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Posted By: sandi2 Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/01/18 04:48 AM
I talk a lot about respect and how it ties to a wife's loving feelings for her H. So, I started typing this list of things I've heard other women talk about in their M's, and what I have read on the board. Then I thought maybe I should look online to see if I could gleam anything else. Frankly I was disappointed at the weak articles I saw (although I admit I only looked at, maybe, a half dozen). They just didn't have any meat to it, if you know what I mean. So, I'll just make up my own list. grin I invite other women to join in and add something I've missed. And of course, the men are welcome, too.

Obviously, I can't list everything, but maybe give some general areas that come to mind. They are not listed by any sort of priority or importance. Please forgive me, if anyone sees that I did not use proper terms, or if I omitted something very important and common. I probably should have taken time to think this out, but my usual style is shooting from the hip anyway. I have not experienced most of the things on this list, but I listen to other women and I read a lot.....if that counts. These are only my opinions. I have not copied from anything else, except for two places, which I noted.

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Reasons women lose attraction and respect for their H:

* The H is abusive (physically, verbally, mentally/emotionally) to his W and/or children.

* The H places his family in harms way. For whatever reason, he does not protect his wife and/or children.

* The H is guilty of any type of crime/abuse (reported or unreported), especially against children, women and the helpless. If the H is incarcerated, it places hardship, anguish, embarrassment, and sometimes...shame, on his family.

* The H won't hold down a job. He's not a good provider. He gets the couple in higher debt. He misuses finances. He may have a job she sees as "beneath him", doesn't pay enough, and he won't try to better himself. The H may have sank their life savings or took out a second mortgage for him to start his own business....and then the business fails.

* The H is an alcoholic, drug addict, gambling addict, porn addict, gaming addict, etc.....and, he won't seek help. He won't take responsibility for the suffering that affects all areas of the family's lives, due to his addictions.

* The H is not a good father. He is a terrible role model. He may be abusive. He punishes the children, instead of teaching discipline. He takes his anger out on them. He is too harsh, condescending, always on their backs, never praises them, has unrealistic expectations.....especially from a young son. He does not spend quality time with the kids. Does not do his share of parenting, b/c he sees it as being the W's job to raise the kids. He is not careful of the language or subject matter he uses around his kids. He does not show respect for their mother, nor teaches them to show her respect. He does not teach his children how to be a good person and how to deal with life while living by a code of integrity, ethics, values, etc. He does not show nor teach them about the importance of love, kindness, compassion, joy, peace, etc. In other words, what he passes along to his children is everything negative.....especially about fathers.

* The H has had an EA/PA. He flirts with other women, even in front of his W. The H is guilty of inappropriate behavior with women. He compares his W to other women, making her feel inadequate and insecure. He openly shows how he is checking out another woman, in the presence of his W. He talks excessively about the new woman at work and cannot praise her enough. He wants his W to change her hair color or dress like a particular woman he knows. He talks about marriage as if it is his prison and his W is the warden. He makes unfunny jokes or comments about marriage, wives, playing around on the W, etc. He talks and behaves as if other women is the only topic that is ever on his mind.

* The H suffers from some type of emotional/mental condition and refuses to see a doctor or take the prescribed medication, attend therapy, etc......to control the condition.

* The H lacks male dominance. (The following was taken from another source). He lacks the take-charge ingredient when it comes to the MR and family life. His role models have been the TV sitcom H's who are the laid back, hen-pecked, passive types. He mistakenly believes that the way to a happy marriage is to let his W be in charge of everything, resulting in her ruling the roost. TV shows portray marriages that have a domineering W, with a somewhat dim-witted H who just happily goes along with whatever his W wants. In real life, those ingredients do not produce a happy W. It produces a W who disrespects her passive H who lacks male dominance in their MR and in the family home.

* The H does most of the housework. (The following was taken from another source): "A common mistake that modern men make in marriages is to copy the fictional relationships they see on TV drama shows or sitcoms, follow the advice of politically correct TV talk show hosts and believe the advice from random articles online that are not written by male relationship experts who are actually in a successful, happy relationship with a woman".

* The H is constantly rude and inconsiderate of her (and others). He embarrasses her in front of others. He talks down to her or makes fun at her expense in front of her children, family, friends, and in public. His manners are terrible. He is too loud (talking, laughing, poking at others, drawing attention, etc.) in public or in a group setting. He gets drunk and acts out in front of others. He may cuss or use vulgar language toward her and/or others while in public or a small group.

* The H is a chronic liar. He will tell a lie when the truth would serve him better. The W cannot believe anything that comes out of his mouth.

* The H is untrustworthy, unreliable, and undependable. He may use an excuse, or he may apologize, but he doesn't change.

* The H is lazy. He is a couch potato and thinks weekends should be spent in front of the TV and drinking beer. He won't take care of the lawn, the car, repairs, etc. If his W wants to have friends over, he won't lift his finger to help with the kids, etc. He's just pretty worthless when it comes to getting him to move his a$$.

* The H never admits he was wrong or takes responsibility for his mistakes. He blames others or the situation for his failures. He is arrogant. The H won't listen to her views or concerns. He doesn't respect the opinion of others. He thinks he is right and everyone else is wrong....regardless of what it is. When watching TV, he gets drawn into the program....making condensing or vulgar remarks, even in front of the children. His negativity is always present in his interaction with others. She worries that the children will pick up his bad habits.

* The H has a victim mentality. No matter the situation, he sees himself and portrays himself as a victim.

* The H is a control freak. This goes beyond a healthy interest or concern. He wants to control every aspect of the W (what she does, where she goes, who she talks to, what she wears, when she can visit her parents, etc.).

* The H is a mean jerk. He bullies, belittles, dares, threatens, and pokes at his W and kids regularly.

* The H is emotionally insecure. He is jealous, suspicious, fears, worries, expects the worst case scenario, gets anxious, etc. He doubts himself as a man. He needs constant assurances from his W that everything is fine.

* The H has no pride. He doesn't care about his personal appearance. He has allowed himself to gain too much weight, wears unflattering clothes, and has less than perfect personal grooming habits. He has no pride in keeping the vehicles washed and in working order. He has no pride in how the outside of his house looks, the yard, etc. He develops the habits of a slob, and won't clean up his own messes.

* The H has too much of the negative side of the Nice Guy Syndrome. He is passive, won't stand up to anyone, won't enforce disrespected boundaries, avoids conflict at all cost, over explains himself, etc.

* The H is a Mamma's boy. He has the Nice Guy Syndrome, usually. His mother (or both parents) takes priority over his W. If his parents and his W don't have a good relationship, he tries to be the buffer.....but generally will lean toward his parents. If his parents make snide remarks, complaints, accusations, or undermines his W, he stays tight lipped instead of defending his W and standing up to his parents. If his mother and W are jealous of the time/attention/devotion he gives the other one......he will choose his mother.

* The H lacks compassion, patience, tenderness, and understanding. He resents his W's complaints or her attempts to discuss the need for him to have these traits. Instead of trying, he grows colder, harder and more impatient with her and the children.

* The H is selfish in every area of his life. Self-gratification is priority for him, and if his W and kids don't understand, that's too bad.

The H is a hypochondriac and misses work at the first sniffle. If the W is sick, he tries to be sicker than her. He wants her undivided attention on his needs. He drains her b/c he is always focused on himself and how he feels.

* The H interferes with her employment (example: gets mad at her boss or co-workers and causes a scene at work, instead of staying out of her business and let her handle it). B/c of his interference and causing trouble at her job site, she may lose her employment there. When she tries to "vent" about her work, her H tells her what she needs to do to fix the problem, instead of just listening and validating. Instead of being supportive of her career or profession, he tears her down, complains about it, or even tries to undermine it in some way.

* The H has a job that is considered lower ranked on the success ladder, than his W. He may have worked while she went to school to have a professional career. He was financially supporting her schooling, and paying their bills. After her career takes off, she begins to see him having a lesser important job, with lesser responsibility, and lesser income. She begins to treat him like one of her employees, except with less respect. He has done nothing wrong, but it is a glitch in the W and how she views her H from her new successful pedestal. In our modern world, we are seeing more couples dealing with this issue. Women need to "look up" to their H. If she is not mature enough, or they don't have a very strong/happy MR.....it can negatively influence the light of "success" she sees her H. She sees herself as "outgrowing" him. We often see this scenario play out when the H is a SAHD. In most cases....the W's attraction and respect will begin to fade.

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I don't know if all this will fit onto one post/page. I guess we'll find out. I'm sure I've left something out that is important, so I welcome your comments.



Series Links

Links to this series of threads

First thread
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread
Sandi's Reflections







Posted By: Tread Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/01/18 06:34 AM
Sandi,

Just reading this list, I don't no any man that doesn't fall into any of these categories. My own parents have been happily married for 38 years. And I can see my own father in some of the things listed. From what I can tell our WS have unrealistic expectations. Don't get me wrong, I can see how some of these can be serious issues. But a lot of these WS leave their H for the reasons listed to end up with OM who are far worse. So why do these WS have this love and respect for OM?
Posted By: Morbo Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/01/18 08:58 AM
I see one or two of these traits in me. Selfishness for one.
My wife getting a better job(financially) than me and that resentment. Before I had always been the sole provider.
Moving to a new country, not having a green card and feeling useless. Mild depression didnt help and I shut down because I felt her bipolar was way worse than my "blues" and I didnt want to burden her.
I could have been more understanding, listened to her more.
Knowing her love language(s) and her mine would have been really useful.

I think we could have really worked on our marriage back in nov 16 but her resentment and hatred had built up so much along with her affair that it was all over and I could do nothing to repair it. Thing is , we had a really amazing, loving relationship for so long, we're so compatible in so many ways and I can never see myself loving someone like her in that way again. She did change though..
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/01/18 09:29 AM
Sure, lots of men and women have these issues....but that doesn't mean they don't learn how to deal with it, resolve or dissolve the problems. Both H's & W's do something that the other one finds unattractive or resent.

This is just a list of things that can lead to the W holding resentment in her heart and it turning into disrespect for him. It doesn't mean they get D over it. Some people live together for 65 years that have lots of resentment....however, it is very rare to see these days. Personally, I think we are too quick to get a D b/c of the times in which we live. We have a different mindset than our grandparents had.

Quote:
So why do these WS have this love and respect for OM?


I am so glad you asked, Thread. I've been meaning to comment on this very thing!

First, you have to remember that the WW is in a fantasy of her own making. What she feels for the OM is not real, except for maybe feelings of lust. I find it very difficult to believe she feels true love, if you understand the nature of waywardness. He is simply a part of her rebellion. But of course, she wants to see the OM as her shining knight on a white horse. Therefore, she's going to believe the b.s. he throws at her, and usually, she'll find something totally opposite from her H in this OM.

For example: My H had went into a self-employed business (if you could call it that), but he wasn't self-disciplined or driven enough to be his own employer. Anyway, he borrowed a ton of money by putting a another mortgage on our home....and sank us into a lot of debt. Needless to say, I was not pleased, and I did not feel very secure.

When I met the OM, he was not as handsome as my H. In fact, it was not the OM's looks that attracted me. It was what I thought I saw in him. He was single, had a very nice income and job security and a position of authority. He was a take charge kind of man, and that really appealed to me. I didn't have to wait all day to get an answer when I asked him a simple question, like I did with my passive H. We would actually carry on a two-way conversation, where as it was always one-sided with my non-verbal H. And of course, he fed my ego.....a lot!

Did I respect the OM? No, I did not know him well enough to respect him. I liked what he told me. I liked the man I thought (and wanted) him to be. I wanted the fantasy so badly, that if you had asked me back then if I respected the OM, I would have probably said yes....in defense, if nothing else. I was blinded by my own fantasy. And when a WW is in that particular time-slot....it is probably going to take something pretty drastic to shake her to her senses. That is why I think it's more successful when the H dumps his WW immediately upon learning about a third party. A supplicating H is just not going to jar her senses. Even letting her go, may not initially appear to be working.....but it does, if the H doesn't mess it up.

The attraction I first felt for the OM was too shallow to be anything else. I didn't know him, so how could I respect him....really? I didn't know how he treated the employees under him. I didn't know if his word could be trust, if he was reliable, compassionate or kind. I thought he must be pretty smart...and tough to have his job. I didn't know how he interacted with family or friends, or how he treated them. I didn't know his true character. I didn't know his principles and values. I only knew what he wanted me to know. shocked I had not live with him, nor worked with him. I did not know anyone who knew him. Until we know a person's reputation, history/track record, character, integrity, behavior/actions, and know them in a crisis......all we know is what they tell us, and maybe what we think we see at the moment....which can be deceiving at times. I've always said we don't really know a person until we live or work with them. So, unless we've done one or the other.....we don't really know them enough to respect or disrespect them as a person.

Another thing with the whole WW and OM affair is that it is not a relationship that was built on anything other than deceit and lust. How can respect be born from this union? How could trust ever come to into the picture? It usually takes time and some type of experience or knowing the track record of that person, in order to build respect. In a dating and engagement relationship, the couple has time to get better acquainted and learn more about each other. Their mutual attraction and respect will grow.....or they will go their separate ways. After marriage, their relationship will be tested many times. If they have enough maturity and enough respect for each other, they usually can pull through the crisis. If not, they will go their separate ways (at least emotionally).

In an affair, the attraction is connected to lust and built upon deceit. In a marriage, the attraction is connected to respect and built upon truth.
Posted By: Tread Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/01/18 12:17 PM
Sandi,

My one regret was not kicking my W to the curb back in December 2016 when I found out about the A. I was a fool thinking that 17 years together, 15 years of MR and this family would suddenly shake my W out of this fantasy. OM was married with three children, been in several affairs and happened to be her sisters cousin. Dude was even great looking. And she knew nothing about this guy. But yet after sleeping with him, she was willing to leave her MR to be the OW. While plotting to break up his own MR. On paper and to everyone aware of the sitch, I was the obvious better choice. But my W could never see that. Guess that fantasy/fog is stronger than love itself.
Posted By: Coconut Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/02/18 03:48 AM
Sandi,

That is a great list, thank you for putting it together. As I read through them, I saw some that didn't apply to me at all, a lot that partially applied to me, and none that completely applied to me.

I think the key is to understand the traits that can be unattractive to woman and be conscious of the things that you may be doing in excess. I think everyone can find a few things on that list that they are guilty of, and it's important to minimize those bad traits as much as possible.

I think one thing missing from this list is a H (or W for that matter) that will not communicate. It will be obvious that they are upset about something, but when asked what is wrong, they will just blow it off and say nothing, although they will walk around obviously grumpy all day, or even go to bed mad about it. It will fester and either they will just blow up one day or just internalize it all, neither of those options is good for a healthy R.

I know in my situation, there were things that I was doing (or wasn't doing) that should have been obvious to me that my wife was having issues with, but she never communicated her unhappiness with anything, and I didn't take the time to reflect on myself (nor did I really have the understanding of what types of things to reflect on).

On the other hand, I had issues with her putting our son before me, I had expressed this to her and she blew it off. While she knew I didn't like it, I failed to communicate with her how it really made me feel, and instead I just withdrew from her, actually said to myself several times that I would just have to wait until my son went to college to get my Wife back. Not a good way to have a healthy relationship.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/02/18 05:21 AM
Thanks, Coconut. My H would not communicate his feelings to me, although I encouraged him to try. If I had some issue with him, I would try to explain it, and it was always a one-sided (my side) conversation....which left me feeling bad and with unmet emotional needs. I finally stopped trying to get him to talk about his feelings when he told me it was as painful for him to express, as holding my feelings inside were painful to me.

