http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2753784&page=1^^Previous Thread.
So pulling out of the driveway today, I had an idea: I should just concentrate on what I have, and just ignore what I've lost. When I look at what I have: friends, family, two good boys, some cool things and hopefully a cool house, living in the USA, I should be happy. My Wnis the only negative, so if I just take that out of the equation, I'm doing great! This fits with how I've felt all along.
It is like I just time warped from 26 to 42 and picked up two kids along the way. It feels good. I'm in better shape too!
So pulling out of the driveway today, I had an idea: I should just concentrate on what I have, and just ignore what I've lost. When I look at what I have: friends, family, two good boys, some cool things and hopefully a cool house, living in the USA, I should be happy. My Wnis the only negative, so if I just take that out of the equation, I'm doing great! This fits with how I've felt all along.
It is like I just time warped from 26 to 42 and picked up two kids along the way. It feels good. I'm in better shape too!
Kylo,
This information from you is good to hear. Great job.
I accidentally hit submit before I remarked on your post. I absolutely love this post. We still have so much to be thankful for in life.
Kylo -
I just read through almost all of your story and Im certainly sorry for the position that you find yourself in. It's definitely not an easy or fun time, for sure.
That said, theres a few thoughts I had while reading through everything.
I think you are giving entirely too much of your mental energy and brain space to W right now. You seem to be analyzing every word, action, body language, interaction, etc to search for a possible 'clue' as to where she stands. Pretty much every post is focused on what shes doing or thinking or how you feel about her. I think you would be much better served focusing on yourself and your own self-confidence. I really enjoyed your wedding story until I reas that you left in the middle even though you and everyone you were interacting with was having a great time. I dont know you, but instead of looking for ways to knock W down in your mind, you should really be looking for ways to bring yourself up.
Someone posted to you a while back that you should be happy regardless of your W's mood. I dont agree. That isnt detachment. To me, detachment is taking control of your own emotional well being regardless of W's mood. Its OK to be sad. Its OK to be angry. FEEL whatever it is that youre feeling. As far as DB goes, right now, you shouldnt show those emotions to W as it relates to her; dont show her the emotional impact of her actions. I think you should really focus on your own emotional health.
As for when you are interacting with W, I think you need to work on your self-control. There are a lot of posts I read where you felt W misinterpreted you and so you defended yourself; when someone here called you out, your immediate reply was to again defend yourself and say it was a bad joke or something. I think AS said something similar, but Id knock it off with the jokes and sarcastic comments. Treat your interactions with W like a colleague you are being friendly with. You can make jokes, but you wouldnt want to say anything even approaching a line where they might be offended. Basically, stick to the facts, but in an upbeat kind of manner.
Lastly, you refer to DBing a lot, but Im not sure Ive seen any actual divorce busting as I understand the process from the books. Your story feels....rudderless as I read it. I cant tell exactly what your goals are, so it's difficult to really give good, concrete advice. The first step in DR is to start with a beginner's mind. The next step is to start setting goals. Do you have some? As I read, I found a lot of things you set out for W to do, but I dont see a list of what you want to accomplish. Not only as it relates to your R, but to overall become the person only a fool would leave. What does that man look like? What are you going to do to become HIM?Saving your marriage may or may not happen, but I can guarantee that you will succeed if you actually go through all of the steps.
I know this is a long post, and I can feel that it was probably more critical than I intended. I just want to give you some food for thought about how to make this process work for you. You say you may not have it in you to see iot through - start with a Beginners Mind and actually step through the process. It isnt quick, but it can definitely be rewarding.
Good luck!
[quote=Kaizen]Kylo -
I just read through almost all of your story and Im certainly sorry for the position that you find yourself in. It's definitely not an easy or fun time, for sure.
That said, theres a few thoughts I had while reading through everything.
I think you are giving entirely too much of your mental energy and brain space to W right now. You seem to be analyzing every word, action, body language, interaction, etc to search for a possible 'clue' as to where she stands. Pretty much every post is focused on what shes doing or thinking or how you feel about her. I think you would be much better served focusing on yourself and your own self-confidence. I really enjoyed your wedding story until I reas that you left in the middle even though you and everyone you were interacting with was having a great time. I dont know you, but instead of looking for ways to knock W down in your mind, you should really be looking for ways to bring yourself up.
[color:#000099][/color]I am analyzing what she does, but it is more through the lens of her having BPD traits, and more about her actions of the past. I only became aware of her BPD traits after BD and I find it fascinating. I'm not really looking at her for signs about the MLC because I know this takes a very long time, and frankly there haven't been any positive signs.
The wedding story did have a sad ending. I just can't have a couple drinks without it making me sluggish and down. I rarely drink. I need get full-blown drunk or I am going to end up sluggish and no fun in two hours. I was there from 5:00 to 10:30 and had a 45 min. drive home.
I'll get to the rest later. I also want to see if I have this colored response figured out
Well I don't have the colored response figured out.....
My response to the quote begins at: color:#000099][/color]
Kaizen with the samurai sword (as opposed to the 2x4)! I'm giving up on trying to quote and respond properly, since I mess it up.
