Divorcebusting.com
I’ve been with my husband for 16 years, married for 5, and no children. He was laid off 2 years ago and this greatly affected him. He’s had a goal to make more and be in a higher position to stick it to his old job ever since but has not been successful. I was supportive during his time off work, and once he had found a good job (not his goal job) and was comfortable in it, I started having issues with my work. I expected the same support I gave, but received the exact opposite. Was told I had to stay in a difficult situation until I found something comparable. This hurt me more than I could imagine, and we started to become distant. The distance grew when I found a job that made me happy, while he still had not found his goal job.
This past spring a new young girl started working at his job. He’s her manager, and the “team” would frequently go out for lunches, drinks after work etc. He spoke about how great she was constantly, and even started imitating things she liked and asking her opinion about clothes, food, and other things.
Obviously this attention he was giving her upset me, and I started having anxiety and panic attacks. He couldn’t handle my reactions when he said he was constantly assuring me nothing was going on, but I would find more of the same fun flirty messages.
My anxiety was something else he couldn’t support. He got sick for a little while, had to be off work And things were good for awhile. Then he returned to work and continued on with her.
He talked about getting a divorce, because I was too much to handle. I suggested some time away from each other and we agreed to separate for a bit, because his actions were severely affecting my health. While separated he became depressed and said this wasn’t what he wanted. We agreed to have him move back home after 5 weeks. In the 2 weeks he has been home my anxiety has returned. We’ve had 3 huge blow ups due to this girl. She called to get help on work one night at 8:30pm while we were spending time together and he actually went to help her, I saw him out for lunch with her and 1 other person when he said he was taking the team to lunch, and I found wHe thought he was taking care of things, but I would still find them going out for lunches, and inappropriate messages. It was clear she wasn’t pulling back and there was nothing he could to make her respect him as a manager again.ork messages of her desperately trying to connect with him by making him laugh, begging for a phone call, and being unprofessional.

I’ve tried to do a 180 and make it seem like it doesn’t bother me... but every time I see something I can’t handle it. Every time I try to talk to him, he says I’m attacking him. And then when I don’t say anything he says I’m being distant and cold. I don’t know how to get him to understand his relationship with this girl is really affecting me. He says I’m crazy, and that nothings going on, but no employee speaks to their manager the way she’s talking to him. And he just lets her. He doesn’t say to stop, but when I want to talk or vent I get told to stop.
While we were separated things were good. I didn’t know what he was saying or doing with her, and because he was lonely and missing home he didn’t participate in being inappropriate. But now that’s he is back and home and comfortable again, I’m worried we will end up separating again.

I can’t ignore the relationship, because I feel like that would give him the ok to continue on like that.... I don’t know what else to do.
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Thank you so much for your quick response. I will definitely read through the articles and your suggestions.
I should mention that I regularly go out with friends (just dinners, shopping, etc) not drinking or late nights. This has been a source of contention with him. He feels that because I do this, he should be able to go out with his work “friends” and drink and stay out late. If I make plans without him, he gets sour and distant. Which I fear will drive him to this other girl.
I’ve started going to gym classes 3 times a week, started meditation 2 weeks ago, and have been treating myself. But when I get stressed, eating becomes a chore and I constantly feel sick.
I think the hardest part will be to detach. I was able to do it while we were separated.. but having him around is just a constant reminder of how he’s making me feel.
Thanks for your support! And I’ll definitely be reading through other posts
Ms Sarah,

I don't post here much anymore, but I still visit my people around here, and I just happened to read your post. I cannot not reply because it hits too close to home! If you know me at all, I am going to spit some truth and it may be hard to read, and you may not like it, but I am going to tell you some things that I wish I could go back and tell my old self before my situation got BAD. Very BAD.

A little background; I am married to a (now recovering) Mr Nice Guy. If you don't know what that means, read about them. Wolf in sheep's clothing is how some put it. About 8 years ago, it came to light that a female coworker was paying him a lot of attention. He was her superior and he had very poor boundaries. She would tell him her problems, ask him for support/help about work and nonwork, and she would even text him outside of work. She tried very hard. She didn't get very far because he wasn't even interested.

We still argued about her though. A lot. He didn't seem to understand that his responsibility was to create boundaries with her. And he didn't do that for several years. She could do/say whatever she wanted, but as a married man, it was his responsibility to say, "I am not comfortable talking about this now," or "please only text me about work related things during work hours," ect. Now, years later, he can see 100% what the problem was and that HE ALLOWED it. I tried in every way I knew how, for years, to get him to see this, and he did not.

So this was my first red flag that something was up with my marriage. And there were no lunches, flirty texts, or a fear of them having an A. Just my sense that he had poor boundaries with her and women in general. Forward a couple years later, and our M got hard, and life got hard, which results in another woman coming around. This time, it was someone we both knew well, and this time, he took the bait. They had an EA for a long while, we separated, and then they had a full on PA for 10 months. My life was turned upside down. Unlike many stories here, my H did come back and we did reconcile, and more years have passed (you can read my own threads if you are interested). So I am here to tell you what I think from that perspective.

Your H is having an affair, either an EA or PA, and if not now, he will most likely very soon. I am sorry. It's the worst pain ever! I know, I lived it for years. Unfortunately tho, you cannot "get him to see what he is doing." You cannot control him and what he does. This is the most important thing I am telling you: you cannot show him the light and you cannot control what he does. It's a very hard pill to swallow.

You can however control you and what you will allow. Boundaries are described as drawing a circle around YOURSELF (not them), and then you decide what you allow in your circle. I don't know any sane woman that would be okay with continuing a marriage, and living/sharing a bed, with a man that was disrespecting her in this way. Clearly you are not okay with it either. The most valuable lesson I have learned in the last several years is to trust my gut. So please, trust yourself over anyone.

So what do you do now? That is the part that only you can decide. What does your circle include? The part of your sitch that gave me pause was that you describe how much he did not like being separated. My hope for you is that him risking his M (and you) is not the price of admission he is willing to pay to continue his A with her. She is still perhaps an unknown.

If you want my advice, and I am telling you what I would do, knowing what I know now, I will tell you. And yes, I made a lot of mistakes! Please do not think that by taking a step back from him and the M that he will think you are okay with his A and you are allowing it. DBing does not feel intuitive, but those of us that have come out on the other side can now see that yes, it does work. The idea is that you are going to save yourself and your sanity first, and that you hope, he will realize your worth (as you realize your own worth) and then he decides he does not want to lose you.

So where do you start and what do you do?

1. Read all of Cadet's HW.
2. Read all of Sandi's rules and you follow all of them. If you mess up, shake it off, and start over the next morning.
3. Take a giant, huge step back from him, the M, asking about him and what he is doing, you ask NOTHING ABOUT HER, and you stay away from him and this toxic situation. For now. And if he tries to come at you, all you do is listen, listen, listen. If he wants to know why you are not engaging with him or answering, you only have one response. "Something just doesn't feel right for me. I have a lot to think about."

