Hi everyone,
I have just joined the community after reading through many of the threads and getting familiar with the concepts of DBing, specifically the 180s.
Here is the story of what is happening in my world. I will start with some background.
I have been with my H for almost 10 years. After 5 1/2 years of dating, we have been married for 3 1/2.
H has a son from a previous relationship. He was 4 when we started seeing each other. It has been a rough road learning how to be a stepmother but we've managed to get to a decent spot and I have always been thankful that H has been so patient with me (I know it was hard for both of us to adjust). At the same time, there have certainly been ongoing struggles with our different parenting styles.
H has always been very introverted. I consider myself one as well. We don't go out a lot and were always content just being in the same room together even if we weren't necessarily chatting. He used to tell me he felt more comfortable and vulnerable with me than anyone else. That being said, I noticed over the years that he is also very conflict avoidant. He suppresses his feelings and for most of our relationship he has almost never been the one to start a conversation about something he was unhappy about. I would usually get frustrated knowing something was wrong or if one of us was unhappy and be the initiator of these conversations. He also tends to get frustrated very easily if such conversations last longer than he thinks they need to, which in some cases is not long at all.
He is a chronic procrastinator although I also see this as some form of avoidance, because it happens even with things that I think most people would see as fairly important.
I have always handled all the finances in terms of paying bills and we never merged bank accounts, so he usually just gives me a certain amount each month for bills and then we just sort of alternate paying for groceries, dinners out, etc. Any time something logistically needs to be done in the household, like calling to renew a cable package, I do it. I am pretty much the life coordinator for us.
I did explain to him at one point how I get stressed being the only one who has to manage and plan things. Whether it's our finances, our wedding, vacations - he is 90% hands off. He said he prefers that I do these things simply because I'm better at it, but offered to take a few things if I wanted him to. I felt like it was just him appeasing me so we never arranged anything different. I have asked him to take the lead on setting a time for us to meet on any issues, whether budget or just things we want to talk about between us so things wouldn't fester, and it never happened. I did not continue to point this out or "nag" about it... I know part of this is probably my fault for not setting a boundary or realizing I needed/wanted one earlier in the relationship.
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At any rate, we have been trucking along in life and dealing with the bumps as we go, and I am not naive about the fact that there have certainly been ongoing issues that don't improve much. Recognizing that we don't "hear" each other well in our style of communication, I've suggested things along the way like couple's counseling (something we did before we got married, which surprisingly at the time he acted like he would do again) but he has never had any continued interest in that - even when I reminded him that he seemed to like it before.
A little over a year ago he had back surgery, and it went well and didn't debilitate him too much, but he did have to take a rest from work. I think he is a bit of a workaholic, which he has always done to make sure we have the money for the "extra" things we want, which I have always appreciated. But we also frequently talk about how it is good for him to take breaks and we will be okay, and that we NEED that for both him and the family.
FYI, I am the primary breadwinner. I basically make double than what his typical salary has been across various jobs. It doesn't bother me at all and he has certainly played a major role in us meeting financial goals as I have student loans that prevent me from having much wiggle room, so most of what he gets is what becomes our savings and it all evens out in the end, in my opinion. I have always emphasized that if he's unhappy in a job or working too hard, I want him to not stress about being a "provider" so much. We've even joked about him becoming a stay at home husband if we could ever get to that point.
After the surgery he took a new job and the place was TERRIBLE. His previous job wasn't all that great either, and we had hoped this would be a good change. It was a small business but the WORST ownership in the world. He managed the place but was extremely stressed and decided he was going to help the other employees find new jobs since he has a lot of connections in his industry and he felt bad for them.
This is really where I noticed our problems getting serious in the R. He would come home and unload all of the ridiculous things that happened at work. I wasn't mad at him for doing so - I empathized and expressed to him how frustrating it was to have him have to go through it! Admittedly, there were times I tried to give advice which he ended up telling me at one point he didn't want me to do. It hurt my feelings a bit but I understood and tried to do it less so he didn't feel like I was telling him how to do his job.
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Meanwhile, we started looking for a home. We had been living in an apartment for our whole relationship up to this point. Well, aside from when we very, very first met and he was living in the old home him and his son's mother lived in, which he was really struggling to keep up with on his income alone (and I was still in school at the time) so we ended up walking away and having it foreclosed upon.
We signed a contract and started building, and H said as soon as we closed on the home he hoped to have everyone out of the company and would then leave immediately himself. I fully supported the decision as I knew this was a very bad situation for everyone involved.
During the construction of our home, things just kept getting worse with his job. He was always texting people from work when he wasn't there because everyone was looking to him for so much support. While stressful, I think he really enjoyed this attention...and started comparing it to our relationship. Mind you, the people he managed were typically high school or college age, with this being one of their first jobs, and we obviously the situations you deal with at work are different than the complexity in a marriage.
I fully supported his role as a mentor and leader to these people, but I really started to recognize that he was putting even more attention than usual into work where he was now in a "hero" role than to be at home working on things with me. He got more distant at home and there were absolutely times where I asked him what was wrong. He would always say he was fine and if I were to persist, he would get annoyed and actually TOLD me to stop asking. So I did. Much of his time is spent on his iPad or phone (and this is even the case when his son is around), to the point where I feel like it's an addiction or at least a major major distraction from the real world.
He has also slept on the couch for YEARS. This used to be an intermittent thing that was the result of his back pain, our different sleep schedules, and the fact that he snores loudly which was disruptive to me. I accepted all of these as valid and figured we are just one of those contemporary couples who don't have to sleep in the same bed! I would still request him to sleep in the bed sometimes (with varying success rates) but largely it has been "normal" for so long.
From an intimacy perspective, we haven't had the most amazing sex life but I have always tried to make it happen at least once a week. Admittedly that doesn't always happen and I also expressed to him how as his son gets older, it's a little more awkward being intimate when he is in the house (which is half the time).
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I feel most of this came to a head on our anniversary last year, 2017. He planned a nice dinner out, at an expensive restaurant, but spent almost the entire time on his phone because someone from work needed his help. I was appalled and hurt. I didn't say anything at dinner but I was certainly not my normal self, and I think at some point after we got home he asked me what was wrong, noticing my behavior. When I expressed my frustration at what happened, I think he admitted that it was not the right thing to do, but he also got very defensive.
At some point in the conversation he outright said that he thinks people at work know him better than I do, which really hurt me. I made a hurtful comment back (the first time I've really ever done that) and regretted it. After that argument, when we revisited a few days later, he inflated the part of the argument that was my fault and said he thinks about the comment I had made all the time and he can't get past it. I apologized to him multiple times and just tried to let him know where I was coming from, how much what he said had hurt me too and that I was just reacting. It didn't do much but again, we continued on with life although I really started to question where his head was a because he made me feel like I was a completely bad person with no compassion about what I was struggling with.
I did also ask him - in a separate conversation later on - why he was moving forward building a house with me if he felt this way about our relationship. He had said it's not something he is immediately concerned about, that if things are the way they are in 5 years then maybe it will be time to do something... but basically "we'll cross that bridge when we get there." He seemed to downplay it.
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So fast forward to a few months ago - we've moved into the house. He quit his job - hallelujah - although he has not found a new one (which again, I'm not rushing him). But he was still acting distant and generally unhappy. One time I ask him what the deal is after he snapped at me for no reason. I had been very aware of my tone and interactions with him and really did not think I did anything wrong. At that time he had a mini-breakdown and said he wasn't sure why he was feeling the way he was feeling. I encouraged him to talk to ANYONE, whether me, a friend, his parents, or a doctor. That was really the extent of that conversation and I made sure to let him know I was there for him and just wanted to support him.
An argument occurs again not long after - over text, which was my mistake - because I couldn't stand his continuing to be distant (and that morning I don't think he kissed me goodbye which NEVER happens). I outright asked if he wants to be with me and expressed my frustration that he doesn't seem to be trying (another mistake in hindsight, as we all know now). He tells me he feels I am not supportive enough, I am too negative, I give the impression that nobody can do anything right, etc. We go back and forth a little and I point out to him that he has told me outright to stop asking him what's wrong. His response? I should have just known to keep asking and insist upon it if I was really concerned. People who really know the other person would know to do that. What?!
I try to ask him what he thinks we can do, basically demanding he tell me something because I don't want him to be unhappy (probably another mistake), until finally he dropped the bomb and said he thought we'd be better apart. I ask if it means that he wants a divorce, and while he beat around the bush a bit more after, he eventually said yes.
He comes home from work and I'm a frickin mess. I start doing the begging and pleading and trying to rationalize why we got to this spot and how I don't see it as something we can't fix. Of course, he was not backing down. He was done, still not agreeable to counseling, still in the belief that if we haven't figured it out by now that it's not possible. Telling me he doesn't feel the love anymore (ILYBNILWY). That night I bawled and hyperventilated in his arms on the couch, asking questions (rhetorical ones in that moment) about what we were going to do with the house and the pets and would I ever see his son again. He said not to think about that right now.
Then, the next few days he continued to run in and out of the home going to different side jobs he had been setting up to keep himself busy, acting almost completely normal, aside from not wearing his wedding ring. I was so confused. Finally on his way to work again one morning I asked if I could tell my mom. He agreed and said he thought I should talk to someone and get out of the house. Then after he left for work, a short time after he texts me and says he "wants to try" and we could talk later. I feel a glimmer of hope, but I still ended up telling my mom, which has been a huge help along this rollercoaster since then (but I don't know if he knows I told her as I never confirmed with him whether I proceeded after his text message).
We talked later that day (which I had to initiate again. I waited as long as I could and it seemed he was just going to let it go). But when we did he just said that he didn't think it was fair to not give me a chance after he saw my reaction - but that he wasn't making any promises because he feels this way for a reason. He sees me trying to do things but it just doesn't give him that same feeling as before or motivate him to work on things anymore.
He also SAID that he wanted us to outline what we would do if it does end up coming to a divorce ultimately, so that our emotions wouldn't get in the way (we both did agree we wouldn't want it to be ugly or fight, and we don't have a whole lot - aside from the house - to split up). But once again, he never sat down to do that or requested we do it, and I never pushed the issue again. I feel overall we did have a level-headed conversation in the moment and felt some hope. He started wearing his ring again.
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Meanwhile I sent a message to the person who married us, who is an old friend of his (they are not super close). I tell him what's going on in confidence and ask for his advice. He tells me to focus on what I can change and improve about myself and just continue to be positive and CHOOSE acts of love even if he doesn't acknowledge, appreciate or reciprocate it.
So I start doing these things and admittedly took it overboard trying to compensate. Predictably, H saw it as fake (obviously I hadn't read any advice on this site yet). Even though it was excessive, it certainly wasn't fake and the things I was doing I HAD done in the past, just not at that frequency. So I still get how it can be seen as a bit "extra". H had asked me why it took him asking for a divorce for me to do these things and while of course I don't see it as having NOT tried before, all I could do was explain that I'm not perfect, that I'm trying to work on myself and I just didn't realize how much he needed me to focus on these things before. I agreed to back off a bit, which is still really confusing/hard because as many others in these forums have shared, I don't want to not do something and then have it held against me. It seems like such a delicate and unforgiving balance that I feel is so unfair to have to try to figure out.
Anyway, I continued being positive and it seemed things were going a little better in terms of our interactions. It was still definitely different - not great hugs and those weird side kisses - but he wasn't avoiding it all together. But after about a month of doing this and feeling so unloved and confused in return, I broke down the other day again in the bathroom. I planned to get it out in private and move on because I knew he would be annoyed by it, but eventually he came in and saw. He stood there and didn't say anything, but he stayed there so I felt like I had to start talking. I said I didn't mean to get upset but it's hard feeling like your husband doesn't want anything to do with you. He continued his story of this being hard for him too and how he hates seeing me like this, etc.
So (to make this regression worse) I ask again what he wants to do because it seems like we're just in limbo not doing anything, and we should either be going our separate ways or working on it, OR if he's not sure to at least be taking steps to figure it out, not just living our lives in this weird space (I know I was trying to be rational which I've learned does not work here). He reiterated that he doesn't trust how long any changed behavior would last (all the while I'm restraining my feelings about how the hell I can ever trust someone in a marriage again if he proceeds just giving up on it). I say it sounds like he's not sure and he then emphasizes he IS sure, and thought he was clear before, that he thinks divorcing would be best.
He made sure to mention that it seems like I keep hinging on little things he's saying to give me hope - which is partly accurate - but also, dude, you just aren't making sense!!
Finally I said if that's what you want...you will have to do it because I just can't. I'm not the one who wants it. Going back to his tendency to procrastinate and such, I figure if he really goes through the work of getting papers and all that, he must REALLY want it.
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This was just a few days ago. I have been a wreck again since then and after having read more of this stuff I am considering the 180s instead of the "choosing love" route, although as I saw in one of the threads here I don't think it's always black and white and I am starting by experimenting with a blend to see what seems to get positive results or not. I do feel like I need to continue showing compassion and some level of love since, again, he claims that's what was missing before...but I just need to be careful not to "chase" him and be so available overall, or intent on saying "I love you" and such if he's going to maintain he wants a divorce. The "I love you" part and showing no physical affection has been THE HARDEST because I feel like I'm being so cold and just reinforcing that I'm not there for him.
He has stopped wearing his ring as of this last discussion again, which really troubles me. I also notice, again, that he can be completely cheerful and happy-go-lucky after these conversations as if everything is normal, which is so crazy to me.
I do NOT think any OW is involved. Of course I'm not with him 100% of the time but I just feel like if that really was the case, why wouldn't he just abandon me for her? I fully believe there are other issues going on that he is not handling in a productive way. This is not to abdicate responsibility for anything I KNOW I need to do, and am committed to doing, to improve the relationship and myself, but it is just my honest assessment.
Legally, I don't think I can make us be physically apart as me leaving the house would not be a good idea and I don't think asking HIM to leave will be a good choice either in this situation...
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I have definitely wondered if he is just riding on the coattails until he feels he is personally in a better situation financially. From a logistics standpoint, I have to say he'd be pretty stupid to give up the stability I bring to his life and even on my worst day I really don't believe I'm such a terrible person or have been that bad in this relationship. He doesn't seem like the kind of person to take advantage, but I don't know. Then again, on some days I wonder if he IS trying to make me mad so that I make the move to file for divorce (which is the one thing in our life together that I will NOT do unless I really am feeling abused or just super unhealthy staying in the situation, because I don't think it's a solution to any of this).
At the end of the day, I am trying not to make any accusations. But I know I also can't take what he says or does at face value. So, as the DB technique suggests, I am trying to get my own life while also finding that balance with H.
It is the hardest, most gut wrenching thing I have ever had to experience, and I have to constantly stop myself from wondering WHY. Why can't he see all the things I've given up in my life to support him? All the stresses I've had to deal with? Why is he being so critical of me, while so easily brushing his faults under the rug or admitting to them but then still making it my problem because "I deserve better"? I can't imagine how this isn't a death sentence for people who have been together for multiple decades and have kids going through this, because I would do anything for this to NOT be happening to me right now. I feel like my entire life up to this point will have been for nothing if we get a divorce, and that I will have to rethink all of my future on top of it.
I will stop here and continue to journal over time because this is already astronomically long...but I hope someone manages to read through it all to help understand my situation and give advice as I try to navigate this.
Thank you for welcoming me to the community.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
just ugh... your angst surely comes through... and i am sorry about that... i am a former Wayward Wife who is piecing with my H, and we have been piecing a bit over 3 years after a very long physical separation... my advice to you is the same advice i give to any and all LBS... SERIOUSLY detach and GAL... by seriously, i mean you do it wholeheartedly... by wholeheartedly, i mean--no starts and stops and no doing it according to your H behavior... you do it with everything in you--for YOU... i believe this will give you the best chance to save your M...
most LBS cannot do it... it is very difficult... i see that most LBS eventually get around to doing it, but not until it's a bit too late... at that point, they are basically saving themselves... if you can do this in the early stages, i believe your chances of saving your M are greater... and if you do it without regard to how your H reacts--because he will likely react, will not like it, will try to guilt you--you will have a greater chance of him coming back... it will feel very wrong, like you are making things worse--but he has to come to a place where he sees he has lost you... you cannot fake it... you cannot do it until he starts to show signs of coming back, because he will back off just as soon as you think things are good again... and you will go through the cycle again and again--and that lessens the effect of detaching and GAL... he will come to see that it's all a game just to get him back... and you will weaken with each cycle...
--artista
Yes, what Artista said. Detachment is key and the sooner the better. I think you know a lot of your behavior was heavy pursuit as when you described it you mentioned not having read DR yet, so I think you probably already know this, but stop the pursuit immediately. Read the book, read Cadet's links. Read Sandi's rules and follow them. Read them every day or even several times a day to remind yourself of how to behave around him.
You mentioned doing a 180 on not showing him love, NO do NOT do that right now. It will just drive him farther away. You can't fix that right now. Detach, get out, GAL, work on yourself, leave him alone. Don't initiate any R talks EVER! Right now you look sad, lonely, desperate and needy to him. Your goal is to turn that around and start looking strong, independent, desirable, valuable. The first will repulse him, the 2nd will attract him back.
This takes time, so be patient!
Welcome TJT! And as cadet and others say, sorry you are hear. But I have good news:
Nothing you have seen or heard from your H is original. We've all seen the same things, heard the same things, and gone through the same emotions.
First, do as cadet says and read DB/DR. Read all of his links. Do that homework, you will be so much better off for it.
GAL!! So important. There is no way to properly detach without GAL. Continue your 180s.
One word of caution: do nothing or do not stop doing anything just to see "his reaction". WASs are notoriously good at seeing disingenuous actions for what they are.
Do GAL FOR YOU! Do 180s FOR YOU! Do detach FOR YOU!! DBing is more about preparing YOU for what comes next than for trying to change him or his mind. Sometimes it has that side benefit, but make these changes for you, not him.
Also, do not ignore the advice here because "he already feels unsupported" yada yada yada. WASs are notorious for making up reasons for giving up. From reading your sitch you were TOO supportive of him. In fact you were an enabler. Covering him for finances, covering him for bread-winning, covering him for doing 90% of the work in the home and MR (your words). THAT IS ENABLEMENT.
Believe it or not that is the cause of his resentment. It was funny, when I was reading your sitch about him trying to find jobs for his employees I immediately thought, wow he is more worried about them than he is her! And then you had typed the exact same words!! Guess what, you don't need him. He knows that. He needs you. But these employees, he felt (and they felt) needed him. And that gave him purpose. That gave him responsibility. That gave him a sense of being needed. You need to tap into that. You need to quit being his enabler and let him stand on his own two feet.
As I read your sitch I thought, wow, she sounds more like the guy and he sounds more like the girl in this MR. That may be a tad sexist, but I don't care. Men and women are biologically programmed for gender roles. And when those roles get mixed up problems occur. I've seen it dozens of times. You being the breadwinner is a huge red flag, whether we like it or not, that is the way our world was designed. That is why one sex bears the children and the other does not. You cannot defeat biology, no matter how hard many try.
You used the word "contemporary". "Contemporary couples" divorce at a 50% rate. That's for first marriages. Second and third marriages that rate goes up exponentially. Why? Partly because our society has tried to eliminate gender roles. And again, that is fraught with peril for MRs because biology.
So quit enabling him. Let him be a man and stand on his own two feet. And by all means do not question DB techniques because of what he says! WASs RARELY, almost NEVER say the truth. BELIEVE NOTHING HE SAYS. And only half of what he does.
TJT,
So sorry to read what you've been going through. It's a shockingly familiar pattern. What is absolutely amazing is that everyone on this site tends to come from very different backgrounds and have very different relationships, but when things start to fall apart the dynamics are entirely predictable and consistent.
The great news about that is that there are thousands of pages written about what has not worked for anyone once this dynamic starts.
The tragic news is that no one believes in the accumulated wisdom because it is counter-intuitive and requires tons of self-discipline. It seems everyone needs to play out the same mistakes over and over again in their own way until they eventually gain enough experience to see and agree upon what they should have done to begin with.
If you step back from this situation and look at it as an impartial observer, you have an H who:
-- has historically been conflict avoidant and failed to work through relationship challenges with you
-- has shown limited interest in stepping up to give you what you need in this relationship
-- has invested more of himself into his relationships with his coworkers than into his family
-- has contributed less than a third to the financial well-being of the household
Yet despite all this, he's now calling all the shots in the relationship, making you feel "less than" and undesireable through his disinterested demeanor toward you, and making you jump through an ever-changing series of hoops, not for any near term gratification but just for the possibility of maintaining hope for something to somehow get better at some uncertain future date.
If you step back and look at things from this perspective, what do you think is driving you so hard to try to maintain this relationship, which, according to your own recounting, doesn't seem to have been very fulfilling for YOU for a very long time?
Why do you think you feel this burning, urgent need to bring H back to the table and do all the work in order to save this?
Let me be clear, I'm pro-marriage, and I'm all in favor of helping you set things right, so I'm not asking you these questions to dissuade you from saving your marriage. We can get to that. Before we do, I'd like you to DIG DEEP and question WHY you are motivated to act the way that you're acting right now.
It's really critically important to understand that, because this drive that you're feeling is your #1 worst enemy. Nothing will derail your chances sooner than continuing to follow your inner voice.
So why is your inner voice telling you to do these things when to any third party observer, it looks like HE is the one that should be fighting to get YOU back?
Acc
Everyone seems to have given you great advice. I'll be following your story. Sorry about your situation.
... you do it with everything in you--for YOU... i believe this will give you the best chance to save your M...
most LBS cannot do it... it is very difficult... i see that most LBS eventually get around to doing it, but not until it's a bit too late... at that point, they are basically saving themselves... if you can do this in the early stages, i believe your chances of saving your M are greater... and if you do it without regard to how your H reacts--because he will likely react, will not like it, will try to guilt you--you will have a greater chance of him coming back... it will feel very wrong, like you are making things worse--but he has to come to a place where he sees he has lost you... you cannot fake it...
Thank you artista... this makes sense and I've definitely started to take the mindset of not "reacting" to H, whether good or bad. I'm the only thing I can control after all, as hard as it is. Sometimes it really does feel like a game and I get resentful that I am having to GAL to a degree that I normally wouldn't - not because he would ever prevent me from it before (he has never been controlling or anything like that) but because I'm just more of an introvert and I truly don't care to go out all the time and see friends every day, etc. So even though GALing may be good for me in one sense, it still doesn't feel totally authentic either.
I think you know a lot of your behavior was heavy pursuit as when you described it you mentioned not having read DR yet, so I think you probably already know this, but stop the pursuit immediately.
YES. 100% I realize this. I do feel like I caught it early and even at the time I knew it wasn't the right thing to do but was just such an emotional reaction that almost couldn't be stopped...so hoping it didn't do TOO much damage and being really mindful to control myself or find another outlet if I'm feeling that way again...
You mentioned doing a 180 on not showing him love, NO do NOT do that right now. It will just drive him farther away. You can't fix that right now. Detach, get out, GAL, work on yourself, leave him alone. Don't initiate any R talks EVER!
That's reassuring, and what I feel most comfortable/confident with doing when I step back and think about it. Definitely avoiding any R talks, although that has posed a challenge for me in how I can set certain boundaries (like with intimacy...) if I don't want to bring up, for example, that sometimes it's confusing when he wants to be intimate given the situation at hand (and the fact that there are little to no other displays of affection aside from that).
Instead I have just repositioned in my head that he doesn't see sex the same way right now, and that the expectation in this moment is sex being more of a primal need, I guess, vs. other displays of affection that I might desperately want.
Of course, as Steve has pointed out, I then ask myself if that's just enabling him to continue being flippant without "consequences", but I have a hard time "witholding" it especially while we're just in limbo and he doesn't seem to be taking any other actions on what he's said in terms of physically separating. Taking it as the gift of time as I've heard folks mention multiple times on these threads, and also trying to ignore any assumptions about his intent (like him just being an a$$ and taking advantage) since we can seemingly never know what's really going on. At the end of it all I figure that's something HE would have to live with, knowing he did that to me without ever intending to stay (if it ends up that way).
Steve, I really appreciate your post... I'm not even going to quote it because I have so much to respond to in it, lol. But thank you for the welcome and for relating, first and foremost.
I totally get what you mean about not doing things just to see his reaction. What I meant by that was not necessarily experimenting on things I wouldn't normally do, but doing things as I feel natural and seeing if they are helping or hurting, and if they are not helping, to find some other way to approach it. I don't know if that makes sense.
I believe you have a point about enabling, and that is the hardest thing for me to make sense of for myself because it's like there's this fine line between being supportive and positive through anything and figuring out when you absolutely must push back on someone.
To address some of the points Accuracy made, I've spent a long time thinking about why I haven't been more definitive in drawing a line on some his behaviors. I am NOT a person afraid of conflict or to speak my mind. But over time I think I've learned that because it doesn't really "work" to point out even specific examples of things that bother me or that i don't like, I have had a choice to make each time and ask myself if a particular issue is something I really want to push on, knowing it won't motivate him to change, or would I be okay letting it go?
