Hello All,
I have been lurking here for a few weeks reading and trying to learn what I can do to save my marriage. Every situation is different, so I decided to jump in, tell my story and see if I can get some guidance, so here it goes…
I find myself in a situation that I never thought I would be in (something I’m sure everyone else here has said) and I need advice on how to proceed. That situation, of course, is that my wife is cheating on me.
I will keep this as short as possible, but I do want to get all the facts out there.
First, a little background:
My wife and I have been married for 25 years, together 33 – we were high school sweethearts. We have always had a very loving, affectionate relationship. Not to say that everything has been perfectly smooth, but we have always worked out our problems and moved on.
I earn the paycheck, she is a stay-at-home mom (what she always wanted to do) who homeschools our children. She has a dominating personality and is not afraid of confrontation, but is very outgoing and people immediately like her. I am a more laid back, go with the flow type of person, but can be very assertive when necessary.
As I said, I work a lot. I’m either working at my job or on the house we are building on my days off. At my job I am busy from the time I get there to the time I leave, often eating lunch on the run because of time. At home I am either catching up on chores or working on the house, both of which I get no help on. No one’s fault there, I just have no one who can help with the type of work that needs to be done. Because of this, I get almost no down time and am exhausted a lot.
My wife volunteers at a youth organization which my son belongs to, which can take a lot of time and effort. The man she is cheating with is the leader of this organization and they often work closely together. He is divorced with kids. He is a likeable fellow and good with kids.
We are in the process of finishing building a house, which I have done 99% of the work on. It was started many years ago and we were caught in the housing market crash. Because of this, we do not have a “real” mortgage on the house so the house payments are almost double what they should be. Needless to say, money is tight. I have been very focused on finishing it to relieve the financial pressure, but maintaining the house as well as finishing it alone has proven to be a huge challenge. I mention this because I believe it is playing in to what is going on.
We are both Christian, but her ties to Faith run much deeper than mine, so something like this is completely out of character for her and goes against what she believes in. She told me before we ever got married that it is “death before divorce.” She has maintained that motto since.
The story:
As I said, we have always had a very loving, affectionate relationship. So much so, other people would comment on how we were together and they envied us.
At the beginning of November is when things went south. On Thursday, my wife told me she was going to the movies with my daughters. No problem, have fun. Friday she text me reminding me that she was going out with her friends (one of which is having very serious marital issues and the other couldn’t find a decent guy to save her life). I responded “Ok. Will I see you tomorrow?” She said “Don’t we have a date? Just you and me, Babe.” I thought we were on for the next night.
When I got home from work on Saturday, she was in the kitchen working on some things she likes to do. I greet her and got a very cold response. I ask what’s wrong, she says “nothing.” From that point she stops talking to me.
The next day, still not talking to me, I again ask what’s wrong. “Nothing” again. This continues for a few days, so I stop asking her what is wrong. One thing I have learned about her is that if she is mad and you keep asking why, she will get even angrier and withdraw.
Ten days after this started, she sends me a text out of the blue that says that she “doesn’t want to be hurt or mad any more. I’m just tired,” then follows it up with a few texts about one of our daughters. I reply that I don’t know what she means by that. She stopped talking to me and I don’t know what I did. She replies “Yeah, I know you don’t.” She then questions whether I mean it when I tell her I love her in the morning and at night, or if it is just part of my routine (I tell her a minimum twice a day that I love her and there is a reason for that). I assure her that I love her and that I mean it. That’s where the conversation stops. When I get home, I could not get any follow up from her.
It was at this point she stopped doing anything for me. She would always make a lunch for me to take to work, make dinner and at least leave a plate in the microwave for me, and wash my clothes with everyone else’s. She does none of those things now. I’m lucky if she even makes enough dinner for me to have some. Lately she makes just enough for her and the kids. None of these things are her responsibility, I know. She’s not my Mom. I just shows that she is detaching from me.
Over the next couple of weeks, I ask occasionaly what is wrong, and always get some variation of “Nothing,” “I don’t want to talk about it,” or no response at all. After a while I feel like I am wasting my time, so I stop asking. This drags out in to December. I keep going about my normal business, trying to engage her in conversation, but she is having none of it. At this point she has “gone dark,” as I believe people here put it, and will only speak to me when necessary.
I was noticing changes in her behavior and started to get suspicious. Other than “going dark,” she was hiding her phone screen from me, texting at all hours of the day and night, and taking her phone with her from room to room. She had started sleeping on the couch, would leave the house without telling me and certainly would not tell me where she was going – even if she was going with the kids, which was most of the time. She has never been a big drinker, but she has been drinking more.
Three days before Christmas she sends a text to me about something going on at home. During this text I say “You really need to tell me what is going on.” She replies “Not much to tell.” and tells me not to get her anything for Christmas. We talk back and forth a little bit, and in a nutshell, she says that she “can’t do this anymore,” she has been lying to herself, she doesn’t feel loved or wanted, I don’t compliment her, it has been going on for years and years, we’ve talked about it but it never changes, she keeps it inside because she knows it will never change, we were just kids when we met and we grew apart, the house is killing her but I would never give it up and that she knew it was over when I stopped caring why she was mad.
I reply to most of her comments, explaining and telling her I love her, I hug, kiss and tell her I love her so much because I want to make sure she knows because it was completely absent from my family growing up, reminding her how much I told her how great and young she looked when she lost weight, I call her “Beautiful” constantly, she had been telling me for years how wonderful I was and how well I treated her, so how was I supposed to know I wasn’t being the husband she wanted? I basically tell her that I think we can make it and that we need to start communicating more.
When I get home that night I try to talk to her, but she won’t, saying that she does not want to talk before Christmas because it would be “too sad.” I ask if she is going to ask for a divorce, she replies “I don’t know. Can we afford it?” I had my suspicions before, but at this point I knew something was up.
Over the next few days I tried to talk to her, but she refused until after Christmas. At no point were we fighting. She allowed me to give her hugs and a kiss on the cheek, but would not kiss me or hug me back, responding to my “I Love You’s” with “Ok” or something similar (she had been doing this for weeks).
Christmas day went smoothly. I received nothing from her and I gave her five or six gifts, which she thanked me for. Later in the day I noticed she had made a special trip to buy coffee for me, which I asked her to do, but only if she was going to be at that store and not to go out of her way. I thanked her and gave her a hug. When I tried to kiss her, she turned away, so I put my hands on her head and started kissing her whole face, working my way down to her neck. She giggled and laughed like she always does, so she seemed to enjoy it. This confused the heck out of me, but maybe I was crazy and was making progress.
The week leading up to New Year’s things seemed to be getting better. We were talking and laughing more, but it was still mostly “just business.” We never had that talk we were going to have, and still haven’t, because of my work schedule and her being out every night with either our kids or her friends (clearly trying to avoid me). I tried to schedule a dinner “date” with her for New Year’s Eve and then we could come back and spend the evening with our youngest kids. She said she had plans to go out, but maybe we could go for dinner. On New Year’s Eve I asked if we were still on, but she said her plans changed and that she wouldn’t have time.
She went out about 8pm and came home shortly after 2am a wee bit tipsy. I greeted her, asked if she had fun and continued to play “Happy Husband.” When she went in the bedroom to change, I followed her and gave her a hug. She hugged me back! Another sign I was getting through! We watched some TV for a while and she told my daughter and myself about her night and the friends from High School she had seen (Did I mention that she discovered Facebook in September and has been digging up old friends?) Before I went to bed, I knelt down, like I do every night, and gave her a hug, kiss and an “I love you.” This time I would only accept a kiss on the lips. She laughed and jokingly called me an “ass.” More progress! At least I think.
Since then, things have been somewhat better. We are joking more, I have made her smile some and she has even let me give her a back rub, although last night when I offered she said she didn’t know who I was and that I didn’t give back rubs. She shut me down. But mostly she has been emotionally detached, especially in text messages.
Last night, before I went to bed, I gave her a hug and kiss while she was lying on the couch. I told her I love her and that I was not giving up on her. Her reply? “We’ll see.”
She is sending out a lot of mixed signals:
We purchased a side of beef which we picked up the same day she told me she knew it was over. She got a text from the lady selling it saying that there was more available because someone did not pick theirs up, but by the time we got back to the lady it was gone. My wife said she was sad because we could have used it. Why would we need it if she is leaving me?
On Christmas day she said that we needed new water filters in a five gallon unit we have in the kitchen. These things are expensive, but last a long time. She said it as if WE were going to need them in the future.
She said we need to clean and seal the counters so they don’t get ruined. If we are splitting we would lose the house, which she knows. Why waste the time and energy?
She allows me to put my hands under her shirt when I hug her to touch bare skin and to nibble/kiss her neck. I’ve pinched her rear end as well a few times without complaint. If she was truly as gone as she says, wouldn’t that be off limits?
She cooked bacon last Sunday morning for some soup she was making. She then made some eggs just for me. Not for anyone else. Huh?
The other day she said I was trying to kill her. I replied “No. I don’t have any life insurance on you.” She then said that we really need to look in to getting some. If we are not married, you are not going to be the beneficiary, so why?
All of this plus more has occurred since the “it’s over” statement. It is almost like she still sees “us” in the future at times. Needless to say I’m confused.
The evidence I have that she is cheating:
I don’t have any “smoking gun” evidence, but I do have quite a bit of circumstantial.
She has had a major change in behavior and emotional detachment. She is texting and using Facebook at all hours of the day and night. Literally. I have often gotten up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom or get a drink and she is texting. I have even seen her texting when I get up in the morning to go to work. I have seen the name on the screen several times, and it is always the OM. During these texts she will sometimes get one of those “flattered” smiles on her face like someone said something to make her happy.
I have seen some texts between her and the OM. There is a lot of suggestion and innuendo, but nothing that directly says “we are having sex.” Putting it all together indicates that they are though. A lot the texts are about personal things in their life and she mentions “their beer.” The OM at one point says he feels like he is responsible for this. There is also a text between her and her friend that is having marital issues that refers to the OM by his initial and tells my wife to “be careful.”
In my mind this is at least an emotional affair, but I am 99% sure it is sexual too.
What I have done to combat this:
Since I started getting suspicious shortly before Christmas, I have been playing “Happy Husband.” I have been maintaining a positive attitude (at least around her), smiling and joking. I say nothing negative at all. I have been going out of my way to make her feel appreciated and loved. Hugs, kisses, nibbles on the neck (which is still making her giggle), and a lot of “I love yous.”
I have been offering to do things for her, like go to the store when I am out, do some of her “chores” around the house, get her food or drink from the kitchen and make myself generally more available to her.
I contact her once or twice a day just to let her know I am thinking of her. I bought her flowers “just because.”
This is so out of character for my wife. Her beliefs and hatred for adulterers and adultery runs deep, so she is the last person I would ever expect to do this. We have an OW in the family – my father’s girlfriend. He was with her when my parents were separated, but never divorced. My mother has been gone seven years now and my wife still will not talk to or even acknowledge this OW. That’s how much she despises this behavior. Yet here we are…
So there it is. That is what is going on. I’ve tried to keep emotions out of it and give you just the facts as I see them. I know both of us had a hand in creating this mess and it is going to take both of us to clean it up.
I want to save this marriage, so I need to talk to her soon. I still see something in her eyes and smile, so I think there is still time to save it, but I am running out of time. This is where I need your help.
How should I approach it? Should I take her to dinner and talk in a neutral site, or lock us in the bedroom at home? Since I have only circumstantial evidence and nothing physical to present her, should I mention the affair, or wait for her to say something? What if she won’t?
I am completely clueless on this, so I am asking for your guidance. I don’t want to lose her or my family. They are the only things that keep me going.
Please ask for any clarification you need. Saturday is my target date for the conversation, so any help you could give would be greatly appreciated.
Sorry about the length of this post. I tend to over analyze things and give too much explanation. As I have very little time to keep or maintain friendships I have no one to talk to, so getting this off my chest has been a little therapeutic for me.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Rminer,
I feel for you man. Sorry you are in this mess, but glad you are here. I think it wold be best to not confront your W right now. I think that advice comes from the videos I've watched by MWD. It would probably only make things worse.
My first exposure to DB was the Last Resort Technique (LRT).
https://divorcebustingtraining.mykajabi.com/store/Q5UUUmn4 If you look around on Youtube and the Internet, you can find discount codes that save some money on LRT. At one point in that program, MWD says "you don't have the leverage." That's the reason not to confront your W. It will make the OM look better. Your W is already confused and feeling guilty. So if you push her, those feelings get worse, and then she's likely to get mad and/or pull away.
I've seen that in myself, where I would get mad at my W for little stupid stuff after I used porn. It makes no logical sense that it happens, but guilt plays tricks on emotions, so the offender can't accept him or herself, and the easiest way to deal with that is for the offender to pull away from his or her mate. Emotions and brains do crazy stuff to rationalize things when we cheat, including lying to ourselves.
I think it's important to have patience at times like this.
And that's hard, having patience when days seem long and dreary, but if you push hard, things could fall apart faster.
Remember that you don't have leverage because you are like an old reliable pickup truck, and your W just found a convertible. Convertibles are fun when you're in a midlife crisis (MLC), and your W might be in one. But affairs with convertibles often don't last, just like marital affairs. After a while, one starts to notice that convertibles have faults. They aren't warm or fun to drive in the winter. They are noisy. The OM's faults will surface eventually.
The other thing the LRT program said -- become the person who your W was attracted to in the first place. Maybe not 33 years ago, but maybe 10 or 15 years ago. Maybe that will help you. It helped me.
Your sitch might be unique, but you are not alone. That is what I learned here. I come back here every day. It helps keep me sane and grounded.
You could also find old friends to connect with, to GAL. Or hobbies. Or take your daughters out instead of your W. Or play board games with them. Don't brag about it, but show her what a reliable family man you are by bonding with your kids.
Or check out Facebook. Facebook is platonic, and it's easy to find old friends there, although the FB crowd tends to appeal more to women, and manly men don't hang there as much. My W recently posted on FB - 10 thinks that women want but would never tell their man - some were jewels, like "be proud of her; protect her (emotionally and spiritually, protect her when she can't protect herself [I'm still trying to figure that out, but you might want to acknowledge your W for her strong moral character - remind her who she really is inside, but do not point out how she's contracting that])." I think you're already doing the rest of the things... attention, intimacy, be thoughtful, accept imperfections, etc.
Read the validation cheat sheet that Cadet posted above. I need to read that over and over, so I get to the point where, when my W says our marriage has been broken for 10 years, I don't defend, I don't give a blank stare, but I say "That must be really hard for you." That's the man I want to be.
Find ways to love yourself and make yourself happy. Maybe it's fishing, or hiking, or car shows, or gun shows, or church, or yoga. You get the idea. When you're not busting your butt and your W is out, find something that makes you happy instead of waiting for her. Order the Divorce Recovery book and sit and read it.
I'm a newbie here myself. I've been here about two weeks. This is a great community. There are lots of wise old souls here. The rest of the Internet has a lot of websites selling elementary advice for marital problems, stuff that's pretty obvious. This is like graduate school.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
She is sending out a lot of mixed signals:
We purchased a side of beef which we picked up the same day she told me she knew it was over. She got a text from the lady selling it saying that there was more available because someone did not pick theirs up, but by the time we got back to the lady it was gone. My wife said she was sad because we could have used it. Why would we need it if she is leaving me?
rminer,
I'm sorry you're here. My wife sent a lot of mixed signals as well. She'd tell me that, without question, she was going to get a divorce, and shortly thereafter, she'd tell me she wanted to get new kitchen counters, put new tile in the master bathroom, replace the carpet in the family room and get another dog.
I'm not sure why they do that; they're probably not sure either. It's just speculation on my part, but I suspect they want to keep one foot in the security of the current family and husband, and another foot in the fantasy world of the affair. Apparently, having their cake and eating it too is very appealing.
I actually did some of the stuff that my wife wanted to have done to the house. But, if I had it to do over again, I'd tell her that we aren't making any changes to the house because of the pending divorce. Not only does it save you money, I think it sends a signal that you're not willing to kiss her @ss and you are willing to let her go.
The evidence I have that she is cheating:
I don’t have any “smoking gun” evidence, but I do have quite a bit of circumstantial.
She has had a major change in behavior and emotional detachment. She is texting and using Facebook at all hours of the day and night. Literally. I have often gotten up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom or get a drink and she is texting. I have even seen her texting when I get up in the morning to go to work. I have seen the name on the screen several times, and it is always the OM. During these texts she will sometimes get one of those “flattered” smiles on her face like someone said something to make her happy.
