Hi Everyone, here's the last thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2796866&page=11Maika, you do a great job of summarizing everything in a concise way! I'm sure I'd write 10X that amount to try to say the same thing. Thanks for your encouragement. I think I could have done a lot better than I've done but I guess I had to get healthy to even plan anything, then accept that there'd be no reconciliation under the circumstances of us living near my husband in our old state, and now not even depending on my husband financially. I appreciate all your comments and support since last fall. It took a lot of strength to cut-off almost all contact with my husband and probably only the members of this forum can understand that. Maika, I hope you don't disappear like so many people here do. I hope you'll let us know how things turn out!
Nicole after reading more on your sitch and encouraging you to continue to stay positive and move forward.I was wondering if you have read a book called The gifts of imperfections by Brene Brown. She also has some TED talks videos. This may help you see the beautiful person you are and how you deserve the best. I continue to cheer you and encourage you thru this difficult passage. Blessings!
Nicole - an external observer can look at someone's sitch and do that concise summary because they can see the bigger picture. The smaller details are important for the process, but the larger elements indicate the achievements and success.
I have also appreciated your support on my threads and I am glad that you've stuck around so that we've been able to see your journey and transformations along the way.
I won't start a new thread unless something major changes happen in my sitch. I've come to a grounded place and now I am just biding time to make sure my emotions match my thinking and when that's in alignment, I will file for D. W sent me a text a few days ago and it was jarring and I got some anxiety for a couple of seconds when I saw the notification flash on my phone. It quickly went away, but because our communications are so sparse, it kinda jolted me to see her send me a message.
So, I thought about that for a while to see why I might've reacted that way. I believe it was because the 12 months separation are up and I guess I am just waiting for a message to come from her about D. I think it was subconscious but my reaction allowed me to do some introspection. I haven't reacted to her message like that previously. But once I understood why I reacted that way, it allowed me to relax and just examine the issue of D a bit more closely and see how I really feel about it. Part of me wants to just file and get it over with, but that's coming out of a place of impatience and being tired. I am not trying to achieve perfection in this process, but I don't want to do it half-a$$.
I am not planning to disappear, but I definitely will be spending less time here in the coming months. All the newcomer stories are disheartening and it sometimes takes me back to BD and how that went down for me and how I felt. I spend some more time on the Surviving section to read up on what's life like after D. I am so close to that and it makes sense to read up there.
After a year, and when I read other posters who come back and give a few nuggets, one thing that has really stuck with me is how this would be so much better for the LBS if they dropped the rope and moved ahead with their life full steam. I know it's hard because it's such an emotional time for the LBS that they can't engage in that right away. That would be my advice to anyone looking to make sense of all of this and find some peace.
Anyways, continue on your path and make that life for yourself. You have passed the survival stage, and now it's time to thrive and shine.
After a year, and when I read other posters who come back and give a few nuggets, one thing that has really stuck with me is how this would be so much better for the LBS if they dropped the rope and moved ahead with their life full steam. I know it's hard because it's such an emotional time for the LBS that they can't engage in that right away. That would be my advice to anyone looking to make sense of all of this and find some peace.
This is great advice.
Perfectly put Maika, Nicole is a survivor. Now it’s time to shine
LoneWlf, I haven't read the book. I'll try to buy and read it. Thanks!
Maika, did you and your wife talk about staying separated for 12 months before divorce or does your state / province require a year long separation before you can file? It does sound better for you to look forward rather than backward here on the forum. Sure you can help those who are behind in the process but if that keeps reminding you of painful memories then it's great to look ahead and see how people are doing in the next stage. I think dropping the rope and moving ahead full-steam is the ideal but not everyone is capable of that when they're in a state of shock, denial, or sadness. It would be great to have that sense of resiliency. I'm sure there are some who have that, but they're probably not the ones who come to this forum. Those would be the ones who don't need this forum. Those who come here still want to save their marriages, but if less than 10% can be saved, then I can see why it makes more sense to face reality and just move on for those that can pull it off.
Arsh and Maika, let's consider the end of the survival stage to be when I start working full-time! Currently I don't know how we'll pay the bills beyond August. I subsidized with savings and retirement ever since our daughter was born so now we're at a critical stage. As soon as I can pay the bills on my own I'll feel that I've reached the end of the survival stage. I wasn't expecting my husband to lose his job and for me to be rushing to work full-time but it makes sense if my husband screwed up the rest of his life that he'd do the same to his career. But I am better off now than last fall. At least my health condition is managed better and I'm living in a better apartment and my daughter is adapting well. I'll post new developments as they happen.
I agree, being financially stable is most important, have you looked at drawing a separation agreement for child support? Which would mandate your H to pay you child support S or D irrespective of having a job or not
Hi Arsh, both my current and previous states don't allow separation agreements. It's bizarre! Last fall I had my husband sign a separation agreement that I prepared to at least have something formalized between us. He's honored it and he's provided everything I've requested up until now. Hopefully he'll find a new job and he'll keep helping, but I need to make sure I can cover our costs without him. I think that's the final step in detaching because then I won't count on him for anything. He'll definitely have to pay child support and spousal support as well as cash to help us buy our own house, etc.. if we get divorced but I'd rather not have everything hinge on that happen. If I'm capable of working then I should work rather than sit back and depend on him. I've been working the whole time, just not bringing in enough to pay all the bills. I hope I can do it without totally sacrificing my daughter's wellbeing. How do you do it? Do your girls go to daycare for the full day?
Nicole - my W and I were not on the same page about the separation. I thought this was to take some time away, re-think things, work on the marriage through counseling. But a few months after BD, when I had the final talk with her about our R, she point blank told me that this was permanent. At that point, I decided that I was not going to waffle on DB and just figure out my life for myself. Yes, legally we have to wait 12 months before either party can file for D. You can file earlier if you can prove infidelity or abuse etc. So, those 12 months are up.
I agree that it is hard to drop the rope when you get here. Most people are going through a lot of turmoil and so are unable to do it. I just think if it's possible to do it, then one should just do it. But I know it's very difficult to have that larger perspective in the beginning.
About your financial situation, I totally see what you're saying. I really like your vision on being financially self-reliant. I always say that one thing the LBS has to do is become self-reliant in all aspects of their lives because you should not count on the other person to do what needs to get done. Unfortunately we see here all the time the WS/WAS dropping the ball on their responsibilities, and the consequences are so much higher when kids are involved.
So, yeh, that will be the final survival stage marker for you. But you've come very far and now it's just a matter of reaching that financial marker. Keep us posted for sure. I will come back and post when it makes sense for my sitch.
Maika, I'm glad your state or province requires 12 months. I think that's how it should be everywhere. Then people like Arsh's husband can't just go and get divorced at the spur-of-the-moment within a few weeks. In any case you made it through those 12 months so that's a big achievement. It's still just bizarre what your wife has done but I guess that's the norm here on this forum. Nothing seems shocking anymore after what you read here!
I was self-reliant even through my teenage years, working from age 13 while still doing extra curricular activities and focusing on school. I paid all of my college and graduate school myself, worked in college to support myself, and I supported my husband financially for the first seven years. I was looking forward to having the freedom to start a unique consulting firm that would have created some fascinating partnerships in the area where we lived after my husband finally started working. It was pretty much the first time that someone was offering me some financial freedom and now that's all totally gone. Now it's back to being self-reliant again plus having a dependent. I guess it was only a beautiful dream, the life my husband promised me.
All, I do have a question that doesn't appear to have been discussed recently on this forum. Has anyone read about a parent - child relationship between married partners? I was thinking how this best defines how things were between my husband and I. I searched online and found many articles that define this relationship although not much that provides guidance on how to fix it. Because my husband came from overseas and I was the financial provider I had to teach him everything about life here and he always felt he had to ask me for money or permission for whatever he wanted to do. Then when we had our daughter I was literally a parent. He started to regress after our daughter was born and he's literally been like a teenager these past few years - irresponsible, rebellious, self-absorbed, materialistic, and private. I guess this is also how they describe a mid-life crisis but I do wonder if the dynamic between my husband and I was partly to blame. Perhaps I should have helped him become a refugee here in the US instead of marrying him so he can stay. Then I should have dated him while we lived separately and waited for him to build his career. Probably the time he left is the time we should have married - when he got a job. Maybe my husband is just an immoral cheater but my sense is if he would have been on his own from the beginning he wouldn't have taken me for granted or seen me as a parent figure. It's rare in the Middle East for men to live from their wives' salaries and stay at home while their wives work. Maybe we were doomed from the start. If we had just been dating and I found out he was with other women I would have just broken it off without tying his cheating with so many of my hopes and dreams derived from our married life. It's too late now, but I see what a risk it is to sponsor someone to come here on a visa no matter how great they seem. It doesn't change anything now, but I accept the blame for having been naïve and overly helpful toward someone who had no problem ditching me the minute a beautiful younger woman offered the opportunity for fun and recreation. Too bad we learn these lessons in life after we have kids and their lives are affected by our bad choices. I hope there will be some justice in the divorce process if that's our next step.
The divorce process is not a place to get justice. It's simply the business part of the divorce.
Kml, maybe so. In my mind I was thinking divorce will force my husband to face reality, look at numbers on a piece of paper (he has no concept of a budget), and realize how expensive divorce is and how he's losing financial freedom to gain his freedom as a bachelor. I guess justice is the wrong word but I wish for him to feel that he's also losing something. In January he said he'd give up everything to gain his freedom. I hope he's figuring out he can't just have total freedom with no consequences.
Yesterday I took my daughter to a lake where my husband and I used to go. It was across from a grocery store where we were shopping and I said "let's stop by the lake where your father and I used to go and feed the fish." Later when my husband called our daughter on facetime she said "today we went to the mommy-daddy lake...." My husband asked me if that's the lake across from the grocery story and I said yes. He said "yeah" in a very sad way. His eyes were already puffy and then he started crying and said he had to go.
There's still nothing at all from my husband about being sorry or reconciling. I know there may never be. But for now I think the party is over. I have a feeling the 26 year old broke things off a while back. Now my husband is jobless, alone, and probably can't stay living in our house. He might be gaining just an ounce of awareness as to how badly he screwed up.
Nicole, it looks like he's been slapped with a cold, hard dose of reality, and doesn't like it. Good. I don't know about you, and maybe I'm not as big a person as I should be, but I would have a certain sense of satisfaction about that. Karma.
What goes around comes around, he needs something strong to wake him up. Hopefully failure on multiple fronts will do it, but you cannot take him back as is even if he comes around. Stay strong Nicole he brought this on himself - arshi
Let him go Nicole, let him go.
(((Hugs)))
Jim, Arsh, and Neffer, thanks. I agree. He's still not coming back though....probably only feels sorry for himself.
