Old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774061&page=1In the last thread Surfer was asking if I've been getting out. The answer is yes, I've been getting out and doing things on my own and with the kids. It has been very liberating but seriously saddening at times as well.
I have been having a good time with GAL but I have yet to find a way to replace that emptiness I feel every day.
Surfer is right, my emotions were attaching me back to WW. That is very concerning to me, because I have worked so hard and been through so much already that I feel like I should be way further ahead with my feelings. Alas, I am still on the rollercoaster.
I try to keep my mind occupied or keep my body active by keeping busy. It's the down time, the rest, sleeping at night, and the occasional nap when it all hits me like a nuclear bomb. Out of nowhere I will get a flood of emotions and hit rock bottom again. It is getting slightly easier, but not easy enough.
I am very outwardly detached now, however. I am doing pretty well with that part. It's the alone time that gets me. The pondering and the contemplating.
I'm not so sure time is on my side with this one.
I said kids above, but that's only partially true. She recently said I basically can't do anything with her son anymore, or even really talk to him. Heart breaking stuff.
Surfer asked how she reacted when looking down after I told her I was sure she's doing great. She stared off into space for a little bit and said nothing. I don't know what that means but I'm not going to spend more time analyzing it.
WW came back to the house to get cleaned up for another night out of the home and took her kid with her again. She was very short on words, kind of sad demeanor. Very reserved when talking to me.
I am still emotional about this but I just acted indifferent towards her while she was here. Im glad she's gone again. Having some peace is valuable to me these days. I'd like to thank everyone for having my back during my darkest days. It's very difficult being in this spot. I hate every second of it. It's like a bad dream that I can't wake up from.
Someone, I can't remember who, said this process is not linear. You will make strides for a while, and then backslide. Of course the strides get bigger, and the backslides shorter. We all do it. Don't beat yourself up.
With respect to her son, if I remember right, he's 15ish? I'd have a candid talk with him, explain that you love him, and want to spend time with him. I wouldn't throw his mother under the bus, but make sure he knows YOU are not abandoning HIM. It won't be too long before he's 18, and can spend all the time with you he wants, regardless of what his mom says.
Joe,
It takes a long time to detach. You simply can not rush it. It's like losing a close relative. You just don't get over it quickly. But you do have to find a positive way to deal with it.
Her looking sad, might be guilt or whatever. Don't read into it.
Her blocking you from her son is her cutting you out of her new life. I was blocked from her parents, family, my BIL, friends. Some come to you to help. They are truly worth having as friends etc. The rest - charlatans who can't be anything but sheep IMHO.
If you are finding these alone times hard, can you schedule time with a counsellor or friend. It seems you need to talk chap. That and do-ing and gym are great. You will find this less difficult but only time will help. Reading about this sort of thing is also very, very good. As is mindfulness. I believe between these suggestions you will find a route.
Be very careful not to become a martyr to your feelings. Be the rider not the horse my friend. This is important. Read about ID the super ego if you wish but in short. Take charge of your emotions.
There is a poem by Rumi called the Guest House which helped me understand that what you are feeling is transient. Very much so. It helps to get this.
It's no more than a headache or a hangover. The feel awful, these emotions, but once gone your remember them but can't feel them. They will go. Surprisingly quickly. They will return though. That's why Rumi's words are great.
Remember, the foundation of these feelings is grief. It hits you like a tsunami first time. Then crashing waves, they never stop. Soon the waves are less intense. Perhaps further apart. You can breathe. Then, in time, shall, infrequent, then silence. They will hit you every now and then, out of the blue and hard. Then go.
Read Rumi.
Take care. Remember many have been there. You will not drown. You will learn to be the most capable swimmer. Like a Jedi in Speado's - keep that chin up.....
Surfer.
Yeah, I have had those discussions with him multiple times since BD. He knows.
He's not happy with how things are but he's coping as best he can. Unfortunately his mother is a WW and he can't understand all the decisions that she is making.
I just read The Guest House. That was incredibly insightful. I need to stop being afraid of my feelings and just ride them out.
Joe
Just talk to them about things if the raise anything. They will tend to at bed time or if you are alone. Listen and talk. Reassure never raise anything. Over time they will reveal that they knew that you were the rock. Trust me, they will. mum is always mum and you must never throw her under the bus - a train perhaps, but never a bus. Sorry. You do have to find some fun at times.
BTW can you do a summary sitch footer please? It helps others helping to focus on your specific ages, dates, kids details etc.
Thank you.
Surfer.
Yes. Not bad for a 13th-century Persian Sunni Muslim.
When my daughter, at the time 6.5/7 yrs was scared and didn’t know what to think due to mummy’s shouting at night (rage) I carefully explained how emotions are transient and even the sad ones are like friends. Some are more of a pain in the ass than others however. She got it and slept. After this I instigated Surfers plan to avoid rage flash points. Bed soon after kids, up run and NC during the day and night if possible. It worked.
I know I keep telling you all will be well but at some point you will need to take charge and say ‘fcuk it, time to get a plan’. The alternative is let her pull your strings and get in your head.
Surfer.
Well, the plan really is just NC and limited NC at home. I can't avoid her but I can make each contact brief. I am staying in the MH and the MBR permanently. I am going to be here to make sure I don't enable WW behavior at my home, as WW has lied about doing several times.
Escape plan is grab a blanket and lock myself inside bathroom. I'll be able to take a nap if I have to. Hah.
That’s the spirit. Joe. Find some humour in the darkness always.
Now you stick to the plan and give zero fcuks about what she says or does. If you had a friend like this you would drop the rope. Do it and focus on you and the kids. Full stop.
You have the plan and all the tools.
You just need to do the right thing your by hour. If you mess up the 2pm slot. There’s always the 3pm! Soon you will be working on half day slots, week slots etc.
