Previous thread here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2771249#Post2771249In the previous thread, Vanilla asked me if I want R with a new W and Joe2018. I'm not sure what you mean, V. Do you mean recon with my current W? Or starting a new relationship with a different woman?
Anyhow. Today is the first day I've woken up and felt partially like myself. I'm sure the moment is coming when I get dragged down into the darkness again but I'm going to keep trying to stay positive. Not about recon, not about my WW, but I'm trying to stay positive about the direction of my life and how it relates to my kid.
I am planning on taking a divorce recovery class to deal with my emotions. It has been a rollercoaster.
Today is day 3 of no contact from WW. I am not sure how I should interpret the silence from her. She is probably just busy getting it on with some OM, who I'm sure she is spending NYE with. But that is all just pure jealous speculation on my part. I have not been keeping up with her comings or goings for three weeks now, despite her constant paranoid claims that I am spying on her.
I am about to start a new life. She can come along with me if she is willing to R and do the hard work. Otherwise, I will be getting a D and moving on without her. She already filed the paperwork, so now I just have to decide if I want my attorney to take things slow or move as fast as possible. Either way it's a done deal unless WW stops the process.
I feel like I'm doing a decent job of GAL. Physically, I can already tell a marked difference in my appearance from the work I've been doing. I'm back to my boot camp weight. Professionally, my career is doing well and I'm on track for great things. Mentally, I'm still working on recovery. My emotional needs are definitely not being met at all. I have a ways to go before I am over this situation. I still have moments of unfounded fear, which I'm told is part of PTSD. That [censored], and is very scary.
I have been thinking about what Sandi said about WW losing respect for me. I think it started when I got this new job sitting behind a desk, instead of being active on duty. I do not know what it will take to get her respect back. I am at a loss there, because I am never going back to the military. I haven't had a drop in career confidence, and she knows my job is going really well. I worked hard to get where I am professionally and I will not give that up for anyone because it is how I am going to support my kid.
Gaining back her respect is a tough one to strategize. I don't know what it will take.
Today has me thinking about my wife's faith. She has always been a Christian as long as I've known her and I know she is not attending church services anymore. I know her guilt must be destroying her internally, but she is rationalizing it somehow.
Sandi, you mentioned in another thread that your faith was a big part of your life before the A. How did it relate to your R and how did you justify your actions? I am just trying to gain some insight into a huge part of my WW's life that she seems to have abandoned.
We would normally be headed to church as a family today, but now it's just me and my boy. Got me thinking, that's all. I know her faith is was of the cornerstones of her life, and she kicked that aside just like she did me and my son.
Joe2017,
Interesting q about faith. My stbx was a real life church lady. She stopped going when she got involved in her current affair. These days the affair is still going strong and she has returned to church. I would think it would be difficult to go to church and then spend the day with your affair partner, but as has been pointed out to me many times, that would be too logical. So don’t assume she’s not going or that she is filled with guilt. Maybe she is filled with guilt. Maybe she doesn’t feel guilty at all.
What is important is that you and your boy are the family now...without the w. My d was crying about her absent mother and her lack of family...and I just reassured her that I loved her and that we are still a family...without her mother. Happy new year!
Yeah I think it's safe to assume I cannot understand how her mind works at this point. There just isn't any logic to anything she does so no sense in trying to figure it out. WW is not W. Different person now.
I am about to start a new life. She can come along with me if she is willing to R and do the hard work.
That's the spirit! No need to tell her those words. Just let her do her own thing, while you are becoming the best possible version of Joe.
Otherwise, I will be getting a D and moving on without her. She already filed the paperwork, so now I just have to decide if I want my attorney to take things slow or move as fast as possible. Either way it's a done deal unless WW stops the process.
Whether you rush or drag it out, is your decision. One thing I want to point out is to not look at getting a D as your escape from a bad situation. I think you will discover that you will have to deal with the same feelings, and maybe some new ones. Going to a divorce recovery class, and doing whatever helps the PTSD, to help you cope/heal is an excellent move. Even tough guys need help with these type of issues. Giving yourself healing time and following a plan that guides through the process, is smart.
I have been thinking about what Sandi said about WW losing respect for me. I think it started when I got this new job sitting behind a desk, instead of being active on duty. I do not know what it will take to get her respect back. I am at a loss there, because I am never going back to the military. I haven't had a drop in career confidence, and she knows my job is going really well. I worked hard to get where I am professionally and I will not give that up for anyone because it is how I am going to support my kid.
I suppose only she could tell you if that had something to do with the respect factor. Perhaps it was the "image" you portrayed when in active duty. She may have been more attracted to that image than the one you have on a desk job. Maybe she saw you more masculine, driven, more dominant.
When I was writing this rely, I had the thought of starting a new thread about the things that cause women to lose respect and attraction for their H. So, I paused submitting this post long enough to start another topic. I have to do it while it's on my brain, least I'll forget.
Anyway, it's titled Sandi's Reflections - Part 2, if you want to review it.
So I read the post and it was a great list of things that can go wrong.
For me it might have been my struggle with taking control of every situation. She's such a controlling person that she would turn my decisions into arguments. When we would finally come to an understanding of that dynamic, she would say that she understands and will work on it. That didn't really get worked on, despite counseling. It would happen over and over, and then she would tell me I don't make any of the important decisions yet never relinquish any control over situations when I did try to take control. It was a constant cycle that I couldn't break, so I guess at some point I got tired of fighting. Maybe she viewed that as me being less dominant.
Who knows. Everything else I'm pretty strong on. Career is strong, parenting is strong, no weird emotional crap (until now), not a mamas boy, not lazy with yardwork and not a househusband inside, etc. No addictions, no drugs, no extramarital things. Emotionally available but not a nice guy. I wasn't a fat slob.
I dunno. Who knows. Not sure it makes a difference now.
For me it might have been my struggle with taking control of every situation. She's such a controlling person that she would turn my decisions into arguments.
Well, I wasn't referring to the H dealing with a controlling W. If your W is the control freak, and you were trying to take some of her control away.....then that's closer to the issue, IMHO. It can become a impasse.
JJ....show her a happy, strong, confident and emotionally stable person who in the face of adversity doesn't waiver......that is how you can start to earn respect back. Essentially you have to start from square one and build up the attraction all over again. She needs to start to see you in a different light that is how you flip the script. The stronger you get the weaker she gets and you are no longer scared by D. Lovingly detach, don't make it punitivenor out of spite/anger.
So, today is the fourth day in a row that she has not contacted me at all since I started NC. What are the most likely reasons for this? The last contact I had from her was a long angry email where she was clearly out of control, and then a neutral email about paying bills. I know this NYE she was probably out on the town with some OM, but again. That's just me being jealous.
Joseph:
I do plan on all of those things. The past couple weeks of NC has given me a lot of insight into this situation. I feel like it will be a volatile return to my home so I am going to be very careful not to stir the pot. She is very likely going to have a moment when she tries to yell at me and blame me for all of her problems. That's going to be difficult, but I think I'm ready for it.
Poker face. She's a check out clerk. Polite but impersonal. Detached, but from a good place in my heart.
Well, I wasn't referring to the H dealing with a controlling W. If your W is the control freak, and you were trying to take some of her control away.....then that's closer to the issue, IMHO. It can become a impasse.
She did mention some crap about me being too selfless and putting her and the kids ahead of myself too much. I dunno. I never really did that to the point of being detrimental. Whenever I wanted something I'd get it. I never deprived myself.
I think it may just be another excuse.
I feel like it will be a volatile return to my home so I am going to be very careful not to stir the pot. She is very likely going to have a moment when she tries to yell at me and blame me for all of her problems. That's going to be difficult, but I think I'm ready for it.
You may never really never know what caused it. The best advice I can give you is to take stock of how you feel about yourself as a man and work to improve on those things. For me it meant my physical appearance, new clothes, etc. It also meant getting off the couch and dong more things with my D's and being active outside around the house.
Try really hard to not get sucked in emotionally, IMO early on it is very important because she is just looking for reasons to confirm she made the right decision. Anything she can grab onto to fuel her fire she will, right now you can't help your R you can only hurt it. If you feel yourself starting to get sucked in please catch yourself and let your W know you would like to have this conversation at a later date in a calm manner. Listen, validate but walk away in a calm manner if she starts to yell. Not getting sucked in is how you can get respect back. If you yell back, or go tit for tat the cycle will continue.
Thanks Joseph. I will make sure I validate and walk away.
Today I need to message WW about money. Is it OK to break NC and initiate communication if I am trying to get a bill paid?
Gaining back her respect is a tough one to strategize. I don't know what it will take.
Without reading the rest of the thread, I think your focus is a little off here. Instead of trying to gain her respect, I would recommend to work to be a man who demands respect from others.
See, you cant control whether or not she respects you. But you can and should work to be someone who is respected. And you can also remove people from your life who treat you with disrespect.
J....Accuracy posted this about dealing with an upset spouse. I thought I would share. IF it is a must that you contact your W and it can't wait then contact her.
If W is having a temper tantrum the "hierarchy of strength" is as follows:
1) Stay in her presence and maintain your composure. This is the hardest thing to do, therefore it takes the most strength. I heard a talk once where the person asked "if you were at a restaurant with your spouse and you wanted to make them instantly very angry, would you know what to do or say?" For most people the answer is "definitely" -- she knows what buttons to push. (The other half of that was "if you wanted to make them feel loved would you know what to do or say?" and that tends to be more elusive)
Staying in her presence doesn't mean you have to tolerate anything. You can just calmly repeat "I will not engage in conversation with you if you ________. If you want to discuss this calmly, I'm happy to talk to you." Lather, rinse, repeat.
2) Announce to her that you're going to leave the conversation and why (calmly). Then give her a chance to continue the conversation on your terms. If she doesn't abide by your boundaries, then you leave, and explain that you told her what you needed, she didn't do it, and now you're leaving the conversation.
3) Explain to her that you're going to leave the conversation, but don't give her a chance to correct her behavior, just leave.
4) Leave the conversation without explaining to her why you're doing it.
5) Let her get your emotions up and lose your temper.
Evaluate where you are on the spectrum -- if you're at 3 or 4, don't try to just shoot for 1 because chances are you won't be able to do it. Just try to go one notch up the scale until that feels comfortable, and then try to go one more notch up. Be patient with yourself, changing behavior is very hard and takes time and repetition, but eventually it becomes automatic.
That's a great strategy. I appreciate detailing the different levels like that.
I'm usually somewhere between 1 and 3, depending on the mood of WW.
Today is day five of no communication from her to me in any form. NC has been good for my mind. I do have to contact her regarding a bill that has to get paid so that breaks the silence, unfortunately.