We have never had meaningful conversations like I saw in my parents and between other adults. He still doesn't carry on a discussion with me, and it still hurts, but I just try to adapt the best that I can and not take it personally. He doesn't really carry on conversations with other people that much. It's just not so noticeable, b/c he responds to them. With me, he'd just looked straight ahead.....toward the TV screen. I'm not stretching it a bit.

Ironically, the main thing I have always craved in my MR was intimate conversation, or pillow talk. I needed that special moment with my H when first going to bed, where a couple lay in each other's arms and talk. It may lead to making love, or they may just fall asleep.

My H was always addicted to TV and he would sit up at night watching it until he'd finally pass out, while I lay in our bed alone. I've never personally known another couple quite like us, but I suppose they exist. It ruined our intimacy, for me. It left me feeling lonely, neglected, and resentful. If he wanted sex, I would always know.....b/c he would follow me to bed, and as soon as sex was over, he would get right back up to watch more TV. I pleaded with him to just compromise, b/c I felt it would improve our MR. His answer was always that he just wasn't ready to go to bed. But why could he not go to bed until I fell asleep and then he could he get up and watch TV if he still wasn't ready to sleep. I mean, he would not even try to compromise about it. I tried sitting up later, but he still would not give up his TV time to be with me.

I got away from the initial subject, but I do appreciate your comments. In my case, it was definitely a source of resentment.
Posted By: hoosjim Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/02/18 09:44 AM
Sandi, this is great stuff, as always. I know you put a lot of your personal background into some of your earlier posts, but it is not always easy to sift out (and I assume for you not always easy to post about.) However, I think it is really, really helpful... Not everyone of course, but certainly a lot of people will be able to find a little of their own situation in yours, and I think that helps the insights and advice resonate a little more, as well as connect as more than just faceless message board posters.

Thanks again!
Posted By: Mav82 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/02/18 10:33 AM
Hey Sindi,

Your knowledge is gold for us men. I would very appreciate if you would visit my thread and give me your advice. My situation is a bit weird one.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2773399#Post2773399

Thanks in advance!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/02/18 11:56 AM
I appreciate your words, Jim. And, I want to say something I meant to add earlier. This is not a list of complaints that women may have about their H's. To me, complaints are when he forgets to set out the heavy trash, doesn't diaper the baby while she's cooking a meal, etc. These are serious ways he causes the breakdown in his MR.... In which he can lose his W's attraction, cause deep resentment in her heart, and eventually lose her respect. These are ways that the H has a direct negative influence on the relationship with his W.

If examined, some of these negative contributions can be found in SSM's. The H may "think" his W has sexual LD, and he may even be correct. But many times the reason that really caused her LD can be found in him. Even in MR's where the couple may have regular sex, but the W is "doing it" for his sake.....or b/c he is easier to live with......can find a woman who is enduring unresolved issues that started and ends with her H. These are things that affect the relationship long term. Attraction definitely affects her feminine response to him.

Many women endure an unhappiness that can be linked to her H's behavior. These are all about him, and they are choices he makes.......but they affect her and her children.

And gentlemen, let me assure you that I realize there is a list for women, too. However, I feel more comfortable trying to inform men about the things that affect the women in long term relationships.

For those who believe in the Old Testament, you will see how God made the woman's desire unto her H, and He gave the man the awesome responsibility for being the head. For which much is given, much is required! He designed woman's loving feelings for her H to be tied to her respect for him.

The New Testament teaches the Christian W to submit herself to her H. (Many misintrepret the meaning of the King James version). She is being instructed to respect her H. However, look at the H's instruction. He is told to love his W like Christ loves His Church. Honestly, I think the H's responsibility is much greater. Maybe that is why God made him the initiator and made her the responder. Oddly enough, the H's number one need is to be admired, and the W's number one need is to be cherished. The scripture tells us how. Thousands upon thousands of religious and secular books have been written to tell us how. Apparently, there are a lot of us that don't read, or we don't apply what we read. frown
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/04/18 02:02 PM
Originally Posted By: Tread
Sandi,

Just reading this list, I don't no any man that doesn't fall into any of these categories. My own parents have been happily married for 38 years. And I can see my own father in some of the things listed. From what I can tell our WS have unrealistic expectations. Don't get me wrong, I can see how some of these can be serious issues. But a lot of these WS leave their H for the reasons listed to end up with OM who are far worse. So why do these WS have this love and respect for OM?


I held off on posting for a few days because this was my reaction exactly. I think this serves well as some things for husbands to be aware of and strive for. Saying these are reasons why WW's lose respect for H's doesn't quite fit for me.

I'd say they are excuses for why a WW loses respect for her H. Each partner is going to have pain in their heart because reality doesn't live up to their inner desires, their fantasy, and their expectations. Being married is a full time job of grieving for the loss of what you wished was possible in this lifetime, and instead focusing on appreciation for what you have. It is about focusing on what you can do to be the best spouse to your partner you can be. And it is about forgiving their shortcomings.

If you do this daily, day after day, letting go of resentment, forgiving, appreciating, and serving your spouse, right around the time that you give up on the idea your spouse could ever meet any of your needs they do something that surprises you. Something that makes you realize how deeply they care. Something that blows you away. Something that makes you remember why you got married and why marriage is worth it.

So when a WW loses respect for her H, to me that is on the WW, not on the H. She failed to do her part of forgiving, letting go of her expectations, finding her own happiness in the appreciation for what she has. This is not a failing of the H for failing to live up to standards that no man can meet. I'd say the same things regarding the selfish choices of walk away husbands. Expectations have gone through the roof and the result hasn't been that marriages have become better, it has been the revolving door of broken homes that come from people looking for the greener grass.

As for why they turn to other people, it isn't about quality. It is about fantasy and pleasure. When a WW abandons a marriage they are down. They have just decided to 'break the rules' by breaking their vows. So they find themselves outside of their faith and depressed, so they figure it's time to do whatever they think will bring them their happiness. Since they've always followed the rules before and they are breaking them now, it makes sense why they choose to do many things that are out of their normal character. OMs 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5. Drugs and alcohol. Partying. Spending. Whatever they can do to change how they feel. Same with the MLC or WAHs. But no, quality in an affair partner is not on their list, they are in straight up pleasure seeking mode.

Again, I do think this list is valuable for men that are married. As long as you have a committed partner these are noble qualities to strive for, and this is where our focus should be as men (as opposed to harboring resentment for how our wives fall short on their lists). They are good things to consider when identifying 180s for those standing by their M during a family crisis. But unfortunately for most women these qualities have evolved from ideals to expectations to deal breakers.
Posted By: petri Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 05:26 AM
I agree with Zues here. We tend to miss our own shortcomings and easily point the finger at other ones. On the fantasy element I think SoMe has a big influence. People showing a little fragment of their life and suddenly their life seems to be perfect all of the time. At least that's what I saw in my W. Compairing our life to other peoples life in SoMe.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 06:25 AM
Quote:
I'd say they are excuses for why a WW loses respect for her H.

It is about focusing on what you can do to be the best spouse to your partner you can be. And it is about forgiving their shortcomings.


I am a little surprised by Your and Thread's reaction about most men having these behaviors. Whether this list seems to be legitimate reasons or flimsy excuses, they are nevertheless, what I have seen, read, and heard that destroy a W's respect.

I can't completely agree about the disrespect being on the wife. Yes, in many things we need to forgive and move forward instead of holding resentment. However, the behaviors on this list are those that continue, in spite of the W's pleas, forgiveness, etc. Some actions can be seen more serious than others, but each one can take a toll in destroying the respect of the wife, if the H refuses to correct it. I have seen several long suffering women who had mean husbands, and no matter how sweet and forgiving the W was, it had no bearing on his behavior.

I agree about the importance of forgiving shortcomings. However, I do not see the items on this list as "shortcomings". Except for maybe very few, they are the H's intentional, ongoing actions upon his W and/or children. Forgiveness does not change or fix a problem in the other spouse.

Quote:
So when a WW loses respect for her H, to me that is on the WW, not on the H. She failed to do her part of forgiving, letting go of her expectations, finding her own happiness in the appreciation for what she has.


Compare it to setting boundaries. I won't live in a MR where my H abuses me. If I state this boundary to my H and he continues to be abusive.....are you saying it is my fault, b/c I failed to do my part of forgiving and letting go of my expectations of living in a safe environment? What if he turns to criminal activity or places our family in danger? Is that my fault? If he refuses to work and provide for the family, is it b/c I did not appreciate him enough? I believe each spouse is responsible for their own actions.

Quote:
So when a WW loses respect for her H, to me that is on the WW, not on the H. She failed to do her part of forgiving, letting go of her expectations, finding her own happiness in the appreciation for what she has. This is not a failing of the H for failing to live up to standards that no man can meet.


First of all, there is nothing on that list that is unrealistic and that every man couldn't meet. Each item involves his will. If he couldn't help it, then his W would tend to be more forgiving. Perhaps you see it as unrealistic standards or expectations, but as a woman, I see nothing that requires supernatural abilities. And, I don't believe all men are guilty of these actions.

I wonder if you are seeing this as a case where the H does one of these acts carelessly and the W refuses to forgive him. If so, then I did not make myself clear. If the H tries to do better and his W will not forgive him, etc., then of course, that's a problem that leads to resentment. However, he should not be excused to mistreat her and say it is on her.

Quote:
Again, I do think this list is valuable for men that are married. As long as you have a committed partner these are noble qualities to strive for, and this is where our focus should be as men (as opposed to harboring resentment for how our wives fall short on their lists). They are good things to consider when identifying 180s for those standing by their M during a family crisis. But unfortunately for most women these qualities have evolved from ideals to expectations to deal breakers.


BTW, I realized I had to forgive my H for the things I resented for so many years, and I chose to show him respect. I don't think the couple can go forward without forgiveness and change.

I appreciate your thoughts, and I hope more people will join in the conversation.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 07:24 AM
I know for me my W was not happy with me becoming a slob, not taking care of the outside of the house, etc. Also sitting around the house watching TV. Those 2 components of loosing respect played a role in my sitch. My W did nag on me to change this but at the time I did not take her naggin seriously and it wasn't until a week before BD, were she really went off on me that I understood how serious she was. I remember making the statement to her that I didn't know how important this was to you and I am sorry.......her response was I guess it is.

So for me and my W, IMO, it comes down to bad communication. This is also stuff that I can easily fix now knowing how important it is to her. Maybe I will get the chance smile
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 07:47 AM
I wonder if men ever take their W's nagging seriously......b/c they joke about it, complain about it, ignore it, etc. Do they think it's just a component of the female and she can't help herself? And then when men come to the board, they cry b/c the W didn't tell him the problem in a way he could understand. crazy Whatever, I agree it is bad communication.

If the W has brought it up once, then I would say to take it seriously. I mean, how many times do you think you need to tell someone before they begin to take you seriously?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 07:57 AM
Quote:
I agree with Zues here. We tend to miss our own shortcomings and easily point the finger at other ones. On the fantasy element I think SoMe has a big influence. People showing a little fragment of their life and suddenly their life seems to be perfect all of the time.


Maybe I'm the one missing the point here, but let me try to clarify that the list has nothing to do with a fantasy or her wanting him to be like some other guy. It is his own consistent bad behavior that causes her to lose respect for him before she ever becomes a wayward or a WAW.
Posted By: Vanilla Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 08:08 AM
Actually H could be replaced with W in the list. And some of the behaviours induce fear and who wants to live in fear?

Frankly it's about being an adult who takes responsibility for who they are. Makes a mistake and resolves it. Puts their spouse above all others, provides, loves and commits to their R above all else.

It's emotional maturity.

And looking after oneself physically and mentally, being fit for life.

For all your life.

Oh and great sex helps!

V
Posted By: petri Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 08:37 AM
Sandi: I do see myself on that list. I don't disagree on the fact the things on the list aren't valid. But could the ultimate reason be the fantasy that the OP would fulfill all their dreams? Of course there is the reason to start dreaming about something else. And your list is more about that I think. Just an opinion. Not trying to know better or anything...
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 08:45 AM

Quote:
I wonder if men ever take their W's nagging seriously......b/c they joke about it, complain about it, ignore it, etc. Do they think it's just a component of the female and she can't help herself?


For me I was naive......getting D never crossed my mind because we had never talked about it. I just thought that all W's had complaints and this was just part of being married. OH boy did I learn! She tried to communicate to me the way she knew how but now I know that most women are not that direct.

That is why I am hopeful that my W will work through it.

Quote:
Whatever, I agree it is bad communication


The funny thing is I thought my W and I communicated well with each other smile

Quote:
If the W has brought it up once, then I would say to take it seriously. I mean, how many times do you think you need to tell someone before they begin to take you seriously?


Once is enough for me going forward smile. It won't happen again with this 1 or someone else in the future.

Naive I was but I was not a bad husband or father.
Posted By: Zues126 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/05/18 09:06 AM
Quote:
First of all, there is nothing on that list that is unrealistic and that every man couldn't meet. Each item involves his will. If he couldn't help it, then his W would tend to be more forgiving. Perhaps you see it as unrealistic standards or expectations, but as a woman, I see nothing that requires supernatural abilities. And, I don't believe all men are guilty of these actions.


I appreciate the conversation Sandi.

I can't speak for all men, so I'll just speak for myself. Personally I know that I can't live up to that list of standards. Reading it felt as if I was looking at a job description and the "required experience" began listing degrees and prior titles that were well beyond me so I didn't bother sending in a resume.

Quote:
Compare it to setting boundaries. I won't live in a MR where my H abuses me. If I state this boundary to my H and he continues to be abusive.....are you saying it is my fault, b/c I failed to do my part of forgiving and letting go of my expectations of living in a safe environment? What if he turns to criminal activity or places our family in danger? Is that my fault? If he refuses to work and provide for the family, is it b/c I did not appreciate him enough? I believe each spouse is responsible for their own actions.


I agree each person has to have personal boundaries they don't waiver on. I think we can all agree that physical abuse and infidelity are crossing those boundaries and are behaviors that can't be forgiven and accepted.

Then it just becomes a matter of how many deal breaker boundaries there are. If those boundaries help people stay out of harms way and protect themselves, great. If they lead to a string of failed relationships, disappointments, stories of abusive ex's, and frustration that they can't find the person they know is out there for them, at some point it begs the question of whether these boundaries are serving or hindering that person.

This thread is precious information and does speak to the heart of the matter of divorce though. When I entered my marriage I was naive and didn't know about this list of boundaries and requirements. I thought marriage was forever barring abuse and adultery so I felt shocked, betrayed, and heartbroken when my XW left me.

Since then I've come to understand I don't meet today's relationship standards. This has been one of the most important lessons I've learned from my experience and these forums. To the two women I've had long term relationships with I have been dumped as the abuser because I didn't meet expectations. From my perspective they are unrealistic. To me it stops mattering which is 'right or wrong', the moral is I know I'm not a good fit for a modern relationship. Knowing this I have chosen to remain single so I don't hurt myself or others trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I'm sure it's easy to say 'man up and become a better man so you fit everything on this list, it's not that hard'. I agree if a man is able to do that then that is outstanding. For those that can't it at least helps to be aware of this so we can act accordingly.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/06/18 12:33 AM
Quote:
Sandi: I do see myself on that list. I don't disagree on the fact the things on the list aren't valid. But could the ultimate reason be the fantasy that the OP would fulfill all their dreams? Of course there is the reason to start dreaming about something else. And your list is more about that I think. Just an opinion. Not trying to know better or anything...


This is not about WW's or WAW's. The list has nothing to do with fantasies, an affair, or OM. Scratch that from your brain just for a minute. These are not excuses to find someone better. I don't want the discussion to go that direction. This is not about the W or her behavior. I am talking about the actions H's take that loses his W's attraction and respect. Just b/c he treats her in one of these ways does not mean she is going to run out and find another man! Some women may get a D and some may choose to live with it.

