Hoosjim's 9th: WW, A ended(?); "All-in" or not?

Divorcebusting.com

Welcome to my 9th thread. Going on 11 months. How the time does fly.

Here is my previous thread, which escalated VERY quickly at the end. I can't possibly cut and paste all of it, so strongly recommend you read the last few pages of it to get up to speed:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2769301&page=1

My sitch in the next post...

My sitch, if you haven't been following it:

In a nutshell, my profile is down there at the bottom. After a long period of neglect, definitely classifiable as a "sex-starved marriage", my W began EA with a close friend last October after I had gone to him for help with my M and basically revealed my W's vulnerabilities. There had been warning signs-- she had come to me a couple three times over past two years telling me how sad/lonely/lost/dead-inside she felt, and I pretty much turned it back on her every time, though one time I did ask her "not to leave" when it looked like she was going to. By the time of BD in January, actually when I overheard convo between her and OM talking, it would have been a stretch to say we were even "friends".

I was weak and desperate at first, but within less than two weeks after BD was really doing a great job with GAL's and 180s, and W noticed. Problem was, she was not a WAW but rather a WW, wanting to enjoy the single life, "girls gone wild" lifestyle with her single/divorced/separated friends, particularly her bff, also a WW(curiously enough, married to my own bff). I didn't handle my interactions with her all that well for a few weeks, wavering between "pursuit" and enablement. Finally got buckled down, though, and GALs and 180s really kicked in and W noticed.

Looked like A was going to or had even already died of natural causes... and then something happened. Still dont' know what. A meet up or night out or party or something and it rekindled. W bought a burner phone which I later found out about.

Beginning of June I tell her my boundary that "I wont share her or live in an open marriage". She indicates that cheater phone is gone and she will NC with OM. There is a big blow up night only a week later where she, I and her bff (who, it turns out, is now a good friend of OM and a major enabler my W's A) had too much to drink, said too much, and my W ended up sneaking out after we went home to meet up with bff and OM. She did NOT know I knew about this, and I did not confront her thinking we could "use a reset" based on events. I do put up some surveillance on her and late June, not long before we are to start intensive therapy, I "catch" her in two fairly intimate/emotional encounters with OM.

I go dark for four days during which she pursues me relentlessly. She finally corners me into a talk where she talks about all the things SHE did wrong in our MR that led us to this point... and then I tell her what i know about her and OM. She then takes several steps (without explicitly promising me full transparency or committing fully to working on MR) that lead me to believe she is really "Trying" in her own way. This turns out to be false as of 7/23 when I find out she has purchased a second burner phone and she confesses to fairly regular text and phone contact with OM. I walked off and left her at car that night, slept in separate BR, etc. and pretty much "go dark", wont even talk to her about it. She keeps after me by phone and text for two days, eventually corners me into a convo, says tearfully that she is sorry she hurt me, that she had been "working up to" cold-turkey no contact with OM (a self-contradiction, yes) and that she had called OM to break it off and destroyed her extra phone (heard that one before) and that she wanted to work on trying to "figure us out." I tell her that it's not going to be that easy, that I am not sure that I can or should trust her and not sure that I want to try to work things out any more.

A week later (8/1, I think), I confront OM and, in an ugly exchange, tell him I know everything and to stay away from my wife and family. While somewhat cathartic for me on some level, this brings back a lot of pain and hurtful feelings/memories for both me and W. We talk about it and she is still bothered by thought that she has "hurt" OM and that he may have been further "hurt" by my confrontation. She also said she is "not sure" what she wants to do about us. I listen but say little. That weekend, we talk again, and I reiterate that "maybe we need some time on our own" and she says (for what seems like the 20th time) that she is tired of all the "pain" and "negativity" and wishes we could just push the "reset" button and let "Monday be Monday and Tuesday by Tuesday without all the painful relationship talk." She also thinks we should just try to "be in the moment" and "try to have fun". I tell her that I am not willing to keep living with the uncertainty, that I am still not certain I can trust her, and that if she wanted to, as she said, "work on figuring us out" I would need some things, including solid assurances the OM was "gone" and to know that she was committed to the process and that we'd get professional help.

At that point, she starts behaving in exemplary fashion. She pretty much doesn't leave the house unless its with me, is letting me track her phone, did not even ask to see her bff (until very recently), and started coming by one of my GAL hangouts where I was going once a week after work. After the discovery of second burner phone, we slept apart for a while but eventually she joined me in 2nd BR and we have been "sleeping" (that's all, sadly) together ever since.

We have progressively been doing more and more things socially, and generally having a lot of fun, and she had been gradually warming up to me, evidenced mainly by increased comfort with me, increasing willingness to touch and be touched by me, and inviting me to do some things she used to do alone. Unfortunately, though, we are still kind of in a limbo where she is not as eager to go rehashing or working through the pain we caused each other, and would prefer to just go out and "have fun" and see if "lightning can strike" and she can get those romantic, intimate feelings back. She has more recently said in counseling that she understands that we are going to have to be more deliberate and "just do it" if we are to get that intimate component back. MC assigned us some reading to do as well as some self-exploration exercises, and we were supposed to circle back with her in a week or two. However, life happened and we didn't get back with MC until six weeks after that intensive.

W says that everything now between us is as good as or better than its ever been, except for that one missing piece (sex/intimacy-- yes, a big piece). She has agreed to go continue counseling on a more regular basis, that it "helps" and that things always "seem better" right after our sessions. While she has several times mentioned IC, which we both agree is likely a must for full reconciliation, she has not yet pulled the trigger on that and has shown varying degrees of commitment to it. There have been similar ups and downs with the joint counselling-- sometimes seeming very energetic and taking the initiative on the projects/work MC gives us, but sometimes letting it lapse-- although she has in general been much more engaged with that than with the IC.

MC said we were going to have to a)work through some of our individual issues in IC 2) Do some work on forgiveness and trust and processing the hurts we had caused each other and 3) Get comfortable with the idea of physical intimacy between us which at times is kind of awkward and weird under the circumstances. Both MC and DB coach's suggestions basically amount to "just do it" (not necessarily sex, but any physical contact.) W agreed that 1 and 2 were necessary, and is coming around about 3, but admits it feels awkward and weird. Weve had an increasing number of of really, really good, fun spontaneous nights, including a fair amount of physical contact, hugs, us falling asleep holding each other.

About a month ago, however, she has experienced a set-back/pull-back. She has been quieter, withdrawn, kind of moody and sullen, and definitely less warm and friendly. This period came right after her losing a close friend from college to a sudden heart attack, followed closely by toxic bff calling her from OM's bar with OM and crew in attendance to "say hi" to her. On the call, she was in tears, but admitted she "really wanted to be there" (she does not know I know about this convo.) The night of the afternoon she had that convo was our really good night out where she started out sad and quiet but really livened up by end of evening (she even through out a couple of playful sexual innuendos) and we fell asleep in each others arms. Other than that, though, the month since that time was generally stagnant, maybe even kind of a downswing. She had bounced back quite a bit from that setback, though she still has "down" spells.

I am not monitoring her regularly, though do spot check from time to time. Nothing to tell though she has, as recently as 10 days ago, "driven by" OM's old hangout but not stopped, gone in or, near as I can tell, contacted him.

Her bff is still a potential problem/hurdle, but bff is a lifelong friend and someone who, despite bff's very questionable lifestyle morals and decisionmaking, my W trusts... probably more than anyone including myself, and bff is definitely preaching the positives of divorce, single-hood, and the OM. She recently "reconnected" with bff (who lives an hour away but journeys here weekly for work) after about a month of layoff, and I have consented to her visiting the one time (where she to all appearances behaved herself). BFF clearly went way over the line last month though with the intentional call from the OM's bar to try to entice my W to come out and meet her and OM (my W declined, but admitted she "really wanted to" and then also declined a dinner invite from bff for later that night and then again the following day... but she definitely spent some time in a funk afterwards, and again for an evening after reading some news about OM's son.) Just yesterday, I found out that... BFF IS DEFINITELY MOVING TO FLA (1000 miles away) when her D is final!!!! This definitely wont hurt my wife's recovery.

For my part, and GAL, Feels like I've actually made a lot of progress personally, even if my M is not. Some of that has stagnated as I have made more time to "be around" my W while she is going through withdrawals from the OM/A, because I suffered a chest injury a few weeks back, and because I have felt funny about going out "on my own" when she is intentionally NOT doing so.

Most recently, things turned a bit weird over a drunken kiss we "shared" last weekend, and about her visit to a department store near OM's hangout. The details of that are extensive, and very pertinent my present sitch, and are detailed in my previous thread which escalated ridiculously fast in the past couple of days due to many many people chiming in with a number of insightful and thoughtful posts. In sum, I am now questioning MY commitment to this process due to W's response (or lack thereof) to the kiss, her take on the likelihood of us getting physical ever again (not very), and my memory of her and OM in the not too distant past discussing in some detail how they were going to do that very thing. (She REALLY wants to live here, with me knowing she wanted and was willing to get it on with the OM, and at the same time telling me that that aint gonna happen with us? I get madder every second i think about it.) Her somewhat shaky commitment to the process of MC and reconcilliation is also troublesome, and that is where we pick up this episode of "The Travails of HoosJim..."

Sandi, if you are out there and still talking to me...

Quote:

You kind of danced around it, but finally said she did commit. Are you currently saying that it was all half-a$$ed on her part?

I am coming to the realization that it may be all half-a$$ed on her part based on the evaluations that you kind folks are offering. I believed she was truly "in", but the things she is saying now seem at least a little equivocal: "I am willing to try and i think these things are probably possible given what MC is telling us, but I also am saying that I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

Quote:

However, I am having a bit of a frustrating moment (after reading your recent posts) wondering how much you were pushing and just how much she truly was on board...

Not sure i understand the point of the question. In some sense, they are all "pushed", yes? In TXHubby's case by the prospect of him leaving, in your case by the prospect of your kids finding out. In my case it was the prospect of losing me (or at least her marriage) and her kids, and possibly the respect of her family. (Note that this is my take and not entirely based on what she has said... see my post on this in the previous thread in response to Ginger's query). When I "took her back" after that final confrontation, we had a talk, where i made it clear that i was only "back" for one reason.. that she had come clean about the phone (yes, under some duress-- i asked her what we would find if we searched the online phone records, but she never had to hand it over physically and I am not the type to forcefully physically take something from a woman.) I laid out my boundary-- I would not share her with another man, or in any way shape or form with OM. Any more contact and I would be gone. I also told her what my conditions for "working on figuring things out with hoosjim" (which is how she had put it when she was telling OM goodbye). Those conditions included seeking professional help (counselling), putting our R first over any others (I had bff in mind specifically, here, but i also meant this some in reference to our kids, about whom i told her i expected our relationship to be given at least equal importance and time, and some type of transparency (and, yes, i was not as specific here as I should have been, though i did say i needed to know where she was-- and so she enabled the tracking of her phone which has remained on ever since).

I know she fears losing the kids, and I think she remembers me saying i would be reluctant to lie to them if asked by them about the A... something she took as a "threat" initially but which i retraced on, explaining that i would not be "outing" her to them in a vacuum, but, if asked (and at the time i suspected that my S18 suspected something) it would be very hard for me to lie to them to further her A. So maybe that's some coercion here? Idunno.

I have been the one to make all the MC appointments. She has gone, willingly, and things have pretty uniformly been "Better" between us following the sessions but, yes, I have had to take the initiative here, though she has been receptive on all but on occasion where she balked a bit, ostensibly because of her work schedule. That actually resulted in a bit of a tif where I reminder her i wanted this to have "priority" and she got REALLY upset in the next MC session saying "so you dont think i am making this a priority It's practically all i think about all day every day, and oh by the way while Im trying to survive a 60 hour work week!" (which was not actually what i had been trying to say... i hadn't meant to say she wasnt working on it, just that we needed to make it "A" priority along with other things--- in particular a school function that she had said we needed to go to for our younger boy that week that conflicted.

I have on probably three or four occasions asked her if she is "all in" or how committed she is. She has typically gotten pretty defensive about this and said "I am doing everything you want" or "This is pretty much all i think about 24/7, of course i am committed to it". And then, most recently, what i posted above and in my last thread from the MC session on 12/6.

FWIW, MC has said repeatedly that if W has not "fully given up the relationship with the OM, there is no point in 'working on' anything. She has also said we both need to be committed to restoring our relationship, and she seems to think that W is committed enough to it at the present time. But i have my doubts. My W's "Right now I just don't see those things happening between us or how they could" keeps echoing around in my head... along with her and OM's graphic sexual talk.

Dont know if all that answers your Q. Maybe with some more color from the MC session below...

Quote:

I learn she never put her wedding ring back on........which is a sign of rebellion, IMHO.

Look, this wedding ring thing really has me wrapped around the axle. I never even thought of that angle. Well, a little, but the fact that MINE had been off (I simply lost it and had no way to put it back on) for months before she took hers off kind of defused me. Id wanted to hold onto that for if we reconciled... new rings, etc., but it honestly never occured to me that her keeping them off under the circumstances (me missing mine AND having told her I would probably want new rings and vows) was anything to worry about. Now, you've really gotten me worried about it. But not really sure how to broach or handle it!

Quote:

I asked you to see how she responded in the recent MC. Did the MC assign more homework? What was W's attitude during the session? How did she act on the way home? Did she seem distant, in deep thought, texting, cold, or encouraged and talkative?

We only did an hour, much of which consisted of discussing the kiss, its setup, and our reactions to it. Also talked about the trip to Store X and then some about affair addictiveness and recovery and then scheduling and the importance of REGULAR sessions.

W responded well enough. She left work early, sounded stressed on the ride home when she called me that she might be late, participated in the discussion, seemed comfortable with the MC (perhaps moreseo than at any time in the past-- joking and laughing with her on a couple of occasions) and made noise like she was more likely to consult her for IC than she had in past... said "I almost picked up the phone twice this week to call her, then didn't." (and please don't say im rationalizing here... im just reporting what she said)

W was defensive still about the trip to the store, saying again that she did it because she didnt want to be afraid to go places. MC cautioned her that this was a delicate time and that it could have hurt both me and W and our MR had W run into OM... also that trust was an important component here and had W considered how that affected my trust for her (though she did say W did the right thing by fessing up after the fact). W granted how she could see that was so. Didn't sound sulky or pouty or anything when saying it.

WRT the kiss, my initial recollection may have been a BIT harsh. W related the story, saying she had asked me "well what would you do with another girl in a similar situation" rather than saying "why don't you just do what you want to do" (which is how i'd remembered it but, on reflection-- and remember i was 6 or 7 drinks gone that night-- i think W's recollection was closer to the mark, if not exactly on. In that case, I elected to demonstrate rather than explain. W said she did not really expect me to kiss her, though she wondered if I would and said how she could see that, especially under the drunken circumstances, it could come across as goading or as an invitation. She also said she did not ask that question intending to gauge WON "There would be sparks", but that that was something she thought about only afterwards. Finally, we apparently talked alittle after the kiss, with me immediately saying "wow, that was weird" (I am SUCH an idiot.)

