Here's a link to the previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2802474&page=1Neffer thanks. It's not by choice that anyone would view me as a single woman and it's not something I want, but I'll try to do as you say and feel the fresh air.
The big question I keep asking myself is whether it's right or wrong to have any faint glimmer of hope that my husband could ever come back and work to reconcile. If it's a clear and obvious "no" to everyone else and I'm just not seeing it then maybe it'd help me to work harder to confront reality and move on. I wish to get input from a real expert in addition to people who've been through this in real life like many of you here.
I'm happy and thankful that my career is going better-than-ever and my daughter didn't cry when she went back to school today. Next week I'll leave here there for the first time until 5:30 PM one day. We'll see how that goes.
Thanks to everyone here who has read and responded to this thread for your support. I really appreciate it.
My honest fear for you, Nicole, as I silently read, that if your H would come back tomorrow, you would take him back no questions asked, no boundaries established, no changes needed to be made. I fear you will do that and you will go through the 3rd cycle.
I think either way you should move on. Should your H become a changed man who has actually seen error in his ways and has done the work needed on himself to not do what he did yet again, then you will be in a better place to even consider it. Moving on means getting your life in order as if he wasn't coming back. If he ever does, under the right pretenses, then you deal with that then.
Live your life right just as it is. Confront your reality right now and act accordingly. It doesn't mean you close the door to any future possibilities, but you do need to live your life as if he isn't coming back.
Nic, I think for there will always be a glimmer of hope for those of us that that value commitment and honor our vows. Along with this hope we also must continue to move forward and strive for the best fort ourselves and our kids. Be it with or without WAS. I just hope and pray that we can all find a peaceful resolution so that our hearts and minds can no longer be troubled. Stay well- Blessings!
Thanks Ginger and OneArt. Yes I agree with what you're saying. I keep getting stuck though. I'll write more as briefly as possible tomorrow regarding why there's so much repetition in my posts and why I can't seem to get past this point. One thing is clear though which is that I couldn't take my husband back quickly or with no questions. The destruction he caused is too great. This is the second time he did this and this time not only did he leave and carry on with another woman but he displaced us, left us struggling financially, abandoned his daughter for an extended period of time, and had no concern for our welfare. I took him back the first time because he was only gone for eight weeks and he seemed remorseful and I wasn't well-equipped at that time to anticipate what could happen by taking him back easily. This time there'd need to be many conditions to protect my daughter and myself and even then there is no guarantee that my husband could sustain an effort to reconcile. I do wish he'd try because he wrecked his own life in addition to ours.
LoneWlf, yes I guess that glimmer of hope is hard to shed. It would be nice to feel more at peace. I used to be really comfortable with uncertainty but not now. I hope the same wish for a peaceful resolution for everyone here.
Nicole, he's not coming back.
I understand how hard it is to let that last glimmer of hope extinguish, though. My WAW isn't coming back either, but I can't quite let go. I'm living like she isn't, and that is all I can do until that last glimmer is gone. "Fake it 'til you make it!"
"The only concern is if you start dating someone and it gets serious the guy thinks it's time to start spending nights together and I say no at that time, then he'll probably be upset that he wasted his time. I just feel it's so much easier to skip this whole ordeal. "
Nicole, I just saw this quote from your last thread. I guess there's two things i want to say... the first is that if you are up front about how you feel (maybe not on the first date or two, though), whether he has wasted his time will be completely up to him. If you are honest with him, whether he wastes his time or not will not be your responsibility or fault. The second is that you seem to be putting a lot of obstacles up yourself. Stop worrying about where it "probably" will lead, or whether he's too young,or whether he'd want sex too soon, or he's too far away, or where you will meet him, or...... and just go with the flow. You might be pleasantly surprised. There are obviously guys who are interested.
Hi Ginger1 and OneArt, here's the follow-on to your messages - this is the part where I'm really stuck and this is why I can't get past the repetition. I just don't know how to move on more than I have. I really apologize to everyone for writing the same stuff but I'll do it one more time just to ask the question based on this context. I packed up and moved 1,000 miles away, rented an apartment in my own name without my husband, found a full-time job with my own insurance, stopped contacting my husband completely aside from one time when our daughter was really sick earlier in the summer, did many 180's after identifying my own weaknesses and behavior that contributed to the downfall of the marriage, and I've done GAL more than I ever did even in college. I'm living independently as 100% single parent with no help from my husband so he's off-the-hook aside from the money he sends us. I've spent thousands on counseling and therapy this past year and I'll probably soon start again. I've tried to accept the fact that I turned 40 and have more physical flaws and I'm trying to find a way forward where I don't let those flaws weaken my self-esteem in light of the 20 years olds my husband has dated. I've tried to at least imagine getting into a future relationship and how that might happen (or not).
I just don't know what more to do. I hear you loud-and-clear that I should move on but what more can I do? The only further step I see is to get into a new relationship because ultimately I loved sharing my life with someone. Sure we can all live single but most of us would be lying if we say we're truly happy alone and have no desire to share our lives with someone special.
Perhaps the answer is to stop talking about that final glimmer of hope, to suppress it both internally and externally, and to present an image that I've moved on to the world and even to this forum and that is the next step? It doesn't feel intuitive to do that but is that what others have done?
Jim, you say fake it 'til you make it so maybe this is what you're saying. Is that right? I can also try to convince myself that my husband isn't coming back since even getting fired didn't make him stop and think about his life. On the other hand he's still on a trajectory towards becoming closer again. I heard him asking our daughter on the phone how I'm doing. He's been applying for jobs in the Midwest and said "I'm doing this for us, so I can support us." He's been calling more often and he's more like his normal self. My sense is that he's been dating someone again recently but I doubt it's serious or else he'd disappear again or start pushing for divorce again. He hasn't asked to spend the night here, so obviously he's not willing to take any risks, but I'm still waiting to see where he finds a job and decides to live.
Jim, I'll also try harder to keep an open mind and to be honest if I meet anyone. I still don't feel comfortable with dating but if I meet someone where there's mutual interest we could try meeting and talking and see where it goes. It's hard not to have those obstacles because my whole life has been based on sets of rules and limitations that served as a safety net and helped in making the right decisions (except for marrying my husband obviously). It's hard to let go because if I just go with whatever emotions I feel at the moment I might end up with someone who isn't right for my daughter or who will have the same characteristics as my husband. I'll try to let go but not to the extent where I make bad decisions. It's a new area for me. I have no interest in starting over with a new man but I know as time passes I can't depend on my husband coming back.
I will try to find a new counselor and I'll keep trying to get past this point of being stuck. I'll keep everyone posted on how this happens and I greatly appreciate advice from those who've made it past. Thanks again.
Hi N, I´m at work here and I have to go now so I can´t write too much.
Just sending you a big big big big big hug.
Yes, let him go...
(I´ll need to use sunglasses but it´s raining outside...)
((((((((N))))))))
Nic - Don't minimize how far you have come!!!! Give yourself a pat on the back girl!!!!
I think repeated statements like "I'm waiting to see if my H gets a job/where my H gets a job" is why you are still being held back. Detatching and moving forward wouldn't see your self/future dependent on your H for anything. Its like "if he gets a job far away from us... then I know he has hung up the towel and move on". You asked me how I know and your H knows you are still available - its that statement.
I'm not judging you or chastising you. But you need find a mantra and repeat to yourself daily - these are my plans and what I'm going to do - what H does is of little matter to me.
As I said before - they only really want to come back when you have truly moved on.
Nic if he takes a job across the country and then has an epiphany he wants his M - he will move mountains to make it happen. When/where he gets said job should only impact your financial situation and nothing else.
Now, as far as dating... do that when you are really ready. In meantime is it far fetched to meet a colleague/friend for beer or coffee? I think I gave you the wrong impression earlier. I barely dated in High School or College for that matter as I was painfully shy. I had a couple of very serious relationships before I met my current H. I didn't date at all for 3 years when I split from my son's father - I was content with my career and raising a special needs child. But, my 180 in life was making myself say yes more to things that I wouldn't have before, which meant accepting a lot of first dates. You will be surprised what you really learn about yourself when you are willing to put yourself out there. These were very low key dinner meet and greets - no pressure, no strings attached. Just because you go out on a first date doesn't mean you are expected to have some type of commitment in any way. They don't need to know your life story. Just go and have dinner and casual conversation.
I think that you are at the stage considering that there might be someone else... that you are discussing the idea of dating is a huge step in moving forward. You are looking at alternate futures for yourself and that is a huge thing to wrap your head around given how much you have invested in your idea of what your M should be.
Be proud of how far you have come!
Nicole, you have done a great job and come so much further than I thought you would based on early days. I think my fear for you, and perhaps others, is not how you are handling this time alone, but how you will handle it when he inevitably tries again to come back. I think we are trying to gird you for that.
The way you talk about yourself and your options is also very limiting. I don't come from a conservative background, but although liberal in my beliefs I live a very conservative life by choice. Please don't put so many boundaries on your future, which is unknowable to you now, and think expansively about where it might take you and who might be there with you. You don't have to figure all of this out today. Just live today. Find the joy.
Perhaps the answer is to stop talking about that final glimmer of hope, to suppress it both internally and externally, and to present an image that I've moved on to the world and even to this forum and that is the next step? It doesn't feel intuitive to do that but is that what others have done?
Jim, you say fake it 'til you make it so maybe this is what you're saying. Is that right? I can also try to convince myself that my husband isn't coming back since even getting fired didn't make him stop and think about his life. On the other hand he's still on a trajectory towards becoming closer again. I heard him asking our daughter on the phone how I'm doing. He's been applying for jobs in the Midwest and said "I'm doing this for us, so I can support us." He's been calling more often and he's more like his normal self. My sense is that he's been dating someone again recently but I doubt it's serious or else he'd disappear again or start pushing for divorce again. He hasn't asked to spend the night here, so obviously he's not willing to take any risks, but I'm still waiting to see where he finds a job and decides to live.
Jim, I'll also try harder to keep an open mind and to be honest if I meet anyone. I still don't feel comfortable with dating but if I meet someone where there's mutual interest we could try meeting and talking and see where it goes. It's hard not to have those obstacles because my whole life has been based on sets of rules and limitations that served as a safety net and helped in making the right decisions (except for marrying my husband obviously). It's hard to let go because if I just go with whatever emotions I feel at the moment I might end up with someone who isn't right for my daughter or who will have the same characteristics as my husband. I'll try to let go but not to the extent where I make bad decisions. It's a new area for me. I have no interest in starting over with a new man but I know as time passes I can't depend on my husband coming back.
I will try to find a new counselor and I'll keep trying to get past this point of being stuck. I'll keep everyone posted on how this happens and I greatly appreciate advice from those who've made it past. Thanks again.
Like KitCat said, don't minimize how far you've come. You have been kicked down, but you've gotten back on your feet and all things considered, you're doing well.
And yes, that's pretty much what I mean. Faking it is the external part, and I have made a point of reminding myself of the many ways W was a bad wife. That's the internal part, and it's been helping me tremendously to gain some distance.
I liked what KitCat suggested about dating. You said you've lived your whole life based on sets of rules and limitations.... whose? The were supposed to be a safety net, but that didn't turn out very well, did it? You were VERY brave, moving away, finding a job, getting an apartment, taking care of your D...... Those all worked out pretty well. I think maybe you should take a few more chances. There are very few decisions that you can make that are irreversible. Maybe it's time to rethink some of those rules.
Hi All,
Thanks so much for your responses. I've been out-of-town so I'll respond to each of your responses as soon as possible. In the meantime I just want to say it's been an odd couple of days. Several months ago I signed up for a retreat this past weekend. I'm sure I mentioned it to my husband but two days before the retreat he called to say he just bought a ticket and he's flying up for the weekend to see our daughter. I told him we already have plans and we'll be out-of-town. He was upset but decided to come anyway. On Friday before we left he had to take his father to a place down-the-street from us while our daughter was in school. It takes an hour to get here from their place. He brought his father here, took his father back home, turned around and drove here to see our daughter for a short time, and then turned around and went back home. The next day he drove three hours to the location of our retreat to see our daughter for two hours and turned around and drove three hours back. He acted really annoyed with me that I made these plans and inconvenienced him. I didn't apologize or feel bad of course. He could have coordinated with me but he always makes last minute decisions like this. I just don't understand how or why he'd make all that effort to fly and drive and yet he's largely absent from our daughter's life aside from these short visits and two minute phone calls each day.