I have seen some texts between her and the OM. There is a lot of suggestion and innuendo, but nothing that directly says “we are having sex.” Putting it all together indicates that they are though. A lot the texts are about personal things in their life and she mentions “their beer.” The OM at one point says he feels like he is responsible for this. There is also a text between her and her friend that is having marital issues that refers to the OM by his initial and tells my wife to “be careful.”
In my mind this is at least an emotional affair, but I am 99% sure it is sexual too.
R,
I want to first start off by saying that I am really sorry you are here but it is the best place for you at this time. You sound like a really great family guys who has spent his life to providing for his family. I am seriously building your own house is awesome! While doing that you may have neglected your W who has now run into the arms of another man/predator. Unfortunately now a days with FB and cellphones it makes having an A a lot easier. I am sorry to break the news but your W is having at least an emotional affair (EA) but most likely at physical affair (PA). There are some who say don't out the A like Natural advised you and some who say out the A like I do. It will get worse when you out the A but it has to get worse for awhile before it gets better. Having said that do not out the affair if you are going to turn a blind eye to it. Meaning if you are going to out the A be prepared to set some boundaries. You can read about boundaries on Cadet's homework link. You can't control her and make her stop the A but you can control what you are accept. In other words are you willing to share her with another man and be in an open marriage. There are cases on here where a blind eye approach is taken and the affair just continues and the agony of the situation makes the faithful spouse look weak and [censored] the life out of him.
What I have done to combat this:
Since I started getting suspicious shortly before Christmas, I have been playing “Happy Husband.” I have been maintaining a positive attitude (at least around her), smiling and joking. I say nothing negative at all. I have been going out of my way to make her feel appreciated and loved. Hugs, kisses, nibbles on the neck (which is still making her giggle), and a lot of “I love yous.”
I have been offering to do things for her, like go to the store when I am out, do some of her “chores” around the house, get her food or drink from the kitchen and make myself generally more available to her.
I contact her once or twice a day just to let her know I am thinking of her. I bought her flowers “just because.”
Ok. This all has to stop immediately. Especially if she knows you know she is having an A this will make you look pathetic in her eyes. I know that is harsh but at this point and time you can not nice her back. I know it seems like the logical thing to do but it will actually make things worse right now.
What can you do? The opposite of what you think you should do. Give her space giver her all the space in the world. Stop pursuit immediately. Start to make a great life for you and your kids. Exercise, connect with old friends, spend time with family, read self help books, finish the house your building and definitely consider individual counseling.
You will most likely get a chance at recon but that is going to be along way down the road. You most likely can't make things better right now but you can certainly make them worse. This is probably going to be the hardest thing you will ever go through but if you do the hard work you will get through and be happy again with or w/o your W.
Print out Sandi's rules from the home work page and start implementing them immediately. We are here to help!
Good luck!
Ok. This all has to stop immediately. Especially if she knows you know she is having an A this will make you look pathetic in her eyes. I know that is harsh but at this point and time you can not nice her back. I know it seems like the logical thing to do but it will actually make things worse right now.
Agree with this completely.
Also, what are you doing for GAL??
She has a dominating personality and is not afraid of confrontation, but is very outgoing and people immediately like her. I am a more laid back, go with the flow type of person, but can be very assertive when necessary.
I dare say that this is the foundation of a lot more issues in your relationship, than you may realize. A W who has a dominating personality who is M to an easy going H, can began to challenge him more & more. She wants to see him stand up to her, so she pushes and tests him. Women want a man who is stronger than she is, and your easy going manner can be mistaken for weakness.
We are both Christian, but her ties to Faith run much deeper than mine, so something like this is completely out of character for her and goes against what she believes in. She told me before we ever got married that it is “death before divorce.” She has maintained that motto since.
I hope you will read my threads on the wayward W's mindset.
When I got home from work on Saturday, she was in the kitchen working on some things she likes to do. I greet her and got a very cold response. I ask what’s wrong, she says “nothing.” From that point she stops talking to me.
The next day, still not talking to me, I again ask what’s wrong. “Nothing” again. This continues for a few days, so I stop asking her what is wrong. One thing I have learned about her is that if she is mad and you keep asking why, she will get even angrier and withdraw.
So, this is an example of the typical interaction when your W won't talk. You assume she is mad, and instead of trying to talk to her about her feelings....you leave her alone until she gets over it. Do you also assume she is mad at you, although you don't have a clue as to why? If I am correct about this, put this tip under your hat for now. In the future when she displays this behavior, don't ask her, "What's wrong". Instead, let her know that you can tell something is bothering her. "You seem troubled about something, I am here to listen, if you feel like talking about it". Then, if she does talk, don't make the mistake a lot of men make, and tell her how to fix her problem. Just listen. Like I said, remember this in the future. Right now, you may need to take actions that seem very foreign to you. I'll get into that in a minute.
Ten days after this started, she sends me a text out of the blue that says that she “doesn’t want to be hurt or mad any more. I’m just tired,” then follows it up with a few texts about one of our daughters. I reply that I don’t know what she means by that. She stopped talking to me and I don’t know what I did. She replies “Yeah, I know you don’t.” She then questions whether I mean it when I tell her I love her in the morning and at night, or if it is just part of my routine (I tell her a minimum twice a day that I love her and there is a reason for that). I assure her that I love her and that I mean it. That’s where the conversation stops. When I get home, I could not get any follow up from her.
You didn't realize it, but she is just looking for an excuse.....but the real issue is that she has another man in her head, so she needs to find justification for being unhappy, hurt, or whatever. And, she needs to blame you. This was sort of like giving you notice that she is emotionally done with the MR.
It was at this point she stopped doing anything for me.
It's her way of emotionally divorcing you. She's going out with others, she's given you notice, stopped talking with you, and now she has stopped doing her usual wifely duties.
We talk back and forth a little bit, and in a nutshell, she says that she “can’t do this anymore,” she has been lying to herself, she doesn’t feel loved or wanted, I don’t compliment her, it has been going on for years and years, we’ve talked about it but it never changes, she keeps it inside because she knows it will never change, we were just kids when we met and we grew apart, the house is killing her but I would never give it up and that she knew it was over when I stopped caring why she was mad.
Her justification ^^^^^^. She is cheating on you, so in her mindset, she has to find a reason that justifies her getting another man, instead of staying loyal to the one she M.
All of this plus more has occurred since the “it’s over” statement. It is almost like she still sees “us” in the future at times. Needless to say I’m confused.
You see mixed signals b/c you are trying to logically see a person who would act a certain way if they wanted a D. Her mindset is not logical. Her actions are not logical. She'll say things that are not logical. Don't forget this, or you'll go crazy trying to figure her out.
What I have done to combat this:
Since I started getting suspicious shortly before Christmas, I have been playing “Happy Husband.” I have been maintaining a positive attitude (at least around her), smiling and joking. I say nothing negative at all. I have been going out of my way to make her feel appreciated and loved. Hugs, kisses, nibbles on the neck (which is still making her giggle), and a lot of “I love yous.”
I have been offering to do things for her, like go to the store when I am out, do some of her “chores” around the house, get her food or drink from the kitchen and make myself generally more available to her.
I contact her once or twice a day just to let her know I am thinking of her. I bought her flowers “just because.”
To a M man, this is the logical action to take to win back the love of his W. Unfortunately, after a woman has closed her heart for her H and opened it for another man......this above actions only push her farther away from her H. You see, you have been trying to
prove how much you love her, thinking it would fix the problem. At the moment, she really doesn't care how you love her. She has emotionally divorced you. Her head is filled with OM, and he is the one who makes her feel alive.
Sorry, I know those words must hurt, but I want to talk straight to you. I was
very much like your W. My H was not meeting my intimate emotional needs that only a H can do for his W. Years of resentment had turned into disrespect for him. I felt dead on the inside. I did not go looking for an affair. However, under the right circumstances and having a rebellious heart toward my H....it happened. It never became physical skin on skin, but you might say we participated in the act via modern apps. Most men worry more about their W taking it to a PA. What they don't realize is that for women, an EA is just as strong. B/c with an EA, it's all about her emotions being fed by this other guy. He can live long distance, but as long as he's telling her what she wants to hear....her brain is being flooded with the same chemicals of falling in love.
So, buckle up for the ride of your life. It's not too late to turn things around and save your M. You'll hear advice that seems harsh and totally opposite of what your feelings tell you to do. I hope you will read my thread on Help for the Newcomer H with a WW.
BTW, that was over ten years ago when I joined the board as a WW. My H and I are still together. The reason I continue to stick around the board are people like you. I hope to pass along what I've learned. As long as you'll listen, I have a lot to say.
Post often and read the homework Cadet gave you.
rminer:
Please read and re read what Sandi posted. Her writing has given me immense insight into my wife's mindset. You will hate what she has to say but she is very likely right about all of it. All of it.
You are going to have to have a crazy amount of patience, and you are going to have to learn to love yourself to get through this. It is one of the hardest things you will ever do but you can make it through.
[quote=Natural]Rminer,
I feel for you man. Sorry you are in this mess, but glad you are here. I think it wold be best to not confront your W right now. I think that advice comes from the videos I've watched by MWD. It would probably only make things worse.
Are you saying that you don't think I should talk to her about "us" at all like we said we were going to do, or I shouldn't confront about the affair?
Remember that you don't have leverage because you are like an old reliable pickup truck, and your W just found a convertible. Convertibles are fun when you're in a midlife crisis (MLC), and your W might be in one. But affairs with convertibles often don't last, just like marital affairs. After a while, one starts to notice that convertibles have faults. They aren't warm or fun to drive in the winter. They are noisy. The OM's faults will surface eventually.
Yes, the whole family has felt she has been in a MLC for over a year now. She has not been acting her age at all. Never dreamed it would come to this though.
She has complained about the OM many times in the past for promising to set things up for the kids but never following through. He is really the last person I thought she would ever pick...
I appreciate the words of encouragement, Natural. I'm sure I will be here often.
Do you recommend the DB or DR book to start with? Which do you think would apply more at this point?
Or are they one and the same?
My thoughts have been that she thinks that she will be walking away with the house, so she will be "stocking up" before she completely ends it.
I never considered that she is as confused as I am. Thanks for that insight.
Predator! I like that!
When you say "out" the A, do you mean tell her I know or tell other people about it. I'm not ready for the embarrassment of other people knowing, so I'm not going to be mentioning it to anyone.
No, an open marriage is NOT an option. It has to be me or him. I just have to figure out how to make sure she decides it will be me.
Ok. This all has to stop immediately. Especially if she knows you know she is having an A this will make you look pathetic in her eyes. I know that is harsh but at this point and time you can not nice her back. I know it seems like the logical thing to do but it will actually make things worse right now.
What can you do? The opposite of what you think you should do. Give her space giver her all the space in the world. Stop pursuit immediately. Start to make a great life for you and your kids. Exercise, connect with old friends, spend time with family, read self help books, finish the house your building and definitely consider individual counseling.
You will most likely get a chance at recon but that is going to be along way down the road. You most likely can't make things better right now but you can certainly make them worse. This is probably going to be the hardest thing you will ever go through but if you do the hard work you will get through and be happy again with or w/o your W.
Print out Sandi's rules from the home work page and start implementing them immediately. We are here to help!
My problem with this is that she already says I don't love/want/need her. Wouldn't that just be confirming it to her?
I've read the rules. Most of them are going to kill me!
Also, what are you doing for GAL??
Haven't even thought about GAL yet. I haven't had one of my own in so long I'm not even sure where to start with that. I'm so consumed with figuring out a game plan for getting my W back, I don't know that I could GAL until if figure it out.
I dare say that this is the foundation of a lot more issues in your relationship, than you may realize. A W who has a dominating personality who is M to an easy going H, can began to challenge him more & more. She wants to see him stand up to her, so she pushes and tests him. Women want a man who is stronger than she is, and your easy going manner can be mistaken for weakness.
sandi2,
So you are saying I have no gonads? You sure know how to give a guy confidence!
I do stand up to her, but most of my work day is spent standing up to people. I do tend to pick and choose my battles at home. Maybe a little too much? I do get what you are saying though.
How would you reccommend I stand up to her at this point without making the situation worse?
I hope you will read my threads on the wayward W's mindset.
I will look for them tonight.
You assume she is mad, and instead of trying to talk to her about her feelings....you leave her alone until she gets over it. Do you also assume she is mad at you, although you don't have a clue as to why?
It is pretty easy to tell when she is mad at me - I will be the only one she is not talking to. It doesn't happen very often, but it does happen. We rarely argue. When she upset, I don't usually ask "what's wrong?" I will ask if something is bothering her or did I do something to upset her. You are right though, I don't really ask about her feelings. I try to get her to tell me what is wrong so I can fix it.
It's her way of emotionally divorcing you. She's going out with others, she's given you notice, stopped talking with you, and now she has stopped doing her usual wifely duties.
Her justification ^^^^^^. She is cheating on you, so in her mindset, she has to find a reason that justifies her getting another man, instead of staying loyal to the one she M.
How do I get her emotionally engaged again and change her mindset? Do I just wait it out?
To a M man, this is the logical action to take to win back the love of his W. Unfortunately, after a woman has closed her heart for her H and opened it for another man......this above actions only push her farther away from her H. You see, you have been trying to prove how much you love her, thinking it would fix the problem. At the moment, she really doesn't care how you love her. She has emotionally divorced you. Her head is filled with OM, and he is the one who makes her feel alive.
By not telling her and showing her that I love her, wouldn't that just be confirming what she is saying? She already has said I don't want/love/care. After I have been telling her and trying to show her I love her at least twice a day every day for all of these years (I have NEVER missed a day), it would seem that she would just use that action to say "See? I told you so!"
If you are recommending "going dark," which is what it appears she has done to me, it seems that it would just feed in to her notions that I have stopped caring.
I hope you will read my thread on Help for the Newcomer H with a WW
I've read it, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. It is completely foreign and makes very little sense to me, but I will trust you on that and try to understand it as hard as it is.
I do have a question for you, since you seem to know this topic well and were once a WW.
Should I try to get my W to sit down and talk about why she got mad at me and our R since she said we would after Christmas, or would I do more damage? I was pushing for it before Christmas, so I don't want her to think I don't care about having the discussion.
If I do, should I bring up the affair without any concrete proof, or should I let her spill the beans/coax her in to it?
Should I get proof and risk losing any trust she has left in me?
If you don't recommend I do, should I at least tell her I want to talk about "us" when she is ready and let her know I will be there?
I very confused at the moment and am starting to go in to panic mode. Any advice is welcome.
Sorry, I know those words must hurt, but I want to talk straight to you.
Yes, they do hurt very much, but hey, it is the reality of the situation.
Don't be afraid to be direct with me. As I said, I tend to over analyze things, so the less ambiguity the better. Tell me if I'm doing wrong, being an idiot or complete jerk. I need honest answers right now and I have very thick skin.
Thanks for the help!
Thanks, Joe
I have read it at least five times. Still don't understand how she could be thinking that way. Just doesn't make sense doing the opposite of what my gut is telling me.
Trust is not my strong suit, but I have a feeling I will have to take a leap of faith this time.
Ok. This all has to stop immediately. Especially if she knows you know she is having an A this will make you look pathetic in her eyes. I know that is harsh but at this point and time you can not nice her back. I know it seems like the logical thing to do but it will actually make things worse right now.
What can you do? The opposite of what you think you should do. Give her space giver her all the space in the world. Stop pursuit immediately. Start to make a great life for you and your kids. Exercise, connect with old friends, spend time with family, read self help books, finish the house your building and definitely consider individual counseling.
You will most likely get a chance at recon but that is going to be along way down the road. You most likely can't make things better right now but you can certainly make them worse. This is probably going to be the hardest thing you will ever go through but if you do the hard work you will get through and be happy again with or w/o your W.
Print out Sandi's rules from the home work page and start implementing them immediately. We are here to help!
My problem with this is that she already says I don't love/want/need her. Wouldn't that just be confirming it to her?
That’s all BS she is telling you as an excuse to why she is having an affair.
No I mean out the affair to just her and let her no what your boundaries are. I Ihighly recommend you read up on boundaries and discuss it here first. If you are going to set them you have to be prepared to enforce them if broken.
I have to say you are handling this well most guys are a complete mess when they get here!
Do you recommend the DB or DR book to start with? Which do you think would apply more at this point?
Or are they one and the same?
DR is an updated version of DB, reading both is a great idea but I would as a minimum read DR.
