - Im sorry for the hijack. I think we all want you to succeed in whatever your goals are. I know it doesnt do you any good to hear a bunch of different viewpoints. I think that Benito and I certainly agree that you need to figure out what your "line in the sand" is. You need to figure out what behaviors from you you can and what behaviors you cannot accept. And what your response(s) is when she acts in ways that you wont accept. And then you need to stick to those so that they arent moving targets for her. It's not an easy job, but I think it will benefit both you and your kids.
I personally cant believe that you think that putting that behaviour in front of the your own pride and integrity is a lesson you should be teaching kids.
I don't know that anyone is saying that. No one wants that, but isn't that what marriage is about? The commitment to stick it out when it gets hard? A vow that is only kept when it is easy, and not when it is hardest to keep, is no vow at all.
I get your overall point but really don't agree with bailing out on marriage because the person isn't making you happy. Don't we always say around here that you are responsible for your own happiness?
You made some strong points too:
David, you have probably thought about it - but what does being close mean? The fact is you haven't. You are looking for excuses not to make a strong decisive move - hoping for a miracle that will mean you don't have to do it.
.
David, you have probably thought about it - but what does being close mean? The fact is you haven't. You are looking for excuses not to make a strong decisive move - hoping for a miracle that will mean you don't have to do it.
Maybe the snaking money away in the background for another life is probably where i draw my line.
Met W at the kids change-over. She seemed more normal than at any other time since DB. W asked me questions. I mentioned that I had been going to a library and reading books. W gave me a double-take because that's such a 180 for me. It's now a regular part of my GAL on one day per week. I enjoy it and have talked with some interesting people and looked at subjects I hadn't thought about before. I said it's going well looking after the kids on my own and it's now really well organised at home and nice and calm. W joked that was because she wasn't there. I was surprised by that self-depreciating comment because she never admits that she's wrong. I didn't comment. I also said that I'd been getting counselling (another 180). She's looking after the child of a friend tonight because her friend is now seeing someone. W social life can't be much whereas I'm getting out and improving myself.
I'm thinking of sending a message to W. Basically, it's to say how I went through a bad time when a parent died and I can understand how I wasn't attractive during that period. I can therefore understand why she bought a house with her parents 2 years ago in prep to leave. That W was then distant and I hadn't known why so I became frustrated and feeling more depressed. She confided in others instead of me. If she had been supportive and honest then I'd have been out of depression a long time ago. I can understand why she lied about her hiding money in prep to leave.
I'm looking to ease the way for her to stop being in denial of what she has done by her realising that I know the truth so there's no point in her telling lies anymore.
Met W at the kids change-over. She seemed more normal than at any other time since DB. W asked me questions. I mentioned that I had been going to a library and reading books. W gave me a double-take because that's such a 180 for me. It's now a regular part of my GAL on one day per week. I enjoy it and have talked with some interesting people and looked at subjects I hadn't thought about before. I said it's going well looking after the kids on my own and it's now really well organised at home and nice and calm. W joked that was because she wasn't there. I was surprised by that self-depreciating comment because she never admits that she's wrong. I didn't comment. I also said that I'd been getting counselling (another 180). She's looking after the child of a friend tonight because her friend is now seeing someone. W social life can't be much whereas I'm getting out and improving myself.
I still dont understand why you are having these 5-10 or whatever minute chats (or more) with her at seemingly every drop off. She lies to you and is rude and so on and yet you still want to have these little pleasant exchanges? For my ex and I, I used to drop the kids off at her door and come up and have these "status update" meetings, but even then, it was only about the kids. Eventually, we started communicating only electronically. I dont understand why you are having these regular personal discussion with her. I again urge you next time to have somewhere to be so you arent having these chats.
I'm thinking of sending a message to W. Basically, it's to say how I went through a bad time when a parent died and I can understand how I wasn't attractive during that period. I can therefore understand why she bought a house with her parents 2 years ago in prep to leave. That W was then distant and I hadn't known why so I became frustrated and feeling more depressed. She confided in others instead of me. If she had been supportive and honest then I'd have been out of depression a long time ago. I can understand why she lied about her hiding money in prep to leave.
I'm looking to ease the way for her to stop being in denial of what she has done by her realising that I know the truth so there's no point in her telling lies anymore.
No....dont send this. It just puts all of the pressure on her. Right now, she is what she is and she is who she is. There is no rewinding the clock. You dont see how she would read that as this situation is all her fault? You take zero responsibility for your actions, blame your feelings on her, and now you want HER to change? If you want her to stop lying, then next time she lies to your face, just hold your hand up and say something like "we both know thats a lie. Im not going to continue this conversation if you arent being truthful.". It isnt your fault that she lies to your and it isnt her fault that you became depressed.
Again, this isnt just something she is going to "snap out of". If she is going to want to reconcile with you, it's because you are attracting her back by being the best you that you can be consistently and for a long period of time. The best things for you to do include:
1) Focus on becoming the man you want to be. The best version of you.
2) Give her a chance to wonder about you and miss you. Do 180s. GAL. Try new things.
3) Establish and enforce your boundaries. If that is her lying or stealing or whatever. Pick the behaviors you will accept in your life and dont allow the negative behaviors in.