Re: working on my self-control. Yes you are absolutely right. The incidents are making the posts because I know I'm struggling with not defending myself, and not getting riled up by her cuts. I used to be able to judge her mood by my jokes. If she smiled, she was in a good mood. If she got upset, I knew she wasn't happy with me. I just need to not joke about anything to do with her, you are right.
Re: DB'ing. I feel like I'm dealing with MLC and in the LRT. In the LRT part of the book, the instructions are very simple, and I have been following them. Most of it is about what not to do. what you are to do is GAL. BUT I do think that maybe I need to try to DO something else. She would complain about me not doing things around the house, so I will do more of those things. I have been cleaning more often. And now when I do things with the kids, I just do them and don't bother with filling her in. My sights are on painting some walls, since that is just about the only handy thing I know how to do.
I did not have any goals. I have a hard time coming up with any, but I will make a goal of having her stat a conversation with me that isn't for the purpose of information. I know this is a blah goal, but she has been perfectly capable of living in the same house and not saying a word to me.
Re: becoming the man only a fool would leave. I was already working on self improvement. I've been steadily getting into better shape. I've been listening to podcasts on my interests; uplifting and enlightening stuff. I'm pretty sure my wife has BPD traits, so oddly enough, the better man I became, the more she needed to bring me down. She did it by not giving me what I wanted, no compliments, and in one instance trying to ruin an evening where I was a "top dog". She couldn't stand it.
So honestly, I feel like I already am that man. I was doing my improvements before BD. This winter (before BD) I became a firm believer in just working on myself to improve things.
As for GAL, I've been going out more. It would be a lot more fun if I could get the friends I really enjoy to go out with, but I'm working with what I have. I've been going to classes about raising gifted kids, got the kids to Sunday School every week at a very inconvenient time. Signed up to teach. But the thing that has really helped the most is just making progress on the fitness front. I have been able to get rid of a few more pounds, raised my plank time from 2:55 to 4:15, leg raises from 24-32, pull ups from 27-31, and push ups consistently over 70 instead of 67, etc. etc. Now I'm hyped for football.
I could improve upon my drive at work, (maybe not a good idea before a D), and just being more empathetic.
So it is the third day since my little mini-epiphany about being thankful for what I have and basically ignoring the whole W thing, and it has worked so far. I know this is a roller coaster, "Caution: Feeling Subject to Change", but right now I'm looking forward to this whole thing being over. I don't feel a tinge of snark when seeing other people's lovey dovey Facebook posts anymore.
W went out at 6:00 or so last night, last minute, and didn't come home until after 3:00; but I don't seem to care too much about that, so I am happy with that emotional response. I'm going out with a friend tonight, and the W has plans for tomorrow again. We leave for a week long vacation to Florida next Friday that was planned before BD, with three other families. I'm really looking forward to it and so are my boys.
Kaizen with the samurai sword (as opposed to the 2x4)!
Ha. I thought that it felt combative, and that isnt really my intent. I think a lot of what you are doing is pretty good. So, I wanted to focus on the areas where I thought you could use another perspective.
I know I'm struggling with not defending myself, and not getting riled up by her cuts.
One phrase that really helped me understand validation is this:
"Her perception is her reality".
So if she is offended by something you say, then you cant see that she took it wrong. You cant say that she didnt understand right. etc. If she said she were hungry, you wouldnt say "you cant be hungry because you just ate!" You cant dictate what she is feeling. Even if you dont agree with it, if its what she perceives to be true, then to her, it is true.
I feel like I'm dealing with MLC and in the LRT. In the LRT part of the book, the instructions are very simple, and I have been following them.
Why do you think you are in LRT? I think you should follow Sandi's rules, but I dont think you are anywhere near LRT at this point. To me, that sounds like flipping through the book to find the shortcut one-size-fits-all answer. Shes still living at home? Theres still a good amount of interaction between the two you. That doesnt seem like fall-off-the-planet LRT to me.
Most of it is about what not to do. what you are to do is GAL. BUT I do think that maybe I need to try to DO something else. She would complain about me not doing things around the house, so I will do more of those things. I have been cleaning more often. And now when I do things with the kids, I just do them and don't bother with filling her in. My sights are on painting some walls, since that is just about the only handy thing I know how to do.
Here's the most useful exercise I did. Id instruct you to make 3 lists of 10. In the first list I want you to put in 10 things that you like about yourself. These could be things W pointed out, things you like, things other people like, whatever. In the second list, put in 10 things that you dont like. Or that you want to improve. These could be things your wife doesnt like (for example, not being an equal partner in household chores) or things that you dont really like. In the third, put 10 things that you admire in other men. What qualities do you notice that you are drawn to?
Then you can set goals in how to incorporate those 20 things in lists 2 and 3 into list 1. How will Kylo2.0 be different than Kylo? You mention some ways you are working on self-improvement and thats good. I think this will help you find some other areas you hadnt considered. I think this is a good bit about what goals you can set for yourself.
I have a hard time coming up with any, but I will make a goal of having her stat a conversation with me that isn't for the purpose of information. I know this is a blah goal, but she has been perfectly capable of living in the same house and not saying a word to me.