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I will read up on that a bit first.
I have to say you are handling this well most guys are a complete mess when they get here!
Thanks, but I am a mess on the inside. Don't think I haven't lost it once or twice. With the household I grew up in, I learned long ago how to control my emotions. I have become very good at focusing on a task and blocking the emotional side out when necessary.
Just trying to keep myself together for the kids, although I do think at least two of them know what is going on.
RM:
We have all been in the same place.
You have to take a step back. Replace YOU with HER when she tells you things. She will project her feelings.
You have to do the opposite of what you think is right, right now. You want to give her a hug? She will hate it. You want to remind her of good times? She will say something awful.
So stop it. What you want to do will NOT bring about the response you expect and only frustrate you.
I do stand up to her, but most of my work day is spent standing up to people. I do tend to pick and choose my battles at home. Maybe a little too much? I do get what you are saying though.
Good, I'm glad you understand. And, I understand having to deal with people on your job all day, and just wanting a little peace when you get home.
Well, I would begin with not accepting any of her outward disrespect toward you, especially in front of your children. If she puts you down, makes demands, bosses you around, talks down to you, raises her voice, curses, mocks you, makes you the butt of a joke in front of others, calls you names, stomps her feet or snaps her fingers at you, talks at you through the kids ("Tell your father such & such") when she is right there in the same room......are some examples of showing disrespect. Many H's are so conditioned to behavior like this, until they act as if they can't see she is disrespecting him. Over time, her level of disrespect increases, and if the H does nothing about it, the MR will suffer. Woman was designed to where her loving feelings for her H is tied to her respect for him. (You can read more in my WW threads.) If you know how to handle bullies at work, you'll know how to stand up to your W. She won't like it, b/c she's gone so many years doing it, but if you tell her you won't be talked to in that manner (or whatever she's doing), she will respect you for standing up to her.
There is a link about boundaries in the homework Cadet sent you. Read it carefully, b/c you need to understand the difference in boundaries from ultimatums; how to state a boundary; and how to enforce it. With most WW's I've read about, the H has to be prepared to enforce his boundary if it's not honored.
From this point forward, I hope your actions will be from the standpoint of how you can gain the respect of your W. If you gain her respect, you'll gain her love. In everything you do, every interaction with her......ask yourself if she can see a strong, confident man. A WW respects one thing......strength. So, instead of trying to prove how much you love her.....you need to prove your male dominance.....as the head of your home, the H, and the father. You are the leader at your address. One of the biggest reasons a W loses respect for her H is his lack of male dominance. That doesn't mean you become a bully. It means you start showing your children the role of the man in the home. Don't leave all the decisions up to your W. Don't give in to everything she wants, just to keep her in a better mood. A WW hates passivity in a man. It's just a guess that with her dominating personality, you have given her the rule of house and she makes most every decision around the home and kids.....and maybe more, while you do your thing when you come home from work.
You will be required to do things that feel completely opposite of what you've heard or read in some magazine article or the latest book about how to have a more loving MR. By the time people get to this board, their MR is in crisis. Your W is not who you thought she was, nor who you want her to be. Your actions and interactions with her can heavily influence the outcome of this crisis.
How do I get her emotionally engaged again and change her mindset? Do I just wait it out?
No, you don't just wait it out. I address your question in my WW threads.
By not telling her and showing her that I love her, wouldn't that just be confirming what she is saying? She already has said I don't want/love/care. After I have been telling her and trying to show her I love her at least twice a day every day for all of these years (I have NEVER missed a day), it would seem that she would just use that action to say "See? I told you so!"
This is a common concern newcomer LBH's have. Let me try to give a short explanation. The complaints she may have given you, probably come from her unfulfilled emotional needs in the past. But currently, another man is filling those emotional needs. You are not to compete with another man for your own W. Men often get into that "winning the girl" competitive thinking.....and it's not how you need to handle the sitch with your W. I understand how you want to fix the problem and start jumping through rings of fire to get her to change her mind. But it won't happen the way you are currently operating. The more you try to romance her, buy flowers, do more housework, make brownie points with her......the less interested she will be in you. She may use the old complaints as her current reasons......but that's b/c she can't tell you the truth. She is wayward and has allowed another man into the M.
If you are recommending "going dark," which is what it appears she has done to me, it seems that it would just feed in to her notions that I have stopped caring.
No, actually I don't encourage anyone to go dark as long as they are living under the same roof. That's just me, but going dark is like falling off the planet. Kind of difficult when you share children.
However, I do encourage you to follow the 37 rules. If you have questions about any of them, please ask.
You must get past your fear that she may think you don't care. You must get past your fear that she may leave the M. Maybe I should say, do it in spite of the fear. IMHO, the number one problem I see with newcomer LBH's is their fear of losing the W. That fear will paralyze you if you don't get a handle on it quickly. And besides, she isn't too worried if you still care about her. In fact, she is not worried she could lose you due to her affair. Would it be a deal breaker for you if she doesn't end the affair?
I've read it, and I'm trying to wrap my head around it. It is completely foreign and makes very little sense to me, but I will trust you on that and try to understand it as hard as it is.
Well, I'm not the best writer for sure, but I'm sorry it made no sense. Are you referring to my description of a wayward wife, or how a H should respond to his WW? Please ask questions about anything that doesn't make sense. There are several threads, and the last page gives the link to the next thread.
It's difficult, for me, to cover everything in just a handful of posts. So, I'm not trying to ignore or skip over your questions. It just takes time. That's one reason I decided to write those threads.
BTW, don't repeat to your W what you read on the board. Unless you are told to say specific words to her, please don't try repeating something that you think is profound......b/c it won't have that affect on her. It won't make any sense to her. That's when WW's start saying the H is fake and isn't talking naturally.
Well, I'm not the best writer for sure, but I'm sorry it made no sense. Are you referring to my description of a wayward wife, or how a H should respond to his WW? Please ask questions about anything that doesn't make sense. There are several threads, and the last page gives the link to the next thread.
It's not your writing. It's the concept of what to do and what you say she is thinking. It seems completely backwards to me, and I don't understand how someone could risk destroying their family like this. In one of her texts she told the OM that "everyone is going to hate me after this," so she knows the potential consequences.
It's difficult, for me, to cover everything in just a handful of posts. So, I'm not trying to ignore or skip over your questions. It just takes time. That's one reason I decided to write those threads.
I know you answer a lot of questions on here, so I do appreciate the time you are giving me.
One thing you didn't answer though. Would it be wise to try to talk to her about "us," or the A (without proof)? Should I just let her know I will talk when she is ready and let her come to me?
One thing you didn't answer though. Would it be wise to try to talk to her about "us," or the A (without proof)? Should I just let her know I will talk when she is ready and let her come to me?
No it wouldn't. She'll come to you if she'll come to you. No R convos. But that's just my opinion.
Well thanks, that helps me to hear you say it. I know it makes no sense to you, but if you will always remember that her thoughts are not logical. That's why we say not to believe anything she says, and only half of what you see with your own eyes. BTW, that is a metaphor. If you can get your head around the fact she is not logical, then that might help you.
The next thing that may aide you in understanding her mindset, is that she is completely selfish. If she cannot benefit from a situation in some manner, she's not interested. Selfishness is her main motivator. Even if she was never self centered in the past, she is now.
You just have to continue to remind yourself that she is not the girl you M.
One thing you didn't answer though. Would it be wise to try to talk to her about "us," or the A (without proof)? Should I just let her know I will talk when she is ready and let her come to me?
I always thought issues could be worked through if people would just talk it out. But guess what? I was wrong! Although you will be tempted to have a relationship discussion, don't do it. Know why? B/c the LBS never accomplishes anything by talking to the wayward spouse. It is a complete waste of time, and can even cause the sitch to be set back. He may feel emotionally better afterwards, but she'll pull away the next day. All the WW understands is action. She won't hear what you say, but she watch your actions.
Let your actions be your conversation. Never confront her just to let her know that
you know what she's doing. Not unless you have a plan of action to follow. B/c if she knows that you know she's in an affair....and yet you are sticking around.....then her disrespect goes through the roof. You can't reason with her, and by trying to do so only makes you appear as though you are trying to change her mind. She will be highly resistant to your persuasion.
Continue to read. Set personal goals. When you get enough information, you can put together a plan of action. But the first step is getting informed. Don't jump into anything you don't understand. Too many H's acted before they understood the ramifications.....and then suffered the consequences. Don't make matters worse by not knowing what you are doing.
Have you read the 37 rules? Any questions?
I think reading about DBing detaching, and setting boundaries is something you need to do right away. IMHO, those are more important than trying to read through everyone's thread. Don't have the idea that some of those links don't apply to your sitch.
I am reading here. A LOT.
I have read your 37 rules. That is the backwards part to me. I don't have any questions yet, but I will let you know.
I actually "started" implementing them today. I did not contact her at all today. She did text me about some things at home and I gave only the necessary info. to end the communication.
The thing that makes me the most nervous about it is that she won't know WHY I am doing it if we don't have the R discussion and she doesn't know that I know about the A. She is doing the exact same thing to me, so we could fall in to the hole of absolutely no communication if I am not careful. It is almost as if SHE has read the 37 Rules and is using them on ME!
But you are the expert, so here it goes...
The thing that makes me the most nervous about it is that she won't know WHY I am doing it if we don't have the R discussion and she doesn't know that I know about the A.
Oh, she'll know! Besides, you aren't having conversations now, so why do you think you'll be able to have a R talk? As I previously stated, it won't get you any closer to resolving this problem.
I want to make sure you understand something about the 37 rules. They started out as bullet points, and therefore, not much explanation. Some people misunderstand and think they are being told they should act cold/angry. They think they aren't suppose to say a word to their spouse. That's not true. The picture your spouse needs to have of you is one who has a positive mental attitude, doesn't go around looking like he's lost his last friend, and one who has an agenda that does not include her.....an agenda she doesn't know about, and is not given any details. I'm talking about GAL. But I'll get into that subject later.
Yes, this sounds opposite of what seems logical to you. Remember, she doesn't think like you. She's not concerned about you, and frankly, not very interested. The first thing MWD tells us to do is stop being as available, and to step back and give the spouse space. Plenty of space. That includes texting throughout the day, following her around the house, crowding her with your presence, asking her a lot of questions, trying to engage her in a conversation, or trying to keep her hanging on the phone as you continue talking. When you start stepping back from her, she'll notice. She'll play dumb and ask you what's wrong, just like you've previously asked
her. That's when you just look at her and say, "Should there be something wrong"? Or, you can say, "Nothing". She'll know!
Here's the thing, you don't want to appear as if you are not engaged with her b/c it's your way to punish her.....or b/c you're just a jerk. You want to appear as if you have other things on your mind, and that you are busy getting a life. When she sees she is not the center of your world, she'll have two reactions. She'll want to know why, and if she can't find out....she'll probably get mad. But that's okay, let her get mad. You aren't being hateful, but you aren't kissing her a$$, either. You are just......emotionally detached. What has your attention? The more she becomes interested in you, the more she'll be distracted by the OM. But I'll warn you, in all probability, it won't be as easy as it may sound and won't be happen quickly. You have to really work at it.
This may sound like a bunch of game playing, but I'm telling you what works and doesn't work. She has lost attraction for you. Therefore, you need to find the guy you once were and get that attraction going for you again. Not being available to her at all times, is one of the first steps. Doesn't sound like something a good H would do.....be unavailable, right? Well, she has fired you as her H.
In order to create a certain attraction, you will need to stop being available to her at the drop of a hat. I'm not say to ignore your responsibilities. I'm talking about doing personal favors for her. Catering to her, running errands, rescuing her, doing her work she left undone, grabbing the phone every time she calls, keeping the kids when she wants to go out to play at night, etc. Stop being a "Yes Dear" kind of H. Stop taking orders from her. You are not her employee.
Although you are a parent and have responsibilities, try hard to find the man you were before M, or become better. He's the guy she fell in love with, and she can do it again. First step is to get the attraction back.
That includes texting throughout the day, following her around the house, crowding her with your presence, asking her a lot of questions, trying to engage her in a conversation, or trying to keep her hanging on the phone as you continue talking.
That should read,
Not texting, etc.
Ok. First day to the 37 Rules is done. It felt wrong, but good at the same time.
To explain, I will start with Saturday. W texts me at work about something at home, so I respond within a few minutes. I know, mistake #1. During the conversation, I tell her to be careful when she goes out because the roads were terrible and that it took me an extra 45 minutes to get to work. Mistake #2. She relates to the comment and says it was like when she was driving to see her mother in the hospital every day last year in white out conditions. I compliment her, saying it was a good thing she did because a lot of people don’t bother to go see family in the hospital. Mistake #3. She said “that’s because people suck.” She opened the door wide open on this, so I couldn’t resist. I replied “I don’t know how people can do things to hurt the ones they are supposed to love.” I got no response from that one. Mistake #4, but I couldn’t resist the chance to add to her guilty conscious. The day did get better from there.
Later in the day she text to ask if I could pick up one of our daughters on the way home. Since I drive right by, I said I could. Once I got home, she was not there and I was told that she was out with one of her friends all day. I do a few things I needed to do around the house then got in to the shower. In the meantime, W comes home.
When I get out, I put on some nice clothes and start getting ready to go out for the evening. I was going to my company Christmas party, but she didn’t need to know that. W announced to me that she is going out, so I needed to make sure the kids were fed. I was almost ready to leave at this point. I simply said “You have been out enough lately and have been gone all day. It’s my turn.” I put on my coat and left. I rolled in about 3am with W “sleeping” on the couch.
The next morning, she was in the kitchen doing something and I went to get another cup of coffee. I greeted her with a simple “good morning.” All she could manage was giving me the Death Glare. I think I may have hit a nerve.
The rest of the day was a bit of nice/not nice by her. I was working outside and at one point opened the door and called to one of my kids to get a glass of water for me so I didn’t have to take my work clothes off. W said “I’ll get it” in a very cheerful manner and brought it to me. Later I needed a small tin, which she has many of. I asked if she had a spare, and she said “sure.” Got up found one for me and seemed happy to do it. Later, she made enough dinner for everyone – except me. I knew it was too good to last.
The rest of the day was only necessary communication. No hugs, kisses or “I love you.” First time I have not done those things since before we were married.
Not easy, but I did it.
Sounds as if you did pretty well, considering you've just started on the 37 rules.
W texts me at work about something at home, so I respond within a few minutes. I know, mistake #1.
The rule says no frequent phone calls. Let her be the one to contact you. Sometimes we suggest no contact at all. But for right now, just try not to initiate calls/texts. If your W is one who interrupts your working hours just for idle chat, I would say to respond if or when you have time. If it is a text, check to see if it really requires a response. If she doesn't ask questions, it needs no response.....other than maybe "OK". Use as few words as possible. The point is not to appear as if you are pursuing her, and that you are not available at the drop of a hat. This helps with some of the detaching.
During the conversation, I tell her to be careful when she goes out because the roads were terrible and that it took me an extra 45 minutes to get to work. Mistake #2.
Was it a mistake b/c you were trying to keep her on the phone longer?
I compliment her, saying it was a good thing she did because a lot of people don’t bother to go see family in the hospital. Mistake #3.
Why do you feel this was a mistake? What was your motive behind the compliment? Were you trying to score some brownie points? IDK, you tell me.
She said “that’s because people suck.” She opened the door wide open on this, so I couldn’t resist. I replied “I don’t know how people can do things to hurt the ones they are supposed to love.” I got no response from that one. Mistake #4, but I couldn’t resist the chance to add to her guilty conscious.
You go from complimenting her to throwing a truth dart. Trust me, she didn't miss it. However, let me say this about it. It is not your job to give her a guilty conscious....or add to it. Tempting, but it doesn't help your cause. Remember to let your actions do the talking.
Later in the day she text to ask if I could pick up one of our daughters on the way home. Since I drive right by, I said I could. Once I got home, she was not there and I was told that she was out with one of her friends all day. I do a few things I needed to do around the house then got in to the shower. In the meantime, W comes home.
If it doesn't require you having to leave work early, and you go right past the school, then I see nothing wrong with it. You may not want to do it every day, b/c you may have plans to GAL after working hours. My suggestion is to have a time each day (if necessary) to check about the next day's activities/needs for the kids. See if it helps cut out some of her texting through the day, or her making last minute changes and wanting
you to go to the rescue. Also, you need to be prepared to tell your W you will be going out. You won't go every day, of course, but often. You'll have to beat her to it, or she will be leaving you stuck at home with the kids. BTW, you don't have to have a legit reason to go out. Just get out of the house. If she does go out, don't let her leave seeing you looking gloomy/sad/mad. Act as if you hardly notice she's leaving. Make sure you are doing something you
enjoy....having fun time with the kids, etc. This action is not to cause her guilt, but for her to see you being an attractive man who is not upset, co-dependent and needy on her staying home with you. Don't be doing housework she hasn't touched. Don't play the victim.
