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Original thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2783627#Post2783627

I feel like I earned a stripe or something making it to a part 2... I retained the original title for consistency but added a ? to the affair part, since there is clearly some inappropriate texting obsession going on, the extent of which I do not know.
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Yes, it is very possible! Realistically, this may be the most challenging task you've ever taken........should you decide to do it. Changing a life long mindset is not as easy as it may sound. People can change, if they want it badly enough, and if they work at it hard enough. You can try to change simply as a ploy to keep your W from leaving you.....but it won't last. You can't change yourself to appease her. You have to change b/c this is not working for you.


I am relieved to hear it is possible; that is all I need to know. I am committed to making these changes for myself, with or without my W, because I am fully aware of the impact these issues will continue to have on my future relationships if I don't fix them. I agree I think this might be the hardest task I've ever undertaken, but I am a person that thrives on intense challenges and the rewards in this case will be well worth it if I succeed.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I encourage you to finish reading the book on nice guy syndrome. I hope you have the right one.


I'm pretty sure I have the right one...googling it looks like there is one main book on the topic that is much more popular than any other. This is the one I have and it has been extremely helpful and relatable for me.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What I was trying to say previously, is to complete the tasks that you know are your responsibility. Don't wait for her to tell you, when you already know. That's what kids do. They wait for their mother to tell them to do it. Mothers are not sexually attracted to their children. And W's are not sexually attracted to a H they have to mother. Got it?


Got it. The chores are something I have had to work on since the very beginning of our relationship (I was extremely messy as a single person; growing up, my mom did not care at all about housework so I had a lot of learning to do). Now, I am totally transformed. W doesn't need to tell me to do things. However, your point about her acting like my mother is a good one. She does this in other ways, not by telling me to do chores. But rather things like asking if I remembered to bring my wallet, for example. One time I forgot it and it was a big ordeal, and now she asks almost every time we leave the house together. It annoys me, but I just say yes, I have it. I agree that the fact she treats me this way is a big problem. I'm not sure how to change it, though, besides making sure I'm not doing irresponsible childish things. I will say I would not consider myself an excessively irresponsible or forgetful person, so I will have to think more about how this dynamic came about in the first place.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
This 70%\30% responsibility doesn't work...,..I can tell ya. If done correctly, the chores that fall into your 70% should be designated, as should those that fall into her 30%. Otherwise, you risk getting into the blame game.......which apparently has already happened. The adult thing to do is to have an agreement about who does what.


I agree. After living this way for one year now, I can say that I pretty much feel responsible for 100% because there aren't set guidelines. W is not reluctant to help, and on weekends we will deep clean together, especially if we're having company. But, otherwise, she comes home from work and doesn't think about doing anything.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
The goal in this situation is to pull back your availability. Currently, she snaps her fingers and you do whatever she says. This is not attractive in men. In order to draw attraction, you have to stop acting like her child, and tell her you have made other plans. Don't make up some lie or excuse. Just simply tell her you don't want to work in the yard. (She will learn to ask you ahead of time, and not wait until you are GAL to ask). Bear in mind, however, you should not say it in a manner to sound like an a-hole. Know what I mean? Neither should you act apologetic.........b/c why should you feel sorry? Don't feel guilty (and she'll probably try to play the guilt card), but if you've handled your end of the responsibilities, then don't fall for the guilt card. Just politely tell her you aren't going to do yard work that afternoon. Don't argue with her. Don't feel you have to be accountable to her. You are a man, not a boy. You are her H, not her child.


I understand. I am not worried about sounding like an a-hole; I am much more likely to unintentionally sound apologetic. I definitely have the part of NGS where 'sorry' is often the first thing out of my mouth out of habit. I have identified this and am now careful to make sure that word is banned from my vocabulary unless truly warranted.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Now, here is an example of what the guy with NGS usually does. He'll start out whining and say something like, "Well gee, honey, I really wanted to XYZ this afternoon, couldn't we do the yard work next week? I promise, I'll get through with the projects.........I'll make it up to you". (This is his way of asking her permission to have the time off). Okay, then she starts getting angry at him, so he feels like he has to save himself, and he comes up with some lie or excuse to get him off the hook. And, just to be on the safe side, he is extra nice and accommodating to her for the remaining evening/weekend. When she is cold or b'tchy, he just endures.......just like that old doormat where she wipes the dog poop off her shoes.


Wow, it's almost like you know me! laugh This example is very illustrative. I can clearly see how I would do exactly the kinds of things you state and why they are a problem.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Your challenge will be in standing up to her and saying, "No", without giving pages of explanations, or a list of excuses/lies, and without being apologetic or feeling as if you have to be over accommodating. Your problem will be in knowing how to stay balanced. How do you show self-confidence and strength without looking like a jerk? How do you tell her you aren't going to stop your studying to go get something and run up the stairs, just b/c she asked? How do you tell her, "Um, you'll have to do it yourself, dear", instead of discussing it with her (like you previously asked us). There's no need to turn it into a big discussion. See, you want to change things by talking about it. You talk it to death, but that needs to stop. If she's not dense, she'll catch on, don't you think? The key is to stay consistent. The only time you should make an exception is when it really is necessary.......like if she is sick in bed or something.


I have heard this before...from my W. I am a total over-talker, over-explainer. I am on a mission to just stop talking about anything and prove any point I need to make with actions (especially during DB). If she requests something, I will just give a simple, polite response that says "no". Do you think something like, "Sorry, I'm in the middle of something. Do you mind getting You'll have to get it yourself" is appropriate? The strikethroughs are me attempting to correct my instinctive response if I were to tell her no. You are very right about my biggest struggle being the balance between strong and confident vs jerk.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
H's in your position often try to score points with their W, b/c it's an old behavior pattern he's developed. He'll find himself in the doghouse.......and maybe he knows why, or maybe he doesn't. Either way, he figures his only out is to make as many brownie points with his W as possible. This is not a trait that places the H in a more respectable position in the MR, nor will it score attraction. If you are guilty of this behavior, your emotions may tell you to go that old route......but I hope you won't. During this time of reinventing yourself, you need to learn new behaviors and solutions, rather than falling back on old habits.


Also me. Consciously rewiring my brain now. It has to be intentional every single day until new habits are formed.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Another common behavior I see in many H with NGS, is over explaining himself to the W. He thinks his mission in life is to make/keep his W happy. Therefore, when he sees her getting upset with him, or suspects that she will........he starts explaining himself out of a jam. He goes on & on & on. To her ears, he just sounds weak. It doesn't matter the excuses he gives.......he sounds like the excuse to her. So, if you tend to over explain your mess ups, save your breath. Hold your chin up and go forth like a man! If you owe an apology, seriously, then give a very short, "I apologize", or "Sorry about that".....and that's all. Let it go and move on. No big productions, okay?


Yup. Like I said above, over-talker, over-explainer, over-apologizer. Guilty on all accounts.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
One more thing I want to leave with you. I'll see a H on the board who eagerly quotes something to his W that he got straight off someone's post. Hey, it sounded pretty cool to him and he thinks it's what his W needs to hear. But guess what? It does not impress her. She is immediately alerted to the fact he got it from a book or some other place, b/c it doesn't sound like something he would say.....or else, he uses it out of context and makes himself look like an idiot. In the first place, you don't want to quote something that will lead her straight to this board. In the second place, these tools are for you.....not her. You can't say it to her and think it will fix her.....or even impress her a wee bit.


Finally, something I will NOT be guilty of. No worries here.

Thank you so much, Sandi. Your insights and suggestions are incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you took to write it all out.
It's great to see you willing to work on yourself, plus you know what to change.

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I am on a mission to just stop talking about anything and prove any point I need to make with actions (especially during DB).


At first, I thought you meant to completely stop talking. Finding balanced seems to be difficult for a lot of people......but I see what you are saying.

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Do you think something like, "Sorry, I'm in the middle of something. Do you mind getting You'll have to get it yourself" is appropriate? The strikethroughs are me attempting to correct my instinctive response if I were to tell her no. You are very right about my biggest struggle being the balance between strong and confident vs jerk.


Yes, your example is great. Just so long as you understand you don't have to give an excuse for not running to do whatever she said. Just saying a flat "no" can sound rude, and we humans feel we have to add something with it. It sounds as if you may have spoiled her, being as accommodating as you are. So, she may be persistent. You will have to be resolved to break the habit.

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Thank you so much, Sandi. Your insights and suggestions are incredibly helpful and I really appreciate the time you took to write it all out.


You are very welcome. I encourage you to set goals to help yourself improve in these areas.
Update/random thoughts and notes for the day:

I finally received DR in the mail! Read through about half of it last night; it didn't disappoint. Will keep reading tonight.

W told me today she "found me a road bike". Crazy good deal. I told her thanks, but I don't think I have the money to drop on that right now (technically, our money is shared; I was just politely deflecting). She says, "I do". I looked at the pictures and said it looks nice. Now I don't think she will actually buy it and I certainly won't bring it up again, but I am confused by this behavior.

Today she also declared she was "taking her hour". This is something she used to do when she came home from work because, after being by myself most of the day, I would often inundate her with talking as soon as she walked in the door. Of course, she was tired and just wanted to relax and this was a source of conflict. So, we decided that after she comes home she gets an hour to herself to nap, read, watch TV, whatever, before we would have any long discussions or tackle tasks etc. I thought it was a bit odd for her to casually announce this, as she gets unlimited hours to herself these days.

Tonight she came into the bedroom to change and said, "how about I sleep in the bed tonight?" Note that I have been sleeping in the bed for two weeks now since the very first couple nights after BD. She referred back to our original arrangement of switching off and that it hasn't been happening. I said, "You're right, but I thought about it, and since you're the one that doesn't want to sleep in the bed, I think it makes sense that you be the one to choose somewhere else to sleep." She said okay, "No, it's fine, you said your words. Have your throne, your majesty." And she left. She wasn't mad per se; more like accepting that I was probably right but she's not too happy about it. I hope I did the right thing here?

Last note, and I just wonder if anyone else has encountered this. My dog (I say mine because he was mine originally as opposed to the other two) has been totally screwed up by our separation. He is an anxious, extremely people-oriented dog to begin with (German Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix). But now I don't even know what to do with him. He has become neurotic about staying on the stairs/near the bedrooms. We can't get him to go outside to go to the bathroom once it's dark and he has been peeing in the house. He can't handle the fact that we don't sleep in the same room. He cries all night, opens doors trying to go in between and refuses to leave my W's room until she comes out with him and locks him back in with me. At bedtime, he goes in there and is visibly devastated when she tells him to go and he realizes she isn't coming. Even she acknowledges it's the saddest thing ever. I can't even imagine if we had kids. My heart goes out to all you guys in that situation.
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I looked at the pictures and said it looks nice. Now I don't think she will actually buy it and I certainly won't bring it up again, but I am confused by this behavior.


Expect the odd, unusual, abnormal, and crazy behavior in her......and you won't be confused. Place absolutely no expectations in what she says or how she acts with you.

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Today she also declared she was "taking her hour".


A lot of people need an hour to unwind after they get home from working all day, especially if they have stressful jobs. When I was a SAHM, I would hit my H with all my saved up words as soon as he walked in the door. grin I know how it can feel a bit rude and insulting, but some people can't handle all our "chatter". Mark it down to the differences in your psychological make up, and give her the hour. It's better than rolling her eyes or covering her ears when you talk.

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Tonight she came into the bedroom to change and said, "how about I sleep in the bed tonight?" Note that I have been sleeping in the bed for two weeks now since the very first couple nights after BD. She referred back to our original arrangement of switching off and that it hasn't been happening. I said, "You're right, but I thought about it, and since you're the one that doesn't want to sleep in the bed, I think it makes sense that you be the one to choose somewhere else to sleep." She said okay, "No, it's fine, you said your words. Have your throne, your majesty." And she left. She wasn't mad per se; more like accepting that I was probably right but she's not too happy about it. I hope I did the right thing here?


Was she saying "it's fine your majesty" or you? If it was her, then don't worry about her not being happy about it, you handled it well.

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Last note, and I just wonder if anyone else has encountered this. My dog (I say mine because he was mine originally as opposed to the other two) has been totally screwed up by our separation. He is an anxious, extremely people-oriented dog to begin with (German Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix). But now I don't even know what to do with him. He has become neurotic about staying on the stairs/near the bedrooms. We can't get him to go outside to go to the bathroom once it's dark and he has been peeing in the house. He can't handle the fact that we don't sleep in the same room. He cries all night, opens doors trying to go in between and refuses to leave my W's room until she comes out with him and locks him back in with me. At bedtime, he goes in there and is visibly devastated when she tells him to go and he realizes she isn't coming. Even she acknowledges it's the saddest thing ever. I can't even imagine if we had kids. My heart goes out to all you guys in that situation.


Dogs are very sensitive when there is something wrong the house. The local vet might give you some advice over the phone, IDK. If there is a trainer, or something like adog whisperer (whatever they are called), maybe you could contact them. If not, there's always Google. Does your W seem concerned about the dog?
This morning I woke up to a message from a mutual friend of ours that said "How you been holding up?"

I have to admit I was surprised and disappointed as I have been wondering if my W has been telling people. It makes it feel more "real" to know she has.

I would love to talk to this friend, but I sense that I should just say "I'm doing fine, thanks for checking in." I don't think it's a malicious spy attack, but I am very aware that I have no guarantee that anything I say won't get back to my W. I trust the friend, but let's be honest, people like to talk. Am I right to think this way or can I have a bit more candid conversation?
Major update:

W left her phone in the bathroom this morning when she went downstairs. I couldn't resist, she didn't even change her password.

Took me 10 seconds to find all that I needed to know. Affair confirmed. They have had physical contact - kissing, minimum. Could be more, don't know, don't care. This means she cheated in the week before BD. That part stings. But I was prepared for this, I'm not an idiot. Glad to have seen confirmed evidence with my own eyes, without any more than necessary to add to the pain.

Don't think it changes anything for me, DB-wise, right? If anything, it will be easier to stand my ground and not accommodate her at all anymore. Now I can truly spend the time thinking if this is something I can get past and if I even want her back.
Sorry to hear about her A. You are right that it doesn't change your DB plan.
That [censored]. But I guess at least you know and dont have to keep wondering.

Originally Posted By: 44tries
Now I can truly spend the time thinking if this is something I can get past and if I even want her back.


Dont waste your time on that at ALL. She isnt trying to reconcile now, so what they do/did doesnt matter. Please focus on you and what you need to do. It will be worth so much more.
Originally Posted By: 44tries

Tonight she came into the bedroom to change and said, "how about I sleep in the bed tonight?" Note that I have been sleeping in the bed for two weeks now since the very first couple nights after BD. She referred back to our original arrangement of switching off and that it hasn't been happening. I said, "You're right, but I thought about it, and since you're the one that doesn't want to sleep in the bed, I think it makes sense that you be the one to choose somewhere else to sleep." She said okay, "No, it's fine, you said your words. Have your throne, your majesty." And she left. She wasn't mad per se; more like accepting that I was probably right but she's not too happy about it. I hope I did the right thing here?



Excellent work here. Seriously, this is perfect. She is leaving the M. She left the MB. She should be the one to sleep elsewhere.

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Last note, and I just wonder if anyone else has encountered this. My dog (I say mine because he was mine originally as opposed to the other two) has been totally screwed up by our separation. He is an anxious, extremely people-oriented dog to begin with (German Shepherd/Golden Retriever mix). But now I don't even know what to do with him. He has become neurotic about staying on the stairs/near the bedrooms. We can't get him to go outside to go to the bathroom once it's dark and he has been peeing in the house. He can't handle the fact that we don't sleep in the same room. He cries all night, opens doors trying to go in between and refuses to leave my W's room until she comes out with him and locks him back in with me. At bedtime, he goes in there and is visibly devastated when she tells him to go and he realizes she isn't coming. Even she acknowledges it's the saddest thing ever. I can't even imagine if we had kids. My heart goes out to all you guys in that situation.


Stop talking to her about this. If she brings it up again I'd say something like "Yeah, he'll get used to it eventually." and then drop it. She is probably getting a little kick out of the fact that the dog's behavior concerns you. Just deal with it and act to her like it is no big deal.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
Major update:

W left her phone in the bathroom this morning when she went downstairs. I couldn't resist, she didn't even change her password.

Took me 10 seconds to find all that I needed to know. Affair confirmed. They have had physical contact - kissing, minimum. Could be more, don't know, don't care. This means she cheated in the week before BD. That part stings. But I was prepared for this, I'm not an idiot. Glad to have seen confirmed evidence with my own eyes, without any more than necessary to add to the pain.

Don't think it changes anything for me, DB-wise, right? If anything, it will be easier to stand my ground and not accommodate her at all anymore. Now I can truly spend the time thinking if this is something I can get past and if I even want her back.


Sorry man, but you already knew this was probably the case. As others have said, it changes nothing. Other than if it crossed a boundary for you maybe you are the one that can't move forward with R now. If you are okay with what she has done and still what to work towards R, then yes, you just keep moving on.

Likely this A will end and relatively soon. She is 26 and he is 19? Even without her being married that would be doomed to fail. Unless he is one mature 19 year-old. I dated a 19 year-old before I met my wife. I was 27 at the time. While it was fun for a while, it got old quick. She was still into high school drama crap that I had left behind years before. We were both in such different places in our lives. She was very attractive, but became less so as her 19 year-old lifestyle began to wear on me. By time we broke up I didn't even want to be her friend anymore. I was just at such a different place in my life.
Thank you all for your support, it means a lot. Steve, I really appreciated your personal anecdote and agree that I don't think the A can last. I'm not getting my hopes up that it will implode sooner rather than later, but there is no denying that the odds are stacked against it.

Now that I have full awareness of the whole situation, there are some things that have become easier and some things harder. Easier--man it's like my spine got a growth hormone injection! I have no fear or hesitation standing up to her now. I am not rude, not a jerk, always maintain respect, but I have no problem telling her no. Even in the past 24 hours, the dynamic has noticeably changed because I simply won't let her put even one toe over the line. The tides are turning and I am gaining power back; she is noticing and the push-pull is in full effect. Now that I have completely stepped back, she is the one in the chaser position and I must admit it I'm enjoying it.

Harder--maintaining an attitude of love and respect at all times is a lot more difficult than it was. I need to be careful not make snide comments or jabbing jokes. We tend to joke competitively with each other anyway and now that my anger and hurt is an at an all-time high, it takes a lot of self control to make sure I don't let that seep into my tone or word choice. But I don't want to give her any ammunition at all to say that I am handling the situation less than perfectly. It is a bit strange to be fully aware and her not know that I am. I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?

Speaking of her pushing, she has been making continuous comments about the bed issue. Coming in in the mornings and saying to the dogs "Wow must be nice to sleep in this big comfy bed, huh?" Yesterday, she talked about how she hasn't been sleeping well, not so subtly implying her desire to move. Today, she declared "I am sleeping in my bed this weekend." I just ignored her. But I know she is going to push this. How she has the audacity I do not know. I will absolutely stand my ground, but I fear it will turn nasty. She has already said I am being difficult about it more than once. I am trying to work out how I can calmly, politely, but firmly silence her on the issue once and for all. Any advice is appreciated.

I have already given the line I wrote about in my previous post that explained to her why I was no longer willing to leave the bed. I will reiterate that when she says it again. But, if she pushes onward or tells me I'm being difficult, I am thinking about saying something like, "Ask yourself if you truly feel you have done nothing wrong to lose the right/privledge to sleep in our bed. Answer to yourself, not me. If the answer is yes, we can continue to discuss this. If the answer is no, the conversation is over." My hope is that this will shut her up, but if you guys think it won't and have a better strategy, I'm all ears smile.

I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good.


44tries,

Good for you! And yes, tempering the anger can be hard at times. But, you're in the right mindset, just keep working toward your goal. You've got this...
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Harder--maintaining an attitude of love and respect at all times is a lot more difficult than it was. I need to be careful not make snide comments or jabbing jokes. We tend to joke competitively with each other anyway and now that my anger and hurt is an at an all-time high, it takes a lot of self control to make sure I don't let that seep into my tone or word choice. But I don't want to give her any ammunition at all to say that I am handling the situation less than perfectly. It is a bit strange to be fully aware and her not know that I am. I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?


Jabbing type of jokes between marriage partners eventually cuts too close to a nerve and if the receiving spouse expresses hurt or anger, the spouse throwing the jab will claim s/he was just joking. It feeds an undercurrent of disrespect and unresolved issues. From my observations IRL, it is a dangerous game for a MR. This is the perfect time for you to end your line of the jabbing jokes, b/c I can almost promise that you will eventually say something from your place of betrayal. Dropping your end of that particular brand of playfulness when interacting with your W, will help you to maintain a more visible profile of love and respect.

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Ask yourself if you truly feel you have done nothing wrong to lose the right/privledge to sleep in our bed. Answer to yourself, not me. If the answer is yes, we can continue to discuss this. If the answer is no, the conversation is over." My hope is that this will shut her up, but if you guys think it won't and have a better strategy, I'm all ears


No, it's too wordy and self-righteous. It sounds as if you are aiming for some type of confession from her. This is an example of how it would overflow into your so-called joking and most of your verbal interaction with her.......if you are not watchful over yourself.

If there is a second bedroom in the house, then she just needs to get another bed, a blow up mattress, or a sleeping bag. It's not your problem. No need for a preachy response, just say you aren't leaving your bed. There is no need to repeat your reasons. (For some reason, LBH's always feel it is necessary to "remind" and repeat points to the WW. No, she heard you the first time).




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Speaking of her pushing, she has been making continuous comments about the bed issue. Coming in in the mornings and saying to the dogs "Wow must be nice to sleep in this big comfy bed, huh?" Yesterday, she talked about how she hasn't been sleeping well, not so subtly implying her desire to move. Today, she declared "I am sleeping in my bed this weekend." I just ignored her. But I know she is going to push this. How she has the audacity I do not know. I will absolutely stand my ground, but I fear it will turn nasty. She has already said I am being difficult about it more than once. I am trying to work out how I can calmly, politely, but firmly silence her on the issue once and for all. Any advice is appreciated.


Your stance is that "you" aren't leaving the MBR (marital bedroom). If you have no problem sharing a bed with her, then don't try to stop her from getting in bed with you. She is the one who wants out of the M, so where she sleeps is her problem. You could say something like, "I am not leaving the marital bedroom. If you want to share my bed, I won't stop you.......but I am going to stay in my bed".

When she says something to the dogs intended for your ears, like it must be nice to sleep in the bed.......either ignore it, or agree. There is plenty you could be saying to the dogs.....right? But, that's a little immature, so don't stoop to that level.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
Thank you all for your support, it means a lot. Steve, I really appreciated your personal anecdote and agree that I don't think the A can last. I'm not getting my hopes up that it will implode sooner rather than later, but there is no denying that the odds are stacked against it.

Now that I have full awareness of the whole situation, there are some things that have become easier and some things harder. Easier--man it's like my spine got a growth hormone injection! I have no fear or hesitation standing up to her now. I am not rude, not a jerk, always maintain respect, but I have no problem telling her no. Even in the past 24 hours, the dynamic has noticeably changed because I simply won't let her put even one toe over the line. The tides are turning and I am gaining power back; she is noticing and the push-pull is in full effect. Now that I have completely stepped back, she is the one in the chaser position and I must admit it I'm enjoying it.

Harder--maintaining an attitude of love and respect at all times is a lot more difficult than it was. I need to be careful not make snide comments or jabbing jokes. We tend to joke competitively with each other anyway and now that my anger and hurt is an at an all-time high, it takes a lot of self control to make sure I don't let that seep into my tone or word choice. But I don't want to give her any ammunition at all to say that I am handling the situation less than perfectly. It is a bit strange to be fully aware and her not know that I am. I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?

Speaking of her pushing, she has been making continuous comments about the bed issue. Coming in in the mornings and saying to the dogs "Wow must be nice to sleep in this big comfy bed, huh?" Yesterday, she talked about how she hasn't been sleeping well, not so subtly implying her desire to move. Today, she declared "I am sleeping in my bed this weekend." I just ignored her. But I know she is going to push this. How she has the audacity I do not know. I will absolutely stand my ground, but I fear it will turn nasty. She has already said I am being difficult about it more than once. I am trying to work out how I can calmly, politely, but firmly silence her on the issue once and for all. Any advice is appreciated.

I have already given the line I wrote about in my previous post that explained to her why I was no longer willing to leave the bed. I will reiterate that when she says it again. But, if she pushes onward or tells me I'm being difficult, I am thinking about saying something like, "Ask yourself if you truly feel you have done nothing wrong to lose the right/privledge to sleep in our bed. Answer to yourself, not me. If the answer is yes, we can continue to discuss this. If the answer is no, the conversation is over." My hope is that this will shut her up, but if you guys think it won't and have a better strategy, I'm all ears smile.

I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good.


Mostly good stuff here! Good job on the spine growth, that is extremely important. The temptation in these cases is to become worms. Believe it or not WWs will respect you when you act manly and stand up to them.

"I am not going to confront her or say anything about it, but the more she pushes, the more I feel I will have to imply that she is in the wrong. Since she is in the wrong simply by breaking the marriage commitment, I think this is fine but eventually she might catch on that I know more than she thinks I do. I'm not sure if this is good or bad?"

