New thread.
Old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...140#Post2794140Summary: W having affair, feels I have emotionally abused her. I have work to do on myself to become more confident and detach (lovingly!). I think I am reeeally close to confronting about affair and taking back the bedroom.
Omg. W is planning to go to Lake Tahoe for a week in mid-July. Showed up on our shared calendar today. What is her game? I don't want to pay for that.
I find myself wanting to confront W about affair, and stand up for myself, but I am hung up on what I can actually do that wouldn't just be controlling. I could close joint accounts saying I can't trust her with our finances, but legally our marital assets equally belong to her, and she is free to max out her own personal credit card. We are in a community property state so in divorce I would still be liable for her spending either way (I still am not sure wife understands how that works). Her using her own card would help me detach in that I wouldn't be hit daily by her purchases. And she is free to open up more credit cards, and she may claim I am financially abusing her. I also see that doing nothing isn't good for me either. W's behavior is costing me a lot of money, and there is no end in sight for her spending and affair.
STH17,
You're full of excuses for not taking the situation by the b@lls and making it real.
1. Get online and open your own checking account at your current bank. Stash some cash in that account.
2. Get your own credit card from that same bank.
3. Close-out or lower the limit on your existing credit card.
4. Get boxes and tape for your lovely wife. Lowe's and Home Depot both have a good selection of boxes.
5. While you're getting boxes, buy some new locks for the doors. The lock packages will have a number on them, if you get all of your locks with the same number, you'll be able to use the same key for all of the locks.
6. Put the boxes and tape next to your wife's favorite place to sit and get her to sit down and have the discussion.
Ba dum pa...it's all did.
5. While you're getting boxes, buy some new locks for the doors. The lock packages will have a number on them, if you get all of your locks with the same number, you'll be able to use the same key for all of the locks.
Even better, Kwikset uses SmartKey so you don't have to worry about matching as you can easily rekey their locks to a common key.
I find myself wanting to confront W about affair, and stand up for myself, but I am hung up on what I can actually do that wouldn't just be controlling.
Okay, let's talk about this. But first, could you answer a few questions? Has the status of the MR been established? In other words, does she consider you as "in-house separated"? Has she clearly stated her future intentions?
Did she ask you to leave the bedroom, or did you volunteer?
So, the counselor used the "abuse" word. Do you feel that your W uses it as her excuse to spend money, or anything else she sees fit? Is she currently seeing that counselor?
Did your W's affair begin before or after you started sleeping in separate bedrooms? Has there ever been inappropriate behavior in the past?
When you mentally picture confronting your W about her affair, what do see her doing.......or what are the results of this confrontation? This is not a trick question, so I hope you'll answer it. I think it is important.
I also see that doing nothing isn't good for me either. W's behavior is costing me a lot of money, and there is no end in sight for her spending and affair.
Get whatever legal consultation that's available. Learn what you can do.....and what you have no power over. Get advice from the professionals.
Your emotions may reside in panic palace, making you feel that you must "do" something. This is when a lot of LBH's make big mistakes. He feels as if he is sitting back and not fighting for his M. Becoming informed is the first action to take. Do you have a lawyer? Get the legal information and advice regarding bank accounts, credit cards and her spending. Get answers to your questions regarding separation and/or divorce and where you stand.
Omg. W is planning to go to Lake Tahoe for a week in mid-July. Showed up on our shared calendar today. What is her game? I don't want to pay for that.
Unlink the calendar. She knows you can see it, and is using that for nefarious purposes.
I also see that doing nothing isn't good for me either. W's behavior is costing me a lot of money, and there is no end in sight for her spending and affair.
Talk to a lawyer or 2. Get advice. Get prepared.
Okay, let's talk about this. But first, could you answer a few questions? Has the status of the MR been established? In other words, does she consider you as "in-house separated"? Has she clearly stated her future intentions?
Did she ask you to leave the bedroom, or did you volunteer?
She screamed at me to leave the house back in November, saying she needed space and wasn't healing with me there. I complied but came back home to the couch in Feb. because I thought R stood a better chance with me in the house and working on the MR. At the time I thought it was the right thing to do.
I don't think we've ever used the words "in-house separated" to each other, but that's what it is. Haven't shared a bed in 7 months.
So, the counselor used the "abuse" word. Do you feel that your W uses it as her excuse to spend money, or anything else she sees fit? Is she currently seeing that counselor?
I assume she will resume seeing that counselor if/when she finishes the more intensive therapy she is in now. She is transitioning to 3hr/day, 3x/week intensive outpatient therapy starting this Friday. She is being discharged from the partial hospitalization program today. She made a comment this morning that she thought the hospital staff thought she was in denial. She said she probably was at first. Would I ever love to know what she thought she was in denial about.
For my part, I won't deny the accusation of emotional abuse anymore after having read just some of the Stosny book. I think that book is a great resource I need more time with. I haven't talked about it with W.
I do think her spending has been in part to spite me (she's admitted to this in the past), but mostly to try to make herself feel better, that she was worth spending money on. I think that's a core hurt of hers. I can and have empathized with that hurt, though have only done so once at the beginning of our separation. I disagree with her method of attempting to heal that core hurt but tried to give her space with it, since letting her make her own decisions about money was a 180 for me. My own resentment comes from then not feeling like I have any money available to spend on myself. In the marriage I want, we would both have equal spending allotments each month.
I think all her behaviors since the "abuse" label have been her defiantly and angrily trying to claim her own core value she blames me for destroying. Finding her core value is absolutely something I think she needs to do, as do I. I have judged she is doing it in a spiteful and bitter way. But maybe it just feels that way to me because she is rejecting me. Or it feels like rejection to me when it is really more about her self-protection.
Did your W's affair begin before or after you started sleeping in separate bedrooms? Has there ever been inappropriate behavior in the past?
As far as I know, affair started after separation. Never any inappropriate behavior in the past like flirting, though over the span of our relationship I can think of three or four men she has talked about with a kind of admiration I never heard her speak of me. Like she would have crushes, but maybe her self-esteem was too low to flirt. I never made a big issue about it, but I probably should have told her how it made me feel. I felt jealous and anxious when she talked like that, but I thought I shouldn't make a big deal of it so I didn't talk about it. That's how I approached all conflicts or negative thoughts/resentments towards my wife, and I think that's why I ended up emotionally abusing her, because I didn't know what to do with those feelings I thought I wasn't supposed to have about her.
When you mentally picture confronting your W about her affair, what do see her doing.......or what are the results of this confrontation? This is not a trick question, so I hope you'll answer it. I think it is important.
If she doesn't just flat-out deny it or walk away saying "I don't have to tell you anything", I think she will get angry and spew at me. I think she would try to justify the affair with her belief that we don't have a marriage and never did, and that she should not be shamed for wanting something better than our relationship which has been so damaging to her. My therapist has been trying to get me to stop worrying about what W will do and just act in accordance to my values. Have I answered this question well enough? The harder question to answer which my therapist asked me is, what do I hope to gain from confronting. I answered that I would just gain some self-respect and feel able to stand up for myself. I think I want to not be in a powerless position in the MR anymore, playing the role of the unforgivable abuser. But wanting to take back power is the kind of thing an abuser would do, which has me unsure of myself like W has me in a double-bind. That's the real thing I want, is clarity and confidence in these situations that I am acting from my core value, not just making power-grabs. That's what I hope to learn from the Stosny book.
I also see that doing nothing isn't good for me either. W's behavior is costing me a lot of money, and there is no end in sight for her spending and affair.
Get whatever legal consultation that's available. Learn what you can do.....and what you have no power over. Get advice from the professionals.
Your emotions may reside in panic palace, making you feel that you must "do" something. This is when a lot of LBH's make big mistakes. He feels as if he is sitting back and not fighting for his M. Becoming informed is the first action to take. Do you have a lawyer? Get the legal information and advice regarding bank accounts, credit cards and her spending. Get answers to your questions regarding separation and/or divorce and where you stand.
I have met with a lawyer for a consultation. I think W has told me she has done the same, though I haven't told W I have met with a lawyer. I guess a question I need answered is whether asset division works from a snapshot at the time of filing, or could start from an earlier agreed separation date. Then I could proceed with the financial separation and getting my own account more confidently.
As for the Lake Tahoe thing, I just realized it is possible that she may just be going with her parents, since they are Diamond Resort timeshare members and they have invited us along on similar trips in the past. That would make more sense for her to have put it on the shared calendar. She also put down a date for her sister who lives across the country to visit. And this morning she mentioned a family party she wanted to go to this weekend with our son. So maybe she was just talking to her mom last night while I was out and made all these plans. I already knew about the party this weekend, and that she didn't want me to go with her. No big deal there, but my sister's son is being baptized and I wanted to go to that. Since both things are 2 hours away in our shared hometown, we will be driving together. That will be an awkward drive.
I read in DR today that it is necessary to put one's own needs aside while DBing. A 180 for me though is to actually voice my needs. One cheeseless tunnel for me was to do all the chores in the house without asking for help. I thought I was doing a 180 with that by doing it without resentment. That was unsustainable long-term though, and my resentment has returned, especially with discovery of the affair. And with resentment being the root of my emotional abuse towards W, I need to do something different. I think that means asking for W to share in household responsibilities, and stop doing them myself if she does not want to participate. Idunno, I've been thinking about this more today after reading some of DR. But maybe LRT is better fitted now? In which case just assert that I won't be making dinner for W anymore because I can't sustain that imbalance? We actually made plans to share cooking responsibilities after one night that I went out to eat with son and (purposefully, anxiously) didn't get W anything, and fridge was near empty. That got W's attention in a big way, but I thought I handled it sloppily by not informing her I would not be taking responsibility for her food anymore. We haven't talked about who cooks meals since she started this hospitalization program. I stepped in as usual to cover for her. I think she's well enough to cook now though, so if she declines, I think I should set a boundary that I will not cook for her anymore. I then expect her to spend more money on takeout, but oh well. Addressing financial concerns comes next.
I never did clarify to W that I would not fight a divorce if W files herself, but that she needs to file separately. My therapist still wants me to have that conversation with W, and I am supposed to practice it with my therapist tomorrow in my appointment, along with confronting about affair, if that is the best thing to do. I'm starting to think it's not, but don't know what else to do which will help me recover my own core value and make decisions for my future rather than letting W drag me along for a ride.
I felt jealous and anxious when she talked like that, but I thought I shouldn't make a big deal of it so I didn't talk about it. That's how I approached all conflicts or negative thoughts/resentments towards my wife, and I think that's why I ended up emotionally abusing her, because I didn't know what to do with those feelings I thought I wasn't supposed to have about her.
can you explain how you abused her emotionally?
Quote:
When you mentally picture confronting your W about her affair, what do see her doing.......or what are the results of this confrontation? This is not a trick question, so I hope you'll answer it. I think it is important.
If she doesn't just flat-out deny it or walk away saying "I don't have to tell you anything", I think she will get angry and spew at me. I think she would try to justify the affair with her belief that we don't have a marriage and never did, and that she should not be shamed for wanting something better than our relationship which has been so damaging to her. My therapist has been trying to get me to stop worrying about what W will do and just act in accordance to my values. Have I answered this question well enough?
IDK, b/c I still don't know what it is you wish to gain by confronting her.