Someone asked me how H's lose respect, and my goal was to list some of those ways. Whether it seems fair or not, is a matter of opinion. Whether it is seen as a list of standards, excuses, or whatever........these are ways that harm a woman's respect for her H. How she chooses to respond is another subject.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/06/18 04:36 AM
Good discussion points

although I could say the opposite of this

Quote:
* The H does most of the housework. (The following was taken from another source): "A common mistake that modern men make in marriages is to copy the fictional relationships they see on TV drama shows or sitcoms, follow the advice of politically correct TV talk show hosts and believe the advice from random articles online that are not written by male relationship experts who are actually in a successful, happy relationship with a woman".


A husband might do NONE of the housework and that could be a cause too.

In the end LOVE IS A CHOICE.

Relationships are 50/50 and if both sides do not choose LOVE then the relationship is in trouble.

So to me many times the end of relationships are due to the fact that one side chooses it, and yes there may have been transgressions by the other side but they could have won the lottery and stood on there head and nothing would have helped.

So the bottom line is how do you keep choosing to love?
Posted By: petri Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/06/18 11:02 PM
After putting my head in to all this marriage/relationship/divorce info that is out there, I would ask how do you get someone to realize that love is a choice. Mainly people seem to think that love is a feeling and either it is there or it isn't. And it should be like it was in the beginning. The butterflies in stomach etc...
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 01/07/18 01:11 PM
Originally Posted By: petri
I would ask how do you get someone to realize that love is a choice.

You can only choose on your side of the street.
You can not make a choice for someone else.
Posted By: along Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 03/19/18 07:45 AM
sandi2, What would you say about my sitch. WW affair partner is a old high school boyfriend that her family does not like due to things that happened in high school. My WW is preparing to file and has rented an apartment. I am sure you would describe me as a nice guy and I know that there is some truth to that. With my limited time to effect some change I am looking for advice on how to proceed. we have decided on how we are splitting marital property including horses and I have agreed to allow her to leave the trailer and her horse at the MR home with her paying a boarding /storage fee. Really been thinking that I should make her find someplace else for these items, but for now I need the trailer and truck when I want to ride. your advice would be welcome. You can get all my sitch on the newcomer forum http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...105#Post2782105
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 03/19/18 08:16 AM
Hi, thanks for responding. I thought this thread had died, so glad I saw your post. smile

I will catch up on your thread and post there.
Posted By: OrangeK Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 04/09/18 04:58 AM
Is there a living version of this thread? LBH with a WAW in an affair, living with Affair Partner. SOOOOO many questions
Posted By: anon374 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 04/19/18 02:08 AM
Hi Sandi2,
I've been pouring through your threads and have some questions.
We have blended financials, and WW is looking to start a new business.
One of your suggestions is to basically split finances to put her on her own - remove the 'safety net' as it were.
Though I understand your point (if you want out, here's what it looks like), but at the same time, because of the particular point in time of financial stress as it is (her stress), I fear coming across as bullying financially.

During one of our bigger fights, I made the mistake of telling her something to the effect of 'good luck sustaining your lifestyle the OM'. She has brought up many times since how much that hurt her and how she now questions whether she's staying around for the wrong reasons (financial) instead of the right ones (love/commitment).

Would love to get your thoughts.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 04/19/18 03:53 AM
Originally Posted By: anon374
Hi Sandi2,
I've been pouring through your threads and have some questions.
We have blended financials, and WW is looking to start a new business.
One of your suggestions is to basically split finances to put her on her own - remove the 'safety net' as it were.
Though I understand your point (if you want out, here's what it looks like), but at the same time, because of the particular point in time of financial stress as it is (her stress), I fear coming across as bullying financially.

During one of our bigger fights, I made the mistake of telling her something to the effect of 'good luck sustaining your lifestyle the OM'. She has brought up many times since how much that hurt her and how she now questions whether she's staying around for the wrong reasons (financial) instead of the right ones (love/commitment).

Would love to get your thoughts.


anon, one of the things I learned early in my sitch, which doesn't sound to unlike yours (by the way your initial post was blank, so you might want to go back to your thread and give more details), is that WWs are in full rebellion against the MR. Therefore, they will look for reasons they shouldn't stay.

My W also made the same statement early on after BD. She was complimenting me on being an excellent provider. And that she knew her plan of getting a job, moving out, and getting a D would be a major step down financially. But that "she didn't want to stay for the wrong reasons".

This is rebellion! People stay married for all kinds of reasons, especially through the rough times. Sometimes it is because they are in a good place financial. Or they are comfortable. Or they are just too lazy to make a change. WWs rebel against these reasons. They talk themselves out of these reasons. So they say things like "yes I am taken care of financially, but that is not the right reason to stay married".

This is why reason and logic do not work with WWs. They are justifying their decision to cheat, or leave, or go GGW, or a combination of the three. All other logic, "but it will hard on the kids!", "It will hurt financially", "We'll have to give up the house we both love!", "The Church will look down on us!", "What about our friends?", fall on deaf ears.

That is what Sandi's "remove the safety net" is all about. Saying and thinking "I don't need financial security" and actually living without it are two different animals. Sandi's rules are all about getting the WW to wake up to the reality of her choices. To help blow away the fantasy fog she is in!

Go back and read my past posts where I describe what started to shake my W from her fantasy fog. Reality is the only thing that can break that, and sometimes even reality doesn't work.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 04/19/18 04:58 AM
Hi, I saw where your initial thread did not show up on your thread. There have been a few other posters having the same problem lately. Keep trying, b/c we need to know your situation.

Taken from your thread:
Quote:
The wayward wife thread has been super insightful, and actually is quite applicable.
Reading through those items though, they're rough.

"Immediately separate the sleeping arrangements"
One of my short-term actionable goals to view if the marriage is progressing is that we go to bed together twice a week.

I see the point of showing the WW what losing the H looks like, but what's the consensus when that is simultaneously something that is viewed as progress in the marriage restoration?
As I write this, I feel like maybe it's only restoration if the A has stopped?


If you have a wayward W, more than likely she will try to have the best of both worlds, which is her affair and the benefits she gets from being legally M with you. She doesn't want to be your W, but she wants the nice things that come with the territory. We call it eating cake.

Every situation is a little different, but most WW's have a lot in common.......and that's their mindset. The WW threads were written to share a little of what I've experienced and learned.

I have to agree that as long as the W is in an A, the MR will not be restored. How could it? Certain aspects of the M may appear to improve......as long as the WW is getting everything she wants, but her feelings for the H will not genuinely change if she has OM. If you read the first WW thread, you saw me explain how a W's loving feelings for her H is tied to her level of respect for him. Having an A is the epitome of disrespect. In most cases, that disrespect did not come overnight. It took time.

Gaining her respect for you as a man and as her H should be the goal, IMHO. The decions and actions you choose must be seen in a light of respect by her. Any other efforts to reconcile seem to be a waste of time, IMHO. At best, you would be like roommates in a sexless relationship. Just b/c a woman stays in the M, doesn't mean she loves her H......and it doesn't mean the M is restored. That is one reason I try to encourage H's to start with the root problem......which is her loss of attraction.....which was brought about through loss of respect.....which came from resentment, unmet emotional needs, etc. Her negative feelings eventually breeds open rebellion (i.e. an affair).

It's no secret that men and women think differently. Having lots of sex during a time that you know your W has OM.......is not a sign things are getting better in your MR. Without reading your story, I really can't respond much more than that, as to your statement, "One of my short-term actionable goals to view if the marriage is progressing is that we go to bed together twice a week". What is the point in twice a week? Are you trying to warm her up to gradually get to a full week? It doesn't work that way with a wayward and where there's an affair.

A wife's level of respect affects her attraction button, which affects her level of sexual desire. If she has additional health issues......that can lower her sex drive even more.

Separation of sleeping arrangements is not an absolute must in DBing. It depends upon whether or not she knows that you are aware of her affair, and how unruly she has become, etc. But if your W is pushing for you to sleep elsewhere, then my suggestion is that you should remain in the marital bedroom and let the one who wants out of the MR sleep elsewhere. I am so sick of seeing H's get push down into their basements and alienated from their family! There should be no question who the cheater, liar, deceiver, and betrayer is in the sitch. As the head of the home, it is important that the man remains in the marital bedroom, and maintain his position as the leader of the household, IMHO. Bottom line here is that every person makes their own decisions for what they believe is best in their situation. I'm not going to tell any man to get into a physical altercation just to stay in the MBR. That's pretty much defeating the original purpose, if the cops carry him to jail. frown

Quote:
One of your suggestions is to basically split finances to put her on her own - remove the 'safety net' as it were.
Though I understand your point (if you want out, here's what it looks like), but at the same time, because of the particular point in time of financial stress as it is (her stress), I fear coming across as bullying financially.


I tell the LBS to protect themselves. I have seen WW's completely wipe out every cent in the H's bank account, max out the CC's, etc........rather than paying their bills. She'll lie to his face and say she had to buy food or kids clothes or whatever.......and she's taking his money and spending it on selfish things. He cannot afford to trust a wayward W. Just b/c he wants a loving, trustworthy MR......and just b/c she once was honest..........does not make her a woman he can trust now. Let it be a warning. Him putting more trust in her........does not make her trustworthy. Cheaters lie. They cannot be trusted with your money.

Do not financially enable her wayward lifestyle. Since I don't know about your particular sitch, I can't say much more. Why would you feel like a financial bully if you were protecting your money and the welfare of the family? If she wants out of the M, it's not your responsibility to figure out how she'll make financially. That's on her.

Quote:
During one of our bigger fights, I made the mistake of telling her something to the effect of 'good luck sustaining your lifestyle the OM'. She has brought up many times since how much that hurt her and how she now questions whether she's staying around for the wrong reasons (financial) instead of the right ones (love/commitment).


There are different cards of manipulation the WW will play. The two most common cards are the guilt card and the control card. She will either try to make you feel so guilty that you will cave to what she wants, or she'll accuse you of trying to control her......pushing you into relenting for whatever she wants. Without even reading your story, I can tell she is playing those two cards with you.

She has brought up several times how much that has hurt her, huh? Do you see the irony in it? How does she think her affair makes you feel? The WW is motivated by selfishness. Never doubt for a second that she is not contemplating what benefits her more.
Posted By: anon374 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 04/19/18 08:09 AM
Hi sandi2,
Thanks for the reply. It looks like my posts are not making it through for some reason (my initial thread is littered with blank posts from me now).

I wrote it all out in word first, because I have had historically bad luck with bbcode forums, and was concerned something like this would happen. I have all my details, but not sure how to get them into the post since it keeps showing up blank. Hoping an admin will identify the issue.

I agree with your assessment, and can definitely appreciate that my apprehension could 100% be that it's uncomfortable recommendations (even if it's good - it's uncomfortable to consider).

Hopefully I can get my story up and see what if anything that changes.
I'm sure like many before me, I feel like my situation is unique (I know it's not) and that I surely will yield special recommendations (I'd be surprised).
Posted By: Cory09 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 06/13/18 03:02 PM
Hi Sandi

I've read tons and tons of posts about how or why WW lost respect for H and have a pretty good understanding about why this happened in my own situation. My question is how do you earn that respect back from WW when you are separated. My wife had an A (1 night stand) and immediately dropped the bomb the next day. She has her head down, steamrolling to a D completely distracting herself from feeling anything. She is definitely the WW you have described in your posts. She is void of feelings and has pathetic pity on me that she hurt me, yes I'm working on my Nice Guy Traits..Thank-you for any insight on how to get her out of her fog
Posted By: LoneWlf Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 06/13/18 10:12 PM
Continue to focus on you- be the best you possible. Continue to GAL and find ways to improve yourself. Whenever there are any interactions with W make sure you present the best you. Wear nice clothes use a good cologne. Shave - Let her see that you are in the process of taking care of yourself and moving on.Always remain upbeat and positive. Good luck on your journey.
Posted By: OrangeK Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 06/28/18 05:21 AM
Sandi,

What typically causes the "Shine" to fall off of OM?

What about in WW's that get D'd vs. ones that dont?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 06/29/18 03:25 AM
Quote:
What typically causes the "Shine" to fall off of OM?


I think it can be a variety of things, depending on his sitch.

In a typical WW case, she is fogged out with her fantasy. When reality begins to break through the fantasy, she will see more clearly.

For example, if the affair partners are pushed together and have to deal with day-to-day reality stuff, it can quickly remove the thrill and passion that a secret affair offers. She starts seeing a side of him that was not obvious during the height of their secret fling. After all, he was partly responsible for breaking up a M, so it's not as if he is some "prize of a man". He'll start slipping. She'll start seeing.

For the WW who does not have a mental health issue, the fog will start to lift and she can see what she may have previously chose to overlook.

Quote:
What about in WW's that get D'd vs. ones that dont?


I don't think it matters, as far as the WW seeing the shine leave OM. She's chasing a fantasy. If she divorces her H and marries the OM before her fog lifts, then she is in for a sad, sad awakening when she discovers OM is not the man of her dreams after all.

As I have previously stated on your threads, after reading more information, I have come to suspect your W has a serious mental flaw. Comparing her to the "typical" WW........seems a bit pointless. (Hope that doesn't sound cold). Seeing her as a WW, gives false hope that she could come out of her fog and eventually work her way back to the H. I just don't believe this is the case with your W. I don't think she is in a fog, or chasing a fantasy. I don't think she is addicted to the feelings of limerence. She chooses her victim, uses him for some selfish purpose, then moves on to her next victim.

In the case of your W, it is not waywardness, but a much more severe psychological issue.

This is JMHO, for whatever it is worth.
Posted By: neffer Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/16/18 02:45 PM
Hi Sandi. I just want to thank you for spreading your light on this site. Thank you.
Posted By: equalzr Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/29/18 04:50 AM
Thanks Sandi.

I knew that my wife had lost respect for me over the years. Reading that list put it front and center. The story fits the script, I paid for everything while she worked on hers masters, and she eventually took over when she landed a great job, and then I became the SAHD. Eventually resentment set in, and I think she saw me as less than a man for it. She definitely lost respect and attraction for me as a result. Now I have a WW who is middle of a MLC. She conveniently forgets everything I have done.

Im worried my W may have some other issues. Shes probably apologized to me 2 times in 20 years, and those were half hearted. I dont see how she could ever come out of a MLC with an A, and show full repentence, admit everything, and seek forgiveness(even over a long peruod of time).
Posted By: DavidUK Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/29/18 10:46 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2

Reasons women lose attraction and respect for their H:

* The H is a control freak. This goes beyond a healthy interest or concern. He wants to control every aspect of the W (what she does, where she goes, who she talks to, what she wears, when she can visit her parents, etc.).


W has claimed this but it isn't true. I've just tried to be a responsible parent getting them to bed on time, healthy meals etc. I was also concerned that we didn't spend enough time together (1 night out in 6 months) so wanted W to make time for us.

Quote
* H is emotionally insecure. He is jealous, suspicious, fears, worries, expects the worst case scenario, gets anxious, etc. He doubts himself as a man. He needs constant assurances from his W that everything is fine.


W has claimed this but I now know my gut feeling had been right because W was telling lies.

Quote
* was financially supporting her schooling, and paying their bills. After her career takes off, she begins to see him having a lesser important job, with lesser responsibility, and lesser income. We often see this scenario play out when the H is a SAHD. In most cases....the W's attraction and respect will begin to fade.


Yep. I was supporting her career then I became a SAHD whilst also trying to work. W didn't value it and in fact seemed to be jealous, resented me, and undermined me in front of the kids.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 03:25 PM
Quote
Im worried my W may have some other issues. Shes probably apologized to me 2 times in 20 years, and those were half hearted. I dont see how she could ever come out of a MLC with an A, and show full repentence, admit everything, and seek forgiveness(even over a long peruod of time).