There was no homework other than to continue reading in the book and to meet with her next week. Also to talk about scheduling after the new year, where MC said we should really try to do intensives once every 4-6 weeks since we seemed to get our best progress out of those, plus they are FTF (our other sessions are typically skyped). W concurred that we probably needed to meet more frequently since we seemed to lose momentum between visits if too much time elapsed, and since we both seemed to feel better immediately after visits, and she was agreeable to the idea of regular intensives.

We talked for a bit after the session on our own. Some about the physical intimacy (she's really wondering how we get there and does NOT feel comfortable with the idea of doing that with me righ tnow.)
Also talked about bff (who IS moving to Fla next month... HOORAY!!!!) and about how that relationship would somehow have to be reconciled with ours, if both were to be maintained. Neither of us had any answers for that puzzle, and we both had had the same thought in the past week about how we would respond if asked out to dinner by one of our respective bff's and their respective now-swapped spouses. (yeesh...like a regular frikking payton place around here.) I told her she was a grown woman and able to make her own choices on friends, but did she think that bff's friendship was supportive or damaging to our own efforts. She defended bff some, saying that she (W) was a big girl, made her own decisions, and that bff never contacted OM or did anything else in that regard that she (W) did not ask bff to do. (Which, from the pub phone call last month, we know is not completely true)

We also talked about IC... the fact that she had had some of these personal hang ups and feelings and issues even as far back as when we first met, and whether or not she felt like she would be able to be "all in" any relationship until she got those resolved. She said she didn't know but she kind of doubted it. Said she had been thinking heavily about Ic and had almost picked up phone to contact the MC twice the past week. She has in the past voiced reservations about using MC since MC is also my own IC.

Afterward, she did not seem withdrawn or mopey. Perhaps a bit energized as, for no apparent reason, she ran out and jumped in the car with me when i was going out to fill the car with gas.

HJ,

Again, if she was all in you would at least would be able to kiss by now.

I wish you the best and I really hope turns out well for you!

Quote:

Seems like there got to be a bit of a feeding frenzy here at the end of the thread to start a 2x4 party on me and you jumped in as well.

Why do people always think I'm giving them a 2x4? And, since when do I need to have anyone else giving a 2x4 for me to "jump in"? In fact, when I see a heavy dose already posted, I usually refrain. I'm sorry you saw it in that context, b/c it was not my intentions to upset you. I was a little frustrated when I wrote it, so I will try to learn to lay the IPad down and go do something else.

I did go back and glance over the last thread, and I did see what I believed to be rationalizing and/or in a correcting manner in some (not all) of your responses. Perhaps that's the difference in the heart of the writer, and the eyes of the reader. This is similar to texting, I suppose. One's personality or mood, may be misinterpreted in the typed words.

I'm going to say this about the wedding rings, then I'm through with it. The fact you lost your ring, should have no baring on her decision to not wear her ring after she committed to work on the MR. Having a new vow ceremony should not prevent her from wearing her current wedding ring.

Quote:

I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

Sounds as if she has friend zoned you for life. She has even commented on how she enjoys hanging out with you, but once you get back home......it's roommate status again. So, that's a double whammy facing the MR. Maybe during IC, the C could cover some of the SSM issues and get to the bottom of why your W feels that way.

In one of my threads on WW's, I talk about how upon the decision to remain in the MR, the H should let her know it is with the understanding she will be sleeping with him. No more separate bedrooms, etc. He can give her time to go through withdrawals and to get the OM out of her head, but she should know upfront that this will not be a roommate arrangement.

It was fine for you to set up the MC appointments. Your W claimed she ended her affair and was committed to "trying" (which really is not what one wants to hear about commitment, but they want it so badly, they will settle for their S trying). Anyway, the next step was MC. According to what you reported, she was trying and things (friendship wise) were getting much better.

Quote:

FWIW, MC has said repeatedly that if W has not "fully given up the relationship with the OM, there is no point in 'working on' anything. She has also said we both need to be committed to restoring our relationship, and she seems to think that W is committed enough to it at the present time. But i have my doubts. My W's "Right now I just don't see those things happening between us or how they could" keeps echoing around in my head... along with her and OM's graphic sexual talk.

Well the MC is right. Your W must kill all traces of OM in her fantasies. For me, that was the hardest part of getting through the last stages of the withdrawal/mourning. I would guess your W's defensive attitude toward being "all in or out" comes from her knowing her lack of romantic attraction. She still craves that passion she reads about and sees in movies. If she would meet with the same C for this precise reason (as well as other important ones), maybe she would feel freer to express herself. A woman's most important sex organ is her brain. That's where the problem lies for her. Of course the kiss felt weird, b/c she set it up in her brain to feel weird.......plus, she put zero effort into responding to the kiss, if I read correctly.

Quote:

Also talked about bff (who IS moving to Fla next month... HOORAY!!!!) and about how that relationship would somehow have to be reconciled with ours, if both were to be maintained.

I don't understand. Does she mean that you and her BFF has to be buddies, if the MR was to be maintained?

Quote:

I don't understand. Does she mean that you and her BFF has to be buddies, if the MR was to be maintained?

Actually, it was a bit more me on that end of it... It came up in the context of it being a challenging three days, between her dinner with bff, stop by at that store, and then the kiss thing. Got talking a bit more about bff and it was I that made the comment that she was a big girl and could decide who are friends were, but needed to decide if her friends were supportive or detracting from where she wanted to go in life... If she and I are working on "us", i have my doubts about bff based on my last interactions with her. Told her that i wasn't sure how I saw two relationships that important to her coexisting without there being some sort of olive branch or other kind of reconcilliation from bff, who has clearly "wronged" me by working against my marriage. She said she could understand how i felt that way, didn't seem to angry or defensive. Didn't say she expected us to be able to hang out... just that she had thought how weird it would be if bff and her AP (who, youll recall, is a former friend of both me and my own best friend who is W's best friend STBXH).

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

... just that she had thought how weird it would be if bff and her AP (who, youll recall, is a former friend of both me and my own best friend who is W's best friend STBXH).

Dude! I had to read that a few times to figure-out if there was any incest involved.

Quote:

Dude! I had to read that a few times to figure-out if there was any incest involved.

Yeah, it is pretty incestuous/twisted. Easiest way to think about it is a wife-swap amongst two couples who are/were are friends-- one couple comprised of our respective best friends, and another couple comprised of mutual friends, all of whom were "friends" previously. The two other dudes involved are both college fraternity brothers and long-term friends of mine. See, even when I try to simplify it, I can't

Hey man, it's like your very own commune. Your problems are solved. Situation normal; just go with the flow. Peace man.

And, like when you totally get the munchies, choose healthy organic stuff.

Sandi, do you think I should be more proactive on a couple of these points? Because I did not earlier establish expectations as to how I expected us to live.

Quote:

I'm going to say this about the wedding rings, then I'm through with it. The fact you lost your ring, should have no baring on her decision to not wear her ring after she committed to work on the MR. Having a new vow ceremony should not prevent her from wearing her current wedding ring.

I am going to ask that you not be done with it for just one more post: Do you think I should bring it up with her... possibly in next Wednesday's MC session? (which will be our last until the New Year.)

Quote:

In one of my threads on WW's, I talk about how upon the decision to remain in the MR, the H should let her know it is with the understanding she will be sleeping with him. No more separate bedrooms, etc. He can give her time to go through withdrawals and to get the OM out of her head, but she should know upfront that this will not be a roommate arrangement.

Do you mean just sleeping together or do you mean "sleeping together"

Because I would think in most or at least many of these situations a newly-returned WW would not be ready for that level of intimacy. In my case, of course, we are sleeping together... but that's it, though she has become more comfortable with being close to me or even touching me in bed, which is a change from previously when she would perch on the far edge with her back turned. She's still not comfortable being naked around me.

What I am wondering is if I should sit her down, after Christmas or even maybe before (do I want to go through a sham holiday where we pretend all is well(?)) and say something similar to what LH19 suggests?:

"honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you"

Because I think that captures my sentiment pretty well. I dont think I can keep living that way... at least not without some hope or some indication or some willingness on her part that things at the very least might change in the future. Or that she is committed to giving working towards that her best shot.

Quote:

Sounds as if she has friend zoned you for life.

Is being friend-zoned typically a death knell, or can that zone be escaped in this sort of sitch? Interestingly in our case, I was in that zone with her when we first met, before she "came around" to me, lol.

Quote:

I think you are spot-on with this assessment. She craves the spark-y feelings she got from OM's blandishments and attentions, and that she sees in her hallmark channel shows and romance novels (which thankfully, at least for the time being, she has stopped reading). (I haven't asked her what she felt when she kissed him, though I was plenty tempted to in session.)

MC's MO here, which seems to mirror MWD's, is to, on some level, "just do it"-- practice progressing levels of intimacy until you get over that awkward feeling, and the intentional acts of kindness and tenderness toward each other will eventually lead to a deeper kind of love and connection. What I am wondering is did I/we jump the gun on that... such that it is not possible to get there from where we are. (Giving credence to the idea that we would need to separate physically).

Problem I have understanding that line of thinking is reconciling it what MWD preaches in her books, which, except for the ATLRT, seem to countenance "waiting it out" as opposed to jumping ship and separating. This is not the first time I have posted this and many here seem to think I am putting my head in the sand or making excuses but... I really don't see the consistency in that line of thinking with the basic DB-=ing tenets. If separation is SO important in some of these cases (in fact perhaps even a sine qua non)-- and I am really trying to have more of an open mind on here lately-- how does that reconcile with MWD's writings and, if it doesn't reconcile, hadn't somebody ought to hip her to that fact so she could put it into the next revision?

Thanks as always, Sandi... you have been giving me a lot of your time, recently, and I appreciate it. FWIW I am talking to MC solo this afternoon, because I am really starting to despair a bit, and get to the end of my rope, here. If you have any suggestions as to specific things I might bring up with her, I'd really appreciate it.

If you ask her to put on her wedding ring, and she does, will that signal to you that she has committed?

Or will you just wonder if she only put it on because you asked her to and leave you still wondering?

Jim, you strike me as an extremely analytical person, which is fantastic, but may be working against you here. We've all been telling you for the last 10 pages or so that your W is NOT invested in your M. You seem to be trying to explain all these reasons why that may or may not be the case, but brother it's simple, she's NOT. So what are YOU going to do about YOU. That is the question for you to ponder. You can't make her want to work on things, but you CAN make yourself irresistible to the point that she fears losing you. So put your analytical skills to work figuring out what that looks like, how you can get there.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

but I also am saying that I have a hard time seeing that point or how we get there based on where we are currently" [which is that even kisses are really awkward and weird and that right now the type of romantic intimacy envisioned for intimate couples "ain't gonna happen" for us] As an aside, this "ain't gonna happen" (whether qualified time-wise or not, now or in the future) is causing me to increasingly do a slow burn. Really? Really?!? She knows i heard her and Om discussing, in pretty graphic detail, EXACTLY what they were going to do to each other sexually if they ever got around to it.. and she was clearly "willing" or close to it... and now she's going to tell ME "well, I'll stay here and live with you and be your wife in name but we wont be doing that." REALLY?!?!?!?

GOOD Jim! You should be VERY angry about that, and fed up with the bullcrap. What kind of marriage is that? "We'll stay married but forget about ever having sex with me, and I don't think I even want to kiss you. Oh but by the way, I totally fantasize about sex with other men." Instead of trying to break this down 10 different ways, I want you to visualize two signs in your head. "DEAL" or "NO DEAL". Now tell me, what should your response be to the above scenario. Don't tell me about your past sexual disfunction, or how bad you -think- she wants to work on things or whatever. DEAL or NO DEAL. I hope to hell you say NO DEAL. That's it, it really is as simple as that. NO DEAL. What does that mean? Get out. Get a life. DB. Leave her alone to sort out what she wants while you go out and be awesome.

Personally I think you should sit down with her, tell her that you've thought about her comments that sex is never going to happen, that you're starting to realize that you've done all the work on recon while she's been a less than willing participant and you're done with it all. No deal. You're going to discontinue the MC and think about where YOU want to go from here and you suggest she do the same. Then DB your heart out.

Quote:

That's an excellent question, and point. Although I had not necessarily intended to ask her to put it on. Was more interested in WON it would be productive to bring it up as a discussion point, perhaps in MC session. Im just wondering what her thinking on it is, if she is thinking about it at all, at the present time.

To answer your question, yes, I absolutely would wonder.

Your sitch is similar to mine after my W returned. She made what seemed to me only lukewarm efforts because she was not fully invested. I think you got good advice from AS above. In your current situation, you're only going to be frustrated and display all the wrong behaviors trying to convince your W to commit more fully to the marriage.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

What I am wondering is if I should sit her down, after Christmas or even maybe before (do I want to go through a sham holiday where we pretend all is well(?)) and say something similar to what LH19 suggests?:

"honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you"

Because I think that captures my sentiment pretty well. I dont think I can keep living that way... at least not without some hope or some indication or some willingness on her part that things at the very least might change in the future. Or that she is committed to giving working towards that her best shot.

i think this is a good idea... it finally addresses what was missing from the beginning of your attempt at reconciling...

but i don't think you should say, "at least not without some hope or some indication or some willingness on her part that things at the very least might change in the future," because that is a loop-hole she will cling to... you as a lawyer say nothing is definitive... that's not true... people like to use words such as might, may, maybe, perhaps, try, at the very least, hope, etc., so they cannot be held accountable for not following through...

but we can make commitments and keep them... and we do when we really want to... don't give her loop holes... don't give her wiggle room... when i approached my husband about reconciliation, he allowed me no more wiggle room like he had during our false starts... he finally said, "this is what i need, and anything short of that, i am not interested," and i immediately began doing what i needed to do to save our M... and still it took time for him to really buy in to the reconciliation...

artista

Originally Posted By: artista

[quote=hoosjim]

What I am wondering is if I should sit her down, after Christmas or even maybe before (do I want to go through a sham holiday where we pretend all is well(?)) and say something similar to what LH19 suggests?:

"honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you"artista

HJ,
You are leaving out the most important part. Communicating confidently that this is non-negotiable.

Not um a kinda sort of don't think I can live this way. Come on man!

The thing is, Jim, you have to follow through. Not rationalize her answer and say never mind.

Well, my overall track record here is not good, but the last time there was what I will call a "fulcrum moment" I thought I generally did pretty well... it was pretty much the most desperately she has pursued me since this all began. My follow up was not quite as firm as it could have been, mostly from not having thought things through fully and having a plan for various eventualities, but I've learned from my mistakes.

