Newbie here looking for some advice. Two months ago my wife of 5 years (friends for many years before that) suddenly decided that she wants to be single again. Says there's nobody else just that she misses having a small apartment to maintain and "not having to do everything around here". I asked her to go to marriage counseling and she agreed. During our sessions she tells the counselor that I'm her best friend but she wants to leave me because there's no passion, I'm not fun and our life is too routine.
Within several appointments he asks to meet with me one on one. During this session he tells me that I am harboring shame from childhood and that I'm codependent. He proceeds to tell me to stop trying to please my wife because it's not working and is actually pushing her away. He wants me to only do things that I want to do. Stop doing things to please her and stop fishing for compliments. He said he is going to teach me how to detach from her.
After reading a few codependency books, they all seem to say that the codependent is in love with a narcissist and that they must get away. Essentially narcissists are the devil and you must run from them at all costs. My wife has some of these narcissistic traits (lots of people probably do) but she was in the past someone who cared very deeply for me and our relationship. Is there any chance that my shame/codependency issues are what really caused the issues in our relationship? Am I trying to save a marriage that shouldn't be saved? Is my counselor trying to tell me to get away from her?
I also feel like I should mention that now months later my wife is still sleeping in our marital bed with me and has made zero effort to leave. She still rejects affection and complains about me as a husband on a fairly regular basis but also thanks me for household tasks. She seems to check most of the boxes for a MLC.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Hello mxdup,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
He proceeds to tell me to stop trying to please my wife because it's not working and is actually pushing her away. He wants me to only do things that I want to do. Stop doing things to please her and stop fishing for compliments. He said he is going to teach me how to detach from her.
Even though you have good intentions, pursuing your wife in this way is having the opposite effect.
I also feel like I should mention that now months later my wife is still sleeping in our marital bed with me and has made zero effort to leave. She still rejects affection and complains about me as a husband on a fairly regular basis but also thanks me for household tasks. She seems to check most of the boxes for a MLC.
Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
I would hold off on pursuing affection at this point. However there are things that could work and make a difference. I suggest you speak to a DB coach, as they are experts in looking at what has happened to bring you to this point in your relationship and what is the best way to interact with her, so that you are most likely to bring her closer and not push her any further away. Your coach's expertise will help you come up with a very specific plan (that may be counter intuitive to what you feel like saying and doing) on how to best turn things around. I wish you all the best and would be happy to discuss the coaching with you.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Hi mxdup,
No one here is going to be able to tell you if you're codependent or if your wife is a narcissist based on the brief description you've shared above, and really a diagnosis like that is beyond what you should expect to find on a public forum as I doubt anyone here has a degree in psychology.
We can offer you support and advice in reaching your goals, so tell us more -- what do *you* think of what your counselor is saying?
*Why* do you want to save your marriage?
What do you think of your wife's complaints that there is no passion between you?
What are you passionate about?
What are your goals for yourself?
Tell us more about what you want to accomplish and what you think is really going on here. Dig deep.
Acc
We can offer you support and advice in reaching your goals, so tell us more -- what do *you* think of what your counselor is saying? I believe the counselor is trying to get me to let her go. If I only do things that I want to do, this will push her out the door. Who actually wants to do household chores?
*Why* do you want to save your marriage? I want to save my marriage because being with her has been the happiest time of my life.
What do you think of your wife's complaints that there is no passion between you? I can't say I disagree. She has pushed me away over the past year by working more hours. I'm lucky if I see her for more than a few minutes a day.
What are you passionate about? Other than her? Following the stock market. Studying self help books.
What are your goals for yourself? To retire once the house is paid for in 12 years. Otherwise. IDK
Tell us more about what you want to accomplish and what you think is really going on here. Dig deep. I want to work together towards common goals. I think she would rather be with someone more adventurous, spontaneous, interesting. I'm pretty boring compared to her. I go to work every day, keep up with the household chores, etc. She likes to go to heavy metal concerts and jump out of airplanes. I'm not trying to sound pathetic but I was flabbergasted when I found out that she liked me. I seriously have no idea what she saw in me. If I could figure that out, it would probably be the switch I need to flip to change her mind.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
I believe the counselor is trying to get me to let her go. If I only do things that I want to do, this will push her out the door. Who actually wants to do household chores?
You're probably right about that -- counselors will often be convinced that the best thing for the couple is to separate and view it as their job to help the reluctant party accept the outcome. On the other hand, it would be irresponsible to couch that in a diagnosis of narcissism and codependency. Do you reject the counselors codependency assessment? (I'm not saying the counselor is right at all, I'm asking what you think)
I agree with you that when you're in a relationship you can't just do whatever you want, that would be irresponsible.
I want to save my marriage because being with her has been the happiest time of my life.
Why? What did the marriage give you that made you so happy, and what did she do that made you so happy? It's unusual for a marriage to have one super happy spouse and one upset spouse. Typically both people are unhappy to varying degrees.
I can't say I disagree. She has pushed me away over the past year by working more hours. I'm lucky if I see her for more than a few minutes a day.
So in this analysis the lack of passion is 100% due to her pushing you away. That may be completely accurate but I just want to challenge you to push a bit deeper -- do you own any part of the lack of passion? If so, what?
You say that you are passionate about the stock market and self help books. Is your wife passionate about those things as well? What passions do you share or have you shared historically? What is she passionate about right now and is there any way you can participate in that?
I want to work together towards common goals. I think she would rather be with someone more adventurous, spontaneous, interesting. I'm pretty boring compared to her. I go to work every day, keep up with the household chores, etc. She likes to go to heavy metal concerts and jump out of airplanes. I'm not trying to sound pathetic but I was flabbergasted when I found out that she liked me. I seriously have no idea what she saw in me. If I could figure that out, it would probably be the switch I need to flip to change her mind.
That is a fairly low self-esteem outlook right? You're describing yourself as non-adventurous, non-spontaneous, uninteresting and boring. If you see yourself that way, she will too (and so will everyone else).
Turning this around starts with you, but you have to *want* to change it. If you're just doing it as a tactic to get her back, she'll see through it and it won't work at all.
I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with you or that you need to do some kind of crazy personality reversal -- everybody lives on a spectrum. If your current tolerance of spontaneity and adventure is a 3, can you set a goal to make it a 4? That's different from trying to make it a 10. Focus on baby steps. If you were more adventuresome, spontaneous, interesting and engaging what would you be doing? Figure that out, and then try doing that and see how you feel, *or* decide that you're just fine the way you are and if she doesn't like it she can pound sand. It's your choice to make what you want to do. She's established that the current relationship equilibrium isn't working for her, so you can either say "goodbye good luck" or change things up.
In terms of what your wife saw in you, or why she was attracted to you to begin with, the answer is that because she saw something in you that appealed to something she needs, maybe subconsciously. Typically the things we love about someone are the same things we hate -- it's a ying/yang. If you love someone because they are spontaneous, you will also typically hate that they are unpredictable. If you love that someone is outgoing, you may eventually hate the fact that they don't spend enough time focusing on the relationship, etc. etc.
As with everything else, these things are on a spectrum. If you "need" someone who is spontaneous, you can either end up with someone who's a "10" on the scale and is completely unreliable, or you can end up with someone who is a "6" and is spontaneous "enough" of the time, but can also be responsible when they need to be, or for the things that matter.
For your wife, she may have loved your stability and reliability. Maybe when you met you were a "7" on the stability/reliability scale and since getting married you've moved to a "9" and now she doesn't like it. Or maybe you were always a "9" but she convinced herself you were a "7".
I believe what your counselor is suggesting is that you try moving down this scale, become more spontaneous and more adventuresome. I believe the counselor's recommendation would represent an extreme change to how you operate, and that's not realistic. Instead of going from a "9" to a "1", try going from a "9" to an "8", and then two weeks later to a "7".
Your wife will notice, and you have time, you have much more time than you think you have. Focus on you and decide what you want, and what you're willing to do to get it.
Acc
I believe the counselor is trying to get me to let her go. If I only do things that I want to do, this will push her out the door. Who actually wants to do household chores?