I know I've been utilizing this forum heavily lately but I want to add another thought. This is what seems to happen - last night I took my daughter out on a stroller ride. We were enjoying the nice weather, laughing, and smiling, and suddenly my husband calls on Facetime. I hand the phone immediately to my daughter and she talks to him for a minute. Then he asks to talk to me. He said he's coming to visit the first weekend in August. I said "Great!" and nothing more. Then he said he's talking to an employer, conveniently, in the town where his family lives, about a temporary job. He said he hopes he gets it because he can visit our daughter more often. I said "Great!" again and then handed the phone back to my daughter. I just couldn't talk to him. His visits disturb our lives and I just can't be happy if he conveniently finds a job near his family's house. He already has a bedroom there. He and his brothers will live like ten year old boys with their father and maid cooking all their meals, cleaning up after them, and doing their laundry. They will lounge around playing video games and sleeping in and when he feels like it he will come to visit our daughter. I have so many negative thoughts about that. Here we are, his wife and child, living on our own, and he still after everything isn't sorry and he expects me to be happy to hear that he might be closer so he can visit our daughter?! So then of course the pleasant evening we were having isn't pleasant anymore. I can let my husband go action-wise, and be self-reliant, but I can't totally stop my thoughts. I know the reality is that my husband is still just thinking about himself and doesn't care about the welfare of my daughter and I. So even right now, as he confronts his failures, he's still not waking up and he's still not sorry so I doubt this situation will ever improve. It's so hard knowing I wasted all those years of my life helping someone and investing in someone, as well helping and investing in his whole family, just to be treated like this. I'm really, really sorry for my bad actions and I've repented before God repeatedly. I know now there's nothing I can do, so I just say "Great!" and hand the phone back, but it still affects me internally. I'd rather he stay living far away than to be nearby with "his" family while his abandoned family continues to struggle alone.
You live, you learn N. You don´t waste life N, you live life. You grow, you become stronger.
You raise your D. Life is about love. You give love, you get love. You don´t waste life doing that.
You are the lighthouse. Light is on
Neffer, I'll keep trying harder. I'm not constantly crying like I used to do, so I guess very slowly I'm learning, but you're right our time is so limited and I don't want to waste life. My daughter is also doing really great and I'm thankful for that.
Nicole,
Can we encourage you to start with baby steps? As I see it, you have so much potential of having a long, full and beautiful life. None of this needs to be hinged on anything to do with your WAH. It is all inside of you. How can we help you slowly shift your focus to creating a more beautiful life for you and D? I am referring to a life where whatever your WAH does/says or doesn't do/say no longer affects you, no longer affects your mood, your day/week, and how you live.
You see, even tho he has been checked out for so long, you (and only you) continue to give him complete control. It only takes a visit, a call, a conversation, or anything having to do with HIM, and it completely dictates how you feel and react. This is an extremely unhealthy level of codependency and as I see it, the reason you remain stuck.
Whether he is falling flat and comes running back or out shagging another young hotty in Dubai, does not have to control your life. You, and your D, deserve a life of love and happiness. That, my dear, starts within you. You have got to choose that you are happy and will be okay regardless of what he does. You have to believe this. How can you start taking baby steps so you can detach??? That is step one.
Blu
How can you start taking baby steps so you can detach??? That is step one.
Blu
Boy, I would love to figure this out, too!
I think, for me, it's just time, distance and GAL, but due to our schedules, there has to be a so much communication and coordination that distance seems to be very hard to come by.
Nic - Read Blu's message over and over. It reeks of truth.
You have to come to the realization your H may never say he is sorry. You have to accept this. You have to accept your H as the person he is now.
You can only control yourself. You did tremendously well by not engaging much in the phone and making it about your daughter - kudos!!! You are keeping yourself dark and making him wonder, but at the same time you really have to find a way to move forward. Remember my story??? Those 2 only made it back together because they moved on and kept living. It would have never happened if one sat pining and wondering what it and how they could turn that other person to one they fell in love with originally.
Could your M be saved? Quite possibly one day but not as it stands right now. Your H KNOWS you are still waiting for him. He KNOWS you may have moved 1000miles away but he still knows you want him desperately to notice you and to state he is so sorry for breaking your heart.
I know how much your are hurting Nic and you have every right to feel those disappointments in a promised future that isn't currently happening. That doesn't mean that there aren't great things in store for you and your D. Be open to new adventures and start creating new dreams for yourself and D. I truly understand the pain. I grieved more for my son not having both parents in the same home... being schlepped from house to house... becoming a statistic. It broke my heart more than anything. But, a therapist once told me - it just takes one good parent. That's it. And, there are lots of families living together in a war zone far worse than just being divorced. You will find your rhythm. All my friends are in awe of me for being the mother I am to my son and from the day he was born until he was 8yr old doing it pretty much 100% on my own. I worked a demanding job... long hours... so so pay. His dad was that token person who showed up twice a month for 2 days and not much else... couldn't even take him for a haircut. I survived and so will you.
You really should be keeping a gratitude journal daily - it really does help improve one's thought process.
HUGS!
This happens in waves, you get on your feet, go dark, and start to create space and healing. Then that FT happens and the darkness slams into you sending you into a spiral. How much I understand this, I could probably write a book.
I had finally let go, I felt some innocent part of me die but then a part of me, this steel wrapped in velvet, came forward. I knew my kids would be ok if I was the one dependable parent. I knew that there were plenty of men that would make good, strong partners and even good father-figures. And so I let the last strand go. I felt a weight lift and I finally came to the conclusion that I could not wish my WH to be anything, not even a decent man.
And then it happened.
I let go and he was given unfettered freedom to do anything he wanted. We stood in what would soon be his new home and I felt contentment knowing my children would be loved by 2 parents even if they those parents were not together. The reality slammed into WH face with full force and he staggered. Even now, while he works hard to turn himself around he is shocked at how close he danced to being without me. But we both know he could have easily continued on his destructive path. Heck, he could still backslide into his wayward ways.
But here's the difference now, he knows I am not to be taken for granted. I stared back at him when the final grain of sand fell and I didn't blink. I.Was.Done. Now he knows every day is a gift. Every moment is a chance for him to repair the damage and that is a huge bounty. But I had no expectations and still am just in observation mode.
Sister, I stand here and support you. I've been through this and have learned some very hard lessons. It's ok to be angry, to be heart broken, to feel betrayed. But it is not okay to make your life a Reaction to those feelings. My DB coach gave me this advise when WH was acting like a miserable @ss. He said to pretend WH was on life support and I had to just move forward in life. If WH ever came off life support and returned to me then good. But not to WAIT and HOPE that day would come. To live my life regardless of WH (in)actions.
It took me 2 years but I finally listened.
Hi BluWave, thanks for taking the time to post. I'm not totally sure how to respond. I feel like I took a somewhat radical approach by packing up my daughter and moving to a different part of the country without a job lined up to detach and start over. I found employment right away, re-connected with old friends, and now fill our weekends, afternoons, and evenings with fun and healthy activities. I stopped contacting my husband completely except for one time when my daughter was sick two months back. I can see how complete no contact is helpful because it helps someone to fully detach without continued setbacks. When you have kids that's not possible though. I guess I'm doing detachment in reverse where I've taken all the big steps and now I have to take little ones to resolve the final step which is the mental space my husband occupies just when he calls or when I see him. Thankfully the situation I described in my last post is an improvement from how I was reacting six or nine months ago. Back then I would cry uncontrollably and I would tell my husband what a bad father he was. Now I think externally I'm doing well but it's that last internal sense of injustice that I can't totally eliminate. To be honest I'm not sure if I can reach the point of totally not caring without lying to myself just yet, but one area where I've been trying to improve is trying to have a more positive attitude. The truth is no one knows what my husband is thinking just as he doesn't know what I'm thinking. He may be planning to spend more time with our daughter than what I expect. Feeling bitter and angry that he'll live like a 10 year old boy while his father and maid take care of him isn't a constructive mindset. It's more like a negative thought process derived from how my husband has been acting but there's always the potential for him to change. So I think I need to be more hopeful about his ability to change and be a better father even if he doesn't achieve it. And I know the proper response for a single person without kids would be to not care at all about what their spouse does, but my husband and I have 'co-parent' our daughter even if his part is 2% and mine is 98%. I'm still trying to figure this part out. I'll keep trying to channel my thoughts internally in a more positive direction. I'm about to start working full-time because my husband lost his job which means less time to see my daughter and more financial hardship, but again I'll try to be more positive and hopeful.
KitCat, thanks so much. My husband did apologize a week or two ago which I appreciated. It wasn't for cheating or leaving though, it was for losing his job and not being able to pay the bills. It was still better than nothing. My husband has no idea who he is right now or what he's doing. His life is out-of-control. I'll increase my work hours to full-time and manage with piecing together child care somehow to avoid letting his financial devastation bring us further down. I'm not so sure my husband thinks I'm waiting for him. He seemed quite concerned when he mistakenly thought I was dating someone and most of the time when he calls we're out and busy. I do, however, think he believes he could win me back because he did it once before very easily. That was a huge mistake on my part that I've written about here on this thread. There's nothing I can do about that now except not take him back easily if he ever tries to return. He won't realize until that point that he can't just come back. There's not really anything I can say to make him realize it because I failed the first time so my actions will have to show it next time (if ever). I do have new adventures planned - if I get divorced I'll take my daughter to a country in Europe next summer for a few months and possibly even stay there a bit longer so she can go to kindergarten there. Even if I don't get divorced I may do it anyway but it'll depend on finances. One ironic observation about your comment on families living in war zones being worse off - I've lived in the middle of active war zones and I found that war brings families together in a way that's unfathomable here in the West. Families are so strong and help each other so much during times of war that it creates a buffer against the hardships of war. They come home each day thankful to be alive and watch their favorite TV shows while they all eat together even knowing they could die that night in a bombing. Even when there's no electricity or food they laugh and make jokes together. If someone dies then 50 or 100 extended family members will risk their lives to come to the dead person's house to mourn together with the family for days. If one family has no money their relatives will lend them money. Because their governments can't protect them and they have no security they create it themselves among their families. Humans have an amazing way of adapting to all situations. You're a great role model by the way for raising your son alone. Hopefully your current husband tries to help so you gave your son a second chance at seeing how a mom and dad can live together and create a partnership while raising a family. Regarding the gratitude journal - I think I would if I had more time. For now I prefer to use any extra time to help others, to show gratitude towards others, and to write cards and messages of support to those in need including those here. For me this is more meaningful within my limits of time than keeping a journal for myself right now, but if I can get even more organized I'd love to create a joint gratitude journal for my daughter and I to record together. We do it verbally each day but I think the act of recording something on paper is more powerful so you're right about that being a good action to take.