I guess I will just have to grin and bear it until this D is over. I know I can't rush this process, because our state has a divorce cooldown period. I do think if the D was over and done with I'd be able to start healing faster. I just have to endure it.
So, today is the fourth day in a row that she has not contacted me at all since I started NC. What are the most likely reasons for this?
I would say the most likely reason is she doesn't want to talk to you. One of the things I learned from Sandi that was quite an eye-opener is that often the WAS is just sick and tired of the LBS. They usually don't like the LBS and sometimes even hate them. They are heaping a lot of blame and resentment on the LBS, and every time the LBS texts or emails or calls it's just a reminder of how much they hate communication with them. So when you go NC, it FINALLY gives them a break. It gives them some room to breathe. LBSs tend to think the WAS is so broken up about losing the LBS that all the LBS has to do is say the right thing and the WAS will come running back. So the LBS keeps trying and trying to "say" whatever that magic phrase is. But there isn't one, and all that talking and contact is just pressure on the WAS when they want zero pressure. Every bit of pressure just makes things worse.
Anyway what you should not be doing right now is fretting over why she's not contacting you. NC is for YOU, not her. You go NC to gather yourself up, change your focus, recharge and develop a plan for moving YOURSELF forward from here.
AS:
Right. Alright, just so there's no confusion, I have put no effort into sending her any communication that is not business. Even then it is one maybe two sentences. The last time she really tried to communicate was 5 days ago when she asked me to call her. I did not. Eventually I got a scathing message from her that was really out of control. I did not respond. That was the real last communication other than an email about money. She went dark after that.
I have not tried to say anything to "get her back" in at least 2.5-3 weeks. We are only about 6 weeks into this sitch now so I detached relatively early on.
After I went NC she would message me daily but got no response from me. Now she's gone dark too.
I think what's getting to me the most is the deep sense of loneliness I'm experiencing. Despite being surrounded by family, co-workers, and friends I always feel so alone. I'm a man and I feel like I need a woman. And I'm denied that because I'm still married and I don't believe in cheating. I'm trying not to harbor resentment for WW, but that's a daily struggle that I've been having.
NC has helped me a lot, but I still miss so much of my old life before BD. Oh well... Guess it takes time.
The first 1.5 months are extremely hard and contained some of my darkest days. It does get better with time. Focus on yourself, try not to worry about what she is up to or thinking. Like they say use your time wisely, take stock of your life and what areas you would like to improve on for yourself and work on making those improvements.
At first you will miss yuor old life but as you continue down the path at some point you will realize you weren't overly happy either in the relationship. Find your own happiness so you don't need to rely on anyone else for it.
Everything you said is true. I'm trying so hard to do this the right way. It is not easy. This is harder than anything I've been through before, and that's a lot of crap.
It is very hard and does not come to easy to some. Everyone is wired differently so some aspects of this will be harder than others. It should really feel like you are doing nothing to save your MR I read some where that those who try the hardest have the least success and I believe it. Be lose, let go, turn your W over to the world and what will be will be.
Focus on you.
Yes, that is what I'm doing, leaving it up to God. The hard part is dealing with the mood swings, the unpredictability, and the emotional aspect. I feel like I'm being constantly abused.
I am actually having a good time doing stuff on my own and with my boy again. I wasn't always married so we will be fine eventually.
I hope that starting DB 3 weeks after BD wasn't too late. I am getting close to being indifferent about the D. I can see myself going either way, and both seem like they are daunting tasks of their own.
R seems like so much uncertainty and work on her part, but family is kept together.
D rips my heart to shreds and splits the family, but might be easier to handle.
I really hate this but I didn't choose this path, she did.
DB is hard work
That work is for you, about you and on you.
It's the toughest work you will ever do.
And I am minded of the Gardner who when told his garden was lovely and God had done a great deal of work said "yes, but you should have seen it when God had it to himself"
V
V:
I'm doing my best. I know I am going in the right direction, I just do not like how my emotions are still so raw. Less now than 2 weeks ago, but I still have these serious moments of panic that can be paralyzing for a short time.
These episodes have become less intense so that's good.
WW finally texted me some crap about the house. It didn't fit my rules for communication so it was ignored. It feels good to be in control again.
After an entire night of tossing and turning, I've begun to seriously let go of the idea of recon. I haven't had any real sleep and reading post after post I realized that the majority of LBS do not get a chance at R.
She's out wearing skimpy clothes that she would never wear for me when we were married, and yet I think I want her back? What's my freaking malfunction!?!!?
I see no reason to continue my suffering any longer. It's too late... she has OM, and I have nothing but a mess on my hands. Time to cut my losses and move on.
Maybe this is part of the DB process, I don't know. I love GAL and 180s but just because of how it makes me feel about myself. So I will continue GAL but I know she doesn't give a crap about me anymore, and she doesn't give a crap about my kid (or hers) anymore.
So I shouldn't care about her anymore either. Sad but true. I have my own interests to protect. I can't keep doing this, it is too painful and it will only leave me broken.
I am seriously entertaining the thought of taking all of her things out of the MBR and putting a lock on the MBR door that only I have a key to. I can't kick her out of the house but I can kick her out of a room. Will it be traumatic for the kids? Yeah. Will she blame me? Yeah. Do I care? No, not really.
I'm closer to being done with this than I ever have been before.
If I'm wrong someone talk me down off this ledge.
Joe,
You have been at this for less then a month. This is probably the hardest thing you will ever do in your life. This is a marathon not a sprint.
Yes, the odds are against a recon right now but not impossible.If you recon it is likely it is a long ways away.
If you put in the hard work you will be fine either way.
Only you know if you are done.
I promise you it does get easier and you will survive this and possibly be better off.
I think all of this is fine. I think putting a lock on the MBR might be going overboard. Just make it clear to her that she's no longer welcome in the MBR and she can sleep in another room. Calm and collected.
I think that being done mentally is a good place to be and just move on and do what you want. I think if you're taking this approach, take a look at TxHubby's sitch. He did the steamroll DB, not giving a f$ck approach. I think this might apply to you as you're not able to kick her out of the house.
You are spinning, sleepless nights are normal early on. Most LBS don'ts have a chance at recon because they lose patience. Some also never come back and update their sitchs so you never know what happened. Others come here DOA.
Why do you care what she is wearing? Why are you following her on SM? How does this help you detach and move on? Is this benefiting you?
You should not suffer any longer so move on, start detaching, sart taking care of yourself and not worrying what she is up to.
Your right she doesn't care about you so you should stop worrying about her as well. If you don't detach and get her out of your head and life it will be very painful and it will break you. Your MR is dead and over, you need to start accepting this. The only way this works is if you view the old MR as dead and in the future you might be able to start a new one.
If there is OM then she should not be in the MBR....you don't share your MBR with a cheater.
Get control of your emotions.........that is how you can gain respect.
.Why do you care what she is wearing? Why are you following her on SM? How does this help you detach and move on? Is this benefiting you?
To be clear, I am not following her on SM. I'm going by what she was wearing when she came home from a party. I haven't seen her nor had any voice communication in 2 weeks. I have not checked on her whereabouts, her SM, or anything else during this time. This reaction about her clothes is just a result of me being insulted by her behavior.
I took the MBR back around week 2 into this process, but I have been away from home for a couple weeks now so I am taking it back when I return. She is well aware of this and has mentioned her disdain for it but she can't do anything about it either.
What a pain. I'm going to start the hardcore IDGAF because I can't care anymore. I have to focus ALL of the good emotions I have left on myself and my kid.
Joe,
First DON’T GIVE UP HOPE.
I see this so much: Quite new LBS’s will get to a point where the going gets tough and you see no future with your WS, statistically speaking A’s don’t have that great a chance of evolving into a long term relationship. I think I read less than 10% and those that do leave their long term partner for their AP/LO and re-marry only 3% remain married after 5-years.
What I do suggest though is FORGET ABOUT HER, realise you have no control over her and if RC is what you want then you’re on her timeline. What is the point of putting a lot of focus on the what’s where’s and why’s which is hurting you mentally?
You need to understand to a degree she can’t help what she’s doing, she should never have crossed the line but now that she has she’s hooked/infatuated FOR THE TIME BEING! As with everything in nature with time deterioration has to happen, habitual hibernation will eventually kick in and the dopamine will subside, now she might stay and live a lesser life with her AP/LO once this all happens BUT with you DR’ing for your future life without realising it the attraction this creates could draw her back.
Yes realise the MR is dead but also have one eye on MR 2.0, the sooner you understand you have no control over her A the better.
With every day that passes the more common their relationship becomes…
Hope this helps.
Mark.
Oh by the way usually many BS who do achieve RC no longer feel the need to post on here so take what you see with a pinch of salt.
Joe: My W moved out Sep. 1. Before that she shut down totally. I was a total mess, had to use sleeping pills etc. Early on I decided to get therapy and went to MC by myself. But not after I started reading posts here it came clear to me. I was clinging to the thought that I can fix her, save our M by myself, defending her actions to others, trying to figure out what is "wrong" with her etc. I understood I need to stop that. Everyone close to me tried to tell me the same, EVEN MY W!!!. "Let her go" But when it came from the "outside" from an objective source it really hit me. Everyone was right. This is the hardest thing you will ever do. Me losing my brother almost at the same time with a couple of BDs didn't help. But now I now that will have the resilience of a tank. It's going to take alot to bring me down in the future. Take day by day. Don't give alot to what she looks like, what she wears. In part she does it to get to you. Just let it pass. And throw her out of the MBR!
Best wishes lad! You'll make it. We all do eventually.
Joe,
Slow down, take a breath and breath. Please go for a walk or long car drive. Remember this is not a sprint it's a marathon. There will be days when you want to throw in the towel, but you did the right thing by coming to the board first.
I called a lawyer after about three weeks of DB to ask about D, and the lawyer told me to explain my situation, and she told me I wasn't ready to D, she also said my W wasn't ready, even after I explained all that was going on. She told me that she has dealt with a lot of M and D and we haven't gotten to that point of D yet.
Most LBS have been where you at, I was spinning for weeks, but you have to find a way to let the old M go and work on yourself, make yourself on a person a fool would leave. The only way to do that, is not worry or care about what your W is doing. Now it's time for you to start to get better. I talked to GOD and found my grace. Once I felt GOD's grace, I was able to slow myself down and react and act in the moments I needed to around my W and for myself.
This is the hardest thing you will ever do, it will come with mistakes, wanting to give up on the M and your W. It will also come with you wanting to show your W a attractive, confident, positive, and masculine Joe2018, not Joe2017. Let's go Joe2018. A new and better you.
Joejoe: I read an article just today about being ready to D. I don't think we're ready either. At least according to the article. It's funny when the other half is so keen on pushing it forward but they really are not ready. Not understanding what it really means to divorce.
