Previous thread over 100 posts, making a new one so Cadet doesn't have to remind me!
Link to old thread:
Rebuilding my life Quick re-cap:
Came here to save my M
Never thought really to have any hope
Suspected OM, wife lies to have seen "a couple of times"
Reality: they spent every weekend together when D is with me
I went on spinning and really convincing myself I'm better off
Told stupid things to my XW (better without her etc), regretting it now
Destroyed the chances of a re-united family
Logically detached and accepted the situation, emotionally not even close
Hopefully someday I have a fulfilling life
So, today was a low-day for me. Free from work, very tired, been just sleeping the entire day waking up every hour or so. This f#cked up sleep is just getting the better of me. Got up from bed at 4pm, lol. Been so emotional today that I can't even understand. Now I just read some threads where their XW has had a baby with OM and man did that feel horrible. Panic attack made a comeback.
Well, day by day. Hoping for a better future
Missing my kids so much. Feel bad about being a bit angry towards D this morning when I took her to school. I'm just so tired. She is very temperamental at mornings and she decided to lie to me. I raised my voice a bit saying that it isn't acceptable. I just want to sleep well again.
Previous thread over 100 posts, making a new one so Cadet doesn't have to remind me!
Link to old thread:
Rebuilding my life
LC, look at the pattern below and see if you can learn from it. It really is up to you.
Quick re-cap:
Came here to save my M
Never thought really to have any hope
Did the hopeless outlook affect your behavior? Surrender is easier than making a consistent effort or a change.Suspected OM, wife lies to have seen "a couple of times"
Reality: they spent every weekend together when D is with me
were you two separated then or had she filed for D?
I only ask b/c I think your w believes she did the heavy lifting in the m. Then she gave up. So maybe you both used the "hopeless" label to justify a course of action.I went on spinning and really convincing myself I'm better off
Told stupid things to my XW (better without her etc), regretting it now
declarations based on our emotional state, let alone a relatively new one, does not help us. No need to share our moods or new beliefs, too soon - if ever. New Behavior will always matter more.
Regardless, wallowing in regret is what you did at the start of this.
Why not make a different choice?
Destroyed the chances of a re-united family
Making declarations like you "destroyed the chances of a reunified family" is a repeat of the first belief you had coming here. You said it was hopeless and that OM was a better fit and you chose a screen name "Lost Cause",
then you declared the opposite, the divorce was a "blessing", you were "happier and better off" without your w, AND you told your wife this.
Then you planned to move 80 miles away from your kids...
Today you swing back to the original theme. I cannot help but notice that
All of these beliefs & declarations require little behavioral changes in you.
What's up with that?Logically detached and accepted the situation, emotionally not even close
Hopefully someday I have a fulfilling life
do you think you have any control in^^^^ creating this? Did you see an IC about it? So, today was a low-day for me. Free from work, very tired, been just sleeping the entire day waking up every hour or so. This f#cked up sleep is just getting the better of me.
I understand. Sleep matters a lot. Got up from bed at 4pm, lol. Been so emotional today that I can't even understand. Now I just read some threads where their XW has had a baby with OM and man did that feel horrible. Panic attack made a comeback.
This^^^ is so not productive.
I blocked my h and OW from the get go, thank God. It's a protective measure and it's also logical. There is nothing you can do about what they MIGHT do or think or plan or feel. Put a STOP sign in your mind if you need to, and redirect it to something positive or the image of water rolling off your back, etc. Sounds gimmicky but it helps.
Plus the more space you give them in your head/heart, the more stuck you will be and that is (not attractive to your w) and that is not happy for YOU.
If you have an IC, you can work with them on how to do more cognitive behavioral techniques that help.
Really, there are resources out there that make a difference.
I'm not making this up. 
Well, day by day. Hoping for a better future Missing my kids so much.
did you move away from the kids? What about GAL on the weekends you don't have them? I know we have discussed this at length but do you see any value in getting out to meet new people?
What about joining a DivorceCare group? They are all across the nation. And they do not push their religion on you - ( it's just that it is mostly churches who host them.) We end our sessions with a prayer, about half the time. I have Hindus, Christians, some Jewish people and agnostics in my group. - I just want to sleep well again.
Can you try a new behavior to help you sleep? I think you got the Insight Timer app, correct?
I admit to needing sleep aids at times, esp in the 3 am nightmare awakenings. Poor sleep causes depression, btw. So it becomes a cycle we have to break.
Where is your family, btw?
Hang in there.
Just a quick one regarding sleep. I use the app Headspace for meditation. In the premium content there is a sleep meditation that I use every night. It does not work every night, but I think that it does help me relaxing and making the transition to sleep easier.
LC, look at the pattern below and see if you can learn from it. It really is up to you.
The thing I've learned is that waiting for the emotional side to die off takes long and before that I'm just not going to be able to function properly.
Did the hopeless outlook affect your behavior? Surrender is easier than making a consistent effort or a change.
I don't think it did. Because that's just how I've been. I don't need hope to change, I need time to get over her to change. It's not going to happen before that because I feel so dead inside.
were you two separated then or had she filed for D?
She claims they started talking a week after BD but there were DEFINITE signs before BD. But the talking happened before D filing and PA was before S.
I only ask b/c I think your w believes she did the heavy lifting in the m. Then she gave up. So maybe you both used the "hopeless" label to justify a course of action.
Maybe she felt that way, but neither one of us had the proper relationship or conversation skills.
declarations based on our emotional state, let alone a relatively new one, does not help us. No need to share our moods or new beliefs, too soon - if ever. New Behavior will always matter more.
Regardless, wallowing in regret is what you did at the start of this.
Why not make a different choice?
I know. I've just always been that way. It's easier to me then convince it really is there and to continue moving on. It was stupid.
You make it sound like I could just flip a switch and stop wallowing. I can't. My brains are just not wired that way. It'll take time for me to get over her.
Making declarations like you "destroyed the chances of a reunified family" is a repeat of the first belief you had coming here. You said it was hopeless and that OM was a better fit and you chose a screen name "Lost Cause",
then you declared the opposite, the divorce was a "blessing", you were "happier and better off" without your w, AND you told your wife this.
Then you planned to move 80 miles away from your kids...
Today you swing back to the original theme. I cannot help but notice that
All of these beliefs & declarations require little behavioral changes in you.
What's up with that?
Who knows? Maybe fear? Indecision? Trying hard to create synthetic happiness? Not being able to feel good in ANYTHING what I do? Not having a purpose? No passion towards anything? I feel so dead inside.
do you think you have any control in^^^^ creating this? Did you see an IC about it?
Not until I'm over her. Nothing feels good because everything reminds me of it. I do see an IC, but it's rather pointless.
did you move aay from the kids? What about GAL on the weekends you don't have them? I know we have discussed this at length but do you see any value in getting out to meet new people?
Not yet. The university starts next year if I plan to attend. It's hard to get into though.
Not until I'm over her. Because no matter where I go, I just feel I want to be alone. I feel that interactions or being with friends is so overwhelming and I just want to escape.
Life definitely does not feel like an adventure to me, rather, life is a curse.
Sorry, this is all bass ackwards. You don't wait to get over her, then start making your life better. You make your life better, and THAT is what gets you moving toward being over her. Along with all of the other things countless posters have urged you to do.
If seeing your IC feels "pointless", then get another one. Keep trying until you find one that helps you. They are out there, and nothing in your sitch is exotic or too hard for any IC who knows what they're doing. This isn't to minimize your suffering, just to make sure you understand that there are really good ICs out there who will help you, and getting cheated on and losing your spouse isn't something they haven't seen and dealt with.
Look at your signature block at the end of your posts:
"Rope dropped, rebuilding my life for future adventures".
Get going!
Just a quick one regarding sleep. I use the app Headspace for meditation. In the premium content there is a sleep meditation that I use every night. It does not work every night, but I think that it does help me relaxing and making the transition to sleep easier.
yes I've heard good things about headspace. Insight Timer works for me (and "Calm") but if they did not, I'd spring for one that did, even if it costs a bit. I never meditated before, either. I do now.
Sleep is under rated in our physical and emotional health.
Thanks but that's not how my brain works. I just need to get over her so I don't mentally puke and want to get back home every time I go outside meeting other people.
IC is pointless because it's all talk, no meds. Talk does not help. She can give all the possible methods and practices but it doesn't help if I can't keep doing them... and I don't do them because I don't FEEL any reward from them. I need meds or something more drastic than talk.
"Being cheated on" or "losing my spouse" is not at all what I'm concerned about. It's that I don't feel passionate about anything. I can do all the passion practices but I can never achieve them or start building my life towards them because nothing gives me any reward or good feeling. If I'd win $30M in lottery, I would probably be like "sigh, why didn't I win $60M?". The same as getting my MSc papers in EE. Most people would have thrown parties and celebrated. I just said that "whooppiduu now I don't have to buy toilet paper because I got some papers to wipe my ass clean to".
That's my issue. And that has been for years, not just since BD. I feel dead inside.
Sorry, this is all bass ackwards. You don't wait to get over her, then start making your life better. You make your life better, and THAT is what gets you moving toward being over her. Along with all of the other things countless posters have urged you to do.
THIS^^^^
LC, it's not about "inside out" (- "first I'll feel better and THEN I'll change...")
it is exactly the opposite. You GAL and then you feel better
you behave in more positive ways and THEN you feel more positive. Outside in.
Which is a lot more within our control, btw.
That is why I suggested the TED TALK videos on youtube (22 min each) by Amy Cuddy and Sean Achor
about positive psychology. IT's not psycho babble, they present empirical data that supports their theses.
Can't hurt.
If seeing your IC feels "pointless", then get another one. Keep trying until you find one that helps you. They are out there, and nothing in your sitch is exotic or too hard for any IC who knows what they're doing.
Get going!
I do meditate but it does nothing for the sleep quality. It makes me sleepy and I mostly fall asleep while listening to it, but I wake up several times a night ranging between 1min to 2 hours.
Thanks but that's not how my brain works. I just need to get over her so I don't mentally puke and want to get back home every time I go outside meeting other people.
IC is pointless because it's all talk, no meds. Talk does not help. She can give all the possible methods and practices but it doesn't help if I can't keep doing them... and I don't do them because I don't FEEL any reward from them. I need meds or something more drastic than talk.
"Being cheated on" or "losing my spouse" is not at all what I'm concerned about. It's that I don't feel passionate about anything. I can do all the passion practices but I can never achieve them or start building my life towards them because nothing gives me any reward or good feeling. If I'd win $30M in lottery, I would probably be like "sigh, why didn't I win $60M?". The same as getting my MSc papers in EE. Most people would have thrown parties and celebrated. I just said that "whooppiduu now I don't have to buy toilet paper because I got some papers to wipe my ass clean to".
That's my issue. And that has been for years, not just since BD. I feel dead inside.
since this^^ played a role in your marriage problems and family life
why isn't it something to work harder on? This is not a dress rehearsal.
You sound profoundly depressed.
Are you saying you have always been this way? Have you asked for meds or in patient treatment?
No shame in it
I only got SSRIs. They are rather useless. I need more drastic meds, say those that target the dopamine system. But, alas, they could ruin my brain chemistry!!1 So, no chance in getting any.
So, I need to get over her to stop mentally puking every time I'm out SO I get out of this circle and then I can heal.
I think I'm going to find a rebound relationship. I've read studies which indicate those people get over their exes much quicker and end up being happier. Just need to keep in mind that it is a rebound. Emotionally attaching to someone would probably do wonders for me.
Maybe so. Or what if I make it really obvious for her?
Also, rebound relationships CAN work too. So can affairs. Maybe it could be a FWB scenario? I don't know. You can google for the studies yourself.
I think I'm going to find a rebound relationship. I've read studies which indicate those people get over their exes much quicker and end up being happier. Just need to keep in mind that it is a rebound. Emotionally attaching to someone would probably do wonders for me.
LC, dude. You feeling okay? In my thread you just mentioned how people jump into a R too soon after D. Purposefully labeling a R as a "Rebound R" seems a little heartless to me.
No I'm not feeling ok at all. I want this f*cking feeling to end so I can continue with my life. Nothing is going to happen before I'm over her.
Yes, too many people jump into the arms of the next person showing any emotional support while imagining it's going to be the "next big love story of the century". That's the worst way possible. Nothing bad in dating multiple people, having sex, not being exclusive, having fun and stating that you're just rebounding. That according to studies is the fastest way to get over your ex and it makes you feel so much more confident.
No I'm not feeling ok at all. I want this f*cking feeling to end so I can continue with my life. Nothing is going to happen before I'm over her.
OK. Just to be clear, I know that really NOBODY on here is "ok". Hope that didn't come across the wrong way.
Nothing bad in dating multiple people, having sex, not being exclusive, having fun and stating that you're just rebounding.
Well, I suppose if you're up front that you're rebounding, then there's no real blame to go around. But still...
25 I'm not working harder on it because again, nothing gives me a good feeling. It's really hard to force yourself to do practises or go out if you constantly think like "when is this over".
