The goal of this post is to avoid misinterpreting their WAS's mixed messages resulting in actions that hurt ourselves, our WAS's, and our chances for the M.
If you're an LBS it's important that you don't assign too much meaning to signs of warmth or indecision from your WAS. One of the easiest mistakes to make is to assume other people feel and think similar to how we do. In our LBS minds it's easy to project how we feel or how we desperately want our WAS's to feel onto them. Maybe this is part of denial, we simply can't imagine things not working out so we are just waiting for the sign that shows us this is the part of the movie where everyone falls back into each others arms.
Hey, we're human, we're going to feel desperate at times and get our hopes up at times. That's fine. We just can't let it derail the road we need to walk.
WAS's are much farther gone that we think. On these forums we say the marriage is dead at BD. That maybe if you do your work and they do theirs a day might come when the two people you become reengage, but this relationship is dead.
This isn't about giving up hope. I'm 100% in favor of standing for a marriage. It's about not allowing ourselves to be strung along and fed crumbs so we end up enabling an impermissible situation.
I remember when, 90 days after BD, my XW started sending me emails that demonstrated some regret. I'd been warned and was trying very hard to be deliberate and cautious. Very hard. I waited hours before I'd respond. I'd check with the boards. I was TRYING to reign my emotions in. But when she used phrases like "She hated divorce" and "She liked the person I was becoming" and "She missed talking to me" and asking if I was seeing anyone or if I still thought about us together, I was SURE this was a big break through! She finally was seeing what I saw, that we can work this out!!!
She called me late in the night and said she was drinking a little and she missed me and our marriage and was so lonely she didn't think she could make it through. I, the white knight I was, drove over to see her because she sounded like she was in a dark place.
You all buckled up? When I got there, she freaked out because OM was sleeping upstairs in the marital bed passed out. She was depressed because he had just told her he wanted to break up with her. I'll spare you what was by FAR the worst part (for those who like pain you can dig up my old thread) but I had a chance the next day to open up her phone and I was blown away with what I saw. She had been with many different guys, and she had a different persona via text message exchange with each of them including new OMs she was lining up. She also had one with her friend talking about how "Great, now I have to push Zues away again because of yesterday..."
This isn't my thread, but I hope this example is better than a general warning. Conflicting feelings and some sadness does NOT equate to remorse and commitment to the marriage.
So, how is it that they can express genuine regret, pain, loneliness, and warmth without meaning 'let's get the band back together?'
Simple. Those feelings are genuine, they just aren't commitment.
Pretend your WAS started using heroine habitually. Or started gambling away all of their money every paycheck. Do you think that they'd feel regret at times? Do you think they'd feel the pain of the consequences of their choices at times? Do you think that they'd miss their old life at times? Of course they would, but that's totally irrelevant. We know they do. The ONLY thing that matters is whether they have felt enough of those things to hit the rock bottom to where they'll actually commit 100% to changing their lives for the better. Even then it's lip service and only time will tell if their actions match their words.
So why do they do this to us? Simple. To avoid consequences.
Some is avoiding physical consequences. Maybe they want to control the speed of the breakup, like when you wade into cold water little by little. They aren't ready to be splashed yet, they're still working up to it- but they are going to do it on their time, in their way. They don't want you charging around now they have to deal with consequences like being cut off financially, or having family or mutual friends hear about their behavior, and it sure is easier to get you to agree to give them whatever they want whenever they want it when you are blinded by hope.
Some consequences they wish to avoid are emotional. So long as they string you along they aren't sacrificing their marriage for their love affair because they know they can get you back at any time, so they are just indulging themselves because they deserve to feel better. No, they don't want you back, but by knowing you are still there they don't have to deal with the sense of loss the same way they would if you moved on.
So how can they say they say they want to repair the marriage one day and then not follow through the next, you KNOW they were being genuine at the time. Hey, I'm not saying those emotions aren't real, just that they aren't the same as ongoing consistent behavior. There is something I call "Medicating with positive intent". Think of it this way. Say a friend is in an abusive relationship. Their partner just slapped them around. They call you crying and saying they can't take anymore. So what do they do? They talk to you for hours, making plans about where they will go, what they will do, and on and on. Guess what? Now they are feeling better. Empowered. Hopeful. They feel alright again...hmm...now they feel alright again, and guess what? Things aren't that bad. They do love so and so. They can get through it after all. I don't know about you but I've seen too many examples of people that truly convince themselves they are going to make a positive change because the good feelings that follow their well intended proclamation are all they really needed, no reason now to bother with all of that following through hard work stuff. It'll be ok. Right?
So what's an LBS to do?
Well, the first step is to read this like ten times and really understand it. Because while our feelings will be all over the map, we have a responsibility. If we truly love our WAS's we need to allow them to experience the consequences of their choices. This is the best chance to save the M. And if that isn't possible, consider it the last gift you give to someone you pledged your life to, ending on a positive note after all of the hurt. That gift means that when they are engaging in unhealthy choices that are destroying their lives we don't make it easy for them to keep doing it.
I'm not here to script out verbal responses to temp checks and displays of emotion, but the underlying message you need to communicate are things like this:
-Your not the shoulder to cry on anymore
-Getting back together isn't that simple anymore
-You are firm in your boundaries and won't accept [open marriage, loveless marriage, sexless marriage, uncommitted partner, disrespect, etc]
-You've told her everything you have to tell her and have nothing left to say (no R talks, never ever ever ever).
From our LBS view it seems like we're destroying our only hope. But WAS wants to have the R talk!!! If I blow them off then they'll blame me for being the one that ended it.
Hogwash. If WAS is seriously remorseful and ready to do anything and everything to work on the marriage they will let you know. They won't play games. The 'well then, that's why we can't work' card is manipulative and proof there is no lasting remorse. Any R talk that doesn't start with them going first with a list of apologies and re-commitments is just proving to her that you are willing to compromise your boundaries and remain emotionally involved with a wayward spouse. I repeat, this is hurting yourself, your WAS, and your chances of preserving your family.