Stubborn pride is a terrible thing in a relationship. From the stories I've read over the years, many women try to pick up where the MR left off when they became involved in an A. They just want to slither in under the back door and not have to apologize or own their horrible behavior. They go back in, still blaming the LBS and still have the bad attitude, coldness, etc. This is where the LBS should push the brakes and say, "Hold up, b/c it's not that simple anymore". The LBS should have certain stipulations before the wayward spouse can resume their place in the MR. IMHO, this would be easier to acquire, if the couple are not living under the same roof at the time. It's much harder if they are already living together.

I hope you guys will pay close attention, please. I've seen those who just wanted the wayward spouse back, regardless if there was an apology, a talk, transparency plan, MC......or anything. They never required anything from their wayward spouse. Well, guess what? They were treated like garbage! If you don't set certain requirements for a reconciliation, and she's already living under the same roof with you..........then you probably will never get it at a later time. You cannot make this too easy for a wayward. They need to work to get back what they had. Speaking as a former WW, I can tell you men that she's not going to respect you whatsoever if you don't require that she take responsibility for her affair, apologize, answer any questions you may have about the affair, and anything else that you need in order to feel safe with her. If you don't require anything from her, you will be living in an unhappy MR from then on.

I've seen cases where the WW would try to slip back in without apologizing or anything, and the LBH should have told her that he would not agree to reconcile until she could show him she was serious about doing whatever it took to save their M. In some instances, she needed IC before resuming the MR......b/c her head may still be messed up, and b/c she has messed up her life and the lives of her family. Some couples need professional MC to get back to a healthy enough place to reconcile.

I'm just saying not to be too quick to take the wayward spouse back......just to have them back again. That is not what saves the M. The work is not automatically over when they come back. In fact, it's just starting, especially for the wayward.

BTW, thanks for all the replies to the thread.
Posted By: DB346 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 04:04 PM
Sandi,

Thank you for that. I don't really think my WW will come back and want to R, but this post really helped me confirm that I am right to not want to let her just come back home if she does come knocking one day. I know her A will fall apart, but I've reached a point that I want to move on and hopefully find someone that actually wants to be with me. I'm definitely still mourning the loss of my marriage/family, but I don't miss her anymore. As much as I would love for my son to have both parents together every day, I definitely couldn't take her back the way she is OR the way she was before BD. Your perspective on WWs has been so helpful, and has made it a lot easier for me to see her and our situation for what it is.
Posted By: equalzr Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Quote
Im worried my W may have some other issues. Shes probably apologized to me 2 times in 20 years, and those were half hearted. I dont see how she could ever come out of a MLC with an A, and show full repentence, admit everything, and seek forgiveness(even over a long peruod of time).


Stubborn pride is a terrible thing in a relationship. From the stories I've read over the years, many women try to pick up where the MR left off when they became involved in an A. They just want to slither in under the back door and not have to apologize or own their horrible behavior. They go back in, still blaming the LBS and still have the bad attitude, coldness, etc. This is where the LBS should push the brakes and say, "Hold up, b/c it's not that simple anymore". The LBS should have certain stipulations before the wayward spouse can resume their place in the MR. IMHO, this would be easier to acquire, if the couple are not living under the same roof at the time. It's much harder if they are already living together.

I hope you guys will pay close attention, please. I've seen those who just wanted the wayward spouse back, regardless if there was an apology, a talk, transparency plan, MC......or anything. They never required anything from their wayward spouse. Well, guess what? They were treated like garbage! If you don't set certain requirements for a reconciliation, and she's already living under the same roof with you..........then you probably will never get it at a later time. You cannot make this too easy for a wayward. They need to work to get back what they had. Speaking as a former WW, I can tell you men that she's not going to respect you whatsoever if you don't require that she take responsibility for her affair, apologize, answer any questions you may have about the affair, and anything else that you need in order to feel safe with her. If you don't require anything from her, you will be living in an unhappy MR from then on.

I've seen cases where the WW would try to slip back in without apologizing or anything, and the LBH should have told her that he would not agree to reconcile until she could show him she was serious about doing whatever it took to save their M. In some instances, she needed IC before resuming the MR......b/c her head may still be messed up, and b/c she has messed up her life and the lives of her family. Some couples need professional MC to get back to a healthy enough place to reconcile.

I'm just saying not to be too quick to take the wayward spouse back......just to have them back again. That is not what saves the M. The work is not automatically over when they come back. In fact, it's just starting, especially for the wayward.

BTW, thanks for all the replies to the thread.




Thank you for all the time and candidness you have invested here Sandi.

Oddly enough, Im coming to the point where I realize it would be her job to earn me back if it ever came to that point. I wasnt a bad husband to begin with, and I initially addressed every issue she had with me before I knew she was in a MLC. The MLC explains why none of those changes made her happy, because she doesnt want me to make her happy.

My wife definitely is prideful, selfish(she admits it), and blames me for leaving the door open for her A. This is all so surreal.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 06:08 PM
I want to point out that stubborn pride goes the other way too. Sometimes the LBS's stubborn pride is that they can "win" the WAS back to the MR. I think that is why so many fail at DBing, because their pride tells them they just have to be the best they can be to get their spouse back. No matter how many times they are told that pursuit and pressure do not work. "If I can just convince him/her!" "If I could just get them away from XYZ person (could be OP, or a BFF, or a famiy member)." "If I can just get him/her to understand how sorry I am!"

None of that works after BD.
Posted By: equalzr Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
I want to point out that stubborn pride goes the other way too. Sometimes the LBS's stubborn pride is that they can "win" the WAS back to the MR. I think that is why so many fail at DBing, because their pride tells them they just have to be the best they can be to get their spouse back. No matter how many times they are told that pursuit and pressure do not work. "If I can just convince him/her!" "If I could just get them away from XYZ person (could be OP, or a BFF, or a famiy member)." "If I can just get him/her to understand how sorry I am!"

None of that works after BD.


Is BD specifically referring to D talk, or is it finding out about A too?

Ive never felt like I could win my W back. Unfortunately I always felt like I was running a race that was rigged against, a no win situation of you will. Unfortunately i disnt know about pursuit and distance until I found these forums recently.

When this all first started (for me, not sure when it started for W) I didnt know how to react. I was angry and hurt that she was treating me bad, and dissapearing for long periods of time into the earlt morning. My first thoughts were that she was lying and I was sure she was cheating. No need to come home at 4 am otherwise imo. So i guess i distanced myself initially, but it was all aimlessly done. It didnt help thays for sure, it only seemed to push her closer to OM. I think in most cases the A would run its course, but I think these two are in it for the long haul or so it seems. She has definitely told him what she was missing in her life and like any vulture he seized on that info and swept her off her feet.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by equalzr
Originally Posted by Steve85
I want to point out that stubborn pride goes the other way too. Sometimes the LBS's stubborn pride is that they can "win" the WAS back to the MR. I think that is why so many fail at DBing, because their pride tells them they just have to be the best they can be to get their spouse back. No matter how many times they are told that pursuit and pressure do not work. "If I can just convince him/her!" "If I could just get them away from XYZ person (could be OP, or a BFF, or a famiy member)." "If I can just get him/her to understand how sorry I am!"

None of that works after BD.


Is BD specifically referring to D talk, or is it finding out about A too?

Ive never felt like I could win my W back. Unfortunately I always felt like I was running a race that was rigged against, a no win situation of you will. Unfortunately i disnt know about pursuit and distance until I found these forums recently.

When this all first started (for me, not sure when it started for W) I didnt know how to react. I was angry and hurt that she was treating me bad, and dissapearing for long periods of time into the earlt morning. My first thoughts were that she was lying and I was sure she was cheating. No need to come home at 4 am otherwise imo. So i guess i distanced myself initially, but it was all aimlessly done. It didnt help thays for sure, it only seemed to push her closer to OM. I think in most cases the A would run its course, but I think these two are in it for the long haul or so it seems. She has definitely told him what she was missing in her life and like any vulture he seized on that info and swept her off her feet.


BD is typically the day they drop the D bomb on you. However, finding out about the A could also be BD, or another one.

Their relationship has a very small chance of succeeding. So many reasons for that.If they cheat with you they'll cheat on you....... That which is conceived in deceit will eventually die from deceit.... Things planted in bad soil won't grow....... But maybe theirs will be the rare one that actually works. I've known of a few.

What you really have to decide is whether or not you want to sit around and wait for her, or move on with your life.
Posted By: DB346 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 07/31/18 07:00 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85

What you really have to decide is whether or not you want to sit around and wait for her, or move on with your life.


I know that I have decided that I'm moving on with my life. I'm not necessarily closing the door to her completely, but I'm NOT sitting around and waiting for her. I've dropped the rope and I'm ready to live my own life. If she decides at some point that she wants to do the hard work to build a new relationship together, I will consider it, but I am not going to put my life on hold hoping that her A will end and she will come back to me.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 08/02/18 05:57 PM
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My wife definitely is prideful, selfish(she admits it), and blames me for leaving the door open for her A. This is all so surreal.


I wanted to blame my H for me having an A, too. He was not blameless the downfall of our MR, but there was one person responsible for my A...….her name is Sandi.

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Thank you for all the time and candidness you have invested here Sandi.


Well thank you for the kind words.

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Oddly enough, Im coming to the point where I realize it would be her job to earn me back if it ever came to that point. I wasnt a bad husband to begin with, and I initially addressed every issue she had with me before I knew she was in a MLC. The MLC explains why none of those changes made her happy, because she doesnt want me to make her happy.


Good point, and that's an example of another reason I decided to write about wayward W's and the differences in them from WAW's. With many WAW's, the H can fix the issues his W had with him, and she's willing to work with him to save the M. However, he could fix every issue the wayward had, and it would not phase her. For years, I would read how these poor LBH's would work so hard at correcting every complaint the WW had, only to see her tell him it did not change her feelings. It usually takes the H completely letting go and moving on, before the WW becomes interested. By then, many H's are over it, and don't want to subject themselves to taking a that chance again.
Posted By: Ste7e Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 08/03/18 12:30 AM
Well given that description my WAW is a WW
The whole lack of respect part has been setting in with me.
Posted By: DavidUK Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 08/03/18 10:41 AM
Thank you so much Sandi for your advice on this forum. My W also has major issues with stubborn pride and ego and never apologises to me, so I will try to be aware of what you say if the opportunity should ever arise.
Posted By: Hurt213 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 10/30/18 11:57 AM
Hi Sandi. Thank you so much for your lengthy and very informative perspective on a very tough situation.

Is there any chance, that you might be able to look at my stitch and give your perspective on the matter? I have already been given some very helpful advice, but I am still struggling to find out wether I am dealing with a WAW or a WW. Furthermore I do not know, wether to take the "aggressive path" where I set my foot down and do not pay attention to her needs and basically disconnect myself from her by not letting her know anything about me and my life (hard when we live together), throw her out of the bedroom (we take turns to sleep in another room), move on without being nice and all that..

Ori f it is a WAW where I treat her with respect, love and try to show her, that I am indeed capable of changing, and already did, when I "woke up" the day she left me... I guess you can't call it being in an affair anymore when she left me, however she is doing it openly (Going to OMs place several times a week, sleeping over, or just going for a couple of hours and then returning home), while we are still trying to sell the house and living under the same roof. She is pushing for the house to sell, and she has mentioned that she just want a year to pass some way magical, so this is all in the past and she has moved on with her life... This is stressing her because of the kids and all, but thats basically it...

Im so confused as to how to navigate in this, even though I have read a lot of information that is provided from these forums / the site.



link to my thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2818587&page=1

Thank you so much in advance, and thanks for all the great info you have written here.

H
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 10/30/18 07:24 PM
I would be happy to read your thread and express my thoughts.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/13/18 06:30 PM
Sandi. I am currently in a WW situation. Wife seems to have had a MLC and then went WW. A was an EA until about two months ago and went to PA. When this happened she completely withdrew, moved upstairs. Told me it was over. She led me to believe it was my fault etc. Then I confirmed A was a PA on November 1st. Now she says "Why do you love me? This isnt fixable! Its your fault! I want a D!"

I am very early in my stitch. However, I am GAL, 180 etc. I moved half of savings into my name, got my own checking account, changed my direct deposit etc. Bought myself some new clothes because I lost a ton of weight. I had to use my CC to hire a PI to find out. So CC balance went up. I am not wearing my ring, no texting, talking, pursuing. She kept giving me a hard time about things like if she still had some control. I had to write to her and tell her that she has no control, my actions are my own, how she made me feel and I am done. I advised she can move on if she wants because I am. I advised that I will not file for D. I don't believe in filing for D. I just can't do it. Maybe in the future, but not right now.

I removed all of the pictures from the house of us and put them in her closet, not to hurt her, but because I don't want to see them and I am not her H right now. I have been GAL. She is not contacting me at all and ignores me as well at home. I believe she is still speaking with OM and is "mad" that I interrupted her fantasy. I know he is pursing her still. I caught her right when she went off the deep end into the relationship with OM. He is older, married, has children and grand children. The only way she would have a future with him is if she just gave up everything including her children.

That being said. Should I move out? I want to move out with my kids, but I don't want her to go bat sh*t crazy if I do that. She needs to see consequences. So far the consequences are the children being affected by her withdraw from them emotionally, and them not wanting to live with her and with me completely detaching. It hasnt been long, but I really don't want to live in the same house as her and she will not leave.

I am in a conundrum. If I leave, I will probably have to take legal action such as filing. If I don't, she may not get the consequence she needs and will have her cake and eat it too for as long as she can. I know its early, and I will wait a little while. I want her to see that she isnt welcome at my families homes for the holidays. So she will be alone or with her very small family.

My BIL knows we are having issues but doesnt know specifically what. He actually sees how she is acting so he assumes its on her end. The way she has been acting, everyone notices that its her. This is rough, but the waves of sadness are getting further and further apart.
Posted By: SteveLW Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/13/18 06:56 PM
I know this is for sandi, but no, do not move out. Ask her to. She isn't obligated to (under most jurisdictions) but she is the one cheating, why would you leave?

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I am very early in my stitch. However, I am GAL, 180 etc. I moved half of savings into my name, got my own checking account, changed my direct deposit etc. Bought myself some new clothes because I lost a ton of weight. I had to use my CC to hire a PI to find out. So CC balance went up. I am not wearing my ring, no texting, talking, pursuing. She kept giving me a hard time about things like if she still had some control. I had to write to her and tell her that she has no control, my actions are my own, how she made me feel and I am done. I advised she can move on if she wants because I am. I advised that I will not file for D. I don't believe in filing for D. I just can't do it. Maybe in the future, but not right now.


You don'be believe in filing for D, but you believe in removing your ring? Seems kind of contradictory.

Stay in the house. Make sure you have the MBR. Keep your ring on until you are D'd. Keep doing what you are doing. You can take her cake away without moving out, filing, etc. This paragraph is the problem:

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I am in a conundrum. If I leave, I will probably have to take legal action such as filing. If I don't, she may not get the consequence she needs and will have her cake and eat it too for as long as she can. I know its early, and I will wait a little while. I want her to see that she isnt welcome at my families homes for the holidays. So she will be alone or with her very small family.


This tells me you are doing what you are doing TO TRY AND CONTROL HER. "If I don't, she may not get the consequence she needs". Who cares?! You are done right? that is what you told her. That is what you are trying to show her. But are you doing it for you, or to try to "give her consequences". WAWs are notorious for seeing through manipulation attempts. I characterize it as constantly looking over your shoulder to see what her reaction is. That is what people do when they are doing something to elicit a response from someone else.

Take the focus off of her. Keep it on you. Keep detaching (you are clearly not there yet). Give her the time and space she needs. GAL like a madman. And 180 on any toxic behaviors you may be guilty of.