I'm like that with say dishes too currently. I had to pack a lot of the plates and cups so I just have a few of each. Otherwise they'd pile up. That's my life and there just doesn't seem to be any way out. I bet finding a new partner would do it though.
I lied. There is one thing that I want to do. Doing things for others, not for myself. That is happiness for me. I remember fixing a lot of things in my xfil/xmil house, but in ours I never even started. I need the validation I get from it and my XW never gave me any. It would have been nice to at least sometime hear the words "thanks for plowing the snow, going to the store and taking out the trashes. I would have frozen outside!". Or similar... XFIL was always so appreciative of everything I did because he never did anything for the house. He has money so small renovations were always made by someone else. I fixed their car multiple times and he was always amazed about it. That is what makes me tick. I don't need anything in return except the words "thank you" and that is sometimes. So happiness for me is putting the needs and wants of others first - as long as they seem like it's wanted. Maybe this is the nice guy syndrome... but I'm not passive aggressive about it or expect any favors in return. Just that the things I do wouldn't be just something expected always. It's really the minor things too. Why couldn't she never appreciate anything I did? I felt so unloved at times.
It's really ironic that NOW my XW is doing it. I take D to ice skating - "thank you". I take kids for one more day - "thank you". She is speaking my LL NOW. It makes this all so much harder. This is why I said it'd be easier if she was angry at me.
I lied. There is one thing that I want to do. Doing things for others, not for myself. That is happiness for me. I remember fixing a lot of things in my xfil/xmil house, but in ours I never even started. I need the validation I get from it and my XW never gave me any.
You are on this forum, I take it for help so apologies about the bluntness of this but:
Can you see how co-dependant that paragraph is?
I have absolutely no doubt this fundamental flaw is the root to 99% of your problems.
"I NEED the validation I get from it, and my EX wife never gave me any" and she never gave me any".
Ill say it again - Do you understand the fundamental flaw in your mental makeup for you to come out with comments like that?
It is NOT hers or ANYBODIES job to give you validation. You do that yourself. That is a massive burden for her to carry - and she will have picked them vibes up from you whether you knew it or not.
The worst part is the 'irony' that your XW is now validating you so you would rather her be angry at you, rather than hurt you for saying thanks or showing appreciation for things?? - That is really weak - That’s is neither attractive or healthy.
That has nothing to do with brain chemistry or neurotransmitters or whatever study you have recently read.
Your skirting around the problem looking for easy fixes (AD, new fling) and not focusing on the cause. They would simply be further distractions.
You don't seriously believe this do you? -
I think I'm going to find a rebound relationship. I've read studies which indicate those people get over their exes much quicker and end up being happier. Just need to keep in mind that it is a rebound. Emotionally attaching to someone would probably do wonders for me.
Sure, I am codependent. It definitely is due to neurotransmitters and/or learned/wired behavior/genes. I know it's my goddamn problem. I just don't feel happy about doing things for myself. Never have. It doesn't feel good. There is no satisfaction. I feel happy about helping others. I feel loved when I hear those words. I don't feel loved from getting gifts bought on our shared money - Why would I? I could have bought it myself! I don't need to plow the snow for myself because I don't care about walking on snow. I did it so it was easier for my family. I don't care if our house is messy. I cleaned it up so it'd be nicer for her and kids. And so on. It's definitely something I'm going to look in my next partner. Like it or not. That's how I just feel alive. If they don't appreciate what I do, then they don't love me.
I'm never going to be happy for doing things to myself, because there's little to no purpose.
It's on studies so why wouldn't I believe it?! No harm if I keep in mind it's just to get over her
I need that easy fix or something to throw me out of loop. I get it that you have never been depressed or felt this way about anything. But I can try to create the mental picture for you: imagine something you really hate to do. Something that really disgusts you. Something you can't do. That's how an overweight person feels about losing weight. That's how a depressed person feels about "positive thought and actions". That's how I feel about changing. A healthy brain releases dopamine each time you accomplish something, say play a correct chord on a guitar. My brain tells me "yay you learned one chord... whoooooo it only took you two hours (sarcastic) now please even try and learn the rest of the chord perfectly and maybe then I can give you satisfaction". I hope you see the problem. Sorry for venting but I am just so frustrated and I have nowhere else to write.
I've tried to talk about this but it's just not doing anything. I KNOW it could get better by using a lot of time but that's just the most ironic catch 22 there is. I would love to get better but it is hard and I require more than just some practices I can do at home alone because guess what? If I don't get instant gratification, it's really hard to see the point
I can logically think it works, having a good diet makes me healthy, lifting weights makes me muscular but my brain just doesn't accept it because it doesn't see results, thus I don't feel good about it. Hope that explains it a bit or overall opens up the mental picture messed up people have. It's definitely mostly about brain chemistry/and learned behavior.
I forgot to add: when someone else then says "wow you played that chord perfectly!", my brain instantly realizes that it was something actually "cool" and THEN it releases the dopamine and thus I feel good.
It is my messed up reward system that is just not functional at all. I would need something that targets it to push me out of this to actually see something nice in doing things. SSRIs target the serotonin system which makes it even a bigger problem because that takes off the dopamine even more. I am not crying or feel that emotional most of the time (serotonin), I feel no purpose, no drive, no motivation (dopamine). But those meds are addictive and they could "mess up my brain chemistry" (from my doc) so I wont be getting them.
Sorry for the venting, this is useless. It is just myself trying to get more validation... lol. Ironic.
Sounds like you need someone to talk to, to detach and GAL. Looking at what she and the OM are up to will not help you. It will only make you feel depressed.
I get it that you have never been depressed or felt this way about anything. But I can try to create the mental picture for you
Do you honestly believe you are so unique that you have to explain these things?
I wanted to kill myself. My Dad is clinically depressed, my Uncle and Auntie both committed suicide before they were 50 because of depression.
I know depression.. I can still taste it if I let it back in, I know about wanting to die.. I know about having no hope.. I know about having nothing that gives me any pleasure.
But guess what?…. life doesn’t give a sh*t about sob stories or victim mindsets… and each day that goes by is another day that you can never get back - so the attitude I had was "This is not happening no more, I will not base my life around situations and circumstances I can not change and I will take responsibility for my own happiness"
You firmly believe - "My story is different and I'm a victim of genetics" - don’t you?
Well outside of the world your currently living in there are MANY people who are dealing with what you are and many have it much worse than you.
People whose babies have died at birth, people are born blind, having your brother die of leukaemia at 6 years old- The list goes on… But you are not in a unique situation.
Sometimes in life, you have to stand up and be counted and find something that makes you tick. There is a whole world out there, and to suggest that there is nothing that gives you any pleasure suggests that you have gone out there and experienced everything the world has to offer.
You haven't done that because at the moment you are struggling to get out of bed.
You think seeing an IC is useless, you don’t want to see any friends, you want to spend time alone and you would prefer your XW to be nasty with you so when she is nice it doesn’t hurt you as much.
Sometimes you have to look at your situation in life and be brutally honest with yourself.
You have 2 options:
Accept that you need to put GAL as your top priority and accept that no one except you is going to pull yourself out of this stinking thinking hole your in - without blaming anything else and forget the 'story of me'
Or
Get it medically confirmed that you are indeed unique and you can receive the professional help and medication you need to recover.
Let us know which one you chose
Sometimes in life, you have to stand up and be counted and find something that makes you tick.
Sometimes you have to look at your situation in life and be brutally honest with yourself.
Words to live by.
The second one if I could. I think sleeping 4-5 hours a night for 7 years has done real damage to my brains. My digestive system has been messed up for the same amount of time and they are now coming up with studies that it affects mood etc on a high level. I don't have money to get properly examined. Sorry. Depression is a mental illness. GAL does NOTHING to it unless you can counter the underlying issues. Good for you if you managed to cure it, many people don't. I don't care about days that go by. The faster the better.
My happiness will always be dependent on others because it is my top most priority in a relationship, the way how I feel loved. I don't feel love with quality time, gifts, cuddling or sex. I feel love when I'm appreciated. That won't change and it's not codependent. It's like saying "do you know how hard is it for me to always give her sex or closeness or gifts?". It doesn't require much to every once in a while show your appreciation to someone you know - something I do nearly daily.
The second one if I could. I think sleeping 4-5 hours a night for 7 years has done real damage to my brains. My digestive system has been messed up for the same amount of time and they are now coming up with studies that it affects mood etc on a high level. I don't have money to get properly examined. Sorry. Depression is a mental illness. GAL does NOTHING to it unless you can counter the underlying issues. Good for you if you managed to cure it, many people don't. I don't care about days that go by. The faster the better.
My happiness will always be dependent on others because it is my top most priority in a relationship, the way how I feel loved. I don't feel love with quality time, gifts, cuddling or sex. I feel love when I'm appreciated. That won't change and it's not codependent. It's like saying "do you know how hard is it for me to always give her sex or closeness or gifts?". It doesn't require much to every once in a while show your appreciation to someone you know - something I do nearly daily.
Everyone has a love language. That is separate from being able to be happy without a romantic relationship.
Not being able to be happy on your own is codependent.
I know you are hurting, but looking for a rebound relationship is not a morally responsible choice. It won't fix you, and it has the potential to really hurt someone else.
Wow, I have been reading and so much caught my eye.
Depression is awful. Depression runs heavily through my family. My mother killed her self at 47 due to a horrible depression component of bipolar disorder.
When my ex left, over 9 years ago when I was 27 and my baby was 6 months old, I actually did not fall into a depression. I was in survival mode with a baby.
I have been on AD's for almost 2 years. Depression finally did set in. Then I was in a relationship and it ended and I sunk into a REAL depression. I actually knew what depression felt like. I have been seeing an IC all along and we worked through it and I increased my AD's. I couldn't stop sleeping, nothing made me feel good and I was ultimately hopeless and it was the most godawful feeling. I have a kid to raise and a job to attend and school, so I had no choice but to fight through it. I went to the gym even if I didn't want to. I socialized even when it felt like torture. Eventually I came out of the very dark place, but it took WORK. and it took HEALTHY work.
Reading what I am reading about your need for validation from a signifincat other and it being the only thing that makes you happy seriously worries me. Yes, relationships feel good, validation feels good but when that is our only source of happiness, that is a serious problem. That also puts a huge burden on a partner. I also read that everything you are trying to do or have done is all about you. You do for others because it makes YOU feel good. There is nothing wrong with deriving pleasure from helping others, but it seems as if you do it just for you. An example would be the rebound R. Have you even stopped and thought about how that might feel for the person on the other end of the rebound? How you making yourself feel good could seriously hurt others?
A healthy form of receiving your validation: Volunteer! Give to others who have much less than you! Support a good cause! It's a win win! You feel good about seeing how your work helps others and others are helped! I get depressed on the holidays I don't have my D10. I don't really have much family and I am single. So this year my D10 goes to her dad's for thanksgiving, I decided to serve Thanksgiving Dinner at a mission. I fill my hole by giving back, and the less fortunate have a thanksgiving meal.
You need healthy ways of coping. I do believe you really need to be on meds or very intense treatment with a psychiatrist. I think you would benefit so much. Your coping mechanisms aren't so healthy right now. I know for a short time during my depression I probably would have done ANYTHING to make myself feel better. I never understood it until I went through it. But working hard with my therapist, I found healthy, non-destructive ways to help myself. I hope you can do the same.
I'm sorry for both of you, Ginger and B. It's really hard to lose close ones.
Thanks for commenting though. I've always been like this, since the days I can remember. I've always craved for social acceptance or "superiority". Everything I do is to impress others (work out -> good body -> wow you have a nice body! or study -> intelligence/degree -> wow you have a degree in X?), I feel no joy whatsoever doing things that are solely for myself. That is my curse. My IQ is rather high... so it's not stupidity or whatsoever.
Therapy has no answers because it's all practices I would have to do... but those are for myself and the gratification happens with time... not the instant one my brain would require so convincing it is really hard. Meds could help but again, no avail.
Rose, I know what you're saying. I'm not gonna do that because I'm not attractive at all in this condition and frankly put I don't know if I ever want a relationship again...
I think I would just need time to be completely alone for a while, like a month without anything to get my attention, no PC, nothing. Just meditating, sleeping, exercising and eating healthy. Reseting, if you will. But that's just not possible.
LC, a few months ago after BD, I looked inside myself and realized I didn't know what made me happy. I spent so much of my life taking care of others that my brain couldn't see my own happiness as anything other than selfishness. It was hard, but I did eventually start to find activities that made me happy. Don't get caught up in thinking about what others do to make themselves happy. Yours may be totally different. I think you've done a good job of eliminating things that don't work for you, but you need to keep looking for things that do.
You are only 30 and have so much of your life ahead of you.
Therapy has no answers because it's all practices I would have to do... but those are for myself and the gratification happens with time... not the instant one my brain would require so convincing it is really hard. Meds could help but again, no avail.