Her not knowing exactly what you know is definitely a good thing. I think you are in a position of strength if she gets the inkling you are aware of something, but unsure of what you know. So yes, this is good. It will cause her to interact more and start temp checking and probing to figure out what you might know.

On the bed issue, yes stand your ground. When she says things about it refer to the Validation thread. Use validation to let her know you understand her feelings, but that you aren't open to negotiation. When it doubt, say nothing at all! Just get ready and get into your bed. She'll either protest, get with the program, or ask to return to the bed with you still in it.

"I am feeling more motivated and upbeat about myself and GAL than ever. I feel stronger and like I've taken a big step toward detachment. I'm no longer worried about upsetting her and my only goal is the be the best that I can be and make sure I can look back and be proud of how I used this difficult time for the greater good."

Just a word of caution I like to give to guys when they start to feel their mojo coming back. It is a good thing, but be aware that the emotional roller-coaster will continue. You will still have downs and that's easy to forget when you are on an up. The good news is that the downs get less and less frequent. But do not be taken by surprise. It is easy to give back gains you've made in the up times, but doing destructive, counter-productive things in the downs.

Also, when you interact with her never be sad or depressed. I like to tell guys to show a little anger. Never out of control, but firmness. "Why can't I just sleep in the bed tonight?" Firmly: "You are ALWAYS welcome to sleep in the bed, however, I WILL be there too!"

My wife always responded to my firmness with submissiveness, even in the midst of her waywardness!
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Jabbing type of jokes between marriage partners eventually cuts too close to a nerve and if the receiving spouse expresses hurt or anger, the spouse throwing the jab will claim s/he was just joking. It feeds an undercurrent of disrespect and unresolved issues. From my observations IRL, it is a dangerous game for a MR. This is the perfect time for you to end your line of the jabbing jokes, b/c I can almost promise that you will eventually say something from your place of betrayal. Dropping your end of that particular brand of playfulness when interacting with your W, will help you to maintain a more visible profile of love and respect.


I completely agree and this is what I intend to do. It is impossible to not allow any of my emotions to come out in comments or jokes of that nature, so I just have to avoid them altogether.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
No, it's too wordy and self-righteous. It sounds as if you are aiming for some type of confession from her. This is an example of how it would overflow into your so-called joking and most of your verbal interaction with her.......if you are not watchful over yourself.


Thanks for your feedback. I understand what you mean; I do not want a confession out of her. The 'wrong' doesn't even have to be the A, it could just be breaking the marriage vow. I don't want to sound self-righteous, I guess my struggle will be not feeling that way if she pushes me too far. It's hard not to feel like I am right when she insists that it is reasonable for her to get to sleep in the bed. I wouldn't use this type of wording at all if she doesn't push and push, I'm just worried she will. But, you're right, if she does, and my original statement wasn't enough for some reason, I will just tell her I can't control where she sleeps, but I will be in the bed regardless.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
If there is a second bedroom in the house, then she just needs to get another bed, a blow up mattress, or a sleeping bag. It's not your problem. No need for a preachy response, just say you aren't leaving your bed. There is no need to repeat your reasons. (For some reason, LBH's always feel it is necessary to "remind" and repeat points to the WW. No, she heard you the first time).


There is more than one extra room and the one she is in has two beds she can choose from, so I'm rather surprised she is having that much of a problem. I think she is mostly subconsciously (or even consciously) testing the boundary and trying to reestablish her familiar feeling of power and control. Which is why she is still pushing, despite definitely hearing me the first time.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
When she says something to the dogs intended for your ears, like it must be nice to sleep in the bed.......either ignore it, or agree. There is plenty you could be saying to the dogs.....right? But, that's a little immature, so don't stoop to that level.


I completely agree it is immature and if I have something to say, I will say it directly. I ignore all her indirect comments. She has extreme problems with passive-aggression and I have begun to just call her out on it. She will say things like "I'm hungry and don't know what to eat" and thinks that is her way of directly asking me to go make her some food. She tried to pull this just last night. She is sick and after five passive-aggressive comments, all of which I ignored, I said "if you really need me to get you something, you need to ask me directly." She still couldn't grasp the concept! She will learn quickly that I will no longer jump when she makes comments like these and if she ever wants anything from me, it better be important and she needs to be very explicit with the request.
Originally Posted By: Steve85

Mostly good stuff here! Good job on the spine growth, that is extremely important. The temptation in these cases is to become worms. Believe it or not WWs will respect you when you act manly and stand up to them.


This is one thing that became very clear to me after all my reading here. I definitely won't be the worm!

Originally Posted By: Steve85
Her not knowing exactly what you know is definitely a good thing. I think you are in a position of strength if she gets the inkling you are aware of something, but unsure of what you know. So yes, this is good. It will cause her to interact more and start temp checking and probing to figure out what you might know.


This is exactly what I was thinking. Glad to have it reinforced. It all plays into the 'curiosity' element that seems to be what you want when using LRT. This is the one area that gives me the most hope for any possible recon, actually. She temp checks me and probes CONSTANTLY. Not about what I know of the A (yet anyway), but everything else. Every single day, she asks me what I plan to do, what I did do, how I'm feeling, if I'm mad, etc. She is clearly not detached in that she definitely cares what I think, feel, and do. At first, this made it harder for me to detach, but now that I know it only makes her pursue more, I can do it confidently and know it's the best course of action.

Originally Posted By: Steve85
On the bed issue, yes stand your ground. When she says things about it refer to the Validation thread. Use validation to let her know you understand her feelings, but that you aren't open to negotiation. When it doubt, say nothing at all! Just get ready and get into your bed. She'll either protest, get with the program, or ask to return to the bed with you still in it.


Wise words. My first instinct is always wordy and long-winded. I am compelled to talk and talk. It's great that both you and Sandi have easily recognized this and checked me on it. I will remember to validate and keep my words simple and not repeat myself.

Originally Posted By: Steve85
Just a word of caution I like to give to guys when they start to feel their mojo coming back. It is a good thing, but be aware that the emotional roller-coaster will continue. You will still have downs and that's easy to forget when you are on an up. The good news is that the downs get less and less frequent. But do not be taken by surprise. It is easy to give back gains you've made in the up times, but doing destructive, counter-productive things in the downs.


Also great advice. I totally understand as I am most definitely on the roller-coaster and my emotions are extremely volatile. I can already feel the downs becoming less frequent though, so I remind myself of this when I'm there. Definitely don't want to give back any gains.

Originally Posted By: Steve85
Also, when you interact with her never be sad or depressed. I like to tell guys to show a little anger. Never out of control, but firmness. "Why can't I just sleep in the bed tonight?" Firmly: "You are ALWAYS welcome to sleep in the bed, however, I WILL be there too!"


This is where the biggest benefit is for me now that I fully know of the A. I am a very mellow, even-tempered person and it's hard to get me angry. Now I have a source and as long as I keep it in check, I think I can harness it to help me be more firm. I never act sad or depressed, but she does frequently ask if I'm mad, even when I'm not. I know MWD says to be upbeat and pleasant, so I am trying to work on this as it clearly isn't the message I have been sending. I have been pretty serious and determined to go about my own business and I guess W mistakes it for anger. Other than times where she pushes and the anger/firmness is warranted, I am trying to be happier and more upbeat.

Originally Posted By: Steve85
My wife always responded to my firmness with submissiveness, even in the midst of her waywardness!


I am just starting to see this as well and it is very encouraging for me to keep going! Because I have always been such a noodle, it totally reinforces everything everyone here has been telling me and I'm more determined than ever to grow my spine and get rid of my NGS. It's almost addicting getting some power back in the relationship, I don't know how I let myself lose so much of it along the way.
Originally Posted By: 44tries


This is where the biggest benefit is for me now that I fully know of the A. I am a very mellow, even-tempered person and it's hard to get me angry. Now I have a source and as long as I keep it in check, I think I can harness it to help me be more firm. I never act sad or depressed, but she does frequently ask if I'm mad, even when I'm not. I know MWD says to be upbeat and pleasant, so I am trying to work on this as it clearly isn't the message I have been sending. I have been pretty serious and determined to go about my own business and I guess W mistakes it for anger. Other than times where she pushes and the anger/firmness is warranted, I am trying to be happier and more upbeat.


I want to encourage you here. If she is asking "are you mad" then you are probably doing detachment right! When I would detach well, my wife would always temp check me with a "is there something wrong?" As positively and upbeat as I could be without overdoing it I would respond with "Nope, everything is great!" You've already said that she is constantly temp checking, asking you what you are doing and did. So she is probably uber-sensitive to any changes you make. So if you detach properly she will take note. That may be her "are you mad?" is all about.

Concentrate on your detachment. How she reads it or interprets it is on her. So don't do change it based on her reaction. I think from what you have said you are doing really really well! So keep up the good work!
Quote:
She will say things like "I'm hungry and don't know what to eat" and thinks that is her way of directly asking me to go make her some food


Even if that is her signal for you to jump and fix her some food.........why would you? (You are too accommodating). She can either fix what you have prepared, or she can get what she wants. I am not the best at giving examples of come-back responses b/c my tongue is a little sharp for most cases. I would probably say something like, "Sounds like a problem", and leave at that. If she doesn't know what she wants, how the heck are you suppose to know?
Originally Posted By: Steve85

I want to encourage you here. If she is asking "are you mad" then you are probably doing detachment right! When I would detach well, my wife would always temp check me with a "is there something wrong?" As positively and upbeat as I could be without overdoing it I would respond with "Nope, everything is great!" You've already said that she is constantly temp checking, asking you what you are doing and did. So she is probably uber-sensitive to any changes you make. So if you detach properly she will take note. That may be her "are you mad?" is all about.

Concentrate on your detachment. How she reads it or interprets it is on her. So don't do change it based on her reaction. I think from what you have said you are doing really really well! So keep up the good work!


Thanks so much, Steve! This really made me smile. After being here a few weeks, doing so much reading and posting, it's easy to feel I am so far from where I want/need to be. My eyes were really opened to how weak and accommodating I have been in my MR and how sorely I am lacking leadership skills. I do not want to be the desperate, powerless doormat anymore. It feels really good to know that I have made some positive progress and it is evident.

W called down to me just a few minutes ago, asking what I'm doing and if I'm mad. I really do think it is just her puzzlement at my detachment. Now every time she asks I will use it as motivation to keep pushing forward. smile
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Even if that is her signal for you to jump and fix her some food.........why would you? (You are too accommodating). She can either fix what you have prepared, or she can get what she wants. I am not the best at giving examples of come-back responses b/c my tongue is a little sharp for most cases. I would probably say something like, "Sounds like a problem", and leave at that. If she doesn't know what she wants, how the heck are you suppose to know?


I ask myself that question everyday, Sandi. Well, I used to anyway. W lives in a way where she just lets things happen to her. She doesn't know what she wants and doesn't take the proper steps to figure it out. She is afraid of the responsibility of making decisions and constantly tries to offload it onto me--even down to what food we eat. If something goes wrong, she wants to be able to blame someone else. Yes, I have been way too accommodating and put up with her passive-aggressive musings and jumped in to try to solve all her dilemmas, no matter how small. But that was the old way. Now, I have no interest in guessing what food she might like or making it for her.

I have a question for you, as I have been reading through all of your WW threads now that I know my W fully qualifies. I understand the best action for me is to drop all ropes as quickly as possible; make her feel the loss of me and all that entails to the fullest extent that I can. The sooner, the better. Everything at once. Of course, this all falls in line with normal DB techniques like detaching, GAL, etc that I have already been doing. However, I sense that with WWs it can be necessary/beneficial for it to be a bit harsher. You phrase it as tough love.

My dilemma is that the A is not in the open. She does not know that I know about it. And as I have mentioned, she is still very attached (for lack of a better word) in that she does the constant temp checks, asking me tons of questions etc. So, I cannot offer justification for drastic tough love behavior. For example, the bed situation. In your posts, you say the message should be "I won't sleep with a cheater." Obviously I can't say that (and in this case, I already know what I will say as we've discussed, I'm just using it as the example). Similarly, most of the steps seem to be underlined with the message "you cheated, I no longer have interest in talking/hanging out with you/having anything to do with you and you will no longer receive anything from me". I feel like the message I send cannot be as strong since the A is not exposed. Does this make sense?

I presume the answer is to just aggressively DB the best I can. The less I am available and around, the more she will feel my loss. But after reading the WW threads, I am afraid the tough love won't be tough enough...would love to know your thoughts on this, given you are aware of my individual situation. Thank you again for all your help.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
Originally Posted By: Steve85

I want to encourage you here. If she is asking "are you mad" then you are probably doing detachment right! When I would detach well, my wife would always temp check me with a "is there something wrong?" As positively and upbeat as I could be without overdoing it I would respond with "Nope, everything is great!" You've already said that she is constantly temp checking, asking you what you are doing and did. So she is probably uber-sensitive to any changes you make. So if you detach properly she will take note. That may be her "are you mad?" is all about.

Concentrate on your detachment. How she reads it or interprets it is on her. So don't do change it based on her reaction. I think from what you have said you are doing really really well! So keep up the good work!


Thanks so much, Steve! This really made me smile. After being here a few weeks, doing so much reading and posting, it's easy to feel I am so far from where I want/need to be. My eyes were really opened to how weak and accommodating I have been in my MR and how sorely I am lacking leadership skills. I do not want to be the desperate, powerless doormat anymore. It feels really good to know that I have made some positive progress and it is evident.

W called down to me just a few minutes ago, asking what I'm doing and if I'm mad. I really do think it is just her puzzlement at my detachment. Now every time she asks I will use it as motivation to keep pushing forward. smile


Knowing it is working is great motivation! Good call on the leadership thing too! We aren't supposed to mention other authors here but try googling leadership in marriage. Some good advice out there on this topic.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
Similarly, most of the steps seem to be underlined with the message "you cheated, I no longer have interest in talking/hanging out with you/having anything to do with you and you will no longer receive anything from me". I feel like the message I send cannot be as strong since the A is not exposed. Does this make sense?

What if you stopped worrying so much about what you say and focus more on saying those sentiments with your actions?
Quote:
My dilemma is that the A is not in the open. She does not know that I know about it. And as I have mentioned, she is still very attached (for lack of a better word) in that she does the constant temp checks, asking me tons of questions etc. So, I cannot offer justification for drastic tough love behavior. For example, the bed situation. In your posts, you say the message should be "I won't sleep with a cheater." Obviously I can't say that (and in this case, I already know what I will say as we've discussed, I'm just using it as the example). Similarly, most of the steps seem to be underlined with the message "you cheated, I no longer have interest in talking/hanging out with you/having anything to do with you and you will no longer receive anything from me". I feel like the message I send cannot be as strong since the A is not exposed. Does this make sense?


Yes, it does make sense and you are right. If your W does not know you are aware of her A, then she doesn't have to sleep in a separate bed. But if she knows that you know she is betraying you and dishonoring the M, and if you continue to sleep with her.........it appears, IMHO, that you are compromising with the infidelity.

Once the WW knows that you have found out about her affair, she watches you to see how you are going to react. Instinct tells her that there should be some type of response. If she sees you wanting to sleep with her, accommodating her, pursuing her, etc........any lasting respect she may have, flies out the window, b/c she knows you should not want a woman who has disrespected you to this degree.

So, it kind of places pressure on the H to do something, once it comes out that his W is cheating. That's why I tell H's not to confront the WW about her A, unless he is prepared to apply tough love. Confrontation does nothing but alert her that he knows. I'm not against confrontation. I am against confrontation without a plan. Confrontation puts pressure on the WW to do something, too. However, it often results in an action the H did not want. He's thinking if he confronts her that she'll end the A. ATM, I can't think of a case where that actually worked. I can remember stories where the WW would claim she would end it........but in reality, she took the A deeper underground and covered her tracks better.

What I am hoping you will do in your situation, is to get your b@lls back, first, and become an attractive male to your W. Once she knows you are aware of the A, then things immediately go into high gear and much more is required from you. It will harder living with her. You think it's difficult now? Just let her know you've discovered her A!
Originally Posted By: Amoafwl

What if you stopped worrying so much about what you say and focus more on saying those sentiments with your actions?


O, I absolutely agree. I wasn't meaning I wanted to say those things. I was referring to the actions I would take that would 'say' those things. Actions that say I want nothing to do with you, basically. If she doesn't know I know she is cheating, taking actions that send that strong of a message will seem unwarranted. That's what I was asking about.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Yes, it does make sense and you are right. If your W does not know you are aware of her A, then she doesn't have to sleep in a separate bed. But if she knows that you know she is betraying you and dishonoring the M, and if you continue to sleep with her.........it appears, IMHO, that you are compromising with the infidelity.


Perfectly stated. This is the reason I was worried, because I do not want to do anything that makes it appear I am willing to compromise with infidelity. But if she doesn't know, then I guess it can't appear that way.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Once the WW knows that you have found out about her affair, she watches you to see how you are going to react. Instinct tells her that there should be some type of response. If she sees you wanting to sleep with her, accommodating her, pursuing her, etc........any lasting respect she may have, flies out the window, b/c she knows you should not want a woman who has disrespected you to this degree.

So, it kind of places pressure on the H to do something, once it comes out that his W is cheating. That's why I tell H's not to confront the WW about her A, unless he is prepared to apply tough love. Confrontation does nothing but alert her that he knows. I'm not against confrontation. I am against confrontation without a plan. Confrontation puts pressure on the WW to do something, too. However, it often results in an action the H did not want. He's thinking if he confronts her that she'll end the A. ATM, I can't think of a case where that actually worked. I can remember stories where the WW would claim she would end it........but in reality, she took the A deeper underground and covered her tracks better.


Right, this is more or less what I would have assumed. I don't see any reason to confront or press the issue, because right now, she has the wayward mindset. Like you said, I can only see that pressure pushing her further down that road.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What I am hoping you will do in your situation, is to get your b@lls back, first, and become an attractive male to your W. Once she knows you are aware of the A, then things immediately go into high gear and much more is required from you. It will harder living with her. You think it's difficult now? Just let her know you've discovered her A!


Thank you, this is exactly what I wanted to know. I just got worried after reading the WW that there was some kind of window or timely need to drop all ropes ASAP. You spoke of the H's ability to influence the loss that may break the fog. I want to do that to the best of my ability, but given the circumstances, I think the best way is to just detach and GAL as much as I possibly can. I know she will feel loss just by my being unavailable and doing my own thing. She already has to some degree and I just want to capitalize on that. My hope is that the extreme tough love tactics won't be necessary in my case to make her feel sufficient loss.

My plan is to be much less available than I used to be and when I am around, prove that I will no longer accommodate and I can be a leader, along with some other 180s centered around areas I feel contributed to her loss of respect. I read your thread on reasons Ws lose respect and it was gold. Sadly, I saw myself in many of the points. It is very frustrating to have so much newfound awareness and know I may never get the chance to truly implement it, at least in this particular MR.
44tries:

I'm very sorry you are in your situation.

In your first post you asked, "Do I keep trying?"

Step back from all the details of your situation and take a look at the big picture:

- You two are young.
- Your wife wasn't sure she wanted to marry you.
- Your wife isn't sure she's attracted to you.
- Your marriage broke down only a year or into the marriage.

Divorce busting baaaaaarely works for those who had a VERY solid marriage to begin with, if they had a strong, healthy fundamental connection that formed the foundation of the marriage.

My answer to your question: No.

Let her go. Let yourself go from a mistake you both made. Move on with your life. You are young. Life is long.
44tries,

ForGump talks of that which we do not speak. I kind-of agree with him because the best chance of getting your wife back would be to let her go - completely.

The problem is, now that you know about the affair, even though she doesn't know that you know, you're just playing a cat-and-mouse game. It's just a tactic that delays the inevitable.
Originally Posted By: ForGump
44tries:
I'm very sorry you are in your situation.

In your first post you asked, "Do I keep trying?"

Step back from all the details of your situation and take a look at the big picture:

- You two are young.
- Your wife wasn't sure she wanted to marry you.
- Your wife isn't sure she's attracted to you.
- Your marriage broke down only a year or into the marriage.

Divorce busting baaaaaarely works for those who had a VERY solid marriage to begin with, if they had a strong, healthy fundamental connection that formed the foundation of the marriage.

My answer to your question: No.

Let her go. Let yourself go from a mistake you both made. Move on with your life. You are young. Life is long.


Thank you for your honesty. I think it is easy to feel you are fighting the valiant fight, determined to save the marriage no matter what. But I am not blind to the fact that sometimes this fight is not one of courage and perseverance, but one of fear and desperation. I have spent a lot of time looking at the same big picture you lay out here, even before this particular crisis began. Despite the immense pain and sorrow it brings me, I have made peace with the fact that there is a strong chance you are right.

I may never know exactly how my wife's feelings for me have ebbed and flowed over the years we have been together. I will never know just how sure or unsure she was the day she vowed to love me forever. The only thing I can be sure of is myself and the level of love and commitment I have. I do not want my old marriage back and neither does my W. My DB efforts are not an attempt to lure her back and hold her prisoner. Rather to challenge myself to face my own flaws and contributions to the breakdown, and change permanently for the better. I want to use the profound effect this experience has had on me to fuel positive growth and awareness in myself that otherwise may not have been possible. If there is some tiny chance my wife looks up and sees a man who reminds her that we did at one time have an intense love and connection and maybe there is something salvageable, then great. If not, I am okay with the fact some things are broken beyond repair and were never meant to be. I can walk away not with the regret of a 'mistake', but with a lot of great memories and the closure of a chapter that was instrumental in shaping and pushing me to be the man I will become.
Originally Posted By: doodler
44tries,

ForGump talks of that which we do not speak. I kind-of agree with him because the best chance of getting your wife back would be to let her go - completely.

The problem is, now that you know about the affair, even though she doesn't know that you know, you're just playing a cat-and-mouse game. It's just a tactic that delays the inevitable.



I didn't really follow your last statement, "It's just a tactic that delays the inevitable."
44tries,

The inevitable refers to your wife finding out that you know about the affair. She already suspects you know, and in fact, she probably left her phone unattended so you'd snoop. Now you have a choice, you can play games or you get to the heart of the matter.
I don't see it as a game. I see it as Intel that in no way changes how he should be DBing his WW. I think 44 is in a good place with this and shouldn't upset the apple cart just now with a confrontation.

Many on this board think WASs are so crafty about leaving their phones unattended for the LBS to find. And maybe some are. And then a lot of times people are just careless because that's what humans sometimes are.
Doodler,

Thank you for clarifying, I see what you were saying now. I'm not sure that she suspects I know. I confronted her about the texting that one time, but I was very unassuming and as far as I know she bought that I was just being precautionary (at the time, I really didn't know anything for sure). As for leaving the phone intentionally, it's certainly possible, but I don't think so. I have thought about why she seems so careless about the whole thing--does she really think I'm dumb? Is she dumb, as often happens with cheaters? Does she subconsciously or consciously want me to know? Who knows. But I have also wondered why, if she truly wants me gone and doesn't care about burning the bridge, she wouldn't just tell me. Seems like pretty strong ammunition to get me out the door.

Anyway, it sounds like you think I should confront her. I agree that inevitably it will have to come to light, one way or another. But, as Sandi and Steve have said, it feels like confrontation now will just push her further down that road. Right now I have time on my side and can focus on myself and DB, and let the A run whatever course it's going to. I don't think have any control over it, whether she knows I know or not. I won't deny there are times when it's extremely difficult to just sit or drive quietly while she's two feet away sending little heart emojis or whatever the ****. But I limit these times to the minimum I can and assume this is where tremendous patience and self-control are required. I would love to hear more of your thoughts on "getting to the heart of the matter", though. All opinions welcome.


Steve,

Your input is in line with the way I thought I was supposed to be handling it. I am rather new to this 'game' stuff and didn't really think of it that way either. What is the reason a WAS would leave their phone for LBS to find rather than just tell them if they want them to know? They don't have the guts? I don't really want any of this to be a game. I just want to handle this awful situation the best way possible, come out the other side in one piece stronger than I was before, and leave no stone unturned if there is any chance to save the marriage.
From the VERY limited number of people I have gotten any "real life" feedback from on my situation, they also seem to think I need to confront her. I'm aware they probably have bias and have no real idea in the way of DBing. But, I don't want to get too far down one tunnel, so I'm considering it objectively knowing there seems be a consensus there.

I'm really torn because I can see a lot of logic on both sides. I am okay and able to go either direction; I just want to do what's best. Would love to hear more thoughts on this issue. Sandi, you mentioned the exposure puts a lot of 'pressure on the H to do something.' Could you expound on this more? Thanks everyone.
One last question I forgot to include--you talk about how once she knows of the A, any act I do like accommodate or be friendly could be interpreted as willing to compromise with it and any respect she has left flies out the window. My question is when she learns I know, won't the fact that she can look back and know I knew at this time, have the same effect? I hope that made sense.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
My question is when she learns I know, won't the fact that she can look back and know I knew at this time, have the same effect?


44tries,

Yes. Thus, you either have the conversation or you go play games.
What do you hope to gain by "confronting" your wife? What more do you need to know about how she feels?

If you feel you need to know more, then just talk to her, but be real.

You don't have to feel guilty about looking at her phone. Just say you did it. If she passes judgment, who cares. It's done, you did it, so what. This is really hard on you, it's confusing, and you're trying to find your way through it. No apologies, no excuses needed.

Stop thinking in terms of "if I do X, then she'll do Y, then I'll do Z". The more you treat this as a chess game, the more you dig yourself into a hole of suffering.

