First Post - Not Sure Where I'm Headed

[Natural]

This is my story.

I'm impressed with everything I've read here. I found the DB website 5 days ago and been reading & listening since. A week and a half ago, in therapy (after 6+ months of therapy), my W said she was done - (BD) - and making a list if stuff she wants. The therapist immediately switched gears toward grief counseling for loss. I'd been warned, repeatedly, but had not learned.

I've struggled with porn addiction for years. Quit for a year, became ill (low thyroid, fungal infection, etc.), started again, now regaining my health/sobriety. We have a SSM on steroids. I have much trust to rebuild if I get the chance.

W said she was done 3 months ago. Therapist suggested pausing for 6 months to see if I could change. W countered with 3 months. Then she regretted it. Hence, the BD, of sorts, 2.5 months later, but she has not yet filed for D. We are in the same house, but sleep in different rooms.

After BD, I initially reacted poorly. I told W I wanted her to get a full-time job. Argument ensued. After discovering DB, I've been calm, supportive, giving her space, no R talk. She seems nicer already. I'm acting AS IF. I honored her request and moved my stuff to the spare bathroom. We can't afford to live separately. I'm working on GAL. That seems to be helping.

I guess I'm blessed in spite of the SITCH. Our SSM and my porn use have been her chief complaints. I've apologized repeatedly. Probably need to keep doing that. Recently she said the lack of emotional support pushed her over the edge.

I never believed that D would happen for us. She has threatened D for 13-14 yrs (cry wolf?). She has not filed papers yet and wants non-contested D, but our assets may make it contested. She has asked whether I want attorney or mediated D. I want our MR to work, but she knows that.

I have questions because my SITCH seems unusual. I want to show emotional support, but not beg or pursue or push R talk. I need to find the balance. I'm making a list of what works and what doesn't. Suggestions welcome.

[Cadet]

Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

Yes first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.

Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon

[Gordie]

Sorry you are here. I see hope in your situation in that your w has a specific and tangible complaint that is in your control. Focus on you and your issues. Give her space. Can you once and for all address your porn addiction? I don’t know much about it but assume there are programs available? Become the man you want to be...and only a fool would love. Initially, she may say too little, too late (she’s been telling you for years) so this needs to be a significant and life long change for you...and it may well save your marriage. Are there other issues?

[MoveFrwd]

I've struggled with porn addiction for years. Quit for a year, became ill (low thyroid, fungal infection, etc.), started again, now regaining my health/sobriety. We have a SSM on steroids. I have much trust to rebuild if I get the chance.

Id recommend switching your focus from 'saving the M' to 'getting yourself to a place where you are happy and comfortable with yourself'. What kind of work are you doing in that sense (aside from, Im assuming, quitting porn cold turkey)?

After BD, I initially reacted poorly. I told W I wanted her to get a full-time job. Argument ensued.

This sounds like a different issue than just sex. Does she not work? Are you resentful? What has your home life been like for 30 years?

I honored her request and moved my stuff to the spare bathroom.

Why? I assume this means that you are the one who was displaced from the master bedroom? Again, why?

We can't afford to live separately. I'm working on GAL. That seems to be helping.

I've apologized repeatedly. Probably need to keep doing that.

Why would you keep apologizing?!


Im sorry youre here. Good luck and keep posting!

[kml]

A few questions for you:

Was it a sex starved marriage because you turned to porn instead of your wife? Or did you turn to porn because she wasn't interested in sex?

Were her threats of divorce over all these years about the porn, or were there other reasons she was unhappy? Or is this part of an unhealthy pattern she has?

Do you have other addictions besides porn?

Some thoughts:
First of all, own your part in this. Validate that the porn was inappropriate.

Second - about GAL. Tread carefully here. In your situation ( a little different from most) you DONT want to give her the impression you might be out meeting other women. So engage in healthy activities with male friends, or if you have kids, focus on spending more quality time with them.

Third - why are you so financially strapped? Is this another issue in your marriage that needs to be addressed?

[NicoleR]

Hello Natural, it sounds like you're taking the right steps. Hopefully if you can permanently end the problems that bothered your wife then she'll give you another chance after seeing you strong, stable, and attentive to her again. It sounds like this is a good opportunity in your life to challenge yourself to do a re-haul of your life and the reward will be that you save your marriage. I hope everything will work out for you!

[sandi2]

I have questions because my SITCH seems unusual. I want to show emotional support, but not beg or pursue or push R talk. I need to find the balance. I'm making a list of what works and what doesn't. Suggestions welcome.