Rose, I know what you're saying. I'm not gonna do that because I'm not attractive at all in this condition and frankly put I don't know if I ever want a relationship again...
Come on! basically you are saying this is long and hard work, but you want instant gratification. I think all our brains are wired to desire to want instant gratification, but the things worth it in life require hard work. So do the work.
Just because we have been "one way" our whole lives, doesn't mean we can't change. It is not impossible for you to change the things you don't like or that do not serve you or anyone else around you. Depression or no depression.
Like I said, the things you do are almost soley for yourself. You do them because you NEED validation. So right there, you are deriving pleasure from doing for yourself. You desire the outcome which is about you.
Let me ask, when you do all this stuff for other people, if you didn't get praise, but you made a difference, would you still do for others?
> Let me ask, when you do all this stuff for other people, if you didn't get praise, but you made a difference, would you still do for others?
Yes. I frequently do it. Each and every day at work. I enjoy doing it, random acts of kindness. Say I just take 1-2 minutes of someone else's work and do it for them. I don't have any rush and I'm quick at my job. So I have time to help. I don't expect to get words back each and every time. I'm fine if I hear the appreciation SOMETIMES. I do feel that they are more "open" towards me because of that. And just "wow, thanks" is enough to make me feel super happy about it. I make people laugh with silly stuff too. Sometimes I just buy something for people. E.g. donuts. I do all crazy stuff.
Yes. I know it's instant gratification. Not really, our brains are wired to receive massive dopamine spikes from something really hard (e.g. hunting for food and finally getting it). The modern life just destroys us mentally.
Holding, thanks for the tip. I guess it could be that... but nothing just feels particularly interesting for me.
Thank you all. I'm going to push for another doc if I'd get Wellbutrin or similar described. I really think I need the initial push from dopamine reuptake inhibitors before I can start acting properly. Just so that I feel confident enough pushing for the CBT stuff. I don't think serotonin is the proper cause. I felt emotional at the beginning, but currently it's more of just anhedonia and accepting my bad position. I haven't really cried in ages, outside of just being this f*cking tired.
Do you have proof i.e. test results, of how your brain is lacking in certain areas? to explain why you struggle
It's really hard to prove dopamine deficiency, it doesn't show in blood tests. But it's a pretty good sign if say sex doesn't feel at all important for you or the activities you did enjoy fullest at some point in your life doesn't give ANY satisfaction anymore. I learned how to program at the age of 13 and made professional webpages for my high school when I was 15 (with proper admin panel etc). Now I don't feel ANY interest in doing this, even though time used to fly back then when I was doing it.
It's like everything would feel worthless, no matter how much I have preferred doing it at some point or how much I would want to achieve it. To me, it sounds a lot like an issue in dopamine system based on all the research I've done (funny how this is probably the ONLY thing I'm really able to do, but even going to pursue another doc feels worthless to me
)
SSRI that is typically prescribed targets to the serotonin system, that which is more related to anxiety and overall "well-being". Dopamine is the neurotransmitter which makes us strive for stuff. Mice that got their dopamine systems destroyed didn't eat even though food was right in front of their faces because they just didn't feel motivated enough - so they died to hunger.
I get that you're questioning it, I don't blame you. I would too. Maybe it is related to how mentally strong I am. Still sleeping only few hours a night and it certainly does not help for this at all.
Is that a no?
You have taken a very 'full on' approach to your self diagnosis.
With no factual evidence at all.
The only thing convincing you is your interpretation of the feeling it gives you; and how you relate them feelings to the 'known' symptoms.
You do not know. Im NOT saying it isnt. But you do not know.
If losing your marriage etc.. isnt a the biggest rocket up someones arse then I dont know what is. Thats the difference; some people used it to really fight through with proper help and give it 100%, the others dont and simply us it as a 'reason' not to be reaching their potential.
If this is you fighting and giving it 100% then im lost for words. If it isnt worth fighting for.. what are we here for?
GTFO from my thread if you have nothing to say than your useless projections on me.
If therapy and seeing a doctor about my issues is "nothing" for you, which I couldn't do for the previous many years - I don't know what is. If you could just immediately "snap" from a depression and start living your life to the fullest, YOU NEVER HAD A PROPER DEPRESSION IN THE FIRST PLACE. Depression is a serious mental illness that can take YEARS to cure. Some people don't get it cured in their ENTIRE LIFE-TIME. I get that you didn't read my posts how I have TRIED to battle it with the doctor but he doesn't seem to be willing to do anything about it.
You just don't say "well just feel better" for a depressed person. That's just immature and doesn't feel like you understand the matter. Do you also say "just stop eating" for an overweight person or "just start sleeping better" for a person with sleeping disorder? A depressed person just doesn't go out doing things because you know why? Ta-dah, he/she is depressed. That's the entire GIST of the illness, for crying out loud.
LC, it's obvious you're hurting. But Benito is only trying to help, so it's not fair to lash out at him. I hope you can appreciate the effort he's making.
We can see how badly your depression is affecting you. It seems like you just want to throw in the towel on getting it addressed, like you've given up on any possible fix.
Don't give up.
I seriously can't. Because he is undermining my issues so hard. The fact that he uses people who have their sh1t worse than I do as an evidence to support his claim is alone a pretty big red flag that he doesn't know how to support people. That does NOTHING but make me feel like my issues are WORTHLESS to him. Like it means jacksh1t. It's better if he stays off, because those comments just aren't helpful.
Hi Holding,
Thanks for your comment.
I look at gingers comment earlier in this thread and can see that when some people are pushed into a corner, like her, with depression, a child to look after and job to uphold, she pushed through the hurt and pain to create a better life for herself. This is exactly the right frame of mind to have and the ONLY way to succeed when we are faced with such adversity.
No excuses or reasons why - Just a fight back to the life she wanted. Nothing would keep her down.
IMO LC has now fell into the - I'm a 'depressed person' - That’s my identity now. I have no power.
The problem is when people fall into the 'no power' game. Its easy to do this as the person takes no responsibility for their situation and would rather spend time and efforts researching the reason why, rather than living in the moment, accepting what is, and moving on regardless. What they fail to realise that irrelevant or not if they have the best excuse in the world.. It is still NO excuse for not living the life you want to live. The clock will keep on ticking regardless and its another day wasted focusing on reasons why and the only person who loses is LC.
Cant sleep / no energy / no passion = Fight through it, get up and make something happen.
Or take the easy route (give up) and blame something for feeling that way.
A few posts ago he were told this :
Thanks. It really was a flip of a switch. And reframing let me see how many positives this has. I'm not a match with this woman and I now believe I've been depressed due to our R. So it is better for both of us.
As he states above he believes the relationship MADE him depressed. So was it the chemical imbalance or was it the relationship? - Either way its once again pointing fingers away from himself.
I asked for factual information yesterday. But I received abuse back because it challenged his belief system. LC you seem to have gone from someone who is struggling to get out of bed until 4pm in the afternoon, to someone who is now a brain chemistry expert with no factual evidence to back this up. Once again as per your previous threads, it very much seems like you are trying to convince us/yourself of why you are feeling down - rather than putting in the hard effort required to heal because you get no pleasure from it.
Your reasoning is "I get no rewarding feeling from doing things that other people do" - are you an expert on the brain chemistry of others now?.. How do you know what others feel when they do something? - Is it not a possibility that people have felt similar to you and battled through the periods of no joy, until things have started to turn around?. How much chemicals are released in my brain when I started here? You have no idea - but still you think your situation is different - because it gives you a 'valid' reason to stay in the hole you are in.
You are giving people advise on other threads, about how bad it is to jump into another relationship straight away, and then on this thread you try to convince us that you have done more research that actually suggests a few random relationships will actually help the healing process. You are giving advise one way and then completely doing something different yourself, which others on here have already picked you up for.
LC you are so wrapped up in your own "story of me" and how this affliction you have is causing your brain to rob you of all of the pleasures in life that have convinced yourself that you have no choice/option/hope.
What it seems you want is people to feel sorry for you, while you go onto other peoples threads and give them advise that you are not following yourself.
Your posts jump from "I'm happy now I have learned about reframing", "I want to start acting" etc.., then it all changes a few days later and your back to square one and you cant even get out of bed and nothing makes you happy anymore, when a few days earlier you were saying you have never felt more alive and positive about the future.
There are people taking time out of their busy day to offer help and advise in the hope that it helps someone improve their situation.
Why don't you actually stop jumping from one idea to another, i.e. uni, acting, reframing, neurotransmitters etc.. Etc.. And just get back to basics.
Piece of paper and write down some goals and be honest with yourself and write down the steps it will take to reach of those goals and follow it through? - without blaming or pointing fingers at 'how hard it is' or 'how tired you are'?
In conclusion, if you want to a totally honest view on something you can get it if you really want it. i.e. You might think your diet is ok.. But a look the mirror will tell you how good it actually is - the muffin top says otherwise. Now its time to diet.
In relation to your life at the moment from the information you have given us; you don’t live in your own home, you have a job you don’t like, you don’t like spending time with friends and the mother of your children is with other man. That’s the factual (none judgemental) situation you are in.
Without blaming dopamine or depression, ask yourself why you are were you are.
This certainly might not be the helpful post you require as it doesn’t allow you to continue to wallow- But I know for a fact this is the approach that was given to me by other Vet members on this board, and despite the tears and lack of reward system in my brain I battled through and am very glad I did so. So I know the approach works.
Take it or leave it because its your life you are the one that feels powerless and depressed.
Requesting my threads to be taken down.
If you plan on helping people, I urge you to read what depression is. It is an illness, just like thyroid deficiency or cancer, it is not a "feeling" as you so eloquently put it.
Some people need to eat antidepressants for their entire life after it has been diagnosed. I have been DIAGNOSED and already eat an A/D that does not work.
If you plan on helping people, I urge you to read what depression is. It is an illness, just like thyroid deficiency or cancer, it is not a "feeling" as you so eloquently put it.
Just so you are aware.
I work for the Health Service. MENTAL health. It is part of my job.
I would like to wager a bet that I am more qualified than you and work with more people who suffer from depression - so stop keep telling me to read about it and that I don't understand. I live it.
How was your diagnosis confirmed? Through tests? Or simply through you explaining to your Dr you feel down enough times for him to accept that you are depressed?
I know how it all works.
The image you are portraying is the reason you cant do certain things and don't feel pleasure is because of an issue and chemical imbalance in your brain.. How was this confirmed?
I KNOW/WITNESS that a large percentage of people are able to recover from depression do so by working with an IC to identify areas of their life they are thankful for and focusing on activities and goals which gives them a purpose.
Focusing on the things they are thankful for in their lives is the key factor to initiate the recovery journey.
So like I said, apart from going to your Dr and explaining you feel down etc.. What medical feedback have you got that identifies a chemical imbalance in your system?
Lcause, what Benito is writing to you is very helpful. You dont help yourself if you keep looking for who to blame or what to blame for your situation. You may not like what Benito proposing but that is tough love. You may not be reponsible for what others (like you W) do to you but you can choose how you want it to affect you. Choosing to blame others and self pity destroys you. Rather when you choose to work on yourself and get yourself out of that hole you will come out a winner. You might not win her back but become a better person happier and more fulfilled.
Hi Holding,
Thanks for your comment.
I look at gingers comment earlier in this thread and can see that when some people are pushed into a corner, like her, with depression, a child to look after and job to uphold, she pushed through the hurt and pain to create a better life for herself. This is exactly the right frame of mind to have and the ONLY way to succeed when we are faced with such adversity.
No excuses or reasons why - Just a fight back to the life she wanted. Nothing would keep her down.
IMO LC has now fell into the - I'm a 'depressed person' - That’s my identity now. I have no power.
The problem is when people fall into the 'no power' game. Its easy to do this as the person takes no responsibility for their situation and would rather spend time and efforts researching the reason why, rather than living in the moment, accepting what is, and moving on regardless. What they fail to realise that irrelevant or not if they have the best excuse in the world.. It is still NO excuse for not living the life you want to live. The clock will keep on ticking regardless and its another day wasted focusing on reasons why and the only person who loses is LC.
Cant sleep / no energy / no passion = Fight through it, get up and make something happen.
Or take the easy route (give up) and blame something for feeling that way.
A few posts ago he were told this :
Thanks. It really was a flip of a switch. And reframing let me see how many positives this has. I'm not a match with this woman and I now believe I've been depressed due to our R. So it is better for both of us.
As he states above he believes the relationship MADE him depressed. So was it the chemical imbalance or was it the relationship? - Either way its once again pointing fingers away from himself.
I asked for factual information yesterday. But I received abuse back because it challenged his belief system. LC you seem to have gone from someone who is struggling to get out of bed until 4pm in the afternoon, to someone who is now a brain chemistry expert with no factual evidence to back this up. Once again as per your previous threads, it very much seems like you are trying to convince us/yourself of why you are feeling down - rather than putting in the hard effort required to heal because you get no pleasure from it.
