Advice on my scenario pt. 20-Shock Therapy

Link to old thread - http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2802799#Post2802799

Ok, so Lots to update on.

I had a lot of time to think this weekend, and made some decisions / revelations.

First and foremost, the Low i experienced on Friday (during my business trip i SHOULD have been enjoying) was entirely my fault.

I chose, like an idiot, to yet again engage WIFE in conversation about not violating boundaries with S3.
She took the opportunity to choose things to say she knew would get under my skin, such as "We arent in a relationship, therefore your trust and approval is nor important to me"
(i had mentioned needing to be able to trust eachother as CO-Parents)
and she again decided to lay the blame of the downfall of our MR and Her Cheating at my feet, and blame me for everything that went sour in our MR (so, everything)

That being said, it is my fault. I could have ignored her, like I had been, and it was working and making me feel like I had some self-control for once in my Sitch. She just knows the right things to say to get my blood boiling. Not again. I know its just a ploy to get my negative attention, and it worked. I bought it hook line and sinker.

My Depressions and "Lows" are a cause and effect situation.
If i speak to her, i can sometimes come out of the conversation feeling elevated and victorious.
However her negative effects are a delayed release formula.
Whether the conversation "Goes my way" or it is one that directly makes me angry off the bad, the results are the same.
I end up dropping into a nihilistic depression and painfully reminisce about all the loss she has caused.

It doesn't matter the context or end result of the conversation, the emotional blow-back i experience is the same each time.

I just read something on Ballst's thread that spoke VOLUMES to me.

Originally Posted by ballast

I am constantly being "poked/jabbed" as if I'm the bad guy by W. A friend of mine made a very interesting point to me when he said "once you are gone and done with her...where is she going to go with all of that anger/resentment/frustration she has?"

By engaging in arguments with her, I am just making this process take longer.
By allowing her to take her frustrations out on me, I am continuing to provide on outlet for her negativity.
When i No longer provide that, it will have nowhere to go but to back up in her own life.
I was already seeing this happen 2 weeks ago when i had stuck to NC correctly for a span of time.
The faster I REALLY adhere to NC the faster this will happen.

More importantly the faster I will heal, and no longer get these "Lows" or "Drops"
because I will no longer be letting her effect my mood. At all. Ever.
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Additionally, BOY DID I GET A GREAT BIRTHDAY PRESENT!!!!!

The Court finally replied to my Motion to Clarify - Regarding Child Support Payments vs. Daycare.
The Motion Response letter from my Judge read as follows.
"The Temporary Orders do NOT require The Petitioner (ME) to split the cost of Daycare with the Respondent (WIFE)"

THIS IS HHUUGGEE!!

I have been so worried about having to pay both its been stressing me out.
Additionally, I have BEEN PAYING Daycare since May 22nd when i was issued to pay Child Support.

WIFE has not filed out her end of the Child Support paperwork, So i have been supposed to have been saving the $95 weekly so it was saved up.

I did the Math, Since May 22nd i have paid $1,225.00 in Daycare Tuition (that i wasnt supposed to be paying), and I would have owed $950 in Child Support in that same timeframe.

I am writing a request to the court to retroactively apply the $1,225.00 i Have erroneously paid in Daycare costs (I have printed copies of all checks, as well as paid invoices from Daycare Center to prove this) to the Child Support I have been unable to save up during this time.
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S3 Had a good weekend with MIL. She took him to a fair on Friday, and Saturday they spent the day together (i guess WIFE was working, who knows)

MIL helped S3 make a birthday card for me, and Me, S3, SIL (brothers Wife) and My brother did Birthday Cake last night. S3 was adorable!!!

I am taking him Camping next weekend. Which I am REALLY looking Forward to.

Karmic Justice for my birthday?
Yes Please!

OrangeK, sounds like good self-reflection and progress. Sounds like the best birthday weekend you can expect at this time!

For the fact that it started off with such a low point, it really was an amazing turn around.
Not only do i feel good for having managed my own emotional mire in a timely fashion through the process of honest self reflection, but Karma paid me back 10 fold!!

Orange

Good job at recognizing this dynamic

Be strong and steady

The more you detach the more she will try to push your buttons

OK great on the self-reflection! This is DBing working!! Good job.

Also, congrats on the court response. I don't want to be Debby Downer.....but what happens if she doesn't pay the tuition? What will you do with him on the weeks you have him if she goes into arrears and he can't go anymore?

I've been through court orders with finances before with divorced friends and family. The court issue rulings with no encorcement ALL THE TIME. I had a buddy whose W cheated and left him after they'd run up $30k in debt. Court cut the debt right down the middle, $15k each (they had no kids). She went to live with OM. Suddenly my buddy started getting solicitations from creditors on the entire $30k. Sending the creditors the copies of the court documents DID NOTHING. He ended up having to pay off the $30k in debt to keep his credit history intact. The creditors went after him because he was employed and she wasn't. The courts offered no recourse.

So this "you don't have to pay child-care tuition" things scares me because her failure to do so will impact you.

Happy Birthday BTW! Sounds like it was a good one.

Happy Birthday!

I agree, those are great self revelations. You recognized your own co-dependency. I believe you will think twice before reaching out to her knowing that it will be a lose-lose situation for YOU.

You are one of the only people I know who doesn't have to pay for a portion of the daycare. Child support is separate from daycare. So I guess you can consider yourself very lucky. When my daughter was in daycare, that cost for my share was MORE than my child support.

But Steve is absolutely right. What will you do when she doesn't pay? Do you have a potential plan in place for his care on your weeks?

Happy Birthday OK.......mine is on Thursday!

Just remember everything you do should be for yourself and your own emotional protection. "Yes", "No", or no response at all to her text messages. I am glad you are learning not to engage, it is like sticking your hand in a pile of fire ants over and over thinking they are not going to bite. Eventually it will happen, it's just a matter of when.

Remember short responses when she texts you....simple answers "yes", "no", or no response at all if the text is just informational....maybe a "Thank you". Nothing long and drawn out.....keep your responses varied.

Here is how I am looking at this.

The Judge ordered her to pay the Daycare, as My Child Support Covers it.
If she doesn't Pay, then she is neglecting our sons care, and it will be her fault. She has been court ordered to continue to do so. If i need to take some time off of work if this happens, i will do so. Then i will file for full custody.

I got the following text from her
"Well looks like its time for me to find a new daycare for S3 that I can afford weekly on my own with the $0 you have paid me thus far in child support.
(the court is still setting up the payment plan for that)
I will be sure to update my financial affidavit with the new expenses as sole daycare payment provider. Have a good day.

"I apologize for saying that out of frustration. It was wrong of me. I will be going to the court house tomorrow to file new paperwork. I may also need to look for a new daycare, but I will talk to you regarding that if/when the time comes"

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I called the Child Support Office, she JUST submitted her paperwork to get that rolling. It will eventually automatically come out of my paycheck each week.

I am requesting the court retroactively apply the $1,225.00 i have paid in Daycare since my last court date to my Child Support.
That will clear up anything I owe her, and then the payments will come out automatically each week.

I have not replied to her messages.

I honestly dont plan to, unless i have everything 100% figured out.

I am filing my request to retroactively apply the money first.

Advice on If i should inform her as to my plan to handle this or leave it alone?

no need to respond. She didn't ask a question. She was passive-aggressive and realized afterward that it could hurt her in court to be sending messages like that. Document, and ignore.

My man.

Thanks Steve, i was thinking the same, just needed a bit of a "Sponsor" (like in AA) to keep me in check.

Of course the devious side of me thinks you should respond with:

"We arent in a relationship, therefore your trust and approval is nor important to me"

LOL

But no don't do that.

Yep on what S said............unless it ends in a question mark there is no need to respond.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Of course the devious side of me thinks you should respond with:

"We arent in a relationship, therefore your trust and approval is nor important to me"

LOL

But no don't do that.

HAHAHA Steve's Got JOKES!!

Ill just use the mental image of this to keep me warm at night lol lol.

Originally Posted by Joseph9

Yep on what S said............unless it ends in a question mark there is no need to respond.