Relax. Breathe. Take some time. This will resolve itself in time.....its own time. Not yours.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/13/18 08:00 PM
Originally Posted by Steve85
I know this is for sandi, but no, do not move out. Ask her to. She isn't obligated to (under most jurisdictions) but she is the one cheating, why would you leave?

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I am very early in my stitch. However, I am GAL, 180 etc. I moved half of savings into my name, got my own checking account, changed my direct deposit etc. Bought myself some new clothes because I lost a ton of weight. I had to use my CC to hire a PI to find out. So CC balance went up. I am not wearing my ring, no texting, talking, pursuing. She kept giving me a hard time about things like if she still had some control. I had to write to her and tell her that she has no control, my actions are my own, how she made me feel and I am done. I advised she can move on if she wants because I am. I advised that I will not file for D. I don't believe in filing for D. I just can't do it. Maybe in the future, but not right now.


You don'be believe in filing for D, but you believe in removing your ring? Seems kind of contradictory.

Stay in the house. Make sure you have the MBR. Keep your ring on until you are D'd. Keep doing what you are doing. You can take her cake away without moving out, filing, etc. This paragraph is the problem:

Quote
I am in a conundrum. If I leave, I will probably have to take legal action such as filing. If I don't, she may not get the consequence she needs and will have her cake and eat it too for as long as she can. I know its early, and I will wait a little while. I want her to see that she isnt welcome at my families homes for the holidays. So she will be alone or with her very small family.


This tells me you are doing what you are doing TO TRY AND CONTROL HER. "If I don't, she may not get the consequence she needs". Who cares?! You are done right? that is what you told her. That is what you are trying to show her. But are you doing it for you, or to try to "give her consequences". WAWs are notorious for seeing through manipulation attempts. I characterize it as constantly looking over your shoulder to see what her reaction is. That is what people do when they are doing something to elicit a response from someone else.

Take the focus off of her. Keep it on you. Keep detaching (you are clearly not there yet). Give her the time and space she needs. GAL like a madman. And 180 on any toxic behaviors you may be guilty of.

Relax. Breathe. Take some time. This will resolve itself in time.....its own time. Not yours.



Ok, let me rephrase myself. I will not file for divorce. I have not gotten to that point "yet". In the future, when I reach my as of now unknown limit, yes, I will do that. I am not trying to punish her. I just don't want her to think that she can use me as a doormat (while in the house). I am not comfortable wearing my ring right now honestly, it feels like I am being fake, like I am trying to hold onto something that is not true. So I took it off. I honestly don't want to live with her, but I can't make her leave. I would not be filing to punish her, I would have to file or get an attorney or something to protect my rights as a father if I left. That's just a fact with the laws in the state I live in. I can't just take the kids, or just move out alone without putting myself at a legal disadvantage. I would have to actually file for D and submit a parenting plan along with it. That is for my protection, not for her punishment, provided I move out. So for now, I will stay in the house. I am in the MBR so thats good.

I did ask her to leave and she will not. I haven't made any demands or ultimatums. We went to a MC session that was planned before I found out about the A. MC was horrible and one of those "if your unhappy then divorce and be happy" people. I did advise that when she was demanding things of me, that she no longer had the right to do that and asked her to stop. I am absolutely not trying to control her. I understand that she thinks everything is me trying to manipulate her at this point. The actions I have taken recently were just stuff that I did for me. As of right now what she considers toxic is a car that I bought that she initially told me to buy and then got mad when I did. She hates the car but I am not going to make a poor financial decision and just trade it in or sell it, because she will think I am doing that to try and appease her.

The other thing she is pissed off about is that I used the PI to confirm the A and that was some $$$. But its on a card in my name. I will pay it off shortly here. But she has used her CC to buy gifts for the OM and I know. So that is the hypocritical part of her I guess.

Honestly I had already set out on a "bettering" myself path prior to her even starting the EA. She just didnt see it because her focus was on her job and then on the A afterwards. But yes I was in pursuit mode. I was always trying to "fix" things because I was being gas lighted badly. So the biggest change now is that I will just completely detach from her and our marriage. I am a roommate and I will be scarce when she is home, either out with the kids our at the gym or with friends. My will to GAL is strong, even though I am hurt badly.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/14/18 12:30 AM
Another question. I have lost a ton of weight. Therefore I have had to buy new clothes. I went to a budget shop and bought new clothes on my CC. About $120. When I got home today the WW immediately, and with a disgusted tone, asked "did you go shopping again?!?"

I felt she was trying to draw me into an argument and therefore just walked off. I am not going to argue or report to her what I am doing. Is that the right approach? I feel it may have been a bit rude but if I would have answered she would have argued 100%. I refuse to argue.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/14/18 05:59 PM
I request that this get stickied. Sandi's insight towards the WW mindset has been priceless for many of us who are dealing with this.
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/14/18 06:55 PM
Originally Posted by pain18
I request that this get stickied. Sandi's insight towards the WW mindset has been priceless for many of us who are dealing with this.


I suggest that all seven of this series should be read - linked on page one.

Link to the first one is in every first post that I make to every newbie.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/14/18 09:07 PM
Torn I just saw your posts today. I wrote a rather lengthy response and then had some kind of computer error......and lost it. So, I'll try to shorten this one by saying that it seems you have really been on the ball doing a lot of things that indicate you are moving onward, detaching, GAL, etc.

Can you tell us why your kids are saying they don't want to live with their mother? What are their ages? As I'm sure you know, even with full custody, she would still have them sometimes, and they would still be affected by her emotional detachment from them. As the "sane" parent, you have to do what you can to protect them. Just know that most (not all) WW's will fight to the death to prevent their H from getting full custody. Not b/c she really wants the kids that much, but b/c she doesn't want him to win. So, if you should decide to go for full custody, be prepared to die on that battle hill, b/c there's little chance of returning to a MR with her. You have to do what you think is best for your kids, and with your lawyer's legal advice......always. With the painful emotions you are experiencing, it's easy for it to influence your decisions. How could it not? So, it's good to have an outside source to give advice based on their experience, profession, etc.

In my series of threads about the mindset of the WW, I shared my opinion of how it's better if the father (the head of the family) remains in the marital bedroom and marital home. However, there are some cases where that's not possible. I agree that the WW should experience consequences of her decisions/actions. Even MWD says that in most cases, some type of loss has to be experienced, in order to influence her in the right direction. When she is in open rebellion, having a PA, etc., then the H usually has to make some hard decisions...…..if he wants to have self-respect and hopes to ever have a chance of her respecting him as a man....much less as her H. It may already be past that point with you, IDK. So, whatever you decide about moving, make sure all your ducks are in order, so it won't come back to bite you. IDK if you own your current home, or plan to buy another one...….but please, get legal advice about all of that stuff. We can give you our opinions/advice about the relationship matter, but when it comes to finances and legal matters......get it from the lawyers. And, don't ever trust a WW to do the "right thing" or "be fair".

I am strongly opposed to "in-house" separation, b/c it doesn't work. I've been active on this board for a little over eleven years now, and have never seen one case where it worked. On the other hand, I have seen cases where the couple physically separated and were later able to reconcile. One case on the board happened to be a couple who were both counselors. She was in a PA, even moved to another town, and they shared a little daughter. I'll try to remember to post you the link of the H's thread, b/c it was a success story. The point is that the WW has to believe she's lost/losing her H.....for real. As long as he continues being part of her life, she doesn't really feel the loss. She can tell when it's for real. People say, "Well, you share children, so you'll always be a part of her life". No, you have the same kids, but you don't have to share her life. There's a difference. Make a life for yourself.

As I think someone has previously stated, personalities often make a difference in how badly a WW acts. I haven't read your entire story yet, but it sounds like your WW is off and running. Some WW's are bullies. Some are spoiled, and have a sense of entitlement. Some are mean. Most are manipulators. All of them will check the H's emotional attachment temperature (temp check). All of them are angry at the H. All of them feel justified in doing what they do.....and blame the H for it. And, as one of my favorite people use to say...…...all cheaters lie.

Don't know if I addressed anything you wanted to know, but I'll find your thread and post more there.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/23/18 07:58 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
Torn I just saw your posts today. I wrote a rather lengthy response and then had some kind of computer error......and lost it. So, I'll try to shorten this one by saying that it seems you have really been on the ball doing a lot of things that indicate you are moving onward, detaching, GAL, etc.

Can you tell us why your kids are saying they don't want to live with their mother? What are their ages? As I'm sure you know, even with full custody, she would still have them sometimes, and they would still be affected by her emotional detachment from them. As the "sane" parent, you have to do what you can to protect them. Just know that most (not all) WW's will fight to the death to prevent their H from getting full custody. Not b/c she really wants the kids that much, but b/c she doesn't want him to win. So, if you should decide to go for full custody, be prepared to die on that battle hill, b/c there's little chance of returning to a MR with her. You have to do what you think is best for your kids, and with your lawyer's legal advice......always. With the painful emotions you are experiencing, it's easy for it to influence your decisions. How could it not? So, it's good to have an outside source to give advice based on their experience, profession, etc.

In my series of threads about the mindset of the WW, I shared my opinion of how it's better if the father (the head of the family) remains in the marital bedroom and marital home. However, there are some cases where that's not possible. I agree that the WW should experience consequences of her decisions/actions. Even MWD says that in most cases, some type of loss has to be experienced, in order to influence her in the right direction. When she is in open rebellion, having a PA, etc., then the H usually has to make some hard decisions...…..if he wants to have self-respect and hopes to ever have a chance of her respecting him as a man....much less as her H. It may already be past that point with you, IDK. So, whatever you decide about moving, make sure all your ducks are in order, so it won't come back to bite you. IDK if you own your current home, or plan to buy another one...….but please, get legal advice about all of that stuff. We can give you our opinions/advice about the relationship matter, but when it comes to finances and legal matters......get it from the lawyers. And, don't ever trust a WW to do the "right thing" or "be fair".

I am strongly opposed to "in-house" separation, b/c it doesn't work. I've been active on this board for a little over eleven years now, and have never seen one case where it worked. On the other hand, I have seen cases where the couple physically separated and were later able to reconcile. One case on the board happened to be a couple who were both counselors. She was in a PA, even moved to another town, and they shared a little daughter. I'll try to remember to post you the link of the H's thread, b/c it was a success story. The point is that the WW has to believe she's lost/losing her H.....for real. As long as he continues being part of her life, she doesn't really feel the loss. She can tell when it's for real. People say, "Well, you share children, so you'll always be a part of her life". No, you have the same kids, but you don't have to share her life. There's a difference. Make a life for yourself.

As I think someone has previously stated, personalities often make a difference in how badly a WW acts. I haven't read your entire story yet, but it sounds like your WW is off and running. Some WW's are bullies. Some are spoiled, and have a sense of entitlement. Some are mean. Most are manipulators. All of them will check the H's emotional attachment temperature (temp check). All of them are angry at the H. All of them feel justified in doing what they do.....and blame the H for it. And, as one of my favorite people use to say...…...all cheaters lie.

Don't know if I addressed anything you wanted to know, but I'll find your thread and post more there.





Sandi,

I dont know if you have read my threads all the way through. I appreciate your responses. I'll give an update. So this stitch actually started about three years ago. I can admit, I was not a great husband. I have always worked hard, contributed etc. However I had some serious issues with communication and just outright not working with my WW on resolving issues. Three years ago WW said "I love you H, but if you dont better yourself and work on changes, I'm out"
.
When WW told me that I made a HUGE effort to get my sh*t together. I honestly made some very significant changes. I became more attentive, practiced listening to understand etc. I went through a lot of counseling. I got to the understanding that a better me, with me being happy with myself would make a better H and parent.

It worked well, my career flourished, my relationship with my kids got very strong. For a short time my WW did notice and we were actually getting along much better. Than 1.5 years ago, my WW got a promotion under her current AP.

At the time, WW wasnt focused on an A, she was just focused on herself. I noticed that she wmstarted being a WAW. Just subtle changes here and there. But then about 6 months after her promotion she pulled away hard. This is where the kids not wanting to live with her comes in. WW got very bitter, resentful about everything at home, completely withdrew emotionally from the kids and I. The kids saw this and over time lost trust with WW.

I believe when WW started traveling a ton more and withdrew emotionally from the family is when the EA started. The kids tried to maintain a bond and she literally stonewalled them at every chance. WW destroyed her relationship with her kids. Then BD happened and she kept lying to them and trying to paint me in a bad light. Since the kids came to rely on me 100% of the time for everything, they see right through her lies. They still love her but they do not trust her.

Therein lies the conundrum. I am in an IHS. Although I noticed my WW coming back towards me a little bit, I dont believe that she is "getting" the hunt that I'm done. Of course I still love her and would reconcile. I'm just done feeling like a doormat. So my option is to move out. But if I do I will have to file for a D most likely.
.
It's not that I would file for full custody. My D16 gets to decide where the two minor children live. So WW would be fighting against D16s decision and not mine. If i leave WW will probably start traveling to see OM again, which she was doing g sbout 80% of the time. So regardless, even though i would get the kids either full time or a majority of the time, i feel WW would make our lives hell and that it would make it nearly impossible to reconcile.

I have noticed WW has been around me more when i am home. She used to completely avoid me. Now she stays downstairs with me, she eats at the table with me. She is back to asking me where in going, where I have been etc. Shes worried about what my family thinks. This is all stuff she literally stopped doing and now is doing again.

For now i think I'll just stay in my home in the MBR. I am detached completely and GAL full tilt. I'm cordial to her. I have been treating her like a roommate. She literally asked me if "i was ok with this situation ". I reaffirmed that I do not live in an open marriage and that she knows my feelings about the affair. But otherwise I'm fine. She asked me why I dont want to leave and move on. I told her that I already moved on. I know just words, but she sees it. She was stunned when I said I was fine and that I moved on.

WW is going nuts that I'm not showing any of my previous behaviors. No more pleading, begging, jealousy, asking where she is or was, asking who shes talking to or texting etc. I'm actually seeing some of these behaviors in her which is odd. She constantly asks where I am now and where I an going. She was goi g to make dinner the other night and I started to leave. She asked where I was going. I just said "out" and she replied "well I never know when you are leaving or where you are going or how long you will be gone anymore because you dont tell me anymore, so it's hard for me to plan things like dinner"
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/24/18 06:11 PM
WW sent me a horrible text this morning pretty much pointing out every one of my failures in the last 20 years, twisting them to be way more extreme than they were and stating that is why she is doing what she is doing.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/24/18 10:33 PM
WW's are very resentful toward the H. They will rewrite history and make it sound as if they were treated terribly, had to sacrifice happiness, etc. It's a way they try to justify what they are doing currently. She knows having an affair is wrong, but she'll try to justify it by making you out to be the bad guy.

Don't acknowledge her text. She's baiting you into a fight. You know the truth, and you won't make her change her mind or admit how it really was.

I suggest you stop responding to any texts that does not ask a direct question about the kids. You can tell when she is on a rampage, so don't get hooked by responding.
Posted By: RR17 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/27/18 03:22 PM
Sandi, I posting this here to avoid hijacking neffer's thread.

Quote
Thank you so much for sharing your story. I'm just sorry I didn't see it when you first posted. I'm not able to stay on top of things as I once did (or thought I did). I only remember one other WH posting on the board, but he didn't stay long.

Thank you also for the kind words about how much our posts have helped you, b/c it is really encouraging. I was still wayward when I arrived on the board, and I give a ton of credit to the mentors I had back during that time. It played a big part in my decision to end my A and stay with my H. I was on this board from the minute I got home from work, until I would nearly fall asleep at the computer every night. Years ago, we were able to contact members privately, so I was getting extra help in my time of feeling weak and tempted. I went through several months of hard withdrawals, and another several months of what I suppose could be determined lighter withdrawals. In a minute, I'll tell you why I think it took me so long.