You're probably right about that -- counselors will often be convinced that the best thing for the couple is to separate and view it as their job to help the reluctant party accept the outcome. On the other hand, it would be irresponsible to couch that in a diagnosis of narcissism and codependency. Do you reject the counselors codependency assessment? (I'm not saying the counselor is right at all, I'm asking what you think)
Either one of those things could make me codependent. I agree with you that when you're in a relationship you can't just do whatever you want, that would be irresponsible.
I want to save my marriage because being with her has been the happiest time of my life.
Why? What did the marriage give you that made you so happy, and what did she do that made you so happy? It's unusual for a marriage to have one super happy spouse and one upset spouse. Typically both people are unhappy to varying degrees.
I can't say I disagree. She has pushed me away over the past year by working more hours. I'm lucky if I see her for more than a few minutes a day.
So in this analysis the lack of passion is 100% due to her pushing you away. That may be completely accurate but I just want to challenge you to push a bit deeper -- do you own any part of the lack of passion? If so, what?
You say that you are passionate about the stock market and self help books. Is your wife passionate about those things as well? What passions do you share or have you shared historically? What is she passionate about right now and is there any way you can participate in that?
I want to work together towards common goals. I think she would rather be with someone more adventurous, spontaneous, interesting. I'm pretty boring compared to her. I go to work every day, keep up with the household chores, etc. She likes to go to heavy metal concerts and jump out of airplanes. I'm not trying to sound pathetic but I was flabbergasted when I found out that she liked me. I seriously have no idea what she saw in me. If I could figure that out, it would probably be the switch I need to flip to change her mind.
That is a fairly low self-esteem outlook right? You're describing yourself as non-adventurous, non-spontaneous, uninteresting and boring. If you see yourself that way, she will too (and so will everyone else).
Turning this around starts with you, but you have to *want* to change it. If you're just doing it as a tactic to get her back, she'll see through it and it won't work at all.
I'm not suggesting there is anything wrong with you or that you need to do some kind of crazy personality reversal -- everybody lives on a spectrum. If your current tolerance of spontaneity and adventure is a 3, can you set a goal to make it a 4? That's different from trying to make it a 10. Focus on baby steps. If you were more adventuresome, spontaneous, interesting and engaging what would you be doing? Figure that out, and then try doing that and see how you feel, *or* decide that you're just fine the way you are and if she doesn't like it she can pound sand. It's your choice to make what you want to do. She's established that the current relationship equilibrium isn't working for her, so you can either say "goodbye good luck" or change things up.
In terms of what your wife saw in you, or why she was attracted to you to begin with, the answer is that because she saw something in you that appealed to something she needs, maybe subconsciously. Typically the things we love about someone are the same things we hate -- it's a ying/yang. If you love someone because they are spontaneous, you will also typically hate that they are unpredictable. If you love that someone is outgoing, you may eventually hate the fact that they don't spend enough time focusing on the relationship, etc. etc.
As with everything else, these things are on a spectrum. If you "need" someone who is spontaneous, you can either end up with someone who's a "10" on the scale and is completely unreliable, or you can end up with someone who is a "6" and is spontaneous "enough" of the time, but can also be responsible when they need to be, or for the things that matter.
For your wife, she may have loved your stability and reliability. Maybe when you met you were a "7" on the stability/reliability scale and since getting married you've moved to a "9" and now she doesn't like it. Or maybe you were always a "9" but she convinced herself you were a "7".
I believe what your counselor is suggesting is that you try moving down this scale, become more spontaneous and more adventuresome. I believe the counselor's recommendation would represent an extreme change to how you operate, and that's not realistic. Instead of going from a "9" to a "1", try going from a "9" to an "8", and then two weeks later to a "7".
Your wife will notice, and you have time, you have much more time than you think you have. Focus on you and decide what you want, and what you're willing to do to get it.
Acc
Yes it does feel like that -- for men in particular we want to fix things now! It can also feel like every interaction is incredibly important and takes on so much gravitas which makes you feel like you have to do and say everything absolutely correctly.
In reality there is never a quick fix, putting things back right takes lots of time, it's a marathon not a sprint.
Your best prescription is to give her more space than she wants and focus on you and not her. She will do what she wants and you can either fight her or stay out of the way, but you really can't change her frame of mind through a frontal assault.
Instead you have to back WAY off, slowly make your changes and she will notice. I often tell people that the shortest path back together is a straight line in the opposite direction. If you can drop the rope and just let her go you stand the very best chance of getting her back.
Acc
Thanks again Accuray.
Last night I believe I got my first temp check while she was opening a new bar of soap (she was getting ready for her shower). She said something along the lines of this will probably be the last bar I open here. She said it just loud enough for me to hear. I completely ignored the comment and walked downstairs to give her privacy.
mxdup,
Yep, that sounds like a temp check. You did good!
The more I read about codependency, the more I seem to make sense of hints that she's been telling me for years. I'm glad that she works late tonight because I have this overwhelming urge to apologize.
How should I handle the Mrs wanting to hang out as friends? She asked me if I wanted to go see a movie with her tonight. I'm not delusional enough to think this is some kind of date night. Given that she told the counselor that I'm her best friend, I'm assuming she wants a buddy to see the movie with. Part of me thinks that I should tell her thanks but no thanks and GAL but part of me thinks she should spend some time having fun with me. Keep in mind we still live together and she's only mentioned leaving, not actually taken any steps.
Just for background she also told the counselor that I'm no fun. She basically only told him 3 reasons why she wants to leave. 1) We live like roommates with a boring routine 2) He's no fun and never wants to do anything 3) There's no passion so I feel like there's nothing left to work on.
How should I handle the Mrs wanting to hang out as friends? She asked me if I wanted to go see a movie with her tonight.
mxdup,
I don't know what to tell you about going with her to the movie. What concerns me is that you feel like she's been pushing you away for the past year and that she's been working more hours during that time. Those are both indicators that there's a third party in the mix (even though she claims otherwise). Her reasons for wanting a divorce seem rather hollow. It's the kind of stuff both of you could work on and resolve. My feeling is that she's trying to keep you in the friend zone because she's not yet fully committed to whomever it is that she met at work.
As usual, my disclaimer is that I'm often wrong; be sure to get input from others.
How should I handle the Mrs wanting to hang out as friends? She asked me if I wanted to go see a movie with her tonight.
mxdup,
I don't know what to tell you about going with her to the movie. What concerns me is that you feel like she's been pushing you away for the past year and that she's been working more hours during that time. Those are both indicators that there's a third party in the mix (even though she claims otherwise). Her reasons for wanting a divorce seem rather hollow. It's the kind of stuff both of you could work on and resolve. My feeling is that she's trying to keep you in the friend zone because she's not yet fully committed to whomever it is that she met at work.
As usual, my disclaimer is that I'm often wrong; be sure to get input from others.
She actually has since quit her main job where she was working so many hours. She now only works her part time job which is only a few days a week.
I agree her reasons seem very hollow. When the bomb drop occurred she never actually said the D word. She said that we had grown apart and that she missed her apartment that she had when we were dating. She has mentioned numerous times that she feels like she has to do everything. With that said, I do 90% of all household work because she was working so much. She also says on a regular basis that I'm lazy and that I never do anything. I've asked her for examples but she can't provide any. When I remind her of the household chores she just gets angry and brings up something from months ago. "Remember last November when I told you that I needed a shelf hung up? That took you weeks." Then she usually goes on a tantrum saying things like you can't help me, nobody can and I need to clone myself. It's very obvious that she's stressed out and overwhelmed but suddenly one day I became the problem. Now that she's quit her main job she should be experiencing a huge stress relief so we'll see how that plays out.
"Remember last November when I told you that I needed a shelf hung up? That took you weeks."
mxdup,
Now I understand. You'e one of those guys who took several weeks to hang a shelf. Listen buster, that's a deal breaker. No wonder she's so upset. What were you thinking?
It sounds like she is mean to you and doesn't respect you. It appears to me you need to pull back on the Beta activity and up the Alpha activity. Set some boundaries for yourself and stop doing all the chores. Make time for yourself, go out with some guy friends, plan activities without her involved.
I'm not an expert but just my 10 cents.
Your original question was about the movies. Your call but most vets around here would probably tell you to decline because you have wonderful activities planned for yourself!