More often than not my answer to myself has been that while it would definitely be IDEAL to have him be more receptive to changing certain things, I've never thought the overall relationship was terrible or without any other good things between us, so I'd rather keep the relationship alive rather than try to push someone to change to an extent where they would think I'm so unhappy or to where they would get fed up with the "nagging" and leave. Admittedly this results in some of my needs not being met, but I can't always meet all of his needs either (taking the perspective of neither of us being perfect).
I get that it's more the principle of these things and how he's less willing to work with me to make changes, or being less concerned about how I feel than it seems he should. I will say that HAS been the one thing that has bothered me, that even if he can't understand where I'm coming from or why something is important to me, he hasn't really ever been the type of person to try and find out. It's like this just "are what they are" with him.
In situations like that where I try to point out that it seems like he doesn't care when he doesn't do X thing, he has (of course) just gotten defensive and says that he does try and I just must not be paying attention or seeing it. So then of course who am I to say he's not trying? I just start questioning if maybe I have been a little absent minded lately or if maybe my expectations or standards are too high (generally speaking this tends to be the case with me, but I am also very self aware, so maybe I have been overcompensating in this area to the other extreme...)
It's just hard to enforce something when you know the other person is going to interpret it different than our own reality, and you can't change how they see it, and overall you believe they're still a good person, with no bad intent, and they do other things to show they care about you and the world is not on fire. While many things suck, I feel like you're human and I still love you and as long as I believe you still love me, we'll keep going and keep learning (I would hope) and hopefully get better over time, even if it's a long time. Because someone else will probably have something I don't like and that I can't change too.
But, clearly, the "you love me" part seems to have changed, since the love isn't being "felt" on that side anymore..which, yeah, I know means I need to make some changes too. For the record, there have definitely been times where I just say you know, he doesn't seem to realize what he has and should be fighting harder if he really did care about it.
Back to Steve's point, this whole gender role thing I think is key too, and something I will have to try to adjust for. I am a very strong woman and given my career success I know that it can't be easy for him, no matter how much he seems to be supportive and okay with it on the face of things. And while it won't be easy for ME to be more "submissive" or less of a provider than I know I am, that's one of those needs I know I need to do better in trying fulfill for him, now that you put it that way. The whole "letting him feel like he can stand on his own two feet" was a really helpful perspective, especially in making me feel better about detaching, so thank you for that.
I have more to say and update you all on but I am going to try to take a break for lunch and then this afternoon I am GAL with a friend, who I just let in on my sitch recently...so I'll be back. But again, thank you all for your thoughtful responses and reading!!
One word of caution on sharing our sitch with friends and family. Be careful. Since your husband is a conflict avoider telling others may be something that is difficult for him to come to terms with, and that can complicate the potential future R. I know I had to walk this line with my W. If I had told my family and friends I am pretty sure we wouldn't be in piecing and R today. She too is a big conflict avoider due to her childhood with a father who was very abusive to her mother.
So just keep that in mind. Try to limit who you confide in as it could be a barrier to your H returning to the MR.
TJT, I would suggest NOT being sexually intimate with him right now. He shouldn't be able to eat cake like that. Telling you he wants a D and then continuing sexual contact with you is not okay, in my opinion.
He fulfill his "primal needs" with self-gratification if he needs to. I don't think you are helping the situation or yourself in being able to GAL and work on yourself by continuing to have sex given what is going in. You can't sex him back.
Thanks Steve. I guess I'm wondering what would stop my H from thinking I'm telling them even if I really wasn't? Unless I bring it up and say, "Just FYI, I'm not telling anybody anything" but that would seem sort of like having an R conversation, or perceived as wanting to start one, so I hesitate to do that.
Basically I've only told a few friends and they are people I really trust, and quite frankly are the main ones who will help me GAL. I don't think I could do it as effectively if they didn't know what was up (and also, I'm sure at some point they'd wonder where the hell H is every time). I've told them not to let on to anyone else that they know, especially if by some miracle we are all hanging out together (with H) again.
But like I said, even if I really wasn't telling anyone I feel like H would probably think that. I mean, he knows he's hurt me and now I'm hanging out with my friends much more often than usual. It would seem to be a normal assumption to make so either way, I don't know how to mitigate the potential impacts of him thinking that.
I did talk myself out of going to the neighbor's house and telling them, though! I feel terrible that we seem like such stand-offish neighbors because H doesn't want to socialize with anyone and part of me just really wanted them to know that obviously we are going through something and it's not that we don't like them... but in that case I definitely don't know them well enough to trust that they wouldn't say anything and ultimately, I just can't worry about them or what they think of us right now.
So yesterday and today while H has been working I visited with friends. It has been a nice distraction and I think it's helped, but I am definitely drained as an introvert. It's taken a lot of my energy.
H came home from work and seemed a little irritated, in general. We talked about a few things like work and his plans for the rest of the weekend (actually, he asked me what my plans were first) and throughout the conversation he just seemed to have these moments of agitation, for whatever reason. I tried not to show that it bothered me but in my head I was of course wondering what his deal was again (I wasn't forcing him to talk or being overly pressing about his day, etc.)
One thing that has "pinched" right now is that when he left a minute ago to do another shift at work, he stood in the doorway to say he was leaving and asked if I needed anything. Up until now, we've at least still hugged upon leaving or arriving (albeit not always great ones) and even this morning when he left for the first shift (while I was still in bed) he gave me a hug and told me he loved me...
I just keep telling myself over and over what's been said here, that I can't try to make sense of these things or read into them or get my hopes up when he's acting "nice". It is what it is.To that end, should I say I love you back if he says it to me first? Should I hug him back if he hugs me? I feel like NOT responding to those things could be perceived as me being depressed or angsty since it's kind of hard to smile and seem pleasant while staving off a hug or as a response to saying "I love you" without verbalizing it back.
He has continued to ask if I need anything before he heads home, too (something he's always done in our relationship). And last night he did text to tell me to drive home safe since I was going to be getting home late.
While I am getting better at letting things go without spending too much time analyzing them, it's still SO odd to me and gives me pause in the moment, and of course is still maddening. It can be so easy to feel jacked around even from the smallest things.
For the record, would my situation be considered WAS? Since there doesn't seem to be an A at this point? Could it be MLC without an A? Just curious where this falls here.
Lastly for today, I just read the below thread for the first time and I am wondering what this means for me, because given the examples above, I start to think more and more if the conflicting behavior is just the result of H wanting to control the situation, as described here by Zues.
:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2772942#Post2772942 If my H said he wants a D but hasn't done ANYTHING else tactically around that (no papers, no setting of boundaries or expressing any timeline on his end, and I'm pretty sure not talking to anyone else about this) and yet is not wearing wedding ring, not being affectionate, not telling others, etc. I'm confused whether I should just GAL and 180 and wait to see if he actually takes action toward filing or at least separating, or if I need to do something more? Again in my sitch there doesn't seem to be an A at this point (and I don't believe there is).
Maybe I will be proven wrong one day but until then, am I taking the right steps by letting this ride out, since we can't believe what he says? My plan was to GAL and 180 until one of two things happened: 1) either I find out about other circumstances that would require me to create bigger boundaries, like an A happening, or 2) I feel the emotional strain of being in "limbo" gets too much to where I feel it would be better for MY well-being to move forward with the D (still something I really would not want to initiate).
By all means I don't want to ask him to make steps toward something that I don't want to begin with, but after reading Zues' thread and reflecting on other behavior I may have enabled in the past, I'm definitely worried that he may just be trying to get his own crap together so that WHEN he does it, it's easier for him. It's so hard because I just don't
know truly why he's not acting on it...e.g. if he's not fully convinced it's the right thing (despite what he's told me), if he's waiting to see if the changes I'm making last, etc.
Do I point out at some point (or, now) that dude, you asked for a divorce, but I don't see anything happening so in the meantime here's some things that have to change until you make a solid step one way or the other (and if so, what should those things be)?? Again I feel like that would be having the R conversation, and I just took this limbo period as the gift of time but I know it might not be that simple..
I don't want to be naive, but if it ends up being that he is really just taking advantage of the situation until HE is ready, I was accepting that as something he has to live with knowing he strung me along. Except I'm sure he could rationalize it by the fact that he did tell me that's what he wanted, despite his lack of swift action. So I know it wouldn't be unreasonable for me to protect myself and hold him accountable for what he's said, but aside from GAL and 180s I'm not fully clear on what else I should be doing or saying to him specifically in this case....ughghggh.
Obviously it would be nice if someone could both say what they mean and act what they say...
Like its been said a few times here... work on yourself. Be the spouse only a fool would leave...
Accept its out of your hands, and only you can control you...
I'm in limbo as well, I think for some of us, depending on our personality, that unknown, no specific horizon to work toward is the hard part. It is for me. I'm a do'er...
TJT, please read the detachment thread. Yes it's okay to reciprocate when he says ILY or hugs you. Just never initiate. GAL helps you detach. 180s make you the spouse only a fool would leave. See how it works?
You are still too focused on him. We've all been there. We focus on our WAS way more than we should be. Lots of WAS make their BD proclamation and then sit and do nothing about it. My W did that. In fact, looking backI almost think she did it to get me off her trail on her EA.
But as cdn2a said, focus on you. DETACH. And yes all of this is easier said than done but nothing worthwhile is easy.
And yes he's a WAS. TJT I'm detecting that you haven't read DB/DR. Please get a copy of DR and read it. A lot of this will clear up for you.
TJT, I have been reading up on your sitch for a few days now. I see a lot of similarities in our personalities, some in our sitches too. I do not know if mine is a WAH or WH yet, well with us at the doorstep of D maybe it doesnt matter. You are restless and trying to control the sitch that you really cannot do anything about. Have you read thru all of Cadet's homework links, there is a lot of helpful info there. It is still quite early for you so it is natural to react to Hs moods and behaviors but whenever you need to vent out or seek advice use this forum and it will help immensely. For now pull back and watch what happens. I will follow along and chime in whenever I have anything to offer. Take care - Arshi
Thanks cdn. It's true that I don't do well with uncertainty. I've actually been trying to work on that in other areas of life (aka work) but never imagined I'd have to do it in my marriage!
Steve, thanks for clarifying some of my questions. You're also right, I have not fully read DB, I have just tried to read as much as I can on this forum at the moment. Between the 180s and how to GAL and detach, etc. I've taken some notes as reminders but it's all a lot to remember - not to mention the general confusion caused by the sitch and trying to practice these behaviors I'm totally not used to!
After reflecting on it briefly this morning, I think part of it is me looking for what's unique in my situation simply out of fear that whatever framework or solution might not be 100% the right thing to do in every case. But I get it, nobody is promising anything, there are no guarantees, and I'm aware of the flaws in some of my thinking. I just have to get past the fear...
So, quick question, is there a digital version of the book anywhere? Part of the reason I haven't ordered it yet is because I really want to avoid the possibility of him finding it and having to always hide it. I will do it if necessary but digital would be ideal for me.
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As an update from yesterday, after H came home from his second shift of work I had started to make dinner. Not particularly for HIM, to be clear that I'm not trying to "win him over" or whatever, but obviously because I needed to eat too. My outlook was very much that if he wanted to eat, he could, but if not, whatever. We had talked about dinner earlier in the day, discussed leftovers vs. making a new meal, and had left it open-ended at that point.
He did eat and talked about other things about his day in a totally normal way. In these moments I have been making sure to look at him directly and pausing to show attention if I'm doing something else when he starts to talk, as advised.
After dinner, it seemed he was doing small things to be nice. I admit sometimes I am too focused on what he is doing (and I will work on that) but to be clear, sometimes I mention these things because while I do take note of them, I also just want to share what's happening on this forum in a way that paints a more clear picture of the day-to-day stuff in our relationship and helps people understand what I'm going through. I think I am at least slowly doing better in taking steps to detach as far as not letting my feelings be dependent on what he's doing.
After I cleaned up from dinner it was the normal nighttime routine. Him on the couch, watching sports, on his phone/iPad, and me doing my thing and getting comfortable in the bedroom. I always do make sure to go out and tell him when I'm going to bed if he doesn't come in to say goodnight first (happens sporadically). Since all of this has been going on, I have adjusted the past few days to at least NOT initiate saying "I love you" when I tell him I'm going to bed, and sometimes he'll say it but sometimes not. Last night he didn't so that was that. And as an additional note in my medical journal (haha, I'm kidding about that but you get where I'm going with it) he again seemed randomly annoyed by the "interruption". But I've again slowly prepared myself more each day for that to happen, so that's another positive step for me I think.
That said, this morning again as H left for work, he did give me a hug, kiss (not on the lips), and said I love you. Likewise, I've been trying to prepare myself for those actions as well and I do feel like I'm doing better not letting them change my thoughts/feelings one way or another. It's definitely a little harder when it's a display of affection I have to neutralize though.
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I am going to be re-reading the detaching thread over the next week and continuing to read through other resources as I get time. I will be going on a business trip this week so I will have time. I had gone on a shorter trip for a few days when this all first happened and didn't do all the things.
Traveling while going through this is very hard even though I know in other ways it's good. I am going to try to do the full 180 this time and never initiate the texting (calling is not an issue... for whatever reason, for the entirety of our relationship, when one of us is out of town we only text. I had brought it up a few times in the past and told him sometimes I'd like to Skype or whatever, especially when I'm gone longer, but he says it's just not his thing AND I can corroborate that with most every other person in his life he rarely talks live on the phone. If he can get away with it, he'll just text).
So, anyway, I'm pretty nervous about that, just because (as the detaching process mentions) I tend to think how I would feel if he went on a business trip and didn't seem interested in texting me or whatever. Of all the rationalizations for not detaching, that's the one I'm most guilty of - the feeling that I am being cold-hearted if I do it, or that it's sending the wrong message. I want to choose to always take the higher road...I am honestly NOT in the mindset of trying to "fix" him or that I need to help him or that I don't think I have logical reasons to detach... I just want to be a decent human being and hold myself accountable for things I contribute to the sitch too.
And while I have absolutely gotten to a place where I know I can only control myself, it really [censored] that to know that it will not guarantee the same realization on his end. I keep reminding myself that continuing to do all the things I've done up to this point obviously doesn't guarantee that either, so just bear with me here! Arsh - I agree and know you are right that this boils down to me struggling with the realization that sometimes, no matter what we do, life just happens TO us and even if I did everything right, it might not work out the way I want.
If you all haven't noticed already (hah), I'm very introspective and expressive about those reflections. It helps me get things organized in my mind toward clarity. This is typically why my best intentions to make a short post always end up longer...it ends up being its own sort of therapy for me. And having witnesses to it helps.
Needless to say I'll be spending some time on the forum during this next week to give an update or two on how it's going. Thank you all for your continued interest, concern, and responses.
Unfortunately, MWD's books are not available digitally. I agree that would make reading them so much easier. My suggestion would be to find it at the local library, check it out, then hide as well as you can. In my opinion it is better to read it and have him find it, than to not read it.
Stop going out to tell him you are going to bed. That is "initiating" even if you are not the one to hug, kiss and say ILY. When he leave in the morning, do not see him off. If he wants a hug, a kiss and to say ILY he'll come find you.
Detachment is almost impossible if you continue to act like you did prior to BD. This is the mistake almost all of us make, is that after BD we begin to even more to institute a goodbye or hello ritual. To be consistent with affection and ILYs. The problem is they work against you. Make HIM pursue you. Make HIM try to hold onto these rituals.
You might think "well he'll never do that!" At first maybe he won't, but as he starts to miss that then he may go to initiating it. So hang in there and be strong!
So, anyway, I'm pretty nervous about that, just because (as the detaching process mentions) I tend to think how I would feel if he went on a business trip and didn't seem interested in texting me or whatever. Of all the rationalizations for not detaching, that's the one I'm most guilty of - the feeling that I am being cold-hearted if I do it, or that it's sending the wrong message. I want to choose to always take the higher road...I am honestly NOT in the mindset of trying to "fix" him or that I need to help him or that I don't think I have logical reasons to detach... I just want to be a decent human being and hold myself accountable for things I contribute to the sitch too.
this mindset is going to hurt you... as well as your going to him each night to say you are going to bed... this behavior is what i was referring to when i said DETACHING and GAL is HARD--and most LBS cannot do it... and your behavior/thinking here is what LBS use to excuse why they should not detach... he needs to get to a place where he finds himself without you... your chances to be warm and attentive are gone since BD... your chances to be warm and attentive will return should you get to a place of piecing... but you will not get there if you do not mentally move on... and you cannot fake it... and yes--as i said before--he will complain... he will tell you this is why he is leaving you... he will make you feel guilty... it will feel wrong... unnatural... but you cannot fold at that point...
look at it this way... if he leaves you, eventually you are going to have to detach--you will have no choice... but you can initiate the detaching as a means to save your M, and you have control over that... in this way, you do have a choice...
--artista
TJT, I had the same in my sitch. His initial business trips after BD I behaved how I did before BD and he responded same way. He Would message me when he landed, I asked him (multiple times yikes) how his day was and everything else as if it would be before BD. 3 months post BD when things just kept getting worse he went on a trip and didnt tell me he landed or initiate any convo. I was completely NC for the few days he was away. Did this help me I dont know, we are close to D and my letting him just be has not shown any results for me so far. But I am taking advice here as a newbie, my original behavior is what got me here so my only hope is if I 180 and listen to what people say here, it should be better than what it would be otherwise. To put it simply just act as if you are already S or D, behave how it would be at that point in time until you actually detach. That does not mean you will be mean but just that you are minding your own life and not worrying about his.
- Arshi
Thanks for the continued words of wisdom everyone. I will respond more specifically later but I am taking a moment while I’m at dinner tonight to write because I’m having a harder time than I thought I would.
I’m typically totally fine in these trips alone but that’s probably bc I know I can text him everything I’m doing, pictures of where I’m at, etc. It’s so hard being alone and really FEELING it. He has texted me a few times and I’ve been nice, but short and once he said “hope you enjoy yourself” which I can tell was genuine but that’s part of what bothers me... enjoy YOURSELF, as if to say “hope you’re moving on”.
I don’t WANT to just enjoy myself. I get the value of being able to, but I hate the prospect of there not being anything waiting for me when I come back. Nobody to share inside comments with as I would normally do while I’m gone. If I can get through dinner right now without busting out crying, it will be an achievement.
He does continue to text me things about his day on his own.
He has texted me a few times and I’ve been nice, but short and once he said “hope you enjoy yourself” which I can tell was genuine but that’s part of what bothers me... enjoy YOURSELF, as if to say “hope you’re moving on”.
.
that is likely the case as far as where he is right now... you are focusing way too much on him... don't care that he said he hopes you enjoy yourself... don't care if he actually said, "hope you're moving on..."
don't be the typical LBS who finally detaches and GAL once it's too late to save the M... do this with everything in you to give your M its best chance... use these few days to "practice" detaching... don't let this golden opportunity go to waste... you have to be apart, so why not make it count?
bust out crying if you must... just don't do it in front of him...
Thanks Artista. I simply responded to his text with “Thanks”. He doesn’t know everything that’s going on in my head.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Welllllllll helllo everyone.
It's been an eventful few months, to say the least. I stopped posting because I was getting so overwhelmed, I had to get out of my own head. Writing is amazing for me and I was even journaling some on my own but I had to just stop and keep "moving" whether physically or mentally, just to survive I felt like!
I'll try to summarize what's happened but obviously, it's going to be long given my hiatus.
The TL:DR = I did find out my husband had a PA. He is now completely moved, out for 3 weeks now. We barely communicate (only text and great majority of time has been NC). Papers still have not been filed, yet he is not alluding to being confused or caring for me or anything.
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The full version:
After returning from the business trip mentioned above, a loooot of stuff was not right at the house. I smelled perfume in various places - at our kitchen counter, a pillow on the bed, and if all that isn't the worst - the bathtub. He had all the fans on level 11. There was an air freshener in the bedroom (the one he never sleeps in). I could go on.
I didn't say anything about what I was sure of at that point. I know I didn't have enough proof and I'd just get denial. Better to play dumb so I could get more evidence rather than tip him off.
Meanwhile, I went shopping. Bought all new pillows, sheets, comforter, duvet cover. Bought new underwear. It's so weird, what it does to you knowing that your SO has cheated on you, in your very own brand new home to boot. I had weird feelings about myself that were and sometimes still are confusing because of the doubt that's been put in my head. And I am now more convinced that all the "grievances" he had about me that I couldn't make sense of (while I'm not denying the areas I still know I need to improve) were just excuses for what he was doing behind my back, and a great explanation for why, despite the things I DID feel like I was trying to do to engage with him, I just kept getting pushed away.
I didn't want to believe it despite all of my actions above. Part of me kept putting doubts in my head that maybe nothing really happened. But of course it ate at me and ate at me to where I was snooping when I could. Glad I did.
One evening when H was in the shower I decided to look in his wallet. I 200% didn't expect to find anything. He hardly keeps anything in his wallet. Welp, out comes a victoria's secret credit card with the name of another woman (if 22 counts as a woman - she's closer in age to his son than to him). I walked into the shower, told him I needed to talk to him after he got done, and sat on the couch and waited.
He sat down, and I didn't tell him I found the card right away. That was my trump card. I just told him I knew he'd been lying to me, that I knew someone had been in the house while I was gone and he needed to talk. Of course he acts dumb like, "What do you want me to say?" I said he needed to tell me exactly what happened.
First words out of his mouth were, "First of all, we're getting a divorce." Interesting, given even AS WE SPEAK he has (still) not filed. It's been since May that he first swore he wanted a divorce.
He proceeds to tell me he did have someone over, that it was awkward for both of them, he has regrets, etc. But not in a "please forgive me way". He definitely still acted like "it is what it is". I ask him directly if they had sex or were in the bedroom at all. He says no. I didn't believe him. I then tell him I know it was so and so and that I also found the CC in his wallet, so how does he explain that? Apparently - and you all will have to choice but to laugh at this - she was having a hard time with money so he agreed to keep her CCs so she wouldn't spend on them. Come on, man.
I didn't even know what to do at that point and there was no ultimate climax to the conversation. I was still processing. But H was staying upstairs at this point now and I proceeded to go on FB and message the girl AND her boyfriend (yep). It wasn't with any intention of being ugly and I wasn't going to let myself stoop to anyone's level - but I simply laid out that while yes we have had our problems, no papers had been filed and she should probably stay out of it until things are really done. (She didn't respond). To her BF, I simply let him know that his GF had been at my home with a married man snuck in past our driveway cameras and all kinds of lunacy.
Well, he ended up saying he knew a friend of hers they (my H and this girl) work with and she might tell him more. Well, that sort of backfired because this girl of course decided to try to take the fall and they all must have gotten together like a bunch of high schoolers (I guess they practically are, except my almost 40 YO H) to get a story together - because next thing I know, H came downstairs, didn't say anything but got very dramatic grabbing clothes from the closet and stuffing into bags. So of course I realize he must have found out I messaged them.
What happened next is one of many parts of this I will never forget because of the absolute delusion I recognized in him. I go into the closet and ask what's going on. He says, "don't act stupid." I said no, I know you know I messaged them but what's the problem? He tells me that I CROSSED A LINE and I didn't have to bring innocent people into this. This is where my mind did not compute. I stared blankly. I couldn't even be mad.
He then said that it wasn't just this one girl, it was her and a friend who just came over for dinner, after which I questioned why he didn't think that would be important to tell me to begin with (and what had he exactly meant then by having regrets and it being "awkward" for "both" of them?) Again, I knew he was lying, but I was surprisingly level-headed during this whole exchange because of how I so clearly recognized the full on mega denial and justifying going on to make himself feel better. (Later I talked again with this girl's BF and he confirmed he got the exact same story to the letter).
I said directly to H that he was not going to make ME feel bad about this. He took a bunch of stuff and slept at work that night (I know he didn't go to her house because she was still living with her BF at this point).
Anyway, the next day he came home and I tell him I would appreciate if he kept everyone else out of this until it was over. I asked if he returned the CCs to her (apparently he also had her bank card, which he very well may have but I had stopped looking once I found all the evidence I needed). He then said he APOLOGIZED to them, with a straight face to me, again as if he has no freaking clue on this earth how this all sounds from him to me.
I think a week or two went by. He was staying at a friend's house, but on the weeks he had his son they'd come back home because there wasn't a room for his son at his friend's (convenient much?). I then get an anonymous message from FB one morning saying I am being lied to and made a fool of and he has been seeing this girl for months, blah blah blah. Of course at first I was skeptical - it was an anonymous message after all and you know how it is with affairs, we keep having to discover it over and over again - but there was enough info about a bath that I KNEW was accurate, because H had done the SAME thing when he was courting me (trying to count the stab wounds at this point).