Your reasoning is "I get no rewarding feeling from doing things that other people do" - are you an expert on the brain chemistry of others now?.. How do you know what others feel when they do something? - Is it not a possibility that people have felt similar to you and battled through the periods of no joy, until things have started to turn around?. How much chemicals are released in my brain when I started here? You have no idea - but still you think your situation is different - because it gives you a 'valid' reason to stay in the hole you are in.
You are giving people advise on other threads, about how bad it is to jump into another relationship straight away, and then on this thread you try to convince us that you have done more research that actually suggests a few random relationships will actually help the healing process. You are giving advise one way and then completely doing something different yourself, which others on here have already picked you up for.
LC you are so wrapped up in your own "story of me" and how this affliction you have is causing your brain to rob you of all of the pleasures in life that have convinced yourself that you have no choice/option/hope.
What it seems you want is people to feel sorry for you, while you go onto other peoples threads and give them advise that you are not following yourself.
Your posts jump from "I'm happy now I have learned about reframing", "I want to start acting" etc.., then it all changes a few days later and your back to square one and you cant even get out of bed and nothing makes you happy anymore, when a few days earlier you were saying you have never felt more alive and positive about the future.
There are people taking time out of their busy day to offer help and advise in the hope that it helps someone improve their situation.
Why don't you actually stop jumping from one idea to another, i.e. uni, acting, reframing, neurotransmitters etc.. Etc.. And just get back to basics.
Piece of paper and write down some goals and be honest with yourself and write down the steps it will take to reach of those goals and follow it through? - without blaming or pointing fingers at 'how hard it is' or 'how tired you are'?
In conclusion, if you want to a totally honest view on something you can get it if you really want it. i.e. You might think your diet is ok.. But a look the mirror will tell you how good it actually is - the muffin top says otherwise. Now its time to diet.
In relation to your life at the moment from the information you have given us; you don’t live in your own home, you have a job you don’t like, you don’t like spending time with friends and the mother of your children is with other man. That’s the factual (none judgemental) situation you are in.
Without blaming dopamine or depression, ask yourself why you are were you are.
This certainly might not be the helpful post you require as it doesn’t allow you to continue to wallow- But I know for a fact this is the approach that was given to me by other Vet members on this board, and despite the tears and lack of reward system in my brain I battled through and am very glad I did so. So I know the approach works.
Take it or leave it because its your life you are the one that feels powerless and depressed.
lcause reread this when you are calm. its not to hurt you but to help you. This is not an attack but very objective advice.
Haha. You should know better then than this. Best if you take your time elsewhere and let the professionals deal with my case. I didn't ask for your approval whether I have an imbalance or not. I let the next psychiatrist decide it.
Lcause, what Benito is writing to you is very helpful. You dont help yourself if you keep looking for who to blame or what to blame for your situation. You may not like what Benito proposing but that is tough love. You may not be reponsible for what others (like you W) do to you but you can choose how you want it to affect you. Choosing to blame others and self pity destroys you. Rather when you choose to work on yourself and get yourself out of that hole you will come out a winner. You might not win her back but become a better person happier and more fulfilled.
Exactly... None of us are getting commission for this.
Its in our own time to help people
If it wasn't the truth - It wouldn't hurt as much
Don't give up lcause. You are not a quitter. Look inside you and take time to cal yourself down. Focus on you and GAL, you will get better and your future will be brighter. Dont throw in the towel. Work on yourself and focus on yourself and become a better person. You will come out stronger and happier. It will work out for the best. Sometimes we focus so much on something and think our happiness is a function of a, b or c. We get that and we are not happy. So I urge you to focus on healint, building yourself, character, setting own goals and take it one day at a time. DON'T GIVE UP.
Haha. You should know better then than this. Best if you take your time elsewhere and let the professionals deal with my case. I didn't ask for your approval whether I have an imbalance or not. I let the next psychiatrist decide it.
Once again you ignore the question..
I didn't give you any approval for any imbalance.. YOU are telling US that you have a chemical imbalance.
You are being asked a simple question which you keep ignoring...
How was your diagnosis confirmed? Through tests? Or simply through you explaining to your Dr you feel down enough times for him to accept that you are depressed?
You should know they never do tests or the tests aren't accurate. I feel down always. The only way I feel "happy" is to either do something for someone else or convince myself that I'm a good dude. That's just shallow and never lasts. I can't start doing anything. Even doing dishes has felt a task I can't complete. F#ck, if there's a picture I need to hang to the wall it might seem like an impossible task for me. That's been like it for years. I have just pushed myself always doing those while feeling really bad. I can't start anything I'd enjoy to do. No matter how much I push myself. The masters I did took me 300 hours or so in total but still ranged for a year. No matter how hard I push myself, motivate myself, nothing is working. Believe me I've tried. For years. I have contemplated on committing a suicide every year at least once since I was 14. I have always felt this way. I accepted it as my normal and was always scared to be blamed if I go to therapy. Believe me I don't appreciate a single thing in my life. Air? Food? Water? They are normal, how can you appreciate them? Kids? Shallow happiness... thats all talk and it just does not help. Now stop asking because I don't need any pity partying any more and get to so something more productive with your day. I'm getting the meds one way or another.
Believe me I don't appreciate a single thing in my life.
Kids? Shallow happiness...
Wow.. just wow.
And you come on here posting about what influence the OM is going to have on your children.
Tadaa. Holy sh1t you claim to work at medical yet you don't see how depression affects. Some MOTHERS regret giving birth due to depression. Accept that it is a really complex ILLNESS that doesn't just leave with one month of therapy or positive thoughts!
lcause your focus on depression is making you feel helpless and paralyses you. How about trying to focus on small steps to help yourself instead. Don't imprison yourself by focusing on a condition because it only gets worse if you do
Well kids are the only thing I appreciate. D achieving something and S learning new things are certainly things that make me feel true happiness. The issue is that I only see them so often.
But now. I don't want to argue at these boards anymore because it makes me just feel more depressed. Read the backfire effect if you don't believe me. Requesting my threads to be deleted thank you.
Press the notify button on a cadet post and he will remove them for you
I seriously don't know what kicked this feeling on. This is the lowest I have ever felt. I've felt so much better already during this. I'm just so tired. I take WC breaks at work to nap for 5min... this is just so bad
Now I'm just sitting at work waiting to get enough motivation to walk home. Seriously. This too shall pass. This too shall pass.
I'm so sorry how I acted. My S is coming now. I'm gonna bury him to kisses and tickle him! It's so heartwarming to see him laugh. He always laughs. He definitely didn't get the pessimism from me. Always smiling.
Thanks for both of you. I seriously need more help. Going to talk about this to my therapist. This worries me so much.
Lcause
First of all, sending you a big big virtual hug.
I haven't been on the boards much lately and tend to skim a lot but your posts caught my eye today because they scream out your pain. I am so sorry you're in so much pain.
The fatigue you're describing say classic depression to me. I understand because I've been through this too. May I offer my perspective in case it's any use:
I was severely depressed for a few months this year. I have been clinically depressed before, ten years ago. At that time I was prescribed antidepressants and were on them for 6 months. They helped me function much better, but I swore never again, because I realised that while I stopped feeling the pain, the source of the pain never stopped. The argument is that the antidepressants allow you to cope to address the issues that are creating the imbalance, but I didn't do that - went off in lala-land and glossed over the difficulties that brought me there - therein lies the danger of medication. Pain has a lesson to teach. Take away the pain and you might forget the lesson, or fail to learn it altogether.
My belief is that unless your depression stems from a purely chemical imbalance, eg. postpartum depression, antidepressants will only treat the sympton of the depression and not the cause. The cause here is the mental response to the challenge before you.
On my therapist's advice I tried 3 antidepressants. None worked so I stopped. I don't regret it although it would have given me an easier time of it at the time. I have a neighbour who is in our sitch as well. She is on antidepressants and for a while I was totally envious of her and feeling badly about myself because whenever I saw her she looked bright and sparky whereas I was a gibbering mess. I saw her recently - the spark has worn off. The medication can give you false courage, false optimism.
A friend of my MIL's has been on antidepressants for the same reason for the last 10 years. She doesn't have the courage to look at the pain and work through it. Every time it hurts, she pops a pill. That's her choice. That's not a choice I want to make because to me, that's saying the pain owns her. I am going to own this pain. Pain can be crippling or transformative. You choose whether to live crippled or transformed.
To me, owning the pain is to work through the issues, accept what's happened and move on. It's going to take years. But better some years than the rest of my life sacrificed to the altar of this pain and misery.
I am NOT saying not to take the medication. I am saying that the medication will alleviate your symptoms, but do not expect it to solve your problems. That's the hard work - work which requires you to change how you are approaching your situation.
I speak as someone who recognises your thought processes very well. I hope you don't mind my making this observation, but you and I are negative people. We have negative thought processes. I am battling daily to change this. And I am changing. It is possible. Just this morning I was remembering a reaction I had to some snotty nosed kid a couple of years ago. Now I would totally shrug it off. It was interesting to me - I am becoming a different person.
You are clearly extremely unhappy. Which is understandable given our sitches. But you don't have to stay in this place. To climb out of this black hole, you have to do some re-wiring of your brain. Reframe your thinking, perspectives. It's a struggle. You will essentially have to wrestle with yourself. And nobody is more well-matched to you, than you.
I have a lot of pain still, but I am not unhappy the way I was a few months ago. This has been a revelation to me - you can be in pain but have faith that things will get better. Expect things to get better.
I wonder if you're struggling because you're not quite ready to accept the situation, because this was the case for me. For months I heard the same advice, not only from this board but everyone who knew about my sitch - move on, GAL, practice PMA etc. I understood it intellectually, but not emotionally. Because I wasn't ready. Until I was emotionally ready, it was all just words to me. You must be patient, not just with your sitch, but with yourself. I was getting frustrated with my life all the time - I was doing all the right things, so why weren't things getting better? Why was I still obsessing? Answer - I wasn't ready to let go. So just sit with it and hold on to our ragged obsession for a while, forgive ourselves for doing so, and try again. Just don't get mad at yourself for not doing it already.
For me, I wasn't ready until I hit rock bottom. You will know once you hit rock bottom. It will be the worst place in your life. But I was surprised to experience some relief at the same time - because I recognised I was rock bottom, I knew things couldn't get worse. And once you hit rock bottom, there's no way else but up. One painful inch at a time.
I am looking into reading things about changing how you think. A book I found yesterday is madly fascinating - 'Mental Chemistry'. Only got as far as the first chapter, but wow - the implications for people with negative thinking is nothing short of astounding.
LC, anti-depressants are more art than science. I think what is abundantly clear from your posts is that what you are on right now is NOT WORKING for YOU. So go back to your doctor and get him/ her to CHANGE it to something else.
One of my coworkers spent a year getting that sorted with his doc. They finally got it dialed in and he felt so much better that he decided he didn't need them anymore. He quit cold turkey, which no one should EVER do. Tapering off under the supervision of your doctor is OK, but when you just quit taking A/D's it can alter your body chemistry in dramatic ways. Anyway he spun into terrible mania and depression and ended up hospitalized and out of work for 6 months. He tried going back to his previous prescriptions and they no longer worked. He spent another year with his doctor establishing a new setup that worked for him and he finally got more or less back to normal.
My point is that it can take quite a while to find the right anti-depressant, what works for one person does not work for another and even in some cases like with my coworker, what worked previously may not work later. You clearly do not feel "right" or "normal" and you should by now, so go back to your doc!
very good advice you got there Lcause. Ypu will be fine. make a decision on whether or not to go on meds for depression but also work on yourself. We need to learn how to change our thoughts. The greatest battle we have is managing thoughts because every bad action comes from our thoughts.
[quote=lcause]You should know they never do tests or the tests aren't accurate.
I don't want to belabor the ^^^point, but I was tested for depression after my dad died. I assumed I was simply in grief and that it would resolve in time. But after my youngest asked me if I would "always be sad", I made an appointment with a psychiatrist.
He handed me a sheet of questions and discussed each one at length. Told me I scored 17/20 for major depressive episode.
Tests do exist. (Yes, LC I'm sure you'd score similarly.) My point is not to make you wrong, but to suggest a lot of confirmation bias & so maybe your outlook has that too.
LC, you said your doctor is not helping you and that you would like to see another. You don't need me to agree (but I sure do).
Just explain what has not worked, and what you are looking for, and maybe maybe what you think.
Also, any chance you'd consider ECT? It's very different than it was in the 60's.
I feel down always. The only way I feel "happy" is to either do something for someone else or convince myself that I'm a good dude. That's just shallow and never lasts.
Yes you said the "only way" you feel happy is if the recipient praises and thanks you for the task you did.
Yes you say that's shallow (b/c it relies on external validation from others) and cannot last unless they are praising you nonstop 24/7. Agreed. So that part is clear.
Convincing yourself that you deserve and can be happy, seems like a worthy goal we all have and all work at. Can you work on believing it?
What about that workshop I mentioned to you, in Philadelphia? Do you recall that? I have flown in from Alaska, Texas, California, to help participants so I obviously think it's worth it. Several DBers have gone and all said they got a lot out of it. "Life changing" is a phrase used often.
