Leah, no way to communicate via email. We would have to pick a day and time and place to meet. I would suggest the Starbucks in Southcenter Mall (not too far from you). Sounds like you may be too busy on this trip though. If you can do it tomorrow, I have good availability mid morning to early afternoon.
I would love to do that. I will be at Starbucks at Southcenter Mall tomorrow at 10AM. I will wear an orange Auburn University shirt so you can't miss me.
Sounds good. I'll wear a purple wool scarf (in case I miss your Auburn T).
This is so exciting that you're able to meet! I'd love for you to share any highlights of your conversation with us.
Cadence, so sorry you couldn't have met with us. I can tell you this, Leah is exactly what you would picture her to be, a cute as a button Southern spitfire who looks nowhere near her age. Her H is one major dummy, but we already knew that. It's nice when people are just as you would expect them to be.
Wow, this made me smile. It's nice to see people here meeting up! Sorry about your sitch Leah. You seem like a strong woman. I hope all the best for you!
And let me add..... Ownit is one beautiful, strong, inspiring, uplifting, intelligent young lady! This forum is amazing, but there is nothing quite like a "divorce-busting hug" IRL. We shared some stories, some laughs, almost a few tears, and some hugs. What a wonderful, unforgettable day. I know I made a friend for life.
I would have loved to be there! I'm so glad the two of you got to meet.
I'm jealous you two got to hang! We need a Florida beach rendezvous on my coast
It's a little hot now but in a couple months it will be beautiful here for some cocktails on the water
I would love to meet those of you I interact with regularly on the board because I have these pictures in my mind of what you all look like
Hey T, I'm all in for a beach trip! Wouldn't that be FUN? Enjoy your soccer match tonight.
Anytime! I live in a small little beach community kind of one way in one way out, but it has been built up a lot of over the last couple years. I can't even remember the last time we went to the beach because it's always so crowded now. We usually take the boat out to what's called Disappearing Island, it's an island that, depending on the tide, is there or not hence the name haha.
Anytime you're in the area let me know! I have to go to Mobile in November for a skills seminar/check off for my certification. I have to say I was quite impressed with that area for what I had pictured it to be lol
Today is H's 50th birthday. I'm staying NC. But it hurts!
hugs.
Would it help if you go out and celebrate YOU?
Today is H's 50th birthday. I'm staying NC. But it hurts!
Hey, that was me a few months ago!
It does hurt. It's hard when you start to think about how you'd once pictured celebrating their milestone birthday and then how it actually ends up playing out.
I'm with Tobias. Make plans, get out of the house, and it will help you get out of your head.
Hugs, Leah.
Hey Leah, hope you're doing ok. Nice you could meet up. I'd love to get out stateside at some point and meet some of the folks that have been helping me through.
Stay strong.
Yeah, I'm still in WA at my daughter's and she's working. Maybe we will go out to dinner or something. She suggested maybe I have myself a little burning ceremony, etc., but since I'm not at home, I don't really have anything handy to set on fire. LOL. Think I'll head to the pool until she gets off.
One year ago we were getting on a cruise ship to Jamaica. Everyone kept telling me how lucky I was b/c H was so obviously in love with me and didn't mind showing it.
AND we were planning for his birthday. When I turned 50, he threw a party to end all parties at our lake house. Invited everyone that's important to me, childhood friends, college friends, teaching friends, and put many of them up for overnight visit. It was the happiest weekend. And I was so looking forward to giving back to him that kind of experience.
My daughter just sent me this in a text-
"This is anything but easy, but you are anything but weak."
She's a keeper.
Leah, I hope the day has been easier than you thought and you are out for a lovely dinner enjoying this beautiful day. I am suddenly flooded with hope and looking forward to my new life. I wish the same for you.
One year ago we were getting on a cruise ship to Jamaica. Everyone kept telling me how lucky I was b/c H was so obviously in love with me and didn't mind showing it.