I text him, ask if he's aware of the message, he says he is not. I ask for him to call. He says he wants to know what's going on. I just say "me too". When we finally speak, I tell him I know he hasn't told me the full truth, that I AM being made a fool of and at this point he just needs to be completely honest with me. He said he would call me later since he was at work, or when he got home. I didn't get any other call during the day and I knew he was probably once again trying to get a collaborative story going behind the scenes. Looking back I wish I hadn't given him the time in between to do this, because the "truth" I ended up discovering I feel is still limited given he had time to talk to her in between again.Not surprisingly, minutes before H got home that evening I get a text from this girl's BF saying she just came home and "confessed". What I got from my H sounded very similar to what she said.
Which was - yes, he had sex with her. Yes, in the bed I sleep in that he doesn't (despite there being a guest room, there was no decency WHATSOEVER to this). Yes, the bath happened, in MY bathtub, despite him knowing how much I love baths, and oh, by the way, this is our NEW house that I dreamed of being a family with HIM in, and that I've been trying to refinance the past few months since I'M getting stuck with it given we can't sell without owing and he can't afford it on his own. Talk about being trapped in a prison he's created.
He denied the length of the affair and that they had been seeing each other frequently. However, I have talked to the OW's (now ex) boyfriend a lot more since all of this happened, and our stories about each of them disengaging from us and their behaviors aligned very well, to where I do feel like at least the past 6 months, if not perhaps almost a year, have been a lie.
But what hurts me the most about all of this is that he still, absolutely, 100%, does not seem to feel remorse. Sure, he got a little teary eyed at times. But he basically threw a pity party on me saying yes I deserve better, yes he's a piece of [censored], etc. etc. It's like he just didn't want to be the one to make the final call to leave even though obviously that's what he wants. This is the most confusing part, too. At the end he even asked "so what do you want to do going forward?" Looking back I wished I would have said, "What do YOU want to do, because it seems obvious to me!" Instead I did what I had already planned for and told him I don't want him here at the house at all anymore, that I didn't want a divorce and he could stay if he wanted to work on our marriage, but if not, he had to go.
He left the next day and only came back the following weekend with his dad, son, and a trailer. He packed up the rest of the stuff we agreed he could have, handed over the keys. He gave me a hug right before we left and I basically was falling apart at this point, but while I was starting to cry, I kept composure. It lasted a few seconds and he said, "I better go." I told him I loved him, he gave me a weird look (I can't describe it, it was again almost like a pity look) and silently walked to the truck and drove away.
This was the worst day of ever but I did feel a little better knowing that the "up and down" feeling of him coming to the house and then leaving again every other week would be over. But, I was very curious to see what would happen beyond that. I desperately hoped that after a while he would realize the mistake, but also became very very aware of how easy he seemed to be just walking away. Like, if packing up all your (and your son's) stuff from the brand new house we dreamed about and built together - and walking away from your wife - doesn't hit you, then crap, maybe he really is a zombie.
We didn't text much. He asked a few questions about things like health insurance and when they'd be kicked off, to which I told him I can't do anything without a divorce decree. I asked when he was going to file - he said "soon".
I don't know if he's still seeing OW. I know most people would say he has to be, but of course I have no way of knowing now and it would just be so illogical. Financially they are both in a bad place. And also did I mention she's 22? Her ex BF asked me if it was about money, him trying to figure out what the reasoning behind all this is as well, and I said pretty sure it's not, because he (her ex) makes more than H. MLC makes sense but I think okay, there's no way this is going to be a long-term thing with his son and everything involved. But then I realize all the crazy crap that's happened up to this point and believe anything is possible.
So it's been 3 weeks I would say now since he fully moved out. He hasn't filed and despite a few texts early on about stopping by to pick up some mail (which, btw, includes a "discreet" mail order of ED drugs as he had been having problems with that too) he hasn't come by or acted like he cares about really keeping an appointment with me for those items. I DID also ask if he could start giving me his portion of the car insurance bill, given that we are still combined and again, I can't remove him until there's a divorce. He said he would and could do it by PayPal but I haven't seen that yet either. For the most part, we have been NC for the majority of these 3 weeks. Aside from being flaky on those minor items, he doesn't seem to be playing any games with me or having any second thoughts.
WHAT THE HECK IS GOING ON WITH THIS PERSON?! He doesn't seem remorseful, rather that he really doesn't want to be with me but needs to feel better about it by villainizing himself, since he knows I still want to work on things and I think he would prefer instead if I was just mad and told him I want the divorce. But at this point, given he's moved out and there's nothing really serious for us to even engage on, I really don't get why he wouldn't just do it himself if it's what HE really wants! Is it possible for someone to be so much of a coward that even after doing everything else on earth to distance themselves from you they still would't file??
I am going to IC and she asks me if I want him to file. I say no, so she tells me to not bring it up to him. But now here I am in this ultimate limbo stage where H doesn't want to work on things but we're not living together or even talking. And financially, I don't know WHAT he's up to. So while I don't want to file, I feel I will need to file sooner rather than later whether I'm ready or not just to protect myself in case he's deciding to go run up a bunch of debt with OW or something! Plus the fact that I am still paying for health and car insurance for all of us and getting no financial contribution from him for the past month.
I can't tell if maybe he's not filing because he has doubts and there might be hope (or even if he doesn't have doubts, if I should be happy that I have been given that gift of time to where maybe he'll come around) or if there's actually no good reason he hasn't filed from an emotional standpoint and I should just get on with it on his behalf so I don't have to sit here waiting forever.
As an interesting side note, H's former W before me was the one who filed - a good year plus after the separation date per the paperwork - despite the story he told me about it being his choice to leave their marriage. I thought that was a completely different situation and person, but now I'm not so sure and I'm wondering if this is just the same cycle he's going through with me, thinking at some point I'll get over him if he waits long enough and then do it for him. I don't think he's staying married to me while separated for financial gain - yes I'm paying a few things, but they are so minor that I don't think he'd find it valuable enough to not divorce over, if that's what he wanted.
So I'm really struggling with what to do next. I absolutely want to wait wait wait and hope he snaps out of whatever wonderland he's in right now, BUT I have never, ever seen someone flip a switch like this, act like they are so done with absolutely no emotion or second thought whatsoever, and yet still not file for divorce. And I don't want to waste my own time or risk finances, but I just don't think I'll be able to sit right with myself if I file without truly WANTING to deep in my heart. And I also do not want him to feel justified in all this if I file, as if it's something I asked for.
Separately, I can't BELIEVE that after the hurt he has put me through, given the multiple levels of betrayal that have happened, I still want to be with this man. I mean, I clearly fully committed to him through good or the bad, and apparently I don't have that magic switch to turn off my feelings. It's just amazing how much different it is when it's YOU in the situation vs. the third party looking in where you envision yourself setting everything on fire and leaving without looking back, hah!
I do love him, I do want him to be happy and I've read in the other threads about letting him go to be happy how he wants to be, and I feel like I've been doing that little by little (even if not in my head, because of course I still feel like he's not living in reality and we really can be happy, together!) I don't text him anymore just to try to be nice and ask how his day is in the hopes he will see me as a loving positive wife; I don't email him love letters; I have just been silent. And while I'm doing okay, it's the hardest thing I've ever endured in my life and I desperately want it all to end, for him to come back, for us to devote everything we have to a new, rebirthed version of our marriage and know that we will survive anything together, Beyonce and Jay Z style. I don't want this to be how the story ends for either of us.
I thought he was a family man. He was the last person on earth I thought would do something like this, let alone to the degree it's happened and with such little respect and regard for me as a human, if not as a wife. I know too I'm supposed to earn his respect back, but like I say ... I'm truthfully confused now what this man finds valuable at all. If nothing else, it truly is forcing me to live life without him in it, but I've never doubted that I am able to do that. I just really, really, really don't want to, and I do feel like something is wrong with ME that he doesn't want me anymore. Knowing how in love with me he once was to how it is now, I can't wrap my mind around it.
I'll stop for tonight, for crying out loud. I wonder if anyone even reads single posts this long!!
I read your post. Every word.
First thing that popped out to me was "she never finished reading the book". Maybe I am wrong about that but your actions after finding out for sure there was a PA certainly didn't line up with the book.
For instance, contacting OW. This almost always does nothing positive. And it didn't do anything positive in your case either. You made the classic mistake of thinking that you could control him by confronting her. NEVER happens. I've seen and read dozens of sitches with PAs and never have I seen the PA stopped by the LBS going to the OP. Not once.
Second, why are LBSs so hung up on the WAS being remorseful? I see this over and over again. It is almost as if it is okay that he goes around sleeping with whomever he wants as long as he is sorry about it afterward? Or it would make it okay that they WAS destroyed our family, wrecked our children, destroyed someone else's life (the OW's BF) as long as he comes to me and expresses how sorry he is later. Do you see how crazy that sounds? It sounds as crazy as some of the things you point out above that he has said.
I understand that you can't change the health insurance without a change of life status. But the car insurance? You are mistaken I believe. I think you can call and remove him from that anytime you want. Did you just assume you can't or did you actually check into it?
Finally, you ask a lot of questions about why he hasn't filed, though he doesn't want to be with me and presuming he is still having his fun with the 22 yo hussy. That is easy, and you answered it yourself:
Him: "How long before we are off your health insurance?"
You: "I can't remove you until there is a D decree."
Not think about this from his perspective. Oh, if I D her then I lose my health insurace. Yeah, I should run right out and file! LOL Cake eating all the way. Open enrollment is coming soon (usually the end of the year). Drop him from your health insurance like a bad habit! You don't need a D decree to drop him during open enrollment.
Also, he has no incentive to move forward with D because you are still his plan B. All of what you said above. The hugging him goodbye, the telling him you love him. The losing your composure as he moved out. All of that is a huge shining neon sign over your head that tells him "YOU CAN STILL HAVE HER ANYTIME YOU WANT HER!" The exact WRONG message to send. That is what detachment is about. It tells the WAS "I am moving on, with or without you." You've not shown him that at all! Oh I know you told him you didn't want him there if he wasn't working on the marriage, but guess what? Your ACTIONS have shown him otherwise. He knows you'd kill to have him back in the house. He isn't seeing you move on at all. Trust me, read other people's sitches, what you do or don't do gets back to him. This is why GAL is sooooooooooo important.
Go out and do new things. Do all the things you've always wanted to do! Skydive! Bungee jump! Take up archery. ANYTHING that shows him you are not going to work, coming home, and sitting there waiting for him to come back home.
Finally, yes you are limbo. As in 95% of WAS sitches, the LBS is the one that ends up having to file. You said that was the case in his first marriage. (By the way, it might be helpful for you to share more about that. When did he leave his W, when was their D final. When did you come into the picture? If you weren't there before all of that was there someone else that was?) And guess what, this turd of a spineless worm isn't ever going to do the right thing and do the dirty work of ending your marriage. The only time he will is IF and WHEN he wants to marry this 22 yo airhead. Or the next Plan A that comes along. Bottom line, he has no incentive right now to cut lose his plan B. So give him a shove, starting with dropping him from the insurance as soon as you can. GAL like a madwoman. Detaching so that you aren't so on the hook, counting the time between communication.
Essentially, pull yourself up by your bootstraps and take control of your life!
P.S. I sure which my W was like so many of you LBSs! So attached that I could get away with anything. If she went out of town and I had a 22 yo chick over, even just for dinner, she'd kick my butt to the curb faster than you could say "file for D". It must be nice to be your H and be teflon.
Thanks Steve!!
I am guilty - haven't finished book. That is next priority on my list. As I said, I took a bit of a "break" from everything DB to try and keep myself sane as I dealt with the initial shock.
I definitely knew contacting OW wouldn't stop him from doing anything from her. Even though I know I said it would be a good idea if she stayed out of it, I actually honestly didn't expect that. For me, it was more just to let her know I knew, and just in case he was telling her anything different about our sitch (like claiming we're in the middle of divorce when he hasn't filed, for instance..). I know it doesn't change her or him or anything, that's one thing I'm very clear on.
I think the remorse part is coming in because yeah, I absolutely want validation from him that our relationship was something he values and that whatever he's doing was a mistake due to whatever he's dealing with personally. There's been a ton of investment in this for me to where just because something is broken doesn't mean I wouldn't want to try to work on it.
Please note, this does NOT mean he would just be able to come walking back in and everything would be back to normal as long as he gives a good "excuse". As much as I want him back, I would absolutely require him to take good, hard look at what we need to work on both individually and together, and it would be a LOT of work to rebuild trust and connection and all of that. But ultimately, if he wanted to do it and shared authentically what may have led him to do this to begin with (being depressed or MLC issues or whatever it is, which I do really think is part of the issue here), I would like to think of myself as a truly committed and supportive wife rather than someone who would just say "great, I forgive you but I'm not going to be committed to you anymore." Unless in all cases like this it's never truly just a "mistake" and we should all give up as soon as these things happen? I get part of your point but not all here, and I want to be sure to emphasize that it would not just be "I'm sorry" to make things right again.
I did check the auto insurance, twice. They keep telling me they can separate the accounts and billing but because we're still married, my name would still be attached to his. Meaning if he doesn't pay, it could still impact my credit or I could be held responsible. I thought this was weird too but that's what they told me, twice. Not sure if it has to do with state laws (TX is a community property state). But I'd rather make sure it's getting paid if that's the case.
In terms of the cake eating, I did think about that but he was still acting like this before he knew he wouldn't be dropped from insurance. Also, this is where my therapist comes into play because I told her I didn't want to get upset at him leaving and I felt stupid about how I was acting, but she essentially told me that as long as I don't have an expectation that it will change anything, not to be hard on myself because it's just my way of saying goodbye or whatever. That did make me feel better about it but I see how that's more moving towards acceptance of the status quo rather than trying to DB. Mentally that's just a hard balance to keep.
Ever since him moving out though, I feel I've been doing pretty good GALing and not falling back to try to engage with him on anything, except for those very intermittent, practical things like asking if he'll give me his portion of money for the insurance.
For his prior divorce, I do remember him telling me about it as we were initially getting together, and I did look up the records to confirm it was in process. We also had worked together at one point and other coworkers did corroborate his characterization of the ex and the issues they had (her being bipolar or something like that). But in any case, there was a time when we were "seeing" each other (it was not hot and heavy like it seems to be with his gal pal now because I guess I have a bit more dignity) where his prior divorce was not final. That being said, it just occurred to me this morning that actually there did seem to be another person he was with before me, after separating from his wife but I presume before the filing occurred giving the timeline...so yeah.
I'm totally on board with this probably being his default behavior and cycle... which does make me feel really stupid and duped for the past 10 years but it's just so hard to understand how you can feel like you have a "normal" relationship for that period of time just for someone to pull the rug out one day and show you that actually no, it wasn't anything different. My ability to trust other people, because of my apparent lack of ability to see whatever signs I missed here, or I guess perhaps the lack of impact my commitment has despite the signs, is a huge struggle.
I think I'm just trying to protect myself from being too traumatized by the realization that someone I think is a good person deep down may really not be, and that there's a more logical explanation. I don't want this to taint my view of the world forever and it has really scared me, to be honest! I feel like even after all this is done, I won't want to ever date again, and I know that's kind of common but it's the strangest, most vulnerable feeling.
I'll try again with the insurance and open enrollment has come for us but that's another thing that I'm pretty sure when I called earlier I was told I could not do without a decree or without some other proof that he has alternate insurance. I believe this is related to laws to prevent people from "surprising" someone else and suddenly dropping them without legal reason. But will do everything I can to confirm because I do agree and want to get that sorted!
Aside from those items... do I then just continue with no contact and GALing.... until (if/when) it seems either it's working, or that that's not working and has gone on too long that I decide fully that I do want the divorce? Is that pretty much the fork in the road that everyone comes to at this point?
Re: the teflon comment - trust me, I had envisioned all of the things I would do if I ever were put in a situation like this, before it happened. It's really weird how in the moment it's different, based on the shock and hurt and questions you have and everything else. Like I said, it's a lot of trying to make sense of a situation that I do know I may never get answers to or fully understand. But I am trying not to be hard on myself for not reacting "correctly" because man is it the worst, most confusing feeling, and given the other lies that happened leading up to it I just felt like I was in the matrix for a while. However, I do understand the logic of how to react now, and will be doing my best to follow that path (and finish the book..)
So for the car insurance, just get new policies with another carrier, then drop the current carrier. People do it all the time. They told you that because they want to get paid, and they know he probably won't pay.
A lot of what you said makes sense, but I think you would have been in such better place if you had kept DBing, kept reading the book, kept posting here, getting advice along the way. We could have kept you potentially from contacts the OW. We could have helped you through the move, etc. Water under the bridge.
One thing about DBing is that you forget yesterday and move forward today! So start DBing now. And yes, most LBS have to come to the decision to remain in limbo, or to file. General rule is give it a year from the original BD. Most of the time you can then move forward with filing for D with a clean conscience that you gave him plenty of time to "come to himself". But this turd of a coward probably will be unwilling to do the actual filing, and moving the D along. That will more than likely fall to you if it comes to that.
Keep posting! WE are here to help and support!
Wow what a crazy tale that is. Well, let's get to the crux of it- your H is actively having an affair. Your H is unlikely to file for D not because he is leaving the door open to recon, but because he's in bad shape financially and wants financial support from you in the form of insurance and who knows what else. So where does that leave you? Personally whenever I read sitches about women dealing with an adulterous, lying WAH my advice is always the same- tough love is the ONLY approach to take. NO cake-eating. NO sleeping with him, or letting him hang out or long talks on the phone, or chummy chats. Cut all but required contact. Make the house off limits to him. Let him know you are NOT playing his games or taking his crap. I would even suggest as Steve did that you cut him off your insurance at the earliest opportunity.
First words out of his mouth were, "First of all, we're getting a divorce." Interesting, given even AS WE SPEAK he has (still) not filed. It's been since May that he first swore he wanted a divorce
In other words, "I'm single and can do whatever the hell I want." To him you're already D'd, the paperwork is just a formality. I don't really know what you hoped to gain by continuing the convo after that, I guess you were hoping for a heartfelt apology but you've got to understand, you are NOT going to get it. If anything he'll find reasons to blame YOU for his affair. You didn't love him enough, or give him enough sex, or clean house enough, or hang the towels in the bathroom right. IT'S ALL YOUR FAULT!! THAT is his mindset. All you can do is leave him to this ridiculous mess he's making. Get out. GAL. Leave him alone. Focus on you.
By the way I guess you know you can't believe anything he says. If his lips are a-movin' he's a-lyin'. Just remember that.
I text him, ask if he's aware of the message, he says he is not. I ask for him to call. He says he wants to know what's going on. I just say "me too". When we finally speak, I tell him I know he hasn't told me the full truth, that I AM being made a fool of and at this point he just needs to be completely honest with me.
OK well we would have advised you against 90% of what you did, but it's water under the bridge at this point. No more of this though, you're just adding insult to your own injury. You know he's a lying cheater, there's nothing more to learn or explore about that, right?
And financially, I don't know WHAT he's up to. So while I don't want to file, I feel I will need to file sooner rather than later whether I'm ready or not just to protect myself in case he's deciding to go run up a bunch of debt with OW or something!
You are absolutely right and you are at greater risk of this then you may realize. Take action IMMEDIATELY. Talk to a L, explain everything and determine a course of action. It doesn't necessarily mean D, but you do need to make sure you are financially protected because the next time you see him he may very well be in a 2019 Corvette convertible. Even if he doesn't saddle you with that payment you are still paying his car insurance! He may do things to be hurtful and hateful, or maybe just because he thinks he "deserves" a new car, a 5000 dollar suit or a nice cruise with his GF (or all of the above). Seriously I've heart it all in my time here, if he's MLC there's no limits to the potential insanity.
Sorry about everything that has happened. Sometimes we go a few weeks with no change, then everything happens in a day or two.
Gotta let him go, quit putting a nice landing area for him. No more I love you's, I miss you's, etc. Don't be his plan B. Don't allow cake eating.
GAL means go start a new life. Move forward and enjoy every day! You never know which could be your last so live like it!
NO cake-eating. NO sleeping with him, or letting him hang out or long talks on the phone, or chummy chats.
Yeah, none of this has been happening for like a month now. He's not even trying to come to the house so that's not an issue, and definitely trying to figure out the insurance thing.
I don't really know what you hoped to gain by continuing the convo after that, I guess you were hoping for a heartfelt apology but you've got to understand, you are NOT going to get it.
I think either way I would have needed to confront him, otherwise I really didn't have any proof/validation of what happened. That's what I wanted to gain, and I only got that from him admitting it based on the clues I had and the way I positioned it as me "knowing", police style I guess, to get his confession even though I really didn't know. Sure there were other clues and the credit card but that still didn't validate what happened in my home, and we all know if I had acted before any of that based on a "hunch" it would have gotten turned around on me even worse, with the added disadvantage that I didn't have anything to back myself up. At least this way when he initially tried to backtrack from his guilt and turn some of it on me, I knew with more confidence that it truly wasn't my issue at that point, even if he hadn't told me everything in full. I think I would have questioned myself a lot more and had a harder time setting boundaries if I hadn't gotten that confirmation, or some other hard evidence some other way. Now he knows I know the truth rather than the made-up story he's been telling me (and himself), and I think it was important for him to see the pain that caused instead of continuing to protect himself from the impact his actions had on me.
I had asked him why he did all this and continued to lie and turn things on me before if I was really right, and in typical contradictory fashion he just said he didn't want to hurt me, which I know just means he was guilty and didn't want to own up to it for the sake of his own ego.
All this being said, my prior comments about him being avoidant, etc. continue to come back here, and I do realize that no matter how much is "proven" to him or how much he is put face to face with his own demons, he may never come around to change anything. Despite all the hope I try to keep alive, I don't think I'd be completely surprised at this point if he didn't.
It baffles me how people can go from a stable life to making such terrible choices and it does bring more insecurity than I'd like to admit because I start to think, wow, am I horrible to be around? Am I actually a bad wife? Of all the things he could be dealing with, was there really nothing he cared about losing in our relationship? The logical thoughts and these feelings living in parallel to each other are a nightmare.
Also, the fact that it seems this happens more frequently than I ever thought has me super scared and pessimistic about long-term relationships and whether they are even possible in reality. I know that's a whooole other thread but given what's happened to me, I'm doing that thing where it's like, well, if this doesn't match my understanding of the world, maybe my understanding of how the world should be is wrong (loving, long-term monogamous relationships where men do have a deep emotional attachment and commitment to their wives). I say that because what I've been hearing more and more about PAs with men is that they apparently really don't have capacity (not my words and something I'd like not to believe) to understand the importance of doing such a thing and the devastation it causes. "Sex is sex" and they don't really see a difference who they do it with. I really hope that's hogwash, but just laying it out there and what I've been trying to work through in my mind with all of this. Fun times.
OK well we would have advised you against 90% of what you did, but it's water under the bridge at this point. No more of this though, you're just adding insult to your own injury. You know he's a lying cheater, there's nothing more to learn or explore about that, right?
Point noted. I'm sorry guys... I will do my best to be better even though I guess what's being said here is maybe some things would have been different already had I not done some things. Would be much easier if there were little DB angels on my shoulder at all times!
It doesn't necessarily mean D, but you do need to make sure you are financially protected
I don't know what other option there would be besides filing in order to be financially protected. TX doesn't recognize formal separation. Are there other ways? As a side note, we agreed not to get lawyers involved in terms of drafting a decree - we already decided how we would split stuff and would like not to spend thousands of dollars for someone else to decide if we can. I know that doesn't mean I can't go get legal advice regardless; I did talk to a lawyer before to confirm based on TX being community state, and they said as long as we agree on the split of debts and assets, a judge will approve unless it seems crazily off-balance which is rare. And I think it's highly unlikely he would change his mind and decide to hire a lawyer and fight me on things because I don't know where he'd get that money or to be honest, what else he would even want from me. Knowing him and his behavior, it WOULD surprise me if suddenly he lit a fire under that ,and I just don't think the ROI would be there. So yeah, it's mainly just any shared debt issues in terms of him not paying or defaulting to where a collector could come after me that I want to avoid.
Without filing for D and being prepared for the end to actually occur, I feel stuck between hell and somewhere even hotter, hah.
Sorry about everything that has happened. Sometimes we go a few weeks with no change, then everything happens in a day or two.
Gotta let him go, quit putting a nice landing area for him. No more I love you's, I miss you's, etc. Don't be his plan B. Don't allow cake eating.
GAL means go start a new life. Move forward and enjoy every day! You never know which could be your last so live like it!
Thanks overrnbw. Trying like crazy to keep this in mind. I do find myself enjoying things on my own without him, I just can't envision the rest of my life not sharing it with someone special. I love my friends dearly but I only have a few close ones and really thrive on having deep, meaningful relationships in my life vs. lots of acquaintances. So this has really been a deep cut in terms of what I envision a happy future to be.
Hi TJT, I'm so sorry to read of your situation. It sounds like things have been deteriorating for a while. There's still hope that your husband will have a change of heart if he sees you move on and become strong and independent on your own or if he's having an affair and it ends. I wish I could offer more that others haven't already offered - the thing that has helped me recently is focusing on my career. I hope you find your own unique way to cope that helps alleviate a bit of the suffering. I also wish so badly to share my life with someone special so I can relate to your comment about that.