I also want to share a big coincidence. I've written about the guy I met through work who is based in the UK. His company is small and specialized in a certain area. This weekend I was in the middle-of-nowhere on a retreat and a woman in my group mentioned she does international work similar to what I do. I later asked her where she works and her response? The same company where this guy works. She's American and it's just so unlikely that she works at that company. She'll be at the office in London next week and she'll meet this guy in person (she's new there). I wrote last week I also met his colleague who passed through my city. And now a member of my team will move to London next week and meet him as well. Just so strange because my company has never worked with that company before and our first venture together was the one that I led. I'm still talking to this guy often. It sounds like we'll meet because our companies seem to have won the business that he and I pursued together. I'm trying to grasp how someone can enter your life unexpectedly and suddenly you have so many connections with that person and so much instant synergy. I don't expect we'll ever end up in a relationship but something big happened the moment we made contact and now we're in each other's lives for better or worse.
The retreat I attended was religious in nature and for those who are religious on this forum, I drew the conclusion that ultimately what led to our situations in most cases was our spouse alone, or both we and our spouse, fell away from God and lost their way. Or maybe they never believed in anything greater and they're wandering through life lost. Maybe we've been lost as well. One thing religion does is give you a clear path to follow. I've had confusion in this area but I'm trying to address it. Whatever religion one follows I do believe strengthening our faith is a critical element of getting through this turbulence in our lives.
Nice post Nicole, but...those of us who are not religious have spouses in similar situations. I too have a very clear path for myself. I think I’ve mentioned before, that while my beliefs are quite liberal, I lead a very conservative life (not only do I not drink, but I’ve never been drunk, tried any drug, or taken a single puff on a cigarette). I don’t believe I’ve ever been to a bar and married my first boyfriend and have been married to him for more than 25 years. Not trying to attack your beliefs, or those of others, but have the profound sense that there is schism developing on this site between the religious and not religious that really makes me quite sad and seems often to get in the way of people trying to help people. I hope everyone here keeps in mind that this is a place where presumably we are unified by similar experiences in our intimate relationships, and that we happen to have different spiritual beliefs should not divide us. I would never suggest people shouldn’t embrace their faith, but it seems to be becoming some kind of a clique or badge or something. Just my thought. Quite certain some people will be offended by this, although I assure you I mean no harm.
Hi OneArt, I see what you're saying and I'm not offended and hope I wasn't offensive either. I don't even have clear religious beliefs but my post was more about it being one of the ways we can cope with what's happening. I was reminded by attending a retreat that it presents a clear path but that doesn't mean there aren't other paths. For many it's exercise, music, hobbies, expanding social networks, etc... that helps them the most. In a broader sense we don't need to be religious but let's say we, our spouses, or both experienced a loss of morality or ethics (in lieu of the word God or religion). Most of us have a sense of what's right or wrong. Ultimately many of these spouses must know what they're doing is wrong because it's hurting their loved ones and their actions are self-serving which isn't how it's supposed to be in marriage. Anyway I found that faith is important but I should have edited my e-mail last night to word it differently. I apologize for that. I'll make an effort on my end to avoid deepening the schism since we're all suffering just the same from the loss of our marriages and faith is one of many elements that plays into our situations.
Nicole,
I am not religious at all (although I am trying to develop a non-religious spirituality) and I didn't think there was anything offensive in your post. Many people here have told me that they are praying for me, or made other religious observations, and I take them for what they are - genuine expressions of caring coming from a different perspective/tradition than what I subscribe to. I haven't felt excluded at all.
Ultimately many of these spouses must know what they're doing is wrong because it's hurting their loved ones and their actions are self-serving which isn't how it's supposed to be in marriage.
I think in your case and in many of the sitches here that is clearly true. Breaking up a family and putting children through this process is horrible. But in cases like mine, without children, is it really unethical to walk away from a marriage that you are not happy in? I don't know that it is. I think one of the biggest lessons that I have learned from this process is that we are responsible for our own happiness, that we need to be self-sufficient, that we need to be "enough." If that is the true, isn't there a case to be made that walking away from a marriage that is dragging you down can be an ethical decision?
Nicole, I was in no way offended by what you wrote. It is your thread and you can write and feel and believe whatever you want. I just saw an opportunity to comment on something that has been weighing heavily on me and I believed from your writings and sensitivities that you would understand where I was coming from and hoped you would take no offense.
I am not an atheist, but I it feel no differently about their choice than I do about that of a Muslim, Jewish person, Christian, Buddhist, etc. I always say that because I don’t practice any of them, I can support the right of others to believe in any of them. I simply do not like the devisivsness that often comes with it. I am not talking about telling someone you will pray for them, or recounting a lssson or a favorite verse.
I don’t want to call out anyone in particular, but I am uncomfortable when one believes he is more enlightened, or more deserving or more righteous because he practices a given faith. A little tolerance is all, a recognition that we each carry our own crosses as it were, and just remembering that in our search for community and support, we are more alike than different.
Nicole, just wanted to give you a quick thanks for chiming in on my thread when I was in need. I like hearing from anyone no matter the circumstances. I hope you're doing well and things work out with you. I have a belief that some might find a bit different. I dont think coincidence is in Gods vocabulary. I think god puts people in our paths on purpose. Some help us grow and sometimes it might put us in the trial of our life. But I also know we all have our freedom to choose. And with that freedom there is consequences. And that's why alot of us are here..lol. Anyways, that's a little deep. I just read above how you met a guy from a different company that your company does business with. Good luck!
I think god puts people in our paths on purpose. Some help us grow and sometimes it might put us in the trial of our life. But I also know we all have our freedom to choose. And with that freedom there is consequences.
Hi Nic,
Just to add to this - I want to bring up a small story I told my S when he was smaller. The moral of the story was that we all have God given gifts. I started by saying that God has given each of us many different gifts for us to use on our life journey. It is up to us on how we use or give these gifts. Along our journey we will encounter all sorts of people. Each person is placed on a path for a reason. Some may teach us skills, some may teach us lessons. It is up to us on how we take and interpret these gifts. So through your life when you encounter someone new or old ask yourself -what do I need to learn from this person?
My son was about 5 years old when I told him this- He asked very puzzled, "Well what if the person is very mean, what do learn from this?" After some thought I responded " This person is giving you the gift of how NOT to act-how you should treat everyone with kindness". We all have met these people - It becomes our choice on how we are to act. Just like in a M when things go bad- we all can choose what to do.
Anyways Nic- I thought I share that with you and hope you choose what is right and come out with happiness and peace. Blessings!
Hi Nic- it's been a while since you've posted. Hope all is well. (((hugs))). Keep us posted on your progress. Know we are all with you - Blessings!
Hi all,
Thanks Lonewlf for checking. I've been trying to find a time to sit down and respond to the recent responses but I haven't had a chance yet. I hope this weekend. A quick update is that there's not much new with my husband or our marriage situation. He called tonight saying he's flying to the other coast for a training. Who knows if that's really what he's doing or if he's going on a romantic getaway with some woman. The only thing I noticed recently is that his eyes were so puffy when he last did facetime with our daughter and his appearance is generally pretty ragged. When he was dating the new woman in January he looked great but lately he doesn't, so he may or may not be dating. Perhaps he's just comfortable with whoever his girlfriend is or perhaps he has no girlfriend. There's no way to know anything at all.
There is an update about the guy I mentioned through work who lives in the UK. He and I won millions of dollars for our two companies through our recent work together which is exciting. He'll be coming in a few weeks so I'll meet him. I dropped the idea of any possibility of a relationship due to the age difference and being in different stages in life as well as the fact that I'm still married on paper but as a work team we're top notch.
I've been exhausted from non-stop work, social activities, and spending time with my daughter and everything is great in the professional and social sense but nothing fills the void from my husband being gone. As mentioned above, and I'll respond more to your responses ASAP, I feel that I've now done all that I can do to move on but life without a partner is just not the same.
Unfortunately, nothing can fill that void that the WAS spouse creates. So what to do? Focus on what we can control, which you seem to be doing.
I hope your work BF meetup goes well, that positive energy should carry through to other aspects of life, and I hope it does.
Even if he comes back, your feelings don't just bounce back to where they were before. That's the sad part, all the BS you go through changes you, your feelings, and your perception. It truly kills the old MR. We just take forever to realize it.
Thanks for the update Nic- Although the MR isn't going so good it looks like you are firing on all cylinders in all the other aspects of your life. Great job with your work accomplishment! In terms of the void from H - I feel the same way about my W. My suggestion is try to fill that void by having an outpouring of love to your child. Stay positive!
Nicole,
Thanks for the update. It is great to hear that work is going so well, and it sounds like you are keeping incredibly busy. That is so important. Those other areas of life won't necessarily fill in the void you feel from the lack of MR, but they can help you reclaim the positive, assertive person you were. They can inspire confidence and self-esteem which can carry over as well. Between the social and business successes and your daughter it sounds like you have a lot of positives in your life right now. Focus on them, enjoy them.
best of luck,
Ovvrnbw, Lonewlf, and Davide, thanks for your responses regarding the void that's left when a spouse leaves. I'm happy that other areas of my life are going well and I'm spending every minute when I'm not working with my daughter whether alone together or in a group setting, giving her as much undivided attention and love as humanly possible. She's doing well and I don't write much about her but I feel that I've done the best I can do as a mother. I prioritize playing with her and that's usually when she'll also talk more openly about things at school and questions she has about life. She still falls asleep in my arms and wakes up in my arms - it's been that way every day since she was born.
Anyway I just reached a point now where I feel I've done everything I can do to move on. I guess at this point advice such as "move on with your life" and "focus on yourself" is still appreciated and I recognize those as truth but I feel exhausted from having done everything possible to achieve these things. I'll still keep trying to do more but I guess in my case I've reached a point where I'm still married on paper, and still in touch with my husband every day when he calls to speak with our daughter, so I can't move on to a new relationship, and there's no one with whom to start a new relationship, yet I don't want to file for divorce either.
I feel that the DB process for me has reached a point where I likely need to do something proactive sometime in the next year to communicate with my husband about the way forward. I don't know yet what that is. I think the DB rules such as no relationship talks, give the other person space, etc.. are all good but after an extended period of time doing that with no results and no resolution there has to be some additional action. I don't think staying married and separated for years to come while my husband dates other women and I stay alone is a good deal for me, but I don't feel I could find a new marriage partner while I'm still married either. I know there are people out there who claim to be totally happy being alone and single but I can't say with an honest answer that I'm one of those people. As independent as I was before my husband, and as independent as I've been forced to become now, I don't aspire to spend my life alone. So the current situation of being alone while my husband is with another woman (or women) isn't sustainable.
There's no hard evidence, but I believe what happened is my husband's relationship with the other woman ended after he wanted a divorce in January. Then for a period of time when he invited us on a trip, hugged me, started acting nice again, etc.. I do believe we were headed towards reconciling. Then at some point recently I believe my husband either reconciled with the women he'd been dating or he found someone new. Currently my guess is he's dating someone again. He shipped the car that he bought for me here, that he'd been using, and it came last week. There was sand on the floor of the passenger's side which means he likely took someone to the beach. The navigation showed the name of some seafood restaurant on the beach as well. I doubt he met a new male friend who he's been going out with. Now this week he said he flew to the other coast for a course but he could very well be on a trip with his girlfriend. He says he's coming here this weekend but we haven't heard from him to know if it's happening.
So I guess I'm looking towards a way to end the limbo period. I plan to start seeing another counselor, asking for various opinions from various persons, and planning for the best way to engage my husband at some point about what we're doing to do. I'll probably wait to see where he gets a job and where he's going to live. Perhaps he'll file for divorce if his new relationship is going well. All I can say is that it's been exactly three years since my husband left the first time and 3.5 years since he started to get depressed and withdraw from the marriage. That's a long time be unloved and a long time to keep giving someone another chance to save the marriage. I'd still give him a chance if he wanted to work hard to fix what he's done and if he follows-through, but the current scenario where he's free to date and yet still married seems to work more in his favor than mine.
MWD says not to make an ultimatum unless you are prepared to enforce it. So setting a hardline ultimatum isn't anti DB.
I totally understand you wanting to have someone to share your life with - that is normal and perfectly fine. So is not wanting to give up on your marriage yet. Unfortunately it just leaves you in this tough spot for a while. Your patience is amazing.
Have you considering taking any different actions towards him? Like not answering his calls? If he really wants to talk to your daughter wouldn't he do it in person? It just seems crazy that he is running around the country with OW(s) but still gets to call you to play the loving dad.
Ovrrnbw, thanks. Yeah I don't feel prepared to make any ultimatums or enforce anything in the near future but I hope to open the door to some sort of communication with my husband about the best way forward sometime in the coming year. I have no idea yet what I'd say or how to say it. Perhaps he'll beat me to it although he seems to be gliding along just fine with our current arrangement.