In conclusion, if you are seeing signs that your spouse wants to return, post all about it here. Get it out of your system. Overreact on these forums. Tell us how it's going to work out after all, that we were wrong, that YOU KNEW your WAS, you KNEW they would fall back into your arms, that you think you are in piecing, etc, etc, etc. But please, for all that is good and holy, stay detached from them outwardly and give them time to see if they actually recommit, show true remorse, and prove it to you with consistent behavior over time. Keeping DBing and may you make it to the other side, whatever lies ahead.
This is awesome.
I can remember at least 10 moments last year when I thought my W was coming back or at least going to try again. Every single time though she pulled away and it was so cruel. How they do what they do to their once beloved spouse is beyond me, its heartless and malicious.
I was in a similar pattern up to a few weeks ago when I realized she was playing me and had an ongoing affair.
My wife throwing me lil breadcrumbs and me following her around hoping that she would change her mind. I never had the OM in the marital bed though....wheeeww, I would have f**kin lost it!!
Great post Zues. I definitely agree with the points you are making. I am and have personally been in an fortunate situation that my WAS hasn't shown and isn't going to show any kind of crumbs. She made it clear and stood behind her words. I can't even begin to think how much hurt crumbs can cause, even after a full detachment. Sparking up the feelings and then having a short-lived false reconciliation might hurt more than the BD.
Thank you for posting this Zues,
I'm sorry you had to go through that...that was some tough stuff to deal with.
My H's idea of keeping me hooked is ever so more subtle. He doesn't do remorse or apologies. When I reached out to ask if he'd like to meet just before Christmas to talk he replied yes with a kiss. The day we were to meet he had dwindled it down to dropping gifts off at the house...he said he had no intention of meeting outside the house and didn't want to be alone with me. I've known this man 30 years and he refused to be alone with me. It was cruel, spiteful and I was crushed.
Since then I've received two texts with way more warmth than usual...which isn't saying much...literally, Merry Christmas and have a good week lol.
So thank you for reinforcing something that I need permanently stamped to my forehead.
I think that I will add that the most confusion comes at the beginning and the end of the crisis, so if the time has been short you are likely at the beginning of the crisis and what you describe is part of the script.
By the time you get to the end of the crisis you likely will feel much differently.
Good post!
Zues,
Awesome post. I hope Cadet is considering making it a sticky one. All newbies should read this over and over again.
Zues,
Awesome post. I hope Cadet is considering making it a sticky one. All newbies should read this over and over again.
I just added it to my list in the resources - keep adding good nuggets to make it even better.
Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224
Great post, i love it! My W has not brought our R up in over 6 months so I don't have anything to worry about
. I also agree Cadet I feel much different 7 months in than I did in month #2.
amen.. been there... done that! I think the time aspect is really important. Things are not going to happen over night, it is not magic.
forewarned is forearmed. thanks for the awesome post!
I just added it to my list in the resources - keep adding good nuggets to make it even better.
I haven't seen this happen since I've been here, so congrats and thanks Zues for making every DBers life just a little bit better.
Yes Yes!!! Thanks Zeus for this post. This is incredible. From my own personal perspective where WAW was throwing crumbs at me and I had no idea what was going on, it created so much confusion and heartache for me. I wish I understood this much better back then, but I do now.
I also upvote this to be either a sticky or part of the LBS resources.
I just want to add one thing with is keeping with the spirit of this post, but it is slightly tangential. It is probably one of the best pieces of insight that I got here and every LBS should know this. The credit for this goes to AnotherStander who laid it out in plain terms when I was in the throes of my confusion. His insight really opened my eyes and I am putting it here in my words (I will try and go back later and find what AS exactly said)
Quick caveat: I know some people on the board don't like using the word 'fog' as it stands. They think it's too reductive and maybe negative to portray the WAS in that light. I am using the term 'fog' here to describe the mindset and attitude rather than saying that it is negative or not. For me it represents confusion and mental jedi mind-tricks to rationalize the situation - for both the LBS and the WAS.
The 'FOG'
Both the LBS and the WAS spend some time living in the 'fog'. The interesting thing is that this 'fog' is diametrically opposed for the LBS and the WAS.
The LBS 'fog' is all about looking at the MR and their spouse with rose-colored glasses and thinking that the MR breakdown was all their fault. If they can just reverse some of their faults quickly, or do more around the house, or spend more time with kids, or pay more attention to their spouse, the WAS will change their mind or come back. In this 'fog', the LBS can't see clearly that they were not the only one responsible for the MR breakdown, and that they were also unhappy with some things in the MR. But, in the LBS 'fog' all of this is obscured and the LBS tries to grab on to any crumbs or shreds of life from the WAS to restore the MR. Once this fog slowly starts to clear and the LBS can see that they are worthy of love, respect, and can see the MR in a more objective light. They also realize that they were unhappy and that their needs weren't being met either. As soon as this 'fog' clears, the LBS is able to take charge of their life, have more control, and realize that they will not go back into the old MR again.
On the opposing side:
The WAS 'fog' is projecting most of the blame on the LBS and rewriting MR history. During this time they can hold anger, resentment, rage etc towards the LBS. The mindset hinders their ability to take responsibility for their contributions to the breakdown of the MR and that their unhappiness is not the sole result of the actions of the LBS. Once their 'fog' starts clearing, they can see more objectively about the MR and realize their contributions to its breakdown. Whether they want to do something about that is a different story, but until this 'fog' clears, they are really hindered in seeing what they brought to the table as well. Sandi has written extensively about the WW mindset, which every LBS should read as well.
A more simpler way to describe the difference in the 'fog' is that the LBS 'internalizes' the faults and the WAS 'externalizes' the faults. I know this may sound overly simplistic and it isn't always fully true, but it is a start to at least unpacking the feelings and thoughts that accompany the 'fog' mindset.
I apologize if I have misrepresented the concept as someone else understands it. I am just sharing what I thought was very useful insight for me about the 'fog' mindset as this is all consuming in the early stages after BD.
Zues,
I think this is the best post on these boards in the 10 years I have been on here.
Zeus +++
Your not the ruler of the Olympian Gods, but rather the LBS's.
I will take your advice and continue to read this thread over and over until I completely understand it; so I can get out of my own way while DB'ing. Each sentence I read, I can think of an exact moment which happened during the past few months within my sitch.
You know, of course, that I
love Zues' post, b/c it is not sugar coated, and brings to light a very important lesson. This is a perfect example of how the LBH has to keep detached, or he will be suckered into every little emotional down time his W experiences.