To be clear, I am not following her on SM
Good!
I'm going by what she was wearing when she came home from a party. I haven't seen her nor had any voice communication in 2 weeks. I have not checked on her whereabouts, her SM, or anything else during this time. This reaction about her clothes is just a result of me being insulted by her behavior.
Good! Just don't let her know or show her you are insulted by her behavior. Keep your feelings close to your vest. Poker right?
I took the MBR back around week 2 into this process, but I have been away from home for a couple weeks now so I am taking it back when I return. She is well aware of this and has mentioned her disdain for it but she can't do anything about it either.
Good.....she is cheating and you don't share your bed with a cheater. She made a choice and their are consequences to her decision.
What a pain. I'm going to start the hardcore IDGAF because I can't care anymore. I have to focus ALL of the good emotions I have left on myself and my kid.
Good! our kid should be priority number 1! Just remember in your IDGAF attitude to not come across as cold, punitive or vindictive. Some people confuse detaching with coming across as angry or cold. IF it seems that way to you then you will need to tweak. Make sense?
I think what's getting to me the most is the deep sense of loneliness I'm experiencing. Despite being surrounded by family, co-workers, and friends I always feel so alone. I'm a man and I feel like I need a woman. And I'm denied that because I'm still married and I don't believe in cheating. I'm trying not to harbor resentment for WW, but that's a daily struggle that I've been having.
I can't remember if this was in Michele's books or another book I read, but somewhere I read about "need" versus "want" and it has really stuck with me. It's OK to "want" someone, but when you "need" someone then there is something wrong within you, a void you're trying to fill with someone else. One of the most critical steps in recovering from the loss of your spouse is learning to be happy BY YOURSELF. If you don't love yourself then you are ill-equipped to love someone else. After BD we feel defeated and worthless, so recovering requires building back up our self-esteem and confidence. And that is exactly what DB'ing is all about. Get out. GAL. Work on yourself. Become the spouse only a fool would leave. Get back to a healthy place in your life (physically and emotionally), and then you will be ready to start a new R with your W or someone else. It takes time, personally I think anyone who starts dating less than a year after BD is rushing things.
I hope that starting DB 3 weeks after BD wasn't too late.
Meaning you still want to save your M? Then why say this in the next breath:
I am getting close to being indifferent about the D.
I don't think you're being honest with yourself. Your emotions are clearly still all over the place. And that is perfectly fine, these things take time and it is totally normal to have crazy emotions for the first few months. If you tell me in a year that you are indifferent about the D then I'll believe you. But right now? It's still too raw for you to know that. Don't try to convince yourself you're done, you've got a long road ahead of you before you can come to that conclusion.
I really hate this but I didn't choose this path, she did.
I read this sentiment a lot on these boards, especially right after BD. The thing is, if you ask her then she will say YOU are the reason this happened. There's a reason that most states have gone to no-fault divorce, the courts have given up and thrown their hands in the air in trying to figure out whose fault D is. You say she dropped the bomb, she says you neglected her for years. Who is right? Here's the truth of the matter- we all put our M's on autopilot and they withered away while we weren't looking. I firmly believe that BOTH spouses are to blame when a M fails. Own your part in it and quit trying to assign blame. Blame leads to resentment, resentment to anger and hatred.
After an entire night of tossing and turning, I've begun to seriously let go of the idea of recon. I haven't had any real sleep and reading post after post I realized that the majority of LBS do not get a chance at R.
After 6 weeks? Here's what I think is going on, you want the pain to end. You're thinking that if you give up hope, get a D and start a new R with someone else then that'll make all the pain go away. But it won't. You can't rush your recovery, you've got to be patient.
By the way most LBS's do get a chance at recon. But not on the timeline they want. Usually it's years later, and by then they've moved on and are no longer interested.
I'm closer to being done with this than I ever have been before.
I really don't think you're in the state of mind right now to know that. Like we say, this is a marathon, not a sprint. Take a deep breath. Recenter yourself. Get out and GAL and keep yourself busy and don't worry about whether your M is dead or not, that's for you to figure out much, much later. Ask yourself, why would you want to throw all your W's stuff out of the MBR and lock the door? Is that coming from a place of love and forgiveness or anger and resentment? What are your goals? Does that action get you closer to your goals or farther away?
EVERY ONE OF YOU IS RIGHT.
I'm all over the place emotionally. But I decided to do it here instead of at home. In front of WW I have to be cool and calm. I can't flip flop there. I can do it here and thank God for you all who can slap me back into reality.
Do I want recon? Man I wish it was that easy. Don't we all? I know I wasn't perfect in our marriage, and I did contribute to her resentment. And vice versa! Probably even more!
Yes I want the pain to end. I couldn't get the image of her out living the GGW single life out of my mind. I know I have to give up on the M. It's over. Obviously. What we had will never come back. There is only the future.
Throwing her stuff out of the MBR is honestly me wanting to show more dominance and more evidence that I'm dumping her. If I could toss her out of the house I would. "Go live your life and stop dragging me down."
I am tired. I'm sleepy. I'm exhausted. I'm at the end of my rope. I no longer care what she says to me anymore. Her lies and insults don't bother me anymore. I outright expect her to be nuts now. I have no connection to this new "wife". I'm holding onto what she once WAS, not what she is NOW.
This is tough. Thanks for everyone's help. Really.
Joe,
Don't hold on to what she was. Hope for what she can become. Because the people you and her were is why you are here. She has as much work to do as you if you'll recon.
Let go of that okd M and W. They are long gone, never to return.
Keep you head up. Onward and forward.
I don't know what she can become. She has the heart of a WW right now and that is a scary thing to deal with. She will constantly try to play mind games and blame me for everything. It is not going to be a good time returning to the home.
She is in the rebellion phase. Blaming me for her lack of finances and freedom (lol?) when those are ultimately the results of her own actions. I've read a lot of Sandi's posts and I know that this is normal wayward behavior. It will not be easy to deal with.
She looks like my beautiful wife but she is an evil twin. I have to deal with this even keeled and calmly. Nothing she says will be logical. Everything will be accusatory. She is going to make my life hell as much as possible, I think.
This will take a lot of prayers.
And that is perfectly fine, these things take time and it is totally normal to have crazy emotions for the first few months. If you tell me in a year that you are indifferent about the D then I'll believe you. But right now? It's still too raw for you to know that. Don't try to convince yourself you're done, you've got a long road ahead of you before you can come to that conclusion.
AS:
To be honest, I haven't much time left in this marriage. Am I rushing? I sort of just have to. She filed D a week after BD. Everything I've read here says to just sign the paperwork if it looks fair and my attorney agrees. I've already been served the initial paperwork.
So. Do I desire to recon? Yes. Do I desire to D? Yes. But I have no choice in the matter. I could drag it out, but what's the point in that?
People can recon after the divorce. So there's that.
We are basically one month into the two month cool down period. I have one more month before any kind of litigation can occur. I hoping for a miracle, I guess. LOL
Hang in there J...I am 7 mths in and I can tell you it does get better with time. Nothing can take away the pain you are currently feeling, all of us have been there. Sleepless nights, the pit in your stomach, emotional ups and downs, loss of appetite, etc. Be kind and patient with yourself, there is no magic cure. Time is really the only thing that heals. I had those thoughts early on, the wondering, the questions, the anger, it was all there. 1 foot in front of the other, minute by minute, hour after hour, day after day.
Joe - BTW how many Joes?
Time will heal you. But you need to give time space to work. Detaching, GAL are all mechanisms to get space from the madness. NC is very important. Stay off the rollercoaster.
I’ll try and keep an eye on your posts.
You will get there, you already are. You can’t tell if you will R, might do, might not but you will be very happy again.
Keep going you are doing great.
Surfer.
Thanks everyone.
I had to end full NC and go limited NC under the same roof. I went back to my home. I love the TXHubby approach, and I am trying to go that route.
This sitch is upsetting because it causes so much division between our two boys. But when it comes down to it, hers is hers and mine is mine. I hate that they are caught in the middle.
I came back to find all family photos hidden away (thrown?) and she has divided the MBR and kitchen into "her side" and my side. She has told me not to talk to her son. She is telling me that he is saying things about me that he is not saying.
Basically she is super mad that I went NC and would not communicate AND she's upset about having to relinquish the MBR. She said I'm trying to control her now, and that the lack of communication from me justifies her decision to D. Blah blah.
I only said three things to her today, "Hi" "OK" and "I'm staying out of your space".
Oh and she's left "evidence" of her A around the house for me to find. It's beginning to feel really abusive and manipulative. I am glad to be home but I do not deserve this abuse.
I know she is trying to mind#&____ me. It's getting under my skin slightly but at least I recognize what she's doing.
And by space I meant her personal space around her present location. Not her imaginary lines in the sand.
OK, does NC backfire? In the sense that today she is so mad about my NC that she has a surprise for me today and it could have been avoided if I had only talked to her over the past couple weeks. Doesn't sound promising.
I have been doing Sandi's "store clerk" mentality. She tried taking the MBR back but I calmly held my ground so she stormed off and called me a control freak.
This is lovely.
Joe,
We usually tell people not to move out when there are children involved because it may effect them legally in a custody dispute. Since there should be no custody disputes in your situation have you considered moving out to get away from the madness?
Joe,
This is the hardest bit. No matter what you say, little, lots or NC you get it in the neck. They try to get you to leave, argue, hit them.....all sorts. Just focus on not reacting. By all means listen if you can handle it but know that whatever comes out is most likely a lie or something to draw you into an argument. Do not take the bait - it won’t work in your favour. Just listen and validate or exit and stay quiet.
Do not act like a doormat. Just carry on being you and try to take an “Oh dear, never mind” approach. Imaging she is engaged having rant. That’s all she has reverted to. No different. Just be the parent. Stay quiet and tell calmly. Feel sorry for her not angry at her. But again, do not get drawn in. Every question or statement from her will be an invitation for an arguement.
You might need to practice some standard stock lines. “Sounds Like you are really upset”. “Sounds tough”. There’s a few pages of them somewhere in other posts.
Keep strong. You can do this.
Surfer.
AS:
To be honest, I haven't much time left in this marriage. Am I rushing? I sort of just have to. She filed D a week after BD. Everything I've read here says to just sign the paperwork if it looks fair and my attorney agrees. I've already been served the initial paperwork.
So. Do I desire to recon? Yes. Do I desire to D? Yes. But I have no choice in the matter. I could drag it out, but what's the point in that?
I understand that, but my point was more about you and your state of mind than the M or D. You're talking about "being done" and "being indifferent about the D" and I'm just saying that based on your posts I don't think you are anywhere close to done, and I don't think you're being honest with yourself about your feelings. You can't stop the D but that doesn't mean you're mentally OK with it or don't care about it.