Will he be confused, or worried, or think you are pulling away? Maybe, hopefully, but really, that doesn't matter. If he is going to continue this A, he will do it anyway. You cannot stop him or save him. You can however save you and your sanity and remain the better option. This is a looonnnnnggggg and slllooowwww road. Stay with us.

Blu
Sarah, I just read this thread by Meg24 and there is some excellent advice. Her sitch has some differences, but the advice is spot on.

Please go to her thread, start at the beginning, and read the advice by Accuray, Anotherstander, and artista. It all applies to you as well!

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2780020&page=1

Blu
Hi Blu,

Thank you so much for sharing. It's nice to see there is a light at the end, but I know it'll be a struggle to recover. I've been reading Meg's post and can feel her pain. I posted a bit about my relationship on her topic, but figured I should post here for reference so others can get the full story.

My H said I was the source of all his anger and problems. I definitely believe it is a MLC as one minute he's talking about buying a motorcycle and moving out, the next he's talking about having kids (but with who if I cause all his problems?!?!)

I unfortunately found out how much effort and time he had invested in this OW instead of me. He had gotten an increase at work, and had been secretly taking the money for 3 months while we were in counseling working on our relationship.

In counseling he would be responsive and agree, try for one day, and then feel like he didn't have to try. The counselor actually called him out for his inability to decide what he wants and how he is clearly disregarding what I am asking him and telling him I need. She said he needs to figure out his out situation first before he can commit to us again. I found out he was saving up for an apartment. I begged.. And cried and cried. But he turned even more bitter and cold and said some horrible things to me. I asked him to leave his job for me, to choose me over whatever was happening with this girl at work (he still says nothing was/is happening, but clearly it isn't a professional relationship).. And he told me work was more important to him. This completely broke me, and it was at this point in the beginning of January that I started DB.

I called his bluff on the moving out bit. Even helped him find a temporary place. I limited contact, refused to reach out, did my own thing, started working on my own mental health. I had developed anxiety and panic attacks during our issues between Sept-Dec. I said I would try to be there for him if he really needed me, but that I couldn't be his buddy.

It didn't take long for him to realize how lonely he was. By the end of the first week he was actually pretty depressed and was admitting that i wasn't the cause of his problems and stress. I held my ground, and he went to individual counseling and actually was prescribed AD.. He didn't want to take them at first, but he found his negative feelings were too strong. He kept asking me to come home, but I kept reminding him this is what he wanted.

After 5 weeks he returned home and promised to be a different man. That lasted 3 days. Once he was feeling better on the AD, work was better, and he was comfortable at home again, low and behold I see him out for lunch with the OW and another coworker. He never once asked me out to lunch or tried to make plans with me. He denied it being an issue, said it was just lunch (the day after Valentine's Day) with his team... When half the team wasn't there. The next week I find a conversation between the 2 of them. You can tell she's trying hard to get a reaction out of him. Trying to joke around, asking for him to call her, and being extra friendly. For the most part he didn't reciprocate, but he never told her to stop.

This threw me for a loop. My anxiety and panic attacks have returned, as has the crying. I was doing so well when he was not in the house, but his return has us right back to the beginning. He started saying I was overreacting, crazy, causing him stress. He's been rude and mean all over again. Like he forgets all of January and what it's like to be alone. Twice in the last 2 weeks he's made a comment about ending our relationship.

So after joining the forum yesterday and reading through posts, I've started detaching again, but I know it will be harder living in the same house. This weekend I told him I needed space and booked a quick trip to Florida. He asked if I wanted him to come too, and I said no. Already he's been nicer and trying to be friendly with me.
Actually OW don't really matter. This particular one may be a Mata Hari type. There was a poster here called Pink whose WH was obsessed with one of those. They are a particularly nasty type causing disruption to feed their egos. Plus a work dynamic with a subordinate can set him up for accusations of sexual harassment. In these circumstances he may lose his job and find it impossible to get a reference. There is no doubt that colleagues at work will know too, an open secret. Employers don't condone this type of stuff as it opens floodgates. Weinstein and all that.....

This is about WH facing the reality of who he is and where he has reached in his life by his own efforts.

He may need to change employers to put this behind him before he gets the push. That's for him.

I am going to state for the record I don't believe in MLC, it isn't in the DSM as a disorder. It appears to be a particular set of entitled behaviours. These behaviours disrespect you and your M.

This DB process is for you to concentrate on you. This is your time to work on you, to set goals for you. To be a friend with WH and perhaps date him.

Blu offers sound advice on this as she walked the talk.

V
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Hello

One of the hardest parts of dealing with and recovering from affairs are due to the gaslighting. Please google gaslighting and affair or gaslighting and addiction. It might give you better insight regarding your panic attacks and anxiety. (We have them because we know something is off with our partners and how we are being treated and then these reactions get used against us to continue the gaslighting cycle)

Staying with him right now is dangerous for your soul. For marriage and reconciliation to work both people have to be in it 100%.

I agree with blu wave. It is impossible for you to get your ex to see anything. You are looking at things from a perspective of someone trying to save their marriage and think he is too. He is not.

His perspective is as Vanilla says someone feeling entitled right now. He is destroying you to justify this entitlement. And if you stay with him he will continie to villify you to further justify nehaviors that are not normal in a healthy partnership. HIS BEHAVIORS ARE NOT NORMAL IN A HEALTHY PARTNERSHIP. Any validation will only give him further proof you are wrong and weak and he is in the right and desirable. You are right to get away from him and take care of yourself. You cant get him to see your perspective. Dont try. It will firther your anxiety.

I also do not believe in MLC. I think often times we just dont know who a person is at their core until they are pit to the test. These things (affairs, walking out) usually come at or after life stress. Job loss, death, health issues, children. These people are fair weather friends at the core. And it just takes bad weather to see it. They were never truly committed to marriage.

When they leave and come back, all it usually takes is another life stress for them to leave again. So evaluate why you fighting for this to work.
Hello and welcome! You've gotten some great advice from Blu, Vanilla and Juju and of course the great boilerplate stuff Cadet posts to new people.

First please try to understand that most of your marital issues are probably rooted in HIM and not YOU. We all come here throwing ourselves under the bus, but often we're just along for our WAS's wild ride.

Originally Posted By: SarahW

Obviously this attention he was giving her upset me, and I started having anxiety and panic attacks. He couldn’t handle my reactions when he said he was constantly assuring me nothing was going on, but I would find more of the same fun flirty messages.


This is NOT your imagination. He is engaging in inappropriate behavior for a married man. You should not pander to it, you should firmly put your foot down (I'm trying not to suggest you put it somewhere else, LOL!)

Quote:
He talked about getting a divorce, because I was too much to handle.


Yes how dare you not allow him to have girlfriends!