Heres where I have some disagreement with what MWD talks about. This isnt really a goal. You have absolutely zero control about whether this happens. And if it doesnt, does that mean you failed? To me, this is a mile marker to help guide your journey, not a destination.
How about how you will treat her? How you will react to her? How you will parent? How you will improve? etc. THEN you can observe her for those behaviors like starting conversations, etc.
Well I don't have the colored response figured out.....
My response to the quote begins at: color:#000099][/color]
You can test tags before posting, hit "preview post" before hitting "submit" and it'll show you a preview of what your post will look like. I do this almost every time because I am constantly screwing up the quote tags.
Thanks, AS, and duh!
Kaizen, yeah I like those goals. Much easier to track. My goal is to make it a week and not snark or kid the W. It's so hard since it is kind of my thing, plus the resentment just comes out. But that is also what makes it a good goal.
Validating BS overreactions goes completely against what I believe, but I'm trying to do it anyway. Although, I have to say in the extreme it makes you ask: "getting along at what cost?" My answer is clear: my boys and commitment, but I doubt I will be able to do this long-term. I don't want to do it long-term, or maybe I should say that often.
As for LRT: I do think I'm there. If I had the funds, she would be out of the house, we'd have lawyers and be in D proceedings. She's absolutely convinced this is over. We don't discuss R. If I don't talk to her, she doesn't say a word to me. It is actually pretty impressive. She has never shown any doubt. I say all this and then she actually calls me today, but it was extenuating circumstances. I'll post about that later.
Kylo 2.0 looks like a good exercise. I'll do it.
A small step that most likely means nothing, but she called me today to talk about her sitch. I think the real purpose was to faux complain about being in charge and having to make a tough decision and face the fallout from the people she would upset by the decision, (although once the facts were laid out, it was a no-brainer). I validated. I think she was also looking for my input/approval. Anyway, it is one more convo started by her than we've had in the last few weeks.
Finishing my workout then heading out.
A Kylo recommended LBS/WAS song: Hello Again by Amos Lee. The lyrics could fit either person. WAS is thinking, oh yeah this is my song, but so is the LBS. A good tune either way.
What do you mean by "validating Bs overeactions"? Do you have an example. I've seen a lot of people equate validating with agreeing. I'm not saying that you need to agree with anything she says. Validation is about understanding that she has feelings and that they are hers. If she gets offended by your joke, then that's how she feels; you shouldn't defend why you were right and she was wrong because how can her feeling be wrong?
As for LRT, I still don't think so. To me LRT is complete no contact. There's just no way to be in complete no contact when you're living in the same house with two children. I think there are some principles to gain that are outlined in asandis rules and I wouldn't go out of your way to contact her. But this isn't a complete radio silence fall off the earth situation.
Keep posting and good luck on your goal. Are there other things you want to accomplish in the next week??
Kaizen, At this stage in DB we validate and don't argue and don't make our case. I guess I was projecting this long-term. You're right about the validation part. I guess I needed to make it clear that I'm not OK with validation and then just leaving it alone for the long-term.
If W was a "normal" reasonable person, it wouldn't be as big as a deal. However, with the BPDish, emotions=facts. So whenever me showing her how easy it is to disconnect the propane tank makes her feel like I'm asking her to do everything, it becomes I am asking her to do everything. Pair this with an inability to admit she is wrong and you can see how this R would lose all touch with reality. A mentally ill person would be creating the reality of our M.
But, yes, I can and should continue to validate if we reconcile. I just can't validate and then let the erroneous conclusion go over and over again. I can also work on my communication skills so that I'm not misinterpreted.
I just disagree that feelings can't be wrong, at least in the context of: I want to have a healthy relationship with a person. If that is the framework, then there will be reactions to events that are wrong.
An example: I was an ogre who "used" her and only wanted her for sex since I wanted to have sex more than once a month. I told her I read articles on the subject that said: do it even if you don't want to. And like MWD said, she ended up liking it every time, expect once that I can remember. But she felt I was an ogre. Sorry, I'm not an ogre. Her feelings are wrong, and there is nothing in my past that would support that conclusion.
This next week: I want to finish strong on my fitness since we are going to the beach on Friday for a week and I need to get ready for the trip, so not as productive of a DB week. I'll work on no snark, more support, always validate
Sorry - I'm on my phone so these thoughts will be brief.
1) validation is an every day life skill. It isn't an approach to W for the short term.
2) let's say that objectively her feeling is wrong an you are not an ogre. So what? So you think YOU are going to convince her otherwise? And even if you do, the act of convincing her probably results in negative feelings anyway. You don't have to agree, but I find that trying to convince someone that they're feelings are wrong with your words is a fools errand.
3) I've also never found that using articles to persuade someone to have more sex is a good way to have more sex. Not saying that once a month is a healthy lifestyle. I just don't think the "this says you should do it even if you don't want to" approach is good either. Not sure the best method though. Someone smarter than me on here can probably help better.
So today my football team got good news: the opponent's starting QB would be out. This = guaranteed win in most cases. I was genuinely happy and excited. I ended up talking to my W a few times because I was just in "I love everybody" mode. It breaks her out of Ice Queen mode. I feel like this seems more natural, and more likely to have positive results than the "I don't talk to you unless I absolutely have to". I feel like that only makes me seem hurt and resentful. People say treat her like a neighbor, and this seems to fit more with the analogy. I may try it. It is just easier anyway, plus on vacay I'll be in "I love everybody" mode for a week.