When I get out, I put on some nice clothes and start getting ready to go out for the evening. I was going to my company Christmas party, but she didn’t need to know that. W announced to me that she is going out, so I needed to make sure the kids were fed. I was almost ready to leave at this point. I simply said “You have been out enough lately and have been gone all day. It’s my turn.” I put on my coat and left. I rolled in about 3am with W “sleeping” on the couch.
I love it!
The next morning, she was in the kitchen doing something and I went to get another cup of coffee. I greeted her with a simple “good morning.” All she could manage was giving me the Death Glare. I think I may have hit a nerve.
Whenever she doesn't get to do what she wants....
when she wants, it will hit a nerve. So what! Life's not fair.
The rest of the day was a bit of nice/not nice by her. I was working outside and at one point opened the door and called to one of my kids to get a glass of water for me so I didn’t have to take my work clothes off. W said “I’ll get it” in a very cheerful manner and brought it to me. Later I needed a small tin, which she has many of. I asked if she had a spare, and she said “sure.” Got up found one for me and seemed happy to do it. Later, she made enough dinner for everyone – except me. I knew it was too good to last.
The rest of the day was only necessary communication. No hugs, kisses or “I love you.” First time I have not done those things since before we were married.
Good job! Never knowing what to expect is the theme song. She may be nice for no apparent reason, and just as quickly turn ugly. So, your job is to never let down your guard. Don't let her niceness throw you, and don't let her ugly ways upset you. Don't let your NGS play with your head.
Was it a mistake b/c you were trying to keep her on the phone longer?
Maybe a little, but it was more to show concern.
Why do you feel this was a mistake? What was your motive behind the compliment? Were you trying to score some brownie points? IDK, you tell me.
Brownie points, no, but I was trying to let her know she did the right thing and I was acknowledging it.
Ok. So maybe a few brownie points.
If it doesn't require you having to leave work early, and you go right past the school, then I see nothing wrong with it.
It was from a friend's house, but the reason was SHE wanted to be gone and didn't want to break her plans. I should have asked Moe questions.
BTW, you don't have to have a legit reason to go out. Just get out of the house.
Looks like I'll be spending some time at the local pub! Maybe I'll get my dart game back in form!
If she does go out, don't let her leave seeing you looking gloomy/sad/mad. Act as if you hardly notice she's leaving. Make sure you are doing something you enjoy....having fun time with the kids, etc. This action is not to cause her guilt, but for her to see you being an attractive man who is not upset, co-dependent and needy on her staying home with you. Don't be doing housework she hasn't touched. Don't play the victim.
I've never told her she couldn't go out. Ever. She's home with the kids all day and I know she needs time away. The hard part is knowing she is not always going where she says she is going now. I'll keep the happy face though.
Pub, ok. Drunk not ok. You come home drunk and you automatically lose.
I know. That was more of a joke. Not much to do around here other than bars, movies or stores. The library doesn't stay open late enough!!
Should I tell her I'm going out, or just go and play her game? She rarely actually tells me she's leaving, let alone where she is going.
Dude, just do your own thing. This isn't for her, it's for you.
Dude, just do your own thing. This isn't for her, it's for you.
You sound like you think I should give up.
No, you shouldn't give up. You should be going out with friends because you want to do it for your own mental and emotional health. Not to impress W.
rminer,
Sorry you are going through this we all LBS know the pain your going through, is like gasping for air and your trying to catch your breath trust me I wouldn't wish this pain on amyone.
What joe trying to say, let's say you do get divorce what do we do after a separation we GAL we go out meet new people make new friends ect, in my case I have 3 small kids under 10, they keep me busy and I stay busy with school activity. But on my free time without kids I go to movie's, or drinks with bf. Before things got worse with W, on W weekends I would be dress up when W came by she notice everything I got the temper check couple times, I finally started to see W true colors towards me and our kids.
If your religious go to church, with me church has been my peace my safe place where I could cry my eyes out. And take care of yourself always get plenty of rest by some tea to take if you can't sleep. Always you first. Your kids need you now more than ever.
Take it a day at a time.
I know. That was more of a joke. Not much to do around here other than bars, movies or stores. The library doesn't stay open late enough!!
That sounds like you arent looking hard enough. Take on a new hobby, join a new club, etc. For me, the point is to prove to myself that I could be OK and even thrive without my ex. The key to doing that is in trying new things and meeting new people.
Should I tell her I'm going out, or just go and play her game? She rarely actually tells me she's leaving, let alone where she is going.
Yes, you can tell her you are going out, but don't tell her where or what time you'll be home. Women are curious by nature, and as a WW, she'll want details. She will want to know if you are seeing another woman! although she may not directly ask. Your job is to give very vague answers that tell her nothing. Do not reassure her that you aren't seeing anyone, or you are just meeting with old buddies, or that you'll be alone. I don't mean that you act as if you are dating, or try to make her jealous. I am saying to let her think whatever she thinks. You don't give her straight answers. I am not encouraging you to lie. Never lie to your W. I am just saying not to give details. If you want examples, you can ask me the questions you think your W may say, and I'll play your part, to show you what I mean.
H: "I am going out".
W: "Where"
H: "Haven't decided yet".
W: "Is anyone going with you"?
H: "Don't know.
W: "Well, have you asked anyone"?
H: (Just gives her the glare of death).
W: "When will you be home"?
H: "Don't know".
BTW, if there is nothing open late, is there somewhere you could go and just read a book, or post on your thread? Is there a nearby mall where you can just look around? Until you think of something you'd enjoy doing for fun, simply getting out of the house needs to be your aim in creating an air of mystery about you. Eventually, you will be really GAL, and you'll be able to see what a positive difference it makes in you. Don't engage into any activity that could bring regrets and you will be fine.
I want to clarify a couple of previous things, b/c I don't want you to misunderstand.
I do not want you to think you have to tolerate an unfaithful W. All cheaters lie. Even with concrete evidence, most cheaters deny having an A. Therefore, realize that simply confronting her about your suspicions will probably do no good. In fact, it alerts her to be more careful about covering her A. She will lie and deny, and try to make you feel as if it's all your imagination. The cheater's most used lie is, "He is only a friend". So, after you let her know you are sucpicious, then what? Then the games really go into high gear. Many men think confrontation, alone, will automatically end the A. It doesn't. The H has to set and enforce boundaries. I hope you are reading about it.
As I said previously, if you ever confront her......you will need to have a plan of action. Don't share with her, just be prepared. Words alone are not effective. Be ready to physically separate, if she does not make an immediate u-turn. She would need to see that you aren't playing and won't tolerate inappropriate behavior with another man. Don't be afraid of losing her, b/c she's already there. Oh, and another thing......She would have to end complete contact with the OM for the rest of her life. She could have no more hidden agendas, secret messages/contacts, and private friendships. Affairs of any type are very addictive.
The other thing I wanted to clarify is about her going out at night. When I said don't let her see you acting sad, I didn't mean for you to act goofy and overkill by telling her to enjoy herself or that she deserves it. Some H's even tell the WW to have a good time. I don't really agree with telling a wayward W this, b/c she is suspected of inappropriate behavior. Just try not to look fake.
Finding balance in your new actions/behavior and interactions with her will be challenging.
Remember, your goal is not to prove your love. It is to have the respect from your W that you deserve. When there is a WW in the M, you cannot gain her respect with your passive ways. You probably will always have nice guy traits, but you can learn how to keep a healthy balance....and what you have to do with your W.
Never threaten to do something that you can't enforce and carry through.
rminer,
Sandi is giving you great advice. When W says you don't love her/cherish her/etc. she's just trying to shift the burden of what's happening 100% to you.
Her goal is not for you to love her and cherish her, her goal is to relieve herself of guilt. Therefore, if you argue and contradict her, she's just going to resent you for making her feel more guilty.
There is NO PATH to "nicing" yourself back into this relationship. The only way back is tough love.
To Sandi's points, people value that which they have to work for, and do not value that which is easily obtained. If you throw yourself at her, you're of no value.
she doesn’t feel loved or wanted, I don’t compliment her, it has been going on for years and years, we’ve talked about it but it never changes, she keeps it inside because she knows it will never change, we were just kids when we met and we grew apart, the house is killing her but I would never give it up and that she knew it was over when I stopped caring why she was mad.
"Sorry you feel that way -- I guess we're done then. Will you be packing up your things today, or this weekend?"
That may seem like a laughable response to you, but ironically it would have been the MOST EFFECTIVE response in the moment.
Why?
Because you would have stood up for yourself as a person of great value: (1) you won't allow her to offload her B.S. and guilt onto you, (2) you won't be in a marriage with someone who doesn't want to be there, (3) you establish that if she's unhappy, she should move out and good luck.
You better believe that response would make her stop and think!
You better believe that response would make her doubt her resolve.
You better believe that response would lead her to question who has the power in the relationship and if her prior assumptions about you were accurate.
That's what you want, to shake up her assumptionsObviously you can't go back in time and replay that, but you CAN analyze that response and what would have happened. You can either believe that would have been the best response, and start to act that way going forward, or you can disagree, and let's talk about what issues you have with it.
Going forward I strongly suggest you begin acting as a person of high value, which means you don't diminish your needs or your status in the relationship. You stand up for yourself at all costs, and you refuse to accept responsibility for things she projects onto you.
I often tell people that the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction.
Acc
ACC....that was fuching inspirational! Thank you!
Thanks, marina. It sounds like you know exactly how I feel.
I'm searching for answers on how to fix this, as you know, and any input is welcome.
Very hard to focus on me when all I want is her.
I hear ya. But really, there is not much to do around here. I will keep looking though.
The H has to set and enforce boundaries. I hope you are reading about it.
I am.
The other thing I wanted to clarify is about her going out at night. When I said don't let her see you acting sad, I didn't mean for you to act goofy and overkill by telling her to enjoy herself or that she deserves it. Some H's even tell the WW to have a good time. I don't really agree with telling a wayward W this, b/c she is suspected of inappropriate behavior. Just try not to look fake.
She never tells me she is going, and I don't act bothered. It wouldn't do any good anyway.
Finding balance in your new actions/behavior and interactions with her will be challenging.
I'm finding this to be very true. I want to shake her and ask what the heck does she think she is doing, but at the same time I don't want to make things worse. This balancing act is going to kill me.
Her goal is not for you to love her and cherish her, her goal is to relieve herself of guilt. Therefore, if you argue and contradict her, she's just going to resent you for making her feel more guilty.
No more "truth darts," eh?
There is NO PATH to "nicing" yourself back into this relationship. The only way back is tough love.
I understand that. We don't argue, and most everything is small talk, so there is not much chance for "tough love." How do you "tough love" when there is rarely a chance?
There was an episode yesterday that I will get to in another post.
To Sandi's points, people value that which they have to work for, and do not value that which is easily obtained. If you throw yourself at her, you're of no value.
"Sorry you feel that way -- I guess we're done then. Will you be packing up your things today, or this weekend?"
My wife would have called me out on that one, but I see where you are going with it and how it could work.
Going forward I strongly suggest you begin acting as a person of high value, which means you don't diminish your needs or your status in the relationship. You stand up for yourself at all costs, and you refuse to accept responsibility for things she projects onto you.
Point taken
I often tell people that the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction.
Oddly, that makes sense.
Day two of the 37 rules was pretty easy. She was taking the youngest two to the museum with a friend (not OM) and left before me. Didn't say a word, just left.
When I got home from work, I made a little small talk. "How was the museum?" "Were the roads bad?" etc. Nothing big. Just got minimal answers in return.
When I went to bed all I said was "good night" and got a grunt of a goodnight back.
Day three, yesterday, was a bit rougher.
I went in the kitchen about 11:30 am to get another cup of coffee. My W was there getting breakfast and I gave her a simple "hey," but got no reply. By the look on her face I could tell she was in a bad mood.
I left to get some things around the house done and finished up about 2pm. When I came in, she was doing dishes. I cleaned up and put on some "nice" clothes. Nothing fancy, just nicer than I usually wear (jeans/T'shirt or sweatshirt), shaved my neck and did my hair (day's off it is usually a baseball cap when I am going out).
I went downstairs to stoke the fire before I left and went back up stairs to wash my hands. By this time is was a little after 3pm. She was standing in front of the kitchen sink where my wedding ring was. I said "excuse me" and got the response "yeah."
When she said that, I simply said "is something bothering you?" "Yes" was the reply. I asked if it was something that I may have done. She said "Yes. I don't want to talk about it right now. I take it you are going somewhere." I confirmed that and said "I have a few things to do." She asked when I would be back. I gave the answer "I don't know."
At this point she started in with "I'm tired of having to cart these kids around everywhere all of the time." I asked if there was somewhere they had to be that I did not know about. She came back with "God, I can't do this any more. You know they have to be to dance and Karate." I simply said "Yes, and I am planning on taking them this week. What time? I don't remember." "Of course you don't. 6:30. You took them last week." I said "That is all I needed to know."
I followed it up with telling her that I am not going to argue with her, she doesn't need to get mad at me and that if she needs something, ask. I have no problem helping when I can. She replied with "like that works." I simply said "It would if you would try."
She then started in on how her van is a POS and that I should let her drive my car since it just sits all day when I am at work. At this point I just left the room. Her van has an exhaust leak and when it idles (only when it idles) you can smell exhaust with the heat on. Not much, but it is there. I have an appointment to get it fixed on Monday, but I feel like canceling it at this point.
A little background on the car situation. Since we have been married she has always had the better vehicle. I wanted it that way because she has the kids with her. I drive 30k+ miles per year and drive a car in to the ground before I replace it. Her van is getting older and has some issues, but she tends to over dramatize things. Last winter my car died. I offered to fix mine so we could replace hers in the spring, but she insisted that I get a newer car. She was worried about me driving the one I had and that I deserved it. Now she is holding it against me.
That was the end of it.
She had been upset with everyone most of the day. My youngest daughter said that she had been getting progressively worse throughout the day. (It is her time of the month. A little extra emotion mabey?)
When I returned from my errands, she seemed to be in a better mood. We left and came back about 2 hrs later. When we came in she was sitting in our bathroom on the edge of the tub with her phone plugged in texting someone. She was dressed to go out. Not fancy, but hair done, makeup and nice jeans.
She didn't tell me where she was going, but I overheard her say she was meeting a girlfriend who needed to talk. She left and came back about an hour later with some groceries, saying that her friend had to cancel because of the roads. She also said that they rescheduled for tonight, so I don't expect her to be home tonight when I get there.
It got even more interesting from there.
About 11:30 her phone started to go dead, so she went to get her charger and couldn't find it - all she could find is the extension cord she uses. She has it on an extension cord and a 10ft data cable so she can sit on the couch and text/facebook/netflix constantly. She asked me if I knew where it was, and I told her that the last place I saw it was in the bathroom when she was sitting on the tub. She said that that is where she left it with her hair straightener.
She went on a rant about how our oldest D put away her hair straightener and that it is amazing how all her chargers constantly disappear. I asked if she had asked our oldest D and she said she did and that she claims she hadn't seen it. As she was doing this she was trying to recruit me to her side. I sympathized with her and said that I know it is frustrating because my chargers disappear too. I told her I looked but did not see it. I then asked my oldest two Ds, and they both claim they did not have it and said she "probably put it somewhere and forgot like she always does."
W went on to say that "When my phone goes dead no one will be able to get a hold of me, so don't try. When my van breaks down that will be really nice."
I actually think my oldest D took it. All of the kids are getting tired of the amount of time she spends on the phone and never putting it down. It is affecting their relationships and they are getting almost as frustrated as I am, but more on that another day.
At this point I told everyone good night and went to bed. No reply from W.
Third day of no hugs/kisses/I love you. Think she has noticed yet?
Another update.
I think the R/A/D conversation may be coming soon, so I need to prepare.
I did a little Facebook stalking today and found that one of my W "friends" is a Divorce Attorney. I don't remember her being there before. I don't have Facebook, but I do know how to check some things.
My question is, what do I need to do to prepare? I have read about validation as well as some threads.
What do I need to say/do/act? I need to get a game plan together for this ASAP, as I feel like the talk will be coming sooner rather than later.