I had to end full NC and go limited NC under the same roof. I went back to my home. I love the TXHubby approach, and I am trying to go that route.
Just make sure that you're not trying it as one of many strategies (which I'm getting the impression is exactly what you're doing). If you keep changing strategies every couple of weeks it just sends her mixed signals and contributes to her anger and resentment. The very reason it worked for TXH is because it WASN'T a strategy. He was beyond done with his W and her cheating ways and her emotional abuse and cake-eating. He had an epiphany that he was in control of his life and that he had been fighting for a W that didn't exist anymore, she had been replaced by a lying cheater he didn't even want. If you feel the same about your W then by all means go for it, but if you're just trying this out to see what happens then it's likely not going to go well.
Basically she is super mad that I went NC and would not communicate AND she's upset about having to relinquish the MBR. She said I'm trying to control her now, and that the lack of communication from me justifies her decision to D. Blah blah.
That's a pretty predictable response from her.
OK, does NC backfire? In the sense that today she is so mad about my NC that she has a surprise for me today and it could have been avoided if I had only talked to her over the past couple weeks. Doesn't sound promising.
NC is not intended to restore marriages. It is for when a situation is so toxic that the LBS has to do it to keep from going crazy. I've got to say though, you are sending her huge mixed signals by going NC and then suddenly moving back home. But when it comes to this stuff nothing ever really "backfires" because most WAS's are so far gone that nothing but time will bring them back anyway. But, it is very common for WAS's to blame the LBS for the WAS's choices and actions- "you've forced my hand" kind of crap. Don't believe it, she's just trying to guilt-trip you.
Surfer:
Thanks for the support. She is having a temper tantrum. It's old hat at this point. I think she and a friend are scheming on a way to force me out of the home. She was very mad about MBR. I told her she can sleep anywhere but I'm sleeping in the bed. I don't care if she sleeps there but I'm not sleeping anywhere else. She slept in another room after calling me a control freak.
AS:
I had to move back to my home per my attorney. I tried to get out, but my lawyer told me definitely not.
I had went NC on text and phone a week prior to the two week break I took away from her. While I was away from home it was as close to 100% NC as possible. When I came back, I took the store clerk mentality.
All I said today was "hello", "oh ok" and I said that her texts during the break did not meet my rules. She said I needed to change my rules and I said "No. I don't." and left the conversation.
NC helped me a lot. Every conversation with her she turned into an argument, so I had to do something. I was able to sort out a lot of my feelings, and while my emotions are still raw, I was able to finally think without her bothering me all the time. I think NC helped deal with the "withdrawals" the LBS can have from their spouse basically disappearing.
Today I listened to a song on the radio that I haven't been able to listen to since BD. I don't even recognize my W anymore. She's a totally different person. I also have a different sitch than TXHubby because WW already filed for D. I think today I decided that all I really want to do until this is over is sleep in the MBR and be left alone by WW.
None of her insults or threats have any sting to them anymore. I just don't care. When it involves my kid, thats a totally different story.
I had to move back to my home per my attorney. I tried to get out, but my lawyer told me definitely not.
Ah, I see your reasoning. Makes sense.
All I said today was "hello", "oh ok" and I said that her texts during the break did not meet my rules. She said I needed to change my rules and I said "No. I don't." and left the conversation.
Good!
NC helped me a lot. Every conversation with her she turned into an argument, so I had to do something.
Yeah, that's exactly when NC is needed.
I don't even recognize my W anymore. She's a totally different person. I also have a different sitch than TXHubby because WW already filed for D. I think today I decided that all I really want to do until this is over is sleep in the MBR and be left alone by WW.
Well it may be a little different, but I think there are a lot of parallels. His W was very angry/argumentative/confrontational like yours is, and had that same haughty attitude. It's amazing how she snapped out of it though, it really does go to show that even though WAS's often change into unrecognizable monsters they -can- change back again.
None of her insults or threats have any sting to them anymore. I just don't care.
That's kind of the point TXH got to as well. It sounds like maybe this isn't a "strategy" to you after all as I mentioned earlier, but rather your state of mind really is similar to his now. You've had enough and you're going to do your thing and leave her to her mess.
I understand that, but my point was more about you and your state of mind than the M or D. You're talking about "being done" and "being indifferent about the D" and I'm just saying that based on your posts I don't think you are anywhere close to done, and I don't think you're being honest with yourself about your feelings. You can't stop the D but that doesn't mean you're mentally OK with it or don't care about it.
Wow you are so right. I just had a little breakdown because I toured my new office at work. I worked so hard to get this new job and move up the ladder and I did it for my family and my wife. And I just wanted to make them proud. I wanted to bring my W to my job one day and say "Hey look, everything is going to work out and we're going to be great!" But now she literally hates me.
I know this falls under GAL for myself and nobody else. This job is now to build a better life for my one kid, not my has-been family.
I can't explain my emotional state anymore. I start counseling next week so I hope it helps me. I was very strong yesterday but today I'm back to being vulnerable and lonely.
Thank you everyone here. I don't think I'd be even halfway as stable as I am right now without you wonderful people.
That's kind of the point TXH got to as well. It sounds like maybe this isn't a "strategy" to you after all as I mentioned earlier, but rather your state of mind really is similar to his now. You've had enough and you're going to do your thing and leave her to her mess.
I am so tired of her BS that I just want her to leave me the F alone! She said she didn't want to be around me at all yesterday and she hates my guts, etc. I just said "OK, then leave" and I went back to my workout. It's maddening and I just want her to go away!!!!!
So tired of the mind games! Like, you CANNOT get mad at me for leaving you completely the F alone and then tell me in your next breath that you hate the sound of my voice. I mean, really!?
She is just unrecognizable, it is really sad. I didn't know the WAW/WW was a thing! But it is, and it's REAL! This woman is in a fog just like Sandi describes in her posts.
And the worst part is that I'm powerless to change it.
In reading TXHubby's threads he believes in exposing the A. I don't know how to do this tactfully. I found out that her employer is enabling her behavior by letting her work from home and giving her financial support. I wish I could expose her lies to the world.
Now let's be clear.
There is a difference between "exposure" and enabling.
The stance is I will not lie nor cover up your A. If asked I will tell the truth. I have the right to discuss my sitch with whomever I want, whenever I want.
That's the stance and it need not be articulated.
To do otherwise is enabling.
This is entirely different from telling the world, her boss, OM other half or announcing it on FB.
If asked you can say "we separated because WW is having an A with scumbag featured slime ball grot features. Yes and she is working from home gives her more scope for dropping her knickers"
Put together your story it will help you and cut short any manipulation on her side.
If she asks you simply say "I am not going to lie about why we are S"
Well done in getting back in your home and the MBR.
V
So apparently our attorneys have contacted each other and now WW is very mad.
According to her, I am going to contest the divorce in hopes of changing her mind, which is not something I discussed with my attorney. I told my attorney I need some more time to make a decision. She is now calling me selfish, manipulative, and pathetic. I'll never be the man she wants to love, etc. Now she is going to fight me for everything, blah blah blah.
Well, that's that I guess. This one is over and done. Lol
Goodness gracious. After that long rant detailing how she thinks I'm a pathetic sniveling loser, yada yada and explaining that all communication will go through our lawyers from now on...
She has texted me several times. Sheesh.
Just keep a cool head that’s all you need to do for now. It’s as simple as that. Be you that’s it but always stay cool. Oh and don’t drink or come back after a drink. She will know your guard is down.
Just practical advice. Been there.
Surfer.
Yep you have a rager, frustrated because you aren't playing her game.
She is frustrated that her entitled ways are not being met. Like a child whose mother won't buy her a toy.
Oh and projection so, so much projection. Classic script as expected, a good L will set limits.
Smile, it's on cue, it's script and standard.
--------------------------------------
According to her, I am going to contest the divorce in hopes of changing her mind, which is not something I discussed with my attorney.
That's because it's herself she is talking about. You have laid ground rules here and it's thwarted her happy ever after dream.
I told my attorney I need some more time to make a decision.
Your attorney will be keeping this confidential.
Hers will have told her that this is a negotiation and there are guidance, rules and processes. Probably she won't get what she wants and it will be slower than she thought.
Anyone who is mature and grounded needs time, the systems are often slowing the process too. You are the adult and behaving like one. How annoying of you.
She is now calling me selfish, manipulative, and pathetic. I'll never be the man she wants to love, etc. Now she is going to fight me for everything, blah blah blah.
Projection. You do know that you are actually the reverse of their description of you when they spew like this? It's a great compliment to be described this way.
Your stance has shook her.
-------------------------------------
Goodness gracious. After that long rant detailing how she thinks I'm a pathetic sniveling loser, yada yada and explaining that all communication will go through our lawyers from now on...
Oh yes.
She has texted me several times. Sheesh.
Oh Yes!! She really 'means' what she says as this demonstrates. Afraid the new you will actually call her bluff and her little entitled dream is over. Reality bites. It's a bucket of cold water on her delusions.
-------------------------
It's all game play on her behalf. Be strong, you are doing great. Resist the temptation to tell her to grow up. Just continue to demonstrate you are an adult and you are responsible for you and she is responsible for herself.
V
V, thank you again for another insightful post.
So after a very stressful situation that involved a WW getting extremely emotional and A LOT MORE that I don't want to mention...
She sat down and wanted to talk. OK. I decided I could control the conversation at that point. I did really well. Conversation wasn't more than 5, maybe 8 minutes because of my boundaries.
She started out by lamenting that I would not talk to her during my NC but "now I'll ever know" what she wanted to talk about. OK, that's a BS guilt trip trap. Done talking about that. Next.
She thinks I am delaying the D, because I pled not guilty. No logic there, because we are still in the divorce cooldown. Also, the next round of paperwork hasn't even been done by her lawyer yet. I spent 1 or 2 minutes explaining the process and dropped it. She's just mad because she wants it to be instant. Done talking about that. Next.
She said very clearly that she wants out and does not love me. I said I know that, nothing else to say about that. Next.
She said I was mad because she wants to be with someone else. I assured her IDGAF who she is with. Point blank. I DON'T CARE. So then she tells me I might not want to sleep in the MBR bed (hint hint). I said I don't care, and tucked myself into the sheets (I washed them yesterday). She said that's not the only place. And I replied again, I don't care. That's when she got up and stormed off.
Then she got on the phone with OM, laughing and talking sweet. It's pretty insulting. She was being very loud to the point the kids can hear, even though the point of it was to get me to listen.
A WW has no boundaries at all.
I think today I really did drop the damn rope. I really don't care. I didn't want a divorce but now? I think it is a good idea.
