Divorcebusting.com
Posted By: Kylo New to the journey and thank you. - 07/28/17 01:31 PM
First off, thanks to everyone who puts in time here. I've been lurking and have found it quite helpful. I'm hoping my story will help others as well as myself...

I have a MLC wife who fits all of the markers. Its funny because before I got around to MLC I looked at Narcissism, then BPD, and she had some strong hits there, but not a majority of the traits; but with MLC, BOOM!, it was all there.

She dropped the bomb in May of this year, with almost no warning. I told her later: If you measured the speed of this divorce in the number of words discussing it, this would be the fastest divorce in history!

We met for lunch because I needed a lunch partner that day. She had just come from the last college she attended to discuss with them what she would need to finish her degree, (she may have close to 200 credit hours from attending 5 different schools, but no degree. She kept changing her major. I'm still paying on her student loans.) For the previous few weeks we had barely spoken. I knew something was up. At this lunch I told her I really wanted to know what was going on, and she reluctantly told me that she thought she wanted a divorce. She wouldn't really divulge much more. My pride, anger, and my own concerns kept me from really pushing much further. Looking back after reading Divorce Remedy, this may have been a good thing. There really was no pursuit on my part. I never cried. (Part of me wonders if she should at least know that I care, because there wasn't much of a "fight for this" moment, although I have told her that I want to stay married and this would be new relationship).

In the following few conversations we had, she would eventually say things like: "I don't think I can love you like that." "Our marriage was terrible" "I've been faking it for so long" "You deserve better" "We can be great friends" etc...

We did go to two "Discernment" counseling sessions at very high cost, and after the second session, she said she was pretty sure she wanted the divorce, so that was that. We've probably had 3 discussions about it so far, but they have mostly been about the logistics of the divorce That's it for the first post, I'll be adding to it as sort of an electronic history. I think details matter, but I also know most people don't like details, so we'll see how well I balance!
Posted By: Cadet Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 07/28/17 01:49 PM
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Posted By: RR17 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 07/28/17 03:53 PM
Dig in buddy and realize that you may or may not know what it is. Post a lot and read a lot and know you are not alone.
Read Sandi's rules
Seems counterintuitive but it will help you.

Prays
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/05/17 03:13 PM
Thanks for the replies. I've read the book and doing a lot of research, which is why there isn't much to this thread. I've been doing really well with Sandi's rules. It seems between my pride and getting turned onto the Divorce Remedy book early, there wasn't much to any chasing, crying, etc...
It seems pretty clear to me she is on the BPD spectrum, but might fall short of clinical diagnosis. Her childhood certainly supports it. My dad used to say it was amazing that my wife turned out so normal, well...... It seems to me like BPD is almost a guarantee of MLC.

I read the traits and "examples" of BPD and some of them just make me say "wow"! My interest in this research has distracted me, so I'm not dealing with too much pain. It is not often you find a topic you are interested in that you knew nothing about. I am amazed at how much people are affected by their childhoods. Hers:

-Her parents divorced. Dad moves away. At some point her brother goes and lives with dad.

-Mom remarries and new guy brings two sons along. They treat her like their sister, and the new guy treats her like a daughter, even offering adoption. Meanwhile, the possible alcoholic, definitely narcissistic mother fights with the new man violently. Eventually this new family leaves in the middle of the night, never to be heard from again.

-Mom and brother are clinically crazy. And many other things.

Really, how could my wife NOT have issues. I do feel a little sorry for her, but I'm starting to wonder if getting back on track is even possible? Even if she comes back we have BPD to work through which requires commitment, effort, time, all things she does not want to give.

I feel the worst for my boys. I love 'em a ton, they're sweet, fun and completely innocent. I started to feel that I let them down making this poor choice of a mom, (she's actually a good mom, BUT SHE WANTS A DIVORCE, so a failure), but I realized there was no way to really tell before the marriage. I never believed in the whole rough childhood affecting people as adults. I thought it was BS. I wish I knew then what I know now. Her history would have given me serious pause.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/06/17 11:35 AM
So today we're at lunch at a restaurant with my family. My brother asks what the special is. This almost always reminds me of the scene in Dumb and Dumber, where Jim Carrey asks what the soup du jour is. And the waitress replies "The soup of the day", and Jim Carrey says: "Sounds great. I'll have that." So I repeat the line. My wide turns to my sister-in-law and groans about the "same old jokes", like she is really mad about it! I'm smiling as I type it, it's so funny and so textbook MLC. On the flipside, it just makes me want to say GTFO. Funny and maddening at the same time, and pathetic.

She had said she needed a job that made at least $50,000 to start out on her own, (with no college degree). Well I find one for her, and she is wishy-washy about it. She says she wants more.

She already knows how to do this job. It has full benefits, normal hours, puts her back in the workforce, she could stay here and build up a little war chest, she could get out of the house soon, which as of a couple weeks ago, is what she really wanted. It seems so BPD, just wallowing in the misery.

Now that I have stopped moving the divorce ball forward, nothing is happening. I wonder how long it will be until she decides to put a little effort into getting out of this "terrible marriage that has been terrible for years" and that she was "faking it for so long".

I put some time in and was able to find the MLC, and then find the BPD (I actually started with searching for "why can't my wife admit when she is wrong, and didn't quite find a good match. It was a post on this site that sent me to the getting better site that crystalized it; and no I don't take what Shari says as gospel.) I can only imagine how hard it would be, how lost I would feel if I hadn't. I probably would have pestered her at least some, to find out what was going wrong.
Posted By: Cadet Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/06/17 11:17 PM
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Posted By: Cristy Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/07/17 05:34 AM
Hello Kylo,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

Is you wife seeking help for her issues? Has she been officially diagnosed?

Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/07/17 04:09 PM
Thanks, Cristy. I don't know if there has been a diagnosis of anything. We went to two discernment counseling sessions, and the only purpose to those is to determine if you want to stay in the marriage or not. She decided not. She has been seeing a counselor every week. I have no idea what is going on because she doesn't tell me and I don't ask.

I will say she saw this counselor before discernment counseling, and I asked her what he said. She said "he thinks we should divorce" Wow! What a counselor! I got a kick out of that. She went to see this counselor a few years ago to figure out how to deal with her mother (extremely self-centered, or at least that's what the wife's stories relate. My wife would always come home with a "Can you believe she said this!" story. And yes, I can believe it. It was the same thing every time. I didn't know why she let it bother her so much when it was so predictable, but she would act like it was a shocker every time), and her brother (manic depressive, has been admitted to psych hospital before and has done some messed up stuff when he gets upset).
So she
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/07/17 04:16 PM
... continued

So she goes to see this counselor, and I'm thinking he will give her ideas on how to repair the relationships as best as possible, since they were family and that means something. I knew that her mom would ask her to call or visit more often and she never would. So he gives here advice on how to limit contact with them, and set boundaries. I can see that, but wouldn't you try a few things first? OK, maybe not, BUT WITH A MARRIAGE? "You should get a divorce" did he forget there were two kids involved? I said maybe we should see the guy. She said that the counselor said it was a bad idea. I called him and he left a message that he would be willing to see me... Anyway, I want to keep reading and learning before I hit counseling. I want to know what to ask.
Posted By: Cadet Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/07/17 11:45 PM
Originally Posted By: Kylo
BUT WITH A MARRIAGE? "You should get a divorce" did he forget there were two kids involved?

Unfortunately not all counselors are marriage friendly.

I found them to be a waste of time and money.

You will get better advice here and your time will be better spent.

DB101 = DO what works - 180 what does not.
Posted By: Treasur Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/07/17 11:50 PM
I think therapy covers a lot of perspectives. Some will do 'mirroring' where they see their role as focusing on helping the individual be clear about what they currently want rather than challenging their perspective.

And to be fair, people don't always tell their therapists the truth or tell the truth about what their therapists say! I think one of the biggest risks of any kind of IC is that it encourages you to think about you primarily. Sometimes that can be really helpful, but sometimes it can feed an already self-centred focus perhaps.
Posted By: TxHubby Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/08/17 01:58 AM
She sounds like a gem. I see that you've bent over backwards for this marriage but let me ask you...what has her contribution been? Take off your love blinders and answer that as honestly as you can.
Posted By: Cristy Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/08/17 03:36 AM
Originally Posted By: Cadet
Originally Posted By: Kylo
BUT WITH A MARRIAGE? "You should get a divorce" did he forget there were two kids involved?

Unfortunately not all counselors are marriage friendly.

I found them to be a waste of time and money.

You will get better advice here and your time will be better spent.

DB101 = DO what works - 180 what does not.


Hello Kylo,

Cadet is right. Not all counselors are marriage friendly, especially when they have heard only one side of the equation.

Michele has an excellent video titled "When Couples Therapy is a Bad Idea" Please email me directly and I will send you the link.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/08/17 03:42 AM
Hello Kylo and welcome to the forums! I've read all your posts and my question to you is what is your goal? Are you trying to save your M? I'm confused, it sounds like you think your W is crazy and that you wish you hadn't married her in the first place. Assuming that is true then I'm just wondering what your focus is. I hope that doesn't sound negative spin, I mean it as a genuine question as it will affect our advice to you.

Originally Posted By: Kylo
She dropped the bomb in May of this year, with almost no warning.