The harder question to answer which my therapist asked me is, what do I hope to gain from confronting.
That was actually what I was wondering, but I stated it poorly.
I answered that I would just gain some self-respect and feel able to stand up for myself. I think I want to not be in a powerless position in the MR anymore, playing the role of the unforgivable abuser. But wanting to take back power is the kind of thing an abuser would do, which has me unsure of myself like W has me in a double-bind. That's the real thing I want, is clarity and confidence in these situations that I am acting from my core value, not just making power-grabs. That's what I hope to learn from the Stosny book.
Is that what the counselor told you? That you were an unforgiving abuser? That counselor used some very harsh words and they took a heavy toll on you. Did this counselor have IC sessions with your W before ever having a joint session?
Do you see yourself as a man who abused his W, or are you learning from the book you mentioned? Again I have to ask........how did you abuse her emotionally.
Is that what the counselor told you? That you were an unforgiving abuser? That counselor used some very harsh words and they took a heavy toll on you. Did this counselor have IC sessions with your W before ever having a joint session?
I think the counseling-therapy profession is filled with charlatans. That's unfortunate because there are some very good therapists but it's difficult to figure out who the good ones are.
My first IC (sort-of MC), didn't really seem to be providing much value. I'd never been in IC before so I had nothing to compare her to, and I didn't look deeply into her background before selecting her. As it turns out, her PhD was in music, not psychology. When I finally stumbled upon the counselor that became my MC, it became clear just how useless my previous IC was. It was literally like night and day.
I don't think a good IC would call you an unforgiving abuser unless there were some truly horrendous circumstances, and if that were the case, then the IC should be telling your wife to run away as quickly as possible. So, I smell a rat.
Is that what the counselor told you? That you were an unforgiving abuser? That counselor used some very harsh words and they took a heavy toll on you. Did this counselor have IC sessions with your W before ever having a joint session?
Do you see yourself as a man who abused his W, or are you learning from the book you mentioned? Again I have to ask........how did you abuse her emotionally.
Minor correction, I wrote unforgivable, not unforgiving. And no, those are not the words the MC used. In fact I remember it more like him trying to break the news gently to both of us that my behavior amounted to emotional abuse, but that he was saying that more as a diagnosis and place to start healing from for both of us, not as any kind of harsh accusation towards me or pronouncement that our relationship was unrecoverable. But I think that revelation with the label gave W something to point to as the source of all her unhappiness, i.e. it was my fault because she was the victim of emotional abuse. That same appointment was the last one we did together with MC and it was decided he would work with W alone, at W's request and counselor's recommendation. That was supposed to be for her to heal, and was also about the same time I started staying with friends. I feel like MC left me hanging, and should have continued guiding me as well.
As for how I have emotionally abused W, I think that is easiest to answer by being honest with the resentments I've had toward her. I resented her for spending money on things I thought were unnecessary and not budgeting with me in a way that allowed me to have equal spending. I'm a saver, she's a spender. I criticized most purchases she made. Most decisions she made or wanted to make, I suggested something that I thought was better, and often wouldn't let it go if she disagreed with me. I think that's been a big one, not supporting her decisions.
I've never been comfortable with unpleasant emotions, always wanting to banish them from myself and others around me, so I would tell my wife she shouldn't feel certain things, like she shouldn't be as hurt as she was by something someone did to her, because that person probably didn't mean to hurt her. That's the kind of thing I tell myself, and it works for me (well I thought it did, maybe it just represses my emotions). But that was invalidating of W's emotions, and she stopped feeling safe talking to me. It's like my response to her feeling bad was just "don't feel that way, you shouldn't feel that way".
I am learning from the Stosney book that walling off my own emotions from both myself and my W is a form of emotional abuse towards her as well. I would shut down in the face of W's criticism, because I felt inadequate. Conversations with W about difficult subjects would often result in long silences from me, not sure what to say, leaving W in an anxious state feeling abandoned. Those kinds of interactions are the ones I've been most resistant to the abuse label, since I typically was feeling helpless myself, not intentionally stonewalling. So I still have to sort that out but the book is helping me do that. I see that W and I both have been hurt by each other, and I want to be a better person myself.
Do you see yourself as a man who abused his W, or are you learning from the book you mentioned?
I do accept that my behavior was emotionally abusive, but I do not see myself as "a man who abused his wife" as though that is my identity. I am a man who loves his wife and son and is worthy of being loved. That's the kind of self-respect I want to reclaim by confronting W about the affair. After writing this I still feel conflicted about it though.
I don't think a good IC would call you an unforgiving abuser unless there were some truly horrendous circumstances, and if that were the case, then the IC should be telling your wife to run away as quickly as possible. So, I smell a rat.
I am smelling something, too.
Anyone can claim someone has been emotionally abusive. You could be a little quite one day b/c you just weren't feeling physically well.......and she could claim you were being withdrawn and cold. See what I mean? While in her IC sessions, she could have over dramatized your behavior and had the counselor agreeing you were emotionally abusive. Heck, I could explain my H's actions and a counselor would say it was emotional abuse! However, I know the
truth.
For my part, I won't deny the accusation of emotional abuse anymore after having read just some of the Stosny book. I think that book is a great resource I need more time with. I haven't talked about it with W.
Her IC and your IC to use the abuse word. Yet, you have not told us how you abused her emotionally. Can you tell us? If you can't, then I have to question the counselors.
I suggest you not mention the book to your W. The less said to her about you being her abuser, the better. Actions are what count.
she is doing it in a spiteful and bitter way. But maybe it just feels that way to me because she is rejecting me. Or it feels like rejection to me when it is really more about her self-protection.
She is acting like a selfish WW. I want you to stop believing you are a monster that deserves anything she throws in your face. Understand? If you made mistakes, then stop repeating those behaviors and start acting in a healthy way. If you don't know how, then become educated. You are so beaten down, and I could see why......having counselors accuse you of emotionally abusing your W. I have seen emotional abuse in action, and although I am no expert..........(well, I will keep the rest of those comments for another time).
As far as I know, affair started after separation. Never any inappropriate behavior in the past like flirting, though over the span of our relationship I can think of three or four men she has talked about with a kind of admiration I never heard her speak of me. Like she would have crushes, but maybe her self-esteem was too low to flirt.
These "crushes" sound as if they were emotional affairs. She could have an emotional affair with one of these guys, and he might never suspect she had feelings for him. Most times, IMHO, it is some romantic fantasy she has about the guy. If she feeds that fantasy, it can grow to the point of really affecting her R with her H.
. I felt jealous and anxious when she talked like that, but I thought I shouldn't make a big deal of it so I didn't talk about it.
Did you ever consider that she was trying to make you jealous?
That's how I approached all conflicts or negative thoughts/resentments towards my wife, and I think that's why I ended up emotionally abusing her, because I didn't know what to do with those feelings I thought I wasn't supposed to have about her.
My H did the very same thing. It made me act worse! I was trying to get some kind of response out of him. He was like a piece of dead wood. Nothing! I thought I could be scr@wing some guy in the front yard and my H would show no reaction. But when I really did have an A, I saw a side of him I never wanted to see again.
I have met with a lawyer for a consultation. I think W has told me she has done the same, though I haven't told W I have met with a lawye
Okay, good. Don't volunteer to tell her that you've met with one, but if she asks, just say that you have, and leave it at that. As much as you may hate this, you have to look out for your best interests from this point forward. She does not feel love or compassion toward you, and she doesn't want to save the M. Rather than you trying to prove to her what an
improved H you would be if she'd only give it a chance.......you have to look at the MR as two entities. Do this to get a balanced perspective of your situation.
She has been given the role of victim, while you've been labeled abuser. Whether that is true or exaggerated, you need to stop
looking the guilty part. IMHO, her actions appear more vindictive than self-protective. At any rate, don't bring up the topic of abuse. Stop sharing topic discussions about the books you are reading, or how you are "working to improve yourself", and things of that nature. The more that subject is brought up, the more she is going to
use it to destroy whatever is left of the M. I'm not saying this is something to be swept under the rug, but as stated previously, something doesn't smell quite right. Let her work it out with her therapist and you work it out with yours. Make sense?
I already knew about the party this weekend, and that she didn't want me to go with her. No big deal there, but my sister's son is being baptized and I wanted to go to that. Since both things are 2 hours away in our shared hometown, we will be driving together. That will be an awkward drive
She's going to a party and doesn't want you along? My suggestion is to take separate vehicles. You leave whenever you like, without having to wait for her, or even communicate while there. Look, you are either separated or you aren't. If you are separated, then you should act/show that you're separated. That's JMHO.
Here's my suggestion in how to confront her......and taking back the MBR, of that's the route you want to take. I would simply go get in the bed, and when she protests, you tell her that this sleeping arrangement is not working for you. "
Since you are the one who has opened the door to a third party, I no longer feel compelled to accommodate your sleeping preferences. You can sleep here or elsewhere, but I am staying". You know, of course, she'll claim you are being abusive.
If you actually fear some
physical altercation from her, then you need to find somewhere else to live, until all of this has been settled. If you think she would physically attack you, or call the cops and falsely accuse you of something.........then it's not worth it, IMHO. I would be looking for another place, and filing for a D, but that's just me! That's not anti-DBing, that's being safe and protecting yourself and your future custody rights.
You have to weigh everything and decide which is most important to you. Is it more important for you to sleep in your bed again? Is it more important to let her know you are aware of her A? Are you willing to deal with her reaction? That's something only you can answer.
I read in DR today that it is necessary to put one's own needs aside while DBing. A 180 for me though is to actually voice my needs.
Give an example of one of your needs. Learning to do this in the right time frame is very important.
I never did clarify to W that I would not fight a divorce if W files herself, but that she needs to file separately. My therapist still wants me to have that conversation with W, and I am supposed to practice it with my therapist tomorrow in my appointment, along with confronting about affair, if that is the best thing to do. I'm starting to think it's not, but don't know what else to do which will help me recover my own core value and make decisions for my future rather than letting W drag me along for a ride.
Why is it necessary to tell her you don't want a D?
Look, I am here to try and support who I can. I am for saving the M whenever possible. Sometimes, a period of physical separation helps the couple to focus on themselves rather than the faults of each other. Whenever the abuse word is being used a lot, I especially think a period of physical separation is needed, in order to heal and have a better chance of reconciliation in the future. I think in-house separation is one of the most damaging things a LBS can do. These are just my thoughts.
She's going to a party and doesn't want you along? My suggestion is to take separate vehicles. You leave whenever you like, without having to wait for her, or even communicate while there. Look, you are either separated or you aren't. If you are separated, then you should act/show that you're separated. That's JMHO.
I would take separate vehicles, but we only have one that would make that trip. Maybe I could tell her I'm taking that car, and she can ride in the back seat. Or she can take the other car since she didn't mind driving it an hour last weekend. She even asked me yesterday if I would watch our son after the party she's going to because there's somewhere else she wants to go. The shakiness in her voice and her fidgeting told me she's up to no good. Since I hadn't confronted her yet, I just said, yeah I'll watch our son. I'm not going to control her behavior by forcing her to take our son. Not going to use son in that way. Anyway, since that party is this weekend, and she starts her 3-hour therapy session tomorrow, tonight seems like a good time to take the bed and confront her. She can talk about it in therapy, if she has the guts. I am really curious if she has been open about her affair in therapy.