I was very depressed after ending my A. And, I was struggling with some health issues (before and after the A) and doctors had switched my meds around, until it's a wonder I have any sense at all. I didn't want to take responsibility for having an A, but I finally did. I was not thrilled to be staying in my M. It was just the right thing to do. That's what some LBS's don't understand. The decision to stay in the M, doesn't mean all the emotions are immediately set right.

I think there are some significant differences in a wayward W and a wayward H, simply b/c of the differences in women and men's makeup. For example, you felt protective over your W and son. That's how men usually see their responsibility, or their role as the protector over the family. Maybe that's why it is so shocking when we read about some WW who left her own children behind in order to be with the OM.....or live like a girl gone wild. There have been several WW's to come & go since I've been a board member, and every single one was alike in their type of mindset, etc. Anyway, it would be interesting to compare notes with a former WH.

It took me nearly two years before I felt like I had reached the point of having the energy to work on my MR. Now, I don't want that to discourage you. I'm just being real with you. This was me, but it's not to say it will be you. You see, I made the decision to do the right thing, end my A and stay in my M. However, my feelings did not change for some time. Yes, I ended my A, and went totally NC with OM, etc. But......it did not stop the fantasizing in my head. And, those little games your mind likes to play...….the "what ifs" or "what may have been". Then I realized I was keeping the A alive in my mind. I could stay busy during the day, come to the board at night, but once I finally went to bed...….here would come the fantasizing. I didn't know how to turn it off. Truth was, I hadn't really tried as hard as I'd like to have admitted. Then something else hit me. Call it God or whatever (I call it God), and that was the fact I had not shown any remorse or even given a humble apology to my H. Why? B/c I wasn't remorseful! I still had a chip on my shoulder. Well, no wonder my feelings for my H had not changed!

Did I mention I wasn't sleeping too well, either? Okay, so finally I started praying that God would help me to feel remorseful, b/c I knew I should be and that I needed to apologize sincerely to my H. Oh boy, when it came, it nearly killed me. My H had stayed up late and I was tossing & turning in bed. I went to him to apologize, and I was so broken he could barely understand what I was saying......but he "knew" what I was trying to do. Afterwards, I went back to bed and slept for the first time in forever. It was still tempting to fantasize about OM, but I started praying every time those kind of thoughts started. Guess that was a good antidote b/c one day I realized the fantasies had stopped.

I'd like to say that that took care of everything, but it didn't. However, it was a start. It would take time for my feelings to catch up. I had to start doing things on purpose (as the kids say). In other words, I had to do things out of my "will" rather than waiting on my "feelings". For example, I willed myself to treat my H with respect. Eventually, the feelings caught up, and I truly did/do respect him. I had so much hard work to do on my heart/mindset. I had to get rid of all those unresolved issues from the past. I had to forgive my H for a host of things. I didn't want to, but God made me realize if my H could forgive me, who was I to say I wouldn't or couldn't forgive him. WW's are very prideful, and that's why humbleness is important. I had to let go of a bunch of old cr@p. It really is a process the wayward spouse has to go through, IMHO, to find their way back again. The LBS has to go through their own healing and forgiving, and so does the wayward spouse. They each have their own different type of process to go through, and then they have to work together to piece their MR together. It's tough!

Some MR's can bounce back faster than others. Frankly, I have doubts when a LBS starts talking about how quickly their WS is progressing and everything is lovey-dovey. Maybe that's just me, or maybe it's b/c I know how much work is involved.

Well, I don't think I've told you anything you don't already know, or read where I've said it. I just want you to know that it can get better. I feel that I was extremely blessed to have the H I have (yes, the one I disrespected so badly) and received the help from some wise people. Although you may be still struggling, you can become stronger by remaining on the board, paying forward what you have experienced/learned.....and are still learning. Piecing is not for sissies, that's for sure. Don't give up. I thought I would never be happy again. I thought I missed my chance when I let OM go. I was wrong on both counts.


This entry really resonates with me and I have a few questions:

Not to get tied up on titles, but at what point do you consider that you were piecing? Was it when you decided to do the right thing and stay in the MR or when you admitted remorse or perhaps at some other point?
Given your own experience and years of reading here would you say that some of these steps don't always happen in the same order? (particularly the decision to will yourself to do the right things and heartfelt apology)
During your time willing your self, was there anything that you believe an H should do, outside of continuing DB basic?

As always, thanks for your valuable contributions.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 12:10 AM
Quote
Not to get tied up on titles, but at what point do you consider that you were piecing? Was it when you decided to do the right thing and stay in the MR or when you admitted remorse or perhaps at some other point?


That's a really good question. I was still in the house with my H, and we had not claimed to be in an in-house type of separation......just to clarify for readers. For me, when I made the decision to do the right thing and ended the A with OM, I considered the MR to be piecing. I had read information about the importance of transparency, and I immediately started being open about my computer activity, etc. As stated in the post you copied, I tried hard not to deliberately show disrespect toward my H. I was focused on trying to get through the withdrawals, come to the DB every day, and address my health issues. This may not have appeared as the 110% effort my H said he initially wanted from me, but in time he was convinced I was being honest and had ended my A. Luckily for me, he is a very patient man.

Some of the hardest work for the WW is in her heart. The H may be working on his 180's or whatever, but she has to get rid of all that resentment, disrespect, and rebellious feelings she accumulated over the years. I'll try not to repeat what I said in that post again, except to say it is a process for her to work on her attitude, heart, speech and overt behavior. I mean, I was not feeling like a happy camper by any means. I couldn't just bounce back into being the W I used to be.

That brings me to the second part about admitting the remorse. When I was able to put away my stubborn pride, and really deal with the fact I had not forgiven my H for things that happened years ago....and I started facing the hurt and devastation to my family.....I began feeling humble. The remorse came, and I truly forgave my H for the past issues. I was able to genuinely apologize for my betrayal. Once that happened, then the desire to put effort in other ways begin to come. Before that, I had no "want to", no energy, no drive. I had too much garbage in my heart.

Quote
Given your own experience and years of reading here would you say that some of these steps don't always happen in the same order? (particularly the decision to will yourself to do the right things and heartfelt apology)


I don't think everyone's steps come in the very same order, and certainly not within the same
time frame. As similar as wayward spouses seem, the circumstances are individual and people go at their own pace. There have been couples who experience more than one false start (as it's called), and many WS backslide before they get completely through the withdrawals. I do believe it's essential for the wayward spouse to go through the process of cleaning up his/her heart. I believe it's very tough to make a happy, loving MR without the recovering WS experiencing a humble attitude.

I was very, very blessed to receive the information I needed at that time. I was getting it every day from the board. I have to wonder how many WS's get that type of information on a daily basis?

Quote
During your time willing your self, was there anything that you believe an H should do, outside of continuing DB basic?


Yes, I believe the recovering wayward spouse needs a lot of encouragement and support while trying to get through the withdrawals and just doing trying to do the right thing but not really "feeling it". It's not easy for the faithful spouse to know how to balance some of it without smothering the recovering WS.

I think professional guidance is important, and the faithful spouse should insist upon it. I think the WS needs information about what they are experiencing and how to proceed. My H would not go, but I got my help from the board. I also know he was reading what I was posting on the board, b/c he was watching my computer history. So, I think he got a little information, too.

I recommend the faithful spouse try to incorporate more fun activities and have group settings when possible, rather than pushing for romantic settings right off the bat...….especially if they've been in a SSM, and the WS was in an A, etc. I do believe the faithful spouse should insist (if need be) that they sleep in the same bed. They don't have to have sex right off the bat, but don't let the WS come back under the premise of being in separate bedrooms. While reconciling, this is the time to build the "friendship" side of the relationship (that's not the word I like to use referring to a M couple, but maybe it gives the right message of what I mean.) If the faithful spouse is the H, and if they were in a SSM, I think he should make it clear to his W that he will not settle for a life without sex. He needs to make his stipulations or conditions very clear upon them reconciling.

When it is the W that's been wayward, I think the H should not fear holding her accountable for her whereabouts, activities, etc. If the faithful spouse does not feel comfortable about something the WS wants to do apart from their spouse being with them, they need to express their concerns. The WW or WH should not be going off on trips without their perspective spouses. I'm old fashion, but I don't think a wife/mother should be out hitting the clubs/bars without her H when she is suppose to be recovering from waywardness and walking the straight & narrow path.

The faithful spouse should not agree to simply pick up the MR where they left off, without the WS doing the work.

Give the WS some space, but don't leave them alone for an extended amount of time, when they are going through withdrawals, and especially if they are reluctant to be transparent. Just don't make them feel like your breathing down their neck all the time. Don't smother with your presence. Yeah, it's a tough job being the faithful spouse.

I'm not sure if I'm addressing the type of things you wanted to know. Let me know.
Posted By: SoTorn Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 03:10 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2
WW's are very resentful toward the H. They will rewrite history and make it sound as if they were treated terribly, had to sacrifice happiness, etc. It's a way they try to justify what they are doing currently. She knows having an affair is wrong, but she'll try to justify it by making you out to be the bad guy.

Don't acknowledge her text. She's baiting you into a fight. You know the truth, and you won't make her change her mind or admit how it really was.

I suggest you stop responding to any texts that does not ask a direct question about the kids. You can tell when she is on a rampage, so don't get hooked by responding.



Thank you Sandi. Detach and GAL is at minimum protecting me emotionally. I spoke with an attorney. He said do not move out. He said that I am being very mature about this and that the longer I stay and keep acting like I am, at minimum it builds a better R with kids and shows them how to be a mature adult. He said that it looks great in court that I can detach and focus on the kids without conflict because it shows I'm invested in the kids.
Posted By: harvey Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 03:17 AM
I wish there was a similar expert who gave us her musings on the WAW.
Posted By: RR17 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 02:39 PM
Harvey, There is a expert on the W's perspective. Her name is Sandi2
Posted By: Cadet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by RR17
Harvey, There is a expert on the W's perspective. Her name is Sandi2

BINGO

And there is NO difference in what YOU do.

Its all the same.
Posted By: lost8 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 02:49 PM
Sandi your responses are invaluable coming from the perspective of a former WW and we all appreciate the time that you have devoted to helping so many of us. I hope it is ok to ask you specifically for advice on your thread.

My WW of 6 months seems to be interested in spending more time with me and is slowly offering up more and more in brief discussions. Now granted I will admit she has been drinking a fair amount and I know this is still her self medicating through her IC work addressing many abusive relationships since back to her early teens and maybe even before. Her latest abusive relationship was a boss of 7 years that she recently resigned from and is now working from home. My W had often gone out after work to HH or other social functions at her previous job but now working from home is not interested in that much outside the house unless she is with me.

In the past few weeks I have heard the "I'm sorrys", her IC work has relieved her of the resentment that she has had for me and my family and she is expressing that, many ILYs from her, doesn't want to lose me, wants me to sleep in MBR, physical intimacy, etc. Last night she talked about R and I expressed not being able to feel the pain that she has been in from her past life but only the pain that I have felt the last 6 months or so and was very upset and acknowledge what she had done.

Her biggest concern is not wanting me to take her independence and being able to go where she wants when she wants but I know......big red flags. I don't ask but she tells me and will still stay out overnight because of the drinking. She has expressed that we do have to discuss the A at some point but we have not addressed details yet but that may be coming soon. I haven't asked if it is still ongoing or at least contact with OM but she is home all the time and when I am there she is not on her phone like she used to be and would do it right in my face.

I will be honest I am not ready to R until she is 100% onboard and although she does not want to spend time out like she used to, she is saying that her "friends" are upset because she doesn't hang out anymore. The "friends" could be OM pressuring and she could be fighting it like you experienced. At this point I feel emotionally detached from her and only in the last few weeks have responded to her wants because of physical attraction. She has said that she can't wait for me to get home from work, wants to spend evenings with me, wants to come places with me even if I am just running out.

I guess my question is what do I do from here, the steps aren't laid out as clearly when the sitch gets to this point? I see her trying to get back to me but I have not opened up or let her back in. The A needs to be addressed and where she stands with OM but how does that happen? She is progressing to opening up and I don't even want to ask...honestly don't care. I am truly at the point where if we split, I'm good and have told her it would be a long road to a new MR because of the damage that has been done and the intense therapy program she is in.
Posted By: RR17 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 03:22 PM
Quote
I'm not sure if I'm addressing the type of things you wanted to know. Let me know.



You did address a lot of what I was looking for. In my sitch and I can't believe I am the only one, WW is demonstrating all of the signs of the "Will herself to do the right things" stage. It took a while to trust that it wasn't just to throw me off her trail. But I see it almost exactly as you described your sitch. BTW, I believe this stage deserves a legit Label.

So question is, stubborn W hasn't admitted that she is piecing or staying or anything. I have heard "For now I am still here" but as offten said here, actions speak louder than words. I think due to self esteam issues blah blah blah, she will always struggle to admit how wrong she was.
I do believe she is trying to show me.
Anyway, I don't think the feelings are all back, so she is still Willing herself. And I have tried to be supportive as you described. I also think W is waiting to see if my changes are perminate. So some of the advice that you provided seems out of reach. We are doing a lot of this Friendly activity stuff that you described. But telling her that I reqire for her to move back to the MBR seems confrintational. Telling her that sex will be expected seems like fighting words. It is my gut feeling but I think these are the kind of things she is withholding until the feelings return. I hope this makes sence. I am in no way justifing her feelings, simply sharing what I believe is going on.
As has often been discused on my thread and in my sitch is comunication problems. From this group I have learned a new term, Covert Contracts. W comes from a family culture of these contracts. Certian things should just be known. Good luck, right? wink
So should I find the best way to comunicate the above requirments or continue to be patient?
Thanks for your responce.
Posted By: neffer Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 03:36 PM
Hey RR, Sandi...sorry for my intrusion...

RR, why not getting out of the comfort zone?...like doing some travelling?...I have done some of that.


patience RR (sorry, I had to say it ;))
Posted By: harvey Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by Cadet
Originally Posted by RR17
Harvey, There is a expert on the W's perspective. Her name is Sandi2

BINGO

And there is NO difference in what YOU do.

Its all the same.


I understand there is no difference in what I do. I understand that Sandi's posts are helpful to a lot of people. I find it interesting to read the mind of a WW, but my WAW has little resentment for me. There is no distance-pursuit. She treats me like a friend. I realize that could change with time. I've detached relatively well, so I'm not basing my actions on her. It would just be interesting to have a perspective from a WAW.
Posted By: RR17 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
Hey RR, Sandi...sorry for my intrusion...

RR, why not getting out of the comfort zone?...like doing some travelling?...I have done some of that.


patience RR (sorry, I had to say it ;))


I'm not taling about just getting her in my bed. I more concerned about expessing the conditions Sandi2 described.
Posted By: neffer Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 04:19 PM
Originally Posted by RR17
Originally Posted by neffer
Hey RR, Sandi...sorry for my intrusion...

RR, why not getting out of the comfort zone?...like doing some travelling?...I have done some of that.


patience RR (sorry, I had to say it ;))


I'm not taling about just getting her in my bed. I more concerned about expessing the conditions Sandi2 described.


I´m not talking about that neither RR. In fact it never crossed my mind that actually. Travel together helps bonding. Take Ds. A family travel, without any pressures.
Posted By: neffer Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/29/18 04:29 PM
Originally Posted by neffer
Originally Posted by RR17
Originally Posted by neffer
Hey RR, Sandi...sorry for my intrusion...

RR, why not getting out of the comfort zone?...like doing some travelling?...I have done some of that.


patience RR (sorry, I had to say it ;))


I'm not taling about just getting her in my bed. I more concerned about expessing the conditions Sandi2 described.