This is a really simple way to determine if a response is needed.
Why didnt i think of this before, and if you mentioned it, shame on me for not noticing.

Thanks J!

I did

......if she doesn't put a question mark at the end then just READ the sentence. I still do this with my EW for the most part still......most of our indepth convo about our girls is done via email.

Ive been trying to get her to use email or the CoParenting App. I have said in more than one way "Please no longer text, if we need to communicate, email is sufficient"

She respects boundaries about as much as Nazi Germany did.
just ask the Pol's.

Maybe she will when you stop responding or only answer with a "yes" or "no"

not holding my breath. lol

I checked with the Child Support office and asked "Am i considered late, behind, in rears or in default at the current juncture in any way shape or form?"

the Office's reply - No.

My only concern now is that I feel as though the Judge has thrown a rock into the proverbial hornets nest.

She is likely to Lawyer up now, which she hasnt done to this point.

I am MUCH more concerned about the TRO at this juncture,

and i believe the efforts to antagonize, and harass will increase in frequency and intensity.

Her arrogance becomes obvious with things like "I guess Ill have to find a new school for him"
we have 50/50 decision making, she cant just change his school because she wants to.
Same with the times she has tried to dictate the terms of our divorce to me.
Her entitlement is astounding.

Your only responses are YES, NO, or NO RESPONSE. She can try to antagonize you but it won't work if you don't take the bait.

Orange

I was a very slow learner

I would always take the bait

Then I finally stopped texting

So she would call

And I learned to let it go to vmail

And then she would have to talk to me live

And if she was disrespectful then I left the conversation

So she started taking to me respectfully

I tell you this because I learned the hard way

You can do this

If you remember you can only control you

Strong like bull. I got this!

Never replied yesterday. Waiting for her to find something else to dig at me about. As expected yesterdays communication came via text, not email as requested.

She expected to be able to steer the divorce ship where and when she wanted. Sorry to disappoint Hun, but no.,

Happy Birthday Orange! Are you 31 now? You seem stronger than when you were 30.

Feel the power of freedom. Keep it growing man

Yep. 31. Thanks Nef

I feel a lot....different.

I find it ironic my last low point was the eve of my birthday.
Then the court notice came in the mail.
That had a huge effect.

Not much to report. I haven't heard from her since the comments she made about not being able to afford daycare. She had said she was going to file a new financial paperwork so I will look for that in the mail. I have a lot planned this weekend with S3. I took Friday off so he and I could go to the beach after I get my license renewed and then I think on Saturday and Saturday night we will go camping. That will give us enough time on Sunday morning to pack up camp and head home and get ready for her to come pick him up. the only thing that I'm kind of worrying about is if she attempts some form of retaliation, although I can hardly be blamed for the Court's decision. I've been thinking about the fact that she actually apologized and said she was wrong in her last message, she has literally never apologized to me about anything ever. let alone admitted fault for doing something wrong. It wasn't genuine, it was backpedaling after she reacted out of anger. I don't know if it's a placebo effect or something but hitting my birthday has certainly helped, I've felt pretty Zen these last few days

Expect the worst. I know you don't think she has hired a lawyer, but I would be surprised. Even if the L was "behind the scenes" to encourage you to NOT hire a lawyer.

These proceedings have a way of getting ugly, despite the early on "we are going to be amicable" talk. Once money gets involved the claws come out. That is why I told you weeks ago (and I am so happy you listened to, if not me, others) that you couldn't afford to NOT have a L.

But brace yourself. It is going to get ugly. It always does. I expect she will also try to slip things through. I am still very suspicious of the original "primary residence" language. Keep your eyes peeled. Consult your attorney often and on all things. And brace yourself for when things turn ugly.

I've known she's had a lawyer waiting in the wings for some time, her official response to my divorce decree Was most certainly drafted up and written by a lawyer not her. so I know she's already spoken with one that at least helped her prepare a document. the plus side being there's not really a lot of time left until final divorce hearing period less than 2 months, which is in a lot of time to file any sort of new documentation. so if she's going to do something she needs to do it quick. I need to touch base with my lawyer and have another meeting with him

I really try my best not to call her parenting into question. But Every time I've gotten my son after she's had him for a few days his behavior is atrocious. I don't know if she's neglecting him or just letting him dictate when and how he does things and not setting discipline or what. all I know is that every time I get him after she's had him he is overtired, obstinate, aggressive and argumentative. after I've had him for a day or two he goes back to normal. I hate Split parenting.

I cannot stand co-parenting either. It really is an extremely difficult thing to navigate. We never had any issues parenting together and I'm not experiencing the kind of behavioral shift you are, but the lack of communication and miscommunication is very frustrating in my sitch. Add in the fact that my W acts in a way that suggests she just assumes that she is and will continue to be the primary parent and I'm just there for decoration because she wants to make sure I "still have a relationship" with them. I don't think that she quite understands, although I've not beaten around the bush about it, that I intend to seek 50/50 custody or as close to that as possible. Regardless of what it might mean for her financially in terms of child support and alimony. It won't be my problem at that point and it's her own fault if it ends up that way...

Just do your best with him when it's your turn OK, you can't really call her out on the way she parents unless there's obvious neglect or abuse. You're two totally different people and you are going to approach parenting differently. If you guys had been together longer and established more cohesion as parents, it might not be as frustrating in the way that it is for you right now, but believe me, it'd just be trading one kind of frustration for another.

definitely cycling back into another phase of anger and missing what I had. I'm glad I'm able to recognize it for what it is now but it doesn't make it suck any less

Try to enjoy the time with your son. Don�t let anything cloud that time. Stay strong Orange.

Originally Posted by OrangeK

definitely cycling back into another phase of anger and missing what I had. I'm glad I'm able to recognize it for what it is now but it doesn't make it suck any less

OK these are the times we you need to stay busy. If you have S3, as neffer says, make it all about him. Otherwise, dive into work. Or if you need a break from work, go for a walk.

At home stay busy. There is nothing worse than being in these phase and just sitting and stewing in it. Go for a run, a bike-ride, or a workout. Or call up a buddy and go do a guy thing (I personally love going to the shooting range, most of them rent guns so you don't even need to own one). Hang out with brother and SiL. Anything but keep that mind occupied and away from those thoughts of anger and missing. Those are when we have weak moments and break principles with texts, etc.

As neffer said STAY STRONG! You got this.

the local amusement park was having free admission for First Responders. I took the day off of work and went there with S3, we had a great day together, and it was completely free for us both to go to an amusement park for the entire day. Win. kicks that depressive cycle right in the pants.

Awesome!!

Despite getting over yesterday's bum out fairly early, I'm still left with a lot of residual thoughts and frustrations. I was reading on someone else's post about how the ww never even seems to give things a chance to, let alone communicate that there are issues going on before things get to BD. the fact that my marriage was killed before I ever even got a chance to fight for it, the fact that she chose to have an affair months and months before I found out and that she wouldn't have told me. I honestly think now if I never confronted about the affair it probably would have run its course But who wants to live like that? in fact that being said I don't think that's the case because she was telling my friends that she was thinking about leaving me in August they just never told me. I can't seem to shake this feeling of wishing none of this happened and that our relationship never fell apart, which is obvious, but The disrespect would have happened eventually anyway. It's who she is. at this point I really shouldn't care about her relationship with om but at the end of the day I still think about that relationship ending all the time. although I do get the feeling that the excitement of the affair has ended and it's basically a relationship of convenience and necessity for her at this point. She has aged dramatically since January. the stress and anxiety of all of this seems to be taking their toll on her. I know this is mine reading and probably not the best thing for me to be doing but I'd rather Journal honestly than not Journal at all. I guess there's a tiny part of me that still can't believe that she's fubar.

it's also really tough as I'm at that age where a lot of my friends are having their second child and getting into the golden period of their marriage friends who have bought houses and are raising their families happily together. that's all I ever wanted and it's what I thought I had, moreover I thought it was with the woman of my dreams. emotionally I'm still doing fine today it just kind of stinks when you have those realizations that others seem to effortlessly thrive and are living the life that I had dreamed for her and I and had ripped away. these are all really great people and close friends and I'm super happy for them and their families are beautiful and amazing, I just miss being part of that club

You are grieving, Orange. It's okay, just don't contact her, thinking it will help your feelings.

don't worry Sandy I'm not, we have not spoken since last Friday, which I posted about. She has not messaged me since Monday and I haven't replied to that message still.

