Hi everyone. A little background on me and my sitch.
I was a poster here 3 years ago. W and I R after 8 months of S, and bought a house together. While we were S, I read DB, did IC, lots of GAL and had a genuine shift in my views and the way I handled daily interactions with W.
My W has been a heavy and daily drinker for the last 5 years. After we R, I noticed that her drinking was increasing and would dodge bullets daily to try and stay out of the line of fire. 4 months after R, I begged her to go to rehab because I was genuinely worried about her health. She said she would go, but never did, and later stated that she did not have a problem and that I just needed to deal with her drinking.
Fast forward to 2018. BD was after the beginning of the year. She stated that she wanted a D and wanted to sell our home. We are still living under the same roof, only communicating when she initiates. About once a week, she will drink heavily with her friends and then wants to initiate a talk, which ends up being a 3 hour rage from her about all I've done wrong in the 11 years that we have been together. I validate when I can, and listen the rest of the time. There is a lot of history re-written during these times.
I have suggested MC, but have been told no, that she will never go see a counselor. So, I find myself here again, reading the forums and all of the other posts, trying to get some clarity on the situation that I once again have found myself in.
My MIL/FIL are living here temporarily. Our last S was due to my MIL giving her an ultimatum. She has once again convinced my W that a D is in order.
We argue mostly about the daily heavy drinking, and my W says that is her main reason for wanting a D. Her and her family do not think that she has a problem, and my MIL tells her that I am controlling when I want her to moderate her drinking so that she doesn't treat me badly when she drinks too much. She says that she is unhappy and knows that we will never be able to fix our M.
Thanks everyone for reading.
M: 49 W: 46
T: 11 M: 10
SD: 25 S: 17
I'm just sitting here wondering WHY you reconciled with an active alcoholic who showed no willingness to go into treatment? And you have a teenage son watching this?
Sounds to me like you need to get to Al Anon meetings.
Looks like your last thread is put away off the board, I can move it back if you want it
When you S it will be clear who has the issue.
MrBond once said to me, let the G go down alone. Stop enabling.
I pass on that advice, let WW fall and save yourself and your S17.
V
Cadet: It probably is mostly a repeat of this thread, just different dates. I'll just continue with this one. Thanks.
kml: I have been looking for an Al Anon meeting in our area. I might have to do the online route if I can't find one that works with my works schedule. Thanks for the advice. I "hoped" that the alcohol demon was beaten, but, it is back and worse than ever. She tried moderating instead of rehab, and that was short lived. I cannot control or cure her alcoholism, so I need to step away.
Vanilla: Thanks for the advice! I am actively working on stepping away.
This time around, DB will do more to help me work on my issues and help me get through what is certain to be a nasty D. I hate that I have lost my W to alcohol, but I must take steps to save myself and my S17. It is just so hard to let go of that hope that she will get help.
If you were "Bob", then I remember part of your situation, but I don't recall the reconciliation. Had you left the board before reconciling?
Hi sandi,
I am not Bob, but I did post quite a bit on his threads. I did leave the board before reconciliation, I believe.
Okay, I was just trying to find your original thread.
WBM, I guess you know your W is an alcoholic, I'm wondering why you didn't use that word, perhaps you are in denial? But it seems pretty clear that she is, and as such, this isn't a simple matter of toning things down or "moderating" her drinking as you put it. She needs help, and she doesn't want it. She's got to hit rock bottom before she may be willing to change, and unfortunately that will probably mean ending the M. Protect yourself and your kids. Talk to a lawyer about your options.
About once a week, she will drink heavily with her friends and then wants to initiate a talk, which ends up being a 3 hour rage from her about all I've done wrong in the 11 years that we have been together. I validate when I can, and listen the rest of the time. There is a lot of history re-written during these times.
I would end these convos ASAP. If she tries it again then just tell her you're not interested and walk away.