Are you saying that you don't think I should talk to her about "us" at all like we said we were going to do, or I shouldn't confront about the affair?
Actually, I was saying both. There is a lot of guidance on here about "No R talk," meaning no relationship talk after your W has asked for D or started an A.
It's counter-intuitive, but your W will find you more attractive if you ignore her. I used to ask my W "How was your day?" Her answer was always "Fine" and I had a horrible time trying to get her to say more. She never asked about my day. After I found the Last Resort Technique and this site, I stopped asking. I go about my business. I've GAL.
Then, presto, she started asking about me. I try to keep my answers short, but could probably keep them shorter. Completely detach, or make it look like you have. Be mysterious. It will make your W more interested. But don't answer her questions too completely, or the mystery will be gone.
Where can I get more info on the Last Resort Technique? I searched the site, but all I can find are some threads that don't explain it in detail.
What do I need to say/do/act? I need to get a game plan together for this ASAP, as I feel like the talk will be coming sooner rather than later.
Why do you think it is coming soon? Are you sure it's not more
you wanting to "do something"?
You referred to it as the R/A/D talk. Are you planning to talk about all three at one time?
When I mentioned a plan of action, I did not mean that having a talk was
the plan of action. I will be glad to help you with a plan of action........but I can't tell you word for word to say. I can try to direct you.
You are only on day three of following the rules.
I would say to begin mentally preparing by
seriously thinking about your core values, standards and principles. Then list the things in life you will not live without. (I am not referring to objects). Then, list the things you will not tolerate in your relationships.
I think you need to study boundaries, before opening your mouth too big and undertaking a serious talk with her. As I've previously said, she will more than likely deny and lie about an A. If so, then what will you do? Are you going to demand she quits her place of employment? Do you know how a transparency plan works?
Didn't you say you really had no evidence she's in an A? If not, she'll easily make you feel like you are imagining everything.
I can tell you what she'll probably do......after she denies and lies. She'll probably start griping about how you are to blame for everything wrong in her life. If she does, then what will you do? Have a long drawn out R talk? Nothing will be resolved. You are not ready. You prepare by learning more DB and applying the techniques. This can't be fixed by talks.
If she comes to you and says she wants a D, you can tell her that that is not what you want....but you will not stand in her way. Do not agree to do the filing.
It's late for me, so I will try to get back to you tomorrow. In the meantime, please cool it and don't get into a R talk.
Why do you think it is coming soon? Are you sure it's not more you wanting to "do something"?
If course I want to do something. I say this because of a few things she has said.
Before I came to this site and was trying to get her to talk, she said it was "too sad to do before Christmas." She also said on another day that "She didn't want to give me false hope." At one point I told her I wasn't giving up on "us." Her reply was simply "we'll see."
The way she was raging yesterday may be all part of the process, but it sure felt as though there was another message behind it.
And as I mentioned, today I see that she has a "friend" on Facebook who is a divorce lawyer. I never noticed that "friend" before.
I want to make sure I'm not caught off guard if the conversation comes and make it go as well as possible.
You referred to it as the R/A/D talk. Are you planning to talk about all three at one time?
NO! I am avoiding it at this point.
When I mentioned a plan of action, I did not mean that having a talk was the plan of action. I will be glad to help you with a plan of action........but I can't tell you word for word to say. I can try to direct you.
The plan is not the conversation, but eventually it will come. I can't be unprepared. Your guidance will be appreciated.
I would say to begin mentally preparing by seriously thinking about your core values, standards and principles. Then list the things in life you will not live without. (I am not referring to objects). Then, list the things you will not tolerate in your relationships.
Understood. I have been thinking about it. The only things on it so far are not living without my kids and marriage. I won't tolerate the A.
I am still working on it, but I am coming to realize that I may have to be a bit more flexible on the marriage part as much as I don't want to.
I think you need to study boundaries, before opening your mouth too big and undertaking a serious talk with her.
I will go back and study more. I really don't want the,talk yet.
Do you know how a transparency plan works?
I do not. That will be tonight's homework.
She'll probably start griping about how you are to blame for everything wrong in her life.
In one of our text conversations and in the texts to the OM, she said that she is to blame because she had been lying to herself about being happy. This threw me off a bit because she did blame me too. Was this to gain sympathy, or do you think she may have meant It?
If she does, then what will you do?
At this point, probably panic and screw it up.
I know. That is why I am here.
You prepare by learning more DB and You the techniques. This can't be fixed by talks.
I picked up a copy of the DR book yesterday. Started on it today.
It's late for me, so I will try to get back to you tomorrow. In the meantime, please cool it and don't get into a R talk.
Not planning on it and thank you.
I know it may seem like I am rushing things. I don't mean it to. I am listening to you and trying to apply what I am learning. I don't like to be unprepared for anything in my life and I know I am. Just trying to cover every base so I can do this as well as possible.
I also see what it is doing to our kids in just this short time and it is breaking my heart. I think they want this to be resolved more than anyone.
Where can I get more info on the Last Resort Technique? I searched the site, but all I can find are some threads that don't explain it in detail.
Before you go there, watch this. Look for the coupon code below the video.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2RujdMzAjbkThe other thing I would say, is give up fixing things. Women hate that. It makes them feel like you're not listening.
Instead, read the link that Cadet posted on Validation. Then read it again. Then memorize a couple short phrases,and use them, things like "I can see how you would think that." or I can see how you would feel that way." or "That must be really hard for you." Then say them when your W says something that might ordinarily annoy you, make you defensive, or make you want to fix something for her.
I will give you an example. Last week I was washing dishes, specifically, I was washing a tupperware container. W comes up and says "You and [stepson] are always doing that kind of stuff - using my good tupperware for the wrong stuff. Those are for vegetables, you can tell because there's vegetables printed on the side of them." I looked at her and said "I can see how you would think that." She gave me slight grin and walked away. Small words. No apology. Big victory. If I knew that years ago, I would not be here.
Understood. I have been thinking about it. The only things on it so far are not living without my kids and marriage. I won't tolerate the A
The harsh truth is that you
can live without your M. If your W divorces you, you may live 50% without your kids. Some things in life we have no control over. Some men say another guy won't raise their kids.......only to eat their own words.
You won't tolerate an A. That's a good place to explain how boundaries work. You cannot control your W and force her to do things your way. When enforcing boundaries, you control one person's actions........and that person is you. Boundaries are not an ultimatum. A personal boundary is about you. It's as if you have an invisible line drawn around you. It is up to you in deciding what doesn't cross that line to hurt you.
When we purchase a home and a piece of land, we have it surveyed and our neighbor should know where our property lines runs. But how many neighbors have gone to court b/c one neighbor crossed the line to do as he pleased? We have boundaries around our house, and do not allow just anything to come through the doors. The same is true about your person. I bet you don't allow someone to physically punch you in the nose, or insult you, etc. There are just some things we aren't going to take. Our natural defense kicks in when we are being attacked. Our self respect, values, etc.... won't accept cr@p treatment from others.
One thing I can't live without is peace. I've had my share of drama, and don't want to stay in it. One thing I won't tolerate is someone disrespecting me to my face. In both of these examples, it is up to me to take the appropriate action. Are others going to give me peace, or is it up to me to find a way to have peace in my life? If a man makes a crude remark toward me, I can't force him to apologize. But I can remove myself from his presence. It is up to me to find a way to protect my feelings.
So, back to you not tolerating an affair. You know that you cannot live in a M that has a three people. It is up to you to take appropriate action to protect yourself. An example of stating your boundary to your W, would be, "I cannot stay in a MR that has three people, if your A doesn't end immediately, then I will prepare to take the next step". (The next step would be getting your finances protected, and preparing to separate). Now understand, when stating a boundary, she is always free to choose. You are simply telling her that you can't stay in a MR of three people. You are also telling her what you will do, if it continues. This is you protecting yourself. Does it make sense?
I want to caution you about saying something you'll regret. A while back, there were newcomer H's in your shoes. They read the link on boundaries, where it gives the example of not living in an open M. Sounded good to them, so they announced to their WW they would not live in an open M. Guess what? The WW's did nothing. Then the ball was in the H's court........and they (the H's) were backtracking, b/c they didn't want to leave the M. They foolishly thought just stating their boundary was an automatic fix. It's not. In fact, most WW's are going to test it. Therefore, don't say something that backs you into a corner, b/c if you don't stick to your word.......she'll never believe what you say again. Choose your words carefully.
You do not have to make the same boundary. And, you can set boundaries about other things, too. You don't have to take her yelling at you, or treating you disrespectfully. Boundaries are for protecting yourself.
I'll continue with another post.
Continued from previous post.............
I am still working on it, but I am coming to realize that I may have to be a bit more flexible on the marriage part as much as I don't want to.
What do you mean by "flexible"?
In one of our text conversations and in the texts to the OM, she said that she is to blame because she had been lying to herself about being happy. This threw me off a bit because she did blame me too. Was this to gain sympathy, or do you think she may have meant It?
She really means it.
One thing in your preparation is bracing yourself to hear the very worst, and see her worst. H's are always saying how the W threw him off guard. That's b/c he's not staying on his toes. You have to be prepared at all times, b/c she has a bag of tricks that she hasn't even used yet.
Prepare yourself by talking to your lawyer and seeing where you stand legally, and your rights as a father.
Get prepared by protecting your finances. Take her name off your credit cards, and take your name off hers. You may need to set up a private bank account that she won't have access. You could keep enough in the remaining account for household expenses. Many WW's have cleaned their H's out, right before leaving him. Anything else you can do to protect yourself financially, do it now. Your lawyer can advise you about it.
Implement the 37 rules. Btw, I thought you made too much of a big deal of helping her look for her phone charger. That was her job, not yours. It sounded as if you were bending over backwards to recuse it for her. Old habit?
Finish reading DR, and any unread links on Cadet's homework page.
GAL, GAL, & GAL.
Take time to really think about what you will do if your W refuses to cooperate. Do you have the courage to physically separate? If not, then I suggest you not approach her about an A.
In the meantime, if she comes to you about wanting a D and you begin to panic........say nothing. But if she wants in-house separation, tell her she can move out, but you won't stay under the same roof if she can't be your W. ( I've never seen a successful in-house S). Do not agree to pay support her financially.
How are you doing with detaching?
I'm going to copy & paste a shorter version of DB detaching.
I hope you'll read the following carefully. It is a shorter version of DB detaching.
Healthy Detachment...(Posted by DBer Peanut originally)
I. Detachment
Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.
Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.
When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.
When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.
Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.
On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.
Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want so I must pull back.’
It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.
We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).
We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)
PART II Detachment (found around here)
Detachment is the:
* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.
* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.
* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.
* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.
* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.
* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.
* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.
* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanind or controlling.
* Placing of all things in life into a healthy, rational perspective. (=Balance is a piece of detachment).
* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.
* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to not bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.
* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
IF & WHEN THESE ^^^ FACTORS ARE ADDRESSED, -
We could have a great friendship, or a great marriage. And those are treasures.
_________________________
I had a similar one about a week ago. W complained that I would always leave coffee puddled on the edge of the sink when I emptied the pot. I said "Yeah, that is a pain I didn't realize I was doing that. I will be more careful from now on." I got a playful "Surrre you will" answer and a smile. I didn't realize until you said that what had actually occurred in that interaction, but it did work.
Thanks!
So, back to you not tolerating an affair. You know that you cannot live in a M that has a three people. It is up to you to take appropriate action to protect yourself. An example of stating your boundary to your W, would be, "I cannot stay in a MR that has three people, if your A doesn't end immediately, then I will prepare to take the next step". (The next step would be getting your finances protected, and preparing to separate). Now understand, when stating a boundary, she is always free to choose. You are simply telling her that you can't stay in a MR of three people. You are also telling her what you will do, if it continues. This is you protecting yourself. Does it make sense?
Yes. Perfect sense.
[/quote]
What do you mean by "flexible"?
Just my way of saying I will have to accept the possibility of D.
I was afraid you would say that. In your opinion, does that make this process harder or easier?
Btw, I thought you made too much of a big deal of helping her look for her phone charger. That was her job, not yours. It sounded as if you were bending over backwards to recuse it for her. Old habit?
More to show sympathy, really. I know how aggravating it is to have chargers disappear because mine have gone missing quite a few times. I was trying to convey that I understood her frustration. I should have just said it instead of acting on it too?
How are you doing with detaching?
Good and bad. I have been so attached for so long, I have caught myself doing some things out of habit, realize the mistake and stop. Right now, I think the detachment part is the part giving me the most trouble.
A few times I have felt anger and resentment building up and wanted to lash out, but I didn't. I just walked away. Letting her live her own life without questions is difficult for me. I have always tried to take an interest in what she does. Not being a part of it in any capacity is new to me.
I'm going to copy & paste a shorter version of DB detaching.
Thank you. That is very clear and helps a lot.
You mentioned earlier a Transparency Plan. I am not seeing anything on this here. I see "transparency" but no referrals to "plan."
Will I get to it in the DR book?
I was afraid you would say that. In your opinion, does that make this process harder or easier?
I guess I read what you meant the wrong way. She is lying to herself. It's part of her waywardness, just like the tremendous resentment she holds, and just like her blaming you for everything that goes wrong. Maybe she means it when she says it, but it is still a lie. The why could be for a couple of reasons. When she comes out of her fantasy, she'll have to admit the truth to herself.....or choose to operate on a lie. That's one of the things that will determine if she returns all the way.......or not. That is why a LBH should never take back his WW until she does the necessary work on her heart. Otherwise, he won't have his old W, he'll have a WW who has not shed her resentment. Her bad behavior will begin again if he takes her back too easily.
More to show sympathy, really. I know how aggravating it is to have chargers disappear because mine have gone missing quite a few times. I was trying to convey that I understood her frustration. I should have just said it instead of acting on it too?
When she wants to blame everyone else rather than taking responsibity, I don't agree with showing sympathy. I saw it as you trying to rescue her. Not your job.
You mentioned earlier a Transparency Plan. I am not seeing anything on this here. I see "transparency" but no referrals to "plan."
I will try to explain tomorrow.
Will I get to it in the DR book?
No.
Do not discuss a transparency plan, unless she agrees to end the A. At that time, you can tell her that in order to heal from the infidelity, you want her to follow a plan of transparency, until you can trust her again. She cannot just pick up where the MR left off. There's been too much damage. If she's not sincerely remorseful, then she has no intention of changing. The more the W protest against it, the more likely she won't cooperate or be honest.
When the W agrees to end her A, it must be done quickly. There is no tapering off. There is no affair "closure", so don't agree for her to see him "just one more time". She needs to write a letter to OM (with the H telling her what she needs to enclose. It should meet his approval before sending it.) She should tell the OM it was all a terrible mistake, that she loves her H, and that the OM can never contact her again. She should not express any feelings for the OM. Keep it short and to the point. Then the H watches as she deletes all history of OM and her messages. She blocks OM from her phone, social media, email, etc. This is very important. If she works with him, she immediately submits her resignation and finds employment elsewhere. She cannot work with OM and just be "friends". She can never see him!
She has to agree to do what the H needs to feel emotionally safe again, and to earn back the trust she lost. The W cannot tell the H what she'll do and not do. The H lays out the plan.....not the WW. She gives all him all her passwords. She deletes any computer/phone apps that aides in affairs (that don't leave proof of messages, etc.) She has to agree that her H can look at her messages from time to time. She agrees to give accountability for her time and whereabouts as long as H needs to know. If she works with the OM or is in his social group, she must leave that employment and stop engaging in the social group. This may also require her to delete certain groups from her social media.
And anything else the H needs in order to feel that she is working to earn back his trust. He may need to look at her credit card purchases, and well as other receipts. These are ways she is as open about her activities as possible. This requires tremendous cooperation from her. She needs to know it will not be for the rest of her life, but for as long as you need. It requires her to be honest, at least to a degree. I know that there are other ways to deceive, but if she is serious about saving the M, then she needs to work with her H on being transparent. He is not the one who must prove anything. She is the one who was unfaithful, and she is the one who has the burden of proof. She should never get away with telling him, "You'll just have to trust me". No, he doesn't have to trust her, especially if she's not putting in the effort to show accountability.
Affairs (PA/EA/IA) are highly addictive. Even if she agrees to end her A, when she begins to crave attention from OM, she'll do most anything to make some sort of contact. Even seeing his photo can trigger the emotional cravings. It usually lasts for several months, but if she ever makes contact, it puts her back to square one again. If she'll follow the transparency plan, she will gradually lose her emotional feelings for the OM. Most WW's are not keen to any transparency plan, but it is needed in order to hold her feet to the fire and get her through the addiction.