Thank you Nicole. Work has definitely been great for me too. I find a lot of purpose there and have a fantastic team who has been really amazing and beyond supportive the past few months. Thanks for your words of encouragement and I hope it gets easier for you too!
he still, absolutely, 100%, does not seem to feel remorse.
Long running affairs are acts of anger -- he has built up a ton of resentment toward you, and since he's avoidant, he hasn't given voice to any of it or worked any of it through. I'm not saying you've done anything wrong, or that you deserve his resentment, it could be completely irrational, but the point is that it exists.
Once people have affairs, they *initially* feel guilty and will beat themselves up about it, but eventually self-protection takes over and they refuse to believe that they are bad people.
So if he's not a bad person, then the reason he did a bad thing must have been because *you* drove him to it, you made him do it, and therefore *you* are the bad person and he is the victim.
Once he gets there, he'll seek any evidence to reinforce his viewpoint and will reject anything that contradicts it. That's why he will vilify you and nothing you do will be good. You simply can't win because he's an expert at confirmation bias at this point.
Virtually no one gets any real remorse -- the wayward spouse will feel sorry for themselves for "how you made them feel" about the affair, but they won't really feel remorse for their actions because they convince themselves that they were justified and that you were to blame.
Sorry TJT
Acc
Thanks Acc. I have basically come to this conclusion as well. While I know we are all biased about ourselves, I'm confident that my "sins" are nowhere near deserving of his treatment of me and whatever he is making it out to be in his head. But I do get that if that's what he's convinced himself of, he will believe it as fact and there's nothing I can do about it.
Lately I have been remembering little things here and there, just conversations we may have had where I said one thing or another that didn't seem like a big deal at the time (like simply disagreeing on our taste in something), but that now I think, "Oh, I'm sure that was a thing he didn't like." And of course, even though I had no idea and couldn't get him to open up, and those things certainly should not be basis for divorce in any case, I do catch myself thinking that it's my "fault" because of them.
It tears me apart knowing that I'm thinking these things while also being well aware that it's his behavior that's making me feel bad about and question myself. And it's not because I don't think I shouldn't be the one to do any changing, but because I KNOW I had tried to understand and improve what I could so many times, only for it to be ignored, as you say. It's like he was building this case against me for so long, and I just don't know why he invested so much of his energy in that instead of growth (million dollar question). In fact, I recall a conversation I had with him where I directly said that it seems like I can praise him for 10 things but the one thing I disagree with him on he will take SO personally. I can't remember his full response, but I do remember he generally agreed with me that that was his response pattern!
Based on what I've read in other people's sitches, I have to say I feel like mine is pretty far gone. Aside from his inaction on the D and general lack of concern/attention when it comes to loose ends, I don't feel like there's anything left on the other side since he has moved out, or that those things are an attempt to manipulate. We've been NC for a month or more now. He never tries to text me. He never tries to come by the house. There's none of the "games" that I hear people talk about trying to get my attention and then pushing me away in a cycle. I'm slowly, slowwwly detaching, but I'm definitely resisting it mentally knowing that it will be the nail in the coffin for us if I manage to actually do it.
Part of me wants that freedom, and part of me wants to be that person that waits around for their one true love to get a clue and come back to them to live happily ever after even if it means years of holding out (definitely NOT what I want my life to be, but I hope you get my point). Then I think about all the things he's done and I ask myself, "IS THIS SERIOUSLY YOUR ONE TRUE LOVE?" at which point I realize the cocaine-effect of love on my brain and just try to encourage myself that if I can keep going long enough I will beat this addiction!!
I did get a change of address verification in the mail last week, but it didn't have the new address on it. I texted him to ask about the new address and to let him know that if any mail addressed to both of us accidentally gets forwarded, I need to know about it. I also let him know how much I'm paying each month for health insurance since it's open enrollment at work... he asked if I could simply not enroll them. I told him no, not unless he either has insurance offered by his job (which he doesn't) or I have a divorce decree. His response was to offer to pay me his portion of the benefits directly "until then". I didn't bother to ask when he was planning on "then" being.
I am certainly not obligated to put his son on my insurance, but I'd rather have him be covered than be married to his father, have something major happen, and then he has either no or very poor coverage through somewhere else with me still being legally responsible for half, if it came down to it.
Anyway though, it was a short and to the point exchange of texts. He seemed to have no problem handing over money for his portion of bills I'm still managing (not trying to cake eat), and there was nothing more to the conversation. I didn't try to get anything else out of him or act like I cared about anything else other than getting his contribution for what I'm still paying for. I didn't say thank you or anything after he agreed he would give his share. It was all business.
Before, I gave myself until the end of this month to decide whether or not I will file. I have extended my timeline to December, mostly because I have felt like I still need to "marinate" in everything that's happened and him being moved out, without thinking about logistics and taking action and getting things sorted out. It doesn't seem like it's been that long so even though it does feel pretty far gone and hopeless, I'm at least trying to give some extended length of time of truly being apart to see if it changes anything and for me to feel comfortable enough with the decision. That's the only hope I have left, albeit with very low expectations.
That's also when our anniversary is, and I figure if that goes by without any change in the sitch, it may put enough fire under me to say screw it and file. I'm pretty sure I already know what that outcome will be. Again I just feel like I've never heard of someone being so self-convinced of an alternate reality than this man seems to be, especially given the good times the relationship had. To be able to push those parts out and be so absorbed in himself and this sudden danger he's protecting himself from seems to be legitimately crazy the more I think about it. I can't help but wonder if there's truly something that can't be done in these cases to get people to see the flaws in their minds, or if it's more like a disease with no cure that some people will just succumb to without any chance of changing that.
So I just try to remind myself that these things happen. People go crazy. Accidents happen (speaking of, I had a VERY close call with the other day with someone who didn't look both ways before pulling out into an intersection - my dog was in the car, I don't know how I managed to get out of the way fast enough, but given everything that's going on in my life already it really shook me up and just scared me even more to be reminded yet again of how helpless and vulnerable I am!)
And that [censored] the worst, knowing that ultimately we don't really have the final say in what comes of it, especially the one thing that you thought you'd always be able to count on when anything else goes wrong. And aside from that aspect, it was the first time I realized that if I HAD gotten into an accident, I wouldn't have my husband to come see me in the hospital, or come to my funeral if I had died. It would just be one more thing that really sucked for me and was of no consequence to him. And that hurt and upset me in a whole new way.
Lately I have been remembering little things here and there, just conversations we may have had where I said one thing or another that didn't seem like a big deal at the time (like simply disagreeing on our taste in something), but that now I think, "Oh, I'm sure that was a thing he didn't like." And of course, even though I had no idea and couldn't get him to open up, and those things certainly should not be basis for divorce in any case, I do catch myself thinking that it's my "fault" because of them.
This is a very common thing to do. The rug was yanked out from under you! When that happens its very destabilizing -- it came without warning and completely upended your life.
Your brain wants to go back and figure out what you did to deserve it. Your brain wants to say "Ah ha! I pulled that lever and that's why the trap door opened"
If you can find that "ah ha" moment, then you can avoid ever pulling that lever again and feel "safe" again that you can trust people in relationships.
That's why you're scanning history and wondering what you're to blame for. You're trying to build a simple cause and effect model of the world so you can navigate safely going forward.
Unfortunately, these are not simple cause and effect scenarios, so all this historical searching does is beat yourself up and harm your self esteem.
You need to mentally let go of the handlebars, surrender to the fact that "this happened" and accept that you may not ever be able to explain the "why" behind it.
That takes a lot of time to process, but once you get there it will free you.
Acc is dead on with this. TJT, you could have done everything right and still ended up here. There is no guarantee of long-term wedded bliss in this life! So many factors play into these things, it is impossible to know what would be different if you were different. Maybe he would have hated having someone that always agreed with him! (Believe it or not that is a fairly common complaint. "He/She never had their own opinions."
While I am an advocate of assessing what you could do better, the balance is to not fall into the trap Acc is discussing. 180ing on bad behavior (in my sitch I had a lot, things like being controlling, being overly critical, etc) is essential, but beating yourself up and making yourself believe that "if only I hadn't done this, we'd still be happy" is counter-productive.
Marriage is 50-50. Own your 50%, but do not take the blame for his 50%.
Again I just feel like I've never heard of someone being so self-convinced of an alternate reality than this man seems to be, especially given the good times the relationship had. To be able to push those parts out and be so absorbed in himself and this sudden danger he's protecting himself from seems to be legitimately crazy the more I think about it. I can't help but wonder if there's truly something that can't be done in these cases to get people to see the flaws in their minds, or if it's more like a disease with no cure that some people will just succumb to without any chance of changing that.
Although it feels like your H is "the worst" example of this, everyone feels that way really. Everyone believes their sitch is exceptional and worse than others they read.
During my time on the board people were talking about this as alien possession, as if a space alien came down and is now possessing the body of your H. Often the change in personality is that extreme.
Its like a form of self-hypnosis that is done in the interest of self-preservation. The root of it, really, is guilt, and knowing that he's done bad things.
That is 100% the basis of "act as if"
If you've got a wayward who is acting this extreme due to his sense of guilt, then what happens if he sees you acting sad, or making statements about how upset you are? That makes his guilt worse! Then he has to hypnotize himself even MORE to protect himself.
Then, if you pursue him and he has to continue to reject you, he feels even MORE guilty, and then he has to hypnotize himself even MORE to protect himself.
It creates this giant wall around him and each time a DB'er backslides and pursues, another brick gets stacked up on the wall.
So if you "act as if", and appear happy, upbeat, and like you're unaffected by his actions, then you are NOT exacerbating his guilt.
You're removing the consequences associated with being around you.
Over time, it makes it safe for him to begin dismantling the wall, because its no longer really protecting him from anything.
At that point, the wayward has the space and freedom to FINALLY do some introspection, and then they begin to realize that maybe it was not "always bad" and maybe, just maybe, they ALSO contributed to how things ended up, etc. etc.
Unfortunately, in many cases, that space isn't really granted until the LBS has fully moved on. So giving the appearance of having moved on emotionally is what "act as if" is all about, its about accelerating that wall-desconstructing phase. It takes a ton of discipline to pull if off in a compelling way, but that's why we do it.
Acc
Thanks Steve & Acc.
An interesting "advancement" has occurred since my last post. I am still able to see my husband's online calendar (we shared them a long time back). As the calendar flipped to November, I opened it on my phone today and noticed later this month an entry that says, "1 year, HOLY S***!!!!!".
I couldn't figure out what would be 1 year ago from a date in November this year, or why the reaction would so emphatic in any case. We were in the middle of building our house so I know it wasn't a job anniversary (and again the reaction wouldn't seem to match if that was it). Pretty sure he wasn't a drug addict going 1 year sober. Of course I had an inkling as to what it was, but I said to myself, let's scroll back to one year ago and see what was there on the calendar.
And guess where I was???
On a business trip. Definitely not home.
I think I found my anger.
I feel like some people won't think this really changes much, but for me it gives a valuable new perspective, having an additional piece of validation (feels stupid to even call it that) that this really WASN'T just a short-term thing (which I suspected but didn't know for how long). And then, now knowing how long, that it was happening exactly at the times where I was trying to ask my H what was wrong...and to please come sleep in the room with me...writing him long letters telling him how much I wanted to choose him even if we don't always get along...asking him if he was sure he wanted to go through with the house if he felt unhappy and him completely downplaying and acting like if we still were having problems in 5 years it would be more of an issue. Going on our anniversary dinner a month from that date last year only to have him texting almost the entire time. (He told me it was people at work needing something from him...now I can just imagine him texting his hussy and joking about what a terrible time he must be having with his miserable wife at dinner)..
My mother suggested he dragged it out to take advantage of me and the extra money it afforded him during this time. But we ended up both deciding that didn't make sense because ALL the money he was saving by being with me he totally, 100% LOST in the house. It completely cleared out the savings that was completely in an account only under his name! So WHY would he do that?? It leaves more questions.
But I feel like it answers a few, too. This is a man who had time realize if his escapade was just something he would feel bad about later. He had time to try to work on things with me if he really wanted, while I was clearly trying, and he chose not to. Granted, seems like it wasn't a full time relationship for a full year (unless I'm seriously WAY more blind than I thought) - but if it was so much ongoing/serious, and if they both seemed so sure that they really didn't want to be with their respective SOs (vs. wanting the best of both worlds) you would think at LEAST with something as major as a house that my H would have found even some other excuse to not go forward with it. I mean I had practically opened up the conversation for him to back out of it myself!!
Part of me wonders if despite his attitude and what he's saying NOW, if he really did question his side relationship the whole time and that's the reason for the ambivalence.
I know nobody will ever know but him. And regardless, it has prompted me to say wow... to your point Steve...there is definitely much of this, probably more than I even thought, that is NOT me (and I say that as responsibly as possible).
And I have further questioned myself, even if he came back to me right at this moment... whether I even know enough about this man to be able to be confident in MY capacity to "re-marry" him. It seems he would have to completely change as a PERSON. This has made me feel like this is more of a personal flaw in how he handles life than just a fleeting phase in his identity. I want to think the latter but that's because I don't want it to be true.
I feel like this has given me a good knock on the head to show that I am possibly holding on to hope that, while perhaps it exists, is SO small, and SO unlikely, that it will only do me more harm than good and is just fooling myself to keep "leaning" on it and holding myself in limbo while he's clearly doing whatever.
I have validated to myself that the only reason I have not filed for D myself is because I haven't let him go. Yet as a result of this information, I WANT to more than ever. The logical side of me is tailing my every move, wondering when I will have enough. I just question whether I can actually let go without actually filing for D - it falls absolutely in line with what you are saying, Acc, that I don't feel like I could really give him that space until I've ACTUALLY moved on and don't want the marriage anymore. I don't see myself being able to truly GAL and move on not caring or thinking about him in relation to my actions until we are not actually married anymore. Because that's the NORMAL way to think, right?? And yes it's ironic because we all know that he obviously thinks absolutely nothing about that annoying detail... and apparently neither does his gal pal!!
So after all of this I went into a reactive spiral of anger, almost immediately going to file online and thinking of how I could let him know that I know. Text him and just tell him to call me so I can say it straight up?? Wish him happy anniversary on the day he has on the calendar?? Don't worry - I realized just as quickly that was NOT the answer. He doesn't care. And as much as I want to call him out and "prove" myself to him, I've learned my lesson at this point that - as Accu has said - it will only re-validate his own story line.
But then I thought to myself, do I care????
I feel like that thought and feeling alone (albeit a shaky, fleeting one) was a great first step toward actually letting go/detaching that I haven't had up to this point.
Regardless, I did realize that whether I care or not (i.e. whether I want to try to "change his mind" or keep DBing or not), putting my energy into letting him know would not be worth it. I mean, HE already knows what he's done. He will go to his grave with it all. And if I don't matter then I don't matter. Whether I care that I matter to him or not doesn't make a difference.
All that being said, I still don't know if I should wait longer for some reason. I certainly don't want to waste my time knowing what I know and that there's already been much more time passed than I thought, but also circumstances have changed in our relationship more recently causing some major shifts obviously that he hasn't had to deal with before.
I don't know if that's just another excuse to keep serving my own glimmers of hope as described earlier, or something really worth holding out on. I know nobody has that answer, but I'm just feeling the chances seem pretty slim and rather than thinking of this as something he might "snap out of", I am more starting to think of it as "maybe this is just WHO HE IS", that I couldn't see before, and obviously it would be unreasonable to think anything I do would ever change that - just like you all have said.
Basically yeah, I don't want to sabotage the potential opportunity to GAL and turn this around...but if it's also possible, and seems more likely, that nothing I do will matter, then even if it still hurts I can't help but wonder if I just need to file, push through the pain it causes me, and call it a day. Up to now I have sort of felt like not filing for D would make it easier for him to change his mind, but if he doesn't seem to think anything of being married to me right now, that logic doesn't make sense. And if he were ever to change his mind later, then NOT still being married to me would similarly not matter to him in attempting to reconcile. Why should I be afraid of just doing it then? Clearly I am expecting him to be thinking about this in a "healthy" way with more sensibility in which me filing for divorce would mean more to him. But that's simply not the case, point blank. And in this case I even would ask, if filing for D would HELP potentially turn it around, if it would seem like an action in his mind that shows I am moving on. But I fear it will also simply validate his own story and feel better about it all if he can tell himself "see, she wants a D finally too, phew!"
I am 100% afraid of letting him go because of ME, not him, and what you've said Acc . I know that once I make that decision to "stop trying" if you will, it may be the nail in the coffin. Part of me thinks that would be fantastic. The other part of me hates the thought of giving up and feeling like neither of us really "won", as seems to be the case with most Ds. I just don't know if I'm strong enough to be someone who can act "as if". I am disappointed in that but I honestly feel like it can get unhealthy at some point to continue trying to "act" than to actually be.
Ultimately, I really am leaning more strongly toward filing sooner rather than later. But I wholeheartedly admit that it will still upset me and that it's still not what I feel I truly want the outcome to be. Yet, in summary, I know sometimes the best choice is not always the one we like. I just want to hear from you all what difference any of this makes from your perspective... and hopefully get a little sleep before re-evaluating this in the morning.
Happy weekend...
Journaling
I woke up feeling even crazier this morning. Very sad, wishing I could just message him and tell him how much I love him and want him to come home and just love each other!! Not even thinking about doing it, I just hate the feeling..
Also thinking crazy things like maybe I should try to engage with him in ways that make him feel needed, just to at least create the opportunity to show him any changes. Like asking if he can help with something with the house, but not in a desperate way...
I’m just feeling SUPER helpless and SUPER sad and fighting things hard today. Feeling like if don’t create an opportunity there will be none. The cycle of emotions has kicked back up as my brain went crazy again after what I learned yesterday. I made the mistake of going back and looking at our text messages from a year ago and remembered there was a time around then he was asking for “space”. Again there is a ton of proof of me trying to be supportive and tell him I love him and want him to be happy, etc. We had loving exchanges between the both of us. It seemed he was excited about our house being built. And yet there are also many examples of him working late, me asking if we could do something together, etc. So I feel even more confused and sad about what the hell went wrong and feeling like we could still be together if I just knew WHY he felt there was no other way!
I have plans to GAL today and it’s been really hard to drag myself out of bed this morning and feel excited about it. But I am still going to try. I just want off this roller coaster. I want to be happy again and loved again.
TJT,
You need to up your detachment efforts. You can control your thoughts, feelings, and actions. You can’t control his.
If you decide to file that doesn’t have to be the end. I believe Steve has said in many threads even D doesn’t mean the end of a relationship. That’s how I’m approaching my sitch now. I requested to push to complete my D a couple weeks back....and now crickets from my WAW. I’ve only upped my DB efforts since I had one of my life’s true pivot events and I am finally starting to see an impact after 5 months of DB’ing. I still fully expect my D to happen...but I also believe that karma is a real thing and I do see my W flailing. I see a scared little girl who’s now lost under the facade she has fronted since BD. Heck when I had to interact with W earlier this week, she actually made the statement “Your getting everything and I’m getting nothing”...WTH?? I saw right through her logic and attempt to justify the position she has put herself in due to her choices. She’s the one that left, wanted the d, etc al. Yet I’m somehow at fault in her eyes...
I believe you know the answer as to file or not...but you can construe that if you in fact do...it in itself is an action.
You got this!
TJT
I think you are and I are at a similar place in our 'journey' I too have days where I struggle to be bothered to put one foot in front of the other and days where I'm ready to take control and sort this out once and for all. I think it's a natural reaction. I've decided that for me it is too soon to make monumental decisions and so I only make the ones that have to be made. I will have to sell the house, but we needed to downsize anyway. I won't be filing for divorce because I'm not ready.
I still have hope, the tiniest tiniest glimmer that things might work out. But more importantly I'm giving myself time to come to terms with a huge change after 27 years of marriage. I refuse to let him hurry me and I refuse to hurry myself.
I am certain that I will know when all hope has gone and am ready to divorce, so I just give myself the luxury of time.
You've just found out another upsetting part to your story. It's too soon to act on it. Give yourself time to absorb and process it rather than react to it. Eventually, I think our days when we feel crazy and manic will become fewer and fewer and that shows strength and healing.
TJT,
You need to up your detachment efforts. You can control your thoughts, feelings, and actions. You can’t control his.
It makes sense in theory but it's definitely taking some practice! I am really NOT feeling like I can control my feelings, thoughts are a close second. I'm good controlling my actions but the first two make it a lot more confusing and end up just keeping me in limbo with INaction. Which, I guess is where I've accepted I need to be until I can master the other two and be sure any decisions I do make are something I'm good with.
It just goes back to how my inaction could be perceived, I guess. What's gotten really confusing to me is it's obvious that DBing plays a lot into psychology and what influences people, and while there are definitely some general behaviors across the board that we know are detrimental, I also feel like each individual has tendencies that need to be taken into account, or maybe even things we just don't understand. As a result, since our own default behaviors likely don't match what will work in these cases, it seems that by default we MUST think about them and their reaction to things, because otherwise we'd constantly be messing up.
So this balance of "stop thinking about him" yet "don't do the things that will mess this up" can get really confusing. That's what got me into the whole debate about whether I should file or not. It seems in some situations it's a good push, while in others it become justification for the WAS that the other person is now on the same page as them. But if I don't push, doesn't that continue to make me look desperate and sad, that he knows he's done all of this to me and yet I won't file either? How will I EVER know which way is better? So what I'm more paranoid about is not necessarily what he's doing or thinking per se, but just more around self-sabotaging any little opportunity that may be there, by simply not knowing what the opportunity is.
I don't know if this is making any sense, but I just feel like everyone else understands what to do much more clearly than I do. Or at least feels that there IS a way when I feel like there may not be.
EZ, what was your recent "pivot" moment?
I am certain that I will know when all hope has gone and am ready to divorce, so I just give myself the luxury of time.
This is essentially where I've ended back up after a few days...and I'm also taking into consideration/realizing that as long as we stay married, he's going to be limited in his ability to truly move on with HIS life, at least logistically, mostly because of the fact that he won't have any documentation about not being responsible for the house if neither of us file. So if he is planning on getting a new vehicle or getting a new place or anything, the mortgage on his credit is going to make those kinds of things pretty difficult based on his income...and he will be forced to either file, change his mind to work together again, or else live in a very limited way. At least that's what it seems like to me. Also, not sure how we'll handle it when tax time comes if we're still married...that's another thing to start thinking about in a few months. ugh.
But also, yes, I agree with you Yorkie and I'm glad you shared your feelings at this point too. I don't want to rush myself either, and as much as I'm afraid that that makes me look desperate and sad in his eyes, I know if I start to think about filing and I get super panicked about it, it's probably not the time.
[quote=TJT][quote=EZdozit]TJT,
EZ, what was your recent "pivot" moment?
TJT - I had a bogus legal situation that had been hanging over my head for 3 years thrown out and dismissed. In large part...the primary catalyst which led my w to become WAS. Since she found out...a marked difference has occurred in her behavior...but so much damage has been done....it has become something of an internal battle. My walls remain firmly up....but may take a peak over the top as things progress.
I get your internal struggle...I feel like you will truly know when you need to. At the very least, continue to use the time afforded you to be AWOAFWL!
Wow, that's good to hear it's finally resolved but definitely [censored] that it contributed to your sitch like it did.
Thanks for the encouragement, I'll certainly keep trying!
Today I had a generally good day of feeling a lot more stable, especially relative to the weekend. Well, aside from the HOA dues coming in the mail! This is one of those things I feel like I should ask my H to pay half of, since he's technically still on the title and won't do anything to move things forward otherwise. If he's still entitled to the house, he should still be responsible for the cost of where it sits! But I mean, like that's gonna make him want to come back.
And guess where I was??? On a business trip. Definitely not home. I think I found my anger.
TJT, you're entering a new phase with this information but please remember it may not mean what you think it means. When our spouses are not faithful, our brains will fill in the
worst possible interpretations of any "evidence" that we find. In my case, my W had messaged her affair partner "you asked for what you want and you got it" which I took to mean some kind of lurid sex act, but what it really meant was that they had an office birthday party for him and he requested chocolate cupcakes. In this case, you really don't know what that one year quote was in reference to, it literally could be anything. Please just keep that in mind as you go forward, your imagination is your own worst enemy.
I feel like this has given me a good knock on the head to show that I am possibly holding on to hope that, while perhaps it exists, is SO small, and SO unlikely, that it will only do me more harm than good and is just fooling myself to keep "leaning" on it and holding myself in limbo while he's clearly doing whatever.
Your course of action should be driven by what you want to do, not how he will react to it. Does that make sense? This has everything to do with you and how you want to live your life.
It is, however, useful to think about this. When we're married, we're married to three people really: (1) the person we thought our spouse was when we married them, (2) the person our spouse actually is now, and (3) the person we want our spouses to be in the future.
