Welcome to my new thread My tenth-- (Shouldn't I get some kind of pin or medal or gold watch or something at this point?). My previous thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2770606&page=1
My Sitch. Further gory details in my previous threads, of course, but this might save you some trouble:
My sitch, if you haven't been following it:
In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. By the time of BD in January, actually when I overheard convo between her and OM talking, it would have been a stretch to say we were even "friends".
I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.
Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.
Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.
I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without explicitly promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.
A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.
At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff (until very recently), and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.
We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she had been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone. Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC assigned us some reading to do as well as some self-exploration exercises, and we were supposed to circle back with her in a week or two. However, life happened and we didn't get back with MC until six weeks after that intensive.
W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling on a more regular basis, that it "helps" and that things always "seem better" right after our sessions. While she has several times mentioned IC, which we both agree is likely a must for full reconciliation, she has not yet pulled the trigger on that and has shown varying degrees of commitment to it. There have been similar ups and downs with the joint counselling-- sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse-- although she has in general been much more engaged with that than with the IC.
MC said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact--generally starting small, lighter touches, progressing to more intimate.) W agreed that 1 and 2 were necessary, and is coming around about 3, but admits it feels awkward and weird. We've had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.
About two months ago, she experienced a set-back/pull-back. She became quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even through out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the month after that time (November) was generally stagnant, maybe even kind of a downswing. She had bounced back quite a bit from that setback, though she still has "down" spells.
I am not monitoring her regularly, though I was spot checking from time to time. I've even stopped doing that now, though last check probably a month ago showed her driving by OM's old hangout... but she did not stop or go in or. And, near as I can tell, has not contacted him in any way recently.
Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and the OM. She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.)
In early December, I found out that... BFF IS DEFINITELY MOVING TO FLA (1000 miles away) when her D is final!!!! This definitely wont hurt my wife's recovery.
For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so. Since Christmas, however, I have made the time to go out a couple of times with friends, even without W.
In mid December, things turned a bit weird over a drunken kiss we "shared", and about her visit to a department store near OM's hangout. The details of that are extensive, and very pertinent my present sitch, and are detailed in my 8th thread which escalated ridiculously fast due to many many people chiming in with a number of insightful and thoughtful posts. In sum, it led to me questioning MY commitment to this process due to W's response (or lack thereof) to the kiss, her take on the likelihood of us getting physical ever again (not very), and my memory of her and OM in the not too distant past discussing in some detail how they were going to do that very thing. (She REALLY wants to live here, with me knowing she wanted and was willing to get it on with the OM, and at the same time telling me that that aint gonna happen with us? I tend to get madder every second i think about it.) Her somewhat shaky commitment to the process of MC and reconcilliation is also troublesome,
That shaky commitment somewhat carried over to my previous thread which mostly covered the holidays which were... good. W did not have much if any of her usual holiday blues, spent a bunch of time doing family and holiday stuff, celebrating, etc., was very open and active and eager regarding our trip to see her folks and mine out of state, whereas previously in the fall she had seemed very reluctant and hesitant about that. We definitely warmed up a bit during the holidays themselves, and she was becoming more receptive to touch and spending time in bed closer to or holding each other.
But just in the past few days....
W in a funk the past few days. And after being in fairly regular touch with her toxic bff over the weekend. Go figure. Can't imagine why she hangs out with and idolizes so much someone who makes her feel so crappy (and who has such sketchy values and morals), but, whatever.
She's declined a couple of invites to go out, which is new, and now come to find out she wants to meet up with bff on her "early off" day on Friday. I've come to realize I can't control who she hangs out with but... it turns out that bff's AP (who had been a friend of mine until he betrayed my own best friend--who was also a mutual friend of ours-- by having an A with my best friend's wife--my W's bff. Don't know why this bothers me so much except for the fact that a) my W didn't see fit to mention it (I found out from my own best friend-- I haven't told W I know and she has no reason to suspect I know though she knows I loathe bff's AP and that I totally disapprove of the whole situation/dynamic and b) W's bff and bff's AP are both in the know about my own W's affair-- and my W recently "lied" to me by saying that bff's AP did NOT know about it. (I let that slide because it didn't seem all that pertinent but it's been bothering me more and more.)
Anyway, I'm not going to flip out about it... I'll probably be doing something myself with friends that evening... but I am definitely not taking it as a "good sign".
Wondering at all if I should say something about it or not-- my MC would tell me in the spirit of openness and honesty that I definitely need to do so, but I am thinking that the DB-ing handbook would suggest I just ignore it.
Man I wish that troublesome trollop would just hurry the heck up and move out of state already.
My plan is that fairly soon-- probably after S19 goes back to college this Sunday-- I will have the talk with her about what we are working towards-- either it is a full, intimate, physical marriage, or it is nothing. I'm not going to live in a sham or "half" marriage
From what I gather, living in limbo is this side of hell. It is obvious you are a verbal person. I am, too. That was the method I saw that worked for my parents. So, when I married a non-verbal guy, I had many talks with him. One-sided talks that never led to the results I wanted. Frankly, I think you would have better results if you stopped talking as though you were leaving the M up to her. Approach her like,
"This relationship we currently have is not working for me. I have decided I will not continue to live in a sham or half marriage. I don't want a friendship, I want a marriage, in every sense of the word. I will not continue a relationship where I don't know if my W is committed to our M". I hope you get a commitment from her, but it may be only the words. I don't think she's emotionally committed. I don't think it would take that long for her to get there, if she thought you were truly out of her life. (And as long as you live in the same house, it won't have the same effect). If she thought you would not be there as her friend, whenever she wanted you, and had to actually experience it. So far, friendship is all that you've had from her.
So, what do you plan to do if you walk away from the conversation without a clear answer, or the one you desire?
Oh, and Jim, keep your talk short and simple. Tough for people like us, but it will be more effective in this particular case. ((hugs))
I hope you get a commitment from her, but it may be only the words. I don't think she's emotionally committed. I don't think it would take that long for her to get there, if she thought you were truly out of her life. (And as long as you live in the same house, it won't have the same effect). If she thought you would not be there as her friend, whenever she wanted you, and had to actually experience it. So far, friendship is all that you've had from her.
So, what do you plan to do if you walk away from the conversation without a clear answer, or the one you desire?
Oh, and Jim, keep your talk short and simple. Tough for people like us, but it will be more effective in this particular case. ((hugs))
and do not allow her any wiggle room... i feel as though i know what your wife is thinking... i see many similarities between her and me... you cannot allow her to have a say in how she is going to come back to the marriage... she will be vague... she will want to do things "her way." you must require immediate IC... i am baffled that you have yet to require this of her... and you must get a solid commitment from her, and not, "let's see how it goes."
i get that you love your wife, and she's hot and beautiful and everything nice, but you deserve better... you deserve a real marriage...
p.s.--we too went to a vintage local theater during the holidays... we saw Shop Around the Corner...
--artista
I am in agreement with all you and artista are saying. My one question is timing. And this is going to come off as awfully manipulative but... I just don't want this other person involved-- should I wait until after she has had her get together with bff on Friday? The thought of her "running to bff arms" and getting all the psycho-babble "me first" bullspit that passes for support and advice with that woman makes me want to puke.
Just thinking it would be better for her to be able to digest the whole sitch on her own, without bff (who, unless I am mistaken, leaves for FL on Sunday)
Why do you think timing will make a difference? She can just easily call/skype or even take a trip out to see bff in FL and get whatever she wants from that.
You've waited a buncha times now to have this conversation. I think you need to have it and not worry about what will happen after. W will find enablers deep in the ocean floor if she wants to.
on one hand, i suppose you have waited this long... a few more days will not hurt...
on the other hand, having the conversation after bff leaves may give you a false start... i experienced false starts when i thought i would commit to my marriage because something else in my life was going bad, or i was losing something in my life...
my commitment would last for a while, and then i would fall away again (see what psysara is experiencing with her H)...
Oh, and the other thing WRT timing, even more important, is that S19 is going back to college on Sunday. He has some mild learning disabilities (dyslexia and adhd and "cluttered hearing" type stuff and struggled last semester and only at the end started to get his feet under him. Not sure I want to be the "hinstigator" of a family crisis right before he goes back.
So think I can wait until sunday night or Monday. Will also give me a chance to do some temp checking of my own.
So think I can wait until sunday night or Monday. Will also give me a chance to do some temp checking of my own.
Like what?
, what do you plan to do if you walk away from the conversation without a clear answer, or the one you desire?
My preference would obviously be to lay it down just like that, and then really walk away if I don't get the answer that I need and say that I need more than that.
But it's likely that it won't be that simple, no matter which way she goes. If she actually is committed, and think she is doing enough, she's going to say so. If she is not so committed, and is waffling, she will certainly say "well what specifically would you like me to do", and /or "what haven't I done".
I don't want it to turn into a R convo, but she will try very hard to make it so. She is very sharp, and very quick, especially in conversation. Perhaps even more so than I am and that is my profession. I do of course have a long laundry list of reasons I don't feel secure in the MR right now, all of which have been discussed on this for I'm at one point or another, but I don't feel at all comfortable going into all of that right now nor do I think I should, which sentiment you seem to be in agreement with when you tell me to keep it short.
I guess to simplify, my question is, what's the best way to handle it when she tries to drag it down into the weeds and talk about specific issues.
Jim,
Do not have that conversation unless you are willing to walk and not look back if you do not get the answer you want.
IMO if you do and then waffle it will be game over and you will be stuck in the friend until she finds someone else.
You been putting up with this BS for over a year. It's time to put on your big boy pants and tell her what you need from her.
,
My preference would obviously be to lay it down just like that, and then really walk away if I don't get the answer that I need and say that I need more than that.
But it's likely that it won't be that simple, no matter which way she goes. If she actually is committed, and think she is doing enough, she's going to say so. If she is not so committed, and is waffling, she will certainly say "well what specifically would you like me to do", and /or "what haven't I done".
then you are not ready to have this conversation... this, what you have written here, says you are not ready to move on from limbo...
it does NOT matter if she thinks she is doing enough... of course she thinks that... but she is NOT... specifically she is not in IC... specifically she is not having a physical relationship with you... there...
if you cannot get that from her, you do need to walk away... but if you cannot walk away after she tells you she is doing all that she can, then DO NOT approach her with this... DO NOT have this conversation... you will end up where you already are... and you will look even weaker...
--artista
LH19, I appreciate you trying to pump me up and "steel my spine" to do what has to be done, but...
Playing devil's advocate here, let's not overstate the "BS I've been putting up with for over a year". Aside from the fact that it has not yet been a year (close, yes, but not quite), a lot of the "BS" since, well, probably August could easily be said to be the result of where you're standing when you're looking at it. Her "behavior", with one or two exceptions, has been, objectively, exemplary. No contact that i can discern with OM, no outward signs of disrespect towards me, and (although, yes, I did not insist on "enough" when the SHTF in july) what I didinsist on she has complied with. Only exception being arguably and I stress arguably WRT the counseling, which I insisted had to be a component going forward. My implication there was obviously that we would follow the advice of the MC (which, in our case, included IC-- which W has not obviously sought out) but I don't know if I would call that "putting up with BS", especially since she has gone to every session, without complaint, that I have scheduled. Has she scheduled any herself for us, or requested that I do so? No-- though she has taken the initiative on some of the homework.
At any rate, I am not going to argue that all of that is enough... BUT... a lot of that is on me for not setting clearer boundaries and requirements and for making it too easier for her to come back.
Her sleeping apart on a few nights, and saying in session that she is having a hard time envisioning a fully intimate relationship with me? Seems more honesty (painful, yes, but honest) than disrespect.
Failure to put back on her wedding ring? I have never brought this up (once, maybe, but very obliquely) nor established it as a "must", and, hey... I'm not wearing one either and have made no move to replace mine. Bad sign, okay, but "BS"?
The two trips out she's had where her whereabouts were arguably (and only a little arguably if you have a BIG imagination and like to spin) unaccounted-for? Easily could've been a lot of things, including just forgetting her phone.
The unaccounted for trip to her office (which I shouldn't even really know about)? Easily a short side-trip on her way to go Christmas shopping (and it was in fact on her way).
Her get-togethers with bff? No indications of any wrongdoing and I can't control who she hangs out with and, as she has noted in the past, she doesn't approve of all of my friends either. (One of whom cheated on and subsequently divorced one of her other friends--though, to be fair, I am no longer close with this dude)
My suspicions about a couple of items of jewelry? Just that. I have asked her about it and she has denied that any are from OM. I have no concrete reason to think otherwise.
The only two concrete things she has done "Wrong" have been to a) briefly go shopping next door to OM's hangout after me telling her I didn't feel comfortable about her going there just prior to Christmas--though she did not hide it and in fact told me she had gone and b) tell me a couple of lies, one which she may not even have realized, about her past with OM-- one was a couple of weeks ago when she said her bff's AP (a mutual friend) did NOT know about her A with OM (when I know for a fact the opposite is true) and the other was, back in the summer before SHTF she told me a pic on her FB page of flowers were NOT from OM, but just recently she confirmed they were. Of course, by confirming they were she also confirmed she kept the pic up for nearly an entire month after SHTF.
Anyway, in a nutshell: No, she is not doing what I need for her to do in order for me to a) feel safe in the MR and b) feel like she is committed to the process of counseling and reconciliation. But I have a really hard time working myself up into an angry, self-righteous lather because "I have been putting up with constant BS". It's simply not the case. Thankfully, though, it doesn't have to be in order for me to take a stand.
it does NOT matter if she thinks she is doing enough... of course she thinks that... but she is NOT... specifically she is not in IC... specifically she is not having a physical relationship with you... there...
if you cannot get that from her, you do need to walk away... but if you cannot walk away after she tells you she is doing all that she can, then DO NOT approach her with this... DO NOT have this conversation... you will end up where you already are... and you will look even weaker...
Okay, thanks. So, you have partially answered my question and partially not.
It doesn't matter if she thinks she is "doing enough". Check. Got it.
Can I walk away if she says "I cant' give you that" or "I don't know if I can see myself giving you that" or "I can't do anymore?" Yes, actually, I think that I can. I actually did walk away once before, you know. Let her back in too easily later, of course, but I did walk. I feel even more capable of doing so now.
But what if she says "well what more do you want me to do?" Is it enough for me to say "This is not enough... you need to prove yourself to me and I don't think you have done so"? Or, should I be proactive and lay down specifics? The IC is an easy one-- MC has basically said this is a must (and, TBH, W has agreed with this assessment, both in session and, even more explicitly, out of session when talking with me), so I have no problem telling her "I need you to do what our professional counselor is telling us to do... if you can't do that, then I can't continue", as is the physical intimacy: "We're working towards a fully intimate marriage... or not at all"
But what about other issues? Her bff and that relationship? Her failure to come clean on some stuff-- some of pertinent, at least to me-- about her A with OM? The wedding ring issue? Her continuing occasional and somewhat disconcerting talk which basically amounts to feeling a "need to rebel"-- which comes out every now and then in her actions, most notably when she went shopping next door to OM's sometimes hangout even after I told her I didn't think she should. All of these fall within the category of "things that make me question her commitment to rebuilding trust and rebuilding the MR"... but are they things I broach with her
if she seems/sounds legitimately interested or do I leave it at:
"I'm not getting enough, I need a full commitment from you and that has to include IC as recommended by the MC and a commitment that we are working on FULLY restoring the MR-- sex and all."
It's not that I am questioning my willingness to walk away, it is that I am questioning my approach, and how much down into the weeds I should be willing to go if she asks (which she is fairly likely to do): "Well, what do you want." Like I said, she is very adept at engaging in conversation, and I myself am a verbal person and very easily drawn into long conversations (which, in general, I agree with Sandi would be better to avoid.)
But what if she asks...
Jim, stop being a lawyer for a second! You are very much complicating things.
You want to get out of the friend zone. very simple. You want a romantic intimate relationship. Is doesn't matter how she perceives it. You know you aren't getting it. She could spin things all over the place. Doesn't matter. You are going to have to walk away if she is not going to restore that. And she needs to go to IC to restore it. There. That's it.
You have repeated NUMEROUS times how she is behaving. We get it. Is "behaving" enough?
The one odd office trip she made, or shopping next door to OM, that isn't your issue here.
One step at a time. What is your number one issue? That's what you address. Nothing else. Because you both have this ability to have these very wordy relationship conversations that just go in circles. You want intimacy restored? Is that your number one issue. You tell her in a very succinct matter. And if you can't get a succinct answer that is clear, then you need to be ready to walk away.
Jim,
I am trying to help you because I lived it for 2 years and my W was having sex with me. I could tell her heart wasn't in it. I also blamed myself for how we got into the position that we were in our M.
But you know what I realized. M is about fuching forgiveness and we both were to blame for how we got there. Instead of living two years in fuching limbo thinking this was just a phase I should have nutted up and said something along the lines of "I know I made a lot of mistakes in our marriage. I love you and I adore you but we are either going to both get into individual counseling and marriage counseling and work on this together or I am not going to do this anymore". Then if I didn't get the answer I was looking for walk and never looked back. (I didn't have the knowledge I have now)
What would have changed? Maybe nothing I am almost divorced. I just know it would have saved me at least 1 year of soul sucking limbo and I could have moved on earlier.(We are not getting any younger lol!) I was trying to hang onto someone who didn't want to be with me. Never again!