Sometimes it takes continuous work to make a breakthrough instead of just weekly T, even with a great T.
I would assume meds are going to be part of your recovery anyway, and that's fine. Been there, done that.
I can't start doing anything. Even doing dishes has felt a task I can't complete. F#ck, if there's a picture I need to hang to the wall it might seem like an impossible task for me.
This ^^resonates more than you may know.
FWIW, I'm living alone for the first time in my life. My mom's painting is still not hung up and I have not filed the ton of papers in my "office" even though I finally got a filing cabinet --my sports car was too small to pack it so I just didn't get one till my sister forced me.
I've been here for months. Small things seem to defeat me ("oh, I don't have filing tabs...SO I can't do the paperwork for the divorce...so all those papers in that room will be....there..."
"Oh, Mom's painting is heavy and requires 2 people to hang...and only my dog is here at the moment so unless she gets opposable thumbs soon...guess I'll just leave it where it is in my bedroom on the floor, instead of asking one of my loved ones to help...")
If not for the seizures I had last fall, I'd for sure be on AD's. In lieu of them or in addition, I have a great T and LC, the hardest thing is that I have committed to taking her advice even when I absolutely do NOT feel like it. Which is mostly the case
It's a classic case of Being Stuck.
No, LC, pushing myself out there is not a "Cure". OMG I really get that. The "up" I feel is temporary but isn't that always the case?
I mean, my mind races with different thoughts and I don't consistently think "one thought" b/c we are in dynamic lives. No such thing as being happy, always.
Our moods never last - we encounter new tasks, weather, events, people, etc.
I think happy people are resilient and resilience is a skill we can develop like a muscle, we can exercise it.
Sheryl Sandberg cites research that supports this theme in her book "Option B". (She's the Facebook CEO who lost her h suddenly, 2 years ago.)
LC, I'm still very hurt and angry and I have to redirect my thoughts (CBT) daily and sometimes hourly. I was married to h for 2/3 of my life. Marriage is a hard habit to break.
LC, we have a bit more in common than you realize. Maybe it's b/c I'm older and the severe depression I had when my dad died, illuminated my path to healing.
The trigger for me getting help was my then 4 y/o d. Such a sweet little one, like yours is.
You do have little ones who need you to show them what it's like to be hurt deeply, and to heal and recover anyhow.
If you don't think or want to do this for yourself, do it for them.
Since you derive happiness from doing for others, Do for your kids. In their way they will thank you, and you don't want to go on in life knowing you taught them that depression was "just the way it is" for them.
(When I imagine my kid's in their own heartbreak, and then imagine their defeat, or worse... I shudder. And I get my a$$ in gear. If that helps you, use it.)
Know that Someday each of your children will face a setback, or suffer heartbreak.
Show them how to heal. Show them that happiness is worth creating.
You can do this.
PS
the local DivorceCare group I'm in, showed a video about divorce.
The analogy was like a tornado had come in and wiped out our houses. A few items were recoverable but basically we have to rebuild from foundation up.
It just looks like so much devastation. So we hunt down some tools and we get an architect (- a good therapist -a helpful doctor-a guiding minister or all 3)
and we re-build.
Maybe the new house will be stronger or better designed so that even a tornado won't wipe it out.
Or maybe we will keep the tools nearby in case the house needs repairs along the way, like all homes do.
LC, see about the DivorceCare group in your area. It's a national group so every area has one. And hey, we don't sit around moping. We do talk about our pain (no glossing over) and we help each other out and we socialize and we all "get it".
It's practically free.
A stunning looking 32 y/o woman came last week and she literally could barely speak.
Turns out she has 2 little kids, and her h is moving out on Saturday, he's just taking his clothes.
She's taking the kids to a birthday party while he moves out. So when they return to the home I guess she gets to tell the kids daddy is gone & not coming back. (Yeah, I know, what a coward).
Point is, LC, she is very depressed. Said it was the first time she "could share" anything b/c it's too painful. But knowing we get it, helped.
Check it out. Can't hurt.
My therapist suggested me to avoid these forums after I told about my recent crash to the rock bottom. It has probably been helping a bit. Just wanted to come here to show appreciation for the people who have commented and let you know I value your input highly. I want to apologize my bad behavior, especially towards you B - if you still read this.
Overall feeling a bit better again. No change in meds, therapy has been helpful. Setting goals and started doing HIIT (30s - 90s rest for 20min). I think it has had an effect on my sleep and I'm inclined to think that prolonged running has actually been detrimental due to cortisol increase. But I'm not an expert; HIIT just feels better afterwards.
Lcause
First of all, sending you a big big virtual hug.
I haven't been on the boards much lately and tend to skim a lot but your posts caught my eye today because they scream out your pain. I am so sorry you're in so much pain.
The fatigue you're describing say classic depression to me. I understand because I've been through this too. May I offer my perspective in case it's any use:
I was severely depressed for a few months this year. I have been clinically depressed before, ten years ago. At that time I was prescribed antidepressants and were on them for 6 months. They helped me function much better, but I swore never again, because I realised that while I stopped feeling the pain, the source of the pain never stopped. The argument is that the antidepressants allow you to cope to address the issues that are creating the imbalance, but I didn't do that - went off in lala-land and glossed over the difficulties that brought me there - therein lies the danger of medication. Pain has a lesson to teach. Take away the pain and you might forget the lesson, or fail to learn it altogether.
My belief is that unless your depression stems from a purely chemical imbalance, eg. postpartum depression, antidepressants will only treat the sympton of the depression and not the cause. The cause here is the mental response to the challenge before you.
On my therapist's advice I tried 3 antidepressants. None worked so I stopped. I don't regret it although it would have given me an easier time of it at the time. I have a neighbour who is in our sitch as well. She is on antidepressants and for a while I was totally envious of her and feeling badly about myself because whenever I saw her she looked bright and sparky whereas I was a gibbering mess. I saw her recently - the spark has worn off. The medication can give you false courage, false optimism.
A friend of my MIL's has been on antidepressants for the same reason for the last 10 years. She doesn't have the courage to look at the pain and work through it. Every time it hurts, she pops a pill. That's her choice. That's not a choice I want to make because to me, that's saying the pain owns her. I am going to own this pain. Pain can be crippling or transformative. You choose whether to live crippled or transformed.
To me, owning the pain is to work through the issues, accept what's happened and move on. It's going to take years. But better some years than the rest of my life sacrificed to the altar of this pain and misery.
I am NOT saying not to take the medication. I am saying that the medication will alleviate your symptoms, but do not expect it to solve your problems. That's the hard work - work which requires you to change how you are approaching your situation.
I speak as someone who recognises your thought processes very well. I hope you don't mind my making this observation, but you and I are negative people. We have negative thought processes. I am battling daily to change this. And I am changing. It is possible. Just this morning I was remembering a reaction I had to some snotty nosed kid a couple of years ago. Now I would totally shrug it off. It was interesting to me - I am becoming a different person.
You are clearly extremely unhappy. Which is understandable given our sitches. But you don't have to stay in this place. To climb out of this black hole, you have to do some re-wiring of your brain. Reframe your thinking, perspectives. It's a struggle. You will essentially have to wrestle with yourself. And nobody is more well-matched to you, than you.
I have a lot of pain still, but I am not unhappy the way I was a few months ago. This has been a revelation to me - you can be in pain but have faith that things will get better. Expect things to get better.
I wonder if you're struggling because you're not quite ready to accept the situation, because this was the case for me. For months I heard the same advice, not only from this board but everyone who knew about my sitch - move on, GAL, practice PMA etc. I understood it intellectually, but not emotionally. Because I wasn't ready. Until I was emotionally ready, it was all just words to me. You must be patient, not just with your sitch, but with yourself. I was getting frustrated with my life all the time - I was doing all the right things, so why weren't things getting better? Why was I still obsessing? Answer - I wasn't ready to let go. So just sit with it and hold on to our ragged obsession for a while, forgive ourselves for doing so, and try again. Just don't get mad at yourself for not doing it already.
For me, I wasn't ready until I hit rock bottom. You will know once you hit rock bottom. It will be the worst place in your life. But I was surprised to experience some relief at the same time - because I recognised I was rock bottom, I knew things couldn't get worse. And once you hit rock bottom, there's no way else but up. One painful inch at a time.
I am looking into reading things about changing how you think. A book I found yesterday is madly fascinating - 'Mental Chemistry'. Only got as far as the first chapter, but wow - the implications for people with negative thinking is nothing short of astounding.
Thank you 2016sux for taking your time and writing to my thread. It means a lot to me and I'll reciprocate your hugs
I think you need them too. I am sorry to hear about your depression and pain.
Yes, I agree wholly and completely with your point - A/Ds shouldn't be used as a "gimmick" to only feel better but I still think people might require them to overcome the initial fear/anxiety/mental block so they can actually advance on their path. It is true that some people just accept it and never does any work. My own biggest problem is the negative attitude or feeling of worthlessness. It's hard to motivate myself to do anything because I immediately think it's not going to help me anyways. I might be quitting too fast and it could require a year of hard self-pushing before the effects would be properly enjoyable for myself.
I think most people have incorrectly understood me - my depression/pessimism has been there for ages, not since the BD. Personally, of course on subconscious level I'm still hurt about BD, but the bigger pain comes from the inability to do anything meaningful with my life. That's where it has come from. I view everything so utterly negative - e.g. my education. I feel that it does not help me at all and I spent years for nothing in university. Most people say university is mainly there for you to study how to learn rather than get 100% of the skills required for your job - so far it just doesn't feel that way.
In fact, reconciliation is currently the last thing on my mind. To put it blunt, I don't know if I could ever kiss those lips again that have been wrapped around another guy's thing.
It just isn't the same as falling in love with a new girl.
LC, anti-depressants are more art than science. I think what is abundantly clear from your posts is that what you are on right now is NOT WORKING for YOU. So go back to your doctor and get him/ her to CHANGE it to something else.
One of my coworkers spent a year getting that sorted with his doc. They finally got it dialed in and he felt so much better that he decided he didn't need them anymore. He quit cold turkey, which no one should EVER do. Tapering off under the supervision of your doctor is OK, but when you just quit taking A/D's it can alter your body chemistry in dramatic ways. Anyway he spun into terrible mania and depression and ended up hospitalized and out of work for 6 months. He tried going back to his previous prescriptions and they no longer worked. He spent another year with his doctor establishing a new setup that worked for him and he finally got more or less back to normal.
My point is that it can take quite a while to find the right anti-depressant, what works for one person does not work for another and even in some cases like with my coworker, what worked previously may not work later. You clearly do not feel "right" or "normal" and you should by now, so go back to your doc!
Thanks for pointing this out AS and this is what I've understood as well. However my doc doesn't seem to be willing to (at least yet) go further. I need to rely on private sector healthcare which is expensive. So, I keep pushing and really trying.
very good advice you got there Lcause. Ypu will be fine. make a decision on whether or not to go on meds for depression but also work on yourself. We need to learn how to change our thoughts. The greatest battle we have is managing thoughts because every bad action comes from our thoughts.
Thanks
I sure hope so too. I am already on meds (SSRI) but I think I hit some kind of a plateau after the first month or so and they don't seem to work similarly anymore. Also, I'm really not that keen on the side effects of SSRIs (e.g. emotional indifference/not caring about anything).
[quote=lcause]You should know they never do tests or the tests aren't accurate.
I don't want to belabor the ^^^point, but I was tested for depression after my dad died. I assumed I was simply in grief and that it would resolve in time. But after my youngest asked me if I would "always be sad", I made an appointment with a psychiatrist.
He handed me a sheet of questions and discussed each one at length. Told me I scored 17/20 for major depressive episode.
Tests do exist. (Yes, LC I'm sure you'd score similarly.) My point is not to make you wrong, but to suggest a lot of confirmation bias & so maybe your outlook has that too.
LC, you said your doctor is not helping you and that you would like to see another. You don't need me to agree (but I sure do).
Just explain what has not worked, and what you are looking for, and maybe maybe what you think.
Also, any chance you'd consider ECT? It's very different than it was in the 60's.
I feel down always. The only way I feel "happy" is to either do something for someone else or convince myself that I'm a good dude. That's just shallow and never lasts.
Yes you said the "only way" you feel happy is if the recipient praises and thanks you for the task you did.
Yes you say that's shallow (b/c it relies on external validation from others) and cannot last unless they are praising you nonstop 24/7. Agreed. So that part is clear.
Convincing yourself that you deserve and can be happy, seems like a worthy goal we all have and all work at. Can you work on believing it?
What about that workshop I mentioned to you, in Philadelphia? Do you recall that? I have flown in from Alaska, Texas, California, to help participants so I obviously think it's worth it. Several DBers have gone and all said they got a lot out of it. "Life changing" is a phrase used often.
Sometimes it takes continuous work to make a breakthrough instead of just weekly T, even with a great T.