I´m not talking about that neither RR. In fact it never crossed my mind that actually. Travel together helps bonding. Take Ds. A family travel, without any pressures.


It´s about having a project together. It could be something else. Something you both, or the whole family, could have as a goal, a tangible goal. A common cause to work on together so as to take some pressure away. Think about it man. Sorry for the interfering.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/30/18 12:00 AM
Quote
You did address a lot of what I was looking for. In my sitch and I can't believe I am the only one, WW is demonstrating all of the signs of the "Will herself to do the right things" stage. It took a while to trust that it wasn't just to throw me off her trail. But I see it almost exactly as you described your sitch. BTW, I believe this stage deserves a legit Label.


I want to clarify what I mean by doing something from my will, rather than from emotions. People usually have some level of standards by which they conduct their lives. When we are passionate about a right cause, we can dive in with both feet and it's great. That's the easy way. If we don't have the passion but we know it's a right cause, we may still work for it. It's just not as easy without the passion.

In order to "do the right thing", you have to know what the right thing is. Make sense? For me, I knew it was wrong for a M woman to do what I had been doing, and according to my own moral & spiritual beliefs, the right thing started with me ending the A. Did I really want to end the A? I'm embarrassed to say that my emotions were kicking and screaming, "Don't do it, don't do it". But my actions did it. When we do the right action, our emotions will catch up and feel right, too. Yes, actions count a lot more.

When the couple is residing under the same, either as IHS or just sleeping in separate beds, it would be very easy for the WW to try to slide under the bar of H's stipulations of reconciling with her. In other words, she might not want to make a verbal commitment to working on the MR.....much less doing whatever is necessary to save it. From what I have read, the WW is infamous for wanting to tell the H how things will be "if" she decides to reconcile. Some WW's don't want to even give the H a solid answer as to where she stands, and he finds himself playing a guessing game. Rather than plainly coming out with it, she'll say things like, "I'm still here", which should be an unacceptable answer, IMO. If the H has to ask his WW where they currently stand and she gives a response similar to that one......she's not committed. She may want one foot in and one foot out, but she is not committed to doing what she needs to do, coming from the place of betrayal. So, my advice to all the H's is to not consider themselves reconciled or piecing if she won't do better than that.

There may be some exception, but from what I've seen, most WW's who have not reached the point of remorse still have a ton of resentment, and they want to twist the burden of guilt to the H. I've talked about this before, and although he may be eager to show off his skills at being a better H, he really needs to hold her feet to the fire......should she start making it about all his faults before she even lets him know if she's willing to just be willing to work on the M. Some cases where the couple are physically separated and she's suffered loss & consequences due to her choices, she may be ready and willing to what the H needs in order to feel safe in a relationship with her. The disadvantage of living under the same roof is when there has been betrayal and the wayward spouse just wants to seep back as little and as painlessly as possible. I think it certainly applies to the WW who has not yet felt remorse. It took me a while, as a recovering WW, to accept that my actions had been the worst thing done to a MR. I wanted to spotlight my H's faults and make them equally as bad as having an affair. Well, the WW just can't progress with that type of attitude.

Quote
So question is, stubborn W hasn't admitted that she is piecing or staying or anything. I have heard "For now I am still here" but as offten said here, actions speak louder than words. I think due to self esteam issues blah blah blah, she will always struggle to admit how wrong she was.


Well, you know her better than anyone. I'll just put it this way, I don't think a WW is going to "accidently" get to where she needs to be in her MR. There needs to be a conscious decision on her part, or otherwise you risk living together like roommates, at best. As for the self-esteem issues? I think it's pride that prevents people from admitting they were wrong. That's JMHO.

I believe many WW's try to ride the fence b/c they aren't sure they want the want a full relationship with their H.....so she tries to leave the back door open in case she wants out. That's a WW who is not committed, IMHO. I'll admit that I wasn't at sure when I first ended my A. I remember one of my mentors trying to narrow it down, and finally I was asked if I could just end the A and go NC with OM. That was the only thing I was being asked to do. It was hard! But that was me making a decision to do "the right thing" and end the A, despite what I felt. My heart wasn't in it, but I had to handle it just like some other addiction and take it hour by hour, then day by day, etc.

Quote
I do believe she is trying to show me.
Anyway, I don't think the feelings are all back, so she is still Willing herself. And I have tried to be supportive as you described.


How is she trying to show you? Has she gone completely NC with OM? Is she being transparent? And if she hasn't ended things with OM, then why are you be so supportive? See what I mean? If she hasn't ended her A, then your "support" efforts look more like compromising. I need to catch up on your sitch.

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We are doing a lot of this Friendly activity stuff that you described. But telling her that I reqire for her to move back to the MBR seems confrintational. Telling her that sex will be expected seems like fighting words.


Well, that pretty much answers my question. She's still holding out and there has been no obvious statement from her indicating that she has made a decision. See, she keeps you in this guessing field. Look, when I made the decision to do the right thing, I did have a conversation with my H and let him know I had ended the affair, and would be staying in the M, and I became transparent. We even engaged in using a book for guidance for awhile, b/c he wouldn't agree to MC. But there was a conscious decision on my part. No, my feelings had not returned at that point, but there was no question which direction I had decided to go. It took nearly two years for me to get from the point of ending my A to the point of me finally breaking down my pride and sincerely and humbly apologizing to my H and really desiring to make things work. That's when my feelings of love started returning. But let me tell ya, if I had continued contacting OM......my H would not have been my personal cheerleader, playing happy family and acting as my BFF.

Do you see how the WW could be misinterpreted your "support" as meaning you are compromising or settling for whatever crumbs she throws your way? My H was not as tough on me as he should have been. He was not the one on the board getting the tools. But through my own experience, and from reading thousands of other experiences, I am telling you not to settle for her crumbs. She has to do better, but if she isn't getting the information to know what she's dealing with and what to expect, then she's likely not going to go as far with it as needed. She has to start with a decision. See, this is why I hate IHS. The lines are too blurred for the WW and the LBH. You are trying to act as if you are in piecing but you don't know where you are. And, if you don't feel you can tell her what you expect from a wife, then I'm afraid you won't get it. Of course, you don't feel free to lay out those requirements, if she hasn't even let you know anything. Giving her time for the feelings to return is one, but you should know where the M stands rather than trying to convince yourself she is trying, when she isn't.

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So should I find the best way to comunicate the above requirments or continue to be patient?


No, the first thing you do is find out if she's still in contact with OM. Are you sleeping in the same bed with her? Is this still a IHS? If the A ended, then has there been a transparency plan for her? Does she act secretive with her phone and/or don't want you asking her questions? It goes nowhere until she ends things with OM, plain and simple.

I hope I'm wrong, and maybe you can fill me in, but it sounds as if you may have the cart before the horse.
Let me know. I'll be glad to go back and completely redo this post.
Posted By: RR17 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/30/18 03:57 AM
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I want to clarify what I mean by doing something from my will, rather than from emotions. People usually have some level of standards by which they conduct their lives. When we are passionate about a right cause, we can dive in with both feet and it's great. That's the easy way. If we don't have the passion but we know it's a right cause, we may still work for it. It's just not as easy without the passion.


Oh, I get it. I think we have all willed ourselves to do that which is right without the passion to drive us. It feels good because it is the right thing but it can often be laborious. Hopefully, the feelings will come. I get it.

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When the couple is residing under the same, either as IHS or just sleeping in separate beds, it would be very easy for the WW to try to slide under the bar of H's stipulations of reconciling with her. In other words, she might not want to make a verbal commitment to working on the MR.....much less doing whatever is necessary to save it. From what I have read, the WW is infamous for wanting to tell the H how things will be "if" she decides to reconcile. Some WW's don't want to even give the H a solid answer as to where she stands, and he finds himself playing a guessing game. Rather than plainly coming out with it, she'll say things like, "I'm still here", which should be an unacceptable answer, IMO. If the H has to ask his WW where they currently stand and she gives a response similar to that one......she's not committed. She may want one foot in and one foot out, but she is not committed to doing what she needs to do, coming from the place of betrayal. So, my advice to all the H's is to not consider themselves reconciled or piecing if she won't do better than that.


This is where I am. There are no solid answers because there are no discussions unless I start the dreaded R discussion and even that has been several months. I understand why LBSs shouldn't move out but in a way, Staying makes it easier on the WW/WAW and as you described, lines get blurry. On the other hand, I have seen a definite change in her actions.


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I do believe she is trying to show me.
Anyway, I don't think the feelings are all back, so she is still Willing herself. And I have tried to be supportive as you described.



How is she trying to show you? Has she gone completely NC with OM? Is she being transparent? And if she hasn't ended things with OM, then why are you be so supportive? See what I mean? If she hasn't ended her A, then your "support" efforts look more like compromising. I need to catch up on your sitch.

I do not believe there is an OM. I believe that there hasn't been for years. I have snooped and read phone records and computer logs. No signs. W really doesn't have the extra time. Unless she is skipping Monday night bible study for rendezvous, and fabricating discussions to share with me, she really doesn't have any unaccounted for time. I realize anything is possible. I remember years ago when she was lying about NC, it is nothing like that now.

I guess it is an unofficial IHS. W moved out of the MBR about a year ago.
With time and DB she has gradually and continually demonstrated respect and consideration and transparency. And in a very authentic way. I'm convinced from a skeptical viewpoint. Not a sad LBS looking for scraps, kind of way.
Just no affection or intamacy. We dine out just the two of us. We work toward common projects etc. Watch movies, shop. She makes sure I have money, Asks about my day. Remembers what I tell her. It is convincing and genuine.

This is a brief summary of many months of progress. I don't believe I am putting any cart anywhere. I would guess we are exploring piecing but who knows? If you have time to catch up I would much appreciate it,
All my great supporters continually remind me to be patient. I am in Limbo, I have been here for a while. I can continue in limbo. I just wonder if I should if I should be putting my foot down as you have described.
Posted By: Manta Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/30/18 11:49 AM
I don't know what to do with my situation.

She's a WW, we are physically separated. DDay was back in August. She doesn't want to R, A us still going on. We have NC between us. Her AP lives in another country.

I hope Sandi you can look at my situation and comment.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/30/18 03:39 PM
RR17. I'll try to catch up on your sitch, b/c it's kind of difficult to gather full details in one post, and/or try to offer advice in a post that covers everything. smile

Manta, I will catch up and respond on your threads.

Lost 8, I have read your threads and I would like to reply. I'll probably post on your thread.

I haven't forgotten about you.
Posted By: lost8 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/30/18 04:04 PM
Thank you Sandi....I don't think I am in dire need just looking for your thoughts at this stage. The ones in daily turmoil will be greatly helped with your knowledge and you deserve more than a thank you for your time and effort.
Posted By: Manta Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 11/30/18 04:20 PM
Thanks Sandi. Really appreciated. smile
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/02/18 04:59 PM
Quick question I've been looking for a better part of an hour on sandi's response to an "Everything ok?" request from WW. I know that it's a trap question, but I want to know why. I saw her post a response, but do not know what thread it is in. I've looked through the search engines with no luck.

Can someone assist? Please? smile

Edit: Found it! But I would like more insight please. I get hit with that question once every three weeks or so and I always response with "Nothing. Everything is great!". Also, I know that it never ends well with I answer...truthfully. I practically hand my balls to her on a silver platter.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/02/18 05:14 PM
Originally Posted by pain18
Also, I know that it never ends well with I answer...truthfully.


Meant to say:
Originally Posted by pain18
Also, I know that it never ends well if I answer...truthfully"
Posted By: Adam04 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/02/18 05:33 PM
Originally Posted by pain18
Quick question I've been looking for a better part of an hour on sandi's response to an "Everything ok?" request from WW. I know that it's a trap question, but I want to know why. I saw her post a response, but do not know what thread it is in. I've looked through the search engines with no luck.

Can someone assist? Please? smile

Edit: Found it! But I would like more insight please. I get hit with that question once every three weeks or so and I always response with "Nothing. Everything is great!". Also, I know that it never ends well with I answer...truthfully. I practically hand my balls to her on a silver platter.


pain18,

you tell your W that yes, you -ARE- FINE, in fact you're having the BEST time of your life. Truthfully, if you Detach and GAL for you, why wouldn't you be having the best time? Wouldn't that be better than being miserable under the looming axe of D?

Trap question IMO means she temp checking you, if you still under her control, then yes you will be honestly saying you are miserable and she will go Thank you, I'll see you later tonight. If you are honest and show her you're having the best time of your life, you're moving on, you might be whistling dixie coming in the door, cheery attitude, swaying back and forth, tossing the keys down, maybe not even noticing her until she asks "hey hows things", then you raise your head smiling as if you were thinking about something that really took your mind off her, then you tell her, had a great day, or couldn't be better. (keep it short, keep them guessing, then keep going)
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/08/18 11:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pain18

Quick question I've been looking for a better part of an hour on sandi's response to an "Everything ok?" request from WW. I know that it's a trap question, but I want to know why. I saw her post a response, but do not know what thread it is in. I've looked through the search engines with no luck.

Can someone assist? Please? smile

Edit: Found it! But I would like more insight please. I get hit with that question once every three weeks or so and I always response with "Nothing. Everything is great!". Also, I know that it never ends well with I answer...truthfully. I practically hand my balls to her on a silver platter.


It is a "hook" question she uses to pull you into texting with her. Yes, she is temp checking, but it goes further, b/c she wants to know what you are doing. What are you up to? She wants that control over your life. She's going to be nosy! If you are out, she is especially curious and wants to know where, when, what and with whom. So, she starts playing like she's concerned about you? No way! She wants to keep you emotionally engaged/attached.

She doesn't want to be your W, but she wants you to stay available and engaging with her. She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want you finding interest in someone else. She doesn't want you happy with some OW. She wants to replace you with OM, but she doesn't want you replacing her. So, this is her way of trying to stay on top of what you are doing when you are out and about, or if you don't come home within the time frame she expects.

How should you respond? Just say, "fine", and then do not respond to further questioning.

Learn to use one word text responses (or just as few as absolutely necessary). She will try to keep you responding back and forth, but just don't engage...….especially if you are out GAL. Remember, she is not your friend! She has an ulterior motive for texting and asking if everything is okay...….and it's not b/c she is concerned about you!
Posted By: burned Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 01:29 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2
She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want you finding interest in someone else. She doesn't want you happy with some OW. She wants to replace you with OM, but she doesn't want you replacing her.
I know you’ve probably talked about this before but it still baffles me. Especially because of Twofeet’s recent convo with his W, which sounds very similar to a convo I had with my W (and yes, both of us were breaking DB protocol, unfortunately). We both got a response like, “Yes, it’s fine for you to date other people, I want you to be happy.” So are they lying/manipulating when they say that? Very curious to learn more about this if you have time.
Posted By: Davide Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 04:18 AM
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Originally Posted by sandi2
She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want you finding interest in someone else. She doesn't want you happy with some OW. She wants to replace you with OM, but she doesn't want you replacing her.

I know you’ve probably talked about this before but it still baffles me. Especially because of Twofeet’s recent convo with his W, which sounds very similar to a convo I had with my W (and yes, both of us were breaking DB protocol, unfortunately). We both got a response like, “Yes, it’s fine for you to date other people, I want you to be happy.” So are they lying/manipulating when they say that? Very curious to learn more about this if you have time.


This resonates with me as well. My W has clearly replaced me with OM, but is worried that she will "lose me" which seems to be in reference to another woman. I don't think it is necessarily lying or manipulative (though it could be.) At least in my sitch I see it as my W wanting her freedom but also wanting the connection which we forged over the years. It seems like cake-eating but almost unconscious cake-eating. There is no recognition of what it is on her part. Of course, I have never talked to my W about dating other people because it is none of her damn business at this point what I do. However, I think the idea is the same.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 04:53 PM
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Originally Posted by sandi2

She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want you finding interest in someone else. She doesn't want you happy with some OW. She wants to replace you with OM, but she doesn't want you replacing her.