During our sessions she tells the counselor that I'm her best friend but she wants to leave me because there's no passion, I'm not fun and our life is too routine.
Sounds like she's an adrenaline junkie. Maybe like Acc suggested, you can lean a little more in that direction? You want to attract her back, it sounds like that would be a good place to start. And who knows, you might find you enjoy it!
He proceeds to tell me to stop trying to please my wife because it's not working and is actually pushing her away. He wants me to only do things that I want to do. Stop doing things to please her and stop fishing for compliments. He said he is going to teach me how to detach from her.
That's actually some very sound advice and very much in line with DB'ing.
After reading a few codependency books, they all seem to say that the codependent is in love with a narcissist and that they must get away.
Ha! You've got to love it when things are stated so black-and-white. We're all codependent in marriage to some extent, that doesn't mean our spouses are all narcissists and that we need to get away from them.
Is my counselor trying to tell me to get away from her?
You want a C that is aligned with your goals. If he suggests you need to D her, then drop him and find another C.
How should I handle the Mrs wanting to hang out as friends? She asked me if I wanted to go see a movie with her tonight.
If you want to go and can go with no expectations, then go have fun!
With that said, I do 90% of all household work because she was working so much.
But she works part time now? STOP DOING ALL THE HOUSEHOLD WORK. That's beta behavior and not attractive. She's telling you she wants you to be more adventurous and less boring, for god's sake stop washing dishes and doing laundry! You're not going to die if you let the clothes pile up a little. Let it go, and if she complains then remind her that she's the one with the part time job and that you're not her servant. Then tell her you're meeting some friends and go have a beer somewhere.
Then she usually goes on a tantrum saying things like you can't help me, nobody can and I need to clone myself.
If you're doing all the chores, then what it is she's talking about needing help with? Seems like there's some piece of the story missing here. Just curious.
How should I handle the Mrs wanting to hang out as friends? She asked me if I wanted to go see a movie with her tonight. I'm not delusional enough to think this is some kind of date night. Given that she told the counselor that I'm her best friend, I'm assuming she wants a buddy to see the movie with. Part of me thinks that I should tell her thanks but no thanks and GAL but part of me thinks she should spend some time having fun with me. Keep in mind we still live together and she's only mentioned leaving, not actually taken any steps.
What do you want? Are you okay with a "best friends" relationship with her? If you are, then act on that basis.
If you're not, then decide what you do want, and pursue that. This isn't about making her happy, it's about getting the relationship that you want.
Something that may be counter-intuitive is that your wife wants you to push back more. She wants you to argue and say "no" when you don't agree.
If she sees you stand up for yourself when she pushes you, then she knows you'll stand up for her if you need to. If she pushes you and you just do whatever you want to make her happy, then she doesn't feel secure that you've got her back.
Going to the movie is a nuanced question. If you're going to see "Sophie's Tears" or something that holds absolutely no interest for you, then the answer is "no". If it's something you both want to see, and you can hold yourself with confidence and give off the air that you're there because you want to be, not because you need to be, then yes, you should go.
If your wife has a tantrum, its your responsibility to call her on that -- tell her you won't be spoken to that way. You understand she's upset, but that is not on you.
Acc
Thanks guys. While it does sound like she's mean from what I shared, you are only hearing my side.
I have stopped doing all of the chores, now that she is working less she can do her share. I do realize the vets would probably say to decline and GAL. I feel as though deliberately going out when I have no plans to just because she is home is like hiding from her. Tonight just happens to be a night when we both plan on being around the house.
This GAL thing is really hard for me. I have been going out with the guys regularly (at least once a week) since this all started months ago and I'm already sick of that environment. With that said my counselor is telling me that I should only do what I want to do. I don't like to go out all the time. It's a waste of money and I feel like I'm doing something I'm not wanting to do or trying to be someone or something I'm not. It reminds me of my single days and I was miserable then. I'd much rather go to the gym or do something on my own. I went to the gym last night.
Just a quick update:
We did not go to the movies last night. She arrived home in a great mood from quitting her job. We watched a bit of TV together and it felt a little too much like the past (too routine). I got up and went to the store so that we could both have some space. When I returned I went to another room and watched a movie.
I have been going out with the guys regularly (at least once a week) since this all started months ago and I'm already sick of that environment. With that said my counselor is telling me that I should only do what I want to do. I don't like to go out all the time. It's a waste of money and I feel like I'm doing something I'm not wanting to do or trying to be someone or something I'm not................I'd much rather go to the gym or do something on my own.
GAL doesn't mean "go out with the guys and feel like you're wasting money and do something you don't want to do." Your answer is in the last part of the quote..... If you want to go to the gym or do something on your own, then that's what you should do.
GAL doesn't mean "go out with the guys and feel like you're wasting money and do something you don't want to do." Your answer is in the last part of the quote..... If you want to go to the gym or do something on your own, then that's what you should do.
Thanks Jim. I think I discovered that on my own this weekend.
I'm not exactly sure what happened but I had some powerful thoughts this weekend and am in a great place this morning. More than anything I decided to take some responsibility for how my wife is feeling. Journaling that process seems to have made me realize that she is telling the truth about how she's feeling. I kept looking to blame her for going crazy, MLC, hormones, listening to a friend, etc. I think the truth is she's miserable and doesn't see things getting better as long as she's with me. My focus needs to be on changing the things I agree with and GAL whether she comes around or not.
My focus needs to be on changing the things I agree with and GAL whether she comes around or not.
mxdup,
Now you're in the zone. Good for you! When your wife realizes that you'll be just fine without her, it changes the dynamics of the relationship.
So just a quick update:
The W spent most of the weekend with me and it's messing with my head. I did just as my therapist said to do, invite her to do something you enjoy and if she doesn't come along, go anyway. So I invited her to the music store, she came along. Then she wanted to go to another store that we both like going to and then we went to dinner together. The following morning, she wanted to go to breakfast together. Then she said that she had studying to do all afternoon. I decided to go to a movie while she studied. Guess what? She came along to the movie too.
Is this her reacting to my GAL or is she just hanging out with a friend? I know it shouldn't matter but it does to me. Honestly, I was in a much better place mentally before she wanted to be around me lol.
When my sons were young, I used to read a children's book to them that's titled "If You Give a Moose a Muffin." Your weekend sounds very much like the story line of the book.
I've really come to grips with the fact that my W is very hurt by my previous actions. I was a "beta" husband who did all the household chores and it was never good enough for her. Since the BD in late May I have realized that my passiveness was mistaken for not caring. I have realized that I was pushing her away (w/o realizing it) because of her negative attitude towards me. After spending time with her this weekend I feel the need to validate some of her feelings.
Suggestions on how to do this without taking all the blame?
Look at Wonka's cheat sheet that is stickied to the newcomers for validation - I've been using that when the opportunity arose. Takes practice for the W to really believe it because you are changing up your script. Practice for a bit, even in the mirror if you can. The more you use it the more natural it will become.
Is she in a place where she can 'hear' you? I mean really 'hear' you? Can she listen to you? If she isn't, don't even try to talk to her about the blame game. My W also blames me a lot, and I did a lot of the beta husband things you mentioned, but she contributed a lot to the breakdown of the MR. I am seeing that now. What do you see that she was doing as a beta W?
If she wants to blame you, just validate her feelings using a variation of examples from Wonka's sheet. Don't get defensive, but don't be a doormat.
If you read my sitch, I have written about an episode in the last weeks where I was trying to validate and W snapped at me and I just gave her a calm response and said a number of things - stuff that goes against DBing. But it felt right and natural in the moment and I didn't want to be misunderstood. My silence on what she brought up would have been read as confirmation to her and so I had to break that. I don't think she heard me because she's not in a place to hear me yet, but I wasn't going to just cave in to whatever her interpretation of my behaviour was - I stood up for myself and I didn't care how she took my reaction.
The blamegame will continue until she looks at how she also is responsible for the situation. Until she gets there, you can't convince her otherwise. I just choose not to be a doormat and stay in limbo and wait for that to happen - it may never happen or happen way past my own timeline.