I don't want to give up but if my husband still shows no interest going into the fourth year, and he continues to be so unstable job-wise and jumping from woman-to-woman, then this passive "give them space, no relationship talk..." DB approach after an extended period of time almost feels like it's enabling their behavior.
I've tried to really change how I interact with my husband a lot since April. I don't call him at all, don't ask any non-essential questions, don't show any special interest in what he's up to....I haven't stopped answering his calls because one of his big frustrations and complaints before he left was that I didn't I answer my phone. It only happened from time-to-time but whenever it happened he'd get mad saying "what if something happened and I really needed to reach you?" Fair enough, so I've been answering, or at least texting "will call back" when I can't answer, but I usually pass the phone straight to my daughter.
There's no hard proof my husband is running around with other women - there's only evidence that points in that direction. He might very well be alone at a course right now but there's just no way to know. Maybe he went to the beach with a guy he met at the gym. Maybe in his mind he's planning to come back at some point and he's busy trying to get a new job but the more likely scenario is that he's enjoying his freedom and taking full advantage of the opportunity to date whoever he meets as he goes along or maybe he's happily in a long-term relationship with the 26 year old again. Whatever the case, he's back off on the reconciliation path although he's still acting nice overall.
NIcole, I think your last paragraph sums it up pretty well... "the more likely scenario is that he's enjoying his freedom and taking full advantage of the opportunity...." He is. And as a fellow LBS, that $uck$ for us. And it seems like you have the same problem I have, namely not being able to gain emotional distance.
All I can tell you is that it does get better. Eventually, you will get tired of being in limbo, say enough is enough, and push the divorce forward on your own. When you reach that point is entirely up to you. There is no timeline, and no one can tell you when you will, or even should, reach that point. You'll know. There won't be any ultimatums at that point. You'll just say you've had enough, and file.
Two more thoughts... It seems to me that no WAH/WAW wants to reconcile until the LBS reaches the point of "I don't really care anymore." You're not there. You are still very attached, just like I was. Even then, your H may not want to return, but at that point, you'll be like, "so what?" I found that constant contact with W kept me on a string, so I dropped contact to those times I really needed to talk to her. You are doing the same thing. "What if something happened and I really needed to reach you?" Tough $hit. You really needed him to be a husband and now you can't reach him emotionally. He gave up the right to reach you when he moved out. That means you shouldn't be on call for his physical or emotional needs. If he has D, pick up then. Otherwise, he doesn't really need to reach you. If he's in trouble, he can reach out to his girlfriend. Tell him that. You can't think of any reason he would need to reach you instantly. He can leave a message, and you'll get back to him when it's convenient.
I know your D is kind of young, but can you possibly get her a cheap phone, maybe an old one of yours, that can be exclusively for H to call D on? That way you don't have to be involved at all in their phone calls.
Glad everything is moving forward N. Just take care of yourself, get some good rest when you are able to do it. We live a life thinking about getting to some place and forget to live the travel...
Enjoy your present as much as I know you enjoy your girl. Share that time with her. You are her role model.
Sending you and D a big hug and wishes for a shiny weekend.
Nic, you have so much patience. 3.5 years is a long time and WH seems to still be in his own la la land. Kudos to you for standing up for so long, I am already drained at 7 months, there are times I feel if he just went away from our lives for good it will be so much easier. Find happiness where you are and in who you are, rest will all just fall into place one day. (((Nicole)))
Hi Jim, thanks for your input. It's hard to gauge the level of attachment. We went from living together and managing our lives together just over a year ago to not speaking at all except about really essential practical matters that come from him. I called him once since April and that was on a night when our daughter was really ill and it would have cost a lot out-of-pocket to take her to the emergency room. That's the only time I called. All other interactions came from him and my responses were positive and pleasant but brief. I feel like I'm floating in space and any remaining attachment exists only in my mind.
I'm planning to seek counseling to figure out how to move forward. As I've been mentioning, the current approach isn't working. DB may have helped prevent a divorce but that's different than fixing a marriage, especially when the couple lives separately and one is likely actively in another relationship. I'm interested in getting some opinions as to whether someone like my husband can be 'rehabilitated' in the next 10 or 20 years. There are some differences between our situation and many here. My husband has been in relationships with two or more women in the last few years, so he's a serial cheater. He's left twice. He's failed in several areas of his life and he doesn't seem to be making changes to do better. He's also from another culture, as much as that doesn't matter, but it does in some ways. If someone like that is unable and unlikely to change then staying married won't alleviate my pain nor will it provide any incentive for my husband to change.
I would still do nearly anything to save my marriage if there's a chance to save it, but all these anniversaries - one year since he left again, ten years since he entered this country, almost ten years since we married, etc.. are a stark reminder of how great our lives together used to be and how hopeful we were about our future. Even last night I had a dream and we were together as a normal married couple as is still the case in most dreams. But I don't think the path I'm on towards saving my marriage is the right one.
All these anniversaries are making me feel much worse lately. This morning my husband called my daughter and told her he's flying here tonight and then asked to speak with me. He said he's planning to stop by to see our daughter on his way to his parents' house. I told him I already have plans, which I do, and he said he'll call later when he sees what time he gets in to ask if there's any chance to see our daughter. What can I say?There's no chance? She wants to see him and he wants to see her, so I can't stop that from happening, but I'm also not going to re-arrange my plans just because he decided to fly here today.
The worse news is my husband called his week and said it looks like he got the job here in our area that's close to his parents. He was happy and excited. I said "Great! Congratulations! I'm sure your family is happy about that." But I'm not happy. I don't want him to move here to this area. I don't want to see him more often or be reminded that he's nearby. I moved here to start over and now if he's going to be here that's going to make it harder to solidify everything I worked so hard to re-build in my life. I wish my husband and daughter could be closer and that he'd be a better father but he's so unreliable that I fear getting our daughter further entwined in his life will make her more confused. Selfishly it's also hard to accept the two of them being together more often while I'm excluded. Even with a great career and a full social calendar I'd drop everything to be with my loved ones but it feels like a punishment to left alone while they see each other more often.
For all these reasons I'll address these issues with a professional counselor and I'll re-assess my prospects and which approach seems most appropriate at this time and place. Since I've found in the past that counselors don't always have the best advice either I'll seek out additional resources and I'd be grateful for feedback from this board as well. The main issue I find here is that the same words of "move on" and "detach" help up until a certain point and then they no longer do. I feel really lonely after these three-and-a-half years of fighting for my marriage and trying to move on. Maybe I'm depressed. I'm not sure, but the usual advice and approaches from the DB book just don't seem to help anymore.
Sorry for such a negative sounding message but I guess significant anniversaries really do affect some of us more than we anticipate.
So much negative crap that you can't control. I agree with your decision to explore how to change things up. I wouldn't want to be stuck like this either.
Anniversaries suck when you're stuck in limbo, nothing you can do about that.
Do you need to speak to him at all? It just seems like it hurts you too bad. What would happen if he calls your daughter again, tells your daughter he'd like to talk to you, and you just said "no thanks"? Not talking, text, calling back my WW did a lot for me to take away the power she had over me. Your H might see it as a game as my wife did, but of course it's not, and you're doing it to protect yourself from him. It's a reaction.
Nicole, I wish we could snap our fingers and no longer be detached. That would make it so much easier. 25mlc first reminded me that the process is not linear. You are going to have bad days and weeks, but over time, the bad ones get shorter and further apart.
You mention that the current approach isn't working to save your marriage. I suspect your marriage is over and done. I don't think your H is coming back. I really wish I could tell you differently. You are going down a cheeseless tunnel trying to save it.
I think at this point, you might want to work on saving yourself. You are already doing a lot of what you need to do, like GAL, seeing a counselor. With time, it WILL get better.
Try to look at H moving closer as a blessing. I know it's hard to have your D spend time with him, and away from you, (and those times can be very lonely if you let them be), but they are also opportunities to get out and GAL. You can devote yourself fully to something.
Look at what you are writing Nic.... you are being very honest about your H negative qualities. I understand your desire to save your M but you have removed those rose colored glasses. Now I have no crystal ball to look into the future but I'm almost feeling that if your H did return you may find yourself having grown past him and no longer interested. ;-)
With that being said let's focus on the positives ---- regardless of what happens between you and your H your D will have the ability to have a good close relationship with her father with a job that's near by. He's spending less resources on having to fly to have time with her so that leaves the ability to put that money to better use on your D.
I get where you are coming from - you packed up to leave to give yourself distance and space to clear your head. How unfair of him!!!! But, you two are forever tied to co-parenting. That is a job that never leaves but changes and evolves over time. My step kids are either out of the house or nearly but my H will still have to deal with his exwife. While it may be less than currently my step kids will get married and have kids or need help moving - all areas that there will be contact and influence with the ex. You can't run away from the fact your share a child.
I don't believe you are as stuck as you think you are. I do feel the idea of a professional therapist as a win win!!! I think a therapist can help you to switch your focus from those negative anniversary dates that haunt you to positives that you have created since.
Remember the time frame is up to you. DB states that time is your friend. Remember the mistakes that occurred the first time your H returned home. Making that choice to choose that mistake again is rough (from both sides). If I remember correctly only since April you have you made real changes in how you interact with your H. 5 months isn't a super long time for someone to feel that change is genuine especially when there are strong memories of how bad it was the first time he came home. But, you are in control of the time frame and you get to say when enough is enough.
You are really starting to detach and remember... the moment you no longer want them is when they want to come home.
You are a tough cookie lady!!!! HUGS!
Ovrrnbw, thanks for your understanding. You know I sometimes don't answer or say I'm busy and my husband gets so mad, but it's usually because there's a specific question he needs answered. For the most part I answer and talk to him when he asks to talk but it's very minimal communication. I'll try to see if I can reduce it even more.
Jim, thanks for pointing out that it's a non-linear process. My situation is still better than it was before but the multiple anniversary reminders are so traumatizing. We were so happy before. We were inseparable. It's still a shock to compare our old life to what's happening now. Anyway yes it seems like a cheeseless tunnel to save the marriage. I think we all order the DB book because we want to save the marriage and I still want to save it, but following the DB guidelines hasn't achieved that outcome. That doesn't mean I will start to pursue and have relationship talks but it just means I need to identify the next best approach moving forward. I don't think my husband will return under the current circumstances but I feel he may try to return if he gets burned in enough relationships and dates enough hot 20 year olds to realize it's not the fantasy life he expected. If he reaches a point in the future where he realizes his life with our daughter and I is better than running around with whichever 20 year old he picks up at a bar then he may try to return, but that seems like a good couple of years from now. As mentioned if I knew that someone like my husband can be rehabilitated and can go back to being a wonderful husband after putting in hard work and re-committing I'd probably wait, but I need expert advice on whether a serial-cheater who keeps failing in his career and wasting money is likely to change. When my husband first left it was only for eight weeks but now this has been going on for years. I read that MLC's can last 5 - 7 years so maybe this is one explanation and he'll someday get out of the MLC, but there are a lot of uncertainties. That's why I'll try to see a therapist and look for more advice to figure out the best way forward. I'll keep trying to save my daughter and myself in the meantime.
KitKat, thanks for outlining the positives. That does help. Yes we have to co-parent and five months isn't that long although it's been three years since this all started. I tried to follow DB guidelines from September of last year but I got really sick physically and just surviving became more important than DB. Last November my husband was apologizing, then he met the woman he started dating when he wanted a divorce, then I finally moved in April, then he got nice again, and now he seems to be dating someone again so he's backed off with the reconciliation hints.
All, today my husband came briefly to visit our daughter. I had to sit nearby because we met in our building's club room because my husband is sick and we didn't want him to come into the apartment. He kept trying to ask me how my job is going, how I like the new car he sent, and about general things. Then he asked how much is the rent in my building and how far is the commute to where he'll be working. I gave him brief answers to everything but seriously? He's thinking of renting an apartment in my building? If he tries to do that I will have to say something. I don't want to see him in the hallways bringing home trashy women 15 years younger than me and I don't think our daughter should see that either.
I tried to remind myself tonight that a lot of my thoughts are based on my imagination because I have no idea what my husband is actually thinking or doing. Maybe he has good intentions for wanting to move here to be near our daughter but having him an hour away is already bad. Having him here in the building is just not an option.
I'm planning to take my daughter to Europe for an extended trip next summer so whatever happens I'm hoping I'll feel better when I go on that trip. I have many close friends in the particular destination where we're headed and I'd even consider staying there permanently if I can convince my husband to let our daughter stay there.