I would assume meds are going to be part of your recovery anyway, and that's fine. Been there, done that.
I can't start doing anything. Even doing dishes has felt a task I can't complete. F#ck, if there's a picture I need to hang to the wall it might seem like an impossible task for me.
This ^^resonates more than you may know.
FWIW, I'm living alone for the first time in my life. My mom's painting is still not hung up and I have not filed the ton of papers in my "office" even though I finally got a filing cabinet --my sports car was too small to pack it so I just didn't get one till my sister forced me.
I've been here for months. Small things seem to defeat me ("oh, I don't have filing tabs...SO I can't do the paperwork for the divorce...so all those papers in that room will be....there..."
"Oh, Mom's painting is heavy and requires 2 people to hang...and only my dog is here at the moment so unless she gets opposable thumbs soon...guess I'll just leave it where it is in my bedroom on the floor, instead of asking one of my loved ones to help...")
If not for the seizures I had last fall, I'd for sure be on AD's. In lieu of them or in addition, I have a great T and LC, the hardest thing is that I have committed to taking her advice even when I absolutely do NOT feel like it. Which is mostly the case
It's a classic case of Being Stuck.
No, LC, pushing myself out there is not a "Cure". OMG I really get that. The "up" I feel is temporary but isn't that always the case?
I mean, my mind races with different thoughts and I don't consistently think "one thought" b/c we are in dynamic lives. No such thing as being happy, always.
Our moods never last - we encounter new tasks, weather, events, people, etc.
I think happy people are resilient and resilience is a skill we can develop like a muscle, we can exercise it.
Sheryl Sandberg cites research that supports this theme in her book "Option B". (She's the Facebook CEO who lost her h suddenly, 2 years ago.)
LC, I'm still very hurt and angry and I have to redirect my thoughts (CBT) daily and sometimes hourly. I was married to h for 2/3 of my life. Marriage is a hard habit to break.
LC, we have a bit more in common than you realize. Maybe it's b/c I'm older and the severe depression I had when my dad died, illuminated my path to healing.
The trigger for me getting help was my then 4 y/o d. Such a sweet little one, like yours is.
You do have little ones who need you to show them what it's like to be hurt deeply, and to heal and recover anyhow.
If you don't think or want to do this for yourself, do it for them.
Since you derive happiness from doing for others, Do for your kids. In their way they will thank you, and you don't want to go on in life knowing you taught them that depression was "just the way it is" for them.
(When I imagine my kid's in their own heartbreak, and then imagine their defeat, or worse... I shudder. And I get my a$$ in gear. If that helps you, use it.)
Know that Someday each of your children will face a setback, or suffer heartbreak.
Show them how to heal. Show them that happiness is worth creating.
You can do this.
Thanks 25. I meant tests done on neurotransmitter levels. The cheaper tests are not reliable and the more expensive brain scans etc. are not conducted unless there's a suspicion of something like Parkinson's or similar, at least not on public sector. Same goes for ECT. You too seem a bit convinced that this feeling is due to BD but I don't think it is. I'm mostly interested in fixing myself rather than my marriage and that is what is frustrating me.
I'll try to convince myself to be worth of happiness of course. But until I stop feeling worthless otherwise (i.e. actually get a meaningful job or at least find my passion which to strive for), I don't think I can achieve that. I do agree with you on the resilience. Not every day is filled with happiness nor should be.
From your points, it sounds like you've been feeling the same way, yet you have been able to act and do. I don't know what it is but maybe it is that I'm not being able simply give myself TIME. Maybe that is the underlying issue to all my problems. I want the fix right now and if I don't get it I start to feel frustrated and the anxiety, stress and even physical sensations (legs get weaker etc) kick in. Currently I do feel that the chronic sleep deprivation has had a big effect on me. Maybe I really do need to understand it's fully over so I don't feel the urgency of seeing the results... I don't know. Subconscious is a rather amazing and at the same time very demoralizing thing.
Trust me, my kids are currently the only thing I'm really trying to fix myself. If I didn't have kids, I would have probably just forfeited immediately on trying to get better and probably leaned on taking drugs or alcohol. Kids are the reason I go to therapy because I'm just not feeling worthy enough otherwise.
Don't get me wrong, I don't think anyone would notice that I'm severely depressed outside. I said about it in work and people were jaw-dropped. They always kept me as this outgoing social guy (because I talk, joke, entertain, kid around, am energetic etc at work). The same goes with my kids, I'm much more playful (like on a completely another level) in comparison to my XW. I also talk to S in affectionate manner a lot more than my XW does/did. I think I got that from my mother since she is still at the age of 60 crawling on the floor with S and having some sort of crawling competitions. She also plays with D for hours and hours every time.
Dont worry pal - we were only ever here to help you out.
We are all in this together.
Chin up
Cant kiss those lips after being wrapped around another guys thing!!
LOL.. brilliant.
How do you think he feels getting yours? Lol
Haha B
Doubt he thinks anything. He probably has a high self-confidence. Went to ex-tempore take my kids out for a while, my XW suggested that I could come there to play with them if I want to. I said taking them out is fine. Then when I took them back and was leaving, she said "so you don't want to come feed S?". I checked the clock (had my running gear on so not really hurry into anywhere) and agreed. Then she started offering me tea/coffee or food.
If I was dating a woman who is still going through her divorce, I wouldn't be really ok with her offering food etc. to her ex-husband or actively asking him to come to the home to even play with the kids. Maybe I'm just insecure in comparison. In my opinion, that isn't really even fair. ALTHOUGH, I would NEVER date a woman who is going through a divorce or mere months after the divorce is legal.
Maybe that's just her easing it for kids? For me? These things always make me wonder that is she really expecting us to stay closest friends like this... Would be nice to read the WASs minds. I wonder what she thinks when I start to date again and bring my new gf to kid exchanges. Lol. Well, that's in the distant future.
Haha B
Doubt he thinks anything. He probably has a high self-confidence. Went to ex-tempore take my kids out for a while, my XW suggested that I could come there to play with them if I want to. I said taking them out is fine. Then when I took them back and was leaving, she said "so you don't want to come feed S?". I checked the clock (had my running gear on so not really hurry into anywhere) and agreed. Then she started offering me tea/coffee or food.
If I was dating a woman who is still going through her divorce, I wouldn't be really ok with her offering food etc. to her ex-husband or actively asking him to come to the home to even play with the kids.
it's one thing to date someone with an ex and another thing if they are IN the process of divorce. I won't date anyone who has not been legally divorced or separated at least a year (and only then, if the divorce is just dragging on for legal reasons). Why would I want to be a rebound? Yeah , I know the APs are but I'm not one of them.
Maybe that's just her easing it for kids? For me? These things always make me wonder that is she really expecting us to stay closest friends like this..
. Would be nice to read the WASs minds.
would it? Sometimes I thank God I did not read it...
I wonder what she thinks when I start to date again and bring my new gf to kid exchanges. Lol. Well, that's in the distant future.
As you know, we don't just use a person for the effect they might have on our exw.
I did "Borrow" a guy in high school once, when my recently ex bf was parading around with his new sleazy gf at a party.
It was hilarious (& the "borrowed bf" knew) but yeah, it was high school.
Okay LC, I want to make a few points and hope you will take them in more, rather than rebut them, okay? Just pretend it's an article someone wrote for your consideration...
imo, for all of us including you, there is GRIEF and BEREAVEMENT b/c our m's are probably ending and often, there is OM/OW involved. Rejection hurts us deeply. We won't be the same, though many say they end up in better r's later. That only helps us in the moment, to a point.
Grief/bereavement can add to, or become clinical depression. There is a difference and I think most of us get that.
Whereas grief is a process from which we expect to eventually emerge,
clinical depression bogs us down, keeping us stuck until if and when we get too sick and tired of feeling sick and tired, to remain down.
When my mother died, I was in acute profound grief, the likes of which I had never known. I had a good T and trusted that in time, I'd heal AND besides, I did not have small children or a new job that required me to get a kickstart.
Whereas when my dad died, I had a new job and little kids, (who were watching) AND I began to have intrusive thoughts that were unproductive, bad nightmares or no sleep, and I could tell I was not merely processing my grief, but doing some "stinking thinking". The CBT was not clicking for me.
I saw an MD, took AD's for some months and the meds "unlocked" something that had been holding me back, so the CBT (cognitive behavioral therapy) started kicking in.
IF the AD's had not worked I would have tried ECT or anything else available. And I'd always keep up with the new treatments, etc.
Now in my new situation -I had a life changing health episode, which makes me not want to medicate for it unless I really have to (but I would if I did).
I moved cross country, have lost a fortune in assets, my long marriage of 35 years is ending and for the first time in decades, all my kids are out of the house.
I have not spoken to my h but once in the past year, and he's not talking with the kids so it's like he went to Mars or died (but no one brings me food!)
that's a lot^^^. Yeah, I'm depressed but like you said, I am DOING what I hope and believe will help, because now from this day forward is the rest of my life.
I don't want to be sad or inert and I feel as if Deciding Not to be, matters. I feel as if there is a level of choice involved.
Your point is that you have pretty much always been this way. Correct? And either because of a chemical imbalance and or learned negativity, you cannot seem to "snap out of it", correct?
BTW Do you have family members who are depressive? If so, What are they like now?
What helped them? Did they sort of surrender to it and walk around in a gray cloud all the time? I'm asking.
Were you this way when your w fell in love with you? How Were you acting differently then?
- ECT is not to be dismissed so quickly, my friend. It is often used for what appears to be intractable negative thought patterns, and chronic depression.
It helps when patients are also doing CBT, so that the blocks can be removed and let the CBT work.
So my question is what your CBT work is like?
((( )))
I'm sorry if I seem like someone who is refusing to understand your message. I definitely do value your input and that's not my intention. I just start to analyze my own situation based on your message each time
so please take it as that you are helping me by making me realise it more and more.
I didn't mean it as if I'd be using someone to have an effect. Just that it feels like she thinks we're all happy in this circle and I stay always as a friend or this "babysitter". Of course not. Sooner or later the communication turns only into all related about kids and I'm definitely not going to go there to play with them, but take them with me. Because each and every time my XW comes there as well and talks to me, answers for my D instead of letting D answer herself, sharing stories etc. What's up with that? I want to be with my kids, I have zero interest in you... I don't want your food, I can cook my own. Etc.
I am sorry for you. You have gone through a lot of pain. I admire you how strong you are. Especially that you are helping others while having your own issues. Thank you.
I don't think I've been THIS bad always. I've always been insecure but when we met I was still really believing in my future. I have always been the one who is expected to be succesfull in my family (only one with uni degree, just generally could understand things without really studying) yet I let everyone down. Expectations suck. Yes, I can't just seem to snap out of it. This is where my CBT is mostly related. I have to find ways to enjoy of what I'm doing for myself rather than always thinking of what others would appreciate in me. I don't know where this stems from. Maybe my parents weren't affectionate enough but that just seems odd. Also we are trying to target my thoughts of things beforehand and try to get me to experience and do things so I'll notice it's not as bad as I thought beforehand. However this is just hard for me.
I don't have family members who are depressed. My brother is kind of - he only plays games the entire day. Sleeps till 2-3pm and only visits some friends every now and then. He has an illness (IBD) that prevents him from doing work he studied for. He left his long term R to play more games and lives again at my parents at the age of 25. He's studying something now though at evenings.
I'm all for ECT but again it's not done so easily in my country. I don't have money to go to the private sector.
I will be fine though. I know it. This is just a part of my life and it'll pass. For the first time in ages I slept well last night. 8 hours straight.
(((( ))))
OM is going to be introduced to D this weekend(?). Didn't hear it from XW yet though. This is probably going to hit hard.
It's funny how many realizations you get while reading these boards. Even if I think I'm fine without her, reading what Leah wrote for Mark made me realize things and got me feeling really bad. Well, I hope OM is giving her that true love feeling. I think my wife is going to be happier with someone else since I never felt that "heart flutter" with her, outside of the beginning of course. I can definitely see it now how LLs could have fixed that though.
Then I read Joseph's posts and those lists are very good to follow. That's how I am definitely trying to be in the future. Now I have the chance to date as much as I want to and I'm going to get to the point where I'm perfectly happy on my own thus I'm just not going to be needy at all
It's amazing how much one can learn about Rs and, well, about the life itself, in here. Thanks for the shared wisdom. I feel much better about my future and I thank my XW for sparking the interest in me to at least try to improve myself. I have a feeling that at some point I will be very grateful because I doubt this would have happened without BD, at least not on the same level.
I met some nice people at the class yesterday. Couldn't join the first few due to work and kids. Too bad they are much older than I am so there is no "true" friendship. Thought it felt good to talk to strangers in a bit more depth. Funny how they were so interested in my situation, which I tried very hard to keep as my own information but felt that lying is worse. I feel it's a buzzkill to talk about it but for some reason people are really interested in either supporting or fixing things.