Here's my suggestion in how to confront her......and taking back the MBR, of that's the route you want to take. I would simply go get in the bed, and when she protests, you tell her that this sleeping arrangement is not working for you. "Since you are the one who has opened the door to a third party, I no longer feel compelled to accommodate your sleeping preferences. You can sleep here or elsewhere, but I am staying". You know, of course, she'll claim you are being abusive.
This is pretty much how I'm envisioning it going and how I planned to go about it. A very compassionate friend thought I should tell her I'm taking the bed before just lying down in it. Just lying in the bed and taking it seems a little passive-aggressive. Or does just taking the bed make it a stronger message like "of course I'm taking the bed and you have no right to keep me out of it."
Give an example of one of your needs. Learning to do this in the right time frame is very important.
I guess what I mean here is simply that I have a need not to be cuckolded, and that's what it feels like to not confront W about the affair, and to just agree to watch son so she can go out alone. I know it won't stop her if she knows I know, but I wa I don't give up my bed to a woman who is having an affair and doesn't have the decency to tell me.
Why is it necessary to tell her you don't want a D?
This was supposed to also be so I would be in integrity with my values for my commitment to the marriage. But insisting I don't want a divorce in no way helps me stop the divorce or my W's waywardness, right? I think now it's just more about telling W to do most of the work of the divorce, because I've got my own life to carry on with. I thought I would take a stand by telling her she'll have to file by herself rather than jointly with me, but I'm not sure I gain anything from that anymore either. I want W to return to the marriage, and I don't believe it is "irretrievably broken", but that is just me knowing that W
could repair our relationship if she so chose. People come back from worse, right?
Well I actually did something. Here's how it went: I put my pillow and blanket on bed while W was in bathroom. Told her through the door I wanted to talk. She asked if we could talk after she showered. I said no I had to go to bed soon. She finished washing her face (takes five minutes). Meanwhile I try to breathe and calm myself in son's room where he's sleeping. She comes out of bathroom I request we go downstairs to talk. I start with "you want a divorce right? I'm not standing in the way of that. That's your choice you've made to leave the marriage. You can file and I'll work on the negotiations with you. You've made it clear you don't value this marriage. From the behaviors I've witnessed I believe you're having an affair. I'm not going to ignore that."
Here I let myself be baited a little, as she wasn't saying anything and looked to me like she was smirking and enjoying this. I said "I see your wry smile". She says "I wasn't smiling". Fine, whatever. Maybe it was just because she was leaning her cheek on her fist.
I continued: "I'm going to have to start prioritizing my own self-care. That means things will be changing." Might have been here that she said she agreed. I finished with "Part of that's is that I'm not sleeping on the couch anymore, im sleeping in the bed." She said "you're kicking me out of the bedroom?" Not incredulously, just for clarification it seemed. I think I said "I'm sleeping in the bed, I'm not sleeping on the couch while you're having an affair."
And then I went to bed, and she followed to collect her pillows and blanket. I think we both got some of what we wanted. Unfortunately what I also got was a tick crawling on my ankle shortly thereafter because W was out in long grass today. Oh well, all the more reason to strip the bed of W's new sheets she bought herself. Doesn't feel like progress towards R, but it feels good to do at least something for myself. Hope I can keep that feeling and not regret it later. What's done is done, and more decisions will have to be made.
Overall, W's response was pretty much just apathetic. No drama at all. Either the meds and therapy had something to do with that, or she just doesn't care at all. Or had been waiting for this conversation for a while. She texted me after her shower to ask if I'd still watch son tomorrow, and if I would agree to be on the same page with her about him. I agreed, saying I'd already told son I'd be taking care of him tomorrow.
I continued: "I'm going to have to start prioritizing my own self-care. That means things will be changing." Might have been here that she said she agreed. I finished with "Part of that's is that I'm not sleeping on the couch anymore, im sleeping in the bed." She said "you're kicking me out of the bedroom?" Not incredulously, just for clarification it seemed. I think I said "I'm sleeping in the bed, I'm not sleeping on the couch while you're having an affair."
Sorry.
Congratulations on taking your bed back! That's a huge first step in the right direction. Just be sure to take care of your financial stuff; she'll drain you dry if you let her.
Congrats! That seems like a big step, not just taking the bed back but having that conversation and standing up for yourself. It seems like you are on the right path!
STH, well done. Well handled. I think maybe your firm, cool resolve during this is why she handled it the way she did.
I wish there was an applause button here because I would push it for you!
Well done on getting the bed back. It is really a big victory.
I also want to add that whatever you believe, becomes your reality. Those beliefs are based on your values and morals. So make sure that you find you can clearly identify what you will and will not accept. Make it a very very thick line, one that not even you can cross.
Woman want a strong man, they want to be challenged, so even if things don't work out, you'll be strong for the next person.
My D threw me into an identity crisis, my XWW is still on her roller-coaster, i'm eating popcorn watching this crazy thing go past me. I've found it to be quite entertaining. You need to find a way to laugh, cos the only other option is tears. Tears from laughter is best though.
Have no doubt that when you get off her coaster, you will be the best man that you've been. So enjoy the ride/lesson.
W slept on the couch last night. She packed a suitcase while I was at work today. Looks like enough for an extended stay, not just the weekend. She also removed the art prints she recently hung in the bedroom. So she's at least moving out of the bedroom, could be out of the house. This doesn't feel like DBing, just feels like divorce. Shoul I be proactive and ask W how long she plans to be gone, so we can plan for childcare, or wait for her to bring it up herself? Didn't think all this through much past the confrontation. Just didn't want to keep her dirty secret anymore and be so self-effacing.
I would wait for her to bring it up. Consider what would make more of an impact, you reacting exactly like she'd expect you to, that is to call, pursue, want to know what's going on? Or just being cool, detached, calm, and not worrying about what she's doing.
DBing feels counter-intuitive. That is when you know you are doing it well.
Should I be proactive and ask W how long she plans to be gone, so we can plan for childcare, or wait for her to bring it up herself?
STH17,
I understand what Steve is saying, but it's important that your child is taken care of with as little strife as possible. If I were in your shoes, I would assume your wife is moving out and say something like, "Since you're moving out, we need to discuss child care." Also, if your child stays with you, then your wife will probably have to pay you child support even though you're still married.
I could be wrong about the best way to approach this, but I'd say children trump DB.
She's unemployed, so fat chance of her paying me anything. She was the one who asked me last night after confrontation if I was watching our son today, and said she wanted us to be on the same page with him, without him getting stuck between us. I thought child support only came into play when one parent is spending more time with child than the other. That hasn't been a problem yet, so I don't want to be the one make it a problem. I'm just pretty exhausted with all this at the moment. The next thing on my mind is the 2-hour trip tomorrow. I thought I could handle it like the bed, she can ride in the car or not, but I'll be driving with son at the previously agreed upon time.
Pity about her being unemployed, but as for your child i believe its best to play it cool, only be demanding if she is always never coming home. Keep things as simple for your son as possible.
DB'ing isn't really going to save your marriage, this is what almost everyone here can attest to. We all came here looking for the solution, but when we realised that the problem was us, the want-away spouse didn't matter anymore.
Have faith in the process, and in yourself. You really can't [censored] this up anymore than it already is - so relax, just relax.
oh, and one more thing. When it comes to love, we cannot decide whom we love. And if we cannot decide whom we love, then inversely, we cannot decide whom we do not love.
So if your wife is in love with someone else, it cannot be your fault, if you still love her, it cannot be your fault. The "easy" part is accepting your fate, and you will be able to do this by accepting hers.
Quick update: W asked if our plans had changed for tomorrow. I just said I still planned on going to the baptism. She said ok. I expect her to have an overnight stay with AP (or longer, with the packed bag I saw) but I'll be staying overnight with my son at my parents' house. Or maybe she's planning on staying with her family. Pretty sure her original plan was mischief though. Kind of feel like we're back to don't ask don't tell, but at least I'm not making undue sacrifices. She doesn't like to drive, but also thinks I'm an unsafe driver. I am thinking of asking her to drive and sitting in the back seat myself with my son. That saves me from her sitting there texting and facebooking and making plans with AP, which I think is what she did for her first encounter. If I have to I can be direct and say I won't have her in the car disrespecting me. But I know she is taking the car tomorrow for a date too. I guess I could say plans are changing and I'm keeping the car if I'm keeping our son, and she can borrow her parents car. Let her lie to them about why. Hm, wonder if that's worth it. It would be like trying to stop her from seeing AP. Not really worth my energy, is it? She'll find a way and just resent me more. Or maybe just maybe she'll respect me for not enabling her. Doubtful. Plan was she drops me off with my family, takes son to her family's party, then drops off son and car seat off with me to put in my mom's minivan. Then she would take the car off by herself and pick us up Sunday, no time set. I don't want to be at her mercy for when she chooses to pick us up while I suspect she is meeting with AP. Sigh.
I'm going running tomorrow morning with my church men's group. stopped going to church a while ago but the men's group is good. Excited for that.
So nothing came of the suitcase. It may be a just-in-case thing for her if she feels she needs to leave, or maybe just because she doesn't feel comfortable having all her clothes in the bedroom while I'm sleeping there. Don't think it's worth worrying about right now.
Weekend was fine, we rode together but didn't talk much either way. I drove going out, she drove coming back, didn't really even have to discuss it much. On the return trip I was trying to plan travel arrangements on my phone for a couple of weddings coming up in the next two weeks. When we were almost home I told W we needed to talk about it so that S4 was taken care of. That conversation went fine. I probably could have been a bit more mysterious, but I'm a little bit over playing those games too. If I can just be myself and not worry about what to say or not say to W, that's an improvement for myself.
This morning W brought up wanting to buy a car for herself again. She wants to sell our older vehicle that S4 can't ride in, and asked if I wanted to split the money from selling it. I was a little puzzled, and probably showed it on my face. An odd question when all her spending has been out of our joint account. I used the opportunity to say if we did that I didn't think it would make sense to keep sharing accounts, and we should take care of splitting those first. She agreed to that, and to taking herself off of our joint accounts. This was the conversation I'd been worried about having next.
She also wanted me to clarify what I meant when I said I would work on negotiations with her. She thinks if she files by herself, we'd have more court dates and the process would take longer and cost more than if we filed jointly. I told her I don't see much difference anymore between us filing jointly or her filing separately. In the end I told her I still couldn't file jointly with her, but she can file separately and I would work on the settlement agreement with her as if we were filing jointly. I think we both still are assuming a lot about the process, but she doesn't want to get lawyers involved and neither do I. I do think I'll be asking one some questions and make sure the agreement will be approved in court though.
She said she doesn't want anything other than to take her stuff, and I can keep mine. Seems a little simplistic to me. But I guess we have to start somewhere with negotiations, and that's a good place I think. I've been wanting to separate our finances for a while now. I wish I had this conversation with her 3 months ago.
We talked a bit about custody too, and where we'd be living. A lot of things I'd been worried about. I asked her if she thought we needed to make decisions about where to live together. She said it would affect primary custody. I think talking about that made me decide that if W chose to move back to our home state (something she still sounds sure of wanting), I probably would too, just because I wouldn't want S4 to be far from either of us.