The silence from pdwife is bit unnerving. I was driving home with my friend who just got in from out of country and i passed her and om leaving my house after picking up s3 from sil. Still NC. wife was very short and rude with sil while arranging s3 pickup.

Originally Posted by OrangeK

The silence from pdwife is bit unnerving. I was driving home with my friend who just got in from out of country and i passed her and om leaving my house after picking up s3 from sil. Still NC. wife was very short and rude with sil while arranging s3 pickup.

Likely still miffed about the tuition thing.

When is the final court date?

9/11.
One week before 2 year anniversary.

I agree, things are not working out how she wanted.

And you are in control of your life Orange. Keep staying strong.

I am in control, although it is still seeming difficult to maintain said control.
I can still feel the wheel of the "Cycle" or recovery rolling, but i feel it less keenly each time around.

Mind reading most likely, but i feel like the "Loss or series of losses" is mounting for her, here are the reasons I think this to be the case.

1.) The Exposure of Affair - The affair was an impulse decision, and as it was exciting, new and fun, she maintained it. I dont believe She ever wanted me to find out about the affair, She hid it for months, fervently, and denied it for months, despite mounting evidence. She lied about the scope of the affair and lead me on for months until i surrendered the apartment.
I believe her intention was originally to keep the affair secret (although she messed up in doing this) and stay in the marital home.

2.) The Apartment - As mentioned above, she was very careful to instill false hope during Oct-Dec before i surrendered the apartment. Once she knew the MH was going away, and her stuff would have to move, she wouldnt have a landing pad, and that I was standing up for myself, her demeanor changed dramatically. She want from wishy washy with Hope and Hurt, to 100% cold discard. She Never expected me to leave our home or move on by myself.

3.) Caught Red Handed - When I caught her at OM's house in Jan after she had told me several times they were just friends, it was a ONS, they werent seeing eachother.

4.)Divorce - Despite yelling "I WANT A DIVORCE" in MC meeting in Jan, she never filed, and had AMPLE time to do so.
I dont think she ever expected me to go through with it, and it caused serious personal narcissistic injury when I did. Causing her to "Hate" me more.

5.) Her Car - Her car died and she is now RELIANT on OM for a vehicle, he is also the only place they hang out with. She seems to have already alienated his friends.

6.) Custody - She wanted the custody schedule to stay the same as we had set it up back in Oct. She wasnt pleased when the Court issued a new one that was mandatory. It conflicted with her schedule.

7.) Child Support / Daycare - This is a big one. She has thought this whole time the divorce would go her way at every turn. Since the notice that I am not responsible for Daycare, she has very much shut down. Isnt reaching out antagonistically or with false concern like she was a few weeks back. She was VERY cold and rude to SIL yesterday.

8.) Nobody Cares - Most of what she does is motivated by attention seeking. The Drama and hubbub of the affair/divorce and new R with OM has lost its social impact. Life is returning to normal, just work and Childcare, day to day stuff. But now she doesnt have a home, a car, independence, or nearly as much free time or available spending money. The cascade of BS is starting to pile up around her legs.
Moreover, She has had to explain and deal with the social fallout of explaining what happened, lying about it, and dealing with people who know the truth of what happened.

Sandi - Does this sound like the type of "Losses" you refer to ?

I guess i am wondering why instead of feeling more empowered by Detachment and NC working its magic, i am feeling more and more anxious as the gap of time widens from last time She and I communicated.

I spent a lot of time trying to self reflect on why I am the way I am, and do what I do, Feel what I feel this past week.

I find myself hitting a lot of dead ends there.

I still struggle with the Logic vs. Emotion cognitive dissonance, despite realizing more and more each day how disingenuous, fake, unmotivated, lazy and deceptive PD-WIFE is, and always was.

It like my emotional side REALLY doesnt want to accept what the Logical Side has been explaining, and proving for months.

there is still 5% of me that is waiting to wake up from a nightmare, and realize none of this actually happened.

I have been doing better at moving these feelings aside, enjoying my day and dealing with said emotions later on in the day when I am alone, but I very very much look forward to the day where I realize I havent even thought of her fro days on end.
That will be so liberating.

OrangeK, I wish I had those answers. A real psychologist or family therapist would probably be able to help more than the people on this forum though. Here people might tell you what to do or how you should be feeling but sometimes they fail to do what we really need the most - listen and understand. So my response is that you seem to be putting a lot of pressure on yourself, and you're probably feeling a lot of pressure from people who are not experts to do certain things or act a certain way, but sometimes you'll still be struggling and you simply want to talk through your thought process with someone who understands. If you don't get that here then hopefully your new IC will help. Oftentimes we also need to figure things out for ourselves. Even if someone else gives you the answer (like "just move on!") it won't help much until you come to that realization yourself. It seems like it'll take a long time to get your wife off your mind. It's still been less than a year. It could take a long time, but you're recognizing your progress and you seem to be good at analyzing yourself. Maybe you'll have a realization tomorrow that'll help you to move forward more effortlessly. Maybe you're getting burned out from all this analyzing and suffering so maybe one day you'll just be so tired of it that you'll become disaffected and won't care anymore. If you find yourself doing well enjoying your day when you're busy doing other things that's great! I don't know. It's so hard to stop analyzing, especially as new things keep happening and throw you off all over again, but if you're moving on a positive trajectory then at least you can have hope this will get better someday!

On your first post, OK. Be careful with #5. Most WAWs HOPE that the LBH will do all of the heavy lifting of D. They will sit in limbo for years sometimes just to get out of the work. Some of it is so that they can tell people "He divorced me." So it was likely a goal of hers, when she made her grand announcement "I WANT A DIVORCE!" that YOU would file. That you would do the paperwork. That all she would have to do is NOT contest it. And show up at court hearings. Does that jive with the rest of your marriage? Were you the doer? Did she sit back and say things like "I think we should do this." Or "I think we should plan this." And then leave the DOING and PLANNING to you?

On your second post the answer is easy, but you won't like it: You still aren't detached. At least not fully. And as you loosen your grip on the rope you start getting anxious about the rope actually releasing from your hand. So you start to feel it slip and you tighten your grip. You might not fully readjust to where you had it gripped before, but you haven't fully let go of it yet either. There is no other explanation. When the thought of all of this being over is a relief, and you just want to move on with life without her, then you will know you are fully emotionally detached. Joseph9 is an excellent resource for this. I would confer with him on this finally bit of letting that rope go.

BTW, Nicole makes an excellent point. I know you were going to schedule IC once you were at your brother's? So when is your appointment?

It just Sux to keep hearing "it takes time"
I feel like its been forever, but in hindsight it kind of breaks down a bit differently.
I like to say in my head "Its been 9 months!!! I should be getting over this!!"
But in reality it hasn't been that long.

Affair Length - April 2017 - 1 Year 3 Months Ago.

Affair Suspicion - August 2017 - 11 Months Ago

Separation / Affair Exposure - October 2017 - 9 Months Ago

Moved out of MH - Jan 2018 - 7 Months Ago

Filed for D - Feb 2018 - 6 Months Ago

Found DB Website - March 2018 - 5 Months Ago

Truly began to Heal and Detach earnestly - May 2018 - 3 Months Ago

True Self Reflection Begins - June 2018 - 2 Months Ago.
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My current goal is to move away from hoping for OM/PDWIFE to breakup, trying to mind read her "Losses" and hoping for her downfall.

Looking into some new hairstyles, gonna shop for some new clothes soon.
Just trying to think of any and all ways to re-invent myself and feel new but the same.

Also just kinda.......shooting in the dark. lol.

even A blind pig finds an acorn eventually!!