You LBH's understand what it's like to miss the life you had, before she pulled the rug out from under you. Well, she misses parts of it, too. She misses the comfortable parts, like missing a pair of her favorite house shoes. She misses the family togetherness, the family outings, family traditions, etc. She may miss the friendship or support she felt with you. However, my point is that everything is about her. Everything has a selfish angle, whether
you can see it or not. It's the nature of the beast, so to speak. It's all about
her feelings.....and hers only. It does not mean she is offering a olive branch, as so many LBH's want to think. It does not mean she's having second thoughts about ending the M.
She may turn to you when she has the blues or feels disappointed/worried, b/c that's what she used to do when you were together. She knows you'll soothe her feelings. So, she uses your shoulder to cry on, to get sympathy. It's all about her feelings.......not yours, not the kids or anyone else.
WAS's are much farther gone that we think.
Very true, and it's going to take more of the
right kind of work and a lot more time before she'll be in the right place (mentally & emotionally) to return to a committed MR. For some, by the time the bomb drops, several years have built to that point.....and she's
announcing that it's over. Some LBH's misinterpret the BD to mean she wants him to change and work on the MR. That is not what she's saying. She is saying it is over and she is done!
The board focuses a lot on the LBS making changes. I think a lot of newcomers have the idea that these
changes are the "work" that gets the other spouse back into the relationship. Well, if it had been caught way before the BD, maybe that would have been the ticket. However, by the time people find their way to the board, it has gone way past that mark. I'm not saying it's a waste of time to work on self improvements. It's never too late to improve yourself. In most of the cases I've read about, the type of changes the LBH needed to make was in the dynamics of the relationship.
Here's the thing, the LBH has a work to do.....and his W has a work to do. Their work is not parallel nor on the same time clock. His work and her work will look somewhat different and her work will appear to come later than his. Much of her work will be internal, but the results should definitely show overtly. She will not feel the need to change until she is convinced she has been very, very wrong. This condition usually doesn't come until she has suffered the loss of something very valuable to her, or an accumulated loss.
The LBH should not fear his W experiencing consequences. It's the only thing that will bring her out of the fantasy she's created. Reality can be a real b'tch, and she needs a lot of it.....and the quicker, the better.
In conclusion, if you are seeing signs that your spouse wants to return, post all about it here. Get it out of your system. Overreact on these forums. Tell us how it's going to work out after all, that we were wrong, that YOU KNEW your WAS, you KNEW they would fall back into your arms, that you think you are in piecing, etc, etc, etc. But please, for all that is good and holy, stay detached from them outwardly and give them time to see if they actually recommit, show true remorse, and prove it to you with consistent behavior over time.
I agree. Plus, I've never seen a successful reconciliation where they just fell into each other's arms. As previously stated by Zues, it's just not that simple. Only in the movies, does that work. In real life, there has to be a lot more, as Zues has pointed out. I don't recommend that any LBH take back his W if she is not remorseful and committed. If
she's laying down the terms of their reconciliation......don't do it. She is in no position (unless the LBH was the offender....and that's another subject).
Feeling remorse and actually committing are two separate things. Some women feel regret after they have D and M someone new. Some women feel regret, but it doesn't automatically cause them to want back into a committed MR with the LBH. I think a lot of LBH's try to put words into the W's mouth. They shouldn't. He can ask her questions, if she doesn't say what he needs to hear......like if she's fully committed to do whatever it takes to save the MR. And, let me tell you......there's some women who just don't feel that ready! They want to tell the LBH what he needs to do. All of that can be talked out, once she makes known if she's willing to do what he needs to feel safe in the MR again.
I plead with all the LBH's to not get in a hurry to take back your W. Take time to see if she's changed. Arrange therapy sessions for whatever issues were in the MR. Usually, there is much healing required. During this time, slowly start seeing each other (dating) in fun settings, having shared time with the kids, etc. Don't worry about rushing in too quickly on the romantic stuff, but
do find out if she's willing to have an intimate MR. If she not, then you may want to really reconsider reconciling.
Of course, I'm wasting my breath on some of you, b/c you'll want to start living together as soon as she apologizes and jump into bed that night. I wish I could get you to take it much, much slower. It would save a lot of future heartache.
When reading the posts from Zues, Maika and Sandi, I know, I'm in the right place for right kind of help. For example in Finland you wouldn't get this kind of help. Everyone just tells you get over it, plenty of fish in the sea, you're never going to save it. Maybe I'm not able to save my marriage but here my thoughts are not crushed totally. So thank you for being here and giving us hope on saving your marriages.
And in Finland if I was to talk about terms like WW or WAW...I would be laughed at.
Maybe I'm not able to save my marriage but here my thoughts are not crushed totally. So thank you for being here and giving us hope on saving your marriages.
When flying in an airplane that loses cabin air pressure the most important thing you can do is save yourself.
Put your own oxygen mask on first before you try to save anyone else.
The same applies here.
We first need to save ourselves, as your marriage will never survive if YOU are broken.
Learn about relationships, pursuit and distance, and how you can be the best person you can possibly be.
It took me a long time to understand all this but TIME - my favorite GIFT is on our side.
Use your TIME wisely.
Thank you Cadet. Being an impatient person this is the hardest part. But you people here know what you are talking about so I really don't have any option but to take all advice do the best with it. After all I think my journey has just begun.
Some longer-time posters will remember Starsky, a vet who always gave spot on and golden advice IMHO.
Something he posted a number of times (and I always remembered it) was this:
The number one mistake that many LBS's (who have a chance at reconciliation) make is letting the WAS back too soon and too easy.
What he said (and I agree) is that many situations need to have travelled pretty far before a potentially sustainable reconciliation is really possible .
The LBS needs to have taken their own journey and gained more insight into themselves as a person, parent, partner - and grown. They need to understand how their own behaviour may have contributed to a marriage that broke down. They also need to learn how to live a more boundaried existence, understanding what does and doesn't work for them and being brave enough to ask for what they want and need.
They need to have experienced life beyond the marriage and have worked through their own initial desperation to save the marriage, and their possibly codependent ways. They need to know that this may go either way and they will be fine whichever way it does go.