So, there is a nuance, but practice validation. If she reacts poorly to it, come back and post the convo here and lets see what the vets have to say.
Thanks Maika. Yes she is starting to listen and look around as if she just came out of a fog. Over the weekend she noticed several changes around the house that have been there for weeks.
Right now she's not really blaming me for anything. Honestly I think she's too hurt/fragile for that right now. We are talking like friends and things are quite civil. What I'm talking about are the little comments she made in the past which I took the wrong way. I now realize that she was trying to tell me how I was hurting her and how unhappy she was becoming. I instead heard her as being ridiculous and mean. I now realize this was not her intent. Therapy has actually taught me that I was hearing my overbearing mother not my W. This of course is very unfair to the W and I really want to validate/apologize for it. I have also learned that I was actually passive/aggressive at times as opposed to just beta. Again, I feel as though I should validate her feelings as they are at least to some extent justified.
Thanks for more details on this.
Is she at any point bringing up the MR? I think you should wait for an opening. I am not sure if you should initiate it and apologize for everything you have noted. If she's hurt and fragile right now, maybe be more careful because she might just need time and space rather than you saying anything.
One thing you can do without apologizing, and can be a 180, is if she's making little comments that you were taking the wrong way in the past, maybe clarify in a positive way or ask a question about it while communicating you are trying to understand what she is saying. I think that might be more powerful because she is seeing in action rather than you saying anything about the behaviour.
Definitely validate her, but maybe wait for her to bring it up.
Thanks for more details on this.
Is she at any point bringing up the MR? I think you should wait for an opening. I am not sure if you should initiate it and apologize for everything you have noted. If she's hurt and fragile right now, maybe be more careful because she might just need time and space rather than you saying anything.
One thing you can do without apologizing, and can be a 180, is if she's making little comments that you were taking the wrong way in the past, maybe clarify in a positive way or ask a question about it while communicating you are trying to understand what she is saying. I think that might be more powerful because she is seeing in action rather than you saying anything about the behaviour.
Definitely validate her, but maybe wait for her to bring it up.
Thank you. Great advice! No she's not talking about the MR and and she's also not talking about separation anymore either. I'm going to take you're advice and continue to 180. I will save the validation for later.
Well one of my suspicions is now confirmed. The W doesn't pay any attention to how I look, what I do around the house, etc.
What does it mean when the W doesn't really look at you? Over a month ago I shaved off my full beard which I've had for years in exchange for a goatee. Last night I trimmed the goatee and a few hours later she looked at me and said "you shaved off your beard". I trimmed the goatee I said. Her response "when did you have a goatee?" How could this woman possibly see me everyday for a month and not noticed that I shaved? Co-workers noticed but she didn't? The isn't the first time I've noticed this behavior over the past few weeks either. A week after I replaced the mailbox she commented that she just got mail out of the new box for the first time. This was on Saturday after she got mail Monday thru Friday out of it. The other day she asked me how to open the trunk of my car. Something she has done at least a dozen times before.
Is this a sign of stress? MLC? Confusion? Could she have something medically wrong with her (brain tumor)?
Yesterday the W and I did some talking through text about our relationship. Believe me it was not my intention to get into a R discussion. She mentioned wanting to move out so that she could think about things and then perhaps give me another chance. I suggested that we schedule a sit down talk so we can begin working on things right away and she acted as though I was pushing her and ended the conversation.
WS logic is anything from you is considered pushing. Even if they made the suggestion. They want you to shut up and simply nod.
Earlier this week I met with my counselor and when I explained the W's recent actions he read for me the signs of passive aggressive behavior. She has all but one. After doing some reading up, she's trying to manipulate me through P/A. She wants me to get angry and push her away. Now that I understand her behavior better I haven't fallen for it once. The results have been extremely confusing. 2 days after the change in my behavior (anti P/A) she came home from work and cuddled with me on the couch. This is the first time in 3 months.
Then today while I'm out and she's at home she texts me and says that our girl cat won't let her get anything done. She continues to say that she's tired of babysitting and that she'll be gone in a month. First of all this is her cat but during the bomb drop in May she told me that she was leaving both cats with me. I realize that all of this was to get a rise out of me but it's also interesting that since she can't blame me for her unhappiness it's now a cat's fault. Is there any way for her to healthily express this unresolved anger causing the P/A? Should I continue to ignore it?
Just a quick update:
The W and I spent labor day together hiking and talking. We talked like friends about our hopes and dreams. She seemed to talk about grandiose ideas which did not include a man (myself included). When we got home for the day, she went right back into P/A mode saying something about what a great guy I am and how she hopes I can find a really nice girl. I shouldn't of but I told her that discussing adultry of any kind was offensive to me. This led to a several hour conversation in which she said that she never felt loved by me. When I asked her if she ever felt love from any man, she said no. So in a nutshell she doesn't know how to accept love and I do a poor job of showing it. By the end of the conversation she said that it's too late to save any relationship because ours has been over for so long. Then she throws out that my GAL is proof that I don't care about her. She went on and on as if trying to justify ways that I don't love her. Are all of these things sign that DBing is working or just more confirmation that this is over?
One more thing:
She said repeatedly during that conversation that I didn't want to be with her, I just don't want to be alone. How do I prove her wrong?
This morning I awoke to an email from her about a house she's interested in buying. Once again I believe she was trying to get a rise out of me.
Okay - stop doing activities with her, especially stuff like hiking because you have a lot of time to kill with her and there has to be conversation. I turned down a hike just two weeks ago with W because it sounded ridiculous considering the sitch we're in.
What you said down there is a variation of many things my W has said to me post BD and before I started DBing. Right now she's associating you with all her problems - you need to take yourself out of the equation so that she can see that her troubles didn't just magically disappear once you weren't around.
By the end of the conversation she said that it's too late to save any relationship because ours has been over for so long. Then she throws out that my GAL is proof that I don't care about her. She went on and on as if trying to justify ways that I don't love her.
This is all rationalization on her part that she is doing the right thing. All you can do is validate here and say that you are sorry she feels this way - I can't come up with something else right now but Wonka's sheet has some good examples.
I think you need to have less contact with her.
My W at one point said something very similar. To which I laid exactly what I wanted:
"I understand you feel this way, but it's not true. I do not want the S/D. I'd like to work on our marital problems because S/D is not the solution in my opinion. But, if that's what you want, I won't stand in your way."
And then don't ever say it again. I did it a couple of times because I felt like WTF is she talking about and didn't she understand what I said the first time? They know, so don't keep saying it. It makes them even more mad.
I think your W is in fantasy land right now, with the house buying and all of this. My W was there but reality snapped once we were physically separated. Are you living together?
Yes we are still in the same house and she is still sleeping in our marital bed beside me each night. She has not packed one item but has mentioned that she will be gone within a month (early Oct). I think she is trying to get a rise out of me as our counselor (she no longer goes) has said that she has 6 out of 7 traits of a passive aggressive. Essentially she wants me to get angry so she can prove herself right. I also believe she is in MLC as she mentions her Dad getting too old to have fun with anymore and has recited her going to be 40 soon (she just turned 38).
Just a quick update:
The W and I spent labor day together hiking and talking. We talked like friends about our hopes and dreams. She seemed to talk about grandiose ideas which did not include a man (myself included). When we got home for the day, she went right back into P/A mode saying something about what a great guy I am and how she hopes I can find a really nice girl.
Someone above suggested that there were signs of a third party in the mix? So is this.
Someone above suggested that there were signs of a third party in the mix? So is this.
I'll admit that I have done no snooping to find out. Our MC straight out asked her and she said no. She has given me no reason to believe there is another man either.
Based on everything I've read I should not acknowledge any OM and work only on myself. Is that wrong?
No, it's not wrong. But it DOES change things. By doing things with her, you're letting her eat cake. She gets all the benefits of your M, PLUS whatever she gets out of a third party, if there is one.
Yeh it definitely changes things. Right now it looks all loosey-goosey and you're just going along. I think it's time for some action.
If you can't physically separate, and there is a real possibility of an OM - you need to DB hard. Otherwise, she will keep eating cake and you're going to be miserable and in limbo.
Best example of someone who did this - TxHubby. Have you read his sitch?