That's what it usually seems like to the LBS, but she may have been trying to get your attention for months or even years. It probably looked like nagging to you, but it was a cry for help. Then she gave up and started planning her escape.

Quote:
In the following few conversations we had, she would eventually say things like: "I don't think I can love you like that." "Our marriage was terrible" "I've been faking it for so long" "You deserve better" "We can be great friends" etc...


All typical WAS script.

Quote:
I let them down making this poor choice of a mom, (she's actually a good mom, BUT SHE WANTS A DIVORCE, so a failure)


Marriages rarely fail because one person was perfect and the other was a hot mess. It's usually because both spouses quit trying. It happens, after years and years of M it's hard to keep things new and exciting. It all just kind of goes on autopilot. So try to look beyond your W's issues and see if there's not something you need to work on yourself. That's a large part of DB'ing is making ourselves the best possible "me" that we can be.

Quote:
She said "he thinks we should divorce" Wow! What a counselor! I got a kick out of that.


Most IC's and MC's are little more than divorce facilitators. Michele obviously isn't, and she's putting together a network of coaches and counselors that are marriage friendly. Hopefully they will change the landscape eventually!
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/09/17 12:00 PM
Originally Posted By: TxHubby
She sounds like a gem. I see that you've bent over backwards for this marriage but let me ask you...what has her contribution been? Take off your love blinders and answer that as honestly as you can.


There were times when she was loving and caring. The timeline gets fuzzy, but this probably lasted up until the first child. She had been thoughtful in the past, and she has done a good job with the kids. House upkeep was, and is poor. She doesn't cook (although I've told her over and over, it isn't worth the time). She had always been pretty good when we needed to pitch in for the family, (my family, hers is non-existent).

My family and I have done a lot to help her.
-Before we dated, I started bringing her out with my friends because she was hanging out with the "wrong crowd" and wanted to get away from that scene. This became dating a few months later.
-When we got married, I paid for the bulk of the wedding because her parents would only make limited contributions, (I contributed maybe $20k on a $50k salary at the time?)
-I found out she had credit card debt after we were married and I paid that off.
-I'm still paying her student loans. (Her dad retired at 50, he has the money.)
-We moved out of the house I had because it had been my "bachelor pad", although it was a nice place and had plenty of room.
-When our kids were young and she couldn't handle it (although I was very involved and worked short hours) my father sent my sis over 3 days a week instead of having her go to work, to give her a break.
-My family took her in as one of our own.
She would always say I didn't care about her or like her, but I can honestly say that what she thought entered into every decision I made.
So if you wanted to measure "who did what" the scale would tip to my side, but I really didn't look at things through this lens until I started getting attacked, and still don't really unless it comes down to who gets what in the divorce. To her credit, at this point she says she is leaving some things to me (my interest in the family business, that has value on paper, but no way to access it) that she could claim that would seriously affect me and the rest of my family.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/09/17 12:58 PM
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
Hello Kylo and welcome to the forums! I've read all your posts and my question to you is what is your goal? Are you trying to save your M? I'm confused, it sounds like you think your W is crazy and that you wish you hadn't married her in the first place. Assuming that is true then I'm just wondering what your focus is. I hope that doesn't sound negative spin, I mean it as a genuine question as it will affect our advice to you.

[quote=Kylo]She dropped the bomb in May of this year, with almost no warning.


That's what it usually seems like to the LBS, but she may have been trying to get your attention for months or even years. It probably looked like nagging to you, but it was a cry for help. Then she gave up and started planning her escape.

Quote:
I let them down making this poor choice of a mom, (she's actually a good mom, BUT SHE WANTS A DIVORCE, so a failure)


Marriages rarely fail because one person was perfect and the other was a hot mess. It's usually because both spouses quit trying. It happens, after years and years of M it's hard to keep things new and exciting. It all just kind of goes on autopilot. So try to look beyond your W's issues and see if there's not something you need to work on yourself. That's a large part of DB'ing is making ourselves the best possible "me" that we can be.

I made a commitment and I plan to keep it. I'm a Christian and I'm still struggling with this divorce thing, but the way I read it, there pretty much is no divorce for me unless she leaves me and hooks up with another man. I would like for her to come out the other end on MLC, then by some miracle agree to work on her BPD, (which seems like the AIDS of personality disorders. They can't admit they're wrong because they can't handle the guilt; yet going to get help for BPD is admitting you are wrong). I like our shared history and I think our "getting along" personalities are similar and compatible. I also believe working it out is best for our kids.

This winter we were going through some real problems and my resentment towards her was so strong. I thought to myself "I am fully within my rights to get a divorce." But I made a commitment. I prayed and prayed, and eventually I changed and the bulk of my resentment went away, and I was able to continue.

As for autopilot. I have gown tremendously during this marriage, especially lately. I have always tried to get better. I admit that often times my efforts were pathetic, but I left every argument thinking about what I could do to get better. But looking back, it was like Lucy and the football from peanuts. She would tell me why problem A was my fault. I would work on changing it, and she wouldn't notice (admittedly, only 20% of my efforts were passable). Every argument was my fault. Now I know it had to be, in order for her to avoid the guilt. That's why she would always say: "Why are you trying to make me feel guilty" I wasn't, I was just trying to make my point.

I'm not very thoughtful. I have been blunt. I said some mean blunt things early in the relationship. The lack of sex made me angry. I wasn't a blameless angel, but I would say I was at least average or better. My dadding is All-Star (many dads seem to be now). I loathe people talking about what they deserve, but in a cosmic scales of justice sense, I don't deserve divorce.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/09/17 01:00 PM
Kylo....your W and mine sound very similar. Mine comes from a broken family who does not have a relationship with her mom and takes whatever she can get from her father. She has battled depresion most of her life and what she valued in me was safety, stability and a family structure. I never thought she would do what she did but it happened to me as well. Out of blue, with no clue it was coming. She is a very passionate person which is why I love her so much however it appears she is not able to overcome her disfunctional childhood/up-bringing. I have read that if childhood issues are not addressed they will re-surface later on in life. When I think back to our relationship I feel that I did quite a bit around the house and if you ask our friends I carried the majority of the load.

With that said I don't have much to offer other than realize your own mistakes in the relationship and understand it is more about her than you. I am not sure that my situation will have a positive ending from a reconciliation standpoint however I do know that I have grown as a person and know that my W will have to make some changes in her life before I take her back.

I have also read that most nice guys look for wives that they consider a project and that they can fix. I know that in my next relationships I will look for something different as this forum has made me more confident with who i am and what I have to offer.

The pain is real however if you are really honest with your relationship you will probably realize you sacrificed more of yourself than you should.

I wish you the best of luck and most of all try to get the confidence back!
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/09/17 01:32 PM
The post above didn't quite "quote" everything that was a quote.

Why am I posting? A bit of catharsis, journaling, fact finding, and a hope that by the end my story will help someone.

I'm probably focusing on the "crazy" aspects right now because I just learned about BPD in the last few weeks and it has put so much of what she did in focus. I was at a musical last night and another past event that didn't make much sense became clear through the lens of BPD.

What I'm trying to figure out are my odds of success. I feel like if it was just MLC, I'd be at 50% or so. Throwing BPD into the mix I'm assuming drops the odds to 25% or less. I'm going to try to find some examples. If anyone knows anything about this please chime in.

I feel like if I don't move the D along, neither will she (she hasn't so far) If I'm pretty much doomed, I would rather get this over with.
Posted By: chanove Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/09/17 01:39 PM
Kylo,
I am sorry to hear what you are going through.

"It seems to me like BPD is almost a guarantee of MLC."
I can completely relate as my wife is diagnosed. I think that is one of the reasons I missed some things as I thought it was a symptom of BPD. However, after reading this site I'm not sure anymore.

"I called him and he left a message that he would be willing to see me..."
Not a good idea. My wife has seen various counselors throughout the years. She would often be more upset after seeing them. It's hard to tell what happened in the session as you are only getting her interpretation. Furthermore, many counselors may see it as a conflict of interest if they already had an established relationship.

I am a complete newbie, so I have no sound advice other than to suggest to you (as a BPD spouse for many years) a diagnosis does no good for you at this point.

I wish you well on your journey.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/10/17 04:17 PM
Originally Posted By: chanove
Kylo,
I am sorry to hear what you are going through.

"It seems to me like BPD is almost a guarantee of MLC."
I can completely relate as my wife is diagnosed. I think that is one of the reasons I missed some things as I thought it was a symptom of BPD. However, after reading this site I'm not sure anymore.

"I called him and he left a message that he would be willing to see me..."
Not a good idea. My wife has seen various counselors throughout the years. She would often be more upset after seeing them. It's hard to tell what happened in the session as you are only getting her interpretation. Furthermore, many counselors may see it as a conflict of interest if they already had an established relationship.

I am a complete newbie, so I have no sound advice other than to suggest to you (as a BPD spouse for many years) a diagnosis does no good for you at this point.

I wish you well on your journey.


I think the stat was 70% of BPD victims have another issue?