Anyway, it's a difficult time but I'll work hard to get professional guidance and I assume I'll know more about what will happen as my husband plans his move to this area. Thanks again everyone.
Hi Nic,
You have a lot of moving parts happening -with a lot of decisions to be made. Take the time to Breathe -slow down and figure out what is best for you and your D before making any rash choices. Know that we are all rooting for you. Blessings!
I don't think my husband will return under the current circumstances but I feel he may try to return if he gets burned in enough relationships and dates enough hot 20 year olds to realize it's not the fantasy life he expected. If he reaches a point in the future where he realizes his life with our daughter and I is better than running around with whichever 20 year old he picks up at a bar then he may try to return, but that seems like a good couple of years from now.
Reading this, it sounds to me like you're willing to let him have his cake, and when he's been through all the other, preferable, options, allow him back to work on your marriage. You're not the option of last resort! You deserve to have someone who knows your worth! I'm pretty sure as time goes by, you'll begin to see that HE is not worthy of YOU. When that happens, you will be ready to move on.
And like KitCat said, focus on the positives. You've come so far.
I thought maybe your H was thinking about moving in with you, and what that commute would be like for him, not him getting his apt. But you know better than I do, you were there.
It just seems so ridiculous that he'd be chatting you up like that. Did you respond or give him any info?
It's so hard to figure out how to "move on" without filing for D. And I'm in the same boat as you when it comes to that Nicole. I don't think either of us knows what to do and I know I have a hard to figuring out how to act when D is not yet an option.
LoneWlf, thanks. I won't make any rash decisions. This has been going for so long it seems like it'll never end.
Jim, just to clarify, I didn't mean that I'm waiting to take him back if he decides to return after all the 20 year old women. It just means I believe he could potentially try to come back at that point. I don't feel he's worthy already, but for over eight years he was an excellent fiancé and husband before all this started. Now he's repeated the same cycle of destruction for several years. That's why I'm curious to know if these types can be rehabilitated. Most of the books on stopping a divorce talk about measures to take in the short-term, and most examples on this forum are recent ones. I'm wondering what's the long-term trajectory for someone like my husband. It'll help in eventually forming conclusions over what's possible and what's not, or what's acceptable if reconciliation could ever occur or what's not. I want to consider both the short-and-long term. It's a lot easier to condemn someone else's spouse I've found, and to view them as unworthy, but hard when it's your own spouse in whom you've invested. It's not just about romantic love but there are practical matters as well - financial, child-wise, family-wise, and sunk costs. Right now all the options look bad so sometimes it's a question of what's the lesser evil. Is it a husband who screwed up and demonstrates real effort to change (if that's possible), another man who comes with his own risks, or a lifetime of loneliness and uncertainty? So many considerations...
Ovrrnbw, I don't think my husband has any plans to move in with us. Every time he comes here though he tries to talk to me and ask questions. I don't ask him anything but he tries to be friendly despite the brief time he spends here (an hour or two) and then the rest of the time is with his family. For me, at this point, moving on would be getting into a new relationship and looking for a new life partner. For that to happen we'd have to get divorced. I don't think anyone can claim to fully move on when they're still married unless they want to stay happily single for a long, long time.
All, I'm exhausted from everything. At some point I need to check-in with my husband in some way. I hope I can figure it out. I just don't want him moving to this area but I can't stop him. I can't have him passing by whenever it's convenient for him and then disappearing whenever he has a new woman or his girlfriend is visiting. I need to create more boundaries now if he moves here, and to do that I'll have to communicate with him, but I don't know yet what I'll say.
When he left yesterday I just couldn't look at him, smile, or say goodbye. I know that's probably a sign that I'm not detached, and by the time I see him in person and talk to him I can feel all the emotions coming back right as he's leaving. Then I can't say a single word. I don't know what he thinks about me but he had me download an app on my phone for the new car, said he's hoping his new employer will offer us better health insurance, saying he'll send more money, etc.. Most words and actions from him are kind and caring yet he hasn't mentioned anything about reconciling and he hasn't said he's sorry. The problem with no relationship talks over an extended period is lack of knowledge on both sides as to what the other may be thinking.
All, I'm exhausted from everything. At some point I need to check-in with my husband in some way. I hope I can figure it out. I just don't want him moving to this area but I can't stop him. I can't have him passing by whenever it's convenient for him and then disappearing whenever he has a new woman or his girlfriend is visiting. I need to create more boundaries now if he moves here, and to do that I'll have to communicate with him, but I don't know yet what I'll say.
Nicole, I can only imagine how exhausting it is with a child involved, and the length of your situation surely makes it that much more exasperating. You are doing a great job keeping it together. Don't beat yourself up for not fully detaching. Remember to practice self-compassion. We are all doing the best we can under difficult circumstances.
Obviously you can't control him or tell him where to live, but why can't you tell him exactly what you wrote above? That you would prefer him not to live in the area, and especially not in your building. If he is in the area you would want to set up a visitation schedule so that he is not just dropping by, no? What other boundaries would you want to set? It's really easy to stress out over conversations like these, and it is often far easier just to have the conversation and get it out. I have certainly found that was the case in my sitch.
You are incredibly strong and I feel confident in saying that a "lifetime of loneliness and uncertainty" is not in your future. With or without WH you have the power to create a rich and rewarding life. Now is the time to get a head-start on creating that life. Don't let WH or anything else get in the way of that life. You got this.
It's a lot easier to condemn someone else's spouse I've found, and to view them as unworthy, but hard when it's your own spouse in whom you've invested. It's not just about romantic love but there are practical matters as well - financial, child-wise, family-wise, and sunk costs.
Ya, Nicole, I get that. Especially since I suspect the people who looked at my thread are wondered why I'm still pining.
It's easy for me to sit behind a keyboard and vilify your H, but I should probably spend a little more time looking in the mirror.
Nic, i actually read your convo with him the same way as Ovr, asking about commute to his work from your building, maybe he was temp checking. Trying to see if you react, I think you handled it pretty well. The truth is you will have no control over him moving into the vicinity, in my sitch WH is introducing D3 to his 'friend' on video chats in less than a month of moving out. I have brought it up with him that I am not okay with it but again he continues doing it and i have absolutely no control. All I can do is provide stability and love to my Ds while they are with me. As hard as it is, try seeing positives to him moving to your building, your D will have a father she never had around, you will get some time for yourself. Be sure to talk about specific visitations as soon as it is finalized that he is going to move to the same city. Your D needs stability and it is healthy for her to see her dad more often. I feel for you when you say you do not want to be 'excluded' when your D is with him. I went through this too, I cried my eyes out the first 2 weeks he came and took the kids away. From the third week on, I am always ready myself to leave and GAL as soon as he takes the kids. it could be as simple as going to the gym or getting my eyebrows done, any option is better than staying home alone and pining for the children. In 7 weeks' time I actually have a schedule set for as soon as he takes the kids too. Hey when life gives WH, we got to make the most of it right. You are a strong girl, a wonderful mother and a great person. Enrich lives of those people who actually want to be a part of your life too. Hugs.
Davide, thanks. I'll try to tell him something like that. I need to rehearse it a bit more but I do think honest and straightforward requests are best. You know I'm doing great in my career and other aspects of life now but sometimes it doesn't matter. At the end of each day I'm alone once again and I still miss my husband.
Jim, I'm sure you loved your wife and she must have had a lot of great attributes. One of the challenges here is we only get to hear one side of the story. I'm sure your wife had reasons to be unhappy before asking for a divorce just as my husband had his reasons before he left. I'm sure you, I, and everyone here on this forum has our faults that drove our spouses crazy but in most cases married couples work those things out. When someone decides to end their marriage they kind of deserve to be vilified and it's natural to support the one who's been hurt. My husband deserves to be seen as a serial cheater who walked out on his wife and young child which is a despicable thing to do but marriage is about more than just feelings of love when you have joint property and assets, kids, and years of history together. I don't know. I'm trying to think about everything just as it sounds like you've done with the comprehensive divorce process.
Sia, it's nice to see you're one step ahead and you're already sharing custody and you're surviving. I have no idea yet what my husband wants in terms of time with our daughter but dropping by spontaneously can't be an option. I don't think he's planning seriously to live here in the same building. He's never helped with our daughter and I doubt he's willing to give up his freedom to start helping now so I assume his time with her will just be fun visits. I need to think more carefully about what's best for her and what's fair to everyone.
Sia and Ovrrnbw, I don't know if my husband's question about living here and the commute were temp checks. I don't think so, but I do question sometimes whether I'm interpreting his actions correctly. He's done a lot of bad, bad things but in the past six months he's sent all the money I asked him to send, even more than if we'd be divorced on many months. He calls our daughter almost every day now and visits every two weeks. He's moving here to our area. He sent me the car that he knew I wanted, which is nearly $1,000 per month like Ovrrnbw's car. He talks about his employment benefits in terms of "us." He's tried to be friendly and he seems interested in what's happening with me. Is he in limbo himself? Is he looking for signs that I'd be open to reconciling? I think the chance is really slim and more likely he's in another relationship. If that relationship ends though I expect him to consider his options further. I believe he's quite comfortable with how things currently stand - being married and separated with both freedom and a family to fall back on. It's all much better than it was in January 2018 and yet I still have no clue what lies ahead. I'm living as if he's gone forever but having him move nearby right on the verge of our 10th anniversary is going to be another challenge.
He definitely doesn't seem to know what the heck is doing or wanting IMO. I really wonder what is going through his head and heart. It's so hard to say. It's ridiculous too that we have to go through this.
I think keeping your expectations low is still the safest thing. Small improvements are good but it just [censored] to feel stuck forever. I wonder if he says "we/us" to throw you a crumb or what? If he didn't care about you at all he wouldn't be spending the money on you.
Ovvrnbw, my husband has always struggled with making decisions. I used to make all the decisions because he couldn't decide anything. It seems he can only decide something when there's a temptation as strong as a magnet, such as a beautiful 26 year old woman who makes herself easily available and offers him the opportunity to live wild and free. I struggle with making decisions too because none of my options seem good - if one was better than the others then it'd be easy. It's the same for you and your wife. You both need to make some serious decisions in the near future and it's easier to keep postponing them until you're sure that one option is better than the rest.
I think everyone here on this forum has a lot to learn about decision making processes and how emotions and perceptions can blind us from good decision making. We were all unprepared to be in the situations we're in and we probably made bad decisions that contributed to where we're at now, but we do have the power to change our own trajectories. The emotional attachments we have to our spouses are just so hard to break.
I've been reading your thread for a while Nicole, but haven't had a chance to weigh in. I am not as active anymore, but I am still keeping up with a few sitches.
What you said about sunk costs a little while back made me want to comment. Sunk costs should never be a consideration in decision making because they generally cannot be recovered. Only relevant costs matter that are happening right now. Sunk costs lead to biased decision-making precisely because the investment is seen as something more than it actually is. Of course you have sunk costs because you have to invest in a marriage to make it work. But that can't be recovered. Even if you R, you are starting a new venture and you cannot let sunk costs dictate how you will approach it because the dynamics have changed.
We hold on to things precisely because of sunk costs and weigh them more than what they are - costs that needed to happen to move forward or function.
So, look at the relevant costs for where you're at right now. How is his behavior currently costing you in terms of your time, emotions, mental stability, etc, and what is the return on you incurring that cost. What is your ROI? Sorry to put it into such crude project management terms, but an analytical approach can be helpful to determine what you should do. You are still operating under the impression that the sunk costs can be recovered if you repair your MR. But what you're not factoring in is current relevant costs that are not giving you a return. In fact, I would say that you, and most of us here, are at some point incurring debt towards ourselves rather than reaping modest rewards.
Sunk costs are necessary, but relevant costs are not.
Also, knowing that your H has been with other women in an intimate way, how are you managing that when thinking about a potential R if it ever happens. I am not wanting you to borrow potential problems from the future that may never come, but at least treat it as an intellectual exercise. Can you be with this man if he has slept with other women?
Hi Maika, thanks for taking the time to respond and share your rationale on sunk costs. You're right. I agree with what you're saying. I think I was approaching it from the angle of having sponsored my husband to come to the US, filled out all his and his family's immigration paperwork, assumed the role of financial provider for many years, etc.. It's hard to think about investing in another man in the future the way I did with my husband only to lose everything again, so in many ways it would be more practical to reconcile with my husband if possible vs. the other options like taking a chance with someone new or being alone. What you're saying is true though - there's currently no ROI (except the financial support and car). I already know my husband slept with other women when he left the first time and surely he's doing that again since he left last year. I could only be with him someday under certain circumstances and even then I'll never be as happy but as they say, the old marriage is dead so if we were to start over it'd be a whole other story. I don't really expect that to happen though, so these are all just mental exercises.