Unusual in what way?

[petri]

None of us believe D would happen to us. If we did none of us would ever get married. You say she has pulled the big D card for 13-14 years. Why has she done that? How did your addiction affect your M?

[Natural]

Wow! The response on this post far exceeds my expectations. Thank you all! I will try to answer questions.

Gordie - Can you once and for all address your porn addiction? I don’t know much about it but assume there are programs available? Are there other issues?

Answer - I think so, I'm committed to it. An online SAA (Sex Addicts Anonymous) community made the most difference for me. Other issues include trust, money, fairness, and my 28-year-old stepson, who lives with us, does not pay rent, has had 2 DWIs, an addiction, and enough debt to buy a college education, but he never finished high school.

Kaizen - What kind of work are you doing in that sense (aside from, Im assuming, quitting porn cold turkey)?

Answer - I found Michele's online 90-minute divorce busting program and bought it immediately. I read a lot. I'll look into the SAA online community again.

Kaizen - Does she not work? Are you resentful? What has your home life been like for 30 years?

Answer - She works part time, and has through most of our 15+ year M. A year with no work at all. She worked about a year full time. Yes, I am resentful, somewhat, but resentment typically backfires. Guys I know who have non-working wives probably have triple my income. We've been married 15 years. For many of those, I worked too much. She felt ignored.

Kaizen - I assume this means that you are the one who was displaced from the master bedroom? Again, why?

Answer - I assume that it's normal that, when the W is angry, the H sleeps on the couch. Same thing with the master bathroom. Fighting would just make things worse.

Kaizen - Why would you keep apologizing?!

Answer - One of Michele's programs said "If you've had an affair, you may need to keep apologizing." For my W, my use of porn feels like an affair. When I'm honest with myself, I'm disgusted that I let her down repeatedly and hurt her that deeply.

KML - Was it a sex starved marriage because you turned to porn instead of your wife? Or did you turn to porn because she wasn't interested in sex?

Answer - It's complicated. Porn was the biggest factor. My W initiated sex often when we were first married. Then it seemed she wanted me to initiate all of it, when and how she wanted it. She didn't want it in the morning when I did.

KML - Were her threats of divorce over all these years about the porn, or were there other reasons she was unhappy? Or is this part of an unhealthy pattern she has?

Answer - All of the above. We often talked and laughed. But there were arguments - about my stepson (I wanted consequences, think she's enabling, etc.), communication, money, and stupid little stuff. She gained weight, blamed it on me, on the marriage.

KML - Do you have other addictions besides porn?

Answer - No. I quit tobacco ~ 7 years ago. Quitting porn was/is tougher.

KML - Why are you so financially strapped? Is this another issue in your marriage that needs to be addressed?

Answer - Circumstances. I got a 30% pay cut a year ago, then a 22% pay increase 2 months ago. Lots of medical bills (my diabetes, fungal infection). W is reluctant to work full time until she needs to buy her own home. Our home is plenty big enough for me to give her space.

Sandi2 - Unusual in what way?

Answer - As described above. I have: 1) a porn addiction; 2) a W who works part time, and 3) a 28-year-old step son who works full time, abuses substances, lives with us, accumulates debt, and pays no rent. (No, I'm not okay with that, but not willing to fight any more. Waiting for his rock bottom, bankruptcy, and surrender to treatment).

Petri - You say she has pulled the big D card for 13-14 years. Why has she done that? How did your addiction affect your M?

Answer - She would say she wanted a D when we argued. In years 2-8 of M, I think she mostly felt neglected. She got mad that I worked too much. Then my addiction set in. That has been the main thing driving the D.

I think I need to write that heartfelt apology letter to my W that Michele talked about in her DB video program, but I may wait a couple weeks for things to settle first. She has not filed for D yet, and has been nice to me lately. We have a legal service subscription and will probably make the first attorney contact together for that. Seems strange sort of strange, but she still depends on me for complex contract details. I'm the detailed one. She's driven by intuition.

[AnotherStander]

Answer - I assume that it's normal that, when the W is angry, the H sleeps on the couch. Same thing with the master bathroom. Fighting would just make things worse.

We advise not to leave the MBR. She's the one that wants out of the M, she's the one that should be inconvenienced by that choice. Our attitude here is to tell her "you can sleep here in the bed with me or you can sleep in another room, that's your choice. But I'm continuing to sleep here." We're not saying to fight her about it, what's to fight about? Just hold your ground. The bed in the master bedroom is like the throne of the house, don't relinquish the throne to a WAS.