I emailed her several times, she had been on vacation. I havent heard back. Last time i reached out to her was like 2 weeks ago. Ill shoot her a new email today,

It takes time. Yes we all hate hearing that. Especially since when time is a nebulous thing. 1 second is time. 1 millennium is time. So which is it?

It is different for everyone. 1 person might be fully moved on in 3 months, another is still struggling with things after 3 years! You can't know, and it take the time it takes. It like a broken leg. Everyone wants to be healed and back on their feet quickly. But there are different degrees of broken legs. There is fractured, clean breaks, shattered legs. No two are the same. My fracture might take 6-8 weeks. Your shattered leg might take 12-18 months. The problem is that it will be fully healed when it is and not a moment before.

But as I told you last week, the key for me, and hopefully for you, is to be BUSY. All the time. Keep your mind occupied. The more you sit and stew the worse you will feel. This was me. As long as I was busy I could cope. When I was bored I constantly stewed on the sitch.

I've also seen a pattern. Anytime you have a close-encounter, you spin. You said you saw them leaving with your S from SiL's house. And then today you are struggling. This is why I've said that the TRO might be, in your sitch, a blessing in disguise.

But in general, just stay strong OK! You've got this. The way you've handled her in texts recently has been textbook perfect. And while it feels counter-intuitive, that is, what the vets around her refer to as, the illusion of action. Doing NOTHING feels wrong, especially to fix-it type LBHs. But doing something is counter-productive so you have to fight that urge.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Some of it is so that they can tell people "He divorced me."

This was my guess, part of playing the Victim. Fits like a glove.

Originally Posted by Steve85

So it was likely a goal of hers, when she made her grand announcement "I WANT A DIVORCE!" that YOU would file. That you would do the paperwork. That all she would have to do is NOT contest it. And show up at court hearings. Does that jive with the rest of your marriage? Were you the doer? Did she sit back and say things like "I think we should do this." Or "I think we should plan this." And then leave the DOING and PLANNING to you?

First part i agree, she just didnt want to pay to file or do the work.
2nd Part, depends. She did all the wedding planning, also took care of things like Dr. Bills.
I planned our HoneyMoon. I did all our Apartment Searching and appointment setting therein.
I would say the "Planning / Doing" was about 70%/30% (me 70%)

Originally Posted by Steve85

On your second post the answer is easy, but you won't like it: You still aren't detached. At least not fully. And as you loosen your grip on the rope you start getting anxious about the rope actually releasing from your hand. So you start to feel it slip and you tighten your grip. You might not fully readjust to where you had it gripped before, but you haven't fully let go of it yet either. There is no other explanation. When the thought of all of this being over is a relief, and you just want to move on with life without her, then you will know you are fully emotionally detached. Joseph9 is an excellent resource for this. I would confer with him on this finally bit of letting that rope go.

I agree. I am not fully detached. There are times I like to think I am, but I am not. Josephs has been invaluable in keeping me in line with detaching.
Maybe I am just letting the rope out slowly instead of dropping it.
Belay habits (Right Makia?)

I think I am afraid to drop the rope 100%.
I think in the back of my mind I may fear dropping the rope right when the losses hit her (hence my asking about Losses earlier today).
Like if i were to finally fully detach, and she wants to start talking R, and I think I fear that FINAL sense of Loss, that it really is 100% done, dead and gone.

Which again brings up the juxtaposition. Logically I WANT This to happen. It is fully detachment.
I have realized I dont cope well with Change.
Fully letting go of the rope would be acknowledging that its all dead and gone, and change is happening.
But in my deep soul i Know all she has to offer is more abuse and lies.

One of my best friends returned from traveling yesterday and had good advice when he told me to stop talking about her (i was filing him in on 3 months worth of recent events)
He said
"its like when i am traveling and need to REMEMBER to speak the local language. Its so comfortable and natural to speak English, but it doesn't work, so i have to try and remember ahead of time to speak Spanish. You need to do the same thing about talking / thinking about her"
Wisdom.

Ehh. we literally passed each other driving, I only saw her for less than a second. I dont feel like i am spinning today, emotionally pretty level, but the Sitch in general is just on my mind today a lot, but im not pulling my hair out or pacing around, clenching fists, chain smoking etc like I have in the past when spinning out.

Certainly not the "Spin outs" i had experienced over the past few weeks.
Its the Arguments with her that really get me spinning out.

Quote

Which again brings up the juxtaposition. Logically I WANT This to happen. It is fully detachment.
I have realized I dont cope well with Change.
Fully letting go of the rope would be acknowledging that its all dead and gone, and change is happening.
But in my deep soul i Know all she has to offer is more abuse and lies.

OK, here is the thing. Detachment isn't final. Most of the people on this forum that moved to R with their WASs FULLY detached. In fact, full detachment was what finally brought their WASs to their sense. Without it, R was impossible.

The other thing is that there are other folks on here that fully detached, and then DIDN'T want R when their X or STBX came crawling back. Likely you'll fall into this category since you see her for what she really is now.

The point is that full detachment doesn't mean that you are open to future R, it just means that you will be fine either way! ItHurts is a perfect example of that!

SHould have read The point is that full detachment doesn't mean that you are NOT open to future R.....

Yea i know. The thing is yet again, emotioanlly i want her to approach me for R, just to know she finally realized the scope and scale of what damage she caused and what she threw away, but i think unless she were to do LOTS and LOTS of work to R, i wouldnt even consider it.
Too much pain and deliberate hurt has occurred.
Too much violation of trust.

I want her to want me, but I dont want to want her anymore.
Very confusing stuff.

Yes it is. Sorry man, we've all been there. Confusing, draining, frustrating, maddening etc, etc, etc.

But as you said you are coping a lot better than you did a couple of months ago. You deserve lots of praise for how far you've come!

Its so, so hard, not to call her out, demand responsibility for what she did, or simply let her know what a POS she has been.
She always projected this air of misfortune, injury, innocence and sweetness. She did such a good job convincing me that she would NEVER EVER do ALL of the awful crap she did.

It so much to try and just drop, ignore, and not talk about, or try to get answers / solutions for.
The fact that i still partiall view her this way, and that i still call into doubt what was my fault vs hers is really difficult.
At this juncture i did not think cognitive dissonance regarding her would still be a factor, whats worse is i KNOW it isnt true, there is no "2 versions of her" or any misunderstanding of waht she did, and how it all went down, but yet there is STILL this mostly quiet dormant thought that bubbles up to the surface from time to time in my psyche and whispers,
"She is the woman of your dreams, the love of your life, she couldnt have done theses things, she is your sweet Hunny, your beautiful Helen of Troy. Your Serendipitous Better half. We Love her, We did this, we ruid this and we need her back. Youll wither without her."
It takes all my newfound will power to find the voice to speak back and say, "Lies and you know it. You are the addiction talking, she is poison. She is deceit personified. you need to go away and Die Doubt and Love for her. Go Die now"

Her denial of OBVIOUS truths still eats at me, months later.

Gaslighting is a horrible, awful thing.

For any Game of Thrones Fans.......
SHAME!
*Rings Bell*
SHAME!, SHAME!
*Rings Bell*.

So OK, what are your plans for tonight after work?

Go home. Do a workout, then sit around my brothers house bored AF like usual. I hate living with other people. Im just in the way.

Originally Posted by OrangeK

Go home. Do a workout, then sit around my brothers house bored AF like usual. I hate living with other people. Im just in the way.

So get out and do something! Love the workout. Hate the "sitting around being bored". Find something to do. Anything. STAY BUSY.

Everything cost $$. by the time i have dinner and do workout itll be dark out.
I mean i do stuff indoors, ill probably work on my D&D material. I think feeling lonely is just keeping me a bit low today.

I really hate how crappy i feel when I am single, i know i dont NEED to be in an R, but looking back, when i was in MR, I was so much more motivated to do stuff, like EMS classes, Fire Training, etc.

Now i feel like i never have time to be able schedule stuff properly.

Just going to do some heavy metal therapy on the way home. My plans for Gamenight tomorrow just dropped out too, which is a bummer.