Anyway, throughout the whole conversation I think I was pensive with furrowed brow. I don't think I felt much fear while having the conversation, even though it was one I have been afraid of having. I feel good about not avoiding it when it came up this time. W teared up a bit when she asked if I would wait until she was done with her therapy to remove her from our insurance. Which got me tearing up, and I said "I'm not going to keep you from getting healthcare. You know I care about you." That made me think of how in the past I've judged what was important for W to have or not have. I told her so, and apologized.
Divorce is stupid. It seems like we're just going to both go through these settlement agreement negotiations being the nicest and most compassionate we've ever been to each other, for the sole purpose of destroying a future that we had once promised to fill with love and compassion for the rest of our lives.
I agree. But you know, you're standing in the way of her happiness...
STH, I think you are missing a potential opportunity here to shake her from her fantasy fog. My W wanted a quickie, no lawyer, even filing online (yes there are websites claiming they can make it that simple) D. I wanted to know how to proceed legally with documenting some of her behaviors just in case, and contacted a lawyer. When she found out about that I could almost literally see that part of her fantasy bubble burst. I also said that I would be filing due to infidelity on her part (not really a thing anymore in our state, but still something I would be stating to people when they asked what happened).
That was one of the first moments I really saw her questioning her proclamation on BD other than moments of regret about what it meant for everyone including extended family. Her grandmother had just went on about how much she loved me at Christmas time and that pulled at my wife's heart strings.
LOL Doodler, I love you dude!
We talked a bit about custody too, and where we'd be living. A lot of things I'd been worried about. I asked her if she thought we needed to make decisions about where to live together
Would you explain what you meant by living together?
She said it would affect primary custody
Among your questions to ask a lawyer, be sure you get an adequate definition of "primary custody" and/or "primary residence". If you are wanting 50/50 custody, make certain you understand all the lingo attached to the custody wording.
STH, I think you are missing a potential opportunity here to shake her from her fantasy fog.
Yeah I think that's true. Later I was thinking I could have asked, since she's found somebody to replace me already, why doesn't she ask that person to pay all her medical bills? I could "change my mind" and still say that, but I just don't want to say something that hurtful to her. I think I'm still afraid of escalating conflict in the divorce. Like it really isn't going to be hard to come to an agreement. Filing myself is just an empty threat that doesn't do anything to stop divorce either. Even when she asked this morning if I'd file jointly, I still couldn't agree to that.
We talked a bit about custody too, and where we'd be living. A lot of things I'd been worried about. I asked her if she thought we needed to make decisions about where to live together
Would you explain what you meant by living together?
Poor wording. I meant make decisions together about where to live, not about living together. Like, we could each decide to live in a different state if we don't make that decision together. But then one of us would have to take primary placement (residence) for S4. W didn't sound like she had any strong feelings about who he would be placed with or how far apart we would be. After doing some reading today, it sounds like it would be best for my son if W and I ended up living close enough to each other that we could both be active in parenting and things like school pick-ups and drop-offs.
@doodle, good as always.
@STH17 - I think that you're being too much of a nice guy. I challenged the DB way, following its root and took some drastic steps. I even took myself off XWs medical aid, changed bank accounts, all to show that I didn't need her, but I still made it clear that I wanted her, but only if she wanted me back.
Turns out that she didn't want me back, and i filed for online D. She definitely never saw that moment coming and celebrated it at a lovers hill in cape town and pasted it on FB. Which she quickly removed.
You will never know your WWs heart, even her actions will be contradictory, but ultimately if she really wanted you, you'd know, like you knew before.
I called my bank yesterday and was told that the only way to remove W from joint accounts was to close them. I thought they would be able to remove her if she signed something herself. Apparently not. I think I should move forward with that. Unfortunately the closest bank branch is out-of-state an hour away. W and I didn't talk much about how to split accounts other than she'd keep hers and I'd keep mine. So based on that I could just not give her anything from the joint accounts (since I'm the only one who ever deposited into it). We also talked about splitting our current credit card debt though. I think if I pay for her medical bills now after separating our bank accounts, I will want to account for that in our settlement agreement. I expect to buy her out of the house, so I could just deduct the value of her medical payments from the buyout amount. I told her I would not keep her from getting healthcare, and I don't want to go back on my word with that.
hey,
I got to agree with the others on the money. You need take control of the finances. Letting her spend your money (the family money) is a terrible idea.
My therapist has been trying to get me to stop worrying about what W will do and just act in accordance to my values.
I think this is the key. Stop for a minute (or better for a few hours) and think really hard what your values are and how you act in accordance or in discord with them.
As for the Lake Tahoe thing, I just realized it is possible that she may just be going with her parents
You are pursuing. Of course it is possible that she is going with your parents. Forget about this. If it tortures you, get rid of the shared account, unfriend her on Facebook etc.
The harder question to answer which my therapist asked me is, what do I hope to gain from confronting.
This is key too. In general, it is best not to start a conversation with her, unless it has a very specific purpose (money etc.). In this case, it is even more important. Unless you have a very specific outcome in mind, there probably no reason to start this talk. In her eyes, she is entitled to this anyway.
One cheeseless tunnel for me was to do all the chores in the house without asking for help.
I stepped in as usual to cover for her. I think she's well enough to cook now though, so if she declines, I think I should set a boundary that I will not cook for her anymore.
Why? If the toilet leaks, fix it. Nobody likes that. Do not feel obliged to do chores for her though. I do not think you need to inform her (unless you have agreed before that). If she is upset about it, you can commiserate with her.
I never did clarify to W that I would not fight a divorce if W files herself, but that she needs to file separately.
What is the purpose of that conversation? I agree that you should be prepared for such conversation in case she brings it up. I do not see any purpose of you bringing it up. In my opinion, do not do anything. Let her file, and then do what you think is right.
I do not understand what you will accomplish by confronting her about the affair. She does not want this marriage. As far as I can tell, she constantly tries to point out reasons why the marriage should end. The one reason she has not pointed out is the affair (probably because of shame). IMO by confronting about A, you will empower her with the biggest trump to dissolve the marriage. Now the cat is out of the bag and she can use that as another argument.
IMO, there are only two situations where you want to bring up the A:
1) You want D, and you want to make it her fault (I do not know why you would want that).
2) She wants you back and you want her back too. If she wants you back but you do not, don't bring the affair either.
Me keeping my knowledge of W's affair a secret was for me like trying to lead a triple life. I still feel like I'm leading a double life, one where I set W free to divorce me and I move on without her, and another where I still desperately want to save our marriage.
I snoozed W on Facebook today, along with her cousin whose divorce was finalized a month or two ago. Funny thing is the cousin's H had an affair a year ago which is why she filed for divorce. I thought seeing how much it hurt her cousin would have made my W not do the same thing to me. Nope. Anyway, the cousin is a proudly petty person who still trash-talks her XH on FB, and I'd have to say has been a bad influence on my W.
I was about to take care of bank stuff today, but was getting pretty emotional and angry about it so I am going to do it tomorrow instead. I'll have to take my son with me. I might be able to remove my W from the credit card instead of having to close it. That would make a few things simpler and I could keep the rewards points on it. To do that she would have to sign a form to remove herself. That might be a good reality check for her. Or maybe empowering for her to take the next step towards divorce. Idunno. Whatever she thinks is whatever she thinks, right?
I'll also note that I've not put my ring back on since confronting W about A. But I've got it on a necklace. The jingling might be noticed by W...
You need to do whatever it takes to create the split in your lives, even if you do not like it. That split is the only reality that she will see, and will show you too, how difficult it is to do something so easy.
But you're not doing it for her, do it for you, see what it's like to be divorced before you actually are - it's a wake up call, but the sooner you do it, the quicker it will hit home with you.
After years of marriage, the familiarity keeps us on the others coaster. Get off hers, and onto yours and the ride will be smoother, more painful at first tho. But this is your life, not hers!
As for the medical aid, agreed, keep her on, and help get her off it at the same time. You cannot daddy her, she must live her life and take responsibility for it. As you need to with yours.
We can all promise you that in a year or two, you'll look back, think about what's occurred, and you will laugh about it. So cry now rather.
You need to take the ring off entirely. You need to exist as though she does not exist, a neighbour living in your house just waiting to move out.
Her cousin was not a bad influence, her cousin is just like her. Like seeks like. And yes, if your no good wife wants a divorce, give it to her. Give her everything that she must legally get, give her nothing more. She doesnt deserve your heart, so keep that for yourself.
You will get to point in this journey where you will learn to live with your broken heart. The 5 stages of grief are important here...
denial
anger
bargaining
depression
acceptance
you will find that you will go through these 5 many many times in 1 day. Too many times really, but face it head-on, don't give in, don't look back - you're not going that way.
Well. I just found out that the joint credit card we have and both do practically all of our spending on was created with my W as the primary account holder, and I'm the secondary/spouse on the card. So she would have to be the one to close that card. I guess I'll have to talk to W again after all about closing accounts. Sounds like she could close the account over the phone. I'll still have to close our checking and savings accounts in person.
Ugh. And now W has wised up to the fact that even if we separate our accounts now, everything is still up for grabs in the settlement. What happened to "you keep yours and I keep mine?" No leverage there to shake her out of the fog anymore. And she suggested mediation "to make sure we are doing everything right". So much for not getting lawyers involved either. She's finally starting to do her own homework. She told me if I stay in the house I would have to buy her out. I knew that already. I might have even told her that myself. I told her we'd talk later.
GRRRRR!!!
You might be able to get a free consultation with a lawyer, and ask some questions about the credit cards, joint accounts, etc.
No leverage there to shake her out of the fog anymore
It's still early. She may actually have to start living it before reality begins to dawn.
Ugh. And now W has wised up to the fact that even if we separate our accounts now, everything is still up for grabs in the settlement. What happened to "you keep yours and I keep mine?" No leverage there to shake her out of the fog anymore. And she suggested mediation "to make sure we are doing everything right". So much for not getting lawyers involved either. She's finally starting to do her own homework. She told me if I stay in the house I would have to buy her out. I knew that already. I might have even told her that myself. I told her we'd talk later.
GRRRRR!!!
Front look at it this way. Look at it as she's entitled to it, and if you love her you want to be as accommodating as you possibly can in the D settlement. This doesn't mean you do get work for her but squabbling over a dollar here or there hurts your sitch.
What do you think will make more of an impact? Bring accommodating or fighting her for every red cent. Most WAS expect a fight. Shock her by being loving and accommodating even in D.
Well I was all set to go to the local bank today to close a joint checking account we hardly use and only has $50 in it, then open a checking account for myself there. It's the same bank the mortgage is with (which is in my name only). Then I thought I could transfer the money from our other joint savings and checking accounts into the new one I make for myself, leaving W to handle making payments on the joint credit card that she is primary owner of.
So is that all just petty or would it actually be a bit of a reality check still for W? At the very least I think I should open an account for myself so I can have something I feel in control of. That's what I would really want in a marriage going forward anyway.
Are these things I should talk to W about? We agreed to separate accounts on Monday, but I feel like she is backing out of that agreement. She also said she wants to be fair, but nothing about her past spending has been fair during our marriage.
Bottom line is I don't want to share accounts with someone who doesn't want to share any other part of my life. Can I tell her that?
What do you think will make more of an impact? Bring accommodating or fighting her for every red cent. Most WAS expect a fight. Shock her by being loving and accommodating even in D.