The WAS also takes their journey and they will experience a natural and karmic unfolding of events based on their earlier choices. If they had an affair with someone, they may get to experience what a relationship is like with someone who was willing to date a married man or woman and who might be immature or broken. They get to see how their family feels about their choices, including their children. They get to experience how life actually is compared to how they thought it would be. This takes the time it takes and this can lead to what people call 'rock bottom.' When someone looks around and realises what they have truly lost. Not just in terms of family, ties and friends, but self-respect too.
Only at this point (or similar) does a WAS start to maturely reflect on what has happened and look at their part, face damage they have caused. Not from a 'me' perspective, but from the perspective of others. And they may offer a truly sincere and regretful apology for their part and express a genuine desire to reconcile.
At this point the LBS has grown to a point that they are willing to move slowly and have a degree of self-control and a full 'other' life too. They don't jump in and they are not all in for a good while.
From all that I have seen posted, early reconciliations and quick ones really may not be good news and can lead to a looping scenario, where people find themselves back here sadly, a few years on. Much better to not waste the pain now and learn and grow from present, difficult circumstances. This we never regret - I truly believe that. If you learn and grow, this becomes a 'win' situation for you - however things may unfold.
Xx
THIS is a great thread with some great replies too.
I particularly liked Maika's, Sandi's and Sotto's insights.
Why didnt I find this forum sooner? bah
Thank you very much for the kind words and challenging discussion. I wanted to expand a bit on a better way of looking at 'limbo'.
I trained and managed sales people for a long time and I've identified what I think the most common mistake they make: They don't understand the cancer of maybe. From day one sales people think that a customer saying "yes" is good and "no" is bad, so they kind of assume that "maybe" must be not as good as a yes, but better than nothing, because hey, they didn't say no.
Nothing could be further from the truth. Sales isn't about getting everyone to buy a product or service; it's about managing a pipeline to ensure there are enough prospects in every stage of the sales process to ensure there is always business getting done. It is like a machinist operating an assembly line. It's ok if some parts are defective. What is the most critical thing is that the machine keeps moving and the wheels keep turning. Suppose a machine produced 500 parts an hour and 2% of them were defective, and their job was to scrap the 2%. Imagine if there was one that was hard to judge, it wasn't perfect but wasn't quite defective. Would it make any sense for them to shut the machine off for an hour to stare at that one part and ponder? Of course not! Just shrug, scrap it, and keep the thing moving! Maybes do the same thing in sales, they bog down the pipeline and turn these maybes into time thiefs and cost sales people the opportunity to start new conversations with new prospects that might need something.
Why don't sales people get this? Emotions. It's hard and scary to talk to new prospects and it's easier to have non-committal follow up conversations with people that you know.
Back to limbo (although if this helps any of your sales careers then that's icing on the cake). Limbo is a 'maybe'. You can't think of it as 'better than a no'. Whether they tell you they want a D (no) or whether they tell you they need some time for themselves (maybe), if the question is "Do I have a committed partner" the answer is NO equally the same!. This same principle holds true to any other boundary. Someone that feels bad about their affair and is planning on ending it is having an affair. Etc.
When your boundaries have been violated it is imperative that you detach completely and refuse to engage in R talks. Because no matter what words you speak, what you're saying is "I'm willing to compromise your boundaries". Look - if the FBI asked a terrorist to release a hostage and the terrorist told them that they had some regrets about the situation and were feeling kind of sad and would work on feeling like releasing the hostage, how do you think that would work out???
So what do you do instead? I'm not saying stone wall. Not at all. If they start an R talk you can certainly VALIDATE. You can demonstrate 180s through your ACTIONS (NOT your words). But you cannot, must not, pour emotional energy into a relationship that doesn't meet your minimum requirements. Continue to work on yourself for you, GAL to meet your emotional needs elsewhere so you don't feel as needy, and be a leader. I always say that you can't expect a WAS to let go of OP if you can't let go of them. Lead by example and show them what it means to take control of your own happiness and act with character.
Now, I'm not suggesting this is the answer to everything. There are certainly limbos where the boundaries aren't black and white. Like a spouse that isn't cheating, hasn't filed, has said they aren't sure what they want yet. This is a difficult situation and there is much more that could be discussed about it. Time means a lot here because if this has gone on for one day that is totally different than 10 years. Each person has to find what they feel is the right boundary. Do you stand for marriage for the rest of your life on character? Do you decide to move on after a year, or six months, and file yourself? Not easy decisions to make.
But in the end, let's be clear that identifying your boundaries based on your beliefs and personal values is the hard part. What to do if someone crosses those boundaries should be very clear and flawlessly executed. And reengaging with a person that has violated your boundaries should happen only in the face of remorse and recommitment. And then it should follow slowly based on consistent positive action. Anything else is telling the terrorists that you'll give them what they want because you trust that they'll get around to releasing the hostages...
As a recovering WW, I can say that this is spot on... when I see LBHs share what they think are positive movements from their WW spouses, I know better... I know it's not what they hope it is... Detach, detach, detach... GAL, GAL, GAL... let her specifically come to you asking for reconciliation, and expect her to do the work... No wiggle room...
Zues, thanks for this great post. (I also appreciated the sales advice about Maybes up there... perfect timing for the new year, thank you!!)
I’ve been really struggling a lot with my anger the last few weeks owing to an interaction with the ex that went really poorly. I’ve been reflecting on our marriage and wondering how it went so wrong. And what I’ve come up with is that his affairs were the result of tiny decisions he made over 16 years to not face the fact that he doesn’t know everything and that he thinks that the solutions that work for other people for growing up, learning, coping with setbacks, etc., don’t apply to him. He treated things like therapy and self-help books as crutches for the weak, not tools for ordinary people, including him. And that disdain for “soft” wisdom led him to maladaptive, self-destructive behaviors.
I’m not at all saying that there weren’t things I could have done better in our marriage. There definitely are places that I would love to go back and kick myself. Hard. But during our years together I faced some similar challenges to his, and adapted to them really differently. He even identified the differences in one of his long, word-salad letters telling me why he was blowing up our whole family life. But he couldn’t see the difference in the impact that had between him and me.