All, after all those posts I wrote, my husband called me the other morning crying and upset saying the job he got here was cancelled. Who knows why. Maybe they found out he was let go at his last job? In any case now he has to start searching all over again so he's back to square one. Apparently he was in the stage of reviewing his contract when they cancelled so he was sure he was moving here but apparently not. That's a relief for me.
Other update - some of you may remember me writing about the guy I met through work who lives in the UK. Well next week he and his colleagues are coming to my city to start our new project together with my company. It also turns out I have a friend from a different source who just got a job at his company (really bizarre!) and today she sent me a picture of her with him at their office. Just as I wrote to him to say I'm happy to see the picture he wrote to me saying he was happy to meet my friend and looks forward to meeting me. He also wrote on a messaging app asking "will I see you?" He's been talking about a dinner now since the first week we met and he started asking which night we can plan it and said we have to ensure we have this dinner (with our colleagues as well I assume!).
Given all the helpful input you've all shared I'd appreciate your help with this message this guy wrote to my friend and I:
"As she is American I suggested that we might have a shared music interest (insert name of band). Turns out that was not the case! However I do assume that you are a fan? Shame they are not playing around (name of my city) next week!"
What does that mean? That if the band was playing we could go see them together? But he asked my friend first so he's just being friendly? I responded and said sure I like that band and I asked if he shares my interest in a certain sport. I said if so, I'd like to invite him to a game next week (and I mentioned his colleagues could come as well since they'll all be staying together). He didn't respond yet as it was already late in the UK.
I also told him earlier I'll pick him up at the airport when he arrives and take him to his hotel. He accepted.
Perhaps I'm being too assertive but I'm somewhat determined now to have a great time with this guy. Suddenly I like him again and don't care about his age and it seems he's not quite as young as I thought. If anyone could share their view as to whether he sounds just friendly or interested I'd appreciate it. I'd hate to be totally off-base. This is the first guy I've liked other than my husband in over 12 years so I feel nervous.
Nic,
Sounds like you are doing well- way to take charge! It's not being too assertive -it is being confident. Look at this as just an outing and go into it with an open mind with no expectations. I'm interested to see how this pans out- please keep us posted. Blessings!
Lonewlf, thanks for your encouragement. This is all just for fun so I'll try to keep an open mind and have no expectations. I just hope I can discern between what's friendly and what's a sign of interest. Right now I have no idea!
That’s the attitude N! Open mind and no expectations. Just enjoy it girl, just that. Great!
Haha I'm loving the work boyfriend. I hope he bumps up your confidence. It sounds like he's putting out some bait or "feelers". I'd see where the friendship goes. Just don't get too excited or invested and enjoy yourself.
It's terrible that your H still calls to cry. Like your supposed to be there for him when he is literally never there for you. I wouldn't like that arrangement.
Nicole,
Good to hear your update. It sounds very positive over all.
In terms of the sunk costs with your husband I can relate. I did so much leg work on getting my wife's visa to come over, and took time off from work just one year ago to attend her naturalization ceremony. Not to mention all the the time, love, energy, and support that we both invested in the relationship. Letting go of those sunk costs is hard. I think that is what causes me to still be resentful of my W's choices. I can accept that I will never get that money, love, or time back and am ready to move on from it, but it's hard to forgive.
In terms of the new work "friend," it's hard to tell on here if it is flirtatious or simply very friendly. It definitely sounds like something you should pursue and see where it goes. No expectations. At the very least it is GAL, and if it turns into something more, even better! I've always found that that is the best way to date - don't weigh things down with expectations but enjoy the process of going out and meeting new people and having different experiences.
I'm glad to see that good things are coming your way. Enjoy!
Who knows if he's interested romantically. Who cares? Enjoy his company and see where it goes.
As far as your husband calling. I'm not sure what to tell you. Tell him "Since you left me, I'm no longer available for you to cry on my shoulder"?, or validate and hope he remembers how wonderful you are? Right now, I think the former.
Nicole - as much as I sympathize with what you had to do to bring your H over here, you're still elevating those actions as 'special' sunk costs compared to them functioning as 'actual' sunk costs. You would not have had your marriage without it. Because it was an added layer of what you needed to do compared to someone who married someone else from the same country and didn't have to do that, you are investing more value in those costs than what they are - simply as a function to maintain your relationship and then get married. Please don't give them more weight than they deserve. This is a slippery slope as people can start making justifications for those sunk costs - i supported them through university until they got a degree and left; i was a stay at home parent and allowed them to advance in their career; and keep adding to that list.
Everyone can have a rationalization of why their sunk costs are 'special' compared to someone else. Don't do that and add to an already difficult situation.
Nic, I understand what you mean by sunk costs. I feel that too, we had to endure hardships together, stay with each other when we were still trying to settle down and establish our careers and pay off loans and finally when we are supposed to have life on auto pilot the WHs walked out on us. But I have started seeing it in a different light too. Life is ever changing, there are challenges at every phase albeit a different nature. No matter who we are with, life challenges are not going to go away. Waywards cut and run, we as LBSs must learn to just cut our losses at that point on. How long do you want to stay aboard on a sinking ship. I read an article where happiness is compared to a ballon, the lighter you are from your conscience, the bigger your balloon is and you will fly higher. The waywards typically are depressed because their guilt is like holes in their happiness balloon, while they are pumping it with air being with OP there is also a constant leak. LBSs have holes in the balloons too, from betrayal and deceit but healing is faster once we patch up the holes with letting go band aids. Make your balloon lighter Nicole, fly high with your D, leave WH behind, he has to learn to fix his own balloon
Hey Nic - how are you doing?
Hi Everyone,
KitCat, thanks for checking in.
I really hope to find time to sit down these next few days and respond to everyone's threads. I got back-up with deadlines and events with my daughter recently and each day has to be perfectly regimented to get everything done but I hope to stay on top of everything better.
There's not really any news regarding the situation with my husband. Since he didn't get the job in our city he's still in his state searching for jobs. Tomorrow he's supposed to stop by and visit our daughter while he's here visiting his family.
Yesterday I met the guy I've been working with who is based in the UK. We had a team meeting at the office and a dinner in the evening. I felt like I must have misunderstood something after I didn't hear from him for over a week and he didn't confirm that I'd meet him at the airport. When I met him yesterday morning he stood really close, like his face touching mine, and spoke into my ear that he was sorry he didn't e-mail me. I was late arriving at the dinner last night and when I reached he was sitting at the end with one empty chair next to him. There was another chair empty across from him next to my female colleague, also from Europe, who I never met before yesterday either. I felt it was more appropriate to sit next to her. He asked a lot of questions and we talked for a long time but he had to leave early due to jet lag and a work deadline. Towards the end he got up and left for a minute, then came behind my chair and put his arm around me and touched his face against my face and spoke again into my ear that he'll e-mail me and we'll meet on Thursday. He said some other stuff that I couldn't really comprehend. I observed that he didn't get close to my female colleague or the guys who were with us. But my two female colleagues who know him in the UK keep saying he's so great, such a gem, etc.. so maybe he uses this technique on most attractive women or is he interested in me? He didn't invite me to meet one-on-one while he's in town but we're meeting again tomorrow at a coffee shop with my boss and his colleague. I wish I had more wisdom to understand men but either he's really friendly, a ladies man, or he's semi-interested but not enough to meet alone. I'm not sure what others may have told him about my situation but he didn't ask.
Anyway, that's about it. I was happy that for a brief time yesterday, the first time since I had my daughter, I went out at night and celebrated with colleagues and met this guy who I've wanted to meet for the past few months.
Um, Nicole, guys don't do that unless they're interested. You're not sure what others have told him about your situation, but I bet he's asked, and already has some idea. Maybe leaving early was a too subtle hint that you should offer to share a cab.
You don't mention how you responded. If you were aloof, reserved, or stand-offish, maybe he didn't ask to meet one-on-one because he doubted your interest. I know it was a business dinner, and you couldn't be overt, but maybe you should invite him to meet one-on-one. It's not 1950 anymore. Did you find hm attractive or interesting? If so, when he gets close to talk to you, lean in to it a little, and put your hand on his upper arm, and pull him in just a bit, like you can't quite hear what he's saying. Flirt, girl! Flirt! (But not at work!) I encourage you to enjoy his attention for the time he's here.
I think it's wonderful you were able to get out and enjoy yourself as Nicole, and not as someone's mommy or wife. It's time to step more fully into that role.
As an added bonus, since H is there, ask him to watch D while you meet a "colleague". I say that a little tongue in cheek, but in all seriousness, it wouldn't hurt to ask, for two reasons. 1) it would actually give him some more time with your D, and 2) maybe he should realize that you have options, too.
Nicole,
It's nice to hear your update. The actions you describe are those of a man who is clearly interested in you. I think Jim is on the money when he encouraged you to reciprocate by flirting back if you like him. It might be that he has heard about your sitch and might be wary of being too forward. Give him signs that you are interested.
Regardless of what happens with him, it is great to hear that you are putting yourself out there and getting on with your life and enjoying yourself. Take that happy moment and build off it.
Yeah!!!
Take your time to enjoy the situation. We all know your way of thinking N, just relax and see what’s coming. You are in control of yourself girl and we, the DBiers, are with you. Feel the force!
I will also chime in and add my perspective as a guy. This man is definitely interested. Enjoy the company and as others have said, if you want to spend time with him, you need to give him some sign. Ask him out for a one-on-one. He's kinda feeling you out to see if you have any interest in spending time with him.
I just want to say that this is so awesome. A while back you were worried how you don't match up to standards of beauty and your age. Let this be the clearest sign you can see - there are men who find you interesting and attractive. You have one RIGHT now who is interested in you. You have tons of value and things to offer as a woman and a person. Please enjoy yourself, whatever version that is for you with him.
Hi Jim, Davide, Neffer, and Maika,
Thanks for taking the time to share your input as men and as people who understand the unique challenges of suddenly finding yourself single after many years of marriage and not really knowing how to navigate the single world.
I don't really think this guy is interested. Today didn't go well actually. I asked to do the meeting today so the CEO of my company could join before he leaves town. Then this guy said he's busy today asked to change the meeting to tomorrow to be just me and him. Good sign right? Then my boss asked me to cancel the meeting tomorrow because I'm new at our company and he said we can't trust this guy and his company because they're our direct competitor. This was a totally unexpected mentality because two nights ago we were all friends having a great time together. Maybe he observed we were interested in each other and thought there'd be collusion?
So I e-mailed my friend and said we need to cancel the meeting (everyone was copied to the e-mail). Then I called him privately and said my boss doesn't want me to have the meeting alone with him but I said I still want to see him. We talked about meeting for lunch tomorrow or tonight before he goes to a dinner with his college friends. We kind of settled on tonight because I said I didn't want to be too obvious heading out tomorrow in case people figure out I'm meeting him. Then a few minutes later he sent me a message saying the dinner is earlier than expected so tonight won't work. He said he'll be back in a few weeks so we'll meet then. He said the other guy with him would still like to see me tomorrow.
Sorry to bore everyone with those details. I don't think he's interested though because if he was he'd make time to meet tonight. I'm also disappointed that the CEO of my company ruined what was a great dynamic between our teams. I don't know how that'll affect everything moving forward.
Now my husband is here so I hope to have a few minutes to respond to others' threads.
I feel compelled to write one more update. My husband was here earlier and our daughter came and asked me to stand up. Then she pulled my husband over and made us hug each other. It was so sweet and innocent of her but I just started crying. I know that's the worst thing that could happen but it's been a rough day if you read the last post above. On top of everything my husband said he found a different job in our area right near his family's house so now he's back to moving here again in a month or two.
Tomorrow I'll meet the friend of guy that I've liked. I hope to at least try to smooth over the relationship between our companies but I'm just so disappointed that everything fell apart.
It’s ok to cry N. There’s no big deal. It’s about you now, about expectations. You are stronger than you think.
Sending you a (((hug)))
Your daughter is so sweet. I wish I had a happy little family, but I don't and none of us do right now. That's ok...
Well, I wouldn't rule out he colleague's interest in you. You never know what is going on. He could be really tired or stressed or who knows.
Do you think your husband moving home is going to be good/bad or how is that going to change things? Is he going to stop in more frequently when he moves?
Nic,
Just got back from out of town. I got caught up on your thread, from my perspective I think the guy is interested but I would still still you to proceed with caution. As for your daughter- wow! So now you can see what she truly wants. I know my S wants the same. One thing that's for sure we still have to remain positive ! God bless!