Unfortunately, many people see (1) and (3) much more clearly than (2), because (1) & (3) are all about us and not that much about them. If you are, or have been, "married to hope" it really can be valuable to step back and really think about "who this person is" based on what they've *done* in your marriage (not just the bad stuff), versus what they've said. What they've done, or "how they've shown up" in the marriage in the past is the best indication of how they will show up in the future. People *can* change, and the balance between you, or how you come together can change, but there's an enormous amount of inertia that must be overcome with a tremendous amount of motivation. Does he have that motivation to change things? Will he?
Regardless, I did realize that whether I care or not (i.e. whether I want to try to "change his mind" or keep DBing or not), putting my energy into letting him know would not be worth it. I mean, HE already knows what he's done. He will go to his grave with it all. And if I don't matter then I don't matter. Whether I care that I matter to him or not doesn't make a difference.
This is an excellent insight and you should pat yourself on the back for seeing things this way and understanding what that means. Live the life you want to live. Live a life anyone would admire. That's the best thing you can do. If you do that, it really doesn't matter what he decides to do or what he thinks.
I am more starting to think of it as "maybe this is just WHO HE IS", that I couldn't see before, and obviously it would be unreasonable to think anything I do would ever change that - just like you all have said.
Yes -- are you holding on to "who he is", or are you holding on to "who you have always wished he was" -- for many people there's a big difference.
I am 100% afraid of letting him go because of ME, not him
YES! 100%. He
represents stability, validation, and a resumption of your ability to have control over your future. That is really what you want, you want what he represents to you based on where you are right now. Step back and realize he is not those things.
If he came back tomorrow, you would not feel secure in your future with him, you would continue to struggle with validation because of how you feel about yourself due to the choices he's made, and those things combined would not allow you to feel good about your control over your future. Even if he was back you would spend some time feeling like you're leaning back in a chair that's close to falling over, and that's no way to live!
The healing process that YOU need to go through is pretty much the same whether he is in the picture or not. Your brain is trying to trick you into thinking that "getting him back" represents a shortcut to getting back to feeling how you used to feel. That shortcut does not exist. Your brain is deceiving you. You are at "square one" regardless of your future relationship with him, and you have to walk this journey *for you* no matter what he does.
Your brain needs to accept that there is not a quick win here -- there is not a path forward that doesn't totally s#ck. Embrace that and choose the path that's best for you right now, then change paths if it suits you.
The other part of me hates the thought of giving up and feeling like neither of us really "won", as seems to be the case with most Ds
That has NOTHING to do with him, and everything about you wanting to avoid feeling like you failed. Once again, even if he came back tomorrow you will need to process those feelings because of everything that's happened. Getting him back will not circumvent that. It just has to happen. You're right that typically everyone loses is D. The silver lining is coming out of it stronger, being more self-aware, with better relationship tools. That can be a real win for you in the future!
The cycle of emotions has kicked back up as my brain went crazy again after what I learned yesterday. I made the mistake of going back and looking at our text messages from a year ago and remembered there was a time around then he was asking for “space”. Again there is a ton of proof of me trying to be supportive and tell him I love him and want him to be happy, etc.
I wouldn't be responsible if I didn't admonish you with a "don't do that, you're only hurting yourself" but really I appreciate that its part of the process.
When I discovered that my exW was cheating on me I created a virtual storage locker of everything that I'd found, and for months after the fact I would go back and review it, review the timeline, re-read the detail, etc. It would rip the bandaids off and plunge me right back into total hurt. It was the equivalent of punching myself in the face and giving myself a black eye every once in a while. Why did I feel compelled to do that? I don't know, but eventually I stopped and I felt better. Not sure you can skip that part.
Good luck to you TJT, no matter which way this goes you *will* be fine, and you *will* be stronger than you were before. That much I know. Happiness awaits and you will go back to feeling loved and valued, either with H or with someone else. That much I know.
Acc
@Acc - thanks for the time you took in your reply. I really do appreciate that on principle alone, but also what you've said is helpful, even if it only seems to help little by little!
Quick update:
My dad came to visit for a long weekend and then as he left today I also flew out for another business trip.
The visit with my dad was okay. He helped me with some things around the house and even bought me some Christmas decorations (I wasn't planning to do anything). That said, in some ways I thought it would be better, like I would feel more "connected" having my family around, but I found that I just didn't feel like myself in some ways. It was definitely great to have plans and have someone to go out with each night for dinner, etc. but I also didn't totally feel like he fully understood what I am going through (he and my mother divorced, and of course they both try to compare the situation) and I think, perhaps a result of that, I felt like I suppressed talking about certain things. I also didn't want to make the visit a complete whine session on my part, knowing I could probably fill the entire weekend with just that.
So ultimately, I kind of felt like I was not being authentic, and while I did enjoy the "distraction" I also felt like I was sort of faking my way through it as if I was in a more stable state than I really am. There were times I wanted to be upset that I didn't let myself, etc. I guess that's no different than the other GAL activities, but I think it's also more reinforcement that when it comes to family, I don't feel really close to mine and in some ways it exacerbated the feeling of the loss of closeness with my husband.
Also, I did find more shared calendar info during the visit. It was an entry for someone's birthday party next weekend. On a whim I texted my H's gal pal's ex-boyfriend and he confirmed that the name was a child cousin of his ex who will be turning one. So it's seeming more and more likely that they are still seeing each other AND seems like he may even be meeting her family, which is super interesting to me because I just can't imagine how those conversations are going...how they met, what happened with her and her boyfriend (they were together for 4 years so not insignificant) and oh yeah, this guy is how old?
Anyway...back to your other comments, Acc:
what it really meant was that they had an office birthday party for him and he requested chocolate cupcakes. In this case, you really don't know what that one year quote was in reference to, it literally could be anything. Please just keep that in mind as you go forward, your imagination is your own worst enemy.
Yeah, I told myself the same thing, it just seems like the more I give him the benefit of the doubt, the more I find out that proves me wrong. At this point my intuitions, even those that I remember slightly having a year ago, seem to be winning here. But I get the reasoning either way. For the record though, I don't think I care at this point if it's a sex act or cupcakes! lol I've just been trying to get any validation that they are still seeing each other just so I know the situation on his side.
Your course of action should be driven by what you want to do, not how he will react to it. Does that make sense? This has everything to do with you and how you want to live your life.
It is, however, useful to think about this. When we're married, we're married to three people really: (1) the person we thought our spouse was when we married them, (2) the person our spouse actually is now, and (3) the person we want our spouses to be in the future.
It sort of makes sense...because I know I need to be happy with myself and my decisions, for sure. But at the same time it IS confusing because of how DBing teaches us to 180...so I'm always trying to determine what his current expectation is so that I can figure out what the "right" 180 is that might have the most impact. And that's made even MORE difficult since I'm dealing with someone who I know doesn't acknowledge, let alone make transparent, his true feelings or emotions that he's dealing with, and thus why in my last post I wrote about being so conflicted about whether his actions are really HIM or a symptom of something else.
Unfortunately, many people see (1) and (3) much more clearly than (2), because (1) & (3) are all about us and not that much about them. If you are, or have been, "married to hope" it really can be valuable to step back and really think about "who this person is" based on what they've *done* in your marriage (not just the bad stuff), versus what they've said. What they've done, or "how they've shown up" in the marriage in the past is the best indication of how they will show up in the future. People *can* change, and the balance between you, or how you come together can change, but there's an enormous amount of inertia that must be overcome with a tremendous amount of motivation. Does he have that motivation to change things? Will he?
I like how you put this, because I do feel like there are things I've ALWAYS "hoped" for the marriage that never came to be, and I have a hard time remembering that. BUT I think part of the reason is because he really has shown up in phenomenal ways in the past! Before the past year or so, and even still at times during the past year, he has done great things as a husband that DID meet my "expectations", if there's a positive way to even use that word. This is what puzzles me the most. I mean when we had just moved into the house, like JUST, we were in the garage looking out at the road, and he was listening to some music and a sweet song came on that he said always reminds him of me. He was still talking about the future together as if he was planning on being around for a while (and these were things I took specific note of and felt better about).
So I'm starting to think that the "answer" is somewhere in between... I think there are parts of him he hasn't ever fully let me see, even if there are parts of him that are great - and I think there are great parts of him that he is suffocating, for whatever reasons, and either changing or simply not holding true to his real values even if they are still there.
To your point, I know he'd have to want to change or change back in either case. It's just that knowing he has been a good husband before makes me feel like it's more possible than not, and I just wish there was something that could catalyze the realization in himself! I know it's not something for ME to "fix"...I just want to so badly because I WANT to see him grow and how much of a positive thing it could be to really put in that work vs. just avoiding or replacing or whatever. I care about him as a person and of course I'm biased in this situation as to what I think would be "best" for him, and I know that if he has to "learn" whatever I think he should learn in a different (albeit a potentially much harder way) then that's just how it is. I can't control his life or how he chooses to live it and I am working on accepting that as much as it [censored] and seems so stupid.
I am 100% afraid of letting him go because of ME, not him
YES! 100%. He
represents stability, validation, and a resumption of your ability to have control over your future. That is really what you want, you want what he represents to you based on where you are right now. Step back and realize he is not those things.
This may have been one of the most helpful perspectives yet. Thank you!!
If he came back tomorrow, you would not feel secure in your future with him, you would continue to struggle with validation because of how you feel about yourself due to the choices he's made, and those things combined would not allow you to feel good about your control over your future. Even if he was back you would spend some time feeling like you're leaning back in a chair that's close to falling over, and that's no way to live!
Yeah this is where I have this total fantasy in my head that even if came back, he'd be capable of fully, 500% understanding AND acting all the things he'd need to do to make me feel that security. I'm thinking of it in such a detached way from myself, but like not in the good sense of detachment, I don't think. Meaning, I'm thinking of this almost like he's a student (and NOT that I am the teacher, to be clear), but I feel like okay, he doesn't understand what he's going through, or how to deal with his feelings, or how to be emotionally vulnerable, etc. But if he learned those things or was working on learning those things actively, then I would feel better and empathize and not be so hurt by what he's done, because I'd know at that point it was just him not having a healthy understanding of certain things, vs. he's just a terrible person who doesn't care about my feelings.
I do get that even if that did happen, I can't predict how I would actually feel. And that how I think I would feel would likely not be the full reality. This is one more thing that confuses me about why I'm so intent on wanting to make this work, because I definitely don't want to live in doubt either. I just can't get past what "could" be and the immense amount of loss from "giving up" on the situation. What you said earlier about my brain just wanting a shortcut is the clearest explanation for that and I will keep thinking about that. I have definitely felt like an addict in withdrawal in terms of being so frustrated with myself that I can't just let all of this go.
The other part of me hates the thought of giving up and feeling like neither of us really "won", as seems to be the case with most Ds
That has NOTHING to do with him, and everything about you wanting to avoid feeling like you failed. Once again, even if he came back tomorrow you will need to process those feelings because of everything that's happened. Getting him back will not circumvent that. It just has to happen. You're right that typically everyone loses is D. The silver lining is coming out of it stronger, being more self-aware, with better relationship tools. That can be a real win for you in the future!
I will admit I hate the thought of a mutual loss that was largely controlled by one person, not necessarily because I can't accept failure, but because this was the one thing I always expected would only occur after a pretty long and and strong fight. Not just all at once with a bunch of surprises wrapped into it. I do feel like I am being blamed for things or punished for the things that I admit I do need to improve. But it's not that I can't accept my part in it; it's that while I feel "good enough" as a person, I don't understand why I wasn't good enough for him to look past the things he may have grown tired of with me to want to work on the marriage, and as a result I don't feel like "I" was given a chance to grow into a better person and wife for him, and together with him. THAT is ultimately what I want and expect in a marriage, that even if we fail at times - which I fully expected we would - that we would work on it together. I even wrote that in my wedding day letter to him, and I did that time and again with his faults, in ways and in specific situations that I honestly think other people wouldn't have/won't.
I want to fail, but then analyze what happened, adjust, and get back up and stay the path...it's having to pick a completely different path and accept the loss of control and security and certainty that you mentioned earlier that is more my problem.
When I discovered that my exW was cheating on me I created a virtual storage locker of everything that I'd found, and for months after the fact I would go back and review it, review the timeline, re-read the detail, etc. It would rip the bandaids off and plunge me right back into total hurt. It was the equivalent of punching myself in the face and giving myself a black eye every once in a while. Why did I feel compelled to do that? I don't know, but eventually I stopped and I felt better. Not sure you can skip that part.
Thank you for sharing/admitting that. I am getting a little better about it but still slip up... I do sense that I am getting less compelled to do those things, but I know it's going to happen here and there for a while still until I'm fully weaned!
Good luck to you TJT, no matter which way this goes you *will* be fine, and you *will* be stronger than you were before. That much I know. Happiness awaits and you will go back to feeling loved and valued, either with H or with someone else. That much I know.
These words mean so much to me, even coming from a complete stranger over the internet. There is connectedness in community and having shared similar experiences, that's for sure, and this little nod makes me feel understood and like there is also hope down the "other" path, not just the one I'm trying to hang on to.
Meanwhile, this is my first business trip where me and H have been fully NC, me not wearing my rings, etc. I have been acutely aware of the fact that I no longer appear as a married woman to the general public, and I hate every minute of that, both personally, of course, but also the weird impacts it has on how we are perceived professionally. I considered bringing them as a backup emergency button type of thing, but told myself I can't use that as a security blanket because reality is reality. There are certain situations I may definitely still use them for, but this was not one of them where I felt like it was actually necessary. It would have only been for me and I didn't want to deceive myself.
This also means there are people I have not told about my sitch yet who are likely going to find out this week, either by noticing the lack of rings or perhaps by asking about H..
We will see how the week goes and I'll be pretty busy so may not have much time to post, but will make sure to come give an update! I do have some additional tactical questions I've been meaning to ask here, but just hasn't been a priority for now.
Well here's a quick update, after I just went to dinner with other people here.
Sat and chatted casually. Generally I did pretty good. Overall still couldn't shake the stupid feeling of "none of this matters". Having a good time, enjoying a particular food, even the times when I feel content by myself, I always come back to "so what?" I want to share it with someone, have someone who knows me intimately to listen, etc. I am extremely resentful of how much meaning he's stripped from my life by his choices and with that, the little joy I am able to feel. It comes in moments, and I feel proud in those moments and like things will be ok, but when it wanes away I still feel left with nothing. I hope that's just because of how new it still is and will get better with time.
I totally get what you mean TJT. I have faith it will get better with time. I am continuing to soul search and to try to figure out what it is about me that becomes so attached to a man like my H. Currently, he is not the kind of man I should even want to be around and given what I know of his history (I chalked it up to him being young at the time), I’m not sure he ever was. Keep GAL. It will get better with time. Those moments of good feelings will increase and the moments of sadness decrease. Choose your focus. Be proud of yourself... you have earned it. (((HUGS)))
P.S. I get what how you felt about taking off your rings. I still wear my wedding band. Lately I’ve been thinking I should take it off but I haven’t been able to bring myself to do it yet. I am still married - legally and emotionally. In time I might feel differently.
What does taking off the ring really do? I took mine off, but I was never sure why. For me, taking off the ring was reaction. Instead of acting from my own morals, I reacted to a WW. I let a crazy cheater dictate how I act.
Make sure you are doing it for your own reasons and not the WAS's.
Thank you DejaVu for sharing you feel this way too!
Ovrrnbw, I felt it was part of preparing myself for my H to not come back... I have questioned it, definitely, because we are still technically married.
Well, small correction - at first I did it because he did it, and I felt like me continuing to wear my rings while he wasn't was one of those things that would make me look needy and desperate.
At this point, he's been out of the house for almost 2 months, and he never initiates contact. I've initiated twice for very practical reasons relating to money, and that's it. There's been nothing else to it.
So I haven't been wearing my rings since, thinking I would just be fooling myself and I need to prepare as if we are getting a divorce. I felt like maybe it would help me detach.
And, while I know this shouldn't be a factor in terms of what I do in my own life, it would definitely be hard for me to justify to friends/family why I am still wearing my rings when most of them know at this point what's been happening. I feel like they will think I am just a doormat and why should I wear my rings when he's moved out, hasn't contacted me at all, and seems to be actively seeing OW? I mean how does one explain that without sounding really dumb? I guess I could simply say that I'm not ready to make myself "available" yet (which is definitely true, although I have equally questioned whether not wearing my rings and potentially "allowing" for friendlier relationships with other men would be healthy too. Granted I know I am NOT ready to try to have another relationship or even a fling, I'm just talking about innocent things that could help myself detach and realize what else is out there vs. being stuck in this mindset that I will never be able to find anyone else again).
P.S. He doesn't know who all knows, or what specifically I've told them. P.P.S. I still struggle with the decisions I made on that because on one hand I absolutely think that people I interact with regularly knowing my sitch has helped keep me sane while I was feeling like I wanted to spiral out of control into depression, but at the same time I do weirdly wish that nobody knew at all (maybe just me wanting things to go back to "normal"). I just honestly don't see how I could have gotten to where I am now where at least I feel somewhat stable without having told the folks I told so they could be there for me.
I will say before I left for my trip I physically took them out and looked at them. It did definitely make me sad because my ring is absolutely gorgeous and he did a custom thing on it that meant SO much to us... and it's another thing that can cause me to get resentful and wonder how we went from that to where we are now. And I just feel doomsday about everything... nobody plans to have more than one marriage, and here I am thinking that one day, even IF I meet another man and want to marry him, nothing will ever be like it was the first time. How could I ever think of a different ring as perfect as the one I have now? How could I even think about a wedding ceremony with someone new as a special thing anymore?
I know people say you create new memories and new things that mean things to you with a new person, it just seems like a stretch to me. I will have to get to a point where I don't WANT the ring my H gave me because I don't WANT the relationship with my H. That just seems SO far into the future, and I regularly question whether I'm capable of losing that feeling for him at all, to the point where more often than not I am finding myself thinking, "It's either him or I'm going to choose to be single for the rest of my life!" Yes, my logical brain realizes how ridiculous that sounds. But I know emotional brain needs to get on the same page and for me I just know that if it doesn't, logic doesn't matter.
All of this does make me rethink my decision not to wear them though. I have started to feel a little more like "fine, he can do whatever he wants" so almost like me being more "secure" in where I'm at, to where maybe putting the rings back on isn't as much of a "thing" for me now... but I just want to be careful it doesn't put me two steps back.
Meanwhile, the whole thing that we've been separated two months and he never initiates contact and is just living whatever life he is living does have me very concerned. Reading a lot of other sitches, it always seems they try to make their way back or waffle for a longer period of time. I read a great majority of Kech's sitch and I had to get to that boundary-setting part pretty quickly where once I found out the extent of his PA and what he did in our home, I HAD to give him the option of either working on the marriage or getting out. He got out and doesn't seem like he's concerned about me ever since.
Still torn about me filing myself if he's not going to, but it's pretty much entirely related to logical risk. I'll post about that again and more details on my thoughts later.
I totally know what you mean about allowing “friendlier” relationships with other men. I’ve thought that too. I think because whether my H is having an A or not, I’m pretty sure he is sitting at his place feeling entitled to one. He is a part-time parent...sees his kids a few times a week for a few hours...has most of his nights free and, in his mind, he has been “single” for a long time. I’m sure he has justified it a 1,000 ways. I, on the other hand, have been without my H, in my mind, for only two months. And I don’t believe in getting involved with anyone unless I am emotionally free to do so. As lonely as I might feel some nights, I can’t really justify seeking someone else out just to feel less lonely. I think I need to grieve the loss of my M in the right way which, of course, is always the hardest way. I know, however, that my H will not do that. He will search out ways not to feel anything and to take a short cut and to not face the things he has done. Early on in our sitch, he came very close to facing himself...wanted to come home, make amends, admitted to feeling ashamed and not wanting to face anyone, said he was sorry and could never be sorry enough... and then one week later... gone. I have not seen him any signs of uncertainty since. I honestly think we would be NC like you if it weren’t for the kids. In some ways, that might be better for me but I don’t know. Mostly I would just like to run off to a tropical island for a month or two.
One other question I have is around SM. In my case, I'm specifically wondering how to use it (or not) as it pertains to GALing.
For example, there are things I have thought about that I would normally post (when I'm out at a nice place with a friend, or when I went to a concert with my mom). But I haven't posted about any of that because it didn't feel authentic, similar to what I said before I suppose, with everything else going on. Like hey here's me looking happy at a concert, even though I'm really not!
BUT, that has made me wonder whether I SHOULD post so my H sees what I am doing... perhaps drum up his curiosity about how I'm doing, etc. Because in my case, there is NO other interaction happening, and I feel like for him it will be "out of sight, out of mind".
On the other hand, I've thought that maybe no interaction + not being able to see anything on SM would make him more curious since he won't know anything about what I'm doing whatsoever.
Of course I fear that if I start posting and looking happy doing things without him he will just continue to reinforce in his own mind the story that he is doing the right thing (because of how he used the "you deserve better" cop outs and such when the details of his A came out). I think I've mentioned this before...this aspect of how my H is behaving is the hardest one to read, because I'm positive he does a lot things to mask his own guilt and THIS is why I'm so worried about my own actions. I know if I do anything that either makes him feel more guilty OR reinforces the story he's told himself, it may continue to dig us deeper into a hole.
This is why I have a hard time with just doing whatever I feel like, not based off of his reactions. I read in one of the other threads that it's more about me not doing things that will make him not want to come back, vs. doing things that will intentionally get him back, because it has to be HIS decision. So I get that...but it seems some of what I do or don't do is related to what he could see as reasons not to come back.
Our anniversary is coming up next month and I continue to dread it. I'm trying not to have any expectations, but I am absolutely going to be wondering what will happen that day. Even beyond him, like if his parents will say anything or if everyone is just going to act like nothing ever happened that day 4 years ago...
I do have a level of confidence that he WILL think of it, at least, when it comes. Whether he's with OW, whether he's working, whatever it is... I may not ever know for sure that he did think of it, or what specifically he thought about, but surely he would be nothing more than a ghost if that day can come and go without it even crossing his mind.
Speaking of his parents, I'm also debating whether it's okay for me to reach out to them and just tell them I'm thinking of them and miss them, etc. No ulterior motives there, just the truth. With the holidays coming up, it's just going to be hard not to do the usual things and go see them and all that.
As lonely as I might feel some nights, I can’t really justify seeking someone else out just to feel less lonely. I think I need to grieve the loss of my M in the right way which, of course, is always the hardest way. I know, however, that my H will not do that. He will search out ways not to feel anything and to take a short cut and to not face the things he has done.
Yes, exactly. We can't just "replace" the closeness we had with our H!
Early on in our sitch, he came very close to facing himself...wanted to come home, make amends, admitted to feeling ashamed and not wanting to face anyone, said he was sorry and could never be sorry enough... and then one week later... gone. I have not seen him any signs of uncertainty since.
Ugh... that is terrible. And again, so sad that there isn't more awareness and tools and acceptance for relationship issues, which I definitely feel is a factor in a lot of our situations, especially for men due to social norms placed upon them. I've legitimately thought about doing a bunch of research and starting speaking tours on the variety of things I've learned/realized through this experience so far!!
I honestly think we would be NC like you if it weren’t for the kids. In some ways, that might be better for me but I don’t know. Mostly I would just like to run off to a tropical island for a month or two.
I can see how NC would be easier than having to work things out with kids when otherwise things don't seem to be going anywhere. I definitely recognized that while I wanted my husband to be around, him staying at the house only when he had his son and then otherwise staying at a friend's was just too much of a rollercoaster for me to deal with. I needed him to either be there or not be there so my mind wasn't constantly shifting from one "setting" to another each week.
I would agree with you on the island part! I have a friend who wants me to go to to Mexico for her birthday and while it kind of terrifies me I also think it would be a great thing. But then I hold myself back because financially it doesn't seem like a good idea... I mean here I am, strapped with a new house that only I'm paying for, HOA dues are coming up in January, I have no savings left, I have no idea how consistent he will be with the money each month... I just feel stuck in all ways!
And that reminds me of yet another question, about whether I should "follow up" with him at some point if I don't see any money being transferred this month... it's obviously a big deal for me, but literally the only alternative/consequence I can offer if he doesn't is that I will have to file just to get the financial stuff separated that I otherwise can't without a divorce decree. So if I'm not actually at a point where I want to file, I feel like continuing to ask him about the status of money he owes me opens up the opportunity for him to continue saying he will even if it doesn't really happen, and then I won't have any other boundary options at my disposal to mitigate that! Ughhh.
I think it is okay if you reach out - especially if you are close to them. My H’s mom lives with me. How nuts is that? She will always be in my life and in the life of my kids. If you want to tell them you miss them, that’s okay. Just be careful. Parents can put pressure on the WH and it can backfire. Try not to badmouth him. Tough I know when he is being such a pr*ck.