Quote:
I suggested some time away from each other and we agreed to separate for a bit, because his actions were severely affecting my health. While separated he became depressed and said this wasn’t what he wanted. We agreed to have him move back home after 5 weeks.


First you absolutely did the right thing telling him to get out. Second, 5 weeks was too soon. He was just starting to feel the ramifications of his actions, but he didn't feel them enough for true remorse to set in. You should have insisted on a couple of months of counseling as a condition of him returning.

Quote:
She called to get help on work one night at 8:30pm while we were spending time together and he actually went to help her, I saw him out for lunch with her and 1 other person when he said he was taking the team to lunch, and I found wHe thought he was taking care of things, but I would still find them going out for lunches, and inappropriate messages.


Clearly this is unacceptable behavior. Don't let him gaslight you into thinking it's all in your head. Do read up on gaslighting as Juju suggested because it can make you feel like YOU are going crazy when you are the victim of it.

Quote:
I’ve tried to do a 180 and make it seem like it doesn’t bother me...


Not something you want to do a 180 on. Not at all. Doing a 180 is doing the opposite of your own bad behavior, not being accepting of your spouse's bad behavior.

Quote:
I don’t know how to get him to understand his relationship with this girl is really affecting me.


Kick him out. You've tried to communicate with him, he refuses to listen. He's like a stubborn rebellious child and the more you try the further down he will bring you. For any chance of saving your M and getting your "real" H back, you've got to end it for now.

Quote:
I should mention that I regularly go out with friends (just dinners, shopping, etc) not drinking or late nights. This has been a source of contention with him. He feels that because I do this, he should be able to go out with his work “friends” and drink and stay out late. If I make plans without him, he gets sour and distant. Which I fear will drive him to this other girl.


People in healthy relationships engage in relationships with others of the same sex (like you) NOT the opposite sex (like your H). And they do it with the APPROVAL of a loving spouse, because a loving spouse knows it is healthy and will only strengthen their bond. Your H is a hot mess and is trying to keep you off balance. Gain back your clarity and focus.
Originally Posted By: Vanilla
Plus a work dynamic with a subordinate can set him up for accusations of sexual harassment. In these circumstances he may lose his job and find it impossible to get a reference. There is no doubt that colleagues at work will know too, an open secret. Employers don't condone this type of stuff as it opens floodgates. Weinstein and all that.....V


I have been telling him that summer! The way he seems something as innocent, other people around him won't. They'll see the favoritism and start assuming. This was just something else I was trying to get him to see. He saw a little bit of light at one point, when another sub-ordinate made an off the cuff comment. He had a conversation with her to keep things professional, but clearly they went back on it. Not as much as in the summer, but still not professional.


Originally Posted By: Vanilla
I am going to state for the record I don't believe in MLC, it isn't in the DSM as a disorder. It appears to be a particular set of entitled behaviours. These behaviours disrespect you and your M. V


I totally agree with this as well. I feel like a MLC is just an excuse for privileged people that have too much and don't know what else to do. Who think that things should be absolutely perfect for them and they don't have to work to get what they want.

I read up on gaslighting last night.. and some aspects definitely sound like him. I know the guilt of everything is too much to bear and he tries to put it all on me. I've called him out for this many times while fighting. Why am I crazy, but he's the one saying he's not sure what he wants?

update:

After telling him I'm going away for the weekend, he was fine with it and pretended like I asked him. I said no, I was booking it whether you agreed or not.

On the way home from work, he got a call from OW to tell him some confidential work gossip. The director was being let go, and the person that was working on his package told a few people. She thought it was her duty to report it to him. He told me the reason for her call, and I asked how that was something that needed to be discussed and couldn't wait for tomorrow? why did she need to be the one to tell him? He said he appreciated the call. But I asked how it helped him, he said it didn't. So i said you're ok with your employee breaking company policy and gossiping about someone being laid off, when the person doesn't even know. He continued to defend her. This kind of behaviour is what upsets the most. You know she did something wrong, but you're defending her to me... Which if it was just an employee wouldn't even make sense, who cares what my opinion is of her? He said that at his old job he would tell his boss all kinds of info. I said its not the same. He said yes it is, I was a subordinate and informed my boss. She's a subordinate informing me. I said you were a man that had a friendly relationship with his male boss. She is a girl that has a friendly relationship with her married male boss. NOT THE SAME. He tried to fight me on it again, so I said, sorry She is a girl that has a friendly relationship with her married male boss who has already stepped over the line and knows this relationship has negatively affected his M and W. He stopped talking.

The next morning I left for work separately, and then freaked out a bit during work with some TM's. He just responded back that we will talk later.

After work, we met up and he asked if I wanted to go for dinner.. all super nice. and I said no, that if he's going to continue this he needs to leave tonight. He told me that he spoke with the OW first thing that morning about her phone call, how it wasn't appropriate to call him about gossip, and after work. That they're not friends and he's her boss and she shouldn't be telling him sensitive information like that if it's not for her to share. I'm glad he stood up for himself and set the record straight, but since this was their third conversation on professional in less than 4 months, I said he should take it a step further. He refused. So i said he's protecting her again and I don't know why, if he wants to protect her he can leave. Later on he showed me an email he had just sent to her reiterating what they spoke about that morning and copying his boss. At least it's written and on record now, and his boss is aware of the situation.

After that I was able to calm down. It was weird but my anxiety that had been building the last 2 weeks just fell away. Maybe he was trying. I said that was the right thing to do and that's how things should always be with her, and he needs to leave her out of this M if he wants it to work.

The rest of the night was quiet, and this definitely helped me relax and focus on DB. On the way into work I talked about how I was going out for dessert at lunch. He asked who I was going with, and I said I would see who could go at work, but I was going anyways. He tells me that he has some time and can come with. So I said ok.

Lets hope I can stay on top.

I can definitely see he is purposefully trying to be stubborn. He doesn't want to listen to what I have to say, and tries to do the opposite of what I was saying I wanted. I feel like he's trying to assert his ground, but I'm not going to let that happen if it causes me stress and negatively affects our marriage. I think this definitely has to do with his entitlement and thinking he should be making the calls.

I'm going to stick to the making plans without him bit, and see how things go... That kind of seems to make him stop and think for a little bit.
That's good.

You stated your boundary and were prepared to enforce it.

That's excellent, you are learning fast.

You may get help from reading Al Turtle on boundaries, it was a big eye opener to me and I got it for the very first time ever!

Duh!

The technique of getting on with your life is called LRT, it's in MWD book. I hope you have DR on your reading list. Seems good to me.

V
Definitely will have to get DR and the book on boundaries.