Plus, I'm just a hell of a lot more level-headed and grounded in general than I was when this all started.

Best pieces of advice I think ive seen here today are the ones telling me to recommit to "doing me" instead of just "doing the MR". I have let that slip a bit, though my shoulder injury has played almost as big a part as has the attention I've been giving to W and the MR.

Had an amazingly good session with the MC/IC today. I'll detail later as im kinda busy right now but... she definitely agrees on some of the opinions offered up here, and some of her stuff could be straight out of the DB handbook. At any rate, she's a real sweetheart... made me feel a lot better about just stuff in general-- not just the MR-- when I had been despairing a little. (You guys help me a lot too, though.

) Sometimes it definitely helps to have a real, tangible person to talk to, though.

So, nutshell brief from my IC yesterday (with our MC who also doubles as my IC. And as a sex therapist

Though we're not using her for that just yet

)

--MC doesn't think i should throw in the towell just yet.
--Sez W needs to have "given up" the A/OM completely before she can make much progress on the MR. She can still be "mourning" the A a bit (though she'll make more progress once she's past that.
--MC thinks W has given up the A, but no way to be sure. Still wants to get W in IC with her to work some of that out.Says is good sign that W felt bad and still feels bad about hurting me in particular.
--MC says both spouses need to be committed to doing the work to save the the MR. Says W shows signs of this, but other things she says raise some doubt (though she was less discouraged by some of things my W said than was I).
--MC said if we want to have any hope of it working out, we absolutely need to come in more than once every 6 weeks. Ideally every other week at a minimum. It's the infrequency of our visits that, in her opinion, have somewhat retarded our progress (especially given that W and I both agree we feel better and more energized and hopeful right after a session) and also make it harder for her to get a good read on exactly "where" my W is in terms of A recovery and commitment to the process.
--She is going to try very hard to get us both to commit to IC interspersed with MC. Says IC will be of particular importance to W.
--Says it is absolutely acceptable for me to tell W I need to know she is committed to not just "working towards saving the MR" but also to "working towards a fully intimate MR".
--Preached the gospel on pursuit and distance, even on the micro level-- alot of kino-type stuff, here: Be cognizant of her mood, initiate light touch at light, happy moments like when laughing, but quickly withdraw. Be charming and if you see her smile or giving you a look, DON'T follow up but pull back some or leave her for a while. "Better to draw her to you than to demand her attention" is one way she put it.
--Said if there was something I suspected, like jewelry from OM, i should absolutely bring it up. Gave me some guidance on how to broach that.
--i am outgoing, a talker, and someone who readily shares my feelings about things and who processes stuff better by talking it out. W is just the opposite (upbringing)-- internalizes alot of stuff, not so eager to talk it out. MC urged me when talking with her, to work harder on listening, validating, coaxing her to share her feelings some, rather than doing all the talking myself.
--She suggested bringing up the wedding ring issue in session... in the context of getting new ones... Asking W "What would it look like for you for us to go get a new set of rings?" which could broach discussion on why she is not currently wearing hers.
--Be careful about trying to direct, change, or control her... she has to choose on her own for this to work.
--She was frank about prospects: Most MC's have "losing records", and we are plagued with both a long history of neglect as well as an A... but she has seen couples more beleaguered than us make it.

Theres more I prolly forgot.

--Also told me to keep taking care of self and maintain a PMA... get out on my own if i needed to. Oh, and try to "Be a little mysterious"... which is pretty much verbatim what my DB coach has told me a couple of times.

Christmas. Ugh.

Being in limbo a bit means i don't know how to handle Christmas gifts.

The me I am now, if i was in a fully functioning MR with this woman, would want to get her something really nice, really special, a pretty piece of jewelry or expensive coat or the like. I've never really bought her a nice, NICE piece of jewelry.

We'd gotten to the point the last few years where we would each say "OOh, i like that" and usually end up buying it for our respective selves and then telling the other they could just wrap it up for the one or the other for Christmas.

And my W has been bummed out around holidays for many, many years now... would like in general and not just in terms of buying her a nice gift to make it a good, happy time, especially with S19 coming home from college.

If she were in the throws of an A, obviously i wouldn't want to participate in family gatherings like holidays pretending all was cool, but... Things are better now and there's no hard evidence implicating W in any kind of A (though her dispostions, as many her correctly note, is not completely "ideal."

Really don't want to do nothing, or play it down, if she is thinking things are going better than i seem to realize they are. Apparently W's bff, at our anniversary back in September, after she and I had talked about whether or not and how we were going to recognized it, said something to the effect of "well, at the stage you all are at right now, he should have something planned" (Weird coming from her, since she was effectively working against my MR for months.) At any rate, Christmas has always been important to me, and I am getting into the spirit, putting up house lights, repairing the broken or out of shape fixtures and appliances and walls and such, anticipating family visiting. It's gonna bum me out to give her the cold shoulder in the midst of all that.

Last few days, after the kiss incident and our MC session, she has been happier. Touching me, leaning in to me some even in public or at parties (her office party was last night), being warmer. But still spells of quiet moodiness. She's definitely better/happier when we are occupied and doing things.

Just not sure how to approach/handle the gift angle. Already know she's getting me a nice pair of leather boots I'd had my eyes on (when we were out at dinner the other night, we walked past the shop and I said "I think i'm gonna go in and buy those boots") and she said "don't do that dummy, it's christmas, santa is coming...

You could book a Christmas cruise for the family. That would get everyone away from electronics and BFFs and it could be a good setting for reconnecting. (And since you're paying, I could chaperone.)

Definitely buy her something nice, but not over the top. For example, a scarf with a Christmas card and short personal note. Let her gift to you outshine your gift to her.

HJ,

Think you are getting excellent advice especially from the former WWs. As a fellow in the same ugly boat, have been following along and wishing the best for you but don�t have much advice to offer. Please, please, please follow the advice of other and get busy creating your own awesome life. You are a starving man so the crumbs your w is giving you look amazing...but remember that they are just crumbs and that you deserve so much more than crumbs.

i highly doubt her gift to him will outshine his gift to her...

Quote:

i highly doubt her gift to him will outshine his gift to her...

Well, I mean that's really the issue, now, isn't it?

I know at this point based on her hints that she's at least getting me a very nice pair of leather boots I've been looking at... think they're $300 a pair. This is a step up from where we were back in September, where we didn't get each other anything for the anniversary and we actually spoke about it before hand... me telling her it didn't necessarily feel right under the circumstances celebrating the anniversary of our "old" marriage, and since we were only a few weeks into her "recovery" even though I thought we should mark the occasion by going out (which we did.) We didn't get each other any gifts, then. Her bff apparently thought I was punk for doing so because "at that point we were at he should've had something planned." Whatever.

On my birthday back in April, she gave me a gift card, but nothing else. I had the kids get her something for her May birthday, but I did not, as she was at that was a pretty tumultuous point and A was still going on.

Now, she seems to be shaking off her usual holiday funk. Last weekend I went out and spent a lot of time getting some new lights and then putting them all around the house so the place would look real nice when S19 got back from college this Friday He told me a few weeks back that he really liked it when he came back from wherever and saw the house all lit up with lights-- which we have done fairly frequently though not every year since he was little. I've also just been in a good mood lately-- feeling the spirit of the season-- whistling, singing, etc. Then, yesterday, W became real energized and started dragging out our boxes of Christmas stuff to put around the house, looking through and bringing out old Christmas photos, and seeming pretty happy about it. So, a bit of a change from the last few years for her when the holidays have been a really down time. She's also had opportunity to drag out our old wedding pics due to a project her sister is doing for their parents for Christmas-- making a photo album for their folks. This didn't seem to bother her and she seemed okay with it, even showing me a couple.

So, anyway, yeah... her head is still, idunno. Not sure as we all know on the "commitment to fixing the MR" thing-- though this is certain to be discussed in counseling this week. (As an aside in this regard--she called me today and wants to set up a double date for us and another couple that she knows this weekend-- was asking me if I knew where any good bands were playing since I have been doing a lot of that in recent months) That said, she seems significantly to somewhat more "into" the season this year, including in terms of gift giving. I just want to make sure I am giving that the appropriate level of attention from my end under the circumstances.

And more color on W's getting "into the spirit"-- don't know if it had any impact but I am assuming it might have, but MC on Wednesday had made it a point to think positive and go into things "thinking they will work out" rather than "thinking that they will fail or suck", because if you do the latter, chances are they will "fail or suck." That in response to W's worries about WON we would ever be able to restore any kind of intimate R, as well as to her annual holiday blues.

For my part, I've just been trying to enjoy myself as much as possible wherever possible.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Quote:

i highly doubt her gift to him will outshine his gift to her...

yes... it can be seen as a step up in the external sense... i hope your counseling goes well... i hope you are able to glean something concrete regarding your circumstances...

--artista

Have not heard from you all week Jim. Hope you are doing okay. I know you were sort of at another crossroads last week. Hopefully you'll update soon!

HJ, thanks for the kind post. I'm sorry it took so long for me to get back to you.

One of the hardest things is trying to make sense of what is going on when the universe seems to be falling apart. I just posted something on my thread in the 'surviving the big D' section you are feel to explore.

First though I'll copy my post about the card game I referenced. Keep posting.

Quote:

It reminds me of the card game I've posted a few times, originally for my old buddy Pyrite:

I read your post this morning but had to work all day and then had kid time tonight, this was my first chance to get back to you. I really want to share a model that I think will help you out.

There were two people, you and your W. Let's pretend there's a game being played. You have 10 cards you can choose from, A low, 10 high. Each time either of you interact with each other you have to decide to play a card symbolizing how you treat each other. A 10 means you choose to be extremely loving, selfless, generous, noble, and operate from your highest spiritual self. A 5 means you're having an average day, you're on auto pilot, you may do some things for your mate but aren't really engaged. A 3 is negative, critical, impatient. Below that is the red zone where it becomes destructive, controlling, and potentially abusive.

In the beginning each of you plays a 10 card. You both feel good about the love you're feeling, and feel good about the love you're getting. Somehow that's hard to maintain with life getting in the way. Eventually you notice the cards she's playing are 5s and 6s. This is frustrating. You came to really like 10s. In fact, when she was playing 10 cards you felt really good. When she plays 5s and 6s you feel dissatisfied. You get frustrated that she won't play the 10s like she used to.

Disappointment leads to frustration. Frustration leads to hurt. Hurt leads to anger. Anger that isn't addressed builds into resentment. Next thing you know, you don't feel loving. You don't feel like playing 10s much either. In fact, you start to resent even having to play 5s and 6s yourself. It's not fair! Why should she get everything she wants and needs and for her to neglect you with a series of 5s? You can't be happy with 5s, and you would be with 10s, so really it's her failure to do her job that is the cause for your unhappiness. You start to play lower and lower cards. Partly because you are so resentful you can't stand the thought of giving her what she wants while you're not getting what you want. Partly to try to "get her attention", or show her that something is wrong. And partly because you just don't have the loving feelings that generate bigger loving numbers.

You NEED big numbers to be happy. She's failing. You must force her to play bigger numbers. There's only one strategy left. Time to play some 2s and A's. Put the hammer down. Make it clear this is unacceptable. Either you give me what I want and deserve or I will make things absolutely unbearable. Verbal abuse. Withholding affection. Critical comments. Bullying. Whatever.

***OK, STOP THE GAME A MINUTE***

I described how it felt to play this game. If someone asked "what type of guy are you, are you the kind of guy that plays A's or 10's or what?", you'd respond "I'm a GREAT guy, I'll play 10s or at least pretty big cards most of the time". If someone asked "why did you play so many A's and 2's the last couple of years? That looked borderline abusive", you'd reply "WHOA! That's NOT ME. That's not who I am! I only played those cards because SHE left me no choice! She was playing 3's and 4's and not loving me the way I need to be loved! If she had done HER JOB right I would've been HAPPY to respond with 7s, 9s, and a 10 now and then!"

So the whole issue in your mind was the way she treated you, and how it caused you to respond. You don't identify with you behavior because you see it as a reflection of her failure.

BUT THERE ARE SOME TRUTHS
-YOU ARE THE CARDS YOU CHOOSE TO PLAY. If you play A's and 2's, you are abusive. Doesn't matter why. If you kill someone you're a murderer. If you rob a bank you're a bank robber. And when you choose to treat someone poorly, then you are a BAD H. PERIOD.

-IT'S NOT HER JOB TO PLAY 10S AND MAKE YOU HAPPY. Yes, 10s feel great. It's a nice treat in life to experience. But that's not life. Life isn't a series of sexual adventures, passionate date nights, back rubs, and sharing poetry. Why? I don't know. We build a tolerance to things and quickly expect them and take them for granted. Heck, even if she kept playing 10s they would start to feel like 7s to you quickly as you got used to it. Eventually people get to a level they can maintain (such as 5s through 8s with an occasional 10) and it starts to feel like a disappointment. AND IF YOU USED THE 10S TO MAKE YOURSELF FEEL GOOD ABOUT YOUR LIFE YOU WILL SUDDENLY FEEL DISCONTENT AND FEEL YOUR PARTNER IS TO BLAME. SHE'S NOT. You have to be happy on your own, and take what you get as a bonus.

-ONLY YOU GET TO DECIDE WHAT CARDS YOU PLAY. It doesn't matter if she plays 10s or 1s. *YOU* decide each day what type of person you are, how you want to respond. It's YOUR choice, not hers. She can play a 3 and you can STILL CHOOSE to respond with a 10.

Quick update, more later.

Weird, eventful week. Had MC on Wednesday. Talked some about commitment to the process.W says she is, and she's trying, but intimacy piece is hard. W says when she is out with me, she often thinks/feels "this is fun, I like this, I like him, I can go home and give him a kiss (or more) but then when she gets home she starts feeling weird/reluctant/hesitant and the barriers go up. MC wondwring if there are "ghosts" for us in the house. She did touch ME in passing today. Very warmly in kind of a caressing way... like she hasn't done in a loooong time. Kind of took me aback. I also spoke about being kind of weirded out that I felt completely unattracted to her for a stretch after the kiss incident LW.

W herself set up double date with another couple for Friday... my plan had been to back off a bit and lay low. Was a very fun evening, she receptive to my arm around her, and to being hugged. BUT... she has slept downstairs on couch now 4 of past 6 nights. She said "nothings wrong" this morn when she came up... "just fell asleep and couldn't get up" but... tonight she's down there again. Fell asleep watching tv. I asked if she was coming up and she said "yes, in a minute" in very drowsy voice, but never made it up.

Everyone seems in holiday spirit, including W, with S19 home from college. W happier about holidays than I have seen in a long time, but...

She's become funny about church last few,weeks. Finding excyses not to go or goes alone. Also not taking communion.