I had plans for tonight and XW just suddenly asked if I could watch the kids in half an hour as she has a doctor's appointment. I told her no because I have plans and asked that did she really got the info about it an hour prior to the appointment? Apparently yes. Don't know if I was being a scumbag as I could have probably made time for it but that would have prevented me from going to GAL today. Well - I got fired from the husband job so I guess it's not my task anymore. She just said "ok, I'll take them with me". Of course I would have if I was still her husband.
A co-worker told me today that he divorced ten years ago. He hasn't seen a single girl since. Apparently his XW has lived with 4 different guys since. Holy cow. He said he thinks it affects his kids lives. Made me feel a bit bad for him but he said he just doesn't see any value in relationships anymore and wants to rather be alone. Good for him. He seems rather happy and content. It also made me feel a bit bad; Hopefully I don't end up in a situation like that because I definitely want to share my life with someone later on. For the curious: his XW has never approached him or even hinted about recon.
Also I have to add: my cousin is going through a hard time in her marriage and she has talked about it to me. I think I have now contributed in saving their marriage as she said that she's feeling more and more about trying to work it out. I suggested her to buy DR, 5LLs etc. and have shared about happiness etc. stuff I've learned so far. She is a borderline WAS (even to the point where she said she doesn't know if she ever loved her H!) but the past 2 months she's been GALing and taking time for herself from my suggestion (as per the book). Her H is also making improvements and learned about validation and emotional needs. They now understand why it is bad to be codependent. I feel very good about this, to be honest.
Spent the weekend with an old friend, we were fishing pretty much non-stop at the sea. Sauna&beer&swimming in very cold water. Life hasn't felt as good in ages. Boy was I tired last night. Going to repeat that in few weeks but next time I get to see his wife and kids too
My XW got hospitalized for the weekend apparently. I said I was sorry and asked if she's fine. She shared quite a bit about her issues which seemed odd to me but I told I wish her well and hopefully it gets better soon. Not a life threatening condition thankfully.
I've spent a bit of my time reflecting back and I have no clue whether I should try to DB anymore or not. Do I have hope? Is everything really lost? Would a new R with her be better? Will their R with OM be better than ours was? How could I even compete against the OM? Will I ever find anyone else? Could her mind change since she was so adamant in continuing her life without me? Could I ever get over these mental pictures I have if I think about it? Is there really a purpose for saving this marriage? Why am I so lost and WHY I can't seem to find any CONCLUSION for these questions? And why am I so keen on KNOWING the answers - at all? I've come to terms with my past mistakes though and I'm not going to be dwelling on them anymore. That has no purpose.
Overall I'm just feeling rather good about myself now, thinking about her less and less. I know for a fact that I'm going to be a better partner in my next relationship. Things that I took previously for granted are not going to be taken for granted anymore, lol! I feel like a new man - I'm so much more emotionally open, e.g. I hug my D much more now too and that comes without any thought or "forcing/remembering to hug her". Something just has changed in my automatic thinking. I just do it and she seems to like it when daddy hugs.
My relationship with her has changed by leaps and bounds since BD. I also noticed that I spend less time at PC, even when I'm alone. When I'm home I pretty much prefer reading books rather than spending time at PC. I also cleaned up the apartment at Friday and actually felt good about it, wat? Listening to music while doing dishes or cleaning up really motivates me.
Now I know my life will be good. I feel like a new man on so many levels. My friend was constantly joking around that he could take some photos of me and make a profile for me in Tinder. Lol. Even though he was joking, he seemed a bit off when I told him I think I'm not ready yet. I'm not.
Hopefully all of you had a great weekend!
For the curious: his XW has never approached him or even hinted about recon.
That is by far the smallest sample size I have ever seen
I feel very good about this, to be honest
And you should! Well done for passing it forward. Well done, LC
I've spent a bit of my time reflecting back and I have no clue whether I should try to DB anymore or not.
What would you be doing differently if you weren't DB'ing anymore? You seem to be doing just fine.. Why not continue down that path? You say yourself that you are a new man. A better parent, spend less time in front of the computer. Maybe all that is due to your DB approach of life. Why not continue your improvements?
That is by far the smallest sample size I have ever seen
Haha! That was not supposed to be any kind of a proof but I felt like after sharing a story like that, I'm supposed to give the "end result".
And you should! Well done for passing it forward. Well done, LC
Thanks! She just thanked me today and said my words are describing her life like 100%. Well, one marriage (probably) saved as an outcome, even if it wasn't mine.
What would you be doing differently if you weren't DB'ing anymore? You seem to be doing just fine.. Why not continue down that path? You say yourself that you are a new man. A better parent, spend less time in front of the computer. Maybe all that is due to your DB approach of life. Why not continue your improvements?
I will continue trying to improve. I meant it any more, not anymore, hehe. Like should I do something more. MWD describes so many tools but I feel that my marriage is so far from all that.
I was driving back home now at midnight and Pink - What About Us was playing on the radio. Got to admit, I shed a few tears.
Journaling:
I agreed to take a bigger part in my D's hobby for the weekend and it made me feel good. Previously I shifted all that every time for my XW when it was "our" turn but now I want to beat my "fear" and do it myself. She actually texted me and said that she can take D this weekend to the hobby but I denied and thanked her saying I'm fine.
This all seems so off at times. It's like I would be living the life of someone else. Emotions shift from high to low so quickly. Even going as far as feeling the rejection, remembering how my messages would be the first ones to be answered and now I can see her status going online and back to last seen without even an answer to me after I've sent a message to her (to something what she actually asked first and I had to provide a question as an answer). It's so off how this can happen in just mere months. I didn't mention this earlier but during one of the clingy moments my XW said she was still really happily married to me when she got pregnant. So she hasn't felt this way for THAT long. I have a suspicion that OM played a huge role in the D ("you deserve better" "i'm here for you" yadayada). While OM is just a symptom of a bad M, not the cause of the D, if there was no OM I think we could have had a chance to work out our issues. She also claimed to have started talking with OM AFTER BD but I don't believe in it... doesn't matter anymore though. I've been a bit "furious" today reading Mark's thread how he is mentioning about statistics and so on. A relationship is a relationship, no one knows about the future. Rebound and affair relationships can work too and exes might never have any sort of regret. It's too comforting to rely on the statistics and shift your mind to hope for a future instead of using that mind power to concentrate fully on yourself. The same applies for when people talk about "karma" or believing that "everything has a reason" - yeah, marriages end because either one of the spouses had a reason. It doesn't end because there's something better waiting for you...
I actually cleaned up AGAIN today, did the dishes, took the car to inspection, went to get a haircut, took D to school, went to eat alone in a restaurant, spend time outlining my goals, gathered some phone numbers to call for work, continued my program I've been programming, brought my exercise bicycle here and just now starting the HIIT exercise. Funnily enough, I saw an article talking about "soft HIIT practice" and I had to chuckle a bit... So this day has been quite productive for me. Starting to believe more and more in 25s and B's points
Today was the first day I've checked a girl in a "I would totally bang her" -way. I haven't felt that even once since BD. This chick was hot. I was actually quite concerned about why I haven't felt this way about any girl but finally I had that feeling kicking in.
I miss my kids so much. D was here last night and S was here too yesterday. I feel like my XW is somehow "checking me out" each time I go there, as if she would try to pick up some subtle cues? I'm just paranoid, seeing patterns where there are none... Hey is my brain filled with dopamine now?
I also HATE how amicably this is going currently. We are like best buds when it comes to sharing things about kids.
I hate the saying "things happen for a reason" too, sometimes.
But look at the positive changed. You are taking a more active role in your D's life. You are taking her to her hobbies and if you were still with your wife, you might have never been involved. Becoming a more active father could be something very wonderful coming out of this. I see a lot of men on here who admittedly weren't the most involved fathers before BD. Yeah, it's a shame it took such a think to realize they should be a bigger part of their kids lives, but it may have never happened otherwise.
You are doing stuff and getting out of the house which is good.
Focus on your kids. You haveto get up, out of bed, be engaged, do things because you are a dad and you have kids to take care.
Trust me, you would not want a hostile coparenting relationship especially with children that young. An amicable co=parenting relationship is not one you should hate, it's one you should appreciate. Why? because it is best for your kids!
Thanks Ginger. I hate that saying with a passion! My mother believes in that stuff... so you bet I hear it each time I say something about my XW or the D.
I was pretty active with D's hobby outside of the last 5 or so months prior BD. I was working overtime and was tired from it and stress of not getting a job after completing my MSc. I spent much more time in D's hobby than my father ever did in mine. This is taking more responsibility as I'm taking the responsibility of 20 or so girls, which I didn't feel very keen to do before but now I'm pushing myself.
Also, I played with D and read to her much more than XW ever did. But BD has made me much more emotionally open towards my D, like giving her kisses and hugs "automatically". I have changed quite a bit in that regard. I have always been very polite and respectful for others (opening doors for others etc) but now I'm also incorporating some small talk for those moments
But being amicable is stupid in a way. If we can be this amicable and best buds, we could have worked on our issues and be an intact family for the kids to grow in! I don't know if I feel bad about her "disrespecting" me with OM... I don't let that be in between of us during exchanges though.
I was wondering today that how can LBS show that they've changed to be more emotionally open (e.g. more affectionate, more considering, wants to be with the family)? Validation is hard when the WAS is either seeing someone new or does not share any feelings. I can see how say a change in being a coach potato or tendency to fight/yell can be demonstrated rather easily. For example I have never even raised my voice to my XW so we never had any serious conflicts (which was probably bad because fighting per se is not a bad thing if it seeks to find solutions for the conflicts). Any ideas?
Could this be the reason why WAS most often has second thoughts when LBS finds someone else (i.e. demonstrates emotional openness). Also this is probably the hardest one to turn around, although I'm not saying this causes the most harm. But say in infidelity the spouse still has very strong feelings to the cheater vs. in these cases where the love has actually died (and they think it never comes back).
Just generally wanting opinions on this. The biggest contributor to recon is probably the quality of the WASs next R. If it's really bad, it pushes them towards LBS, if it's really good they probably won't look back. Aka grass was not greener. How often it is? I can see how high conflict Rs with abuse/addiction it is often, but what about just R which was mediocre? Sadly for the LBS the WAS might realise this and decide to work on the next relationship instead of looking back. I've heard quite many long term couples who have thought about divorcing more than once but always decided to work on it instead. The feelings will come and go and come back again. My own feeling now is that you should try everything to save it before quitting unless there is abuse etc. Of course there are something you just can't compromise but those are rare.
For example I have never even raised my voice to my XW so we never had any serious conflicts (which was probably bad because fighting per se is not a bad thing if it seeks to find solutions for the conflicts). Any ideas?
Yeah. I think you should do a 180 on that one and start yelling at every opportunity. I promise you that she will notice your changes right away
I agree with your take on the next R. If that is good and fulfilling, they never look back. No matter what they left behind.
In some cases, the grass probably IS greener. But I also believe that if the WAS didn't have the tools to work on the issues in their previous M, they'll most likely run into the same problems again some day. But that could easily be many many years down the line. And we won't be around by then. We will have moved on.
I don't really believe that any WAS comes running back the moment they fear that the LBS have moved on. I think that is just a myth.
I didn't mean it that way. I just see many people saying divorce was the best thing and that the reason is they couldn't be in the same space due to fighting. I don't think fighting/arguing is bad in R if it's constructive and seeks for a solution rather than hurting the other one/being for the need of being right. I think it's actually worse to not argue and bury the issues because it comes as resentment later on. That was probably one of our issues. Nagging and going back to normal after never really works (unless S really understands it).
I agree but it could also be that they understand the issues the second time and actually work on it. Of course the limerence will end but I think it's a bad choice to stay waiting for that because love is again a choice. What I've read, it's quite rare to turn around WAWs and I don't really believe in ASs claim. Maybe if it's a long marriage and people in it are over 50. I think being this young is very different. I don't see my XW wanting me back even though I probably have more "growth potential" than many others (confidence, depression, job, emotional openness and so on). I don't know how her hormones affected this and whether she has a post partum depression or not. I used to speculate on that but now I don't anymore. I don't personally believe they are in a rebound because it has not progressed after 4 or so months so they are actually taking it slow. The best thing I can do is to not think about it at all and just concentrate on myself. I think too many LBS refuses to really believe it's over and uses all the crutches to find a reason, not accepting the fact that love is a decision and some day the WAS just decided to stop loving the LBS.
Yeah, I don't think it's a myth completely but it probably sometimes stems more from loss of control rather than genuine will to recon, and only if the WAS has not found greener grass themself.
Also I personally find the statement that "life will teach the lessons" a bit odd if it's used to make the LBS to feel good. It is only there to prevent the LBS to falling into doing stupid things. It feels sometimes that we believe too much that the WAS won't be happy, karma will do something or that they will learn and realize their mistakes later on. Way more often than not they don't. However I do agree it's not the LBSs job to show it or teach the WAS.
I don't think you should think about showing her you have changed. You should focus on changing and making those changes long term. If she looks, she'll see, but only if the changes are genuine.