PsySara, thanks for your support! It's amazing how you've had to let go and go through that process of starting over only to find your husband begging for forgiveness at the last minute. It's honestly shocking how a situation can be reversed like that but it's something we'd all love to have happen under the right circumstances. You created the right circumstances, knowingly or unknowingly, and I think your husband is also a better guy than mine. Even despite everything he's been living there at home and helping with the kids. Mine simply moved out and never could be bothered helping with our daughter. I think your husband is worth another chance even if he's at risk of backsliding because he's done everything you've asked to redeem himself. In my case all of that would have to happen before my husband would move back in, but I doubt he has any plan to do that. My husband is totally gone. I think for us it's either long-term separation or one of us will file for divorce in the next year. I doubt I'll file unless I need to do so for extreme financial reasons. But I'm trying to move on in every way possible, as written above it's just that internal head space that is the most challenging to overcome currently. I'd love to read your whole thread sometime and reflect on it to see what else I can learn from your situation and how you say you didn't listen to your DB coach for two years and then finally did. You know what I think would have 100% chance of bringing my husband back? If I got into a serious relationship with another man. I don't think my husband ever expects that to happen, and neither do I, but if some other man has 'his' wife and starts to raise 'his' daughter I know he wouldn't like that at all. I almost wish I could move on with someone else and just not care about my husband at that point but I'm just not into dating (partly an Islamic thing as you may understand) and there are no candidates. The lack of hope that I'll ever find another man that would fit all the criteria is one thing that holds me back but it sounds like you recognized there were other men you could envision being with who could be good fathers and that helped you to move forward. I'm curious as to how this works from a Muslim perspective - how do you do things the 'halal' way and take such a big risk at re-marrying without dating in the American sense? You didn't reach that point but it's something I wonder about. Every single Muslim I know is happily or at least securely married.
BluWave, there's something I forgot to say - I feel co-dependency is a controversial topic. I believe humans are hardwired for co-dependency. It's how we were designed to live interconnectedly as a species for survival. I think only in our Western societies are we encouraged to 'break the co-dependency cycle' because we here value independence and self-sufficiency but that's not how it is in most other parts of the world. So on one hand I recognize that I can't be co-dependent on a husband who walked away and will offer nothing in return, but I feel it's healthy and normal to be co-dependent on others as a human being. One of the problems we face in our Western society is that too much pressure goes on a married partner in the absence of living with the extended family who each play a role in helping make a family function. When it's just a husband and a wife alone without parents and relatives there cooking, cleaning, offering a listening ear, giving advice, lending money, and upholding a code of ethics then all the pressure goes on the other person to be everything that we can't be. We depend solely on that other person for our needs which can be unrealistic unless that other person is extraordinarily kind and selfless. There are also societies where the husband's only real job is to bring home money and he enjoys his leisure time with his male friends and the wife depends on her female friends and mother for emotional support. This is just my own observation from my international development career but I think sometimes our marriages are set-up for failure when there's not enough external support for the married couple. Again because we believe in independence and self-sufficiency we wouldn't necessarily want family members interfering in our lives but we're products of capitalism and we have the opportunity to receive both the benefits and disadvantages of this way of life. I think the world would be a better place if we're all co-dependent the way people are in poorer societies in developing countries but we live in an unequal society where that can't happen. Anyway I always write too much but I'll try to recognize the aspects of co-dependency in myself that need to change in this cultural context while still valuing the aspects that make marriages, families, and communities more successful in other cultural contexts.
Hey Nicole, coincidentally, I just so happen to be nearing the end of the audio for Codependent No More. I dont like the term codependent because it doesnt sound like what it is. You seem to be talking about a level of dependence that we would be able to reasonably expect from a partnership. Codependency is overcompensating for another persons severe underachievement. The underachievement in these cases is frequently a result of addiction of some sort on behalf of the underachiever and thus the codependent tries to make up for everything which enables the cycle to continue. In a normally functioning relationship, one partner doesnt typically become so enmeshed in the other that they cannot fathom letting the other person face the consequences of their own behavior. This is what a codependent does such that it ultimately takes over their life to the point that they completely lose their sense of self. See the difference?
When I think of codependency I think of my mother. She does so many things for others that she isn't taking care of her emotional and other needs. When someone explains a stressful situation she immediately starts thinking of ways to make their lives easier, to her own detrement. She doesn't listen and validate there problems she starts fixing. If you do things for others that you really don't want to do, then feel resentful about it, you may be codependent. I do this often, think if I don't do something I will upset someone, so I do it but I'm not doing it with love. Laundry, taking care of children, packing H lunch etc I don't think go into codependency. It's all the other stuff. I'm also about halfway through codependency no more. I read it a year ago and thought I needed to read it again.
Helena, yeah, I see the difference. I've read about co-dependency and the definition but I think there's root cause. My theory on the root cause might be totally wrong. It's not based on any research. I think in any case we'd all benefit from diversifying our social networks so we don't depend so much on one partner but it sounds like co-dependency in a clinical sense fits a very narrow definition and I'm not an expert in any way. I feel I've had elements of co-dependency in my marriage, some good and some bad. In my case I've been through five counselors and a psychologist since this all started and no one has diagnosed co-dependency. Has anyone that for you? I feel a lot of my uncertainty about these things is you never know who's qualified to diagnose them. But we can always keep learning and improving without waiting for someone else to give a name to what we're feeling or how we're acting right? I'll try to look more into the actual treatment for co-dependency rather than just focus on the cause. I hope you're getting some good info for yourself.
All, so my husband just randomly called to talk while our daughter is at school. He talked about his job search and what he's been up to. It was a very normal mundane conversation. He talked and only asked me one question the whole time about some friends of ours. It seemed he just felt like talking. It seemed ok. I don't feel emotional or hopeful or disgruntled. I sounded supportive but not too enthusiastic. I write a lot about my internal feelings but on the outside the relationship has been steadily improving. A few others here have written that as soon as they got divorced or accepted their husband or wife's announcement to divorce then their walkaway spouse became nice again. Maybe that's how it is with my husband. Or maybe we're taking small steps towards reconciling but I don't really want to think about that. I feel I can be friends with my husband for as long as we're both single. We'll see.
So hard to figure out why they are being nice, or mean, for that matter. It's not worth the effort. I wouldn't get my hopes up either, I'm like you in that way. Prepare for the worst, hope for the best.
By the time you completely let go, you may be done with the relationship. That's the thing, you just never know how you're going to feel at any point in the journey. So you work on yourself and do what you can to make your life the best it can be.
Good luck Nicole
MMM12, seems like a fine balance between being a good person who lends a helping hand and being an unhealthy person emotionally who does these things for the wrong reasons. It's hard! We can probably all label ourselves with one thing or another. It's great whenever we find a book or resource that corresponds with how we need to improve ourselves. I'll try to get that book as well. I hope it helped you and you've found yourself making progress.
One friend suggested "He's Scared, She's Scared." It's about people who have "commitment-conflict." These are people have trouble staying in long-term relationships. Apparently there are people like many of our spouses and partners here that have "post-commitment anxiety." They develop a sort of claustrophobia from being closed-in by their relationships or children after getting married or moving in together and feel a need to break free.
There are so many ways to analyze ourselves and our spouses. It's great that we do that for ourselves as part of our GAL's and 180's. It reminds me to read more of these books. There are a few that you all suggested here, including the one LoneWlf suggested, that I want to order and read.
Ovrrnbow, yes totally. I wonder what percentage of all our posts on this forum are written about trying to understand things we can never understand. How much time do we waste, including myself? I've been so bad at that. You seem like you're making great progress on your journey!
Hi again Nic,
I wonder what percentage of all our posts on this forum are written about trying to understand things we can never understand. How much time do we waste, including myself? I've been so bad at that.
This is called being human. This is called being a problem solver. This can lead to ingenuity and the invention of things that make life better. Unfortunately for us- we are trying to understand something that defies logic. We all have built in systems to want to repair what is broken- but what is broken in our spouses we do not have the tools or the ability to fix . They must take their journey on their own and hopefully come out better after the process. This is my wish for all of us here. Still wishing the best for you! Blessings!
Get most books from library Nicole, I have come to realize if I just wait a bit most libraries carry them and your local one can order one for you. I know what you mean by how R could be improving but we vent here about our frustrations. Again with DBing since we cannot be friends with WAS we cannot share our feelings with them so we vent here. Your WH seems to at least try to connect with your D frequently so that is definitely an improvement.
i love what Sara said to think of your S as if he is on life support. I tell myself a ton of these things too
- he is leaving because he is mentally ill
- it is similar to taking a job somewhere far away and being able to see kids only for some days a week ( i have no explanation of my absence in this imaginary excuse)
- he has already died and this is someone else in his body
- maybe I will really do something out of the ordinary that other moms will not think of doing just living their regular lives
whatever lie we can tell ourselves to make this more tolerable, just a different version of act as if.
I am sure you being strong and sounding detached to him is helping, you are in no hurry, so best to wait and watch how it all unfolds.
Hugs - arshi
Hi LoneWlf, yes I guess that's human nature and it's hard to accept that there are things we just can't know. On the other hand, this phenomenon seems to happen often enough, with the same patterns, across the population that you'd think by now there'd be some studies or a more scientific explanations that could help us understand not just what's happening in the moment but what's likely to happen in the future. I think these do exist but still have limited applications because human relationships vary so much. I don't think I could ever be a psychologist. I'd go crazy! I'm glad your faith is helping you to survive this journey. I have doubts about my own faith but I'm still trying to accept there's a greater plan that doesn't take into account what I want or thought I had.
Arsh, I'll soon be working full-time so I need to learn how working moms find time to register at the library and go there alone to search books! There must be a way, but I'll have to figure out what that is. Whenever I take my daughter to the adult section of the library it doesn't last longer than 30 seconds before she gets too noisy. I found that a lot of books are available for a low price on Kindle or you can order a bunch of them used for cheap and just pay for shipping, but again, how do full-time moms find time to read those books!? Especially if there's no father in the picture to help out? I have to start adapting my life! I hope your journey towards being a single mom will go smoothly and you'll also find a way to adapt according to the new routine. That's also good you're rationalizing what's happening to yourself to get through it. Sometimes we have to tell ourselves anything just to survive because otherwise we'd fall apart.
Many libraries will let you "check out" digital copies of books for your kindle, and I believe you can do that online.
Hey Nicole, there's an app called Hoopla and if you have a library card you can check out E-books and audiobooks through that. Some libraries offer this as well.
The audiobook might solve a problem for you. I've been listening to a ton of Neil Sattin podcasts on Spotify lately. He even has had MWD on a couple times which is awesome!
Ovrrnbow, yes totally. I wonder what percentage of all our posts on this forum are written about trying to understand things we can never understand. How much time do we waste, including myself? I've been so bad at that. You seem like you're making great progress on your journey!
I have spent SOOOO much time trying to understand things I will never understand. I like to think I'm so much smarter now, but maybe I'm only a little smarter. Still a work in progress!
It seems like sometimes yes and sometimes no as far as progression on my sitch. But as I progress, I tire of the games of the WS, tire of living like this, the ups and downs.
KML, I will definitely check that in the near future. If I end up commuting on public transportation then I'm thinking that's when I'll have time to read electronic books.
Ovrrnbow, I'll check Hoopla as well. Thanks. A lot of books are free on Kindle through Amazon prime but it's good to know there's another easy option. I'll check out the Neil Sattin podcasts.
Overnnbow, in your case the ups and downs with your wife have been wild. She's going to burn out at some point. You've been through a lot. Your story is one of the more extreme that I've read here.