I know I am late in this convo, but have you developed an actual schedule - from the minute you wake up till you go to bed? When I did that, I found how much unscheduled time I had that I was just meandering about. I shifted and slotted in my priorities and made my time accountable.

Also, you'll have to learn how to be alone but not lonely. If you have time on your hand after workout, why aren't you reading, listening to podcasts, reflecting, meditating etc etc. Going out costs $$$ - I know. There's tons of stuff you can do that doesn't cost a thing. I just listed a few.

Also, this is my take and so I add the qualification - motivation is garbage. Don't try to motivate yourself, just do. Look up Mel Robbins 5 second rule, and her interview on Impact Theory. I don't wait for motivation, I just follow through because I've already decided it's something I want to do and why I want to do it.

Originally Posted by Maika

I know I am late in this convo, but have you developed an actual schedule - from the minute you wake up till you go to bed? When I did that, I found how much unscheduled time I had that I was just meandering about. I shifted and slotted in my priorities and made my time accountable.

No i havent. Not a bad idea.

Originally Posted by Maika

Also, you'll have to learn how to be alone but not lonely. If you have time on your hand after workout, why aren't you reading, listening to podcasts, reflecting, meditating etc etc. Going out costs $$$ - I know. There's tons of stuff you can do that doesn't cost a thing. I just listed a few.

In regards to reading and Podcasts, i try not to inundate myself with MR/DB stuff all day, if im thinking of DB/MR then i am thinking of WIFE. So this is why i try to spend time writing (fiction), playing D&D/Games, stuff that puts my mind not only off of WIFE but completely out of my life, in fantasy realm, or doing things like climbing/working out.
Its like if I spend 100% of my free time working on detachment and focusing on my sitch, itll just prolong it.
Just the 5 step cycle running its wheel. Round and Round.
Today seems to be a place of Anger, though not the unquenchable rage ive experienced in the past.
Right now i have a strong feeling id like to just yell at her. Shes such a damn child. Its really infuriating. Like i keep thinking ill be done with being angry at her, then it just comes back again and again.

Originally Posted by Maika

Also, this is my take and so I add the qualification - motivation is garbage. Don't try to motivate yourself, just do. Look up Mel Robbins 5 second rule, and her interview on Impact Theory. I don't wait for motivation, I just follow through because I've already decided it's something I want to do and why I want to do it.

Someday's I am very easily "Motivated", other days I am FRESH out of Give a S**t, days like today I just want to tell her how awful she is, and that i dont know how the F she sleeps at night.
WIsh i knew where this anger was stemming from, no event caused this, we havent spoken in over a week.

You don't need to read or consume any thing that's related to marriage, relationships etc etc. As I am getting ready to start working out in the next few weeks, I am listening to the Mind Pump podcast - just awesome. I actively seek out materials to consume that are about my interests. I don't have single thoughts of W or the MR or BD when I am doing that.

Love the D&D and fantasy realm. That stuff is awesome. Yeh man, go to another reality and let it consume you and give you joy.

You just mentioned the biggest problem with motivation - it depends on how you feel. Most times people don't feel like following through and that's why motivation is garbage. Again, check out what Mel Robbins has to say about this and what she did to overcome motivation nonsense to get her life back on track.

It's okay to have angry days. I know I have had them too. Just breathe and get through today. Don't worry about tomorrow.

It would be MUCH more tolerable if it didnt come with the difficult to ignore physical symptoms, which are.......hard to describe.
I can only attempt to explain it like this, it seems to come in steps, or waves, and i dont always catch myself doing these things until after i notice ive been doing them for a while. Anger is a very odd emotion.

Step 1.) "The Stomach Twistys" - This is clearly a psychosomatic symptom of anxiety. it feels like my core muscles are charged up ready to do some form of activity, but it never comes.

Step 2.) If Step 1 continues and worsens, I start to get "Flexy Hands"
I spend a lot of time cracking knuckles, flexing my hands out wide, the folding into fists. Usually this step is accompanied by heavy "Stressed" sounding breath exhalations through pursed lips.

Step 3.) "Flexy Hands" turn to "Head Magnets", as i become more stressed, i will begin to put my head in my hands a lot, usually leaning on my desk, or nervously run my hands through my hair.

Step 4.) "Lightning Blood and Fire Breath" this is usually the last step, unless things get REALLY bad.
It feels like I have lightning in my muscles, Lava in my blood and that i exhale pyroclastic flow. This is the stage where my body really betrays me, it is very hard to harness my emotions at this stage. I have tried to explain this level of anger to SIL before, as my brother and I both experince this, Ive tried to explain it to WIFE in the past (before BD) as well. I never got this angry WITH / AT wife before, but i have been angry in FRONT of her about unrelated stuff. She didnt like my temper, which is understandable.
It feels like my get physically charged with energy, and the only outlet for it at this point is physical exertion, screaming / yelling, or lots of quiet time.

Step 5.) "Critical Mass" - this is the rare and dangerous level of anger for me. This is when I advance too quickly through the "Lightning Blood Phase" and my logic is completely washed away by red rage. This is the state i was in when i hit WIFE's car and got the TRO, as well as 7/20 when she went off on me.
This is the stage when I DO NOT THINK, i just REACT. I say horribly offensive things, punch walls, and run my mouth in a very unreasonable state. From Oct - March I was in this place a lot. Almost lost my job over it, made myself look like an @$$ because of some of the (VERY HONEST) but vulgar things i said to WIFE about affair and OM. Like calling her a S*UT, or when she said "think of the position you put me in (blame shifting)" and I replied "What position would that be? on your back with your legs open while i was at home watching our son or working to pay for our home?!!?"

-------------------------------
While 90% of the time, my progression through these steps requires contact with WIFE and her pissing me off, sometimes, it just....shows up.

Today is one of the latter days, and id say im at a Step 3.5 right now. I feel the "Breath Fire" but no "Lightning Muscles / Laval Blood" sensations at this point.

i may look at another IC, the one im waiting to hear back from doesnt prescribe meds, and i think i may need them to help fix ^^^^ this.

Originally Posted by OrangeK

I am in control, although it is still seeming difficult to maintain said control.
I can still feel the wheel of the "Cycle" or recovery rolling, but i feel it less keenly each time around.

Mind reading most likely, but i feel like the "Loss or series of losses" is mounting for her, here are the reasons I think this to be the case.

1.) The Exposure of Affair - The affair was an impulse decision, and as it was exciting, new and fun, she maintained it. I dont believe She ever wanted me to find out about the affair, She hid it for months, fervently, and denied it for months, despite mounting evidence. She lied about the scope of the affair and lead me on for months until i surrendered the apartment.
I believe her intention was originally to keep the affair secret (although she messed up in doing this) and stay in the marital home.

2.) The Apartment - As mentioned above, she was very careful to instill false hope during Oct-Dec before i surrendered the apartment. Once she knew the MH was going away, and her stuff would have to move, she wouldnt have a landing pad, and that I was standing up for myself, her demeanor changed dramatically. She want from wishy washy with Hope and Hurt, to 100% cold discard. She Never expected me to leave our home or move on by myself.

3.) Caught Red Handed - When I caught her at OM's house in Jan after she had told me several times they were just friends, it was a ONS, they werent seeing eachother.

4.)Divorce - Despite yelling "I WANT A DIVORCE" in MC meeting in Jan, she never filed, and had AMPLE time to do so.
I dont think she ever expected me to go through with it, and it caused serious personal narcissistic injury when I did. Causing her to "Hate" me more.

5.) Her Car - Her car died and she is now RELIANT on OM for a vehicle, he is also the only place they hang out with. She seems to have already alienated his friends.

6.) Custody - She wanted the custody schedule to stay the same as we had set it up back in Oct. She wasnt pleased when the Court issued a new one that was mandatory. It conflicted with her schedule.

7.) Child Support / Daycare - This is a big one. She has thought this whole time the divorce would go her way at every turn. Since the notice that I am not responsible for Daycare, she has very much shut down. Isnt reaching out antagonistically or with false concern like she was a few weeks back. She was VERY cold and rude to SIL yesterday.