I have suggested MC, but have been told no, that she will never go see a counselor. So, I find myself here again, reading the forums and all of the other posts, trying to get some clarity on the situation that I once again have found myself in.
First you need to realize you don't have a WAS on your hands, you have an addict. You can't fix that (or your M) with DB'ing. Second you need to realize that you are a VICTIM in this situation. You need to detach to keep her from dragging you down with her.
Her and her family do not think that she has a problem
They are enabling her, which unfortunately is quite common in addictions.
I have been looking for an Al Anon meeting in our area. I might have to do the online route if I can't find one that works with my works schedule.
Find a way to make it happen. You need it far more than you realize.
I hate that I have lost my W to alcohol, but I must take steps to save myself and my S17. It is just so hard to let go of that hope that she will get help.
You are exactly right. And you can detach and protect yourself while still maintaining hope. There's no quick solution here, but long term she WILL at some point hit rock bottom and hopefully seek out help, after that you may very well see a recon opportunity.
AnotherStander: Thank you for the response and advice. I have many times talked to my W about her alcoholism and the effect that it has on me and our family. She refuses to admit that she has a problem, instead saying that I am the only one that has a problem with the drinking, and says that she is not an alcoholic.
There have been no late night rages for a few weeks. I have been detaching and letting her be. It is so heartbreaking to watch someone that you love so much self destruct before your eyes.
We still live in the same house, but rarely speak anymore unless it involves the house or the kids.
I am still seeking an Al-Anon meeting that fits my schedule. I know that it will help me tremendously. I am involved on another forum that deals with family members of alcoholics also. That has helped me gain clarity that the alcoholism isn't my fault, that I can't control it, nor can I cure it. I have held out hope that she will hit rock bottom for years. I guess my own rock bottom is within view, finally.
AnotherStander nailed it. I don't think you win against a bottle, unfortunately.
Maybe losing her family will wake her up. Even if your MiL is an enabler.
I didn't say it before, but very sorry you find yourself back here, and also I'm really sorry you are going through this with your W.
I've had to contend with two different alcoholic family members and it is just plain miserable. I think the biggest obstacle to overcome is just understanding that THEY are the problem and not us. It's their life-choices that put them in that position, and their stubborn pride that prevents them from seeing what they are doing to themselves and all those around them. Throw in a few enablers and it's the perfect recipe for making those who are just trying to help feel like they are the guilty party.
She refuses to admit that she has a problem, instead saying that I am the only one that has a problem with the drinking, and says that she is not an alcoholic.
Yes, denial is a symptom of alcoholism and is an overt sign that she has not bottomed out. There are a lot of resources on the Internet, here's a blurb from one of them:
Denial is a major barrier in the way of overcoming alcoholism or drug addiction– an absolutely essential first step is for the person to actually accept that at least they might have a problem. If the person you are concerned about does not admit that they might have a problem (in professional terms this is called Pre-Contemplation), you are facing an, almost, impossible task . If they are able to reach this conclusion, then they may become amenable to speaking to a professional in confidence. If they remain convinced there is no problem, then it is highly unlikely that they will wish to speak to anyone– after all, what would be the point?
The truth of the matter is, you have very little verbal control over a user. Things that you say will have very little control over them, even if they are sober when you say it to them.
Again I'll say you can't fix her, and any attempts you make will just damage your relationship further. First she has to bottom out and realize she has a problem.
It is so heartbreaking to watch someone that you love so much self destruct before your eyes.
Believe me, I hear you! It's horrible. But you have reached the point where you have to make a choice- walk away or get dragged down with her. I'm sorry but there is no middle ground where she can moderate her drinking and things will get better.
I am involved on another forum that deals with family members of alcoholics also. That has helped me gain clarity that the alcoholism isn't my fault, that I can't control it, nor can I cure it.
Oh good, you didn't mention that before but I'm glad to hear you've found some support to give you clarity!
I have held out hope that she will hit rock bottom for years. I guess my own rock bottom is within view, finally.