Full time job and managing little ones is so hard Nicole but well that’s what we are dealt with right? I also believe it will not only make us strong but it will show the children what a champ her mom is. And that she can take on the world to provide the best for them. Your D will see the winner you are
Arsh, thanks. I hope so. I'm meeting with my employer in two days to hammer out a deal. I'm going to ask to work 8:30 AM - 2:30 PM and then 9:00 PM - 11:00 PM. I hope they'll agree. This would allow me to pick up my daughter at 3:00 PM and care for her myself until she goes to bed and then still work eight hours per day. I also suggested a temporary three or six month contract but I don't know if they'll agree - if it turns out that I'm losing money by working full time because I need to hire more help then I hope to return to being a consultant. All of this would be a lot easier with a husband who shares custody and helps out but that's not an option so I'll strive do everything alone. I know I won't be the first or last to do this and neither will you. It's unfortunately common I'm sure for single moms to also be breadwinners but I just don't know any women in real life who are doing that except for maybe some of the cleaning ladies I've had in the past but even they had their moms watching their kids while they work. These kids deserve the best life possible. I hope the hardships we're all experiencing on this forum are temporary and things will improve for us all.
Hoping the best for you Nicole. Sending you strenght.
(Hey girl, what about getting lawyer advice?...)
Thank you Neffer! I saw a lawyer before I moved. The lawyer confirmed the level of financial support my husband would be expected to give based on the length of our marriage, his income, me having sole custody, etc.. He was paying the equivalent and continued to do so until he lost his job. At the moment I need to conserve money and the first lawyer consultation wasn't that helpful but if my husband continues to be unemployed much longer and I can't pay the bills on my own, even with a full-time job, then I'll definitely go to a new lawyer for additional advice. I wish they didn't charge hundreds of dollars for a consultation though. It would be great to hear your updates if you could post sometime on your thread.
Hi Everyone, I wish to post more on others' threads but I want to write an update on my end. This week I received an offer from one of my employers for a full-time position and I sat down with them to negotiate it. I wish to write more about that sometime because there were so many parallels between how that conversation went and how I envision the conversation with my husband would or should go if he were ever to try to reconcile.
Yesterday my husband arrived in our city to visit. When he reached our place he brought some old pictures and documents he found that had special meaning and he took them out right away and showed them to our daughter and I. He also purchased something for our apartment that he immediately went to install. Then he played with our daughter for a while, updated me on his job search, and got ready to leave to go to his family's house. As he was leaving he stopped for a few seconds near me to say something like "thanks for everything...bye...bye" and I tried to say goodbye quietly but I couldn't turn to look at him or smile at that moment because I still have a hard time accepting how he can stop by for a visit and then go to his 'real' family whereas we used to be his family.
Today my husband came and I left to go meet a group of old colleagues. When I returned he asked about my schedule tomorrow and said he and his brother were trying to see if we can meet halfway (between two states) to see his brother and brother's family. I asked if my husband was planning to take our daughter and he said no, everyone wants you to come. I said, "really? That's unexpected because your brother's wife stopped communicating after we separated so I thought they didn't want to stay in touch." My husband said no, she's just been busy, they want to see you, etc.."
Then my husband was complaining how it took him two hours to reach us today and I responded that it's his choice to stay so far away and come back-and-forth. His response was "I need to spend time with my mother. She's going to die soon. She doesn't even know who I am anymore." This is actually true, but I know my husband stays there because of our marriage situation, not because of his mom. Clearly his staying there is a sign that he doesn't want to reconcile but then he wanted me to visit his family's house a few weeks ago and he wants me to join them tomorrow.
Later after my husband left today I was giving our daughter a bath and she said something about how she told her father that she might have a second father someday. A few times earlier this year when my daughter was struggling to understand why her father stopped coming to see her and kept asking if he was coming back I'd say that I really hope he'll come back and spend time with her again. I'd say that I love him and hope we can continue to be a family someday. I've also said a few times that if he doesn't come back I hope to someday find another man who could be like her second father who will fill that role (meaning I hope to get re-married someday or at least find a male role model for her). That was probably wrong of me to say, but this was back when my husband was in the midst of his new relationship with the 26 year old nurse and wanted an immediate divorce. I was trying to reassure our young child that there'll be a father figure in her life one way or another. Ever since then she's said from time-to-time things like "maybe I'll have a second dad someday..." Apparently today she said something like that to my husband and his response was "No! If you ever have a second father I'll push him away!" This statement he made confirms what I wrote in a previous post about how I believe my husband would try to come back if I were in another relationship. I don't even have plans to date, we're still married and even if we divorce I don't plan to date anyone any time soon, but if I were in a new relationship I think that would evoke a major response from my husband.
Those are a few examples of how things are going but I keep wondering if it'll keep being like this forever. The tension is generally gone. The communication is good. I've succeeded at practicing DB and the LRT again in recent months after not doing a good job of it when I was ill. I feel confident I've overcome some of my flaws (like making sarcastic comments, asking too many questions, being too obsessive about planning and cleaning, etc..). My career is going well now. Things are generally better but I still feel totally clueless about the status of my marriage.
Last year the psychologist who saw my husband and I in separate appointments said my husband will always choose the path of least resistance. Meaning my husband will do whatever is easiest to get what he wants. I imagine my husband is probably happy with our current arrangement - he has his freedom living separately but he can still see us when he wants. But the times he's been crying on the phone recently indicate he's not entirely happy. Sometimes it's just hard to stay patient not knowing what will happen. It'll soon be a year since my husband left a second time. That's a pretty long time. Perhaps our lives are too separate now to reconcile and too much damage has been done after my husband's second destructive chaotic phase but I still don't want to get divorced. I wonder sometimes if there's anything else I should do, or something I should see that I'm not seeing, but otherwise it seems like I could keep writing these updates every week for months and they'll stay the same. Sorry to bore everyone. Perhaps I'll stop writing about my situation until there's some kind of breakthrough.
Hmmm... Nic lives are never too separate to reconcile. Frankly, moving on and going about your business makes you more interesting and perhaps draws him closer (pulls) him to you.
I certainly would proceed with caution. His life is in complete turmoil - ie... no job. He in following the path of least resistance may come home for that soft place to land to figure things out. That in my opinion might seem tempting to you at first but once he is back on his feet I feel he may skedaddle again. Don't let him come home unless he has all his p's and q's lined up!!!!
But, what you are doing right is keeping your interactions positive!!!! Huge pats on the back for that. You are not grilling him... you are letting him come to you. Keep working on setting up some decent boundaries. Make sure he knows he needs to check in with you about when a good time to come is ---- don't give him the feeling that you drop everything and cater to his whims to show up. At the same time make sure you give plenty of access to your D. I know... that's a fine line isn't it?
Reconciliation can still happen Nic, though it will be along time off I feel. But, remember my story I share with you. You still have some forward motion to do... its so completely true what they say... they don't come back until you have moved on. Keep gathering your strength. Reconciliations happen when YOU get to a place that you don't hope for it anymore. Remember psysara... :-) You are doing fantastic... you have moved on from baby steps to gazelle strides!!!
You aren't going to meet with his family, are you? That's him cake eating. "Sorry Ihave plans since D will be with you. "
KitCat, thanks for your encouragement. I really appreciate it. My husband was here again today and watched our daughter while I went to another social event. The plans to visit his brother apparently fell through which was good. I don't know. My intuition tells me my husband no longer wants a divorce and wants to eventually fix things. Day-after-day there are many small subtle signs that things are headed in the right direction. There are at least five or six more things from today that signify we're on the path towards reconciling (but not there yet). That doesn't excuse anything that my husband has done and he may file for divorce tomorrow for all I know, but if he wants to reform himself and demonstrate change through actions over time then I could see us reconciling. Honestly speaking I'm not sure if I'll ever reach a point where I no longer wish to reconcile because he's the father of my child who used to be the greatest guy I ever met, but I no longer need him or rely on him. Moving here was my way of moving on. That marked the end for me. Next summer if I take our daughter to Europe we could potentially stay there for a long time so then we'll be even further away. I mentioned more distant plans to take our daughter to one of the Gulf countries someday where I can work tax-free and our daughter can go to a good international school and my husband said "we have to plan it then so I can come too...." I still have no idea what will happen but I do appreciate you sharing your opinion that you think reconciliation could be possible someday (under certain circumstances). I'll definitely share the outcome on this forum whenever we reach that point.
Steve, I wasn't sure. He didn't proceed with the plans to meet his family but I thought I read somewhere in the DB book that accepting family invitations is ok? I would have considered going because I didn't realize that could be cake eating but I did already have plans today. I went out to the event I had already planned to attend so it worked out ok. I'll have to be more careful about detecting cake eating....I tried really hard to stop it last fall but I may not be noticing it as much now. Thanks for that heads up.
Just keep the DB attitude N. All steps forward. Stay strong!
Lol your H said "we have to plan it so that I can come too"!!! What in the hell is that about? I'd have a hard time hiding my emotions on that one.
There are at least five or six more things from today that signify we're on the path towards reconciling ......
I no longer need him or rely on him......
and my husband said "we have to plan it then so I can come too...."
I thought I read somewhere in the DB book that accepting family invitations is ok?
Nicole, with regard to the quotes above.... I would strongly caution you against reading too much into his actions at this point. He seems to be all over the place, and I just wouldn't trust anything he said.
I'm glad to hear that you are realizing how strong and independent you are, and that you don't need him. This might even be part of the reason he's acting differently. Keep it up!
I'm bewildered by his comment, though. It kind of reminds me of my W. Don't they realize we're separated, and getting divorced, because that's what THEY want?
As far as accepting family invitations, and invitations in general, I try to do what I want to do. If the event sounds pleasant, and I want to go, I go. If I don't want to go, I don't. But I don't go because WAW would like me there. Maybe I'm a hypocrite, or just bad at DBing, but when I'm there, I am aware that I should make the interaction between us pleasant.
Neffer, yes, I'll keep going. Thanks. It's hard when it's more of the same without any timeline for this to end but none of the alternatives are great either.
Ovrrnbw, I think what my husband meant is he wants to be close to our daughter and he doesn't want me to plan things without him. I obviously wouldn't take her out-of-the-country without his permission but that doesn't mean I want him to come if we're not together. I have no idea what he's thinking internally...maybe he's thinking we'll be a family again by then, or maybe he's just thinking he'd live nearby and visit our daughter even overseas.
Jim, that's right. He can't be trusted. Even if we try to reconcile someday I'll always be aware that he's capable of this behavior. I don't know what to think of his actions. I don't think one's intuition is a reliable indicator as to what's happening. I'm glad things are better but better doesn't mean fixed. This has been going on for so long now. It's three years now since my husband had his first known affair. Even now I don't want to get divorced, so we remain separated, but this causes its own psychological torture. It's kind of back to seeing all options as being bad - divorce is bad, separation is bad, and reconciliation is so hard and risky that's it's not a great choice either. Prevention would have been best. I wish we'd all have had the right skills to see what was coming and act before it's too late. For some of us counseling or just changing our own behavior may have worked. For others that still wouldn't have worked and we would have divorced a long time ago and have moved on by now. I guess all we can do is try to make the right decisions moving forward.
I know it´s hard N. Really hard. Stick to DB with PMA. You are doing great.
Thanks Neffer. It'd be great to hear your updates too.
There´s not much to tell N. Just walking forward with W and S. My demons are aging as time goes by...Thanks for asking.
This statement he made confirms what I wrote in a previous post about how I believe my husband would try to come back if I were in another relationship. I don't even have plans to date, we're still married and even if we divorce I don't plan to date anyone any time soon, but if I were in a new relationship I think that would evoke a major response from my husband.