But it does stink and the kids had to hear her going crazy. But my heart isn't hurt or stinging from what she's said.
I'm done, everyone. It's been really good getting the support and help from all of you. You have helped me more than you'll ever know.
But right now, this ultimate disrespect she is showing me and our family is just disgusting and spiteful. I can't have my kid around this mess. I've got to go.
I did absolutely no pursuit behavior today. I think she interpreted her conversation with her attorney as me pursuing. Anyways. After today, my decision is to sign the D and be done.
I'm sure I'll be back here to get more solutions as this progresses, but I've made up my mind to get this done as quick as I can.
Oh and also, I am fully aware that the OM in the bed could 100% be a lie. And the phone call could have been completely staged.
It's the level of crazy that she got to today. That's what got me. Not her words or the phone call.
Oh man, that behavior is really disgusting. Take care of yourself and your kid. I am really sorry for the situación you are in.
Joe
It's pure manipulation to get you to a place where you leave the house and the MBR.
Might be bulls**t might not be.
It's time to suggest she leave I think, her behaviour is awful at this point and damaging your children. It's cold out there for an entitled WW.
If she does this again record it! Your L can make hay with it.
And the above post is good too as evidence.
You are doing well. Be aware that once you let go ano become done then the behaviour will get worse.
I am here to listen.
V
For those who haven't recognised it, the conversation post by Joe with his WW was a spellbreaker.
The point at which he truly saw and let go of the rope.
Handled by a master in detachment. Strong assured and manly.
Becoming a man only a fool would leave.
V
Joe,
Apologies if this jumps around - I have been reading you back story so am responding to a few of your concerns (I hope).
You are now seeing her for what she is. She is WW not your W. She is all those things Sandi said and IMHO I doubt she will change back' - but she may (but don't work towards this - work towards being the best dad and version of you - "the most eligible man in town" as you quoted in an earlier post).
You have decided you don't want the WW and neither would I. I didn't and I filed.
Thoughts that may help (from exact experience):
- When you get angry and frustrated, as you have recently (which is 100% normal), you loose focus and wobble. Fully detaching is where she can not influence your moods through her actions. It is almost impossible to be 100% impervious but with practice you will improve. You will need this detachment as you move forward, in whatever way you do move forward, because you are parents together.
- When she tries to kick you out of bed. Stay put. My W tried to physically get me out (laughable now but, if I am honest, terrifying at the time). My W slept upstairs in the guest room for 2-3 years and attempted to start the D for no fault in house separation. I contested it - hoping we could R trying to DB. However, she was WW not WAS (I hoped for the former of course). However, I took control of the D which is important - as she was frankly using it as a tool to manipulate (i.e. delaying tactics etc).
- Once she was sleeping upstairs in another room she changed (looked seriously mentally unwell at times) she shifted from raging to raging level 10 - every night when the kids were in bed.
- Now the important bit. PROTECT your kids from her arguments/rages IMHO all children are vulnerable. They can all suffer from PTSD (as you can) if they see these fights even post D (should you go that way). If she tries to argue in front of kids, set the boundary - and if she does not halt, walk out. I know you are getting seriously good at doing this but you must never fail on this. She may try to follow you to pursue the argument. I have been pursued from room to room as I walked away and even locked myself in every bathroom we have had. Serious psycho behaviour and it looked really weak from my perspective - I could have left the house temporarily and did at times. As I loved her, I thought she could change. She could not and never will. She will have the same in her future R's I am 100% confident. Our R is now boundary city and she has much more respect for me as a result. For example, I have just put the phone down from an update on D's hospital visit and you would think we were still M. However, I am not going back there!!! Basically, my point is that your R will improve most likely but you will need to keep working on boundaries.
- Relevant for you now I guess, my WW offered this advice to me "Either you go, or I get somewhere else or move in with my parents". I said, "They sound like options for your to consider, not me". I had finances in lock down at this point. WW then accessed saving I had set aside in her name (a lot, stupidly) and the money and went. It cost a fortune in fairness but the point here is that I am still in MH and that is important from many perspectives. Particularly in terms of non-abandonment, child custody and finances.
- On the convenient baby sitter front. I had this, she went out lost weight (she has put it all, and more, back) started dressing sexy etc. Had wayward friends etc. If you can - don't do it. However, beware the WW becomes like a drug addict and will find a way. Therefore, expect repercussions and fireworks. The best thing to do is put the kids first, this is most important. Keep them from her harm - perhaps therefore take them away. Personally, I would take all the kids. I couldn't leave a step child to feel abandoned. Your call, but I think that would irk me (to say the least). The point is, she will go out anyway, no need to get involved. Just tell her she can do as she pleases why would you care - she is having an affair and you don't want a R with someone like that, you are too good for that.
- Exercise is your best friend Joe. It gives you time and space to clear that horrible mess that sometimes clouds your mind. It will all settle in time however.
Joe, this is the crappy bit (in house S). The really hard bit. You need to be the man you are now. You will need to control arguments by removing yourself from them, you will need to have NC as much as is possible and you will, most importantly need to stay really strong for your kids and you. I suffered the horrible cr@p you are suffering. However, I am now happy as much as the next man without this past.
You can do this and you will. Keep on doing what you are doing. You know what to do and how to do it. Just keep doing it. Yes you will have hard days, but just hit the gym or do what works.
Surfer.
Great job with that convo Joe! You didn't allow yourself to get drawn into her argument traps. You kept your responses brief and to the point. Well done! I think you are right that she was probably lying about sex with OM in the MBR and wherever else, she was trying to force you out again.
But right now, this ultimate disrespect she is showing me and our family is just disgusting and spiteful. I can't have my kid around this mess. I've got to go.
I'm curious what you mean by this, are you thinking about leaving again? Didn't your lawyer advise you to stay?
V and Surfer: thank you for the support. It is so needed now that it's not even funny.
So here's the part that I did not want to mention: all of the pursuit stuff that surfer mentioned happened earlier in the night. Room to room, she followed me. Bathroom, everything. I eventually got in the bedroom and locked the door. She called a governmental third-party, hoping they would make me leave the house. She accused me of shoving her around and slamming the door on her. They didn't buy her story and nobody got forced out or detained.
The "spellbreaker" conversation I wrote about occurred after this incident with the third-party organization.
I am now tempted to leave the MH.
Thoughts and opinions are welcome. If I leave I know it's a sign of weakness and caving. She is trying everything to get me to move out of the MH. She just escalates more and more.
AS:
Maybe the post I just made has some bearing on what I wrote. I'm contacting my attorney regarding any kind of legal protection I might be able to get.
Do not leave
Sit tight. I will respond fully shortly.
Stay focussed.
S
Thank you for the honesty and it makes a great deal of difference to the support we can give you.
This is now antisocial behaviour and triangulation. Until this point I have not seen this in your sitch.
Triangulation in your case is using a third party agency to get in the middle. I am afraid it's classic tactics. And trust me it's awful behaviour as you are experiencing it.
So this does go beyond WW behaviour and into abuse.
Locking yourself in the bathroom is ideal, absolutely.
I like the fact that this was moderated by a third party. Please ensure you get the notes from that third party.
This is very important and I can not emphasise it enough. Get those notes have them corrected if they are off beam.
Do not leave your home. If she pulls this again then lock yourself in the bathroom. Record what she does when she tries to provoke you. It's abuse and she can be removed from the marital home.
Get yourself a protection order immediately as an emergency measure.
Surfer is spot on with his analysis and he has lived this too.
Where to go for support?
Obviously convo with your L ensure your L has experience with high conflict issues. Google Cordell who have resources on their website relating to D conflict. Try domestic violence and divorce podcast. False accusations.
This [censored] big time, having been through this I know that you keep calm. You have done nothing wrong, these accusations are false and making false claims is itself a criminal charge.
In your circumstances you will have to be proactive.
This is worse than initially described. And it hurts your heart unbelievably, I know so. Thankfully WH eventually left and the in house S in these circumstances is awful.
What I have observed is that it comes in waves, a large grand finale followed by a period of silence, then another gesture, be prepared and record. If possible film it.
If I could reach through and give you a hug at this point I would do so.
I am here.
V
Should I continue limited NC?
Joe
Don’t leave the house she may move OM in!!!
Everything she says now will be an attempt to argue. Keep out of it. Just do not engage and give her a standard - I am not in the mood for this type response.
Try and stay in a different room as much you can. Get to bed early and just avoid her in the evening. In the morning get up and get to work with minimal contact.
If you are feeling you are losing it try an app called ‘headspace’. It’s free.
Exercise and do not cave in.
I have just ended a 4 hr car journey and need to spend some time with family birthday party. I will send you a more detailed note later.
What state do you live in?
Do you jointly own or rent your house?
Do you have a mortgage together
Have you locked down you accounts so your WW can not withdraw your marital assets (cash)
Work out what she can access
Obviously I am pointing you towards securing your finances. Where are you with it?
I will drop you a note later.
Stay calm and do not let her get in your head. That is her aim. Do not let her.
Final point. She may try to goad you to hit her - you must not. Of course.
Read about the drama triangle. Google ‘theremin trees’. Also ‘eric byrne the games people play’.
Surfer.
Money is safe. Joint mortgage. Split most bills.
Is this now a situation where I am just trying to get out alive, per se?
I'm in the danger zone aren't I?
I have the desire to respond to her messages to avoid conflict but I know I should maintain as much NC as possible. Right?
No are you UK based?
Yes, you are in the danger zone. I’ve done it. I am now happy and my kids are. My wife is still the same but our R is better. Forget the danger zone, just know you can and will get through it. You absolutely have this, NC is bang on.
Get out alive is a bit strong. She will only about and rage most likely. She can do nothing else if you stay calm, if you stay out of her way she can’t really do that.
Suggest you keep your phone next to you in case you wish to pick it up and say “Stop this now, I am not going to get involved in arguing, I can film you doing this if you like!”
She is only frustrated like a teenager told she can’t go out. That is it. Keep that in your mind. Trivialise her actions don’t feer her. She is not bad, just frustrated and angry. Look at her with eyes of pity rather than anger.
If you need to say anything that validates. “Oh dear”, “yes I get it” type things. Don’t engage though she will have you in an argument In not time. Only she’s wins in this. This is the drama triangle. It’s a game. The only way you win is to exit the game. Don’t play it. See below. Not watched this in full - there are others.
You can not win this one either - if she states the 3rd party (ie a sympathetic party). She will rig the fight if she can.
Got to pop back to my family stuff. Will check in later.
Don’t freak about all this. I have done it. She is just trying to pressurise you. Do not fold. Just do a bit of ‘meh’!
Will catch up later.
Surfer.