I thought being so loving and accommodating for so long while she had no commitment to me or our marriage is what got me into this mess.
Definitely separate accounts. But be upfront and transparent with her about it. Dont just take money out of the shared accounts without talking to her first. If she wants to be independent and free, than this is a step in the right direction for her. My wife was fine with it when we did it.
Being loving and accommodating never really got you here. Your WW has fallen for another man, doesn't matter what you did.
There are many keys, as there are many doors in this horror house. One of them is to always think about others first, but then take the action that is best for you.
So, will she have money for food? No, then leave some money in there for her. Do you want to support her before any divorce? Yes, is it in your best interest, no. So don't support her.
She will have to find a job, and anything you do now, will create a ripple effect down the line, so cut the strings, be your man and do whats best for you. As i can promise you she's definitely doing whats best for her.
What do you think will make more of an impact? Bring accommodating or fighting her for every red cent. Most WAS expect a fight. Shock her by being loving and accommodating even in D.
I thought being so loving and accommodating for so long while she had no commitment to me or our marriage is what got me into this mess.
Did it? Is that what got you into this? In that case you are dealing with a narcissistic, psychopath. Anyone that reacts to accommodation and love with no commitment is not a stable person.
I will have to go back and read your whole sitch again. However, yes I think you should split your finances through the separation. However, when it comes to D proceedings, if you have any desire for future R, then tread lightly.
So one conversation I regret not having with W sooner (before she was involved in an affair, but was spending a lot) was to assert that I needed to have some spending money of my own. I've always put off buying things that I wanted, thinking I couldn't afford it or didn't really need it.
Is it just too late to have this conversation now? Or do I have the conversation now more as a courtesy of informing W of what I am going to be doing for myself? We agreed to close accounts, then she changed her mind. Is this something I shouldn't bring up again myself, same rules as R talks?
I think I should definitely have a separate account of my own, and don't necessarily need to tell W that. But now it sounds like I am being advised here to talk to her first before making any moves.
Eh just separate your accounts. THen use your money the way you want to.
What steve85 said. Mysterious is key, buying a flashy red sports car won't hurt tho.
Me keeping my knowledge of W's affair a secret was for me like trying to lead a triple life. I still feel like I'm leading a double life, one where I set W free to divorce me and I move on without her, and another where I still desperately want to save our marriage.
Every thing below is my opinion, so feel free to tell me to sod off.
1) You have to stop immediately (as in this very moment) desperately want to save your marriage. You need a healthier view on it. Something on the lines of "I would like to work on our marriage given the right circumstances, however I accept the fact that my wife may choose otherwise". If it helps, think of it this way: what is the difference between telling the seller of a car: "I desperately want to buy this car!!!!" vs "I would consider buying this car if you fix the AC and change the tires. It is ok if you want to sell this car to someone else. I am sure I will find another one and I am perfectly happy to use Uber in the meanwhile".
2) Don't look at it as keeping your knowledge of her affair as leading a double life. It is simply not in your interest in discussing this. Do you feel you are leading a double life when you go to Starbucks, you order coffee, and you keep your knowledge of the affair from the barista? It is not something you want to bring up in front of her, right? Same with your wife.
You are not keeping a secret, you are simply not starting a conversation not worth starting. If anyone is leading a double life in your household, it is not you.
Every time you feel like you want to bring up the affair, remember your knowledge is not her business. Every time you feel you desperately want to save your marriage, think about what you want to change before you want that marriage.
So one conversation I regret not having with W sooner (before she was involved in an affair, but was spending a lot) was to assert that I needed to have some spending money of my own. I've always put off buying things that I wanted, thinking I couldn't afford it or didn't really need it.
Is it just too late to have this conversation now?
Yes, too late for that conversation now. You are wanting to go back and do things that should have been done long ago. Learn from your mistakes and don't repeat them in the future.
Back to the subject of you confronting your W about her A........(sorry, I can't remember if you have solid evidence or just suspect). You seem to think it is standing up for yourself and getting back some self respect. If you believe it that strongly.......then tell her you know about her A!
I am not against a H confronting his WW, just to clarify. I merly want LBH's to understand it is does fix the problem and he had better have an plan that goes beyond just confrontation. If he's not prepared to implement tough love actions, then he best not confront. That's the point I wanted you to understand. You are certainly free to tell her.
I think it is more about pride, than anything else. You want her to know that you know. So......tell her! If you believe it will give you respect.......then tell her you know. But
if she denies it....don't be one of these guys that get mad and stay hung up over the fact his WW won't admit to the truth. See what I mean? One thing kind of leads to another. At some point, you just have to accept it is what it is.
To be clear, I have already told W a week ago that I believe she is having an affair. She gave me no response at all about it. She's been sleeping on the couch since then because I told her I would no longer sleep on the couch while she is having an affair. I have stopped grocery shopping, making meals, cleaning the kitchen, and washing bath towels and washcloths for her. In the kitchen I am trying to just clean up after myself and my son. Closing joint accounts was a priority of mine too but I'm trying not to obsess about that at the moment. W had agreed to stop sharing joint accounts but seems to have changed her tune since learning she could still get half in a settlement regardless of where the money is kept now.
My therapist is encouraging me to continue asserting myself, which is important for my own self-growth. That means clearing the air with W about her agreeing to separate accounts and then backing out of that agreement. For the next two days though I'll be out of town going to a cousin's wedding by myself, and I am looking forward to leaving all W drama behind during that time.
EricC, I like your first point above. That's pretty much where I've been trying to get to mentally and emotionally. Keeping my ring off has been helpful I think in seeing that I'll be fine without her. I still believe R would create the best outcome for all long-term, but I accept that my belief isn't going to get us anywhere anymore without some buy-in from W. And if she's not even going to apologize for having an affair, I'm not wasting my time pursuing anymore.
EricC, I like your first point above. That's pretty much where I've been trying to get to mentally and emotionally. Keeping my ring off has been helpful I think in seeing that I'll be fine without her. I still believe R would create the best outcome for all long-term, but I accept that my belief isn't going to get us anywhere anymore without some buy-in from W. And if she's not even going to apologize for having an affair, I'm not wasting my time pursuing anymore.
I hope I do not discourage you with my next words. You need to get to a less emotional state. It looks to me you are very hurt (understandably so). You need to go beyond that and let bygones be bygones. Focus on doing what is right for you, regardless of her and your R. Definitely stop pursuing, but not because she needs to apologize. Stop pursuing because it is not good for you, because it is pointless, and last but not least because you would respect her decision if she wants out.
Please focus on detaching emotionally. Audit your thoughts and decisions and try to always check: "Am I thinking this because it is true/correct/good for me, or am I thinking it because I am hurt?"
To be clear, I have already told W a week ago that I believe she is having an affair. She gave me no response at all about it. She's been sleeping on the couch since then because I told her I would no longer sleep on the couch while she is having an affair. I have stopped grocery shopping, making meals, cleaning the kitchen, and washing bath towels and washcloths for her. In the kitchen I am trying to just clean up after myself and my son. Closing joint accounts was a priority of mine too but I'm trying not to obsess about that at the moment. W had agreed to stop sharing joint accounts but seems to have changed her tune since learning she could still get half in a settlement regardless of where the money is kept now.
My therapist is encouraging me to continue asserting myself, which is important for my own self-growth. That means clearing the air with W about her agreeing to separate accounts and then backing out of that agreement. For the next two days though I'll be out of town going to a cousin's wedding by myself, and I am looking forward to leaving all W drama behind during that time.
All good stuff.
EricC, I like your first point above. That's pretty much where I've been trying to get to mentally and emotionally. Keeping my ring off has been helpful I think in seeing that I'll be fine without her. I still believe R would create the best outcome for all long-term, but I accept that my belief isn't going to get us anywhere anymore without some buy-in from W.
Great that you told us what's on your mind, don't tell her that.
And if she's not even going to apologize for having an affair, I'm not wasting my time pursuing anymore.
It might be a waste of time either way. Let her figure it out and come to you.
Feeling frustrated today, about a few things.
Now that I've stopped cooking and grocery shopping for W, she's been quick to start doing those things for herself. I think my feeling is mostly jealousy, as I have been cooking for her for years, and now that I've stopped, she shows me she is perfectly capable of doing what I did for her, but she rarely did that for me. She seems to be cooking more food than she could eat herself. I've been wondering if I should just start eating the food she is cooking now too. I'm still paying all the bills and watching our son half the time. Everything just is really tense between us.
Right now W ignores me and I ignore her for the most part. We don't even say hello or goodbye to each other when we come and go from the house.
I am going to another wedding this weekend across the country and will be leaving tonight and returning Tuesday morning next week. I also have a job interview on that Tuesday in the afternoon. W can't watch son that afternoon, so I asked my mom to watch son. I told W that today, and she got angry, because about 7 months ago she told my mom she didn't want her watching our son by herself anymore. W is as angry at my mom as she is at me, if not more. And W probably thinks I am not respecting her decision about my mom not watching our son. Anything my W doesn't blame me directly for in our relationship, she blames my mom for raising me to be how I am. I don't want to see or think about W until my interview is over next week. I would like to talk to my son during that time though. W is taking him with her to a baby shower out of state for the weekend.
I just feel my anger and resentment building more and more the longer W stays in our house. I have the bedroom now but the rest of the house is a dump now that I've stopped cleaning it. I admit I wanted my W to feel some shame and discomfort by sleeping on the couch herself, but I sense that it hasn't phased her a bit.
I've noticed she has stopped using our joint credit card, but now that she is using her own card, she could still make payments on it out of our joint checking account, which would be a surprise to me and could overdraft our checking account. I still need to talk to her about that.
Hi STH, this is a difficult time. It's hurtful to watch your spouse act like they don't need you any more. The same happened to me. I cooked my husband elaborate meals for years based on his parents' recipes and I basically did everything for him - cooking, cleaning, grocery shopping... When he left last year he moved to our house which wasn't yet done and didn't have a functioning kitchen and some of the walls were even still exposed to the elements. He ate fast food every day and slept in a construction site just to be away from me and commented how it was much better. Now the house is done and he cooks for himself. I guess everything I ever did meant nothing. It's one of the worst ways our spouses betray us. I've also been in your shoes living with a husband who's having an affair or after the affair when we're barely talking - it's almost impossible not to be resentful. If your wife is still having an affair it seems not much will change until she and her partner break up. I hope it won't be long and if you really work hard to manage your actions and emotions then there's still a chance she'll see her own fault in this situation and seek your forgiveness. It did happen to me when I was in your shoes a few years ago - my husband came begging for me to take him back. Then he did the same thing again in my case but you have more knowledge from this site to create a better outcome for yourself and your child.
Now that I've stopped cooking and grocery shopping for W, she's been quick to start doing those things for herself. I think my feeling is mostly jealousy, as I have been cooking for her for years, and now that I've stopped, she shows me she is perfectly capable of doing what I did for her, but she rarely did that for me. She seems to be cooking more food than she could eat herself. I've been wondering if I should just start eating the food she is cooking now too.
Of course she is perfectly capable. Don't fall into the trap of looking for quid pro quo. When your R is good, it looks petty and ungenerous. When your R is in the gutter is simply laughable. Cook your stuff and let her cook hers. The less you share at this stage, the better.
W is as angry at my mom as she is at me, if not more.