8.) Nobody Cares - Most of what she does is motivated by attention seeking. The Drama and hubbub of the affair/divorce and new R with OM has lost its social impact. Life is returning to normal, just work and Childcare, day to day stuff. But now she doesnt have a home, a car, independence, or nearly as much free time or available spending money. The cascade of BS is starting to pile up around her legs.
Moreover, She has had to explain and deal with the social fallout of explaining what happened, lying about it, and dealing with people who know the truth of what happened.

Sandi - Does this sound like the type of "Losses" you refer to ?

Bump for opinions???

I think sandi's "feeling loss" probaby doesn't apply to your sitch OK. That is for WWs that are still trying to keep their H for the husband side of things. Kind of like when a WW is still living with the H, and living off his income, etc.

I could be wrong, but I do not think a feeling of loss is going to work with your STBXW.

What do you mean "not work"?
Im not hoping for loss to get her back.
I just want the weight and consequence of what she did to fall upon her.

You have ZERO control over how, when, and what loss she will feel. That timeline is completely out of your hands. Let it go.

Originally Posted by OrangeK

What do you mean "not work"?

Answer:

Originally Posted by OrangeK

I just want the weight and consequence of what she did to fall upon her.

Again, your WW has a past that suggests that she will never feel the weight and consequence of what she did. So why focus on it?

I know you struggle with this on and off. But YOU know the weight and consequence of what she did, whether or not she ever does. It was through all of this that she showed her true colors. As you've said, the person you thought she was is an illusion.

The illusion of who she was MIGHT have felt the weight and consequence of what she did.

The real person she probably never will. And even if she ever does, you'll be the last person to know.

Also,

You keep saying:

Quote

Im not hoping for loss to get her back.

Are you trying to convince us? Or yourself? (This is not to answer, just to think about.)

OrangeK, there are signs that my husband has been feeling loss similar to what you describe you wish your wife would feel. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to make much difference in the overall situation. Last night, once again, my husband started crying on the phone when he did FaceTime with our daughter and said he had to go. His fantasy life has ended but the fact that he's feeling loss doesn't seem to make me feel any happier and it doesn't appear to increase the likelihood that we'll reconcile in the future. I'm just sharing that so you can see the same could potentially happen in your case. It seems like it would help to bring closure when the other person feels loss, but strangely enough it doesn't seem to work that way.

Originally Posted by Maika

You have ZERO control over how, when, and what loss she will feel. That timeline is completely out of your hands. Let it go.

Not looking to control in Makia, just trying to understand it.
I have said this before on other posts, i know her personality type is going to lead to her trying to manipulate me again down the road. I need to be as prepared for that and have a full understanding of it so when (not if) she comes back in trying to manipulate me, i have the proper knowledge and emotional defenses to NOT get roped back into an abusive relationship.
I recognize that right now, i am susceptible to that. I have not fully detached, and gotten over her.

please understand my desire for understanding comes from a place of defense and self preservation.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Also,

You keep saying:

Quote

Im not hoping for loss to get her back.

Are you trying to convince us? Or yourself? (This is not to answer, just to think about.)

I will answer, because I have answered this question several times, and nobodfy seems to believe me.

I am not trying to convince anyone. It is a fact I am fully aware of. I dont need to convince any of you of this fact, and certainly not myself.
See my reply to Makia.

Why is it nobody can seem to believe that I want knowledge about how she will act / react for the sole purpose of keeping myself emotionally defended?

Originally Posted by NicoleR

OrangeK, there are signs that my husband has been feeling loss similar to what you describe you wish your wife would feel. Oddly enough, it doesn't seem to make much difference in the overall situation. Last night, once again, my husband started crying on the phone when he did FaceTime with our daughter and said he had to go. His fantasy life has ended but the fact that he's feeling loss doesn't seem to make me feel any happier and it doesn't appear to increase the likelihood that we'll reconcile in the future. I'm just sharing that so you can see the same could potentially happen in your case. It seems like it would help to bring closure when the other person feels loss, but strangely enough it doesn't seem to work that way.

I dont want to reconcile.
Really. I wish people would believe me when i say this.
PDWIFE is a toxic manipulator. All i want is to know MY best methods and knowledge to keep myself emotionally defended when she decides to manipulate again. It will happen. Past Patterns Prove this.

Do i miss her sometimes? Yea, i do.
Do i wish we were still together and happy? Yes.
Do i recognize the massive abuse she put me through? You bet.
Would i allow such abuse again? Never
Can i recognize that despite missing her, or R is dead and she is an abusive partner, and i deserve better?
YES.

Do i have the right to want to know as much as I can to keep myself safe and healing?
Yes. I do.

Does that mean that I want her back, that I am obsessed or deliberately denying detachment?
No. It doesnt.

Quote

Why is it nobody can seem to believe that I want knowledge about how she will act / react for the sole purpose of keeping myself emotionally defended?

Because we've all been there. Because we can see in your stream of consciousness posts that there is still that pull of caring about what she is feeling/thinking. Because true detachment means you don't give a single bit about her feeling of loss, whether she stays with OM or not, etc. And until we truly detach, then we are still attached.

Anyway, again, I knew how'd you answer. I was looking for you to do some self reflection is all. Her thoughts, feelings, emotions, sense of loss, lack of sense of loss has ZERO to do with your emotional state. Unless you let it have an effect.

OK, you're going to be okay because you work hard at it. All we are doing is trying to help you with the journey.

OrangeK, I interpreted your last few messages to read that you want your wife to feel loss and to realize what she's done but I didn't see anything that indicated you want her back. It seems pretty clear it's too late for you to want her back. I apologize if my message seemed to respond to the wrong point - I was just trying to say that my husband is kind of doing what you wish your wife would do but it doesn't seem to be helping me to feel much better (or worse, or anything at all).

Originally Posted by NicoleR

OrangeK, I interpreted your last few messages to read that you want your wife to feel loss and to realize what she's done but I didn't see anything that indicated you want her back. It seems pretty clear it's too late for you to want her back. I apologize if my message seemed to respond to the wrong point - I was just trying to say that my husband is kind of doing what you wish your wife would do but it doesn't seem to be helping me to feel much better (or worse, or anything at all).

Nicole, no need to apologize. I just saw where you mentioned reconcillation. It seemed like you thought that was still my goal.

I appreciate you letting me know that seeing it happen isnt helping.
that is useful.

Originally Posted by OrangeK

Do i miss her sometimes? Yea, i do.
Do i wish we were still together and happy? Yes.
Do i recognize the massive abuse she put me through? You bet.
Would i allow such abuse again? Never
Can i recognize that despite missing her, or R is dead and she is an abusive partner, and i deserve better?
YES.

Do i have the right to want to know as much as I can to keep myself safe and healing?
Yes. I do.

Does that mean that I want her back, that I am obsessed or deliberately denying detachment?
No. It doesnt.

Agree with everything except: "Do i have the right to want to know as much as I can to keep myself safe and healing?
Yes. I do."

First, knowing as much as you can has zero to do with being safe and healing. Second, a "right" is still trying to exert control over her. In reality you have no right to knowledge she doesn't want to share. Why? Because you cannot control her. Second, because no one EVER knows the entire truth. This is even true when you are in a MR with another person! That is why self-differentiation is so important in a MR. You cannot control the other person. They are going to think what they want, feel what they want, and do what they want. When we are unhealthily attached is when we feel out of control when we can't control our spouse. When we are self-differentiated then we are healthy and safe despite what we don't know.

This is especially true once we encounter a WAS scenario. This is why detachment is so important. Because that separation, for the overly attached, is a scary place to be. And without differentiating....without detaching, we will emotionally continued to hold on for dear life.

The only right you have is the right to know anything that affects your son's well-being. Above and beyond that, there is no such thing as a right to knowledge.

OK, I follow your sitch and have only commented a few times.