Sorry typos etc. On the phone.
Joe
Please do not respond to her messages, you do this to avoid conflict. That means the less contact you have then the less conflict, the less misinteretation there will be. Please stay Schtum. Keep her messages too. Most of them are designed to provoke or make you slip up. It's very easy to get tone in texts misinterpreted.
Have you spoken to your L? Have you filed an order of protection?
Do you have your incident report? Dealing with this requires you to stay calm and take action.
Be safe please be safe.
I have been in your position treading on eggshells. Ducking and diving, hiding out. Locking my door when I am in the house. Eating food in my room. Planning my schedule accordingly. It's the worst time of all. And I didn't have children in the mix. It took careful management but eventually WH left. His then OW didn't want him so he tried to regain control of the MH. Only my non molestation (UK version of order of P) order prevented him getting occupation. I understand this is tricky and destructive to the spirit. It's early days yet. Breathe. See how WW behaves and record, record and record.
False allegations are domestic abuse and hard to deal with. Your L needs to know that this is possible in your sitch. You already have a third party who found this unproven and that's great if you have the documents.
Sadly yes you are in the danger zone, 1 in 7 men experience partner violence and abuse. Know this, I believe you. And it's much tougher for men to get the support they need IRL. At this point you can file for an order of protection, the balance is on your side. Mustardseed WH filed an order against her on quite flimsy grounds as a tactic and it can be difficult for the spouse who has this filed against them. Please, please consider an order of protection it's the strong thing to do.
If your L isn't supportive you may need to talk to a criminal lawyer to get advice and act quickly.
Many men don't take the necessary steps at this stage to protect themselves fearing this will anger the WW or that it is somehow unmanly or lacks balls to have been abused. Think of yourself as a target of a strategic campaign rather than a victim and you will understand how this works. It's a plan to get you safely to the other side intact and with your life able to flow. That's strong and very manly indeed.
This is a terrible thing to say I know but you are a statistic, an unlucky statistic in this.
Do not despair, there are others who have got to the other side of their abusive sitches with a marvellous life of hope and joy. The remarkable and enigmatic surfer is one, Schermann another.
There was another poster called Joe here whose WW ran a sex trade business from their home with children and step children living in the same house. In house S was hell for him, I am very pleased to report he is a happy grandfather and has all of the children (including step children) around him.
Breathe, detach and do all you can to protect yourself.
Mustardseed, Ancaire, Zelda, Joe, Surfer and Schermann are all thriving after domestic abuse. V in my sitch is still ongoing with endless triangulation using the courts, false filings, manipulations of legal systems. I am though happier than I have ever been.
It's ok to take advice, it's okay to be anxious and in due course to be angry.
Post back to me if you want more chat. I will check in on you.
V
Okay. How do I do that? Is it a copyright thing?
No its board rules Surfer....
No external links, I just don't want your membership suspended.
Click on notify on the post with the links apologise and ask for the links to be removed.
V
Surfer and V:
Thank you for the resources and perspectives. I am in Texas in the US.
I did contact my attorney, and ironically the papers WW served me prohibit both of us from engaging in the type of behavior she has been exhibiting: harassment, abuse, insulting in front of children, etc. So I have been advised to let the attorney know as soon as possible that it is happening so we can press charges.
Yes, de-escalate. Record record record record! GAL. Got it.
I am maintaining as much NC as possible. I will continue doing what I'm doing. But I also know I just don't feel the same way about her anymore. It's like I'm driving off and she's in the rear view mirror getting smaller and smaller.
I think soon I might tell her I'm no longer in love with her and I want to get this divorce over and done. Wow.
What a ride.
Surfer and V:
Thank you for the resources and perspectives. I am in Texas in the US.
OK got it. That is helpful.
I did contact my attorney, and ironically the papers WW served me prohibit both of us from engaging in the type of behavior she has been exhibiting: harassment, abuse, insulting in front of children, etc. So I have been advised to let the attorney know as soon as possible that it is happening so we can press charges.
Good. Now is already too late, do it yesterday.
Yes, de-escalate. Record record record record! GAL. Got it.
Absolutely! Now for an action plan
I am maintaining as much NC as possible. I will continue doing what I'm doing. But I also know I just don't feel the same way about her anymore. It's like I'm driving off and she's in the rear view mirror getting smaller and smaller.
Yes, I know how that is. I love the analogy.
I think soon I might tell her I'm no longer in love with her and I want to get this divorce over and done.
No No No, my thoughts here, giving you my view
Stay Schtum. Avoid, de escalate, this is for YOU to know and for YOU to manage. Her thoughts are irrelevant, and your thoughts are your own. If you reconcile ever (hey, unlikely I know) there is no going back when you have said this! And you may want connection with your stepson. No burned bridges!
An OOP and D are boundaries for behaviour not feelings. Love is a choice and now you have chosen to not love but you may choose compassion eventually. And V doesn't believe forgiveness is mandatory. (Another time for those thoughts!)
Cards chest close any order. OK? Don't say too much.
Take action, that speaks louder than words! Dump her entitled ass, get your OOP. D swiftly silently and strongly. Use your feet not your mouth!
Wow.
What a ride.
-------------------------
There is a book mistakes men make in divorce mentioned on my post above which is for HIGH CONFLICT D. One of the major mistakes is saying too much.
Trust your instincts, do not prod the angry bear. Calm, silent, NC and grey rock. Look at BIFF responses on admin issues.
Do NC like a boss can be Googled and will also present you with sound advice on how to master NC. I can tell you V is a NC master.
Perhaps you could read the abuse threads and read Morbo current threads too. It might help to see another poster go through the same process.
You are smart and have hit the ground running. So proud of you, not my place to be but I am.
V
Joe
Apologies. I have had a long drive family party etc so have had little time.
So locally it should be late afternoon for you. Bedtime here!
Just so you know it gets better; I am with the kids in a hotel and they are in bed - I have them every other weekend (Fri-Sun), every Weds and I take them to school every day. We are having a happy weekend with my family and we are all totally happy when we are together and apart. So will you be too so relax. Incidentally I am going to see if I can get more custody as part of the D as kids want this too. So eat assured, if your sitch ends in D you can and will all be happy. If you must be superdad and superjoe.
Now back to the maths. You are in the eye of the storm. You are right and so is V. V is right that this could go nasty. But if you act to prevent interaction I am hoping this is very much less likely. I can’t be sure of course so you need to use your knowledge of WW to judge your safety and follow V’s guidance here. I will explain the level of abuse I suffered below (you are being abused and have been for years I expect). Vs abuse was at a very high level and G is still stalking. In my experience the following could happen (I am telling you what happened to me here rather than predicting your future - your sitch could be worse or better of course). I would echo what V says about taking this seriously but being aware men tend to not call this stuff in or perhaps might not be taken seriously. I just took it (for years and years) and I am fine, apart from the odd twitch and my nervous squint. Sorry just trying to lighten the mood!!
So this is what may happen (did happen to me):
- She will plan her ideal future. Guess what, you are not in it. Your wallet and resources (house etc) are however. She may be in cohorts with OM in planning this and he may have his eyes on your WW, your house etc. He may even want be sufficiently devious to move her out further down the line and keep it all. All possible but certainly she has a planned future. It’s a fantasy however and you can stop it by staying put. As V’s experience, and mine, they ultimately go so stir crazy that they leave. But you don’t.
- She will use every aspect of projection, manipulation, gaslighting, abuse she can to break you. You will not be broken however as you are going to look at her with eyes of pity and use boundaries to prevent any form of argument. If she won’t accept the boundary, you leave the room.
- This is important. Try and establish when she is scheduling her rages. It might be before work, at her lunch time or just after you have have put the kids to bed. These points of the day, in my experience, are most likely flash points. Once you establish it you can almost set your clock by her pattern. And she will get one - she may have already. Work out her schedule then work around it. My WW couldn’t sleep she was a mess with anxiety (so was I - holding down a large team of 16-20 (difficult) staff as an Equity Partner to be in one of the big 4 accountants too at the time). I digress, she was all over the age but her rage schedules were stable, morning prior to school run/during (messed up raging), lunch (calls to invite an argument/rage), after kids bed - BTW do the bedtime thing it helps to keep the kids stable and if they are scared they will talk to you and you can reassure them. After bedtime was worst - nuclear fuel, hair trigger messed up nut job mode. Like a crack head in an Edward Scissorhands outfit doused in petrol and about to smoke his 20th crack pipe of the day. Stay clear of this person most!!! So my routine was, morning - up at 6am, 20 min run, shower get kids ready, have sufficient time to literally jump in the car (all of us) I would jump out at school with the kids and have a hide and seek game 10 mins then walk 5 mins and (1st most important job of the day) get them to school smiling and
Laughing. At times she would just explode in the morning because of the frustration and anxiety - ignore that. Comfort the kids (Mummy was a bit upset there, she must be a bit stressed, never mind she’ll be okay later after a coffee) and move on. Lunchtime, do not answer the lunchtime call. Send it to VM. Set up a standard response text (you can do this on an i phone) “sorry, busy, can you text?”. The point here is stay light hearted where possible (it is very hard to argue with someone that won’t argue back and worse if they are being nice). If the message is important, call her, but wait until she is into a busy afternoon if possible. Preferably, leave a VM or let her text you as your request. Evening. Tricky time. Just stay out of the room, pop through to get a
Cup of coffee etc but do not engage. The point is don’t look like you are Ignoring her, so if she wants to catch you to talk she can. But if it’s nasty exit conversation and or Room. You can also say, ‘give me a minute, I’ll pop back, just got to ‘grab something’ (do pop back in the room but don’t say ‘about that bull sh!t argument’). The point is, be around if you wish, but avoid, agoid if she is in rage or argument more. I guess you want to be around so she can talk if she can properly. If she can’t exit. Also, max 1 glass of wine etc as you won’t be able to do this with too much booze on board. Trust me I have tried!!! Beware any conversation that starts with her in woe is me mode. She is playing the victim, most likely, you will automatically go into rescuer and she will turn persecutor. See the drama triangle. She probably is adept at this. Watch for this behaviour. You need to become good at spotting it.
- in terms of the triangular behaviour. Let you and him have a fight best explains this. My WW wound start and arguement when kids were in bed. Over nothing (they are good at that) then I would stupidly engage. Why are you saying this? You are acting like a moron (not the nicest language I admit) but she would then phone her mum (who would be a bottle of wine into her night) and say mum he just said I’m a moron he’s horrible. She would then pass the phone to me. This is the triangle/let’s you and him have a fight when it’s rigged. If this happens just say sorry this is entirely inappropriate And put the phone down on the counter.
- She will project lots of ‘you never, you always’ abuse statements. Ignore these. They are lies. They are designed to crush you.