Nicole,
I don't read the guy's actions as disinterest. It sounds like the relationship between the companies is complicated and that makes it trickier to start something. If he is coming back in a few weeks and wants to meet, why not be open to it but with no expectations? If he bails again you can let it go, but don't assume that from the get go.
I'm sorry to hear WH is moving back to the area. Distance truly does help with detachment. All you can do is make the best of it. Don't worry about the crying. We all need to let it out from time to time.
D
Hugs Nic, you are having a difficult day and I know how much all this hurts. Try seeing WH moving to your city as a good thing, I understand you feel it’s not but may be there are some positives, your D will get to spend more time with her father and let him man up and do something for her. He is her father after all you shouldn’t let him wash his hands off of all responsibilities. Try seeing it as you get some time for yourself
I felt this other guy is definitively interested and was gauging your reaction and taking it slow. Again all good right, nobody should rush into these things, see it for the confidence booster it is and let time sort out this R for you.
I know it’s so hard and it’s so very long for you, be strong my dear
Thanks so much Neffer, Ovvrnbw, Davide, Lonewlf, and Sia for taking the time to respond and for your encouragement.
I met the friend of the guy I like (his colleague) on Friday. It seems the guy I like is offended or bothered by what happened according to what his friend implied. We were talking about our relationships and his friend also said the guy I like has a casual on / off again relationship with a woman from his home country but he refers to her as 'just a friend.' So for sure he has his own issues and complicated love life just like we all do here.
It's hard not to think about what happened with this guy at work. I didn't hear from him for over a week before he came, then he seemed interested in person, then he arranged that we'd have our meeting alone on Friday, then my CEO canceled it, now we didn't see each other again and he left the city without a single word. I think I did my best to show him I was interested (asked to pick him up at the airport, invited him to a sports event, offered to meet him socially after our meeting was canceled, etc.. {and none of those things happened}). I'm not devastated or super sad because this is nothing compared to what I've been through with my husband, but I feel unlucky that my CEO blocked the meeting because I wanted to see him. I'm not planning to date or marry him - even if he liked me I wouldn't want things to progress because it's not practical. He's younger and has no kids and his life is totally different than mine. If I were to ever be in another relationship it'd have to be with someone more mature who can relate better. I just like him and wanted to enjoy our time together while he's here.
I feel so unprepared to be single and clueless about men. It's nice to hear that you all thought the guy from work sounded interested but I had one long-term relationship before my husband and then my husband and in both cases I never had to question for a second if either guy was interested. They made it really clear they were. So I don't think I'll give further consideration to a guy who sends such mixed signals because to me mixed signals means not interested.
My husband left again today after a short visit. There's nothing to report at all. We had minimal interaction. I get mad every time I see my husband glued to his phone when our daughter is trying to talk to him or spends time with him. He did send me extra money after he left today and he called me late the other night to ask a question that really wasn't time sensitive, so he's still better than before, but it's again frustrating with the mixed signals. He doesn't want to get divorced, doesn't want to reconcile..... Again I guess mixed signals mean not interested.
It's generally hard not having anyone special with whom to talk or spend time. I wish I could find such a person as some of you have done.
I'm planning to invest in a babysitter to attend the local divorce care group this coming week. I don't think I'll be able to go often but I wish to see what the group has to offer and see if I can meet anyone there in real life like those of you here in this forum.
Thanks again for your input!
Btw I just realized how badly written my last message was. I write so fast and I went back-and-forth about the same topic. I'm upset but not totally devastated - I'll try to make my messages more reader-friendly and write better in the future!
So maybe this guy lost interest. Maybe he saw some of the same incompatibilities you did, and decided to pass. It happens, and you move on. I'm sure there will be others who are interested. You say only one other guy and your H made it crystal clear they were interested. I suspect there were a lot of more subtle signals from a lot of guys that you missed. Maybe they were waiting for an overt sign that you were interested before they gave you one. Been there, Done that.
As far as H being on the phone around your D, I strongly suggest you mention it to him. He may blow you off, but he might not be aware of how much it happens.
I think it's wonderful you're finally going to a divorce care group. You need to do more fun GAL activities, and this might open some doors for you. At our age, it's harder to make friends, and you have to work at it a little by going to things like these.
And don't worry. No one's judging your writing skills.
No worries on the style, I kinda like it because our thoughts aren't always organized or linear. So the love prospect fizzled a bit? Well, there will be more. And you being "clueless" about men is just a feeling of unease from everything going on IMO. You know plenty about men, you married one!!!! Like you said, when a man truly is interested, you won't have to question it and you will know.
I will commiserate with you on not having the special someone to spend time with. I like the group you're looking at joing too. You never know what good may come of that.
Why did your H leave you extra money? And yes, if it wasn't for mixed signals, we'd have no signals it seems.
Nic -
I think the divorce support group is a fabulous idea. A great place to start... to see if you can find a local support network that can give you help in finding good child care, inexpensive get togethers, etc.
(FYI - my mom met her H at a similar church type group and they have been married for over 25yr now... she was only married to my dad for 21yr... :-) )
So.... I like to think of life as chapters in a book. I feel the chapter with the work guy thing as showing that you are out of practice in romantic relations. I get that you had 1 serious relationship prior to your H but the new Nic isn't going to wait for some guy to fall into her lap. The new Nic is going to have a list of must haves and deal breakers. You have a D to look after so the next guy has to be stellar... Nic its going to be more like a long job interview for sure. As I tried to point out earlier you are going to have to put yourself out there and practice, practice, practice. The work guy was you just dipping your toe in the water before jumping in!
You are at a complicated state. You aren't quite ready to throw away your H and not ready to sit and be a spinster with no adult to share your life with. The fact that you are even thinking about future men shows that you are willing to walk away from the current state you are in - that's a good thing.
You need to keep working on sorting your current state of affairs but don't be afraid to put yourself out there. That's why I think a divorce support group thing is fantastic. And, if you get there and this group is full of Debbie Downers... then don't stop... look for another!!!
You've come a long way.
Hi all, thanks for your responses. I wanted to take time to respond to as many of your threads as possible so mine will just be a short update and I'll respond to your recent messages first next time.
Today is the 10th wedding anniversary for my husband and I. I never imagined I'd spend it alone like this. We had so many hopes, dreams, and so much love for those first six or seven years.
My husband called recently and asked if it's ok if he doesn't come for Thanksgiving or Christmas due to the high cost of tickets. What can I say? I said sure whatever. I guess either he's planning to spend those holidays with his girlfriend or he has some other events planned with whoever he's dating.
I'm still disappointed by what happened with the guy I liked at work. I had to e-mail him about something today and he responded in about 20 seconds so we're still in touch. It seems things had been going well right up until my company's CEO forced us to cancel our meeting. This guy is someone special and I doubt I'll meet anyone like him any time soon, but it wouldn't have worked out anyway so I'm not too devastated.
I've been busy and tired lately, wondering how I'll ever sustain this lifestyle of doing everything on my own. I'm trying to make my daughter the #1 priority but when you work full-time you also have to meet and exceed your employer's demands and still keep up with cooking, cleaning, errands, chores, etc... It still feels unfair to be so tired that I see double sometimes and to think my husband has total freedom to date, sleep, go to the gym, dine at fancy restaurants, etc..
One issue I've been struggling with is some friends and family members being offended that I've been too busy to respond to them quickly or to see them. I feel so terrible, so guilty, and yet I don't have a way to help them understand that I'm doing my best and really wish to see them if I could. I also received a mean accusatory text from my mother about remember my father's birthday and it made me think perhaps I sent similar texts to my husband due to learning such behavior from my mother and it's one of the factors that pushed him away (along with the other women who pulled him away).
Life is difficult. I'm still doing my best and trying to offer my daughter fun and educational activities every night and weekend but I wish someday to have a break even for a few hours. I've been getting a babysitter from time-to-time but just to have a babysitter come requires cleaning the apartment beforehand, cooking dinner, and being back by a certain time so it's not really a free pass.
I'll respond to your responses above as soon as possible. Thanks again everyone!
Good to hear from you Nicole!
I'm sure the anniversary must be hard. I hope you took some time for yourself to grieve, but also tried to do something fun or nice for yourself.
I understand keeping your expectations low, but I wouldn't write off the guy from work yet. Isn't he coming back to town at some point? I would just keep an open mind.
I can't imagine how hard it must be to go through this process as a single working parent, like so many of you here. I do think it is important to take some time for yourself each day. I know that carving out that time can feel impossible, but it is important to recharge your batteries and to check in with yourself emotionally. Regarding friends and family members, they must understand how difficult your situation is and how pressed for time you are. I would be honest with them about how hard it is for you and how you wish you could be in closer contact. If they can't accept that and are still offended, that's on them and they don't sound like people you need in your life right now.
Take care of yourself, and enjoy your time with your daughter.
You are doing well Nicole. Just keep moving forward. Remember your posts from the past...it´s getting better. Enjoy the ride N, enjoy D, keep moving forward.
Today is the 10th wedding anniversary for my husband and I. I never imagined I'd spend it alone like this. We had so many hopes, dreams, and so much love for those first six or seven years.
I'm sorry you have to be alone on this night. Do something nice for yourself.
I'm still disappointed by what happened with the guy I liked at work. ......This guy is someone special and I doubt I'll meet anyone like him any time soon,
You said things like "I'll never meet anyone like my husband" a few times, and after what, three months on your own, you met another guy you were attracted to? So it didn't work out. Give yourself a chance.
There will be others.
One issue I've been struggling with is some friends and family members being offended that I've been too busy to respond to them quickly or to see them. I feel so terrible, so guilty, and yet I don't have a way to help them understand that I'm doing my best and really wish to see them if I could.
You are doing the best you can. If they can't see that, then they have the problem, not you.
Hi everyone, I've been trying to find a chance to post for the past few weeks. There are no major changes here. It's challenging working full-time, trying to excel in my career while spending as much time with my daughter as humanly possible. Then there are all the errands, cooking, cleaning, etc.. and doing it all alone requires more strength than what I have sometimes.
My husband came a few weeks ago and when he left my daughter started crying terribly so I carried her out to the hall way to my husband as he was leaving. He turned around and he was crying too. He left again after a minute, then called to say his flight was delayed and he was coming back for a few more minutes. When he came back our daughter asked if he's going to live with us again and he said "I promise next year I'll be here." Now that could mean here in the same city or maybe he's open to moving back someday but obviously there's no way to know what he's thinking. After that night he seemed to feel a greater sense of attachment to our daughter and he's been calling more. He doesn't call to socialize with me but he's taking a greater interest in our daughter's life.
This weekend my husband is visiting. This morning we went for breakfast together, he, our daughter, and I. Now he's here setting up an early Christmas tree with our daughter.
About two weeks ago my husband called me one morning upset about a financial issue asking me what to do....it seems like when it comes down to serious issues he still calls me by default.
It's like we're living two separate lives but we're connected by just a thread.
I just don't know the end to this. It still seems everything is working in his favor. I've moved on as much as I feel is possible. It's a very lonely feeling at night but the one thing I've done is go to the office almost every day where I can socialize with colleagues and I have neighbors and friends visiting after work pretty much every day. Our weekends are full of activities but I feel burned out. It seems like just a beautiful dream that I once had a husband and very briefly a husband and daughter at the same time.
When my husband used to live with us he'd walk around the house eating apples and there'd always be apple seeds all over the floor. Last night after my husband left I stepped on an apple seed just like old times. I picked it up and set it aside. I'd normally be in tears over something like that, but I just felt numb. Maybe it's a sign of progress. A lot of time has passed now, but it seems like there'll be no major developments any time soon.
What you're doing is so hard but worth it. If I may make some suggestions, you mention feeling burnt out, what would give the emotional recharging you need? Can your husband take your daughter for a week and...you know, parent? If you're not taking care of yourself then you're neglecting your child's primary caretaker. Your WH sounds like he still feels a connection to you, the fact that he calls you for advice is a good sign.
You say there are no major developments but it seems you've made your home a good place for you and your daughter. You WH has started coming to the home to see his DD and reestablish a connection. He is feeling the repercussions of being absent from her life and not liking it. For him to come to an eventual point where he feels the pain of his decisions then he will also have to come to the point of feeling safe to reconnect. A lot of these walk-aways don't come back because they fear having to pay the price for the rest of their life. Our job as the stable, healthy partner is to put our pain and need for justice aside and pave the way back. Walk-aways usually have narcissistic traits (at best and full blown personality at worst) so their egos are brittle. They can gain insight however, and eventually become strong enough to heal themselves.