These actions are much more powerful than ANYTHING you could write.SAYING you arent depressed anymore is a lot less meaning ful than NOT BEING depressed anymore.
No....dont send this. It just puts all of the pressure on her. Right now, she is what she is and she is who she is. There is no rewinding the clock.
The best things for you to do include:
1) Focus on becoming the man you want to be. The best version of you.
2) Give her a chance to wonder about you and miss you. Do 180s. GAL. Try new things.
3) Establish and enforce your boundaries. If that is her lying or stealing or whatever. Pick the behaviors you will accept in your life and dont allow the negative behaviors in.
These actions are much more powerful than ANYTHING you could write.SAYING you arent depressed anymore is a lot less meaning ful than NOT BEING depressed anymore.
Actions, not words. Keep working on yourself D!
I'm thinking of sending a message to W. Basically, it's to say how I went through a bad time when a parent died and I can understand how I wasn't attractive during that period. I can therefore understand why she bought a house with her parents 2 years ago in prep to leave. That W was then distant and I hadn't known why so I became frustrated and feeling more depressed. She confided in others instead of me. If she had been supportive and honest then I'd have been out of depression a long time ago. I can understand why she lied about her hiding money in prep to leave.
I'm looking to ease the way for her to stop being in denial of what she has done by her realising that I know the truth so there's no point in her telling lies anymore.
She isnt in denial. She is following her plan perfectly.
David, write the letter but don't send it. It's more for you than her. The landfills of the world are full of such letters, except for the ones that were burned, LOL! If she ever brings it up then listen and validate and tell her you can understand why she felt that way. No letters though.
Good lord don't send that message. It's 1000% pursuit and will do exactly what you don't want (drive her further away).
....I wasn't attractive during that period....
How are you being attractive now?
At the start of the day I was told that W had missed the deadline to make a statement for the next custody case but my legal person and her's have agreed to extend the deadline (so I can make changes to mine).
Tonight I had to meet W at the school to speak to teachers together. Her demeanour had totally changed to be more normal and more humble. She was extremely well dressed. I was stunned to see that youngest had drawn a pic in a school book of going to where she now lives with W with a caption saying it was the 'worst day of my life'. I showed it to W. In a calm voice I said to W that I knew she had done a lot of bad things. She denied it. I said there's no point denying it. W then said she would feel uncomfortable about going back. She then said uncomfortable wasn't the right word but then couldn't find the right word. I joked saying because she resents and hates me. She insisted that she didn't, which seems odd considering that she certainly has been like that for a long time.
W said there's no chance of us having a relationship but she wants to talk about us getting along better due to the kids (nope, I'm not going to be friend-zoned). I said I had been reading a book (that's a 180) and it explains the problems we had in a way I hadn't realised. She said that perhaps she'd better read it too (that's a 180 for her to admit she isn't perfect).
W then said a few things that supported me in front of the kids (that's a 180 for her). W raised the issue of new mobile phones for the kids (they already want better ones) and she said to the kids that she would speak to me about it. I said I know she has already told the kids they are to have new ones and when.
At the end she turned and said "we'll talk soon" in a kind of positive, but soft and understanding way.
I don't know why but W seemed a lot different tonight. It had been our anniversary days before, perhaps she senses that I'd had enough and had called out her BS. I'm also asking for her to supply her full financial details that should expose what she's done, we are both going to be doing a course about the impact of S on kids, the kids are with me, it was at the school, W is feeling ill, all but 1 of her friends now has a partner. I'm now doing well with GAL, looking after the kids on my own, and 180s. I am getting there, I think I'll be OK whatever, it's the kids I worry about more than myself. It was like her alien fog had gone and she was almost sorry. I think it's over and she's moved on but on the other-hand she's finding it tough being without the kids and her BS has come-undone. Something I've noticed is that W changes a lot for the better when FiL isn't staying with her.
It still sticks in my mind that after W left, she said that I'd never be able to trust her ever again. I hadn't known why at the time. She then arranged for family days out together and tried to create arguments to use against me. I wonder if I'm being set-up again. She's right, I can't trust her.
....I wasn't attractive during that period....
How are you being attractive now?
My depression has gone (at least for now). I'm looking so, so much better, I still have my confidence speaking to anyone, I'm doing things that I wouldn't have considered at all before, I'm now really well organised and focused. I'm getting counselling, I'm independent like before I met W, I am capable of being a single parent. I've called out W BS in a calm but firm way without an arguement. I like myself, I'm a good honest person, good sense of humour, and do some very cool stuff.
Yes. Even my mother says that she feels like her son is back, that my voice even sounds more positive. I get compliments from W and other women about how I now look. Even MiL says she's amazed at how calm i've been.
My mother has been a WAW a few times. She is certain that W will now be having some doubts due to the positive changes I've made but it would't last long if we got back together now because W hasn't changed for the better. W has a lot of work to do for herself. My mother thinks it would take a year or 2. I could forgive W for what she's done (that I know of). If there is OP then I'd feel different.
Because of the changes I've made and feeling better in lots of ways, I'm confident that I'd be better in a R in the future but I'm aware enough that that's only how I feel at the moment.
Please start a new thread. This thread has reached the 100 posting/reply limit. Also, please link this current thread to your new one and vice versa. Many thanks!
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