Don't pay attention.
I told W that today, and she got angry, because about 7 months ago she told my mom she didn't want her watching our son by herself anymore.
What reason did she give? If she is that concerned for your son's well-being, she knows where to find him.
Anything my W doesn't blame me directly for in our relationship, she blames my mom for raising me to be how I am.
Again, don't pay attention. She is at a phase where she needs to spew out every possible reason to justify her own behavior. This is not a reflection of you, it is a reflection of her. Paying attention to such BS is completely unwarranted. Don't even answer to such talk.
I just feel my anger and resentment building more and more the longer W stays in our house. I have the bedroom now but the rest of the house is a dump now that I've stopped cleaning it. I admit I wanted my W to feel some shame and discomfort by sleeping on the couch herself, but I sense that it hasn't phased her a bit.
Take care of your job interview above all. Try to not get distracted.
It looks like there is a lot of negative pressure in your house. Avoid confrontation. If she refuses to take care of stuff, don't fall to her level as part of some pissing contest. Do what you need to do. If the house needs cleaning - clean it. Your kid lives there after all.
I spent last Thursday night thru yesterday noon away from my wife and son while I attended my cousin's wedding. I wanted to call to talk to my son during that time, but I didn't, as I also wanted to just have some distance and time for just myself apart from all the trouble at home. I also had the job interview yesterday which went well enough besides their "standard starting salary" being much less than I was expecting.
But I have a confession. Before going to the interview, I was home alone and W's computer was unlocked. I've resisted the temptation to snoop for a while, but yesterday I made the wrong decision. I read messages between her and her two friends. I learned OM's first name, and that he knows she is married. And W saying things like he's everything I'm not. Of course I felt a lot of anger reading the messages. There was plenty of bashing of me from her and her friends. I think I noticed though that although every mistake of mine was immediately shared with her friends, the things I've done right go unreported.
It's been hard to get off my mind, and it feels like a big step backward for me.
STH, we've all been there. But don't be surprised by the mistakes only, no discussion of changes. She doesn't want you to change. She wants to be justified in her PA and if you change into the spouse that only a fool would leave, well, she'd be a fool to leave.
Snooping is never a good thing, but sometimes we need the information we obtain. Though I find it curious that she left her computer unlocked. Most of the time cheaters will cover their tracks, so I am wondering if she wanted you to find the messages. Either way, the fact that you can't get it off your mind is why it is generally better not to know. Now you will be tempted to discuss it with her which hurts you instead of helping you.
It being unlocked was accidental because of a program keeping it from shutting down. Has happened a couple other times and I've only resisted the temptation about half the time.
Met with my therapist today, and we agreed that snooping did not make anything better for me, though I did learn some things I "wanted to know". I'm frustrating myself, my therapist, and probably everyone here and even my W with my inaction and indecision about my relationship with my W. Being "patient" and not expressing what I want hasn't been good for me.
Right now the only communication W and I have is about our son, even though we are still living at home together. I have been saying hello and goodbye to her when I come home or leave, but that's about it. This morning my son heard me say goodbye to W, and he asked if mom said bye. I said no, and he asked why. I just said I don't know. When W and I were discussing divorce a while back (at her initiation, this was the discussion that led to her breakdown) I told W that saying hello and goodbye to her was a way I was trying to bring some positivity into our relationship. I don't remember my exact words, I think it was something I told her after she asked me "How am I supposed to love you?". I stopped doing that for a while, and now I feel like doing that is being seen by her as pursuing. And my own son is noticing her ignoring me. I'm not just supposed to ignore her too am I? And if I can't even say hello and goodbye, how am I supposed to approach her about anything else like my therapist wants me to? I think that's what's got me feeling like my hands are tied right now.
The last time I mentioned how separating our accounts would require closing them, she changed her mind about doing that, and expressed an interest in mediation. Part of why I want to separate accounts is so I can get another student loan installment for the summer but not tell my W about it. I'm open to opinions on whether that is wise or just scheming. It would all come out in divorce negotiations anyway, but I don't know when W will get around to that. My therapist is encouraging me to follow up with W about separating accounts. I'm afraid of doing that, and about it opening up further divorce and mediation talks. My therapist is of the opinion that avoiding talking about all this stuff is not good for me though. So the "best decision" in my appointment today we decided on was for me to talk to W about the accounts. If I'm going to do that, it should probably be tonight.
I'll have my son this weekend, while W goes to a family reunion on Saturday. I think she might have said she's leaving tomorrow night. Probably seeing OM. Less I know the better, right? BTW, while obsessing this morning about A, I'm pretty sure I ID'd OM. Got a tsk tsk from my therapist about that one.
Talked with W. I had a buyer for our vehicle with 190k miles for $300. I brought up the joint accounts again. We disagree on whether the court would require us to split everything 50/50. I started feeling angry, because of the disagreement, W's resistance to separating accounts, or because of how I feel about W's spending. W noticed and asked if I was angry. I said yes I was feeling angry. That is a good 180 for me to actually say that, but then I had to explain what I was angry about. That is the moment I think I should instead excuse myself from the conversation to cool down. I need practice.
I think I said I was upset because I have denied myself any spending money for years, and I want to be able to spend my own money and know where my money is going. W kept asking me why I wanted to close the accounts, and I said I didn't want any joint accounts with her. I asked why she wanted to keep them. She brought up paying for food, so I said I would give her money for food. She said we were still married. Not proud of this but I said "Are we?" She said "You haven't signed anything yet have you?" I told her "You can't have it both ways", another thing probably better kept to myself. She asked if I was accusing her of something. I wondered how she could have forgotten me telling her I believed she was having an affair??? I don't think I responded to that, but she started yelling, and son came in to ask what we were doing. I left the room saying I wasn't going to be yelled at anymore. That's the first time I've ever done that, and need to practice it too. W tried to make it my responsibility to resume the conversation, but I told her no, she needed to calm down and come to me. She protested once more, but I did not engage further.
Later after she had cooled down she did ask me if we were going to talk any more tonight, and I said no not tonight, I need to go to bed. She still wants us to come to a decision about the joint accounts, but I think I have certainly made my position clear enough to go ahead and open a private checking account of my own. That's something I'll do on Saturday while she's out. Pretty sure I'm gonna do it this time.
Oh before talking about our accounts she also told me she was moving out in two weeks. Don't know how that's going to work with our son, which is something she wants to talk about. She also told me she found a new gym that costs $100 a month. Not sure why she told me that, but I asked her how she was going to pay for it and she said she'd figure something out.
So she is against closing the joint accounts but is moving out in 2 weeks? I'd open my own account, take half the money out of the joint accounts and start having my check deposited in the new account.
She is cake eating with these accounts. Take the cake away.
STH, you are dealing with a WW here. She is selfish to the max, as you've probably already noticed. This means that she will do whatever she feels is best for her. Guess what, that means she will gladly move out and keep spending your money. IF you let her.
Her moving out in 2 weeks is your excuse to separate your money. "I will not continue to fund you leaving me for someone else."
STH, I am thinking maybe you need to just let her know you know what you know. Don't tell her how! This is the mistake I made. Trust me on this, do not tell her how you know just tell her you know. The mystery will mess with her and get her wondering how you know. Mystery is your friend, that is what detachment is about. It makes you mysterious.
I made the wrong decision. I read messages between her and her two friends.
Don't do that ever again. The more you know the worse it is for you. It will only torture you, and will torture you for a long time.
And W saying things like he's everything I'm not. Of course I felt a lot of anger reading the messages. There was plenty of bashing of me from her and her friends. I think I noticed though that although every mistake of mine was immediately shared with her friends, the things I've done right go unreported.
Now that you have read it, make sure you do not believe it. All of this is a load of crap. Not a speck of truth (although she may well believe it). Please look at it from her perspective. She did something that she knows is very wrong, selfish, hurtful. How can she justify her actions in front of her friends and most of all in front of herself? She can do only one thing: she starts explaining how unhappy she was, how incompatible you two are, she lists every single flaw you have (real or not, significant or not) and then she says that OM is everything you are not. Now it is obvious in her and in her friends eyes that she did not have a choice but to start the A.
As long as the A continues, every little mistake you do will be looked through the lens " My H is making me unhappy. This is why I have the A. OM is so much better/different".
Just remember that despite everything she says, her having an A does not reflect who you are, it reflects who she decided to be. If she was that unhappy, she would have not needed an OM, she would have left earlier.
The good news is that most A crumble sooner or later. Too much lying and inconveniences. Most likely than not she the feelings will wear off and she will (subconsciously) realize that OM is not that perfect. At this stage she will look back at you and will try to find out if it is worth coming back to you and go through the painful process of reconciliation and R rebuilding. At this point you have to show her that you are somebody she would be an idiot to reject - a stand-up H and loving father, an independent and self-confident man. The sooner you get into that mindset, the easier it will get to live through this.
Completely agree with Steve here. I will also add: do not try to reach an agreement with her. She does not want to agree with you. She is looking for disagreement. That justifies her decision to leave. Avoid confrontation and concede where it is not critical, and take the reins and act on your own where it is critical to do so. Trying to reach an agreement is pointless. She wants to take a favorite painting, CD or book that are yours? Give it to her. She wants to keep a joint account while having her own independent life? No thanks. You do not have to justify your actions, just do what is necessary to protect yourself.
Wow, Eric and Steve nailed it. I am an information wore so I could take that info and carry on better than some people. You need to acknowledge the pain of what you read, the move forward and refocus on your goals.
Be strong mentally, if you wanted to be done you'd have divorced her already. So WORK towads your goals. Work ain't always fun.
Here is my take on the conversation you had with your W:
I think I said I was upset because I have denied myself any spending money for years, and I want to be able to spend my own money and know where my money is going.
It is useless to complain to her. You will get no sympathy. Seeing you hurt only strengthens her hostility.
W kept asking me why I wanted to close the accounts, and I said I didn't want any joint accounts with her.
Can you close these account unilaterally? If yes, just do it and tell her it is done and there is no point of discussing it. If you cannot, simply do what Steve suggested - get the money out and put it your own account.
I said I would give her money for food
I probably need to know your past threads more carefully to understand your situation better. But, why are you giving her money for food when she moves out? How long do you plan on feeding her after she moves out?
She said we were still married.
She is yanking the chain here.
She said "You haven't signed anything yet have you?"
She is taunting you.
I told her "You can't have it both ways"
Instead, you should have shown more independence: "I will sign what I see fit, when I see fit."
She asked if I was accusing her of something.
You should answer: "No." She is taunting you again. She wants you to accuse her of stuff: A, spending, leaving etc. This fuels her "independence". She wants war to justify her her actions. Do NOT give it to her.
I left the room saying I wasn't going to be yelled at anymore.
Very smart! Good move!
W tried to make it my responsibility to resume the conversation, but I told her no, she needed to calm down and come to me.
Don't tell her no. Best is not to talk to her while she is yelling. Just listen or leave. Don't reply to a yelling person. Let them yell and appear ridiculous. You can take the initiative to have a conversation only when you find it important, and only when she is capable of having a civilized conversation. This is not something you want to tell her though. Let her see it (multiple times) instead of hear it.
She protested once more, but I did not engage further.
Awesome! Let her chase you a bit, even if it is just to yell more. You did good.