Quick update:
I returned from my weekend away and he almost immediately started talking about things that happened at his work... even though we’ve discussed that I don’t want to hear about his work. Things seemed a little strained, and even more so when we got home and I could see the house and cats were not really taken care of... the cats didn’t have any water, but he swore he filled it that morning.. and he said he cleaned up on Saturday, but didn’t mop.. so you could see foot and paw prints all over the floors.
I said I didn’t want to fight, but said the house was dirty and was a little annoyed. He got super defensive and said it was my turn to clean, but I had left. So I started to clean... which annoyed him because he had “already done it”. I just said I don’t want to spend the work week living like this, so I’ll clean it since it was my turn.
He apologized for his reaction and said he just wanted things to be good and that he had missed me. I just said if he wanted things to be good he didn’t have to get so defensive.
The next few days were good. No other issues. He asked to go out for lunch yesterday, but I was busy so said no. He mentioned about going on a date on Friday, but I won’t get my hopes up.
He’s been quiet about the OW so this morning I asked how their conversations were. He said they were fine. So I asked to see some emails/chats. He stared at me for like a minute before pulling out his phone and showing me some. For the most part he would initiate about work, and she would either send him the file or answer his question. Which was a relief. He said he wasn’t screwing this up, and then went to the car. In the car I said it was good, and that I was glad she was learning her lesson. He got a bit defensive of this..... and I said to stop. That him defending her was an issue. So he said he wasn’t. He said things had been fine and I didn’t need to bring her up or make passive aggressive comments. I was taken aback and said that I wasn’t making passive aggressive comments, and that he couldn’t just hide her and pretend like this didn’t affect our marriage. He said he’s not hiding anything, and that it’s something I need to get over. I said why would I get over it if I’m still worried and still in the middle of it? That I hadn’t forgiven him for anything yet and that he’s still expected to be open and honest about it, especially if he wants me to “get over it”. I told him he’s just blaming me for his own guilt and actions and that he needs to stop. He said he doesn’t know why I start these fights... I said I was asking a question, you’re the one who gets defensive and causes a fight. He said he’ll try to not get defensive.. and that he’s sorry, and just wants things to be good.
We left it at that.. I’m going to see a counsellor tonight to talk about things and I think it irritates him that I’m going to say my side and not take all the blame that he’s trying to push onto me.

We’ll see how things go...
Hi sara,

This is great! Your boundaries are really resonable regarding that woman at work. And your husband is showing that he respects them. Which is good.

Why is it that you do not want to talk to him about his work? I think it was nice of him to want to communicate and share with you, but it seems that you shut him down?

He seems to be willing to compromise for you. What are some changes you can make to meet his needs better? He is on the defensive but why? What would his valid complaints about you be?

Obviously your marriage is vulnerable right now. What can you do on your end?
Al Turtle is free! If you Google, it's a resource for teenagers and is a paper. I loved it.

You seem a bit tit for tat in some exchanges. You can just cut it short and say "my views haven't changed, you know them" and then change the subject.

Otherwise I think you are doing so well.

V
Originally Posted By: JujuB
Why is it that you do not want to talk to him about his work? I think it was nice of him to want to communicate and share with you, but it seems that you shut him down?


I was basically his sounding board for his issues at work. He would come home angry and then tell me all he problems he was having, and it wouldn’t matter if I didn’t say anything or if I offered a suggestion, his irritation would turn on me. When I had issues at work and wanted to talk with him, he wouldn’t listen. This issue was brought up in couples counselling, and he was told that he needs to stop bringing the negative feelings from work home, and he needs to stop airing them out to me, especially while he’s telling me work is more important than me. It wasn’t helping our relationship to hear all the negatives about work, and then hear how it’s more of a priority than I am.
I know his mindset may have changed with that... but since his work place is already a sore topic for me I would prefer to not hear anything about it. There are some times when I can listen to it... but most times I get anxious listening to him, and it still irritates me that he ever even thought work was more important than his wife.

Originally Posted By: JujuB
He seems to be willing to compromise for you. What are some changes you can make to meet his needs better? He is on the defensive but why? What would his valid complaints about you be?


He definitely feels defensive.. and I think it’s because I can’t wrap my head around everything that has happened. He’s literally absolved himself of any wrongdoing over the last 9 months. So if something comes up that relates to anything during that time, he feels like I’m attacking me and bringing up the past. He doesn’t always remember that he’s the one that hurt me.. and that he needs to own it and work/address things. Not defend his actions.

His biggest issue with me is the “nagging” and bringing up the past. It doesn’t feel like the past for me because I’m still going through it. I still worry everyday. And just because he’s behaving now doesn’t mean that I shouldn’t fear when he won’t be. Especially since he spends more time at work and close to the OW than he does at home or with me. I get it, he has to work and he has to work with her... but he doesn’t understand why that bothers me.
As for the nagging, I’m actually really trying not to say anything. I made a schedule of things that need to be done around the house and we rotate each week. However he hasn’t been keeping up his end. It’s all written down so he knows what he needs to do. So I try not to say Anything, but it’s irrtating to watch him know what he has to do at work and do it, but know what he has to do at home and not do it.

Does anyone have any suggestions on how to deal with this?

I’m in the middle of Al Turtles Boundaries for couples article. Definitely worth the read.
Today everything fell apart. Yesterday he told me about how he was having pizza for work since it was "pi day" and how the sales and facilities team were going to order pizza for the whole office. I asked if was a free for all, and if they were just going to put it all in the lunch room so he would have to rush to get a slice. and he said "I hope not, its going on my company credit card". I thought that was weird.. because if sales was putting it on, why wouldn't it go on theres? I didn't say this, and just said well have fun.

At 12:30pm today I see he's at a pizza place. The company was promoting the day and had videos of him standing in line.. with the OW and 2 other women. I sent a TM saying "thought you were ordering in?" I also called him, and he didn't answer. When He finally responded to my TM he said that it fell through when people realized they had to go pick up the deal. So only him and the 3 other people from his department went. He said he was going to tell me later. I sent him the pictures of him and the OW and asked why he didn't back out. Especially when other people did, and he knows were having issues, and he said he wouldn't go out for lunch with her anymore. he said because he wanted to. Obviously this didn't sit well with me.

I told him if he can't respect our relationship, my feelings, and his own promises, then what was the point? I told him I was messaging the OW. He asked me not to, said he was the moron and it was his fault. Oh well. I messaged her. I said I don't care how innocent she thinks it is, it's not innocent on his end and her conversations and friendliness have been an issue for us and that I know thats not her problem, but I'm asking you to stop treating him like a friend and start treating him like a boss.

She responded, "sorry for any inconvenience, but I'm not really sure what that means. hope you guys will be ok, have a nice day". So I replied and said its simple. Stop going out to lunch with him, stop talking about your personal life, stop sending him stupid messages at work. stop being friendly with my husband.

About half an hour later she asks if I want to go for a coffee... I was like, does he know you're asking to meet me. and she said no. So I met up with her.