As for calling the counselor, originally we were both going to go, but that didn't happen. Later, when I called him I just wanted him to know there was a husband and two kids that are affected by his "ditch everyone else" advice. It was just a thought in my head that I wasn't going to act on, but I mentioned it to a counselor (long story, I thought I was calling on new business, but it was a return call from a counselor, so we had a session, I suppose. I guess they don't like to identify themselves on voicemail?) and she said it was a good idea. Anyway, I never talked to the guy.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/10/17 04:27 PM
She's got her crazy brother coming in town, (he makes anyone on here look like sanity incarnate) and staying with her mother. I told her to count me out of the festivities. She was worried there would be questions, since he doesn't know the sitch yet; since he can't be trusted to keep quiet in front of my boys who know nothing. I told her to just tell him afterwards. The only thing I'm second guessing is the safety of my boys since her brother got angry with my eldest last time he was in town; which is why he isn't staying with us.
Usually she comes away from her family appreciating me more, which will be a funny dynamic considering the current state of our relationship. I don't have my hopes up or anything, but if I was eating carbs, I'd get out the popcorn!
On a side notewe got along well today, which put my resentment at bay.Man am I attracted to her
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/13/17 10:28 AM
I've had most of the weekend to myself, since the wife's brother is in town. She has taken the kids along since he has a little girl around their age. This is the second weekend I've had to myself and I have to say it is pretty nice being alone, so at least I don't have to worry about every other week being hard to deal with.

I thought about going along to these things for the kids' sake, but I can't tell if they think anything is up because of it. From a DB point of view I'm not sure if it was the right call, oh well.

After in-laws leave and school starts next week things could pick-up on D proceedings, we'll see.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/13/17 10:50 AM
We both went to church today (I don't make it that much anymore and when I do, she often stays home) since it was the Sunday that the 3rd graders get their Bibles. We drove separately since she was meeting her bro afterwards (and because she is usually late).

The sermon was seemingly written for me. It was about courage. She used the analogy of learning to swim as a child. When we go to the deep end, it is scary, but what we learned in the shallow end, works in the deep end. We're in the shallow end when everything goes well. When things go poorly, we are thrown in the deep end; but God is with us. What we learned in the shallow end will see us through. I think the wife may have reacted, who knows. She never has paid much attention, and didn't discuss Theology much with me. I think I got her to put her toe in, but since it was an area I studied and was interested in, she had to not be interested in it.

Since I've been a kid up until a year or two ago, I would always hear the preacher talk about praying for our pain and suffering. I would always think in my head "Not me. Is everyone always in such pain?" I guess it is my turn now, or I should say all our turns.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/13/17 11:02 AM
I was getting impatient, so I went back and re-read parts of the DR book. I seem to be on the right track since she is pretty much out the door.

Some resentment built up that I think she could sense. She's spent me to the brink. No big purchases, but death by 1,000 cuts. (although she did spend $300 on a weekend with her equally disturbed friend. When I told her we never spent $300 on a date she said "Isn't it sad." What a brat.) It bothers me that she's still living here enjoying the benefits of marriage. She needs to get a job.

The more I read about BPD, (some take it as stunted emotional development), the more I see her as a teenager. She reasons like my niece, and the way I did at that age. Why am I doing this again?

It reminds me of the meme before there were memes: there was a picture of a jaw-dropping woman in a bikini, and the caption said, "Somewhere is a guy who's sick of her sh!t"
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/14/17 12:43 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo

Some resentment built up that I think she could sense. She's spent me to the brink. No big purchases, but death by 1,000 cuts.


Boy does that sound klaxons in my head. My XW and I always maintained separate CC's and bank accounts. Early in our M she racked up 15k in CC debt without ever saying a word. It was the same thing as your W, no big purchases but a whole lot of little ones that she kept thinking she would pay off the next month. When she finally disclosed it, we came up with a way to pay it off (slowly) and she offered to give me all her CC's but I said no, her word that she wouldn't let it happen again was good enough for me and I trusted her. Not too long before BD she disclosed to me that she had accumulated more CC debt (over 10+ years!!!!) and had been afraid to tell me. This time it was a LOT more, I can't remember the exact amount but it was 80k or something like that. She didn't think it was a problem because she had just gotten an inheritance that was enough to pay it off! The way I looked at it, that inheritance could have paid our kids' college educations and set us up for a nice start on retirement, so I wasn't "happy" about it like she seemed to be. I never yelled at her or anything, stayed calm but I did express my disappointment. We cut up a bunch of her cards (I've only ever had one CC, she had a dozen) and called and reduced the spending limit on the two that she kept. That was a year or two before BD. I'm sure that was a big contributing factor to BD, one of the few things she told me after BD was she felt like she always had to walk on eggshells around me and I am 100% sure that feeling could only have been because of the debt she was keeping hidden. So incredibly, she harbored all this resentment over something that wasn't even my fault and that I didn't know a thing about.

Definitely don't discount how big a contributing factor something like that is towards BD. You may have known nothing about it, but she may be harboring a lot of resentment over it anyway.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/14/17 03:43 PM
Wow, that is rough! You are right though. The tightness of the money has definitely played a role in her wanting out. She believes and portrays herself as not a "gold digger" type, but she has said how being broke [censored]. It (me) also stopped her in her tracks for her "next thing": a house with a better yard. (I've read the BPD always have a project or a "next thing"). I called her on it before I knew anything about BPD, and she finally admitted it, but couched it as something "all normal people do."

We've had influxes of money, but then spending increases and they disappear in no time. I played a role in this, but now I've figured it out.

I've told her over and over the key to happiness is being thankful for what you have, and she can't even agree to that. In the beginning, when she liked me, she definitely would have agreed.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/14/17 03:55 PM
Today was more difficult than most. We had Open House at the kids' school. I was so attracted to her, again. Which makes the rejection all the more difficult. We get to the school and she's talking to everyone: teachers, parents, kids, principal, secretary. Kids are giving her hugs. This would be wonderful if she were my wife, it's more difficult when this is the woman who is ditching you. Plus, it makes it less likely she stops this to get a job, which would be helpful any route this relationship takes.

I don't really know the people here. I'm introverted; but when I do try to put some effort into conversation I can tell they don't want to listen. This just puts me in a worse mood since I always make it a point that when people talk to me they are heard. whatever, I just need to work on staying happy around her. Shouldn't be too hard since I am everywhere else.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/14/17 04:08 PM
So being newish to all this, most of the analysis of traits has been done on past events, but last night I experienced it real time.

She ordered 50 eclipse glasses for school off of Amazon. Well Amazon declared they couldn't be sure of the glasses' safety and refunded the money. In turn, she now has to tell the school that we can't use these glasses anymore. She tells me the story and I agree with her the whole way (I probably would have done the same thing). At the end I give her a sarcastic "Way to go" as a joke. She gets upset and tells me I always try and make her feel guilty when she screws up.

I tell her I was just joking.

She says it isn't funny.

I tell her I thought it was funny (there's a part of me that wants to tell her to take a hike).

About 5 minutes later I come back in and tell her: "I meant to say I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings." Which is true, that wasn't my purpose. I think she liked the apology.

It feels a bit surreal when you know why she's doing what she is doing, but you can't tell her. I know I would make mistakes, but I feel like I could help. Patience, patience, patience.
Posted By: Treasur Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/14/17 05:11 PM
Kylo, I'm sorry you're here and you're right about patience. And death by a thousand cuts.

You said (and you're a funny guy) "I told her later: If you measured the speed of this divorce in the number of words discussing it, this would be the fastest divorce in history!" If it helps, I can name that tune in five. 'Divorce is the only option' is all I got with a H who ran away and refused to speak.

A couple of similarities struck me. Like you, married in 2003, some FOO stuff and being 'helped'.

I don't know if your wife is BPD/MLC/WAS...in a way right now it doesn't matter, just her actions and yours. No one can give you a percentage, timescale, game plan or outcome. Right now, you just know that this is where you are and it's going to be a hard ride. Sorry.

Please start training your mind around the Serenity prayer because focusing on what is in your control will help. Get some support for yourself to talk, pastor or IC, rather than stew as an introvert normally would. Try to accept that the M you had is over...as inconceivable as it is...and you are fighting for two things; to protect you and your boys, and to have the chance to make a new M on the other side of the storm. If that is what you want.

Loving detachment will save your life and sanity. It's like finding a human version of Grace, but not easy to do. DB will help you start to build a plan for you, but with your W, you can only hope for the best and prepare for the worst.

Like your W, my H has a pattern of 'waiting to be rescued' but I think it produces resentment about being controlled too, real anger. If it is a pattern for you all, expect her to play both extremes of that in this crisis and you to fall in to your part of that pattern too. You might find it helpful to muse on that now.

Also, the money is a big flag. Your W may self-medicate with 'stuff' and you should be taking steps right now to protect you and your boys financially. Many spouses here - MLC or WAS - go through thousands, steal and lie, like a child taking money from your wallet. They seem to have a broken link between cause and effect, and a huge sense of entitlement and 'well, I want it so I took it.'

Practical stuff...what is the status quo right now? What is your W doing or saying she's planning to do? Is there an A? Is she seeing an IC? Does she have her own job and bank account?

You can't stop this rollercoaster. It isn't your fault, Kylo, but you can't stop it. Only choose how you respond and how you take shelter. Wiser heads than me will give you advice too if you keep posting, but my two cents is that God is giving you a challenge to live the Serenity prayer for real now and detachment is key. But hard, really hard and painful to do.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 04:08 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo
At the end I give her a sarcastic "Way to go" as a joke. She gets upset and tells me I always try and make her feel guilty when she screws up.