TJT... I know this is beyond heartbreaking and difficult. I know... I am going through it. But you need to find a way to take your focus off your H and put it onto you. What advice would you give a friend if they were in the same situation? Follow it. Your H may think of you, he may not. It is important to come to terms with the fact that right now he is GONE...and he may not come back. You need to be prepared for that. You sound like a pretty amazing, strong, accomplished and capable woman. You need to call on those great qualities, DB and GAL. It is the only way. I know...everything in you wants to do otherwise. You need to know that the things you instinctively want to do WILL NOT work.
Re: SM. Post if you want but only do it if you have no expectations. I, for one, have avoided SM like the plague. I just find it too difficult... like I am lying every time I go on it. I still have a lot of shame. I know, I know... I am not the one that lied to his spouse for YEARS... I am just the person who believed him. Sadly...this is not my first marriage, it is my second. My first ended mutually...two good friends (still are) who were going different directions and parted amicably. I thought I had learned EVERYTHING I needed to know about having a successful marriage but apparently I did not. I was 32 and met my H when I was 37. Sparks flew, we were inseparable from almost the second we met. I loved him with all my heart and still do. Trying to figure out a way to let him go without losing that love. He makes it very, very hard.
Make tomorrow a good day. (((HUGS)))
so I'm always trying to determine what his current expectation is so that I can figure out what the "right" 180 is that might have the most impact. And that's made even MORE difficult since I'm dealing with someone who I know doesn't acknowledge, let alone make transparent, his true feelings or emotions that he's dealing with, and thus why in my last post I wrote about being so conflicted about whether his actions are really HIM or a symptom of something else.
I don't really think 180 works like that -- if a wayward spouse thinks you're just "peacocking changes" for their benefit, it will lead to two things:
(1). They will resent you more, because if you can so easily act this way now, why didn't you do it before when it was causing them pain?
(2). They will perceive it as a ploy to get them back and will believe as soon as they come back, you'll just go back to whatever you were doing before because you got what you wanted.
For 180 to be credible, it has to be a change in you even when no one is watching. It needs to be a course change that just becomes part of who you are, through repetition, such that you don't have to think about it anymore, it just happens.
That takes a lot of work and focused effort, and that's not going to happen unless its a change you believe in and you want to make for yourself!
Usually when a wayward leaves they have a laundry list of complaints. In my case I could pretty much categorize them into (1) invented (what she's saying really didn't happen), (2) completely valid (they are things I wasn't proud of that would probably bother anyone), (3) not bought in (I could validate how she perceived things, but those weren't changes I was willing to make because of who I am)
For the invented complaints, I could pretty much ignore them. For the completely valid complaints, those are the ones I chose to 180 because I truly believed those changes would serve me well with everyone I interacted with. For the "not bought in" those required more thought. If someone complains that you're liberal you may decide that you're just not willing to become a conservative for instance. Your integrity comes into play for some of those an you have to fall back on who you are.
Point is, 180 is for you, not for him.
This also means there are people I have not told about my sitch yet who are likely going to find out this week, either by noticing the lack of rings or perhaps by asking about H..
When I got divorced, I was afraid I was going to be walking around with a "scarlet D" hanging around my neck that would label me as flawed, or a failure.
What I found is that most people really just don't care any more than they care what brand of underwear you wear. It's more of a "she's divorced, she's married, who cares?"
When people notice the change, some will be morbidly curious and want to hear some awful story to satisfy their own need to indulge their darker impulses, some people literally will make nothing of it, but most people will be supportive in ways that will surprise you.
Over time, everyone will trend toward "not an issue" and being divorced will in no way define you.
Acc
I thought I had learned EVERYTHING I needed to know about having a successful marriage but apparently I did not. I was 32 and met my H when I was 37. Sparks flew, we were inseparable from almost the second we met. I loved him with all my heart and still do. Trying to figure out a way to let him go without losing that love. He makes it very, very hard.
Ugh... I am so sorry this has happened to you. It makes me even more terrified of the future and the possibility that even if I meet someone new, it could end just as badly!
It also makes me that much more frustrated that our SOs seem to be taking a walk in the park with the OWs/OMs... or at the very least, that the prospect of things not working out somehow doesn't terrify them too!
Over the past few days that frustration has been getting to me again. I'm not thinking about it all the time, but I'm definitely circling back to those feeling of "if only he would just do X..."
@Acc, I know there are absolutely things that I need to work on doing better just to be a better person, regardless of whether he's here or not. With respect to 180s, though, maybe I'm getting confused but I thought those were more situational changes (that, of course, should be sustained once you find something that works in the same cycles of interaction). But to be differentiated from those things that we need to change as a core person, with or without our SO..
What I'm saying is that I feel, and have felt for some time, that even when I change my behavior, there is no change on his side. This DID NOT mean I stopped, to be clear. And later on, he would admit that he noticed my changes, and appreciated them, but it would not be something I would have known from HIS behavior...in other words, it seems he did like certain changes but for some reason it simply wasn't enough, for lack of any other way to explain it.
I suppose you could argue that I could try changing again to see what would result in more than just appreciation, but to me this all honestly points to my H being completely distracted/uninvested, and that's why no matter what I would do, it never made a difference (and in some cases, there's only so much one can try). As I read DB there are some things that I tried doing (without knowing they were part of DBing). This is also what led me to actually letting more things go and being more passive about certain issues, because I recognized that maybe the simple act of "doing" things was putting pressure.
Recounting all of this is definitely bringing up some anger in me. I felt/feel damned if I do, damned if I don't, in that I am willing to continue making any changes and figuring out what works with him, but I honestly have had pretty much nothing to work with. I feel like our entire marriage could be saved if he could make ONE small change on his part to simply OPEN UP, RECEIVE, ACKNOWLEDGE... even if that leads to me doing 50 more on mine...but because he won't, or doesn't want to, or whatever, he is choosing another way that he thinks will be "easier".
And I'm not saying that any change, no matter how small, should just be super easy for him, but compared to having to start over with someone completely new and putting your faith in thinking that it won't happen with them? It seems extremely short-sighted, to say the least! And I know this is not my problem, but I also know it can be "fixed", and thirdly know that it's not my job to do the fixing! That cycle is like water torture, such a simple yet deeply maddening problem.
But in any case, back to the point - specifically what I'm trying to say at this particular moment in my sitch is that this is the first time we've ever been NC. I don't know what "more of the same" IS in this case because we've never done this before! So that's what I mean when I say I'm trying to predict what his expectation of me would be in this case, based off what he knows about me, so that I can adjust appropriately.
For example, I recognized early on that he was starting to pull away and text me less, etc. So that's when I stopped reaching out to him about anything unless absolutely needed, thinking that was the 180. (And this is a good example for why I thought this was different than the "permanent" changes, Acc - because say if we were to get back together, I assume me texting only when I absolutely need him would not be something I'd want to sustain in the happy relationship!)
But NOW, based on other things he had said to me in the past, I'm wondering if he really WANTS me to continue reaching out (not necessarily chasing, of course) to make him feel needed, you know? Because the more I don't contact him and just keep living my life, the more I can see I am playing into his narrative of me not "needing" him (which in his mind seems to translate into not being the provider or "man" he wants to be in a relationship).
If I had to choose between the former option (pulling back) and the latter (making him feel needed), I would honestly say the latter is what he would not expect of me, and thus is something I'd love to work on doing. However, in a situation like mine where he's moved out and may be actively with OW, I'm a little confused on whether that's an option anymore, or if NC is the ONLY option at this point??
For the record, he did transfer the money we discussed to cover his insurance last week... I wanted to say "thanks" or "I appreciate it", or whatever, but I didn't. And again, on one hand it's like, this is his obligation...so I don't want to minimize myself or make it seem like he's doing me favors when this is just his responsibility. But on the other hand, yeah, I'm appreciative he's not just skipping out on things. Ugh, I just hate this and how every little thing is now a thing!
Anyway, Acc, thanks for sharing your initial feelings on being divorced and the reality of how people seem to react. I would agree, after my last week away from home doing work things, that this seemed to be the case and most of it is in my head (although, I did have someone a bit older than me refer to me as "kid", which I feel would be less likely to happen if I was wearing a ring on my finger since it sort of automatically puts you in a certain minimum age perception).
A little bit of journaling...
Overall my week went better than I thought. It was my first work trip since this has all been happening, and I'm sure part of it was simply the relief that I didn't have to worry about what was going on back home. I was apprehensive about whether I would miss the text messages from H checking in on me or vice versa, but I was so busy it actually wasn't really a thing for me. I thought about it a few times but it didn't make me terribly sad.
That being said, I think that is also a testament to the depth of our interactions when I was away previously (or lackthereof) - we almost never talked live on the phone when I was away, only text (this was the case ever since I had known him, just not his style and it was this way with others in his life too) and only one time did he call and surprise me, after which I told him how much it made my day (multiple times) only for it to never happen again. *shrug*.
I did catch a cold or sinus infection or something while gone. I've been dreading this moment too because it's like oh hey, nobody around to take care of me but me now! Thank goodness for grocery delivery these days I guess...
I will say the past few days since I've been back, to coincide with my re-circling of frustration mentioned earlier, I've started to get that "itch" to contact him. Don't worry! I haven't done it! But I'm just having those feelings like I really want to talk to him and tell him how I feel, let him know I still love him, etc. Worried about if there would be a doubt in his mind how I feel, you know...OR even just ask how he's doing, somehow drum up some interest or feelings...OR little things I could do to insert a level of doubt into his thinking, or even into OWs (for example, maybe if I text him asking for more things on a regular basis, she will get jealous and start questioning - and maybe start busting his chops more and then things spiral downward, blah blah fantasy ended).
I definitely, definitely know this is all my mind just freaking out (but you can't deny there is some logic in the thinking, right?!) I am continuing to work on detaching and I actually do feel like I've been getting better at that, but this seems to be a "wave" happening to me right now where the feelings of not wanting to let go and accept what he's chosen are raining down on me again. Maybe it will pass more quickly than in the past... I guess that could be considered progress vs. expecting the thoughts to never happen again.
And the closer our anniversary gets, the more I will get a little weird in my head, obviously. It's just gonna be one of those milestones that I never wanted to have, having an anniversary pass that doesn't mean anything anymore... This really is the one thing that I've seriously considered saying something to my H about, in terms of something like sending him the wedding letter I wrote him or something. No big "rah-rah" but just something that says it's still a big day to me and means something to me and blah blah. But I know all advice is likely going to point to not doing that, it just feels so wrong not to. I will be happy when this "first" of not celebrating my anniversary is over (I assume it gets easier after that).
Also continuing to tell myself that just because we're not celebrating it doesn't make it any less true... we're still married, and until we're divorced the clock will continue to tick! As outrageous and unlikely as it seems, I admit that not thinking about everything as being so finite has helped me deal with it better. And hopefully as that's getting me by, I will gradually grow stronger to where I will be fine with it even if it is. I guess it's been about 6 months now since BD and 2 since we've been NC. While it feels like this has been going on forever, especially if I count the distancing that was occurring many months before BD, I know there's still a lot more time that needs to pass before I will be free of some of my thought patterns and yearning and grief. I am acutely aware and consider of myself being in these stages, while also seeing some of the progress I'm making, but still waiting to feel genuinely happy and whole again...that day cannot come fast enough.
Well, I got a text today from H, giving me a heads up saying he was working on the decree and might need some info from me to help fill it out.
I just went to IC yesterday because I was having a wave of grief after the holiday break that had me feeling just like the first day this all happened. We talked about how he still hadn't filed and how I felt about things and if/when I would ever file. Guess it's a non-issue now.
I'd be lying if I didn't say I am definitely surprised and absolutely even more hurt by this. It seems to confirm that he doesn't question his decision at all, especially given how apathetic he usually is about most other decisions in his life and rarely steps up to take action. He must really not love me anymore or have any doubt about my value in his life or whether his decision to divorce me is something he wants.
I know it's not over 'till it's over but I was not ready for this. Maybe it's because our anniversary is coming up in December that he realized he should do something but again, that would be very surprising to me if he thought that through and took action as a result.
Like I told my counselor yesterday and I've been saying in my posts, I have some great days where I feel I will totally be okay, but the days where it's bad, the pain is no less. I am afraid that even if the time between the feelings gets longer, I will never escape the depth of the anguish, and that anytime it comes to the top of my consciousness I will always feel as terrible as the day it happened.
Also, I initially just responded to H with "Ok". However, I definitely have an urge to remind him that this is not what I want and that my goal is to become his teammate in life and grow together and see everything we could accomplish together. I have the text drafted but I have not sent it.
I also feel like calling his mom, not to be like "omg your son just filed on me" but to simply let her know and talk, as a mother figure. I had sent her a few messages over Thanksgiving to see how they were doing and did tell her I wanted to call soon anyway.
Again I know this doesn't mean I should give up but god I really do feel like that's the only option now. I just really can't believe how this is unfolding and I really wish I could give a big middle finger and walk away realizing it's not the best situation for me. I just feel like I'm losing so much and that it's the dumbest thing ever and what did I miss and how did it escalate so quickly and how can people even be this way.
TJT,
Why does the thought of him filing for D scare you so much? Haven't you been essentially living as if you are D'd for a while now? What is it about the actual filing that scares you so much?
I see a lot of LBWs struggling with this. The H could be living in Timbuktu. Never contacting the LBW. Sleeping with 8 different women a night. Or even worse. But the LBW is so afraid of the D being filed.
You need to realize that filing for D is nothing more than a legal process. It does nothing to help nor hurt your sitch. There is nothing preventing your H from doing anything he wants before the D is filed as opposed to after. This is my point above. Say he files today. Tomorrow is no different because of it.
I definitely have an urge to remind him that this is not what I want and that my goal is to become his teammate in life and grow together and see everything we could accomplish together. I have the text drafted but I have not sent it.
Pursuit. It won't help. Write it in your journal and save it for later. Someday he might be ready to hear it.
I see a lot of LBWs struggling with this. The H could be living in Timbuktu. Never contacting the LBW. Sleeping with 8 different women a night. Or even worse. But the LBW is so afraid of the D being filed.
You need to realize that filing for D is nothing more than a legal process. It does nothing to help nor hurt your sitch.
Steve, I've been struggling with this, too. Can you elaborate your thought process on this?
P.S. I know that the type of text I described could be interpreted as putting more pressure on him. That's why I have not sent it. But I do want to know if there's anything at all that I could say that would be appropriate just to emphasize that I have not changed my mind about working on the marriage, IF he wants to.
I am afraid that if he does have any doubt in his mind, his shame and ego would prevent him from admitting that and trying to come back. I want to convey that I am not going to judge him or condemn him and that I am still a "safe" place IF he has the desire to work on things.
Simultaneously, I also know that I alone cannot fix the parts of him that make him feel ashamed or that otherwise prevent him from feeling like he can face into issues to make them better. If he sees something as broken or a failure, he has to first and foremost be okay with that rather than choosing to ignore or run away from them because it's too hard, embarrassing, doesn't feel the best, etc.
Guess I'm still affected by the feeling that this is my fault and there is something major I could have done to prevent it all.
I definitely have an urge to remind him that this is not what I want and that my goal is to become his teammate in life and grow together and see everything we could accomplish together. I have the text drafted but I have not sent it.
Pursuit. It won't help. Write it in your journal and save it for later. Someday he might be ready to hear it.
I see a lot of LBWs struggling with this. The H could be living in Timbuktu. Never contacting the LBW. Sleeping with 8 different women a night. Or even worse. But the LBW is so afraid of the D being filed.
You need to realize that filing for D is nothing more than a legal process. It does nothing to help nor hurt your sitch.
Steve, I've been struggling with this, too. Can you elaborate your thought process on this?
Sure. I think I can answer your question with a question:
How is filing for D worse than the a) WAS leaving the home, b) WAS never contacting the LBS, and/or c) the WAS sleeping with someone(s) else?
P.S. I know that the type of text I described could be interpreted as putting more pressure on him. That's why I have not sent it. But I do want to know if there's anything at all that I could say that would be appropriate just to emphasize that I have not changed my mind about working on the marriage, IF he wants to.
I am afraid that if he does have any doubt in his mind, his shame and ego would prevent him from admitting that and trying to come back. I want to convey that I am not going to judge him or condemn him and that I am still a "safe" place IF he has the desire to work on things.
Simultaneously, I also know that I alone cannot fix the parts of him that make him feel ashamed or that otherwise prevent him from feeling like he can face into issues to make them better. If he sees something as broken or a failure, he has to first and foremost be okay with that rather than choosing to ignore or run away from them because it's too hard, embarrassing, doesn't feel the best, etc.
Guess I'm still affected by the feeling that this is my fault and there is something major I could have done to prevent it all.
All LBSs think like this. Everything you express here has been expressed by dozens if not hundreds of posters before you. We all struggle with wanting to say the right thing. And that their ego and pride will mean that can't change their mind again. And that they may not be able to see everything clearly themselves. And that it is our fault and something we could have done differently to prevent it all.
There is no right thing to say. There are right things to do. GAL, 180s, detachment!
Their ego and pride might get in the way. However, they had the same ego and pride when they stood before God and a crowd of friends and family and promised their undying love to us. Can their mind change again? Of course it can.
They may never see everything clearly. Or they may wake up tomorrow and say "what the heck am I doing?!?" As you say we have no control over that.
And finally, maybe this is your fault. And you could have done things differently. So what? You can't go back. All you can do is resolve to be a better person from this moment forward.....no matter what the WAS decides to do!
Haven't you been essentially living as if you are D'd for a while now? What is it about the actual filing that scares you so much?
Yes, it's not the physical reality of the situation that I'm scared about. It's the perception of dwindling hope, where before, I was sitting here thinking that maybe mentally he is rethinking things or has doubts about going through with it, or giving himself time (just like I was) to fully pull the trigger and call it quits.
So to me it's that indicator that yeah, sure, he is absolutely behaving like we are divorced, but I also haven't known for certain what he is actually doing (if people can tell me not to dream up / assume / think catastrophically about what he IS doing, then it stands that I also don't know what he's NOT doing and for all I know he could be sitting there every day depressed and just not acting on it). I've been hoping that maybe emotionally, he has been rethinking things during this time apart.
Again especially based on what I know of him as a person, I feel like it says something major. And also because there's no other logistical gain that HE gets from divorcing me - we're not going to fight over money or the house or whatever, it actually just adds more work to his plate in getting his own insurance, etc. So again - if he's willing to do all that, I am getting the impression that being legally "single" is really important to him, which leads me to believe he is either moving on in a really major way with OW, or just really doesn't want to be tied to me in any way.
I do get the aside from the legal aspect of being married, nothing changes the dynamic of our relationship as it is right now and the way we decide to "be" together isn't determined by a piece of paper. From that side of things, it's not like we can never ever have a relationship again just because of that. But I just feel like he's the type of person where once something is done, it's done, so the likelihood that we would legally get a divorce and then him come back later to say "wait nevermind" seems a lot more slim, vs. now where I feel like it would be much less of a mental barrier for him, if we are still legally married, to come forth and say "maybe separating was a mistake".
Hope some of that makes sense.
[
Yes, it's not the physical reality of the situation that I'm scared about. It's the perception of dwindling hope, where before, I was sitting here thinking that maybe mentally he is rethinking things or has doubts about going through with it, or giving himself time (just like I was) to fully pull the trigger and call it quits.
What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."
He doesn't need your help to file for D. If he is talking this way likely he has no plans to follow through. So why get yourself worked up over something that might not even happen?!? Especially since he likely knows just mentioning it will send you spiraling. Why let him have that kind of power.
Even if he finally get the gumption to file, then everything else I said is true. What you said makes sense.....IF you are letting emotion and what ifs govern your life. DBing is about taking the what ifs out of the life governing business. How? By putting yourself SQUARELY in the role of governing your life. GAL. 180s. Detachment. They all make you the master of your domain!! So take control of your life by GAL like a mad woman. 180ing and becoming the best person you can be. And most importantly detaching from him emotionally so that he doesn't have so much control over you and your emotions.
TJT, you've got this. You are a strong woman. You do not NEED this man in your life. It is okay to want him in your life, but needing him in your life makes you weak and pathetic....something you certainly are not.
TJT, I'm sure it makes sense to a lot of people here. And there you go again making me think that you're secretly a computer that can read my mind and take my thoughts, replace "W" with "H" and call it a day. You. Are not alone.
What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."
Steve, that right there is an eye-opener. I'm going to let it percolate a bit...TJT, since we seem to think along the same dimensions, does it resonate with you? I recall a conversation with my parents a few weeks ago when I said, "W is stubborn as a mule, and it's usually when she doubts herself most that she starts making strong moves." Something along those lines, anyway.
What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."
Steve, I appreciate your intent with this post. But please, you know most of us LBS are a wreck. Please don't post statistics unless they are actual statistics. We all want to do the work while simultaneously having hope to stand strong, but pretty soon we'll start quoting that number as gospel.
I do, however, see your point and agree that the move towards filing is often an attempt by the WAS to push through their own doubt.
I am afraid that if he does have any doubt in his mind, his shame and ego would prevent him from admitting that and trying to come back. I want to convey that I am not going to judge him or condemn him and that I am still a "safe" place IF he has the desire to work on things.
TGT, our spouses sound very similar, and please know all us LBSs have the same exact thought you've expressed above. As I am in the process of learning how to detach I am trying to "fake it 'til I make it". If my goal is lovingly detaching, I am trying to do so by being kind and non-judgemental in words, but keeping the talk to a bare minimum. Right now this means barely any communication, so I have the worry you do that my W may not realize I'm an option. But they know. Just as we know them, they know us. We've expressed our love for them in our past actions. If they are able to come back they will know we can listen.
What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS. The WAS is often confused. Especially if the LBS starts to move on. The WAS starts to be eaten up with thoughts of "am I doing the right thing here?" And with most humans, when they start having doubts on something they've convinced themselves they want, they take action.....or the illusion of action. Thus "Hey, I am going to file for D but need your help."
Steve, I appreciate your intent with this post. But please, you know most of us LBS are a wreck. Please don't post statistics unless they are actual statistics. We all want to do the work while simultaneously having hope to stand strong, but pretty soon we'll start quoting that number as gospel.
I do, however, see your point and agree that the move towards filing is often an attempt by the WAS to push through their own doubt.
Sorry, I shouldn't have been flippant. The point I was making was that it was a majority of the time.
Totally agree! We all really value your input on these boards. You're very patient in telling everyone the same thing over and over!
Totally agree! We all really value your input on these boards. You're very patient in telling everyone the same thing over and over!
Thanks. I try to remember where I was early in my sitch.....and say the things people need to hear. Sometimes I am gentler than I should be, sometimes too harsh. But it all comes from a place of trying to help.
What if I told you that in 95.75% of the cases, talking about filing for D is actually an indicator that HE IS RETHINKING THINGS.
I've definitely not heard that before but I'm absolutely going to use it to make myself feel better, hah. To both Steve and burned... I do see what you're saying, I'm of course just skeptical that this is the truth with him, because why not continue to torture myself with the worst possible thinking? (I read something once - wish I could find it quickly with ease but I can't - that talked about one of the worst things about suffering being the consciousness that we are suffering. I find that to be very true, because I am constantly aware of my feelings and the flaws in my feelings or even thoughts, which just adds to the frustration that I feel and think that way to begin with!)
I also cannot think of a specific time where I've observed that type of behavior in him before. Like burned said, I probably need to let it percolate more too. Maybe I will think of other things that validate that. I do know he switches jobs a lot because he's never really happy, but doesn't necessarily have the means or (financially) or options (opportunities) to find a job he'd really love (although that was one thing I certainly offered him to do, to not work somewhere at least as a full-time, permanent arrangement until he found something he thought would be a good long-term place for him). I do feel like that behavior is somehow related to this, but I can't quite put my finger on the mechanics of it.
Even if he finally get the gumption to file, then everything else I said is true. What you said makes sense.....IF you are letting emotion and what ifs govern your life. DBing is about taking the what ifs out of the life governing business.
Yeah... I'm aware but definitely struggling to wrangle that and demonstrate it at my core. I am really trying to focus more on the whole "now" aspect of life vs. "what ifs" or "what will be", which is VERY hard because ever since I've been a little girl I have always thought about the future and planning how to get there, believing that if I do the "right" things I will achieve whatever I want to achieve.
The reality that I don't have full control over such a huge part of my life (in terms of what I would like to achieve with a specific person in a specific relationship), and how that's NEVER really truly possible, is just overwhelming. I can see how it's much easier to trust people and give your all in a relationship when you haven't experienced this type of thing because the moment you're aware of it, it ruins you. That's the other thing I mentioned in IC yesterday: I am now so afraid that I will sabotage any future relationship now that I know someone I thought was close to me is actually capable of it.
Being aware of my feelings on this and how it might be affecting me is certainly a positive thing, I know that, but you still never know how you're actually going to feel and react in a new relationship. My H is actually the first man I really honestly felt like I could trust and NEVER second-guessed myself with him until late, when all this started to happen. Funny how the people you least expect it from hurt you the most! Makes it even worse because now I feel like I can't trust myself to pick a good partner...