Find your self respect and honor, and build it. If you don't see those qualities in yourself, your wife probably won't either.

You'll get through this.
I don't hope to "gain" anything. There is nothing I need to know. I know confronting her is not some magical fix to my pain or the MR, and my job will become much harder if I do it.

In some ways, it feels like an opportunity to show self-respect, leadership, and the fact that I have a spine. What better way than to draw a hard line and make it clear this behavior is completely unacceptable and won't be tolerated. Sandi always talks about making the W feel like she's the one being dumped. Well, I could certainly use this to try to turn the tables. The problem is it's sort of an all or nothing gamble; I have to be prepared to truly drop her. I have already lost her, though, so I don't really have anything to lose in the gamble. Everyone says the turning point is when your W knows (not thinks) she's lost you.

On the other side of the coin, it's hard to give up the perceived opportunity to DB in much calmer waters. I have to live in this house with her. We are on good terms now. In fact, if it weren't for the A, I would be pretty hopeful. MWD talks about the 3rd step being to watch, watch, watch. Look for signs of interest and improvement. Well, my W is the one who follows me around the house like a puppy. I am the one to politely close the door in her face when it's bedtime because she lingers. Anything she does that isn't work, she invites me to come along. I can definitely see the appeal to ignoring the A (especially since it's so fantasy-based), and trying to build on the positive signs.

Ultimately, I want to do what's best for me. I don't want to focus on her or the MR. Of course I care about that, but it doesn't take priority over my well-being. That's why some alarm bells went off when I got the feedback that I can't suffer in silence. But again, I'm trying to be objective. ForGump and doodler are right, though--I don't want to treat this like a chess game or any type of game at all. Perhaps that only leaves one choice...
Aw man buddy really wish I could read your response! Hope they fix this issue soon...
How do you envision a confrontation?
Originally Posted By: sandi2
How do you envision a confrontation?


Good question. I have been thinking about it a lot today. I don't want to be angry or self-righteous. I don't want to prepare a wordy speech and end up looking like a wimp with a canned monologue. If I do confront her, I want to be real and honest; I want her to know that I know exactly what she's done and that she utterly betrayed the copious amounts of trust I extended to her. Mostly, I want her to feel deep down in her heart that there is a very real chance she could not earn back that trust even if she wanted to. It can be simple and firm, but I want her to feel like I'm the one dumping her for crossing that line. If I do it, I'm prepared to give up all our friendly dates and outings. She can feel what it's like not to call on me for anything. No more asking me to bring her a snack or trying to tell me she's going to the store and then 5 minutes later asking if I want to join her. I will be closed for anything than other than civil neighborly interaction.

Now, I realize that might not have answered your question. How do I actually think a confrontation would go? I honestly can't tell you with any real certainty how I think she would react. She claims to care so much about hurting me, how sorry she is for all of it. But then she lied, even after being explicitly told it will hurt me more. She knowingly chose to do the most hurtful thing she could do to me. That is so far from my expectation and familiarity of her 'normal' behavior that I can't really begin to guess how she will respond to it being out in the open. I guess it depends how 'wayward' her heart really is. I could see 3 responses. 1. Guilt. She is overwhelmed with guilt and breaks down and apologizes (don't worry, I know this would just be selfish soothing for herself) 2. Shut down. No real response at all. Just saying okay to whatever I decide to say. 3. Defensiveness. Getting angry and nasty, grilling me on whether I snooped, trying to turn the heat off of herself.
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I want her to feel like I'm the one dumping her for crossing that line


And that is why I don't think it will go as you want. The only way she'll feel you are dumping her, is for you to actually leave. That's the only thing that will carry weight, once you confront her.

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I'm prepared to give up all our friendly dates and outings. She can feel what it's like not to call on me for anything. No more asking me to bring her a snack or trying to tell me she's going to the store and then 5 minutes later asking if I want to join her. I will be closed for anything than other than civil neighborly interaction.


Maybe you are prepared to pull back on dates/outings and not be your usual friendly, accommodating self, but are you really prepared to leave the M? Do you honestly think being less accommodating will be enough to spur her into ending her A, once you let her know that you know? It won't. That's why it puts more pressure on the H to be tougher.

Upon confrontation, the WW may deny the A............but at any rate, she may claim OM has nothing to do with her change of feelings toward you. She'll say that the M was over before OM came along. She may take that opportunity to tell you she doesn't love you any more and wants out of the M. She may also claim she can't trust you again, b/c you invaded her privacy and looked at her messages.

What if she admits the truth? What if she says she won't end it? It's rare, but it does happen. Then what?

My guess is that she'll get angry at you for snooping, and she'll claim they are just friends. I think she'll tell you she doesn't know what she wants, and that's how she'll leave it. Then what do you do?
Originally Posted By: sandi2

And that is why I don't think it will go as you want. The only way she'll feel you are dumping her, is for you to actually leave. That's the only thing that will carry weight, once you confront her.


This is what I was afraid of. I feel very powerless in the fact that I don't have any logistical leverage. It's not that I wouldn't be willing to leave, it just would cause a whole different set of hardships for me. Feels like a lose, lose.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Maybe you are prepared to pull back on dates/outings and not be your usual friendly, accommodating self, but are you really prepared to leave the M? Do you honestly think being less accommodating will be enough to spur her into ending her A, once you let her know that you know? It won't. That's why it puts more pressure on the H to be tougher.


I didn't really think of it like I am trying to spur her to end her A. More like make sure she knows she doesn't have me as plan B. Right now, she likely thinks I am a clueless fool who she could run back to without much resistance. How do I change that? I didn't really think I had any influence over her ending the A. Only over how much she feels she has to sacrifice me for it.

I'm imagining I'm holding onto a bag of a million dollars hanging out of an airplane. Someone is telling me if I let go of the bag, there is x% chance I get 2 million dollars. But, if I don't let go, I get nothing, not even the bag I won't let go of. Logically, the answer is obvious. But for some reason I cannot let go of the bag. In my head right now, confronting her and telling her I want nothing to do with her is letting go of the bag. It feels like the right thing and I'm trying to force myself to do it. But maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way... It feels almost like you are saying the strategy could be a good one, but you don't think I'm tough/strong enough to actually do it (no offense taken). If it was executed perfectly, do you think it's my best chance or is it categorically the wrong way to go?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Upon confrontation, the WW may deny the A............but at any rate, she may claim OM has nothing to do with her change of feelings toward you. She'll say that the M was over before OM came along. She may take that opportunity to tell you she doesn't love you any more and wants out of the M. She may also claim she can't trust you again, b/c you invaded her privacy and looked at her messages.


She has certainly denied it up to this point, so I don't doubt it is a real possibility. Everything you are saying makes sense, Sandi. It's the reason I am not sold on confronting her.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What if she admits the truth? What if she says she won't end it? It's rare, but it does happen. Then what?


I didn't realize it was that rare for confrontation to be met with admission. Surely, most of the time it is true and there is a strong if not total amount of certainty from the accuser? It's actually hard for to imagine telling her I know and having her still deny it. But, you're right even if she concedes, I could very well be in a worse spot. Like I said, my main thought is just that at least she will be shaken with the fact that I am disgusted and have no trust or desire for her right now and I can avoid playing the "games" like doodler mentioned.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
My guess is that she'll get angry at you for snooping, and she'll claim they are just friends. I think she'll tell you she doesn't know what she wants, and that's how she'll leave it. Then what do you do?


Well if she knows I snooped, I don't know how she could claim that. What I saw left absolutely no room for 'friendship'....anyway thank you Sandi, I completely agree with everything you've said here. You have talked me down from the ledge for now, but I still feel very conflicted about remaining so powerless in the situation. I am very clear that until she gains some respect back, and has some real fear of losing me, I don't stand much chance. You said earlier, do you really think stopping the accommodation is enough to bring her around? No, I don't.
Forgot to add--I have read a lot of posts from you about how you have never seen a successful in-house separation. I agree, it's a less than ideal situation. But it's pretty discouraging to hear that and I'm not sure what to do about it.

I am starting to get a little ahead of myself and go down the over-analyzing tunnel. This week I am going to try to post more on my GAL and me stuff. Weekends are always sort of a vortex sucking me in because W is home and we spend more time together.
In house separations are not a fun place to be, I know. I feel for you. Regarding your decision to confront or not, I can only tell you about my experience and my thoughts a couple months after I did it. So here goes a fairly detailed explanation.

I am very glad I confronted W. I'd do it differently now, but I can't change it. I had suspicions for awhile, but the day I had evidence I couldn't wait to confront her. I found texts in the morning before she left for work, and I stewed all day. How I stood in front of rooms full of people and lectured that day I don't know. I had a whole thing planned out to say assuming she would deny it, but she came clean immediately. I took her into our bedroom and asked for compete, brutal honesty. Well, she gave it. I asked her what she goes to bed thinking about every night (their texts included some about wanting to fall asleep next to each other). Her face went pale, she looked to the floor, and quietly said "him." I thought I was prepared for this. I wasn't. My stern disposition immediately cracked, and I started crying. I cry when I'm both angry or sad, so the combination was impossible for me to stop. She said she only developed these feelings since divorce became a real possibility. I told her that's not fair blah blah blah all weak statements out of me. She was surprised I didn't kick her out of the house. Looking back, I wish I had.

I knew OM was still at their school, and I grabbed my keys and went to leave. She asked where I was going, and I told her I was going to confront OM. She said, "I think you should." This stopped me dead in my tracks. It was the opposite of what I expected. Why would she think this? I asked her. She said she thought we(me and OM) should talk about it. Looking back, I think she expected me to listen to him and understand that they were in love. They were just friends that grew into something more.That there was nothing sinister behind, it and he would treat her right and that I should be happy for them. I waited until the next day, because I didn't want to go to my old work and beat the crap out of one of the teachers there. If I went that night it probably would have happened. The next day I confronted OM, and he seemed to feel true remorse. More than W at least. He agreed to end all contact with her (at least until we divorced if it came to that). W was furious when I told her this. She contacted him the next day and he told her he wouldn't talk to her anymore beyond what was necessary for work, and I believe this to be true. He told her he didn't want to be the reason a family fell apart (I actually think he means it as naive as I might be, but if we do divorce I have no doubt they will get together).

The following day she had some sort of mental breakdown you may have read about in my thread. I'm sure it was from him distancing from her. She's now in limbo trying to decide between staying with our family and being alone (her words, she says he does not factor into her thought process but I call BS). I tell you all this so I can say what I wish I had done differently. The way I confronted OM was the right thing to do in my particular situation. We know each other, and sadly I trust him to honor the no contact rule more than W. This is why I wish I was harder on her when I was confronting her. The A ended because I talked OM into it, not because my wife chose to end it. I didn't shock her out of her fog, he did. I wish I had told her to grab some clothes and get out. That she was not welcome in our house until she ended the A. That I would not be with a woman that disrespected me like this. You see, I'm prepared for losing her now. I wasn't then.

How this would have played out, I don't know. I might be worse off for all I know. I just wish I had shown more strength during the confrontation. I wish I had shown more backbone. I wish I had respected myself like I do over 2 months later. I'm not an expert and can't give you advice that I know will work, but maybe you can learn from my experience. If you choose to confront, be calm, stern, and collected. Be prepared for anything. Know what you want to get out of it and know what you are prepared to do. I wasn't and regret it. Best of luck with whatever you choose to do.
MRay, Please know how much I appreciate your story. Thank you for sharing it. I have actually been looking through the boards trying to find examples of people faced with the confrontation dilemma.

I must say your W's response was pretty promising, relatively speaking. I think you got through a huge obstacle on your journey if the A is truly over, and I'm really glad for you. If I knew my W would act similarly, I probably wouldn't hesitate as much. How did you find the messages? Did you have to 'snoop', and if so, was she upset?

I hadn't even considered the possibility of contacting the OM. I do know him, but not well enough to be sure of his character. For some reason, I just assumed this was a huge no-no and would cause her to hate me forever. But you provide an interesting illustration of an alternative.

I totally understand about the need for strength and coolness during the confrontation. I am very worried about it turning into something like you described. I know how difficult it is and despite all I have learned and grown, that would be like an ultimate test. Am I really prepared to do what it takes (lose her) to actually shake her fog? Like you said, you were only at that place two months later. But I don't really see how I can delay it. I either confront her now or essentially gamble on the A ending on it's own "within 6 months" as MWD says. If I confront her later, I fear I will just look weak regardless.



Thank you all for your feedback. Even though it may be conflicting, it's great to look at it from all angles.
Yes, I had to snoop to get the info. I couldn't ignore my instincts any longer. As part of my confrontation I wouldn't allow her to have her phone in her room for a few weeks. I spent that time reading through all their messages (I couldn't sleep, enjoyed torturing myself apparently, and wanted to confirm certain things they said). After awhile I let her take it into her room because I felt it was ridiculous. If she wanted to talk to him she could. And that would mean we were over. I made that very clear. She has never said anything about being upset or anything like that for my snooping. Whether she is or not I don't really know. And like I said, the A isn't currently on (that I know of), but I'm sure she still wants it. Her feelings for OM are still there, and she is only not acting on them because he won't for now. That's why I wish I could change the way I confronted her. I'm pretty sure she hasn't left because she doesn't know for sure that he will have her and all her baggage now that he's been confronted with it.

For full disclosure. She didn't change her phone's password until we officially decided to divorce about 3 weeks ago. She immediately changed it at this point, so I couldn't snoop now if I wanted to even though we're back in limbo. I'm sure if I asked she'd show me, but I feel that would be weak and counterproductive.
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Right now, she likely thinks I am a clueless fool who she could run back to without much resistance. How do I change that?


Well, that's what we hope to accomplish. I won't say there will never be a time for you to confront her. I'm saying the time is not now. You aren't ready.

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I didn't really think I had any influence over her ending the A. Only over how much she feels she has to sacrifice me for it.


I don't know if you realize it, but that last sentence is very good.....and says volumes. Becoming that man only a fool would sacrifice for an affair is admirable. Unfortunately, there are a lot fools running around out there.......but if you come through this ordeal being a better man, then you will have gained something very valuable that a piece of paper doesn't determine. Know what I mean? In other words, a marriage license or a divorce decree does not make the man. You make the man.

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In my head right now, confronting her and telling her I want nothing to do with her is letting go of the bag. It feels like the right thing and I'm trying to force myself to do it. But maybe I'm thinking about it the wrong way... It feels almost like you are saying the strategy could be a good one, but you don't think I'm tough/strong enough to actually do it (no offense taken). If it was executed perfectly, do you think it's my best chance or is it categorically the wrong way to go?


I really believe you are thinking of tactics. Someone suggests confrontation and you can't get it out of your head until you do it. I've watched this played out over the past eleven years of reading stories on this forum. If it was executed perfectly? Yes, it would probably be your best chance. Do you know how to execute it perfectly? It very seldom goes the way the H imagines. If you don't know much about the mindset of a wayward, then you will be sorely disappointed in the outcome.

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I didn't realize it was that rare for confrontation to be met with admission. Surely, most of the time it is true and there is a strong if not total amount of certainty from the accuser? It's actually hard for to imagine telling her I know and having her still deny it.


Listen, women have denied it when the H would play a recording of the lovers having sex, show photos of them together, and a record of all their text messages. I can count on one hand how rare it is for a WW to admit her affair when the H confronts her.

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Like I said, my main thought is just that at least she will be shaken with the fact that I am disgusted and have no trust or desire for her right now and I can avoid playing the "games" like doodler mentioned.


This is what concerns me. You are placing too much hope in emotions. You don't even understand the makeup of a wayward W. No, she won't be shaken! She doesn't care what you think about her.

I kept trying to get you to say what you expected when you confronted her. Now I know you hoped she would feel sorry about it, and above all, would not want to lose your respect and trust in her. I wish it was that simple. In the mindset of a wayward, that's kind of like.........the side effects. If the side effects are not bigger than the high she gets from her drug of choice (which is her EA), then she won't stop the drug. See what I mean? The side effects may be uncomfortable, but she's hooked on the drug and she'll keep it until it's not worth the side effects. But remember, you are dealing with an illogical person. Therefore, you will have to get really tough (side effects), live with it, or get out of it. There are only three choices.

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Originally Posted By: Sandi2
My guess is that she'll get angry at you for snooping, and she'll claim they are just friends. I think she'll tell you she doesn't know what she wants, and that's how she'll leave it. Then what do you do?


Well if she knows I snooped, I don't know how she could claim that.


She can! WW's can twist things around and get the H so confused he doesn't know if he's coming or going. She would make this a case about you violating her privacy.

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I completely agree with everything you've said here. You have talked me down from the ledge for now, but I still feel very conflicted about remaining so powerless in the situation. I am very clear that until she gains some respect back, and has some real fear of losing me, I don't stand much chance. You said earlier, do you really think stopping the accommodation is enough to bring her around? No, I don't.


For today, I am trying to keep you from jumping off into something you don't know what you are doing. Newcomer make a big leap, then come back crying and asking what to do next. They don't wait long enough to learn a few things before leaping. See, guys get these things on their brain and then can't rest until they do it. It's like an obsession! What I want you to do is calm down and put aside the thought of confronting her........for a little while anyway, okay? Jumping into something blindfolded is not a good way to get the results you want. Too many guys do that and then realize the results wasn't what he thought he'd get.

I don't want you to feel powerless, and that is why I have been trying to get you to hold back confronting her, at this time. Like I said previously, the only power you have is to have your bags packed and setting at the door when you tell her you will not stay with a cheater (or however you word it). It can't be a bluff. When you feel confident enough that you aren't doing it as some tactic, then you can confront her. But until you are serious and ready......really ready to walk out that door for good, I can't see how you are going to benefit from a confrontation. I want you to understand the possibilities, and I felt like you were jumping at this with unrealistic expectations. What I mean to say is that you don't have enough information about DBing under your belt yet. Plus, wayward wives are the most illogical people on the planet. You imagine her responding like a caring wife who had any sense would respond, right? She won't.

Pulling back on the accommodating stuff, alone, is probably not enough to bring her around. However, it is a good starting point for what you need to do in becoming a man only a fool would sacrifice for an A. If you want to save this M, then you need to make some big changes. I'm not talking about changes to appease her. I'm talking about becoming an attractive, dominant male who your W will respect and love.

I want you to get on line and do some reading on the subject of how to show male dominance in marriage. Read everything you can find about the dominant male. Okay?
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Forgot to add--I have read a lot of posts from you about how you have never seen a successful in-house separation. I agree, it's a less than ideal situation. But it's pretty discouraging to hear that and I'm not sure what to do about it.


Yes, and that's another reason I don't think you would get your desired results if you confronted your W about her A, at this time. She could always throw it up that you are separated.

I don't believe in-house separation works b/c the couple is not separated. Like you said, you are going on dates and outings, fixing her something to eat, catering to her.........so other than not sleeping together, what has changed due to the separation?

Some people believe if the couple is separated, they are free to date. Whatever your personal view......and your W's views.......it is still not like being physically separated. Were any ground rules established when this in-house separation took place? (Don't say anything to her about it, I'm just asking you).

Don't repeat anything you read to your W........unless we tell you to say something specifically.

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Weekends are always sort of a vortex sucking me in because W is home and we spend more time together.


Your W takes you for granted. You can cause mystery and draw interest if you'll follow a few things I suggest. Women are curious by nature, so expect her to drill you about your whereabouts and activity and who is with you. Don't lie to her, but be vague. Use as few words as possible to answer.

You wanted to shake her up, so why don't you start being gone when she gets home from work? Do this a few times through the week, staying out a little bit longer every time. Let her fix her own dinner. grin Then by the weekend, have something planned that will keep you out really late. After all, you are separated, aren't you? The first time you are gone when she gets home, she'll be calling, wanting to know where you are and when you intend to fix her dinner. Just tell her to go ahead and eat without you, and you'll be home in a while. cool If she wants to know what you are doing.........how will you respond? Remember, few words.

When you are home, always have something you are doing, so you don't follow her around.....and so that you aren't eager to talk with her. Do not accommodate her. That is going to be a new rule for you, I hope. The only exceptions is if she is sick, or something like that, okay? Don't try to sound like a jerk, but neither should you be too concerned about it. I can say this to you in your particular sitch, b/c you are too nice. You need to break some bad habits that you've formed in this relationship.

I'm going to start a list, and you may want to add to it. These are your No More Rules. wink

* No more being her errand boy whenever she is in another part of the house and wants you to take something to her.
* No more fixing her food whenever she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat.
* No more changing your plans when she tells you, without fair notice, she wants you to help her in the yard, or some other job that will take a considerable amount of time.
* No more hungrily waiting to talk with her when she gets home from work.
* No more over-explaining yourself.
Hi 44, I will echo what Sandi and MRay have given you for advice. I have not followed MRays thread but will look it up as it sounds very similar to mine. I have basically been in an in house separation since January. I wish I had handled the BD differently and I wish I had not confronted my WW about the A (she told me she had feelings for him earlier on but the conversations could stop). Like Sandi said WW will act like the A has nothing to do with the sitch...my W said the A has nothing to do with our Sitch and feels it's a side effect (which I think is another way they justify it to themselves).I felt the conversation didn't stop and snooped later on. I was sick and heart broke to what I found. I held it in until one day got sucked into a R convo. It was the last time for a R talk because I refuse to bring up A or any R talk now and if she does I will walk away or leave the house like I should have done then. Why confront unless you are leaving? Confronting her does not change what either one of you knows and if you don't have a plan of action for yourself, nothing will change. I am committed to being the stable logical parent for my kids and will not leave my house so it leaves me stuck and looking weak because nothing changed after I confronted her about the text (which she looked straight at me and said "I don't remember typing that"). My W told me she was going to move out at the end of April. Now that time is approaching I'm beginning to wonder if she will. If she doesn't, I can either file for D or continue this battle of standing while working to validate, GAL, and stay calm/be the light house. It is tough but once you except it and control your emotions and negative thoughts, it seems to get a bit easier. I have accepted the affair has happened and how I played a part in the MR failure leading up to the A. A piece of advice that has helped me each day is to say to myself often "stay calm" while trying to be the best father and man I can be.
Originally Posted By: MRay
Yes, I had to snoop to get the info. I couldn't ignore my instincts any longer. As part of my confrontation I wouldn't allow her to have her phone in her room for a few weeks. I spent that time reading through all their messages (I couldn't sleep, enjoyed torturing myself apparently, and wanted to confirm certain things they said). After awhile I let her take it into her room because I felt it was ridiculous. If she wanted to talk to him she could. And that would mean we were over. I made that very clear. She has never said anything about being upset or anything like that for my snooping. Whether she is or not I don't really know. And like I said, the A isn't currently on (that I know of), but I'm sure she still wants it. Her feelings for OM are still there, and she is only not acting on them because he won't for now. That's why I wish I could change the way I confronted her. I'm pretty sure she hasn't left because she doesn't know for sure that he will have her and all her baggage now that he's been confronted with it.

For full disclosure. She didn't change her phone's password until we officially decided to divorce about 3 weeks ago. She immediately changed it at this point, so I couldn't snoop now if I wanted to even though we're back in limbo. I'm sure if I asked she'd show me, but I feel that would be weak and counterproductive.


Wow! My W would NEVER agree to allow me to hold her phone hostage, much less read all her A messages. That's interesting that she never commented on your snooping or was angry about it. Seems to be a pretty normal part of the WW script usually. I understand the problem of knowing the only real reason she isn't continuing with OM is because of your intervention. Her feelings are unresolved and that could work against you. That is part of the argument in my head for the "don't confront" side. I cannot control her or the A and putting myself in the middle is probably not the best place for me to be. She needs to end it on her own if we really have any real chance for recon. Whether I can have any indirect influence on that choice, IDK. But, I don't see any way for her to truly recommit if she was still wondering how things could be with OM. Similar to the guilt issue, ideally the WW does not come back for the wrong reasons or the cycle continues. I'm sorry this is the sort of the situation you are facing now.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Well, that's what we hope to accomplish. I won't say there will never be a time for you to confront her. I'm saying the time is not now. You aren't ready.


I understand. I am very grateful to have someone like you who can objectively tell me that bluntly.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I don't know if you realize it, but that last sentence is very good.....and says volumes. Becoming that man only a fool would sacrifice for an affair is admirable. Unfortunately, there are a lot fools running around out there.......but if you come through this ordeal being a better man, then you will have gained something very valuable that a piece of paper doesn't determine. Know what I mean? In other words, a marriage license or a divorce decree does not make the man. You make the man.


I'm glad to hear this. That is my one and only true goal for this whole situation. I want to be a better man that only a fool would leave. If she turns out to be a fool, so be it. I definitely understand that a piece of paper or my relationship with her has no bearing on the man that I become. Which is a great thing because that means the one thing I do have control over--myself--is the only thing that matters for achieving my true goal.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I really believe you are thinking of tactics. Someone suggests confrontation and you can't get it out of your head until you do it. I've watched this played out over the past eleven years of reading stories on this forum. If it was executed perfectly? Yes, it would probably be your best chance. Do you know how to execute it perfectly? It very seldom goes the way the H imagines. If you don't know much about the mindset of a wayward, then you will be sorely disappointed in the outcome.