I think you have to hit your "bottom" which will basically be a refusal to tolerate this further before she can start feeling loss and possibly hit her bottom. You need to be the strong one, especially for your kids. Luckily they are older so their exposure in becoming victims to your W is not as great as if they were children.
Steve85 and AnotherStander:
Thanks for the replies and the advice. Moderation has been tried before and there was minimal, short term success. I believe that it was more "white knuckling" than any true effort at recovery though. It saddens me to know that I have been replaced by the bottle, and that it is more important than our family.
Steve85 and AnotherStander:
Thanks for the replies and the advice. Moderation has been tried before and there was minimal, short term success. I believe that it was more "white knuckling" than any true effort at recovery though. It saddens me to know that I have been replaced by the bottle, and that it is more important than our family.
When I was drinking, nothing would stop me from getting my fix. I spent more money on it than anything else. The whole time I was at work I was thinking about what I was going to get, where I was going to get it, how I was going to consume it. It took over every part of my life.
I didn't plan anything that didn't involve drinking. There are so many sporting events, concerts, parties, get-togethers, dinners, and other events that I just flat out can't remember.
I remember one night 2 buddies and I went to a NBA game. Over the course of the evening I consumed an entire 1/5th of Jack Daniels.
I woke up at my buddy's house, didn't know how I got there. My pants were ripped wide open up my right leg from my knee. My knee was bloody. (I had fallen, ripped my jeans at the knee, then later grabbed the ripped and ripped them further all the way up. I was on his couch, and on the coffee table in front of me he had left a big glass of water, and the empty fifth bottle.
No telling how much money I spent that night and couldn't remember a single moment other than sitting in the back of the vehicle on the way there pounding drinks.
You're right, to an alcoholic there is no such thing as moderation. If she isn't ready to give it up then she isn't ready for recovery. I had some major embarrassments that finally woke me up to my problem. 24 years sober now and I don't miss it.
Thank you Steve85 for sharing some insight from the other side. I am happy to hear that you have embraced sobriety for 24 years!
She has shown small acknowledgements in the recent past that she has a bad relationship with alcohol and has wanted to seek some help. I listened, and gave encouragement during these times. BUT, when she discussed with her family members, they all told her that she didn't have a problem with alcohol, and was crazy to think that she did. These are the same people that have come to me, one by one, and expressed their deep concern about her heavy drinking.
I have been fighting against the addiction demon in her, in addition to the dysfunctional family dynamic, in addition to our own marital issues. It feels like this will be a no win for our M.
I wanted to give an update and ask for some advice. I found out yesterday that my W has been recently talking to an ex from her teen years. I have not confronted her yet, but intend to ask about this new information and what it means. He has called her several times, always while I have been sleeping or working.
We have been getting along much better since my last post. I have been keeping to my own side of the street, and we have had very few R discussions. The ones that we have had were productive, although she says that she still wants to D and sell our home. She has not filed for D yet. The strangest thing is, she has not worn her wedding ring or any ring on her left ring finger since BD. Last week, she started wearing a ring that I gave to her after our first R on her left ring finger. I thought this was a positive sign. But now, after finding evidence of a rekindled old flame, I don't know what to think about it.
I am still searching for an alanon meeting that fits my schedule. The drinking continues, but, there hasn't been any additional verbal tantrums recently.
I wanted to add that, I read all of the threads on here, and the advice given to everyone has helped me to cope during this time tremendously.
I have not confronted her yet, but intend to ask about this new information and what it means. He has called her several times, always while I have been sleeping or working.
Not surprising, there's always an OM, even if it's an imaginary one. There's not much point in "confronting" her, I think you are clear that as far as she is concerned the M is over. So I'm not sure what you are expecting to achieve by confronting her? That will probably just look like pressure to her.
We have been getting along much better since my last post. I have been keeping to my own side of the street, and we have had very few R discussions. The ones that we have had were productive, although she says that she still wants to D and sell our home. She has not filed for D yet.