You're a good man who made mistakes. We are all human.
The number one thing I have learned is that when someone changes the terms of the relationship you are in and you are not agreement with these terms you lovely communicate that these terms are unacceptable to you and if they aren't willing to agree to your terms you walk and you never look back. I communicates that you love and value yourself and if they don't someone else will.
Don't make the same mistake I made Jim.
yes--leave out all the minutia, including the relationship with BFF... the not coming clean on stuff and the rebel talk (although i will get back to these two items later)... sleeping on the couch... etc...
your "I'm not getting enough..." statement is good... you can try to leave it at that... of course, she will respond... you can let her have her say, and still stick with your statement that you are not getting enough... you can tell her, if you must, that her not coming clean on stuff and the rebel talk indicate to you that she is not fully committed to the relationship... if you want to keep it short, just mention the rebel talk... and leave it at that... be warm, loving... because you do love her... but because you love her, you cannot go on living like friends, roommates...
i want to reiterate, my H and i were legally separated for 2.5 years... and physically separated for a good 6 months before we were legally separated... we lived a part... we lived separate lives... we had interactions from time to time because we do have 2 sons... and his father passed away during that time, and my father had a major life-threatening surgery during that time... i went through a lot before i was able to come back to him... he went through a lot to get to a healthy place.. i had some IC during our time a part... so did he... when i approached him about reconciliation, his first requirement was that i set up IC for myself immediately... secondly, i had to commit to MC... i set that up for us, immediately... we had ups and downs during MC... sometimes we would come away hurt, angry, annoyed... i guess i am saying this again so you know that it may take your living apart to get your marriage back... and then if and when it happens, you will still experience growing pains...
adelante--
--artista
Ginger, LH, artista-- really good clarifications and insights, really well said. I very much appreciate all the time and thoughts and "white light" y'all are sending my way. And I agree to a large extent, i just need to think and pray on it over the next couple of days, and make sure I have thought out all of the possibilities and know for certain how I will handle things... And this will also allow my son to get off to school without me tossing a hand grenade into the middle of the household before he leaves.
We'll see what the next couple of days bring, but looks like I am headed towards, umm... "bringing this to a head", so to speak.
If she tries to get off track or pull you off on another trail, do not respond to that subject. Just tell her, "We can talk about that at another time, but I want to stay focused on whether or not you can emotionally commit to being my W".
Jim, I think you need to be prepared to tell her the specifics of what you need from her. Her idea of commitment may be nothing like yours. So, don't approach her until you know what you want her to do that will show you she's committed. If at all possible, stay away from pointing out the things she has done "wrong" that make you feel insecure, b/c this is where she will try to steer the conversation into a long R discussion. I don't know if you can explain what you need without telling her those things. And BTW, this does not mean you shouldn't stress on her getting serious with the MC/IC and whatever else you need from her.
Do not approach her in any sense of self-righteousness. That is a big no-no, IMHO. Don't try to work yourself up to be angry. Although you may feel fed up with things, that doesn't mean you
have to show it overtly. Some men
do show their WW they are fed up with how things are going, but you don't have to.
Just talk calmly, and stay focused on keeping the conversation on the main topic.
If you told her you needed her to be your W in every sense of the word, don't you think she would know what you mean......or would she play dumb and ask for a breakdown of the meaning?
You previously spoke about timing, and I believe it makes a huge difference when the timing is right. We seldom have control, b/c we simply don't know if the timing is good or bad. However, when it comes to approaching your WW, I think there are some signs that will give you clues about the right timing. I strongly suggest not approaching her late at night. People are exhausted from the stress of their job and whatever they've dealt with at home, etc. They are not likely to respond favorably. Choose a time when she is relaxed and seems to be in a pleasant mood. Her attitude tells you a lot, if you'll observe. Don't choose a time when both of you have had a rough day with S17, or if S19 has new problems to arise. These are the things to avoid, b/c they cause stress for both of you. It would not be a good time to talk to her about you needing more from her. Know what I mean? In other words, don't set a specific day on the calendar to have the talk. I've seen men do this and they are so focused on having the talk on that date, that they are like, "have the talk or bust", and they don't observe the other things that are telling him it's not a good time. You won't know until it comes, but when it does.....that's the time to approach her. Or.....you can ignore what I've said about timing and just hit her with it whenever and have a ef'it all attitude. That's your decision.
I lived a lot of your life, jim. I feel for you. It was always going to end up here, though, for both of us.
You and I both married the same personality type ((unhappy) enneagram 4s), and neither one of us has the personality type to truly drop the rope while living in close physical proximity to our spouse, still actively parenting together, trying to keep up appearances to outsiders, etc. We throw ourselves into the work of self-improvement, DB our asses off, start to feel really great changes happening inside us, and then we temp check (whether we know we're doing it or not) because we want so desperately to see if we're making progress. But she knows and feels this temp checking, and she then constantly checks inside herself to see if she's again attracted to you, quickly determines she's still not (in part because you're pursuing her with the temp checking, and in part because she thinks it can only come back with a return to limerance-type feelings and, in any event, isn't willing to do any work on herself to understand her unhealthy relationship with her own feelings), and down you go, again. You redouble your efforts, you plot and plan, you post tortured posts on message boards, you seek any and all advice you can get, you follow it diligently, and you hope and you worry and you stress, and you wonder what if I do this, or that . . . and the gulf just grows or, at best, remains stuck where it is, because it's all pursuit when it gets into this dynamic, she gets more and more entrenched in her belief that nothing will ever change inside her, and this goes on and on and on and on.
DBing is a wonderful self-help tool, and it can improve the chances for reconciliation if practiced religiously and consistently AND the two people in question have the right personality types and things go how they need to go in terms of your living situation. It almost never works if you stay together in the same home, though. All that that proximity and co-parenting and economic partnership (devoid of intimacy) does is reinforce again and again the drift that's occurred in your relationship, until, in her mind, it just is, and it's insurmountable and not possible for it to be anything but whatever it is.
Eventually (and you're not there yet), you will throw off the belief that this is all your fault or even more yours than hers. At this point, it's almost entirely hers, for what it's worth. It's not worth much relationship-wise, but the self-realization of it is of immense value for where you're ultimately going on your journey.
As a now very happily divorced man, I can tell you that you need to physically separate if you want to R. But be prepared to not want to R once you do. You really won't believe how nice it is to live a life where you are not being told in words, deeds, sighs or via sexual shutdown/disinterest that you're not good enough, that you don't give her "that spark", that hers is a life regretted, that's it's devoid of excitement for her . . .
There is an immense weight on your shoulders that's been there so long you don't even think you feel it anymore.
Your first really powerful realization upon separating (after some initial sorrow) will be that life alone, even if it's forever (which it won't be, if you don't want that), is way better than what you had. You will have space to complete the work you've started on yourself, and you will have the time and energy to really get serious about mapping out, then implementing, how you become the man you want to be over the next 3-4 decades. And then the other women will come calling. Then you'll know for sure.
Think about this, because it's true: there are literally MILLIONS of women on this planet, right now, who'd LOVE to get with a man who's spent a full year working his ass off to become more self-aware and a better person, who has a job (much less a good one) and who is joyful and happy and kind and wants to have fun and have adventures. That is living. What you have been doing, what I did for years -- that is NOT living. It's dying.
Your job at that point will be not to backslide or ever again accept a relationship that isn't a two-way street, but that's putting the ox before the cart. Just know that your 2018 will be much better than your 2017, and your 2019 likely even better than that.
Think about this, because it's true: there are literally MILLIONS of women on this planet, right now, who'd LOVE to get with a man who's spent a full year working his ass off to become more self-aware and a better person, who has a job (much less a good one) and who is joyful and happy and kind and wants to have fun and have adventures. That is living. What you have been doing, what I did for years -- that is NOT living. It's dying.
Your job at that point will be not to backslide or ever again accept a relationship that isn't a two-way street, but that's putting the ox before the cart. Just know that your 2018 will be much better than your 2017, and your 2019 likely even better than that.
JRUSS,
This is the best fuching post I have read on here in the last year. I love the last two paragraphs. I say it all the time "never again will I try to convince someone to be with me".
I am glad you are doing great! I am right behind you and should be divorced soon. I can't wait to see what life has in store for me in the future.
Take care and keep paying it forward!
hoosjim,
I agree with what LH19 said about what JRuss said.
Also, I have a question that I've been dying to ask for awhile: Who's Jim? Or maybe a better question is, is the "hoos" at the beginning of your username supposed to imply "who's"?
As a now very happily divorced man, I can tell you that you need to physically separate if you want to R. But be prepared to not want to R once you do. You really won't believe how nice it is to live a life where you are not being told in words, deeds, sighs or via sexual shutdown/disinterest that you're not good enough, that you don't give her "that spark", that hers is a life regretted, that's it's devoid of excitement for her . . .
There is an immense weight on your shoulders that's been there so long you don't even think you feel it anymore.
I definitely agree with this. I say it fairly often but I'm convinced most broken marriages don't recon not because of the WAS, but because of the LBS. Once the LBS separates, detaches, goes through the grieving process and comes out of the fog (remembering that the M wasn't that great after all) then often they are DONE with the WAS. And of course it's not until after that entire process is complete that the WAS emerges from the fog too and sometimes (often?) decides they want to attempt recon. Just imagine going through all this pain and misery and finally recovering from it and building a whole new "you" ready to take on the world and suddenly your WAS says "hey let's get back together." Of course just about any LBS is going to say "what, and expose myself to the chance that I will have to suffer that all over again????" It's just not worth it to most LBS's. And like in my case, I would have given anything to keep my family together but now my D's are grown and moved out, my S is in high school and won't be in the "nest" for much longer, I'm 100% independent now and have a super hot, sexy, young GF. If my XW said she was ready to recon, why would I even want to other than maybe nostalgia for my old family life, but with the kids being grown that doesn't even exist anymore, at least not in that "full house" sense.
Your first really powerful realization upon separating (after some initial sorrow) will be that life alone, even if it's forever (which it won't be, if you don't want that), is way better than what you had. You will have space to complete the work you've started on yourself, and you will have the time and energy to really get serious about mapping out, then implementing, how you become the man you want to be over the next 3-4 decades. And then the other women will come calling. Then you'll know for sure.
Also completely agree with this.It's really hard to imagine when you're in the throes of BD, S and D, but life after all of that is not just surviving, but thriving. You emerge with a new perspective on life, a new appreciation for the small pleasures, and a realization that if you can survive this, well there's not much you can't do!
I saw a change in Another Stander's writings, after his D. However, JRuss has been like going from night to day! All of his posts I have read since his D, have been the same quality we've seen on this thread. I think men, especially those very nice-guys, who go through a D, are most helpful to newcomers. Many newcomers want to hear from those who saved their M's. But IMHO, these nice guys who are M to the type woman JRuss described......have priceless words of advice, if people will listen.
Yah, the lack of 'success' posters can be disheartening, but it seems like the success story posters disappear after Recon. I'm grateful that there are a few still on the board!
Hearing from people who've been through the wringer and come out the other side a better person is very valuable, though. It gives us all something to shoot for even while hoping for Recon. And it helps temper the "OMG, SAVE THIS IMMEDIATELY!" impulses that are so hard for us who are early in the process. I constantly still imagine the movie/storybook/etc ending where I say something, or some little thing happens, and W immediately falls back into my arms. It's brutal facing the reality. I'm glad I found this site.
JRUSS...I really enjoyed reading your post and I read through your sitch when I first joined. I remember seeing a lot of similiarites between my W and your EX.
As I process my own emotions and get stronger.....I keep coming back to the question of what will it feel like when you are done and ready to initiate D and move on yourself? People say you will just know but what feelings or lack of should I expect to have?
I constantly still imagine the movie/storybook/etc ending where I say something, or some little thing happens, and W immediately falls back into my arms.
Sub,
You see the problem is that BS only happens in the movies. The ones where the guy pursues and purses and purses and the woman realizes all along she was madly in love with him and falls into his arms. In real life women see him as a creepy stalker.
Same with sitcoms like the King of Queens with the hot wife and the dopey fat husband who sits around all day eating chicken wings but they are madly in love. In real life the hot W has OM 1 2 & 3.
Yep. Storybook/sitcom/movie this ain't. Hard work is what will help.
There is no path back together for us that involves separation. Separation means she defaults to her support system-- bff. Which means, also, OM. I will not take her back, ever or under any circumstances, if she goes back to him in any way, shape, or form. She'd be tainted goods in my eyes. And, even if she didn't, were we separated and apart for any amount of time under the circumstances, I don't know that I could trust that she hadn't... which brings me back to "I will not take her back."
Maybe it's a million to one shot if we stay together, in house... idunno. There certainly seem to be a lot of counselors, gurus, and whatnot out there however who seem to think marriages can be restored without separation so... either they or you guys gotta be wrong. Whatever. All I know is that when we have this conversation, if she does not commit and I or she "walks"... we're done. And that is why I need to make sure I have fully thought/prayed/considered the matter, and am ready to pull the plug if need be. I am pretty confident that I am... but, like I said, my take is that that means we are done for good.
There is no path back together for us that involves separation. Separation means she defaults to her support system-- bff. Which means, also, OM. I will not take her back, ever or under any circumstances, if she goes back to him in any way, shape, or form. She'd be tainted goods in my eyes. And, even if she didn't, were we separated and apart for any amount of time under the circumstances, I don't know that I could trust that she hadn't... which brings me back to "I will not take her back."
hoosjim,
In my opinion, until you're willing to let go, you're never going to get her back. You're fighting the current and you're just going to exhaust yourself.
There certainly seem to be a lot of counselors, gurus, and whatnot out there however who seem to think marriages can be restored without separation so... either they or you guys gotta be wrong.
I understand that you would take their advice over ours.
Based on the above statement we need more information. Are the "gurus" talking about both people being committed to the marriage or just one?
I will again repeat what my MC said "if two people come in committed to the M that D is not an option she has a 99.9% of restoring a healthy marriage. If two people come in and neither or only 1 are committed she has roughly a 0% chance of restoring the marriage"
There is no path back together for us that involves separation. Separation means she defaults to her support system-- bff. Which means, also, OM.
well, that is a shame... throwing out, perhaps the one thing that might save your marriage... separation means separation... you live your life, she lives hers... you want to control everything... you want to, somehow, keep it all together... keep her from betraying you... she already has... and you didn't walk...
what will you do differently in your in-house separation? if you don't have that plan of action, do not bother having the conversation, because you have already tried "living your life without her" while living together... and you are not good at it for long... you hang on every word, every action, every nuance... you cannot detach...
she will play you, string you along... feed you bread crumbs, and even lead you on... i don't see your situation changing should she not fully commit, and you continue to live together...
my two cents: you are not ready to approach her with your wants, needs, expectations...
--artista
HJ....it certainly is a personal decision however I have no regrets that my W and I separated. IMO if she had stayed in the house for 3 additional months like she originally planned our R would have further eroded. It also would have delayed our journey by 3 months as well.
I have no proof of OM but I would be stupid to think she has had no interaction with the opposite sex. My W has enablers as well, she is a teacher, and has surrounded herself with teacher friends of hers that are in their mid 40's and D as well. In fact her and "her crew" as she refers to them are going out of town for a girls weekend this weekend. Live it up party I say! My theory is the more she does it and has the opportunity to make choices maybe it will reduce our time a part.
I am living my life, doing things that I enjoy and am secure with myself as a husband and father. I am a good man. Me and my 8 yr old even baked cookies yesterday
My advice, FWIW, is look deep inside yourself and determine how much of your ego is prohibiting you from truely opening the cage door, DTR and setting your W free. IMO if you want to save your MR you are going to need to let your W go.
Take care.
I concur with Doodler, you really need to let go. You are trying so hard to get her to "behave" in a way that you want. If she deices that she wants to go to OM if you separate and let her go, well, then she wasn't meant to stay. You can't "keep" her from making those choices. If she is truly committed to the M, she will decide to work on herself, and not go back to OM.
I learned something huge in subsequent R's after my M. I tried so hard in my M to keep him there. The whole R, the whole M, I had to do all the heavy lifting. And he left for OW. he made his choice. My R with him was only 9 years, not as long term as you, but either way, I was fully committed, especially since we just had a baby. But the biggest lesson I learned is that if I have they would run into someone elses arms? well, then they weren't to go out of my way to "keep" someone here because if I didn't meant to be here. I want someone to choose "me" and "us". Otherwise, my attitude now is "don't let the door hit you in the arse"
There are some who don't understand why I don't have a problem with jealousy in my relationships after my ex cheated. I have no problems with a boyfriend going out with the guys, or even going out with their friends who are girls. Because if they choose them, well, they aren't for me. My partner needs to be able to choose me, else I don't want them.
She needs to choose you. Without rules, or keeping her in "tight reins". She needs to freely chose YOU
Sorry that is kind of difficult to understand because I am trying to type on the DL at work, and I keep minimizing every time someone walks past my desk. But I think you get the jist.
Ginger:
That made perfect sense to me. I hope Jim takes it to heart.