MHO, I think what everyone is trying to get across to you is that you cannot prepare yourself for every situation that might arise from your stbxw's actions. Working on yourself is the best defense for everything. If you are good with you, what does it matter what she does or how she acts? If she creates a situation, and you are in a great place personally and you are again good with who you are, you will simply shrug off her actions since outside of her being the mother of your child, she doesn't matter to you any more emotionally. See where I am going?

WAY easier said than done and I struggle with this DAILY myself. BUT, each day I see myself detaching more and better than that, I feel myself getting stronger within myself and re-discovering who I am again.

Somedays are still rollercoaster he!!. And others are just the ones you are down. I do my best to keep my head up around my W and children (we still live in the same home). Not overly enthusiastic unless something good truly happens, and definitely not faking it.

My point is that no one is telling you that you want to control her. It just seems like you are way to attached to what she might do or act. Don't let her be the center of your world any longer. Your innermost circle is you and your child. Period.

Take care of you. Take care of your child. The rest will take care of itself.

This isn't easy and there are many here pulling for you and I see the improvements you have made over the past months.

Originally Posted by JustSad

OK, I follow your sitch and have only commented a few times.

MHO, I think what everyone is trying to get across to you is that you cannot prepare yourself for every situation that might arise from your stbxw's actions. Working on yourself is the best defense for everything. If you are good with you, what does it matter what she does or how she acts? If she creates a situation, and you are in a great place personally and you are again good with who you are, you will simply shrug off her actions since outside of her being the mother of your child, she doesn't matter to you any more emotionally. See where I am going?

WAY easier said than done and I struggle with this DAILY myself. BUT, each day I see myself detaching more and better than that, I feel myself getting stronger within myself and re-discovering who I am again.

Somedays are still rollercoaster he!!. And others are just the ones you are down. I do my best to keep my head up around my W and children (we still live in the same home). Not overly enthusiastic unless something good truly happens, and definitely not faking it.

My point is that no one is telling you that you want to control her. It just seems like you are way to attached to what she might do or act. Don't let her be the center of your world any longer. Your innermost circle is you and your child. Period.

Take care of you. Take care of your child. The rest will take care of itself.

This isn't easy and there are many here pulling for you and I see the improvements you have made over the past months.

"and there are many here pulling for you" So true! I am probably overly attached to your sitch OK, because I so want to see you "safe and healing" as you say. I have invested more emotionally into your sitch than anyone else's here save my own! That is why when you react strongly, my initial response is to pull back. Because maybe I am too emotionally invested in a sitch I have no say in. But JS nailed it on the head.

Originally Posted by Steve85

Quote

Why is it nobody can seem to believe that I want knowledge about how she will act / react for the sole purpose of keeping myself emotionally defended?

Because we've all been there. Because we can see in your stream of consciousness posts that there is still that pull of caring about what she is feeling/thinking. Because true detachment means you don't give a single bit about her feeling of loss, whether she stays with OM or not, etc. And until we truly detach, then we are still attached.

Anyway, again, I knew how'd you answer. I was looking for you to do some self reflection is all. Her thoughts, feelings, emotions, sense of loss, lack of sense of loss has ZERO to do with your emotional state. Unless you let it have an effect.

OK, you're going to be okay because you work hard at it. All we are doing is trying to help you with the journey.

I know youre helping Steve, and you do help. A lot.
Its just tough because i have explained this several times, and its frustrating to mean and believe something and have nobody take you seriously about it.

I dont 100% agree with this.

"there is still that pull of caring about what she is feeling/thinking. Because true detachment means you don't give a single bit about her feeling of loss, whether she stays with OM or not, etc"

I dont care about her FEELING of loss. It comes down to he justice / karma thing.
She simply doesn't deserve to get anything she wants, or feel successful in her R with OM.
I dont care if she is with OM. thats a fact i accepted a long time ago.

Hammurabi's Code. thats all I want to see occur Steve. Its only fair. I seek balance.

"Her thoughts, feelings, emotions, sense of loss, lack of sense of loss has ZERO to do with your emotional state. Unless you let it have an effect."

Agreed. I had a hard emotional spin out last night. You can see it building in my posts yesterday, when i got to my "Explaining Anger" post, i was calling myself a 3.5 out of 5 on my "Anger Scale"
I reached critical mass last night, and then had a HARD cry with SIL.

SIL, Brother and I had a long chat about anger and emotion.
i explained it like this.

My anger is a bucket under a gutter. It eventually fills, and tips over and spills.
In the past, it would only fill when there was a "Downpour" or some external event that was actively making me angry. This was a very very rare occurrence. maybe once or twice a year?
However since BD, i get "Steady rain".
Even if there is no "Downpour" type of event occurring, the bucket still slowly fills a bit each day, seemingly for no reason. When it starts getting close to full during these "Slow fills" i start feeling the anxiety symptoms outlined in my "stages of anger" post. Then its just a matter of time before the bucket is to full not to spill over, even without an external event "filling" it.
these "Slow fills" never happened before or with PDWIFE, but since the emotional damage and scarring, it has become a fairly predictable cycle.

Still waiting to hear back from IC, and a few new ones i called.
I need to discuss detachment, trauma bond healing, anger issues, self-image issues and possible meds with a professional. I feel if i do not i will keep just running the same circle.
Bucket fill, Bucket Spill, Bucket chill.
Bucket Fill, Bucket Spill, Bucket Chill.

F**K it, i dont want the bucket.

I want to plant a flower garden under the gutter instead.
TO filter the the "Rain" that is my anger, into beautiful growing things.

You're out for blood and revenge and anger. None of that is ever going to help you. You need to figure out how to get past it and deal with it. She may never feel loss. She may go on to have a fabulous life filled with everything she wants. Yeh, life is unfair. Get over it. I am not trying to be flippant, but you get caught in loops and you need to develop a strategy to figure how not to get caught in that web. That's the pattern I've seen with you.

Also, here is the best thing I have heard about revenge and anger - it is a poison you feed yourself believing the other person will die.

Waiting for karma/justice is like trying to cook an egg on the pavement in winter. It's not going to happen in your timeline. there is absolutely no sense in waiting for it.

And wanting revenge, and holding onto anger, keeps you trapped, not her. In a sense, you are still giving her control over you. Until you learn to let go of "need for justice" she will always have that hold over you. That is what I was getting at with this all meaning (and I know you already know this) that you aren't truly attached.

Ok - You have to make your life so wonderful and filled with happiness that you no longer care about revenge, H�s code or anything else. It does take time to get there but that is a place you need to achieve. For me that will be my ultimate revenge.

Please stop using the word revenge. Its never what i said i wanted. I dont want revenge. I want equality.

Steve, Yes, i still have detachment to work on, we all know that.
I have a compunction to think my sitch has gone on for such a long time, when in retrospect it really is still quite fresh.
I posted about this yesterday. Your thoughts on that post??

Joseph, i agree that true apathy will be the best form of ascension.
Again i dont want to use the word revenge, as it is not what i seek.
Equality.
Fairness.
Balance.
Not Revenge. Revenge implies I want to see her brought low, simply for my own sadistic satisfaction. Not the case. That wouldn't do any good for me, and it would be detrimental to S3.

I want her to experience loss so she hits bottom and potentially (shot in the dark here, really) sees the need to go to IC, to look inward herself, as I have been doing, and strives to become a better person and mother for S3, and herself.
She is perpetually miserable, but hides it.
I dont want to R with her, but I do want her to be her best self. itll be better for all involved that way.
Just to clarify my want for "Revenge" H's Code, or whatever way you want to describe it.

Just think about it OK...remember you have to play your long game. Slow and steady wins the race. Fast forward your life 5 yrs from now and you own your own home, are taking s8 on fabulous vacations and you have a job that you love, provides a great income, and you have a W that is totally in love with you.

Mean while you EW is with her 3rd guy, still lives at home and can�t provide for herself.

Is that equality?

Quote

there is still that pull of caring about what she is feeling/thinking. Because true detachment means you don't give a single bit about her feeling of loss, whether she stays with OM or not, etc"

I dont care about her FEELING of loss. It comes down to he justice / karma thing.
She simply doesn't deserve to get anything she wants, or feel successful in her R with OM.
I dont care if she is with OM. thats a fact i accepted a long time ago.