Interesting convo with her friend and coworker at a work party. Not sure,how much stock to put as I know this person did cover for her once being out of office with OM... but don't know for sure if she knew W was with OM. Anyhoo, this friend said W is really trying, she sees all these changes in me but some of it is,really weird for her, especially my desire,for intimacy because I didn't want that for so long. Said W was "shocked" I actually kissed her. She didn't think I would. Also said she has several times mentioned IC because she is so "screwed up" but does not know WON to ho to MC (who knows our case) or to find someone else but... she def feels like she needs to talk on her own, just can't quite pull ttigger.
U

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Also not taking communion.

Whoa! This is a big sign of something in my eyes. Has she ever not accepted communion in the past?

in my opinion, nothing is different... she is still not committed... she is still using the same vague vocabulary... she is maintaining... i am telling you, i know the spiel... mis dos centavos...

--artista

Quote:

Whoa! This is a big sign of something in my eyes. Has she ever not accepted communion in the past?

Holder, sorry, I typed that entire post on my phone, very late, inartfully worded and I kept falling asleep. She actually has not been taking communion for several months now... the entire span of time since she started her A, I think. Prior to that, she had a pretty liberal view of when you could partake, so she either a) realizes she's really effed up or b) is just on rebellion against her faith.

She hasn't been to confession at all this year AFAIK, so no way to gauge WON she is in an ongoing/continuing sinful R or if it is just the continusing overhang from a now-ended EMA.

Quote:

she is maintaining

Hi artista, thanks. I am not sure I take your meaning, here... Do you mean to say you think she is maintaining the affair? If so, what sorts of specific things do you think I should be on the lookout for? Definitive things, I mean, cuz right now I got nothing, BUT... I absolutely do NOT intend to be played the fool again. If she is still contacting OM I want to KNOW and cut the frigging cord. But, like I said, the two occasions I might normally have had reason to suspect something in the past couple of months I spot checked her and nothing going on... unless she is being extremely diligent and careful which is not at all her M.O. and which I do not think she would be capable of for more than a couple of weeks, tops. But... then again, I never thought she'd cheat in the first place. Anything's possible. Just wondering if your own experience might have any insight into what I should be on the lookout for.

FWIW, my own opinion is that I think it's more likely that she is not still in the original A with OM but ratheris still in some general state of "rebellion" which could and perhaps probably will lead to "OM2", etc. at some point in the future. Some of things she says, even to me, have this flavor to them-- "I think I'd have a really hard time living during that era because a lot of things they thought was the "proper" way to behave are not the way I want to behave"; All her talk about not wanting to always do what she's "supposed" to do (MC said "you have a choice, why not do something because you "choose" to rather than because you are "supposed to", to which W replied "yeah, but then I'd just be "choosing" to do it because I was supposed to"); Her uneasiness, almost defensiveness, in church, which was and is obviously a big "you should behave in a certain way" institution. This, of course, all consistent with the idea that she has a lot of issues of her own to work out (her idea that she is "all effed up") and that she really should be undergoing IC if our MR is to have any hope of reconciling.

The only thing that has softened a bit with her is the way she talks to friends (or at least this friend from work who is also friendly and fairly open/frank with me) about me and about the MR. In the midst of the A and early on when she was trying in fits and starts to end it (assuming she did), she had a lot of negative things to say about me, repeatedly said "the marriage has been over for a long time, even before OM", and couldn't stand to touch me or be touched me and couldn't see us together. Now, apparently, she speaks to friends very kindly of me, says she feels guilty for doing things (like encouraging my kiss) that hurt me or saying things in MC that she knows hurt me or are hard to hear, says she would like to be able to get back to a level of intimacy with me but is "afraid that she wont be able to", and is somewhat receptive to touch and somewhat more willing to be touched.

Is that "good enough?" I don't know... Not good enough now, certainly, to have the kind of MR I want, but... could it move in that direction from here? I don't know. I tend to think not without her working through her own issues/rebellion first, though. And not sure what gets us there. Maybe like you or someone else posted earlier that after Christmas I just gotta say "look, this isn't headed in the direction I want to go or towards the kind of relationship I need to have with you. I am attracted to you and I am not going to live in a sexless, low-to-no-intimacy marriage. If you cant commit to working towards that kind of relationship, and if you cant get into counseling for yourself and for your own issues as our MC has advised, I'm going to have to step back from the MC and the "working on the MR" effort."

Any other ideas on what behaviors I should expect from her or words I would want to hear from her to be able to believe that she is committed to a degree necessary to give us a realistic shot at success in reconciling?

Sandi recently said the #1 trait a WW will show when she wants to recon is being humble.

Must admit I would find it hard to distinguish between being humble and being overly nice through guilt. Did Sandi go into much detail here (can't remember the actual posting)? You're doing great BTW!

when i said she is maintaining, i meant that she is maintaining you... maintaining her relationship with you... there is no real progress... even if it seems like there may be some movement forward, in my opinion, there isn't... she likes hanging out with you, it's fun... she's "trying." all non-committal... but enough to maintain things with you...

she is not coming to bed... she has "reasons,"--really, she has excuses... that is actually a step backward, imo...

you mentioned some different behavior in the last few weeks--excuses to not go to church, or to go alone... not taking communion.. but when Holding questions you about her avoiding communion, because he sees it as something telling, you back pedal and kind of brush it off as though it really isn't that big of a deal, it really isn't something new... you do this a lot...

church, sleeping on the couch, the bracelet and earrings on the day she went to meet friend--i see those as signs of the affair continuing...

her touching you--temp check... and one more way to help her maintain things with you... i hope i am wrong... but i don't think that i am...

i do think you should follow through with this: I just gotta say "look, this isn't headed in the direction I want to go or towards the kind of relationship I need to have with you. I am attracted to you and I am not going to live in a sexless, low-to-no-intimacy marriage. If you cant commit to working towards that kind of relationship, and if you cant get into counseling for yourself and for your own issues as our MC has advised, I'm going to have to step back from the MC and the "working on the MR" effort."

you need to do it because it's honest... that is how you honestly feel and what you honestly believe... she ought to know that... otherwise, you two are simply maintaining... and you're not maintaining a nice healthy marriage, you are maintaining limbo...

mis dos centavos--

artista

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Any other ideas on what behaviors I should expect from her or words I would want to hear from her to be able to believe that she is committed to a degree necessary to give us a realistic shot at success in reconciling?

when i approached my husband about reconciliation, i did it on my own... he did not persuade me... he did not talk with me about it... we had been physically separated for two + years... i called him, i came to him... and i asked him if he would consider reconciliation... he thought i was going to tell him i was ready to go through with divorce... i didn't come to him as though i deserved anything from him... i didn't play with words... i didn't leave loop holes... i didn't leave any ways out... and he would not have accepted anything less from me... there was no wiggle room... if you offer your wife any wiggle room, she will take it... if she comes to you with wiggle room (non-committal language) she is not sincere...

Quote:

The most deceitful person in the world can act overly nice. Consider words that are totally opposite of humility, and you'll be describing a WW, in part. For example........arrogance, egoism, bold, daring, self-importance, pride, brash......and many more.

Let's say I had treated you as horrible as anyone could treat another human being. One day something happens that puts my life in serious danger. Then who comes along just in time to save me? You do. When I see my life depends upon your decision to save me.........and especially, if it should put your own life at risk.......can you imagine the feelings that might rush into my heart? Deep remorse? For sure! And a knowledge of how much I do not deserve to be save by the person I treated so horribly. So, being the person that you are.....you do save my life. The thankfulness and relief I feel, is beyond words. There is no "self-importance" in this act. There is no sense of entitlement, or false pride. My heart is completely humbled by who/what I have been.......and who/what you are!

I don't know if this is a good anology, but I have to leave. I'll try to finish later.

Originally Posted By: CW2017

overly nice through guilt is all about that person... what's-in-it-for-me attitude... it's affected... not genuine... humbleness asks for nothing in return... expects nothing... you cannot fake it... that's why it's important to take time before believing words and even actions... because a faker can only fake for so long... a faker will fake until he/she gets what he/she wants (temp check)...

btw, CW2017--you are doing something my husband did during the early stages of my A... he knew for months before he confronted me... that was a big mistake... if he had confronted me early on, i would not have become so engrossed in the A... by the time he confronted me, i was fully in it... much too deep... by then it had become a compulsion... i know this isn't your thread, so i will stop here...

--artista

Hi Artista, thanks for the input. Two things:

Quote:

he knew for months before he confronted me... that was a big mistake... if he had confronted me early on, i would not have become so engrossed in the A... by the time he confronted me, i was fully in it... much too deep... by then it had become a compulsion...

I dont mind other people's sitch's bleeding over into my threads... its just another way we can learn from each other. I will throw my two cents in here: I made this VERY same mistake. I was aware of the A for a long time... almost four months... before i acted to "put my foot down" (and even then did a pretty crappy job of it at first). I allowed myself, in my confused, devastated, and weakened state, to rely on a friend who, while he loved me like brother, gave me very bad advice, advice which i took and which basically amounted to allowing my W to continue in her EA without objection. From everything i have since learned from multiple sources/places, that time allowed what was at the time a VERY early stage EA... perhaps only a strong friendship that was just starting to cross the line from my W's standpoint... to grow and morph into a full-fledged obsession. In January at BD it was definitively NOT a PA, and much more friendly and chatty than hot and passionate. By the time i collected my wits, regained my self-confidence, etc., my wife's talks with OM had gone from "I do kind of like you, but even if we ever got together it couldn't be for a very long time from now" with no explicit talk of sex to a tear-filled "I just want to jump on you and run away with you" as well as fairly explicit discussion of what they both enjoyed sexually and could do to each other. There was a span of time, there, a few weeks maybe after BD, where she distanced herself from OM and where, had i been firm at all about it, i probably could have ended the A. Then, something happened. Don't know exactly what. A party or night out with that crowd, involving her BFF, and the candle was re-lit.

None of that is to say, of course, that ending the A at that point would have been a magical elixar to fix my MR. Far from it. At that point my GAL's and 180s had scarcely started to kick in. Not even sure W and I were considered friends at that point. BUT... I gotta think it still might have created an opening to start working from firmer ground. Now, she has a "love affair" to get over... if she ever does. Not honestly sure I am prepared to wait around for two years, Artista, as your H did for you. I'll be 52 in April, have a resurgent libido (for a number of reasons, including medical) and haven't had sex in a LONG time.

Quote:

but when Holding questions you about her avoiding communion, because he sees it as something telling, you back pedal and kind of brush it off as though it really isn't that big of a deal, it really isn't something new... you do this a lot...

I appreciate your insight, but... This is something i have intimated before and i am going to take a stand on it because it is important to me and something that really, really gets under my skin at times: Reputations are often earned and hard to change or shake, BUT... very few things annoy me more than reputational bias. I had a friend from college who used to do this endlessly to me-- i had a well-earned reputation as a mooch and freeloader in my late teens through early college but changed when I realized i was endangering and even losing friendships as a result-- but he would trot it out in ANY situation where something was missing or the tab at the bar was short: "Must have been hoosjim, he always does that". INFURIATES me.

So, do i have a well-earned reputation here for "backtracking", even "revisionism" WRT my wife's actions? Perhaps. I can certainly go back and see multiple places where i have done this. But please please please PLEASE try to read my posts in their entirety, and in the context of the surrounding posts, before lobbing that grenade at me, Okay? Have i done that in the past? Yes. Did i do it here? Absolutely not, and I am going to repeat something i posted earlier here and which i consider a bedrock principle and which I will not abandon: Facts and context both matter, and I have a fairly low tolerance for sloppy interpretation or relation of either or both... not to the point of attacking other posters, but definitely to the point of correcting misperceptions.

In this case, THAT's what was going on in my post. The context in which I related her skipping communion very much made it appear that it was a "lately" thing, if you read that post. In fact, i don't think that there is any other way you can take what i posted. Holder, quite reasonably in that context, said that that "This is a big sign of something in my eyes. Has she ever not accepted communion in the past?" My response in no way indicated that i though that it was not a big deal, in fact I believe i said that she must realize that "She really effed up" or else was in rebillion against her faith. Rather, i indicated that that was nothing NEW... that she had been skipping communion since at least the time of BD, and possibly before and, therefore, was not necessarily indicative of anything "new" going on. Not sure if you're catholic or familiar with the faith, but if she has sinned sufficiently she can't go back and take communion until she has had a valid "confession" with a priest... which I noted she also had not done-- also important context for Holding, who apparently is familiar with the faith as well. (And good luck with knowing when she goes to confession for the A-- she got pregnant at 18, the first time she ever had sex, and underwent an abortion in college and it took her I think she said almost three years to get up the courage to go to confession, so reluctant was she to face that guilt.)

So, in sum,if i am being revisionist or "backtracking", by all means call me on it. In this case, the "new" information is that she has been skipping mass more than in the past and appears uncomfortable in church (whether from guilt or from the discomfort of having to hug me during the sign of peace or from increasing frustration with our tourretic son-- which has always stressed her out in church-- is unknown). The skipping communion, which i led Holding to believe was a current phenomenon, and something new to be considered, is neither new nor discounted in my head. I am pretty much 100% sure the A and her failure to go to confession for it is the reason she hasn't been going... but I have "known" that for months, now.

I hope I'm being clear here. Just... don't pull the "backtracking" or "revisionist" card on me when i am merely correcting facts or clear misconceptions.

I don't understand.

Jim,

I'm lost on your last post. Are you really trying to correct people about your W taking communion? You seem frustrated. I haven't seen you so defensive.

You have defended your W actions but Jim, I think you know what Artista was trying to tell you and it wasn't just about no communion. She was pointing out your defensiveness. And I must tell if it shows up here, how do your W perceive it. You ask for help then try to defend all kind actions your W does and seem to get offended by advice given.

But, no matter what we are here for you.

We all want to see you happy! We all want what you want to see you enjoy some sex! You deserve it.

Quote:

I haven't seen you so defensive.

ARRRGGGHHH! (Yes, I actually screamed.) I hate being called "defensive". It is, IMHO, about the most passive-aggressive manner in which you can characterize someone, basically implying "youre wrong and you know it" or "you have something to hide." Or, perhaps, you just like throwing the term "defensive" around because you have nothing substantive to say to bolster your own position. (Yes, yes, I am in fact a lawyer, by both training and avocation

) And, other than that very brief correction of MY OWN mis-statement(and this is not subject to any kind of dispute... it was a misstatement... the facts are the facts are the facts) I didn't see anything in my post even remotely defensive and, given what i was trying to say in those couple of sentences, I think it's a pretty fair stretch to say that even THAT was being defensive.

And i thought that that was a pretty non-frustrated sounding post. Artista has not been around the forums all that long, does not know my history, and I am really trying to be a "kinder and gentler" hoosjim. I was really not all that frustrated, at least not specifically at her.