Basically she said she knows things weren't the most professional or appropriate between them, especially during the summer. But that was so long ago now, and she can't remember everything. She said she didn't want to get involved in our relationship, but she wanted to discuss some of the things I was saying. She says she doesn't invite him out for lunch, he invited himself that day. That 7 people were all gonna go get pizza (remember he said the whole office was ordering in?!) but then 3 backed out so only the 4 of them went. I told her the lie he told me... and she was like "oh". She said she didn't see why it was an issue going out for lunch with him and other people. Especially when he goes out for dinners and lunches with another girl that use to work there (I know she's over exaggerating this because I knew he had gone out twice since the girl had found a new job 4 months ago, and it was only because she wanted him to come work at her new company). So I said, I know his dealings with that girl. He doesn't hide anything about her. But with you, he chooses to hide and lie. I had to explain this to her like 3 times. She was surprised at the level of detail I knew about their conversations and relationship. Which threw her off as she was obviously trying to downplay it. In the end, she said she would try to stop being friendly with him. But said if a group of people were going out for lunch, she wasn't going to not include him, and he could make his own choices if he wanted to go or not.

After work, H tries to act like nothing is wrong. Immediately sets me off. He sticks to his lie about the office plans falling through. And says he knows he shouldn't have gone when other people were backing out, but he wanted pizza and wanted to go. So I tell him she asked to meet me. He didn't believe it. So I showed him her TM asking to meet. He didn't know what to say. Then I told him the story she told me about their Pizza day.. and he was like "uh, I can't recall exactly what was said" and that 2 of 3 people that backed out were from sales and facilities... But thats not the whole office. there were more people from his department organizing it than there was from his lie!

He wanted to know more about what she said to me. I told him how she called him out about his meeting up with an old co-worker. She also called him a co-worker, and I had to be like no he's your boss. And that she basically admitted to both of them being inappropriate during the summer, but that she would try to not be friendly anymore with him. He was shocked that she had agreed to the summer issues and that she was saying he was going out for dinners with the old co-worker.. asked if he needs to have a conversation with her and HR now.. I was like I don't know. She asked me to meet up, obviously she had stuff to say. But if had done nothing then he shouldn't feel guilty. I also said that she could have told him she met with me, but she chose not to. so he can read into that as he likes.

I told him to leave. He said he had no where to go. I said he's clearly making the choices he wants to make and not considering me at all. Not to mention his lie to cover it up. I said he could go to my sisters or his moms, and even asked my sister to let him stay at her place. (I had told her what happened throughout the day). He apologized, and tried to get me to change my mind. I said you made the choice. You said you wouldn't do something, and less than a week later you're doing it again. Full well knowing that you're hurting me.

So this is where things stand now. I really don't know how we can come back from this. This lying was just too much... How many times am I suppose to go through the same thing? and then have him expect me to feel sorry for him!
So as I see it. He is not in a PA with this POW. But actually POW isn't very interested? There have been other POW in the past?

He appears to have had two EA and is denial? He is lying to you but not himself?

The lies are more important to you than the actual EA?

Just trying to clarify.....

I am sorry you went through this although you now have your INTEL.

This is a big truth dart.

What do you want to happen?

V
There was a POW before we were married, about 4 years into our relationship. So this is why I could see all the signs leading up to another.

I think it’s the same EA.. but the OW is trying to get me to target someone else. I’m not sure what her tactic was by throwing him under the bus... maybe because she knew I would get mad at him.

The lies are definitely more important than an EA... I can already see he’s having an EA with this POW even if he doesn’t want to admit it to himself. The fact that he said he was working on things, would cut her out, and made promises as to how he will move on.. and then planned a lie to spend time with her.. this has just erased all my trust in him completely.

I’ve decided that I can longer live like this. I can’t trust what he says. I’ve told him that I need to see action from him that proves he is in this 100%, or he needs to leave and I need to move on. It’s not fair he keeps bringing her back into our lives when he says he wouldn’t.

Not sure when we will speak. He wanted to talk in person yesterday but I couldn’t. I already know he’s just going to say I have to trust him and that it was just a mistake. But I can’t see how it was a mistake if he had a whole day to plan and lie and follow through it.
Originally Posted By: SarahW
There was a POW before we were married, about 4 years into our relationship. So this is why I could see all the signs leading up to another.


Sorry, should clarify, there was a confirmed PA with a OW 4 years into the start of our relationship. It was at work, his was friendly with a female coworker, and one day it turned physical. This is my fear with the current situation. It’s the same in that he treats this female coworker differently than the others. And the fact that he creates lies and deletes her messages... but doesn’t for other female coworkers...
So it's a repeating pattern?

Am I understanding he keeps repeating the pattern?

And some POW respond to his interest and others don't?

Sounds to me like he has a sweet cycle going in this, and I agree that you need a great boundary on it.

So I am not surprised you have reached the conclusion you have, honey that is so so tough.

V
The first and only PA that I’m aware of happened 11-12 years ago. We were in a serious relationship at the time, and it took a lot to overcome the infidelity and lies. We weren’t living together, so space was a lot easier.

This summer/fall is the first time I’ve seen a repeat in his behaviour, which is what scared me and promoted me to question his intentions.

Unfortunately I’m weak and after 3 days out of the house, we spoke, he agreed once again to work on things and not do certain things. He came back home, and now he’s changed what was discussed 3 days ago. He’s changed the words of what he said he would do ie: “I’m going to quit my job on Monday if that’s what it takes” to “I’m looking for a new job”, or “I won’t have anymore social interactions with the OW” to “I won’t have any non work related social interactions with her”.

I don’t know how to deal with this anymore. He does something wrong and then he’s able to manipulate himself and me in a false sense of security so he can do it again.

I’ve asked him now that he’s completely broken my trust, how can we rebuild it? And he says he doesn’t know.... and he’s not trying anything either. Instead now when I question every little thing he’s getting mad.

He told my sister he wants his freedom to do what he wants and his wife. But how when what he wants to do disrespects his wife?

If anyone has any recommendations on how to deal with this.... it would be great. Just know that I’m at the end of my line here, and if he moves out, I’m moving on.
Originally Posted By: SarahW
The first and only PA that I’m aware of happened 11-12 years ago. We were in a serious relationship at the time, and it took a lot to overcome the infidelity and lies. We weren’t living together, so space was a lot easier.

This summer/fall is the first time I’ve seen a repeat in his behaviour, which is what scared me and promoted me to question his intentions.

Unfortunately I’m weak
and after 3 days out of the house, we spoke, he agreed once again to work on things and not do certain things. He came back home, and now he’s changed what was discussed 3 days ago. He’s changed the words of what he said he would do ie: “I’m going to quit my job on Monday if that’s what it takes” to “I’m looking for a new job”, or “I won’t have anymore social interactions with the OW” to “I won’t have any non work related social interactions with her”.

I don’t know how to deal with this anymore.