Good, you're keeping the pressure off. That's why you're getting along better, she doesn't feel the need to keep reminding you that the M is done when you don't pressure her.
Sadly alcoholics make a choice to drink. When they drink they make poor choices too.
You may well know that an alcoholic has enablers who enjoy the control. They may also have codependents who hang on to R.
The faster the addicts falls into the black hole of rock bottom the better. To support them for years thinking that's the best thing is making the ultimate physical and mental damage much greater.
It really hurts to watch someone you love binge drink in this way. And binge drinking js very destructive to women who because of smaller livers and less muscle so they deteriorate much faster. As they deteriorate and get poorer then they dumb down and buy cheaper stronger alcohol. Their friends get more poisonous. It's a deterioration and it can be very destructive.
All you can do is observe, put down boundaries and let it go.
Remember, you didn't cause it, you can't control it and you can't cure it. Only ceasing to drink altogether for the rest of one's life will manage it, one day at a time.
V
I went on a short trip with friends last week. When I came back home, I sat and talked to W about the trip. She initiated R talk, so I listened and validated when I could. Her phone rang during the R talk, and it was the ex boyfriend. She looked at her phone and then put it down. I asked if it was him, and she said that yes it was, but that he wasn't her priority right now and that she didn't want to talk to him. She still claims that they are only friends and that she doesn't want to rekindle their old relationship. R talk lasted a while longer, ending with things that we could do to try and fix our M. She is still not sleeping in the MBR, and although has seemed "softer" since the R talk, has shown no real action. I guess maybe I am looking for any sign of things turning around.
My W has been insisting on her moving to the MBR and me moving to the spare room. She says that I am selfish and I don't care that she isn't getting much sleep. Should I move to the other room. She thinks that I am selfish, and I suppose that offering to switch bedrooms would be a 180 for me. I also think that she is testing me to see how I will respond. Do the vets or anyone have advice on this?
My W has been insisting on her moving to the MBR and me moving to the spare room. She says that I am selfish and I don't care that she isn't getting much sleep. Should I move to the other room. She thinks that I am selfish, and I suppose that offering to switch bedrooms would be a 180 for me. I also think that she is testing me to see how I will respond. Do the vets or anyone have advice on this?
You know the answer to the MBR question... Your W has been selfish in many ways... LBSs seem to care too much about what the Wayward or Walk-away spouses thinks of them...
Thanks arista. I told W that I would not be moving from the MBR, but that she was welcome to move back in. Her response? "I will never come back to the MBR because I don't want to sleep with you ever again". I am always amazed at the venom when she doesn't get her way.
Thanks arista. I told W that I would not be moving from the MBR, but that she was welcome to move back in. Her response? "I will never come back to the MBR because I don't want to sleep with you ever again". I am always amazed at the venom when she doesn't get her way.
Believe nothing they say and only half of what they do!
Thanks Steve85. I tell myself that often when she says things that just make me smh. I watch for her actions to match those words and there is usually no action taken.
Our in-house S has been ongoing since early January. Sometimes its easy, but most of the time, its hard. In fact, I catch myself wondering if she isn't DB'ing me at times.
R talk lasted a while longer, ending with things that we could do to try and fix our M.
Can you expand on that? Were these things items that you brought up or her? What were they?
I told W that I would not be moving from the MBR, but that she was welcome to move back in.
Good, exactly what you should say.
Her response? "I will never come back to the MBR because I don't want to sleep with you ever again". I am always amazed at the venom when she doesn't get her way.
Eh, don't worry about it. WAS's love to speak in absolutes. "You always...." "I never...." It's script. Means nothing in the long run.