Take it from someone who is a reformed master-of-sarcasm, save the sarcasm for your buddies. It has no place in your romantic relationships.

Quote:
I tell her I was just joking.


A better response would have been "you are right, I was trying to be funny but that was insensitive. I'm sorry."

Quote:
She says it isn't funny.


And it wasn't to her, which should have been all you needed to know.

Quote:
I tell her I thought it was funny (there's a part of me that wants to tell her to take a hike).


Oh boy. What you need to understand is that REGARDLESS of your INTENTIONS, you offended her. She felt offended. You need to seek to understand and acknowledge her feelings. That's what the "validation" thing is we talk about so much here.

Quote:
About 5 minutes later I come back in and tell her: "I meant to say I'm sorry. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings."


Better late than never!
Posted By: doodler Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 05:34 AM
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
...a reformed master-of-sarcasm...


That's an oxymoron, right? I didn't think sarcasmic masters could ever truly reform because that statement is probably sarcastic. It's a never-ending cycle you can never escape. AnotherStander, I'm calling you out. You're not reformed, you're just dormant for the time being. You don't have me fooled.
Posted By: EastTN Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 05:44 AM
Doodler, you've got him all wrong.

Quote:
Reform (verb) - subject to a catalytic process in which straight-chain molecules are converted to branched forms for use in gasoline.


Obviously, AS was stating that he is such a master of sarcasm, that simply calling his sense of sarcasm "refined" wasn't a strong enough statement. While mere mortals such as you and I can play at sarcasm, AS has himself undergone a process, which has reformed his entire sense of humor to the point that the rest of us can barely hope to keep up.

smile
Posted By: doodler Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 05:47 AM
EastTN,

I'm crying tears of joy and I'm humbled beyond words.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 06:39 AM
Originally Posted By: doodler
Originally Posted By: AnotherStander
...a reformed master-of-sarcasm...


That's an oxymoron, right? I didn't think sarcasmic masters could ever truly reform because that statement is probably sarcastic. It's a never-ending cycle you can never escape. AnotherStander, I'm calling you out. You're not reformed, you're just dormant for the time being. You don't have me fooled.



Damn you guys, you know me better than my own blowup sex doll! Oh if she could talk, mmmmm. But I digress. What were we talking about?

Originally Posted By: EastTN


Quote:
Reform (verb) - subject to a catalytic process in which straight-chain molecules are converted to branched forms for use in gasoline.


Obviously, AS was stating that he is such a master of sarcasm, that simply calling his sense of sarcasm "refined" wasn't a strong enough statement. While mere mortals such as you and I can play at sarcasm, AS has himself undergone a process, which has reformed his entire sense of humor to the point that the rest of us can barely hope to keep up.


I like that. Especially the "refined" part, it lends me an air of dignity and respect that I absolutely do not deserve or resemble. Thank you, I'm copy/ pasting that now into my resume'!
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 03:26 PM
Treasur. OK, you win on the fastest divorce in history as measured by the words spoken about it.

Thanks for the advice. I like the idea of a new relationship. In one of the 2 discussions we had after she stated her intentions, I mentioned this to her, and she seemed to like the idea, but no movement of course.

I'm going to approach separating the money again. When I approached her about a budget, she flipped out and said I better "lawyer up". Since I'm trying to keep this to mediation at most, I backed off. Later she acted like she didn't say it, then started moping about the budget.

For the practical stuff: She planned on finishing her degree and enrolled in a summer school course. It was too much work, so she dropped it. A quick end to a grand plan. I think she said something about not going back to school at all anymore.

I think she wants a job, but hasn't started to look. Now that school has started, hopefully that will change. If she gets a job that pays enough she can move out. I found one for her, but she wasn't ready for it. She used to claim she needed a degree for a good job, now she is getting picky, but doesn't have a degree. She has volunteered at school for two positions that take up a ton of time that will become an excuse to not get a job. She doesn't think she can just leave her positions (although people leave them for jobs all the time) probably because of guilt. She now claims these positions are more important than what happens in our house. I'm pretty sure this outlandish claim was made so she can be "right" and avoid guilt. (when I lay this out in black and white, I wonder what the hell I'm doing?)

As for an affair, I doubt it, but I'm not an idiot. Previously, she said "when would I have time?" which seems true. She also made a comment about being without a guy for awhile (she has had a boyfriend of some sort since 7th grade. One of them for 7 years through HS and college). However she does go out a decent amount.

She is seeing a counselor 1xweek, the one who supposedly told her to get a divorce. I have no idea what he is telling her, or what she is telling him.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 03:34 PM
Stander, I knew it was a mistake when I said it, but I just didn't care. I'm getting so fed up with her stuff, I just let it fly. In my defense, we never talk, so when anything other than talking about what the kids did comes up, I'm caught off guard.

I think I'm going to have a hard time sticking it out. Now that the "high" of figuring out what happened is wearing off, I'm having a hard time putting up with her. I am not a fan of being lead by your emotions vs. being lead by your head. Her mental weakness is really f'ing over this family.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/15/17 03:44 PM
New question/observation: I don't think I miss her. I think I don't like the rejection. She does not talk to me. She does not look at me. It really is amazing. Of all the places we/she could have used some discipline, this is where it shows up.

Earlier I kept thinking: "I just want her to be nice to me", and when she was I was happy. Right before the BD, unbeknownst to me, she tried really hard to be nice and happy as a way to feel better. For those two weeks I was on top of the world. I felt like my life was perfect.

I'm sure this says something about my issues. Maybe I'm at the point where I should pass the time with a counselor.
Posted By: RR17 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/16/17 06:35 AM
Kylo it is common and natural for LBS to suspect MLC.

As I read through your thread she sounds like every other WAW/WW. They are all crazy, selfish strangers looking to get offended. Anger fuels their dissension.

They run hot and cold, IMO, the hot is to check your temp and the cold is to fuel dissension.

I wouldn't rule out an A unless you are just sure. If this is the case you will need to take a stronger hand.

Playing along is exhausting and very hard to maintain.

Given her history, I would take a look at what attracted you to her in the first place. For your own growth. I too am a Fixer. It's not healthy and doesn't work in the long run. Something to think about.

Hang in there.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/16/17 04:47 PM
I reread the parts on WW and MLC just to be sure I'm not shooting from the hip. The MLC just rings true. She checks all the boxes. I think there is a WW aspect to it since we weren't getting along well for an appreciable amount of time and from her point of view I was the cause of the problems.

She runs ice cold to cold. We rarely talk, and when we do it's about kids or family business. I read other people's stories here and they're having interactions and conversations that we just don't have.

As for an A, it doesn't really change the DB approach. In the past I thought an A might not bother me so much. I envisioned her being out one night drunk and messing around a little and that's it. At this point though, I know an A would likely be much more than that. I can't really tell how much it would bother me.

I know she didn't have anything to do with her grandparent's suicide, which probably screwed up her narcissistic mother, which resulted in two divorces, which led to her BPD, which rolled out a red carpet for her MLC, which puts her in a prime spot for an A. But at some point you have to be responsible for your actions. I could lay out events that would make someone say: "No wonder he had an affair" (not on par with her sad experiences of course), but I didn't do it.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/16/17 04:59 PM
I've read a little about the nice guy/fixer mentality. My other long-term girlfriend had fixer aspects and ended up in a crazy mess. As for what attracted me to both of them, I think this played a role. There were many other reasons too, or maybe I should say two.
They had good hearts and treated my incredibly, (of course the W changed). Beautiful. They were both laid back, no bs (I'm repulsed by fake), and very much able to just come along and party with the rest of us. Now that I have read more about BPD, they may have been so great in the beginning as part of the pulling me in stage.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/17/17 02:53 PM
Pretty much the only time we talk, is when it is about the kids, and during these talks she seems normal. It's like she can't hate me when the kids are involved.

Before BD, we may not have gotten along very well, but when the kids were involved we had fun. It was an uplifting experience for me. an experience that felt right and good.

Yesterday was the first day of school, so in the excitement and discussion about the kids it is like she forgot to hate me. Later I went to talk to her about the end of her car lease and she was back to being short with me and trying to end the convo. It's amazing to observe.

I feel like I've been able to purge my resentment about the cake-eating aspect of all this and get back on track.

I also realized today it had been a long time since she seemed to enjoy anything about me, a looooong time. Once she roped me in and got over the initial infatuation, she had to start on the devaluation. I don't think she really has it in her to be mean, so she just withheld all compliments and praise.

I'm hoping to do something tomorrow night, I just don't know what. My good friends are always unable to do anything. I suppose I'll work on that.
Posted By: Jim1234 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/17/17 04:05 PM
Originally Posted By: Kylo

I'm hoping to do something tomorrow night, I just don't know what. My good friends are always unable to do anything. I suppose I'll work on that.


At this point, my friends are all married, and doing things with their wives. I feel like a third wheel joining them a lot of the time, so I kind of know how you feel.

I've tried to create a new circle of single guy friends to do things with, and it's not that hard. I've found a lot of guys are in the same boat I am, looking for someone to do things with, and will jump at an invitation. Good luck.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/19/17 03:17 PM
It turns out my friend texted me to go out tonight, but the wife already had plans. I need to find those other guys! I've been trying to connect with a single friend of mine, but he suggests things I'm not comfortable with.