I also realize that anyone I really want to be with should be empathetic and understanding and supportive of what's happened in my life to the extent reasonable.
TJT, you've got this. You are a strong woman. You do not NEED this man in your life. It is okay to want him in your life, but needing him in your life makes you weak and pathetic....something you certainly are not.
I appreciate you saying that, 100%. It's weird because I actually do feel this way too. I legitimately feel like I don't need him, but I am so frustrated that I still want him! I don't want to want him if he doesn't want me! It's another thing that I feel makes it even worse; I feel even more weak and pathetic for wanting someone who doesn't see the value or want to put in the work for someone as amazing as me! Clearly that must mean I didn't make our experience together worth his while (that's my emotions talking, not my logic, because as we said before that could have nothing to do with it).
I hate to say thank you to things like this because it's terrible for everyone, but thank you for validating. It is nice to know I'm not the only one that thinks exactly like I do (and while I read plenty of other sitches, it's always different than receiving a direct response on our own thread, you know). So thanks for responding and putting in your two cents.
Right now this means barely any communication, so I have the worry you do that my W may not realize I'm an option. But they know. Just as we know them, they know us. We've expressed our love for them in our past actions. If they are able to come back they will know we can listen.
Thanks for posting, Yail. I don't think I've read your sitch yet so I'll go find it later today after my afternoon meetings.
You're right and I've reminded myself of this, too. He knows me. I've emphasized what I'm willing to do and my commitment multiple times leading up to this. While he could have the same doubt about "maybe she's changed her mind" (for the negative), if he was really wanting to try, I think he'd probably be (at least he should be) more confident than not about how I would respond. I like how you worded it - "if they are ABLE to come back".
I also echo the sentiments to Steve... Steve, I really appreciate your input and dedication to responding, even if the "swirl" of one's mind is exhausting. Sometimes I do feel the sting of the harshness, and completely agree that sometimes it's like "easier said than done, don't you understand?!" but I definitely know the intent and wouldn't ask you to stop for anything! Well...maybe if my H would come back... LOL. *laughs at own desperation*
I read something once... that talked about one of the worst things about suffering being the consciousness that we are suffering.
This is great to keep in mind. Kind of like how "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself". Harry Potter's boggart.
I do know he switches jobs a lot because he's never really happy,... I do feel like that behavior is somehow related to this, but I can't quite put my finger on the mechanics of it.
Oh look we really did marry the same person! I wonder if it has to do with them finding their purpose in life? Feeling valued, ability to grow and connect to the world around them?
(I read something once - wish I could find it quickly with ease but I can't - that talked about one of the worst things about suffering being the consciousness that we are suffering. I find that to be very true, because I am constantly aware of my feelings and the flaws in my feelings or even thoughts, which just adds to the frustration that I feel and think that way to begin with!)
This is a tenet of most major world religions, and especially Buddhism. Humans are the only animals (to the best of our knowledge) who can experience emotional pain, because we have the capacity to envision alternate possibilities. Most recently I came across this line of thinking (and articulated really well) in a book called 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson.
I do know he switches jobs a lot because he's never really happy
My ever so wise parents told me that this, of all things, was the number one concern they had about W the entire time they knew her, and the reason why they were not at all surprised that she'd ditch me for another man. Is that attitude part of the WW syndrome? Maybe. It's certainly yet another reason why our sitches are so eerily similar. For example:
ever since I've been a little girl I have always thought about the future and planning how to get there, believing that if I do the "right" things I will achieve whatever I want to achieve.
The reality that I don't have full control over such a huge part of my life (in terms of what I would like to achieve with a specific person in a specific relationship), and how that's NEVER really truly possible, is just overwhelming. I can see how it's much easier to trust people and give your all in a relationship when you haven't experienced this type of thing because the moment you're aware of it, it ruins you. That's the other thing I mentioned in IC yesterday: I am now so afraid that I will sabotage any future relationship now that I know someone I thought was close to me is actually capable of it.
Funny how the people you least expect it from hurt you the most! Makes it even worse because now I feel like I can't trust myself to pick a good partner...
I also realize that anyone I really want to be with should be empathetic and understanding and supportive of what's happened in my life to the extent reasonable.
I feel even more weak and pathetic for wanting someone who doesn't see the value or want to put in the work for someone as amazing as me!
And there you go again, reading my mind. These are fears that I am thoroughly familiar with. Earlier on in my sitch I was advised to sort of put them on ice, if that's something you can consciously do. Let tomorrow's worries be for tomorrow.
Oh look we really did marry the same person! I wonder if it has to do with them finding their purpose in life? Feeling valued, ability to grow and connect to the world around them?
I have absolutely realized in my H's case that he needs a lot of validation, and of a specific type (I think..maybe it's simply any type he's not used to!)
In fact I truly accidentally discovered a picture he was tagged in on SM recently that I had never seen before, from an event I know he attended (before all this started, but very recent to it) where a high school girl invited him to a school professional event since he "mentored" her about the field he works in, which she wanted to go into.
I remember him talking about how she gave a nice speech and called him out by name, etc. (For the record, I also remember telling him that it was nice of her, etc. and it was good he is helping others). But now here they were in a picture, and if it was anyone else it would seem normal I suppose, but now with the sitch I'm in I looked at it compleeeetely different.
Everything from the smile on his face to how close they were standing, all I could think about was what he was thinking in his head at this moment - that instead of this being something he was just proud to help someone with, he was likely feeling like Mr. Hot Stuff... "look at me and this other person giving me sooo many good feelings" (of course not putting into perspective that this is a HIGH SCHOOL GIRL who is not married to him or even has the slightest clue as to his flaws).
While I hate to think about it, because I don't want to believe he's on the spectrum of "creepy" and this girl was even younger than OW, I do feel like he also interacted with people of different ages in ways that I thought was a little off. Like, having pretty informal texting relationships with the people he managed, in a "friends" way, not in a work-related way, when he is a middle-aged man and they are, like I said, typically high school or early college age. That's one thing I did say something about once, but I'm sure you all know how that conversation turned out. Reasons, and stuff, and things, and later got used against me out of context ("Sometimes you say I'm too nice and then you say I'm too mean, which is it!?")
It's just one example but there are many other anecdotes of his work life where even the simplest compliment or admiration from others gave him the biggest ego trip...meanwhile I could say 10 positive things that wouldn't matter because of the 1 negative thing I said another time (he acknowledged this at some point, but had a "reason" as to why it was different in his mind, of course) AND the one small thing I was asking him to help ME with often went unaddressed while he is putting in all the efforts to please people at work..
Sorry, I got all riled up now ...haha. This is the stuff I definitely don't miss, that I try to remember the feelings of....but it's also the stuff that I feel we could have worked on together re: what we each needed. Totally not realistic if he's just expecting things instead of trying to understand my perspective or doing his part (and thinking that there's some deeper level of connection with someone else that's going to turn out drastically different because they tell him he's the best manager they've ever had and it's a new exciting thing to hear). Nevermind the threshold of greatness these people are used to is very low, again given their demographic, work experience, etc. Not to discount my H - he is great at what he does - but that's just the truth of the situations he's in that I don't think he realized whatsoever.
So yeah, if he's compared those experiences and people to me and our marriage, I was a little harder to impress than that. Could I have done better to positively reinforce certain things? Without a doubt. Do I deserve to be served because of it (let alone cheated on)? I don't think so.. (I also experienced the phenomenon of him suddenly doing all the little things I wished he'd have done during the normal course of our relationship once all this started, before it escalated, which made us get along briefly much better than we had in a long time...clearly not hard from him to do, but only willing to do out of guilt apparently. Like helping more around the house, saying thank you to every little thing I did for him, etc.)
Anyway, to your point, Yail, I don't think my H or your W will ever find what they're looking for if that's the rationale behind it. A part of me thinks that points to my H not ever being able to be satisfied in any relationship (especially one with someone younger and less mature who may just want to "give up" when things don't go well); but I also recognize someone less mature and more needy may be even more willing to accept his flaws and deal with them because of how much they do truly need him, whereas I didn't. Who frickin knows.
Humans are the only animals (to the best of our knowledge) who can experience emotional pain, because we have the capacity to envision alternate possibilities. Most recently I came across this line of thinking (and articulated really well) in a book called 12 Rules for Life by Jordan Peterson. [quote]
Yes! Exactly. I just want to be an ant right now, amazingly intelligent but no capacity to understand feelings, lol (ants don't have feelings right?) Thank you for that recommendation. I currently have The Power of Now on my nightstand to get through too.
[quote=burned] Is that attitude part of the WW syndrome? Maybe. It's certainly yet another reason why our sitches are so eerily similar.
Ugh. Note to self... It's unfortunate because for the industry he's in, I do empathize that there's not a lot of "good" options. But for sure there were things he could have thought through a little more, or taken more steps/put in the dirty work to get his own business going, which he talked about constantly and which I encouraged him to start doing and offered to help with in any way I could. And of course, despite the fact that MY area of work is closely related to business development type stuff, he didn't seem to see me as someone who could be a partner/adviser, which made me sad, especially since I know deep down we both wanted the same thing: A teammate!
And there you go again, reading my mind. These are fears that I am thoroughly familiar with. Earlier on in my sitch I was advised to sort of put them on ice, if that's something you can consciously do. Let tomorrow's worries be for tomorrow.
Yeah, I think it's good advice and really the only option to stay sane. How are you feeling now? Has it abated some or are you still working through those fears?
I have absolutely realized in my H's case that he needs a lot of validation
Possibly part of the WS/WAS syndrome, certainly true in my case. In hindsight, she was insecure and needy, and I didn't do enough to "feed" that. I mean I thought I did. But as with the job-hopping thing, maybe enough was never enough. One of the jobs she hopped away from offered her something crazy like a 25% increase in salary if she would stay. Nope, she had decided she was done and was already looking forward to her next job. (Two regrets here: 1, I enabled this every time it happened, saying, "If you don't like it, quit, you'll find another job anywhere, they'll love you, and I'll foot the bill in the meantime." Foreshadowing, perhaps, and now you see why I'm so certain she won't be coming back. 2,
the one small thing I was asking him to help ME with often went unaddressed while he is putting in all the efforts to please people at work..
Here I'll be honest and say that I did that, and I'm the one who got BDed. W repeatedly said she doesn't care about money. But I was raised to judge my worth by my salary, big mistake. I was so proud of myself; she felt all alone. Maybe it's a guy thing? Or maybe it's because when I was at work and I did something nice, I got praised, which I like, whereas at home I got a lot of gruff. (I'm slowly starting to see things more clearly from a distance, almost 8 months post BD1.)
I don't think my H or your W will ever find what they're looking for if that's the rationale behind it. A part of me thinks that points to my H not ever being able to be satisfied in any relationship
This is what I'm led to believe usually happens with the WS/WAS. They don't address the issues and they run through the script again. My M lasted 11 years (10 good years) so maybe 10 years from now she will find herself angry and alone again? That's still not a comforting thought, for someone codependent like me who still seems to think that she'd be happiest with me.
How are you feeling now? Has it abated some or are you still working through those fears?
Sorry to let you down, but I'm not even close to getting past those fears. They are THE thing holding me back right now, and they seem to get more intense the closer I get to D because that means I really will have to face them and I won't get to hide from them by staying in my M. But consider that healing happens at different rates for different people, and I am stubborn and somewhat immature when it comes to emotions. Plenty of people around here actually looked forward to the freedom and opportunities that came later. I'm just not there yet.
In hindsight, she was insecure and needy, and I didn't do enough to "feed" that.
I never THOUGHT my H was "needy", although maybe I noticed elements of insecurity. But I never imagined it would be such an issue. This also goes back to my H not communicating. There are a ton of things that I don't think he ever planned to share that even with my inquiries over time, he chose to just keep inside for whatever reason. Given he later said "you should have known", meaning I shouldn't have stopped asking (per his requests for me to stop...) I see that behavior as a diversion tactic now. He was dealing with it in ways he probably knew I wouldn't approve of, and wasn't willing to work on it WITH me, so therefore no communication aside from projecting the manifestation of problems onto me to make himself feel better about his inability to face it.
But I was raised to judge my worth by my salary, big mistake. I was so proud of myself; she felt all alone. Maybe it's a guy thing? Or maybe it's because when I was at work and I did something nice, I got praised, which I like, whereas at home I got a lot of gruff. (I'm slowly starting to see things more clearly from a distance, almost 8 months post BD1.)
I do see the pressure for men to be the provider. It's definitely ingrained in our society and I hate that, just as much as I hate the traditional limitations placed on women and certain things being associated with our value. But, I definitely don't understand why a man can't see the differences of work/impact/praise at work and those same elements in a relationship, which has many other variables, including their own behavior. My H worked all the time, every weekend, multiple jobs, for almost our entire relationship. So I totally identify with feeling alone, because he honestly seemed to like being at work more than with me. AND I accepted it (because to your point, I thought he just really liked it and I know we were also saving for a lot of things), AND still I'm the one who got BDed!!
One specific example of the work/home praise issue is we hung a security camera for our home when we first moved in and H helped rig the wires up nice and neat so they were out of the way. I praised him for how good it looked and how it was a great idea the way he did it (with matching color zip ties). He told me that once at work he put something electronic together with a lot of wires and took a picture for his boss, who then told him it looked like crap. So my H said he took the whole thing apart and re-did it to look better....
Two points here:
1) If I were to have said "this looks bad, can you redo it?" I would have been the equivalent of the wicked witch to my H. Not just in that moment, but it would get filed under this long-term mental list of "sins of my wife".
2) Even despite having done the exact opposite and praising H for his work, it clearly didn't have had the same effect as someone he's not around every day praising him for it.
I think part of this is unfair expectations. People start to expect that they won't be questioned by their spouse, or if they do, that it means something way more than it does. Whereas at work people see it as more of a transaction than a relationship, and if someone says you did something bad, you can look at it more objectively (not in all cases, but it's more acceptable in that context).
While it seems minor/simple, I totally see how this can escalate to really cause friction in a relationship. What's frustrating is how so many people don't realize that it is fixable, or even LOOK for solutions before ascribing these kinds of issues to the other person taking them for granted and now everything [censored] and they now suck and are a different person I married, and now I want a D, vs. other things impacting the interactions that can be changed or better yet, reminding themselves of all the good things. Also, the seemingly more and more acceptable behavior of people being disposable since you can just find someone else who will be different, right?
I read a LOT when my sitch first escalated about misconceptions of good marriages always making you feel "happy", and how just because you don't feel the warm fuzzies sometimes doesn't mean you are no longer compatible or can have a great relationship. It just happens. You get into slumps. Life throws things at you that pull out your irritable side or your fears or whatever. I'm generalizing the issues of course and totally not trying to discount the real problems we each have in our Ms, but I'm just saying - there were totally things about my H and our M that I haven't liked. I ALWAYS felt it would be worth it to stick with him and grow and love him anyway. That's why I married him.
IN FACT, before we got married, while we were engaged, I will admit that an acquaintance started to get friendly with me and made me rethink if I was choosing the right person...but the point is I remembered all the things I loved about my H, all the work we had done after many years of dating to grow together, and I did CHOOSE him with intention. I remember how during that time I questioned my "feelings" of not being totally head over heels for my H, but guess what? Because I chose him and deliberately put all of myself into our M, those feelings absolutely came back.
I can empathize my H questioning or not being totally thrilled with me in some phases of life... but it really hurts that whatever things he didn't like about me or our M were SO bad that he felt he didn't want it anymore, especially without half the fight for our M that I would have expected from him. I definitely think that's related to the short-sighted warm fuzzies of a new relationship making someone think what they have is now inferior without looking at the big picture.
That's still not a comforting thought, for someone codependent like me who still seems to think that she'd be happiest with me.
I'm with you on this one, 100%. Exactly how I feel. Not because I think I'm perfect, but because I know how willing I am to work with him on things. I don't feel like there are many people out there who are THAT loyal and truly committed to another person (clearly, I mean look at what I'm willing to stick with him through!) Maybe I'm wrong and over-romanticizing myself, I don't know...again just doesn't make sense to me unless the whole relationship was garbage fire to throw all that history away.
Sorry to let you down, but I'm not even close to getting past those fears. They are THE thing holding me back right now, and they seem to get more intense the closer I get to D because that means I really will have to face them and I won't get to hide from them by staying in my M.
Well, I just realized from this response that we are almost in similar places in our sitch. BD for me happened in May. So this doesn't totally let me down that you have the same fears, for some reason I thought your sitch was further along.
I am definitely stubborn with my emotions as well and can't even fathom being excited about the "freedom" that will come with no longer being in my M. To me the loss feels like so much of a backslide in life that the time it will take to rebuild or to even find someone to work toward rebuilding with that I feel like I will love as deep as I love my H feels impossible, and that it won't ever live up to the future I imagined having with H. You know, because of that whole part where you never imagined you'd have to do it kind of thing, and now that you've imagined it one way how can you just erase that and start with a fresh mind?
I know everyone says we can't know that and we may find something better and many people do...but I'm in the same mindset right now where because I'm so stubborn and passionate about how I feel, I don't know if I believe I can get there. I do try to think of ex-boyfriends and how I felt with them while I was dating them vs. how I feel about them now, to convince myself it's possible, and that helps look at things a little different BUT it also doesn't seem like a fair comparison because of the much shorter lengths of those relationships, maturity level, etc.
In summary, I didn't take M lightly. I don't think any of us here did. For H to just be like, meh, no big deal, or him being so confident he'll survive, I just want to know what DNA that is, and can I have some?? But I have to talk myself out of not wanting to be a loving, committed person anymore, because I know that's not the "right" option and the more I think like that, the more I definitely hold myself back from the possibility of something good in the future...but legitimately, I don't know what I would do or how others on this forum do it when they get hurt like this multiple times. If this were to happen to me again I think I'd definitely have to be committed....like, to a psych ward, not a person lol.
Ugh, another super long post. I was doing so good for a few there
Wow TJT... I could have written that. And I think we may have been married to the same person... the one who never speaks up about how he feels but keeps a bag of resentments close to his side in order to justify his lack of fight. You sound like a strong woman. My H has always been attracted to strong women but then, over time, he grows to resent them for the very things he liked about them in the first place. Confident becomes controlling...determined becomes stubborn...intelligent becomes “know-it-all”...you get the gist. My H has a very hard time expressing his feelings if they are at all negative. He is incredibly articulate and has the gift of gab but he clams up whenever it comes to his internal experience. He also only ever talks to the people in his life that he thinks will agree with his perspective. He avoids anyone he thinks might judge him or tell him he is wrong. Your H, like mine, has a lot of work to do.
I’m with you btw... this is not an experience I would care to have twice but at least I have a better idea of what characteristics I need to avoid in the future.
My H has always been attracted to strong women but then, over time, he grows to resent them for the very things he liked about them in the first place. Confident becomes controlling...determined becomes stubborn...intelligent becomes “know-it-all”...you get the gist.
Yes, this. I believe this is part of what has happened in my sitch too, although historically I don't think my H's partners have followed that trend, AND I'm pretty certain OW is a much different type of "woman" (I have a hard time using that word with her), based off what I know.
That's interesting to me because I can see how her "needing" him may have drawn him to her, but I have a hard time believing he's going to be happy with that long term. Especially given allllll the logistical "life" things I did that I asked him many times if he would share more responsibility for doing, which he then would state he preferred me to do because I was better at it! Which may have been partly true but I also feel like was partly him being lazy and not wanting to have to deal with it.
I guess it's back to what I already said too about the "standard" of excellence other people around him have vs. me... maybe if I had fed him a bunch of fluff to make him feel like he was amazing (rather than just asking for help like a normal person) he would have been more open.
Then again, there's a big part of me that feels like he would have been "susceptible" to this no matter what, in the sense of it being more a values/commitment issue than an issue of our problems in the relationship, if that makes any sense. Not being able to evaluate and accurately make sense of one's feelings, and therefore making it someone else's problem.
I believe that most of the gripes, while not invalid, were made out to be way more of an issue and play more of a role in this than they really did - they were just "convenient" for him to use as a "reason". I have proof of this behavior in him because when the initial details of OW came to light and I suspected there was more to it, I tried to point out and ask about more things and he would totally gaslight and say, "You're never going to believe what I say" and "This is exactly what I'm tired of." So later when I found out that my suspicions were correct, I stated how messed up it was that not only did he lie, but then he made me seem crazy for not believing him. And he just said, "Yes, I did."
I will definitely say the "cycle" our arguments followed was essentially that I would bring something up, and the real issue would never get addressed because he'd just get too defensive about the fact that I was bringing something up! Instead of keeping on topic, it would become about "well what about when you did this other thing!" And i would say hey, we can gladly talk about that separately, but right now we're talking about this thing...and by the way, if you ever have any issue, please bring it up at that point and not only when I'm trying to talk to you about something else."
It sounds so stupid, and this is exactly what I meant earlier when I said that while I KNOW how maddening these cycles are, I'm still also smart enough to know that that cycle did NOT mean we weren't compatible..it just meant we hadn't yet cracked how to communicate with each other in ways that worked, and in my opinion is something that could definitely be improved upon.
Anyway, back on the topic of being strong vs. needy, I don't think I'll be able to "win" that game with him. I'm not going to be able to change the things that are strong about me, and I shouldn't have to and don't want to, but even IF I practiced being more, how should I say it.... prudent?... he's got such a fixed mindset that I don't think it would matter. Rather than growing together, he said at one point he doesn't think that's possible and we can grow with other people instead. I know it was likely just another excuse for him to run off with OW and time will tell how that works out for him and if he's just going to keep "outgrowing" people.
Separately I'm now freaking out a little bit that he's the one who has control over the D papers because for some reason I've gone from "he wouldn't spend the money on a lawyer or try to fight me for money" to "OMG WHAT IF HE GOT A LAWYER AND IS GOING TO FIGHT ME FOR MONEY"... but I'm going to table that for now and take into consideration what Steve already said, and not try to scare myself into anything other than what it is at this moment!
TJT: I wanted so badly to reply to all of the different things you said.
I wrote a really long post with quotes and responses and all that.
Then I thought to myself: she's a lot like me, and that's fun and reassuring. But wait a minute, if she's a lot like me then maybe she gets stuck in the same patterns that I do. You said you were an introvert, no? So am I. And the problem we have is that we live our lives in our heads, not in the real world. We sit around and think and talk and ruminate until the cows come home. Does it help us? It soothes our fears, in the moment. But do we benefit, in the long run, from short-term avoidance of pain? Maybe thinking and talking and ruminating is a way to avoid the harder stuff.
Let's take a different approach today. It's time for action. Nothing crazy. But this is a DB forum so let's refocus. We're both afraid of the machinations of our spouses as they secretly prepare to crush our hearts yet again. What's the antidote?
GAL! So GAL, gal. Do it. And then report back to us. What did you do? How did you feel? Were you able to stop thinking about H, even if it was just for 10 minutes?
We sit around and think and talk and ruminate until the cows come home. Does it help us? It soothes our fears, in the moment. But do we benefit, in the long run, from short-term avoidance of pain? Maybe thinking and talking and ruminating is a way to avoid the harder stuff.
First, I hate you.
Second, just kidding... good points.... I really don't think that I talk and ruminate out of avoidance, but moreso as a coping mechanism when I can't understand stuff. Actually, I think I think, and because I think too much, I start funneling it all into writing and talking because I need to get it OUT to make it stop in my head. Not that it ever really stops, but it does help. And I am big on reflection because it helps me learn too. I have always been a journaler and "discusser" and I love teaching stuff back to people because it helps me see things through different lenses.
How-e-verrr, because I'm also a very practical person...when stuff doesn't make sense, especially stuff out of this world like this, which is the most preposterous and history-making event in my life that I thought I'd only see in a movie, I definitely keep going deeper and deeper and spiraling because damnit if there's not an explanation somewhere and I am GOING to find it.
So, the essence of what you're saying is still true. It doesn't actually accomplish much, especially with something like this, and I know that to my core. It can definitely become an obsession/compulsion that I try to recognize when it's worse at some times than others.
Let's take a different approach today. It's time for action. Nothing crazy. But this is a DB forum so let's refocus. We're both afraid of the machinations of our spouses as they secretly prepare to crush our hearts yet again. What's the antidote?
GAL! So GAL, gal. Do it. And then report back to us. What did you do? How did you feel? Were you able to stop thinking about H, even if it was just for 10 minutes?
I admit for my last few threads I went on a little bit of just like, venting I guess. And I think it's helpful to revisit some examples and context when I'm reminded of certain things too. But I digress - I do have plans for friends to be over (like 4 of them) to grill out this weekend and while I feel pretty lame because I don't really know how to "entertain" people when it's literally just me, I know it will be good to chill out and chat and stuff. Although I also feel guilty that I've been telling them I'd send an evite to get it on their calendars and have failed for like a month, and now the weekend is pretty much here! But then I said oh well, they know the plan and look at everything I've been dealing with - no hard feelings if I couldn't get a damn invite out.