Another positive sign, (I think) was that in my exuberant state I wasn't pining for her. I was looking forward to my life without her. The freedom, the reduced stress. I am already living much of it now. Really ever since my little epiphany I've been feeling great.
Saw the IC yesterday and I think she just thinks I should go ahead and get out. I know she only hears one side. I'm also thinking I might be talking too much. I don't seem to be receiving much insight.
With vacation coming up, I'm excited and so are the kids. It is hard to tell with the W. I think her MLC has a touch of depression in it.
I talked to the wife about vacation things, and had my shirt off since I was grilling. I caught her looking at me. Now, I know that anyone with their clothes off is going to get looked at, but she has been such an Ice Queen that I was surprised to see a little humanity out of her, and maybe she liked what she saw.
Later I am playing some country music, which is something I never do. I used to turn up my nose at most of it. The groom at the wedding I went to mentioned what a fan of Eric Church he was, so I gave him a listen and liked it.
So the wife is surprised and says "You're listening to country music now?" and I said "I was exposed to new things at the wedding." "She responds with: "You met some country girl at the wedding?" I gave her a look, hard to describe: shock, surprise, don't ask that? It seems the few times she does talk to me comments about me having or getting a girlfriend make an inordinately high appearance.
Then she responds with a story about these ladies making booby puppets (making your breast into a face). I listen, but I think it is pretty hoosier, so I just kind of stare at her. At the end her troubled friend wants to make one and wants W to make one too. W says she would have no one to show it to. So, a possible clue, or a smokescreen.
So it could be the genuine happiness of the vacation, my attempt at détente, but now I need to be ready for conversation it looks like.
Finally, as if to remind me what I am "missing": I used to ask the W to trim the hair on my neck with clippers. It was like pulling teeth. She would make every excuse not to. She would do everything else instead, then when it finally happened she would complain. This was a 2 minute operation BTW. So a few days ago she said she would help me with it this weekend, instead of me paying someone. Didn't happen, no big deal. I ask about it tonight, she says OK. Of course she stays with both kids at bedtime until late, doesn't mention it and crawls into bed. Just funny at this point, I'm not going to say anything. I know, this is bad DB, I just can't stand wasting $$.
Then she responds with a story about these ladies making booby puppets (making your breast into a face). I listen, but I think it is pretty hoosier, so I just kind of stare at her. At the end her troubled friend wants to make one and wants W to make one too. W says she would have no one to show it to. So, a possible clue, or a smokescreen.
Booby puppets? If she could work on her ventriloquism, she could have her own Las Vegas show.
Last evening before we leave for vacation.
My happiness (I'm kind of too happy about vacay to be mean to)and being a little bit conversational (as opposed to saying nothing) has had the effect of her talking more also. She did talk to me about a few things that weren't "business" related, and really personal. So this actually meets a goal, and I think I came close to the goal not to kid her. I failed the goal, but I don't think I made her angry with the kidding....
The other edge to the conversational sword is it gives more opportunity for her just under the surface anger towards me to come out, and it has a few times. No big blow ups, but I did respond to her statement made out of frustration about me sleeping in the basement with "That's not happening." These little disagreements are very much in the pattern of the old R, but now I'm putting up with very little BS. I do need to stay zen, and I need to seem more interested when her stories get dumb
The only negative? of being so excited, is sometimes I want to give her a hug. I feel like it is out of habit possibly?
She was supposed to work on her resume Monday, but that didn't happen. Seemingly the fault of the other party, but with W there is always an excuse.
On tugging on my heartstrings front. The boys have been so cute lately in "family" ways. Ways that won't be the same when we split. Family is a big deal to them. They have friends, but no best buds.
Both my boys jumped on my lap, "Daddy!" I told them that they were the two things that made me happy, then my eldest brings up "What about mommy?"
At least they don't know what is happening yet!
Finally, as if to remind me what I am "missing": I used to ask the W to trim the hair on my neck with clippers. It was like pulling teeth. She would make every excuse not to. She would do everything else instead, then when it finally happened she would complain. This was a 2 minute operation BTW. So a few days ago she said she would help me with it this weekend, instead of me paying someone. Didn't happen, no big deal. I ask about it tonight, she says OK. Of course she stays with both kids at bedtime until late, doesn't mention it and crawls into bed. Just funny at this point, I'm not going to say anything. I know, this is bad DB, I just can't stand wasting $$.
Oh boy. OK, so here's something your W clearly does not like to do, and do you blame her? Do you ask her to trim your fingernails and nose hair too? But you basically made her do it. And now you're having marital problems, but.... you're STILL trying to make her do it? WHY???? Go buy yourself a hand mirror. Put shaving cream on your neck up to your hair line. Turn your back to the sink. Hold up the hand mirror and look at your reflection in the main mirror and shave your own freakin' neck. It takes a little practice to get the hang of it because your hand is moving the opposite of the reflection you're looking at, but it can be done. Quit depending on your W for stuff like this!