And i wasn't trying to correct ANYBODY but myself, okay? The fact of my wife taking or not taking communion and her history thereof, as well as the time frame within which my wife was or was not taking communion is VERY pertinent information, as Holding correctly noted. As such, for me to imply-- STRONGLY imply, if you look at my original post-- that that was a recent phenomenon-- is a gross mistatement of the pertinent facts (upon which Holding relied) which needed to be corrected. That is all. I was not trying to paint my wife as a saint or anything, just trying to make sure that we are all reading from the same sheet of music (and that the notes are the correct notes, if you take my meaning. Please read and re-read my post if necessary

Maybe im making this too complicated:

1) My wife cheated on me.
2) My wife is Catholic
3) My wife stopped taking communion shortly after she cheated on me (about 11 months ago)
4) I stated that my wife only very recently had stopped taking communion.
5) What I stated in "4" was inaccurate.
6) I don't like sloppy accounts of the facts, and I gave a very sloppy account of the facts.

That's it. That's all i meant to say about that otherwise relatively inconsequential event (my misstatement, not my wife's practitioning or lack thereof of her faith).

That, and please don't brand me as a revisionist, or defensive, or backtracking EVERY time i correct the factual record. Because that's not always what i'm doing. And recently more often than not Its not what im doing.

And I am not angry at any particular person, nor am i even really "angry"... just asking for some consideration of "the way i like things". which is, to say, factually sound. Even "religiously" so.

Okay, so I re-read my post to Artista, and it does sound more frustrated than I intended. I hate the internet and texting and email and message boards that deprive you of inflection and tone and body language... Had I been speaking it to her it would have sounded much less frustrated.

So, Artista, I apologize for my tone-- I could have done more to soften the tone of the post for sure. I just was trying to post a plea to not knee-jerk assume I am backtracking/revisionism-ing/defending-my-wife... Sometimes i am genuinely just trying to correct factual misconceptions or statements (and this time an actual mis-statement by me.)

JoeJoe... i did mean to scream at you. I do hate being called "defensive."

Okay, so I'm sorry to you, too...

Oh, so now she's come upstairs. After appearing to be out for the count on downstairs sofa again.

I'm willing to bet, though, that it's only because I said something about it this time...

Jim,

Its ok. Ive been screamed at plenty of times I'm a soldier.

I just can't frikking do this anymore.

After being off here for a week, rhinking things are sounding like maybe they were going a little better, last night my mind just started spinning like it hadn't in a while. Awake til almost 3.

Why my W's reconnection with bff after a bit of a layoff? Why is she all of a sudden sleeping on couch 4 of last 6 nights? She's still talking about rebelliousness. And where did this silver necklace she's wearing come from. It showed up about two weeks ago? About the exact same time she went for dinner and a couple drinks with bff. Is it normal for a woman to wear a necklace everywhere, even to bed, for two straight weeks? Why did she stop at Starbucks on way to work yesterday, and what and with who was her conference call with bff for 20 mins in car yesterday... a day after she'd had a two hour brunch supposedly with bff? (Yes, I started spinning and checked phone records.)

I just can't go into this cycle again. It's tearing me up.

I'm gonna bring all this up at MC tomortow. And the "all in" and we're working towards sex or we're not working at all bit.

It's just too hard.

Almost forgot. She also went out in that same time frsme, two weeks ago, just a coupla days after having dinner with vff, without her phone gor a couple of hours. I thought it odd at the time-- who goes anywhere without their phone these days, especially her... and she knows the phone can be tracked.

And, she got all dolled up Sunday, after sleeping on sofa after our night out to go have brunch with bff. And she wore the suspicious earrings.

Dammit, have I been just being played the fool again? For crying out loud this [censored].

hoosjim,

So you're a gullible defensive mooch. We still love you.

Oh Jim, I am sorry you are struggling so much. I read the backtracking just like Arista did and the defensiveness just like Joe did. I think you might be having some misdirected emotions right now, and the people here get it.

Personally, I am less worried about OM than I am about her resistance to doing what she is "supposed" to be doing. Her heart and mind is elsewhere and I don't think it has to do with OM or any guy for that matter, including you. She has this great desire to do her own thing without guilt or consequence. Her heart is not rebuilding the M right now. I think she is keeping it status quo and putting on appearances of trying so she could say that she did so she can do what she wants without guilt.

It certainly is a rock in a hard place. I really don't think it has much to do with you at all right now. But I also don't see this going anywhere unless she is left to do what she feels she needs to do. I feel like that time is going to come sooner or later. I do think you guys would seriously benefit from time apart, but I don't know how that would work or look to you.

You are trying really hard to help her get to a place you need her to be, but if she isn't in it, you are the one who is going to suffer.

Say, for the sake of argument OM never happened. She just decided to check out and told you she wanted a divorce. HOw would your sitch be looking to you right now?

Quote:

Say, for the sake of argument OM never happened. She just decided to check out and told you she wanted a divorce. HOw would your sitch be looking to you right now?

Probably worse. Even before BD I was starting to have suspicions... the frequent going out, dressing herself up, etc etc. I don't think I'd be able to bring myself to believe she was "just checking out".

At any rate, while it made it somewhat worse, and even more so that it was with a friend, it wasn't just the A that got me spooled up and woken up... it was the realization I was actually going to lose her. But, given the way my mind works I'd prolly still be spinning scenarios, just now about every other man out there instead of just OM.

I certainly don't have anything to add here. Artista, Ginger, Sandi et al. have all laid it out for you.

All I am going to say is that you have shown incredible patience through this recent bout of rebelliousness from her.

The necklace, leaving the phone, getting dolled up and going out, the earrings - I am sorry man, but all of this adds up to at least her trying to maintain appearances and at worst, she's with OM.

I think it's time to throw down the gauntlet. You've given her patience and time and everything, but now it's time for tough tough barbed wire love. Basically, either she's 'in' or 'out'. And if she's 'out', I would highly highly suggest you physically separate. You need to take back control and bring out your own self-respect.

Sorry man! I was hoping that all those things were one-off, but the list keeps growing and that's not good.

You looked at it in a different context. I mean, how would feel about the R between the two of you. You are so worried about OM or any OM and that is not the biggest problem here at all, actually. It's a symptom of a problem. The problem is a lot bigger than any OM right now. It's within her and desires for a responsibility free life where she gets to do what she wants without repercussion and guilt. She didn't just go wayward because she was attracted to this guy and not you.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

I'm gonna bring all this up at MC tomortow. And the "all in" and we're working towards sex or we're not working at all bit.

It's just too hard.

Jim,

This is you trying to fix it yourself, and doesn't get you anywhere. unless she says "NO, I'm done", you will still be in the same place. You cannot do anything to get her where you want her to be, she needs to do it.

Your spinning, I would recommend you take some time to level out again, then decide on what you want and how you want to proceed. Making decisions or moves while your spinning is generally not a good idea.

Quote:

I mean, how would feel about the R between the two of you. You are so worried about OM or any OM and that is not the biggest problem here at all, actually. It's a symptom of a problem. The problem is a lot bigger than any OM right now. It's within her and desires for a responsibility free life where she gets to do what she wants without repercussion and guilt. She didn't just go wayward because she was attracted to this guy and not you.

In a complete OM-free vacuum? Again, I'd probably feel not much different. Okay, maybe some different, and probably to the good side. I mean, she's right-- in many ways things have never been better between us. We talk, we laugh, we go out and have fun, we don't fight-- can't remember the last time we had an honest to goodness fight, just the occasional differing point of view on one thing or another but nothing that has caused discord or that we haven't worked out. She's not doing anything overtly disrespectful or rebellious to me (unless either of those items of jewelry she wears is from OM, but I have no way of knowing and they could just as easily be purchases she's made-- she's always buying herself pretty little accessories). Only problem, though its a big one, is the near absence of any intimacy or romance. She's not getting that "Spark" she wants, and, honestly, neither am I, though I love her and am physically attracted to her. I actually went through a couple of days... the time immediately following the "kiss incident"... where I was kind of whigged out and very empty feeling because, well, for that stretch I was just NOT attracted to her. The unreturned kiss and how that played out was just a really big turn-off.

At any rate, on-balance, ex-OM, I would prolly feel somewhat better about both the relationship itself in a vacuum as well as about our prospects of reconciling. However, the sex-free marriage would still be a showstopper for me. It would hurt a little less to be "cut off" from that, not having to contemplate that she was willing to do that with someone else, BUT... at 51 I am not willing or prepared to have no more sex and no more of the emotional intimacy that typically goes along with that for the rest of my life.

It really seems like she is not going to be ready for a marriage, to anyone I would say, until she gets into IC or does whatever else it is she has to do to break her rebelliousness and waywardness. And that just seems pretty unlikely to happen with her bff continuously preaching to her the benefits of the wayward lifestyle. It makes me sick.

Sorry I caused all the problems asking about communion. I guess I'll keep my follow-up question about the communion wine to myself.

(And yes, I am Catholic)

But seriously, Jim, the signs of late do seem to be pointing in a suspicious direction. Good luck!

Quote:

This is you trying to fix it yourself, and doesn't get you anywhere. unless she says "NO, I'm done", you will still be in the same place. You cannot do anything to get her where you want her to be, she needs to do it.

Idunno, I think there's actually quite a bit I can do. I can refuse to live in a sham marriage. I can refuse to participate in sham marriage counseling.

Quote:

Sorry I caused all the problems asking about communion. I guess I'll keep my follow-up question about the communion wine to myself. smile

No, no problem, really. I was the one who was a bit imprecise in how I worded that whole thing.

But you're right: The very first time I went to Church with her following BD in January and saw that she didn't take communion I was thinking to myself: "It's because of the affair". I have continued to be on the lookout for her to go to confession and start taking communion again, because I think that would be a REALLY good sign, and not just from the standpoint of "The A is dead", but also from the standpoint of "she's not rebelling against her faith anymore." But, obviously, that's a place she's got to get herself to.

The other thing I was on the lookout for was her taking down her FB front page pic of the flowers OM sent her, which, to me, had been a big sign of her waywardness and rebelliousness--even though she did not know that I strongly suspected the flowers were from OM (though she has since confirmed they were). She did take that down in August, replacing it with a picture of our two boys, which I considered a good sign. OTOH, I should probably ask her why she did NOT take them down sooner (she had supposedly committed to the MC and to no-contacting OM approximately three weeks prior to that), but that and asking about the jewelry was something that completely slipped my mind for some reason at that time.

But Sandi2 is right-- it's actions more than words. Which is why I think communion an confession would be a really big deal for her, and for us.

HJ....before my W moved out she was going out all the time hanging with her teacher friends. Getting drunk, not being able to drive home, showing no interest at all in being home and spending time with the family. It felt like the more she did it the more addicted she got. She started sleeping in the other room and looking back was just going through the motions.

I think during that time the resentment started to build and then it led to BD. Then IMO she got scared and said she didn't want a D but also didn't want to go to MC. That lasted for about 1 to 2 weeks and then she went out on a night when my D's had friends over for a sleepover. She was only supposed to be gone for about 2 hours and come home. That 2 hours turned into 4 and she showed up wasted at the house with 4 little girls running around. At that moment I knew it was over, she told me she wanted to be selfish and she didn't care. She wants to do what she wants to do and doesn't care what anyone thinks.

She was dressing up, hitting the gym, going tanning, fake eyelashes, new bathing suit etc. etc. I can tell you from my experience there was nothing I could do to stop the train. She suggested living as roommates and staying together for the kids in a sexless marriage which I told her I didn't want. She also could not give me a reason why she felt the way she felt. Early on when I was grilling her over it she even made a comment that don't you notice I have to drink a beer to even have sex with you. Ouch that stung a little. The thing is that I am an attractive guy but for whatever reason her spidey senses where not digging what I was laying down.

My W has surrounded herself with enablers much like your W has that she can go out with, party and do whatever they want. Not having our children 50% of the time, in her eyes, is the reward.

Unfortunately you have some tough decisions to make as I would agree she is just going through the motions and you are only getting whatever scraps she leaves behind. If my W would have stayed in the home and we did what you are trying to do I would been your same shoes.

Best of luck to you!

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Quote:

Idunno, I think there's actually quite a bit I can do. I can refuse to live in a sham marriage. I can refuse to participate in sham marriage counseling.

I still don't think you are getting it.. You telling her in M counseling that you need ..., is you trying to convince her to do something.

You not living in a sham marriage, or refuse in participating in M counseling, are actions that you can take. They don't require talking to her about it. Stop thinking that you have to run every decision by her first, decide what YOU want and act on that, without a discussion with her.

But I still recommend you stop spinning before you do anything.

Idunno. I'm just... last night was as discouraged as I have been in a while. I mean, I am almost a year into this thing and sometimes I think I'm no closer to a resolution than I was in January.

hoosjim,

You know the common definition of insanity so I won't repeat it. The DR version of that is "cheese-less tunnel." What you've been doing clearly isn't working so it's a good time to switch things up.

Move forward with your life as you'd like it and let her decide to come along for the ride (or not). Give up the fight and go on your own journey and experience life to the fullest.

Quote:

she told me she wanted to be selfish and she didn't care. She wants to do what she wants to do and doesn't care what anyone thinks.

Just for anyone who stumbles onto this subject..........

When the core of her waywardness is totally selfishness, and she has the attitude of "to hell with anyone else", I think the H who continues a relationship....hoping she'll "snap out of it", is actually enabling her. A woman of this wayward nature must reap the consequences of that selfishness. People with this level of selfishness, are not going to snap out of it. Forget snapping out of it. , as if suddenly coming to her senses. They have to learn. Don't we have to teach children not to be selfish? She has to learn that there is a heavy price tag for chunking how others feel, in the name of self indulgence. Even after being convinced, there is no promise she will change what's in her heart. It is a choice. She wants what she wants......and she simply doesn't care. That sums it up. She and has no value for anyone else.

Although I am responding to what Joseph said, I am referring to any person who fits the description he gave about his W. It's tragic the suffering that comes from the hands of just one individual with this level of selfishness.

Life is tough man, you're doing your best to save your M, and it's disheartening to not see the R not move forward. For now, maybe you should take a break, focus on the your sons and the holidays and give yourself a break from the worry and wonder.

Sandi, what is it that turns a previously good woman's heart that way? Based on my own sitch, I would be tempted to say neglect or the like. Except that I've seen accounts of several cases on here where, supposedly, everything in the marriage was fine, and you read elsewhere about wives going wayward Wyland marriages that to all outward appearances are just fine.

Quote:

Sandi, what is it that turns a previously good woman's heart that way?