I know this feeling. Mine was so affectionate and proud to be with me. It wasn't a slow dying down of affection/passion. More like it was there 100% and then it was gone.
It's really hard to make sense of it.
I think this is one of the toughest challenges, to reconcile our memories of what was and what is now. The constant loop of well, how could he/she have done that then and be doing this now...and there is no easy way to make sense of it. Other than to accept that what was in the past is done and we have to deal with what is real today while accepting that we have no idea how things will unfold in the future.
Hey friends,
Finally over the travel from WA to AL. I don't see how these overseas travelers make it. Wow, it was a long day. I'm still catching up.
Whatever you look to for light and good vibes and warm hugs and good karma, please send some my way this week. I'm meeting with a financial advisor tomorrow that my Mom uses, who's agreed to go over my finances with me at no charge. Then I will make appointment with my L to decide how I want to proceed. I've worked all day (and the week before I left) doing my homework, and hope I haven't left anything out that I need to request in my legal documents.
I'm not sure how I'm going to proceed, whether it's going to be a marital settlement, or a file for divorce. Lots of pros and cons both ways- two of which are if I just get the settlement, I can stay on H's medical insurance, plus since he's in a fast track to much more money in his job (and he has 9 more years to work than I, since I guess I'm a COUGAR)- I'm better off that way. Not like a divorce is going to change my life right now. We already have NC. I guess I just can't get married again yet.
Sigh. Oh well, I guess that works out, since I don't even KNOW any single men. LOL.
On the other hand, if I DO go for divorce, that ends my marriage at 13 and 1/2 years, so even if we R on down the road, and even remarried, it would affect my LENGTH OF MARRIAGE, which would affect money down the road.
So confusing, all this, and really it all boils down to protecting myself financially, since we all knew this current M was already over.
On top of that, H is supposed to use his "come to see me" airline ticket this week to fly down to see his family and go on their annual beach trip.
I truly cannot believe all this is coming in the same week. All I can say is, thank God for you Cadence, you told me to go get Xanax. That may save my sanity this week.
Thanks for any prayers, good thoughts, warm hugs, Karma darts, that anyone has any extras to send my way this week.
I WILL SURVIVE! Love you all.
Thinking of you, Leah. Awed by your grace. x
That's my goal, Treasur,
Grace and dignity, in the face of rejection by ONE PERSON.
Let's not define ourselves by one person, EVER.
This is how we are going to do this. We are the ones the fools have left. And it's THEIR LOSS.
A life well-lived is the best revenge.
If it helps on the financial/D options, I've found so far that giving myself time really helps. Time doing other things so you're not chewing at it. It helps you tune in to what feels right/best for you and it helps you see options or ideas that weren't immediately obvious.
You are right that none of us are valued through just one person's eyes. It is also true that this was a best friend you trusted and you are having to make decisions you never thought you would. Both are true. And it's ok to feel a whole bunch of things all at the same time! Just don't let those feelings - good or not so - be driving the boat xxx
The soonest I can meet with lawyer again is next Monday.
I met with financial guy today, and he was horrified by the draft agreement that my L sent me. It was kind of good to get the validation that it wasn't just me being picky, but bad that maybe I've chosen the wrong lawyer. Finance guy also thinks I'm not going for nearly enough, all things considered. So I'm going to take this week and look at all the numbers again.
I saw in our joint bank account that he used a shuttle service to get him from the airport today, so that means he is less than an hour from here, RIGHT NOW. I guess he leaves for the beach with his mom and sisters tomorrow. For some reason, that sent me spinning. I truly had a full out panic attack, and Xanax didn't even touch it.
My sweet D31 called right in the middle of it, and she was so precious. I said I feel like some of my support people are thinking, For God's sake, girl, get over this already. The man's not worth it, etc.....
She texted me a little later and said, "I can't speak for anyone else, but I understand that we've not even had the funeral yet. So let the grief come as it needs to. Thanks for answering the phone earlier and letting me hold some space for you tonight."