Please listen to AS.
It's not something she finds attractive, obviously. And it's not enhancing any feeling of attraction.
Spend the money & look your best. This is a no brainer.
Otherwise what you are really doing is imposing your needs onto her, even when she has made her distaste quite evident.
Sorry to say, (really). But you are not the victim here.
The good news is that you are empowered to change this.
Last evening before we leave for vacation.
My happiness (I'm kind of too happy about vacay to be mean to)and being a little bit conversational (as opposed to saying nothing) has had the effect of her talking more also. She did talk to me about a few things that weren't "business" related, and really personal. So this actually meets a goal, and
I think I came close to the goal not to kid her. I failed the goal, but I don't think I made her angry with the kidding....
"kidding" that even risks making the other person angry (which usually covers the hurt) is not humor.
It's insulting or degrading in some way, to them. And it is done without you owning it, under the guise of "kidding."
Even if it were witty, it's at her expense. Stop it. The other edge to the conversational sword
is it gives more opportunity for her just under the surface anger towards me to come out, and it has a few times.
what is the upside to arousing her anger?
No big blow ups, but I did respond to her statement made out of frustration about me sleeping in the basement with "That's not happening." These little disagreements are very much in the pattern of the old R, but now I'm putting up with very little BS. I do need to stay zen,
and I need to seem more interested when her stories get dumb
Do you like your w?-
She was supposed to work on her resume Monday, but that didn't happen.
Seemingly the fault of the other party, but with W there is always an excuse.
Again, do you like your w? You sound quite critical of her, which is why I ask.
On tugging on my heartstrings front. The boys have been so cute lately in "family" ways. Ways that won't be the same when we split. Family is a big deal to them. They have friends, but no best buds.
Both my boys jumped on my lap, "Daddy!"
I told them that they were the two things that made me happy, then my eldest brings up "What about mommy?" At least they don't know what is happening yet!
what was the goal of saying that? Why not just say you love being with them?
I read back your whole thread to get to this point just in case I misconstrued your words. I don't think I have.
Through out your thread here there are numerous pejoratives attached to your wife, a lot of "she's so crazy" implications.
The only thing you seem to want to work on, in you, is your tactical approach. Oh, and for you to stop needling her, which for some reason you believe is hilarious even when it's obvious it hurts her and the marriage. That is on you. (Which is good news in a way, b/c you can actually do something about it. No more helplessness).
The dynamic you have, (and maybe it's both of you), is to use passive aggressive snarky insults under the guise of "just joking!" That seems to substitute for true conversations, unless you have those too, and just don't tell us.
From what I can tell, you don't seem to think it's mean spirited or unhealthy.
You do some manipulative things as well, but I don't want to go point by point.(The comment to your boys about how they (and they alone) are THE 2 (and only 2) things that make you happy is so transparent, I'm surprised you don't see it. I get the feeling you are blaming your w again, for damage to come. And you don't think you are playing a role in this at all. But you are.
Just wondering if maybe some of the labels you attach to her, really help you at all.
Seems to me she's had enough of the nasty critical commentary and you don't know another way to communicate. That is a fundamental problem, and an unloving dynamic. And it can be changed.
But you are the broken piece that is not getting needed repairs. That is partly b/c you are too busy pointing out how your "MLC/BPD Wife" is the broken rusty fundamentally flawed, poorly designed wrench in the engine.
I think you really do want the marital dynamic to change. I suggest you Stop working on changing her. Change you.
And see this^^^ as the gift of empowerment, that it is. This is not hopeless, far from it. But work on what you can control - you - and look in the mirror for some of the issues in the m.
What kind of relationships did you have with your siblings growing up? And your parents? How was forgiveness modeled?
Were there many compliments given? And how were those compliments, if any, received? A gracious "thank you" or a dismissive redirection or what?
Dig deep.
If you really want your m to work, there are some fundamental changes you can make that will improve all of Your r's in life.
Do you live on the west coast or east? There are workshops that can help you with this. I think their continuity (a few days in a row, as opposed to weekly therapy) can help you see the path of your comments BEFORE you make them. Learn new positive loving ways to communicate and establish healthy boundaries without tearing anyone else down.
If you are witty, there are ways to enjoy a good sense of humor and laughter is incredibly bonding.
Learn to replace the pattern of "zingers!" into a healthier kinder more loving relationship.
I happen to believe your w wants that^^^. I don't think she's crazy or selfish. Or at least not in an extreme way. At least not from what I'm reading in these posts.
I think she craves intimacy without all the jabs. Those comments eat away at our self esteem until we become people we never wanted to become. Angry, defensive, over reactive. Clearly those are protective tools.
People can change. You can learn to reframe your commentary and negative views of her - which set you up for jabbing her and sets her up overreact, (& then you point out her reaction to your innocent "kidding" to justify your negative perceptions of her.)
AND Then, Rinse, repeat.
What are you doing to change how You interact with her? And to see your motivations?
Also I hope you won't make anymore remarks to your kids which are thinly veiled jabs at your wife. It really is not good for them. And they are learning how to treat their future wives, from you. Think about that.
Hang in there, you can change the course of this ship if you truly truly want to.
Last evening before we leave for vacation.