- the flirting in front of you with OM is to hurt. Don’t let it. She has gone, a WW replaced her and you don’t want this alien - he can have her. He’s bound to have the morals of a slug in any event. Can you imaging being comfortable on the other end of the phone as that guy? You wouldn’t. That’s because you have morals.
- ultimately she will leave the house is my view. She will of course take the kids and will then need to arrange custody formally - but she will ‘grant’ you some form. Contest the amount you get. She will need sufficient funds to do this so it might be sensible to make sure she has! That’s only fair also - so if she raises needing to leave say fine. I’ll make the rent available.
- she will start to block you seeing her family, your mutual friends etc. She will set up separate accounts, hide everything and separate everything. Here she is separating you so she can throw you under the bus in front of them (by reinventing history) and you won know and can’t defend yourself. Separated things is about her creating her new separate life.
I have a lot of experience in this post but in short She is now in total b!tch mode. My W even pinched herself and said I did it - look at that mark she said. I saw her do it and called her out. She did this many times. It’s like a mental disorder. Odd it expect the unexpected. Her last attempt at physicality saw her push me through an unlocked glazed patio door which opened and I fell and banged my head - hard on the concrete floor. She said I tripped the next day, thinking I wouldn’t remember as I had come home late from work after a late client drinks event in London. I did remember but knew she had shifted up a gear. It was time
To do the same. Being gaslighted after the event is also nasty stuff. You start to believe it. Did I trip? Or was I pushed?
Joe, all of this is background. To help I hope. There are so many other stories. I would write a book.
Think back. She was no doubt like this from 6 months in to your R or so. Sweet to everyone but keeping special arguments for you. The odd rage, over silly things. When you will not agree or toe the line. She was probably hiding this behaviour. It is mostly likely learned - nature nurture stuff. Over validated kind of kid or one that craves attention. She might event have a mental issue or even something physical (hpa axis dysfunction etc). Most likely is her upbringing. Does she ha e similar relatives, always right, aggressive sister, mum, cousins? Is her dad subservient etc. Look at that and when she first displayed a head for a
Fight and you will see patterns. When was the first big fight and what was it over? Something trivial? Mine was in 1998 over a set of curtains to
My house - I didn’t want I spend £350. She aged then left for home 2 days early (a 5 hour journey). My point is, I ignored the signs. Hen got blind to he abuse.
Open your eyes my friend.
Having read the above. Keep it simple:
- avoid her and all confrontation info check for and strategise her flash points
- look after you (exercise)
- be superdad, lots of cuddles, tickles and reassurance. Even just big there at bedtime, reading a story is reassuring. The scariest time is bedtime for kids so talk to them.
I will keep checking on you. You will be fine I am sure. If I can do it so can you.
Keep posting. Sorry for typos. Using my phone. Too tired to proof - I need my
Bed.
Surfer.
OK a lot of reading here. You are all amazing. I can't stress that enough.
V:
I am not sure how an OOP goes with the statement that I shouldn't burn a bridge. I understand what you're saying, don't get me wrong. I just don't know where to fall in between the lines on that one. Thanks for the awesome positive reinforcement. I am trying my best, and I'm not nearly as perfect in my execution as I should be. I am just doing the best I can with what I've got.
Surfer:
That is a huge help to me. Especially the playbook for gaslighting, projecting, and abuse scripts. It really is like they have a WS script. I have noticed an after bedtime schedule. That's the danger zone, once the kids are in bed. You are right, I did have a lot of red flags I ignored. Makes me feel like an idiot at times, but we were happy back then. This makes me so sad. She is leaving so much behind.
And blaming it all on me.
She is not here tonight, and it is peaceful and calm. That's when the PTSD kicks in. Lol
Thank you all again this thread has been a lifesaver.
Joe
Remember you are human. You won’t get it 100% right. Just don’t give up and stay vigilant.
The bedtime danger zone is most important form now. The kids need your support then. Help get them to bed be there to reassure and the sit with them till they are asleep. I would not hang around for more than 30 mins then up to bed.
Be aware she will change her approach and find you to spew. Or change the danger zone not AM etc. Stay vigilant. Ultimately she will probably escalate her behaviour or she will give you the ultimatums IMO. I.E. you go or I do!!! You have a script for that too!
We all missed red flags too!!! There’s a reason for that (she hid them - in plain sight). You are no fool. You just hoped for the best because you loved her. You still will, but you need to put aside your feelings for now.
She will blame it on you. Think of it like someone leaving a job going to a new one. They always say the old company was rubbish. The new one will be great. They never say it was me I always a terrible worker etc or my abailty to be decent to colleagues does not exist etc. It’s becuase they are the problem, but they can’t see it and can blame themselves. Many have been unreasonable yet validated inappropriately for life. Perhaps daughters who are always told they are right even when being inappropriately harsh or nasty. Don’t worry about the blame. It’s just gas lighting and reinventing history. In short lies.
She is leaving so much, you are right. Get your head back into that phrase - she is going to make you the area’s most eligible bachelor. Become that and the best dad. Also, if she tries to make it back to you beware. V can help you more with this. I doubt my WW will try (hopefully).
Stay strong chap.
Surfer.
I'm trying to stay strong. I'm having a really bad time of it now. Its when I'm alone or otherwise safe that this happens to me. All my self doubt and insecurities pop up. I wasn't good enough. I didn't do enough. Didn't give her enough attention. I didn't do enough around the house. I didn't go church enough. I didn't work out like I should have. Blah blah blah. I know I played a part in this. And it just makes me so sad.
An OOP isn't burning a bridge it is a boundary enforcement. It is saying this behaviour has gone too far, next time more consequences.
The OOP itself isn't enforceable until you file it with the police. So you have an OOP then you can file it if you need to.
Let me just discuss PTSD. I have this big time, BIG TIME. I have had to learn to handle it.
Firstly it's complex PTSD, it derives from being in a war zone and over time. It doesn't arise from a single incident, car accident, attack etc. It is slow and steady trauma.
It becomes part of your physiology. Let me reassure you this is absolutely normal and natural. If this weren't so then you would be repressing and this is much much worse.....
Relax it's uncomfortable but won't kill you.
Firstly there is accepting this is what you have. Important as I said for even dealing with it.
Secondly know it can reduce, you can live with it and eventually change the pattern in it
Thirdly education finding out about it
Fourthly monitoring, know your triggers and identify times places and feelings that cause this
Finally treatment, and there will be treatment for it, some of it may arise from earlier in your life from FOO (family of origin issues). Different treatmentS work for different peeps at different times on different issues. No one size fits all, and just because one therapy works on one issue doesn't mean it works on all.
Be with it, walk into it, experience it, face it. There is an aspect to complex PTSD which is very hard to understand. It's called post traumatic growth, this experience has grown me as a person more than anything ever has. Much much more. I would rather not have had it but it has grown me and developed me into a better and more rounded person. It has educated me. I can already tell that you are on that road yourself, as a father you will excel, as a potential partner you will be amazing. Becoming the man only a fool will leave. I already see this in your future. It is not so far away you may not be aware, but it's not.
Let me also explain shift to you, shift happens in an instant, it's permanent. It is when you know and can never unknow. It converts to wisdom as this permanently changes your brain chemistry and structure. Change can be undone, change doesn't always last. Change requires external validation, this shift is internal and it's permanent.
I love seeing shift on the board, it is wonderful when true growth realisation and development occurs, such as with you.
You will be both excited energised and tired. You will need sleep and extra nutritious food. Perhaps a weekend away with your children walking in nature. Time alone is valuable too. Work is torture sometimes at others you breeze through.
Be kind to your body as it heals. It has served you well.
Breathe.
Recovery has begun.
V
Oh yes self blame is part of the responsibility to yourself.
Each of us is 100% responsible for the R. And so is WW and WH.
The past is gone, it can not be changed, but we can learn from it. We can learn about love languages, communication.
We can also learn and know we are good enough in fact better than that. Someone who can't acknowledge their issues can't change them, that's huge, huge.
In all of this we often forget that we are human.
I recollect a long convo with a poster who said he wasn't loveable. After threads of building he eventually wrote himself a love letter. Telling himself why he loved himself.
I recommend this exercise, it's small and simple but you may resist. Persist with it as it is worth it.
Every morning as you shave look deep into your own eyes and say 'I love you'. That simple exercise will really help. If you can't go that far initially try 'I admire the way you.......'
Love your children, have grown, are becoming a man only a fool would leave, are dealing with your sitch.....
You can not ask more than that of yourself. You are enough, you are a great dad, a developing human who is temporarily struggling.
I Internet promise it will pass. Enjoy the now, enjoy the moments of peace. Everyone makes mistakes, if you aren't making mistakes you aren't growing.
It's going to be ok. Breathe.
V
I feel so awful. I feel like I could have prevented all of this from happening if I had only listened to my wife. She told me what I wasn't doing enough of. She told me. I didn't listen. I was too busy doing other things or worse, nothing. I miss her so so much. She was my best friend. We were always there for each other. And now she's gone. I wasn't man enough to keep her. I loved her so so so damn much. I thought she loved me too. I thought we had it all.
I never stopped working to make a better life for my family. I went back to school to get a better job. I graduated and got that job! Yes, my workouts stopped. I didn't have time like I once did. Maybe I gained some weight. But my paychecks were way bigger. I was going to work at my body again, I just couldn't at the time. Did I get too ugly? Too fat? I did start working on it again, but at the end of our M. I'm down 30+ pounds now. But it doesn't even matter.
I couldn't be the man she wanted and she left me for a loser.
I wasn't good enough. I can't stop crying right now. I don't know what's wrong with me. I can't believe I failed everyone in my life. I just didn't put in the work that she asked me to do. I let myself slide and paid the price.
I feel like this is all my fault. I know everyone (even me) says it's hers. But I know it's not. And now it's too late.
I think I changed her into WW and that hurts me so much. I miss my wife more than I knew I could miss anyone. I feel alone no matter who I am around or how many people are with me.
I feel so remarkably guilty for all of this. I never wanted this to be this way. My heart feels so empty all of the time. Even my kid doesn't bring me joy like he should.
NC and DB is so so so hard for me. It's 100% opposite of my true personality. I'm compassionate, I'm loving, I'm a great communicator. I'm loyal and respectful. It's so hard being the opposite of my nature to the woman I love every day. It's taking such a toll on me, but I know it's my only chance at recovery OR recon (as if that fantasy would EVER happen at this point).
What a lousy pity party I'm having right now. I just don't have ANYONE to talk to about this. Nobody understands what I am going through. I hardly even have any friends left from pre marriage, and all my post marriage friends are hands off now due to the D.