Keep strong. You are doing this. Just implement the skills you are learning. If it goes wrong, V, Joe, others and myself will help you correct the course.
Surfer.
I will post any plans here first to get input from everyone here. I have to say, this is the most valuable resource I've ever found in my life. This place really is all about life change.
I have never felt so welcomed by a group of strangers before. I have been pulled back from the ledge by you all numerous times. It's going to be a rough ride, but I know I can make it now.
I've learned how to detach. I've learned how to spot the manipulation and gaslighting. I know how the WW will project their feelings to the point they are giving you their game plan. I know they lie like crazy. I've learned to be cautious. It's like you guys know my WW's playbook. The WW script. Strange how it's so universal.
I can't thank you enough.
Dude....this board is the single reason why I feel as good as I do today. Reading and speaking with people that have gone through this and getting their feedback while learning and growing has definately put me in the best position to succeed whether or not my W comes back or not. Truthfully, for me, this was better than therapy. Everyone knows what you are going through, is willing to pay it forward and has advice that I never would have recieved anywhere else. All of us going through these horrible situations are lucky!
Joe,
It is strange isn’t it - that universal behaviour? No matter what nationality, religion, language, sex, location etc on this planet they (WS) all follow a very similar script. I find comfort in that personally. It means we are dealing with ‘typical’ behaviour.
Psychological patterns are comforting, even if disturbing. It means you can adapt to them. Change.
That is DB. It is also, the far extreme, where you need to just survive minute to minute or day to day (when terrified). It then becomes easier. You adapt.
You will be fine. Just change. It is your new plan. For now.
Surfer.
Today WW came back to the MH and was being nasty and demanding. She wants a schedule from me or something like that so she can "plan her day" or whatever.
I have just been staying away from her as much as possible. This is pretty difficult because of how mean she's being to me in front of the kids. She is blatantly dumping all of her negative emotions towards me.
It takes all of my concentration to stay alert. It is like an emotional war zone. If I don't stay alert then she will take advantage.
Yes
That's interesting she demands a schedule. She can plan her day anyway.
Since she ceased to be your W, your schedule is your business and hers is hers.
Quietly skirt the question.
Let me describe a technique called fogging to you.
Fogging is the art of saying something whilst not really saying anything.
Vis
"That's an interesting idea, I will think on it " (for a sec)
"There may be something in what you say" (but probably not)
"Mmmm, must put some thought into that" (in 2030)
"Interesting, hold that thought" (but I wont)
"It's a possibility" (or not)
"That did occur to me" (but I dismissed it instantly)
"Matches your eyes" (blood shot and staring)
"Great colour on you" (covers up the sick)
"I may plan for that" (likely not)
"I was going to consider my options" (not yours)
"I believe I am busy that night" (My GAL not yours)
"I have some admin to sort on it" (like the Forth Bridge)
"My schedules are up in the air and ever changing" (and even if they weren't I would tell you)
---------------------------------
Now there is deflection
"So you have plans today?"
When she says that's her business
Response is "precisely"
And dodge
---------------------------------
You can turn this into a purpose tactic and observe.
You are doing great.
V
Great tips V. Thank you. I have walked away from several conversations already that she turned into arguments. I am going to have to really dig my heels in and double down my patience and DB efforts.
This is so terrible. I'm so stressed.
It does get easier.
Try reframing this Joe, saying the better the boundaries, the calmer I am, the easier it is to manage my situation. The more stable an environment that I create for the children and for WW to come to her senses.
V
Yes, calm and collected is key! She rages and rants, and the kids can usually hear it all. They know who is doing the yelling, and it's not me.
I just wish I had some kind of timeframe to look forward to. Like, the typical amount of time a WS will spend blaming the LBS for all their problems. It's been a month of me being the source of all her problems and it's getting old. Forgot her password? Oh it was me. Can't find her keys? Oh I must've hid them. Blah blah blah.
Just remember:
Tidy your closet
Don't serve the wrong pasta
Don't put dirty dishes in the dishwasher
Buy apple not orange juice
Get the right bacon
Don't be too short or too tall
Never run out of milk
Put the toilet seat up or down
Don't go out but if you do don't stay in
Always use aftershave or don't every alternate Monday
Do the shopping on Monday unless of course it's Monday in which case it's shopping on any other day
Watch TV but then again record it
Take a shower or then again do so at the gym
All of these are your fault unless of course they are mine
I am also responsible for the world economy, pollution, Donald Trump being elected, his overeating, his gambling (I didn't stop him), his poor golf performance, his bald tyres (bald head?), failing to buy the right house 20 years before I met him......
I am going to be responsible for his split with OW, not enough settlement..........
It's absolutely script and actually some of it has its black humour side, eventually that will strike you too
V
Oh and record the lunacy.
V
So in other words this is just the way it's gonna be now. Lol
V how I have missed your posts ...you are so right tho lol
Joe you will not know me but I can tell you for sure it does get easier I promise you that ....
It is going to challnage you test you but you will come through this a much better and happier person it may take a week a month a year or two but you will get through this.
Become the best person you can be ...for you and only for you
Nothing you do or say to her right now will make a difference so focus on Joe
Do not worry about a time line ...focus only on today
Take care
Ghost
One day at a time huh? It's tough. I'm trying to be patient, and it depends on the day how I am feeling. The mood swings are terrible. I feel like a crazy person on many days, but I keep it together on the outside.
Earlier WW wanted to talk so, I did with boundaries in place. Whenever one was violated the course was corrected immediately. The point of the conversation was basically: "Joe2017... Why the fcuk are you NOW the person I wanted you to be before I filed for divorce?!!?!" Lots of tears, etc. She said that I appear to be doing just fine without her now. I didn't do any pursuit behavior, I just said yeah I'm moving on. More tears, and then she left the room.