Completely clear on what you're saying here. I don't want it to be a tactic, but you can't really force it to be something else if that's still what it is deep down. I know it's a part of the process that probably every LBS faces. I think you are right, that until there is no outcome that will cause me disappointment (truly detached), I'm probably setting myself up for further pain and suffering.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Listen, women have denied it when the H would play a recording of the lovers having sex, show photos of them together, and a record of all their text messages. I can count on one hand how rare it is for a WW to admit her affair when the H confronts her.


Wow, that is very crazy. But I believe you. I would like to think "not my W", but I'm not that naive.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
This is what concerns me. You are placing too much hope in emotions. You don't even understand the makeup of a wayward W. No, she won't be shaken! She doesn't care what you think about her.

I kept trying to get you to say what you expected when you confronted her. Now I know you hoped she would feel sorry about it, and above all, would not want to lose your respect and trust in her. I wish it was that simple. In the mindset of a wayward, that's kind of like.........the side effects. If the side effects are not bigger than the high she gets from her drug of choice (which is her EA), then she won't stop the drug. See what I mean? The side effects may be uncomfortable, but she's hooked on the drug and she'll keep it until it's not worth the side effects. But remember, you are dealing with an illogical person. Therefore, you will have to get really tough (side effects), live with it, or get out of it. There are only three choices.


I see it. Objectively, it makes sense. But it's still very hard to come to terms with the fact that all that behavior is so foreign when it's your own W you're talking about. Addiction has the power though. I do want to say that I think there might be varying levels as to just how 'wayward' or addicted a WW might be. I am going to write an update when I finish my replies that touches a bit more on this. But essentially, I think there could be a distinction between a WAW who turns WW as a symptom vs. a true WW that just goes off the deep end. You might disagree and I certainly know you know a lot more than I do smile .

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
For today, I am trying to keep you from jumping off into something you don't know what you are doing. Newcomer make a big leap, then come back crying and asking what to do next. They don't wait long enough to learn a few things before leaping. See, guys get these things on their brain and then can't rest until they do it. It's like an obsession! What I want you to do is calm down and put aside the thought of confronting her........for a little while anyway, okay? Jumping into something blindfolded is not a good way to get the results you want. Too many guys do that and then realize the results wasn't what he thought he'd get.

I don't want you to feel powerless, and that is why I have been trying to get you to hold back confronting her, at this time. Like I said previously, the only power you have is to have your bags packed and setting at the door when you tell her you will not stay with a cheater (or however you word it). It can't be a bluff. When you feel confident enough that you aren't doing it as some tactic, then you can confront her. But until you are serious and ready......really ready to walk out that door for good, I can't see how you are going to benefit from a confrontation. I want you to understand the possibilities, and I felt like you were jumping at this with unrealistic expectations. What I mean to say is that you don't have enough information about DBing under your belt yet. Plus, wayward wives are the most illogical people on the planet. You imagine her responding like a caring wife who had any sense would respond, right? She won't.


I truly appreciate all of this, Sandi. I feel incredibly grateful to have found this forum and your contributions especially. I can't even imagine trying to go through this without all the support. I am not ready yet because I am not ready to walk out the door, partly just due to logistics. And I know my expectations about the results will undoubtedly not be met.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Pulling back on the accommodating stuff, alone, is probably not enough to bring her around. However, it is a good starting point for what you need to do in becoming a man only a fool would sacrifice for an A. If you want to save this M, then you need to make some big changes. I'm not talking about changes to appease her. I'm talking about becoming an attractive, dominant male who your W will respect and love.

I want you to get on line and do some reading on the subject of how to show male dominance in marriage. Read everything you can find about the dominant male. Okay?


Okay smile . I have found some great resources already and I will continue to read. I am feeling a lot more confident today that this is the best path for me, and again I will explain a bit more in my update.
Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Yes, and that's another reason I don't think you would get your desired results if you confronted your W about her A, at this time. She could always throw it up that you are separated.


Excellent point, and one that will be part of my update.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I don't believe in-house separation works b/c the couple is not separated. Like you said, you are going on dates and outings, fixing her something to eat, catering to her.........so other than not sleeping together, what has changed due to the separation?


Right. It is certainly MUCH harder to create any real separation, if not almost impossible. I could start refusing to do any of that stuff, but then the cohabitation just becomes even more miserable.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Some people believe if the couple is separated, they are free to date. Whatever your personal view......and your W's views.......it is still not like being physically separated. Were any ground rules established when this in-house separation took place? (Don't say anything to her about it, I'm just asking you).

Don't repeat anything you read to your W........unless we tell you to say something specifically.


There were not. Only 'rule' is we don't sleep in the same bed anymore. As for being free to date, personally I am not okay with that and objectively I think my W would say the same. However, I think this is obviously a very real issue for her at the moment. Like you mentioned before, I am beginning to realize that she might not even view this as an A. I really need to get to that update...where I will write more.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Your W takes you for granted. You can cause mystery and draw interest if you'll follow a few things I suggest. Women are curious by nature, so expect her to drill you about your whereabouts and activity and who is with you. Don't lie to her, but be vague. Use as few words as possible to answer.

You wanted to shake her up, so why don't you start being gone when she gets home from work? Do this a few times through the week, staying out a little bit longer every time. Let her fix her own dinner. grin Then by the weekend, have something planned that will keep you out really late. After all, you are separated, aren't you? The first time you are gone when she gets home, she'll be calling, wanting to know where you are and when you intend to fix her dinner. Just tell her to go ahead and eat without you, and you'll be home in a while. cool If she wants to know what you are doing.........how will you respond? Remember, few words.

When you are home, always have something you are doing, so you don't follow her around.....and so that you aren't eager to talk with her. Do not accommodate her. That is going to be a new rule for you, I hope. The only exceptions is if she is sick, or something like that, okay? Don't try to sound like a jerk, but neither should you be too concerned about it. I can say this to you in your particular sitch, b/c you are too nice. You need to break some bad habits that you've formed in this relationship.

I'm going to start a list, and you may want to add to it. These are your No More Rules. wink

* No more being her errand boy whenever she is in another part of the house and wants you to take something to her.
* No more fixing her food whenever she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat.
* No more changing your plans when she tells you, without fair notice, she wants you to help her in the yard, or some other job that will take a considerable amount of time.
* No more hungrily waiting to talk with her when she gets home from work.
* No more over-explaining yourself.


This is all EXCELLENT, thank you so much. I just need to jump straight into the deep-end with doing all this to the greatest extent possible and realize that this is the most productive shake-up I can do right now. I will definitely think more about that "No More" rules list and add to it later today.
Originally Posted By: Natash
Hi 44, I will echo what Sandi and MRay have given you for advice. I have not followed MRays thread but will look it up as it sounds very similar to mine. I have basically been in an in house separation since January. I wish I had handled the BD differently and I wish I had not confronted my WW about the A (she told me she had feelings for him earlier on but the conversations could stop). Like Sandi said WW will act like the A has nothing to do with the sitch...my W said the A has nothing to do with our Sitch and feels it's a side effect (which I think is another way they justify it to themselves).I felt the conversation didn't stop and snooped later on. I was sick and heart broke to what I found. I held it in until one day got sucked into a R convo. It was the last time for a R talk because I refuse to bring up A or any R talk now and if she does I will walk away or leave the house like I should have done then. Why confront unless you are leaving? Confronting her does not change what either one of you knows and if you don't have a plan of action for yourself, nothing will change. I am committed to being the stable logical parent for my kids and will not leave my house so it leaves me stuck and looking weak because nothing changed after I confronted her about the text (which she looked straight at me and said "I don't remember typing that"). My W told me she was going to move out at the end of April. Now that time is approaching I'm beginning to wonder if she will. If she doesn't, I can either file for D or continue this battle of standing while working to validate, GAL, and stay calm/be the light house. It is tough but once you except it and control your emotions and negative thoughts, it seems to get a bit easier. I have accepted the affair has happened and how I played a part in the MR failure leading up to the A. A piece of advice that has helped me each day is to say to myself often "stay calm" while trying to be the best father and man I can be.


Thank you for your input, Natash. Very sage advice and some that has helped me get to a place of peace today. Seriously, your input is gold. I am in the exact same situation where I am not in a place where I can physically leave the house and this makes the confrontation essentially meaningless. What you say about continuing your battle of GAL/validation/lighthouse is sort of my 'alternative' to confrontation, but your story really helps show that it is what will end up happening anyway.
So here is my update:

My perspective has shifted a bit, hopefully in a good way. I snooped again today, but it's not what you think. It wasn't anything to do with the A. (And don't worry I have no interest in snooping becoming a habit, but today it turned out to be a blessing). What I snooped on was the conversation my W had with one of our best friends about ending our marriage.

Predictably, my W mentioned nothing of the A. Instead she had a lot to say about how unhappy she has been and how much she has been hurting. She said a lot about how deeply she cares about me and her heart is destroyed knowing how much she has hurt me and treated me in ways I do not deserve (I assume this mostly refers to her inability to give me the affection and love I want, sex, etc). She talked about how much it hurts to end our relationship, and also the small amount of relief she felt now that it is in the open. She talked about how our communication has been open and honest and how much she respects me (this part I have to say is obviously flawed to some degree, but I believe that she believes it). She talked about how she has really tried, but thinks some people are just not meant for each other and she couldn't go on how she had been going.

Most of this was similar to what she shared with me, and while I still take it with a grain of salt, it helps to know that her story was the same when confiding in someone she deeply trusts that isn't me. In some ways, it was a lot more information than she gave when talking to me. My heart broke all over again to see her pain and suffering. The feelings of what have I done wrong, what can I do to fix it, etc all came rushing back. But the most important insight, I think, was that I truly internalized the fact that the A has nothing to do with our MR or her choice to walk away. Certainly, I do not think it is okay or acceptable. The timing is very convenient and undoubtedly it influenced her decision. But I do believe that she intended no malice. I believe that she wanted to the right thing and break-up with me before really going down that road. Since we are not high-schoolers in a dating relationship, this doesn't quite work. But, what I can see now with full clarity is a broken, hurting woman that puts everyone else in her life above herself and doesn't know how to find her own happiness. Despite all the pain and heartache I have gone through in the past few weeks, I think the deepest hurt is to see the full extent of how much she has suffered.

Words cannot fully express how much love I have for her, and I want her to find that happiness above all else. Of course, it is devastating to think that might not be possible with me. And I am not really a believer in the whole "we're not meant for each other" thing. I think it is much more scientific than that and all those replayed scripts that couples go through over and over--the loss of respect, the resentment, the hurt--just get in the way and kill that natural connection and compatibility that brought them to the altar in the first place. Certainly there are exceptions, but there is no big secret as to why everyone's story starts to sound the same.

Perhaps it is too little, too late. When I first read MWD's article on the WAS and how she describes that only in the moment where the W decides to walk away forever, does the H truly make the changes he needed to, I felt such a sinking feeling that my story would have this same tragic ending. Maybe it will; I do not know. All I can do is make those changes and become the man I want to be. If my W is past the point of being able to turn around and see that, I am okay with it. As long as she finds happiness and fulfillment, I am at peace.

But, I no longer feel the need to 'punish' her for the A or hold her feet to the fire. I know she is on her own journey and hopefully moving closer to finding what she is looking for. I do think it is inexcusable and I hope one day she acknowledges that and apologizes. But I have understanding and sympathy, and my heart is in a place of forgiveness and humility. The A has nothing to do with the problem. I don't think there is any chance her heart changes about me or our MR while she is in the midst of it, but I think I just need to focus on being the lighthouse, addressing my own flaws, and let it run its course. The cage is open and she is free. I know I will find my own happiness regardless of what happens.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
Aw man buddy really wish I could read your response! Hope they fix this issue soon...


Lets try from a computer....

You had mentioned that in your confrontation you were going to explain that her affair is "not going to be tolerated". Im trying to understand what actions you are going to do that will back that stance up.I dont see how living as roommates is showing that you "arent tolerating" her affair. Saying that you arent going to be a part of a three person marriage isnt a great way to evict the affair partner - it's about stepping out of it yourself.

Are you prepared to make that step? Not just emotionally and mentally, but physically and financially...
Wow. A lot of activity in this thread. 44 I still think that you are in a good position here without confronting. There will always be time to tackle this and come to some resolution. As I said before I do not think there is a lot of chance of this A lasting very long based on the ages involved.

If you read my sitch you will send I used a mish-mash of a couple of different anti-divorce techniques. One of course is DBing, another was one that first move was to set aside the problems in your MR and work on reconnecting. Pursuit? A bit maybe. But the beauty of that is the antithesis of MC where all you do is talk about your problems.

The theory is a sound one and I believe the combination of DBing and reconnecting helped my sitch turnaround fairly quickly. It took about 3 months for my wife to come back to the MR. Reluctantly at first, but it picked up momentum after that and by month 4 she seems fully committed back to the MR.

Some here are skeptical of that turnaround, and I am being vigilant to make sure the changes are consistent over time. But I really do believe that part of what worked for me was not constantly talking about the problems.

We also had being devoutly religious going for us in our sitch. I think her beliefs, though she temporarily turned away from them, helped bring her back. A big turning point was the faith-based marriage retreat we went on in mid-Feb.
For Sandi, I wonder if you have any input on the issue I brought up about WAS --> WW vs. straight-up WW. Do you think my W is a true WW? I don't even really know that it makes a difference, but you mentioned it is important to understand the nature of a WW's heart and I am really trying to put myself in my W's shoes and gain that insight.
Originally Posted By: Amoafwl

You had mentioned that in your confrontation you were going to explain that her affair is "not going to be tolerated". Im trying to understand what actions you are going to do that will back that stance up.I dont see how living as roommates is showing that you "arent tolerating" her affair. Saying that you arent going to be a part of a three person marriage isnt a great way to evict the affair partner - it's about stepping out of it yourself.

Are you prepared to make that step? Not just emotionally and mentally, but physically and financially...


No, and that's why I've decided not to confront, at least right now. I agree with everyone's feedback, including yours, that until I am ready to walk out the door for good, it won't be much benefit.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
Wow. A lot of activity in this thread. 44 I still think that you are in a good position here without confronting. There will always be time to tackle this and come to some resolution. As I said before I do not think there is a lot of chance of this A lasting very long based on the ages involved.

If you read my sitch you will send I used a mish-mash of a couple of different anti-divorce techniques. One of course is DBing, another was one that first move was to set aside the problems in your MR and work on reconnecting. Pursuit? A bit maybe. But the beauty of that is the antithesis of MC where all you do is talk about your problems.

The theory is a sound one and I believe the combination of DBing and reconnecting helped my sitch turnaround fairly quickly. It took about 3 months for my wife to come back to the MR. Reluctantly at first, but it picked up momentum after that and by month 4 she seems fully committed back to the MR.

Some here are skeptical of that turnaround, and I am being vigilant to make sure the changes are consistent over time. But I really do believe that part of what worked for me was not constantly talking about the problems.

We also had being devoutly religious going for us in our sitch. I think her beliefs, though she temporarily turned away from them, helped bring her back. A big turning point was the faith-based marriage retreat we went on in mid-Feb.


Steve, I really appreciate your VP. I feel like I'm saying that to everyone, but please know it is very genuine. All of you giving me advice are coming from different experiences and have different attitudes and opinions, which is great. I am a problem-solver by nature, so I can really see the appeal to your mishmash approach. There is rarely one right answer to complex issues--of which this certainly qualifies--and as awesome as DBing is, I am careful at times not to get too pigeon-holed and start following the laws like a cult member (all in jest). The biggest challenge for me is that DBing is mostly counter-intuitive so a lot of times it feels like 'brainwashing' is necessary or I will screw up.

But I also know it can't always be foolproof. For example, Sandi has a very stalwart view on the heart and mind of a WW. I think she is very wise and majority of the time, surely right. I value her opinion very highly. However, MRay accounts how his W came clean immediately when confronted about her A and seems to know she is in the wrong. Doesn't mean she doesn't still have feelings or want to be with OM or want to recommit to MRay. But it does sort of deviate from the "WW model".

Continuing with that example, I have a very hard time accepting the fact that my W will not give a hoot what I think of her if I tell her how disgusted and disappointed I am in what she's done. High self-esteem is not her strong suit and she cares a lot about what everyone thinks of her, including me. She may have lost respect for me as a H, but I don't think she has lost respect for me as an intelligent, up-standing, moral man. Again, it doesn't mean she will end her A, show remorse, etc but feel some amount of shame? I would say yes. But I KNOW I have a blindfold on. I am not trusting any of my instincts. It does make me feel vulnerable to walking into a wall.

That was a bit tangential, but the point is sometimes it feels like I've stepped into another dimension where I must view my W as a stone-cold, heartless stranger that is nothing like who she was a month ago. If she was hurting so much, if she felt unloved, if I didn't cherish her and the connection was lost, where is the logic that says I must show only detachment and non-pursuit? I've come to accept that this is temporary and beneficial to gain back her attraction. But one size does not fit all and I completely believe you when you say you have had success mixing alternative theories that may allow for a bit of pursuit. The hard part is I am a clueless newborn to this world and I don't really feel I have the skill to apply such nuance to my situation. So I am following the hardline DB approach somewhat blindly and trying to learn as much as I can. I just hope by the time I am a functional craftsman at this trade, I won't have already messed up.

Hopefully that long-winded merry-go-round made sense and is in line with what you were trying to say. I will go through and read your threads. I think I have read some, but I find everything on these boards that I re-read, I learn something new. Thanks again for your encouragement and please know how much your input helps.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
The biggest challenge for me is that DBing is mostly counter-intuitive so a lot of times it feels like 'brainwashing' is necessary or I will screw up.


DB'ing is more about an attitude shift in you rather than her. It does feel awkward at first, but eventually you'll get the hang of it. As far as screwing it up, we all make mistakes now and then. The intent is to keep moving forward. Two steps forward and one back is still forward momentum. So if you make a mistake don't sweat it.

Quote:
Continuing with that example, I have a very hard time accepting the fact that my W will not give a hoot what I think of her if I tell her how disgusted and disappointed I am in what she's done.


My ex sat in MC and when the counselor asked is she loved me she said "yes", if she respected me she said "absolutely", if she enjoyed the sex she said "definitely". The counselor looked perplexed and said "I don't understand the problem then, what exactly is wrong?" And the ex said "I just don't want to be married anymore." The fact you have to accept is that right now, she is done. Nothing you say or do is going to change that. Time and space MIGHT change it (but it might not). All you can do is work on yourself and give her time to appreciate the "new you".

Quote:
That was a bit tangential, but the point is sometimes it feels like I've stepped into another dimension where I must view my W as a stone-cold, heartless stranger that is nothing like who she was a month ago.


Not sure how you got that impression. DB and DR and Sandi's rules all emphasize LOVING detachment. The message here is consistent that your W is confused and in turmoil right now, and that this is as much about her and the soul-searching she needs to do as it is about you.

Quote:
If she was hurting so much, if she felt unloved, if I didn't cherish her and the connection was lost, where is the logic that says I must show only detachment and non-pursuit?


The logic is that the harder you pursue, the more repulsed she is and the more it drives her away. You've got to stop that dynamic by quitting the pursuit and backing off. WAS's hate pressure so your job is to remove all pressure. Pursuing her does not make her feel cherished, because pursuit is what YOU want, not her. She wants to be left alone. So when you pursue you are basically saying "I don't care what you want, this is all about me me me."
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

DB'ing is more about an attitude shift in you rather than her. It does feel awkward at first, but eventually you'll get the hang of it. As far as screwing it up, we all make mistakes now and then. The intent is to keep moving forward. Two steps forward and one back is still forward momentum. So if you make a mistake don't sweat it.


Thanks, I need to remember this as I can be a bit of a perfectionist and become obsessed with doing things right the first time..

Quote:

My ex sat in MC and when the counselor asked is she loved me she said "yes", if she respected me she said "absolutely", if she enjoyed the sex she said "definitely". The counselor looked perplexed and said "I don't understand the problem then, what exactly is wrong?" And the ex said "I just don't want to be married anymore." The fact you have to accept is that right now, she is done. Nothing you say or do is going to change that. Time and space MIGHT change it (but it might not). All you can do is work on yourself and give her time to appreciate the "new you".


That story really drives that point home, thank you.

Quote:

Not sure how you got that impression. DB and DR and Sandi's rules all emphasize LOVING detachment. The message here is consistent that your W is confused and in turmoil right now, and that this is as much about her and the soul-searching she needs to do as it is about you.


Maybe you misread my quote, or I'm misunderstanding something. I'm not saying I need to be stone-cold and heartless. I know I need to detach with love. I'm talking about how I feel all of the descriptions of WWs depict them as "not the girl you married", "in complete rebellion", "no capacity for logic",etc, which is a very stark difference probably from your "normal" wife that was seemingly there before BD.

Quote:
The logic is that the harder you pursue, the more repulsed she is and the more it drives her away. You've got to stop that dynamic by quitting the pursuit and backing off. WAS's hate pressure so your job is to remove all pressure. Pursuing her does not make her feel cherished, because pursuit is what YOU want, not her. She wants to be left alone. So when you pursue you are basically saying "I don't care what you want, this is all about me me me."


Right. This IS the logic that counters the original, intuitive logic. And it's why I believe in DBing and am willing to sort of 'blindly' follow it while I really learn the ropes.
Couple more questions/thoughts...sorry guys I'm really on a posting kick today as my mind has been turning.

I have been strict about any pursuit. For all my failures in accommodation and being too available, I do not break any of the rules of active pursuit on my part. I do not call or text,period, don't ask any questions of any kind, keep my answers short and simple, basically at minimum fake it til I make it on total detachment. It's becoming easy. My question is: W has been working late the past few nights. Would turning the porch light on for her before I go to bed be considered pursuit?

I have been thinking a bit after reading so much on the WW and posts by Sandi; there is a lot of mention about unmet needs of the W sort of catalysing the development of waywardness and building over time. I'm trying to think more about what these unmet needs actually are. Obviously, as a Nice Guy, my thoughts on meeting needs are flawed and I realize this. So, I'm going to give an example of a scenario where I felt I was "meeting a need". But I'm wondering now if perhaps I was actually engaging in accommodating "Nice Guy" behavior and had the opposite effect.

After we had moved in together, a small issue that arose pretty quickly was that I would get a lot of water on the sink in the mornings/evenings when I washed my face. I thought, eh, it's just water, it will be dry by the time I use the sink again. Well, my W hated it. Made comments and complaints almost everyday about how I left water all over the sink. Similarly, I hated the fact that she left the lid off the toothpaste every, single time she used it. I wasn't quite as overt as she was about the water, but I would lightheartedly mention she never puts the cap back or give her a friendly reminder to please to try and remember. She clearly knew it was something that bothered me.

It didn't take long before I listened to her complaints about the water. I got a designated towel and put up a hook for it, so I could have a system in place to easily wipe up the water. To this day, I cannot wash my face without cleaning the sink afterward because I knew it was something she cared about and wanted to make sure I listened and she knew I cared that she cared. In my mind, I'm thinking this is one small thing of many that I'm doing to be a great H. Meanwhile, I've never seen her make any effort to cap the toothpaste. Sometimes I see it sitting there uncapped while I'm cleaning the water and it makes my blood boil a bit. Where did my thinking go wrong here? Was I too accommodating by cleaning up the water when she wasn't willing to reciprocate? Was it a covert contract?

Not trying to turn this into a "what do women want" question. I'm just trying to identify the parts of NGS I need to get rid of and eliminate my wrong ideas about what being a "good H" means.
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For Sandi, I wonder if you have any input on the issue I brought up about WAS --> WW vs. straight-up WW. Do you think my W is a true WW? I don't even really know that it makes a difference, but you mentioned it is important to understand the nature of a WW's heart and I am really trying to put myself in my W's shoes and gain that insight.


tired That ^^^^^^^^ was my main purpose of writing the WW threads. I thought you said you had read them, but maybe I was mistaken. If you did, you obviously missed the reason behind the threads. I believe a WAW is a W who doesn't necessarily desire to end her M, but her H has put her in such a position that she feels she must get away from him for her own safety and for the welfare of her children. He may be abusive, or doing something illegally, or an addict, imprisoned, or something along those lines. In other words, he really is the bad guy in WAW sitches. In all of the WW sitches I have known IRL and on this board, the WW is the bad guy......and the H often has NGS, but it's not necessary or a defining factor that makes the W wayward.

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I think there might be varying levels as to just how 'wayward' or addicted a WW might be. I am going to write an update when I finish my replies that touches a bit more on this. But essentially, I think there could be a distinction between a WAW who turns WW as a symptom vs. a true WW that just goes off the deep end.


Well, of course, every situation differs in degrees of waywardness. Compared to a lot of WW's I've read about on the board, I was pretty tame! But here's the thing, 44, you can't have it both ways......and I think that's what you're trying to do here.

You are welcome to join the ranks of H's who think their 20 something W is having a MLC instead of being wayward. smirk Would that make you feel better? Cause let me be very blunt here.........you don't have a clue! You are trying to find a loophole for yourself. You read this....then you read that.....then something else......and your mind changes with everything you read.

Last night I was trying to hold you back from jumping off the ledge blindfolded, and today you decide she is somewhere between WAW and WW. Years ago I would refer to WAW's who were in an A and those who weren't........trying to make a distinction, but it wasn't enough. The two mindsets are completely different.

So, since you asked.........that's my input about it. I think you just need to stop trying to label and analyze and coming up with some theory........and just calm down and read the information.

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For example, Sandi has a very stalwart view on the heart and mind of a WW. I think she is very wise and majority of the time, surely right. I value her opinion very highly. However, MRay accounts how his W came clean immediately when confronted about her A and seems to know she is in the wrong.