Answer - One of Michele's programs said "If you've had an affair, you may need to keep apologizing." For my W, my use of porn feels like an affair. When I'm honest with myself, I'm disgusted that I let her down repeatedly and hurt her that deeply.

One genuine, heartfelt apology trumps 100 shallow "I'm sorry" apologies. If you've apologized to the point that you can say "she knows I'm really sorry" then there's no need to keep apologizing. Too many apologies can make you look weak and pathetic in her eyes.

[sandi2]

Sandi2 - Unusual in what way?

Answer - As described above. I have: 1) a porn addiction; 2) a W who works part time, and 3) a 28-year-old step son who works full time, abuses substances, lives with us, accumulates debt, and pays no rent. (No, I'm not okay with that, but not willing to fight any more. Waiting for his rock bottom, bankruptcy, and surrender to treatment).

Actually, there have been similar cases on the board that I can recall.

The stress of having the 28 yr old stepson in your home, could be damaging to your MR, also. Will your W not hear of having him leave? Does she expect you to financially bail him out?

For now, I will assume you have a WAW. You need to get acquainted with the DR book and read the links on Cadet's post. Be sure to read the link on the Lighthouse, Boundaries, Validation and Detachment.

Have you tried, or do you want to stop using porn? I think that may be your hardest step to accomplish. We had a poster not too long ago who overcame his porn issue. The last I heard, it had not saved his M b/c his W said it was too late. However, he was doing great and moving forward with his life. So, be aware that it may have no affect on saving your M.

KML - Was it a sex starved marriage because you turned to porn instead of your wife? Or did you turn to porn because she wasn't interested in sex?

Answer - It's complicated. Porn was the biggest factor. My W initiated sex often when we were first married. Then it seemed she wanted me to initiate all of it, when and how she wanted it. She didn't want it in the morning when I did.

So.....was it stubbornness that led to a SSM? From what I hear, most H's want it anytime.....any way. Am I reading you incorrectly?

Answer - She works part time, and has through most of our 15+ year M. A year with no work at all. She worked about a year full time. Yes, I am resentful, somewhat, but resentment typically backfires. Guys I know who have non-working wives probably have triple my income. We've been married 15 years. For many of those, I worked too much. She felt ignored.

Okay, are you resentful of her not working full time b/c it causes you to put in more hours or b/c of less income? It's ironic that women who refuses to work full time complain about feeling ignored. Did you have time to spend with the kids, hobbies, friends, etc.?

She would say she wanted a D when we argued. In years 2-8 of M, I think she mostly felt neglected. She got mad that I worked too much. Then my addiction set in. That has been the main thing driving the D.

Some women use whatever leverage they have, in this case your W threatened with D.

You can begin working on the porn addiction immediately. You don't have to discuss it with her. No need to tell her how you are working on yourself to be a better man, etc. Just do it.

Apologies may not be worth much, unless she sees a change. It's like apologizing for an affair while you continue sleeping with the OP. But, that's JMHO.

The biggest problem I see in newcomers is that they want to "do" something right this minute that brings instant & positive results. You have to realize and accept that this situation did not happen overnight and it won't be resolved overnight.

[Cadet]

Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.

[Natural]

The stress of having the 28 yr old stepson in your home, could be damaging to your MR, also. Will your W not hear of having him leave? Does she expect you to financially bail him out?

IMO it has definitely been damaging to the MR. I have been asking for house rules for 10 years with no results. WAW is overprotective, thinks I should not worry about stepson, she will handle him, and that he is a separate topic from our MR.

WAW is afraid he would not make it if we kicked him out of our house. I bailed him out of jail after DWI#2 and he has not paid me back for that. Now he is on harder drugs. I plan to test his room for drug residue, and if detected at a level of concern, I will decline to refinance the house to get her cash for the D so she can move, unless the residue is remediated and both house and stepson continue to be clean.

Have you tried, or do you want to stop using porn? I think that may be your hardest step to accomplish. We had a poster not too long ago who overcame his porn issue. The last I heard, it had not saved his M b/c his W said it was too late.

Yes. I stopped porn for a year. Had my act together. Then I became ill – hypothyroid, systemic/invasive fungal infection (plus I have Type 1 diabetes). I'm finally getting the fungal infection under control after 2 years. Now it's time to find my happy place and stay porn free. I understand that WAW believes it’s too late, or does not trust that I will change.
So I get it. I need to be happy for me. Like any addiction, porn leaves you hollow.