There certainly seem to be a lot of counselors, gurus, and whatnot out there however who seem to think marriages can be restored without separation so... either they or you guys gotta be wrong. Whatever.
you are a lawyer... words matter... this here is an informal logical fallacy called a false dilemma...
it's not one or the other... one or the other group has gotta be wrong... and not whatever... all the power in the world to you, hoosjim... i do hope you prove the gurus right in your case... you, PsySara, Tate, GW5263, CW2017 are pretty much in the same boat, and all of you are handling your sitches in a similar fashion... i would love it if you all prove us wrong and the gurus right... if it comes down to it, may an in-house separation work for all of you...
in the words of our good friend Bryan Adams, this is comin' straight from the heart...
--artista
Maybe it's a million to one shot if we stay together, in house... idunno. There certainly seem to be a lot of counselors, gurus, and whatnot out there however who seem to think marriages can be restored without separation so... either they or you guys gotta be wrong.
They are more likely to get paid for their services, if you continue things as they are. We don't get paid.
IMHO, if you are not emotionally and physically intimate in the MR, and live under the same roof......you are already in-house S. How many years have you been living this way with your W? I think it will be a huge mistake to tell her you are officially in-house S. There will be no more MC, or her seeing an IC. In-house S will be her hall pass to really live like GGW, and if you complain, she'll quickly remind you of the hall pass. She'll probably do it if you physically separate, but living under the same roof is like rubbing your nose in it. IMHO, it is so much more degrading. At least, by physically separating, you are showing that you will not live with her while she disrespects you publicly.
I just wished you would get this idea of physical S as the end. And it angers me to hear you or any man refer to his W as "tainted goods". What difference does it make if you are in the house or out of the house when she turns to the OM? You were under the same roof when she cheated the first time, and you didn't think she was so tainted you had to leave, did you? In fact, you are anxious to have sex with her. That makes no sense to me!
The reason I have purposed physical separation as being the last resort to saving this M, is b/ you've tried MC and had a start (maybe a false start) to reconciliation. Maybe her initial intention was to reconcile, but if so, I think she faltered and is resistant to follow through with the things she needs to address.
She's had the BBF whispering in her ear, and her patient H standing by, and perhaps the OM waiting in the wings (IDK). She has had it easy. She's not really suffered any consequences, has she? With you not living under the same roof, or being there to support her emotionally/financially/physically.....would it pull her out of this mindset? There is no guarantee that anything will succeed in reconciling the MR. Just b/c you are under the same roof, means nothing as far as reconciling from in-house separation. I've never seen one succeed. I don't count TxHubby's sitch as in-house S. To my knowledge he never said they were in-house S. They lived like you and your W are currently living. He hoped she would eventually come around, but she didn't. Most of his previous posts were about exposing the affair. However, he was not the one who exposed his own W's affair. It was the OM's W, and TxHubby's W was
dumped by her OM. TxHubby eventually became an emotional WAH when he got so fed up that he was walking out the door. That is what brought his WW to her senses. It sure as heck wasn't an in-house separation! Please understand, I am not knocking TxHubby. I wish he'd taken his last step, first, and it would saved him from a lot of anxiety. I just want you to know it was not an in-house S that brought the reconciliation to that MR.
I know you have been extremely hesitant in physically separating, and have used the kids and S17's condition for reasons to not S. I am not unemphatic about it. However, I know that if you were D.....life would go on, and S17 and S19 would be okay. One is in college and the other one will be in a few months. Then what? I think you need to look at Hoosjim for the true reason you fear separating from her. If you can't see S as a last resort to saving your MR, then stop talking about separation altogether, and/or approaching her about commitment, and just continue to live with her. Without some type of action from you, you are wasting your breath with another R talk.
My point of physical separation is to give your W time without you in her life. Give her the space and freedom to do whatever she thinks will bring her happiness. When she discovers it doesn't work like the Christmas movies portray, and she realizes she still loves and wants her H......then she will be serious about really working on the M, instead of throwing breadcrumbs. She's not afraid to lose you, anymore than I was afraid of losing my H.
The physical separation is not all about her. It's about you, as well. You need to GAL without her.
The major turning point from wanting to believe she was trying to reconcile, was when I found out she had never put on her wedding ring. And frankly, Jim, you saying that you don't wear yours either, b/c you lost it......is one of the biggest self denials I have heard in a long time. You
lost your ring. It was not your personal choice to not wear it. She didn't lose her ring.
She chooses not to wear it!! That is a big red flag, IMHO. So, get real here. The minute she told you whatever she told you to make you believe the MR was reconciling.....was the minute she should have put that ring on her finger. And you should have insisted, if she didn't. The fact you just let it ride.......makes me wonder if you have been in denial all the way through this. Even others have commented on how you make excuses for her. I know love is blind, but you are smarter than this. Stop finding excuses and covering for her.
Finally, I have to ask again why you see a physical separation as the end of the M, instead of the LRT. And, why is your self righteousness kicking in at the thought of her seeing the OM
after you separate, when you are willing to accept the possibility while
currently living with her? I can nearly promise you she's going to try her wings, unless she is totally devastated over the separation.
She would be tainted goods?!? That's bull cr@p!
Sandi, I like and respect you, but it is absolutely and 100% not bull crap. An emotional affair, they came very close to a physical affair, with one of my very best friends. I've never had anything more hurtful and flicked it on me or seen inflicted on someone I care about. If we were to separate now, I have no qualms about the idea of as you say letting her go free. Everyone here with eyes open. But I have made no secret of the fact, and I have told her, that if she chooses any sort of relationship with om in the future, then she will have nothing for me, not even friendship. I have been very clear about this. If she is willing to commit now, I have forgiven her for the past. If she can't commit now, that I can walk away. All I am saying, is that I don't know if I could ever trust that she did not go to om, whether or not she actually didn't. Now, I guess anything's possible and perhaps I can be convinced if she came to her senses down the road after a separation, I just sincerely doubt it.
I may know nothing but I can give some wise words from people who I think know something:
"You only lose what you cling to" Buddha
"Sometimes you have to move on without certain people. If they're meant to be in your life, they'll catch up." Mandy Hale
"If you love something so much, let it go. If it comes back it was meant to be. If not it wasn't." Albert Schweitzer
Just let go.
You can trust if she did or did not go to OM in the same house or separated. If she wants it, she will find a way to do it. Being in the same house has nothing to do with it. Her level of commitment to you is what will decide if she does or not.
An emotional affair, they came very close to a physical affair, with one of my very best friends. I've never had anything more hurtful and flicked it on me or seen inflicted on someone I care about. If we were to separate now, I have no qualms about the idea of as you say letting her go free. Everyone here with eyes open. But I have made no secret of the fact, and I have told her, that if she chooses any sort of relationship with om in the future, then she will have nothing for me, not even friendship. I have been very clear about this. If she is willing to commit now, I have forgiven her for the past. If she can't commit now, that I can walk away. All I am saying, is that I don't know if I could ever trust that she did not go to om, whether or not she actually didn't.
Okay, I get it. I've calmed down. You hit a nerve and I over reacted. I apologize for calling it bull cr@p. I agree and respect you for all you've said in the quote above. If you told her if she ever had anymore to do with the OM the M would be over......then stick to your boundary. Stop sounding as if you are making all these excuses.....and just remind us of the boundary you set.
I'll admit I let your words of "tainted goods" distract me from your boundary, but I was thinking you had told her you would leave, if she ever saw the OM again.
I think your boundary has limited the hope that a physical separation will work toward saving the M. But, you certainly can't tell her it's fine to date......unless you let her know you will be dating as well (which is always risky, IMHO). However, the fact that the OM was your close friend, makes her A feel like a double betrayal.
Pete,
Those were great quotes. Thank you.
You can trust if she did or did not go to OM in the same house or separated. If she wants it, she will find a way to do it. Being in the same house has nothing to do with it. Her level of commitment to you is what will decide if she does or not.
And that, meaning her level of commitment, is exactly what I need to discern. If she is "in", great. If not, she may never have been. And I walk.
And by tainted goods I am not speaking in the crude, sexual sense. What she did to me and what I did to her is all in the open now. I have attoned, and committed to trying to work through our issues. If she is not, or if she is the kind of person who could go back to,OM, knowing how much it hurt me and us, under the same circumstances, stringing me along... then she is not the type of person I would want to be with.
I feel for you Jim. I doubt she will give you an answer. She seems to be in a holding pattern.
I mean, I think you guys are misunderstanding me. I'm not saying I can't walk because I fear that that means we can never reconcile, I am saying that I CAN walk, but that that i KNOW (or at least have convinced myself) that, if I walk, it is over for good, for the reasons I stated above. I hope because of this that she chooses the marriage, sincerely and truly, but I understand there is a good chance, perhaps even the lions share of a chance, that she wont. And I don't see us working out in that case, I just dont.
But that doesn't mean I can't and won't walk away. The idea that she might be playing me or stringing me along until she can reconnect witha OM infuriates me.I thought she had faced the wrong of what she had done and the damage it caused and could have caused. If she merely digested that...and has been stringing me along knowing she is going back to
OM? Then sh would also not be someone I would ever want to be involved with.
The Bible talks about forgiveness, which I have in my heart. But there is a big leap between forgiveness, and allowing someone access to your heart.
But, you certainly can't tell her it's fine to date......unless you let her know you will be dating as well
If we split, I would be open to her dating... and to doing likewise myself. I have been blessed with seeing interest from other women, which has helped my confidence immensely. So, she could date. I'd hope she would instead focus on herself and her own issues (and she does have issues), but she could date. But I have told her and would tell her again thst if she were to go back to OM at any point, even after a period of 'working on" or "trying to work on" the marriage, that I don't think, especially given her previous subterfuge, that id believe she'd ever given up the relationship with OM or intended to try to reconcile. I would, in short, not be able to entertain any kind of relationship with her.
And, yeah, all of that probably means that because of my boundaries a Reconciliation is less likely. But those are boundaries on which I am not ever going to budge. As I explained it to her many many many weeks ago, at the point in time where I dropped my bomb on her and walked away: "You've talked about happiness being important, but how happy do you think I would be with you carrying on a relationship of any sort with OM, a relationship that is long as it existed would be a living breathing reminder of probably the greatest pain and betrayal ever inflicted on me or anyone I care about, the Betrayal that also spelled the final death knell for our marriage, and our family, and a happy, unbroken home for our sons and for their children Candown the road. Her response was, through tears "well and now that's always
Going to be in my head too". To which I responded " don't you think it should be? Actions have consequences. Did you expect everyone just to walk away and be happy? Me, the kids, our families, under those circumstances?" And then came the tearful I'm sorry I'm sorry I'm sorry, please don't go, etc etc
Have you decided whether or not to have the talk?
Have you decided whether or not to have the talk?
Yes, I am going to. Trying to wait for good timing as opposed to just jumping on her at the first opportunity, though, as I have been wont to do in the past. It'll be an important conversation.
No opportunity this past weekend, which was all about getting S19 situated and ready to go back to school, scheduling classes, saying goodbye, etc. I drove him down late Sunday night and stayed over and didn't come back til yesterday AM. W's work is exhausting even when she isn't working 50 hour weeks like she is now, so most weekday evenings she's going to be pretty tired unless she has an early day, which does happen with increasing frequency these days. Yesterday, however, she had hair/salon appointment directly after work so wasn't home until almost 7:30, had dinner and very sleepy after that.
Was also another frustratingly enjoyable/fun and spontaneous evening out on Friday. Boys went out to meet some friends for dinner, so we went out for light dinner and maybe a drink at nearby pub that has live acoustic music. Pub pulled an audible and had a full-on band, though... a really good one, and W wanted to stay a bit, so we did. Had more drinks. Met and talked with the band and their wives-- fun group. Also met and talked with a couple sitting next to us for a while-- also a good pair. Then we were basically adopted by a Bolivian family out for one of their birthdays and we ended up staying until close. These kinds of things seem to keep happening to us... like pretty much every time we go out. Like we have some sort of weird chemistry/karma/kismet going on that leads us to have unplanned adventures.
There was also some somewhat weird sexual intimacy between us later (not ML). Progressed from a very frank and open conversation we were having about sexual likes and dislikes. Ended up with some fairly intimate touching, caressing, etc. Didn't seem "weird" in the sort of "forced" sense that "the kiss" from a few weeks back was but... idunno. It was just kind of strange. Seemed a natural and comfortable progression and there was no "pull back" or shut down by her or by me, but... we completely skipped kissing, which you'd normally think to be a natural early step through the progression there. And neither of us made the move in that direction and it didn't seem odd that we didn't... which was one of the things that made it odd. The alcohol, not a lot, but enough that we were both tipsy, probably added to the odd vibe. At any rate, it didn't "spoil" the evening like the strange kiss from a few weeks back but... at the same time it wasn't the type of thing where I was like "well, we're clearly on the right track and speeding towards reconciliation, here."
I do imagine it will come up when we talk: "Well, if we're not moving in that direction, what was Friday night all about?"
I do imagine it will come up when we talk: "Well, if we're not moving in that direction, what was Friday night all about?"
Good point. If there's one thing you have it's time. Maybe delay the convo a while and see how things progress. Remember DB'ing is all about baby steps, rarely are there big sudden moves. It's incremental progress, and it certainly sounds like you're seeing that so forcing a talk right now might make you seem impatient and pushy.
Okay, I've been thinking this for a while now. Problem is, it's just my gut, based on what you write and boils down to nothing more than mind reading. Thing is, I really do think your W is trying. I really do. Why else would she do as much with you as she has lately? What W that does not want to be with H spends the hours with you that she does? And now another baby step forward it would appear.
I don't want to try to suggest what to do here. I really don't know. That's better left to an expert like sand. All I know is from where I sit your W is more in that out. She clearly needs to be prompted forward. I would just not push too hard or give an ultimatum. I think AS is correct in this is all about baby steps. One step forawd and two back only with you it appears to be two steps forward and one back.
I'd certainly keep doing what you are doing. It certainly seems to be working.
Okay, I've been thinking this for a while now. Problem is, it's just my gut, based on what you write and boils down to nothing more than mind reading. Thing is, I really do think your W is trying. I really do. Why else would she do as much with you as she has lately? What W that does not want to be with H spends the hours with you that she does? And now another baby step forward it would appear.
I don't want to try to suggest what to do here. I really don't know. That's better left to an expert like sand. All I know is from where I sit your W is more in that out. She clearly needs to be prompted forward. I would just not push too hard or give an ultimatum. I think AS is correct in this is all about baby steps. One step forawd and two back only with you it appears to be two steps forward and one back.
I'd certainly keep doing what you are doing. It certainly seems to be working.
of course you could be right, but my formerly-a-WW-gut says no... My H and I did these kinds of things together while I was unfaithful... We regularly did karaoke, had dinner parties, even went away for the weekend... Went wine tasting, listened to local bands... It's the red flags that gnaw at my gut... I think the no kissing also says something...
I think the no kissing also says something...
I'm glad to see Artista say this about the kissing. I had started a response about that very subject, and then deleted it.
IMHO, mouth on mouth, passionate kisses.......or the lack of them, tell the real story about a woman's current feelings for that man. Some W's have sex, but don't really engage in kissing. When that happens, something is not right. She is either just wanting to hurry and get through the sex act b/c she's not into it (for various reasons); or she is holding some anger against him; or she has another guy in her head.
My question to Jim, is who initiated? If you did, why........since you were planning the talk? Was it a test?
If you have the talk, and if she says she is committed, I think you need to bring up the subject of her wedding ring. And, don't jump in about you losing your ring. This is about her commitment and why she's not wearing her ring.
If you have the talk, and if she says she is committed, I think you need to bring up the subject of her wedding ring. And, don't jump in about you losing your ring. This is about her commitment and why she's not wearing her ring.
this is one of the red flags that gnaws at me... during all of my false starts with H, i did not wear my wedding ring... it was not until i fully committed... and my H does not wear his ring... he stopped long before my unfaithfulness... the reason he stopped is that it no longer fit him... that did not bother me, and i did not require him to replace it...
but if you believe you should not require her to wear hers because you lost yours, then why haven't you replaced it? you can get a simple band for 80 bucks or less--although i do not believe money is the reason... i don't understand why you have not taken that reason/excuse out of the mix...
IMHO, mouth on mouth, passionate kisses.......or the lack of them, tell the real story about a woman's current feelings for that man. Some W's have sex, but don't really engage in kissing. When that happens, something is not right. She is either just wanting to hurry and get through the sex act b/c she's not into it (for various reasons); or she is holding some anger against him; or she has another guy in her head.
I generally agree with you and Artista, here. While the temptation is to look at things and say "oh, look how we've gotten closer" or "look how much more comfortable she is WRT certain things with me", the bottom line is that she is not focused on pursuing/fostering a romantic relationship with me. I cant think of any other reason why, in that circumstance at that level of intimacy, a woman wouldn't be kissing the man.
Yes we've gotten closer, but it is all friendship stuff. Headed, at best, towards perhaps a "friends with benefits" type thing if she decides at some point she needs a man for her own sexual fulfillment, but no real romance.
My question to Jim, is who initiated? If you did, why........since you were planning the talk? Was it a test?