On top of the rest of this lovely day, I get a call to come downtown tomorrow to meet some Dept of Education (state) main person to talk about a job opportunity. Of course, since I've been mostly binge watching TV and laying in the pool, none of my professional clothes fit. So here I go to buy an outfit. Today was a "fat" day (and you women will know what I mean) so the last place I wanted to be was in a dressing room.
BUT, I pushed through, and I'm going to look (and probably feel) like a million bucks tomorrow. (If I'll get off this forum and go hem the new pants and jacket sleeves.)
I got this.
Ok, Leah - 3 well done stars! Go you! Taking objective advice - tick. Listening to your lovely wise daughter - tick. Braving the dressing room (and why is the lighting always so horrid too?) to prep for your meeting - tick.
Way more than a million dollars, you are above rubies x
Knowledge is power Leah. You learned all this stuff because you are doing the right thing and not acting like a chump. Honor your successes and good luck tomorrow.
You have absolutely got this, Leah.
I understand why knowing H was near sent you spinning. His physical distance also allowed you some psychological distance, and now it feels like you don't have either. But that's just a feeling and you can talk yourself through it.
Good luck on your job chat, Leah. You can do anything you put your mind to. Walk into that meeting showing that you are strong, intelligent, and capable, because you are all of those things!
I need some help.
I just found out that they aren't leaving for the beach until tomorrow. That means he is 45 minutes away, and doesn't care enough to see me, with a whole free day and night in front of him.
The pain of that feels enormous right now, overwhelming, consuming, like fire. I'm trying everything- exercise, self talk, meditation, soft music, soothing candles, and I can't stop the tears.
This grief is actually physical. My whole body yearns for him. OH GOD, please let this end soon. I've never known true heart break until now.
Can you go do something for you? Make a new friend? I am sorry you are having a rough day.
(as to the conversation about lawyers...obviously look into if you deserve more but too often lawyers bring these things up because they can then make more money...the more conflict between the different sides the longer the process and the more they make...) --> translation: if you want to just get this over with maybe just getting it over with allows you the freedom to move on.
Leah, what if you thought through what would happen if you did see him. What would he look like, how would you feel, what would you talk about? Would he own what he has done? Would he apologize? Would he show remorse? Would he offer to make things right? Would you believe him if he did? Would he stop seeing this OW? Would there be another? I think if you were really honest with yourself about what would happen, you would realize that you really don't want to see him and that doing so would make things far more painful than just knowing he is somewhat near.
Im so sorry you are struggling right now, Leah.
If your H elects to not make an effort to see you, it's because he is ashamed in my opinion. If I was carrying on an affair, the last person I would want to see is the person I was cheating on.
Remember, this one person does not define your worth.
Continue to act with dignity and grace and you can't go wrong.
(((Leah))) I am sorry. Heartbreak is the deepest pain. ... but it never lasts ... And your heart is NOT broken--remember that these are only battles scars, and once healed it will be stronger. As you overcome this, you will be stronger and able to love deeper than before.
These are your words and I love them! Let is all live by them:
Grace and dignity, in the face of rejection by ONE PERSON.
Let's not define ourselves by one person, EVER.
This is how we are going to do this. We are the ones the fools have left. And it's THEIR LOSS.
A life well-lived is the best revenge.
I love what Ownit has said. The reality of seeing him would not be how you can only imagine/fantasize. You know that right? That is your wounded heart talking. So you can go and nurture it however you need to. Tomorrow, you wake up, dust yourself off, and show the world youre still shining brightly.
Blu
Thanks, friends. I feel better now. Trying to start my "million bucks" make-over for this afternoon. I wish we could post pics. Y'all would be impressed.
And you're all right. I felt so needy this morning, I probably would have slept with him, which would have been disastrous on several levels, not to mention unsafe.