So.....was it stubbornness that led to a SSM? From what I hear, most H's want it anytime.....any way. Am I reading you incorrectly?

Honestly, I think it was a combo of anger in both of us, her pushing me away, not being able to get on the same page, needs not met for either of us, so eventually I turned more to porn.

In hindsight, I never gave her the verbal foreplay she wanted. I did not really know how at the time, just worked a lot. Early in our marriage, that didn’t matter, then it turned into an issue. About that same time, stepson did not finish high school. Then he spent 3 years in his room playing video games after quitting three jobs within a month or two of getting them. That became an issue for me because there was never any consequence or strategic effort to motivate him, even though I I lobbied (or complained) for it. Enabling is still happening.

It's ironic that women who refuses to work full time complain about feeling ignored. Did you have time to spend with the kids, hobbies, friends, etc.?

The only kid we have is the stepson, but I make time for hobbies and friends. I don’t work as much as I used to, but money is tighter. WAW and I have not vacationed together in 5+ years. That has killed romance too.

I fully understand this is a long-hall stick-to-it program, not for the faint of heart. Is it necessary to read both the DB book and the DR book, or is there overlap between them? I’ve started the DR book and have been through the LRT training video series.

[sandi2]

Is it necessary to read both the DB book and the DR book, or is there overlap between them? I’ve started the DR book and have been through the LRT training video series.

DR is an updated version of DB, and I don't think it's necessary to read both books.

It sounds as if you are in a pickle about the step-son. If she won't allow you to be a parent who sets boundaries with him, you may have him living in your house until he marries. Then he'll bring his new W and raise their kids in your house, too. Listen, I fully understand your frustration, and when the other parent is an enabler, it makes for a terrible situation.

This is JMHO, but I think you need to make a decision about what you want for the rest of your life. You see how it is with her and the grown man she has made worthless, for all practical purposes. Unless you can be respected as the head of the family/home, there could be bigger issues down the road. I mean, since he is an adult, he and his mother could completely take over, leaving you with no voice whatsoever. If it were me, I would tell her that he has to follow ground rules you set, or else he's out of the house. If she threatens to go with him.......you may have to tell her that's not what you want, but you won't try to stop her. Otherwise, you will be supporting this guy and your W, who has turned him into a mama's boy, for the rest of your life. IMHO, that needs to be settled first.

If they leave, they'll have to get a job. Something tells me that that won't last long. But my point is that you can't show any fear about her leaving you. And if you approach her about the son following house rules, don't show anger. Keep your voice soft but firm. No raising your voice toward your W.

Are you wanting to keep the house, if she gets a D?

I empathize with your chronic health problems. ((hugs))
Being in this type of ongoing stress doesn't help it.

Your attitude toward working to get yourself together sounds really good. I hope you can reach several goals this year. Speaking of goals, the DR book has a chapter on setting goals. I encourage you to take an evaluation of yourself and dig really deep. List the things about yourself you want to change/improve. Then write down the steps to take to get there.

Finish the book, and read the links on Cadet's page. Post often and read other people's threads. Posting to them will encourage them to post on your thread, also.

[Natural]

Sandi2 -

Thanks. Good advice, and things to think about.

I'm not clear exactly what I want. I came here to save my marriage, but I also need to see some compromise or negotiation. We're leaning toward mediation. That could help settle disputes, bring in fresh air, or turn into a battle that requires attorneys. I read that mediation has a higher chance of saving marriages that court.

Mostly, I want to feel good, physically, and emotionally, again. The detachment approach really helps. I have a history of being a victim at times. But I'm giving that up, believing that whatever happens will be for the best and bring me happiness. Anger and resentment are self-inflicted punishment.

Yes, I want to keep the house. WAW has been nice, but at one point told me "I can make you sell the house." I think she said that intending to show how reasonable she is being, because she does not want me to have to sell the house. I had been through the online LRT video course a couple times before she made that comment, so I said nothing in response, just looked at her. It felt good to not take the bait, even if it wasn't intended as bait.

My health is in recovery, and my diabetes is quite well managed, so I don't feel like I have chronic health problems. I'm on my way back, and beginning to practice what the LRT suggests -- become the person that your spouse was originally attracted to. My copy of DR arrived in the mail today, so now I can read chapter 2.