Missed this first time around. Can't say that anyone really initiated it. Our conversation sort of wound round and round into many things, as it usually does, and towards the end of the evening at the pub it had turned to sex and sexuality. Not sure really how. It was not, however, like one of us just up and said during a moment of silence "Hey! Lets talk about sex!" The talk just sort of gradually moved that way, I think after having talked to and about one of the other couples there who were not married but were thinking of it. At some point the subject of pleasuring oneself came up--I think she made some joke about the movie "Wonder Woman" where the main character makes a crack about men not being necessary to achieve sexual gratification. At any rate, she asked why men seemed so hung up on porn and strip clubs and pleasuring themselves in the absence of a partner and whether or not a man would ever make a crack like that-- like "I don't need a woman I can take care of myself." At some point she talked about having become very cognizant of the, umm... configuration, I guess you would say, of her own anatomy. Now, all of this convo was happening as we were closing down and driving home and getting back into the house and then into bed, and it was becoming pretty... personal as we continued to talk while we lay with my arms around her. At some point, she fessed up to "Taking care of herself", and started talking about her "anatomical discoveries" and then said something to the effect of she thought it would be hot to have me watch. (I forget the exact words, I was pretty spooled up by this point.)
So not sure I would say either of us really "initiated".
(And hope I didn't get too R-rated for the board, here...)
Jim,
If Bones used his tricorder to analyze your marriage, what do you think Bones would say when the analysis was complete?
Oh goody, I'm going to get my chance tonight!
Call her as I was leaving work as I usually do to let her know I was on my way home: " what are things looking like over your way?" Her: " oh probably 6:30 or 6:45" (which is late for her, she's supposed to leave at 5:30, and offered no explanation this time, so I asked: " extra work to do, or are you guys staying to have a glass of wine?" ( what she does from time to time usually with the other girls in her office, but they have the wine in the office of one of the doctors there, who is married. And ask her in the past what his wife thinks about this, but, she is friends with the wife, and seems to think there is no problem with her husband hanging out after hours and drinking wine with several other girls most of whom are single. But, whatever. She has been telling me ahead of time recently when she is going to do this, but didn't today, until I asked. But then she said 6:30 or 6:45 she be leaving. It's now what 7:45? So, she was sort of hesitant in telling me to begin with, and it sounded in her voice, and now she's even an hour past that time. She did just send me a text, two words: "you okay."
I didn't respond, but no, I'm not fuching ok.
This is going to keep happening, sadly. Might be a great time to go out and do something with YOUR friends!
So, she's still there, but at least she had her GFs call me from her phone to chat/flirt with me and say "you really should come by the next time we do this". She picked up the phone for a couple of seconds, but nothing about "sorry I'm late" or "I'll be leaving in 10 mins" or the lake . I had responded to her "you hoid?" text with a prolly too-snarky-sounding "why wouldn't I be?" so guess she thought she'd need her GFs to put out the,fire.
Buy it's not even about where she is or what she's doing or who she's with, it's that, under the dynamics of our current R, she didnt seem to think it necessary to say anything about being two hours (and counting) late.
Okay... You have to get that your W is non-committal in every way she interacts with you... She said she would "probably" be until 6:15 OR 6:45... Or whatever... And knowing that it bothers you that she is still not home, she has her friends pacify you instead of coming home... I know I keep saying this but I know your wife more than any other wife on these boards...
Oh man, she didnt like that.
"I'm still here, aren't I"
"After 15 years of suffering, and of wanting that (more intimacy) and deciding I was DONE, and yet I'm still here and that's not enough to convince you?"
"Now, after just ONE year, you decide you have to have that or you won't be convinced I'm committed?"
"What more do you want me to do?"
Mentioned the ring, too:
"Well, you never made any move to get a new one when you lost yours? Why not?" (Told ya she'd say that).
Could not bring herself to say "I'm in" or "I'm committed". "Oh please, don't get so caught up on the WORDS" she said.
I left and am sleeping in the guest room tonight. I either did the right thing or just completely fuched everything up.
Of course she didn't like it... Saying "I'm still here, aren't I" is a cop out... And words do matter, and she knows it... that's why she chooses the words she does... because words do matter... She asked what more do you want... Did you say IC? You mentioned the ring... But she's not willing to wear it...
By not telling you she's fully committed, and by not asking how she could prove it to you, she has told you what you want to know. Remember, she was unfaithful... Not you. But you are the one doing all the work... She's straddling the fence... You can now GAL hard, and take it from there... Ok r you can get yourself a ring and see if she wears her ring...
She did ask, a few times, "what more I wanted from her." I told her I needed to 1) know that she was committed to this MR and to reconciling it and 2) that that meant a complete and fully intimate marriage that was the goal and 3) that that necessarily included MC and doing what the MC advised, including IC.
To all of which she said "I thought we were already doing that".
I did, as you suggested I might and in response to her asking me, tell her a couple of things that made me feel less secure in the MR such as her not being completely forthcoming on some things about her and OM, her periodic rebellious talk, and the ring.... but all of those started leading down the road of defensiveness and "explanations"
Also, FWIW that I left out, and which really made me think last night was the time to bring all this up, was that she ended up in a drive by or near drive by to OM'S hangout. Found out because she called me 10 mins from home, and then after 20 mins passed I called her to "see if she was okay" abd she told me she had "missed her exit" and gone past where she would normally turn to come home. Well, where she told me she was meant she actually missed TWO exits, which I pointed out to her, and her excuse was "well I shouldn't have been driving after three glasses of wine, and anyway I didn't drive by OM'S hangout" (the latter part of which I have no way of knowing if it's true as that would only have been a block or two out of her way the way she ultimately came home. Whatever.
This morning she approached me but was very quiet. I had a moment of weakness where i apologized for the timing last night (which WAS bad... her on two or three,drinks and close to midnight and going to bed, though she had seemed in good mood at that point) but emphasized that the things I said I needed from her were absolute musts I'd we were to continue. She sort of closed her eyes and nodded her head and said she would call me later.
This really really feels yucky and wrong, and I pray to God I am doing the right thing here and, if not,that he will help bail me out from my ineptitude...
What feels yucky and wrong? Her reactions or your feelings?
You said you "either I did the right thing" or I "really fuched up" I hope you are not determining which is which based on the outcome. The point is you expressing your feelings and being clear with what you need out of the M. Which is full commitment to restoring the M. Nothing wishy washy. You may not get the result you want, but that does not determine whether or not you did the right thing.
Have you asked her what SHE wants out of the M? What a healthy reconciled M looks like to HER? What SHE needs in the M? That would definitely give you a good picture to see if you guys are on the same wavelength. ANd it would also be good to show her you are concerned about her needs in the M. Because they do matter. I really believe asking this question will tell you if she is just doing the minimum to appease you and say she tried, or if she truly wants a restored healthy marriage.
Have you asked her what SHE wants out of the M? What a healthy reconciled M looks like to HER? What SHE needs in the M? That would definitely give you a good picture to see if you guys are on the same wavelength. ANd it would also be good to show her you are concerned about her needs in the M. Because they do matter. I really believe asking this question will tell you if she is just doing the minimum to appease you and say she tried, or if she truly wants a restored healthy marriage.
Well, i think you really hit on part of it there. Certainly, i thought (or had allowed myself to believe, whichever) that we were "working on the MR". Maybe she even thought we were too, IDK. But then what I said last night is kind of big paradigm shift, even a BD, if that is the case. Going from a collaborative effort (humor me here) to: "This is definitely not working, i don't trust you, i don't feel safe in the MR, i don't feel like you are committed to this and Oh BTW I need sex right now" (And that latter part about the sex is how i am pretty sure she took what i said or at least she said that's how she was taking it and that it bothered her after 15 years of me not wanting that and then all of a sudden "I need that.") Because i didn't discuss any of that with her, thinking i needed to be firm with what i needed and not get sidetracked. At the same time, that feels like its pulling the rug out from under her (assuming she was really working on things). Maybe in her own mind she is, IDK, but i definitely think, given the number of "wrong turns" and "missed exits" she's had over the past couple of months that have put her out on the West side of town near OMs hangout, that that relationship is still pulling at her, and also that she does have some hang ups that are keeping her from being fully committed to being intimate with me.
so that is part of it, but not sure i wanted to go into "What she wants/needs" last night. Maybe I should have.
The other part is probably just the missing her. Our relationship had gotten to the point where it was nice. I enjoy her company. She's fun, and pretty, and warm. And our family had felt like a family again for the past three months. There was always, of course, the hurt in the background of not having her constantly "in my arms", but I'll miss the rest. And her.
My other question for all is: Now that I have dropped this bomb, how should i be acting around her, demeanor-wise. I didn't feel like last night was staged or affected or faked in any way-- i really was bothered and hurt that she didnt or couldnt say those words "Im committed" even as she tried to imply that she was, and I really felt like i didn't want to "be" with her in the MBR.
Now, i find myself wanting to talk with her again, but i also feel like i need to let her make the next move, if there is to be a next move in that regard. I figure if nothing is forthcoming, it will be incumbent upon me to move out (I cant picture her doing so and, unlike at the end of last summer, i don't really have any grounds at this point to insist that she leave.) She has called me once today but i did not take the call...
I wrote a whole post and it disappeared.
Anyways, I think the conversation on what she wants/needs and sees for the future is kind of imperative. If you both have different visions and different paths, that will most likely guide you on your next steps.
Jim....IMO I think you are going to have to. The catalyst that got my W really admitting to me how she felt was a very similar situation that happened to you last night. She was supposed to be home at a certain time, ended up coming home 3 hours late and we got into a conversation when she was tipsy. That conversation was her basically being honest with me, telling me the only reason why she stuck around for the past several weeks was to make me feel better to give me the impression that we tried. She told me she was selfish, knew she was being selfish but basically didn't give a $hit.
IMO you are going to need to have the conversation, I real honest conversation.
You are doing it again... Explaining away things on her behalf... She really doesn't need to bother defending herself because you do it for her... Well, here you are and here you will be because when the rubber hits the road, this "friendship" marriage is what you will settle for. Did you ever see the movie CLIFFHANGER" with Sylvester Stallone? There is a scene where Sylvester Stallone is trying to rescue his friend's gf, but she won't let go to give him her hand... She's too scared. She falls to her death.
Until you let go of your friendship marriage, you will not have what you really want in a marriage. She feels she is doing ENOUGH, and you told her no, and she doesn't seem willing to do more... The ball is in your court...
I am not at surprised at her response to you... And I am not surprised at your reaction. You were not ready to have this conversation... I believe a few of us told you that.
Adelante...
Further thought Re:
What she wants... [and] needs in a marriage
We have gone through this exercise before, actually, with the help of the MC. We actually both want pretty much the same things in a MR... including the intimacy. But that doesn't mean she wants that with ME. I thought that was the whole point of getting her to say she was committed. (?) What good does it do to discuss what she wants (which i pretty much know already anyway) if she doesn't want it with me?
You are doing it again... Explaining away things on her behalf... She really doesn't need to bother defending herself because you do it for her...
Oh good grief sometimes you people have worse "tunnel vision" than my buddy who's married to my W's bff. I can't post anything even remotely about W sometimes without someone jumping up like Perry Mason and pointing at me with "a-HA! There you go defending her again!!""
Did you miss the part where Ginger asked why i felt like i felt? Did you miss the latter, and most important part of my post, the conclusion:
but i definitely think, given the number of "wrong turns" and "missed exits" she's had over the past couple of months that have put her out on the West side of town near OMs hangout, that that relationship is still pulling at her, and also that she does have some hang ups that are keeping her from being fully committed to being intimate with me.
...where i SAY i "definitely think" that she is not fully committed?
I'm just not going to say W's name around here at all anymore unless it's to say what 'ho she is or something. Yeesh.
This REALLY frustrates me.
And I am not surprised at your reaction.
And are you really saying i should NOT be upset/sad/whatever that my W does not want to commit to having a fully intimate marriage with me? Sorry, I ain't Spock, nor will i ever be. I regard a split as basically the end for us, and i explained this pretty well before on this forum, after a couple of failed attempts (Sandi, at least, seemed to get it.)
Don't know why i shouldn't be allowed to mourn and have my sadness over it. If i choose to be sad over it, i think that's being pretty honest. I for one am not afraid of my emotions.
HJ,
What about a separation where ground rules are outlined?
Further thought Re:
What she wants... [and] needs in a marriage
We have gone through this exercise before, actually, with the help of the MC. We actually both want pretty much the same things in a MR... including the intimacy. But that doesn't mean she wants that with ME. I thought that was the whole point of getting her to say she was committed. (?) What good does it do to discuss what she wants (which i pretty much know already anyway) if she doesn't want it with me?
What she wants with YOU! Not just in a Marriage. What she wants to achieve with YOU, her husband! Not with some other guy or in her imaginary fantasy.
I seriously think this is a worthwhile discussion.
I regard a split as basically the end for us, and i explained this pretty well before on this forum, after a couple of failed attempts (Sandi, at least, seemed to get it.)
Why Jim? Why do you have to decide right now a decision you might get to make in the future? You do not know how you will feel in the future, if you separate and DB yourself, you will feel much different than you do right now.
You have two ex-WW telling you that if you want a real marriage, you are likely going to need to separate, each find yourselves and then decide if you want to find each other again later.
So by you making the decision that you will never go back to her, you are basically changing your options to leave her forever or accept a friendship marriage. Neither of those are good choices to make right now.
This really really feels yucky and wrong, and I pray to God I am doing the right thing here and, if not,that he will help bail me out from my ineptitude...
She’s not been giving you the M you want to be in, is not accepting that wrong?
My other question for all is: Now that I have dropped this bomb, how should i be acting around her, demeanor-wise.
If you’re deciding not to accept a friendship marriage, then don’t act, but start moving on.
I can see I am not helpful to you... I respectfully bow out... Buena suerte in all you do in life... I mean that...
Adelante...
--artista
I can see I am not helpful to yo
Actually, artista, you have been tremendously helpful... but that one "issue" is one that is simply not going to resonate with me. Not anymore at least. I can obviously see the utility in
not making up excuses for the baf behavior of a WW, or of not giving a WW a pass on such behavior. Good. Fine. Understood. But for me to say part of me feels sad about a conversation and then, when asked "why", for me to cast around and say "in some respects things were working, were nice, and
maybe, just maybe (further caveats with "IDK"), my W
thought that what she was doing constituted "commitment" but that, in the end it DID NOT MATTER because it
wasnt commitment in
my eyes or even objectively...just plain out flat is
not excusing or excuse-making...under any reasonable definition I can think of. Nor can "helping" me to
not type out something like the above have, as near as I can discern, any measurable affect on either my own happiness or my MR's chances at success.
I sm mo einstein but in some select arenas i have been blessed with brilliance. Same as my son who is following the path that i perhaps should have taken to engineering: I see connections. And pilossibilities. In things, devices, people, words... And while i can choose how i process that info to a certain extent, I cannot turn off those synapsed. Nor would I want to.
When someone asks me why I feel a certain way, I will tell them, and, if the explanation involves a possibility I have seen, perhaps even an unlikely one or one with which I don't agree, I will often offer that up as well. INHO, I am fully capable of doing that without swooning at my WW's feet and buying all that she says hook line and sinker.
So, in sum: I very much appreciate your help and insight, and you are always welcome on my thread and I would be honored and continually happy to haverify you here and contributing. Just please understand that, in a lot of cases recently the "stop excusing your WW" pleas/accusations have not resonated with me and are unlikely to do so unless the case is much more obvious.
and
That it frustrates me because I feel like people are bias that way when reading my threads due to my past reputation.
Jim, I'm obviously not there on a day-to-day basis watching what happens between you and W, but it sounded to me like y'all were making some really good progress. I don't know if you remember but I suggested postponing that conversation and giving it some more time to see how things develop for fear of your W seeing you as being too pushy and impatient. Her response is exactly what I thought might happen.
I'm reading a lot of the advice you're getting here and just kind of biting my tongue, I really don't understand why everyone here is so convinced your W needs to engrave a plaque stating that she is contractually bound to working on the M. Her actions say she is ALREADY working on the M, and what do we always say here? Actions speak louder than words, right? So why do you need her to say the words so bad? Looking at this from your W's perspective, I think she's saying "I already told you I'm committed to the M, and I'm already showing you I am, so why do you keep beating me over the head with this?"
Since you're getting conflicting info here maybe it would be a good time to invest in a DB'ing coach for some advice, it sounds like you are confused on how to proceed.
My other question for all is: Now that I have dropped this bomb, how should i be acting around her, demeanor-wise. I didn't feel like last night was staged or affected or faked in any way-- i really was bothered and hurt that she didnt or couldnt say those words "Im committed" even as she tried to imply that she was, and I really felt like i didn't want to "be" with her in the MBR.
I'm sorry it did not go better for you. I really don't think you need to initiate another talk. I know you want to.......but you are too frustrated and upset. You first need to step back and cool down. She said everything you predicted she would say, so don't push for more talk.....at least for a few days.
As to how to act around her, I think you should be quiet. Maybe get out of the house and give her space for a few days. See if she approaches you with more than she gave you in the talk. If not.........then you can decide the next step.
I think she's saying "I already told you I'm committed to the M, and I'm already showing you I am, so why do you keep beating me over the head with this?"
Nah, AS, I think she just doesn't get it and doesn't want to get it. She doesn't think there's any problems with staying out late,unannounced, and also doesn't recognize the patterns in herself that show she's still holding on to something of the A. And she is still, in some respect, carrying resentment of me for all that came before.