AS - she stated that she just didn't know how to fix our R that seems too broken. I told her that I thought we could start to fix pieces at a time instead of tackling the whole thing, which seems overwhelming. I suggested that we haven't spoken each other's LL, and that had caused a lot of resentment and feelings of neglect over the years. We identified each others LL, and I have made an effort to meet hers each day since this discussion. I have the book and read it over the next few days to be sure I understood how to speak in a different language. I did a few things, which seemed to get a very positive reaction from her, but, several days later, she got angry when she saw the book out and started to spew venom again.
Fast forward one week. She is still angry and barely speaking to me. I have still been doing things each day that speak to her LL. I am resolved to being consistent. When she did decide to speak to me, it was about the MBR. She didn't get her way, and has gone cold again.
She speaks in absolutes nearly always. She also rewrites our marital history (which is very frustrating) and says that she never should've married me.
She speaks in absolutes nearly always. She also rewrites our marital history (which is very frustrating) and says that she never should've married me.
This is common. My W is doing the same thing. She has rewritten our entire history. She says she only married me because her life was terrible at the time I proposed, and she was depressed. She wasn't in love with me, but didn't want to lose me. Her whole life was awful. She then lists all the terrible things in her life from that time and says I was the only thing everyone around her thought she was doing right (note: she had no feelings for me, it's just the outside perception that was/is good about me).
This is all far from the truth, but she has taken bits and pieces of what happened and twisted them to justify her actions. You're right that it's frustrating, and at least my W can be very convincing. It had me questioning my own memories, but then I realized it was all BS. However, this is what she believes to be true, and that makes it reality to her. You cannot convince her otherwise. You can only show her your actions in the here and now, and hope the actual memories can shine through some how.
Every time that she initiates an R talk, more and more things are added for reasons that she wants a D. I find myself being blamed for the actions of others, and many times, I question my memory of the events as well. I validate when I can, but still have issue with not becoming defensive when some of it is complete BS. This is an area that I need to work on.
My W tells me that she has never been happy in our M, says that she still loves me, but doesn't want to live with me or be M any longer.
I have a question for the group: why does WAS stomp their feet and say that they want a D often, but, don't actually take the steps to file? Is this part of the "script"?
Also, she appears to be pursuing the old boyfriend really hard, but it doesn't seem like he is anything but casually receptive to it. Hoping this one sided EA runs its course. I am still GAL and 180 like crazy while this plays out.
I have a question for the group: why does WAS stomp their feet and say that they want a D often, but, don't actually take the steps to file? Is this part of the "script"?
My WW certainly did. Would take ZERO steps to get D, but told me she wanted it more than once and was very angry the first time I put it on hold.
If they are truly resolved to actually get D, they will.
If not they will just bluster and whine.
Because they need plan B to fund an A!
V
My W once told me that it was up to me to file, and then spent the next few weeks angry with me because I did not do as she wanted. Mine uses it as leverage I think. To get me to meet her demands because she knows that I don't want a D.
After the first BD, she did the same. Yelling about a D but never filed. Sometimes, esp after BD2, I feel like I am in the movie Groundhog Day.
You said your W is a "heavy daily drinker." How many drinks per day? And she drinks every single day?
ForGump: she drinks an average of 6-10 drinks a day and usually in a short span of time. Some days are more, and very few days are less. Beer mostly, although I have seen harder stuff thrown in there too. I have been GAL a lot more, so I don't see the affects of it like I used to.
Journaling: I have been GAL more than ever and just trying to stay out of her space. She rotates between being nice and nasty. She stopped me before I was leaving one night and told me that she will be filing soon. I asked her if she felt that being divorced would solve all of her problems and make her instantly happy. She responded that she will be much more happy once the divorce is final. The roller coaster ride is maddening. The rewriting of marital history is maddening. The push/pull is maddening. I need to work much, much more on detaching.
My W began packing her things and moving them out of the house today. She wants to get the house ready to sell and hopes that once it is put on the market that it will sell quickly. She doesn't have anyplace else to go right now, so we are still both living in the house. It is sad to see her things getting moved out, but the family photos and other mementos of our life together left behind. I did not react at all when I saw, I just went forward what I was doing. It hurt though.