Yeh it definitely changes things. Right now it looks all loosey-goosey and you're just going along. I think it's time for some action.
If you can't physically separate, and there is a real possibility of an OM - you need to DB hard. Otherwise, she will keep eating cake and you're going to be miserable and in limbo.
Best example of someone who did this - TxHubby. Have you read his sitch?
No but thank you I will
No as in - you can't physically separate?
Okay - so I quickly went back and read some of your earlier posts to get a handle on your sitch.
She's not leaving, but wants to live a single life and have her own apartment - that's classic living in either a fantasy affair or there is someone already.
Looks like MC sessions aren't helping and her wanting to be your friend is not helping you either.
You're still in the marital bed with her but nothing going on right? Is that working for you?
So, what are you going to do?
No as in - you can't physically separate?
We can physically separate in the same house. I meant no I hadn't read his sich
In house separations are not good for your emotional and mental sanity. I did it briefly and it was horrendous.
Has she brought up moving out recently? I am guessing you're busy, but you haven't answered my other questions.
What's up?
Okay - so I quickly went back and read some of your earlier posts to get a handle on your sitch.
She's not leaving, but wants to live a single life and have her own apartment - that's classic living in either a fantasy affair or there is someone already.
Looks like MC sessions aren't helping and her wanting to be your friend is not helping you either.
You're still in the marital bed with her but nothing going on right? Is that working for you?
So, what are you going to do?
Yes she has said that she misses having her own place so that she doesn't have to worry about anyone but her.
The MC sessions ended in the 2nd session when she refused to contribute so the MC said that he couldn't help her if she wouldn't talk to him. I'm still going. He basically told me to GAL and leave her behind.
Yes we are still in the marital bed with her hugging her side.
What am I going to do? I still want her back no matter what has happened. Essentially she says she wants to leave, my MC says to let her go and yet I am still hanging on in misery. The sad fact is that even this misery is nothing compared to my single life before her. I had one serious girlfriend when I was 19 who broke my heart so I didn't even try to date for the next decade. When I was 30 another girl came into my life who left me 3 months later. I then spent the next 3 years dating every POS on the internet and it was so awful that I swore off dating. A few years later my future wife who was a former co-worker met me for dinner. We talked as friends for a month and then began dating. Our relationship was wonderful and we were both so happy. Within 2 years we were married. 3 years into the marriage my Dad died unexpectedly and I fell apart. The W had to do everything for me but goto work. This went on for about 6 months. Appx a year after that was the bomb drop. She has said that she just couldn't handle it all and I wasn't there to support her. She's telling the truth. Her BD was my wakeup call. I've put my life back together and I'm better than ever. I just want another chance at what we had. To make things worse, I am an only child and the passing of my father is also the end of my family. I literally have nobody but her and her family. I'm scared to death of being alone again and will not go back to internet dating. So what am I doing? Getting trampled upon and putting up with it.
Has she brought up moving out recently?
She hadn't mentioned it since the BD in late May and then out of the blue this past Saturday sends me a text about how one of the cats had wanted to cuddle with her all morning. Then she says I'm so tired of babysitting, I can't wait to leave here in a month.
I'm not sure how a 10 pound cat can ruin your whole day. I don't know what the significance of one month is because during the bomb drop she said she be gone in a year. None of her stories make any sense. I think it's some sort of MLC flight or fight mode.
I would also add that a buddy of mine at work who is a former teen counselor thinks that the W cheated on me around the BD time frame and regrets it. He says that all of her P/A is to get me to turn into a meanie so that she has a reason to justify her actions.
FWIW I often find the W crying alone in bed. That could be depression, regret or still trying to choose which life she wants.
There's a lot I want to respond with but I have to run. I will come back and respond.
In the meantime, read TxHubby's sitch here:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...478#Post2748478
Update. Last night the W finally talked to me about her plans. She signed a 1 year lease on an apartment and will move in the first week of October. She told me that there is no OM and there never has been one. She just wants to be alone to focus on school and to decide what she really wants in life. She claims that I'm always home and smother her so she has no time to study. She also said that she doesn't want a D, she just needs time to think and she can't do it with me around. Of course her being behind in school and having to work multiple jobs to pay for things she shouldn't buy is my fault. In reality she has chosen those things, she could easily be a stay at home wife. As is always with a MLC/WAW you can't believe much of what they say.
On a side note I do feel much better after talking to her. With her gone, I'll be able to focus on myself.
She signed a 1 year lease on an apartment and will move in the first week of October.
This will be good for you - gives you time and space and also will allow you to GAL, detach, and drop the rope.
She told me that there is no OM and there never has been one. She just wants to be alone to focus on school and to decide what she really wants in life.
I wouldn't believe anything she says at this point. There may not be an OM or evidence of an A, but there could totally also be a fantasy affair which is some perfect scenario in her head. Don't dwell on the A part, but I wouldn't trust her words right now.
Of course her being behind in school and having to work multiple jobs to pay for things she shouldn't buy is my fault.
Of course. She needs to blame someone and that person is you. Once she moves out and you're not in the equation and around, she will slowly realize her problems are her problems and not you.
As is always with a MLC/WAW you can't believe much of what they say.
Don't get hung up on the MLC part. People want to believe that their S is MLC because it gives them an excuse to not move on with their life and focus on themselves.
With her gone, I'll be able to focus on myself.
Precisely what you need to start right now any ways. Don't wait until she moves out. Just start.
Thank you Maika, I really needed to hear those things.
Let's jumpstart your DBing.
1. Do you have any health goals you want to achieve?
2. Do you have any other personal goals you want to achieve?
3. What are some activities you like doing?
4. What are some activities you were interested in or intrigued by, but never tried?
Also, considering how much contact you've had with her since BD as you were living in the same house, I would highly suggest that you do no contact and go dark once she moves out. At least for a little while to see what happens and how she reacts to it.
Make sure you come and post her reactions here so that folks can help you navigate it - whether its texts, emails, phone calls etc.
Let's jumpstart your DBing.
1. Do you have any health goals you want to achieve?
Yes, I want to lose about 50 pounds. I was over 320 when we first started dating, got down to 220 but am currently about 270.
2. Do you have any other personal goals you want to achieve?
Just a pile of books that I want to read.
3. What are some activities you like doing?
Hiking, riding my mountain bike, movies, video games, bonfires with friends
4. What are some activities you were interested in or intrigued by, but never tried? Learn to play guitar
Also, considering how much contact you've had with her since BD as you were living in the same house, I would highly suggest that you do no contact and go dark once she moves out. At least for a little while to see what happens and how she reacts to it.
Make sure you come and post her reactions here so that folks can help you navigate it - whether its texts, emails, phone calls etc.
I would also add that a buddy of mine at work who is a former teen counselor thinks that the W cheated on me around the BD time frame and regrets it. He says that all of her P/A is to get me to turn into a meanie so that she has a reason to justify her actions.
FWIW I often find the W crying alone in bed. That could be depression, regret or still trying to choose which life she wants.
I totally agree. She did, or is, cheating. That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it. If there's one thing I know...it's a cheating spouse.
Update. Last night the W finally talked to me about her plans. She signed a 1 year lease on an apartment and will move in the first week of October. She told me that there is no OM and there never has been one.
My life got much better after my W moved out. I was never able to confirm she had OM but I have always suspected it. I asked my W twice before she moved out and did some snooping but did not find anything. Mine signed a 1 yr lease as well.
Alright. you have your work cut out for yourself. Go lose that weight, read up on some good stuff, and learn that guitar so that you can find some jammin' buddies and start a band and go play some dive bars and get macked on by ladies....
Oh and buy a sweet new leather jacket and take that bike out more!
You have listed so many things that you like that you shouldn't have time to spare for her.
Also, it got hella easier once my W moved out - for GAL, detachment, and working on myself. Look forward to it because there is no shortcut here to achieving happiness - you need your own time.