I've recently concluded my W is having a MLC. , even if she's 57, the signs are there. Her best friend got a D a few years ago, now dates a Harley Motorcycle man and wears Harley gear all the time. So my W no longer talks to the woman who was her best friend. W has also broken off from another long-term friend, and had another friend move far away to another state.

Also, W tried starting three independent businesses involving network marketing, sales, and coaching, with limited success.
Now she watches TV a lot, has lost motivation. Plus, she is still is unclear about how to get her son to accept the help he needs. So she is sort of lost, and shifts between saying she's depressed and denying depression.

It makes me very sad when I think about it. I feel for her. I want my happy, charming, laughing W back. Most people love her.

It's like MWD says, your life goes to pieces, and you look around, and who is standing there, but your spouse, so you think, "I'll just get rid of him, maybe that will fix it."

[Cadet]

.I've recently concluded my W is having a MLC. , even if she's 57, the signs are there.

Yup I started posting here when I/she was 55 now 9 years later very little has changed after we were divorced at 57 except that I am happy again.
She is still running and depressed.

[sandi2]

It makes me very sad when I think about it. I feel for her. I want my happy, charming, laughing W back. Most people love her.

I hope you get what you want. It sounds as if she is searching for something that makes her feel better, even happy. It took me a long time to accept that my happiness was my responsibility, and not my H's responsibility "to make" me happy.

Can you tell us anything else about the marital history?

[Natural]

It's been a week since I last posted. I needed time to sort my thoughts.

I/she was 55 now 9 years later very little has changed after we were divorced at 57 except that I am happy again. She is still running and depressed.?

Any thoughts on why she's still unhappy? Does she have unrealistic goals for how she's to be treated or for her happiness?

My W has always loved being the center of attention. I don't think she is very good at handling fair and equitable terms. Depending on how the divorce goes, she might be very disappointed. I have pre-marital assets and the residue from her adult son's addiction could have a significant impact on the value of our home.

It took me a long time to accept that my happiness was my responsibility, and not my H's responsibility "to make" me happy.

Can you tell us anything else about the marital history?

My W has done lots of personal development work, so I fail to understand why she often insists on blaming things on me. She says I ruined her sex life. She says I (or our marriage) causes her engage in her addiction to junk food. She says her stepson does not affect our marriage. More on that later. I'm aware that I can't enlighten her. She needs to do that herself.

Marital History
Year 1 - This was okay.

Year 2 - She got upset because I worked too much. She started to complain about my driving, called me a sh*tty driver, and called me an a**hole. This continued intermittently (when she got mad) until about Year 7 or 8, when it stopped because a therapist told her it had to stop.

Year 5 - She threw an awesome birthday party for me (age 50). We had 75 people. Two years later, she planned her own 50th birthday party and I carried it out. She is the party planner, the life of the party. I am more introverted, detailed. These were good times.

Years 3-9 - We took about 4 trips to Mexico. Life was generally good. I made decent money and we could afford good vacations. We traveled well together. Both of us, I thought, were fairly happy.

Year 10 - I was laid off. I got a good job 11 weeks later. W was impressed. We took a couple more local/less expensive/shorter vacations since then, but none to Mexico.

Year 11 - Stepson bought a motorcycle with money from his grandparents, didn't get it licensed, didn't get motorcycle endorsement on his driver license, then crashed it and sustained traumatic brain injury. He was in ICU for ~ 2 weeks. W was there every day, all day. I stopped by to support her once a day. I got a new job.

Year 12 - We sold our house and moved 5 miles. I wanted big trees in the backyard. She wanted an updated kitchen. We got both. We moved and were happy. Now she does't like the house so much. Stepson got 2nd DWI. I baled him out of jail. Should not have done that.

Year 14-15 - Stepson started acting out around Thanksgiving to New Years of Year 14. Yelling, calling me a piece of sh*t, etc. I believe this was due to meth, at least partially. Later his girlfriend moved in, things settled down, they paid rent for a few months. Then girlfriend moved out because of stepson's meth addiction. Rent payments ended then. W and I have been in therapy all year. That seemed helpful, but only to get her what she wanted, and she's still not happy. Stepson just lost his job last week. Rock bottom can't be far away for him. I asked W "What now?" She said stepson needs to deal with it.

So we have had lots of happy times, and also lots of problems. I bought a little convertible when I turned 50 and W used to like to take pictures of us smiling in it. I sold it 2 years ago and bought a practical hybrid. W is not very practical, and said once she misses the convertible.