Oh Sarah, sometimes we do "know", but we resist so hard b/c we want so badly to be wrong. We keep hoping that our spouses will become what he is not becoming or we stay based on his "potential" as a spouse. Your h is sending you clear signals. Yes, clear.

Because his actions say he wants out AND his words are inconsistent too, so you can't even try to hold onto them.

Believe me, I really truly do know how painful this can get. I just want to save you some time and dignity.

IF, and I do mean IF, there's a chance for your h to really WAKE UP and choose you and your family, it won't be by continuing to TRY and do what your thread title says "get him to see what he's doing".

He knows what he is doing and he's willing to take the chance on --

1) you bluffing

AND OR

2) losing you.

You have to hope that by him believing he's losing you for real, that he will feel the loss. But so far he just feels your pull. And you are enmeshed in a constant game of riddles and guessing and playing the part of the marriage police. It's soul sucking.


He does something wrong and then he’s able to manipulate himself and me in a false sense of security so he can do it again.

Ah, but you are educable. You learn and you grow STRONGER and you change and evolve.



I’ve asked him now that he’s completely broken my trust, how can we rebuild it? And he says he doesn’t know.... and he’s not trying anything either.

THIS^^^^ is the answer. BELIEVE HIM HERE^^^^^.



Instead now when I question every little thing he’s getting mad.

Oh that's nice. How DARE YOU??? Look up narcissist sometime and see how much of it fits. No, he does not have to be a full on total narcissist!

But the behavior where he shrugs off a marriage and changes what he says, and then gets mad at YOU for daring to ask him to choose the marriage to which he made vows, is so over the line it'll make you crazy unless you step back and see the reality.

He is dangerously entitled.

He told my sister he wants his freedom to do what he wants and his wife. But how when what he wants to do disrespects his wife?


To him, these^^ are totally compatible. He wants his cake & to eat it too. CAKE EATING ALERT!

DING DING!!
Why should a choice of his cost HIM anything?

This is malignant entitlement b/c it only cost OTHERS (dearly) and he knows it and he does it anyhow. Sure, he cares about you. But you know who he cares most about??

HIM. He's made a statement that most women (and you, once upon a time) would laugh off as you pack his things to give him the boot. You have to wonder if he's testing your remaining self respect. The statement to YOUR SISTER is so disrespectful it's like he's daring you to set a boundary.

Knowing he's not putting you first OR even equal to himself OR his other "interests",

--it will feel like a gut punch every day UNTIL you realize this is about HIM, and not about you. You are enough. He's not capable of making himself happy like an adult who chooses chocolate ice cream but really wants another flavor TOO...and bemoans the loss of the strawberry ice cream he did not order...

All you can do now is help him feel the loss and the cost of his choices. Not with meanness but indifference, even if you have to fake it, which you will.

Do not argue or advocate for yourself or the family or marriage. He knows the deal. Don't play the game anymore of pursuing him. Do NOT PURSUE HIM>

Run away, and if he catches up with you and tries to win you back, THEN we can help you cross that bridge.

Meanwhile, see a good attorney to get info. You don't have to file but Knowledge is power.

You really want this guy? Then You have to run from him - b/c he likes the chase.

You don't want this guy b/c he's horrible to you? Then You have to run from him to Get A Life.

Either way, your course of action is the same. Which is clarity! I truly believe this.



If anyone has any recommendations on how to deal with this.... it would be great. Just know that I’m at the end of my line here, and if he moves out, I’m moving on.




He may not feel like moving out. It's expensive. And he may like parts of being married, so if he can do it part time, why wouldn't he? And if he wants to be single but not move out, why wouldn't he do that? Seriously, what price would HE pay by crossing your boundaries again and again? He can say he "meant" that he would not bring OW home...

or change his mind every week, throw you a bone and enjoy a movie together and ML and then you'll think "HE is working on us. He's trying!" Only to be moody and distant the next day.

Don't pressure his mood shifts = confusion, they are sometimes just a game they play to keep both parties "happy" and HIM off the hook of any consequences.

YOU may be confused by his behavior b/c you are still projecting your values onto him. I did this very thing for a long long time.

In YOUR mind, the behavior is so bad for the marriage, and would hurt your spouse's self esteem, YOU would never do this to him, and thus, you are confused.

Surely he must be confused...he must be having a MLC. He must be in a "fog".

OR...what? Or this is who he is. He does NOT share your values. He does not have your moral compass.

I do not mean to project my situation onto yours. But there are some similar veins around here and it's mostly about when your spouse says something really damaging or admits to not being committed.

I wish we'd all LISTEN TO THEM AND BELIEVE THEM b/c that's the time they really are serious.

Now & then step back and ask yourself what you'd say to a girlfriend in your shoes.

Hang in there, see a lawyer and know your rights. Most of the time the WAS, especially men, do a lot of financial planning before we know what hit us.

Mine took ALL of the joint marital funds, and we'd been married 35 years, and made love the morning he went "on a trip" in Oct 2016...

I have not seen him since. Neither have our children. I hear he's getting married to OW...and I'm still waiting for my lump sum payment. Borrowing money to get by. Learn from my experience, please.

((( )))
Sarah, I read some similar behaviors in both of our H's. Mine is very manipulative, very self-indulgent, and tries to make me feel as if I'm completely at fault (then 5 minutes later says that he's the a&!hole for doing this to his family), and tries to project his behavior on to me.

I must say that life at home is much quieter and calmer since he moved out, and I am ablr to step back and see the whole picture more clearly.

I know you say if your H moves out that you're moving on. But ask yourself if that's what you're really ready for. I'm not ready to move on, but I am ready to move forward.

I applaud your ability to set boundaries. I didn't seem to be able to when H was home. Good luck, stay strong.
Originally Posted By: SarahW

I can definitely see he is purposefully trying to be stubborn. He doesn't want to listen to what I have to say, and tries to do the opposite of what I was saying I wanted. I feel like he's trying to assert his ground, but I'm not going to let that happen if it causes me stress and negatively affects our marriage. I think this definitely has to do with his entitlement and thinking he should be making the calls.



this behavior is not the behavior of a remorseful spouse... the attitude that your H is displaying here is going to be nothing but trouble for you... you will not be able to reason with him... he does not care... you are not his priority... he has no self-awareness... he should be embarrassed that he has to make things up in order to hang out with the "in-crowd" at work... if i were that OW, after he sent an email to HR about my being inappropriate, i would go to HR and tell them that i spoke with his wife because she texted me, and i would tell them what his wife said, and everything he is doing just to be near me...

you know what you need to do... you need to kick his disrespectful a$$ out and move FOWARD with your life... you set boundaries... now you need to follow through, because if you don't, as you know--those boundaries are useless and may as well be open borders for him to do as he pleases... that he said he wants to be free to do what he wants and have his wife is an insult to your marriage... he cannot have both... at this point, because you cannot trust him, you need to have the guts to make his choice for him: BE FREE... but BE FREE with ME... and then you need to GAL--BIG TIME...

once you are a part, you can take your time to decide what you want to do...

mis dos centavos...