Thanks for your kind words (I think). FWIW, his W was one of those I said I could count on one hand who admitted it. He says they are headed for D, so what is it you wish to gain from confrontation? Do you want to hear her admit it and tell you she wants a D? Is that how you see as a successful confrontation?

I'm not going to keep wrestling you over this confrontation thing. Not tonight.
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Continuing with that example, I have a very hard time accepting the fact that my W will not give a hoot what I think of her if I tell her how disgusted and disappointed I am in what she's done. High self-esteem is not her strong suit and she cares a lot about what everyone thinks of her, including me. She may have lost respect for me as a H, but I don't think she has lost respect for me as an intelligent, up-standing, moral man.


I thought the same way at one point until I realized my wife is not the W I married (I had read it and believed it but don't think I had fully accepted it yet).The WW's are done with us LBHs...I'm the enemy and she doesn't care. She lost her best friend over a legal issue last year and a very close/close to best friend was less than impressed when the W bragged about texting OM to her. It wasn't long after that my W unfriended her on Facebook and now won't talk with her. My W highly respected me as well and definitely cared about what people thought of her too.Think about it... if they are lying, cheating, and being deceitful, they are not concerned about the their own Morales let alone their enemies. I think it comes down to the WW mindset is definitely different than before.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

tired That ^^^^^^^^ was my main purpose of writing the WW threads. I thought you said you had read them, but maybe I was mistaken. If you did, you obviously missed the reason behind the threads. I believe a WAW is a W who doesn't necessarily desire to end her M, but her H has put her in such a position that she feels she must get away from him for her own safety and for the welfare of her children. He may be abusive, or doing something illegally, or an addict, imprisoned, or something along those lines. In other words, he really is the bad guy in WAW sitches. In all of the WW sitches I have known IRL and on this board, the WW is the bad guy......and the H often has NGS, but it's not necessary or a defining factor that makes the W wayward.


My apologies, now that you highlight this main distinction, I remember you saying this several times. Shows how much I need to step back from reading and reading and process for a bit! I got caught up in trying to understand the difference in WW vs WAS hearts and completely overlooked the obvious--WAS is pushed away by a bad H, whereas WW is the bad guy and H often has NGS. Very different dynamic and very clear distinction. My W is most definitely WW.

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Well, of course, every situation differs in degrees of waywardness. Compared to a lot of WW's I've read about on the board, I was pretty tame! But here's the thing, 44, you can't have it both ways......and I think that's what you're trying to do here.

You are welcome to join the ranks of H's who think their 20 something W is having a MLC instead of being wayward. smirk Would that make you feel better? Cause let me be very blunt here.........you don't have a clue! You are trying to find a loophole for yourself. You read this....then you read that.....then something else......and your mind changes with everything you read.


To be clear, I do not think my W is having a MLC. And I am very clear on why this would be much worse. I have no problem accepting my W is WW, I think I just dug in too deep in trying to understand what exactly that meant about her heart. I think it's important to be aware of the general state of the WW heart, but probably doesn't matter nearly as much as I thought it did trying to break down the degree of waywardness and if all the check boxes apply. As you pointed out, it can quickly become a game of trying to warp the situation in your favor rather than gain actual insight. I'll stop thinking about it and just assume she as wayward as they come.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Last night I was trying to hold you back from jumping off the ledge blindfolded, and today you decide she is somewhere between WAW and WW. Years ago I would refer to WAW's who were in an A and those who weren't........trying to make a distinction, but it wasn't enough. The two mindsets are completely different.

So, since you asked.........that's my input about it. I think you just need to stop trying to label and analyze and coming up with some theory........and just calm down and read the information.


Thank you for being patient with me and explaining this. You are right, the labels are not that important and started to get in the way of me actually learning the information.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Thanks for your kind words (I think). FWIW, his W was one of those I said I could count on one hand who admitted it. He says they are headed for D, so what is it you wish to gain from confrontation? Do you want to hear her admit it and tell you she wants a D? Is that how you see as a successful confrontation?

I'm not going to keep wrestling you over this confrontation thing. Not tonight.


Please know the words were indeed intended kindly and with much respect. My response there was to Steve and I was just trying to acknowledge that I was maintaining an open mind and understand that one exact approach does not fit all situations, which was what I interpreted he was trying to tell me. The examples I gave were simply an illustration of an outlier--but I understand that is exactly what they were, an outlier, and therefore unlikely just as you said. I was only acknowledging they exist.

Perhaps I failed to make it clear that I was just sharing some of my "instinct" feelings that go against what DB teaches since it is counterintuitive. I was not actually putting stock into them. I made my decision not to have a confrontation, much thanks to you, and am fully behind all the reasons why.
Originally Posted By: Natash

I thought the same way at one point until I realized my wife is not the W I married (I had read it and believed it but don't think I had fully accepted it yet).The WW's are done with us LBHs...I'm the enemy and she doesn't care. She lost her best friend over a legal issue last year and a very close/close to best friend was less than impressed when the W bragged about texting OM to her. It wasn't long after that my W unfriended her on Facebook and now won't talk with her. My W highly respected me as well and definitely cared about what people thought of her too.Think about it... if they are lying, cheating, and being deceitful, they are not concerned about the their own Morales let alone their enemies. I think it comes down to the WW mindset is definitely different than before.


Thank you, Natash. You are completely right and I know my W is likely right there with yours. As I said to Sandi, I think I failed to make it clear that I was just venting and sharing my instincts that I knew were wrong, rather than trying to argue. That is why I said "I KNOW I have a blindfold on". I sort of regret writing that post at all now, but the main purpose was just putting to paper all of the intuitive feelings that come into my head and get in the way of coming to terms with the truth. I think I gave the impression that I had backslid to actually thinking they were true.
So how did you do yesterday with your "No More" rules? smile
So glad you asked, Sandi smile . I will include them in my update today:

I have joined a workout club that hosts outdoor classes in various parks around the city closest to me. Today was the first class I attended and I loved it! Can't believe I didn't find it before. Between this club, the gym, and my language exchange group, I am ensuring I get out of the house everyday. The only thing that is kind of a bummer is the city is a 40 min drive. But, I think it's worth it. It is sort of amazing how every time I do a new GAL event, and really push myself to get out there and try new things/meet new people, I leave with a tangible increase in the "I'm going to be just fine without my W" feeling.

I am also doing a final interview tomorrow for a contract job teaching English, so if all goes well I will start that by next week. And I just submitted a scholarship application for an intensive summer program related to my master's that I hope might help put me in a position to get a related job sooner than planned. My current classes are wrapping up with finals this week and my mom and brother just booked tickets to come visit in a couple months. Also planning a surf trip with my sister this summer. So, that's my GAL update for the moment, really trying to be aggressive about it and keep ramping up.

As for how my W is responding to the GAL...I'm trying not to over-analyze or really worry about it, but I'm finding it hard to stick to the rules about giving few details and basically being mysterious because my W is so nosy! Sandi, her response to coming home from work today and me not being there was exactly as you predicted. I had 3 missed calls and multiple messages on different platforms. I responded when we got a water break and just said "at workout group, ends at 8" (she asked where was I, when would I be home, etc). My whole way home she is messaging "almost here?". Now, when I got there I almost laughed. It was like that classic movie scene where the wife is sitting in the dark and turns the light on when her H walks in. She was sitting in the dark office with her feet on the desk literally waiting for me to arrive. I acted like I thought it was weird she was waiting (didn't have to act) and she starts asking me all about what I was doing, how it was, and then goes into how she has been sitting there stewing because she can't believe I hadn't let her know my plans. Now to be clear, she wasn't mad; it was pretty lighthearted and she knew she was being ridiculous. But she was still serious. She asked me to please let her know if I am going to be gone and what days my workout groups are going to be, etc. Is this her trying to exert power or what? And should I agree or tell her I don't have to let her know? I am glad to see the "curiosity" and "interest" that MWD says to watch for, but it feels very...excessive.

After that intense ordeal, she followed me around moaning about how she was in pain and wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't, blah blah. I don't know how or why she ever got into the habit of doing that, but it is not attractive to say the least. She whines and whines expecting me to jump in and do something for her (I assume the habit came because I usually did). Anyway, eventually we go to our separate rooms but somehow she ends up in my room climbing into the bed next to me so we can online shop together. Then she wants to know if I'm making dinner and what I will eat. You can see where this is going...So then I'm heating up her food and she's asking to share a drink, and I'm wondering how I got sucked into the vortex again. It's very hard for me to figure out where to draw the line between letting her initiate conversations and "hanging out" and me ending up doing things for her. It only makes it worse that I feel some sort of obligation when she is tired from work or says she sick, and I just got back from some fun workout class. So, that brings me to my updated list of No More Rules:

* No more being her errand boy whenever she is in another part of the house and wants you to take something to her.
* No more fixing her food whenever she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat.
* No more changing your plans when she tells you, without fair notice, she wants you to help her in the yard, or some other job that will take a considerable amount of time.
* No more hungrily waiting to talk with her when she gets home from work.
* No more over-explaining yourself.
* No more letting her whine and passive-aggressively ask me for things. If she really needs something, it needs to be a direct, reasonable request.
* No more sitting down in her room; if she calls me in there, I remain standing and leave as soon as she says what she has to say. (I don't break this one often, but when I do I always regret it)

I will continue to add as issues arise. I really like this idea smile .
Oops, I misread your question Sandi. I thought you were asking if I had thought of any new rules. As for the ones already in place, the only one I may have broken was the fixing her food one. But instead of the passive-aggressive comments this time she basically asked if I was making food for myself, what it was, and if I could get her some too. It feels impossible to say no to that without being a jerk. What do you think? If she asks for food directly, should I say yes or tell her...get it yourself?
I wrote a post long enough to break the Internet.....and wasn't watching the battery power on my IPad.....and lost the whoooooole thing. cry I'll have to muster up the energy to make another stab, but it will have to be tomorrow. I thought you did better, but you still feel you have to accommodate her.....and give her a precise answer when she's drilling you.

I wish you would have told her, "I think you must be confused. You are the one in the military, not me. You are not my commanding officer.....nor, my mother". Then turn and walked away from her. I could think of so many comebacks! But, I'll post tomorrow. smile
O noooo! Very sorry to hear that, Sandi.

I know what you are saying. I still have lingering fear of "rocking the boat". It feels good that she isn't pulling away and is friendly and engaged, but it makes me more scared than I should be to "push her away". Not so much that I can't follow the rules, but enough that at times I try to fight and bend them.


I have read DR a few times now, and routinely recenter by flipping through chapters 5 and 10 (the techniques including LRT and the infidelity section, aka the parts that really apply to me right now). It often seems that MWD is writing about a S that is totally withdrawn, can't stand to be in the same room, etc. A lot of the "positive signs" are things that I already see regularly. I don't know if we skipped the initial stage of total closed-ness because I immediately applied LRT and never argued or begged, or if it just somehow isn't applicable to my sitch.

Similarly, MWD talks about a "holding pattern" being okay. Once you see the positive signs and shown interest, you just try to keep it up and hope it progresses slowly but shouldn't be discouraged by stagnancy. I don't know if that is still true for me due to 1. the A and 2. the fact that my W's main problem is that she has no attraction to me. It doesn't really feel like her friendliness or even her "pursuit" (for lack of a better word) is necessarily something that is slowly moving down the right road. Rather, it feels like I am friend-zoned and on some impossible mission to make her feel as giddy and attracted to me as she was when we first met. My hope is that by employing LRT and following Sandi's advice on NGS, accommodation, and male dominance I can regain attraction while simultaneously building on the "friendship". Oh, and of course the OM spontaneously disappearing from the earth would probably help too. I just hope I'm on the right track, and neither taking positive signs for granted nor letting them get my hopes up. MWD emphasizes being clear on your goals and what to look for, and I think I need some help in that area.

I know that was all focused on the W and MR; don't be fooled, I know myself and GAL are even more important, but I feel much more clear about my direction in that area.

Looking forward to your post, Sandi. Thanks again for all the time you take writing to me.
44, I think you are looking at this with too much of a micro focus. Today. No matter where you are today, doesn't mean you will be in the same place in 6 months. A year. 2 years.

In sitch I was much in the same boat as you. Wife told me a couple of weeks in that thinking about intimacy with me was like having it with "so-and-so" where so-and-so was an unattractive guy we new peripherally. It hurt. But guess what, a few weeks later she couldn't get enough of sex with me. (Not that it directly equates with intimacy, but it was more intimate than she was willing two weeks in.)

So stop focusing on where you are at now and think about what you are doing that will pay dividends in the future. Again, if R is your goal. Again, read ItHurts thread. He and his wife were D'd and not in contact for 4 years. That isn't even the friend zone! And now she is pursuing him again. This all will happen on its own timeline, not on yours.
Okay, I'm going to try this again, and maybe I'll be more watchful of my battery power.

Good job at GAL and not being home when your W got off work.

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As for how my W is responding to the GAL...I'm trying not to over-analyze or really worry about it, but I'm finding it hard to stick to the rules about giving few details and basically being mysterious because my W is so nosy! Sandi, her response to coming home from work today and me not being there was exactly as you predicted. I had 3 missed calls and multiple messages on different platforms. I responded when we got a water break and just said "at workout group, ends at 8" (she asked where was I, when would I be home, etc). My whole way home she is messaging "almost here"?


You are conditioned to give her the precise answer to her questions. It will be an effort for you to be mindful about giving vague responses. She totally over killed with her constant calls. In this case, you could laugh at her. Seriously, start laughing in her face, instead of behind her back. But now listen........laughing at her and turning around and doing what she orders is not cool. Laugh at her and don't do what she is demanding.

WW: "Where are you"?
You: "Just out and about".
WW: "You weren't here when I got home, and you didn't tell me you were going out"!
You: (chuckle) "Why did we have a date"? "Besides, I figured you would need your
hour".
WW: "It's been more than an hour, and I don't have any dinner"!
You: "Oh, go ahead and fix something for yourself. Don't wait for me".
WW: "Tell me what time will you be home".
You: "Hummm........not sure".
WW: "Well I need to know! What are you doing"?
You: (chuckles and ignores her second question) "Why, do you have a surprise"?
WW: "Are you drunk"?!
You: "Not yet".
WW: "Are you with somebody"?
You: (chuckle) "Not yet".
WW: "(really getting angry). "You had better tell me what you are doing and you had
better be on your way home, if you know what's good for you mister"!
You: (laugh). "Don't wait up. I have to go now". (disconnects the call and turns off the
the phone).

I gave more last night, but I'm trying to keep this post shorter. Oh, BTW, when she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat......just reply with, "Well, if you don't know, I'm sure I don't".

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Now, when I got there I almost laughed. It was like that classic movie scene where the wife is sitting in the dark and turns the light on when her H walks in. She was sitting in the dark office with her feet on the desk literally waiting for me to arrive. I acted like I thought it was weird she was waiting (didn't have to act) and she starts asking me all about what I was doing, how it was, and then goes into how she has been sitting there stewing because she can't believe I hadn't let her know my plans. Now to be clear, she wasn't mad; it was pretty lighthearted and she knew she was being ridiculous. But she was still serious. She asked me to please let her know if I am going to be gone and what days my workout groups are going to be, etc. Is this her trying to exert power or what


Don't be afraid to laugh in her face and walk away from her. When you reach the point you can laugh at her and not worry about her reaction.......you will be growing b@lls. Will she be angry? She'll probably be furious, b/c you are putting her in her place.....and she'll struggle to get power. She'll say things like, "I'm still your W and I have a right to know your plans and when you will be home". Look at her and say............"Wait, I'm a little confused here. Is this the part we act like a married couple......when you are drilling me about my personal life"? "If so, maybe you should tell me the part we act like a separated couple.....other than when it's bedtime".

She will get really angry, but that's fine. It means she is struggling to get power. If she starts demanding or ordering you, tell her, "I think you are confused. You are the one in the military, not me. You are not my commanding officer.". Then walk away. If she follows, just keep your cool, and laugh when she is rediclous. She can get glad in the same rags she got mad.

She is making up the rules to this game as she goes.......and you are going to change the entire game plan.

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She asked me to please let her know if I am going to be gone and what days my workout groups are going to be, etc. Is this her trying to exert power or what? And should I agree or tell her I don't have to let her know? I am glad to see the "curiosity" and "interest" that MWD says to watch for, but it feels very...excessive.


You: (chuckle) "Hummmm.......no".
WW: "What?! You won't even have the decency to let your W know when you aren't going to be home"?
You: (laugh again). "No"!
WW: "Then I won't tell you anything about my plans"!
You: "Okey-dokey".

This entire time, you are busy doing something, getting ready for bed, fixing yourself something to eat, or whatever. You are not influenced by her anger or tears or pity party.....whatever trick she pulls out of her bag. But be prepared for something like this............

WW: (she may put on a sad face or mad face, expect either) "Well, I had been thinking we could resolve things and the reason I got upset that you weren't here is b/c I was anxious to talk to you about us sleeping together again. But now, I know you really don't love me, and will let me worry something has happened to you before you'd tell me anything.............yada, yada, yada. Now I know this M will never work, so I might as well file for a divorce. I'm not going to stay with a man who won't cooperate, is hateful and mistreats me..... and keeps secrets from his W"!

You: "If that's what you think you need to do, I won't stand in your way".

WW: "So, you want a divorce"!

You: "Oh, is this about what I want? That's rich". (chuckle)

However, you do not engage in a R talk. Tell her you aren't in the mood, or act disinterested and don't respond. Start watch TV, or go for a walk, or go to the bedroom and close the door.

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After that intense ordeal, she followed me around moaning about how she was in pain and wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't, blah blah. I don't know how or why she ever got into the habit of doing that, but it is not attractive to say the least.


You know this her manipulating you to do her work, right? If gives her a sense of control and power over you. She was testing you to see if she was back at the wheel of this vehicle.

You: "I think I need to tell you something".
WW: "Okay.....what it is"?
You: "You are really unattractive when you moan & groan about how bad you feel and how you wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't". "It's actually a turn-off".

She may go off on you, or start bawling. Don't respond, juscow all away, or go into your room and close the door in her face. Don't apologize, no matter what she says or does! This is you calling her out on this type of crap. Whatever you do, don't do any of those chores! If you do, then her manipulation worked. You are going to stop being a nice-guy that she can work.

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Anyway, eventually we go to our separate rooms but somehow she ends up in my room climbing into the bed next to me so we can online shop together. Then she wants to know if I'm making dinner and what I will eat. You can see where this is going...So then I'm heating up her food and she's asking to share a drink, and I'm wondering how I got sucked into the vortex again.


What a wuss! smile. Yeah, she works you real good. Butters you up like a turkey......,and you fall for the accommodation every time. But this is going to stop, right?

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It's very hard for me to figure out where to draw the line between letting her initiate conversations and "hanging out" and me ending up doing things for her.


Laugh in her face. Say, "Oh I see how this is played". (laugh) "No, I'm not fixing you something to eat". "Put your big girl panties on and go fix yourself something to eat". (Then pop her on her butt, as if you are playing). Stick to your word, but keep it light, unless she turns really ugly.

She can initiate conversation and hang out with you........as long as she is not doing it to manipulate you into doing something for her. See, it's as if she's playing trade out. She's sort of nice for a few minutes, then asks you what you are going to eat and if you'll fix some for her. That is rotten manipulation!

Do you see how things changed when you were out? You come home and she's the one following you and initiating conversations, when it's usually the other way around. I'd say that's a good 180, right there! whistle

Work on becoming unconditioned to giving her quick, precise answers when she is being nosy. You do not share your agenda with her........okay? When she decides to end contact with OM, and stops keeping her own secrets, and starts sleeping with you like M couples should.......in other words, starts showing you respect and admiration.......then you can begin giving more precise answers to her questions about your agenda.

I don't think you will ever be able to be as accommodating again, b/c she is a "user". She has a sense of entitlement. You have made it much, much worse by catering to her, and hanging on to every word, and by showing how hungry you are to talk. You have to break that entitlement and make sure it never returns. Otherwise, she'll never be attracted to you. I'm not saying that after reconciling you can never do a few things for her........if she returns the favors. I just think the over accommodating killed her attraction for you, and now she feels entitled and expects you to cater to her. That's not how a MR should work.

I like your additions to the "No More" rules. You are going to make big changes, and you are going to love it.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

You are conditioned to give her the precise answer to her questions. It will be an effort for you to be mindful about giving vague responses. She totally over killed with her constant calls. In this case, you could laugh at her. Seriously, start laughing in her face, instead of behind her back. But now listen........laughing at her and turning around and doing what she orders is not cool. Laugh at her and don't do what she is demanding.

WW: "Where are you"?
You: "Just out and about".
WW: "You weren't here when I got home, and you didn't tell me you were going out"!
You: (chuckle) "Why did we have a date"? "Besides, I figured you would need your
hour".
WW: "It's been more than an hour, and I don't have any dinner"!
You: "Oh, go ahead and fix something for yourself. Don't wait for me".
WW: "Tell me what time will you be home".
You: "Hummm........not sure".
WW: "Well I need to know! What are you doing"?
You: (chuckles and ignores her second question) "Why, do you have a surprise"?
WW: "Are you drunk"?!
You: "Not yet".
WW: "Are you with somebody"?
You: (chuckle) "Not yet".
WW: "(really getting angry). "You had better tell me what you are doing and you had
better be on your way home, if you know what's good for you mister"!
You: (laugh). "Don't wait up. I have to go now". (disconnects the call and turns off the
the phone).

I gave more last night, but I'm trying to keep this post shorter. Oh, BTW, when she says she doesn't know what she wants to eat......just reply with, "Well, if you don't know, I'm sure I don't".


Oo boy, Sandi. I'm glad I'm a guy that's not afraid of a challenge. I can't even imagine having a conversation like that with my W, but I am going to try! Thank you for including such specific examples, it really helps.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Don't be afraid to laugh in her face and walk away from her. When you reach the point you can laugh at her and not worry about her reaction.......you will be growing b@lls. Will she be angry? She'll probably be furious, b/c you are putting her in her place.....and she'll struggle to get power. She'll say things like, "I'm still your W and I have a right to know your plans and when you will be home". Look at her and say............"Wait, I'm a little confused here. Is this the part we act like a married couple......when you are drilling me about my personal life"? "If so, maybe you should tell me the part we act like a separated couple.....other than when it's bedtime".

She will get really angry, but that's fine. It means she is struggling to get power. If she starts demanding or ordering you, tell her, "I think you are confused. You are the one in the military, not me. You are not my commanding officer.". Then walk away. If she follows, just keep your cool, and laugh when she is rediclous. She can get glad in the same rags she got mad.

She is making up the rules to this game as she goes.......and you are going to change the entire game plan.


Okay, I am going to trust you that her getting mad is not a bad thing. You've made it very clear here that that is what I should expect and it means I'm doing it right.

Quote:

But be prepared for something like this............

WW: (she may put on a sad face or mad face, expect either) "Well, I had been thinking we could resolve things and the reason I got upset that you weren't here is b/c I was anxious to talk to you about us sleeping together again. But now, I know you really don't love me, and will let me worry something has happened to you before you'd tell me anything.............yada, yada, yada. Now I know this M will never work, so I might as well file for a divorce. I'm not going to stay with a man who won't cooperate, is hateful and mistreats me..... and keeps secrets from his W"!

You: "If that's what you think you need to do, I won't stand in your way".

WW: "So, you want a divorce"!

You: "Oh, is this about what I want? That's rich". (chuckle)

However, you do not engage in a R talk. Tell her you aren't in the mood, or act disinterested and don't respond. Start watch TV, or go for a walk, or go to the bedroom and close the door.


Wow. I will admit this is going to be really tough. It might take me a few trial runs, but I think I can get there soon. I know I can do it now that I know not to totally panic at this response.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
You know this her manipulating you to do her work, right? If gives her a sense of control and power over you. She was testing you to see if she was back at the wheel of this vehicle.


This is what I figured.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
You: "I think I need to tell you something".
WW: "Okay.....what it is"?
You: "You are really unattractive when you moan & groan about how bad you feel and how you wanted to do all these chores but just couldn't". "It's actually a turn-off".

She may go off on you, or start bawling. Don't respond, juscow all away, or go into your room and close the door in her face. Don't apologize, no matter what she says or does! This is you calling her out on this type of crap. Whatever you do, don't do any of those chores! If you do, then her manipulation worked. You are going to stop being a nice-guy that she can work.


I did not give in and help her with any of the chores yesterday, so I think I can do this smile Next time she whines I will call her out. I have already started calling her out on her passive-aggressiveness. Now she makes jokes to me about it.

Quote:

What a wuss! smile. Yeah, she works you real good. Butters you up like a turkey......,and you fall for the accommodation every time. But this is going to stop, right?


Yes smile

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
She can initiate conversation and hang out with you........as long as she is not doing it to manipulate you into doing something for her. See, it's as if she's playing trade out. She's sort of nice for a few minutes, then asks you what you are going to eat and if you'll fix some for her. That is rotten manipulation!


Understood.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Do you see how things changed when you were out? You come home and she's the one following you and initiating conversations, when it's usually the other way around. I'd say that's a good 180, right there! whistle


Yes! It's amazing. To be honest, I'm feeling very positive. Which is good and all, but I'm really trying to make sure I tell myself to turn that wayyyyy down and know the road is looong. It's going to sound very strange, but in some ways the A is a blessing because without that I would probably be totally blinded.