If I had behaved differently in those places where I wish I could get a do-over, it may have blown up the marriage sooner. Or maybe later, but we’d have had a very different life. But the marriage could not have lasted because he consistently made incremental choices even before the cheating that doomed it. Because he is the person he is, and because he sees change (and happiness) as something that happens from the outside, rather than from the inside, he does not have the capacity to sustain a deep, close relationship, with me or anybody else, over the long term. With some things that have happened with the kids and in his career, I see that he also doesn’t really understand the meaning and value of commitment. With qualities like those, our divorce was inevitable, even if he had had the honor to end it respectfully, before he started cheating. Cheating is the symptom of his inability to value commitment — because he’d rather maintain the comfortable status quo than treat his partner with openness and respect.
He told my daughter that he “doesn’t believe in marriage anymore,” which is weird to me. His parents have been married 46 years. Most of the people around him are married, with varying degrees of satisfaction. But somehow he “doesn’t believe in it.” I think there’s a piece of him that understands that HE can’t figure out how to make it work, but instead he’s externalized it to a thing that he can’t believe in, despite all the evidence around him that people make it work all the time.
Your post is so perfect in part because of the line “they’re further gone than we realize.” My marriage started deteriorating promptly after the wedding. I can point to events within the first six months that were gigantic red flags... but by that point, I was MARRIED, which for me meant, all in. The red flags I saw meant he wasn’t, but I don’t think he could have said so, or would have agreed that that was what they meant. I also REALLY appreciated the idea of “medicating with good intentions” (another idea that will tremendously help my sales career...) because that was a HUGE factor in our marriage as well. Maybe on both sides. I think he did the best he could with the tools he had (hence, our sixteen married years together), but at the end of the day, the tools he had weren’t enough and he couldn’t or wouldn’t see that. He was like a carpenter who showed up with a hammer and a screwdriver and nothing else, who couldn’t believe that finer tools, like a level or a measuring tape, could be useful. My toolsbox was fuller but he would never let me use them, and because of that I developed maladaptive behaviors as well.
For the newbies here, I’ve been divorced a couple of years now, and haven’t lived with my ex for almost four years. It’s taken me ALL this time to really internalize the truth of my marriage. Zues’s post is an important piece in my putting everything into perspective. I have struggled so hard with anger, grief, and blame (mostly of him — the cheating made that part inevitable). But it’s truly NOT ABOUT ME at all. I just happened to be there. These things are about him and they are patterns that he will repeat until he has the humility that he doesn’t know as much as he thinks he knows.
I’m in a new relationship now and I can see my flaws more clearly because I have a partner who is more open to learning and self-discovery, and less afraid of conflict between us. I am absolutely not perfect, and neither is he. But at least we have the tools to build a connection that can be practical as well as personal. I have the opportunity to continue growing within the relationship. I don’t know if the relationship will last (I hope it does, but I don’t know), but I appreciate so much that it has given me perspective on me, on my ex, and on my marriage. That marriage wasn’t a happy place for me either, but I found ways to operate within it that allowed for my happiness. My ex couldn’t see the difference between that and “making me happy.” Finally learning that is going to bring me some peace.
This is really long and I don’t mean for it to be a hijack. Your post, Zues, was one of the most perceptive things I’ve seen from you and I appreciate it. It has really helped me. I’m sorry for all the pain your ex inflicted on you and I hope you find peace yourself. For the newbies here, when you’re living in the heat of this moment in your marriage, it’s really, really hard to have this kind of perspective, It’s taken me four years of living apart from my ex to develop the detachment needed to see this painful chain of events with some perspective. Please adopt Zues’s words, because your instincts are to cling to the attachment, not to let it go. But letting it go is the only way to understand where you really are. Think of it as being stuck on an unmapped island and needing to go to the top of a mountain to see where you really are. If you’re situation is new, you might be on the beach, wondering where the fresh water is. You might be climbing the mountain wondering if you’ll be able to find fresh water at all (and that climb is so hard when you’re thirsty...) The view from the mountaintop (detachment) will help you understand your position and resources. It will help you plan your route, figure out where to find shelter, and everything.
Finally, Zues says, no relationship talks ever. He’s right. If your spouse had the ability or the information to make things right, there would have been no bomb drop. There would have been incremental opportunities over time to prevent the situation. That person who is blowing up your world does not have the information you’re looking for. You have to get to the mountaintop, detachment, and come to your own understanding of the situation.
Good luck.
Thank you Maybell for the reply. One theme that I've noticed behind your words is something I've come to realize from what we've gone through as well: We aren't in control of everything.
I'm embarrassed to remember how arrogant I used to be; I mean, like even more than today!
When I was young I saw other people's problems and somehow thought they wouldn't happen to me. I thought that I was different, special, the main character of the movie. That if I just did the right things, was clever and smart enough, played my cards right, and had a good deserving heart, things would just work out. I was the gingerbread man.
I've been humbled by all of this. I'm not more deserving or more special than anyone else. Suffering and loss won't avoid me in life just because I'm me. And most of all, I don't have everything figured out and under my control. Even if I did have it all figured out, somehow out of the billions of people on the planet I was the wise one, I could get hit by a drunk driver tomorrow and end up in the hospital. One of my children could take their own life and change mine forever. I could be falsely convicted of a sexual crime and end up in prison.
Bottom line, no matter how we play our cards we aren't in control. In our cases our partners made choices that ended our marriages and destroyed any possibility of a unified family or a lifelong partnership. No matter how special you are or how cleverly you DB'd, you couldn't prevent your XH from doing what we did. Neither could I.
Oh, it's appealing to cling to the idea that we can or could've done something differently. This idea is nice because we get to cling to the illusion that we are in control, that if we just figure out the right things to do or say we can save our M, get our WAS back, or bounce back and learn from this to find the perfect new R and quench our every desire.
But this just doesn't work. This all comes from a place of attachment. We are so attached to what we want that we can't bear to think we might not be able to get it.
I grieve the loss of my marriage. It hurts me to know I couldn't protect my kids from the pain of a broken home. I miss them when they go back to their mom's, the house goes from being filled with joy and life to seeming empty. It feels wrong to my soul that after centuries of families being torn apart by hardship and oppression that we now choose to do this to ourselves because we're willing to trade our families for the pursuit of happiness that appears to lie outside of our marriage in the arms of that other person.