--artista
Sarah, after 25yearsmlc whole post above, I swear she is talking about my H. Every word she says sounds like my sitch, other than the WAH doing financial planning. My H is horrible with money. Which is exactly why I'm working on contingency plan to replace his payments to me, as I don't know how long they'll last.

My H is classic basic narcissist, and I refused to see it for 22 years. As I told my brother last night, I can see pieces of him right now over the last 20 years, but now it's 100 times more extreme. I often wonder if there's something wrong in the brains of people that do this sort of thing to those they say they love. Do they simply lack self-disciplin and will power, or is it deeper, more chemical?

Be careful. Tread lightly. As artista says above, move FORWARD, once you are apart you can take you time to decide what you want to do.
Sorry it's been such a long time. And thank you 25yearsmlc, meg24 and artista for your responses and words of wisdom. I read them immediately, but I've just been delaying a reply to see how things are going.

I feel like I'm almost in a twilight zone. One day everything seems fine, and the next it's like a light switch has been changed.

Since my last post he's seemingly kept up his changed terms.. however he shows no effort for finding another job. I haven't heard or seen any messages from the OW or any issues.. But I'm not sure if thats because he's gotten smarter about how he's doing things, or if he really is stepping back.

He has shown a lot more effort in spending time with me, during work as well. We also had a nice quick 4 day vacation to the Caribbean.

My anxiety is still there.. but I think that as long as I question his intentions it will still be there.

For the days where I say it's like a light switch... While things are going well, he'll say something random to upset me. On vacation he brought up girls he use to like.. Ok fine. I said it bothered me that he was thinking about stuff like that on vacation with me and I didn't want to talk about that. The next day he brought up girls he currently thought were cute....... :| He mentioned one at work that I had never heard about before (luckily not the OW). So I got upset and said that I don't know why he's intentionally trying to hurt me. He apologized.

This past week, I asked him when he thought would be a good time to review progress with our situation (ie: him not looking for a new job even though he said he would). Of course he got mad and after some bickering agreed to apply to 5 jobs that week. We agreed to review our efforts at the end of the month.

One minute he acts like he's putting in a lot of effort, the next he acts like he shouldn't have to put in effort.

This past Friday he was a bit distant on the way to work, said he wouldn't meet up today with me since he had seen me so much during the week already. Ok.. weird thing to say first thing since our plans to meet are never really made first thing. He mentioned about a 9am meeting, but wouldn't say who it was with. Obviously I find out it was with the OW and another employee, and that he went for coffee with someone else later. On the way home I said he was acting all weird this morning, he said he wasn't, and I said he must have been in a rush for a very important meeting with the OW, especially since during her meeting she had time to change her chat profile picture. He got defensive and said she wasn't on her phone, I said the time said 9:07am, right at the start of his meeting. He blew up and started freaking out in the car, saying I need to move on or move on (meaning end the relationship). I asked how am i suppose to trust him when he's getting all defensive about this (yes, I know I pushed his buttons, but I didn't push that hard for such a reaction). We fought, he said I ruined all the effort that was made over the last 2 weeks, and things were tense that night into Saturday AM. I tried to explain to him my POV about him actively avoiding talking about things that happen with the OW and that his defensive overreaction when I say something he doesn't like, but he was in such a mood that it didn't matter what I said. If I was blaming him for his reaction, than he didn't want to listen. He said me talking about everything makes him not want to try. After some space, I sent him a message that basically said if he wants me to work on my emotions with his work and the OW, then he needs to work on his emotions about our marriage and the effort required to make it work.

The light switch changed back, and suddenly he wasn't as angry and being nice.

Last night, I went down to see if he was coming to bed at 10pm, and he minimizes a computer screen and is sitting there with a skype chat open... with the OW highlighted. I asked what was going on. He said nothing, showed me that it said he hadn't been online in 2 days that it was just a coincidence where the mouse landed, and showed me some work emails about him going back and forth with her over the last 3 hours about something for her to do at work. The last email is her telling him about her dance schedule for the week and when she can work late. Obviously i get upset. He says he doesn't know why she would say that, he had only told her what he work he wanted her to do, that he didn't respond to her comment on her dance etc etc. I told him how I couldn't trust him at work, and clearly couldn't trust her, because she specifically said she never talks to him about her dance and personal life, yet here she was trying to... He said he wasn't going to play into it. I guess we'll see if he ends up working late this week.

Ugh, I know I can't control what happens with them. And I know no matter what I say, if he wants something to happen, something will happen. It just [censored] being stuck in limbo and not knowing what to trust.
Sarah,

I am sorry this is happening. You seem to be trapped in a viscous cycle. Here is the thing, you cannot change the course of things, but you can jump out of this trap at any time. This is taking up a lot of mental energy and causing you stress. It's not okay. What he is doing is not okay. Listen to your your instincts about her and if he's being honest. They are right.

Sometimes sitches like yours are a more complicated because they are not obvious or black and white. He didn't up and leave, he doens't seem to be having an active A with her, and he isn't threatening D. That doesn't mean he is being a good H and giving you what this M needs. When someone is all in, they listen and deeply care for their S and they will do whatever it takes to mend it. Including cut off all contact with a coworker, change jobs, and provide full transparency. I don't see him doing that. I don't see him doing much of anything.

I don't know if you read my sitch, or if I even shared much of this, but my H had a female coworker who was into him for many years. This started before we had any M troubles. She tried very hard to get his attention, gain his sympathy by telling him her problems, and would try and text him and befriend him outside of work. He didn't pay much attention to her. He also didn't draw firm boundaries with her and so we argued about that. When we started having M problems and split up for that 10 months, well she came on strong! In fact, he and OW argued about her too. lol. This lady started sending him sexy pics and tried to kiss him at work. He couldn't even tell his OW because she was jealous and insecure of their R (of course she was, she was just an A). So that was a huge lighbulb moment for him. What I had been saying (his W) for all those years was right about this coworker. Now he is deeply ashamed he didn't shut her down in those early years.

I don't know if your H is as aware as he says he is or is somewhat oblivious to how inappropriate his Rs are with women. He lacks boundaries and overall respect for you and the M. The thing is, I am not sure you can convince him. I tried for many years and my H did not get it! He thought he was just a nice guy, kinda felt sorry for this lady, and it did make his ego feel good.

No matter what your H is thinking/doing, I think your actions are the same. You are going to drive yourself crazy if you keep watching him, arguing, and going in theses circles. It's not working either.

I just wrote a long post to Meg and I think it applies to you to. Even if he is not having an A, you can still save yourself. You also send the message that you are done playing games. Let him be, start to detach, and don't worry about his response. You don't need this cr-p.