And I guess I am sort of ok in this moment. Ask me how I'm feeling tomorrow though, and you may get a different story. Lol
Paitence paitence then more paitence ....
From what you post she needs time to work things out but it sounds line you grasped this way faster than I ever did and with this in mind
Keep the R talks to a minimum
Work on being the best you
Make the change permanent but ultimately do it for you
You can do this
ATP:
Yeah, patience. Well, no matter what she says to me I don't believe anything has or will change regarding our sitch. I just need to move on as best I can because my MR is over. It's done. My W is gone. WW took over. It's through. Everything out of her mouth is a lie.
I just have to keep my head up and keep working on myself. I've been making some strides. I'm getting healthier and by most external accounts I'm doing well. I've been independently social. It's been really tough, but in doing my best. But if you read my history I've had some really tough tough days.
Oh well. Like you said, one day at a time.
Joe, you are doing AWESOME and are stronger than you realize. IMO controlling your anger and emotions has been your strongest action. Let her spin you The Rock of Gibraltar!
Yes, 1 minute, 1 hour, 1 day at a time!
Exactly Joe9
1 min - 1 day. You already in this bracket.
Soon it will be 1 day - 1 week
Etc
Kids will know it’s her. Mine was exactly the same. Try limiting her exposure to you in this way to when kids are asleep. If she is not productive, grab that glass of water and get to bed! Or have a soak. Whatever.
You are getting this much faster and are more capable than I was. Keep going chap!
Also you will miss physical touch. You can help to clam your insecurities the you would normally get from a hug or reassuring hand on your arm (from your W). Y making sure you give the kids lots of cuddles. They will need this too!!
Your kids will be fine if you protect them. And they will not forget this. I promise you. You will become a serious hero in their eyes.
Just keep finding space for you when it gets hard. Read, mindfulness, gym, run, soak whatever. The time you can cope get longer. You are getting stronger all the time with this. Consequently so are your kids.
Surfer.
V’s fogging is absolutely on the nail. I learned to do this. I expect V or Sandi put me into them. Using stock phrases is good. If they work she will probably end up going even more nuts sadly. But use them to protect you and the kids.
Surfer.
So I fogged yesterday and ended up making her yell at me. It was OK, I didn't care.
So last night she initiated the R talk and just cried, and also said she was upset that I have all of the control inside the house. Said she misses talking to me. Then she said that bit about me NOW being the person she wanted BEFORE she asked for D. All she really got from me was that I'm good and I'm moving on.
Today she resumed texting me a small conversation text using the kids as loopholes. I can see this as temp checking now. I am not going to respond. I can talk to her about it when I get home if I must. Otherwise, NC and GAL.
This is so sad. Every fiber of my being wants to rescue her, but I know that it will be a complete waste of time and send her even further away from me.
Tough love. One day at a time.
Joe...you are doing great, you are a DBing prodigy!
Joe9:
Thanks for the compliment. I wish I could say it makes me feel better.
Every day I hope she comes to me with the words that mean she knows she fcked up and she is ready to work on us. So far, I've only gotten hints of the first half but none of the second half. Last night I asked her if there was anything else that she actually wanted to talk about, and she stared for a second and said no before she left the room.
Today I paid some bills and told her in an email. She responded in a snarky manner, and I think it is because I did it proactively and was in control of the transaction rather than her notifying me of a bill.
This WW is hard to deal with. It is so draining.
It took me about 1.5 months just processing what had happened and about 3 months before I felt relatively normal.
Nothing will make you feel better early on. It just takes time my man. Just take care of yourself physically, mentally and emotionally. I spent hours on this board every day reading over sitch's and advice which really helped me get my head screwed on straight. For me, it was better than my IC.
Your doing all the right things.
Joe
If you hadn't fogged it would have been rage instead
V
I brought some dinner home for the kids after work, just fun drive thru stuff for them to eat. Brought plenty and both S14 and S16 chowed down. I made sure they were good to go and OK, and I went out to run some errands before WW got home. Hopefully I'd avoid her for a spell.
Later I get an angry TM about feeding WWs child, and how it should have been coordinated with her blah blah, she hates our living arrangements, etc. Anyhow, I didn't want to come back to that so I stayed out a little bit more and did some more stuff to occupy my time. Caught up with an old friend, it was fun.
Came back home with plenty of time to tuck the kids into bed and wish them goodnight. WW was not home. S16 tells me he got interrogated by WW about my whereabouts and she said he was covering it up before she left. I'm sure she is going to turn this into a tit for tat thing where she comes home tomorrow morning to try to make me jealous.
Dealing with WW is so exhausting. Please pray for me. Every day is a different challenge, despite knowing the playbook and understanding that I can't understand.
Sorry you have to deal with this, but you are doing great!
At this point I'm starting to lose hope that there is anything salvageable. She is so vindictive and shows very limited remorse for her actions. She justifies everything in her own strange way.
She says she is "forced" to live here with S14, but when I suggest she move in with OM she says she has a right to live here in the MH. That's not untrue, but she should leave the home if she is leaving me and S16. I'm tired of her trying to cake eat and then getting mad when she doesn't get her way. She got mad at me for feeding S14 yesterday and then asked me for lunch money for him. WW makes no sense.
The fog is very thick with her and I am losing hope that it will lift anytime soon. I can't do anything about the fog can I?
It's very detrimental to my personal health, too. The stress is stacking on. Going to the gym today.
Prayers appreciated.
Wow, why am I still on this rollercoaster? I'm spinning again.
I'm so immensely sad right now and I am fighting this depression. I've been doing so well lately and now I just want to crawl in hole and die. I just want the pain to stop. And there's nothing that helps. Nothing. I know everyone says that this is just normal response to grief and loss. I just want my wife back. I want my best friend back. I want my kid's mom back. I want my life back.
I'm so devastated. DB is so hard.