What did I do to screw my life up this bad? Why does God have this in His plan for my family?
I wish I could go back and fix all the problems I introduced. I wish I could have been a better man for my wife and my family.
I am just ranting now. Thank you for all of you kind words Surfer and Vanilla. I feel like the only people that understand me are here on this board.
I'm trying so hard to be strong. I am running out of strength. I haven't felt this bad since the first week after BD. I feel so broken and lost.
OK have a pity party. It's ok, we all do it!
In fact it's something you have to have, don't resist it.
Can I recommend you write it DOWN? Create a journal, put it all out in writing.
Every single crime you think you have done or believe you did
How exactly did you make your W go wayward?
How exactly did you turn your W into an abuser?
What magic powers do you have that did that?
-------------------------------
This is a phase in the Kubler Ross grief cycle, enjoy it! I am not joking as it's an important phase of recovery.
Walk into it it's bang on cue.
V
How did I make her wayward? Huh.
I didn't give her enough attention, even though I complimented her often. I should have given her more praise on SM.
I was too nice to her at times. I wasn't really a Mr. Nice Guy, but I was too accommodating. I would take charge of situations and she'd balk because of her control issues, and I would relent too often.
My attractiveness suffered. I went from tough guy to desk jockey. Traded a military uniform for a dress shirt and slacks. I gained 30+ pounds. I didn't eat healthy as much anymore.
I was not active enough with her social circles. I should have suggested more planned events, concerts, dates, nights on the town. I should have kept courting her.
I just got so wrapped up in my new job and she was busy with work too. We couldn't connect as much as we did before. I should have made time. I should have MADE more time!!!! Now it's all gone and she's a different person. Oh it hurts so bad!
Joe
Imagine in decide I want to turn you into anything gross. A man that robs banks, a man that abuses the vulnerable a man that swindles the poor, elderly etc. A murderer - anything. Anything you are not.
That would take a very clever and manipulative plan on my part and you buying into that. What was your plan? When did you first decide to destroy your marriage or to turn your W into a wayward, someone that withheld love, affection and gave it to another. When did you plan to be abused?
Sometimes actions are chosen by others. You do not make anyone perform such actions. They choose them. So in short, you did not cause this. Her behaviour is hers.
Okay, the putting on weight thing. So? Would you have left her if she put a few pounds in but was working hard?
Pity party city. We all do it. You are grieving for loss and ‘feel’ to be to blame. YOU are not to blame for HER actions. Full stop.
Now the sadness is here know you will get through this. It is exactly the same as the death of a loved one. You are accepting what has happenend. Yes we all play a part in this, me, my W felt I did not listen and therefore didn’t care. The fact is I know it is true that she felt that or said she did. But I always listened I just got it the first time and look switched off as she told me the next 5 times. I know this was a ‘fault’ yet I also know that I am not patient and I am sufficiently smart to sort a solution within seconds of hearing the problem the first time. So I know I need to learn to not just listen but to hear until the person talking has exhausted their anxieties. My W was always talking about 1st world issues as if they were 3rd world issues. Something I struggle with. So as she became more and more like that, an emotional vampire, the less I wanted to listen. So in short, we were growing apart. This is all that has happenend to you but her abusive path is escalating and you need to recognise that she probably won’t change.
Grieve, feel sad. You must. Exercise was my solution. It may help you. Find what helps. Self help books etc are but know it is likely that you will never unravel what happenend much beyond what you already know. You will accept it thought and you will be happy.
I remember the times when I struggled to be happy around my kids. I am now happier and more confident around them and our relationship is 10 times better than it ever has been and i was always great. I was bedtime and bath time dad, tickles and fun. Now 10 x that.
Don’t let the kids see you sad. Find space to run, read or whatever. Seratonin is so good for you at these times. Also, go to counselling, hypnotherapy or mindfulness training. The latter you can do for free at any time.
I know it feels unbearable. It is horrid. But this will go, I promise. Keep doing what works.
You have got this better than I did. You may feel you are not coping. You are, you will.
Final point. Do you want to love someone that does not love you? No. Right now she is manipulating and gaslighting you in addition. It’s abuse. You must work on detaching.
You will get there.
Surfer
J...I was in your shoes 7 months ago. The pain is real, I cried my eyes out for weeks straight wondering how I got to this point and why was it happening to me. I cried on the board while I was typing, I cried to my mom every morning and evening as i drove to and from work. I cried to my IC and I couldn't talk about it to anyone without crying. It is perfectly normal.
You probably will never know why your W made the choices that she did but please understand that this is more about her than it is about you and your failures as a husband/father.
We all make mistakes, we all wish we could have done things different in our MR's as we reflect on what we could have done to prevent our spouse from leaving. However in the end it is still an individual choice, right or wrong your W made a choice to leave based on how she was feeling, based on how she viewed/percieved things through her lens. Other W's would not have left and would have stayed and have stayed through worse MR's than we had. Ours did not and it hurts.
My neighbor and his W are in their early 30's and have 3 kids ranging from 7-2. She is a teacher and he is a mgmt consultant. He has had 5 jobs in the last 7 years, at 1 period he went a year without working, earned an income through playing fantasy sports. He is never outside with his kids, does not mow his yard, does not wash his cars, does not do household repairs, does not pay the family bills, every time I am at their house he is laying on the couch with a blanket, doesn't court his W, he is active in his church though and does lead bible study. When I look at him and then compare it to Sandi's list of ways a W loses respect for her husband he might be the poster child
. I don't know what goes on in-side their house but from an outsiders view they appear to be happy.
My point is that he is probably a far worse husband than you or I however his W stayed/is staying and ours chose to leave. It still boils down to individual choices, individual people, their emotions, how people are wired, etc. It was really probably out of your control.
Final thoughts on NC and DB. Things I learned whilst 12 stepping in Gamanon.
This is going to sound counter intuitive to you but these are the most loving caring things you can do.
No one can cause another to be or do anything, sure we can influence them. They have free will. Similarly we can't change them back to a stable soul.
We can provide an environment in which that can happen, DB and NC (amoung others) are such loving environments. We do these out of love for ourselves and our children, to set boundaries to show how we are to be treated. To encourage a loving environment for change.
So, fear not, these behaviours create the best environment for you and WW AND that is loving and compassionate.
V
She is back in the house now. She addressed me cordially and spoke to me calmly. Not normally like we used to, but an improvement from earlier this week.
She got all dolled up then headed to the gym where she met OM. This is a huge trigger for me now. I did Sandi's store clerk roleplay. I was calm and collected. She told me she was going to work out. I said "OK." She asked me how I was doing and I said "I'm doing great. I'm sure you're doing great too." She just looked down. I told her that I hope her workout goes well and then made myself breakfast. She left.
I'm so glad there was no conflict. I was dreading it, but we'll see what happens when she returns. She is going to be spending the night somewhere else again. Looks like another night of unbearably painful healing for me. I can't explain all these emotional ups and downs. It's torture.
Your pity party, and thinking it's your fault are totally normal, and something we've all gone through. So are your feelings of aloneness. I don't know if it helps you to know this. I'm not trying to minimize you pain by saying we've all been thru it, but to show you you're not alone.
Surfer:
I've done a good job detaching. I was at the top of my game earlier this week. I don't know why the emotions are gripping me so tightly.
Last night, sleeping in my own bed alone in an empty house? That killed me. I mean my son was here but... Wow. All of my memories have started to flood back into my mind. All of the great things about my old life that I loved so dearly.
Gone. Forever.
Joe,
Totally normal these horrible feelings of loss, abandonment and grief. You will blame yourself.
You have been detached at times. I have read that. But full detachment is that. I am really very detached now but even now I still get the odd wobble. It’s rare though. It was 18 months since she left.
I definiately would not have her back. 100%. At my stage it feels like the kind of loss you have for an ex girlfriend. But I rarely feel like that now - it’s just a bit sad if you know what I mean. But hen I am also happy with it. Perhaps in the not too distant future you might reflect on this and think. Wow, I am there too.
The bit you are going through is horrid. I can’t deny it and I feel for you matey. But the good memories are not gone. Your R is on hold. If she changes all good, but she may not. She looked down? Down sad or at the floor? One is sadness and one is shame. If she is asking after you she may still care but she might also be temp testing.
Don’t presume any outcome right now. Just look like the strong confident guy you have been. This hurt, struggling phase is temporary.
You need to convey a strong and happy front for you and the kids - if she sees that and responds you might consider it too late, but that’s you in the driving seat. Think more “OK, you seem to be intent on creating havoc in your life, not a life I want to opt for, for me and the kids thanks. By the way I am going to be the most eligible guy in town.”
There is often and balance of power shift in R’s in such situations. For example, I was always the one who was perhaps more attractive and eligible (sorry this sounds big headed but I can see it, however this was never a problem) yet when she became WW I became weak and perhaps even scared of her (stupid but I did). I kind of stopped the whole ‘you can pack this nonsense in approach” to her spews and was more “hurt by her spews and contright and apologetic” over the gaslighted faults she projected. In short she gaslighted me in to being weak comparatively and I no doubt was less attractive to her. Do I feel bad for this? Do I bo!!ocks, I had someone I loved. I didn’t see the red flags that she was and is a massive manipulator and abuser of my trust, our love and me. Do I hate her - absolutely not. Do I want her - absolutely not. I just think she is an idiot for throwing it all away. But it’s is her choice and I can’t force her so I accept she is a WW and will smile as she disappears in my rear view mirror.
There are two islands now. She has left your island, it is a ramshackle mess to her - but you definitely can cry and wait for her to come back or you can assert yourself and build a raft like an assertive man. Row out to another island that you are in charge of and built an amazing place for you and the kids. Once where dreams hope’s, memories and love will thrive. She will look on with intrigue at your new island and may ever want to visit. Up to you if you let her. She most likely will not want island 1 or you on it - so make island 2. Take control of the island. Eventually, she might have to drift back to island 1, she will find it much more baron than it was, as you will have left and be on the island 2.
Final point, divorce dates are high. There are very few good men out there. Particularly solvent ones that can scrub up well and have manners. You won’t be interested in this now, I appreciate, however, trust me, when you get our mojo back you will not feel lonely for long if you are at all. Granted it takes a few months after S before you get any such feelings. But just wanted to be clear!
Also, give yourself time. I have read that it takes on average 1 month for every year together to detach fully. I agree with that. 18 months in I am getting very close. We were together for circa 20 years.
Get yourself out scrubbed up well and just catch up with a friend or go out. Even if you go for a beer with a work colleague or cinema alone. It will do you good. It will also make her think. Are you getting out?
Keep on track chap.
Surfer.
Joe,
You have been pushed off course due to your emotions. It’s attachment. Just get back in the saddle.
Surfer.