During the transparency, the H should support his W as much as possible. However, he must remain firm and insist she follows through, even when she's being nice/sweet. He cannot trust her. He cannot just take her word anymore. People say that if the WW wants to have an A that she'll figure out a way. That is true, however, if she repents from her waywardness and the fact she brought a third party into the MR......she will need to have some type of system that will help her get back to the woman she once was. She should be told that transparency is to help her, as well as helping the H. Everyone needs accountability, especially after there has been an act of betrayal. If she won't agree to transparency, then there is no reason to believe her intentions to do what is necessary to save the M. Frankly, I don't have much hope for the WW who does not engage in transparency.
It is an emotionally rough time for both the H and W. The W will resemble someone going through withdrawals of drugs. She will get depressed, be angry at times, etc. If she acts as if she's happy and all is well on earth, then she's probably contacting OM, or he has reached out to her. The first couple of months are the hardest. It's like hard withdrawals. The time frame it takes to completely be out of the withdrawal stages will vary on the individual. If she backslides, she has to start all over again.
Withdrawals are not all the work the W will need to do to be ready to roll up her sleeves and work on the MR. She may need IC. I recommend the couple find an excellent pro-marriage therapist, preferably one who specializes in healing after infidelity. The couple who doesn't get guidance from a professional, stands less chance of staying together, IMHO. She has too many issues that need to heal. He will discover that many feelings will hit him after she agrees to work on the M. It's almost like a delayed reaction, and many H's become a WAH, if they don't receive help.
One more thing about the transparency plan. I do not recommend the H asks the W to let him see her phone. I don't recommend he looks at it at the same time, or even every day. She's too smart for that. Look at her phone when she doesn't know it, or at least, not expecting it. She should not look at it before handing it over to him. It only gives her time to delete things. And yes, some H's have be tricked this way. It's better if he just looks at it occasionally, and not make any comments. If she's not being honest, she'll eventually slip and he'll catch it. If she volunteers for him to look at it, that's fine. He can look and then thank her. He should never act self righteous, or as if he is her lord and master. He is not there to punish her. He is trying to help her.
Thanks, sandi. That helps.
Question for you.
Up until last Sunday when I started trying to fully implement these steps, my wife and I would text a bit during the day. I was usually the one who initiated. When I would send one, I would be to check to see how her day is going, say I'm thinking of her, etc. I usually got short responses, occasionally something longer an more meaningful.
Since Sunday I have stopped that. On Thursday I sent her a text with some information she would need. Nothing personal, just business and it was kept to just one sentence. She was not expecting this text.
She responded with "Ok, thank you." and then followed up with "Thought you lost my number." After a few minutes I replied "You're welcome." and "Nope. Still in my memory."
What was the purpose of "Thought you lost my number?" My first thought was a temp. check, but it was only the fifth day, so I would think it would be way too soon for something like that.
Was she saying she WANTS me to text her, just messing with me or getting a dig in? The comment surprised me a bit.
R,
Temp check. She doesn’t want anything thing fuching up her current situation. She wants you still attached to her so you will continue to financially support her do things around the house take care of the kids etc while she’s running around with and texting OM for her excitement and emotional support needs.
Also to top it off she wants to be sure your around as plan B in case it doesn’t work out with OM.
What Accuray posted on your thread is pure gold. The problem is it takes newbies a long time to realize they shouldn’t put up with BS. You most likely will get to a place when you realize you love and value yourself too much to tolerate this blatant disrespect.
By your demeanor in your posts I can tell you will get there sooner than later.
I was completely unprepared for her to say what she said, so there is know way I would have though to respond the way Accuracy recommended. My W takes crap from no one - except me when she knows she is wrong - but in this case she is so blinded, I don't think she would have cared. She most likely would have called me out on that response.
Now that I'm getting my feet under me a bit here, I hope I will have the "right" thing to say next time.
By your demeanor in your posts I can tell you will get there sooner than later.
I hope you are right. I sure don't feel like I will get there at this point.
It takes time, eventually you will get to a point to where you are fine with either outcome (D or Recon) and/or you start to question whether or not you would want to recon.
About 3 months ago my W told me she was ready to move forward and I told her to let me know what time works best so we can discuss. She never responded to me and hasn't brought it up since. The quicker you can get to a place of confidence the better off you will be equipped to handle her temp checks.
I was completely unprepared for her to say what she said, so there is know way I would have though to respond the way Accuracy recommended. My W takes crap from no one - except me when she knows she is wrong - but in this case she is so blinded, I don't think she would have cared. She most likely would have called me out on that response.
Now that I'm getting my feet under me a bit here, I hope I will have the "right" thing to say next time.
Rminer: When I read your first post, parts of what you said sounded like they were in my wife's voice. Meeting young and then eventually growing apart. My wife said she feels like a different person than she was when we met, much as it sounds your wife is. Finding your own value and working on your self is the best thing I can recommend now. I keep reminding myself that when I was dating my wife, there was a bit of a challenge there (she did not know everything I was thinking at all times).
R,
Ok let’s say you said that and she didn’t care. How does that change the situation your in right now? Either way she’s still with OM right? But one way you stick up for yourself which again communicates that you love and value yourself and you are not willing to share her with another man.
You can’t nice your way back. You also can’t turn a blind eye. Read Chris73s thread or PEW1974.
Look man I know this is hard but things are going to have to get worse before they get better.
I know you are right, but I just can't let myself see anything but recon at this point. I don't want this to become a self fulfilling prophecy in the negative way.
As far as confidence goes, mine is completely shaken and I'm looking for a way to get it back. I used to brag ro people that I KNEW my W would always be there for me and have my back. Look where we are now. From what I've gathered here, GAL is the best way to do that, but it is proving to be harder than I thought, so I'm faking it this point. I'll find something, but until then that's all I can do.
You are right. It wouldn't have changed much except maybe her physical location and forcing th BD. Either way she is with him.
I will look for those threads. Thanks.
I know you are right, but I just can't let myself see anything but recon at this point. I don't want this to become a self fulfilling prophecy in the negative way.
We understand what you mean. Most all newbies are focused on saving the M. After all, this is the divorce busting forum, right? We want you to save the M, too. We have learned that before you can save anything, you have to save yourself. I can see that you need to..... just by the way you have focused on a single snide remark from your W. I have been at this long enough that I can usually see certain characteristics in the H pretty quickly. And if he doesn't direct his focus on the things the board tries to tell him........he won't have the strength to make it through this horrible ordeal. But if he will turn his focus on himself and his children, follow the suggestions we offer, work on himself as man.......he's going to be fine. Along with all of this, he learns what to do in his M situation.
I feel the urgency in you, to find a fast solution. I can only imagine the desperation to do something before the A goes any further. If there was a quick fix......I would not hesitate to give it to you. I feel some resistance when you feel someone is steering you away from what you want to get here. You may get sick hearing this, but it's common in newcomers.
In order to become a strong, attractive, self-confident, alpha male, you have to make changes. These are the male characteristics that are attractive to women......and other men respect. You cannot be a passive, co-dependent, beta, nice-guy type.......and think your WW is going to drop the OM and fall into your arms, b/c she won't be attracted to those traits.
Honestly, and I don't want you to think my goal here is to insult you, I think you probably have developed some of those things I described in that last sentence. We are saying that you can change your life by changing these traits. Once you break the co-dependency, stop the nice-guy ways, become more assertive, improve your male self-confidence, etc..........you will be able to change the dynamics in your MR.
How you interact with your WW shows your manliness.........or the lack of it. Most nice guys want to show tenderness, sympathy, caring, etc. That's fine if you have a normal, sweet, loving W. But when you have a
wayward W, you have to apply
tough love........or she will trample all over your sweet caring interactions. Nice guys want to cater to the W, and they give in to whatever she says. He thinks if he'll just be nicer or do more to help her with the house or kids.....or whatever she needs......then surely she will feel better and appreciate him more. The ugly truth about a wayward W is that she doesn't really appreciate the efforts of her H. She
expects it. She has a sense of entitlement. The harder the nice H tries to satisfy her, the less attraction she feels for him. He wants to please her. He believes if he is nice enough, it will cause her to love him more. It's as if he is saying, "Look.....look at what I am doing for you. I am so nice to you.......even when you are ugly to me......don't you love me for my niceness?" Yes, she
may want to use him like a teddy bear and cuddle at night, but the next day, it's back to her calling the shots and the his submission.
The only thing a wayward respects is strength. Any action that indicates weakness in the H, is automatically doomed. The wayward W dominates the beta type H. The irony is that secretly, the WW wants a man who is stronger than she is. She'll test her H to see if he will take her bossing him around, or yelling at him, or belittle him in front of the kids, or b'tching at him, or anything that gives a message of disrespect.
just by the way you have focused on a single snide remark from your W.
I interpret this as you think the comment about forgetting her number was a snide remark and not a temp check. Am I correct?
I'm curious because to me a temp check would mean I have at least gotten her attention a bit, which is at least a start.
Honestly, and I don't want you to think my goal here is to insult you,
Ok. So you think I'm a wuss. No offense taken. Seriously. As I said before, I have thick skin. I want your honest opinion and the unabashed truth. I'm not here for a pity party (although I do appreciate the words of encouragement and understanding I have received), I am here to save my family.
I keep reading "tough love" and "dominance over your W." I get it, but there is virtually no interaction between my wife and I since I started trying to follow the program here (there was something today I will ask your opinion on tomorrow). What are some ways I can accomplish this when I can barely get her to string together multiple words when speaking to me?
I have reread th posts in this thread and the examples I am seeing involve verbal cues to assert dominance. What do women see as nonverbal cues? I think I am going to have to start there until we start speaking more.
but there is virtually no interaction between my wife and I since I started trying to follow the program here
You guys still live in the same house correct? If so, there should be plenty of opportunity for your W to notice your changes.
I can tell you from experience if you follow the 37 rules you will get your confidence back and your W's respect will return. Whether it leads to recon or not is a different story (since you can't control your W) but you will feel better about yourself.
My W and I are separated and only see each other maybe 1 hr per week during kid exchange and their activities. In the 1 hr she has plenty of time to observe my demeanor, appearance and confidence levels. I never talk about myself and what I am doing, where I have been, I don't bring us up or ask her any probing questions. The conversation is usually about the kids or very high level stuff about weather, a current event, something like that. IMO stopping the pursuing behavior and putting up with her BS is how you start to get your respect back..
I'm curious because to me a temp check would mean I have at least gotten her attention a bit, which is at least a start.
Yes, that is accurate so when she does it don't cave in which lets her know you are still available. I will give you an example.
3 months ago my W told me she was ready to move on and file for D. She sent this to me in a text message and I responded to her by saying "just let me know what time is best so we can discuss the details". She never responded to what I sent and we still have not discussed it. IMO that got her attention and I got some respect back. Right after BD my response would have been "You know I don't want this", "I will always love you, I want to work on this" or something like that. I hope you can tell the difference in the confidence levels of the responses. If would have said I don't want this or I love you......she knows she still has me by the b@lls and I would not have gotten any respect.
The best advice I ever got on this board was that the only way to get your spouse to return is if your not afraid to lose them.
You guys still live in the same house correct? If so, there should be plenty of opportunity for your W to notice your changes.
Yes, we still live in the same house. As I said before, it seems like she is following the 37 rules with me. To the letter. I honestly don't think she notices when I am there.
When I am trying to do my own thing and I am in the house, should I be visible to her, or is going in to another room ok? Say I want to read, is going to the bedroom fine or should I sit on the couch so she can see I have other interests? If I'm in another room it seems I would be out of sight/out of mind and possibly being anti social. Does that even matter at this point?
R,
It doesn't matter at this point. Sandi's rules help you to not make matters worse.
Things can not get better while she is in an A. You can't and shouldn't compete with OM.
Did you read Chris73 and PEW1974's thread?
Yesterday evening I came home and did a few chores that i needed to do and then sat down to watch the football game. Said hello to the W, she replied and that was the end of it.
During the game we both made a few comments about the game, she told me about an upcoming event for my youngest son, I asked if she got him signed up for something else we were talking about. That was about it.
Near the end of the game, she started talking a bit more about the game was more talkative. I engaged a bit, but not at great lengths.
She then asked when in would be home from work today. I said I had the day off. She responded by asking if one of our daughters could take my car to school. I said no because I have things to do. She said "in the evening?" I then told her yes, because I am taking our youngest son to his meeting.
She then told me that I didn't need to because she had to be there for something. I simply told her that I told her before that I wanted to start going, so I was going to go. She refuted that, so I simply said "then we can ride together in my car." She dropped it. A few minutes later, she started talking about another subject. We had a short, but pleasant conversation.
My job slows down tremendously in Jan., so up until then it is hard for me to be sure I will be home in time to take him. At the beginning of Jan. I told my wife that I wanted to start taking him just like I did last year. Her response was "Why? I have to be there a lot anyway, so you don't need to go."
This is one of the times she gets to see the OM, since he is the leader there. She is obviously trying to keep me away so she can see him.
When I took our son to the first meeting, the OM was there and talking to someone else. He has always come over to talk to me when we see each other and is very friendly. This time when he saw me you would have thought he saw a ghost. He didn't say a word and couldn't get out of there fast enough.
Am i playing with fire by insisting on going? I've already been emphatic that I was going to go, so I don't want to back out now, but could this backfire? I am going because I want to spend more time with my son. Being able to break up one of their chances to meet is a nice side effect though.
Yes, we still live in the same house. As I said before, it seems like she is following the 37 rules with me. To the letter. I honestly don't think she notices when I am there.
I am 7 months in and my W has not made 1 comment to me about anything other than my new haircut makes me look younger. That is why they say the changes need to be for you and not your W. You feeling good and confident should not be based on getting validated by your W. It is hard at first but it is the truth. They also notice more than you think, she may not say anything for a while but trust me she is taking notes on you and your behavior.
Every W acts different but for me it is very much like a game of chicken and who is going to flinch first. It will take some time for her to notice your changes and accept them for what they are. If you are consistent with them eventually she will realize you did not do them to win her back.
I consider myself pretty good at Dbing but I still can't control my W so there are no guarantees.
When I am trying to do my own thing and I am in the house, should I be visible to her, or is going in to another room ok? Say I want to read, is going to the bedroom fine or should I sit on the couch so she can see I have other interests? If I'm in another room it seems I would be out of sight/out of mind and possibly being anti social. Does that even matter at this point?
I am not an in-house separation expert but if it was me I would act like the king of my castle
! If I want to read I usually go to a quiet place. If she is on the couch watching TV then go to another room.
At this point it doesn't matter....the more space you can give your W the better without it seeming like you are running scared. It took me a solid 4 months of removing pressure from my W before she dropped her guard.
The quicker you stop all the R talks, being needy, reaching out to her all the time, questioning her the better off you will be. Walk around your house with confidence not arrogance. Also know she wants space so don't try to follow her around the house.
Get some new clothes, new hair cut, cologne, lotions, scrubs, new shoes, loose weight, get jacked, etc. Those things will help with your confidence. I guarantee you if you do all those things, you will feel better about yourself, it will increase your confidence and your W will start to gain respect for you. Your W will not respect you if your don't respect yourself. If you act scared all the time any respect she has for you will continue to diminish.
I started reading Chris73, but wasn't in the right frame of mind. When he started talking about Christmas and his W not wanting to be there, I started getting discouraged and depressed. I was having a bad day. I'll pick up again on it again shortly though.
The quicker you stop all the R talks, being needy, reaching out to her all the time, questioning her the better off you will be. Walk around your house with confidence not arrogance. Also know she wants space so don't try to follow her around the house.
That's all been done. It's the confidence and respect thing I'm trying to get a handle on now.
Okay, let's talk about the Alpha and Beta behavior. You are thinking too much about talking to your W. Too much talking is too Beta for most women. Lots and lots of talking is what women do......b/c that is how they are wired. Women are not attracted to a man who talks as much as she does. Do you understand what I mean? I don't mean to never say a word or have a conversation, but we aren't attracted to the chatty-cathy types. If there is a group of men, it's the strong silent type that draws the attraction of a woman.
When you do say something, lead with your words. You are the leader in your family, and in the M. You don't ask her permission, except in very specific circumstances. You tell her what you are doing, and then leave the decision to follow up to her. If she objects you can discuss it. However, not having a plan, or leaving all the planning to her......is Beta. Being weak-willed in how you execute your plan, or even indecisive as you speak to her about your plan, all of that is Beta. Knowing what you are going to do and then communicating that clearly to her is Alpha.