So you know my opinion is that you shouldn't reconcile with a guy who says he wishes his daughter had never been born. BUT - given that you still hope to reconcile - there is a way to test your theory above without actually dating.
Be mysterious. Be busy. Dress up nice when you do go out even if it's only to go to the library - when he sees you leaving the house while he's with your daughter he should WONDER about where you are.
I'm not saying to date, and don't do anything he could hold over your head later. But it's ok to let him IMAGINE you might be out somewhere where you might meet a man.
When my ex had his affair, I was DBing him and I remember one night I went out dancing with my best girlfriend. (As I recall it, I'm not sure we even ended up going dancing, but if we did, I certainly didn't meet any men.) But I do believe that played a role in our reconciliation at that time - like it hadn't occurred to him earlier that what was sauce for the gander could be sauce for the goose as well. He was cheating but hadn't thought through all the ramifications that I could just as easily go out and get a man. Sometimes just teasing the POSSIBILITY that you might find someone new is enough to snap them back into sanity. So don't do anything that isn't explainable later with a perfectly benign explanation, but feel free to leave little clues. Sexy new lingerie hanging to dry in the bathroom. Fresh flowers in the apartment which, if he asks, came from a "friend; nobody you know".
And yes, be busy if he invites you to another family get together. Let him feel the reality of what divorce will be like. Kinder to let him feel all of this now - while there's still a possibility of reconciliation - rather than later once you've already moved on with a new man.
And I don't think it's bad your daughter saying that to him - he needs to know that THIS IS THE REALITY when you leave your wife and child - a new man may become your child's stepfather. That's one of the consequences of his behavior.
Nicole, he wants to R when he feels he is replaced? what happens when he is back and establishes his territory again and then gets bored? Like most other WASs he needs to show true remorse for you to even reconsider. I wouldnt attend any family event with him, I think you are great keeping the distance.
I like KML's suggestions, be mysterious, give him a taste of what he may miss, forever. But also be unattainable until you see true remorse. Hugs. - arshi
This statement he made confirms what I wrote in a previous post about how I believe my husband would try to come back if I were in another relationship. I don't even have plans to date, we're still married and even if we divorce I don't plan to date anyone any time soon, but if I were in a new relationship I think that would evoke a major response from my husband.
Well I'm a true believer that things get said in the heat of the moment that may not truly reflect how life is. Nic look at his actions long term versus what he says in anger. Are his actions of a man that deeply regrets his D's life?
We all have that moment in time where we think about where life would have taken us if we had turned left instead of right... we are all allowed to have those thoughts on occasion but if obsessive about such things that is when we need a life assessment.
My ex's initial gut reaction was to insist I abort our surprise child. That wasn't a choice I was willing to make for myself but I am pro choice. Of course he was angry. 17yr later we co-parent this soon to be adult. I will NEVER let my son know his father said this EVER. Moments of fear and panic over the biggest thing in your life shouldn't follow you around forever - instead I let the last 17yr speak for itself.
Certainly at some point in time speak with your H over the hurt this statement caused but don't forever judge him by it - look at his actions over time.
Peace.
At the same time, the fact that he had that thought, or even that he was able to verbalize that, is problematic. Nicole, I am sure you would make MC a stipulation of R. This is one of the things that has to be worked out with the help of a good counselor. Otherwise you will wonder for the rest of your life if he really meant it or not.
Hi Everyone, I'll respond to your responses and then I want to write about something that's not related to my husband and I'd appreciate your feedback so stay tuned.
KML, I really like what you wrote. I truly believe that's the right thing to do. I kind of did it last weekend. I normally dress conservatively but I wore a really short dress and left for five hours and my husband didn't know where I was going. I'll try to flowers and lingerie and will let you know what happens. Your story about what you did with your ex is great by the way! I love your thinking.
Arsh, this is one area where I actually have some perspective. Coming back doesn't equal reconciling. I think my husband would come back if I were dating someone else but that doesn't mean the marriage would be fixed. He could very well leave again when he's bored if he doesn't come back for the right reasons. And I wouldn't let him come back like that, especially because if I ever truly was dating someone that would mean it would be really serious because I doubt casual dating will ever be for me.
KitKat, I'm so sorry to hear your ex said something like that about your son. My husband didn't mean what he said literally. What he meant was "I found this sexy 26 year old nurse and I'm taking her to Dubai next week but I can't enjoy myself as much as I wish because I have to divorce you and this beautiful child is a big barrier to my freedom." I've come to believe the relationship with that nurse didn't work out so my husband has been thinking more rationally in recent months. He calls our daughter every day now and while he's probably a fraction of what a real father should be, he's made the effort to talk to her every day so I don't think he meant what he said. It's still terrible though.
Steve, yes it's inexcusable that he said or thought anything bad about our daughter, especially when it was due to him dating some other woman who appeared to be not a high-quality woman based on the over abundance of bikini-on-the-beach-holding-a-beer-acting-drunk and bar photos on her social media. It's hard to imagine how doing that day-after-day-after-day is an interesting lifestyle. So I doubt she was a woman who was worth wishing his daughter hadn't been born. If we ever got to the point of reconciling counseling would have to play a big role in the process. Namely my husband needs to get his ADHD treated and find out if he has bi-polar. For MC we'd need someone who really has experience with the reconciliation process because I don't think all MC's do.
My husband left on Monday. He was really stressed when he came on Monday and left kind of in-a-rush but just as he closed the door to leave my daughter said "Mom are you happy?" I asked why. She said "because daddy is taking us both to a hotel." He never mentioned that to me, but apparently he told her that afternoon he's planning to take us to a hotel sometime in the near future. We'll see if that invitation ever comes to fruition.
So now I'd like to write about something else. I've mentioned here that I don't have much experience with men or dating. Just one long-term long-distance boyfriend for eight years before I met my husband and that's it. And a male best-friend who has shared a lot of insights over the years. Now being semi-single I really have no idea how to distinguish between friendly and interested on a slightly deeper level. For example before I left my old state my gastroenterologist came running after me in the parking lot shouting my name and it really scared me. He caught up to me and said he just wanted to show me a picture of his daughters. Was that just friendly? I have no idea but it was odd.
Last Friday I was on a conference call for work. My firm is partnering with a firm based in the UK on a project. One of the guys on the call mentioned he's from my favorite country in Europe. After the call I sent the guy an e-mail saying I was happy to hear he's from that country and I mentioned the time I've spent there over the past 20 years and how it's always a good opportunity to meet people from that country (a small country). He responded asking me more about my time in his country and I could see that he checked my LinkedIn profile but then he didn't respond to my e-mail again. We've been in touch about work though. This evening I saw a missed call from a UK country code. Then I got a text message from this guy saying he's going to bed soon but he wanted to talk about something we were co-writing. He called me and we talked about it and he asked for my Skype ID so he could show me something from his screen. Then my daughter started crying and interrupting. Towards the end I told him not to stay up any later working on this thing, that it wasn't that urgent. He said, "no you have your daughter and I'm single sitting here in a hotel." He was asked about my daughter and tried to say hi to her. Then he said he's flying back to the UK tomorrow and he can talk right when he lands or any time tomorrow night. After the call I wrote him something in his native language and he responded in his native language. I tried to look him up on line a few days ago to see his picture and it was there on his linkedin. I wanted to view it again tonight and it's gone. Anyway, I felt like this guy was looking for a reason to call me but was he? I have no sense when it comes to these things. It seems he'll call again tomorrow and it's kind of my dream to meet a single guy from that country but I don't want to get carried away. I'm not planning to date him or pursue a relationship but I guess in a fantasy-sense it's nice to imagine someone from that country would consider me at this stage in life. I'd appreciate any input. Thanks!
Nicole, I think you're a catch, and he's interested. Why wouldn't he be?
Don't get your hopes too high, though. At this point, anything could happen. But do take it as an indication of what your future could be like, with men actually interested in you, and pursuing you.
Your husband is still all over the place, but you're doing a great job of staying grounded and being strong. I think you are seeing things fairly clearly and this is great.
This male colleague is definitely interested. Hear him out, but I doubt it's going anywhere (b/c it's work, you're DB'ing and still married - not b/c it couldn't). Either way, it will be good for you to just see what's out there and feel wanted.
Jim and Overrnbw, thanks for your responses. What makes you think he's interested? I just can't tell if I'm imagining that he was looking for a reason to call or if he's just a motivated colleague who wants to tackle work. The only part that seemed more explicit was when he pointed out that he's single...either he was saying it to be nice so I didn't feel bad about him doing more work or he wanted to let me know he's single. Anyway he just called me a while ago from the airport but we just talked about work and he said he'll call again later when he lands. Regardless of his intentions our project will end tomorrow so we won't be in touch after that unless he reaches out. I'm planning to go to his native country next summer so I may at that time ask if he's around and meet him if I'm single by then. Otherwise I'm so lost when I think about being single. The thought of meeting a guy like this one is appealing though. Not practical, but perhaps it's the first instance since my husband left that I could even imagine ever considering anyone else.
I agree with ovr, Nicole. Just chat with him to see how things go, make sure he knows your sitch so expectations are realistic. Wouldnt hurt to have a friend right?
Oh I forgot to add that I guess the situation I describe above was skewed because I reached out first so this guy probably thought I was interested. Such complicated dynamics for such limited interactions!
Arsh, I got the distinct feeling this would not be a friend but something more, but it's probably all in my head. There's something about the enthusiasm this guy had for calling me late at night (his time in Europe) that was just different. Anyway by tomorrow I'll probably forget about it and it doesn't really matter except it's such a foreign experience to think that any other man would be interested.
Arsh, I got the distinct feeling this would not be a friend but something more, but it's probably all in my head. There's something about the enthusiasm this guy had for calling me late at night (his time in Europe) that was just different. Anyway by tomorrow I'll probably forget about it and it doesn't really matter except it's such a foreign experience to think that any other man would be interested.
Let me let you in on a little secret. All guys that are "friends" with a woman, are enthusiastic for more. Unless they are gay of course. But short of that, he is just waiting and hoping that it will eventually turn into more.
Steve, I'm just about to go offline but saw your message. My closest friend for over 20 years is a non-gay man and I really never thought he's enthusiastic for more. No boundaries have ever been crossed but I guess the friendship works because we both trust we'd never cross those boundaries. Anyway I do get the sense when you first meet a new man who shows extra enthusiasm that it's not a sign of mere friendship. I knew pretty fast that my husband and I had something special. I wish though I'd be smarter and better at reading signs to avoid getting into another bad situation in the future. That's why I want to start learning these things now. Thanks for your input.
Steve, I'm just about to go offline but saw your message. My closest friend for over 20 years is a non-gay man and I really never thought he's enthusiastic for more. No boundaries have ever been crossed but I guess the friendship works because we both trust we'd never cross those boundaries. Anyway I do get the sense when you first meet a new man who shows extra enthusiasm that it's not a sign of mere friendship. I knew pretty fast that my husband and I had something special. I wish though I'd be smarter and better at reading signs to avoid getting into another bad situation in the future. That's why I want to start learning these things now. Thanks for your input.