But I am so grateful that God knocked the piss out of me and reminded me of my place, made it clear that my job wasn't to get everything I wanted but rather to serve Him, my family, my employer, and in the end to say thank you for this opportunity. My life will never fulfill my every desire or live up to the delusional aspirations I had when I was 18, but when I let go of that and focus my attention every day on what's in front of me it is so lavish I can't believe there was a time I demanded more before I could be content.
I got a little carried away and went from talking about lack of control to appreciation. My main point was about giving up the illusion of control. But appreciation has allowed me to find peace while my outer world crumbled. I wish that for everyone on these boards.
...appreciation has allowed me to find peace while my outer world crumbled.
Zues - This is probably a very stupid, 'well, duh' kind of question, but how do you do that? The appreciation thing? I tried the gratitude thing for a bit - count the working body parts when I get up, my amazing S, the roof over my head, my job, loved ones etc., but then I'd be the only single mum at a kids party and I'm looking around thinking - well, she's much more awful than me and her husband hasn't left her... I got tired of being grateful for all the things that everyone else took for granted and didn't have to work for, including their husbands. Which then made me very angry.
I don't want to hijack this thread so if you could pop over to my thread when you have a spare moment, would appreciate it.
((Maybell)) you have been such a blessing to the people here.
Hey 2016. You're right, gratitude isn't easy. But it is a habit that gets easier. Or maybe I just endured enough to get to where I had no alternative and had to become more appreciative to survive. But here are a couple of thoughts that guided me through:
The mantra that saved my life was this: If God gives me my health, my children, my family, food to eat, a job to do, friends, gifts and talents that I can bring and share with the world, music to listen to, a nice car to drive, a comfortable bed to sleep in...ALL OF THIS...and I STILL look up at the sky and say "Screw You God, without the woman and relationship I want the way I want it when I want it I think all of this is total bull$hit and you can stuff it and take it all back!"...If I was truly THAT ungrateful- well, let's face it, one screwed up woman wouldn't really make me any less miserable.
This is similar to focusing on what you have to be appreciative for, but somehow this struck home for me. Here's one from about 2 years in:
I've been existing in the space between.
What I mean is this. I was thinking about how much space is in the Universe. And I was thinking about how even things we feel as solid like this keyboard are actually made up of atoms of which 99.999999999999% are supposedly empty space. From where we sit it feels like our universe is filled up, and everything is solid. But that's really an illusion. It's practical enough for us to live our lives of course.
This is how I've felt about our lives. It's like we have these things that act on us, but most of our lives occurs in the space between. Take something that we might consider as unpleasant, like going to the dentist to get a cavity drilled. There are some true moments of discomfort, I am not disputing that a drill buzzing into a nerve doesn't cause very real unpleasantness. But when you zoom out the drilling makes up a very small percent of the actual time that the 'dentist' takes up in your life.
Making the phone call to schedule the appointment doesn't hurt. Driving to the dentist isn't painful, just floating down the road in a temperature controlled vehicle listening to some music or a good audiobook. Making small talk while the receptionist checks you in is easy. Sitting in the lounge and playing some addictive smart phone game or wondering how magazines are still in business is pleasant enough. Getting seated in the dental chair is no big deal. The gaws, biting down on stuff for x-rays, little poking and prodding and cleaning, all fine.
If you add up the seconds in which a drill is actually causing physical pain, it's probably about a minute. Certainly not life's finest joy, but not really a big deal. And there is no work to be done, no stress of deadlines or demands from your job, your children, etc. When you get down to it, it's almost a vacation. Yes, a moment of unpleasantness, but vacations have moments of unpleasantness too, like feelings claustrophobic on a crowded stuffy airplane that is forced to taxi for an extra half hour, or being hung over for those that drink, etc.
My point is that life has felt a lot like that lately too. Our problems in life are very real. They do impact us. But in the end, 99% of our life occurs in the space between. I can't fix the problems in my life, but I can demote them from authority figures that have the right to confiscate my ability to appreciate the rest of the time that my problems don't actually touch me. And if you've read my other recent posts (how we always have 83 problems no matter what, how life's biggest problems are unsolvable) I am starting to think that's the most important thing we do in our lives.
And finally, since I mentioned it above here is the last part (from a book I read):
A man that traveled the world to see the Buddha. He finally got an audience, and proceeded to tell the Buddha all about his problems. His family problems. His crops. His finances. Etc. Buddha calmly nodded.
Finally the Buddha said "I can't help you". The man was upset and asked what he meant. Buddha replied "Everyone has problems. 83 problems to be exact. And there's nothing you can do about it. If you work hard you can solve one, but another will appear in it's place. For example, you're going to lose all of your loved ones at some point, we'll all die. Now that's a problem no one can do anything about."
So the man was furious and asked what the point of being wise was!
Buddha told him he could help with his 84th problem...the desire to not have any problems.
In conclusion, I just realized little by little that I didn't have to wait for every negative emotion and painful situation to leave my life. I could accept that fact there were some things I really didn't like and some things that didn't feel good, I just didn't have to let that overwhelm everything else I had.
I'll check out your thread too. Hang in.
Excellent posting and I'm going to add it to the Resource Thread over on the MLC Forum.
Hey Zues
I am glad I came over to newcomers because this is an excellent post. I agree. If someone that leaves wants to come back they will make it happen. And its a hard thing to accept upon acute BD. Its a hard thing to just let go. To release that control.
There are still times I look back and wonder if only I had not done or reacted in that way... Would it have made a difference?
And yes. Our projections do keep us attached.
I remember upon acute BD keeping a notebook filled with any interactions I had with ex. A positive column and a negative column, and analyzing what I did right and what I could have done differently. I remember how I would come on here and post because I could not keep my emotions... my anger and hurt hidden from him and in check. (In fact you were the one that would often respond to my posts filled with regret that I had ruined any chances of reconciliation
Thank you btw)
I would reflect upon how there were spouses here willing to forgive their exes for infidelity and stealing and lying and how my ex would not forgive me for my reactions.
I gave him too much power. But I also gave myself too much power, and I am still having difficulty forgiving him and myself for our failure at marriage. He failed at commitment. But I failed at a pretty deep level as well and its hard to recognize what was me and what was reactions to a dynamic that was built
from both our inexperience and experiences.