My happiness (I'm kind of too happy about vacay to be mean to)and being a little bit conversational (as opposed to saying nothing) has had the effect of her talking more also. She did talk to me about a few things that weren't "business" related, and really personal. So this actually meets a goal, and
I think I came close to the goal not to kid her. I failed the goal, but I don't think I made her angry with the kidding....
"kidding" that even risks making the other person angry (which usually covers the hurt) is not humor.
It's insulting or degrading in some way, to them. And it is done without you owning it, under the guise of "kidding."
Even if it were witty, it's at her expense. Stop it. I'm going to assume you weren't being clear here. Most humor could be offensive to someone. I understand this is good advice to not make your W unhappy, as I mentioned earlier. I'm not going to go so far as to agree that any comment is inappropriate if the other person deems it so. When taken to far, this line of reasoning makes no sense.The other edge to the conversational sword
is it gives more opportunity for her just under the surface anger towards me to come out, and it has a few times.
what is the upside to arousing her anger?
It is the other side of the sword. The double edged sword? There is no upside. It is the negative result of this approach.No big blow ups, but I did respond to her statement made out of frustration about me sleeping in the basement with "That's not happening." These little disagreements are very much in the pattern of the old R, but now I'm putting up with very little BS. I do need to stay zen,
and I need to seem more interested when her stories get dumb
Do you like your w?-
She was supposed to work on her resume Monday, but that didn't happen.
Seemingly the fault of the other party, but with W there is always an excuse.
Again, do you like your w? You sound quite critical of her, which is why I ask.
Like I've mentioned before: I like her when she can be friendly, but I don't like her when she is cold and bishy. Lately, no, I have not liked her.On tugging on my heartstrings front. The boys have been so cute lately in "family" ways. Ways that won't be the same when we split. Family is a big deal to them. They have friends, but no best buds.
Both my boys jumped on my lap, "Daddy!"
I told them that they were the two things that made me happy, then my eldest brings up "What about mommy?" At least they don't know what is happening yet!
what was the goal of saying that? Why not just say you love being with them?
I read back your whole thread to get to this point just in case I misconstrued your words. I don't think I have.
Through out your thread here there are numerous pejoratives attached to your wife, a lot of "she's so crazy" implications.
The only thing you seem to want to work on, in you, is your tactical approach. Oh, and for you to stop needling her, which for some reason you believe is hilarious even when it's obvious it hurts her and the marriage. That is on you. (Which is good news in a way, b/c you can actually do something about it. No more helplessness).
The dynamic you have, (and maybe it's both of you), is to use passive aggressive snarky insults under the guise of "just joking!" That seems to substitute for true conversations, unless you have those too, and just don't tell us.
I've mentioned we don't really talk. We did argue about our problems in the M. She was never wrong, and didn't change anything. I realize now that my possibly passive/aggressive comments would come out. For a long time I didn't even know what passive/aggressive really meant, and still don't have a great handle on the term. I look it up and it points to a list of things I didn't do, and actually she is doing almost all of them now, but whatever. I know I would make some sort of comment to her, borne out of frustration, and not be fully aware of what I was doing.
From what I can tell, you don't seem to think it's mean spirited or unhealthy.
You do some manipulative things as well, but I don't want to go point by point.(The comment to your boys about how they (and they alone) are THE 2 (and only 2) things that make you happy is so transparent, I'm surprised you don't see it. I get the feeling you are blaming your w again, for damage to come. And you don't think you are playing a role in this at all. But you are.
I addressed the comments to the boys in the earlier thread.
Just wondering if maybe some of the labels you attach to her, really help you at all.
One of my goals of these posts was to find someone with experience in a similar BPD traits situation, or at least leave a trail for someone in my position down the road. I also hoped to learn what my chances were. You may think my comments are hyperbole, but they're not.
Seems to me she's had enough of the nasty critical commentary and you don't know another way to communicate. That is a fundamental problem, and an unloving dynamic. And it can be changed.
I'm sure she has.
But you are the broken piece that is not getting needed repairs. That is partly b/c you are too busy pointing out how your "MLC/BPD Wife" is the broken rusty fundamentally flawed, poorly designed wrench in the engine.
I think you really do want the marital dynamic to change. I suggest you Stop working on changing her. Change you.
And see this^^^ as the gift of empowerment, that it is. This is not hopeless, far from it. But work on what you can control - you - and look in the mirror for some of the issues in the m.
Yes I understand that DB is a process to work on you and not change the other, overtly at least. You seem to have a way of stating the obvious and turning it into an insult; even on matters where I have already stated I'm working on it. I'm the broken piece? Have you read the thread? I understand the concept of 2x4, and that you are an old timer. But you seem to be missing the mark here. And if this is an attempt at overshooting to make the 2x4 hit harder, I think you need to rethink your strategy. I've re-litigated this R, in light of your remarks trying to find a way to make it logically follow that I'm the broken piece and all of the W's actions are a result of this. So I make passive aggressive comments and it results in all of the W's behavior? If you simply take spouse A and list her behavior, and spouse B, and list his behavior; it becomes pretty clear who caused what. The end result is I was pi$$ed off for two days on vacation having relived the R. The further I get from the R, the more screwed up I realize the whole thing was. I don't think it is a coincidence that the whole thing fell apart once I caught on and wasn't being duped by her explanations on why everything was my fault.