My wife and I are a case of opposites attract. She is loud, sometimes sarcastic (anger coming out sideways), expressive, very friendly. I am more quiet, and have a hard time talking about myself top her without her picking on me for changing the subject. I've frequently asked her how her day was. She has always said "Fine." Even 10 years ago, she said "Fine." I've not been able to get her to share details unless she wants to. I share details of my life and she says stuff like "I don't care." and "I'm not interested."

I am more introverted, an analytical expressive. So I have Nice Guy Syndrome. My W asked me, when were engaged, not to let her "walk all over me." That's hard to do because if I'm firm about things, she gets louder, more blaming, and then shuts me out. So how do I deal with that?

She believes the cause of our D is no sex and no emotional support. It's no small irony that our regular sex life died when stepson turned 18, lived in his room playing video games with no job, and she refused all attempts I made to create house rules. Dictators are not very attractive.

Now fast forward 10 years. I told her a year ago that I was not doing this anymore because stepson was acting up and there were no rules. So we started therapy. The big issue for her is sex and emotional need. The big issue for me is respect and stepson's continuing meth addiction.

She is counting on getting money out of the house. I've not told her this yet, but I need to be sure that stepson and the house are free of meth residue before I will buy her out or sell the house. I've thought about telling her that, but I think it's in my interest to say that only in front of a mediator and/or attorney. This could have significant financial implications for the home value and divorce.

I think I have a few options:

1. Post a notice on stepson's door that he has not paid rent and that I am taking measures to evict him. This will cost me about $300 and a half day of work. Small stuff in the big picture. But it's likely to incite an emotional, potentially abusive battle, and W negotiating on behalf of stepson. Not sure I want that. His behavior is not predictable. I'm not able to predict how he might act out.

2. Wait for the negotiation papers on the divorce. Then bring up the meth contamination and require it be properly tested and remediated, at no expense to me.

3. Test stepson's room for meth with a do-it-yourself kit. This is hard to do, because he does not leave for work anymore.

[Natural]

It has been a month since my W said we’re getting a D. I’m faring better than I thought I would – I’m not a basket case – but I’m not very clear about what I want or my strategy in dealing with D negotiations. I’m not sure I want to be married to my W anymore. It really depends if she can develop the capacity to treat me with respect.

On one hand, I still love my W. She can be caring, sometimes. Her smile and laughter are contagious. She often uses humor to take the edge off of things. She has an outgoing, charming personality. We used to spend hours on Saturday mornings, just sitting with coffee and talking. Sitting on the deck enjoying the backyard. Talking about the future, the past week, or how blessed we’ve been. I’ve loved those times.

She’s told me that she’s worried about me. She is concerned I’ll become a grizzly old reclusive lonely hermit after the D. I’ve told her I’m going to reinvent myself, with or without her. She’s told me that she wants me to keep the dog (which we both love) so that I won’t be alone, but she wants visitation rights. I appreciate that.

On the other hand, I resent her. She is control-oriented, sarcastic, non-negotiable, unwilling, unaccountable, and has tended to blame me for her depression and over-eating. Sometimes her sarcasm is just plain mean. Sometimes she is mean without sarcasm, or says things to covey her need to feel superior.

Sarcasm is defined as “the use of irony to mock or convey contempt.” When I call her on it, the response has always been “I was kidding!” Bullcrap! To me, loving humor and sarcasm are mutually exclusive. It is hard to love a person who is self-centered and treats you with sarcasm.

These observations have caused me to learn about boundaries by reading the cheat sheet and other postings on this board. I’ve not been good with boundaries. I’m slow to respond to sarcasm. Mostly, I ignore it or just step over it. That has contributed to the sorry state of my M. I tend to be nice. Sometimes too nice.

Two events in the last week illustrate this.

Last weekend, W said the check engine light is on in her car. I said I could check it with my code reader and find out what is wrong. She gets all curious, so I show her the code reader and mention that she never cared about this before. She says that she is going to have to learn this.

A few days ago, I asked her about running the dishwasher. She says something like “Oh, so now you’re going to use the dishwasher because you don’t want to wash all those dishes by hand.” (Biting sarcasm. I typically wash 2-6 dishes quickly by hand and avoid the dishwasher. She has disliked that. This time, I let the dishes build up because I was sick for 3 days. She hardly uses dishes, as she’s been mostly easting prepared/junk foods lately.)