Anyway, I have to be at church by 9:30 for Sunday school kickoff, which would have been rough after a night out. I feel like such crap after drinking, it is hardly worth it. Probably because I never do it.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/19/17 03:29 PM
The W was pretty talkative and at ease with me today. I don't know if it is the habit of Saturday being family days or what. She even walked around with no bottoms on and showed me how loose her new underwear was. This is notable since for a few days we acted like we would be modest around each other, but it just seemed silly to me. I think she wanted to show off her weight loss.

I now know she is continuing the job search a bit and working on her resume. Her getting a job would be a big help: whether she wants to get D or needs to see that being a single mom every other week isn't what she thought it would be. We'll see.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/19/17 03:38 PM
So two questions:

1. I think I'm doing a decent job at detachment, but it kind of makes me low emotion. The book says stay upbeat. So I need to be detached and upbeat, correct? Am I missing something?

2. We have a family vacation with three other families in a month. The other adults know what's going on. My W is going. I'm OK with that, or with her not going. I'm thinking it is best for the kids for her to go. Is there any guidance on what the pure DB play would be? It may be too late to make this change, but I'd like to know.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/21/17 04:35 AM
We got in a small argument over who was doing what, and it helped me to realize that we talk so little that I'm such a rookie when it comes to DB conversation.

I tried to walk away from the convo, but she kept at it, and I defended. I need to just let it go.

I've been leaving invitations open for her for some things and I just need to cut that out. She probably interprets it as pursuing. An added plus is it makes my life less complicated!

Although the "look at my undies" was organic to the convo, (I had bought two pair), it probably had a dash of temp check blended in.

Stay positive around her. I'm happy everywhere else, so shouldn't be too hard.
Posted By: doodler Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/21/17 04:44 AM
Kylo,

Did you offer to take the undies off of her and wash them? Just because you're DB doesn't mean you can't be a gentleman.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/21/17 04:49 AM
I did turn her around and squeeze her butt... I think she will have a hard time believing I'm not interested, because I am always interested. However, it is probably what is needed now.
Posted By: doodler Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/21/17 04:53 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo
I did turn her around and squeeze her butt...


That's soooo not DB. You should've gone with a spanking.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/21/17 05:30 AM
1. I think I'm doing a decent job at detachment, but it kind of makes me low emotion. The book says stay upbeat. So I need to be detached and upbeat, correct? Am I missing something?

Kylo, I just try to act the same as I always would without bringing up our R or D. I think TX or maybe AS posted something like this when it comes to detachment.

W mad = Kylo happy
W sad = Kylo happy
W happy = Kylo happy

So you are always happy and her mood has no impact on you!
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/22/17 04:23 PM
Thanks for the reminder Joe. You take in so much info it can be hard to remember. I like always happy!

I was starting to think the wife may never move this forward, but she has mentioned twice getting financial info together in the last few days. However, this is a far cry from actually sitting down with me to discuss. She has big plans until the work needed to do them comes around.

I talked to the MIL today (she needed advice). It was funny because she kept mentioning how she was always treated so poorly by my wife. Essentially turning it back to poor her. "See what I've dealt with all these years?"

1. Uh, we're talking about my divorce here.

2. It is true that my W has treated her mother like crap; but I think the two divorces, piss poor parenting, and the NPD had something to do with it!

I actually get along with the MIL just fine.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/24/17 03:20 PM
I talked to the MIL again today, and it's funny how someone not familiar with a MLC ask questions. It's tedious to answer.

Anyway, she tells me how she hopes W and I can be friends. She relates how she wanted to kill her first husband at the time of their D, but now values him as a dear friend.

I can see what will happen in my head. When I get over this, since the kids are involved, I'll be fine around her. But when I think about it now, why would I want a friend who breaks promises, is illogical, feels in competition with me, tries to bring me down by never saying anything positive, and was willing to hurt my kids because she couldn't control her emotions?

I'm going to an IC next week to get some insight, assess my odds, find out what I need to fix.
Posted By: OwnIt Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/24/17 05:11 PM
I'm there with you. I will never be friends with mine. The lying, cheating, and child abandonment are too much. I don't care how much he might turn his life around from here, the destruction is too great. I don't wish him ill, I just don't want him in my life in any capacity. My kids can make their own choices.
Posted By: AndrewP Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/25/17 05:25 AM
Kylo - thanks for the visit to my thread.

Yeah - the whole "we'll still be friends" thing. I've not read back in your thread to see if that was a factor with your W or not or just with your MIL.

I think that this is something that a very lot of us are baffled by / trying to cope with. Coly23 I know has a similar thing going on (waves) but maybe not quite the same. I've been here for a bit though and I've seen it as a very common theme.

It may be part of the whole "I didn't do anything wrong and you should continue being the person you always where while I ran off to dance with the fairies" thing that seems to happen to quite a number of our former partners.

In my case she brought this up a few times when she was home and as she was leaving. I wasn't hugely surprised when it came up during the separation meeting even though to me it was hugely off-topic.

It has set me off "spinning" for the first time in a while though asking myself what would it take for me to be "friends". I just don't see that happening. For me to even come around a bit she'd have to be honest with the kids etc about what happened. They know the basics from me now. I am positive that she won't do it though. She'll want me to buy into her own narrative which currently may be what she told her lawyer that there "was" no affair and that she hooked up after she left which perhaps she believes herself. Anyone with half a brain and was around knows that to not be true. The smug looks and petty actions which she used to use to control me are all still there though. I'm just more resistant to them now but it turns out not completely.

I can't see being friends with someone who won't own up to their actions. I'd call it mistakes but she may not look at it that way. There are a bunch of other things too that would be required to make her look like a half-decent human being to me again as well.

Will I be able to be "civil" to her? I was during the meeting but it is and probably will be the sort of civility I would give to someone who ran over my cat and drove off but then pretended that nothing happened when I saw them on the street.

Sigh

Sorry for the possible thread-jack and thanks again for the visit.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/26/17 08:44 AM
To simplify it: Be a good friend to me, and we will be friends!

At this point, they aren't being good friends.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/26/17 06:50 PM
So I'm liquored at the end of the night listening to Sheryl Crow circa college (what happened to her?), and I'm thinking of all the deep conversations we never had. She never wanted to wade out of the kiddie pool. I don't think we were too old to have lost our starry eyed hope for the future. It would be nice to have someone who could talk about more than gossip. Maybe having no basis does this to a person.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/27/17 09:01 AM
That last post wasn't helpful... Anyway, I went with a friend to a bar to watch the big fight last night. I didn't have much interest in the fight, but it was fun being around a bunch of people who were into it.

I'm hungover and feel awful, but I still got the kids to Sunday School.

I think when I go out, it is the only thing that can make her feel anything, or at least makes her show some feeling. She stumbled across "be careful" as I left the house. Going out is the only thing she asks about. And she decided today at the last minute to go to a concert tonight. I know this doesn't mean much other than I need to keep going out.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/28/17 08:50 AM
Need some clarification/help: Trying to Detach I think is making me cold to her. I still need to be nice and happy. I think I'm taking it too far for the sake of detachment. I'm thinking I should go ahead and bring myself, upbeat and happy, and if it runs into pursuing, so be it? And by running over, I mean a question or sentence too many (nothing about the R). Basically living my life how I want, and she just happens to be living here.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/28/17 09:25 AM
Kylo see below. When I am around my W I act normal like nothing is wrong. I try to be happy, upbeat and always looking good! I don't think happy and upbeat is considered pursuing I think if nothing else it will probably confuse her and make her wonder why you are so happy when she just dropped a bomb on you.

Healthy Detachment, Part 1.

I. Detachment

Detachment is critical to the process of altering and repairing a relationship.

Attached, we take personally ALL that is said, not said, done and not done.

When our ego gets wounded, we are more inclined to do/say things that undermine our goals.

When we are Detached from the actions of another, we can meet anger or indifference with love.

Met with love, we are in a position to diffuse the situation, and transform it in a way that will be in alignment with our goals.

On the flipside, detachment allows us to play it cool when we do get a positive reaction from our spouse. It is a way to break the distance/pursuer cycle.

Detachment is not withdrawal. It is not indifference. It is not the mind saying, ‘I am not getting what I want - so I must pull back.’

(*Though there may be a time in which You DO seek withdrawal & indifference, it's not now).*

It is the natural acceptance that we alone are responsible for how we act. We cannot control another person, but we can control how we respond to them.

We are responsible for our own actions (no one else is).

We are responsible for our own happiness. (No one else is)


PART II Detachment

Detachment is the:

* Ability to allow S the freedom to be him/herself.

* Holding back from the need to rescue, save or fix S from being sick, dysfunctional or irrational.

* Giving S "the space" to be him/herself.

* Disengaging from an over-enmeshed or dependent relationship with S.

* Accepting that I cannot change or control S and it was never my "duty/job" to do so.

* Establishing of emotional boundaries between me and S, so that both of us might be able to develop our own sense of autonomy and independence.

* Process by which I am free to feel my own feelings when I see S falter and fail and not to feel responsible for his/her failure, faltering or learning.

* Ability to maintain an emotional bond of love, concern and caring, without the negative results of rescuing, enabling, fixing, demanding or controlling.

* Ability to exercise emotional self-protection and prevention so as not to hang on beyond a reasonable and rational point.

* Ability to let people I love and care for accept personal responsibility for their own actions and to bail them out when their actions lead to failure or trouble for them.