Nicole, yep exceptions to every rule. But my guess is that unless your friend of 20 years is very moral, and/or married, if you called him right now and told him to come over you wanted to sleep with him, he'd be open to the idea.
I'm glad you're at least thinking of future possibilities.
As for men friends vs interested - I've learned it's best to assume they might be interested. Not that they always will be, but if you assume they're always just friends you're going to get some (potentially unwelcome) surprises !!
he pointed out that he's single...either he was saying it to be nice so I didn't feel bad about him doing more work or he wanted to let me know he's single. Anyway he just called me a while ago from the airport but we just talked about work and he said he'll call again later when he lands. Regardless of his intentions our project will end tomorrow so we won't be in touch after that unless he reaches out.
Nicole, he didn't just point out he was single so you wouldn't feel bad about him doing more work. He's interested. Just remember, he is an ocean away.....
Also, Steve is right, most men don't want to "just be friends".
Hi N! Just reading your updates...
No need for more words.
Steve, I don't plan on ever finding out if my male friend would take me up on that offer and don't really want to think about it but it's good to know that's how men think.
KML, I haven't been single for most of the past 20 years so usually telling any guy I had a boyfriend or was married erased any possibility of ever being surprised with any gestures but I guess that could start to happen as I spend more time single.
Jim, I see the logic now. Being an ocean away isn't an issue but I doubt we'll be in touch again unless we travel to each other's cities and meet in person. I did send him a funny picture related to our project and he said "Excellent! I hope we'll all go there together someday." So not exactly an expression of interest when one says "we'll all go together" but we are part of a bigger team. When we talked yesterday there was nothing earth shattering and this morning we're just working to complete our project. We're supposed to talk again later but as mentioned I don't think there's any momentum and I'm still married so I won't make any special effort to stay in touch. Still it's a reminder that I think I'd have a much better chance of meeting someone in the country where this guy is from than here in the US....I'm planning to spend a few months there next summer so I'll come back to the forum with updates then. I still can't imagine a future with any other man but I do aspire towards trying to be slightly less rigid in my thinking.
Neffer, well if these kind of updates were happening frequently it may make it easier to move on from my husband but this is more like a once-in-ten-years thing.
Just enjoy the feeling N... and keep moving.
(((N)))
Well the project with the guy I wrote about ended. He called yesterday just as I was getting ready to submit our paper and said he was going out but I could call him on WhatsApp if I needed anything. He said he hopes to talk again soon. I doubt we'll be in touch though until we work together again or are in each other's countries.
My husband also called yesterday to say he's coming again this week for two days.
Otherwise now it's on to a normal weekend with my daughter and friends. I will write more on other people's threads hopefully tonight or tomorrow night!
Arsh, I got the distinct feeling this would not be a friend but something more, but it's probably all in my head. There's something about the enthusiasm this guy had for calling me late at night (his time in Europe) that was just different. Anyway by tomorrow I'll probably forget about it and it doesn't really matter except it's such a foreign experience to think that any other man would be interested.
Let me let you in on a little secret. All guys that are "friends" with a woman, are enthusiastic for more. Unless they are gay of course. But short of that, he is just waiting and hoping that it will eventually turn into more.
This is true, I don't care what anyone says to the contrary.
Nicole,
He's interested bc he's engaging you in convo that just isn't necessary, his body language/tone.
I can just tell. Enjoy it, it's a good feeling.
Hi Nic,
been a while - after catching up on your sitch I agree with everyone that this guy is interested. My suggestion would be if it happens to materialize into anything - take on the friendship first then if it blossoms into something more proceed with caution . Hope you are well.
Ovrrnbw and LoneWlf, thanks for your responses. It's helpful to hear your recommendations and to understand how men think.
On Friday the project with that guy ended as I wrote and by Saturday I kind of forgot about him per say, although the brief encounter did affect me in many ways.
I'll quickly say however that yesterday morning he did e-mail me about something related to work. It was a legitimate work issue but he cut out everyone else and the issue was more relevant to the president of my company. I don't know if that means anything, but we continue to be in touch, e-mailing back-and-forth. It seems we'll work together more because today his colleague e-mailed us to say he'll (the colleague not the guy I wrote about) be in our city in two weeks and would like to meet to discuss more partnerships.
I don't think anything will happen with this guy though because I think I found his facebook profile and he's likely 5 - 7 years younger than I am. He's single with no kids and even if I get divorced I still have a kid. That would not be a practical situation because I'm not having any more kids and he'll probably want some. There's a difference between what's practical and what is just fun at the moment. If I were to ever get in another relationship it would have to be both practical and there would have be that deeper connection.
Communicating with this guy did bring back many memories from my time in his native country going back 20 years. I felt a lot of sadness the past few days about getting so old and choosing a more conservative path in life. I can see how some of these walkaway spouses want to have fun and be free again although I'd never actually do what they've done. It's just hard when you remember having such a great time when you were so young and now being so old with kids and responsibilities.
A few months ago I found some handwritten letters from a French guy I met when I was studying in Europe. He and I wrote many long letters to one another but we never were in a relationship or made plans to meet again. He always signed them "the French Lover" which was pretty funny. Anyway I found those letters and looked him up on Facebook. He was easy to identify so I scanned and sent him the letters. He was so happy to read them. It was right before people started using e-mail. We really enjoyed remembering that time in our lives. He's married now with kids and invited my daughter and I to visit him and his family in the French country side. I'll definitely go when I'm in the area.
I don't want to bore everyone but perhaps some of you can relate. Especially if you went overseas when you were young and everything was so vibrant and exciting. I've since traveled so much that nothing is really too new anymore.
Anyway I've been trying to challenge myself with the belief I've had that there is no man in this world I could love other than my husband (and one guy who's not available and not an option). That's really how I've felt and probably one of the reasons why it feels like so much is at stake. Especially now turning 40 it's so depressing feeling like I wouldn't be anyone's first choice due to my age. It just seems like everyone man wants a woman in her 20's or early 30's. I'm sure there are men here who will say otherwise but it's still hard adapting to this new reality.
I thought initially that if my husband leaves and after ten years perhaps I'll try to find someone else from his culture but Middle Eastern men are a big risk for Western women. There are so many happy couples from their culture when they marry within their own culture but less examples of them marrying Westerners and staying together. I'm so integrated into that culture so it's hard to imagine a different life but when I met this European guy last week I felt surprised to feel such excitement for someone from that part of the world.
The point is for anyone that's reading is I guess I've constructed a lot of limitations around my belief system and I have a too narrow vision. I'm trying to re-think some of these beliefs although it's not easy to change them. Could I find a guy from that particular European country someday and be happy? Might the fact that men from that part of the world treat women as equals be a refreshing change? I don't know, but I'm trying to envision it. I wonder if anyone else here has successfully changed their own beliefs or assumptions as a result of their spouse leaving?
Another realization is that I have no plans to date or try to meet anyone new, but if it happens unexpectedly I could see myself falling out-of-love with my husband and moving on. In other words, right now I don't think I could want anyone else, or be a good partner to anyone else, because I'm still married and waiting to see how things turn out. Even then if I get divorced I may still feel no one can replace my husband. But this European guy is just so great aside from his age that I feel like I should be more open and honest about meeting new men without automatically writing them off. It's like a mental battle.
My mind flips the other direction and I feel like I can't change the conservative part of me and my religious beliefs to accommodate a liberal European guy who has no problem with sleeping together, moving in together, and being partners without marriage.
That's how it's been the past few days. These continuous thoughts are hard to stop. It's hard to live in-the-moment when the present is so unsettled and unclear. My husband is flying into our city again tonight for a job interview tomorrow and then he'll come to visit our daughter. I can say though that work is going well. I encourage everyone to pursue their dream career if they're not already in it. At least if your marriage fails you can pursue a different type of passion.
I just quickly skimmed what I wrote above and realize how many edits would be needed for it to make any sense! I wrote it super fast and sent it because I need to finish some other work but the basic point was how I'm trying to change my assumptions about finding a new partner in the future and wondering who else can relate. Sorry for the poorly written message!
I'm glad you're at least open to the idea of change. If your H doesn't come back, you have a lot to offer a new man. And YES, it's nice to be with a man that considers you an equal!!!!!!! It should ALWAYS be that way and it's a CORRUPTION of your religion if you're not being treated that way, because the Koran actually granted women property rights at a time when that was very progressive, didn't it?
The subjugation of women is contrary to the very essence of religion and spirituality. It's a perversion of religion when it is used to justify such treatment of women, or to justify war or slavery etc.
Thanks KML. I'm still struggling to believe I have a lot to offer. I do in many ways but don't in others. It's hard to get past the rejection from my husband that I wasn't good enough because I wasn't 10 years younger and an exact Victoria's Secret model replicate. It makes me think that's what every guy wants and anything else wouldn't be their first choice, but I hope that's wrong in some way and there are men who are less superficial who I would find attractive too.
You know I never would have guessed that my husband wouldn't treat me like an equal because he did for over seven years. In many ways I was more powerful because I was the primary income earner and he came to my native country where he was at a disadvantage. But when we had our daughter suddenly everything related to children was a woman's job, men are free to do what they want, and a double standard emerged. I'm sure I'd be happy to meet someone who doesn't have that double standard. It seems less about Islam and more about culture, but Islam can be twisted in many ways to legitimize bad behaviors. Yes Islam granted women many rights although there are also many parts of the Quran that are hard for a Western woman to accept. The response I normally get is "it's the translation that's bad" but that's not it. For example a man being allowed to beat his wife lightly - is a woman allowed to do that to her husband? The Quran outlines a fairly clear set of rules for men and women that are different but that's a whole other conversation. Since my husband declared himself an Atheist it's more just bad culture and him choosing to be a bad person.
I sat with neighbors from a country next to my husband's country the other night. They're younger and married with a daughter the same age as mine. They said what's happening with my husband isn't uncommon. They've seen it with a few of their friends. They said they themselves almost divorced five or six times because the husband cheated (and I liked when his wife said that he looked at me, smiled, and raised his eyebrows). We didn't get to talk long enough for me to ask what ended up happening with the other men they saw like my husband but I look forward to asking sometime soon.
Hi everyone, I apologize for the long rambling message yesterday. I'm still struggling with a lot of thoughts about how I'd move on without my husband. I wasn't looking for any particular response aside from wondering if anyone else wonders those things but today I would appreciate a response on today's events.
My husband came to town for a job interview today. Afterwards he drove to our place for a brief visit before going to stay with his family. Our daughter was playing with him in the other room when she asked if he could come back to live with us. He said "I'm trying to find a job to be closer to you." So in other words, no, he's not coming back.
On Saturday night my daughter didn't want to talk when my husband called and when I dialed him back a while later for her to talk to him, he was clearly out and didn't want to talk. He sounded annoyed and said he'd call the next day. That made me think he was probably on a date.
Then today his phone rang and he put it on speaker phone and it was a woman. He said he's visiting <said our daughter's name> and he'll call back after he leaves in ten minutes. He spoke in English so that makes me think there's a new woman or perhaps the same one from January.