So the W is acting very strange since she dropped the I'm moving out bomb 2 days ago. Yesterday she tells me that she took a half day at work so she could run errands. She arrived home at 9pm saying how tired she was from running around. I asked her if she got everything done and she said she probably left some things out. I'm assuming these are things related to her move but she never divulged any information. Then she says she's treating herself to going out to the movies for the new Reese Witherspoon flick. Invites me to come along and offers to pay. I say no that I've got other things to do which turns into a "this is exactly what I'm talking about, you never want to do anything" speech. So I go along and let her pay partially because I wanted to see her actually spend money on me for once. We get home and she's nice as could be to me and in an excellent mood. This morning I wake up to her singing and smiling. This is the first smile I've seen in weeks if not months. Before I leave for work she follows me around the house talking about the hurricane and other news, etc. I practically tripped over her as I go to leave the house. Now hours later she's sent me at least a dozen random texts.
Is she celebrating because:
1) I'm still on the hook?
2) She's cake eating?
3) She feels better because she finally came clean about moving out soon?
4) She's a whack job?
mxdup, it's option 4
Plus, you should try to avoid mind reading.
Mxdup,
Def option 4. You are going to be able to figure out what she is thinking. Just enjoy the moment you have for now.
The moment as joejoe1 put it continues. Yesterday she was talking about us taking a vacation together next summer and how she had a strategy for working together on paying down bills. She no longer seems upset with me at all. I'm not delusional enough to think this anything more than a passing moment but it's a welcome relief.
Yup, you're on the roller coaster. Take in the scenery but know things can change the next second and so hold on to your equilibrium and sense of peace.
Mxdup,
I meant to say you are not going to be able to figure out what she is thinking. Right now you are probably confused by her actions. My wife was nice a few days and I got suckered in and pushed out again a few days later. Sandi2 and 25 gives the best advice for this area. If your wife has truly returned she will fell remorse and apologize. She will start chasing you. You still need to GAL, give her space and maybe you can give up a little bit and see how she act. If she starts rejecting then go back to DBing.
The niceties and "us" talk continues. I told my counselor about it yesterday. He basically said that these are signs that she's considering reconciliation but nothing more than that.
He also stated that I confuse my wife because I don't react the way that she thinks I will. He thinks that her P/A and some of her anger towards me is a poor attempt to see passion from me. He stated that in many ways she is behaving like a teenager.
He also stated that she might see my beta behavior as apathy and that is why she thinks that I don't love her. I thought all along that her P/A behavior was to get me angry so that she has a good reason to justify her wanting to leave.
While his theories are interesting, they are indeed educated guesses at this point.
I must be starting to detach because recently I've started to realize the role that I've played in my W's desire to walk away. I'm quite certain based on my actions that she has felt alone for quite some time. In this instance is the 180 to show my commitment to her and the M or to continue getting further away?
So the W has finally started to lighten up a bit and talked to me about how she's been feeling. She says that I smother her and that she needs her independence. She says she feels like I'm in every room of the house and she can't have time to herself. Then she goes on to say that she doesn't believe I love her. If I loved her I would know what she needs. I'm very confused on how to 180 this situation.
Do I give her more space than she needs? How do I show her I love her if I'm not around? FWIW my counselor has also told me that I am too codependent on her and that's likely driving her away. I have done more things this summer away from her than ever but apparently that's still not enough. Won't she just find someone else while I'm out GAL?
Mxdup,
My wife told me the same thing about a month ago. I took a while for me to detach and fir her to see me distancing.
My wife also told me, if I loved her I would of bent and figured out the problems I was causing. Guess what I didn't. So it's time to forgive yourself and move forward. You cant fix what you dont know atthise moments. It's time to move forward and upward.
Don't worry about AM. If You are doing what you need to do, she will notice.
So my wife said she felt smothered and she said I was following her around the house and she felt like she was a caged animal.
At that point, I said for get. I told myself. I'm going to give her all the space she needs. So starting almost 3 weeks ago, I went to meetup.com, found a meetup with some cool people. I came home after work got dressed and left.
That very weekend I went up to Austin and went ziplinning(fun as he'll by the way). The next week I was out the house on Monday and Wednesday night. The next week I was out the house Tuesday ( this was a meetup.com hike, I burned over 900 calories and met some more cool people. The leader of the meetup was a pastor and gave me great advice. GOD work in Mysterious ways) and Wednesday night. On the days we were home together, if she was upstiars I was downstairs and vice versa.
Oh I go to church by myself every Sunday, taking the boys this Sunday. The events I didnt give a discription about are church events.
Now back to my wife, by time I was gling up to Austin she thought I we going with another women. Now she's calling and texting. Calling my name in the house. A month ago none of this was happening. I told her yesterday, that I have plans for two upcoming weekend. I dont tell her what I'm doing. I just tell her I'm going out and when I will be back. In confused on not telling her my whereabouts, especially if she ask. She asked yesterday, where I'm going on one of those weekends I tokd her Dallas, but I didnt tell her why.
All can say, is to me some of her walls has came down.
Oh by the way, those two weekends, I'm going bungee jumping and skydiving.
Become mysterious, attractive and confident.
Oh hate typing this up on my phone, and I hate we cant edit.
I also wanted to tell you that I'm doing landscaping around the house. It keeps me outside while at home.
And all these GAL events makes you less available. Which makes W ask herself questions about what and where are you going and doing. Makes her curious. And you seem less needy.
A few days ago she finally (after months) told me just how I had hurt her. She claims that it was all financially. She claims that I judge all of her spending all while I buy anything I want and that she must work multiple jobs so that I don't hold anything over her head. She also mentioned that I make financial demands of her even though I know she is working as hard as she can. Am I guilty of this activity? Yes and I even verified it with my best friend. Once verified, I apologized to her. She started crying and said that it doesn't matter and that nothing will change.
Since then two things seem to be occurring: 1) The W has started to get curious about what I'm up to. Last night she made the comment that I always seem to be busy. 2) She has exchanged her anger for hurting. I've caught her crying numerous times all by herself and she has cried in front of me twice. When I asked her about the crying she just said that it's too late and she's been hurting for too long. What I would give to heal that hurt!
hmmmm...
Sounds like the financial stuff she mentioned is something you agree with. Is all of it true? I am guessing you have joint accounts? Can you both get separate accounts so that she can have some financial independence and not worry that you're checking up on her spending all the time? You can obviously stop being controlling financially and not guilting her and stuff like that, but if there are separate accounts, she might actually feel that the pressure from you can truly come off.
I feel like she just needs time and space - lots of it. And you need lots of GAL. When she's crying and you're talking to her, are you validating?
I know you want to heal all that hurt, but you can't rescue her right now.
I don't know if all of the financial stuff is true but certainly some of it is. I did not validate her when she first told me. I simply said if that's true then I'm wrong and I need to change. After I talked to my buddy, I apologized to her and validated her concerns. We have always had separate accounts and a joint. As of 3 years ago when we decided she should go back to school, I took over all the household bills. Within a week she said that she needed some spending money of her own as she felt like she was living off of me. We then tried giving her an "allowance" but she said that made her feel controlled. Within a month she started working one day a week and began keeping that as spending money. Fast forward a few years and she was working 3 jobs and saying that she had no time for school work. As of today she is working 2 jobs, paying her car payment and a personal credit card, I pay for everything else. What I didn't know until earlier this week was that the multiple jobs and paying for her own car was because she felt as if she was under my thumb. For the past year or so I have been asking/telling her to quit these jobs and focus on school as she keeps saying she is behind in school. I could never figure out why she didn't just quit. This recent puzzle piece actually makes total sense.
She keeps saying that she needs time to think and that she can't think in our house. I'm guessing she feels guilty living in the home I pay for while deciding whether or not she wants to be with me.
I really do feel guilty now that I know what's been bothering her and that I am likely the cause of this frustration for her. I've apologized and I can tell that they are only words to her. She needs to see some action/validation but I'm not sure how to do that.
Some clarifications:
Within a week she said that she needed some spending money of her own as she felt like she was living off of me. We then tried giving her an "allowance" but she said that made her feel controlled.
Why was she getting an allowance? Did she not have access to the joint account? It does seem kinda weird that a spouse has to have an allowance.
Within a month she started working one day a week and began keeping that as spending money. Fast forward a few years and she was working 3 jobs and saying that she had no time for school work. As of today she is working 2 jobs, paying her car payment and a personal credit card,
I don't get this 'spending money' part. Did she do this because she didn't access to your joint funds or was she spending money for things you didn't approve of and wanted to keep those purchases to herself?