You're doing great, just a bit of burn out. It's ok if your DD eats oce cream for dinner sometimes. It's ok if your evening activity is vegging on the coach and watching chic flicks while she plays on the floor with toys. Boundaries include telling your friends you can't make the meetup due to tiredness. Keep up the good work, you're doing great.
Nicole,
Good to hear from you again! It sounds like you are doing well. Like PsySara says make sure to take some time for yourself. Obviously you want to be a great mom and spend as much time with your daughter as you can, but to be the best mom you can be, you need to take care of yourself, recharge your batteries, do some fun adult things.
Your husband is still living far away right, in another city? Why is he calling you for financial advice? I would shut that down myself. That's on him at this point. Let him lead his life and fail on his own if that is what it comes to.
Stay in touch!
Nicole,
Good to hear from you again! It sounds like you are doing well. Like PsySara says make sure to take some time for yourself. Obviously you want to be a great mom and spend as much time with your daughter as you can, but to be the best mom you can be, you need to take care of yourself, recharge your batteries, do some fun adult things.
Your husband is still living far away right, in another city? Why is he calling you for financial advice? I would shut that down myself. That's on him at this point. Let him lead his life and fail on his own if that is what it comes to.
Stay in touch!
Hi Nicole, it's good that your H is sniffing and asking your opinion. All you can do is to continue to do all that you can. That sounds dumb I think, but you can't worry too much. And I hate to be DB cliche but these situations take a long time to sort out, so the best thing you can do is to not worry about what you can't control.
How was he acting at breakfast and while they were setting up the tree?
Hi PsySara, thanks for your input! It's reassuring to know my daughter can eat ice cream for dinner every so often because as much as I cook, every so often she refuses to eat. I give up sometimes and give her ice cream. She's happy but I always feel terrible about it. If it were an option for my husband to take my daughter for a week I'd consider it now that she's getting closer to five years old. I don't think it'll work any time soon though (he's 1,000 miles away for one thing). I'm trying to simply say no more often to activities and social gatherings but as I noted in a previous post, a few friends and family members became offended that I'm busy. I don't know what I can do about that. They have no way to understand what it's like to be in this position.
PsySara I believe what you're saying about paving the way back. I made it easy the first time but then I made a lot of mistakes once he came back that pushed him away further. I think he's probably sure it'd be the same situation again if he came back again. I'd like to envision what it could be like the second time but it's hard. I don't know if coming back has ever been on his mind. I don't know if it's premature to think about it as a future prospect? I'll share an update about today in a minute though.
Hi Davide, what you say is true. I've spent so, so much money lately on babysitters for school closures that I honestly don't have the means to do much in terms of going out but I'll try. I think I'll be happy though to do less social stuff for a while as a means of recharging (and probably saving money too). Or, if anything, I'd like to have a housekeeper again as I once did. I guess we each have our own dreams about how to recharge! For me having someone else clean is probably the greatest help. And yes, my husband is still in another city. I think he calls sometimes when something's wrong as kind of an auto-response. I wasn't able to help much the last time but then I had a financial issue recently and he was honestly supportive and helpful. I haven't gone out-of-my-way to help when he calls but I don't hang up on him or anything. I listen and try to show kindness but that's about all.
I do want to mention that today went well with my husband's visit. We walked to a restaurant together each holding one of our daughter's hands. We were relaxed at the restaurant and we enjoyed our time. When we came back my husband took our daughter to get a (fake) Christmas tree and he helped her set it up and decorate it. Then he stayed here while I took my daughter to a party and he washed his own dishes and sent me money to buy some German pans he said would be good. I had a bad sore throat later in the afternoon and I wanted to lay down so my husband took our daughter out. As they left he said "I won't be late, give me a call if you need anything." This is the same statement he's used every time he's gone out ever since I met him. Everything felt normal, like we were a family again. Then he left for the airport without much in terms of a goodbye but he called from the airport and we conversed a bit.
Over the past six months I've said I'm sorry several times for things that I've done wrong in the marriage. Each time my husband has said it's ok and he's not upset. There's no apology from him or any sign of wanting to reconcile but no sign of divorce either.
Last week my husband talked about taking us to an amusement park this weekend and his brother's family would join us. It didn't happen but he obviously thought it'd be fun. He says he'll come on Christmas morning and stay for five days (although probably sleep at his family's house I imagine).
I've said a few times that I believe this Thanksgiving will be revealing because it's my husband's favorite holiday with a lot of great memories. He's not going to be here but we'll see if he calls or seems to show any emotion.
As I keep mentioning I feel I have to confront my husband in some way or another at some point in the next year if he doesn't do it first. I identified a psychiatrist friend of ours from my husband's home country who I feel will be the best one to advise me on how to go about this although I haven't reached out just yet.
I hope someday there is news to share here. I'd still love to reconcile with my husband if it were ever a real option (not just him coming home and acting the same way but actually working towards rebuilding our lives together). My husband might well be in another relationship right now (or multiple ones) but I'd like to think those relationships fail and he gets burned out he might someday appreciate what we once had.
Nicole,
It sounds like you are doing the best you can in your (tough) situation. I hear you about the cleaning! I bought one of those robot vacuum cleaners just to take care of all the hair my dog sheds throughout the house.
I've said a few times that I believe this Thanksgiving will be revealing because it's my husband's favorite holiday with a lot of great memories. He's not going to be here but we'll see if he calls or seems to show any emotion.
I would be careful with this. One of the rules of DB is not to put any expectations on things. Don't build this up in your mind, and don't read into what he does or doesn't do.
As I keep mentioning I feel I have to confront my husband in some way or another at some point in the next year if he doesn't do it first. I identified a psychiatrist friend of ours from my husband's home country who I feel will be the best one to advise me on how to go about this although I haven't reached out just yet.
What do you mean by confronting him? Do you mean pushing for resolution of the sitch? In my mind that is akin to moving forward with D. Are you ready for that?
Been a while since I've seen you Nic. Having caught up on my reading I'll say for far it hasn't worked out with the guy from work but who knows what the future will bring. I'm also with you on how overwhelming things are with work /kids/ upkeep/ errands and to top that GAL. What works with me is getting to the gym early (5am) so this becomes my gift to me everyday. I'll tell you with this new job -it has become a little harder but we must persevere. I am with you in that we must take our energy and focus on what is best for the kids and i think you have done that. Sending you and your daughter (((HUGS))).
Hi Nicole, good to see that you are doing fine. Your limbo has lasted for so long, and your H continues to send these mixed signals. Either way the MR goes, it is time he owns up and takes some responsibility for the upbringing of your D. I understand it will be hard to stay away from her, believe me, I live that misery, but for your own sanity and for her overall well being it is important to have a stable father in her life. I do hope he meant that he will be moving somewhere close enough to actually spend some more time with his D. Well until he gets his head back on his shoulders, you continue being the rock star mom you are. (((Nicole)))
Thanks Davide, LoneWlf, and Sia for your kind words. Davide - I don't know what a confrontation would entail but now we've been separated for 14 months without any plan for reconciling or divorcing. I feel at some point there needs to be at least a conversation about what we're going to do. Lonewlf I'll see if the guy from work wants to meet when he's back here again or when I go to his home country. Sia, there's no update regarding my husband moving here or taking on more responsibility but he has been paying for everything I've asked him to pay related to our daughter. He says he's coming on Christmas morning and he'll stay for five days so we'll see if that happens.
All, I didn't hear from my husband at all on Thanksgiving aside from a text asking if he should order something for our daughter on Black Friday. It was such a depressing day visiting my family and having them all ask where my husband is. Then the day after Thanksgiving I get a text from my husband at almost midnight saying "Hi. Are you still awake?" I was sleeping at the time so I didn't respond and he didn't ask or say anything the next day. It doesn't seem like he was texting about something related to our daughter because normally he'd just come out and say what it is. I wish I'd been awake because it would have been interesting to see what he had to say.
Nicole, your H still seems to be lost deep in the fog and you are doing all you can. I know its especially hard during the holidays. What kind of a father thinks his duty is to buy something on black friday for his D and not actually spend the time with her? Anyway its his burden to carry. Lots of love and hugs to you and your D.
Nicole,
After 14 months your family still doesn't know about your sitch? I can only imagine how hard it would be to keep up that facade after so long.
I'm sorry that your H is still so out of it. But, let that text go. Our mind's tendency is to read into those things, but we know how fruitless that is.
Give yourself and your D a big hug from me as well!
Nothing but hugs for you Nicole.
Just like me, I don't see anything changing for you until you get fed up with waiting and make it change.
I'm not sure why you haven't told your family. At this point it may help you feel better to air it out.
As for your husband, he's in lala land still. How are you feeling inside?
Are you getting out with friends at all? I know finding someone to watch your daughter was a big thing, but maybe there's activities she can attend? I dunno, I'm not a parent but I think if there's a will there's a way.
Thanks all for your responses. Regarding my family, I'm not close to them. My mother was, and still is, an abusive and unhealthy person to be around. I've had to reduce contact to the bare minimum over the years. My father enables her behavior and is very awkward to be around. My whole family has a rural, small-town mentality where they involve themselves in others' business, gossip, blame, judge, and create a lot of drama. I told them I moved here for work and for my daughter to attend a better school and my husband will move up eventually.
I don't see a good reason to involve my family - they're not people who I can count on for support and in fact they'll make everything worse. It's one of the reasons this is so hard. I lost my husband and I don't have a supportive family either. I feel so sorry for my daughter that it's just her and I. My husband's family cut-off contact and my family isn't healthy to be around. I feel completely devastated that I brought a child into this world without anyone else except me to raise her. If anything happens to me I don't know what will happen to her. I don't believe she'll be loved or well-cared for by my husband. I'm trying to stay healthy and I just wish so badly I could offer my daughter something better.
I see friends often but my daughter is usually part of the meet-ups. I don't really feel a need to have time away from her considering I miss out on most of her life now that I work full-time and she's in school all day. I don't go to bars or drink alcohol so it's not really like there's any nightlife in which I'd like to participate. My daughter and I do a lot of kid-friendly activities together. I want to spend as much time with her as possible while she's so young.
This week my husband called me a lot while I was at work. He wanted to know if he should fly here this weekend. He kept complaining how he's tired and has a headache and this-and-that. Yet he felt he should come to see our daughter and he was thinking of taking her somewhere about five hours away. I asked if he planned to take her alone and he said "no, you can come" in a stressed-out sounding voice. I basically told him I'm sure our daughter would be happy to see him but we have plans this weekend so it's better if he doesn't come. He still kept calling me asking to make the decision for him. He ended up not coming.
Then my husband called several times this week about Christmas gifts and things he thought we might want. He wanted to order us a new bed. He asked if I need a new blender. He asked which toy specifically our daughter had requested the most. He sent extra money.
There was all that communication and then yesterday he never called at all. Today he called for five seconds in the morning and said he'd call our daughter back later and then he never called.
The inconsistency, the complete lack of having even a clue as to what's going on, and the loneliness around the holidays just seem intolerable. Obviously my husband isn't taking any action towards reconciling, but he's also no longer mad like he was when he wanted a divorce last winter. He doesn't stay here with us when he visits, he doesn't hug me, he doesn't say sorry for anything, yet he'll call many times in a week over insignificant things and he's quite nice. At the moment I feel there must be something I could or should do to clarify our situation but I just don't know what. I'm just stuck. I feel like I don't know if we're married, not married, done forever, or if he's happy with the situation as-is but if it comes to divorce he'd finally come home.....he's probably dating one or more women so I imagine it changes based on whoever he's with.
I'm planning to go to Europe for an extended time in May. I told my husband and he agreed with the plan. My employer agreed as well so I'm looking forward to seeing old friends and enjoying the change-of-scenery but even if I won the lottery it'll still feel like something's missing. I really wanted a loving marriage and family with my husband so badly. I started going into the office every day for work and it's helpful to be surrounded by colleagues...that's one positive....and other aspects of life are going well but the emptiness is always there.
In general I currently feel like I need guidance but not the GAL, detach, etc.. intro-level DB-type guidance but more on whether to try to engage my husband and create an opening for him to feel comfortable talking or if I should be closed-off and send a clear message that I've moved on and don't want to talk unless he has something important to say. I'd still like to reconcile if my husband were to ever have an awakening. I'd still love to give my daughter a home with both parents. My husband went off-the-deep-end but he used to be a very nice, gentle, loving guy. If someone were to say "you have one final shot at showing your husband reconciliation is an attractive option" I'd want to know what that is. Or if it's totally clear to the universe that reconciliation can't and won't happen then I need to understand what it means to live married and separated. Do I keep telling people I'm married or not? I usually tell people that my husband lives in another state without going into detail. Should I be telling them I'm single instead? Should I wear a wedding ring? So many questions....I just can't seem to make sense of anything.