Then as my husband was getting ready to leave he did the thing that I really hate - he started trying to talk and ask questions. He was asking about my job, our trip next week across-the-country, and other stuff. He said he may not come back for a few weeks now because he found some temporary work in his area (or because he met another woman probably). I couldn't look at him or act happy or carefree. I responded with simple words like "sure" and "great" but that's the best I could do.
Then after my husband left my daughter started crying. She said she misses her father so much. I called him for her to talk to him as he drives to his family's house. He said he'll stop by again tomorrow on his way to the airport. Then he called back three more times to talk to our daughter but I really don't know how he can think that's sufficient.
I think my husband was considering reconciling but likely met another woman in the past few weeks. This, along with him losing his job and still not really 'waking up' makes me think there's little hope.
I just feel so sad. Our poor innocent daughter was saying to her father " you have to come back and live with us. You have the same eyes as me. You have the same skin as me. We both have the same hair." He didn't say anything to reassure her. Then even when she was crying he didn't think to turn around and come back to see her longer.
I feel terrible to bring a beautiful child into this world with a father who doesn't care about them. I wish more than anything to give her what seemingly every other kid has - a family with a mom and dad living together. There are so few examples of other types of families around us.
I wish there was something more I could do to increase the chance of fixing things with my husband but I don't see any hope. He was so great before because he loved me. When he stopped loving me he stopped caring even 1%. Now other women get all his love and attention while my daughter and I struggle to rebuild our lives alone. I wish I could have more hope of meeting a great new guy to get a second chance.
Wow,
your H is such a turd. I think your are right to assume the worst. You can still have hope, just don't go making plan like it will ever get better just b/c you want it to.
The qualities you have will be desired by good men who are true and honest. I promise you that. Being physical attractive is great, but it's nothing without the kind heart and caring soul within. You have that in spades. You will be OK, no matter what happens.
Hey Nicole, you are a bright, clever girl. You have been raising your D on your own, giving her all the love she can get. Be proud of that! You are not plan B and you know that. It may take some time for your feet to get the walking out pace but you know it´s happening. You can resist or you can start easing your mind...
Sending you energy to help you ease your mind now... ;-)
(((N)))
Another one that makes me go to the microscope. I´m tired of myself...
Hi Nic,
I feel so bad for your daughter right now -my heart breaks. I get so angry at these WAS for breaking up the family unit only looking out for their own happiness-I wish that they could feel the pain anguish they put others thru. Know I still pray for you and your family. Blessings!
Nicole, keep doing what you're doing, and take care of your D and yourself. You seemed to think things were looking like he wanted to reconcile, but then he met another woman and got temporary work. You can't control whether H comes back, but it looks like he probably isn't. I think, like me, you are still remembering mostly the good times, and not the bad qualities and it makes it hard for you to move on. When I start pining, I've tried to consciously remember the disrespect, and bad times, and I think it's helping.
Also, it seems to me that you are thinking too much about your future, and trying to make plans and decisions where none are possible. What I mean is, for example, this guy you are working with who seems interested..... you are making all sorts of excuses why it won't work ("he's too young", "he'll want kids", ....). Just enjoy his attention, take some chances and see where it goes. Not just with him, but with other men, and life in general.
This kind of ties in to you imposing a lot of limitations on yourself. You are questioning this, and I think that's a good thing.
I don't really know what I'm trying to say, but stop being so hard on yourself, and thinking you have to have it all planned out.
Thanks everyone. I appreciate your encouragement. My husband is now out with our daughter for an hour before he goes to the airport.
Ovrrnbw, I believe you but I don't know how to meet those kind of men being 40 with a child. I have to learn to deal with the feeling of being alone better. I still think my husband might come back someday but not right now. There are clearly too many advantages with our current arrangement where he doesn't have to have any responsibilities and can have as much fun as he wants. I guess it's just like your wife having your financial support and keeping you on standby while she dates that other guy.
Neffer, thanks. I don't want to be Plan B but my struggle is that none of the options sound good. I'm trying hard for my daughter to make-up for the deficit but nothing can fix what my husband has done. I don't know how to ease my mind. I'm trying everything from the DB book, allowing time to pass, keeping things open-ended in case my husband wants to turn himself around....nothing really helps though on days like yesterday when I see my child suffering. It's so unfair. I really was a good wife and I'm not that bad looking and our daughter is just beautiful. I've worked really really hard to overcome my faults and weaknesses in the past year. I can't believe my daughter and I are worth nothing. What does this make you think about yourself and your own situation?
LoneWlf, thanks so much. I know you understand based on everything I read on your thread. I'll pray for your family too. I get frustrated with a God who allows this to happen to children but there's a lot beyond our comprehension.
Jim, you're right and I'm thinking too much in general. I'm trying to get past the limitations I created and to be more positive but there are setbacks like this. Things are still better now than before, especially with my husband being nice again, but I see so many people move on quickly after their spouse leaves and I don't know how that happens. Like they date a few people, find one they like, and they're in a relationship again. I guess something is wrong with me for not seeing that as possible in my case but again I'll try to be more positive, think less, and take more risks.
Nic- I met my H at 40yr old as a single parent. Do not feel you are cut out from the dating pool!!!!
Yes, you are out of practice when it comes to dating so once you do put yourself out there it will feel awkward and wierd. Don't think you will find Prince Charming the first time out of the gate... :-) Look at each new date for a potential great story and put yourself out and go on a date even if you don't think you would ever find yourself looking twice at them. (My H is someone I would have never pursued... good thing I was left with an extra concert ticket and not a single one of my friends could go out that night... LOL)
But, you are not quite ready to date... but you are thinking about the possibility and that's great.
You are enough for your D. Overtime your D will learn what to expect from her dad/and not to expect. She will learn which parent she needs to count on for what things.
As I said before.... Your H knows you are waiting... he needs to see that his time is limited. You start getting a life and going out he will notice.
Hi KitCat, that's good to know you were successful with finding someone again at 40!
There's probably no way I'd ever go on dates with random guys that I meet online and I don't go to bars (more limitations that I create but these are two things I don't think I can change), but if I meet someone at work or at a social event and there's a true connection I'd meet them one-on-one. There have only been six guys in my whole life I would have considered so I guess I'm just a total outlier and dating isn't for me but I'm not shy if I do like someone. I think all five except for my husband I approached and asked for their names, numbers, etc.. That's why it's so hard to imagine how I'll ever meet someone again but it'll have to happen instantaneously, in-person, and by chance.
I hope I can be enough for my daughter. I'm giving her all that I can. I just wish so badly to give her a better dad. It's good to know you can relate and you made it past this stage with your own kids.
I'm not good at recognizing a lot of things so if you read this could you kindly clarify how you know my H knows I'm waiting? I just don't know what else I can do because even if I started partying and acting wild he wouldn't know because he's far far away. I'll try the flowers and lingerie thing that KML mentioned next time he's here - making him see some signs that I've got stuff happening even though I don't. I do like the guy I met through work last week though. If only he were older I'd definitely consider him. I wish I could meet someone just like that who'd be a better fit. Then I'd probably see divorce in a more positive light whereas right now it's like the end-of-the-world. That's why I'm trying to challenge myself to stop thinking that I'll be alone, there's no one else other than my husband, etc... but I just have to keep trying to think more openly I guess.
Hi N, why are you always pushing me to think? It´s so easy to give advice to others...(thank you for asking...)
I remember lying on OW´s bed and thinking what am I doing here...this is not my place...who´s gonna take care of my W and S...we had a project of growing together and aging together...I had to relearn to fall asleep...
I knew then that my search for freedom was aiming for the wrong road. I was doing selfish acts and living on the OW´s unicorn valleys. Everybody on the game was moving the chess pieces. I had to stand aside and mend my mind. So here I am...
We all have our inner road. Some people have it paved and lighted. Some of us have to wield a machete to clear the way through. Facing our fears to know ourselves just to move forward in a healthy way...not an easy thing to do for many of us.
I think love should be the common denominator in all our movements. To love ourselves so we can love others.
So keep walking your road N. Take your time, no anxieties. GAL. Enjoy your D. She is walking with you.
Back to the microscope...
Nicole,
I hear you. We are the same age, even if we are in different sitchs, and one of my triggering thoughts is that I am going to go through life alone, never find anyone else. I think it is important to face that fear head-on, to sit with it, to examine it. Why does that scare me? Ultimately doesn't it come from a sense that I am not enough, that I can't validate myself and need external validation. It also has to do with taking responsibility for my own life and my own happiness, for taking the steps and putting in place the practices that make my life fulfilling. That's why this time alone, this "limbo" time, is so important. It gives me a chance to do that work on myself and conquer that fear.
In terms of dating you seem to be putting up lots of barriers (no bars, no internet, a great guy but too young). Is that because you aren't ready? Or are they really core values that you don't want to compromise because they reflect who you really are? There are millions of single men out there, some of whom are actually good guys but opening up yourself to the experience and putting yourself out there is necessary.
Neffer, I'm glad you chose to come back to your wife and child. It must have been hard living between those two worlds, not being able to fully enjoy one or the other. It must be even harder when it goes on for an extended time and you build attachments to the OW but still have those attachments to your wife. It seems you've been through a lot but going back to your family really is a wise choice for so many reasons but I'm sure you still have a lot on your mind.
Davide, it's based on core values and just lack of interest in casual dating. I think I need to go to a therapist for these issues. It's good that you see your alone time as an opportunity to conquer your fears. I hope we all end up in a better place sooner than later!
You are right N. My mind plays games with me. I fight back.
Nicole - I don't think that there's anything wrong in not wanting to do online dating and going to bars etc to meet up people and find dates that way. However, there's tons of other ways to meet people and socialize. Meet up groups, parent groups, hobby groups etc. But, I would definitely talk to a therapist about everything because I feel that your reticence to do this is probably based on fear of the unknown and getting rejected. I maybe off-base here, but I was told by 2 people when I said I wasn't interested in dating right now and they both came back to me about the issue of fear. I hadn't considered it and they were right. That was definitely a major reason aside from others that is holding me back from dating.
If you don't want to do casual dating until you're D, that's totally understandable. That's my position right now because I don't think it's fair for the other person when I am not 100% committed to being open and exploring casual dating or a relationship. But figure out what is going on emotionally for you and then see where it leads you.
I would say at a minimum try and expanding your social circle and focus on socializing and meeting people without any agenda. That's my goal this year to just be more social and explore friendships. Take it a bit at a time.
I'm not good at recognizing a lot of things so if you read this could you kindly clarify how you know my H knows I'm waiting? I just don't know what else I can do because even if I started partying and acting wild he wouldn't know because he's far far away. I'll try the flowers and lingerie thing that KML mentioned next time he's here - making him see some signs that I've got stuff happening even though I don't. I do like the guy I met through work last week though. If only he were older I'd definitely consider him. I wish I could meet someone just like that who'd be a better fit. Then I'd probably see divorce in a more positive light whereas right now it's like the end-of-the-world. That's why I'm trying to challenge myself to stop thinking that I'll be alone, there's no one else other than my husband, etc... but I just have to keep trying to think more openly I guess.
Trust me he knows...