Joe, hang in there. Take it a day at a time. Your sitch is very, very new and fresh still. The reason you are still struggling is because you are right in the middle of the worst part of it. Time will make all things better, but we are all very impatient when we go through this and we just want the pain to end NOW. It will end, but it takes a while. I think it was Surfer that mentioned earlier that it's like dealing with the grief of losing a loved one, this is something I thought about a lot after BD and I believe it is WORSE than losing a loved one. When a loved one passes away we can think happy thoughts about them and eventually let them go. But when a loved one goes rogue WAS, we are caught in a whirlpool of emotions because we don't know if they are gone for good, or gone for a while, are mentally ill or just don't like us anymore, are done or are going to "snap out of it". It will absolutely wear you out trying to figure out why it happened and trying to read the crystal ball to see what will happen.
So how do you deal with all of that ^^^ It's what we're always preaching here, get out, GAL. Reconnect with old friends. Make new friends. Get off your W's roller coaster. Detach. Why does this work? Because it takes your mind off your sitch and changes your focus. It's not a switch you flip, it happens over time. At first you have to force yourself to GAL because all you want to do is go home and curl up in a ball and weep. MAKE YOURSELF DO IT!!! You'll very likely get no pleasure out of GAL to begin with, and your mind will still constantly return to your W. But over time you think less about her and more about your new life.
You're barely 2 months post BD. You need to give yourself at least another 4 to start feeling normal, and to be frank it's going to be at least 8 months before you feel well and truly detached.
Until then just keep journaling here, and remember, we HAVE been through what you're going through, so try and take some comfort from that. I did it, and I do NOT have any special strength or power that you don't. I came out of it a better, stronger, happier person. You will too! Make time your friend.
I'm sorry, Joe.
Nothing you do will make your W happy right now. The only emotion she can show you is anger. I know it can be hard, but you should try not to let her moods get to you. That's easier said than done, and it will take time. It's something I still struggle with in my sitch, so be sure to give yourself a pat on the back for every baby step you take.
The fog has come down hard on her and there really is nothing you can do about it. Don't try to guess what she's thinking our going through - it will only bring you down. Focus on yourself and the kids, and GAL.
You can do this!
Thanks guys. The thing is, I KNOW all of this. I mean, I know it. I see it. I see what she's doing I know what she's doing and I know that she is completely lost in her fog. I know the plays and the responses. I know the fog will probably lift one day.
I know it's early on. I just can't seem to make these feelings go away. It's killing me little by little, day by day.
I have my tactics down pretty well. I have my head on straight. I have all of you. I have the tools.
My heart is just making this difficult.
Joe,
Lean into the pain. You have to feel it to heal it.
I promise you the worst is behind you. It will get easier and you will be happy again!
Joe
‘Crawl in a hole’? I get it. But ‘SHE’ is making you feel that.
I have a friend from Texas. A pal from university in England. He would use the phrase ‘pussy whipped’ (his Texan phrase not mine). Does she control you?
People only treat you how you allow them to treat you.
Boundaries son. Boundaries.
I keep vigil for you but help yourself. Man up as much as you can my friend. No excuses.
Surfer.
I'm just having a weak day. I don't know why. It doesn't make any sense. However, I noticed that when I'm going through this I come here to get it out and obviously I get a dose of of reality from you all too.
I can't be this way at home in front of kids or WW. For them I am strong.
I'm not really this weak. I need to stop.
I cannot imagine what it would be like to deal with a WAW on a regular basis. In my situation we've had 6 months of NC and thus I have been able to GAL a lot easier. I think if you are facing her regularly she will suck the life out of you because you're constantly confronted with her anger and clouded mind.
I think if you are facing her regularly she will suck the life out of you because you're constantly confronted with her anger and clouded mind.
I can personally confirm that's 100% true.
My confidence was just shot to hell this morning. I seem to do better when I am in the moment and I'm concentrating all of my focus on DB or some other important task.
It's infuriating to know that I don't have control over my mood swings. I'm trying to accept the feelings with open arms but today it was just ever so slightly different. This wave had an edge to it I haven't encountered yet. Just enough to put me over the edge.
I'm sorry guys.
No need to apologize. These things have happened to all of us. The pain is so intense, and you want it to go away. It will in time. Give yourself that time and don't beat yourself up for being on the roller coaster.
My confidence was just shot to hell this morning. I seem to do better when I am in the moment and I'm concentrating all of my focus on DB or some other important task.
Or you could go work out, nothing better than blowing off this energy working out. Live your life!
Thank you everyone.
The mind movies and self doubt are getting to me. I'm just not able to turn it off sometimes. I get that this is all in my own head.
I meant to go work out today at lunch but I ended up getting distracted with some actual work. I was able to get my mind off things for a little while and did about an hour of walking while I was on a site survey.
I feel better now. At least I didn't backslide any today, but the night is young. I'm hoping that I can avoid WW again tonight.
Joe my friend
You are stronger than you know it is hard changing your life especially when you have little to no control over this I can truly tell you from personal experience here and many many times I just did not get it ...I thought I did but I wa consumed by grief wrapped in the situation so tightly noting was ever heard but you will come through this and you will feel happy again
You will have days where you just want to give up don't forget we have all been there and many are still working at it.
How long this takes you is up to you ...the sooner you turn the corner the quicker you wil heal
I thought I would never get to where I am now .....you control your thoughts and it is your thoughts that create your feelings
Take care my friend my thoughts and prayers are with you
Ghost
The mind movies and self doubt are getting to me. I'm just not able to turn it off sometimes. I get that this is all in my own head.
Don't beat yourself up. It's ok, you're human, you're hurt, and you need time to heal. That's gong to take time, you're going to have setbacks, good days, and bad days. Remember that there's nothing wrong with feeling the way you do.
I lived with my WAW for a while after she filed. It's so hard seeing them day to day. When there is physical distance, it will be easier to get emotional distance, too.