You can’t be following H cycles Nicole. And you know that. Too many “what if...” Live the reality, protect yourself and D. Get on with your life. You wait for no one. H is ww, stay away from him. Has he shown any change? Come on girl.
Keep DB Nicole. This is a hard month but the new year is coming. You keep walking your road.
Lot of hugs for you and D!
Nic - he is comfortable where he is at... that is where he will stay.
Utlimately - its time to move on. I'm not saying you have to put forth the D... but you need to move on.
How many times must he call a day? a week? You decide. When he calls give the phone to your Daughter. Stop being available for all those calls. He has a headache??? Boohoo... he is a physician he should know how to heal thy self. He wants to whine... and you let him.
You've discussed items for Christmas... its done. No more to discuss.
You keep answering the phone or wallowing when you don't that he may want to have the talk about coming back. Here's the kicker. Let's say he does want to come back, you NOT taking that call won't stop it... he will just be more determined to get through to you.
Nic, I've said it over and over again. He knows you are just sitting there waiting for him to decide if he wants to come back. He is not the least bit worried about losing you.
I don't have a crystal ball. I know how hard and how painful of a time this is. Your hopes of a united family - how seriously you took your marriage vows, etc. I am not belittling any of that torture. But you have to stop living your life on when or maybe your H will give it one last shot. Trust me - they won't feel the panic of loss unless they truly have.
Nic - I don't want to sound too harsh. We are all here for the same reason which is to save ourselves and hopefully save our M.
Its just your H treats you like a doormat... comes in and wipes his feet about and moves on. NOT ONCE in the last few months have I read anything about him showing concern for YOUR feelings. Sure, he helps out with $, he takes your D out... those are his OBLIGATIONS.
Stop and think when did he last show any true concern for your emotional well being????
Nicole, your H has reached what is, for him, a good place. He has you on call any time he feels like, he provides money so his conscience is clear, has enough money to meet his needs, can date whoever he wants, and knows he has you as an option if his new life doesn't work out. Now that he's reached a new, happy equilibrium, he's in not rush to move the divorce forward, and he has no reason to get back together. This condition will probably last until either his new girlfriend wants to get married, or you get tired of it and force it along.
We are both pining for our lost lives and loves and it prevents us from moving on. Your life, and mine, still revolve around our exes, and we both need to change that. I'm starting to move forward with that, and pushing the divorce forward. In my opinion, you need to stop answering his calls, as a first step. I'd suggest being straightforward and saying it's not healthy for you, you can't detach and move on with this constant contact and you won't be taking his calls anymore. The best option is to get your D a cheap phone he can call himself, or else, when he calls, just hand it to her, and don't answer if she's not around. He doesn't have anything important that he needs to talk to you about. Even if he's dying, that's not your concern anymore. He fired you from that job. Let him figure out what she wants for Christmas.
Think about what you said about moving to Europe... "I told my husband and he agreed with the plan". Who cares if he agrees? You are letting him have a say in your life. Stop it. (I know, it's sooooo easy to type and soooo hard to live it. I do get that.)
I wonder how much of this money is "extra". Have you been to a lawyer to see just how much you would be receiving as alimony/child support? This "extra" may still be well below what you are entitled to under the law. If you start receiving it, he wouldn't have to send "extra" for a new bed; you'd already have it. Maybe he is the extraordinary man who generously gives his W more than the law would require, but I highly doubt it. I wonder if he's as generous as you think. I know a lot of bread winners think "Ex doesn't deserve that much!" but you were every bit as instrumental to his success as he is. You were a team and shouldn't have your contributions to the team diminished just because your sacrifices for the team allowed him to earn more.
I suggest taking off the wedding ring, and telling people you are separated. This will not only open some doors, but also help with your mindset. As long as you are telling people you are married or have a husband, you are preventing yourself from moving on.
One final thought.... Steve85 has a thread where he talks about a "magic bullet." In short, he says the only way to win back your spouse is to give them up. You should read it, if you haven't already. I think it really pertains to both of us.
((hugs))
Neffer, thanks for taking the time to respond and for your encouragement!
KitKat, thanks for your consistency in reminders and for capturing the DB approach in your own words. I struggle to capture the dilemma I feel in words but the part that I'm questioning is how to walk the fine line between creating the right conditions for reconciliation and demonstrating that I've moved on. My husband has showed interest in talking. I've been polite and give short responses but I don't engage in conversation beyond 10 or 15 seconds. If I'm busy I send a text saying I'm busy but sometimes he wants to talk at the end of his conversation with our daughter. I think how I've talked would fit the DB approach but I *could* allow the conversations to flow and stay on the phone longer and see how it goes. I lack confidence in how to proceed. I think my husband may interpret my lack of interest to mean that I've moved on and he thinks "yeah she's already gone so there's no use." After all those calls the other week he's backed off again. But if I spend a few minutes laughing, joking, and having a nice conversation he might think "wow, she's doing great and it's nice talking with her again....maybe we can talk more..." There seems to be a window of opportunity. I hesitate to blindly follow DB when a different set of actions could elicit a different response. I hear you and others use the term "move on" quite often. Could you define "moving on" in your own words?
Jim, yes, my husband may be content with his situation now. That's how it looks. It's hard to know what lies beneath the surface. I'll check about a cheap phone for my daughter and see if that works better. Regarding the trip to Europe, I had to ask him because he needs to provide permission for our daughter to leave the country. Last time I had to take a "permission to travel" travel that he signed so I wanted to ask him early about the next trip. I guess I could wait until a week or two before our trip to tell him we're going, but at that point if he doesn't agree to sign the letter I could lose money on flights and accommodations. It seemed better to ask him early on, but I don't know if it was right. It was kind of a practicality but perhaps I should have waited. Last spring I did meet with a lawyer to calculate what my husband would need to provide financially using his salary and my unemployed status at that time. His salary has since gotten lower and my income has increased but he's been sending the same amount plus more. If we get divorced though all this will need to get re-calculated especially at the point when we sell our house. With the wedding ring I stopped wearing it last winter when my husband said he wants a divorce and took his girlfriend to Dubai. I need to better understand what it means to say you're separated, especially when there are no divorce proceedings in place and when such a status isn't recognized by either of the states where my husband and I live. Jim it's good you're pushing your divorce forward if you feel ready. Maybe I'll feel that way at someday too, but I'd like to be more comfortable with the 'separated' status for the time being.
I'm planning to speak with a psychiatrist who helped my husband in his career earlier on and who has a good reputation. I'll see what he suggests. He's from my husband's home country and he knows us both well. I'll share an update when that happens.
Thanks again everyone!
I think my husband may interpret my lack of interest to mean that I've moved on and he thinks "yeah she's already gone so there's no use."
Or it may make him think that Plan B is no longer on the table and make him rethink what he's doing and what he wants. Either way, him thinking you have moved on will help to spur some action.
After all those calls the other week he's backed off again. But if I spend a few minutes laughing, joking, and having a nice conversation he might think "wow, she's doing great and it's nice talking with her again....maybe we can talk more..."
So he's detaching it seems like. You're wanting to pursue. Have you pursued in the past, and how did it work out? I really am curious here, because ultimately you have to do what works.
Could you define "moving on" in your own words?
Treat him like an ex-bf. What's there to talk about? It's not like he cares to be involved in your daughter's life much at all.
If you have any chance at recon, he needs to understand and know that you've moved on. Moved on in the example you mentioned above is for you to only communicate about what's necessary - your daughter and finances. Everything else is just not on the table. Your demeanor is pleasant and polite, but nothing more.
It isn't about a window of opportunity, it's more about him taking a risk and putting something out there. He's gotta put work in this knowing that he may get rejected. I personally wouldn't have it any other way.
Moving on also means you have zero concerns about what he desires, and how you can act to create space for him to talk about those desires. If he wants, he'll have to come out with it.
It is not on you to create an environment where a discussion around recon can take place. It is on his shoulders. I understand the want to go 'back', but just remember when you were in that cramped apartment, sick, taking care of your daughter, and he was frolicking around in Dubai with some woman. You really want that 'man'? No you don't.
Hi Ovrrnbw, yes I don't know but I guess this is like moving on part II. I feel like I passed the moving on stage when I decided to give up, move, and start my life over again yet there are many feelings and questions that linger on. I haven't tried pursuing. I don't think I'd want to do that, and I haven't tried it aside from the sincere apologies I made earlier in the year, but I just wonder if I allowed the conversation to elongate and keep it light and airy if it'd make any difference. I don't think I will, but it's just something I wish cross off in my mind as I second-guess which method is best.
Maika, your message is helpful because it really spells out how to act and what it means to move on. I've been unclear about this but now I feel like I get it. I like your use of the word 'frolicking' because that's exactly what it was.
Quick update - so my husband called twice this evening to speak with our daughter. The second time he was on FaceTime and his eyes were puffy again and he looked sad. He hasn't been here for a few weeks but he'll be here on Christmas morning. He said tonight he'll spend a week here when he comes and he said he'll be coming more often after that. He said to our daughter "I'll explain more to you and mama when I come." Our daughter also asked the other day if he can sleep here on Christmas and he said "yes we'll discuss it." So something seems to be happening - it could always change though. My husband could meet some new fun easy 26 year old tomorrow and it'd probably throw off his whole plan. But I'm curious to see what he has in mind.
Just be prepared for the temp check and R talk where he sees if he still has a fish on the end of his line.
Please start a new thread and link the two threads together. Thanks!
Hi Nicole!
Maika gave you great advice, and it is always a good idea to listen to him. Keeping things brief, and not being overly friendly or interested is always a good idea for dealing with a WAS. You have your own life to live without him. The thing is, that needs to be your truth, not just a front you show him.
You make it sound like he is deciding whether or not to sleep at your place on Christmas. Why would that be his decision? Why would you want that?
Remember not to have any expectations. Zero.
hugs,
Nicole, why would he sleep at your house? Because it's easier on you? If not, then he can just make the drive from his parents. I think even if it is easier or better for you in the short term, it's much worse for you in the long term, and you should not allow him to stay with you and D.
Like Davide said, your new life needs to be your truth, not just a front. I think you've done a pretty good job of this, but I suspect he knows that you haven't really let him go.
Nicole,
I am not great about posting to most people, because it just takes so much time, but I do follow several threads. I have thought about posting to you on a few occasions, but I don't, mainly because I get a sense that you dismiss things you just do not want to hear (read). For example, you have been asked more than once why you continue to spell out "my husband" and you completely ignored it. I think the language (and actions) we choose can mold our feelings and outcomes and so I would advise you think about that. Why don't you call him what he is? WH, WAH, STBXH? Other than on paper, he is not in any real form "your husband," and I do not say that to be rude, but I think it would help you to move forward. Baby steps add up over time and you still seem stuck on wanting him to return.
I also see that you are very stuck on your belief that your life would be better if he were to return and you could have your family together again. It's confusing to me because nothing you say about him indicates that he would be good partner or even decent co-parent. He just sounds like a selfish, adulterous, jerk honestly. He has not even shown remorse for what he has put YOU through and it's all about him and what he feels like doing or not doing. I would actually hope for you that if he does try and R, that you kindly tell him to p1ss off and just focus on being a halfway decent father.
The reason I posted was not to come down on you, but because I see some similarities in us. It seems that you battle with some deep rooted fear of being alone, abandonment or depression/anxiety. You mention that you don't have a family and cannot even talk to them. So it would make sense if you have some internal pain that is keeping you so attached to this (delusional) idea that your WH returning would provide a better life in some way. Maika called me out on something in my thread and I think it applies to you too. Do you see yourself as a victim? Will that be your story? I think the way we continue to view ourselves, and our sitch, very much prevents us from creating a more positive future. Are these things you can unpack with a good IC?
You and your D deserve a good life! A great life! That should not be hinged on whether he comes back or doesn't. I spoke once to you about codependency and you gave a long-winded response as to how that was not what this is. I respectfully disagree. I may not be as educated or intelligent as you and you clearly are a much better writer than I. But I know people and I know what I see; I see a woman that desperately believes that she needs this man to return to have a better life. And I believe you are 100% wrong in that. But, YOU need to change your beliefs and the way you see yourself and your situation. I think it iis time to do some work so that you can start believing that fully. In order to create that wonderful life without him, you first need to accept that it is possible.
Blu
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