I know that we are not supposed to believe anything that they say and only half of what they do.
WBM, are you on board with selling the house?
Steve: I am not on board with selling the house. I don't think that we have any equity in it (we have lived here for only 2 years) and we would get no return on the investment. She is pressing for the sale since she wants to D and needs the money for her new life after our M is over. She sees dollar signs, and a path to her new, happy, M free life.
My L suggested contacting banks to see if I would even qualify for a refinance of the mortgage. The mortgage is large, so it is possible that I won't qualify with my income alone.
Ok, here is my advice. Do nothing to help her. Make her do all of the work. Likely with her drinking problem she will NOT follow through on this. She will get frustrated and eventually give up.
Worst thing she could do is stop paying her share (if she is currently paying on it). Then you'll have to decide a course of action based on that.
Remember, seller has to pay the realtor's commission, that cuts into your equity too. Unless you sell it by owner, and then again put that all on her.
What broke my wife's fantasy bubble was all of the realities that were contrary to her perception of what could happen.
I haven't done anything to facilitate the sale of our home. She hasn't spoken to a realtor yet, but claims that she already has an appraisal and that we are going to get a large amount of money by selling. I have not seen the appraisal yet, and I am skeptical that there is one. She won't stop paying on the loan because she doesn't want to hurt her chances on financing another house in the future.
I have no desire to sell the house and have mentioned that to her. She tries to put pressure on me to sell the house before we D.
She wants to sell the house and wants to D, but, I see very little action to match those words. Mostly, empty threats, albeit very loud threats. She gets very angry and upset when I don't jump on board with the house sale and D plans. I don't want to stand in the way of what she wants, but I am also not going to do any of the work for her.
Thanks for the advice Steve. I am hopeful that she won't follow through on any of it. But, I am still preparing myself in case she barrels forward and files.
I am still getting a lot of hateful threats about L and D. I try not to engage when my W has been drinking, which is usually when these threats occur. As much as I am not on board with selling the house, my thoughts wander to moving out temporarily until we D. I don't want a D, but, I can't see that our sitch is getting any better. I saw some improvement months ago, but all of that seems to be circling the drain now. I still GAL as much as I can, but any attempts at validating her feelings are met with pure hostility.
Her new circle of friends party a lot and are very against us working on our M at all. She has surrounded herself with people that aren't very marriage minded, and will agree with her to keep the party going.
I smh at what my W has turned into. I don't even recognize her anymore. I saw a glimpse of my real W a few weeks ago, followed by her evil twin, and that cycled back and forth for several hours. It mad me sad. Sad to know that my real w is still in there somewhere.
I spoke with a L last week so I now have some understanding of what my rights are if we D. That put my mind at ease somewhat and made me less anxious about what a D would look like, at least from the financial side.
My W is still talking with the ex boyfriend, and she doesn't know that I know they are still talking. The feeling of betrayal at her likely being involved in an EA with an old flame is crushing. She swears they are just friends and there is nothing to worry about, but, isn't that all part of the script?
she drinks an average of 6-10 drinks a day
You can't fix that. Take care of yourself. Shop around for a good therapist and a good lawyer. Hurts like hell but you gotta get away from her. I'm sorry.
she drinks an average of 6-10 drinks a day
You can't fix that. Take care of yourself. Shop around for a good therapist and a good lawyer. Hurts like hell but you gotta get away from her. I'm sorry.
Sounds like both of you need AA, one for drinking, and one for enabling.
Since my last post, I have started IC, and also have been prescribed meds for severe depression. Both have began to give me clarity to see how our M has been very destructive on both sides for the last several years.
I am working on my own issues, and am no longer working towards recon. I have let her go and am moving forward with my life. It hurts me to know that addiction has taken away the person that I vowed to love and stand by forever, but, she is no longer that person.