* Ability to allow S to be who he/she "really is" rather than who I "want him/her to be."
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/28/17 04:41 PM
Thanks Joseph. I have some parts of detachment down, but was missing the "love" in the equation.

I came home happy today (with this newfound freedom to be happy and detached) and I think she was surprised and liked it. Thinking back on it, I realize how she is usually not happy. Never is there laughter from her, and almost never a smile. I know from earlier she said she didn't like being here and wanted to get out.

I have plans for Friday with a friend who is divorced, so I hope for some insight and a good time. As an added benefit, this guy is a real lady killer. I have had a decent number of friends that were elite in this area, but this guy is the pinnacle. Hopefully I get some reflected glory to boost my ego.

In the meantime, I've been reminding my boys how much I love them. I've done this all along, but I'm making it a little more clear now. I'm hoping this can carry them through when the D drops. In a way, I think they are getting used to do things with one parent at a time, so maybe the transition won't be so hard.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/29/17 03:01 AM
I would say just be happy and confident at all times. It's your house and your the king of your castle. It is probably a little easier for me since my W and I are separated. Remember your W probably expects you to cry, mope around and be angry. When she does not see that it will make her say WTF! She might also question how much control she has over you.

When I know I am going to see my W I try to get in the right state of mind by listening to music that pumps me up, thinking about a new shirt I am wearing or a good workout that I had or some of the ladies that have hit on me.

I also learned that detachment is a process and not a light switch. I thought I was doing a good job of it until I got into the disagreement with my W this weekend. Her emotions impacted me which if I was detached they should not so I know I have work to do.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/29/17 11:58 AM
Yeah, my W told me how she has buying replacements for things she is going to take with her, and showed me the replacement dish soap she bought. I know this is coming, but it emotionally jolts me whenever she talks about D or moving out. This is a rare occurrence, and the comments are out of nowhere, which could add to the jolt. I haven't had an emotional jolt since I was in 7th grade an unexpectedly ran into my first girlfriend at the mall. I'm not a fan of this. Well, a friend of the family gave me a compliment on how I looked, and it practically knocked me over. I acted like a kid who can barely say thank you. This whole situation has effects on you that you don't know when they will pop up.

She said she didn't want me to say "That bish took the such and such" and I joked I'd be saying that anyway, so don't buy any replacements.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/29/17 12:17 PM
After this I was looking at the credit card app, reviewing purchases and I see two out-to-eat purchases on the same day. I ask the W if this makes sense and she says she went to lunch, then later her friend (who is a loose cannon and has definitely influenced my wife for worse, who comes up with the idea to spend $300 on an in-town hotel, to buy cowboy boots for a country music concert that will never be worn again, etc.) has an hour to kill, so they go to get a drink. A bunch of teachers for the school where there, so they buy them a round of drinks. A wonderful sentiment if you have the money, really stupid if you don't. She started the story by saying it was funny, well maybe not if you're the guy paying for it...

So I go down the list and see $150 paid to the school. She tells me she made a donation to the schools fundraiser. This is double our normal contribution. She tells me as PTO president she has to give more. The other board members will see. Everyone else gives more. (this after yesterday my son comes home and tells me his friend gives $0) I tell her this isn't a smart move for someone in debt, and her way over the top volunteering can fill in for her monetary donation. She then comes back with "you donate to this children's charity, don't you care about the school?"

One trait I absolutely can not stand is worrying about money as it relates to social standing. She used to be with me on this, but now she can't handle being the poorest of her peers when we used to be the richest. My reaction was anger and just wanting her to GTFO. This trait makes me feel like I want to puke. I feel like this would have been a bigger blow-up, but we had been getting along.

Early in our marriage we completely cut off a couple we were friends with for this and how the other W always felt in competition with us.

This DB is so counterintuitive to who I am, I don't know if I can do it. If it wasn't for my faith, I really don't know what I would be doing.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/29/17 12:26 PM
Volunteering at the school has become her new thing. She feels it makes her cool. (I know it sounds stupid). She talks about how other moms take pictures with her, and brag about being with her. Gosh this sounds so dumb...

So to reinforce this, she is marching in the city parade with the boy scouts and one of the teachers yells out "Yea W, thanks for the drinks!" All the men turn to her and give her trouble. "They all think I'm some big boozer!" Well you kinda are?

Anyway, this is so high school. You'll never get your kid to stop something they are getting notoriety for. She thinks she is a big deal for doing a job no one wants and spending money that she didn't make.

There are advantages to not knowing what God wants you to do, but not in this case.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/29/17 12:29 PM
Who's name is the cc in? I took it away when my w moved out.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/29/17 03:15 PM
Everything will definitely be separated when she moves out. I think the major card we use is primarily hers, but there are plenty of others that we don't use anymore in my name. I thought she had gotten better with the spending, but I may have to open up talk of a budget again.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/31/17 02:48 PM
I think I misinterpreted detachment and cake-eating. I now have a better understanding of DB, which is great! It feels more natural to me to just be happy and do my thing (GAL) and not worry about her (detachment). More genuine, authentic, and believable. Like they say in football, if you simplify the playbook, you can play fast. I think I have done that. I was complicating things before. There is so much information here, it is easy to complicate matters.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/31/17 02:58 PM
I went to my first IC meeting today. I was talking a mile a minute trying to give her all the background I could. I was laughing with my friend afterwards: "It seems like she was saying (a tonally raised) 'Oh' a lot" I started cracking up. He says "What does that mean? Did she tell you what 'Oh' meant?"

I like her, but a lot of my core beliefs seemed novel to her? Faith, commitment, family. Maybe it is just a sign of the times, or she is really trying to start out as a Tabula Rasa?
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 08/31/17 03:07 PM
I love how new insights are gained by looking back at past events through the lens of her having borderline traits:

She basically told me what was happening, but I was too ignorant to realize it. Early in our R she said I was the first person she brought her walls down for. I thought it was a sweet comment, but didn't make much of it. In my mind, that's what you do when you love someone; and I don't have "walls". What does that even mean? Then later in the R she alludes to the fact that her walls are back up. I think this is stupid, and get a little miffed, but don't make much of it either.

She is basically narrating to me the borderline traits relationship roadmap! Pull the other in close like it is the best R ever, then push them away to keep them from hurting you.

I keep laughing at all the stuff it took me to 40 to figure out...
Posted By: doodler Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/01/17 01:18 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo
Early in our R she said I was the first person she brought her walls down for.


Kylo,

I had a similar experience. Early in my relationship with my now XW, she said, "Run away; I have too much baggage." Apparently I wasn't really listening. Now, when she complains that I never listen to her, all I can do is nod in agreement (unless I'm not listening to her).
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/01/17 02:58 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo
In my mind, that's what you do when you love someone; and I don't have "walls". What does that even mean?


You will have walls up after this experience, and lowering them again for W or another will be a real challenge. Walls are for self-preservation. It's not really something you do consciously which is why it's so hard to "lower" them.

Quote:
Then later in the R she alludes to the fact that her walls are back up. I think this is stupid, and get a little miffed, but don't make much of it either.


It's a huge red flag when someone says that.

Quote:
She is basically narrating to me the borderline traits relationship roadmap! Pull the other in close like it is the best R ever, then push them away to keep them from hurting you.

I keep laughing at all the stuff it took me to 40 to figure out...


Interesting reaction, I don't find it funny at all. My GF told me her walls were back up after we had been dating over a year and I took it very seriously. We worked on our communications and had some deep conversations and eventually months later she said she felt safe enough that they were lowered again. Next time someone says that to you then look at it as a big warning sign that says "BD coming" and try to get things back on track.
Posted By: Treasur Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/01/17 03:15 AM
My H talked about 'walls' too. Usually it's about fear.

And AS is right, we all have walls now after life has given us a kicking and people we trusted have hurt us. We'd be dumb if we didn't. I never used to have them really, or only tiny ones. It's a real conscious effort to not let the wall become too big or have it with people other than my STBXH. I try to change the wall (fear) to a boundary (self-respect) if I can.
Posted By: Treasur Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/01/17 03:16 AM
Oh, and other peoples' fears are hardly ever about us (unless we're abusive asshats!)
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/02/17 11:15 AM
Well, now I know a little more about walls! I'll be much more clued in to all kinds of emotional signs in a relationship. This could make the next one miserable for her! I find it funny/ slightly embarrassing that I could be told it was my fault every time and it took me 13 years to realize how out of whack that was.

I got upset all through the marriage with the arguments that didn't resolve; and I thought I was right most of the time, but I never realized something was awry on a different level.
Posted By: Treasur Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/02/17 01:11 PM
What do you think was awry, Kylo?
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/02/17 02:17 PM
I just meant that there had to be more to it for every marital problem to be my fault. I didn't see the pattern. It took some very in-my-face contradictions and twisting that made me look back and realize every problem we had was my fault.

The friend I went out with last night was divorced and I didn't know why. It turns out his wife was never wrong and the counselor told him his wife was a narcissist. It was good to talk about his sitch and what he went through
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/02/17 02:36 PM
I don't know how good I'll be at DB when it comes to talking with my W. I never think of what I should be doing until after it's over.
I have taken it upon myself to get the kids to Sunday school at 9:30, when our normal time has been 11:00. So I mention the plan for tomorrow, and she gets upset about the late notice (understandable) and how she can't do it now. (She is off-duty after the kids go to bed and won't do anything other than watch TV in bed). She seemed stressed all day which is a recipe for problems... So I have little patience with her, but I'm coming at it like: I just want to know what you're doing so I can plan what I'm doing with a side of clam down. She keeps up the flustered act and I tell her I'll just work around it and end it with a "nobody cares". I know, very bad. I just really don't care about her stressing about washing her hair and getting up early for 9:30 church. I just don't.