Anyway, yes, it's producing great results and that really motivates me to keep going and have the confidence that you are right and I shouldn't be afraid if I make her mad or "rock the boat" on our good terms.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Work on becoming unconditioned to giving her quick, precise answers when she is being nosy. You do not share your agenda with her........okay? When she decides to end contact with OM, and stops keeping her own secrets, and starts sleeping with you like M couples should.......in other words, starts showing you respect and admiration.......then you can begin giving more precise answers to her questions about your agenda.


This makes complete sense. What if she thinks I'm playing games? My first thought if I actually imagine becoming all intentionally vague and evasive is that she is going to think I'm doing some manipulative tactic. If that doesn't matter, then I won't worry about it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I don't think you will ever be able to be as accommodating again, b/c she is a "user". She has a sense of entitlement. You have made it much, much worse by catering to her, and hanging on to every word, and by showing how hungry you are to talk. You have to break that entitlement and make sure it never returns. Otherwise, she'll never be attracted to you. I'm not saying that after reconciling you can never do a few things for her........if she returns the favors. I just think the over accommodating killed her attraction for you, and now she feels entitled and expects you to cater to her. That's not how a MR should work.

I like your additions to the "No More" rules. You are going to make big changes, and you are going to love it.


I couldn't agree more. I am so relieved to finally understand the problem and I know I will never be able to go back. Even with the limited progress I have made, I feel more empowered and in control than I ever have before. Again, I don't want to get too excited, but I am allowing myself to be as excited as I want about the fact that I am learning and growing so much. Can't wait to keep going.


Today was a pretty good day and I didn't have too much trouble sticking to the rules. I did hang out with W at work for a bit (per her request) because I was already on base for an event. It was a great time; she was very playful and she didn't want me to leave. Her work is a good setting because the dynamic of her asking me for things isn't there. Her texting with OM has also noticeably decreased in the past few days, but I certainly have not forgotten about him and know he will probably flare up at any moment. Overall, I'm enjoying the positive day and viewing it as a nice "up" on the never ending rollercoaster.

One question--what do I do if W starts trying to join my GAL? She made a comment today that implied she might try to join my workout group, which I ignored, but also kind of freaked me out. And she thought I was suffocating... crazy
Quote:
Oo boy, Sandi. I'm glad I'm a guy that's not afraid of a challenge. I can't even imagine having a conversation like that with my W, but I am going to try! Thank you for including such specific examples, it really helps.


The fact that you can't imagine having a conversation like that with your cheating W, is b/c you have lived in fear of displeasing her. When a man tries too hard to appease his W, there is no male dominance in the relationship.........and she sees him as being less of man. Women are naturally attracted to a man's masculinity and his male confidence. That is the sexiest trait he can have. Part of those traits is him always being the one who leads the MR.. In other words, he is the one in charge, and she knows she had better not play him for a fool......or be she can be prepared to kiss him goodbye. He doesn't mess around with those type of women......especially one that is married to him! He commands respect wherever he goes and interacts with others. He expects respect from his W, and if she gets a potty mouth toward him or tries to act horsey or b'tchy with him.........he knows how to deal with her RIGHT THEN And THERE! He doesn't tolerate her passive-agressiveness. And let me make a point in telling you that he doesn't tell himself he'll take the high road, or he will be the better person. No! This is what a weak, conditioned, hen-pecked H tells himself. He makes up excuses in order to live with his wayward W. It just kills me to read threads where nice-guys let their WW roughshod over them, and then say they decided to be the bigger person! Really? By not standing up for yourself, or letting her manipulate you like a puppet? I think in many cases, it's when she acts like a b'tch and he just lets it go. Bad mistake.

In today's society, the modern career woman is encouraged to be aggressive and be proud of her b'tchiness.. It's one thing to have that persona at work, but when it's carried home and used with her H.........it's inappropriate and unacceptable. I don't mean she shouldn't stand up for herself. I'm not suggesting she cows down to an over-bearing man. Stay balanced with what I'm trying to say. When a woman runs roughshod over her H, it robs her of femininity. If the H hunkers down to this type of treatment, and he starts doing whatever he thinks will put her in a softer mood where he can bear to live with her..........he has just created his own hell. They will have a M where she demeans him, and he is a "yes, dear" type of H........which is so unattractive. sick

You may be asking what a man has to do when his WW is acting like a bratt (or much worse). Call her out about it, right then & there. But now listen carefully b/c you are a talker. Being a fellow talker myself, I know how easy it is too say too many words. I tend to be a lecturer. It doesn't work well with spouses or kids! Call her hand on it as soon as she starts that old cr@p, and don't let it go for a few days and then sit her down for one of your long talks. It will be powerless. Instead, call her hand on her behavior when it starts, keep it short & simple, and use as few words as possible. If you say less, she'll hear more.

Anyway, in your particular sitch, I think you can overcome your fear of making your W angry, or worrying about what she'll think about your actions, by starting out as I suggested in my previous post. Your W is trying to turn you into a handmaiden, and you are succumbing to it. I think there is time for you to turn things around and out this relationship on the right track. Being afraid and doing it anyway.......is bravery. I think you have the "right stuff". You just need a little help in getting started. Not that I am some kind of authority, but I am a former WW married to a man who had NGS (he has changed a lot), and I have a strong sense of the mindset of your WW. Once she sees she can not order you around, play her manipulative tricks, etc., she is going to start seeing you with new eyes. I think she'll fall in love with the man you are going to become.

Quote:
One question--what do I do if W starts trying to join my GAL? She made a comment today that implied she might try to join my workout group, which I ignored, but also kind of freaked me out. And she thought I was suffocating


You; "Humm, no, I don't think so".
WW: "Why not"?
You: "I need my hour". "I'm sure you understand". (and then wink at her, as you walk away).
WW: "Oh, I understand plenty"! "You are punishing me for wanting a few minutes to relax when I first come home".
You: "Look, no offense, but I just need to get out and do a few things on my on".
WW: (angry and sulking). "Fine! I certainly don't want to tag along when I'm not wanted". "I would think you would want your W to join you! "Yada, yada, yada"
You: "Okey-dokey, then". (No more conversing about it after this point. Start doing something else, while you are whistling. That may help to shut her up. Remember, you don't worry about her response or what she thinks. In fact, just assume she will react badly. She'll get over it).

Learn a few key phrases, like......

"Is this the part where we act like a M couple"?
"Is this the part where we act like a separated couple"?
"You are very unattractive when you (fill in the blank)".
"No".
"Cut the passive-aggressive cr@p". "It is unattractive".
"You can stop the manipulation any time now, b/c it's not going to work".
"You can stop trying to play me".
"Put your big girl panties on". "I'm not going to do your chores".
"If you don't know what you want to eat, how do expect anyone else to know"?
"If you want something to eat, you can watch to see how I fix my plate, then follow suite".
"You are not at your day job now, so you can stop playing drill Sargent".

A few of the above can be said as if you are amused, but very wise to her actions.....and you have no intentions of tolerating it. It depends on the situation. Don't repeat the same things too many times. This is just to give you a snap shot of how to get started in standing up to her bad behavior and how she tries to control you.

I don't know if you like to whistle a tune, or hum a song.......but I suggest you start doing this when you come in from in from GAL. You can also do it when you feel some tension in the atmosphere. You know, like when she is sulking, moaning and groaning about not able to do chores, etc. Just start whistling. You'd be surprised how that works in shutting down some of that yada-yada cr@p.

Good job of not giving in and doing her chores for her. whistle
That's a great 180!
Originally Posted By: sandi2

The fact that you can't imagine having a conversation like that with your cheating W, is b/c you have lived in fear of displeasing her. When a man tries too hard to appease his W, there is no male dominance in the relationship.........and she sees him as being less of man. Women are naturally attracted to a man's masculinity and his male confidence. That is the sexiest trait he can have. Part of those traits is him always being the one who leads the MR.. In other words, he is the one in charge, and she knows she had better not play him for a fool......or be she can be prepared to kiss him goodbye. He doesn't mess around with those type of women......especially one that is married to him! He commands respect wherever he goes and interacts with others. He expects respect from his W, and if she gets a potty mouth toward him or tries to act horsey or b'tchy with him.........he knows how to deal with her RIGHT THEN And THERE! He doesn't tolerate her passive-agressiveness. And let me make a point in telling you that he doesn't tell himself he'll take the high road, or he will be the better person. No! This is what a weak, conditioned, hen-pecked H tells himself. He makes up excuses in order to live with his wayward W. It just kills me to read threads where nice-guys let their WW roughshod over them, and then say they decided to be the bigger person! Really? By not standing up for yourself, or letting her manipulate you like a puppet? I think in many cases, it's when she acts like a b'tch and he just lets it go. Bad mistake.


Wow, I am so glad you are willing to take the time to explain all of this to me; you completely nailed that my first instinct is to probably think of taking the high road. The whole thing about turn the other cheek, have a heart of forgiveness...I think they are important things, but it clearly takes some skill to properly wield them and isn't always appropriate. Things like the lighthouse story really resonate with me because I think my self-image is built a lot on being emotionally steady and fulfilling that idealistic fantasy that girls will be crazy and all over the place, but if you are standing there waiting when they calm down they will love you or something. I have gone far down the wrong tunnel; thank goodness I am learning this now while I'm still young I guess. I am really starting to see the line between lighthouse and doormat.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
You may be asking what a man has to do when his WW is acting like a bratt (or much worse). Call her out about it, right then & there. But now listen carefully b/c you are a talker. Being a fellow talker myself, I know how easy it is too say too many words. I tend to be a lecturer. It doesn't work well with spouses or kids! Call her hand on it as soon as she starts that old cr@p, and don't let it go for a few days and then sit her down for one of your long talks. It will be powerless. Instead, call her hand on her behavior when it starts, keep it short & simple, and use as few words as possible. If you say less, she'll hear more.


Again, you are a mind-reader, I was asking just that. Short and simple, but firm. Got it. If I start calling it out every time and make it clear I won't tolerate it, will she stop? Or will I have to keep doing it forever?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Anyway, in your particular sitch, I think you can overcome your fear of making your W angry, or worrying about what she'll think about your actions, by starting out as I suggested in my previous post. Your W is trying to turn you into a handmaiden, and you are succumbing to it. I think there is time for you to turn things around and out this relationship on the right track. Being afraid and doing it anyway.......is bravery. I think you have the "right stuff". You just need a little help in getting started. Not that I am some kind of authority, but I am a former WW married to a man who had NGS (he has changed a lot), and I have a strong sense of the mindset of your WW. Once she sees she can not order you around, play her manipulative tricks, etc., she is going to start seeing you with new eyes. I think she'll fall in love with the man you are going to become.


Don't get me too excited grin I am very flattered you think I have what it takes to pull this off. I think so too. In fact, I know that I can overcome my fear and change the way I handle my W. But her actions and feelings are out of my control, so I hope you're right that her attraction will come back. Your insight is more helpful than you can know. You're right I just need help getting started. I'm very smart and did well in school, but this was not one of the subjects they taught!

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
You; "Humm, no, I don't think so".
WW: "Why not"?
You: "I need my hour". "I'm sure you understand". (and then wink at her, as you walk away).
WW: "Oh, I understand plenty"! "You are punishing me for wanting a few minutes to relax when I first come home".
You: "Look, no offense, but I just need to get out and do a few things on my on".
WW: (angry and sulking). "Fine! I certainly don't want to tag along when I'm not wanted". "I would think you would want your W to join you! "Yada, yada, yada"
You: "Okey-dokey, then". (No more conversing about it after this point. Start doing something else, while you are whistling. That may help to shut her up. Remember, you don't worry about her response or what she thinks. In fact, just assume she will react badly. She'll get over it).


These dialogues are so helpful. Totally will be a 180 for me, but I'm hoping it will become more natural pretty quickly.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Learn a few key phrases, like......

"Is this the part where we act like a M couple"?
"Is this the part where we act like a separated couple"?
"You are very unattractive when you (fill in the blank)".
"No".
"Cut the passive-aggressive cr@p". "It is unattractive".
"You can stop the manipulation any time now, b/c it's not going to work".
"You can stop trying to play me".
"Put your big girl panties on". "I'm not going to do your chores".
"If you don't know what you want to eat, how do expect anyone else to know"?
"If you want something to eat, you can watch to see how I fix my plate, then follow suite".
"You are not at your day job now, so you can stop playing drill Sargent".


I need to print these on an index card.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I don't know if you like to whistle a tune, or hum a song.......but I suggest you start doing this when you come in from in from GAL. You can also do it when you feel some tension in the atmosphere. You know, like when she is sulking, moaning and groaning about not able to do chores, etc. Just start whistling. You'd be surprised how that works in shutting down some of that yada-yada cr@p.


Interesting idea! I am admittedly awful at keeping a tune, but I'll come up with something comparable.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Good job of not giving in and doing her chores for her. whistle
That's a great 180!


As always, thank you!! If my MR somehow gets out of this ditch, you will seriously personally be a huge reason why. Along with all the others here that have been so kind to give me advice.

Now, here's my chance to take one step down this road to the new me and not look back...W just messaged me that she wants to go out with her coworkers tonight, "but doesn't have a ride home..." The passive-aggression won't die! This time the conversation ends at "Taxi?" cool
Quote:
Wow, I am so glad you are willing to take the time to explain all of this to me; you completely nailed that my first instinct is to probably think of taking the high road. The whole thing about turn the other cheek, have a heart of forgiveness...I think they are important things, but it clearly takes some skill to properly wield them and isn't always appropriate.


I understand, really. I grew up in a little traditional church. My parents were very strict and religious. I come from a line of strong women, and my mother was quite spunky, but always....always a lady. My father was a WW2 vet and there was no doubt who was the head/leader in our home. He was exactly what my mother needed. If my mother had M a soft man who had NGS, she would have filed for D on the grounds of disgust. You see, men with NGS make lovely boyfriends, but not so much H's. Of course every man with NGS has different degrees of it.......just like every WW will differ a bit.

Anyway, back to turning the other cheek, this does not mean you become a door mat.
Men who are already nice-guys, plus live by the principles you've mentioned.........can have trouble finding the middle road, so to speak. To them, these "Golden Rule" standards almost feeds his nice-guy syndrome........and, IMHO, I often wonder if it becomes a subconcious excuse for them not taking a more assertive approach in their relationships. Learning how to rightly divide the scripture.......or as I say, knowing how to stay balanced in your thinking and actions......is the key that will open doors for you. I think when I first start talking about applying a tougher love in the MR, the H mentally pictures a mean, over-bearing type of man. He jumps from one end of the spectrum to the opposite end. See what I am saying?

Quote:
Things like the lighthouse story really resonate with me because I think my self-image is built a lot on being emotionally steady and fulfilling that idealistic fantasy that girls will be crazy and all over the place, but if you are standing there waiting when they calm down they will love you or something. I have gone far down the wrong tunnel; thank goodness I am learning this now while I'm still young I guess. I am really starting to see the line between lighthouse and doormat.


That's wonderful, 44. Remember, the lighthouse does not go out into the waters to rescue the sailor in the storm. It does not bend or move from its position. It stands tall and solid, giving out that beam of light. If the sailor will follow that light, s/he can make it to shore. It is the lighthouse's job to give a beam of light. It's the sailor's decision to follow the beam to shore, or choose her own path and risk destruction.

Quote:
If I start calling it out every time and make it clear I won't tolerate it, will she stop? Or will I have to keep doing it forever?


Yes, I think if you are consistent......she will start backing off. I don't think it will be overnight, or stop all at once. It is a pattern of behavior she uses with you, so you have to train her that she can't act that way with you. She'll slack off, but this will be her brand of testing you to see if you are staying strong enough to tell her, "Don't even go there with me".

Once you've establishedtrust boundary and you call her out whenever she starts displaying this behavior, you won't have to say much in order for her to know she can't play that game with you. Learning short phrases like I just gave, will be useful, and shouldn't be difficult.

"Don't even try to start that old stuff, b/c it won't work".
"Back off"!
"Don't start, b/c I'm not going to join your game".
"Try another approach, b/c this one is not going to fly".
"You need to back up and try again, b/c this doesn't work for me".
"Don't start".

Eventually, you should be able to just give her "the look" that tells her you won't tolerate it. That is how parents do with their kids. They have to train them how to behave properly, especially at certain times & places. If they have done a decent job of training, and one of the kids forget (or test) the parent b/c they are at the grocery store or at someone's house........all mom has to do is snap her fingers and point at the kid, and he knows he'd better straighten up right that minute! I had a hyper kid, and as they say, he was all boy. However, by the time he was in school, all I had to do was give him "the look", and he immediately knew what to do. WW's can act like undisciplined children. So in the beginning of training her what is not acceptable and what you won't tolerate, you may wonder if she'll ever stop testing you. Not letting her get by a few times before calling her out is key. I can't stress that enough. Short, simple, firm, and consistency is the formula.

Quote:
I need to print these on an index card.
. laugh

Quote:
If my MR somehow gets out of this ditch, you will seriously personally be a huge reason why


Well, I take it seriously. I like to kid around, and at times, I can have a sarcastic sense of humor when I'm posting.......that may not be received in the way I intended, IDK. However, the advice is a serious sense of responsibility. Thanks for your encouragement. I appreciate it.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

I understand, really. I grew up in a little traditional church. My parents were very strict and religious. I come from a line of strong women, and my mother was quite spunky, but always....always a lady. My father was a WW2 vet and there was no doubt who was the head/leader in our home. He was exactly what my mother needed. If my mother had M a soft man who had NGS, she would have filed for D on the grounds of disgust. You see, men with NGS make lovely boyfriends, but not so much H's. Of course every man with NGS has different degrees of it.......just like every WW will differ a bit.


I was also raised in a very religious home. Christian school my whole life. This definitely contributes to some of my confusion and helped shape me to develop NGS. But, like I said, it's all starting to become clear smile .

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Anyway, back to turning the other cheek, this does not mean you become a door mat.
Men who are already nice-guys, plus live by the principles you've mentioned.........can have trouble finding the middle road, so to speak. To them, these "Golden Rule" standards almost feeds his nice-guy syndrome........and, IMHO, I often wonder if it becomes a subconcious excuse for them not taking a more assertive approach in their relationships. Learning how to rightly divide the scripture.......or as I say, knowing how to stay balanced in your thinking and actions......is the key that will open doors for you. I think when I first start talking about applying a tougher love in the MR, the H mentally pictures a mean, over-bearing type of man. He jumps from one end of the spectrum to the opposite end. See what I am saying?


I think you are totally right about it becoming a subconscious excuse for not being assertive. I have never been what you would call an assertive person, but as I grew up and became an adult, I became much more assertive socially and in the workplace etc. But for some reason I'm still the scared little boy version of myself when it comes to relationships. Yes, the balance is the key. I don't think I'm in any danger of becoming mean or domineering. I just need to get comfortable standing up to my W and communicating assertively, as opposed to passive-aggressively or submissively etc.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
That's wonderful, 44. Remember, the lighthouse does not go out into the waters to rescue the sailor in the storm. It does not bend or move from its position. It stands tall and solid, giving out that beam of light. If the sailor will follow that light, s/he can make it to shore. It is the lighthouse's job to give a beam of light. It's the sailor's decision to follow the beam to shore, or choose her own path and risk destruction.


So, so important and true. This is what I strive to be and in the past I definitely would have gone swimming, thinking I was playing the hero. Now I understand that I cannot rescue someone, especially if they don't want to be rescued. They will not view me as a hero, they will resent me. They need to come back to shore on their own in their own time, if ever.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Yes, I think if you are consistent......she will start backing off. I don't think it will be overnight, or stop all at once. It is a pattern of behavior she uses with you, so you have to train her that she can't act that way with you. She'll slack off, but this will be her brand of testing you to see if you are staying strong enough to tell her, "Don't even go there with me".


This makes sense. Consistency is key.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Once you've establishedtrust boundary and you call her out whenever she starts displaying this behavior, you won't have to say much in order for her to know she can't play that game with you. Learning short phrases like I just gave, will be useful, and shouldn't be difficult.

"Don't even try to start that old stuff, b/c it won't work".
"Back off"!
"Don't start, b/c I'm not going to join your game".
"Try another approach, b/c this one is not going to fly".
"You need to back up and try again, b/c this doesn't work for me".
"Don't start".


Another index card grin

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Eventually, you should be able to just give her "the look" that tells her you won't tolerate it. That is how parents do with their kids. They have to train them how to behave properly, especially at certain times & places. If they have done a decent job of training, and one of the kids forget (or test) the parent b/c they are at the grocery store or at someone's house........all mom has to do is snap her fingers and point at the kid, and he knows he'd better straighten up right that minute! I had a hyper kid, and as they say, he was all boy. However, by the time he was in school, all I had to do was give him "the look", and he immediately knew what to do. WW's can act like undisciplined children. So in the beginning of training her what is not acceptable and what you won't tolerate, you may wonder if she'll ever stop testing you. Not letting her get by a few times before calling her out is key. I can't stress that enough. Short, simple, firm, and consistency is the formula.


Got it. Everything would be so different if I had the kind of power that came with that look. I don't have kids, but it reminds me of training dogs as well. They might obey in a quiet setting at home, but at the park, next to a bike, etc is a whole different ball game. Good training means that snap of the fingers works, no matter the setting. And like you said, the only way your dog will ever become that reliably trained is if he knows you will never give him an inch. Not that I'm trying to compare my W to a dog laugh


Today was a day of mixed feelings for me. Emotionally, I struggled. I could tell she was texting OM most of the day. I would say the most accurate description is to say I felt discouraged. I was missing my W. Tomorrow will be exactly 4 weeks since BD. On one hand, I can't believe it's already been a month. On the other, reality hit as to just how long the road is. Sooo much patience, no guarantees.

But, on the bright side, I am making so much progress with my own growth. I picked up another book today to add to my arsenal. It is about why relationships become unbalanced. Wow, it's like the textbook I never thought existed on this topic. So much great information. Of course, it's agonizing to have all the thoughts like "why didn't I find this sooner?", "if only my W could read this!" And so on. But I am learning so much about myself as I read and now know why I have always felt like the powerless one in my relationships. Really completes the picture along with NGS, male dominance etc.

Sandi, you'll be happy to hear that I recorded a few successes today. First, it was my turn to make dinner and I assertively asked my W if she could please help by cutting the chicken. Something that has always frustrated me is that when it's my turn to cook, she sits on her @ss watching TV while I prepare the whole meal. But when it's her turn, she drags me into it with her and I help do half of it. Well, she b'tched and moaned as expected, but best believe she was in that kitchen doing what I asked. I only needed one thing and I thanked her and told her she was free to go when she finished. Later, she came back for a snack and asked me to go pause her show while she fixed it. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner! I flat out told her no. One word. Later, she said she needed a water...I said well then go get one. I'm not your errand boy. She pushed back though. Keeps asking why I have an attitude. At one point, she said something like don't be surprised if I ask you to take me to the airport one day so I can go be on my own.

I won't lie, it makes me question what I'm doing. But then she always come back and her mood doesn't last. I was trying to write this post earlier and she came into my room asking what I was doing and actually tried to manhandle my iPad out of my hands! She also asked if I was talking to a girl when I was on the phone with my dad. I think she is feeling the loss of control. She was drinking a bit tonight and needed to go to her work office suddenly (long story) so I had to drive her. She made some comments about being lonely, only having the dogs to talk to, feeling mentally unstable. It made me really sad. At the end of the day, sometimes it's really hard for me to understand why she is so miserable and why my love wasn't enough. Not trying to get all sappy, but it's a very helpless, dejected feeling.
Originally Posted By: 44tries
[quote=sandi2]
She pushed back though. Keeps asking why I have an attitude. At one point, she said something like don't be surprised if I ask you to take me to the airport one day so I can go be on my own.



and next time she says something so self-centered you can reply, "don't be surprised if i tell you call a taxi."

you have to keep up a position of confidence... what you share about your wife leaves me with my mouth wide open... she is so full of herself... how can you stand it? she doesn't want to be married to you... she is having an affair with a 19-year old... that grosses me to the nth degree... my sons are 18 and 22... both have friends that are 19... ewwwww... seriously! let him take her to the airport or get her water... or pause her television show...

don't give in to her silly demands... keep standing up for yourself and eventually you will actually BELIEVE it! you will believe in yourself... but you have to keep practicing it...

--artista
Quote:
Today was a day of mixed feelings for me. Emotionally, I struggled. I could tell she was texting OM most of the day. I would say the most accurate description is to say I felt discouraged.


Was she home all day, or how did you know she was texting OM? Her body language, etc.? And why were you discouraged? Good golly, you are four weeks in, just getting some information about WW's and haven't really started applying tough love yet.........and you let HER decide your mood b/c she was texting.

Quote:
I was missing my W


What part are you missing?

Quote:
But, on the bright side, I am making so much progress with my own growth. I picked up another book today to add to my arsenal. It is about why relationships become unbalanced. Wow, it's like the textbook I never thought existed on this topic. So much great information. Of course, it's agonizing to have all the thoughts like "why didn't I find this sooner?", "if only my W could read this!" And so on. But I am learning so much about myself as I read and now know why I have always felt like the powerless one in my relationships. Really completes the picture along with NGS, male dominance etc.