Hammurabi's Code. thats all I want to see occur Steve. Its only fair. I seek balance.

So, what if you don't get this?

I never got justice, my ex never got karma. Does he deserve it? Nope. But it is what it is.

Just is not always served. And rarely is it served in the way you want.

I got "mine" by not being in an emotionally abusive R anymore. I didn't get it in any other form that I originally hoped for.

So tell me, what is your game plan if justice is never served?

Originally Posted by Joseph9

Just think about it OK...remember you have to play your long game. Slow and steady wins the race. Fast forward your life 5 yrs from now and you own your own home, are taking s8 on fabulous vacations and you have a job that you love, provides a great income, and you have a W that is totally in love with you.

Mean while you EW is with her 3rd guy, still lives at home and can�t provide for herself.

Is that equality?

Joe, good points. Let me dissect it a bit, for realism's sake.

"Fast forward your life 5 yrs from now and you own your own home"
Let's say "have a great new apartment".
The likelyhood of me buying a house in the next 5 years is QUITE minimal.
My credit is like 580. Im not saving money, paycheck to paycheck, as it has always been in my life (New England is an expensive place to live sadly.)
So barring winning the lottery or having some crazy new job with a 150% pay increase fall in my lap, i doubt that'll happen.

"are taking s8 on fabulous vacations"
Again, this will be tough to accomplish, road trips and camping, no problem. Jetsetting to Europe. Unlikely lol.

"you have a job that you love, provides a great income"
This is a more feasible goal.
My job i have now is good, gets me by, but its not my passion.
Im refocusing my efforts back to 110% on getting onto a full time Fire Dept.
I was HARD CHARGING at that goal when i thought my MR was going well, then BD happened when i was in my most recent Firefighter Certification Program, and it sapped all the passion i had for the job away for quite some time. My interest, motivation and determination in the regard is just now coming back. I take that as a sign of positive forward movement though, to be rekindling my old passions.

"and you have a W that is totally in love with you."
Here is where I diverge.
I DO NOT plan on getting married again within the next 5 years.
I moved WAY too fast into living with PDWIFE, Getting pregnant, engaged and married. All for nothing.
I need to put myself first, and If i were married 5 years from now, i would see that as moving far to fast and hard into a New R. I am not opposed to dating in that timeframe, or even being in a serious commited R, but married is a bit of a stretch. I will admit, at this juncture, getting married again is going to be a HARD SELL. Same thing with having other children. Im quite weary to trust someone that wholly again anytime soon.

"Mean while you EW is with her 3rd guy, still lives at home and can�t provide for herself."

This is a very likely scenario. If you have seen posts from me before about how closely PDWIFE has followed in her parents R footsteps. Apples, Trees, and the distance from which they fall and all that.
She is currently stuck between staying at her moms, or OM's parents house, as he also lives with his parents.

Mother in Law - on Husband #3, is 56 years old, has never owned her own home, rents a crappy little 2BR condo, of which PDWIFE allegedly lives at, with MIL, Step-FIL, S3 and a dog and a cat. The place is tiny and cluttered.
MIL works 3 jobs to pay for her silly mid life crisis lifestyle, and to support Step-FIL, who is a drunk layabout who barely works. Her 2nd husband lasted about 4 years, and she obviously didnt profit from either of her divorces...

Father in Law - Used to have a lucrative business, but tanked his company about a decade ago. He is 58, has had a stroke and a myocardial infarction last year, he lives with his 78 year old mother, and barely works. He has also been divorced twice, and the 2nd Divorce was really really nasty. because he molested his 2nd Daughter and got caught and carged. This is why neither he or PDWIFE are allowed to see his 2nd Daughter, PDWIFE's Half Sister. They havent seen her since 2007.

"Is that equality?"
Equality? perhaps not.
However it would be fitting for her to have to eat the meal she cooked for herself.
She would try to blame me or others for her misfortune, but her status is on her.
We had a nice home, good jobs, a comfortable schedual and supportive families.
If she chose to throw that all away within the first year of M, so be it.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

So, what if you don't get this?

I guess ill just deal with it. Its not like ill wither and die without it. Is it what i want? Yea. Do i feel i deserve to see tihs occur? Yea. Does it mean it will, or ill see it if it does? No.
Will i survive? Eff yes.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

I never got justice, my ex never got karma. Does he deserve it? Nope. But it is what it is.

That Sux. You deserve to know balance occurred, the Universe owes you that much IMHO. It still may someday, or it may not.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

Just is not always served. And rarely is it served in the way you want.

Ok, so because of that fact, im not allowed to think about it at all? Want it? or talk about it?
I come to this board to vent and be honest about my internal emotions, and i feel as though I am given demerits more often then the topic is actually articulately discussed.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

I got "mine" by not being in an emotionally abusive R anymore. I didn't get it in any other form that I originally hoped for.

Im enjoying not being abused anymore. Again, your sitch is your sitch, your feelings are your feelings.

Originally Posted by Ginger1

So tell me, what is your game plan if justice is never served?

Put my big boy pants on and deal with it.
its not like its medicine for a terminal illness im talking about here.
If you have some image of me pining for this information and crumbling without it, please discard that image. For it is not accurate.
Just because i want something to happen doesnt mean I am vitally relying on it.

Quote

Sandi - Does this sound like the type of "Losses" you refer to ?

With regard to a WW, it either has to be a particular consequence, or an accumulation of consequences, that are the result of her wayward behavior/decisions. I think she has to mentally make that connection. It opens her eyes to see her reality as a result of her choices. When her eyes are opened, the fog is lifted and the fantasy crumbles. Her mind can clear to where she can think objectively.

I want to go on record as saying that even if the WW gets her eyes opened...�..it doesn't mean she is going to do what she should, in order to straighten up her life. Okay? It's not an automatic fix. She may get her eyes opened, but that doesn't mean she'll repent. That's a whole other topic. WW's have a stubborn pride that will prevent some of them from apologizing or trying to right what they have wronged. So, it depends on the individual. Personally, I believe if the WW had formally been religious or morally upright, then those values will weigh on her heart......but then, some people choose to live with guilt, rather than apologize and do the right thing.

I hope I have answered your question.

Nobody is giving you demerits. We try to give you other perspectives.

For instance, you mention the "balance of the universe". That sounds fantastical. That might be the way things work in the fantasy realm of the games you play, or the books you read, or the movie you watch. But in reality that isn't the way it works. The rich get richer. Some people act like scumbags and skate through life. George Burns smoked cigars for most of his 100 years. Most people will tell you that you are lucky to live to 70 by smoking. Yet I've known people that never smoked a day in their life that died of cancer at 45. There is no justice and balance to a natural universe that has randomness within the laws that govern it.

Farther along we'll know all about it. For now we just have to accept that this is the way it is. Or we'll have a very miserable existence.

"Balance of the universe" was used for lack of a better term, but i do earnestly believe in Karmic retribution, that you reap what you sow and so forth.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Quote

Sandi - Does this sound like the type of "Losses" you refer to ?

With regard to a WW, it either has to be a particular consequence, or an accumulation of consequences, that are the result of her wayward behavior/decisions. I think she has to mentally make that connection. It opens her eyes to see her reality as a result of her choices. When her eyes are opened, the fog is lifted and the fantasy crumbles. Her mind can clear to where she can think objectively.

I want to go on record as saying that even if the WW gets her eyes opened...�..it doesn't mean she is going to do what she should, in order to straighten up her life. Okay? It's not an automatic fix. She may get her eyes opened, but that doesn't mean she'll repent. That's a whole other topic. WW's have a stubborn pride that will prevent some of them from apologizing or trying to right what they have wronged. So, it depends on the individual. Personally, I believe if the WW had formally been religious or morally upright, then those values will weigh on her heart......but then, some people choose to live with guilt, rather than apologize and do the right thing.

I hope I have answered your question.

Sandi,

As always, yes it does help answer my question.
Your way with words is so great. every time you post it sheds more light.

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