What kind of relationships did you have with your siblings growing up? And your parents? How was forgiveness modeled?
My siblings were 12 and 14 years older than I. They're crazy about me and acted almost like second parents. My parents love me. No doubts there. Through and before this my dad has become my best friend in a way. He gives to me all he can. It's become no secret that I'm mom's favorite.
Forgiveness? I can't remember it being modeled. My dad likes to joke that once you're on mom's bad side, it is too late. My sister too. It is just in them. My dad is forgiving. I've had to forgive friends for past indiscretions and done it just fine. I've forgiven past girlfriends too.
Were there many compliments given? And how were those compliments, if any, received? A gracious "thank you" or a dismissive redirection or what?
I don't remember many specifically. I was praised generally for being smart, for being a good soccer player, for being a good singer, for being a good boy and well behaved. To others dad was always extremely complimentary, my mom was not. It is hard to get a compliment from her, although she's changed in old age. Dad is dismissive of the compliments he receives, then says thank you.
Dig deep.
If you really want your m to work, there are some fundamental changes you can make that will improve all of Your r's in life.
Do you live on the west coast or east? There are workshops that can help you with this. I think their continuity (a few days in a row, as opposed to weekly therapy) can help you see the path of your comments BEFORE you make them. Learn new positive loving ways to communicate and establish healthy boundaries without tearing anyone else down.
If you are witty, there are ways to enjoy a good sense of humor and laughter is incredibly bonding.
Learn to replace the pattern of "zingers!" into a healthier kinder more loving relationship.
I happen to believe your w wants that^^^. I don't think she's crazy or selfish. Or at least not in an extreme way. At least not from what I'm reading in these posts.
I think she craves intimacy without all the jabs. Those comments eat away at our self esteem until we become people we never wanted to become. Angry, defensive, over reactive. Clearly those are protective tools.
People can change. You can learn to reframe your commentary and negative views of her - which set you up for jabbing her and sets her up overreact, (& then you point out her reaction to your innocent "kidding" to justify your negative perceptions of her.)
AND Then, Rinse, repeat.
What are you doing to change how You interact with her? And to see your motivations?
Also I hope you won't make anymore remarks to your kids which are thinly veiled jabs at your wife. It really is not good for them. And they are learning how to treat their future wives, from you. Think about that.
Hang in there, you can change the course of this ship if you truly truly want to.
Back from vacation. We were in a 7,000 sq. ft. house on the beach with friends, so it is hard not to have a good time; but it was oddly lonely. I wasn't really expecting that. I was surrounded by families, and I just have this zombie (to me at least) of a person to tiptoe around. I won't be going on vacation with her again.
I was only able to control my reaction once out of three incidents. Her hair trigger has become my hair trigger. I didn't really think about my DB strategy while I was down there. I'm just kind of done with the whole thing. I read 25MLC's comments on my phone and re-litigated the R. It just pi$$ed me off all over again about my W. For two days it just kept running through my head off and on "I friggin' hate you". Not good for a reconciliation.
We played this question game one night. W was totally drunk. She won the questions "Whose promises are like lottery tickets" and "Who most carefully crafts their social media image" I won some questions that really boosted my confidence. Anyway, the whole vacation was a mixed bag. Vacation used to be the one time when W would be happy and nice to me. Not anymore.
I'm not making any rash decisions since I don't like emotion ruling the day, but right now I just want her to get a job and get out.
On Tuesday I came home from work early. The W had a Dunkin' Donuts coffee. I cheerily asked her if she used the T-Mobile Tuesday deal for the coffee, and she said she did. Earlier, I had sent her some things she could buy the kids for Christmas with the free $20 to mlbshop.com from the T-Mobile app. She said she bought something different, but got confused and didn't use the coupon. So I said"You paid full-price?" trying not to sound accusatory. I kept a straight face too, not trying to upset her. She ended up upset anyway and blamed me for this mistake that she now had to fix. I didn't say anything, but it set this downward spiral in motion.
I put on my workout shorts with no shirt (my progress in getting in shape bothers and upsets her) which probably pushed her further along. She was changing the bed sheets and brought up me sleeping in the basement again. I again told her that if it bothered her, she could sleep down there. The yelling began, and she said how the week of vacation with me was terrible, and if I didn't sleep in the basement, she would just move out. I tried to argue at first, but then remembered validation. I tried it, but she kept yelling over me, so I then reverted to arguing.
She wanted to sleep with the kids on vacation. I didn't because they keep me up all night, (which they did). She said "Poor baby doesn't get his sleep", then tells me how she doesn't sleep well sleeping next to me.
She said nothing is happening to me, as in no negative consequences to the divorce. I told her she's ruining my life and my kids' life, that's enough "happening". I told her to get a job, and then she can move out all she wants. She tells me she doesn't have a resume, so she can't (she's into her second month of talking about this resume that she can't do by herself). I tell her I'll get it done tonight, these people have already said they want her. Anyway, the argument went on for awhile, excuses on top of excuses.