It is hard for me to have positive feelings for someone who doesn't have them for me. She walked into the same restaurant I was at on Friday. My dad pointed her out and I just let out a sigh and hoped she wouldn't see us, but she did.

Anyway, back to DB: hoo boy, I $uck.
Posted By: Holding Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/03/17 04:58 AM
Kylo, I can completely sympathize with what you're feeling. The phase you're in is something I call "What the heck is the point?" You're probably in the neighborhood of dropping the rope, if you haven't gotten there yet.

On the subject of walls, I'll admit this is something I used to do when my W would hurt me. She was full of hurtful comments. I know I should have confronted her about them more directly, but I was very conflict avoidant. At least for me, I realized that walls keep people from hurting me, but they also trapped in all of my feelings and drowned me in resentment.

Anyway, walls are bad.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/03/17 10:58 AM
A specific question: What do I say to her when she asks me about her appearance, or how should I say it? I'm thinking I just say "You look nice." and leave it at that.

She came up to me today before she went to a birthday party and asked me if her arms looked buff, (she was going to a party for a yoga studio owner). At first I gave her a "yeah, they're OK kind of shrug" (which was the absolute truth about what I thought about them: not that impressive). She looked disappointed and walked away. I felt like I was being too cold instead of happy, so I told her to come back and show me again. She flexed and I said "dayaaam!" She smiled and liked it.

I know this is a small thing, but I think I'll be in this situation 10-20 more times. Good, bad? She still pretty much hates me. I feel like no one wants to be around a downer, or someone who makes you feel bad. The downside is if you come across as too "into them". Which brings me back to a middle-of-the-road: "you look nice".
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/05/17 03:28 PM
This whole thing seems to be tearing my dad up more than me. I keep telling him it is a long process, but he keeps hoping I can report signs of reconciliation. He's getting angry and frustrated. It's nice of him but he doesn't need anymore stress to deal with.

I asked the wife if she wanted to see a video review of the car we are considering and she snapped "No! I want to write this speech!" My anger spiked, but at least I kept it to an under my breath "What a bish". Another reminder that I don't have patience to give.

I'm happy that some of my friends seem concerned and offer advice, but none of it meshes with DB. My friend asked me if I was still attracted to her, and I told him that she was the prettiest 40-year old I know. He asks me if I have told her that. Ha! So then their off-base advice just kind of makes you feel more alone. All the time I have spent learning about MLC and BPD traits and literally no one else I know will understand it.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/05/17 03:39 PM
One of my GAL activities is working on my fitness, and it is really going a long way to keeping my spirits up. I'm seeing muscles down my abs I've never seen before. The down side is they are in a place no one else will ever see them! But I like it.

What I wonder about is how the W is taking it. My guess is she notices it (she did point out a new visible muscle once); but her BPDish personality previously would tell me I care too much about my looks. That my weight loss was going too far. At one point she admitted that it made her feel bad that I was having success and she wasn't (which I believe to be the truth, and what was behind her comments).

So here I am with GAL clashing with a 180. It is a moot point since I'm going to keep doing what I am doing.
Posted By: JDub Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/05/17 10:07 PM
Kylo, reading through your thread for the first time...I can sympathize with observing traits of BPD. I'm pretty sure my W is somewhere on the spectrum, too. Her aunt (mom's sister) has schizophrenia and I think her mom, had she sought help, would have been diagnosed as clinically depressed. W has has been dealing with depression/panic attacks/extreme anxiety since I've known her.

Has your W shown these other kinds of attributes (depression, etc.)?
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/06/17 04:32 PM
Looking back, only my ignorance kept me from realizing there should be something there...

-W used to have panic attacks a lot early in the relationship. These pretty much stopped. Not sure about depression previously, but right before the bomb drop one day she seemed half-dead and mentioned that she didn't care. That she had a hard time caring about anything.

-Her mom is a narcissist and probably more. She is so self-centered it is comical. Just a poor mother.

-Her dad moved away. He took her brother with him for a period of time.

-Her brother was committed to an institution at one point. Don't know what to name it, but may be bi-polar. He is constantly moving to start over. Violent.

-Grandparent committed suicide. Don't know the issues there. I also think there's a weird aunt in there. I never paid much attention to her family history or structure.

-Her step family welcomed her with open arms, then took off in the middle of the night with no warning. Her mom was an alcoholic at this time.

-Some guy expose himself to her as a kid. Also she was cryptic, but possibly molested?

-As a girl didn't talk in school for a long time. She would sit alone in her closet. When she was older, she would always go to her friends' houses to escape the yelling and screaming fights of her mom and step-dad.

-She has an unexplainable fear of balloons. If they pop she can't handle it.

-She switched majors and colleges many times, never finishing. Dropped a class this summer after 2 weeks. Wanted to work, then stay home, then have kids, now work again.

-Always has a "next thing" to want. BPDish trait.

-Can't stand guilt. BPDish trait.

-Can't admit she is wrong or sorry. BPDish trait.

-Emotions = facts. BPDish trait.

-She would get mad at me for things I did in her dreams. BPDish trait.

-She has had a chronic illness for many years now, only at the beginning of MLC has she found a way to control it through walking an hour and 30 min. a day. -Not sure but chronic illness is said to be a BPDish trait.

-Walls were down, then were up, which follows the idealization to devaluing of the other person (me). I used to be the TP (total package) to her. I was such a good person (to her)! Then I wasn't so good. Then no compliments whatsoever. then I didn't like her anymore.

-Impulsive and reckless immediately before we started dating.

I feel like there's much more, I just can't think of all of it. I don't expect this idea to get much traction since she wouldn't be clinically diagnosed. She isn't an extreme case, and she doesn't rage outward, but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/07/17 02:33 AM
Your W and mine sound very similar!


Quote:
Looking back, only my ignorance kept me from realizing there should be something there...


Same with me.

Quote:
-Her mom is a narcissist and probably more. She is so self-centered it is comical. Just a poor mother.


Same with my W...she removed her from her life a little over a year ago.

Quote:
-Her dad moved away. He took her brother with him for a period of time.


W's dad has no relationship with my W's brother and barely has a relationship with her. She essentially takes what she can get.

Quote:
-Some guy expose himself to her as a kid. Also she was cryptic, but possibly molested?


W says her stepdad tried watching her change as a teenager from the closet and thinks he tried to finger her in a swimming pool.

-
Quote:
Always has a "next thing" to want. BPDish trait.


Same w my W. Never happy always searching.

Quote:
-Can't admit she is wrong or sorry. BPDish trait.


Oh never!!

Quote:
-Walls were down, then were up, which follows the idealization to devaluing of the other person (me). I used to be the TP (total package) to her. I was such a good person (to her)! Then I wasn't so good. Then no compliments whatsoever. then I didn't like her anymore.


My W told me I was her rock last year and she could never imagine her life without me or the kids.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/07/17 12:32 PM
So I realized last night after writing the list of BPD traits: If emotions=facts,

(1. in our R we would argue, I would make a good point and her response would be "but this is how I feel" as in that is all that should matter. 2. When she would be PMSing, she would say ridiculous things. After the PMS was over I would ask her about it expecting her to say "please disregard that". Instead she would say that everything she said was absolutely true)

Then when/if she comes out of this in a year or two, she will have had a year or two to feel that she doesn't love me anymore, we have nothing in common, I am the cause of all her pain, etc. etc... Past experience says she is going to own all of these feelings and I am up the creek. All of these feelings will have become facts.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/07/17 12:35 PM
Holding mentioned being in the neighborhood of dropping the rope. I had to look up the definition. Maybe I am. My main motivation for this is for my boys and my religion. If an alien came and abducted her, I don't know how much I would really care.
Posted By: TBSakaJ9 Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/07/17 12:40 PM
You have to let it go....nothing you can do. The longer you hold on the longer it will take you to detach. You are fighting for your MR and your boys by not fighting at all. Make sense?

Just take care of yourself, your boys and you will be just fine.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/10/17 02:53 PM
On Friday the W went to happy hour at a recently divorced friend's house. W and her friends used to always rag on this woman for going out all the time and ditching her kids. This woman gets a divorce, quickly finds another man and buys a house with him that they are remodeling together. Now, according to my W, "She isn't so bad" Ha!

The event struck me as a great opportunity for the man of this house to have a guy there specifically to meet my W (W has gone to their house a few times now). It sent a charge into me. I didn't know how I would react to my W cheating. OTOH, I didn't worry about it too long, and the charge I felt didn't last long. I'm still not sure how I would react.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/10/17 03:05 PM
On Saturday I met with my IC for the second time. A few takeaways:

-IC doesn't seem to have much hope for the R. She isn't familiar with the "fog" of MLC. She doesn't think these things happen overnight, (which they don't, but the ILYBNILWY does). I don't think she jibes with my values and might think I'm a little weird to try and stay. None of this was stated, but it was what I was reading out of the situation. It put a damper on my hope for the R, although I would have put my odds at 15% anyway.