The key words in your question are "previously good". These are the women I have hope in turning back to their previous moral & spiritual values. It does sound as if your W is dealing with spiritual rebellion. I've seen it go either way. If the person truly believed in their particular religion, and it wasn't just going through some ritual motions......then naturally, there is hope that they will be spiritually convicted and turn back. That's something she has to work out with God. Right now, she is like a rellious child and doesn't want to hear God's message. Perhaps she was being defiant by not taking communion, or maybe she was being honest.....or both. But it shows she is struggling with two wills, and she doesn't like the "Thou shalt not" commandments at the moment.

Let me comment once more on the selfishly driven WW. The woman who has been a spoiled, selfish brat all her life.......taking what she wants at the expense of others.......is less likely to ever change, without some life altering experience. When I was young, I believed love would change people like this, but now.....I'm not as naive. I've seen selfish people fall in love and seem to change for a very brief time, but their selfishness doesn't stay dormant for long. This WW will usually b'tch at her H, hammering him down and demanding to have her way. She's always had a mean streak in her, b/c of her sense of entitlement......and she doesn't care what others think. She may keep it hidden from the guy she wants to marry, but after the wedding it starts showing up. It's very unattractive!

The woman who does not have that self centeredness and seemly has a good heart.......IMHO, reacts from her MR that has left her feeling empty and emotionally dead. She longs for romantic intimacy, tenderness, fun, etc. with her H. Going without for a long time may cause her to seek out novels or movies that feed an unmet desire in her heart. If she doesn't receive the things she desires from her H and their MR, she will often have an ongoing fantasy of how her life might be with someone else. And this can lead her into a vulnerable emotional state.

She may be dealing with several issues about herself, which adds to her feelings of unhappiness and lack of personal fulfillment. Resentment toward her H and their situation turn to bitterness, anger/rage, and all those negative traits LBH's know so well. These feelings breed disrespect for her H, and how much she shows it......will vary from woman to woman. At some point, she begins to rebel. It may start with small acts of defiance and go on to something that will destroy the M.

There may be a tipping point that leads some WW's to cross the line to have an A with another man. Some women may have a revenge A, or an exit A. IMHO, I think the majority of stories on the board are about women who have dealt with personal loneliness, lack of romantic intimacy and other unmet needs for a long time. They don't actually "plan" to become a WW, but they have developed a WW mindset. Therefore, they continue to push the boundaries and become a little more daring in tempting whatever situation they find themselves at that moment. They feel an excitement, a thrill that tells them they aren't completely dead after all. They are hooked and want more. They are starved for that kind of attention or excitement......whatever it is.

It is usually so contrary (for these women) with who they always were........that they become very defensive, trying to justify their actions. They may think they have spent their life doing what someone else wanted, or giving their time raising kids, and now it's her time. Selfishness seems to fuel her actions. Once she gets a taste of the "thrill", and feeling "alive", she is hooked and that addiction is the driving force. It's as if she's been without food & water for years......and felt she was slowly dying. Now, she feels alive. What will it take for her to see this is all a fantasy? What will it take for her to find her way back?

This does not describe every WW. It would take a book. The personalities, background, and situations all vary. I believe there is definitely a commonality among WW's mindset. Emotionally, I think most women want the same thing in a MR. The couple may have maintained a friendship or sorts, but it doesn't replace the yearning desire in her heart for the romantic closeness & loving relationship that makes her feel special and alive.

So, this afternoon, we have a previously-scheduled MC session via Skype. This is the last one we currently have scheduled, though MC has urged us to keep scheduling regular appointments and to schedule at least one "intensive" (2-4 hours) in-office every 4-6 weeks. I am sure that will come up again today as today is our last one on her calendar.

I am seeking input on how I should be thinking of approaching this session, and what issues, if any, I should be bringing up, while keeping in the back of my mind that it is Christmas, a week-long family trip to see both our families looms starting the 26th for the ensuing week, and what effect me dropping too much of a bomb right now would have on everything. So, that is issue 1:

1) In general Should I just soft-peddle this session, play it passive, validate when she talks, and basically keep all my cards hidden for now? If not, how much should I open up about and to what extent? MC, FWIW, has preached and continues to preach full and open honesty at all times, including about what we are feeling and, in general, I am feeling very, very turmoiled and very, very "not safe" right now in this relationship. I have heard input ranging from "bring it up after christmas and tell her I won't work on this if it is not working towards an intimate/sexual marriage" to "don't say anything, just pull back based on your concerns and stop scheduling MC sessions". There is a lot of stuff on my mind including:

2) The recent bout of sleeping apart, when she spent four of six nights on the sofa claiming she was just tired and fell asleep and was too lazy/tired to come upstairs, which bout only ended after I mentioned to her that it concerned me because that had been a dynamic leading up to our recent problems-- either of us finding excuses to sleep outside of the MBR. This relates also to

3) Her talking about "not being able to see us as being intimate, even though she is willing to work towards that". FWIW this was discussed previously and she says she only meant that from "where she was standing now, it was very hard for her to see that happening, even as she understood from what MC said that it is possible." She remains scared that "we will put in the time on that and keep trying but that it won't happen."

4) Her offhand comments on a couple of occasions that, in essence, indicates she sees herself as the kind of person who wants to do some things contrary to "what others think is proper".

5) Related, seemingly, to "4", and a separate issue in itself that we already discussed at LW's MC session, is her intentional visit to a clothing store that is in the same strip mall as OM's favorite pub, on a day he was fairly likely to be there. As a reminder, she told me she was going there, I told her I didn't think it was a good idea, and she went anyway (and told me later), saying she wanted to "show that she could do it" and "didn't need to be afraid of going places."

6) Her seeming discomforture in recent months in church, her failure to go to confession or communion since the advent of the A, and her increased willingness to skip mass. This seems to me to be a rebellion thing, given her fairly strict catholic upbringing, as well as a likely overhang from her affair guilt. (she's always had a difficult time admitting mistakes/failures--as an example took her almost three years to get up the guts to go to confession after a terminated pregnancy in college).

7) Failure to put back on wedding ring-- I have not yet broached this subject with her.

8) Nearly two hour shopping trip she took out of the house two weekends back without her phone (which she knows I can track and volunteered awhile back to enable tracking on). She came back with bags and receipts from three different stores that probably didn't allow her time for any shenanigans but... I have no way of knowing for sure, and very unlike her to go anywhere without her phone.

9) She's had a couple of get-togethers with her WW bff, none really monitored by me, though the one time I did some checking up and am pretty sure given the circs that she just saw bff for dinner. At any rate, every time she gets together with bff, she comes away a little distant, a little more moody. As a reminder, bff is a VERY wayward woman, engaged in an EMA and constantly trumpeting how "she's never been happier", how she and my W were denied happiness for so long, and how "sometimes you just have to pick you"

10) Two recent discoveries of facts concerning her A with Om that I did not previously know about and which I find troubling: First, we were talking after LW's MC session about who knew about what, and I decried the fact that her bff's AP (who is a frat brother and former friend of both mine and of bff's STBXH) knew from bff about our situation and about her R with OM-- W tells me, with certainty, "Oh, he doesn't know, bff hasn't told him..." Which I know for a fact to be a falsehood because a) my own best friend told me that bff's AP told him he knew about it and b) During one of my surveillance phases months ago I overheard bff tell my W that "it's still weird for AP to see pictures of you together with OM" (and not with me-- remember, AP and I were frat bros and friends and he has a long history of seeing me and my W together). I am also pretty sure my BF told me that AP told him he had seen pics of my W and OM. I said nothing at the time my W said "he doesn't know" but... it bothers me. This is in the past and she is supposed to be able to be honest with me about that kind of thing.

11) Second recent discovery about the A is that picture of flowers posted as W's background photo on FB was, in fact, a picture of flowers OM had sent her AT HER OFFICE! (Brazen SOB.) I had suspected this to be the case, though W had previously maintained they were flowers sent to another coworker that she just thought were very pretty and reminded her of Hawaii. When she took the picture down off of her front page and replaced it with a shot of our boys in August, I thought of that as a potentially good sign (if, in fact, the flowers had been from OM.) Well, she confirmed to me LW that those flowers had in fact been sent to her by OM. This did NOT, however, reinforce my feelings that taking the pic down was a "Good sign". Rather, it made me mad (and has been making me increasingly mad) that she left it up as her FB front page for an entire month after we had our big "reveal" and supposed commitment to work on "us" on July 23rd. She will say she uninstalled FB from her phone and did not go on for a lengthy period of time... but she was definitely back on before 8/23 when the pic came down. (she did unfriend and block OM and his friends, and gave me her FB password.) Also, the picture, while taken down, is still in her FB photo archive.

12) I have suspicions about a couple of pieces of jewelry from earlier this year that she still has and wears, but nothing concrete. My MC said I should bring this up to W and discuss my concerns (but this MC thinks we should bring up and discuss everything because "secrets are bad.") I even have suspicions about a necklace she has been wearing-- nothing fancy, just a silver ring bisected by a silver chain-- that showed up a couple of weeks back around the time she had an unsupervised evening outing with bff. I think she says she picked it up at CVS or a discount store (which she does quite frequently with costume jewelry) but... she literally has not taken the thing off, even to sleep, in two weeks. I told her I "really liked it" right after she got it and a few days later but... I sincerely doubt she's wearing it 24/7 for that reason.

13) The two "new data points" in 11 and 12, above, along with the MC's urging for "full honesty" and my insistence to W a while back that she be honest and not tell me any falsehoods about the A, are making me want to revisit the beach trip over July 4 weekend. That was before we entered the intensive counseling phase on week of 7/23 and before my W cut things off with OM, and, so, is "covered" as prior misbehavior BUT... the fact that there is pretty much no way she and bff did NOT hang out with OM during that trip but yet denied, two or three times, that there was any contact continues to really, really bother me. She and bff both had a very close relationship, in my wife's case nearly daily contact for a time, with OM, and that beach trip had been planned since last December. There is no way that OM did not know they were going to be there and no way they did not know Om would be there (which he was, a mere three blocks down the boardwalk-- stupid SOB posted a pic on FB of himself standing outside of a well known beach bar there on that weekend.) It borders on the impossible to think that they did not at some point meet up and it pretty much is impossible to think that W did not at least know Om was going to be there when she left early from our family vacation at a nearby shore destination to go have her three day "girls weekend" with bff and another friend. Yet she denies all knowledge, at least as of the last time this was brought up a couple of months back.

Maybe I'm just obsessing about some of this but, dammit, I want the frigging decks cleared. If we are going to move forward we cant have these things overhanging from the past. And dishonesty or burying it or ignoring it ain't gonna help. We also gotta act like we are married if we are going to BE married and try to re-establish that relationship. If you go into something planning to fail... chances are you're going to fail.

A lot of this stuff amounts to "not acting like we're married", which is probably how I would couch it. Thoughts? Bring any of this up? None of it? Lay low, wait until new year and bring some or all of it then? Just chuck it all, play dumb and quiet during MC today and then go dark and let her figure it out?

Oh, and how could I forget:

14) The "kiss incident". Which, oddly, doesn't tick me off that much about her. I think I even understand why she said what she said and I don't think she was necessarily playing any games with me, BUT... the unreturned kiss I found very, very, very off-turning. It was a BIG turnoff for me. So much so that I did not even find myself attracted to her for a couple of days (and she is a very physically attractive woman and I have a VERY normal male libido these days). That REALLY whigged me out a bit, because I thought I would always be attracted to her no matter what. What I felt those days really troubled me and made me feel very hollow and empty, and has continued to trouble me a since then, though I once again feel an attraction towards the woman. This whole angle of it is something that I did not reveal nor discuss.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

If we are going to move forward we cant have these things overhanging from the past. And dishonesty or burying it or ignoring it ain't gonna help.

You are highly intelligent... But what you do not seem to get is, you are not moving forward... You cannot piece by yourself...

After reading your last entry, it occurred to me that you are both MAINTAINING... she is maintaining your marriage in a limbo state, and you are maintaining any semblance of hope... And it's just semblance, but you seem satisfied with it... Neither of you is being honest and open, because that would make it all messy... It would interrupt your maintaining...

BTW, she could very easily have shopped for those bags of items with receipts and all, and still have time to meet OM... I did that all the time... For all you know, he could have gone shopping with her... I had a friend, (the one I eventually gave up after reconciliation) who went shopping with her OM, and together they shopped for his wife's Christmas gift... Imagine that)...

I have more to say about the religious aspect, but I am on my way out to take my 91-year old momma Christmas shopping... Mis dos centavos... Adelante...

--artista

Artista, that seems a fair assessment.

What suggestions would you make for breaking out of that pattern or extricating ourselves from that sitch? Particularly given that our official "procedual posture", as we lawyers like to say, is that we are engaged in MC and committed to working on the MR? If we should try to salvage the sitch and the MC, how (blunt honesty?), and, if punting is my best option how to do so without burning bridges permanently?

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

What suggestions would you make for breaking out of that pattern or extricating ourselves from that sitch?

I'll try this again.

On January 2nd I would sit your wife down and say "honey I love you and I adore you and I know I have neglected you in the past. I can not continue to live in a marriage with no intimacy. I think you are beautiful and sexy and I can't continue to live in the same house as you without being able to kiss, touch and ML to you" (you get my point)

If she says "I can't give you that" then you need to walk and don't look back. (not literally) Try to convince her to leave and if not then consider leasing an Apt for a year. You have to strongly and confidently communicate to her that these terms are not acceptable to you and are not negotiable.

DO NOT LET FEAR HOLD YOU BACK!

Thanks again, LH, and I do recall that ftom before and, TBH, that is likely my favorite approach at the moment. Only q is WON I can stomach waiting until the new year...

HJ,

You made it this far. The is no sense doing it before the holiday are over. I no it's not easy but as someone said on here before "Limbo is soul sucking".

Perhaps until the new year which is not too far away, why don't you just do your own thing? Table spot checking, worrying, wondering, just do what you want to do. Don't think that you have to actively have to "work on the marriage" right now. Go out, get a drink with the guys, stay home, watch a movie, hang out with your sons......

Just don't think about having to "do" anything in your M right now, Just be.

And I guess I needlessly complicated my question by listing the laundry list of all the little specific things plaguing my mind, but:

What I'm really wondering about short term is how to approach specifically this MC session this afternoon. If I am going to wait until new years to say "look, I can't keep doing this this way" and, in the interim, just focus on trying to be me and enjoy the holidays and the company of my kids (THanks, Ginger, good advice under any circumstances), then is the best/safest move for me this evening to just... shut up? Let her do the talking (if any-- might make it a shorter session because often she is reluctant to speak first) and validate, and if asked if I have any concerns just shake my head and say: "Nah."

Or, even more aggressively, just cancel the session (for which I would still be charged at this point, BTW) and say I just don't think it's timely right now?

Because I don't know how I do any talking on, well, pretty much anything that's likely to come up in session without either a) having to address one or more of those uncomfortable issues I listed or b) lying.