When you speak to her, maintain eye contact. Never drop your eyes or glance around nervously. If she interrupts, let her have her say. You do not interrupt her, b/c that's what women do......not what strong Alpha males do. When you speak.....do it slowly and quietly. You speak out of reason, not out of emotions. Always maintaining your eye contact with her.
An example of Alpha & Beta in an unpleasant situation where the WW is disrespecting the H, being a b'tch, throwing a fit, or whatever. Speaking quietly, but firmly to her, and if warranted, using harsh words and even profanity.....is a strong Alpha move. Pleading with her, whining, interrupting, and raising his tone over hers unnecessarily is Beta.
Learn to posture yourself like a "tall, dark, and handsome" Alpha. Stand and walk with your shoulders back and head held up. Don't slouch. When standing, keep your hands either behind your back, in your pocket. Don't use your hands to talk with. Make slow, deliberate actions, not quick, nervous or jerky.
When out in public with your W, grab her hand to lead her through a crowd. Use her elbow to steer her gently at parties. Place your hand on the small of her back. Put a possessive hand on her arm, her shoulder, or (most Alpha) the back of her neck. Loom ominously over her shoulder. But always ensure that it's YOU who is controlling the action.
Women like to be sexually dominated by a Alpha male. I don't mean domineering. Domineering is not dominating. Women are natural responders. Sometimes, the woman may like to initiate, but the Beta male is always waiting for the woman to lead, or decide, if there will be sex.....and that can lead to a SSM. The Apha male doesn't demand it, but if there's a reason there is no sex, he'll find out what it is....and it will be dealt with. The Beta suffers, while hoping and waiting for his W to call the shots in the bedroom.
If you will go on line and search for male dominance, you can find a beginner's guide that will give basic instructions. I doubt you will find much of it on this forum, but you can research it elsewhere.
MUCH clearer on what you mean. Thank you.
I just have to act like I am at work...
,,,I can do that.
I wish I could give you the link, but I don't think it would be hard to find on line.
Being the man at home like the man you are at work........is difficult for me to say, since I obviously can't observe you on the job. However, if you are in a position of authority, then you may be able to identify areas at home where you are lacking. Another reason I wanted you to pursue the subject of the Alpha male vs the Beta Male in the MR, is b/c the writers can break it down and speak more plainly about how women are sexually attracted and their response to their Alpha H........especially in intimate ways. It will be worth the read! I wish every man on the board would read it, whether or not they think they are already Alphas.
Ok, so I think I may have royally F'd things up.
Last night I was waiting for my W so we could leave for my youngest son's meeting. She came to put her shoes on and announced "I'm going to drive and drop you off because I have to go meet someone somewhere else." She didn't say who, so I assumed it was the OM. She said she was dropping us at the school and then going to a church.
In my quest to assert dominance, I said that I would drive and drop her off. She asked why, I said because that's what I want to do. She again asked why, I said "because that's my decision." She said "Your decision. You are such an ass," and said that always had to make things harder.
From what she said, it would make more sense for me to drop her at the church first since it was on the way to the school. She meant that she needed to go to the school and we were going to the church.
As we started driving she started in again about me driving and was getting loud. I told her she didnt need to yell or get upset with me, just talk to me. She said that she was mad at me for many reasons. I asked if she would care to share, she said "Not right now I wouldn't. "
She then started in with "you love me so much, you sure are proving it. You haven't text me in a week. You couldn't even make it three weeks texting me." I said all you would give me were one word answers, so I took that as you not wanting me to." "Yeah" was her reply.
Once we got the church things escalated. We get there and that's when I find out that the meeting is actually there and she was going to the school. I told her we could drop him off and I could take her. My heels were dug in at this point and all I was thinking was that I needed to stand my ground, but it really did make more sense for her to take the car. She was sceaming at me "why are you doing this?" Over and over and refused to get out of the car. I mean b@tsh!t crazy screaming. I remained calm and spoke at a normal leve the whole time. I have never seen her like this in 33 years.
Because my son was in the car and he did not need to see this, I relented and let her take the car.
On the way home, there were not many words between us. We spoke to our son and when we did speak, it was about his meeting. I tried to act as if nothing happened and appeared happy and positive.
When we got to our road, which is dirt, she slowed down and avoided the potholes where the pavement meets the dirt. I thanked her for going slowly over them. She replied "I'm mad at you, not your car." I busted out laughing. I mean rolling. It was hilarious. I could see her smiling and laughing a bit (probably at me). A minute or two later, still finding it funny, I stated chuckling again. She said "you're going to miss me when I'm gone."
A few hours later she was lying on the bed playing with her phone. I went in and closed the door. I told her the reason I dug my heels in is that I was offended that told me that she was taking my car instead of asking and that I understood her to say that she had to go to the church. She insisted that she asked if she could and that she said she had to go to the school not the church. That is not what she said originally.
I apologized for the misunderstanding and said that we should have taken a little more time to talk about it. (She has a bad habit of throwing things at me last second). She said that she tried, but I wouldn't listen to her and all I did was get mad at her. I told her I was never mad, just offended and that I'm trying. Overall, she was blaming me and having none of my explanation.
She went in to the kitchen to get dinner for my youngest son and started chirping about it again. I said "Ok, I'm going to start a fire." (We heat with wood) and left the room.
My oldest daughter saw this part and lipped to me "She's F@!%ing crazy!" More on this in another post. Things are worse between my kid and W than I imagined.
After I started the fire, I went to my Daughters' room to tell them something and ended up being in there over an hour talking. I'm sure that ticked my W off even more. She had a scowl on her face the rest of the night, but did manage to say goodnight to me when I said goodnight.
So, how bad did I screw this up? As I said, I have never seen her this angry
I wish I could give you the link, but I don't think it would be hard to find on line.
I've found a few things.
Being the man at home like the man you are at work........is difficult for me to say, since I obviously can't observe you on the job. However, if you are in a position of authority, then you may be able to identify areas at home where you are lacking.
I am and my employees will.walk through fire for me.
Another reason I wanted you to pursue the subject of the Alpha male vs the Beta Male in the MR, is b/c the writers can break it down and speak more plainly about how women are sexually attracted and their response to their Alpha H........especially in intimate ways. It will be worth the read!
I'm sure it will be, anything intake is a looking way off at this point.
Why do you think it is coming soon? Are you sure it's not more you wanting to "do something"?
Of course I want to do something. I say this because of a few things she has said.
Before I came to this site and was trying to get her to talk, she said it was "too sad to do before Christmas." She also said on another day that "She didn't want to give me false hope." At one point I told her I wasn't giving up on "us." Her reply was simply "we'll see."
The way she was raging yesterday may be all part of the process, but it sure felt as though there was another message behind it.
And as I mentioned, today I see that she has a "friend" on Facebook who is a divorce lawyer. I never noticed that "friend" before.
I want to make sure I'm not caught off guard if the conversation comes and make it go as well as possible.
Maybe Im misreading, but I want you to try to remember that choosing to "Do Nothing"
IS doing something.
What Im saying is that you can and should certainly go out and figure out your rights and understand what ramifications a divorce would have on you, your finances, your family, etc.
But you should not do anything involving HER with the information you learn, with the things you saw while snooping, etc.
Be ready, be prepared, keep reading, keep learning and GAL. Those are doing SOMETHING, even if it isnt immediately and directly related to your sitch.
R,
That's the problem with still living together and the A being a secret. She is looking for any reason to be pi$$ed off at you so she can justify having an A.
Could you imagine how you would feel right now if you didn't know about the A.
I'll say it again, sometimes things have to get worse before they can get any better.
That's the problem with still living together and the A being a secret. She is looking for any reason to be pi$$ed off at you so she can justify having an A.
And boy, is she ever.
Iquote=LH19]I'll say it again, sometimes things have to get worse before they can get any better. [/quote]
I think the storm is just getting going...
I was a K9 handler and trainer in the Army for 10 years and I recently had some self reflection with this.
Long story short... I had to medically retire (injuries from deployments) but i did not want to. I was extremely well know, respected and loved my job.
Once I got out and my wife went back to work... I had a really hard time. I went from getting out of the house, being in charge of everyone around me and being saught out for help to being Mr. Dad. 3 kids, 7,5,3.
I got really depressed (other factors as well) but in general, I didn't like who I was anymore and it was a massive change.
After my wife DB, thru C and some inner reflection I realized that I was NOT a person anyone would want to be around. My negativity cloud spilled out to everyone around me. My wife used to say... " how can you be such a good dog handler... And so bad at being a husband" (rightfully so at times).
I changed my mind set and started structure my days as a stay at home spouse, like I was back in the Army.
I wrote down daily goals and weekly goals
Kept myself in check for doing house work and keeping a good home.
I've been scouring this forum for a bit now and just recently started posting and haven't got my sitch out... But I thought I would share some things that helped me be the same person at home and work.
Ok, so I think I may have royally F'd things up.
Last night I was waiting for my W so we could leave for my youngest son's meeting. She came to put her shoes on and announced "I'm going to drive and drop you off because I have to go meet someone somewhere else." She didn't say who, so I assumed it was the OM. She said she was dropping us at the school and then going to a church.
A perfect example of her taking the dominate position. This is exactly what
you should be saying to
her. Not her saying it to you. Get it? Look at how she stated it. She was in charge, and giving you no real information or details about her business.
In my quest to assert dominance, I said that I would drive and drop her off. She asked why, I said because that's what I want to do. She again asked why, I said "because that's my decision." She said "Your decision. You are such an ass," and said that always had to make things harder.
It was an immediate power struggle. The battle was on! And, unfortunately, she won, b/c she is much better at this than you.
As we started driving she started in again about me driving and was getting loud. I told her she didnt need to yell or get upset with me, just talk to me. She said that she was mad at me for many reasons. I asked if she would care to share, she said "Not right now I wouldn't. "
Okay, let me point out a couple of things.......so you can learn from your mistakes. First, you should not tolerate her yelling at you in front of your son. That should be a boundary. Never tolerate your W showing disrespect toward you in front of others......especially your children. They learn from watching you. Your son needs to know how to deal with a horsey, b'itchy WW.........least he becomes another Beta male.
The second mistake in the above quote is that instead of putting her in her in her place (Libbers will love this!) you invited your disrespecting W to just share with you. Not very Alpha.
She then started in with "you love me so much, you sure are proving it. You haven't text me in a week. You couldn't even make it three weeks texting me." I said all you would give me were one word answers, so I took that as you not wanting me to." "Yeah" was her reply.
More of the same........and all in front of your son.
Once we got the church things escalated. We get there and that's when I find out that the meeting is actually there and she was going to the school. I told her we could drop him off and I could take her. My heels were dug in at this point and all I was thinking was that I needed to stand my ground, but it really did make more sense for her to take the car. She was sceaming at me "why are you doing this?" Over and over and refused to get out of the car. I mean b@tsh!t crazy screaming. I remained calm and spoke at a normal leve the whole time. I have never seen her like this in 33 years
Her heels were dug in deeper than yours. She is very wayward, and she is showing the fruits of what has been building over the years. Perhaps you failed to see it in the past b/c you always handed the reigns to her, and it had to get this dramatic to open your eyes.
Because my son was in the car and he did not need to see this, I relented and let her take the car.
OMG!
I don't know which was worse, him seeing this behavior played out before him......or his dad relenting to it.
On the way home, there were not many words between us. We spoke to our son and when we did speak, it was about his meeting. I tried to act as if nothing happened and appeared happy and positive.
Great, now he thinks this is suppose to be normal behavior between spouses..........or else both his parents are wacko.
When we got to our road, which is dirt, she slowed down and avoided the potholes where the pavement meets the dirt. I thanked her for going slowly over them.
Um......no! Sounds too much like, "I'll play extra nice now, so maybe you won't be so mad at me". The woman made meatloaf out of you.....in front of your son, and now you are like some little junior high school girl saying, "Oh, thanks ever so much for not knocking the bottom out of the car".
She replied "I'm mad at you, not your car." I busted out laughing. I mean rolling. It was hilarious. I could see her smiling and laughing a bit (probably at me). A minute or two later, still finding it funny, I stated chuckling again. She said "you're going to miss me when I'm gone."
Seriously?! It is not funny, whatsoever. She acted horrible earlier and now everyone will just have a laugh and forget about it?
A few hours later she was lying on the bed playing with her phone. I went in and closed the door. I told her the reason I dug my heels in is that I was offended that told me that she was taking my car instead of asking and that I understood her to say that she had to go to the church. She insisted that she asked if she could and that she said she had to go to the school not the church. That is not what she said originally.
Oh Lordy, Lordy! Beta, Beta, Beta. You should have been telling her that you will not be disrespected in front of your son ever again. And then tell her what to expect if she EVER tries to pull that stunt again.
I apologized for the misunderstanding and said that we should have taken a little more time to talk about it.
Noooooooooo............please tell me you did not apologize!
I told her I was never mad, just offended and that I'm trying
.
Why.......why.......why???
Overall, she was blaming me and having none of my explanation.
Exactly! You should not have been apologizing and explaining how hurt you were and how you are trying, etc., etc. Why were you defending yourself? That's what nice-guys do. They explain and explain, b/c they want to make up with the W. But the problem is that she is the one who is wrong. She is the wayward! Can you see how this was you staying in the submission role, b/c it feels more comfortable to you. And, she still comes out being in the dominating position.
So, how bad did I screw this up? As I said, I have never seen her this angry
Here's the thing. This was not just a one time scr@w up. This has been a pattern in your marriage relationship. She has you on trial, and you are knocking yourself out to prove to her what a good H you can be. But as long as she is in the dominating position, you will never be the H she truly desires.
I hope you will see that I was not trying to shred you apart, but use your post to demonstrate what I have recently tried to explain. It really is a perfect example of Beta behavior, and what not to do with a WW.
I think you need to do a lot of studying about the nice guy syndrome, and the Alpha vs Beta males. You really need to grasp it, and not use it as some technique. It makes me so sad to think that you believed you were making the right moves, and that you truely couldn't see your mistakes. Or......could you? You knew you f'cked up, but did you know how? Were you assuming you messed up....b/c the night ended with your WW still pi$$ed at you? Was that the determining factor?
"you invited your disrespecting W to just share with you. Not very Alpha"
Wow, I'm bot trying to jack your thread but there are so many similarities in my life. After the BD, I find it hard to 'stand my ground' and be okay with conflict.
Agree with Sandi, your mistake was that when she started yelling at you, you should have pulled the car over and told her to get out, and then driven away.
If you don't stand up for yourself, she can't count on you to stand up for her, and in that context she has to be the leader and doesn't feel "safe" in a relationship with you.
Although standing up to her will make her furiously angry in the moment, that is the RIGHT outcome when she's acting like an ass. Although she will be outwardly angry at you, she will respect you more and feel better about you, and that is FAR more important than restoring the peace in the moment.
Repeat this phrase to yourself over and over until you believe it: "She doesn't like it? Too bad."
Acc
sandi,
As I have said, I want honest feedback.
I posted this interaction because I knew it went terribly wrong and I want to learn from my mistakes.
That being said, I do have to disagree with some of what you said about the interaction in front of my son.
First, you should not tolerate her yelling at you in front of your son. That should be a boundary. Never tolerate your W showing disrespect toward you in front of others......especially your children. They learn from watching you.
I agree 100%.
OMG!
I don't know which was worse, him seeing this behavior played out before him......or his dad relenting to it.
This I diagree with and here is why.
When I said she went "b@tsh!t crazy," I mean off the charts psycho. There was no calming her down and the situation needed to be deescalated immediately. I had an eight year old in the back seat who was terrified. After this incident he clung to me the rest of the night and would not talk to my W. He did not need to witness what was happening.
A little background on myself to help explain my position on this.
I grew up with a manic depressive, bipolar alcoholic father and I witnessed many such interactions between him and my mother growing up. The main difference being that he was always the aggressor.
I still remember the anxiety and fear I felt then so strongly it is as of it happend only yesterday. The thing is, its been 40 years. I don't know if you have ever been in a situation like that, but it is something that always stays with you. I have recurring dreams about it still to this day. I yell in my sleep when I have them. Sometimes I wake up, sometimes my W has to wake me to get me to stop.
I have never told anyone about these dreams - not even my W. Until now that is.
I'm not telling you this for sympathy. I am telling you so you understand why I shut it down the way I did.
If my man status had to go down a few notches to protect my son from having memories like this, so be it. I would rather that than the alternative.