-Also she brought up a Borderline trait I missed: Object Constancy. Basically my current attitude toward my W is "THE" way I feel about her. She doesn't consider that I made a marriage commitment, or maybe I was an amazing H last week. all that matters is the current state of affairs, and that becomes how things "always" are. I used to say that she lives in a microcosm. whatever happened this week is what always happens. This also explains how she could feel I was using her for sex. My commitment to her didn't register. My track record of trying to save it for marriage didn't mean anything. It is flipping amazing that all this was there and I had no clue.

-The further removed I get from our past R, the more I realize the parts that weren't normal or healthy, but in the moment it is hard to discern.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/10/17 03:29 PM
I had a wedding to attend Saturday. I had asked W a month ago if she wanted to go (since we were both invited and I needed to RSVP). She said no. I had to attend, so I RSVP'd 1. About a week ago, W sends me a calendar invite to notify me of her going out with her friend this Saturday. I RSVP "no", because of the wedding. Previously when I RSVP "no" to these requests, she knows it means I can't do it.

Well I tell her I'll be leaving at 4 on Saturday and she gets uppity about her plans, I tell her I sent back the RSVP and she seems to believe me.

I go to the wedding, not sure how I will feel about it. Luckily, I think it is beautiful and blessed. I'm glad I wasn't bitter. I was a little bummed/nostalgic for all the young people in the wedding. I remember that time when you had all your friends around and they were available.

A guy I know was at the wedding and his W recently said she wanted a D, so I asked him all about his sitch. nothing to learn there, but the guy already has three women interested in him! Jeez, and I'll be diplomatic and just say I'm shocked.

So at the wedding, I think I'm doing pretty well for an introvert (until I can get some drinks in me) solo at a wedding where I'm not sure if I will know anyone. I help the guy staring down D with his sitch and as selfish as he is, he really appreciates it. I'm making people laugh left and right, getting compliments on my attire, but then, and this is embarrassing, I take a pic with my friends. In the pic, they look just like I think they look. I, however, look nothing like what I see in the mirror. I'm a few drinks in and I start wondering about my prospects if the D goes through. I decide to ghost even before the play Shout. I told everyone that is the only song I dance to, so people were looking forward to it like it would be a big moment. Ha! So a good night, but a bad ending.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/10/17 03:37 PM
I've had such little contact with the W this weekend. I had one chance to have a DB interaction and didn't succeed. I just can't handle her snippy attitude. The R is really starting to feel dead, and she feels like just another person. A morose powder keg of a person.

I've also come up with a good summary for W if people ask: "She's great! As long as you're not me."
Posted By: Maika Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/11/17 12:21 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo

I've also come up with a good summary for W if people ask: "She's great! As long as you're not me."


I know you're hurting Kylo, but don't say that. You're giving her way too much power over your emotions and state of being. Rather have a response that communicates you're indifferent about how she is.
Posted By: Holding Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/11/17 02:47 AM
Kylo, I think you did well at the wedding. I imagine it's a very difficult occasion to sit through while your own M seems on the way out. I'm an introvert too, so I can sympathize.

Originally Posted By: Kylo
-Also she brought up a Borderline trait I missed: Object Constancy. Basically my current attitude toward my W is "THE" way I feel about her. She doesn't consider that I made a marriage commitment, or maybe I was an amazing H last week. all that matters is the current state of affairs, and that becomes how things "always" are. I used to say that she lives in a microcosm. whatever happened this week is what always happens. This also explains how she could feel I was using her for sex. My commitment to her didn't register. My track record of trying to save it for marriage didn't mean anything. It is flipping amazing that all this was there and I had no clue.


Reading this blew me away. My STBXW is just like this, and I never realized this was a sign of BPD. Thinking back, when we had M problems in the past, my STBXW always seemed to extend the timeframe in her mind. So if we fought last week, all of a sudden it would become "this past month". Man, this is a good realization, I just wish it hadn't come so late.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/11/17 04:46 PM
I know. This whole connecting the BPD dots is fascinating and blowing my mind. There were so many clues and I knew nothing about it. On top of that I wasn't really interested in any of it. I wanted us to have our R and leave behind all that other BS.

I just remembered that she barely graduated HS for various reasons, I think mostly due to absences. Her home life was so troubled. The principal knew her very well and cried at her graduation because she didn't know if my W would make it.

Maika: I know. I'm not really going to say that. I just stumble through the standard bs anyway.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/11/17 04:59 PM
So this morning we actually talked for a few minutes. Salient points are that she wants to get a mediator because she can't figure out the D paperwork and doesn't trust me to do it/help. We didn't come to any kind of agreement on this, so I imagine I will just leave this alone. I don't think she understands that we will still need to divide things up.

She said she needs someone to fight for her, and started tearing up. She said I would try to give her as little as possible.

I told her she really needs to get a job first, since so much hinges on that and how much it pays. Then everything else can fall into place. Plus she can build up a little war chest.

Overall I did a good job of validating and told her how she would be great at the job I found in her field. I realized that I actually have done this whole validation thing in the past whenever we discussed things calmly (a rare occurrence). It felt familiar, so I didn't have to really try. Once we started getting into heated arguments, however, I argued like a lawyer in cross-examination.

She agreed to changing the beneficiary on the life policy from her to a trust for the kids, so things still seem to be reasonable.

Nothing really got accomplished though. She will have to actually put some time aside and talk to me for this to get anywhere, and she doesn't want to do that.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/11/17 05:09 PM
Back to Saturday. I text her that I have another appt. next Saturday. She asks me what these appointments are for. I text her "Botox" and "Penis enlargement". Then after a few minutes I text "Counseling". She texts back "Good for you!" Ha! Talk about a recipe for taking things the wrong way. She then texted a response to my jokes.

I wonder if her IC gives her this advice: After the BD she probably answers my texts and calls 40% of the time. Very DBish. I have to say it is supremely annoying. I only reach out to get or give info. Like today I was at the car dealer trying to get numbers together. The salesman asks which color I want. I think he wanted to sell the car right then. I text the W what color she wants. No response. Since I ran out of time, I didn't need it today, but I'm of a mind just to pick the color myself.
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/12/17 02:24 PM
She is filled with such venom and hate towards me, it just slips out, not really related to what we are talking about. She was scared of moving the propane tank on the grill and said she didn't know how to disconnect it. I just made a twisting motion with my hand, showing her that's all you have to do. I WAS messing with her a little, then she comes back with a snippy "I can't do everything." Huh? I know this is a little remark, but what is notable is how angry it made me, and it lasted for a few hours. My patience with her is nil.
Posted By: AnotherStander Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/13/17 07:39 AM
Originally Posted By: Kylo

I told her she really needs to get a job first, since so much hinges on that and how much it pays. Then everything else can fall into place. Plus she can build up a little war chest.

Overall I did a good job of validating and told her how she would be great at the job I found in her field. I realized that I actually have done this whole validation thing in the past whenever we discussed things calmly (a rare occurrence). It felt familiar, so I didn't have to really try. Once we started getting into heated arguments, however, I argued like a lawyer in cross-examination.


^^^^ Not not NOT validation. That comment about how she would be great at the job you found her, wow. Very passive/aggressive. And then arguing with her, ugh. The whole point of validation is to reduce/ remove conflict. You're not getting it. Please go have a look at the validation sticky if you really do want to work on validation (I don't get the impression you do though).
Posted By: Kylo Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/13/17 11:08 AM
AS, I realize my writing needs more clarification. The validation was separate from the encouraging her about the job. A lot of "I understand" and "I can see how you feel that way".

The arguing I mentioned was a comment on our past. We didn't argue during this discussion. We really don't talk enough TO argue. Before BD we mostly argued strenuously, and emotions were high; but on the rare instance when we would discuss something calmly, I was very understanding of her point of view. Come to think of it, I can't remember a time when she said anything remotely close to "I can understand how you feel" I wonder if she ever could relate to how I feel.
Posted By: 25yearsmlc Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/22/17 05:35 PM
all I see in your posts, so far, is stuff about your w's personality disorder or your concerns about HER MLC or HER defects.

You cannot control or fix her. Plus I don't know if you are simply a critical partner or lashing out at her, or if you just do not like her.

But what are you doing to work on in yourself? From what you say, you don't compliment her but you want compliments from her.

And you yourself admit you make biting remarks and your present goal seems to be not to do as much of that and to get her to start a conversation with you. But that seems risky to me, for her. Because what you call "kidding" you admit often angers her, and you used the word "sarcasm".

As an avocation I write & perform stand up comedy. I know something about it. Sarcasm conveys contempt. It better be damn witty to justify itself. Better to use it on oneself in a self deprecating way.

Teasing affectionately requires that genuine affection accompany it AND self deprecating humor follows. To be safe, best to stay with compliments that are authentic and No kidding and No jokes if they are about her or towards her

and from what I can see, maybe stay away from diagnosing HER and work on you.

This^^ is not a criticism, it's an observation with a suggestion. I understand the need to understand our partners and to assign blame or crazy or evil crazy to explain their choices.

Sometimes their choices, when we really reflect, are not so unjustified. It's good news in a way b/c that means You can do something about it. Work on you.
Posted By: Cadet Re: New to the journey and thank you. - 09/23/17 01:08 AM
New thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2761362#Post2761362
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