That's why I asked you why you let her determine your mood today. She texts OM all day and you miss her? I don't know how to respond to that.........at least, not nicely. I think you are doing a great job at gathering and digesting material on the subjects that pertain to your sitch.

Quote:
Sandi, you'll be happy to hear that I recorded a few successes today. First, it was my turn to make dinner and I assertively asked my W if she could please help by cutting the chicken. Something that has always frustrated me is that when it's my turn to cook, she sits on her @ss watching TV while I prepare the whole meal. But when it's her turn, she drags me into it with her and I help do half of it. Well, she b'tched and moaned as expected, but best believe she was in that kitchen doing what I asked. I only needed one thing and I thanked her and told her she was free to go when she finished. Later, she came back for a snack and asked me to go pause her show while she fixed it. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner! I flat out told her no. One word. Later, she said she needed a water...I said well then go get one. I'm not your errand boy. She pushed back though. Keeps asking why I have an attitude. At one point, she said something like don't be surprised if I ask you to take me to the airport one day so I can go be on my own.


A very good job! Considering this is actually day one of using some suggestions I've offered. She acts like a spoiled bratt to me, but then I'm not the one in love with her. What did you say she when ask why you have an attitude?

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I won't lie, it makes me question what I'm doing


What makes you question it? Are you referring to her snotty comment about the airport? Good grief, if you are going to let something that small cause you to question what you are doing..................Don't you know that's why you are here, to figure out what you are doing? Come on, your b@lls are trying to come through, so stop giving up and feeling defeated over some stupid remark she made. Next time, use Artista's example.

Why were you driving her to work last night? Doesn't she have a vehicle to get back & forth?

The next time she is home and has been texting all day .......especially if it's OM..........get out of there and don't go home until you know she'll be in bed. And don't answer the phone not one time when she starts blowing it up. Don't you dare go home and cook her dinner.

Guard your IPad, passwords, etc. She going to get suspicious. Let her. Just don't let her find your threads, even if you have to put it under lock and key.

Keep on keeping on!
Originally Posted By: artista

and next time she says something so self-centered you can reply, "don't be surprised if i tell you call a taxi."

you have to keep up a position of confidence... what you share about your wife leaves me with my mouth wide open... she is so full of herself... how can you stand it? she doesn't want to be married to you... she is having an affair with a 19-year old... that grosses me to the nth degree... my sons are 18 and 22... both have friends that are 19... ewwwww... seriously! let him take her to the airport or get her water... or pause her television show...

don't give in to her silly demands... keep standing up for yourself and eventually you will actually BELIEVE it! you will believe in yourself... but you have to keep practicing it...

--artista


Thanks, artista. I fully intend to keep practicing it until I believe it. It has been a real eye opener to see the responses here and fully realize how spoiled and entitled she has become due to my accomodation. The sad thing is, I don't think she is spoiled at all in a general sense. She does not act that way with the rest of the world. I have created my own monster. But that does not excuse her or mean she should not be able to realize how ridiculous she has become... I totally agree with you about the A. It disgusts me too. I don't know what she is thinking, but I think she is very lost in her own unhappiness.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Was she home all day, or how did you know she was texting OM? Her body language, etc.? And why were you discouraged? Good golly, you are four weeks in, just getting some information about WW's and haven't really started applying tough love yet.........and you let HER decide your mood b/c she was texting.


She was home most of the day because it was her day off. I did go to the gym and run some errands, but by the afternoon I was home. I would have left the house all day, but I'm in the middle of finals and had work to do. So, I put on some headphones and closed the door to the office. Believe me, if I let her texting affecting my mood I would be in a very bad place. Yesterday, a little bit slipped through the cracks. I don't think there was a logical reason I was discouraged. Maybe just part of the roller-coaster.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What part are you missing?


I'm missing her loving side. I'm missing her coming up and giving me a hug or showing concern or caring about how I feel. I'm missing the closeness. I know these are selfish things. Sometimes I just become weary of having to have my guard up at all times. Knowing she is no longer a safe place and instead a source of stress, anxiety, and sadness for me (most of the time, detachment allows me to not be too affected by these). Sometimes I just wish she wouldn't come home at all that day so I can relax. But that's just me being despondent and having a moment of weakness about all the work I am putting in. It's the same as when I'm at the gym and I've done two sets and for a second I just want to skip the third. I pick myself up and remind myself this is for me and no worthwhile change is going to come without hard work.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
That's why I asked you why you let her determine your mood today. She texts OM all day and you miss her? I don't know how to respond to that.........at least, not nicely. I think you are doing a great job at gathering and digesting material on the subjects that pertain to your sitch.


O, I understand. This is what detachment is for. I can tell you this--the me even one year ago would have NEVER been able to achieve the level that I already have. While yesterday was imperfect, I do often find myself walking by and hearing the ding of her messages and feeling absolutely nothing. That amazes me and motivates me to keep going. I never again want to be that guy that feels adrenaline and heart racing at stupid things I cannot control and really aren't a threat to me.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
A very good job! Considering this is actually day one of using some suggestions I've offered. She acts like a spoiled bratt to me, but then I'm not the one in love with her. What did you say she when ask why you have an attitude?


Thanks smile . It's only up from here. She does act like a spoiled brat, toward me anyway. As I said to artista, I would never consider her a spoiled or entitled person from an objective perspective. But with me, I have allowed and allowed and she has slid further and further until now it's just at appalling levels. It's been a slowww conditioning, where the line she is willing to cross moves an inch and my tolerance moves an inch with it. Time to undo all of that. Great question, and perhaps you can help me formulate a better response. I usually say something like "I don't have an attitude. I'm just not your butler."

An example. Yesterday, after the water and cooking episodes, she called out and said "Are you feeling nice enough to bring me a beer?" I told her it had nothing to do with "niceness". She persisted and asked then what? I wish I could remember my exact words, but it was something like it has nothing to do with being not nice to say I won't run around doing your errands. She said something like I never said you were my butler. I said you say it with your actions and constant requests. Then she went into the familiar speech about how we were talking and talking and not solving a problem. I really think I only said those two sentences and the convo was not long. But clearly I still need to improve and give shorter, firmer one-liners and walk away.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
What makes you question it? Are you referring to her snotty comment about the airport? Good grief, if you are going to let something that small cause you to question what you are doing..................Don't you know that's why you are here, to figure out what you are doing? Come on, your b@lls are trying to come through, so stop giving up and feeling defeated over some stupid remark she made. Next time, use Artista's example.


No, it wasn't the airport comment. I know she will give snotty answers and push back. You explained that pretty well and I'm not worried about whatever she does to try to regain her power. The reason I question what I did (and I'm meaning everything I did and said, not just the specific lines you gave me) is because yesterday she made at least three comments about wanting to be left alone, needing space, wanting to run away etc. This seems like a big red flag to me because it means she is feeling pressure of some kind. Maybe I shouldn't have asked her to help with the cooking? I'm still trying to pinpoint exactly where that pressure is coming from. But she hasn't made many comments like that since BD as I've really not showed any kinds of pursuit whatsoever and yesterday was a very noticeable uptick. Maybe it's just the discomfort of not being able to sit back and have me do everything for her, IDK. But, that's why I'm questioning.

Continuing with this theme of her feeling like she needs space, there was a bad incident last night caused by the dogs. I mentioned before my dog is having a lot of trouble with the separate rooms. He often opens the doors to go into her room. He refuses to stay in mine. Last night he did this at about 1am and I went to quietly put him in with her because the doors can't stay open and leave dogs wandering around the house all night. She was on the phone when we went in there. Dropped her phone, jumped out of the bed, you would have thought I was the police raiding a drug house. I assume she was talking to OM. Of course, claimed it was her friend C. Whatever. Point is, she wasn't happy this morning and went on again about how I and the dogs won't leave her alone and I need to do something about my dog that is obsessed with her, blah blah. She complained she is sleeping on crappy beds, doesn't want the dogs in there, can't get any sleep (uh, maybe get off your phone?). Right now, I basically ignore her bed complaints when she makes them. I'm sick of hearing her say I have some throne of comfort and she's banished to the slums "when she's the one that has to go to work". Seriously!? Sure, I'm living in paradise sleeping alone in my marital bed while my W talks to OM in another bedroom. I want to say "O, I'm sorry, are you surprised there are some discomforts involved in trying to get out of your marriage?"

Anyway, I am doing all that I can to leave her alone and have been since BD. The dogs don't understand and I guess I need to figure out how to keep them in my room. Probably put up a gate, more inconvience for me. She reminded me of something, though, that really tells me how badly I need to make a drastic change. She has always said I have no power over my dog. I need to stand up to him and not talk to him like he's a human. Today, her exact words were "Have some authority in your life. Are you going to let everyone run you over all the time, especially a dog?" This tells you, clear as day, how she views me. Worse thing is, she isn't wrong. The reason my dog probably refuses to stay with me and desperately needs to be with her is because he knows she's the alpha in this house. My eyes are WIDE open.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Why were you driving her to work last night? Doesn't she have a vehicle to get back & forth?


Yes, she does and we took it. I drove because she had been drinking.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
The next time she is home and has been texting all day .......especially if it's OM..........get out of there and don't go home until you know she'll be in bed. And don't answer the phone not one time when she starts blowing it up. Don't you dare go home and cook her dinner.


Got it. Once I'm done with this week and my final exams, this will be easy.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Guard your IPad, passwords, etc. She going to get suspicious. Let her. Just don't let her find your threads, even if you have to put it under lock and key.


Yes, especially after her major intrusion yesterday I am going to be even more careful. Changing my passwords on laptop and iPad.
Not sure the acronym OM works in this thread.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
Not sure the acronym OM works in this thread.


How so, Steve?
Quote:
I'm missing her loving side. I'm missing her coming up and giving me a hug or showing concern or caring about how I feel. I'm missing the closeness. I know these are selfish things


I don't think it's selfish. You miss her showing you affection. That's understandable.

Quote:
Great question, and perhaps you can help me formulate a better response. I usually say something like "I don't have an attitude. I'm just not your butler."


Well, I doubt I could top that response! I tend to get too sarcastic.

She is going to push back really hard, b/c you have had a big hand in spoiling her. It's always harder to take a spoiled bratt and retrain them. But, it can be done!

I think she will pull the guilt card every time you come back at her with a response that puts her in her place. She'll try to threaten, like she did about the airport. She will come up with new stuff. She'll twist it around to make it sound like you are the one having a mood/attitude........not being "nice enough to cater to her", etc. These are all actions of a spoiled bratt. If you give in, you will lose the ground you gain. Just keep your eyes forward, knowing how she's going to respect you some day. When she stops having this spoiled attitude, I bet the loving attitude returns pretty quickly.

When she says something about your attitude, say something like:

"I'm not the one who expects my spouse to wait on me hand & foot".

"I don't have an attitude. I'm just tired of you expecting me to hop when you say frog".

"Am I nice enough to bring you (fill in the blank)? Yes, I am. Will I do it? No, I won't".

(chuckle) "Live with it, Princess".

Quote:
She said something like I never said you were my butler. I said you say it with your actions and constant requests. Then she went into the familiar speech about how we were talking and talking and not solving a problem. I really think I only said those two sentences and the convo was not long. But clearly I still need to improve and give shorter, firmer one-liners and walk away.


I think it may have been b/c you tried to "explain". Let her figure it out.

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She reminded me of something, though, that really tells me how badly I need to make a drastic change. She has always said I have no power over my dog. I need to stand up to him and not talk to him like he's a human. Today, her exact words were "Have some authority in your life. Are you going to let everyone run you over all the time, especially a dog?" This tells you, clear as day, how she views me. Worse thing is, she isn't wrong. The reason my dog probably refuses to stay with me and desperately needs to be with her is because he knows she's the alpha in this house. My eyes are WIDE open.


Remember it. B/c one day soon, you will have to remind her that you are taking some authority in your life.

She wants space? Next time you are GAL and she's blowing up the phone, tell her, "Enjoy your space".
Originally Posted By: 44tries
Originally Posted By: Steve85
Not sure the acronym OM works in this thread.


How so, Steve?


There is nothing M about this boy.
Her comments about feeling alone or wanting to be left alone have nothing to do with you... It has nothing to do with your asking her to cut the chicken... And in fact, she's pretty darn confusing, and you can tell her that next time she asks about your attitude, or if you are nice enough to do something for her...

Say something like, "you asked for space and I am giving it to you, and you seem to like it until there's something you don't feel like doing... Well, I am not having it... Just think of it as me giving you your space.":

Something like that...
Quote:
There is nothing M about this boy.


Steve, OM is the abbreviation for "other man".
Guys,
Steve is joking. The correct acrynym here would be OB.
Originally Posted By: sandi2
Quote:
There is nothing M about this boy.


Steve, OM is the abbreviation for "other man".




Oh I know. 😉
Quote:
😉


Are you cursing? grin
Originally Posted By: sandi2

Well, I doubt I could top that response! I tend to get too sarcastic.


Hooray! I must be learning cool

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
She is going to push back really hard, b/c you have had a big hand in spoiling her. It's always harder to take a spoiled bratt and retrain them. But, it can be done!

I think she will pull the guilt card every time you come back at her with a response that puts her in her place. She'll try to threaten, like she did about the airport. She will come up with new stuff. She'll twist it around to make it sound like you are the one having a mood/attitude........not being "nice enough to cater to her", etc. These are all actions of a spoiled bratt. If you give in, you will lose the ground you gain. Just keep your eyes forward, knowing how she's going to respect you some day. When she stops having this spoiled attitude, I bet the loving attitude returns pretty quickly.


I will do my best to be prepared for the pushback. She is definitely the master as twisting things to make it seem like I'm the bad guy somehow. I don't know how she does it! I need to learn quickly what to do in these situations because I know they are only going to happen more, and right now my default response is to usually become silent and look pissed off which isn't exactly 'strong'. And I definitely don't want to lose any hard earned ground.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
When she says something about your attitude, say something like:

"I'm not the one who expects my spouse to wait on me hand & foot".

"I don't have an attitude. I'm just tired of you expecting me to hop when you say frog".

"Am I nice enough to bring you (fill in the blank)? Yes, I am. Will I do it? No, I won't".

(chuckle) "Live with it, Princess".


Perfect! Gonna need to get a box for all these index cards.. wink

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I think it may have been b/c you tried to "explain". Let her figure it out.


This makes sense. Much less than my 'usual', but still too much.

Quote:
Remember it. B/c one day soon, you will have to remind her that you are taking some authority in your life.


I'm not exactly sure what you mean here...are referring to when she pushes back?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
She wants space? Next time you are GAL and she's blowing up the phone, tell her, "Enjoy your space".


Great idea smile

I think I did pretty well today. She complained again of a migraine and feeling like crap. I said sorry to hear that and went about my day. She came into the kitchen while I was eating lunch and said something like "O wow, you can make yourself lunch but not me?" I just said "help yourself, there's plenty in the fridge". I kind of wish I had said something a little stronger, though, because it is really ridiculous when she does that. I'm not allowed to eat a meal without serving her as well?? And she doesn't even want to be married to me and still expects this??? Dear lord.

I took the dogs to the park and then went for a three hour bike ride, which was awesome. I am so happy I am finally getting out and actually seeing the beautiful country I am living in. Meanwhile, W sat on the couch the ENTIRE day watching the trashiest television I can think of. I am actually starting to get a little worried. She is becoming crazier by the day. Manically asked if I was going on the bike ride alone or with someone, said okay I'm coming too (yeah right), followed me outside to smoke a cigarette while I pumped up my tires. When I got back, she physically wiped my forehead and said "No way you could have been riding that whole time, there would be more sweat." This time I did laugh in her face. I couldn't believe it! I promise she was not always like this. I hope she isn't going to have a nervous breakdown or something. She climbed into bed at 8pm and ranted to her iPad like a crazy person for 15min about not turning on, I could hear it from downstairs. I can honestly say she seems downright miserable.
Originally Posted By: Steve85
[There is nothing M about this boy.


Ha! I love it. As soon as I posted to ask what you meant, I realized this was probably it. You are so right, Steve. He doesn't deserve to be OM.
Originally Posted By: artista
Her comments about feeling alone or wanting to be left alone have nothing to do with you... It has nothing to do with your asking her to cut the chicken... And in fact, she's pretty darn confusing, and you can tell her that next time she asks about your attitude, or if you are nice enough to do something for her...

Say something like, "you asked for space and I am giving it to you, and you seem to like it until there's something you don't feel like doing... Well, I am not having it... Just think of it as me giving you your space.":

Something like that...


I'm glad it isn't just me that thinks she makes no sense! I am also glad you said you don't think the being alone thing has anything to do with me. I have become very sensitive to this 'space' issue because I will admit, I used to be very over-bearing. The kind that stems from desperation and neediness, and I am ashamed. But I haven't been that way for quite some time, because I listened and changed when she said she felt suffocated all the time (and also realized I was disgusted with myself). So now, when she makes similar comments, I panic a little, but you know what? I know I'm not like that anymore, and I don't think I am the real reason. She might be trying to convince herself that problem is still real, but her issues with it now are all her own. Great suggestion on what to say! I will use it, thank you.
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Ha! I love it. As soon as I posted to ask what you meant, I realized this was probably it. You are so right, Steve. He doesn't deserve to be OM.


Ahhhhh, I get what Steve was saying. So, I'm a little slow today. blush
Quote:
I will do my best to be prepared for the pushback. She is definitely the master as twisting things to make it seem like I'm the bad guy somehow. I don't know how she does it! I need to learn quickly what to do in these situations because I know they are only going to happen more, and right now my default response is to usually become silent and look pissed off which isn't exactly 'strong'. And I definitely don't want to lose any hard earned ground.


No, don't go silent and looked pissed off, b/c she'll know she got to you. She'll know it worked. I can tell you what to do. You become okay at being "the bad guy". I'm serious. Making you sound like the bad guy is one of the cards she plays. She has this deck of cards, and if one doesn't trump or score, she'll play another one. Only you control how you respond to her childish manipulative tricks. She can't make you feel like the bad guy, unless you agree with her. Right? And, you can't convince her otherwise, as long as you are trying to prove her wrong. See, that has been your mistake. You jump when she snaps her fingers, trying to prove you are a good H. It doesn't work that way. In fact, it works just the opposite.

Have you ever wondered why girls went after the "bad boy" type of guys? Well, I don't want to get into it right now, but I garantee you a bad boy would not bring her something to drink or take something upstairs to her.........and she would nearly worship him. There's a lesson there that all men with NGS should learn.

So she twists things around........so what! Don't explain anything to her. If she says you are bad, say, "Yeah, I am a real bad boy". Sound as if you are having fun with it. Remember, act as if you find it amusing when she says this silly stuff.

WW: "You are horrible"! "Don't be surprised if I don't come home some night"!
You: "Okey-dokey then". (start whistling)

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I think I did pretty well today. She complained again of a migraine and feeling like crap. I said sorry to hear that and went about my day. She came into the kitchen while I was eating lunch and said something like "O wow, you can make yourself lunch but not me?" I just said "help yourself, there's plenty in the fridge". I kind of wish I had said something a little stronger, though, because it is really ridiculous when she does that. I'm not allowed to eat a meal without serving her as well?? And she doesn't even want to be married to me and still expects this??? Dear lord.


It's b/c you have done this so much that she now feels entitled. I think your response was perfect. Very nonchalant. That's exactly the kind of attitude to show. whistle

Great job on the bike ride! Your W isn't having a breakdown. Her sickness is called "self absorbed". I think you are going to quickly outgrow her. But, we'll wait and discuss it when it happens.

BTW, did she have a lot of questions about the bike ride? And did you keep your answers vague?

Keep up the great improvements!
Originally Posted By: sandi2

No, don't go silent and looked pissed off, b/c she'll know she got to you. She'll know it worked. I can tell you what to do. You become okay at being "the bad guy". I'm serious. Making you sound like the bad guy is one of the cards she plays. She has this deck of cards, and if one doesn't trump or score, she'll play another one. Only you control how you respond to her childish manipulative tricks. She can't make you feel like the bad guy, unless you agree with her. Right? And, you can't convince her otherwise, as long as you are trying to prove her wrong. See, that has been your mistake. You jump when she snaps her fingers, trying to prove you are a good H. It doesn't work that way. In fact, it works just the opposite.


I definitely understand the dynamic you are describing--she paints me as the bad guy so I jump to do things for her and prove her wrong. But I got a little confused by what you said should be my response. You said I should agree with her? You also said she can't make me feel like the bad guy unless I agree with her. Sorry, I may be slow today. I'm clear though about how I shouldn't be trying to prove her wrong.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Have you ever wondered why girls went after the "bad boy" type of guys? Well, I don't want to get into it right now, but I garantee you a bad boy would not bring her something to drink or take something upstairs to her.........and she would nearly worship him. There's a lesson there that all men with NGS should learn.


Yes, many times. I know that it's true, but I could never really wrap my head around the logic of it. However, data is data, and you are right I think there's a valuable lesson there.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
So she twists things around........so what! Don't explain anything to her. If she says you are bad, say, "Yeah, I am a real bad boy". Sound as if you are having fun with it. Remember, act as if you find it amusing when she says this silly stuff.

WW: "You are horrible"! "Don't be surprised if I don't come home some night"!
You: "Okey-dokey then". (start whistling)


Got it. Need to add No more explaining to my rules list. I do have to say if she says I'm a jerk for mocking her, she wouldn't really be wrong. Is that what I'm going for?

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
It's b/c you have done this so much that she now feels entitled. I think your response was perfect. Very nonchalant. That's exactly the kind of attitude to show. whistle


Great, I can do nonchalant.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Great job on the bike ride! Your W isn't having a breakdown. Her sickness is called "self absorbed". I think you are going to quickly outgrow her. But, we'll wait and discuss it when it happens.


Lol, that does sound more accurate. You might be right. Either way, I'll be happy because that means I've grown. But I hope she will grow too when gets the picture that her silly antics aren't going to fly anymore.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
BTW, did she have a lot of questions about the bike ride? And did you keep your answers vague?


Yes, she was on her interrogation kick again, mostly seeming paranoid I was going with some girl (it really doesn't make any sense to me why she should care, especially to a manic extent). I did try and keep my answers as vague as possible. When I first headed out the door, she asked where I was going and I said "Out." Of course, "out where? What did you just get out of the office? Where are you going, tell me now!" Then tries to demand to see what I got, which was my bike bag. After she saw it, I just said omg I'm going to ride my bike, don't know how long but don't wait up. Surprisingly, she did not message me while I was on the ride, even though it was a very long one. But when I got back, she did the forehead thing and also asked questions like why are your shoes muddy? Did you get off your bike? I just said, "It's been raining a lot. There was mud." I think I did pretty well.


I realize I'm posting a lot and I thank all who to take the time to read them. I am really treading into unknown territory and appreciate all the support. This morning was, to put it bluntly, pretty awful. As usual, W gets up and starts muttering and swearing to herself about how she's late, doesn't have time to pack lunch, etc. These are all passive aggressive comments to try and get me to help her. Obviously, now that I'm in recovery, I ignore them and go about my own business. That makes it worse. The comments become rants. "F*** me, right dogs? Always late, nobody cares about me. I'll just go hungry, blah blah blah." I just tune her out. She not-so-subtly declares she fed the dogs and let them out (which is her job in the mornings and always has been; I do evenings). Somehow, she thinks this means I owe her something. I just say "cool, thanks."

Well, today the rants turned more personal. The pushback is in full swing. She is yelling about how she has no clean clothes in her closet. I remind her she has a big pile up on the hamper, ready to be put away. A week ago, she was telling me I didn't need to fold her laundry, to which I lightheartedly said 'O don't worry, I wasn't going to'. (But I will still wash it, because laundry has always been my job and frankly it's more trouble to separate it and do my own). Now, it's "you can't at least put it in my closet?! Look at this, wrinkles, dog hair! Does this look professional to you??" She goes on, "You know, you have been awfully focused on yourself lately. I'm sick of your condescending comments and rude tone. Your productivity needs to go way up." Ensuing rant about how she is the one going to work supporting the household while I get to lollygag around and then have the audacity to not wait on her hand and foot, why don't I just really speak my mind and say what I want to say and she will right back (?), etc. Just throwing everything she can think of, essentially making me the bad guy. An awful tantrum and it was all I could do to keep my cool. I didn't really have a good response, I sort of went into 'turtle' mode and just tried to make it out alive without stooping to her level and causing further damage. I still have a lot of work to do if this is what it's going to be like. I really don't want my home life to become miserable, but I'll do whatever it takes.

The good takeaway that I'm holding onto is that she has very clearly noticed my changes and me standing up to her more. At least this is proof I have made real steps in the right direction.
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I definitely understand the dynamic you are describing--she paints me as the bad guy so I jump to do things for her and prove her wrong. But I got a little confused by what you said should be my response. You said I should agree with her? You also said she can't make me feel like the bad guy unless I agree with her. Sorry, I may be slow today. I'm clear though about how I shouldn't be trying to prove her wrong.


I looked back at my post and see how it must have been confusing. Maybe I should just scratch that part about her not making you feel like the bad guy unless you agree with her. I know what I was trying to say.....but made a mess of it.