Then don't talk. It's ok. let her use it as an IC session:)

Quote:

The woman who does not have that self centeredness and seemly has a good heart.......IMHO, reacts from her MR that has left her feeling empty and emotionally dead. She longs for romantic intimacy, tenderness, fun, etc. with her H. Going without for a long time may cause her to seek out novels or movies that feed an unmet desire in her heart. If she doesn't receive the things she desires from her H and their MR, she will often have an ongoing fantasy of how her life might be with someone else. And this can lead her into a vulnerable emotional state.

Sandi, that is a really good profile, and I know it is available elsewhere in other form in your various WW threads, but I thank you for posting a thumbnail here.

FWIW, I think the latter profile, the "previously good", fits me wife just about to a "T"... especially based on the way she has acted and even more specifically on the various things she has said. Whether that makes her and our MR salvageable is an entirely different question. She had an inordinately long period of neglect and loneliness (ironically at least somewhat due to her faith and sense of duty thereto which kept her around longer than she might have otherwise) during which to build up those wayward and rebellious feelings. I think her actual hostile resentment of me is mostly gone (at least on a conscious level), but there is no "love", at least in the romantic sense, currently. That part of our relationship was killed a long time ago. Maybe too long ago-- last time I saw her legitimately interested in me in any kind of intimate/romantic manner was four years ago, and she would say longer-- for it ever to come back.

And I understand that now. Maybe I've always understood it-- what a longshot this is at this point.

And I would add as well that it was her faith, I think... No, make that I know that I relied on, always having that in the back of my head, that kept me from having any sense of urgency on the previous two or three occasions she came to me, before OM, and said, in one way or another: "I feel unloved and undesired and sometimes I think we'd all just be better off if I left." I really, honestly, felt "safe" in the knowledge of how strong and important to her her faith was. It legitimately never occurred to me that she might actually leave-- even on the one time she actually packed her bag and I said "please don't go" even then not believing she was actually going to-- until I found out about the affair. Even before I found out, when I started having some nagging suspicions, I would always default to: she'd never cross that line.

I like the idea of canceling it. It communicates that you are tired of wasting your time and money on something she is half assing her way through to keep you at bay.

So, it is quite possible, even probable that, in some sense, it was her faith that prolonged her suffering and increased the ultimate damage to the MR. Both through her inaction and in my reliance on it as a backstop that kept me from any sense of urgency to try to repair the relationship.

That is not to say I "blame" God or my W's religious faith in any way. I have a very strong faith in God and believe that He works often in ways that we do not understand but which, in the final calculus, will be to the benefit of those who are faithful. And, obviously, had my W stayed true to her faith to the end, and had I stayed true to mine (and to my wedding vows to love honor and cherish), we might be in a very different place right now.

I just find it interesting that, in terms of the place we are now, my W's faith and my own reliance on it has, for the time being, arguably resulted in our MR being in a "Worse" place. OTOH, perhaps God and God alone understood that the only hope for my W and I to get to that better place was to go through this dark valley first. That is my hope... but sometimes the valley seems very dark.

Quote:

I like the idea of canceling it. It communicates that you are tired of wasting your time and money on something she is half assing her way through to keep you at bay.

LH19, there is an angry, militant, bad-a$$ side of me that really likes this idea but... I think I am just going to give her the opportunity to talk this time. My big challenge, of course, will be to bite my own tongue-- Even our MC has noted how urgent my need to talk seems to be sometime. Family trait... we always talked about everything.

Hi Jim
I think faith definitely adds to the internal conflict. At my DD's first confession a few weeks back my W spent an inordinate amount of time at the candle section (very unlike her). The problem in possibly both our cases is when the W deeply internalises everything after a period of time (and I'm past the 1 year mark) that may also coincide with taking an A further underground so as to avoid detection (not saying that's happening with your sitch, mind!). My W probably rumbled I had checked (once) when I suspected our multiple MC sessions had counted for nothing (thus sending her into deep cover) but I would personally say to you to keep the sessions going at the very least for the little snippets of information that do slip out. Did your MC go into family histories as that can give a great insight into the "why" (not that that helps with the "now" of course).

How did the MC session go?

Update on you'll session?

Inquiring minds want to know!

MC uneventful. I just laid low. MC did some self exploration exerciae,with us, I think as kind of a,segue into IC, which she is really trying to encourage W to do. The "moral of the,story" of the,exercises, if there was one, was "be,open and share your problems/thoughts/troubles" AND Don't focus on negative memories and thoughts because they take care of their own focus... we're naturally hardwired to better remember pain and trauma.

I did hear from another mutual friend today telling me W was asking her advice on IC... Sometimes W thinks sh can do it with MC, and other times not.

I also have reason to believe that at least a handful of the "suspicious things"v that have been bothering me are of no import in terms of potential infidelity. OTOH, nothing to indicate she is feeling any closer to ME.

Jim, it just doesn't sound to me like your W is down for recon. You're trying, she isn't. She's just warming a seat in MC, she's not engaged. I think her sleeping on the couch is VERY telling. She's still checked out. I think she's just biding her time until someone "better" comes along. She can't see you as the better choice.

I also think you are committing WAY too much time and energy into breaking things down (your 14 point list, man oh man!) when the bottom line is she is STILL a WAS. At this point it's best to let things float as-is through the holidays, but I agree with LH, you need to do something different after the holidays. Get out. GAL. Stop all MC immediately. Leave your W alone. I think you need a change of heart, you need to be DONE with all her BS and start doing things for YOU. That could very well snap her out of it, but even if it doesn't, it is certainly not going to make things worse.

Well, dammit, that blows. Pretty much shoots my evaluation clean out of the,water. Pretty sure W is contacting OM again... if she ever even stopped. There's another possible explanation, but I'm not too hopeful given all the other smoke, and at any rate I'll be able to eliminate that NLT tomorrow, prolly. Merry Christmas!

Hoosjim,

Finding evidence of w�s contact with OM2 was one of my christmas presents too. Try to spend time with your kids without your w. Get out and get busy. Merry Christmas to you too. Stay strong.

Quote:

Ugh! Why do you do this to us........just drop a hint at something and then walk away without telling us what happened?

Quote:

Ugh! Why do you do this to us........just drop a hint at something and then walk away without telling us what happened?

Im trying not to spin too much or get too caught up in exactly what she is doing. Or to try to explain because then i get caught up in explaining away. Suffice it to say she was somewhere she shouldn't normally have been-- at her office, and I found out completely inadvertently. Now it turns out she had a reason to be in the area (buying something for me... she gave it to me today as a gift) though not actually at her office per se, and she did not, as she normally does when she goes in there on a weekend, tell me she was going in. Of course, there are half a dozen good reasons she could have gone in there... and about a half a dozen "Bad" ones as well. It disturbs me that she did not tell me she was going in there. Not that i expect her to report all her movements but... she has been VERY good about keeping me apprised of her whereabouts (even when she goes, as she did two weeks ago with the store next to OM's hangout) to places where I might not be happy she is going.

Ah well, it is all part of the same dynamic-- her not being committed to doing this and doing it right. It'll all get brought to a head after the new year. Leaving tomorrow to go visit each of our families for a few days... two different states, over 1200 miles of total driving.

Also, Christmas Day did not go particularly well. One of my 180s is to be up and going early in the morning, no matter what, and one of her "Bad" memories of me is sleeping in late especially on weekends until half the day is gone and it's too late to do anything with the day. Also her "Holiday blues" that none of the holidays ever end up special. Well, last night, fell asleep downstairs on sofa-- both of us, actually, though on opposite ends of the L-sectional. No alarm and we were up a bit late talking after going to dinner with the kids (which was very nice... and went driving around looking at tacky house lights afterwards at her request-- also fun), so I didn't wake up. Until 1030! Same with my boys-- S19 has been in a sleep coma since coming back from college (he is in a very rigorous engineering program) and S17 apparently stayed up later than he should have on his phone, so they both overslept too. W was up at 7:30. Made breakfast, tried to get boys up, but they weren't budging. Me she didn't disturb either. Once i got up I could tell she was upset... for all the old and obvious reasons. We didn't talk about it much (though I took responsibility and apologized) and she softened up later but... not a good start to the day at all.

Ah well...

I haven't said anything although I have been reading along.

Sandi and Artista have both commented in different ways saying reasonably similar things.

I see lots of analysis, lots of telling WW she must sort herself out, lots of compliance and maintaining.

I do not see any romance or seduction, I don't really see any I am attractive to my WW. Together time and seductive Touching! I just read more of the same old same old. Even at Xmas.

Sandi said it very clearly, it is the idea of OM and happiness that is enticing, the dream of romance.

So what do I mean, V be very clear, let me give you a couple of ideas? You lost your ring and to W her ring may symbolise the old M, now I can think of lots of ways this could be turned to seduction and analysis isn't on that list.

It's Xmas and analysing do I give her a present, think less tangible on this, again seduction.....

And in case I am still not clear, carving the turkey after waiting on 3 'tired' men in a household who spend time in bed when I am working hard to provide a wonderful Xmas is same old same old. You have seen the film Shirley Valentine haven't you?

Talk to the wall, you are in a phase of your M when you can afford romance and can be attractive. Aged pa took aged ma dancing all her married life because she loved it, even at 95 dressed in his best suit to visit aged ma in hospital for their 65 wedding anniversary, with flowers (her favourite) and prosecco. That manand November knew his wife's hot spots for seduction and was not afraid to use them.

So where is the romance and seduction?

What are your WW hot spots?

What attracted your WW to you originally?

What were your seduction techniques then?

Where is the Flirting?

Really!

V

Well Jim we've all made it through the holidays. Hope things went well for you. Hopefully you'll have time for an update sometime this week.

Well, a new year is upon us. 2017 was a weird one, for sure. January 2017, when I found out about my W's A and fully woke up to just how damaged our MR was, seems like an eon ago. Yet at the same time, 2017 as a year seems to have flown by in a blink. Maybe it is the tendency of the brain to try to minimize painful episodes(?). Idunno, but either way it's a strange dichotomy.

I have some updates and also some resolutions-- call them New Years resolutions if you want, though I personally think the time construct is somewhat artificial. If you're going to change something, change it. (Though granted the holidays do create a pretty convenient and often climactic point in time after which to change things up.)

Our little family, W and I and our two boys, spent the entire week-plus holiday season together. The days leading up to Christmas were fairly festive, with my younger son (the warmer, more open, emotional, passionate, and empathetic one-- also the one with TS) really getting into the spirit, saying he didn't want to lose the "Christmas feeling" he used to get as a child and taking the initiative to play lots of holiday music, get him and his brother out shopping, etc. For my part, I was in good spirits, and spent a lot of time putting up lights, playing alot of music (all four of us love music and have lots of conversation about it, sharing likes and new discoveries and remembered arcana), singing, getting out, etc. Made it a point to plan some fun holiday activities-- We all went down to the historic district in our city on the 23rd, walked around and looked at lights and saw "It's a Wonderful Life" at an old historic theater, and then had what had been our traditional family dinner out at a restaurant on Christmas eve.

W was also not in her typical "holiday blues" that she always gets. She went out shopping, played music herself, was eager to plan and talk about our holiday travels/visits to our respective distant families (hers about 5 hours away, mine about 5 hours further past that), and appeared genuinely glad and happy to be there with both her family and, later, with mine, sitting and talking and laughing with family members, playing games, etc. She was surprisingly comfortable and relaxed talking to my mother (who is the only one of our parents who knows we are having trouble-- I have called it a "rough patch we are working through"-- though not that that W had an A) . This was a change from the August-Mid to late October time frame when W was reluctant to discuss the holidays and our plans, and was definitely uncomfortable doing so, particularly insofar as it concerned travelling to visit our families. We all bought gifts for each other-- W actually got some very thoughtful ones for me, including a very nice and somewhat expensive pair of leather boots (She thinks I really look nice in boots-- "I was after you for years to try wearing boots!") as opposed to the gift cards she had defaulted to the past several gift-giving occasions. The kids got her a couple of nice things that really seemed to touch her that they thought specifically about what she would like, and I got her a very pretty silk and cashmere scarf as well as couple of pieces of silver jewelry (she loves silver way more than gold, and it looks better on her to boot) I knew she would like, as well as a couple of other small but thoughtful things that I could tell she was impressed I put the thought into.

In terms of our interactions, they were generally good. We attended her office holiday party (which she invited me to for the first time in several years), went out a handful of times to restaurants or bars, talked and joked a lot on the approximately 20 hours we spent together in the car last week, and then spent New Years together, which was... interesting. I was trying and have been trying to kind of "low key" things, and not pursue while still being open to us doing things together if she is interested. We got back home quicker than expected from our travels on NY eve, the kids went to gatherings at friends' houses, and we were left with nothing to do and no food in the fridge. I asked her if she wanted to go get something to eat and maybe a drink (It was around 8 at this point) and she said "sure", although she was not happy with the way she looked (she never is these days it seems) and told me I'd need to wait for her to get cleaned up, which I did.

We got to the restaurant/bar about 930, ordered food and drinks, and somehow ended up in a really long, intimate string of conversations that even ventured into a lot of areas about which we had never previously talked. Pretty sure that all started when she started talking with an attractive younger girl and then started in with "what do men want in a woman" and then at one point asked me about porn and what men see in that and what they want to see in that. The conversation became VERY frank at points, involving us talking about sexual techniques and what we preferred and didn't prefer, and then talking about some of our own early liaisons... And something interesting happened here: a couple of our earlier "encounters" from when we were dating/engaged and a lot more hot for each other she at first did not recall at all, or professed not to (and we had had a couple of drinks at this point) but, later, this morning to be exact, she called me on her way into work specifically to tell me that she did in fact remember those times and doesn't know why she did not when we were out on Sunday night. At any rate, the New Years eve night progressed, we ran into a couple of people we knew for a bit and chatted and joked with them, we had a another drink, and shared a champagne toast... and kissed. Nothing real hot and passionate, but at the midnight countdown we were sitting close and talking, and it seemed like the right thing to do and she seemed receptive and I kind of softly said "come here" and pulled her gently in a little closer and we kissed. It wasn't too long or anything, but it was warm (unlike the weird "Test" kiss from a couple of weeks ago where she was really stiff and not receptive) and seemed natural. Not long after, we ubered home to get a bottle and then to a friends house-- single mom we both know with a younger child who was alone with no babysitter and unable to get out new years. Spent several hours, til about 5 AM, up talking and joking and taking turns playing music from our phones to her stereo and singing at the top of our lungs. It was fun, and nice-- really perked this friend of ours up. My W had suggested it as we were getting ready to leave and was really happy that I agreed-- she thanked me repeatedly for it-- "It really meant a lot to her."