I think you are right about the only way out of the pain is living in the present and practicing gratitude. But I struggle in the same ways 2016 does. But a good resolution none the less.
Happy New Year.
You are awesome
Hugs
J.
I needed to read this post, thank you!! I'll keep reading it when I think I get positive signals from H as well to keep me on my path.
I just found this post. Thank you Zues. I'm printing off and keeping in my night table and reading it until it's imprinted in my mind. Here I am 2 months after BD and thinking "well, that last week was a little better". Baloney. He needs to make the moves, not throw me little crumbs. I will stop analyzing every conversation, and continue to get on with my life, as difficult as it is sometimes. If he catches up, so be it. If not, so be it.
Holy cow I’m glad this got bumped. Great info and great read Zeus. Hopefully all the new comers read this!
Zues, quite an amazing horror story! I tried to find your original post, but no luck. Glad you're well past this.
Zues, quite an amazing horror story! I tried to find your original post, but no luck. Glad you're well past this.
Cwarrior, here is a link to all topics created by Zues
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=userposts&view=started&id=35735
I’m grateful this got bumped too. This was exactly what I needed to read tonight. Thanks.
Thanks, he doesn't tell this story in his thread. I can't imagine worse than this--glad he's moved on!
This is an amazing thread. It recently really sunk in. Maybe I should have read it the full ten times as recommended. The analogy to an addict hitting rock bottom is so apt. That is exactly what I compare it to.
Man, there was a Zeus post from a year or longer back, I think on his friend's thread that was just so good. If I find it I'll add it to the quotes page.
Awesome bump! Good stuff.
Still the funniest thread I ever read on here.
Yeah my W was telling me how good I look, asking if she can touch me, I said no she lunged and did anyway and boy I let that little thing get me into an R talk. That was incredibly stupid, she just had to reaffirm why and how she is leaving instead of wanting to touch me and not being able to. I could have had a small win for myself, instead I blew it by letting that micro positivity pull my emotions to be like “oh she likes me, let’s talk about the big OM bomb I got yesterday and see if that’s still what she wants” I laugh at myself for being so dumb, yeah man that’s still what she wants and looking good, even better than OM still ain’t gonna just make her change her mind like that. That was dumb of me! Ain’t going down that road again. She can’t even be physically attracted to me now without me using it for an R talk, I blew that up like a dumbass. /shrug lesson learned.
The goal of this post is to avoid misinterpreting their WAS's mixed messages resulting in actions that hurt ourselves, our WAS's, and our chances for the M.
If you're an LBS it's important that you don't assign too much meaning to signs of warmth or indecision from your WAS. One of the easiest mistakes to make is to assume other people feel and think similar to how we do. In our LBS minds it's easy to project how we feel or how we desperately want our WAS's to feel onto them. Maybe this is part of denial, we simply can't imagine things not working out so we are just waiting for the sign that shows us this is the part of the movie where everyone falls back into each others arms.
Hey, we're human, we're going to feel desperate at times and get our hopes up at times. That's fine. We just can't let it derail the road we need to walk.
WAS's are much farther gone that we think. On these forums we say the marriage is dead at BD. That maybe if you do your work and they do theirs a day might come when the two people you become reengage, but this relationship is dead.
This isn't about giving up hope. I'm 100% in favor of standing for a marriage. It's about not allowing ourselves to be strung along and fed crumbs so we end up enabling an impermissible situation.
I remember when, 90 days after BD, my XW started sending me emails that demonstrated some regret. I'd been warned and was trying very hard to be deliberate and cautious. Very hard. I waited hours before I'd respond. I'd check with the boards. I was TRYING to reign my emotions in. But when she used phrases like "She hated divorce" and "She liked the person I was becoming" and "She missed talking to me" and asking if I was seeing anyone or if I still thought about us together, I was SURE this was a big break through! She finally was seeing what I saw, that we can work this out!!!
She called me late in the night and said she was drinking a little and she missed me and our marriage and was so lonely she didn't think she could make it through. I, the white knight I was, drove over to see her because she sounded like she was in a dark place.
You all buckled up? When I got there, she freaked out because OM was sleeping upstairs in the marital bed passed out. She was depressed because he had just told her he wanted to break up with her. I'll spare you what was by FAR the worst part (for those who like pain you can dig up my old thread) but I had a chance the next day to open up her phone and I was blown away with what I saw. She had been with many different guys, and she had a different persona via text message exchange with each of them including new OMs she was lining up. She also had one with her friend talking about how "Great, now I have to push Zues away again because of yesterday..."
This isn't my thread, but I hope this example is better than a general warning. Conflicting feelings and some sadness does NOT equate to remorse and commitment to the marriage.
So, how is it that they can express genuine regret, pain, loneliness, and warmth without meaning 'let's get the band back together?'
Simple. Those feelings are genuine, they just aren't commitment.
Pretend your WAS started using heroine habitually. Or started gambling away all of their money every paycheck. Do you think that they'd feel regret at times? Do you think they'd feel the pain of the consequences of their choices at times? Do you think that they'd miss their old life at times? Of course they would, but that's totally irrelevant. We know they do. The ONLY thing that matters is whether they have felt enough of those things to hit the rock bottom to where they'll actually commit 100% to changing their lives for the better. Even then it's lip service and only time will tell if their actions match their words.
So why do they do this to us? Simple. To avoid consequences.
Some is avoiding physical consequences. Maybe they want to control the speed of the breakup, like when you wade into cold water little by little. They aren't ready to be splashed yet, they're still working up to it- but they are going to do it on their time, in their way. They don't want you charging around now they have to deal with consequences like being cut off financially, or having family or mutual friends hear about their behavior, and it sure is easier to get you to agree to give them whatever they want whenever they want it when you are blinded by hope.
Some consequences they wish to avoid are emotional. So long as they string you along they aren't sacrificing their marriage for their love affair because they know they can get you back at any time, so they are just indulging themselves because they deserve to feel better. No, they don't want you back, but by knowing you are still there they don't have to deal with the sense of loss the same way they would if you moved on.