I also wanted to go out to dinner one night this week with a neighbor lady but back to the introvert thing, she's starting to exhaust me because she has a lot of her own relationship drama but compared to what we're dealing with it's like...really? And I end up being her relationship coach most of the time and the other day I found myself just being really annoyed by it and feeling more like I'm getting drained rather than fulfilled. But I'm going to keep it going and just see if we can connect on some other topics maybe.
Aside from that it's just not "me" to go out that much. This is why I am PETRIFIED of "dating". Just thinking about it is exhausting. I want "my person" that understands and likes just hanging out with me even if it's doing nothing, an area where I thought me and my H were matched up really well. I also don't have a lot of close friends and only got together with friends without my H very rarely - and I was okay with that, it wasn't anything he pressured me not to do or anything. AND he was the same way, another thing I loved because it made me feel like we never really got sick of each other or that I had to worry about what he's really doing with "just the guys". I just really crave having "couple friends" and being a family unit. The single ecosystem is not a place that will feed my energy well..
I do make sure to have my pedicure days every once in a while and make sure I'm giving the dog a decent amount of outside time, so that will be my other commitment I guess. In fact maybe tomorrow I will try to take her for a walk right away in the morning rather than waiting until after work. I've tried to make sure I get "fetch" time in the yard with her but it's been a while since I took her on a full walk. I'm questioning if that even counts as GALing... please tell me it does.
I found myself just being really annoyed by it and feeling more like I'm getting drained rather than fulfilled. But I'm going to keep it going and just see if we can connect on some other topics maybe.
This is a delicate balance of pushing yourself vs knowing your limits. It applies to everything, but social situations is something I relate to. Just remember it's okay to step back sometimes. It is okay. Push yourself, but listen to yourself too.
Aside from that it's just not "me" to go out that much. This is why I am PETRIFIED of "dating". Just thinking about it is exhausting.
When you find you are ready to date remember there are different kinds of dating. Sometimes it will be "too much" (kind of like your description about hanging out with your neighbor lady). Maybe that's not the right kind of energy to push too hard. When you meet someone cool that you click with you will not be in a perpetual state of exhaustion. Introverts date - all the time! Again, you will just have to experiment with pushing yourself a little bit to get yourself to go out - but then know when it's just not your scene, and don't be embarrassed to bail after that.
Maybe you don't need to "date". Just....meet new friends. And some of them may be cuter than others
In fact maybe tomorrow I will try to take her for a walk right away in the morning rather than waiting until after work. I've tried to make sure I get "fetch" time in the yard with her but it's been a while since I took her on a full walk. I'm questioning if that even counts as GALing... please tell me it does
I say yes. If nothing else, it is switching up your routine which is great. That's always a good thing. New perspective can be seen with new activities. Good for our brains.
You seem to be having a bad night. I so sympathize, and hope you feel better tomorrow. Allow yourself this mood and energy dip. But then tomorrow wake up renewed.
Yes, walking the dog! Introvert GAL. A long walk with your best friend. Physical exercise. Is there a dog park where other people go? Go there. Try starting a conversation with one person whose dog likes your dog. Ideally someone you’d never date. Just practice making small talk.
Ugh dating. I hear you. But don’t worry, it will happen organically. I dread the idea of going to bars to “pick up ladies.” Eff that noise. You’ll be at the supermarket and your cart will bump into someone else’s cart and he will blush and look down and smile and you will have the courage to banter with him on the way to checkout and you’ll end up getting his number so you can text (introverts don’t call!) and you’ll be smiling and when you get home you’ll realize that you forgot to get onions, and you won’t care because it was a good day.
I mean, that’s one hypothetical scenario. Plus he has dog food in his cart so you ask him about his dog, and he has a husky-shepherd mix, which is a really cool kind of dog, and he has hazel eyes and he likes the same brand of pasta sauce as you do.
Thanks Yail, everything you’ve said is encouraging and I do appreciate it and you’re right, there’s appropriate context even for introverts to meet people
I have been having a bad few days since the holiday, but I am on the upswing once the major breakdown passed. Work has also been annoying however that’s one thing where I actually get really in the zone and stay very busy during the day and hardly ever think of H. But it can make my evenings and weekends a lot harder if I don’t plan in advance because suddenly when work is done it’s like welp, here I am!!
The dog has actually been very helpful because now that she only has one parent I know I’m the only one responsible for giving her attention and exercise and I try hard not to neglect her because of that. She’s definitely gone on a lot more walks than ever before!
I can’t remember if I wrote about it but I did go to yoga after IC the other day. It was when I was feeling more anxious and it was hard to focus but it’s great practice. The instructor did a meditation at the end where we had to think of someone we love, someone who is difficult right now, and finally ourselves and envision saying to that person / ourselves “ may you be happy, safe, and loved”. It was hard for me to do that for both H (difficult person) and myself but again, good practice and overall the classes do help my body feel more relaxed. I actually purchased more classes while I was there since I only had two left.
LOL burned, I think I might save that whole response so I can keep going back to read it. I honestly lol’ed. Thats totally the ideal scenario!
Unfortunately my dog is a rescue and she’s adorable but acts like absolutely everyone else is a murderer... she’s not good at making me friends so we stick to ourselves for the most part. I do occasionally take her to a trail instead of just the neighborhood.
Thanks for the laugh, I’ll let you know how my next grocery store GAL goes!
Oh! I forgot! Last night I had a weird dream but it's so easy to analyze it's ridiculous. I just wanted to share.
The dream was being in some car that ended up crashing into water. Someone else was with me but I don't think it was H, I think it was just a "character". Anyway I was telling the person we have to get out of the car. But rather than being scared of drowning and the motivation being not wanting to DIE, I remember distinctly that the motivation was more like letting the car sink...in other words I had been set on trying to find a way not to lose the car, until I realized it was sinking and there was nothing I could do. And I was actually kind of calm, whereas in other dreams like this (I have a lot of water-related dreams) I am almost always panicked and struggling.
How is that for symbolism?? I'm very interested in the fact that it was more of a "letting go" dream and even though my mind still races during the day and I don't feel that calm in reality, I hope it means that I am on the right path.
And then I had another "chapter" of dreaming where there was some person with a reptile head that when it opened its mouth it looked like a bunch of teeth and spun around, but I think it was actually just talking or something, I don't know. Super weird, no clue on the relevance of that one!
More dreams last night.
First one was I went to his place of work and saw OW there. My attitude was not angry or sad but more arrogant actually, although jealousy was definitely there as I remember telling someone that she wasn’t that pretty haha. That was pretty much the extent of the dream, sort of being there for a while and continuing to get glimpses of her.
The second one was I was at some event where there was a cute guy speaking and afterward there was some flirting. But then I found out he had a girlfriend so that made me a little sad. I think this one is about feeling rejected even when I feel good about myself (I was confident and wearing really cute outfit in the dream and felt like I acted very charming!)
Weirdly my mom texted me saying she’s having H dreams now. Said hers was also about seeing HIM at work and him being remarried...ugh
People (and women in particular) have a way of painting a super rosy picture on social media even when they are falling apart IRL.
Well, my life is falling apart and I'm definitely not painting a rosy picture on SM, haha. I have not really been on it at all, for the very reason that I don't want to be "fake" and it's obviously not necessarily the best time or place to let people know what IS going on, the way I'd like to at least.
On the other hand, my H is painting a rosy picture not even on SM, but in real life, to everyone he encounters. He is happy and this doesn't seem to affect him. He said he's happier around everyone but me, and I know I'm not THAT terrible even if I have my moments. It's absolutely him compartmentalizing what's really going on within himself.
So, I think the statement is more appropriate for anyone who has done something they're not proud of in general. People who are guilty and in denial of the things they really need to face and own up to or just generally address. It's a coping mechanism, so still validates what you've said about not using it as an effective gauge of true feelings.
I am moving this over to your thread from burned.
First and foremost, I absolutely abhor SM. It think SM is a big part of the reason why our culture has just gone down the sh!tter. I think SM is good for businesses and that's about it. I think personal SM has been eroding society, and adding to the whole me first instant gratification of our society/culture.
Anyway, your H is probably feeling great because he is shedding off what he sees as his problems. However we can't run from problems because they always catch up. I don't think you are terrible, he just hasn't had enough time to feel any regret or remorse, and if he does you may never know. Men compartmentalize. I do it all the time, its how I am wired. He may be feeling guilty and overcompensating. Why else would he be happier around everyone, but you? He likely feels guilty for what he is doing to you.
The important thing is to figure out what you did wrong on your side of the fence and make corrective actions to better yourself. Be the better you.
People (and women in particular) have a way of painting a super rosy picture on social media even when they are falling apart IRL.
Well, my life is falling apart and I'm definitely not painting a rosy picture on SM, haha. I have not really been on it at all, for the very reason that I don't want to be "fake" and it's obviously not necessarily the best time or place to let people know what IS going on, the way I'd like to at least.
On the other hand, my H is painting a rosy picture not even on SM, but in real life, to everyone he encounters. He is happy and this doesn't seem to affect him. He said he's happier around everyone but me, and I know I'm not THAT terrible even if I have my moments. It's absolutely him compartmentalizing what's really going on within himself.
So, I think the statement is more appropriate for anyone who has done something they're not proud of in general. People who are guilty and in denial of the things they really need to face and own up to or just generally address. It's a coping mechanism, so still validates what you've said about not using it as an effective gauge of true feelings.
First and foremost, I absolutely abhor SM. It think SM is a big part of the reason why our culture has just gone down the sh!tter. I think SM is good for businesses and that's about it. I think personal SM has been eroding society, and adding to the whole me first instant gratification of our society/culture.
Agree!
Anyway, your H is probably feeling great because he is shedding off what he sees as his problems. However we can't run from problems because they always catch up. I don't think you are terrible, he just hasn't had enough time to feel any regret or remorse, and if he does you may never know. Men compartmentalize. I do it all the time, its how I am wired. He may be feeling guilty and overcompensating. Why else would he be happier around everyone, but you? He likely feels guilty for what he is doing to you.
Okay for some stupid reason I've never put two and two together on your last sentence until you just said it. I mean I know he was acting in certain ways out of guilt, but I didn't match the guilt with him saying he was happier around other people. I was convinced I really was incapable of making him happy truly because of who I am, even though I knew that also didn't make full sense. So yeah, thank you for that point.
The important thing is to figure out what you did wrong on your side of the fence and make corrective actions to better yourself. Be the better you.
I've always been big on self-improvement and not afraid to face my flaws. I truly tried to make changes as it relates to me in my M to the best of my ability, given the lack of communication....and as I've gone back in my sitch I've started to give myself a lot more credit for that. But that's just to say that I've realized my biggest flaw wasn't necessarily related to the specific things I needed to work on for our M, but rather not realizing that there was something wrong with the fact that I was doing those things and not getting any response from it...
My H had always, always been the quiet type, so it was a little harder to tell when he apparently started to check out. So I know in the future, I need to trust my gut a little more and recognize these things in a partner and not be afraid to raise more of a concern, because any partner who really wants to work on it with me won't just push me away or make me feel bad about asking or checking in or whatever it is.
Even when we first got married, I had suggested doing even general couple "class" things like we did for our premarital session as a refresher to keep our relationship tools sharp. He always refused, I can't even remember why, despite saying before M he actually kind of liked the premarital thing we did.
Even on our FIRST anniversary we were supposed to do a letter exchange thing and then write a new one for the next year. We read the first one but he never seemed interested in putting a new one in. I think he said something like we could just collect the other notes we write each other throughout the year in there. And since he did in fact write me other short love notes ALL the time I just rationalized that the whole "tradition" thing of the letter writing just wasn't his cup of tea, and who was I to make that a big deal? Turns out that was the wrong question...who was HE to not realize how much it meant to me when I asked if he would do it!
These are the examples that really help me with perspective when I think back, because there are other things similar to this where the "thing" itself may have been small, but it meant a lot to me and he just never did it. Like the whole never calling me when I was traveling for work. Again, I just rationalized it because in all seriousness, I rarely saw him call anyone. He definitely preferred texting. But that doesn't make it any less important that I wanted him to call me and asked if he would multiple times, and yet that wasn't important enough for him to act on. Well, except the one time I described previously where it happened, and I told him how much it made my day, and then it never happened again...*shrug*
Telling that story again and knowing what I know now, maybe the only reason he called that one time was because he had done something "bad" while I was gone and it was really to make himself feel better, hah. Or maybe that was an honest effort by him that he just couldn't bring himself to be consistent with. I'll never know. And I'm proud to say that I've gotten better about being "ok" with not knowing because of how I've started to recognize the things that are truly mine to own and the things that are not. I still doubt myself sometimes but the more time that passes, the more it sinks in how not healthy the behavior was, and I definitely only want to proceed with something that is productive and healthy.
P.S. I forgot to address the compartmentalizing thing. That really bothers and scare me about future relationships, especially when it's positioned as just being "how men are". I don't think it's 100% outright a bad thing, but the whole not showing emotions, or at least not being honest about how you feel/putting it to the side and not addressing something directly is super detrimental to a partnership.
The reason I say it's not 100% bad is because in fairness, women could definitely benefit from having a little more of that skill rather than overthinking things as much as we do. The important thing is that both people recognize these traits and identify where they may be detrimental to agree on approaches that works for both. That's where I think a lot of people will just use the excuse of "well I'm a man" or "I'm a woman". We can't change some things but we can be aware of them and manage them if they don't always serve us well!
My H would always say, "We'll cross that bridge when we get there" about a lot of things. Hmm... I guess we're there!!!
TJT,
Are you seeing an IC? A really good IC can help you work through your problems and help you with improvement. One thing my IC helped me with is the communication dynamic between men and women. In general men think and communicate in a very logistical method. They are wired to compartmentalize, literally they have more neural connections than women in certain parts of the brain that result in this. Women on the other hand think and communicate from an emotional base, and have more neural connections in certain parts of the brain than men that leads to this type of thinking and communication.
You also mentioned that you and your H are introverts, I am in the same boat. As you probably know introverts especially of certain personality types internalize emotions. We feel just like everyone else you may never see it. It can definitely cause problems, it did for my R with my wife. I didn't really know how to deal with this until talking to IC. As far as my MR its unfortunately very likely too late. If you internalize emotions in the MR its definitely something you should work on. If your H does this, well nothing can be done about it unless he addresses it in IC or its something he works on if you were to ever recon.
Yes
One thing my IC helped me with is the communication dynamic between men and women. In general men think and communicate in a very logistical method. They are wired to compartmentalize, literally they have more neural connections than women in certain parts of the brain that result in this. Women on the other hand think and communicate from an emotional base, and have more neural connections in certain parts of the brain than men that leads to this type of thinking and communication.
I understand. Yet we are smart enough to know/realize this, therefore smart enough to manage it or at least communicate and work to understand where we may be perceiving something different than the other person. But I still see a lot of people pulling the "I'm a man" or "I'm a woman" card. Basically we may be "predisposed' to think a certain way but that doesn't mean we can't be aware of it and do something about it.
You also mentioned that you and your H are introverts, I am in the same boat. As you probably know introverts especially of certain personality types internalize emotions. We feel just like everyone else you may never see it.
I'm very outspoken and direct and expressive. I'm not shy whatsoever. I do ruminate but you will usually end up knowing about it because I can't keep it in. The introversion quality in me is not getting my "energy" from other people. If you haven't read Susan Cain's "Quiet" book, I highly recommend it as it helped me understand why I don't come off to others and introvert but consider myself to be one. What I learned is that it's about energy. Socializing drains my energy even if I enjoy it. I have to recharge with my alone time.
I do understand there are other "types" on the spectrum where expression is an issue but I honestly think that's too much of a simplification to explain my H. It's poor communication skills in general, compartmentalization/avoidance, fixed mindset, ego, etc. And to be honest, laziness, which is the hardest one to understand since it seems his need is to be needed, but it's kind of hard to make yourself needed by someone if your effort is so low, unless their standards are really low!
If your H does this, well nothing can be done about it unless he addresses it in IC or its something he works on if you were to ever recon.
This is what the future relies on in my opinion. I have things to improve but I'm in IC, I've always been a learner and willing to change. H on the other hand has a very black and white view of things, doesn't believe people or behaviors can change, and I've noticed he does have a pattern of just "switching off" with people - not just me. When all of this started going down I very quickly realized that any attempt to ask him to work on things, whether with me or by himself, whether with a counselor or with a friend, his parents, or whoever, was for naught. He simply doesn't want to do it or doesn't think he needs it or figures he can do it himself.
I'm a fixer and as I've said before, part of what kills me is knowing that things COULD be fixed, that it's not a fundamental compatibility problem, but rather the other person simply doesn't want to do it. He has things to figure out and address himself. I know that and would definitely require that if he were to come back and act like he wanted R. As optimistic and hopeful and yes, I suppose happy as I would be... I have a long list of things in my head that he would have to agree to in order for me to even attempt to have a relationship with him again. I know it would not just be "back to normal". I know that even if him being around puts me back into a comfort zone, there will be a TON of things I would no longer accept or be comfortable with (him sleeping in another room, phone secrecy, the way he communicates, division of household work, norms around communicating in general about how he's feeling, what he needs, and ensuring we have regular check-ins...)
As I said before, the number one thing I think I did wrong in choosing him as a mate was not placing higher value on the growth mindset. He seemed so laid back that I never thought it would be an issue - we seemed to balance each other out well, with me being a little more organized and him being more "blow with the wind". Now I realize that the lack of stance isn't because there wasn't one, but rather I didn't know what it was and was never going to be able to influence what it was as a result. And I think part of that is because he really thinks he can "handle" and avoid things, not as if it's an intentional, malicious act toward me. But that's what he has to face up to: putting two and two together and realizing how his avoidance and internalization causes the issues it does, both for others and within himself.
Okay so I went out and GALed tonight. Went to dinner with a neighbor. Was excited because I'd been craving the food for the restaurant we went to for like a week.
Long story short there's a waiter there that I would see when me and H would go to this restaurant all the time. I've been a few times without H since everything has happened - once completely alone for lunch, and then this time with my neighbor. This waiter recognizes me every time and is always super nice.
Tonight he mentioned how he hadn't seen me in a while. I acknowledged it but kind of left it at that. But then he came by again when he dropped the checks and said something about how he hasn't seen us, and then I just showed him my hand without the ring like, yeah, it's because we're not together.
That then spiraled into this guy telling me how about 6-8 months ago his W split from him too out of the blue! And how you think something is so good and then all of a sudden it's not. He told me did work a lot but she also wanted a lot from him, so it was a double-edged sword . Apparently they have two children together. He told me how he went into a depression for a while, etc. I could totally see the upset in his eyes and as he was talking to me. I told him it wasn't his fault, and he told me I'd be okay after I briefly told him what happened with me and H, and he said things happen for a reason and all that same stuff everyone tells you..
And then in the middle of it he was like "I have to get back to work!" and he scurried off. But then I had this crazy moment where I told myself you know what... I want to give this guy my number. I asked my neighbor if I should and she was convinced he was flirting with me so much that if I didn't write my number down, she would do it for me!
So I wrote my number on the receipt with a note that just said "if you want to talk". At the end of the day I'm not sure if it was good idea or if I read the guy right but ultimately either nothing will happen or maybe we will become friends or maybe more (although with two children from a past marriage I feel that would be a huge barrier, given the difficulty it was for me with H and his son...but people are different and you never know I suppose).
The important thing to me is that I did it. I put myself out there, I had a little bit of a "spark" in me that became interested in this guy, and I got the feeling that he was a good man who cared about his relationships... and I'm not sure if either of us would be ready for something, but again...even as friends or whatever, it might be good to make a connection. And I didn't feel guilty about what would H think or whatever. I was and am still nervous as hell regarding what I would do if this guy were to actually contact me...but I am open to it. I think it was progress of some sort. I am proud of myself even if nothing comes of it!
Of course, I confessed to my mom because I was proud (and had a few drinks..) and she focused on the fact that he was a waiter and how I need to get more confidence and set the bar higher. I told her I don't associate the worth of a person with their job and she said she doesn't either but in all reality, she totally does, and even said I need to go for someone "richer". Eff that, I've seen plenty of rich douchebags and I am all about the person, but I do understand her hesitation given the sitch with my H and his inconsistency in jobs, etc.
For me, I am always going to know that I can provide for myself. Do I want and value another person to elevate that and do even more amazing things and appreciate that? 100%. But if I meet someone that's amazing and cares for me and meets all the other features I know is needed in a good relationship, and who doesn't mind that I have my own thing going on because they are secure in themselves and appreciate that about me, I don't give a crap if he's a janitor. May he be the most motivated and passionate janitor on earth!!
So yeah I hope you all are proud of my GAL!!
You go girl!!! Even if nothing comes of it, who cares. Sounds like he might be friend material. I’d probably steer clear of anything more. Mostly because he seems emotional about it still. Don’t want to be a rebound. Having a friend who is going through a similar situation might be good though. It is tough for people who haven’t been there. Mostly what you hear from them is “you’re better off”... “there’s plenty of fish in the sea”... etc... I get what they are trying to do but it’s not overly helpful. I agree with you about someone’s job not being a way to measure who they are as people. There are plenty of rich jerks out there.
Thank you DejaVu! I agree and had the same thought about BOTH of us not really being "ready" but like you said, even if it's just as friends that would be good in my book! And I know I'd probably be the slowest person to "warm up" to a new relationship on earth at this point...but would also welcome the opportunity to form a meaningful connection with someone.
There were things he said in the span of like 5 minutes talking to me pretty much as a total stranger where I was like OMG NO DON'T YOU DO THAT TO YOURSELF (like blaming himself for things). I consciously thought that without any additional expectation whatsoever, it would be great for us just to talk!
If I really want to jump to the wild possibilities of the situation (because you know I already have) I thought about how I think I would do if I DID want to date a guy who has TWO kids, both a few years younger than H's son. It was already hard enough for me to fit into a step parent role with him...but I'm also convinced part of that had to do with H's personality and parenting style.
I've actually been on the fence about whether I want kids of my own and kind of stressed about if for a few years not wanting to make the "wrong" choice either way (not having kids and regretting it later, or having kids and feeling like it held me back from the life I wanted, or it just stressing me out and not being able to handle it... although I know people rarely admit that). The past few years in my M and especially now, I'm starting to feel like it's one of those intuition things where it's not necessarily me, but how I perceived my H as a parent as well, that affected my feelings on children with him.
I've honestly had feelings that maybe if certain parts of H's personality or habits were more aligned with mine in terms of parenting, I would have been more willing to start a family with him... in other words, maybe it's not that I don't want kids full stop, but more that I had an intuition about who a good partner would be to have them with. I am definitely thankful now that I didn't have kids with H... sometimes I ask myself if maybe that's one of those things he was unhappy with that "caused" all this, because he always said he would have a "herd" of children (but would claim he was okay with whatever I wanted)
I also get the impression that OW is all about babies, because she's young and thinks that's all cute and #lifegoals and she has friends who have had babies pretty young... and because of things her Ex BF has told me. So I have these images in my head of H thinking of her as like this fertile ground to procreate, even though he's older now and I truthfully don't know if he'd REALLY want that. Although since he has also developed some minor "performance" issues in the past year (which I couldn't care less about) I wonder if that had something to do with it too and him feeling a need to "prove" himself.
All of this just to say that I'm trying to figure out if in the future, anyone with kids from a prior relationship will be just as hard as it was with H... or if it may be different/easier for me to handle with a different person.
Not trying to figure it all out now for sure. Just content with the fact that I had an enjoyable night!
Hey everyone. Just wanted to let you know I GALed as promised on Sunday and had some friends over at the house. We made some food and drinks and just hung out for a while.
I ended up pulling out the smudge kid my coworker gave me for the house and they did a little thing with me to cast 3 bad things out and invite 3 good things in while we smudged the entire home. I was really touched because before we started doing that, one of them said an affirmation over ME, and then as I did the rest of the smudging they all followed behind me and one of my friends carried a sign I bought about courage and honesty, etc. because she wanted me to know that the words have been carried over the whole home.
It was really cool to see my friends get so into it and really care about the "ritual". I had no idea they'd do that. Also, I told them I still had a bottle of champagne engraved for our wedding day (ironically something my coworkers also gave me 4 years ago) that for whatever reason me and H never drank (symbolism in that I guess...). Since our anniversary is coming up I told them I figured it would be more appropriate for us all to drink it, so that's what we did! After I explained what it was and cried a few tears of course, but that was over after a minute and a few good hugs.
Had a lot of fun and didn't want them to go but also felt really good that I had them over - despite also not having my crap together because I had hoped to have food done when they arrived and I was so behind but then they just pitched in and helped me chop stuff up and get it done. They also live a ways away from me so it was very nice to have everyone together. I love them!
So I'm feeling pretty good right now overall. Not really worried or anxious about much at the moment. I don't believe that it's a permanent feeling but I am definitely making note of it and being "present" in it and owning it, hopefully to make the next "cycle" easier.
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Milestones of Moving On (?)