I know you’ve probably talked about this before but it still baffles me. Especially because of Twofeet’s recent convo with his W, which sounds very similar to a convo I had with my W (and yes, both of us were breaking DB protocol, unfortunately). We both got a response like, “Yes, it’s fine for you to date other people, I want you to be happy.” So are they lying/manipulating when they say that? Very curious to learn more about this if you have time.


They are b.s.ing the H when they say this stuff. TwoFeet basically told his W what she wanted to hear, and he should not believe a word that she told him. Look, it's one thing for the WW to tell her H she wants him to date and be happy. But it's quite another thing when she actually experiences losing him. When does she actually lose him? Usually, for her, it's when another woman takes her place in his life. Until then, the WW selfishly wants to be his one true love that he never got over. She doesn't want another woman replacing her in his life. (But it's okay for her to replace him.) She still feels that she has some control over him. Sometimes she even causes trouble when he's married again, b/c she still tries to keep him attached to her. It is her selfishness, jealousy and control/manipulation at play.....not love.

So, believe none of what she says.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 05:34 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2

They are b.s.ing the H when they say this stuff. TwoFeet basically told his W what she wanted to hear, and he should not believe a word that she told him. Look, it's one thing for the WW to tell her H she wants him to date and be happy. But it's quite another thing when she actually experiences losing him. When does she actually lose him? Usually, for her, it's when another woman takes her place in his life. Until then, the WW selfishly wants to be his one true love that he never got over. She doesn't want another woman replacing her in his life. (But it's okay for her to replace him.) She still feels that she has some control over him. Sometimes she even causes trouble when he's married again, b/c she still tries to keep him attached to her. It is her selfishness, jealousy and control/manipulation at play.....not love.

So, believe none of what she says.


I clearly remember the conversation WW brought up to me two months before BD, and how she kept trying me to "have my own life" three months after. It was very difficult for me to see my sitch as anything else but a WW having an affair while cake-eating. This sounds like the very epitome of a WW.

And what Sandi says gives me all the more reason to be vindictive to her and have her feel even more pain and anguish in the coming weeks and months. I am not saying it's the right thing to feel, far from it, but it does make me furious at the blatant lack of disrespect coming from her. Like I really am starting to hate her.

I also know that saying what I said means I need to detach and GAL more. And continue to seek counseling for these feelings. But holy crap...I have never felt this kind of anger ever.
Posted By: Twofeet Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 06:18 PM
Originally Posted by sandi2
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Originally Posted by sandi2

She doesn't want you, but she doesn't want you finding interest in someone else. She doesn't want you happy with some OW. She wants to replace you with OM, but she doesn't want you replacing her.

I know you’ve probably talked about this before but it still baffles me. Especially because of Twofeet’s recent convo with his W, which sounds very similar to a convo I had with my W (and yes, both of us were breaking DB protocol, unfortunately). We both got a response like, “Yes, it’s fine for you to date other people, I want you to be happy.” So are they lying/manipulating when they say that? Very curious to learn more about this if you have time.


They are b.s.ing the H when they say this stuff. TwoFeet basically told his W what she wanted to hear, and he should not believe a word that she told him. Look, it's one thing for the WW to tell her H she wants him to date and be happy. But it's quite another thing when she actually experiences losing him. When does she actually lose him? Usually, for her, it's when another woman takes her place in his life. Until then, the WW selfishly wants to be his one true love that he never got over. She doesn't want another woman replacing her in his life. (But it's okay for her to replace him.) She still feels that she has some control over him. Sometimes she even causes trouble when he's married again, b/c she still tries to keep him attached to her. It is her selfishness, jealousy and control/manipulation at play.....not love.

So, believe none of what she says.





Hey Sandi,

Please read my sitch if you haven't and give me your thoughts to where I am at currently with my sitch.

Basically, W asked me to show my cards and I did. I am not dating, not dating anytime soon, when I do I will date younger because I can, and I have zero intention of getting married again. In this convo W tried to give me rules for dating, and future R. She also said she was not dating and staying single to heal. Do I believe her? Well on face value it could be true, but not likely. If she isn't dating she is probably at the least putting out feelers and exploring options. Why else would she BD me so out of the blue and rush to move out and D me at lightning speed? If there isn't a specific OM she might get a reality check on how hard the dating scene is in my area for someone with her prospects. The very least she will probably find out how low she will need to drop her standards. Who knows I could be dead wrong, it is not for me to decide. My problem is that I had a convo I shouldn't have had and now its knocked me back down and I am grieving hard all over again.
Posted By: JB42 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 08:31 PM
TF,

I'm going to follow your sitch because I'm thinking I'm going to be in a similar sitch soon. My W and I had a similar convo at the very beginning, but I told her that I'm gonna focus on me until I'm ready. She is actively with the OM, so she temp checks me constantly when I do things to see whats up.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 09:23 PM
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Basically, W asked me to show my cards and I did. I am not dating, not dating anytime soon, when I do I will date younger because I can, and I have zero intention of getting married again. In this convo W tried to give me rules for dating, and future R. She also said she was not dating and staying single to heal. Do I believe her?


No, you cannot believe anything she says. You can't trust her. The WW wants to control her H's life, even after they split. She wants to be able to whatever she pleases, and she wants to eat cake.....a lot of cake. She wants her H to stay emotionally attached and available to her, but she doesn't want to be his W. The only reason she would be interested is if she thought she was losing him. It is her selfishness, jealousy, and manipulation that drives her to be this way.

You should never show the WW your cards. This is not the girl you M. She is not your friend. You basically assured her that you would always carry a torch for her and not date anyone. At least, I'm pretty sure that's how she heard it. She doesn't get to set rules for your life. Period.

Stop sharing personal information with her about your intentions, your feelings, etc. You can't interact with her as though the two of you were in a loving relationship. Not now, anyway.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/09/18 10:14 PM
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And what Sandi says gives me all the more reason to be vindictive to her and have her feel even more pain and anguish in the coming weeks and months.


I believe I addressed the subject of vindictiveness on your thread. Enforcing your boundaries may cause her certain consequences for dishonoring them.....or it may not. As a man of honor, you make the decisions that you believe are right and line up with your values/principles. But your goal should not be to show vindictiveness toward her. I'm sure it must be difficult when your spouse is rubbing your nose in her cr@p every day.

Another thing some LBH's struggle with is not rescuing the WW when she starts experiencing trouble/problems (from whatever source or for whatever reason). Although she's treated him horribly, and nothing has changed in their R, she'll often run to him to bail her out. That's when he has to allow her to put on her big girl panties and deal with it herself. Again, this is not vindication, IMHO, but it's simply allowing her to deal with the reality of her choices...….and/or how live without him will be for her. This is not punishment. It is you not bailing her out of the consequences of life that hit her. Make sense? She doesn't want to be M to you, so with the end of the M comes the end of you protecting her and fixing her problems.

It's not your job to administer punishment to her. It's your job to protect your own feelings (set boundaries around yourself) and know what action you will do if those boundaries are crossed. It's not about you controlling her, but protecting yourself. You have to know how to separate making calm decisions rather than reacting to emotional pain. Are you focused on seeing her suffer...…….. or are you focused on protecting yourself from the pain she inflicts on you?

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I also know that saying what I said means I need to detach and GAL more. And continue to seek counseling for these feelings. But holy crap...I have never felt this kind of anger ever.


Well, it takes time to figure all of this out and deal with your emotions. GAL is the best medicine you take. Even if you just go somewhere to read......it gets you away from the house.

You may need to do some specific type of vigorous activity that works off some the anger. Like punching a boxing bag.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/10/18 03:21 AM
Originally Posted by sandi2

I believe I addressed the subject of vindictiveness on your thread. Enforcing your boundaries may cause her certain consequences for dishonoring them.....or it may not. As a man of honor, you make the decisions that you believe are right and line up with your values/principles. But your goal should not be to show vindictiveness toward her. I'm sure it must be difficult when your spouse is rubbing your nose in her cr@p every day.


I'm sure you did. I need to go back into my thread history and brush up and reinforce the healthy habits you folks have lined out.

It is difficult to have her act that way, but I know I have control over my reaction to her disrespect. It is something I need to embrace.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Another thing some LBH's struggle with is not rescuing the WW when she starts experiencing trouble/problems (from whatever source or for whatever reason). Although she's treated him horribly, and nothing has changed in their R, she'll often run to him to bail her out. That's when he has to allow her to put on her big girl panties and deal with it herself. Again, this is not vindication, IMHO, but it's simply allowing her to deal with the reality of her choices...….and/or how live without him will be for her. This is not punishment. It is you not bailing her out of the consequences of life that hit her. Make sense? She doesn't want to be M to you, so with the end of the M comes the end of you protecting her and fixing her problems.


I just now recognized my rescuing her a few weeks ago when I had to drive home with a heating pad and ankle tape for her. I said it was out of concern for D4, but everyone else here saw through my BS when I claimed it was me just trying to "help her out".

Originally Posted by sandi2

It's not your job to administer punishment to her. It's your job to protect your own feelings (set boundaries around yourself) and know what action you will do if those boundaries are crossed. It's not about you controlling her, but protecting yourself. You have to know how to separate making calm decisions rather than reacting to emotional pain. Are you focused on seeing her suffer...…….. or are you focused on protecting yourself from the pain she inflicts on you?


I am now focused on seeing her suffer. It is a unhealthy habit I am working on moving forward from. I have expressed previously that I would like to genuinely forgive her down the road. I just cannot do it right now, even if by some miracle she wants to discuss R now.

My feelings being protected from her is a work in progress. The last time I truly exposed my feelings to her was about two months ago after the emotional MC session. And we all know what you thought of that wink. I'm hoping and working on that session being the last time I expose anything about myself to her. I am not thinking about how I will act if I D or R. In my mind, it's too far away and I am not going to focus on that anymore.

Originally Posted by sandi2

Well, it takes time to figure all of this out and deal with your emotions. GAL is the best medicine you take. Even if you just go somewhere to read......it gets you away from the house.

You may need to do some specific type of vigorous activity that works off some the anger. Like punching a boxing bag.



I'm appreciating that time is beginning to heal these wounds. I still ask for an ending to this, but I am also looking forward to the kind of person I will be next month, four months, and a year from now. I'm already starting to see and feel the changes.
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/11/18 04:31 PM
Sandi2 - I see most of your posts related to responding to WW behaviors. How would you differentiate w.r.t WAW? is the approach to a WAW same as that of a WW based on what you have posted above?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/12/18 03:40 PM
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Sandi2 - I see most of your posts related to responding to WW behaviors. How would you differentiate w.r.t WAW? is the approach to a WAW same as that of a WW based on what you have posted above?


From my experience and my observations the differences start in the mindset/heart of the WW/WAW. The WAW has no ulterior motive or secret agenda (unless she is saving herself and her children from a dangerous situation). Perhaps I should say she has not selfish secret agenda that involves another man. The WAW's character has not changed. She doesn't compromise her integrity and moral character. She doesn't forsake her children in order to live a "Girls Gone Wild" lifestyle. She doesn't engage in any inappropriate relationship with OM. If she leaves her husband, it is b/c the H made her life and/or the children's life so intolerable and unhappy that it's a choice to get out of bad situation. There's many levels to this scenario, ranging from the H being a jerk, not providing for his family,......to him being abusive, an alcoholic/drug addict, being imprisoned, etc. His actions kills her love. However, there is no change in who she is as a person. She may choose to leave him and make positive changes in her life.......but her personality, character, overt behavior, treatment of others, moral code of conduct, etc. that identifies who she is...…..basically does not change. She may have negative feelings toward her H, but it does not turn her into a wayward woman who loses her moral compass.

For the wayward W, it begins with resentment that has never been resolved or forgiven. This is usually connected/projected to the H, and she may carry the resentment for years. In fact, it grows......and grows. The resentment turns to feelings of disrespect for him as her H and as a man. It can turn to feelings of contempt. Her feelings of emptiness, unhappiness, loneliness, and unfulfillment in her MR begins to consume her. Her attitude/mindset slowly takes on a bitter and rebellious tone. She starts showing signs of disrespect for her H and their MR. She may develop a sense of entitlement, and believe it's time for her to find whatever makes her happy. Her feelings are her priority. She does not have to engage in an affair in order to be classified as wayward, however, in most reports that we read on the board.....this is the case. The WW's behavior and character changes are usually radical, and is shocking to her family. Her H does not recognize who she has become. In the majority of stories I've read involving WW's, she will try to keep her A secret, especially from her parents. She may change friends, if old friends don't support her new choices/changes. If the WW is successful in making her H believe she's just not in love with him and wants a S/D and that there is no OM, yada, yada, yada...…….you can bet this woman has an hidden agenda. It is revealed as soon as the H is out of the picture, and she brings her new man on the scene. If she is not financially able to live on her own, she will announce they are IHS.....and she will cake eat until a better deal comes along for her. She has not intention of reconciling the MR. She'll usually tell her H she wants them to be friends, which means she wants him to be available for her to "use". She wants power over what he does.
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/12/18 04:38 PM
I appreciate your long written thoughts on this differences.
So how should the basic approach be in dealing with WAW vs WW?
Posted By: RyanHun Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/12/18 05:51 PM
Thank you Sandi for that description. When I first came here I thought I was dealing with a WAW but your description of WW describes what I am facing perfectly. It's actually quite shocking how accurate it fits.
Posted By: Phoenix9 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/12/18 06:23 PM
NC, have you had a chance to go Sandi's first post on this thread? She has 6 threads that go into detail about the mindset of the WW and how to approach her.
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/12/18 06:27 PM
Pain18 - I have and those are related to WW. I am actually looking for the approach for WAW..there are some subtle differences that I need to know and what they are.

Maybe it's in the best interest of forum moderators/samdi2 to setup a detailed separate thread on the approach for WAW as well.

I also know that MWD does not differentiate WAW vs WW. Where as sandi2 has disagreement on this and expects to tread slightly different if it's a WAW.
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/13/18 03:39 PM
Quote
So how should the basic approach be in dealing with WAW vs WW?



Links to this series of threads

First thread(this thread)
For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554&page=1

Second thread
For the Newcomer LBH who has a wayward wife Part 2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2548490#Post2548490

Third thread
For the LBH who has a WW Part 3
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551039#Post2551039

4th thread
Guide for LBH who has a Wayward Wife
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2551811#Post2551811

5th thread
Help for LBH who has a WW (new thread)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2593214#Post2593214

6th thread
Sandi's reflections
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2653323#Post2653323
Posted By: Nutcrac Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/13/18 04:12 PM
But Sandi2.. these are all related to WW. Not WAW correct?
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/13/18 05:04 PM
Quote
Maybe it's in the best interest of forum moderators/samdi2 to setup a detailed separate thread on the approach for WAW as well.


I feel MWD's DB/DR books give adequate guidelines for those who have a WAW. The reason I mainly post about the wayward W, is b/c I strongly believe the man has to approach the WW from the viewpoint of getting her respect, which usually requires him to use tougher love...….since she is rebelling.

Quote
But Sandi2.. these are all related to WW. Not WAW correct?


Yes, however, I did try to distinguish the WW from the WAW. No, I have not had a thread on how to address a WAW, b/c of reasons stated above.
Posted By: job Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/13/18 05:10 PM
sandi,

Please start a new thread and link your threads together. Thanks!
Posted By: sandi2 Re: Sandi's Reflections - Part 2 - 12/13/18 08:08 PM
Thanks everyone. Here's the link to the new thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2827514&#Post2827514
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