So how can they say they say they want to repair the marriage one day and then not follow through the next, you KNOW they were being genuine at the time. Hey, I'm not saying those emotions aren't real, just that they aren't the same as ongoing consistent behavior. There is something I call "Medicating with positive intent". Think of it this way. Say a friend is in an abusive relationship. Their partner just slapped them around. They call you crying and saying they can't take anymore. So what do they do? They talk to you for hours, making plans about where they will go, what they will do, and on and on. Guess what? Now they are feeling better. Empowered. Hopeful. They feel alright again...hmm...now they feel alright again, and guess what? Things aren't that bad. They do love so and so. They can get through it after all. I don't know about you but I've seen too many examples of people that truly convince themselves they are going to make a positive change because the good feelings that follow their well intended proclamation are all they really needed, no reason now to bother with all of that following through hard work stuff. It'll be ok. Right?
So what's an LBS to do?
Well, the first step is to read this like ten times and really understand it. Because while our feelings will be all over the map, we have a responsibility. If we truly love our WAS's we need to allow them to experience the consequences of their choices. This is the best chance to save the M. And if that isn't possible, consider it the last gift you give to someone you pledged your life to, ending on a positive note after all of the hurt. That gift means that when they are engaging in unhealthy choices that are destroying their lives we don't make it easy for them to keep doing it.
I'm not here to script out verbal responses to temp checks and displays of emotion, but the underlying message you need to communicate are things like this:
-Your not the shoulder to cry on anymore
-Getting back together isn't that simple anymore
-You are firm in your boundaries and won't accept [open marriage, loveless marriage, sexless marriage, uncommitted partner, disrespect, etc]
-You've told her everything you have to tell her and have nothing left to say (no R talks, never ever ever ever).
From our LBS view it seems like we're destroying our only hope. But WAS wants to have the R talk!!! If I blow them off then they'll blame me for being the one that ended it.
Hogwash. If WAS is seriously remorseful and ready to do anything and everything to work on the marriage they will let you know. They won't play games. The 'well then, that's why we can't work' card is manipulative and proof there is no lasting remorse. Any R talk that doesn't start with them going first with a list of apologies and re-commitments is just proving to her that you are willing to compromise your boundaries and remain emotionally involved with a wayward spouse. I repeat, this is hurting yourself, your WAS, and your chances of preserving your family.
In conclusion, if you are seeing signs that your spouse wants to return, post all about it here. Get it out of your system. Overreact on these forums. Tell us how it's going to work out after all, that we were wrong, that YOU KNEW your WAS, you KNEW they would fall back into your arms, that you think you are in piecing, etc, etc, etc. But please, for all that is good and holy, stay detached from them outwardly and give them time to see if they actually recommit, show true remorse, and prove it to you with consistent behavior over time. Keeping DBing and may you make it to the other side, whatever lies ahead.
This. Is. Awesome.
I see Zeus wrote this 5 days after my BD. And boy I wish I had read it the day it came out. (I didn't find this forum until near the end of Feb. 2018.)
But he is spot on here. I have three personal stories that prove his hypothesis as laid out in this post. And LBSs reading this, please learn from this!!
First, I have mentioned my decades long on-again, off-again relationship with an ex-GF. She kept me hanging on through the years, even through my dating others and her dating others. Even when we were dating our now spouses, she would occasionally throw out a "I'll always wonder what it would have been like to marry you." Stuff like that.
Well one fall she called me out of the blue. I was dating at that point but no one seriously, I was about a year and a half away from my meeting my W. She gave me this sob story about how her BF was moving to another town for a job offer. She told him she wasn't going, and she didn't want him to stay for her (lie). She kept me on the phone for 3 hours, reminiscing about times we had together, how she wanted to kiss me again, etc. (You get the point.) The last hour was concentrated on how she still loved me and wanted to know what was still possible between us. I tried to play it coy, but inside I was a ball of excited energy. When we finally hung up I had a pep in my step. I was on cloud 9!
Two weeks later she called again. It was weird she was very distant, with all small talk. It was as if she was avoiding the elephant in the room. Finally a few minutes in I said "Whatever happened with the job offer?" Her: "What job offer?" "The one X was going to be moving away for?" "Oh, he turned that down." And that was the end of it.
The first call had been to secure her Plan B, since Plan A had the chance of going away.
In 2005, my W had an EA. It was a very deep deep deeply emotional EA. She was all in. When I discovered it I could see how he was softening her up for a PA, grooming her. Early on she was insistent to him that she would never do that, but by time I found out about it she was starting to waver. She was opening up to meeting him for lunch so she could see if there was still a spark (she had known him in Jr. High). Maybe one kiss just to see what it was like. I found out about it and blew it up.
She immediately said she didn't want a D, she sent him a cease and desist email. She went into a period of "remorse". It was remorse for having been caught and losing her EA. Weeks went by she was sad and depressed. I saw it as a sign she was sorry for what she had done. Nope. Still sorry for losing her A. In fact, she had started emailing him again, and he wasn't responding. (I had threatened to tell his W, and he didn't want that.) Finally he responded to her that he didn't think they should talk, he didn't want to cause anymore problems for her. (Snake that he was, he really didn't want to cause problems for himself!)
That was when my W finally let go and recommitted fully the marriage. Her Plan A had fizzled so back to Plan B. (That's me.)
Then our most recent sitch, at the end of 2017. This time I discovered an EA (it was no where near as deep as the other but she was definitely full blown WW), and again confronted. She immediately said she wanted a D. This sitch is a long story, but eventually EAP bailed, and she went through a period of about a week of mourning. This time I realized she was mourning the loss of her A, and not really sorry for what she did. She then started looking for another Plan A, but at the same time she kept me as Plan B.
In the two days (Christmas Eve and Christmas) following BD, she was very affectionate. More so than she had been for years. However, when I brought this up she said "You seemed to be hurting so I was trying to make you feel better." IE. Plan B. When she mourned the loss of her A, she didn't want to remain married, but she wasn't ready to let go of Plan B (again me). Eventually she did feel bad for all she had done and wanted to work on marriage. As Zeus says, YOU WILL KNOW BECAUSE THEY WILL BE WILLING TO MOVE MOUNTAINS TO COME BACK. Do not fall for being Plan B and false restarts. Make them earn their way back. That is only way you really go from being Plan B to being Plan A.