Hang in there.
Last night I returned to the home at an unexpectedly late time. I was expecting WW to be in the MBR, trying to reclaim it but she was not. She was in her usual spot and WW was on the phone with OM. Talking loud and obviously trying to make it a point for me to hear her. That is crappy because it means it's loud enough for the kids to hear too.
The in house S is starting to really get to me. It is incredibly difficult for me to get any peace of mind for myself or the kids. She is constantly trying to make it clear that I have to leave her son alone and I am not to be called "dad" by S14 anymore. She feeds S14 separate from S16. She will do everything possible to make it uncomfortable for us and to make the two kids feel like there should be separation between them.
Her actions are seriously detrimental to the kids, but she blames ME for this! Because I'm "trapping" her here by not moving MYSELF out of the MH. It is so awful for everyone. I know for a fact that the kids know I am not the instigator. It does not make things alright, though.
I'm about one month away from the point where litigation can start. I'm still awaiting the next round of paperwork from her attorney (even though she keeps saying it's on my attorney).
I am thinking of just moving out and getting an apartment, just to get some peace for myself and S16. The other day she interrogated S16 about my location and accused him of hiding my whereabouts from her.
I know this goes against DBing. I am trying to see if I can wait this out and make her be the one to make they decision to move out. But the fog is thick, and she is stubborn. My attorney did not say that I could get any kind of paperwork to force her out of the MH.
I'm stuck in a holding pattern. I know V advocated for an OOP, but the way it works is that WW will have to be served paperwork to show up in court to defend the OOP. I think it would really stir the pot too much?
I know this whole idea goes against DBing, and my emotions have been clouding my judgement lately. If I am off base please help me get back on track.
I think it would really stir the pot too much?
Joe2017,
What's wrong with stirring the pot? The likelihood that you'll make things worse is slim. In fact, you'll probably feel empowered.
In DB parlance you could claim that it's a 180, if that makes you feel any better.
I guess you're right.
One thing have noticed recently is that the more DB things I apply the closer she moves towards OM. For instance, whenever I become unavailable she calls OM and talks loudly.
It is very frustrating because it is in my face. It won't go away. She throws OM in my face whenever she feels like she's losing her grasp on me.
It is very frustrating because it is in my face. It won't go away. She throws OM in my face whenever she feels like she's losing her grasp on me.
Joe2017,
Would your wife put up with that kind of behavior from you? If not, then how would she respond? Do whatever it is she'd do in the same situation. You can take this by the balls or you can sit around and wallow in your frustration. Your choice.
She would confront me and cause a scene. I not sure how that is appropriate for the environment. Maybe it would be better to address it in private? I also do not want her to know that it annoys me because that is pursuit: choose me over him.
She would confront me and cause a scene. I not sure how that is appropriate for the environment. Maybe it would be better to address it in private? I also do not want her to know that it annoys me because that is pursuit: choose me over him.
If I were in that situation, she'd not only know it annoys me, she'd know that if she did it again she'd get a tiny clue of what h3ll will be like when she eventually gets there. I can assure you, it wouldn't be mistaken for pursuit.
I am thinking of just moving out and getting an apartment, just to get some peace for myself and S16. The other day she interrogated S16 about my location and accused him of hiding my whereabouts from her.
I know this goes against DBing.
Do you have trouble doing anything else that goes against DBing?
I guess I am just trying to implement things the way they have been laid out in this community. I see the reasons for them and I can understand that they are designed as specific responses to certain situations.
Well, when it comes to her showing favoritism in the kids, to the point of not feeding them at the same time and not allowing S14 call you Dad.......that would help me make up my mind. But, that's just me. This was two families that joined. You have to protect your son's mental & emotional health....as well as your own.
I have a friend from Texas. A pal from university in England. He would use the phrase ‘pussy whipped’ (his Texan phrase not mine).
I am Texan born and raised, and I have never considered until reading this that this phrase is unique to Texas, LOL! I thought it was universal
I'm not really this weak. I need to stop.
Joe, have you read the Happiness Trap? If not, I highly recommend it. Showing grief IS NOT weakness. Feeling grief, showing it and owning it is the opposite of weakness, it is POWER. Grief and sadness are emotions, we wrongly assign "positive" and "negative" values to emotions when instead we should accept that ALL emotions have purpose and ALL are part of our lives. They are not good or bad, they just "are". We need to own them and experience them rather than trying to bury them. When you see an adult (man or woman) cry do you think "oh man how weak is that" or do you feel empathy towards them? When people show vulnerability we actually feel closer to them.
For the record, after BD I cried all the way to work and all the way home, and I have a 30-40 minute commute. Day after day after day. A lot of times even after I got home I would go in the room and cry some more. I was raised to believe crying was wrong and being a wussy, I could have counted on one hand the number of times I had cried from being a teen to BD. But man after BD I made up for lost time. Am I embarrassed about it? Do I feel weak? Absolutely not, it was cathartic. Being sad and lonely and hurt and upset is not a sign of weakness. You are not weak, if you were you would be curled up in a ball somewhere instead of here laying your soul bare with us. You are strong.
Joe
Please can you reread DB and DR. Get Sandi guidance (37) print them off and carry them with you.
The whole purpose of this is so that you make yourself the focus, your growth, your health, your GAL, your detachment.
Everything you do is about you making yourself visible as the wonderful human being, husband and father you are.
Currently you look at everything through how it affects WW and whether it brings her closer or towards OM. If it wasn't this OM then it would be a different one.
Detachment means fine if your R, fine if you don't. DB is strong because you become a winner either way. You connect with yourself, your children (both) and the world in the best way you can.
Currently you are like a water skier being pulled by WW power boat. That power boat is out of control and you are hanging on for dear life. That power boat is one minute heading for the rocks, the next the shore, the next out to sea. Soon it will crash......