Later after she had cooled down she did ask me if we were going to talk any more tonight, and I said no not tonight, I need to go to bed.
Oh before talking about our accounts she also told me she was moving out in two weeks. Don't know how that's going to work with our son, which is something she wants to talk about.
This is something you certainly want to work out with her. You need to be very cooperative when it comes to the son (unlike the accounts).
She also told me she found a new gym that costs $100 a month. Not sure why she told me that, but I asked her how she was going to pay for it and she said she'd figure something out.
You did good again. Better not to ask but just state "Nice! Good for you! I hope you can afford it."
Ahhhh!
W put "moving day" on the calendar for next Saturday. Out of state back with her parents. I don't know what to do about our son. I know the standard advice is "TALK TO A LAWYER!". I don't even know what I really want though or what I would ask a lawyer still. I don't have childcare ready nor do I think I could afford it, although I might be able to if I cut off W from finances. That's not really the route I want to go. Too scared of repercussions I think. Staying with W at grandma and grandpa's house a few days a week isn't really that bad, nor is it much different than what divorced life would be like.
I just don't like it and I feel angry and scared and unprepared.
Eh. I am guessing she is being passive-aggressive. Why put it on the calendar? Because she knows you will see it!
Calm down. Stay quiet and watch. Moving takes planning and preparation. If you see none of that likely she is bluffing.
It's been a long time coming, I don't think it is a bluff. She's been living out of a suitcase for a while and been packing up a few things. I know she will leave me to clean up the mess she leaves behind. She was adamant last night about us coming up with a parenting plan and both being more transparent about commitments we had which would affect our availability to watch our son. She wants better communication and all about that. I saw no good reason to disagree with that, so I agreed to put my commitments on the calendar more and she would do the same.
A couple times last night she asked me to email her a response about things if I wasn't able to give her one right then, and she wanted to put a timeframe on it. That made me feel like she was just trying to put the responsibility on me again to talk with her. Maybe letter writing would be helpful, but I'm feeling more resentful at her requesting my time.
A couple times last night she asked me to email her a response about things if I wasn't able to give her one right then, and she wanted to put a timeframe on it. That made me feel like she was just trying to put the responsibility on me again to talk with her. Maybe letter writing would be helpful, but I'm feeling more resentful at her requesting my time.
This is something you can agree to, especially if it helps avoid heated conversation. Just make sure you follow the same guidelines - you do not initiate contact, you keep it polite but brief. You do not agree to anything you should not be agreeing to.
Sigh. W is supposed to be staying at her parents house this weekend. She called me because she forgot her meds at home. She asked if I would meet her halfway to give them to her tomorrow morning. I agreed. It's going to eat up a couple hours of my weekend. Was that being too nice? I'll just have to take the opportunity to try to be pleasant I guess.
Thanks EricC for the advice on writing emails. I guess it is still in my best interest to keep lines of communication open, and I can't choose how that happens. Maybe she'll respond better to emails anyway.
Seems too nice to me. She can't remain faithful but here you come to save the day bc she forgot something? She didn't forgot to put the move out day on the calendar when she knew it would hurt you.
You may remember that you had a pressing engagement...hehe.
But then again I'm not always the strongest with my WW.
Ahhhh!
W put "moving day" on the calendar for next Saturday. Out of state back with her parents. I don't know what to do about our son. I know the standard advice is "TALK TO A LAWYER!". I don't even know what I really want though or what I would ask a lawyer still. I don't have childcare ready nor do I think I could afford it, although I might be able to if I cut off W from finances. That's not really the route I want to go. Too scared of repercussions I think. Staying with W at grandma and grandpa's house a few days a week isn't really that bad, nor is it much different than what divorced life would be like.
I just don't like it and I feel angry and scared and unprepared.
First, she is not bluffing. She put it on calendar because she wants you to know when she is leaving. That is the decent thing to do, as opposed you simply find the house empty one day.
Second, stop lamenting and spring into action. You have a plan outlined already, just execute:
1) Meet with a Lawyer. You do not know what to ask? How about "What should I prepare for?"
2) Find childcare.
3) Cut off your W finances.
4) The only repercussions you need to worry is where your son will be when you are working if you do not have childcare. What are you afraid of? She can't leave you twice. Your W should be worried about the repercussions because she's got something to lose. You only have something to gain here.
5) You do not have to like it, just do what needs to be done. It is ok that you are angry and scared. It is NOT ok that you are unprepared. Get prepared.
3) Cut off your W finances.
One thing on this item. Don't be afraid that your W will go ballistic when she hears about this. Well, she probably will. You simply tell her "I had to budget in the childcare expenses and had to leave something out. I decided it would be the money I give you. Sorry, I am putting you in that position." That's it. No accusations that she left you, that she abandoned her family etc. Just be calm, say what you have and cut off the conversation (it is easier over email as she suggested
).
I think you missed a good DB opportunity there
"I'm sorry you forgot your meds. Unfortunately I'm busy and won't be able to meet you half way. "
Then be busy. Also stop answering every call and text. If she is really leaving (I still have my doubts based on the timing alone) then she needs to know what it will be like with you not being there.
Also be very careful on the email idea. LBS have a tendency to type too much. Typing too much is worse than saying too. Think of the letter mr. Rose wrote in War of the Roses when he thought he was dying. Things in writing can come back to haunt you. Keep it brief. Simple. To the point. No greetings. No ending. Just the facts. I don't feel it necessary to respond to every one. One of the best ways to detach is to become less available.
I sent a couple questions to the lawyer I had a free consultation with, but expect I may have to start paying to get answers. I have not wanted to be the first one to get lawyers involved, but just might have to do that though.
I finally opened a checking account for myself. Haven't moved any money yet or set up direct deposit.
While cleaning up the kitchen I found a receipt that showed W bought a $100 visa gift card with her credit card. Either stashing money away, or wanting to pay for something she doesn't want me to know about, even if I were to somehow access her credit card statements. I've got plenty of ideas why she did that, but I guess I'll never know. I haven't discussed any financial things with W since she was yelling at me last time.
I think I don't trust W and she doesn't trust me with our finances. It feels like everything is just turning into an arms race, and W and I are both waiting for each other to flinch. That's been a bad relationship pattern for us, not talking about conflicts. I guess this just brings me back to the option of writing her an email.
I dropped off the meds yesterday, and W's SIL was with her which I wasn't expecting, but made it easier to act pleasantly. W was even somewhat chatty with me. SIL only visits a couple times a year so it was nice for her to see my son.
I had a fun day with my son yesterday. Found a splash pad close to home I didn't know about, and went to the beach.
3) Cut off your W finances.
One thing on this item. Don't be afraid that your W will go ballistic when she hears about this. Well, she probably will. You simply tell her "I had to budget in the childcare expenses and had to leave something out. I decided it would be the money I give you. Sorry, I am putting you in that position." That's it. No accusations that she left you, that she abandoned her family etc. Just be calm, say what you have and cut off the conversation (it is easier over email as she suggested
).
I think asking her to work on a budget with me could actually be good, though there is potential for much conflict. Maybe even just ask her to give me a budget proposal, or I'll have to just close our joint accounts and it will be up to her to figure out how to pay all her bills. I don't want her missing payments and that affecting me. We started budgeting a year ago, at her initiation, but it turned out badly because she didn't really follow it, and I think she thought I was still controlling all the budget allocations and not giving her any spending money. We were living off student loans at the time, so I didn't want to allocate the loan money to anything other than absolute necessities. She wanted to use the loan money to continue the lifestyle she wanted. It was a big strain on our marriage, which might have been a way for us to grow closer if we had better skills and compassion for each other at the time.
Here are some options I have. I guess I need to do some pro/cons, but I'm just going to write the options now and then get on with the rest of my day. I need to mow the lawn.
1) close the joint accounts, put all the money into my new private account, give W nothing going forward
2) close joint accounts, give W a check for half, give her nothing going forward
3) close joint accounts, give W cash for half the balance of our net cash and credit card debt, and give her half of what's left each month after I pay all the bills
With all these, I would still keep my commitment to pay W's medical bills. If we are getting D'd then all of this stuff really is somewhat irrelevant, which I think is what W is thinking too, since everything is going to get split up during D. At least this might get her moving on the D work and cut my financial responsibility a bit sooner. That feels like a short term gain, but oh well.
I also don't know the current balance of W's credit card or private checking account, but i think it's not that much. Should I make that a condition of what I do with the joint accounts?
Forgot to note I sold that vehicle today for $300 cash. Then I found the receipt for the visa gift card and my first thought was that I should deduct that from what I gave W from the car sale. I don't think that's a good idea though. Would just be petty and controlling for me to change the agreement to split the sale money in half. That was the whole backdrop for why I said I wanted to separate accounts. There's even a slim chance the gift card was for a legitimate purpose. I feel better when I give W the benefit of the doubt like that, but usually I am just fooling myself and feel worse later after an accumulation of evidence that confirms my worst initial suspicions. I guess best is to let go of it and make choices for myself. Hard for me to do.
I feel better when I give W the benefit of the doubt like that, but usually I am just fooling myself and feel worse later after an accumulation of evidence that confirms my worst initial suspicions. I guess best is to let go of it and make choices for myself. Hard for me to do.
As hard as it may seem to do, you need to do it. I've been in the same situation many times before. We want to believe what we want to believe despite our gut feelings telling us something is off. Don't do it anymore. Trust your instincts. Giving her the benefit of the doubt is your NGS kicking in. The only people you need to worry about at this point are you and your S. As far as your 3 options listed above, #3 shouldn't even be on the table. Close that joint accounts and imo what you do with the money depends on how it got there in the first place. If you were the one making all of the deposits and she wasn't putting anything in, I'd take it all. If you were both contributing to it, I'd split it...
I do not know what financial commitments you have given her, but IMO you are trying to use the finances to pursue her more. Let me ask you again:
How long do you intend to keep paying her bills? Her food? Her medical bills? At what point does that stop?
IMO it stops now. Whether you give her 50% of the money or not... you need to stop making plans with her. This is pursuing. If you want to give her 50%, simply take the other 50% out and don't close the account. She can decide to do what she wants.
I also don't know the current balance of W's credit card or private checking account, but i think it's not that much. Should I make that a condition of what I do with the joint accounts?
She has stated she wants out. Please respect that. That means that the balance of her credit card is none of your business, unless you are a cosigner or it otherwise affects your credit. In that case you do what is needed to shut it down. If this is solely her account, simply forget about it.
Also, what and how you split at D is not something you want to dwell on yet. Talk to a L first, and definitely do not give her money now, because you expect she will get it later at D.
what both Eric and mtb said are dead on!
STH, does your W work? On the one hand I agree with the others that you need to split your accounts ASAP, but on the other hand if she doesn't work then you may be legally responsible for supporting her on some level. If you are and she knows it, then taking this action may force her to pursue S and/ or D. Just something to consider.
No, she doesn't work. i feel like I need to literally shake the idea out of my head that I need to be supporting her financially anymore. Her not having a job is not my fault. When she had a job, she did share any of her income with me. I get emotional/angry thinking about that.
I'm having a hard time going about this without it just turning into a blame game, me telling W "This is what you wanted"
I fully expect it to push her to angrily D and reinforce her view of me as being controlling and abusive. That's why I would give her half now, so I'm not just dropping her in a shark tank. And I would probably want to cut everything off completely after one month.