It becomes clearer to me now that some of her dumb excuses are because she won't state the real reason she is doing anything. Another late discovery that does little to help me now.
I tell her I will sleep in the basement if she agrees to let me stay in the house. We had basically come to this agreement previously, but in the argument she starts backsliding. I know her word is worthless, but it was better than nothing.
I know this was a total DB failure, but I have lost almost all respect for her. She has contradicted herself on so many things, it just makes me want to puke. My patience is gone which makes me a failure at DB. At least some of the DB principals will help me minimize the damage from the D. She absolutely can't stand her mother, but is going to end up just like her.
The yelling began, and she said how the week of vacation with me was terrible, and if I didn't sleep in the basement, she would just move out. I tried to argue at first, but then remembered validation. I tried it, but she kept yelling over me, so I then reverted to arguing.
Do you have any more concrete examples, because Im having trouble what this means. You started by arguing, which I assumes means yelling. Then you tried validating...for a little bit? and then back to yelling?
Validation isnt a strategy to 'try' for a couple minutes. Its a systematic behavioral change towards being more empathetic. Its about working towards understanding what she is feeling. I dont understand why that is a skill to turn on or off. It isnt about speaking softly or agreeing. its about expressing your acknowledgment of the other person's feelings.
She said nothing is happening to me, as in no negative consequences to the divorce. I told her she's ruining my life and my kids' life, that's enough "happening".
Ugh. Stop giving her so much emotional power over you. I am divorced from someone who I used to think I couldnt live without. I promise...your life isnt ruined. And I also promise you that my children's lives arent ruined.
I told her to get a job, and then she can move out all she wants. She tells me she doesn't have a resume, so she can't (she's into her second month of talking about this resume that she can't do by herself). I tell her I'll get it done tonight, these people have already said they want her. Anyway, the argument went on for awhile, excuses on top of excuses.
Next time, just walk away. No good can come from emotional drag-down arguments. Like...why would you make her resume? You already laid out your thoughts - Im sleeping here, you can sleep where you want. If shes set on moving out, then let her figure out a way to do it.
It becomes clearer to me now that some of her dumb excuses are because she won't state the real reason she is doing anything. Another late discovery that does little to help me now.
Im not sure Im following you. What 'real reasons'? My opinion is that whatever they are...they dont matter much.
I know this was a total DB failure, but I have lost almost all respect for her. She has contradicted herself on so many things, it just makes me want to puke. My patience is gone which makes me a failure at DB. At least some of the DB principals will help me minimize the damage from the D. She absolutely can't stand her mother, but is going to end up just like her.
OK. Take a few breaths and calm down. Yes, this sounds like a rough encounter. Tey happen. So get back on your house and keep going. If the "DB principles" are actually going to mean anything to you, then you know that they arent really exclusive to a failing marriage...they are tentposts to help you have successful relationships. So why would you stop applying them just because of this argument?
^^^Great stuff from Kaizen!!! I second it all!!^^^
She was changing the bed sheets and brought up me sleeping in the basement again. I again told her that if it bothered her, she could sleep down there.
Yes, good.
The yelling began, and she said how the week of vacation with me was terrible, and if I didn't sleep in the basement, she would just move out. I tried to argue at first, but then remembered validation.
Not sure what you said in validation, but it should have been something along the lines of "You sound upset, I am sorry you feel that way. Again I will say that if you want to sleep in the basement then I will not stop you, that is your choice and I will respect it." Stand your ground on staying in the bedroom, but don't argue about it, just be consistent on your position.
She said nothing is happening to me, as in no negative consequences to the divorce. I told her she's ruining my life and my kids' life, that's enough "happening".
As Kaizen said, you're giving her too much power. Your response should have been some pretty simple validating- "I can tell you are going through a lot, I'm sorry this is so difficult for you." Believe me I know how tough it is because I did it with my W. It was soooo tempting to tell her how much she was tearing me apart and try to guilt-trip her. But I was pretty good at validating, and it is AMAZING at how well it works to defuse tense situations. But like Kaizen said, it's not something you do for a few minutes or even days or weeks. It is a behavioral change you must make permanently if not for this R then for the next one.
I told her to get a job, and then she can move out all she wants. She tells me she doesn't have a resume, so she can't (she's into her second month of talking about this resume that she can't do by herself). I tell her I'll get it done tonight, these people have already said they want her. Anyway, the argument went on for awhile, excuses on top of excuses.
Here are some questions I seriously want you to meditate on- what was resolved in that fight? Probably nothing on either side. So what good did it do? What harm did it do? What can you do DIFFERENTLY next time to change the dynamic? Because SHE is not going to change, that's on YOU.
I tell her I will sleep in the basement if she agrees to let me stay in the house.
Brother, you have got to be CONSISTENT. Did you not just tell her twice that it's HER choice to sleep in the basement? Now you're saying you will? Are you not REWARDING her for starting a fight with you? Legally she can't kick you out of the house so there's no need to negotiate that with her.
My patience is gone which makes me a failure at DB.
DBing isn't about being perfect all the time, because if it were then we're all failures! It's about learning from your mistakes, improving yourself so you don't make those mistakes again, picking yourself up and moving forward.