It is much stronger to be you, to be the lighthouse. To be not driven around or dragged around emotionally. My view is that by leaving you are getting peace although WW has control. And naturally you can have control of yourself.
Your WW may leave OM1 for OM2 or OM3.
Detach Joe, let go of the rope that ties you to WW speedboat.
V
Being sad and lonely and hurt and upset is not a sign of weakness. You are not weak, if you were you would be curled up in a ball somewhere instead of here laying your soul bare with us. You are strong.
Dammit AS, you just made me cry. And it had been a few weeks now, too. I feel like such a wuss...
JOe, this is such a horrible awful hostile situation not only for you, but for those poor boys. I would get out and not worry about if is against DB. Your situation is abusive to you and both kids.
As I understand it, that would mean leaving s15 behind with his wayward momma.
V
AS:
That was really really great to read. I actually went to a D recovery class earlier today and they talked about emotional relapses. I think that's pretty much what happened to me. I did really well up to a point and some trigger set me off falling back down the tunnel. I have since picked myself up and started walking back out. You're right about the + / - attributes we give our emotions. I am expressing myself here openly because it allows me to work through the noise in my head, and it also helps me be strong in my home and at my job. I am going to be OK and I'm going to make my life better.
Sandi:
I hear you, loud and clear. Each day I am pushed away from WW by her actions. I know this is WW and not W. But I can't hold onto W. She won't be coming back. She's deeply set in her wayward ways. I had never been abused by W before, but for WW it's a daily occurrence.
V:
I'm doing my best to detach, but sometimes it is a moment by moment thing for me. I've been consistent with active DB during interactions with WW. I'm getting decent at technique but I need more work on the foundations of detachment. I'm very outwardly detached, but internally I think I'm holding onto a glimmer of hope that W will fight through the fog and come back. I have been focused on that too much. You are right. I am going to read the lighthouse again. I read Sandi's rules often, but I will do better. I do think moving out is on the table for me. I'll have to give it more thought.
Ginger:
You are right, it is abusive here. I am considering my options right now. It will be difficult getting an apartment, but may just be worth it. I'm also well aware of the reasons to stay in the MH.
Thank you, everyone. Earlier I saw S16 give S14 the biggest hug ever and it reminded me of why I stayed in the MH to begin with. I'm so proud of my boys. They both deserve much better than this sitch. Even if tomorrow is my last day in MH, that hug between my sons makes me think that these struggles have been worth it.
Get the strengh from your kids Joe. Stand in there!
(((Joe)))
Your relapse is largely lack of detachment.
You have the greatest opportunity for growth during these tough times.
We ALL relapse, gracious if you read my threads you will read some real awful relapses. In one of them I fell to pieces in a supermarket, very public.
You are doing great.
V
Thanks neffer and V.
I am trying my best to detatch, but there is no quick way to do this. Externally, I have been good with the "as if" but internally I am still emotionally attached in some subtle ways.
Usually I feel pretty good about it and something (not sure what) triggers me and draws me back in. Then I get to rehash it all over. It's a terrible cycle that I'm trying my best to break.
I have been GAL, I have done 180s. I am doing great at work and I'm doing a good job as a father. I just don't seem to be able to drop the last few strands of this rope. I guess there's no magic trick to it.
J.....from my experience detaching is a process. It takes time. I still constantly question myself and if what I am doing is following DB principals. Am I being too nice, are my motivations pure in being true to who I am as a person or are they driven by my W. Like yourself I adopted the DB principals very early on but internally I struggled every day. It is normal. 7 months later I am still a work in progress but my emotions are even keel. No still get sad from time to time but not nearly on the spectrum I was before.
It will get better.....you really are doing great.
Hi Joe, I can only sympathize. It would be so great if anything could take away the pain forever.
WW is constantly picking fights with me. I wish I could do something, anything, to get the aggression to stop. It's not anything I'm doing by choice. She is just attacking me for anything she can.
Everything from sharing a bathroom to a home repair has to be a complete conflict with her. It is so draining. It makes me want to quit this right now. I'm worth more than being her whipping post.
I don't know if it is worth having a conversation with her or not. I don't want to pick a fight but I can't keep living like this. I know 100% that her response will be that I'm the one to blame for everything, and the answer is for me to move out.
Goodness. All I want to do is say, please stop abusing me for no reason. Just stop. But that will get me nowhere. I'm living in the MH for logistics and legal reasons but I don't even know if it is worth it. She is starting fights with me within the first 30 minutes of every day. It is exhausting. I just DB and stop conversation when a boundary is crossed. It is still incredibly stressful. I feel like I'm in a war zone all the time.
Actually, war zones are less stressful than this! People actually trying to kill me was easier to deal with than a vindictive WW!!! This is awful.
One day at a time. It's going to be OK. I gotta just keep DB and focus on me.
Nicole:
You are going to be OK too. We both are.
WW is constantly picking fights with me. I wish I could do something, anything, to get the aggression to stop. It's not anything I'm doing by choice. She is just attacking me for anything she can.
Joe, that does sound like absolute torture. It sounds like she's trying to force you out of the house, or marriage, or both. She's trying to make you do the hard work she doesn't want to be bothered with. I suspect that if you're able to turn the other cheek and let it roll off of you that eventually she'll see it's not working and will give up the pestering. Maybe start wearing headphones around the house and sing to yourself? Just try to detach as much as humanly possible while still under the same roof.
Yes
I went through this Joe, and after I left it got worse...........
It's control tactics.
In the end I moved back in and went 'whatever'. WH got fed up, said he was leaving and I called his bluff.
He left and I put his stuff in storage. The raging continues to this day. Nothing I can do to stop it.
That's the way it is with these entitled waywards.