STH17, I'm guessing you meant to say that when your W had a job, she DID NOT share any income with you, is that correct?
Prolly need to talk to a lawyer before cutting off her finances or giving her half of anything. She could take the half you "gave her" and then go spend more money. Protect yourself.
STH,
You may discuss the finances with a L. A L should be able to tell you what you can generally expect in case of a D. You can use this as a general guideline how to approach the situation. It does not mean that if the L tells you you may have to pay her alimony, you start paying her before the D. But at least you need to know what to expect.
For you, you need to figure out where your involvement in her life stops. It is for your own good. If you cut off her finances, that will not be the end of the world anyway. She has not been dumpster diving since you stopped cooking for her, right? Let her find her own job and deal with whatever she is dealing with.
The financial matters have nothing to do with the other issue: you do not want to blame her for anything. Just cut off the money, and do not tell her anything. If she comes to you about it, say you will be happy to reach to an agreement about the money and leave it at that. You do not owe her agreement on any subject which is not directly related to your kid. Let her figure things out.
Why do you expect it to push her to angrily D? Why are you controlling an abusive?
STH17, I'm guessing you meant to say that when your W had a job, she DID NOT share any income with you, is that correct?
Prolly need to talk to a lawyer before cutting off her finances or giving her half of anything. She could take the half you "gave her" and then go spend more money. Protect yourself.
oops, yeah definitely meant DID NOT share with me.
No matter what I do W can spend whatever she wants, I can't control that. Divorce or legal separation is the only real protection for myself against that which I am aware of. I'm waiting for an answer from L if court would even allow us to agree to split assets and debts different than 50/50, since we're in a community property state. Things could be different if we both move back to home state soon, which is an equitable distribution state.
I think the goal in separating accounts was to have more peace of mind myself, to be able to budget expenses without the wild card of W's spending.
EricC, my worry about her reaction is because she has an expectation that I will be controlling with finances. I have never truly restricted her access to our finances before (never took her cards away or locked her out of any accounts), but I routinely questioned her spending.
I looked up economic abuse on wikipedia, and most of what I read talks about it being a form of control to keep the victim dependent on the abuser. That's certainly not my goal here. I want W to take responsibility for herself and end the dependency. But I could see W only viewing it as me being selfish and not caring about her.
This is certainly not an easy situation. There is no one right and no one wrong way to go here. But the more you think about how your W views the things you do, the unhappier you will be. Remember, she is the one leaving, so she is painting everything you do the blackest of the black. If you give her money, you are controlling because you want to keep track what she spends it on. If you cut her off, you are controlling because you want her to be dependent on you.
The difference between the two choices is that the latter helps you detach. It is momentary. You cut her off and it is done, she can complain about it for the rest of her life, but she will simply be repeating herself over and over again.
The former choice, budgeting with her, leaves you in a continuous state of conflict. IMO it is lose-lose situation.
LOL. W got some kind of every-day-of-the-year horoscope book from the library. I think this is how she is going to find out if OM is her soulmate. 🤣
Hahaha. Sounds about par for the course for a WW. Refuses to acknowledge a situation for what it is and deal with it like an adult, but trusts stars and planet alignment to predict the future...
My WAW is into all the horoscopes has gone to psychics, tarot card readings even went on a womens spiritual empowerment retreat. Now she considers herself a soul coach and can officiate life transitional ceremonies- Like births deaths and marriage. How is that for a pile of SH!T. And this is the Godly woman that approached me at my church. Heaven help us!
I would suggest asking her to leave immediately and do so in a kind and detached manner.
If she won't leave, I would take proactive daily notes on the interactions and record them, if you can do so without her legal consent.
Your best bet is detach, stay away, focus on you - GAL. Be the man and put yourself in a position where you can walk away with dignity and respect. You can't change someone else's feelings and even trying to show love at this point will come off as manipulative. Just let her do her thing and smile like the man you are.
I'm not sure why you would want to work on it with a cheater who openly wants out of the relationship. I personally would find that situation extremely draining and toxic. In fact, I know firsthand from my own experience.
We went to one MC session and the counselor validated all the negative garbage and lies my wife was spouting and basically told her to leave me. I was the guy who wanted to "fix" the marriage. I was the one who scheduled it and saw the counselor for IC for 2 weeks prior. I was the guy looking to do better for the relationship. Doesn't matter in the end, if they're already emotionally committed to leaving/cheating.
IC/MC won't always recommend saving a marriage, if they are presented a picture of abuse. Even if it's not factually accurate or skewed by an affair or whatever.
I'd suggest you find another counselor for yourself and just focus on GAL and your own health and wellness.
W has started packing today. If she keeps up at this rate she'll have about 20 boxes to move by Saturday. I just went around the house taking photos of anything of value that might be important later. Wish I knew where our house deed was. I don't think W knows where it is either. Oops.
Her cousin is visiting her tomorrow while I take son to 4th of July fun with my family. I'm excited about time with son. W's cousin is recently divorced herself with two kids, oldest same age as my son. Cousin's H had an affair last summer, which she immediately publicly called him out on FB for when she found out. I thought the damage W witnessed from that affair would have kept her from doing the same to me. That's something that hurts me the most. Anyway I expect them to pack more boxes tomorrow.
A friend's W just finished moving out of their house yesterday, D already filed. I spoke with him and he said even though you know it's coming, when it finally happens it still hurts immensely. I'm seeing that's probably going to be true for me too.
I find myself wanting to confront W about affair, and stand up for myself, but I am hung up on what I can actually do that wouldn't just be controlling. I could close joint accounts saying I can't trust her with our finances, but legally our marital assets equally belong to her, and she is free to max out her own personal credit card. We are in a community property state so in divorce I would still be liable for her spending either way (I still am not sure wife understands how that works). Her using her own card would help me detach in that I wouldn't be hit daily by her purchases. And she is free to open up more credit cards, and she may claim I am financially abusing her. I also see that doing nothing isn't good for me either. W's behavior is costing me a lot of money, and there is no end in sight for her spending and affair.
i am a former Wayward Wife... the biggest mistake my H did was not confront me about my A when he first found out--which was in the beginning stages... he held onto the information for months and months before he finally "confessed." i know it's common practice here to keep it to yourself... i think that is the one of the weakest positions to be in, and i disagree with it whole-heartedly--with a CAVEAT!
when you confront, you must be ready to walk away... to kick the spouse out... to not put up with it in any way, shape or form... and to get on with your life--as in GAL...
please know that i am NOT saying that you must give up on your M... i am not saying that at all... i am saying that in order for you to have any chance at saving your M, you must be willing to let it go... that is coming from a point of STRENGTH...
the sooner you get there--the greater chance you will have in saving your M... mis dos cenatvos...
--artista
I just had a great long day with my son. Posting here's not how I really want my memories of today to end, so I'll keep this brief.
W spent the day at our house packing. She is moving out Saturday because she doesn't want to be with me. She has been saying she wanted to move out since last December. At this point I have only mildly confronted her about her affair, and since then our communication just deteriorated even more. We're both responsible for that breakdown in some ways. I'm finding it harder to speak to her since I'm really not all that interested in having any kind of relationship with her the more I have learned what she thinks of me and more of her behaviors and beliefs.
She's moving out in three days and packing all her things herself. What good would it do at this point for me to "pack up her stuff and kick her out"? I think I missed the boat on that opportunity, as I have with so many others. To do it now I think would just be picking a meaningless fight, like I am trying to make it seem like I am kicking her out when she clearly made the decision to leave all by herself. Legally I expect to be in a better position if it was her decision to leave anyway.
This is certainly tough moment for you. It is good that you can spend good quality time with your son. You should focus on that.
You do not really know what she thinks of you. Do not trust what she does or says.
Not only it is completely useless to "kick her out", but it is actually very harmful. Why would you want to do that? To retaliate for the way she treated you? What good would that do? It is much better to focus on what is best for your son (it is certainly in his best interest that his parents get along well), as well as GAL and detaching.
She's moving out in three days and packing all her things herself. What good would it do at this point for me to "pack up her stuff and kick her out"? I think I missed the boat on that opportunity, as I have with so many others. To do it now I think would just be picking a meaningless fight, like I am trying to make it seem like I am kicking her out when she clearly made the decision to leave all by herself. Legally I expect to be in a better position if it was her decision to leave anyway.
you are full of excuses... you will not get her back with your current mind set... in addition, i did not tell you to pack her things and kick her out... not literally... yes--you are passed that point... but you need to get there emotionally... figuratively...
you are in a place of timidity... weakness... and she knows it... if you want the slightest chance of saving your M, you need to move on... let her go... GAL... adelante, hombre...
--artista
I went home for lunch today. I thought it would be a convenient time to talk to W about arrangements for son. I still wasn't feeling all that ready to talk about it, but realized it was a conversation that had to be had whether I was ready or not. W was the one to start it. I said I wanted equal time with our son, and she said that's what she had in mind too, so we are going to have me watch him from Friday to Monday and she will do Monday night through Friday morning. Even as I said it I knew that wasn't really equal time, but I don't have any better plan still for childcare. Actually maybe it could be equal time depending on dropoff times. I left that open for now.
I asked her what we were going to tell our son. She said we can tell him we are separating, that she is going to live with her parents for a while, I'm staying at the house, and he'll stay with her sometimes and with me other times, and mom and dad simply aren't living together anymore. I said I disagree that it is simple.
W said she knows this whole divorce thing is new to both of us, like we're figuring things out as we go. She said she has friends who were children of divorce. I don't know what her point was there. Don't remember what she said exactly either. The message I hear is "everything will be fine our son will adjust". And I still think that's BS, no matter how great my life turns out after my W leaves me. I've still got anger about that. It's like being asked "don't you think your son will be better off without his parents constantly fighting?" Um, yeah, that's why I think his parents should attend counseling and repair the damage to their relationship, not cause more damage by divorcing (or having an affair!). That's the kind of stubborn belief I think I'll take to my grave. I'm afraid of letting go of that and walking away entirely myself. I'm afraid I'll start to think and act like my W is now. I do need to find my own self too, but seeing where that process has led my W frightens me. I wonder if that's really a big part of my own personal issues, fear of what I may become if I start to make choices for myself instead of doing what I think I'm supposed to do. Or not wanting to be responsible for mistakes. Hm. That's some good self-exploration I ought to embark on. Having a big empty house to myself might be just the place to do that.
W also began by telling me her mom wanted her to tell me that it would be good for me to have some family or friends to be with that day to support me. I almost LOL'd, and my face showed my surprise and disbelief. I was thinking: REALLY!? Now you're concerned about my feelings!? I just said, "I can make my own choices about that." Probably too standoffish. But that's what our relationship is right now, a standoff. Both our body languages showed it too, crossed arms etc. I almost told her to thank her mom for her concern, but I didn't say anything more about it.
Later I was thinking that my son will never again experience a group hug with his parents. That was one of the best things we did as a family. never. again.
Should son be around while W is moving out? Her family is coming to help her move. I asked W what she thought. She said she thought it would be more traumatic for son to come home and see mom and all her stuff has disappeared. I'm hesitant to even make plans for myself for that day because I think I should be there for my son. I don't know what he will think of it. I can only imagine it being traumatic no matter what. I'm sure I'm projecting.