Look at how she stated it. She was in charge, and giving you no real information or details about her business.
This is how we both have been lately. I started doing this as well when I started trying to do what you recommend. Admittedly, it does come easier to her.
She then started in with "you love me so much, you sure are proving it. You haven't text me in a week. You couldn't even make it three weeks texting me." I said all you would give me were one word answers, so I took that as you not wanting me to." "Yeah" was her reply.
What would have been a better response?
or else both his parents are wacko.
He definitely thinks his mother is. More explanation on that in another post. I have some questions on the kids I need to ask tomorrow.
Exactly! You should not have been apologizing and explaining how hurt you were and how you are trying, etc., etc. Why were you defending yourself? That's what nice-guys do. They explain and explain, b/c they want to make up with the W. But the problem is that she is the one who is wrong. She is the wayward! Can you see how this was you staying in the submission role, b/c it feels more comfortable to you. And, she still comes out being in the dominating position.
I see that now.
I hope you will see that I was not trying to shred you apart, but use your post to demonstrate what I have recently tried to explain.
As I said, thick skin.
I think you need to do a lot of studying about the nice guy syndrome, and the Alpha vs Beta males.
At first I thought you were calling me a psychopath since that is essentially what the first ten articles on "nice guy syndrome" were saying. I finally found a couple that explain it in context of marriage and yes, I can see that I do have some of those tendencies with my W.
you believed you were making the right moves, and that you truely couldn't see your mistakes. Or......could you?
After the fact, yes, I could.
Were you assuming you messed up....b/c the night ended with your WW still pi$$ed at you? Was that the determining factor?
I knew I messed up because I didn't feel like I gained any ground by the time it was over.
I don't get it. She is the only one that can do that to me.
I never realized it until this started.
Repeat this phrase to yourself over and over until you believe it: "She doesn't like it? Too bad."
That is essentially what I was telling myself when that interaction started.
I don't think I have detached as much as I thought I had. Any tips on doing this quickly?
Any tips on doing this quickly?
Build your relationships outside of the marriage. If you have a network of people who like you, care about you, and hold you in high esteem, you will care less about what your wife thinks of you because your perception of your value won't be solely invested there.
Now I have some questions about what I should be doing about my kids.
My W and I have five children, S23, D21, D18, D14, and S8 (just turned). All of them are my W and my biological children and all are still living at home; D21 and D18 are in college. S23 was a Junior in college when he had to put it on hold due to a medical condition that will sometimes keep him in bed for days at a time. They all have jobs (the only thing keeping S23 sane at the moment) but do not make enough to support themselves. S23 cannot live on his own at this point.
Since this has started, my W’s relationship with all of them has been steadily going downhill. S23 knows something is wrong, but takes the approach that it isn’t his problem. Can’t blame him since he has enough on his plate trying to maintain his health, although I can tell this is affecting him. I have not had a conversation with him about this yet.
We homeschool, so D14 and S8 are around my W constantly. They are not the stereotypical homeschooled kids, so don’t think that they lack in social skills. They are very outgoing and have many friends who go to public schools.
I have been trying to give more attention to S8 and reassure him all that I can that both his mother and I love him very much. He has said to me on one occasion that my W spends too much time playing with her phone. Another occasion he told me that “mom is crazy.” I dismissed this as him repeating what he has heard his sisters say, but I have been told about other things he has said which I will get to later.
I have had conversations with my three D’s, mostly trying to reassure them that I am doing what I can to get my W back in to the family. I have never pried for information nor have I told them exactly what is going on. I have, however, told them that if there is anything they want to talk about, I was there to listen. They could say whatever they wanted and it would stay confidential. If they don’t want to talk to me about it, that would be fine too, but don’t keep it inside and let it eat them up.
D14 is my W’s “mini me” and is very close to her. She is doing her best to pretend that this is not happening, but she knows something is up. She is fiercely loyal to my W, but has opened up slightly to me and said that my W is more of a friend than a mother now and that W is letting her and S8 get away with a lot more than she ever has. D14 has said that my W’s patience is much shorter than it used to be and D14 really doesn’t talk to mom that much anymore and doesn’t care to be around her as much either. She has also complained about her phone usage, nights out, rarely cooking anymore and stated that she would “rather have her mom, not a friend.”
D23 and D18 have been a little more candid about it and I have had two in-depth conversations with the both of them at the same time. The first was a few days after New Year’s Day and the second was Monday night after my W and I got home from S8’s meeting.
The first conversation we had was shorter and this was the first time I tried to reassure them. They didn’t open up much, but did say a few things. They both believed that my W is in a MLC, which was the cause of her treating me the way she was and her constant nights out. At this point my wife had been out nine of the previous 15 nights. They also said they didn’t want to be around her and that she was obsessed with her phone and Facebook. W discovered Facebook in September or October and started finding old friends, mainly from high school, and this is who she has been telling us that she is going out with along with her two best friends. They were also tired of her complaining and “b!tch!ng,” as they put it. When I said I was doing all I could, D18 said that she hopes mom comes back before she does anything “more stupid that she has already done.” When she said it, it sounded like she was trying to give me a hint as to what was going on. I left that comment alone, but I do believe that they both either know about the A, or at least strongly suspect it and do not want to be the ones to break it to me. I don’t want them to do that either, so I don’t come close to that subject.
Conversation number two was much more open and bleaker than I expected. I learned some things that I had no idea about and are shocking to me.
Earlier in the evening my W was still mad about earlier events and was not being nice to anyone. D21 lipped to me “She’s f***ing crazy” when my W snapped at D21 from the other room. Later, I went to their bedroom to tell D18 something, and D21 asked me what “mom’s problem is now.” I closed the door and gave them a brief synopsis on what had happened between us that evening. No real details, but enough to let them know that something had occurred.
This is when D21 started talking. A lot. She told me how she felt about the situation and that her mother “needs to stop acting like a child” and get “over herself.” She also said that she couldn’t believe anyone could destroy their family the way my W was. She also couldn’t understand how a mother could hurt her kids like this, especially D14 and S8. They both also told me that they are tired of my W’s “party girl” attitude and that the last time my W asked D21 to play taxi service to the younger kids, she replied (in a text message) “Why? So you can go out drinking again?” My wife didn’t reply and wouldn’t talk to her for days after that. I tried to explain to them that my W is not in a good place right now, so we need to give her some space to sort it out. Arguing with her was not going to do any good.
She went on to tell me that she doesn’t want to talk to her and doesn’t even like to be in the same room with her mother. D18 echoed these feelings. I told both D21 and D18 that I had noticed that when my W is not home they will come out and socialize with the rest of the family, but as soon as my W gets home, they both leave for their bedroom. I also told them that it makes me sad to hear because they were always so close to their mother and that I’ve always been a bit envious of their relationship, but I don’t want to see it end though. D18 said that she has never really felt that close to her mother until the past couple of years, but now it is all but gone. D21 said that their relationship will never be the same. Especially since my W told her a few weeks ago that it was “time for her to move out.” This was the first I had heard of this.
I told D21 that she had a home here no matter what her mother says. I promised all of my kids free room and board while they were in school and since I can’t pay for school, I can at least do that for them. Kicking her out now would be devastating to her plans for her education, so she can stay as long as she needs to.
The conversation then moved to things that had been said between D21 and S8. They both have always been close and D21 is almost like a surrogate mother to S8 at times. D21 told me that S8 was telling her how he doesn’t like the way my W is acting, asking why she is always texting and that I am his “new favorite parent.” While that makes me feel good to know he loves me, it hurts to know she is hurting him this way. D21 also told me that D8 said that D14 would make a better mother to him than my W. Ouch. A few other things that he said were told to me and they are just as sad and indicate he does not like what my W is doing.
I asked D21 if she had tried talking to my W and she said she had, but W would not listen to her, dismissed what she was saying and got mad. D21 then said she is thinking about sending a text to my W telling her these things, especially what S8 has said, because she knows she will read it all. I asked her to hold off on this idea for a little bit.
Aside from what I have been told from the kids, I have noticed a major change in their relationships with their mother. They have been lashing out at her more and being very passive aggressive at times. They are tired of her binge watching Netflix, so one of my daughters changed the password and claimed she didn’t know what happened. My W’s phone charger disappeared and I know one of them took it for the same reason.
So, my questions are:
1. Should I say anything to my W about what the kids are saying or would that be futile at this point? I am leaning toward the latter, but it is very hard to watch this happen. She was always an awesome mother, but now she just doesn’t seem to care.
2. Is there anything I or the kids could do to snap her back to reality at least with them?
3. Should D21 send that text to her mother? Would it make things worse for them or between my W and me? Would she even listen? If things get worse for my W and me, I could deal with that. I don’t want to see the kids lose their mother in the process though.
4. If the text is sent, what should and should not be said that would drive her further away?
I know my W is starting to blame everyone in the house for her actions (I heard her say the other night "why is everyone here so mean to me?"), so is she just going to continue to justify her A even at the kids expense?
Any input would be appreciated.
This is when D21 started talking. A lot. She told me how she felt about the situation and that her mother “needs to stop acting like a child” and get “over herself.” She also said that she couldn’t believe anyone could destroy their family the way my W was. She also couldn’t understand how a mother could hurt her kids like this, especially D14 and S8. They both also told me that they are tired of my W’s “party girl” attitude and that the last time my W asked D21 to play taxi service to the younger kids, she replied (in a text message) “Why? So you can go out drinking again?” My wife didn’t reply and wouldn’t talk to her for days after that. I tried to explain to them that my W is not in a good place right now, so we need to give her some space to sort it out. Arguing with her was not going to do any good.
Hmm, on the contrary I would empower them to speak up to your W and establish boundaries about how they will and will not be treated. By advising them to give your W space and not argue, you're basically telling them to just roll over and accept whatever treatment they're given. I don't think that's a good message for them.
They shouldn't be passive aggressive, they shouldn't be disrespectful, but they *should* absolutely stand up for themselves.
Another thing I have to ask is if your W is the homeschool teacher? If so, it may make sense to put them in a regular school given her current state of mind. It would probably also be good to get them out of the house for several hours a day given everything that's going on.
Are you open to having them attend school?
In terms of your questions:
1) No, she won't care what you have to say about it
2) No. The kids should stand up for themselves and you should back them up if your W is acting inappropriately toward them or speaking inappropriately toward them.
3) D21 should feel empowered to express how she's feeling however she wants to do it, including via text. You should not be in the middle of that as if W feels you're influencing D21 she will disregard what D21 has to say.
4) That's not the point, D21 isn't playing a game to try to entice W back, she's trying to express how she feels. That should be the focus. W doesn't like it? Too bad.
I strongly suggest you get some DB coaching or "nice guy" coaching via in-person or over the telephone one on one.
You've become programmed to defer to your wife, accept her abuse, and put her needs and feelings above your own.
Continuing to act that way while your W is off the reservation is going to make your situation worse and will be a bad example for your kids, but you're not going to be able to stop doing it alone, your whole perspective of "the right thing to do" is off center based upon how you've been treated and how you've been living.
You need outside perspective and just trying to get it here is not enough. Talk to a pro -- in person -- to help you. W's behavior is not okay. You enabling W's behavior is not okay either.
You need to change your point of reference on this situation and you will need help to do that.
Acc
I agree that you need to validate your kids feelings, and not tell them they have to put up with W. Trying to put yourself in between as a buffer is just going to end badly. Especially the grown up ones. But do not undercut the relationship, either. That is important.
I also agree that maybe public school would be a decent choice for the littler ones. Esp. if your wife is looking at moving out.
Hmm, on the contrary I would empower them to speak up to your W and establish boundaries about how they will and will not be treated. By advising them to give your W space and not argue, you're basically telling them to just roll over and accept whatever treatment they're given. I don't think that's a good message for them.
I agree with what you are saying here and that is the way I was leaning. I told them that mainly to buy a little time until I could figure out how they should handle it.
Another thing I have to ask is if your W is the homeschool teacher?
Yes, she is.
It would probably also be good to get them out of the house for several hours a day given everything that's going on.
They are M-F they have evening activities they do (Dance, Karate, etc.) Problem is, W takes them three days per week, I take them two. My work schedule doesn't have me home in time to go more.
D14 and S8 have been asking me to take them out to the movies and other places lately, so we have plans for Saturday night, just the three of us. I think they are feeling the pressure at home and want to get away, just as you said.
Are you open to having them attend school?
I am and have considered it. W would not go for it in any way, shape or form. In order to do it I would have to figure out a way to get it accomplished and get the W on board. I have to be at work before school starts and don't get home until well after school is out, so she could easily stop it if she is not in agreement.
Honestly, I think that is one of the things keeping her from moving out/filing for D. She would have to get a job and put the kids in school.
4) That's not the point, D21 isn't playing a game to try to entice W back, she's trying to express how she feels. That should be the focus. W doesn't like it? Too bad.
I ask that not because I am afraid of W getting further away from me, although I am. I ask because I don't want her getting further away from the kids. As I said, she has always been an awesome mother and D21 has always been very close to her. I don't want a situation like in my family. My older sibling still will not willingly talk to our father because of the way he treated/cheated on our mother. I don't want that to happen here.
You've become programmed to defer to your wife, accept her abuse, and put her needs and feelings above your own.
I finished reading sandi2's threads "Help for LBH who has a WW." I never realized that what you are saying there is true until I read those threads. I have
always put her, what she wanted and her feelings first. I rarely told her how I was feeling because I didn't want to hurt
her feelings (not that I have never hurt her feelings. I have, inadvertently). I am definitely guilty of helping to create the monster I have on my hands now.
Continuing to act that way while your W is off the reservation is going to make your situation worse and will be a bad example for your kids, but you're not going to be able to stop doing it alone, your whole perspective of "the right thing to do" is off center based upon how you've been treated and how you've been living.
I see that. It is the way I grew up, so I have always accepted it as "normal" I guess. I am seeing that she is like my father (and hers) in many ways.
The good news is that I am standing up to her more. The two times I have needed to in the past week (since the blow up), I have stood my ground and got my point across. I wouldn't say that they were perfect replies, but she got the point that I wasn't going to take her crap. It is a work in progress though.
Thanks, Acc.
I agree that you need to validate your kids feelings, and not tell them they have to put up with W.
I'm not trying to tell them to put up with it, I want them to respond in the best possible way, but I can see that it sounds that way. D21 and S23 are the only ones who will stand up to her out of the kids.
Trying to put yourself in between as a buffer is just going to end badly.
This is true, but I guess I am in "protection mode" a bit with them. I still see the adult kid as children sometimes.
But do not undercut the relationship, either. That is important.
My goal is to
protect their relationships.
I also agree that maybe public school would be a decent choice for the littler ones. Esp. if your wife is looking at moving out.
As I said to Acc, I think that is one of two things stopping her at this point. I wouldn't be opposed to public school at this point though. They don't need the 24 hr stress of this.
I know you're trying to protect them and their relationship with their mom.
I was just warning to swing the pendulum to neutral and be careful of it swinging too far the other way. You weren't way over on your W's side, there, but excusing her actions may make the kids feel like they're not being heard, and they really need to be heard by you right now. They need you more now than they probably ever will again in their lives, so make sure it's about them, their feelings, and their experiences, not about your W when they want to talk.
Validating can easily turn into agreeing with their feelings, which can sneak into alienation, which is why I had a warning about that.
Keep up the good work you're doing, and perfect and correct as you go along. That's about all any of us can do.
rminer,
This is a super tough situation you're in with the kids and the homeschool angle. I don't believe you're using the homeschooling as a lever to keep her in the house, but if you are I'd try to train yourself not to think of it that way.
If you truly believe that your kids would be better served by going to public or private school right now, then you should tell your W.
This is not her decision alone to make -- you have an equal say in the matter, and if it goes in front of a judge you will likely prevail.
Your situation will benefit by you standing up to your W, and this is an opportunity to do so -- strongly.
Secondly, the responsibility for maintaining the relationship between your daughters and your wife does not fall on you. It also does not fall on your daughters -- it is your wife's responsibility.
Her current behavior of having tantrums and then doing "silent treatment" is immature in the extreme and should not be tolerated by anyone, including your daughters. That is toxic behavior and their lives would frankly be better off without that influence.
If she can't behave in a manner necessary to maintain her relationship with her adult children, that is her loss. Perhaps that loss will motivate her to do the work necessary to restore the relationships, or maybe she'll continue to regard herself as a victim forever.
Your daughter deserves a relationship with an emotionally healthy mother. If your W isn't up for that, your D is better off cutting her off.
Acc