I ignored the sarcastic remark and asked what can/can’t go in the dishwasher. Then I asked about the soap for the dishwasher. She told me she showed me how to use the dishwasher before, but I just never used it. I said I’ve not used this dishwasher since we moved to this house 2.5 years ago. She told me she showed me how and just never used it. I said okay and walked away, sorry to have even spoken to her.

After she brought up the deal with her car, I was ready to do her a favor, be nice, help her out. After I brought up the dishwasher, she used it an opportunity put me down, make herself right, make me wrong, and act superior. Am I being oversensitive by wishing that I had not even talked to her? I could have just figured it out myself easy enough.

I’m a little unsure about how to implement boundaries retroactively. I’m thinking of waiting for her to ask if I’m going to diagnose her check engine light, and then say “I was going to do that, but I don’t want to reward the sarcastic, negative response I received from you when I asked about the dishwasher. I’ve decided that it’s not in my best interest to do you any favors.”

Any better ideas?

[Natural]

I had a couple conversations with my W today. Needed to talk to her about splitting bills and other stuff related to the D.

In the first conversation, I ended up walking away rather soon and abruptly. I told her I was not continuing the conversation with the way it was going.

When we talked later, she said she is not going to be cut off again. I explained that I felt disrespected, and that to take care of myself, I need to leave the conversation when I feel disrespected. I told her that I'm learning to set boundaries and not let her "walk all over" me anymore, and that I'm working on walking away when disrespected instead of just taking it and then complaining about it later (being passive aggressive).

So that is the second breakthrough I learned on this board. The first was validating what she says. Still practicing with that one.

She said she is going to get the house appraised as suggested by her attorney, and that I should also get it appraised. She wants the D to be done in 3 months, maybe even two months. I told her I don't think it will go that fast. She said she doesn't know why it won't.

So then I said that I think the house needs to be inspected for meth contamination because I'm not going to buy her out of the house or sell the house if it's contaminated, because I don't want to pay $20K to clean up meth residue later. She thinks I'm making a big deal out of this. Time will tell.

[Natural]

I received the petition for D from my W yesterday and we talked about it last night. Since then, I've found it hard to focus on my work. The D now seems more real, and I'm not feeling very effective at DB-ing. I actually enjoyed some of the conversation with my W last night, but felt less comfortable with it this morning.

I spent a good share of last weekend figuring out finances and estimating what share of my retirement savings is pre-marital and marital. My W has little retirement savings. It gave me some comfort to have a better idea how financial split might play out. W has been cooperative and says she will pay me back for her share of household expenses accumulated during separation. I don't really believe that, and have told her as much, but I'm keeping track of expenses so I know where we land.

I'm going to request that W and stepson both work full-time so that they can contribute to household bills. W has worked ~ 20 hours a week during our whole marriage, and stepson just lost his job due to meth addiction.

I keep thinking of the five stages of divorce/grief so I can figure out where I am with all of this. I think receiving the petition for D moved me past Denial and brought up more Anger/Bargaining/Depression, which seem to present at various times during most days. Acceptance does not seem present yet. Acting "as if" has been a challenge lately.

But I do have times when I'm okay with either D or reconciliation, especially when I'm clear about how W and I were often not on the same page with respect to money, step-son, and sex. I'm still reading DR, so I'm not very clear about what new approaches in those areas might have led to different results, in the past or the future.

Last week, W stayed at her brother's house to dog sit while he was out of town. I found it easier to be detached when she was not around. That helps me understand why some people say in-house separations do not work well. The proximity of WAW seems to cloud the mind.

[sandi2]

I'm going to request that W and stepson both work full-time so that they can contribute to household bills. W has worked ~ 20 hours a week during our whole marriage, and stepson just lost his job due to meth addiction.

I don't mean to sound sarcastic, but why do you think either of them would work now----knowing a D is in the making, when they would not previously contribute to household bills? I suppose I am asking why it would matter to them that you request it?

I submit that you don't know what else to do (as a man who has NGS), therefore, you "ask" them again......expecting different results. What do you think would happen if you only paid a third of the bills? Or, maybe I should ask, what would happen if you did not engage in the argument that would follow.

FWIW, I feel badly for you. I think there are many, many M stitches similar to yours. If a D should go through, I truly hope you will take away a few hard learned lessons about the NGS.