Some of the progress looks good because things were so bleak before, but... I just think she's not there right now.
IMHO, a WW has to have her feet held to the fire.......in order to come back all the way. The MC sessions have been put to the side for a while, she won't make appointment for IC, and it appears there may be a slack in transparency. Even if she has not directly contacted the OM, she is putting herself in a vulnerable position by getting too slack in these areas. She is blaming you in some of her responses about the ring, etc. To me, attitude shows what's in the heart.
It seems so incredible that she just "doesn't get it". If she didn't get it, then why play the games and give you the flimsy excuses for missing two exits, staying so late after work, going close by the OM's hangout, and other things she's done? I think she gets it enough to cover her tracks.
I am not surprised by her reaction, especially about having sex. 15 yrs is a long time to live together without being intimate. She probably does resent it. And she resented your statements about working toward having an intimate MR. Her sexual desire may not be in tune to you, but that's not to say it can't happen. She needs to do some work on her heart. If she does the heart work, she'll get in tune to you.
If I had not had someone working with me, holding my feet to the flame......I doubt I would be here writing this post tonight.
((hugs))
Sandi, a couple of questions, and for the first i am going to be blasted by half the board but i am going to ask it anyway:
A couple of caveats first: #1, i don't think my W is even at the place where i am going to ask you if it is a viable place to be (follow that? :-/ ), let alone at a place of saying "I am fully and totally committed to this MR", and #2, I understand that what i am about to propose may allow "wiggle room", but...
Is there a place in the WW recovery cycle for a stage of "I dont think i can do this, but i
want to try"(and by this i mean they actually DO want to try and arent just blowing smoke) or is the only acceptable posture and response, in your opinion, "I am fully and totally committed to the M and will do anything and endure anything to save it" (?)
Also, who would you say "worked with you and held your feet to the flame?" The kind folks on this board? Your H? Or did you have a MC/IC (I forget and couldn't find any reference to it.)
It seems so incredible that she just "doesn't get it". If she didn't get it, then why play the games and give you the flimsy excuses for missing two exits, staying so late after work, going close by the OM's hangout, and other things she's done? I think she gets it enough to cover her tracks.
And, yes, she has put herself in these situations (in OM's neighborhood) way too often-- at least five times that i know of in past two and a half months including the time she want after i basically told her she shouldnt go to the store-- to have been accidental. It kind of boggles my mind that she continues to trot out the "Wrong turn" story. She's done that FOUR TIMES!!! And these are just the times i know of where i've called her for one reason or another. I suppose there might be more. A couple of times i know for a fact she didn't take the final detour to drive right by OM's spot but... the fact that she'd even drive over out of her way to get in that area is disturbing, even if she did get cold feet at the very end. I have to think if she keeps it up eventually shell get to the point where she doesnt get cold feet.
I went to my spot tonight, met some friends, but i missed her. First time she hasn't stopped by on a Thursday in probably three months. I missed her. Not wavering, just being honest about my feelings.
Is there a place in the WW recovery cycle for a stage of "I dont think i can do this, but i want to try"(and by this i mean they actually DO want to try and arent just blowing smoke) or is the only acceptable posture and response, in your opinion, "I am fully and totally committed to the M and will do anything and endure anything to save it" (?)
Jim, I'd say that's about the place you are at.. Fear of Better Options pops in my mind, she knows she "should" be with you, but she is afraid she will be giving up better options so she will never actually commit. If your ww doesn't chose to be with you, doesn't decide that you are the one she wants to be with, you will likely live how you are now until she finds what she considers to be a better option.
Go read NicoleR's intro, her H left her for OW for a short period (2 weeks or months I think), then came back unexpectedly and 2 years later she is here because her H never actually committed to fixing things and left again. There have been a few other posters over the last 2 years I've been here that were here because of the 2nd, 3rd, or 4th A, but I can't think of their names right now. In every case, they all say the same thing, they never resolved what happened, their spouse never understood the devastation they caused, they all let their spouses back and just tried to be happy going forward without looking back first.
Was very tired when I wrote my last. The hypothetical I proposed should have read: "I
don't know if I can do this, but I want to try"... (as opposed to "I don't
think I can do this but I want to try...") Because words matter...
Fear of Better Options pops in my mind, she knows she "should" be with you, but she is afraid she will be giving up better options so she will never actually commit.
Its interesting that you post that, because that has been a nagging thought/sentiment that my W has carried around for a LOOONG time, even before we met back in our 20s. Back then, we had a couple of starts and stops before we got together for good-- both times because she got cold feet in one respect or another. She has commitment issues. I remember back then was the first time she told me something to the effect of "I always used to wonder ever since I was a little girl if I could ever get married because I would never know if I had met the perfect person for me-- there's no way you would ever know unless you met every person in the world!" She of course has said something like that more recently, as well, in MC I think, when talking about how she was never "all in" on our marriage because she "was never 100% certain that hoosjim was the one for me... I always had doubts even when I was attracted to him and getting married etc etc".
But the fact that she's carried around that sentiment for so long tells me it's probably REALLY ingrained and that we REALLY are not going to get anywhere unless and until she goes into IC and works out all of her s**t.
Is there a place in the WW recovery cycle for a stage of "I dont think i can do this, but i want to try"(and by this i mean they actually DO want to try and arent just blowing smoke) or is the only acceptable posture and response, in your opinion, "I am fully and totally committed to the M and will do anything and endure anything to save it" (?)
That's a very hard question to answer, and it may be determined by the individual stitch, IDK. Until she has completely gone through the withdrawal period, I think the best she can do is to be "willing" to try. Her "want to" isn't there, b/c she still wants something with the OM. Remember that the WW is all about her emotions. She wants to
feel the desire to try again. She just wants the desire to be there without any trying to achieve it. Was it your W that said it should come naturally, without having to "work" at it? Honestly, I don't think she can feel the "want to", as long as she carries a torch for another guy or thinks her H isn't the right man for her. But she can make the decision to do the work, whether or not she feels any emotion about it. Right after ending the A, I think it's very difficult for a WW to say she is committed to working on the MR. "Committed" sounds so final to her ears......almost like a death sentence. I mean, she thinks she's missed her last chance at happiness by ending things with the OM.
I remember board members asking me couldn't I just commit to working on my MR. But at the time, I felt very resentful and had no desire
to try whatsoever. I was so low that I had to reach the place of just being willing....to
think about being willing to try, if you know what I mean. I felt as if I was giving up my last chance at true happiness....and to escape my misery. I think your W may be experiencing it, too. The fact that she wasn't even sure at the time she got M that you were the right/best person for her....I don't even know say about it. And, she's still saying it. It must be very painful for you! I'm surprised, frankly, that she has not had several previous affairs. She has the mindset of still looking for Mr. Right. She's looking for the fairy tale. Until she comes to terms with that issue, I don't know if she'll put her all into M to a man she doesn't even know if he's right for her, b/c emotionally she is still looking for a better deal. I believe all WW's think her H is right for her at that time, but your W had serious doubts before she M you.
To know she had serious commitment issues before getting M, and still has them......only shows she needs IC, IMHO. I mean, it didn't just start when OM entered the picture. This has been something she held on to for a long time. Every time her emotional needs were not met by you, it would have been easy for her to think it was b/c you were not the right man for her.
Without therapy to guide her through the work on her mental attitude about the fairy tale, it may be expecting too much from her. I'm not saying you are expecting too much for her to do more in showing you she is trying to cooperate with what you need. But she may not give you those words of commitment. It's not fair, but that may be the reality, until she is willing to talk it out with an IC. She was not even willing to do that much. Maybe it's something deep......or maybe it's stubbornness to let go of the fantasy.
Letting go of the fantasy was very hard for me. I could not find the emotional strength to even think about "trying" to do work on my MR. I was so depressed, as well as having other health issues.
After I ended my A, I asked my H if he would attend MC with me. He would not even consider it. That was a blow, b/c I knew we really needed it. I went to see an IC. I told her about my A, and the first words out of her mouth was that I had done nothing wrong. I had enough sense to know that wasn't what I needed to be told. I needed someone who was not going to let me off the hook so easily. I got it from the DB board, especially a couple of women who would mentor me off the board. Back then, we could email other board members. I would stay on the board every day until I could not hold open my eyes that night. I ordered a ton of books that helped me. I wish I could tell you the one that really opened my eyes, but due to policy, I can't.
Yes, being the only WW on the board....I definitely had my feet held to the fire! We use to have a few tough guys that were ready to devour a WW. (But just between you & I, I think I held my own pretty well with them.
Anyway, shortly afterwards, my H's health took a downward spiral, and has been poor ever since. Of course, I blamed myself, and the fact he found my messages to the OM. He even admitted that he felt he was having an heart attack on one of those occasions. Once I got through the withdrawals, I never doubted I had made the right decision. Doing the right thing was always important to me, so that had a bearing on my decision to stay with my H. BTW, feelings for my H did eventually return, but it took quite a while b/c I wouldn't let go of fantasizing about how things may have gone if I had left with the OM. Once I got past that part, then I had room in my heart for my H.
Another thing I give credit for helping me stay on the straight and narrow while going through the withdrawals was transparency. I had read about the importance of following a transparency plan, from some of those tough guys I mentioned. So when I decided to end my contact with OM, I began applying the transparency technique, even though my H never asked. He would often walk up behind me to see why I was on the computer so much, and I told him I was posting on the board. He even read my messages for a while, without my knowledge at the time. Transparency was helping me to stay honest with him and with
myself. Maybe that is why I encourage it so much.
I did not
bounce back. It was slow and agonizing. I had to do work on my heart, and it took about two years before I actually felt that I was emotionally ready and had the strength to work on the MR. I was so drained that I was like a stroke victim trying to learn how to do simple tasks again. The WW has a ton of unseen work to do in herself before she can put much effort into the MR. However, let me add that I did not do anything that resembled GGW behavior, take overnight trips without my H, or meet up to have a girls night out. I did not go for drinks with my co-workers, and I did not stay late at work. So, even if I wasn't putting enough effort into the working on the MR.....at least, I wasn't doing activity that caused my H to worry. I'd like to think that counts for something. It's all work for her......if she's being honest and behaving herself.
I don't know if anything I've said answers your questions. I wish I could give a more clear and satisfied statement. It took me about two years, so I would have to say that it comes gradually and in baby steps, depending on the individual and the stitch.
How are things going, Jim? Hope to hear from you soon.
How are things going, Jim? Hope to hear from you soon.
We didn't do any socializing this weekend and we had a lot going on with S1 back in town to take care of some commitments he had, and I had a get-together with my friends on Sunday afternoon-evening, so there were lots of ready-made excuses to keep us out of each others' hair.
After i had slept apart from her for a third night and things had been not quite nearly as warm between us-- Convo came up after i had been out with S1 and picked up lunch and did not pick up anything for her. This was not a punitive or deliberate action on my part, its just the conversation we had had on the phone before i detoured to get food made me think she didn't want anything-- but in retrospect i really just hadn't been paying attention. She seemed pretty sad/hurt by that and I felt pretty bad-- that sort of thoughtlessness/fortgetfullness was part of my old pattern that really got under her skin, plus not a great example for the two young men i am raising-- so I had gone back out to get her something since we had nothing at the house and she was busy with a work project. The convo came about after i had apologized for not getting her something for lunch earlier and we were talking about things in general(And remember please that I am not a Dictaphone so this is only paraphrasing as best I can recall):
W: "I felt like things were going in a positive direction, like we were getting closer and like things are going better, and then we have one of these setbacks [our convo from last week when she had been out late]... and then you need space and then i feel like maybe i need some space, too... I feel like i am doing what you want me to do and so i get confused and upset when you say all that"
On being committed to the MR: "I didn't say the word "committed" the other night when you kept asking me, but I am. Maybe i never said it before but I am committed. Do I know if i can give you what you want in terms of intimacy? No, i don't, but i
want to try. I know that is going to take work. I can't give you all of that right this moment, though... I'm just not
there right now."
On getting home from her work wine-down late last Thursday, after she had gone a bit over-time before texting me and then only vaguely until she was an hour-plus late. "I know this is on me, that I created this dynamic by doing what i did where you easily mistrust me, but i
am trying. I've been letting you know when I am going to do something with friends and I have been calling when i am out or later than i said i would be, and this is the first time i have even been out "late" by myself. And this time even that was only because ________ got sick and had to be taken care of and driven home [also truth--hj]." She also mentioned, very obliquely and briefly, the fact that i had recently stayed out two hours past my predicted return time and that i had not called or texted at all.
On the lapse in counseling and being committed to the counselling: "We
have been doing that... we just haven't had the chance over the holidays and then working with S1 on his issues. And yes, it is outside of my comfort zone to talk to outsiders about my problems or health issues [this is actually true and has always been... it's a family culture on her side] let alone take the initiative to approach a doctor or counselor, but I am happy to let you continue making the appointments and to keep going."
FWIW, my MC/IC told me in our IC session that it is okay and perhaps even necessary at this point for me to be scheduling all the appointments myself and "bringing her [W] along", that hopefully MC can continue to talk to her and prevail upon her to enter IC.
For my part, I maintained when talking to W that that (IC) as recommended by the MC was something that is "must" and something I "need" if we are to keep doing this. However,on the intimacy/full-marriage issue I granted that i did not mean that I needed her jump into the sack with me right this instant (Which is the way W said she took our earlier talk) --just that i needed her to be committed to a MR that included that.
I also reiterated that i needed her to continue to be transparent, especially in dynamics (her "out with the girls", for instance) that were problematic when she was in the A.
I did ask her what she wanted from a MR with me, and what she felt she "needed" in order to continue-- she said she thought a lot of things now were better than they had ever been between us, friendship, fun, family dynamics, child-rearing teamwork, but that in some ways (mainly sex/intimacy) "not so much", which is where she talked about not knowing if she could give me that but that she wanted to try and knew it would take work. She didn't really give me any pre-requisites that she "needed" though.
There was also something she said, and it is driving me crazy that i can't remember what, that was a significant retrenchment/retreat from the typical WW script and from the way she had previously spoken about that particular thing recently. It's driving me NUTS! It wasn't i don't think any return to fond memories of things we'd done or change in her way of talking about what we'd had in the past (though she has already retrenched quite a bit on this already-- "Once those two little boys were born, i was "all-in"; A-HA! I remember, it was just a little something, maybe a slip. But: In the past she has been all about saying how "mad she was at herself for being weak when she was younger, and allowing herself to be drawn into a MR that she wasn't ready for and committed to and that now multiple people (including her) stood to be hurt by that." In our most recent talk, at one point she said "And I am really angry with myself for letting that other relationship go as far as it did, for letting it get too close, and that I just "checked out" instead of trying harder to save our MR before I got to the point where i felt i could step outside the MR and have the affair." That was something very different than anything she has said previously. Maybe something maybe nothing, IDK.
Whatever, she's been in kind of a funky mood again the past couple of days, though. Work bearing down on her for starters but i think its more.
I am going to check with W on her schedule tonight and then schedule a MC session in the next week or so. See how it goes. I am going to reiterate there that I need her to get into IC, and, if she doesn't, I am going to suggest that some time apart might be better for us. I may float that idea out there anyway.
Also, FWIW in terms of behavior, she has been wearing a bracelet i gave her at Christmas and has not taken it off since. And, no, she has not put back on her wedding ring-- something else i plan to bring up in the MC, probably couched as "you're not wearing your rings now, what would it look like to you to be at a point where you would put them back on? Or is it just that im not wearing one either? Because, if the latter, I say lets just go buy me one when we leave here today."
Ugh. Today's dose of bad news: Had lunch with my own BF, whose toxic STBXWW is my own wife's bff and chief bad influence. His D is actually dragging out a bit (funny how that happens when you stop giving your Ww everything she wants) and because of this as well as other factors my W's bff will now not be moving to FLA until mid June at earliest. She had previously been planning to move this month.
Oh well, maybe it will be a blessing and having her in closer proximity for these extra months will allow my W to finally see what a selfish, toxic, train wreck she is, as opposed to someone to be idolized.
a couple of thoughts/questions...
1. I think you need to sit down and figure out what you need to see from your wife. Are you ok with her wanting to try, or do you need her to tell you that she wants to be with you and will do anything to save your marriage? Do you want her to actively seek help (MC or IC), or are you ok with her just going if you schedule it? you get the idea, write that list down and share it with us.
2. Are you willing to walk away if she doesn’t do show those things, or will you stay anyway and just fumble along as you have for the last year?
3. Do you believe that your wife had a PA? Would you walk if you found out she had?
There is sexual intimacy and then there are other forms of physical intimacy like holding hands, kissing, hugging, cuddling. Has she been working on those? Because that should be coming before sexual intimacy. Do you guys hold hands? Do you kiss each other good morning and goodnight? Does she ever lay her head on your chest?
Dang it. I just wrote an entire frikking post and lost it.
There is sexual intimacy and then there are other forms of physical intimacy like holding hands, kissing, hugging, cuddling. Has she been working on those? Because that should be coming before sexual intimacy.
I will touch and/or hug her when we part in the morning or return home at night, though sometimes her body language is clear that she is not open to a hug so I don't push it. A few times we have kissed on the cheek on these occasions in recent weeks. She'll also hug and give me a cheek kiss in church when it is time for the greeting... something she also was not comfortable with previously.