Because when you suddenly have other things that are pulling at your heart and mind you will act, look and overall just be different. Right now your situation has all of your attention outside maintaing a job and your D.
You need to do your 180 girl!!!! You need to join a meet up group that is mixed with men and woman equally. You need to step outside your comfort zone and meet someone in a way you never thought you would. You do feel ready to date you need to go on lots of first dates (believe me this is how you learn so much about yourself!!!!) Accept that date that you might not have if it were the old you. You need to work on your interpersonal skills. Its been a long time since you dated and you need to brush up those skills so that when you do meet someone you think might click your not a rusty clunker but sleek Mercedes!
Its not easy to put yourself out there. I went on a lot of dates with people I didn't think I would have a true long term connection and I learned so much about myself in the process. Some of those guys turned into good friends, business connections, etc. Some of my first dates became hilarious stories. I've got the best first date stories!!! Now I did online dating but I was safe. I always met in a public place usually for a late lunch. I always drove myself - needed my own get away car! Late lunches accommodate a drink with dinner and if it was going well we could extend the date to a movie or some other activity.
Now I met my H online. I accepted his request to chat because I was trying to be the opposite of who I was. The old me would have never given my H the time of day. We chatted off and on. He would try to nail down a date but the fact that we were both single parents it was hard (and honestly I wasn't jumping at the situation.) Now I ended up with an extra concert ticket... went through my ENTIRE friends list and no one could do a weekday concert so I broke down and asked him.... he called in sick to work that night to make it. Our first date has the best first date story ever!!!! Even then I wasn't sure I would do a second date but he was persistant... and now we are M.
So my point is - when it comes to dating... do try online but be safe about it. Do something the old Nic would never do. Trust me when you start these things you just have a different glow about it and others pick it up... including your H.
Now as to the pretending - like buying your own flowers, etc. Pretending can backfire. I would treat that water cautiously, I'm not sure how to put it in words but your H stills knows you are waiting on him... I still know you are waiting on him.
HUGS!
Nic, I know how uncertain life looks right now and I know everyone says it is better to make him a little jealous. And the truth is he needs to understand that life will go on for you without him and you can still be happy. Do it at your own pace though, with whatever makes you feel good. It should all be just to make you happy, to not change him or with any expectations of making him come running back. you know well by now that such a return is only short stayed
Hi Nic, everything ok? You haven't posted in a while. Hope all is well- Blessings!
I was thinking about you too Nicole, hope you and your D are well and busy enjoying the summer.
Hi Everyone,
Thanks LoneWlf and Arsh for checking in. My daughter and I got sick last week while she's been off school for summer break. Then yesterday we were supposed to fly to the West coast to visit friends and we cancelled because we're both still sick. Other than that there are no major updates. I really wanted to come here and post to others' threads but I've been exhausted. One of the worst things about being a single mom with no family to help out is when you get sick - there's just no one to offer relief. I can't ask my friends because no one else wants to get sick. They offer to bring food or medicine but what I really need is someone to care for my sick daughter so I can rest but most of my friends have kids and don't want their kids to get sick. It's just hard.
Anyway I'll respond to the previous messages:
Maika, I respect your decision to hold off on dating. That must be hard. You seem much more 'normal' than me so I'm sure you'd do great if you wanted to meet someone. In my case it's not fear of rejection but rather fear of how to handle men who think that dating equals a physical relationship which is how most see it. I'm just not into that sort of thing. I'm 40 with a little kid and I grew up super conservative among an Amish and Mennonite community. For me dating just doesn't have appeal because there's a reason why it's called dating and not just friends meeting for coffee. Dating seems to insinuate that you might end up going home together at the end-of-the-night, or if nothing happens on the first date then it might on the second or third. I know I'm the one who is out-of-place and not the other way around. That's why marrying a Middle Eastern man worked well for me - there's no dating in that culture. You get engaged and married if you like each other. Sadly that culture also promotes a lot of behaviors that are bad because it's so restrictive but for me it works. The other option might be dating a really fundamentalist Christian who is super conservative but that wouldn't really work either because someone like that wouldn't like me who married a Muslim and is so close to the Muslim faith. I'm definitely meeting new people every day though and as I've mentioned in previous posts I don't think my social life this active even in college.
KitKat, that's pretty amazing how you met your husband. I guess that proves you have to give someone a chance and take a risk and it might pay off in a big way. I read all of your advice and I agree that's the way to go in order to fall in love again and move on. The problem is the message I just wrote to Maika above - I just can't bring myself to get into dating. The stuff you talk about would be a major 180 because I've never done any of that, not even in high school, college, or in my 20's. I had one long-term boyfriend and then I met and married my husband. I don't know. It's just not who I am. It's not really something I'm interested in. I don't know if I can force myself to do something where I have so many doubts about how it aligns with my values. I can't imagine sleeping with men that I barely know, or having casual boyfriends and every few months or years we break up and I just meet someone else and do the same thing again. I know this is how our culture works and that's the norm but I'm an ultra conservative person to my own detriment I guess. I'm not sure this 180 is something I can really achieve, but I do work in a male-dominated industry and I live in a male-dominated area (surrounded by tech firms). I'm friendly and I talk to men everywhere, on the street, in the elevator, waiting in line....making jokes, laughing. I have no problems meeting people and no shortage of men who would probably be interested but it's going to take a lot of therapy and deep introspection to convince myself that dating is the right way to go. I wish if I get divorced I'd just meet someone suddenly and we'd go straight to getting engaged like I did with my husband, although as you can see that didn't work out so well because he took off. I definitely need to focus on these issues with a good counselor. Thanks for sharing your advice though. You present an excellent roadmap that would likely work if I could follow it.
For what it's worth, the guy who I met through work is still e-mailing me. It's about work related issues but he always cuts everyone else out of the emails and writes about really insignificant things. Since I canceled my trip I'll meet his colleague (and friend) who is in town on Monday so it seems this will keep going on but I don't see someone who's a lot younger with no kids as a good match so I lost the excitement about it.
My husband went on some job interviews and he's waiting to see if he gets any offers. I have no idea what's happening with him. He may be dating someone but he also wants to talk to me sometimes when he calls our daughter and he makes a special point to say goodbye to me when he hangs up. A month or two back I prepared him a one-time meal just to see what happens but I didn't offer it to him. I just left the food sitting off to the side and he found it and ate everything. I'm not planning to do it again because I don't want him to think he can come here and get his favorite meals and a warm welcome and then go back to his girlfriend where he gets everything else he wants. The truth is I still don't know much at all about my husband currently and he doesn't know much about me. KitKat you're probably right he probably thinks if he ever wanted to come back I'm here waiting, but this limbo period can't go on forever.
That brings me to the final point which is trying to determine how much longer this can or should go on. I'm waiting to see where my husband gets a job and what happens to our house. If he moves to another state far away (which may happen) or if he moves to our area and lives with his family, I don't see much point in waiting years to get divorced in hopes that he may return because it doesn't appear that'll happen. On the other hand I still don't feel psychologically like I can make the first move towards divorce. My husband has made terrible choices, he's become a horrible person, and I have no respect for who he became, but I don't see what benefits there are to divorce. The only benefit I can see is if I meet someone new I'm single and can re-marry.
I guess I need to simplify my thoughts. In general I'm busy with my daughter, work, social activities, and errands but when I come here it seems my thoughts are endless...
The main thing I can say about this whole experience is I really do commend people who go straight to filing for divorce when someone cheats on them or abandons them. It just make so much sense. If someone breaks their marriage vows the marriage should end. I made big mistakes taking my husband back before he was ready to change and then making him miserable because he hurt me. The mistakes I made were bad. It seems my mistakes were almost as detrimental to the marriage as my husband's bad behavior were. I wish had been smarter. At least if I had kicked him out before he left and divorced him he'd realize what he lost rather than feeling he has all the power to string me along. I encourage anyone who is early in their situation to consider taking strong action but I'm also well aware how difficult it is to execute a divorce you don't want.
Nicole, there is nothing inherently wrong with being in limbo. It just [censored], but it does give you the gift of time, to either reconcile, or allow you to get your own mind straight about what you want. Limbo will only last as long as you want it to. When you are tired of being in limbo, and trust me on this, you will get tired of being in limbo, it's fairly easy to move on.
As far as dating, if you don't want to, don't. I get that. Personally, I don't think you are giving men enough credit. Do most of the men you'll meet want to sleep with you? Yes. But just because you date them doesn't mean you have to sleep with them. My suggestion is not to think of "dating" as "a prelude to sex". Just think of it as a pleasant evening out with interesting conversation, some decent food, or maybe an activity that's just fun or different.
Also, go where like-minded men go. Your Mr Right isn't at a singles bar, but maybe he's at church or a mosque. I suspect you'll run into some there who are divorced, against their wishes, and will respect where you're coming from.
Jim, thanks for taking the time to respond to that long message. I need to work on being brief.
I'm tired of being in limbo but I also don't feel it's easy to move on so it's hard to say what's happening! It's good to know it should become clearer over time.
I agree that going on a first date should and could just be dinner and conversation without feeling so much pressure to fend a guy off. If I ever do go on a date, which I have no idea if I will, I'll try to not be so limited. The only concern is if you start dating someone and it gets serious the guy thinks it's time to start spending nights together and I say no at that time, then he'll probably be upset that he wasted his time. I just feel it's so much easier to skip this whole ordeal. I probably won't meet a guy at the mosque though. Almost every mosque has separate male and female entrances and they're totally segregated. Maybe in the parking lot?! I'm not so sure about church either because the one I was attending was 100% elderly people but maybe I'll find a new one where we live now.
I'm guess if I ever meet someone it'll be through work. That's how I met my husband and where I have unlimited interaction with a wide range of people.
The guy from the UK is still in the picture via work. Today his colleague (who is also his friend) came to our city and I met him with my boss. For whatever reason that one week when we all wrote that paper together made a big impact on us all. The guy I met today was also involved. My boss seemed surprised by how well we know each other after that one week. Then I walked out with this guy and we talked for a long, long time on the street. I'd have to say it was pretty clear he was interested although he has a girlfriend and there's also an age difference but sometimes when you're with someone in person you just know. All these years I felt invisible to men being married and then having a child but it seems there's some change that happens when you no longer wear a wedding ring and your child isn't with you - people just see you as a single woman.
Anyway, my husband has been asking for my help with a few minor things lately and I've done it for him because I really want to keep things good between us since he's somehow still coming up with the money that we need and I still want our daughter to see us talking and interacting well. Since everything is happening informally right now without a separation agreement or divorce papers I feel it's better to stay on good terms and do small favors for one another but who knows what will happen.
I still dream of my husband waking up one day and realizing how bad he messed up and working hard to fix everything but I know there's not much else I can do to facilitate that happening. It's now been a year since he left for the second time.
I can't fix all the grammatical errors from typing fast but there's one I just noticed after realizing how fast I typed - there's one sentence that should read, "...my husband has been asking for my help with a few minor things lately and I've done them for him..."
Jim, I wanted to ask how you're doing and if you can post an update on your thread?
Hi Nicole!
I´m reading and smiling N. Feel the fresh air on your face while you are walking.
Please start a new thread. You have reached the 100 posting/reply limit for this one. Thanks!