I am so sorry you have this too. Leaving or being apart doesn't actual make it easier. In fact it makes it harder to track. Yes I used headphones and during peak rage times I dodged.
V
Joe, I understand you well. I was a US government contractor in Iraq and Afghanistan during the worst, most violent times. Bullets flying by, mortars landing on a daily basis, car bombs left and right, shady characters following our car - I never, ever felt as bad as I do now that my husband is gone.
AS:
I am pretty certain that her agenda is based upon her forcing me out of the house. As far as D goes, we all know that eventually, no matter what, a D will happen. It will. This is her controlling me and trying to get me to move out. Which is messed up since she is the one who should go, by all accounts.
V:
I am very sorry you're still dealing with that. That is a long time for a WS to hold a grudge. I think that eventually my WW will run out of energy to fight me. I think that a lot of her aggression and tactics are to push me out of the house, because I remind her of what she has done and is continuing to do to our family. She has tried to shut me off from S14, but she will make "parenting" gestures towards my S16. The mind games V. The mind games! Why!? Frustrating.
Nicole:
You are right, it [censored] that your husband is not there. But, he isn't there. Not that this makes you feel better, but it could be worse. He could be there every day making your life stressful, like my WS is every day. You need support. Find a divorce support group at a local church. Attend and meet people who understand you. It will be good just to talk about stuff. That's also GAL and making yourself better. We have to heal to move on. And we have to move on to feel alive again.
Yesterday I decided that I would give WW a scheduled time to use the MBR bath in the morning to alleviate some logistic headaches. The conversation started out civil but once she got "her way" she became aggressive and mean. I have lately eased on the NC and will initiate business conversations to try to ease tensions. It has not made any difference really. Just trying to lighten the stress, but to no avail.
But one thing did strike me. She looks bad. Physically bad, like her eyes are sunken in and she seems exhausted. I wish I could help her, or tell her she needs to rest or eat. But she would only get mad at me for saying something. Everything turns into her accosting me.
For instance, I was putting away dishes and she got mad because I was in "her space" downstairs and taking up too much time. Anyhow.
So two things are on my mind: I have to fully let go and I have to be the lighthouse.
Letting Go:
Letting go is so hard when I love her so much (or what I knew as her). Maybe I'm choosing not to be "in love" with her now, but I do still love her. I am ready to sign the D agreement if it ever comes. I realize that WW has eclipsed my wife. Letting go is hard but necessary. Tough but I'm doing my best to let the process occur. I know it takes time, and time is not on my side. It is what it is.
The Lighthouse:
I know the road home has to be paved and smooth. I know that I have to let her know I am here for her and S14. I am just not sure how to do this without seeming weak or without making her feel like I am pursuing her. I have been hard nosed NC, and I have made it clear that I "dumped her". WW has expressed that she harbors resentment from the "dumping" but she shows no signs of being remotely close to finishing her fog. Her BFF is keeping her head in the fog clouds. I will never be given any consideration under those circumstances, as long as her BFF is living vicariously through my wife.
So how do I become the lighthouse? That is a tough puzzle to figure out.
Joe,
The best way to become the Lighthouse is to start making a great life for you and your son. What kind of man do you want to be? Instead of worrying about who dumped who????? Start mapping out a awesome life for yourself. Then maybe someday down the road (years most likely) she may want to join you.
Dude I know it sux but you just started this journey and is likely to go on for a very long time. Now you can wallow around and feel sorry for yourself or you can roll up your sleeves and start doing the hard work.
What's it going to be Joe?
So lighthouse is detatch, DB, 180, and GAL?
OK, I can do that. Been doing that pretty well, all things considered. Now I am not going to go out partying like WW but I am:
Excelling at work
Dressing well
Grooming well
Wearing nice cologne
Carrying myself with more confidence
Working out, dieting, toning up, and losing weight (38 lbs!)
Keeping my car nice and shiny
Taking a karate class
Involved more in church
Volunteering with S16
Going to the movies
Going to sporting events and other venues
Socializing with more people
Reconnecting with old friends
Attending divorce counseling classes
I've had women express interest in me but I am not ready for it yet.
The real obstacle here is the in-house S. She will not leave the MH and she is like a mosquito constantly biting me whenever I'm around her.
I find myself considering moving out more and more, even though ultimately it means caving in to WWs abuse strategy.
ok Joe. The abuse that you are receiving in the house is so bad that you are considering moving out but yet you still want to be with your W.
Something is not jiving. Are you seeing an IC?
Yeah you know I think about that a lot.
The abuse REALLY only started when she became WW. It is absolutely a new thing. I think in some ways I am still in shock. Obviously I'm not making excuses for her but wow was this abusive behavior unexpected.
You're right, this is a very fresh sitch, only about 2 months since BD. I'm expecting too much too soon. I think in my mind I was waiting for the D agreement to show up so I could sign it and move out.
Maybe I need to do that in reverse order.
I find myself considering moving out more and more, even though ultimately it means caving in to WWs abuse strategy.
Do you mean that she is abusing you simply to force you out, or do you mean she will win? When did the abuse began?
As I've previously said, what the kids are seeing and experiencing at the hands of your W, should be the deciding factor. How is it teaching them to be strong men if they see you being abused by your WW?
Maybe you need to find Vanilla's thread on abuse.
Sandi:
I've been in V's thread. V will also say that she lost a lot of ground by being the one who moved out of the MH.
Yes, I believe the abuse is partially to make me want to leave because I refuse to schedule sharing the MBR, an idea she won't let go of. I think it is also her scapegoating me for her own situation and/or indiscretions.
However on weekends, she has been leaving the MH and going elsewhere with S14. I don't know how long this can last. It's certainly not a sustainable environment.
You have to realise that in the mind of WW she is consumed with anger so she is going to find any possible thing (however tiny) in order to pick a fight with you.
Sandi:
Sorry I missed your question. The abuse began basically the moment she filed for D.