In bed we had been growing steadily closer, sort of slowly eating up the real estate between us which had, at time of BD and during the affair, been vast-- each of us on our own edge of the bed facing away. Over the holidays and leading up to our convo last week, we had progressed to the point where we were pretty regularly touching while we slept, facing each other, and even with my arm over/around her in a spoon (though not a really tight one). This is also something that wouldn't have happened, say, three or four months ago-- I had made that move a couple of times, to hold her at night spontaneously and it had caused her to sit bolt uprignt and/or get out of bed. MC had told us at one point around that same timeframe to try to be more deliberate about that, and I had, on a few occasions after we had been out socially and come home, told her "come on over here" or the like, and then held her with her head on my shoulder while we went to sleep-- that was really the start of her getting more comfortable with it.
And finally, probably the closest to sexual intimacy was a couple of weeks back which I described previously, where she was open to me caressing and stroking her during a fairly erotic conversation we were having.
Still not mouth on mouth kissing for the most part, and no open mouth kissing at all... and still no her taking the initiative to lay her head on my chest. Hand holding is something I have not pushed either, other than taking her hand from time to time when we talk to emphasize a point or when she is saying something "difficult" for her. Maybe that is something I should make more of a move on, but it's my understanding that romantic hand-holding, fingers intertwined, etc, is considered very intimate by most women, and a big step. We haven't held hands in years upon years, not since the very early years of children, and mine are 18 and 19 now.
So, very clearly progress on those other forms of intimacy, or at least progress in terms of her "trying" them... but I do sense genuine warmth there. IS it enough for me? IDK. I'd really like to see her taking the initiative on something... throw her arms around me at some point, IDK. At this rate I'll be 60 before we're having sex.
Coconut:
Are you ok with her wanting to try, or do you need her to tell you that she wants to be with you and will do anything to save your marriage? Do you want her to actively seek help (MC or IC), or are you ok with her just going if you schedule it?
As to MC/IC, while I would love for her to be taking the initiative and making her own and some of our appointments, or at least telling me: "HEy, you should make us an appointment" (And I have told both her and MC this), that is way, way, way outside of her comfort zone, culturally speaking, as is for that matter her talking about her personal problems at all. Also, MC has said it is not unusual for a recovering WW like my W to not be very proactive in that regard generally, that recovery takes a while. So, MC seems comfortable with the prospect of me making all the appointments ("you may have to bring her along and take the lead for a while if you want her to come to counseling")
One thing I absolutely [i]do need is for her (W) to seek out IC. It is very, very clear that a lot of her personal issues (commitment issues, self-esteem issues, etc., not to mention the affair addiction and recovery angle) have a large bearing on our likelihood of reconciliation. W and I have talked about this and she agrees, and agrees she should go "talk to someone." So... yeah. I need her to do that and that is something I told her last week, that I reiterated a couple of days ago, and which I am going to bring up at next MC session-- that that is a must, otherwise im not going to keep doing this. It's a waste.
2. Are you willing to walk away if she doesn’t do show those things, or will you stay anyway and just fumble along as you have for the last year?
There's a lot of things that would absolutely lead me to walk away. Her seeing Om in any capacity, or having any kind of intimate relationship with another man is obviously number one. If she suddenly backpedalled on her transparency. If she refused to go to MC would be another. If she refuses IC? My inclination is that I should walk, there, too. Or at least step back a good bit. She has known for a while that she needs that, MC has said it, friends have said it, we have talked about and acknowledged it. While I know that that is way outside of her comfort zone to go talk to someone one on one like that, it's clearly something necessary to a successful reconciliation. But that's a little bit harder.. I think I am going to have to get over that reluctance, though, because the IC is going to be so important. OTOH, she seems to think we are "making progress" and, in several respects we are, and when I drop the hammer on her for whatever she professes not to understand and to be hurt that I am stepping back
3. Do you believe that your wife had a PA? Would you walk if you found out she had?
I've actually discussed this before on here. As of BD (1/23/17) I know she had not (the convo I overheard between her and OM was clear on that point. There were three four or five months of A after that, however. It clearly was progressing in that direction. Later communications and based on her actions and behavior (I wont go into details) I still believe it was not a PA, although they did have opportunity. Would it make a difference to me? No... I've said before it hurts more to think of her falling in love with OM than it does to think of her having sex with him.
On being committed to the MR: "I didn't say the word "committed" the other night when you kept asking me, but I am. Maybe i never said it before but I am committed. Do I know if i can give you what you want in terms of intimacy? No, i don't, but i want to try. I know that is going to take work. I can't give you all of that right this moment, though... I'm just not there right now."
Then why would she deliberately withhold the words you kept asking from her? Her usual pat answer of, I'm still here" was snide.......and according to your description of her reaction, she knew she was being snide and not trying to cooperate. That's cruel, in my book........but then, WW's can be the worst.
Another cruel action is bringing up her doubts before she M you, and she still wonders if there is another man that would fit her better. But apparently, she is not compassionate about how that makes you feel.
The reason I bring up these two actions again, is b/c it's very obvious she is self absorbed. Perhaps she has been self absorbed since before the wedding. Maybe she has always been that way. If so, then I don't know whether or not she'll make the progress you want. She
can, if she has someone like your MC who will be very frank with her, and not just tell her what she wants to hear. She doesn't like being accountable to you, and I think her rebellion rises, as has been seen lately. Perhaps that's why she started pulling back from the counselor, b/c she was pushing for your W's accountability, and to do homework W didn't want to do.
She talks as if she doesn't have a clue as to what you want from her. I have difficulty believing it, even if she really thought you were not interested in ever being intimate again and simply living as roommates. So, I suggest you tell her in very plain language that she'll understand. Draw the picture of what you see as "working on the MR".....so there will be no guessing games.
My concern is that even in non-sexual relationships, compassion and respect for the other one exist. I just haven't seen you reporting where she is giving of herself in the relationship. She is just there. A WW has a lot of work to do on the inside, and if she is truly doing that work........instead of stalling or backsliding, then her H should start to see a little glimmer of hope.
The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her? Before the affair, would she let you kiss her when leaving for work? You said there has been no mouth on mouth kissing for years? Wow! If there was ever a sign a MR is in trouble, it is when there is no touching........and no kissing.
.
I just want to encourage you to see that counselor more often, if you are going to stay in this M. And, you are going to need to gently lead the way in the department of non-sexual touching. We discussed this some time ago. There needs to be much more than what you've done. Just start doing it, Jim. I think you've waited on her, and that's not working. She'll never be ready for sex, if there is no kind of normal non-sexual touching between the two of you. I don't mean just once in a while, but starting now with very simple non-sexual touches of some kind every single day. Let her get use to them, and get comfortable. Act as if it is totally normal, b/c it
is normal for couples to touch.
Start giving her a hug. Give her a kiss when you leave for work (at least on the cheek). It doesn't mean putting your hand on her shoulder is going to lead to sex. But as you said, you just want to know that both of you are working toward eventually having an intimate relationship. I just don't think it will get there with you never taking the lead in these other ways first.
Have you started sleeping back in the bed with her?
Then why would she deliberately withhold the words you kept asking from her? Her usual pat answer of, I'm still here" was snide.......and according to your description of her reaction, she knew she was being snide and not trying to cooperate. That's cruel, in my book........but then, WW's can be the worst.
Another cruel action is bringing up her doubts before she M you, and she still wonders if there is another man that would fit her better. But apparently, she is not compassionate about how that makes you feel.
I don't know that she's being deliberately cruel. Quite frankly, my take on the
primary reason she is "still here" is that it is precisely because she does
not want to be cruel or hurt anyone. This has always been part of her nature that she hates to hurt people or to see them hurt--she is very giving of her time, very empathetic, very deferential to others in terms of her own interests versus theirs (her work is a GREAT example where she takes way too much s**t in order that the other girls who work with and for her will have an easier go of it). She has repeatedly said that one of the reasons she hates MC is that she feels like every other thing she says is hurting me in one way or another, though I have told her in response that her being open and honest with me and leveling with me about things is not hurtful at all compared to the alternative.
In this case, my take is that it is more in the nature of rebelliousness. She simply doesn't want to be told that she "has to" do something. She has always been this way. Always. She was the most headstrong of her three siblings and her M & D will tell you that. She always constrained her own behavior due to her Catholic upbringing in significant matters, but even when she was little, my FIL will tell you stories about how the best way to get her to do something was to tell her "not do it." Almost got her hurt badly a couple of times. Layer on that added layer of WW resentment and rebellion and you got trouble. And resentment. One of her big mantras in all of this has (or at least had) been that she is tired of doing what she is "supposed to" do. So, if I'm leaning on her to say "You must say "I'm committed", that makes it that much harder to say those exact words.
The reason I bring up these two actions again, is b/c it's very obvious she is self absorbed. Perhaps she has been self absorbed since before the wedding. Maybe she has always been that way. If so, then I don't know whether or not she'll make the progress you want.
I don't know that she has always been self-absorbed, at least not any more than the average human being is (though admittedly that can still be quite a lot). During and since the A, however, there has definitely been an element of that: "I know im being selfish but I felt like for the first time I was doing something for
me, that
I. wanted." Now, she has not trotted out that line of talk in a while, and WRT last week's talk, it was one of the things I thought might be significant. In the past she would have been inclined to say, in so many words "I am angry with myself for not being stronger and leaving when I was already fed up and done and that that led to more hurt for everyone" and/or angry because "only now, when I decided I wanted this one relationship did you decide you wanted to try to fix things, too late". LW, she said she was angry with herself "for not trying harder to fix things between us before they got to be so broken". To me that was a bit of a shift, but whoo knows how significant.
At any rate, she has had doubts about us and commitment problems since, yes, before we were married, though we were more "into" each other than she was willing to grant a few months ago. She has since started "remembering" that things were better than she was letting on previously, but still maintains she had doubts. Which I totally believe... because we had a couple starts/stops and she told me something similar way back when. Though, ultimately, she did tell me "I want you and only you."
She talks as if she doesn't have a clue as to what you want from her.
Oh, she knows. She might not want to admit it to me, or to herself, but she knows. You can tell when she calls or talks to me. There's still some rebelliousness there... which is an issue for the IC, IMO.
My concern is that even in non-sexual relationships, compassion and respect for the other one exist. I just haven't seen you reporting where she is giving of herself in the relationship. She is just there. A WW has a lot of work to do on the inside, and if she is truly doing that work........instead of stalling or backsliding, then her H should start to see a little glimmer of hope.
Clarify on this, please. I think I know what you are getting at but I am not certain. She obviously has work to do on the inside but... what do you mean and what should I be looking for in terms of "giving herself in the R"?
The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her?
Some of this is probably on me. I am not and never have been much of an "initiator". The current rift between us, seemingly setting us back to "pre-dating" has not made it any easier in that regard. There is fear of rejection, sure, but also fear of scaring her away. There
was a point where she did not want me touching any part of her, during the A and then for a while afterward. That is not the case now, as I was trying to explain in my previous post. She will brush past me or lean up against me or let me put my arm around her or snuggle up to me some in bed, and I do touch her lightly in passing or when we are talking or out. So she is definitely more open to it, and she has said herself "I agree with MC that I think we just need to try this" (Though she also said, albeit several weeks back when last we talked to MC that she had a hard time envisioning some of the more sexual touches that were included in the latter stages of this program that MC wanted us to do, though she said she was "Willing to try to get there.")
You said there has been no mouth on mouth kissing for years? Wow! If there was ever a sign a MR is in trouble, it is when there is no touching........and no kissing. frown.
Yes. I have made not secret of that, here. Though, my threads are extensive here, at this point, and you are helping many many different folks here, so you may not recall but, yes, we definitely had not only a SSM but an intimacy-starved marriage. It has been a few years since we kissed each other goodbye or hello, or even engaged in any physical touching. A lot of factors created that dynamic, some out of my control, but it is what it is. Our marriage suffered grave, grave damage as a result. Perhaps fatally. I don't know if it will be possible to overcome all of that. It might, as you and others have said, take a separation between us and her missing the relationship we have been rebuilding as well as missing the "new improved hoosjim" if we are ever to get there.
Have you started sleeping back in the bed with her?
Yes, but it is not as cozy as it was prior to last week's talk. I think we really need a good night out together or something where we connect a little bit to break the ice.
Another cruel action is bringing up her doubts before she M you, and she still wonders if there is another man that would fit her better. But apparently, she is not compassionate about how that makes you feel.
And, another question about this-- And some here are going to accuse me of "defending her" but: Do I
not want her to be honest about her feelings? I mean, IDK... I think I'd rather she be telling me that than not telling me that if that's the way she feels... Or is it about timing and wording and form?
Three oddball unrelated updates/tidbits:
1) W not only agreed to next MC session, but came home and said, unsolicited: "I can take off Wednesday two weeks after that-- we could go down and do an all-day intensive with her on that day."
2) She was going to cash a check she got from my Mom at Christmas-- we each got one-- and showed me a stash of checks she had received from my side of the family over the past year plus (dating back to Fall 2016, when the A started)... and she said "I just didn't feel right cashing them..." (Good to know she had at least a little bit of conscience while she was running around on me.)
3) Now the bad. At dinner tonight, she mentioned bringing bff (who is in town for the weekend) out with us tomorrow night (Friday). I think she is going to try to be peacemaker but... I just don't see how that ever happens. For those who haven't been following me, bff is and was very wayward-- cheated three times on my own BF to whom she was married for a number of years and now is finally getting a D. Bff was, at least at one point, working directly opposed to my MR-- assisting my W in covering it up and, becoming assimilated into OM's circle of friends. W says she (W) is a "big girl" and bff never did anything that W didn't ask her to do. Of course, I know this is not true as, just this past October, when W was showing real signs of improvement, bff called W from OM's bar, with OM and friends in background, and tried to entice her to come out and meet them. My W admitted she wanted to come (tearfully) but said "no." W does not know i know this-- it was discovered in the waning days of me keeping regular tabs on her, which i no longer do. Since then, AFAIK, bff has behaved herself, but i know from talking to my own bff that W's bff is still toxically angry at him and, by extension, all of my bff's frat bro friends from college (One of us found out about the infidelity and angrily confronted her at a get together a few months back.) I also know that bff has, at times, at least played at being "neutral" WRT what my w is doing (me vs. OM), but I can't get out of my head her calling W and upsetting her and setting her back. I also kinda half suspect her of slipping me a mickey way back last summer, though i have absolutely no proof... just that i blacked out after three 1/2 drinks, and I am no novice drinker.
Should i go along with this and see if i can make peace with bff? Jump up and down and scream HELL NO!(?) Or just find an excuse to be elsewhere? Fridays lately we have typically reserved for "us", so i don't really want to give that up but... IDK, spending an evening with her and bff (and bff can actually be a very fun and engaging person) doesn't really excite me.
Should i go along with this and see if i can make peace with bff? Jump up and down and scream HELL NO!(?) Or just find an excuse to be elsewhere? Fridays lately we have typically reserved for "us", so i don't really want to give that up but... IDK, spending an evening with her and bff (and bff can actually be a very fun and engaging person) doesn't really excite me.
I find many elements of your sitch similar to mine. In 2012, my W had a much younger friend who was very toxic to the relationship. I think I made the mistake of letting this person be a part of our lives.
In your case, this sounds like you should think about your boundaries. Can you tell the W, "you BFF did this and this, and I will not spend time with her." ?
I was thinking about things. You have been living like roommates for many years, this is nothing new or prompted by the A. I think it is great that you both want to strive for a healthy M, but I didn't realize it was so intimacy starved as well as sex starved. No physical touch prior to this is kind of a game changer. I really do think the only want you are going to get to the point of regaining that is through serious therapy focusing on THAT. You will need to discuss the steps you need to take to regain that level of intimacy. There will be lots of exercises and practices to get back there. And willingness on both your parts. Sex is something probably farther in the future. You need to simply learn to touch again. To kiss. To hold hands, to cuddle.
I have a high sex drive. But I will tell you, I could live without sex before I could live without the emotional/physical intimacy of simple loving gestures.
Take her up on the offer of intensive therapy. I hope you find a way to make this work.
In your case, this sounds like you should think about your boundaries. Can you tell the W, "you BFF did this and this, and I will not spend time with her." ?
A couple things here:
On the "oh hell no" side: she cheated on my bf, not once, not twice, but three times. Last time sith a mutual friend, wrecking several friendships in the process. She also, under the most friendly interpretation I can come up with, assisted my W in both carrying on my W's A and covering it up. At worst, she enabled and encouraged it (though I have no hard evidence of that prior to my W going "no contact." Finally, while W and I were in the early stages of "working on the MR"/reconciliation, I know for a
fact that she called W from Om's hangout, with OM present, and tried to encourage W to come join them, putting W in tears and definitely "Setting her back" for a couple of weeks (W said "no" to the invite.)
On the "positive" side of the ledger... Well, there really isn't one, I guess. This is my W's bff, and she has failed to cut the cord even knowing what her bff has done: ("I know and everyone knows what she did was wrong, but now that's in the past, and wouldn't it be best if we could just wish her well and hope she and everybody else is happy?") Many months ago, when W was still in her ongoing A, when I first told her about her bff's A, and what a jerk bff's AP was to our mutual friend (really rubbed his nose in it, saying it was all my friends fault and calling him a loser, etc) she cut me off saying "No, stop please, I don't want to hear"-- and not angrily, but definitely in a plaintive way indicative of her not being able to process the ugly truth about that A and about her bff.