If a stranger passed by and told you that your eyes are purple, would you shrug it off, maybe even have a chuckle about it........or would you get down in the dumps and think, "He thinks I have purple eyes. I know I don't, but he sees me in that way, and it upsets me. What can I do to convince him otherwise". Would you go buy colored contact lens, or try to verbally convince the stranger differently, or get a report from the eye specialist to verify your eyes aren't really purple? No......if anything you would be amused, instead of letting it get next to you. You might say something like, "Yeah, I get my eyes after my mother" (as you bat your lashes). You know the truth and the only way this could upset you is to care too much what the stranger thinks of your eyes. By caring too much, it causes you to doubt yourself, become defensive, paranoid, have an excessive need to convince the other person it's not true, etc.

In the case with your WW, I didn't mean seriously agree. Like hang your head and admit it, or agreeing to appease her. Use a comeback response where it kind of sounds like the words are agreeing with the W....but your tone and expression are sounding as if you find the whole thing to be a little amusing. Not every time, but in some instances where she is being so childish. Stay nonchalant, and if you can sound as if you find humor in it.........then give a soft laugh or a little smile. You are not seriously agreeing with her.

W: "You are so rude and inconsiderate"!
H: "That's me! Mr. Rude & Inconsiderate".

See how that sounds? You are not arguing, explaining, being defensive, going silent, or any of that stuff. You keep your tone of voice light. Here's the thing. You have verbally agreed, in an odd kind of way. But she knows you are not taking her jab seriously. She can't hurt you by saying negative things about you, b/c you will turn it around and sound as if you are agreeing......and you seem fine with it. Trust me, it will stop her from taking those jabs, b/c she doesn't get the desired results from you. Yes, it will probably make her angry......but who cares? Not you! Your WW wants you to jump through hoops and act like a trained poodle.......but it's not going to work.

Does that clarify things any better? If not, then maybe just forget it and I'll think of something else. I thought maybe your personality would lean this direction, but if I'm wrong, just speak up and tell me. BTW, nonchalant is not an excuse to not address her behavior. It's a different way of addressing it.

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Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Have you ever wondered why girls went after the "bad boy" type of guys? Well, I don't want to get into it right now, but I garantee you a bad boy would not bring her something to drink or take something upstairs to her.........and she would nearly worship him. There's a lesson there that all men with NGS should learn.


Yes, many times. I know that it's true, but I could never really wrap my head around the logic of it. However, data is data, and you are right I think there's a valuable lesson there


There is some misconception in girls being attracted to bad boys. Normal women do not want to have a bad person for a H. What attracts women to the bad boy image is his self confidence. He isn't a mama's boy. He doesn't let Mama or any other chick run his life. He thinks for himself, and if his woman gets a little bossy, shows a sense of self entitlement, nags, or any other unattractive quality......he tells her to get lost. He is not subservient or submissive. He is an alpha male and he always dominates his woman.......and that's why there are no issues with him not getting enough sex. He knows the difference in dominating and domineering.

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Yes, she was on her interrogation kick again, mostly seeming paranoid I was going with some girl (it really doesn't make any sense to me why she should care, especially to a manic extent).


Stop it. It makes perfect sense to me. She is not paranoid or manic! Stop making excuses for her. She is wayward. I told you she would do this. B/c she's cheating, she is going to suspect your sudden interest in GAL is for the same purpose. That's why I told you to secure your IPad, b/c she is going to search nigh and low to see what you are doing. Here the thing. Let her be jealous, and wonder if there is someone else. Not that I am trying to get you to be cruel, but this is what she needs in order to shake her and make her realize she could lose you. This is a distraction from her OM. Don't pretend there is another woman, or try to make her jealous.......but neither should you take interrogation. OMG, she takes you for granted, can't you see it? The WW doesn't want her H, but she doesn't want anyone else having him. Just keep doing your thing. Don't lie, but don't give her solid answers. She doesn't get to interrogate you. I hope you chose this opportunity to use, "I'm not the one in the military". You can always hold up hand in the "stop" position and say, "I am not going to be interrogated". And just ignore the rest of her questions.

I would have a very hard time keeping my mouth closed at her passive-agressive remarks to the dogs in the mornings! But, I suppose ignoring it is best, for now. My gosh, this woman is making me want to throw up! Surely I wasn't that disgusting! smirk
I've always been pretty direct, so I don't think there is much passive-agressive junk in me. Please tell me you did not fix her a packed lunch.

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She not-so-subtly declares she fed the dogs and let them out (which is her job in the mornings and always has been; I do evenings). Somehow, she thinks this means I owe her something. I just say "cool, thanks."


If it is her job......then stop saying "cool" and stop thanking her for doing her job. Once she starts acting like a grown up, then you can say more......maybe, IDK. For now, just say, "Okay". Just b/c she acts as if she's doing you a big favor, doesn't mean you should act as if she's doing you a big favor, too. Drop the NGS stuff.

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A week ago, she was telling me I didn't need to fold her laundry, to which I lightheartedly said 'O don't worry, I wasn't going to


Great response!

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. (But I will still wash it, because laundry has always been my job and frankly it's more trouble to separate it and do my own)


This is a load of cr@p. It is your NGS talking. Do they have a Walmart store where you live? You can purchase a blue barracks bag type of laundry bag for about $5 or $6. Or you can use a large trash bag or a plastic tub to set in "her" bedroom for "her" dirty clothes. I mean, what's the difference in sorting dirty clothes or clean clothes? If you are washing them all together, but leaving her clean clothes in the laundry room........you are still sorting at some point, aren't you? I think it would fix Miss Fancy Britches up right nicely let her do [b]all of her own laundry.

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An awful tantrum and it was all I could do to keep my cool. I didn't really have a good response, I sort of went into 'turtle' mode and just tried to make it out alive without stooping to her level


Yeah, it's all I can do to keep my cool with you, too! Wasn't it you I warned about these excuses of taking the higher ground....be the bigger person, nice-guy b.s.? "It was all you could do to keep your cool" is a lie. You were scared sh'tless.

You know, if you weren't so scared of her leaving, and if you'd really lose your cool when she acted this way, she might stop kicking you in the face every day! All you could do to keep your cool.........my a$$. tired Ignoring her passive-aggressive remarks to the dogs is one thing. But this tantrum she threw, screams of self entitlement, and it was directed straight at you. If there was EVER a time you should have stood up to her.....it was at that moment. She thinks b/c she brings home the paycheck, you are worthless and she is entitled to be waited on hand & foot. And, you ran back into your turtle shell, so expect more of the same to come.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you won't be able to use lighthearted comebacks. Not after this episode. It may be too late for anything that hints of a lighter note.

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I still have a lot of work to do if this is what it's going to be like.


Well, this is what it's going to be like.......and not standing up to her, just set you back. So get ready!

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I really don't want my home life to become miserable, but I'll do whatever it takes.


I like you, but I'm not your mama, and I will tell you how it is.......not how you want to hear it is. It's time you put on your man pants, and accept that things are going to get worse. Maybe you M a she-devil, but you certainly have done your part in making her feel so self entitled. Now, you've got to set it straight.....or get out. You haven't known misery, yet.
Originally Posted By: sandi2

If a stranger passed by and told you that your eyes are purple, would you shrug it off, maybe even have a chuckle about it........or would you get down in the dumps and think, "He thinks I have purple eyes. I know I don't, but he sees me in that way, and it upsets me. What can I do to convince him otherwise". Would you go buy colored contact lens, or try to verbally convince the stranger differently, or get a report from the eye specialist to verify your eyes aren't really purple? No......if anything you would be amused, instead of letting it get next to you. You might say something like, "Yeah, I get my eyes after my mother" (as you bat your lashes). You know the truth and the only way this could upset you is to care too much what the stranger thinks of your eyes. By caring too much, it causes you to doubt yourself, become defensive, paranoid, have an excessive need to convince the other person it's not true, etc.


I love this. What a perfect analogy, what you meant is crystal clear now.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
In the case with your WW, I didn't mean seriously agree. Like hang your head and admit it, or agreeing to appease her. Use a comeback response where it kind of sounds like the words are agreeing with the W....but your tone and expression are sounding as if you find the whole thing to be a little amusing. Not every time, but in some instances where she is being so childish. Stay nonchalant, and if you can sound as if you find humor in it.........then give a soft laugh or a little smile. You are not seriously agreeing with her.

W: "You are so rude and inconsiderate"!
H: "That's me! Mr. Rude & Inconsiderate".

See how that sounds? You are not arguing, explaining, being defensive, going silent, or any of that stuff. You keep your tone of voice light. Here's the thing. You have verbally agreed, in an odd kind of way. But she knows you are not taking her jab seriously. She can't hurt you by saying negative things about you, b/c you will turn it around and sound as if you are agreeing......and you seem fine with it. Trust me, it will stop her from taking those jabs, b/c she doesn't get the desired results from you. Yes, it will probably make her angry......but who cares? Not you! Your WW wants you to jump through hoops and act like a trained poodle.......but it's not going to work.


This all makes complete sense. I can definitely do this.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Does that clarify things any better? If not, then maybe just forget it and I'll think of something else. I thought maybe your personality would lean this direction, but if I'm wrong, just speak up and tell me. BTW, nonchalant is not an excuse to not address her behavior. It's a different way of addressing it.


Yes it does. No, you were right, this does fit my personality. This approach is great for when she makes her extremely childish jabs, and like you said as long as I use it appropriately and don't overuse it, I think it will work well. Now, I need to figure out how I will respond when she is more serious and in full on attack mode because I don't think the nonchalant bit will work then. But I'll come back to this point in a minute.

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There is some misconception in girls being attracted to bad boys. Normal women do not want to have a bad person for a H. What attracts women to the bad boy image is his self confidence. He isn't a mama's boy. He doesn't let Mama or any other chick run his life. He thinks for himself, and if his woman gets a little bossy, shows a sense of self entitlement, nags, or any other unattractive quality......he tells her to get lost. He is not subservient or submissive. He is an alpha male and he always dominates his woman.......and that's why there are no issues with him not getting enough sex. He knows the difference in dominating and domineering.


Ah, you have explained this perfectly. It's the traits (confidence, assertiveness) that are often found in "bad boys" that they want, not so much the actual 'bad' part.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Stop it. It makes perfect sense to me. She is not paranoid or manic! Stop making excuses for her. She is wayward. I told you she would do this. B/c she's cheating, she is going to suspect your sudden interest in GAL is for the same purpose. That's why I told you to secure your IPad, b/c she is going to search nigh and low to see what you are doing. Here the thing. Let her be jealous, and wonder if there is someone else. Not that I am trying to get you to be cruel, but this is what she needs in order to shake her and make her realize she could lose you. This is a distraction from her OM. Don't pretend there is another woman, or try to make her jealous.......but neither should you take interrogation. OMG, she takes you for granted, can't you see it? The WW doesn't want her H, but she doesn't want anyone else having him. Just keep doing your thing. Don't lie, but don't give her solid answers. She doesn't get to interrogate you. I hope you chose this opportunity to use, "I'm not the one in the military". You can always hold up hand in the "stop" position and say, "I am not going to be interrogated". And just ignore the rest of her questions.


You are right, Sandi. If I'm being honest, it makes perfect sense to me too. It's so nice to have someone to slap me upside the head when I lose my smarts. Seriously, I need it. I can see it--she absolutely takes me for granted, plain and simple. I won't allow the interrogation and I will let her wonder.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I would have a very hard time keeping my mouth closed at her passive-agressive remarks to the dogs in the mornings! But, I suppose ignoring it is best, for now. My gosh, this woman is making me want to throw up! Surely I wasn't that disgusting! smirk
I've always been pretty direct, so I don't think there is much passive-agressive junk in me. Please tell me you did not fix her a packed lunch.


It is pretty amazing (in a bad way). It's like all her flaws have been amplified 10x. The positive side is it is making it a lot easier for me to not care what she thinks and, honestly, be a lot less sure about wanting her back. Right now, this is a good thing for me. No, I definitely did not pack her lunch, or care when she tried to give me hell for it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
If it is her job......then stop saying "cool" and stop thanking her for doing her job. Once she starts acting like a grown up, then you can say more......maybe, IDK. For now, just say, "Okay". Just b/c she acts as if she's doing you a big favor, doesn't mean you should act as if she's doing you a big favor, too. Drop the NGS stuff.


Got it.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
This is a load of cr@p. It is your NGS talking. Do they have a Walmart store where you live? You can purchase a blue barracks bag type of laundry bag for about $5 or $6. Or you can use a large trash bag or a plastic tub to set in "her" bedroom for "her" dirty clothes. I mean, what's the difference in sorting dirty clothes or clean clothes? If you are washing them all together, but leaving her clean clothes in the laundry room........you are still sorting at some point, aren't you? I think it would fix Miss Fancy Britches up right nicely let her do [b]all of her own laundry.


Totally fair, and yes the sorting becomes an issue either way. We don't have Walmart, but I'm sure I can get a bag. In fact, we have a lot of hampers and baskets. I actually ended up telling her I am going to stop doing her laundry this morning, but more on that later.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Yeah, it's all I can do to keep my cool with you, too! Wasn't it you I warned about these excuses of taking the higher ground....be the bigger person, nice-guy b.s.? "It was all you could do to keep your cool" is a lie. You were scared sh'tless.

You know, if you weren't so scared of her leaving, and if you'd really lose your cool when she acted this way, she might stop kicking you in the face every day! All you could do to keep your cool.........my a$$. tired Ignoring her passive-aggressive remarks to the dogs is one thing. But this tantrum she threw, screams of self entitlement, and it was directed straight at you. If there was EVER a time you should have stood up to her.....it was at that moment. She thinks b/c she brings home the paycheck, you are worthless and she is entitled to be waited on hand & foot. And, you ran back into your turtle shell, so expect more of the same to come.

Maybe I was wrong. Maybe you won't be able to use lighthearted comebacks. Not after this episode. It may be too late for anything that hints of a lighter note.


So, back the lighthearted comebacks issue. I do think there is a time and place where they are very useful and I can use them. But during these full on tantrums, not so much. Are you saying it's okay for me to lose my cool? You are right, I was scared sh'tless. But, not only because of her attack, I was also totally in fear of doing/saying the wrong thing. I didn't want to launch into an over-explainer speech. I didn't want to yell back. So I froze and did very little. I'm not afraid to make her mad, clearly she already is. I just want to make sure that if I jump in the ring with her, I put her in her place and walk out with the upper-hand. When she comes at me with all her "Must be nice to not have to go to work" B.S., my instinct is going to be to explain to her why her argument is full of holes. I am a debater. I don't think this is the right approach here and I don't want to start arguing with her lack of logic. Her attacks are very predictable, I just need to plan exactly how I will respond and there will be no more 'turtling'.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
Well, this is what it's going to be like.......and not standing up to her, just set you back. So get ready!


Ugh, I know. Don't worry, I'm about to get plenty more chances.

Originally Posted By: Sandi2
I like you, but I'm not your mama, and I will tell you how it is.......not how you want to hear it is. It's time you put on your man pants, and accept that things are going to get worse. Maybe you M a she-devil, but you certainly have done your part in making her feel so self entitled. Now, you've got to set it straight.....or get out. You haven't known misery, yet.


Not gonna lie, this scares me. But, that's okay. If this is the course it needs to take, I'm ready. When I first started learning what to do after BD, I think I got the impression that I wanted to avoid fighting with W at all costs. We weren't at a place where we hated each other and that was a good thing. But, in my case, I have created a monster. I don't think she is truly a she-devil--or least she wasn't when I married her--and I fully acknowledge my part in making her so self-absorbed and entitled. So, I guess it has to get ugly before it gets better, is that what you're saying?

Back to the part where I said I told her she can do her own laundry. She is currently working 12 hour shifts and doesn't get home til midnight. So, I didn't have to deal with her much last night. When she did come home, she was friendly. I do have to say, we used to fight like this a lot, before we learned how to communicate a lot better and she gained a lot more self-control over her temper. Back then, she could hold a grudge for eternity. Now at least, she seems to get over it pretty quickly. Anyway, this morning started out fine, but went downhill right before she left for work.

She started into her bit about how she's working 12 hours and I don't care to help. Complained about her laundry again. Said something like if I can't do it properly and keep it from getting wrinkled and hairy, then she will do it. Ah, perfect! I told her, good idea. I will stop doing your laundry from now on. This only made her angrier. Eventually, she said "This is going to turn bad, I know it." Referring to us living together.

Here's my problem. I feel like sitting her down and telling her she needs to knock off all the complaining and passive-aggression. We can have an agreed upon set of expectations for what I do as support since she is the one working and I have more time. I will make it clear she cannot expect this to include personal favors.

The problem is this is talking and explaining. I'm supposed to be showing her what she can expect by just not doing things that I shouldn't, right? I just hate this stupid dance where she tries to act like I'm failing and "holding something over her head". That's always been her favorite card to play. She can make it seem like anyone is holding anything over her head. If I'm refusing to do things for her anymore, it's because I'm holding the fact that she wants out of our marriage over her head. Really? Don't worry, I know that is her twisting things with all her might. Anyway, if the dance is necessary, I can suck it up and keep going. But, I just feel like there is a way I can stand up and put a stop to it.
Okay, I am getting a better picture of your personality. Which means, my original gut feeling was on track. cool

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So, back the lighthearted comebacks issue. I do think there is a time and place where they are very useful and I can use them. But during these full on tantrums, not so much. Are you saying it's okay for me to lose my cool? You are right, I was scared sh'tless. But, not only because of her attack, I was also totally in fear of doing/saying the wrong thing. I didn't want to launch into an over-explainer speech
.

Having a sense of timing, is important when using lighthearted comebacks.....else you'll just look stupid. Actually, you are sending a strong message, but doing it in a way that if she makes a scene, it makes her look very foolish and childish. The objective is for her to stop the self entitlement behavior and start respecting her H as a man who is not solely dependent on her or her paycheck. Perhaps I didn't word that correctly. I don't mean that you are trying to control her, but it is your way of handling the situation, without defensive type over-explanations, and without over accommodation.

The lighthearted comebacks are to be used at a different time than when she assaults you with these tantrums. And, should she suddenly go into a tantrum when you've used a comeback remark.....then immediately switch into serious mode.

I think the next time she refers to bringing home the paycheck, you need to immediately address it.

You: "Let me make something perfectly clear. Just b/c you currently bring home the paycheck, does not mean I work for you!"

I can think of so much more to add, but I'm sure you can, as well. However, you are trying to minimize your words, so make them count.

When I referred to losing your cool, I meant that you've spent so much time & energy catering to her and trying to have a happy W that she never sees you angry. There is such a thing as being too laid back. She has trampled over you and she sees you take cover. I use to do the same thing with my H. He would not get in my face and tell me off. He just wouldn't do anything........so, I treated him worse, and worse. It's as if a woman will keep pushing to see how much a man will take before he finally gets enough to fight back. BTW, my H doesn't let me speak to him in that disrespectful manner anymore.

Respond in an authoritoritive manner. If you are sitting down at the time she starts bashing, then stand up (not threatening, but not retreating). Stand as tall and straight as you can. (Practice this when she's not home, and practice different scenarios and your responses). Don't shout at her, but use a strong, manly tone of voice. You may not be in the military, but this is your domain, so speak with a tone & volume level that shows that you are in charge. The objective here is not to make her happy. Forget her happiness. That will fall into place, once you start acting like the man she needs. I know you can't see it, but her actions are begging for you to stand up to her and show her you have b@lls.

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Not gonna lie, this scares me. But, that's okay. If this is the course it needs to take, I'm ready. When I first started learning what to do after BD, I think I got the impression that I wanted to avoid fighting with W at all costs. We weren't at a place where we hated each other and that was a good thing. But, in my case, I have created a monster. I don't think she is truly a she-devil--or least she wasn't when I married her--and I fully acknowledge my part in making her so self-absorbed and entitled. So, I guess it has to get ugly before it gets better, is that what you're saying?


Yes, that's what I am saying. I really do 't think she is a she-devil, either. I think she is immature. It's serious enough, but I see you having the potential to turn this MR around and set it up right. It will get worse before getting better, b/c of the degree of her contempt for you. She doesn't see you as a man. She does not desire you as a man. At best, she treats you like a gay best friend. At worst, you are no more than a lowly servant who waits hand & foot on her, for your room & board. She will have to see your b@lls in action, before she sees you as the man she needs, and before her sexual desire for you rises. If you get her respect, the desire will follow.

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No, I definitely did not pack her lunch, or care when she tried to give me hell for it.


Good......just stop taking her hell for it. See, here's how she sees this type of action from you: She b'tches about being late and you won't even help by fixing her lunch......and she is obviously making all of this your fault (being late for work). If you are just sitting around doing nothing particularlly important, she sees you as some lazy slug she is supporting. It causes more comptempt within her. Whether right or wrong, she feels it is your job to help her get to work, with the professional attire and lunch bag. Of course, it's not your job, but this is who you've help to create. How did she ever get through basic training without your help? She knows how to be responsible, but she feels these jobs in helping her are your obligation to her. She is making all of her morning frustrations your fault, b/c you haven't taken care of her properly.

Does she set her alarm clock to wake at a certain time every morning? Does she repeatily hit the snooze button? Bless her heart........it must be hard to roll out of bed, after being up most of the night messaging. smirk.

What does she see in you, when first arising? Is your hair standing up in every direction, unshaven, not dressed? I'm not saying to be dressed in a suit & tie, but when a woman already has contemp for the guy.......these little things work against him a lot. So, set your alarm to get you up ahead of her, wash, shave, comb hair, put on jeans & shirt. If she thinks you are a worthless bum.......at least you won't look the part. wink. (jk)

Another question..........when the two of you eat a meal, do you sit at the table together, or fix your plate and eat at the kitchen bar? Do you eat at separate times?

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I just want to make sure that if I jump in the ring with her, I put her in her place and walk out with the upper-hand. When she comes at me with all her "Must be nice to not have to go to work" B.S., my instinct is going to be to explain to her why her argument is full of holes. I am a debater. I don't think this is the right approach here and I don't want to start arguing with her lack of logic. Her attacks are very predictable, I just need to plan exactly how I will respond and there will be no more 'turtling'.


I agree. You are at the stage I see a lot of newcomer H's afraid of making the incorrect move or saying the wrong thing. And, we are usually guilty of telling him everything he said wrong. However, it is with the purpose of him learning what to say, or not say, if it happens again, etc. I don't want you freezing up, wondering about some catch phrase that might work. When she's pitching a fit.......catch phrases don't usually work. Sometimes, if a WW is just sounding so childish, a H might say, "Feel all better now?". But usually, a comeback remark will fuel her anger. Some people advise that the H start shushing her, trying to calm her down. I don't like that approach, b/c I am a head on collision type. grin Seriously though, it's difficult to describe in a post some kind of one size fits all response, b/c you can't always react the same. Use wise judgement, in spite of what I or anyone else tells you how to respond to her angry tantrums. In my gut, I think she would back down if you stand up to her, but I'm not there watching the scene. She has been trained to respond respectfully to authority in the military. Based on what she told you about "taking some authority", I feel she is not just challenging you.......but needs to see you responding like a man who commands respects from others.

As far as loosing your cool, of course I don't recommend anything that hints of domestic violence. I don't think there is anything wrong when a man gives his b'tchy W a piece of his mind and walks out the door without telling her squat of his intentions. He could even walk out without giving a piece of his mind.......if he does it in a strong statement-making manner. smile. He doesn't want to appear as if he is running to take shelter, but rather, that he has had it with this woman!

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Back to the part where I said I told her she can do her own laundry. She is currently working 12 hour shifts and doesn't get home til midnight.


Those are long shifts. Make sure you have the house clean (stay out of her bedroom) and keep food in the house. When she's working these long shifts, keep something cooked that is easy to warm in the microwave. I'm not saying to wait hand & foot on her. There is a difference in being considerate, and over-accommodating. She is a disrespectful, spoiled, self entitled, WW. If you keep the house and yard maintained, and there is food in the kitchen that's pretty easy to prepare.......I would see it considerate, from the woman's point of view. I think you should do all of the laundry, except her clothes. It's not like she has to draw water to boil and use a scrub board and then hang them on the line to dry. smirk The only things you won't be doing (work wise) are her room, and her clothes. Right? Am I missing something? When you cook, make enough to have leftovers......but you don't have to fix her plate and serve her. Not while she's acting so bossy and self entitled.

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Here's my problem. I feel like sitting her down and telling her she needs to knock off all the complaining and passive-aggression. We can have an agreed upon set of expectations for what I do as support since she is the one working and I have more time. I will make it clear she cannot expect this to include personal favors


Did she say she wanted in-house separation......or is this just in your signature to clarify the M status?

You: "We need to lay down some ground rules. When you are working 12 hrs, I don't mind having something prepared for dinner. (Say it this way, so you can still be gone GAL when/if she comes home). When you get ready to eat, all you'll have to do is fix your plate.....maybe reheat it. But, I'm not waiting hand & foot on you.......and I'm not doing your room or your laundry". Bringing home the paycheck does not mean I work for you........or that I'm responsible for you getting to work on time, how you look, or if you have any lunch packed".

I agree that this needs to be said. I am trying to keep any cattiness out of it. (It's hard, though). Say it with all the self confidence and determination you can muster. Not preachy, not like a speech, not wimpy. Say it quickly, but firmly. If she starts yelling or gets too b'tchy or out of hand.....walk out on her and leave the house! Don't stand there while she attacks you. If she can talk calmly, listen......but don't get into a long R talk. Expect her to pull out various cards to play (victim, guilt, control, pity party, blame, entitlement, tears and lots of threats). Stand your ground, no explaining, and don't wimp out.
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