Blu

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2784476&page=2
I call this the wobble board strategy.

Never let the LBS feel secure, keep the wobble board wobbling. Compare the LBS with other women. Keeps her on her toes on that wobble board. Keeps her guessing. Unsettle her, interferes with sleep and wellbeing, but hey its fun to watch someone wobble. And it drives them crazy staying up right. They must stay on that wobble board to be in an R with WH.

Be intermittently nice then wobble that board. Drive her crazy with guessing when the next wobble is coming.

Someone who respects you won't treat you this way. Forget love which is a choice, think respect. He puts himself up there and you on a wobble board he can wobble at any time.

You aren't in a beauty parade, you are his W. You shouldn't be compared with random women in any way. It's up to him to handle come ons from skanks who want to take their knickers off. At work that's sexual harassment anyway. But it's nice for him to have an extra to wobble that board.

Those are my thoughts.

V
You are getting some great responses and very solid advise.

How many of us on here look back once our spouses have left and say "wow. The signs were all there. Why the hell did I put up with that. Why wasnt I the one to leave?"

Here's the thing. Hera was always my least favorite of the Greek goddesses. She seemed like such an unpleasant nag. Always chasing and trying to catch her husband cheating. I assumed she wasn't as beautiful or valuable or loveable as the others. Not very fair of me. Her husband was the problem.

I would not want to be her though. I want to be the one that is desired and loved and cherished. Not the one that is resentful and filled with anger and panic and jealousy. But that's kust not possible in some relationships. No matter how much you try to rationalize, appeal to, get angry at, or threaten.

Personally, i would rather be alone then chasing someone that has eyes for others because of who it turns you into. That nagging Hera.
Spouses who are genuinely sorry and remorseful don't go back on what they say or try to bargain or push boundaries and see what they can get away with. When they are truly sorry and willing to do the work, they will be the one going above and beyond to ensure your comfort level, to make you feel secure, and do whatever it takes to keep you. Anything less than that is a spouse who is just cake eating...wanting the benefits you provide, without giving you the loyalty and commitment you deserve. Being willing to accept scraps of attention in hopes it will become more only emboldens a WS to keep doing just what he's doing. Who wouldn't want to have the best of both worlds when there are no consequences for their actions? This is the time to draw serious boundaries. Expect better for yourself.
Posted By: SarahW - 04/15/18 09:41 AM
Originally Posted By: BluWave

I am sorry this is happening. You seem to be trapped in a viscous cycle. Here is the thing, you cannot change the course of things, but you can jump out of this trap at any time. This is taking up a lot of mental energy and causing you stress. It's not okay. What he is doing is not okay. Listen to your your instincts about her and if he's being honest. They are right.


I feel like the most difficult part for me is jumping out of the trap. I know its a cycle, I know its a trap. I know he likes to see that I care and that this hurts me. Every time I gain enough confidence to jump out, I somehow stumble back in. Which then gives him more leverage.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

Sometimes sitches like yours are a more complicated because they are not obvious or black and white. He didn't up and leave, he doens't seem to be having an active A with her, and he isn't threatening D. That doesn't mean he is being a good H and giving you what this M needs. When someone is all in, they listen and deeply care for their S and they will do whatever it takes to mend it. Including cut off all contact with a coworker, change jobs, and provide full transparency. I don't see him doing that. I don't see him doing much of anything.


And he isn't doing much of anything. He's said he will find a new job, but he's applied to minimal jobs.. says it takes a lot of time. He will provide transparency when I ask.. but I've already told him I would prefer if he came to me to just show me. I hate having to build up the confidence to ask to see if something is going on. and from what I've read recently, everything sounds ok.. But like I've said I don't know if that just means he's gotten better at hiding things.

Things are "fine" for him when we just ignore everything and pretend like nothing has happened. But when I don't see any action I get upset and I cannot understand why he wants to say one thing, and then think he doesn't have to follow through or do anything.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

I don't know if your H is as aware as he says he is or is somewhat oblivious to how inappropriate his Rs are with women. He lacks boundaries and overall respect for you and the M. The thing is, I am not sure you can convince him. I tried for many years and my H did not get it! He thought he was just a nice guy, kinda felt sorry for this lady, and it did make his ego feel good.


Thats the other thing. I don't know what his intentions are. I don't know if he realizes he's disrespecting me and just doesn't care, or if he doesn't fully realize and things that he should be allowed to act however he wanted to when our relationship was secure. I don't think he fully understands that we are rocky ground and you shouldn't be acting in a certain way to continue to make the ground rocky, but instead you need to put in effort to straighten it out.

I feel like that's the other reason why I'm stuck in this still. I'm waiting for him to make the change. I want to know that I did everything I could to fix this... And I do feel like my impatience could be an issue.. But I also feel like there is clear tools and procedures required to start fixing things... But it's like he's not grabbing them.

I got upset with him today because he said Friday he was going to apply for jobs, he didn't. He says I might get to it today... What?! Might? I said I'm tired of him always finding something else to do instead of working on what is going to help us. He said I was being "too much" and that nothing has happened to make me upset. I said you're right, nothing has happened to make me not be upset, because you aren't doing the things you said you would. He's tried to come "talk" to me twice to see if I'm still angry about it, and I am. So he keeps saying that he doesn't know why I'm grumpy... and then when I start to reiterate my reason, he walks away. I know he's just waiting for the time that I sweep it under the rug and ignore things.

I know harassing him about jobs will not make him do it. I know reiterating what I've said and what we've agreed to will not make him do it. I know there is nothing I can say or do to change his mind. So I told him to either find another job, or find an apartment. He said he'll apply for jobs... 2 hours later, he hasn't done either.

I'm just so tired of being treated like a second thought.

Thank you all for your advice.
Posted By: SarahW - 04/15/18 09:44 AM
Originally Posted By: annab74
Spouses who are genuinely sorry and remorseful don't go back on what they say or try to bargain or push boundaries and see what they can get away with. When they are truly sorry and willing to do the work, they will be the one going above and beyond to ensure your comfort level, to make you feel secure, and do whatever it takes to keep you. Anything less than that is a spouse who is just cake eating...wanting the benefits you provide, without giving you the loyalty and commitment you deserve. Being willing to accept scraps of attention in hopes it will become more only emboldens a WS to keep doing just what he's doing. Who wouldn't want to have the best of both worlds when there are no consequences for their actions? This is the time to draw serious boundaries. Expect better for yourself.


Yes, I totally agree. To me if I was on his end, everything seems so clear. This is what he told me, this is what I need to do, and I would do it if I wanted to make sure things worked out.
I don't think he's over his own issues. But I refuse to have "explore" again, when he did that in January and wanted to come home immediately.
I don't know what the best method would be for him to understand the boundaries and understand what he needs to do.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: - 04/16/18 03:39 AM
Enforce the boundaries and consequences that is what it takes.

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