Whatever... bff is still a very important person in my W's life. Probably her most important non-blood relationship outside of me an perhaps moreso than me. And W is afraid she can't have both relationships. She has twice invited bff to come stay at house overnight and once to go out with us, and bff declined everytime. I, for my part, have played it cool and indicated I'd have no problem being somewhere with her and bff... as long as I knew that bff was supportive of our MR. This has effectively been bluff-calling on my part. I actually have no desire whatsoever to hang out with bff, but, given that I have more reason than any one else in our circle of friends to dislike her due to her role directly oppositional to my MR in addition to her own infidelity, I don't believe she will ever accept one of W's invitations. (She has unfriended on FB every one of us associated with my friend and frat brother, and shuns them all like the plague, and that's just because she knows they know how badly she treated my friend-- in my case, there's that PLUS her role in trying to draw away my W). I don't want to look like the jerk/heel/difficult party. Let bff assume that role.
And, if by some chance bff calls MY bluff, I am pretty sure that these days I can play it cool in such a social situation.
Additionally, my W has made it a point to point out to me on a couple of occasions (most recently when we had our little dust-up last week) that she has really been trying to include me and "let me in" to more areas of her life: Inviting me to her office parties, inviting me to more family functions and trips with her parents (which she had tapered off on over the past couple of years and especially during the A), inviting me to go out with her and her GFs... And she is absolutely right-- she has been doing that. And now she wants me to make nice with bff. I suppose I could try... even though I have no actual desire and, as I stated above, I don't think SHE will agree to come out with ME.
The only boundaries I have established WRT bff is that I will not have her working against our MR and I wont hang out or socialize with bff unless I have some indication that she is
...no longer working against our MR and that she is sorry for her previous role in aiding and assisting the A. And even in that case, I told me W that I don't imagine I will ever trust her enough to be the fairly close friend with her that I was at one point (way back when during the time when all four of us were happily married.)
And some clarification on the above: Neither W nor bff know that I know about the "bff encouraging my W to come out and meet her and OM at the bar" incident back in October... and I'd just assume keep it that way-- no reason for them to know I was periodically monitoring her at that time . My W made the right decision and didn't go, but it still messed her up some. And besides which, I "have" plenty of other reasons, well known to all parties, to mistrust bff, though, arguably, that is the most disturbing one.
Jim, I think your W's willingness to do intensive MC is a very big, positive sign.
I wonder if her trying to bring BFF around is an attempt to make peace, but I understand your reservations. Maybe BFF will apologize? IDK.
What was the nature of y'alls night out tonight? Was it something intimate for just the two of you, or y'all hanging out at a place with others? If it's the former, I'd say no to the BFF going. If it's the latter, can you take a separate car and just leave early if you start to get a bad vibe from BFF?
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My concern is that even in non-sexual relationships, compassion and respect for the other one exist. I just haven't seen you reporting where she is giving of herself in the relationship. She is just there. A WW has a lot of work to do on the inside, and if she is truly doing that work........instead of stalling or backsliding, then her H should start to see a little glimmer of hope.
Clarify on this, please. I think I know what you are getting at but I am not certain. She obviously has work to do on the inside but... what do you mean and what should I be looking for in terms of "giving herself in the R"?
Does she do things for you, like take you a cup of coffe, fix your favorite meal, run errands for you, take care of certain jobs instead of expecting you to do it.......like having the car washed, mowing the yard, etc. Does she show genuine interest when you are talking......by nodding her head and asking questions? Does she show you as much consideration as she would give a co-worker, neighbor, or a new acquaintance? Does she show you compassion when you are upset, sad, sick or injured? Does she offer encouragement when you are worried, nervous, discouraged, etc.? Does she act appreciative when you do something for her? Does she smile at you when you enter the room? Does she just give you some sign that you are important to her life? Notice that none of these actions require any touching, and could be given to most anyone outside a sexual relationship. Nevertheless, it is a form of giving of herself. Some WW's are so cold and distant to their H, that simply showing a little kindness would take more effort and feel more draining than she's willing to do. If she's in a bad mood, it's not likely she is going to do much that requires giving of herself.......even if it may be seen to most as just common courteousy.
Okay, let's say your W is already doing the type of things I mentioned above, and you are wanting to know what you should be seeing from her going into another level.
Even without sexual intimacy, there are many ways she can show effort at giving a little more of herself to the relationship. She can call you during the day, just b/c she's thinking of you and wondering how your day is going. There should be non-sexual touching throughout the day.......or at the least, throughout the week. She can pat you on the back, touch your shoulder, sit close to you on the couch and touch your arm occasionally. She can look lovingly into your eyes, instead of looking away or showing unconcern. She can speak in soft, sweet tones.......and of course, respectfully. She can laugh with you and show she is enjoying being with you. She should be able to show you that you
matter to her. Maybe this is still not up to the level you are wanting, but for a WW who is trying to recover and is serious about saving her SSM.......these very things could require more of her than she's ready to give.
If a WW sees herself as simply being "there" in the M as being all that she can give........then the H is probably in for a long, dry, and cold wait.
But let's just say she has been showing the efforts I gave in previous examples, and now she is ready to progress a little futher. What are some things you would see? When you leave for the day, she she should be able to give you a light hug. You know, just a friendly little hug and wish you a good day. In time, this can progress to standing closer while she give the hugs, instead of keep significate space between the bodies. She can begin giving little peck kisses on the side of your face.......not getting anywhere too close to your lips. It's as if she's trying to do it quickly and move on, but it is a big step for her. Eventually, she may say some last mintue words before you leave, and adjust your tie, compliment you, or some little something that just gives her a few more seconds with you before you go out. By this time, she should be able to stand close to you without looking as if she'll run for the hills if you breathe on her. She would not stiffen her body or pull back whenever you walk up behind her. She would begin putting effort in other, more personal ways......like runnning water for your bath, giving you a back rub, running her hand along your arm, buy your favorite cologne to wear, b/c she loves it, dressing in the style or colors you love to on her, etc. IMHO, those are the initial actions of giving herself to the relationship.......as best that can at the time, unless she is a cold hearted b'tch who could win an award for acting.........(and unfortunately, some WW's qualify), getting back to this level in a SSM takes effort and selfLESSness. The acts of selflessness is a 180 from the selfish momentum of a WW. If 180's were difficult for you, then imagine her having to get her heart cleaned up and find the emotional energy to start giving of herself to a M that had some serious SSM issues for years.
None of these things I've mention require her kissing you on the lips, taking showers together, touching you sexually, doing a strip tease, etc. IMHO, it would be unrealistic expectations to think your W would go from zero (no intimacy for years) to a 100 (regularly initiating sex ). However, she can put forth the effort to start out with the things I first mentioned. And as she feels more natural and comfortable with it, then she can slowly work in other things to emotionally prepare her for an intimate relationship with her H. To me, true intimacy is opening yourself to the other spouse. In to me see = Intimacy. If she wants to have loving intimacy, she has to be emotionally prepared to let you into her deepest, most sacred part of herself. And what some selfish people don't understand is that she has to give herself to you, in order to receive the joy and loving feelings she wants to experience. Of course, a mind-blowing, toe-curling, hair-pulling, earth-shattering orgasam doesn't hurt, either.
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The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her?
Some of this is probably on me. I am not and never have been much of an "initiator". The current rift between us, seemingly setting us back to "pre-dating" has not made it any easier in that regard. There is fear of rejection, sure, but also fear of scaring her away. There was a point where she did not want me touching any part of her, during the A and then for a while afterward. That is not the case now, as I was trying to explain in my previous post. She will brush past me or lean up against me or let me put my arm around her or snuggle up to me some in bed, and I do touch her lightly in passing or when we are talking or out. So she is definitely more open to it, and she has said herself "I agree with MC that I think we just need to try this" (Though she also said, albeit several weeks back when last we talked to MC that she had a hard time envisioning some of the more sexual touches that were included in the latter stages of this program that MC wanted us to do, though she said she was "Willing to try to get there.")
I think I will pick up here tomorrow. It's getting late and I need to call it a night.
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The non-sexual touches should have gotten further along by this time, IMHO. I mean, she doesn't want you touching any part of her?
Some of this is probably on me. I am not and never have been much of an "initiator". The current rift between us, seemingly setting us back to "pre-dating" has not made it any easier in that regard. There is fear of rejection, sure, but also fear of scaring her away. There was a point where she did not want me touching any part of her, during the A and then for a while afterward.
You say you have never been much of an initiator. Are you referring to just initiating sex, or was this in other things, too? And also, are you referring to just your W back before the wedding, or was this a general fear of rejection from other women as well? Did you have experience being rejected, other than your W?
If I remember right, you were the reason for not having much sex........long before OM entered the picture. So, to clarify, does your W have a track record of rejecting you when you initiated sex?
I'm going to say something I have heard other women say, and some men may find it crazy b/c they don't think like women think. So, why do men take it so personal when the W doesn't want to have sex? I'm not talking about her never wanting sex, but sometimes. Why does he flop over on his side, facing the other wall, and the silence and his cold shoulder, or back, is deafening. Remember, I am getting this from other women. My H never did anything like that.
Jim, whatever I end up saying in this post, please know that I am not pointing fingers. Neither do I want to sound as if I don't completely understand how all of this leads to a SSM. I think it takes two people to have a SSM. Humm, I don't think I've ever said that before.
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Okay, here's the thing. When God made male and female, He designed them to not only have distinct differences in their bodies........but in almost everything that sets them apart. It's as if they are two separate creatures. No wonder it's such a challenge for these two genders to become as "one". God made Eve from Adam's rib, and I think that's about all that resembled men & women thereafter.
God designed the man to be the dominant gender. God designed the woman to be the submissive gender. It doesn't mean the man can't be sensitive and considerate...... or that the woman can't have the brains to run a corporation. In a man-woman intimate relationship, God intended the man to lead/dominate and woman to be submissive/respond. When those roles are reversed, there will be trouble in the MR.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not going to say a woman should never initiate making love to her H. It works in happy relationships. But when the H becomes the primary responder, while his W is in the dominant role.......it will eventually begin to break down. Just as we see hundreds of M's in trouble right here on the board, and when looking closer.....we see a man who has taken a passive role and his W has stepped into the dominant role in their marriage and the family. Whenever a woman tries to behave like a man, it takes away from her femininity. Ever watch these shows where there is a female chief of police or something similar that was traditionally considered a man's job? She lowers her voice and tries to act like a man! What does she do when she goes home to her H and heads for the bedroom? Does she switch hats, or should I say.....switch into some little sexy piece and start showing him how soft and feminine she is? Well, if she goes home and tries to be talk and act like one of the guys......I don't think that is going to go well in the bedroom, do you? One has to be dominant and one has to be submissive, or someone will probably say they have a headache. Our society has become so complicated, no wonder marriages are in trouble. Nobody knows who or what they are suppose to be when they go home to their spouses!
So, let me get back to the part of you not wanting to scare her away, and when she didn't want you touching her while she was in the A.... and then after the A. If I remember correctly, back in days before the problems, she had a healthy sex drive. I don't remember you expounding on your issue, only that there was a health problem for you......and now you are seeing a doctor and things seem back to normal. Sorry, if I crudely stated things, it wasn't intentional. I remember when you once began feeling more confident and interested in having sex, you were eager to begin the healing process in your SSM. In fact, I couldn't help but notice that it was after your health issue was resolved that you were wanted to press your W about her committing to working on a full MR in every way, including the intimacy.
I bring that out, b/c just as your sexual health was returning back, and appeared more interested or focused on the intimacy..........so can it happen for women. I don't recall how long it had been stalled, or if there was occasional sex before your W began her EA. But I know from my own experience and from what I have gathered by studying this subject, that whenever a woman has emotionally closed her heart to her H.......she won't be interested in having sex with him. Now those with a high sex drive, may engage enough for their own sexual release......but to be emotionally engaged in making love to her H, I haven't heard where it exists in a WW. It's b/c of everything that has gone on in her mindset about her H, losing admiration for him and how it affects her desire, etc. And I don't want to offend anyone or make them angry at me if I sound as if I'm saying they don't understand if they have not been a WW or M to a WW. I am trying to say that a woman who is in love with her H and wants to save her MR, is not going to have the cold, hard hearted feelings that a WW has and is completely turned off to having her H even touch her in a non-sexual way........much less, in a sexual suggestive manner. People just cannot really grasp how disgusted it makes her feel, when just a year of so earlier she may have appeared to be pretty normal. Well, it's b/c she closed her heart to her H. And when her heart is closed to him, it is vulnerable to opening to another man.
From what I have heard and read, men are capable of separating sex from love. Although Hollywood has diligently portrayed the modern woman capable of doing the same........it contradicts the human nature of the female, and the teaching of the Bible. Women's emotions, feelings, respect, love, desire......are all tied together. It is nearly impossible for her to separate them. That's why a lonely W who has unmet emotional needs, can get hooked on romance novels and fantasize about the romantic leading man........and the end results for her is that her heart becomes closed to her H, in the same way as if she was in an actual affair with that novel's leading man. It's all in her head! Right? Right, but what is in her head, affects everything in her life! How many men do you know can read a love story and wish his W would treat him or just act like the woman in the love story. I am talking to the point that he starts giving his W the cold shoulder, and putting distance between them, etc. I have yet to hear about one man filing for D, b/c his W was nothing like the ones in romantic novels or movies. Does it really happen that way for women? Just ask Cadet. A woman can can have an imaginary affair about any man. He may be real or he may be a fictional character. However, the affects on her mindset are, disturbingly, alike.
Jim, when your W was in her A, her head was full of OM and her fantasy. There was no room for you. Women are in love with one man at a time. Not two or three or a dozen. They may be M to one man and be in love with another. She may even have sex with one and be in love with another. Heck, she could have multiple orgasams with her H and be fantasizing it's the other guy. (Is this the pep talk you needed to dominate her in the bedroom?
). Anyway, the man that resides in her head is the one affecting her heart.
After she ends her A, the OM does not simply disolve in her mind. LBH's talk and act as if they believe it's all over at the point of ending the A. Remember what I said about the gal who can have an IA with a fictional character? It is very difficult for some women to cut off those thoughts of OM. I went through the longest period of dreaming about all the "could have been". Yes, I made the decision to stay in my M, but it took a long time for my feelings to catch up with my decision. I was keeping the A alive by keeping it in my head. I was mentally feeding the A. Frankly, I was very concerned your W was doing the same.
I honestly don't know where she is at the moment. Yes, I think it is good to follow through with her suggestion about the MC's advice on just "doing it". Absolutely, go for it. You need to break that ice, and then melt that stuff instead of letting it build large enough to sank the Titanic.
. You should have been slowly working toward that goal ever since she ended the A. Look, I usually tell H's who have a W that's been in a A, to let the W initiate sex the first time after they reconcile. However, that's with the understanding that the H has been following the instructions about slowly closing the emotional gap between the couple and keeping up with the non-sexual to more intimate type of touching.
Just as a woman is affected by the thoughts that reside in her head, so is the H affected by the thoughts in his head. You have thoughts of scaring her away. Your thoughts could leave you feeling powerless and passive, rather than conducting yourself with confidence. You know how important it is to show that confidence, b/c that is the attractive ingredient that will grab her. A confident and dominant male in the bedroom? It will be more than she can resist. Many women, maybe most.......will not tell their H, "I really want you to be dominate with me". They may try to tell the H in some other way, but the guy just doesn't get it.
I have recently suggested to a couple of others to search on line about male dominance in the MR. You often ask how something would look, and I found one place about male dominance that actually broke it down into basic instructions. It uses what I call, "male language", so you guys relate. Fortunately for its readers, it doesn't take a fourth as many words as it does for women.
she has said herself "I agree with MC that I think we just need to try this" (Though she also said, albeit several weeks back when last we talked to MC that she had a hard time envisioning some of the more sexual touches that were included in the latter stages of this program that MC wanted us to do, though she said she was "Willing to try to get there.")
As you said, that was several weeks back. Recently, you confronted her about doing something or get off the pot.......so, it may have spurred her to be more willing, instead of the typical response of, "I just can't see myself ever having sex with you again". Like I told you in previous times, when you are trying to piece the M back together, she needs to do things that she would do for a friend, at the least. That should be early actions, after her depression begins to lift. But you should not see it as some signal that she's ready for sex. Then start with non-sexual touches, and stick with it until it develops into more intimate touching. It seems I told you this months ago. But I just realized a few days ago, there was absolutely no type of touching whatsoever. The women I have talked to about this, all agree that you have to close the gap before she's emotionally ready to be intimate. And, Jim, I am not talking about one day. This has to be on-going. Something some men completely miss. It's called a relationship. Keep the touching on-going. Sometimes more intense than other times, but it's like verbal communication. Maybe you don't talk at the same intensity throughout the day every day. It has it's softer, lower talks, and then the more passionate talks. But there is some verbal words every day. Same should be said about the touches between a H and his W. Am I making sense?