This isn't anger but manipulation.
It is a tactic, and I think it's done with a cold heart.
Blue anger with venom.
There isn't any fog in that brain.
Just scrambled eggs.
V
Well. I guess no sense in trying to wait around for the fog to lift.
Looks like I will be moving out soon.
At least I will be free of the abuse.
Hi Joe, the only answer I can think of to becoming the lighthouse might going to church or to whatever worship place appeals to you and try to practice the characteristics of that faith with the support of a pastor or priest or whoever is the leader. Pray for you wife, pray together with your kids, let your wife see you becoming more humble, forgiving, and reflective about life. For yourself doing that might help to bring some peace to your heart.
I also relate to the abuse part. That was not my husband before. My 'real' husband was so kind and would take blame for everything just to make me feel good. The new version of my husband is angry and abusive and negligent. If only there were a recipe to bring them back before it's too late. I wish your wife could see herself as a third person. I bet she'd be appalled.
Thanks Nicole. I am so heartbroken for the both of us. Our spouses used to be so great, and now they are different people.
I hate that moving us out of the MH will give WW a victory and make me less masculine to her and my boys. Unfortunately she does not see me as anything but a scapegoat and a target for gaslighting now, anyhow. As far as S16, I have plenty of time to make up for it. He already carries himself as a strong young man, so he will be OK. S14 will get brainwashed to hate me by WW. I have sown and planted the seeds, I just hope they take root and grow when he is ready.
Today I figured out what I am so deathly afraid of. I am horribly scared of being alone. It scares me so much. Yeah, I know I'm not ALONE with my boy. But my future was planned out as a family. Now it will just be the two of us. I have no backup in life anymore. I had become so trusting of my wife that I was left completely vulnerable.
I know it is not permanent. I know I will find another even more wonderful woman. But for now, it's going to be the two of us.
Time to saddle up.
I have made it clear that I "dumped her". WW has expressed that she harbors resentment from the "dumping" but she shows no signs of being remotely close to finishing her fog.
Dude, you didn't "dump her". She's having an affair. Any resentment she feels from being dumped is to manipulate you.
And yes, for a while, it will just be the two of you. I am one of those guys that loved being married and spending every day with my best friend. I feel your pain. It hurts every day. I picked up D16 today; WAW came to the door and looked great. We had a nice chat while D16 finished getting ready.
And it sucked. If you find a magic pill to take away the pain, let me know. But slowly, very slowly, it does get better.
I used "dumped" as in Sandi's definition of the act of ditching. I have no illusions about what is really happening.
Joe
WW isn't in a FOG. Fog is fear obligation and guilt. That's you not WW.
There is no such thing as a WW fog. They aren't dissociated, their behaviour is clear as a bell, deliberate and desire to achieve a manipulative objective.
This is internal process to a wayward. They know exactly what they are doing.
This isn't going to shift with a mild breeze blowing and suddenly she sees and it's ooh what did I do to my poor H. Better make it right today.
It's the LBS that dissociated not the wayward.
Just saying.
V
And if it helps you to think you 'dumped' her sorry entitled ass. You go right ahead and do so.
V
I hate that moving us out of the MH will give WW a victory and make me less masculine to her and my boys.
How does it make you look less masculine?
Sandi:
I could be off base. It certainly feels like I'm letting her win. I suppose it doesn't have anything to do with masculinity in the grand scheme of things.
I had a candid talk with S14 today while WW was out. He wanted to talk to me in secret. I had to explain what was reality and that was bullsht from WW. Of course all he understood about the sitch is lies from WW. I helped him sort through the lies and explained the reason WW and I don't talk much anymore.
He expressed how hard it is for him when he's with WW. He even tried to get her to talk to a counselor!!! She projected it back on him. I feel awful for S14.
I gave him a game plan to follow in the event of a true crisis. I gave him important phone numbers of family that he didn't have in his phone. I let him know I will always have a place for him in my home no matter where that ends up being. I told him that I will always be here for him, and that I will help his mom if it ever comes down to a true emergency.
He really needed the reassurances. His world has fallen apart. Poor guy is in bad shape. I don't know what else I can do for him at this point.
So sad.
I could be off base. It certainly feels like I'm letting her win. I suppose it doesn't have anything to do with masculinity in the grand scheme of things.
You might be right, in some cases. However, I don't think it's healthy for you to look at who is winning. When someone is showing the type of behavior you see in your W, and when kids are in the middle of it......you protect your child. It is a toxic environment, and it appears to be getting worse. Frankly, I don't see her changing while you stay there. Staying there and battling it out is not winning, and it's not fair to the boys.
In this particular case, I don't see masculinity having anything to do with it. Don't look at it as if she's kicking you out. It is your choice to leave.
Joe
There is only one thing to focus on. And that is you my friend.
Wobbles happen. It is only your fear though. You can overcome that. For you and the kids. Focus. Be you. The you that you know. Sadly we loose sight of who we are. It is temporary however. I promise you. I have done what you are doing. Been what you are. I got through for me and the kids and so will you my friend.
I am so much more happy now.
It seemed to be endless pain. Years and years for me. Same as yours but probably lots longer. Hurt like i have never felt before bot hurt I no longer really remember. It goes in the same way the pain of an injury goes. It hurts at the time. But, in time, you forget the pain but remember it happenend.
I can only tell you the pain will go. The memories will too fade, of the hard times, I promise you will be fine my friend. You and the kids will be happy.
Buck up and be strong.
Surfer.
You are standing for both of your kids. Keep going on that. You have to protect them from all of that nasty environment. And it is no easy to do. You should remain calm and take care of your health too...
Be strong man, be strong.
If put you and your boys in a better situation, then as far as I am concerned, you are the winner and it doesn't matter if she gets what she wants.
How’s the weekend been mate?
Surfer.