I agree. I just don't know how the LBS can show that when validation, hugs etc. Are out of the picture. Maybe through other changes the WAS can believe emotional connection can change too.
My question was more of what you think rather than what I do. I think that if there is an OM/OW, asking for how WAS is feeling or trying to mindread their emotions based on how they act/look and then asking and validating is only showing that you are ok with the situation and being friends.
I don't think validation is ever out of the picture.
Nor is noticing someone looks stressed and asking them about it.
For me, that's different than asking them how they feel all the time or thinking it is your job to fix their problems.
And forming emotional connections with your children and with friends is always good.
I guess it's a cultural thing. I haven't really talked about anything else than kids to my XW. Only last weekend I asked how she's doing, otherwise I haven't asked even once how she is doing because I see that as pursuing. If she talks about something I just look at her and nod, or overall listen to her. I think asking something like "you look stressed. Is that how you feel?" certainly looks odd in her eyes. We don't say that to neighbors either
One of these days you have to tell us where you are from LC. I think it's the second time you brought up that the culture in the country you are living in, is different from elsewhere.
Nodding and one word answers also seem to be my preferred communication form with XW. Not that we ever speak of other stuff than the kids. And not that often actually. I havent even seen her for something like 2 months. And I am ok with that. I have no clue what is going on in her life (the kids hardly ever mention her when they are with me). She could be living her dream or they could be running on fumes. Who knows. I will admit however, based on the few things they do tell, that lately I have started wondering more of her as MLC than a WAS/WW.
But we seem to think a lot alike LC. I also do not see any value in showing her my friendly side (I'm NOT nasty btw...)
I've said it, I'm from Finland.
I mostly leave speaking to her and only continue to speak if it's something where I can naturally follow. E.g. she mentioned S learned how to clap his hands and I said "true, it's so funny. He also clapped to D on his own when D was doing tricks and we both found it funny." She laughed at that and asked "really?". That's the tone we have in conversations mostly.
I have no idea either about their life except for XW said the last time that she's happy now that someone wanted her. Haven't checked but they are probably WhatsApping all the time now too. I'm a bit worried about XW since she seems to always be online till like 0:30-1:00 am based on if I need to answer to something at morning. That's just crazy with S, uni etc. Well, not my problem unless it affects my kids.
Oh, really? What have they said it seems more like MLC?
Well, I'm FRIENDLY but I'm not that concerned about how her day has been etc. If she asks that from me, then I obviously reflect the same back. More of mirroring her behavior than anything.
I've said it, I'm from Finland.
sorry, missed that post. I have tried to stay away from the forum a couple of times as I'm not sure it aids my detachment, so I must have missed a couple of your posts. Can't seem stay away from here though
Oh, really? What have they said it seems more like MLC?
It's a bit more than just what the kids have said, though. First of all, a couple of weeks ago they told me that XW bought a new par of running shoes. I litterally burst out in laughing. This is a woman who has not ran a single mile her entire life. But she has now picked up running. Today D9 told me her teacher told her that she saw XW at the golf course yesterday. Both is so out of character for her. She is the most anti-sport woman I have ever met.
Secondly, she has not had any of the kids visit her once (outside our schedule) yet since she moved out (9 months ago) That is just plain weird. I have had all 3 kids on a sleepover, D9 has visited me a couple of times and so has D4. Maybe I'm a bit harsh here, but to me that doesn't sound like a fully functional mother, does it?
She did however have D10 over for a couple of hours 2 weeks ago. And if you ever visit the mlc forum, you'll learn a bit about how the mlc comes out of it (and maybe back to the M). They seem to reconnect in some weird order. First they reconnect to the home (and she has started to drive by once every other week to drop off D9's riding gear even if she could just drop it off at school and have me bring it home on exchange days) and next they reconnect with the kids. (yeah I know, I'm smoking hopium here since she does have them every other week anyway, but...). Weirdly enough, as I write this, she just texted me to ask if it was ok that she drove by D10's rock climbing activity as she could leave work for 30 minutes..this is also a first...(I'm with D4 for gymnastics while D10 climbs)
I have noticed some of the newcomers who have talked with the DB coaches mention that their wives appeared to have "some sort" of MLC, also without the extremes. And lets not forget, she turned 40 last summer.. Major mind reading, I know, I know....
Sorry LC, waaaaaay to long post.... LOL
Haha Btrow. No problem. I like to read posts in my thread
I can definitely see that she could be an MLCer too... however that doesn't really change anything for you.
Today was a weird day. My D did something really stupid and XW was really down about it. We were both telling her not to do that and she has to go ask for an apology now from a friend/friend's mom. XW started crying and I automatically made the posture that I could give a hug, and I really mean that I didn't even consider her my XW anymore but just as a person needing a hug... This could definitely be seen as pursuit, lol. I just understood what I did after she shaked her head.
I tried to validate as well as I could. Offered to stay to feed S and talk to D. She said she appreciated it. She communicated much more otherwise too via text today. About random things not directly related to kids.
It's now two months till the divorce is through. I don't see it changing... Well, I saved one marriage with the knowledge I've gathered.
I mean to apologize. Lol.
maybe I missed it in the thread...
but was the doctor appointment she reached out to you about, the reason she was hospitalized?
How is she doing now?
[quote=lcause]I had plans for tonight and XW just suddenly asked if I could watch the kids in half an hour as she has a doctor's appointment.
I get that it was last minute, but she's the mother of your children and evidently she was pretty sick.
I told her no because I have plans and asked that did she really got the info about it an hour prior to the appointment? Apparently yes.
indeed
Don't know if I was being a scumbag as I could have probably made time for it but that would have prevented me from going to GAL today.
Okay I have a question not intended to make you defensive.
But what could have been more important for her, than the need for a sudden doctor appointment?
Is it just that you did not believe her? I mean, if so, I can understand saying no b/c you just didn't buy her reason.
But if it's b/c you really wanted to do something else and yet you believed her, then I'd remind you it's not all about your being her h, but also that she is the mother of your children. And setting an example to your kids.
This^^ is not doormat behavior, just loyal - We give up things we want to do when someone is very sick, or afraid, or needs to be cared for...even when it's super super inconvenient for us.
We show up.
So maybe it's
something to look at. ??
Yes it was. I didn't know it was THAT important at the time she first asked me. When she asked later if I could be with kids that she's probably being hospitalized, I was 200 km away. All good though, kids were at relatives.
She is fine, it was just for monitoring. So no worries.
[quote=lcause]Also I personally find the statement that "life will teach the lessons" a bit odd if it's used to make the LBS to feel good. It is only there to prevent the LBS to falling into doing stupid things.
yes and or petty angry things. Losing the wish to inflict punishment on the WAS to "teach a lesson" also releases the LBS from their need to be right and to stop inserting themselves into their WAS's head -
and to keep the focus on their own growth.
It feels sometimes that we believe too much that the WAS won't be happy, karma will do something or that they will learn and realize their mistakes later on.
our ego wants this^^ (pretty much every LBS wants to believe their departing spouse will regret the choice, no matter what else happens.)
Yes, there are statistics saying most 2nd m's end in divorce. Fact.
But if there is an affair - even if the affair "Fails", it does not mean the first marriage will end up reconciled. True.
Lots of reasons for this^^ but in reality, what matters are our own choices.
ever think your analysis is a way to avoid just staying on your path?
Hey, I've been there, done that.
Self awareness is vital to our happiness, no matter what our spouses do.
Way more often than not they don't.
so are you saying that you know what most WAS's feel? Because saying "way more often most" don't regret leaving their first m's is simply not accurate. Where did you find that?
In a large survey, way more than half of those who filed for divorce, had regrets.
5 years after the divorce, nearly 3/4 saying they wish they had worked harder to solve the marital problems, which I count as a regret.
(BTW, I saw a worthless study saying it was closer to 1/3 who regretted it, but that article also said "24% regret the damage the divorce did to their kids"...
really? Not ALL of them regret "The damage the divorce did to their kids"??)
anyway...
Yes it was. I didn't know it was THAT important at the time she first asked me.
sounds as if she was very afraid and did not know the outcome. So she did not know it was THAT important.
When she asked later if I could be with kids that she's probably being hospitalized, I was 200 km away.
Did you drive or fly back to get the kids, in case?
All good though, kids were at relatives.
She is fine, it was just for monitoring. So no worries.
thank God she is fine and her condition has to be monitored and not require surgery.
Look, I'll be honest, LC. Your response is triggering a strong negative reaction in me.
If my W was sick and couldn't take care of the kids I would take them in a NY minute. If she wanted me to watch them so she could go party, different story.
At the end of the day she is the mother of my children, and even though I would never tell her this she would always be able to count on me.
Those statements were just to bring my thoughts and get people like you share their views
our ego wants this^^ (pretty much every LBS wants to believe their departing spouse will regret the choice, no matter what else happens.)
I think our ego gets hit much harder when we realize this is not the case. It could be that we don't care anymore then, though.
so are you saying that you know what most WAS's feel? Because saying "way more often most" don't regret leaving their first m's is simply not accurate. Where did you find that?
In a large survey, way more than half of those who filed for divorce, had regrets.
5 years after the divorce, nearly 3/4 saying they wish they had worked harder to solve the marital problems, which I count as a regret.
Funnily enough, I remember finding a study with the same ball-park numbers - it was of ALL people. Those who filed and those who got BDd. I can see a huge number of BDd people regretting divorce.
Also, based on those studies I've read, men are almost double as likely to regret than women (20-30% vs 50-60%). Women also file something like 70%-80%? of the divorces.
(BTW, I saw a worthless study saying it was closer to 1/3 who regretted it, but that article also said "24% regret the damage the divorce did to their kids"...
really? Not ALL of them regret "The damage the divorce did to their kids"??)
Reading comments in the Internet, some people truly DO believe a divorce does not harm kids at all... that kids are better off with parents divorced. I can see maybe one or two scenarios where this is true, but vast vast vast vast vast majority of marriages, the kids are those who suffer the most!
You asked me not to get defensive, yet you say my response is triggering a strong negative reaction in you? Well then... I'm not going to answer further questions or matters related to that.
I realized I worded that bit about kids suffering a bit wrong. I meant vast majority of marriages are good enough so that the kids suffer in divorce.
Btw I personally find it much more likely that those people who regret the divorce is because of the next partner is not any better, I don't think it's because the LBS is attractive. They realize they could have put the work to keep their M and be a united family instead of more of the same in the new person. For my particular sitch, I don't think anyone can be worse than I was. Not something to dwell on, but I do learn from my mistakes
However IF this person is a better match, I don't think any amount of self growth is going to get the WAS to look back. No matter if you would be the absolute knight in shining armor or the princess and even if you would have fixed every issue they had in you. Even if you were, hypothetically, perfect.
J9 I'm not going to always be there for her. I can't expect my next partner to accept that. Of course I can take the kids when needed, but "always to count on me" is just too much. Maybe you meant it as taking care of the kids which I agree with. Of course I also wish all the best for her.
I think the hospital incident would have been a good opportunity for you to 180.
Your future partner would benefit from an Lcause who can be supportive of those in need and who places his kids' needs in a somewhat scary situation over his own plans.
Some posters need help pushing back against spouses who are constantly taking from the LBS. Others need help learning to step up.
It can cause problems when people take the wrong advice.
If I was dating a guy and his ex wife called and said she needed him to watch the kids because she was sick and needed to see the doctor, he sure as heck better cancel OUR plans and do that. As long as she wasn't a woman who took advantage, I would have lose respect for a guy I was dating who wouldn't help out the mother of his kids by caring for his own kids because he had to GAL.
On the other hand, if she called all the time still expecting him to step into husbandly duties like fixing things around the house and he canceled our plans for THAT, well, I'd have to set up a boundary. But I fully expect any dad I ever date to be willing to take his kids for emergent matters.
Some posters need help pushing back against spouses who are constantly taking from the LBS. Others need help learning to step up.
It can cause problems when people take the wrong advice.
Excellent.
Completely agree.
Think there is a fear that when the WAS requests something, the LBS sees themselves as being "used", so they push back to show them 'you walked out - don't expect me to be there anymore' - rather than see the situation for what it is. But as mentioned previously the rules aren't RULES, but pointers to a more open/self confident/controlled lifestyle and they would never encroach on the basic fundamentals of being a Father. (not aimed at you LC)
First, how is that a 180? Do you really think I didn't watch the kids if she had to go in our M? What husband does that? I've taken the kids out several times she's been ill or tired. Second, if I misinterpreted her vague message once, I'm not "supportive of those in need"? That was a bit rude message. Absurdity goes out of roof when I'm supposed to travel for 4-5 hours destroying weeks of planning and someone else's day just to wait if something happens to my XW...
I'm a bit annoyed of these responses. She didn't say she was hospitalised, she said it's a possibility that she needs to go to see doc again. I interpreted it myself that she went to hospital as D was again put to her grandparents. It could have very well been a nice little romantic weekend with OM again for what I know. I didn't ask, just thought so but I'm now leaning to the other.