Monday was not so nice-- I was a bit hungover but W got one of her famous "delayed hangovers" where she felt fine upon waking but then steadily felt worse throughout the day. She was also coming down with a cold which did not help. We watched foot ball on our family room TV with our sons, and talked a lot--another nice day, but she got progressively sicker, getting the chills and feeling nauseous, and had to go upstairs to the bathroom. I took care of her, brought her sodas and alkaseltzer and advil, sat with her a bit and tried to joke some to keep her spirits up... and something else curious happened here: When I got up to leave at one point she reached out her hand and took mine and said "no, please stay." First time since BD she's ever done anything like that... and I have taken care of her sick on a couple of other occasions-- once with a cold and once that was definitely a hangover (not that she is constantly getting hangovers, but NY's was, I think, the third time in 2017.) And first time she's said "thanks for taking care of me", which she did repeatedly Monday evening and again this morning.

Only couple of hiccups the past two week were on my part with the aforementioned "sleep in" on Christmas morning where I and the two boys overslept while W got up fairly early (though everything ended up well on Christmas Day, we all apologized and she did not stay irritated about it very long) and then on her part the fact that she had that unaccounted-for weekend stop at her office that could have had a couple valid explanations but which never was (I didn't ask directly, though there were several points over the past couple of weeks where that day and/or her office came up and she had a chance to say "Well, I should be in good shape because I stopped by there Saturday and took care of that extra paperwork" or "I stopped by the office to pick up a couple of gifts I had delivered there" and did not but... well... that's actually the subject of one of my "resolutions." She also got a little teary-eyed when she texted with her toxic bff on new years (we both sent around numerous texts to friends and relatives not there with us so I wasn't irritated by her texting in general at that point-- seemed like something everyone was doing), and was realizing that bff is NOT going to be around very much in 2018... BECAUSE BFF IS MOVING TO FLORIDA THIS MONTH, WOO-HOO!!! (Yes, it's definite.)

So, yeah... I would say on my part a definitely heightened level of positivity but also some added "cool" and stand-offishness, and on W's part a definite warming up, a definite increased level of comfort being my wife and being part of the family, and a few more things she's said here and there, including in our somewhat explicit talk Sunday, that make me think she is not looking to have any outside affairs even as she has not done or said anything explicitly to make me think she is all of a sudden "fully committed to being my W, mind body and spirit with no reservations".

I have a couple of resolutions for the new year:

1) To recommit to doing more things for ME in the vein of GAL, whether or not W is participating

2) To stay off the roller coaster of worrying what W is saying or doing, at least in the "micro", hour to hour and day to day sense. This includes not getting too high or encouraged about things that seem to go well (like New Years eve) or too low when things pop up that might make my mind spin (like her unexplained visit to her office.) My assumption, until proven otherwise, is that she is not currently engaged in an A but at the same time that she is not fully committed to working on our MR-- at least not in the sense that I want it worked on. That means I stay level and grounded, don't go out of my way to do things to "work on us", but be receptive if she takes the initiative, but don't distance myself too much or push for an actual separation as long as she continues to respect the only boundary I have so far given her-- "no open marriage, I won't share her" and as long as she continues to show me and the relationship the appropriate respect. If she takes the initiative or lead, then fine, I will participat... but she has unfinished business right now, primarily in the form of IC, and perhaps other things to do on her own journey that have to come from her. Whether or not I need to "have a talk" with her sometime soon to emphasize (set boundary(?)) that I will not live in a sexless marriage and that "working on our MR" for me, by definition, will include working to reestablish a fully intimate MR, as has been previously discussed in this thread.

3) Sort of as a corollary to this is to drop all monitoring of W. I mean, you know, leave open the option to spot check her if something really and obviously suspicious comes up (and I have tended to have pretty good radar here in the past, though not nearly as much lately), but otherwise just let it be. I am pretty comfortable right now with where she stands, and I think if she actually starts to stray will know it and be able to act accordingly.

That's it, my new Years' take...

Happy New Year, hoosjim... I prefer silver over gold, too... ☺️🍾🎉🎇

I know there are those out there who are not believers, and some even who are offended by the very concept... but my faith has been a touchstone for me, a rock for me to hang on to when everything else seemed turned upside down. And I have seen too many prayers answered... not always in the way I expected or "requested", and too many things that I did not understand at the time that ended up "happening for a reason", and too many weird and inexplicable coincidences for me to not believe that there is a God out there, a God who has a plan for us... a good plan. So, when you read this, know that that is where I am coming from.

At any rate, I am very thankful today. Should have made that one of my resolutions above: "Be thankful in all circumstances" (as the Bible tells us is God's will for us to do). I am thankful because He regularly reveals new truths to me-- usually at the moment they are needed most, because he answers my prayers, because he stands with me and guides me through the Holy Spirit, and because events that I do not understand at the time or that from most viewpoints would be viewed as setbacks or curses often end up being blessings-- tests or hurdles that are necessary for me to undergo in order to grow, or else just happenstances that put me in the right place at the right time to ultimately get to where I need to go.

One new truth I have been thankful to receive is that love is deliberate... we choose to love. Now, I have seen this or read this and been told this from time to time through my entire DB-ing experience and at various points, but for some reason it never really clicked with me until Sandi2 posted her recent "Reflections" thread. I had recently read something recommended by my MC/IC (A Christian, faith-guided counselor who, because of an extremely unlikely sequence of events I am convinced was deliberately put into my life by God), to that effect, and had been looking at it from a slightly off-kilter angle, having been thrown by my W's seeming continued commitment to having romantic love "strike her from above" as well as by my own cold and "off-turned" response to our ill-advised and drunken kiss a couple of weeks back. But somehow, what Sandi2 posted, and the way she posted it and wove it into God's will for us made it click for me: I can choose to love my wife and she can choose to love me-- we don't need anything to strike us from above-- and that can be the basis for beautiful and loving and intimate MR... if we both choose. And for so many years I did not follow the Bibles command to H's to "love their wives." I of course felt that limerance-based infatuation early in our relationship, but, after that, I don't know if you could say I "loved" her as the bible intended... it was probably more selfish in nature. I certainly checked off a lot of the "causes loss of respect" boxes on Sandi2's checklist. But now, I have more clarity on that. I can choose to love, and to do it in a way that is likely increase my W's respect and therefor her love for me... if she decides to commit/submit to that. If she does not, then I can choose to take care of myself, even as I continue to act "lovingly," though certainly at a distance and with less of a focus on a MR-type intimacy. There is a lot more nuance to this, and a lot more thinking and praying I need to do on it, but the clarity I think I have found the last few days has been a blessing. It has certainly helped me understand even more the importance of my W entering IC or else otherwise finding some way to work through her own issues, and understanding that she can "choose" to love me. I think she may be getting there but... that's up to her and I am not going to assume anything.

One of my prayers that usually gets answered is when I sincerely pray for inner peace, or quieting of my mind so that I can more aptly receive His messages and his will, or help and guidance from the holy spirit in the conduct of my daily affairs or in some specific regard. Have any of you ever felt just completely "in synch" with life? Almost like you can do no wrong or that everything you are doing is working or working out? Athletes call it being in the zone, and, while no great athlete myself, I have experienced it myself on the field of play and am familiar with the feeling. For me, it most often comes when I know I am completely right with God-- when I have been "behaving myself" and being diligent in prayer and in looking for His will and what He wants me to do. (As an aside, my own personal "theology" is that God does not punish us or visit earthly misfortune on us for our transgressions but, rather, that when we place ourselves at odds with his will-- with what he has intended for his creation and with how he has designed his universe and humanity to "best" operate-- that we then set ourselves up for misfortune by fighting against the natural order, against the way God intends things to be. We do it to ourselves.) I have experienced this "karmic" effect on a handful of occasions over the past year when I have been in significant turmoil, particularly in church services or when praying, and I have asked for a calming of my emotions and my mind so that I may pray better and so that I may be more receptive to His messages, via church service or whatever, and I have unfailingly been blessed with such calm. Today, after praying for support in "loving" my wife in the manner God wanted me to, and praying for the His help and guidance in all I did and said today, I experienced that even broader whole-body-and-life "in the zone" feeling that has buoyed me through the day. Whether or not that is just from prayer, or because I am also trying to align myself as closely with his will as is humanly possible right now, I don't know. Probably some of both. Amongst other things, it has been my fairly strong impression based on a number of signs that God wants me to trust him in this journey concerning my MR, that he wants me to practice trusting my W, and, in particular, that he wants me to not monitor her or check up on her in any way-- and I have done just that over the past several days, effectively "Cutting her loose."

Whichever it is, I have just felt "in the zone" today. I paid a visit to my W's office (she works in the doctor's office affiliated with the Physical Therapy clinic where I am currently receiving treatment) and, I believe through God's grace, it went extremely well. I just felt extremely comfortable with everyone I talked with-- I was lighthearted, joyful, funny, warm-- and it made an impression. She is friends with several of the other girls over there, and every time I go by recently I seem to hit it off better and make a better and better impression with them, and W notices... and tells me about it. And its not just about making an impression on the W but... I just really enjoyed it too. Most people I am finding are good people, or at least have a fair amount of "good" in them, and are fun and interesting to talk to, and it is heartening to connect with new people or to make new or deeper connections to people you already know. At any rate, I attribute all of this to a better understanding of what God wants as well as a better alignment with his will, and, of course, to my prayers for guidance and support being answered.

Even the happenstance that has me undergoing PT seems to have been a blessing in disguise. At the time I injured my shoulder, I was fairly down about it--- my fitness regimen was the cornerstone of my GAL, as well as the physical foundation for many of the strenuous, outdoorsy and physical type activities that I was taking part in and wanted to take part in. Not to mention the fact that "weak, sickly, and injured hoosjim" (albeit due at that time to systemic illness that is now cured) was one of the "optics" that had plagued my old MR with my W and that I wanted to avoid. I prayed for God to heal me quickly but, as always, prayed for him to send me down the path that he wanted me to go down to reach the type of MR or whatever R with my W he wanted me to reach. As it turns out, the lingering nature of the injury was a blessing-- it led me back to the orthopedic practice at which my W works, and my reconnection with that practice and with the people that now work there has created an additional connection and opportunity for interface between my W and me, and resurrected a dynamic that was a very fruitful one for us when we first met and fell in love-- which also occurred when I was first a patient at that clinic many years ago with a sports injury. That dynamic probably led to her inviting me to her office christmas party for the first time in several years, and to her inviting me on New Years to go hang out with one of the other girls from her office after we had rung in the year-- both of which ended up being good things. And, so, despite the seemingly-bad-on-its-face circumstance (a somewhat serious muscle injury), I am, in fact, thankful for it.

Today, I surprised W when I walked in to the clinic(I had forgotten about the appointment until it popped up on my "alarm" notifications, and she had not seen me on the schedule) but it was a good surprise. She smiled and joked with me, laughed and bantered with one of the other girls who I had very playfully and lightly (and not at all seriously) flirted with when I came in, and seemed genuinely happy I had dropped by. (She was also wearing, though she had no idea I was coming in, one of the pretty silver bracelets I bought her for Christmas.) Do I think this makes us "well on the road to recovery"? No, of course not! But I do think my attitude and my groundedness and the place I currently am faith-wise is making things a heck of a lot better for me, and I think that that can only make things better for us and our MR, and, if it doesn't? Then at least things are still a lot better off for me, and I am in a much more joyful place in my world.

Happy New Year, again, everyone! Thanks for all of your input, help, and guidance, and God Bless you all as we head through 2018!

same to you Jim
can certainly echo the sentiments of your post. When I get time I go to the main London cathedral which is quite near work. The point behind these trips is to firstly gain strength to deal with the (sometimes daily) mental challenges (there is a very powerful vibe in there), as well as clarity of thought so as not to overanalyse, mindread, etc.

best

Jim,

So are you going to have the conversation I suggested or are you going to continue being in the friend zone?

Hey Jim, we want to hear from you. I hope you won't fade away.

Not much new to report. A lot of "junk" with the kids has been taking up a lot of our time (both W and me). S19 is dealing with the overhang of his arrest last fall (nothing serious, just underage alcohol... he just happened to be the unlucky 1 in 100 college students that gets caught and charged with that sort of thing) and trying to arrange as much community service as possible before school resumes, AND trying to get his class schedule squared away. (He is in engineering and the school is not allowing him to enroll in a Math class after it gave him a late "registration" slot and they were all filled-- SOB's are charging me an extra 4K a year over standard tuition for the E-school, so they damned well better come up with a way to get him in one of those math classes even if it means booting a liberal arts major... grrrrr!) S18 OTOH is finishing up his college apps, which have gone slower for him at least in part due to his Tourette's, and the deadlines are looming, AND he has just started a new course of therapy which is currently weekly and an hour away though it will taper off by months end to every other week. And the holiday rush and chaos with visiting relatives, etc. (My SIL just visited last Thursday.)

So, we've been REALLY busy. Nothing really new to report between me and W. Things between us are about the same, though we missed a week (this past weekend) of having some sort of date night or social outing, as the weekdays and nights were too hectic and then for the weekend instead opting to spend some time together with the boys since S19 is going back to school next week-- which was nice. Son aught my W (and refreshed my memory) on Texas Hold-em poker, which my W really enjoyed and we played late into the night on Saturday-- laughed and joked a lot. W herself is generally a bit more moody right now than she had been pre-holiday... but then, OTOH she hasn't slept on the couch in a while, and she has been sort of steadily getting comfortable being closer to me in bed while we are sleeping-- we cuddle some now at night, though that is all. She has not made taken any initiative on either MC or on IC, nor on any of the homework assigned by MC back on the 20th. For my part, I am not going to push that... if she is not interested then I am not going to keep being the one to bring it up and schedule sessions etc etc. My plan is that fairly soon-- probably after S19 goes back to college this Sunday-- I will have the talk with her about what we are working towards-- either it is a full, intimate, physical marriage, or it is nothing. I'm not going to live in a sham or "half" marriage, and there are a lot of things that really look like she's holding back: Not wearing her ring, not taking initiative on or even asking about therapy, still hot and cold with me physically, drawing closer to her bff (it really almost seems at times like she has a romantic crush on bff, the way she talks to her and seems to "need" the contact with her), and, still, not being completely open and honest with me about the past with OM-- not that I am digging for stuff, but things come up in session and there are things I know she's lied about (like the facebook picture that stayed up for an entire month after we started supposedly working on us and about bff's AP-- also a "friend" of mine-- not knowing about my W and OM when in fact he did and had been shown pics of my W with OM) even though we are supposed to be clearing the decks. Plenty of things to give me pause but the big sticker is just the general lack of commitment to take the relationship to the "fully intimate" level.

I know someone asked me earlier "am I attracted to her" and "do I (hoosjim) want that relationship", the answers to both of which are "yes", though increasingly I can see myself without the woman. She's very conflicted and confused and, in some ways still unhappy now.

New Thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2774733&#Post2774733