I am trying to get an understanding of how you managed finances as a couple. How did you react to her spending money from her own account?
We really don't manage our finances as a couple. I earn 5x what she does and I pay all of the bills except for her car payment and whatever she runs up on her personal credit cards from buying clothes etc.
She had and still has access to the joint account funds (which she hasn't contributed to for a few years). She also has access to joint credit cards but refuses to use them.
For some reason she felt guilty spending out of the joint account when she wasn't contributing to it due to being enrolled full time in school. She's the one who asked for the "allowance" so she would have some spending money to blow without it affecting our bills/budget.
I have never had any reaction to her spending her own money from her own account. The way I see it is that she earned it so she can do as she pleases.
To be perfectly honest I've never understood why she doesn't want our finances combined and to just spend as she pleases. I'm not sure I understand why she works at all when I'm willing to cover the bills so she can go to school. She's very driven/independent.
It's been a month since I updated this post:
My therapist told me that the reason why I cannot rationalize anything my W says or does is because she has borderline personality disorder (BPD). Sometimes she loves me and wants to stay married and other times she wants to leave and wants me to move on. Because of the BPD, the therapist has recommended forcing her out of the house, changing the locks, seeking a restraining order and divorcing her with no contact. With all of that said, she's really done nothing wrong except for stating that she's not happy in our marriage. While I recognize that he's an expert, I'm simply not willing to follow his advice. I have no desire to force a divorce that I don't want to occur. She will be leaving very soon anyhow as she received keys to her apartment earlier this week. The therapist simply wants me to divorce and find a new mate so I can be happy in the future. What I have tried to explain to him but he doesn't get is that I will not seek a new mate due to my inability to accept divorce. I believe you choose one mate for eternity, regardless of what the law says, she will always be my wife.
mxdup,
Has your therapist actually evaluated your wife in person? BPD is a serious disorder; it's not a diagnosis that should be made from afar. I smell bovine excrement.
Evaluated? No. He has met her though. She came to the first two sessions back in June.
Why didn't he say anything about suspecting BPD back in June? It doesn't make sense.
I agree. He waited until I told him that she secured her apartment to reveal his thoughts about her BPD. I've seen the list of traits and yes she has some of them but so do lots of people without a fully diagnosed case of BPD. I honestly think he's just trying to get me to let her go and is looking for ways to push me into moving on. He has said for some time now that I will be much happier without her. When I tell him that's not what I want, he says things like "doing what you want is what landed you here".
It's official, the W is gone. Last night was the first night she slept in her apartment. While she said numerous things to me over the weekend about how this is temporary and she wants to come back, it was very obvious that's merely a backup plan. She bought all new everything for her place. This is a fresh start for her and she looking forward to it. I wish I was as excited about picking up the pieces of our former life but I'm not. She literally picked out the home I live in and all of the furniture in it. I cannot walk into any room and not be reminded of her absence.
It's been a month since she left.
She visited once (last week) and told me how much she misses the cats, the house and everything we had. After that comment I asked her if she had given any thought to working on us. Her response was an ultimatum. "If you don't stop pressuring me, I'll choose to leave you for good and I know that's not what you want." I'm not sure how she expected me to take that but I interpreted it as she has no desire to return and she is just using it as some kind of bait.
I don't know how a person knows when they are done DBing but I am there. I just don't have any fight left. I no longer want the type of person who gives ultimatums in my life. So what if my beliefs prevent me from moving on. So what if she takes half of everything and I end up working until I die. I just simply can't do this anymore.
In other news I fired my therapist after months of him not really helping me grow. In our last session, he told me that he was happy that I'm moving on and am content with my life. I'm far from content and suck at this moving on thing too. Glad he was there to sit back and watch my life unfold but I need a coach, I can talk into a voice recorder.
Mxdup,
I want to ask a question, What do you think happens if you don't ask her if she has given any thought to working on you'll?
Stay strong. It's a marathon not a sprint. I'm glad you fired a person that you felt wasn't helping you. How are your GALs going?
mxdup - good to hear from you.
Why are you asking her about working on 'us'? There is no 'us'. There is no marriage. There is only 'you' and 'her'. let her go man.
What are you doing for yourself? You say you're at the end of DBing, but I don't know if I've seen serious DBing from you. You're still pursuing her from the last interaction. You're not content because you're not dropping the rope, starting to detach, and what is the news with GAL?
You don't need to 'move on' from her but you need to 'move forward'. You don't need to decide whether you're going to D or not right now.
You're far from content as you said. How can you change that? and that doesn't include W in the picture.
I am sorry if I am being abrasive, but your posts sound defeatist and fatalistic. Take back the control over your life and 'move forward'. Her moving out should make this even better as now you she's not in your face.
You said you fired your therapist because they weren't helping you grow. It sounds like you wanted your therapist to tell you what you wanted to hear about saving the MR. Not saying that your therapist is any good or not, but you're delegating your responsibilities to someone else. The therapist and IC are important tools, but they're not going to change things around for your completely - you have to do that.
You're not done DBing because you've not even truly started it. How about starting it today.
Mxdup,
I agree with M, I don't think you have truly started to DB. Get back on the horse and saddle up.
I'm going to change my stance after reading M comment on your therapist. If you were expecting your IC to give the magic answer to fixing your M, then you are going to the IC for the wrong reasons. Your IC should be helping you fix yourself. When and If you get to recon, and marriage counselor will help you work on your M. I think you have to find a way to get healthier and happier for yourself. Then and only then will you have a chance to save your M.
Like M has said let's start DBing today.
Happy turkey day.
All of you guys are right that I have given up. I am simply tired of this whole DB/GAL charade. Over the past months I've met new people, tried new things, dressed differently, worked out, etc. The W could care less and none of this is making me happy. In fact all of it is driving me insane trying to be someone I'm not. The truth is that I'm significantly more miserable today than I was 6 months ago. I didn't just want the therapist to teach me how to get her back, I wanted him to teach me how to live without her. All he could seem to do was try to convince me that she was a POS, to divorce her and find a better replacement. He failed. I realize that she's not coming back. I also know that I will not replace her either. So what I need to know is how to enjoy life by myself again. The answer for some may be hanging out in bars becoming a pickup artist, but that is not for me. Someone mentioned that I sound defeated and I would say that is a spot on description. I'm just plain done, I have no fight left in me. She can have whatever the judge grants her. I just want to smile, laugh and enjoy life again.
mxdup - I am sorry you're feeling this way. I know this journey is hard. Heck, everyone here knows that. I am going to ask you some questions from your last post and probably some 2x4s. I am doing that because I feel like you are stuck emotionally and mentally, and I want to see how you can get yourself out of it.
All of you guys are right that I have given up. I am simply tired of this whole DB/GAL charade.
I know DB is tiring and counterintuitive and takes a lot out of the LBS, but if it's feeling like a charade to you then I have to question if you are fully embracing what DB is about and what it offers.
Over the past months I've met new people, tried new things, dressed differently, worked out, etc.
Okay! That's great. But, did you do this for YOU or did you do it so that W would notice what you were doing?
The W could care less and none of this is making me happy
Your focus is on your W noticing and caring about it. Meaning you've attached expectations about GAL and DB that are focused on her not you. That is just not going to help you because you're doing it for her.
In fact all of it is driving me insane trying to be someone I'm not.
Why are you trying to be someone you're not? The point is to find what your contributions were that led to the failure of the MR and improve on those. Again, not for her but YOU. Everything that you should be doing is to make that person in the mirror happier and better - which doesn't include anything to do with W or staying married etc.
The truth is that I'm significantly more miserable today than I was 6 months ago.
Why? Is it because you were expecting things to turn around in 6 months? Were your expectations about yourself or W?
I didn't just want the therapist to teach me how to get her back, I wanted him to teach me how to live without her. All he could seem to do was try to convince me that she was a POS, to divorce her and find a better replacement.