((hugs))
Sandi, for starters i just have to say: Wow, thanks! I really appreciate all the time and thought you put into these-- this is a lot of stuff. You have really stuck with me through all my ups and downs, and I thank you for that. Even when things aren't going "well" here, this board is a bit of a refuge.
Does she do things for you, like take you a cup of coffe, fix your favorite meal, run errands for you, take care of certain jobs instead of expecting you to do it.......like having the car washed, mowing the yard, etc. Does she show genuine interest when you are talking......by nodding her head and asking questions?
Yes. We each tend to do work in "spurts" around here, but we both do our share. More and more we have even been doing things together-- cleaning out garage, etc. As for doing things "for" me, you know, i hadn't really thought about it until you posted it but, yes... yes she does. I just haven't been taking too much notice of it because i am so (perhaps excessively) focused on the "big picture". She will bring me drinks, make things i like for meals, ask me about particular issues she knows i am working on at work. Makes it a point to wear the pretty things i got her at christmas (jewelry, scarf). She is pretty engaged in our conversations, and we go back and forth as you indicate, asking each other questions, etc.
Does she show you as much consideration as she would give a co-worker, neighbor, or a new acquaintance?
This is a bit tricky-- and this is one of the things i would always "Throw back at her" during the bad old years-- and it is or at least was kind of true-- back then she was always more prone to yelling or name-calling at me and the kids than she would have been to coworkers or even strangers. Now, she wasn't always like this, and this is one of the dynamics that sort of slowly developed, i believe, on about the same timeline as my distance and neglect (not excusing either one or the other-- just noting that the deterioration was on multiple fronts and over period of time and from both sides.) More recently, she has been much much much more civil in her interactions with me and kids, and certainly she is much more loving with the kids now than she has been since they were little. As to consideration towards me? Hmmmm. She does not any longer offer any signs of disrespect towards me, but, well... I will say that in terms of day-to-day consideration and politeness and demeanor she gives me as much as coworkers/friends. However, in terms of intimacy/touch, she still holds back more. I have even remarked on this to her on a couple of occasions-- Once way back in June (before this current reconcilliation phase started) and she was still avoiding any touch by me and seemed borderline repulsed by it, she could have a stranger come up and put his hand on her shoulder/back and she'd be just fine with this (I saw this happen once on our June family vacation and remarked to her on it-- she said she didn't remember) and then again at her office Christmas party where, upon leaving, she gave the male (and married) doctor who was hosting the party--and someone she considers a "friend" a noticeably "warmer" frontal hug than anything i have gotten from her recently with one or two possible, and i repeat "possible" exceptions. She said after that one she didn't think it was anything out of the ordinary, and it likely wouldn't have been... assuming she was giving her husband hugs of at least the same warmth.
Does she show you compassion when you are upset, sad, sick or injured? Does she offer encouragement when you are worried, nervous, discouraged, etc.?
Yes, and this is a change even from when she was still "in" the marriage and I was sick. My illness, coinciding as it did with the younger years of my childrens' lives, was an obvious aggravant to her, and she often showed her impatience. This was actually one of the things she apologized to me for, in some depth, near the start of our counselling. "Offering encouragement"-- kind of outside her comfort zone-- she's not a real "rah rah you can do this" type, though she did fairly good with the kids in this regard. I'd say, though, that she is at least as kind to me in that regard as she is to others.
Does she smile at you when you enter the room? Does she just give you some sign that you are important to her life?
Sometimes. She is "hot and cold", here. Sometimes she can be very engaging, smiling, high eye contact, and other times not. She does seem appreciative when i stop by her desk at work, and called me quickly to ask why I didn't stop by the one day i did not. I still do not get the "she lights up when i enter the room" thing.
She can call you during the day, just b/c she's thinking of you and wondering how your day is going.
This she does. She probably calls me two to three times as much as i dial her up, although the text imbalance is probably equally unbalanced the other way. She never says "Im just thinking of you" and she often has a pretext-- usually something about the kids-- but she has been calling me regularly two to three times during the workday ever since July/August.
There should be non-sexual touching throughout the day.......or at the least, throughout the week. She can pat you on the back, touch your shoulder, sit close to you on the couch and touch your arm occasionally. She can look lovingly into your eyes, instead of looking away or showing unconcern. She can speak in soft, sweet tones.......and of course, respectfully. She can laugh with you and show she is enjoying being with you. She should be able to show you that you matter to her.
Mixed bag, here. Hard to say she often deliberately reaches out to touch me with her hands. Once or twice, here and there, every couple of days, but she has plenty of opportunities where it would be natural where she does not. OTOH, she seems more willing WRT feet/legs. Maybe its just subconscious and she doesn't notice it as much, but she will often have her legs or feet pressed against mine when we are out, or even when we are in bed if we are not cuddled up a little closer. We do laugh and talk together and enjoy each others company. She is generally good on conversational eye contact, but IDK that i would say she's gazing "lovingly" into my eyes.
On balance, my interpretation would be that I do "matter" to her and that she, for the most part, acts accordingly. She is just far, far more interested these days in what i am doing and how I am doing and where I am than she has been at any time in, oh, many years.
But let's just say she has been showing the efforts I gave in previous examples, and now she is ready to progress a little futher. What are some things you would see? When you leave for the day, she she should be able to give you a light hug. You know, just a friendly little hug and wish you a good day. In time, this can progress to standing closer while she give the hugs, instead of keep significate space between the bodies. She can begin giving little peck kisses on the side of your face.......not getting anywhere too close to your lips. It's as if she's trying to do it quickly and move on, but it is a big step for her.
This is a tricky dynamic. Maybe i am just making too much of it and just need to be more forward, but it is clearly an awkward moment-- departure for work in the morning. As if both of us know we "should" be doing something but neither of us knowing exactly what that is, so it ends up kind of like "okay, have a great day" or "good luck with ___________" or the like, and lately I will make it a point to touch her lightly in some fashion on the arm or shoulder or low back as she is going out the door. The one day last week i actually gave her a full-on hug because she was going to be late due to a work social engagement so i hugged her and said "hey, have fun" and that didn't seem TOO awkward, but she did seem surprised.
And what some selfish people don't understand is that she has to give herself to you, in order to receive the joy and loving feelings she wants to experience.
This is one of the things i am pretty sure she is struggling with. She wants the joy and loving feelings FIRST, and thinks that that's the normal way for that to transpire... but that, IMO, is a job for her and her IC.
You say you have never been much of an initiator. Are you referring to just initiating sex, or was this in other things, too? And also, are you referring to just your W back before the wedding, or was this a general fear of rejection from other women as well? Did you have experience being rejected, other than your W?
Mostly sex, and mostly after marriage. Although i have never been as forward as the typical "alpha" male probably is. From college onward, i tended to be very "lucky" with women. I never had to put alot of effort into it. I "hooked up" a fair amount and the few "relationships" i had i just sort of tended to kind of fall into-- the girl would pursue me or we would hook up drunk at a party and things would go from there. It was all pretty low-effort casual. BUT... i was always just a wee bit hesitant about things like taking a girls hand, or putting an arm around her, unless i was in a well-established relationship (or had been drinking.) I am not "Shy" per se, but i do have a shy side to me, if that makes sense. (Whenever i take those damned Meyers Briggs tests i always come up close to 50-50 between Introvert/Extrovert) I would say i had
some typical male "fear of rejection" but nothing profound or excessive.
Things changed for me when i met my W. She was very demonstrative, very touchy-feely, and I found that i really, really liked all of that. When we were dating, W and I were constantly touching, holding hands, arms around each other, kissing. I was crazy about her. Like i'd never been about anyone. When she said after a church couples retreat that she thought we should from that point abstain until marriage, i thought i was going to pop.
After marriage, a raft of problems set in. She said she thought we should maybe try Natural Family Planning (turns out though that she wasn't as hard set on it as i thought at the time), I agreed.
We weren't very good at it. Really hurt the spontenaeity at times. Then came my illness, which i'd been experiencing rumblings with for a couple of years and which, in addition to causing my joints (all of them) to hurt with a constant burning, even stabbing pain, also caused my testosterone levels (along with my libido) to crash to very low levels. That made me not want any more kids-- I could barely even pick up the tiny infant and 1-year old we already had... let alone go throw ball with them or the like. I felt like less than half a dad and less than half a man. Then i crashed the finances in connection with the dot-com crash. She was understanding and we prayed alot about it, but that was the last straw for me. I lost any shred of confidence in myself i still had left. I withdrew...
None of it was that sudden, of course. And she was not blameless. Carrying all of the weight, doing all the physical chores, getting up in the middle of the night with the kids because i was too sick... She started becoming short with me. Resentful. Even sometimes with the kids. And all i wanted to do was feel better-- and i hyperfocused on that, thinking that if i could solve that problem, everything else would become better. We became opponents instead of partners trying to see our way out of the storm, and by the time my doctors finally began sorting out my issues... we had checked out on each other.
All of that grossly affected my confidence in reaching out to her, on any intimate level, and, ultimately, my desire for her as well. We just stopped "giving" to each other. And i realize i got off on a bit of a tangent there, but, ... yeah.
So, to clarify, does your W have a track record of rejecting you when you initiated sex?
My W does not have such a track record. She was far more the instigator, after marriage, than was I. The few times i did "throw her down" or the like, she was more than willing. In fact, the "last straw" as she would put it would be the last time we actually ML, which will be five years in the rearview mirror come August 2018. I was just on the cusp of emerging from my hell of ill-health, with some promising developments, and I had been away on a trip with S1, and she, as she said, "threw herself at me" (a fairly accurate account). She wanted an all-night experience, to be with me and all of that, and, after one time I just got up and left, went downstairs, turned on the computer. She came down in her nightie after i had been away for a few minutes, saw me sitting there, turned around and stormed back upstairs in tears. Im not even sure what the hell i was thinking. By that time, yeah, alot of damage had been done to the relationship, and, no, my libido had not yet bounced back to any degree but, in retrospect, that was an incredibly cold and insensitive way of me to behave. And things were never quite the same after that. She's right that that was probably the last straw. We had stopped saying "I love you" and kissing on the way out the door in the morning, and, within less than three years, her rings would be off... and i wouldn't even notice.
God designed the man to be the dominant gender. God designed the woman to be the submissive gender. It doesn't mean the man can't be sensitive and considerate...... or that the woman can't have the brains to run a corporation. In a man-woman intimate relationship, God intended the man to lead/dominate and woman to be submissive/respond. When those roles are reversed, there will be trouble in the MR.
This is good stuff, Sandi. Something i have been trying to restore to myself... along with self-confidence, etc. I know for a fact (because she has told me), that even aside from sexuality, that one of the things about me in the past that would turn my wife off about me is indecisiveness ("well, where do YOU want to go") or uncertainty, or having to go to her with a problem (a big one with me was always "do you know where __________ is?" or the like. I also know (again because she has told me) that "sometimes she likes it rough" and that every now and then it would be nice if i just "Threw her down and took her". (For the record, here, I did do this on a few occasions when we were dating and even once or twice early in the M) At any rate, I did do some research, reading, etc. on this, and even found what i think you were referring to WRT the "plain man's talk" on the subject. Some of what you'll find is, IMO, excessively neanderthal (and recall that at one point i WAS actually pretty successful with the opposite sex) but alot of it nonetheless rings pretty true, IMO. I had already started trying to restore some of my "swagger" through the 180s and GAL's, etc (completely stopped doing all the stuff listed above that she found unattractive) and am generally focused on reclaiming my status as a smoldering sexual cauldron. Still takes two to tango, however.
I remember when you once began feeling more confident and interested in having sex, you were eager to begin the healing process in your SSM. In fact, I couldn't help but notice that it was after your health issue was resolved that you were wanted to press your W about her committing to working on a full MR in every way, including the intimacy.
Well, not exactly. My health problems were substantially resolved and my libido returning to normal approximately 3-4 years ago. (It was not a quick fix-- I actually had a handful of intertwined and complicated things going wrong with me.) But, by that point, the damage was done. The MR was for all intents and purposes over. By the time I had taken up with OM in the spring/summer of 2016, followed closely by his starting the A with my W in, lets say, October 2016, it was a stretch to say we were even friends. In fact, i wouldn't say that we were at all. We lived separate lives, resented things about the other... i had even allowed myself to start thinking that i could be happy with someone else... if someone else came along... say, a friend of my fairly new but still very close friend "OM", who knew many younger, attractive women. At that point my W, who is a looker no question about it and can pass for a couple decades younger than her actual age, was just not attractive to me. Maybe im kind of a strange guy this way, but i have always found it hard to be sexually attracted to even a very physically attractive woman who is obnoxious or off-putting or abusive or... you get the picture. I once threw over an extremely attractive college cheerleader (actually only a few months before i met my W) for that very reason-- she was gorgeous but i just couldn't stand to be around her for even long enough to "do the deed". And I was feeling somewhat the same about my W at that point, though i still had very fond memories of who "she had been" and what we had had. And then the roof fell in. And i realized alot of what i had been feeling had come from
within me.. that while both W and i walked down that path together that, for my part, i had made a choice in some respects to push her away... to stop loving her. Only i did still care for her. And i did still love her. And the one thing i never ever in a million years dreamed i could lose... i was losing.
At any rate, my "cure", such as it was, as well as the return of my libido took place somewhat before the awakening of my desire to Reconcile with my W and, subsequently, to press her to commit to restoring our MR.
I bring that out, b/c just as your sexual health was returning back, and appeared more interested or focused on the intimacy..........so can it happen for women. I don't recall how long it had been stalled, or if there was occasional sex before your W began her EA. But I know from my own experience and from what I have gathered by studying this subject, that whenever a woman has emotionally closed her heart to her H.......she won't be interested in having sex with him. Now those with a high sex drive, may engage enough for their own sexual release......but to be emotionally engaged in making love to her H, I haven't heard where it exists in a WW. It's b/c of everything that has gone on in her mindset about her H, losing admiration for him and how it affects her desire, etc.
Again, good stuff and, based on what my W has said, definitely a big part of the way she feels. She has on more than one occasion said to me "ITs about more than just the sex..." And, interestingly, very early on in the A when i was recording her in the car i heard her tell OM-- who was trying to talk dirty with her-- pretty much the exact same thing and... in one of our counselling sessions she opened up that the one thing that really turned her head so to speak was OM "acting the gentleman" and both opening the door for her as well as helping an elderly man through the door on a very early coffee meet-up they had-- she said she want back to the car and cried for 20 minutes after that because i had not done those things for her in so long and she felt so alone because of it and also so bad that as a result she was now having feelings for someone else.
At any rate, yeah-- though she has what would probably be considered an above-average sex-drive, she wants much more than just a roll in the hay.
That's why a lonely W who has unmet emotional needs, can get hooked on romance novels and fantasize about the romantic leading man........and the end results for her is that her heart becomes closed to her H, in the same way as if she was in an actual affair with that novel's leading man. It's all in her head! Right? Right, but what is in her head, affects everything in her life! How many men do you know can read a love story and wish his W would treat him or just act like the woman in the love story. I am talking to the point that he starts giving his W the cold shoulder, and putting distance between them, etc. I have yet to hear about one man filing for D, b/c his W was nothing like the ones in romantic novels or movies.
I cant tell you how many of those novels my W read-- there are stacks and stacks and stacks of them-- starting not long after that incident where i came back from the trip and she threw herself at me. At first she'd even tell me: "You know, you should read some of these". And of course she watches Hallmark channel all the time. She definitely still has that "Fantasy story-book fairy tale" dynamic in her head. Not sure what, if anything i can do to change that-- and itll have to change at least somewhat because no man can live up to that ideal.
I have recently suggested to a couple of others to search on line about male dominance in the MR. You often ask how something would look, and I found one place about male dominance that actually broke it down into basic instructions. It uses what I call, "male language", so you guys relate. Fortunately for its readers, it doesn't take a fourth as many words as it does for women. smile
As i mentioned above, i found some good resources, thanks. And I am not completely alien to that mindset... its just been a while. I have made major strides already, i think, but more can be done.
Yes, Sandi, thanks. Though right now i am sick as a dog with a nasty, nasty chest cold-- One of the few aspects of my former illness that never went away (vulnerability to URIs). Nothing like that to bring back memories of sick, helpless hoosjim. (But I am soldiering on as best i can.)
Adding a quick addenda here because there was so much Sandi wrote and so much I had and i didn't really have time to do a good mental inventory before spewing out the post.
Coupla other things i have noticed from her in the vein of "engaging" with me, things that somehow i had sort of taken for granted:
First, she calls me on the way back from work. But not just to say she's on the way home, but to talk to me. Those spaces during the A were filled with talks with the OM-- my W doesn't appreciate a good silent car ride like i do
But... she talks to me, and gets irritated and pout-y (in a jok-ey kind of way) when i have to (or choose to- always be the one to say goodbye first!) say goodbye.
Also... she talks about future with the two of us now. She has done this a couple of times, almost in passing, and I don't think i have remarked on it here. She did it again tonight just now on her way home in the car: "We could move to _________ to be near S2 and I could get a job at __________ and you can always telework for at least half the time and we'd get in-state tuition!" Me: But then we'd lose it for S1" Her: "Oh, yeah, well, we could each live in one spot but then how would we see each other-- we'd have to rendezvous at the beach every weekend! [giggled]" Well figure it out..
Start a new thread, so I can respond.