You sound like a good person, and I'm sure you will have no problem finding another woman to M, if that's what you want. But seriously, please study about the NGS from the original author, so as to learn how to overcome some of the issues that will continue to cause you problems in the future.

I hope you'll finish the DR book soon.

[Natural]

S -

Thanks for the suggestions. My plan was to ask that my W and stepson work full time so that they know that I am not willingly paying all the bills -- sort of to go on the record. I don't really expect them go out and get full-time jobs, but they need to be accountable for their own financial security.

I'll also consider rolling back our TV channel subscriptions. W watches lots of TV. I hardly watch any. Now that we are separated, there is no reason for me to pay for her leisure anymore.

I think I found the NGS book by the original author that you referenced (No more Mr Nice Guy). I also found another book called The Way of the Superior Man that I could be helpful. I've downloaded them both and have some transformative learning to do.

[sandi2]

Thanks for the suggestions. My plan was to ask that my W and stepson work full time so that they know that I am not willingly paying all the bills -- sort of to go on the record. I don't really expect them go out and get full-time jobs, but they need to be accountable for their own financial security.

Okay, but that will probably not be enough to spur them into action. Until their lack of contribution affects them directly, they will assume you will do as you've always done.......which is to complain about it, but you go on and pay the bills.

My suggestion is to devise a plan to split the bills, where everyone is responsible to pay out of their own pocketbooks. For example, instead of cutting down on the tv channels, tell your W you are no longer paying the cable bill or whatever source supplies the channels.. She will have to figure out what she can afford. That way, you don't appear to be controlling how much tv she watches. Make sense? If the bill is not paid, don't bail her out. Allow her to experience the consequences.

The same rule applies to the adult S-son. Tell him you will no longer pay for Internet service, or whatever it is he likes to do all day. If he loses it, so be it. You will use the Internet connections elsewhere to post on the board.

Do either of them smoke? Do not buy their cigarettes. Do either of them drink, same rule applies. What about cell phones? Do not buy their gas. Do not pay for their entertainment. Personal things like, their favorite brand of toiletries, you should not buy for them......and they should not be allowed to use yours. Do not give them the money to eat out, or anything that is for their pleasure. Do not allow them to use your credit cards, or give them cash for buying clothes or personal items. In fact, just don't give them money for anything......and they will save you the hassel of asking what they want, etc. Anything they want personally for themselves, they need to supply the means. Now, utilities, mortage payments, and things that affect "you".......you need to continue paying. If she has previously been in charge of sending off the payments for utilities, mortgage, buying groceries, etc..........then stop it. You send payments for the things that will affect you. Don't give either of them money under the assumption they are buying groceries or anything. It's time to get very serious in your actions. And unfortunately, there are W's who are very deceitful in how they spend their H's paycheck. Therefore, if you haven't opened a new checking account in your name only, I suggest you do it ASAP.

That's what I mean by it affecting them directly. If they don't take you seriously, or when you stop paying for all their other stuff and they still make no effort to even look for work, you might consider buying your dinner and eating before going home after work........or buy carry out just for yourself. Tell them they have to contribute to purchasing groceries or go without. This may seem harsh, but it would definitely make a believer out of them......if you won't cave. Don't tell them, but I would not wait until the house was completely emty of groceries before you advise them to start contributing to the food bill. Your goal is not to starve them, but to shake their lazy a$$es awake. As long as you stay logical about enforcing these rules, and don't cave when they start crying or using other emotional pressure to get you to pay for what they want.....they will find enough income to contribute to the things they want.

I would give them two weeks to a month to find work. It doesn't have to be their dream job.......just anything that pays. Adult children, and wives, can find a lot of excuses to why they can't find work.......but there is usually some type of work out there. It's just not what they prefer to do. I would wait to the last resort before not buying groceries......but stop giving her money and telling her to go buy it. When you trust her to use your money on household expenses........she will deceive you and take advantage. So, you will have to shop for the food and household needs if it comes down to it.

It sounds as if they have taken advantage of you for a long time. The suggestions above may not save the M, but it will either cause them to get a job, respect you for what you have provided, or they will leave. I understand how she sides with her son, and she spoils him. She blackmails you, in order to make you support her adult son. But my suggestion is to start with ending your finances to pay for anything he wants. If he is content to stay in his room and still not contribute enough to buy his personal stuff, then go the route with the groceries. He should leave immediately, and frankly, you haven't anything to lose that you aren't currently facing anyway.

[sandi2]

I was hoping to hear back from you. If you are still around, please give us an update.