Did you explain to your therapist about what DB is and what you were trying to do? The best a therapist can do is give you tools to think about how to be a happier person and work on personal goals that are important to you. With my IC, I explained to her what my goals were and how I wanted to be more assertive, manage conflict, be confident etc and we worked on strategies to do that. But, then you have to go do it and through that process you learn how you can live by yourself and be actually happy. The therapist isn't going to give you some magic pill.
I realize that she's not coming back. I also know that I will not replace her either.
You don't know that on both counts. That's your grief speaking. Even if you're right, you can still live a fulfilling happy life that doesn't require validation from another person that you are a valuable and lovable human being. That has to come from within.
The answer for some may be hanging out in bars becoming a pickup artist, but that is not for me.
I don't think anyone here would advise you that you should go pick up and have flings right now. Maybe the odd perspective, but definitely in the minority.
I'm just plain done, I have no fight left in me.
It's good to be done. Perfect place. Be done with trying to fix the MR and have expectations and do things for W. Be done with that. Now start with YOU. Do things for YOU. Find contentment for YOU.
I just want to smile, laugh and enjoy life again.
So go do it! What makes you happy? What brings you joy? What makes you feel confident? What makes you feel like you're a valuable human being? Go do it and don't worry about divorce and all of that. W is gone and now it's just you. Let's find out who the happy, confident, secure, and amazing mxdup is. That's precisely what DB is about. Go be that person and only hold yourself to expectations about what you want that person to be. Personally, I want to one day look at me in the mirror and be happy to see that person. As soon as I see that consistently over time, I will then decide what my next chapter in life is going to look like.
Go get yourself!
mxdup - I am sorry you're feeling this way. I know this journey is hard. Heck, everyone here knows that. I am going to ask you some questions from your last post and probably some 2x4s. I am doing that because I feel like you are stuck emotionally and mentally, and I want to see how you can get yourself out of it.
All of you guys are right that I have given up. I am simply tired of this whole DB/GAL charade.
I know DB is tiring and counterintuitive and takes a lot out of the LBS, but if it's feeling like a charade to you then I have to question if you are fully embracing what DB is about and what it offers.
Over the past months I've met new people, tried new things, dressed differently, worked out, etc.
Okay! That's great. But, did you do this for YOU or did you do it so that W would notice what you were doing?
I certainly didn't do it for me. I did it because the book, forum and because that's what all the youtube videos say to do. Yes I secretly hoped she would notice.The W could care less and none of this is making me happy
Your focus is on your W noticing and caring about it. Meaning you've attached expectations about GAL and DB that are focused on her not you. That is just not going to help you because you're doing it for her.
In fact all of it is driving me insane trying to be someone I'm not.
Why are you trying to be someone you're not? The point is to find what your contributions were that led to the failure of the MR and improve on those. Again, not for her but YOU. Everything that you should be doing is to make that person in the mirror happier and better - which doesn't include anything to do with W or staying married etc.
The someone that I am is what put me in this situation. My best friend has said that I haven't changed in 25 years. I figured being someone I'm not must be who she wants. I honestly don't know how to make the person in the mirror happy anymore. I thought I was happy years ago when I was single, then being in a relationship with her showed me how unhappy I really had been. That realization is what caused me to propose.The truth is that I'm significantly more miserable today than I was 6 months ago.
Why? Is it because you were expecting things to turn around in 6 months? Were your expectations about yourself or W?
No I wasn't expecting things to turn around with her in 6 months but I was expecting to feel better about her not wanting to be in my life.I didn't just want the therapist to teach me how to get her back, I wanted him to teach me how to live without her. All he could seem to do was try to convince me that she was a POS, to divorce her and find a better replacement.
Did you explain to your therapist about what DB is and what you were trying to do? The best a therapist can do is give you tools to think about how to be a happier person and work on personal goals that are important to you. With my IC, I explained to her what my goals were and how I wanted to be more assertive, manage conflict, be confident etc and we worked on strategies to do that. But, then you have to go do it and through that process you learn how you can live by yourself and be actually happy. The therapist isn't going to give you some magic pill.
I explained all of that to the therapist and he just told me that I should give up on her because she has a mental disorder and unless she is willing to work on herself, I'm better off without her. Then he explains that he was married to someone just like her and how he's so much happy 25 years later and still single. That speech alone made me want to stop seeing him. If you met him you would immediately know that he's a crotchety old man who is far from happy. I realize that she's not coming back. I also know that I will not replace her either.
You don't know that on both counts. That's your grief speaking. Even if you're right, you can still live a fulfilling happy life that doesn't require validation from another person that you are a valuable and lovable human being. That has to come from within.
Perhaps it is my grief speaking but her ultimatum the other day just confirms what I already knew, she's done. The 2nd half is due to the morals I was raised by. You don't cheat on your wife even if the court says you're divorced. The answer for some may be hanging out in bars becoming a pickup artist, but that is not for me.
I don't think anyone here would advise you that you should go pick up and have flings right now. Maybe the odd perspective, but definitely in the minority.
Perhaps not here but my friends are all convinced that I just need to score with someone else. The rest of the internet pretty much sides with them as well. I'm just plain done, I have no fight left in me.
It's good to be done. Perfect place. Be done with trying to fix the MR and have expectations and do things for W. Be done with that. Now start with YOU. Do things for YOU. Find contentment for YOU.
I just want to smile, laugh and enjoy life again.
So go do it! What makes you happy? What brings you joy? What makes you feel confident? What makes you feel like you're a valuable human being? Go do it and don't worry about divorce and all of that. W is gone and now it's just you. Let's find out who the happy, confident, secure, and amazing mxdup is. That's precisely what DB is about. Go be that person and only hold yourself to expectations about what you want that person to be. Personally, I want to one day look at me in the mirror and be happy to see that person. As soon as I see that consistently over time, I will then decide what my next chapter in life is going to look like.
This is what I just can't seem to implement and what I really wanted the therapist's help with. I have no idea what makes me happy anymore. All I do know is what doesn't make me happy and I'm through with all of that. Go get yourself!
Another really rough day where I'm so sick of this new life of grieving for the old one. I just keep going through the motions and hoping it gets better. The W has not contacted me since Thanksgiving. My heart breaks further every day when I walk through the house and see so much of her in every room. A very small part of me wants her to just come pick up her stuff so I don't have to look at it anymore.
Mx,
Pack it all up, if it hurts that bad. Go to Walmart or Home Depot get some boxes and pack all of it up. Put it in a closet or garage. You have to heal by any means possible.
Update:
In early January we reconnected and even talked about her moving back in. After a few weeks she felt too much pressure so now she doesn't want to see me at all. She has recently offered to come back to the house to pick up her remaining items and I told her that she can do whatever she likes, she will anyhow. She doesn't seem to understand why I'm so upset. When I explained that I will never be able to retire after paying the lawyers and that I will never have a mate because I don't believe in divorce, she says that I'm being silly. Then she offered to help me find a new girl because I'm such a great guy. That was the last straw. So I'll be broke, alone and miserable. So what
Mxdup, I'm sorry you're going through a really rough patch.
Let her get the rest of her things. It'll help you to not have to look at them.
Things may seem gloomy now, but life on the other side may be better than you think. There's so much out there in the world to do, see, and experience.
Hang in there.
Update:
In early January we reconnected and even talked about her moving back in. After a few weeks she felt too much pressure so now she doesn't want to see me at all. She has recently offered to come back to the house to pick up her remaining items and I told her that she can do whatever she likes, she will anyhow. She doesn't seem to understand why I'm so upset. When I explained that I will never be able to retire after paying the lawyers and that I will never have a mate because I don't believe in divorce, she says that I'm being silly. Then she offered to help me find a new girl because I'm such a great guy. That was the last straw. So I'll be broke, alone and miserable. So what
You are focusing on the wrong things. We all get to low points through this, I get it. But you need to be 180ing. You need to not react so strongly to what she says and does. The "I'll help you get a new girl" thing is her guilt talking. I would advise the LRT. Go dark. Don't engage her. Ignore her texts and VMs. Don't answer her calls. If she shows up where you live, be kind, attentive, and validating, but aloof and detached.
It is hard work, but it will payoff in 1 of 2 ways: getting her to see she is losing you and wanting to come back, or helping you move on healthily.