He has not seen his "pride and joy" house since Dec 25, and although I sent him photos all along of the progress being made, he just kept saying I can't wait to come and see it! (And for the record, I believe he meant it at the time.) So, I wouldn't be at all surprised if he didn't ride by today, just to look at least from outside. And if he peeked over into the garden courtyard, he's be amazed. Be funny to catch him doing that.
But, oh well, I won't be here to catch him, b/c I'll be downtown in my hot professional outfit working on a new job, that will be filled with new, exciting people to meet and things to do.
Blu, thanks for reminding me OF MY OWN WORDS. DUH. I'm going now to write them on some note cards and stick up around my house.
I'm eternally grateful for you friends on this forum. Someone's always out there available to listen in a really dark moment. I know this will get easier. I tell other people that on here. It's just so much harder to look inward.
Leah, awesome! I'm sure you look absolutely amazing.
I second Thornton that this is not flat rejection, which is probably how you're reading it. He knows he's made a mess, he knows you're not falling all over yourself to see him, so he's avoiding having to deal with the mess he's made.
I know I always felt the worst when I read H's actions as being rejection of me. Then I'd step back, look at his actions and choices, and remember that it wasn't about me. It was about him. If he couldn't see me clearly or was projecting something onto me, that was his loss.
I know this will get easier. I tell other people that on here. It's just so much harder to look inward.
Look inward, Leah. There's a part of you that wants you to see it and heal it.
It may sound corny, but the overwhelming grief you felt - that was your inner child asking you for help healing. There's something that she hasn't ever recovered from that is causing you to feel this pain so much deeper than is necessary.
This is an opportunity to figure out what is going on inside of you and to heal. That's what will really make this easier.
I'm sorry, Leah. I get the yearning. And I get how confusing it is to spin around on the CB/GAL wheel when your H is having an A and you're having to deal with legal/D stuff.
All I can say is that I'm truly sorry for your pain, and that I think you're amazing
Well, here's a little update.
I'm rocking along making preparations to file for D, but cannot get comfortable with the attorney I've hired, so checking into other recommendations, etc., which is taking much longer than it should for various reasons.
H is on beach trip with his mom and sisters over the weekend. They returned on Sunday, but he did not fly out until today (Tuesday). So just on a whim, yesterday morning after his sister called me on her way in to work and told me that he was still at her house, and that he had not said much during the trip except that he and I had tried to work things out and couldn't (?????) and that he had seemed a little down and not quite himself, I called him. He did not answer but texted me in a few minutes and said he had been in the shower. So I just texted him back and said, if you're still in town, I'd love to see you, and I'd like for you to see the house. No hard talk, just to meet up and visit for a bit. He called me, and said he'd really like that, so he came down about 12 and we spent the afternoon together.
It just almost surreal, because it went so much better than I could have expected, but then again, it went exactly like I had pictured it when I thought it was going to happen earlier this spring. It was very easy and natural feeling. We visited for a bit, I showed him the house and gardens and all the improvements, then he asked if I wanted to get some lunch. So we went to the DMV office and took care of a car tag, then when I suggested places to lunch, he said I'd really like to just go somewhere quick then go back to the house and spend some time with you by the pool. So we went by the market and picked up some light things and came home. We spent the afternoon by the pool, had a few drinks, and just enjoyed our time. Every now and then, we would veer off into R talk, but one of us would pull us back. There was still some serious chemistry between us, and we allowed some of that, but I was very strong about boundaries, which was tough, but I definitely left him wanting to come back.
There was a lot of flirting, which was so refreshing. We did discuss divorce, and I asked him if that was what he wanted. He said I honestly don't know what I want, but I would totally understand if you D me. He said, but even if you do, I would still want to come down and spend time with you. It felt like to me, that not much would really change if we D right now. I certainly would not go back up north to live if we don't, not right now anyway. It just felt like maybe I should hold off and see where this goes. We both realize and acknowledge that if one of us meets someone, etc., then so be it. He said he is no longer in a relationship with anyone, which may or may not be true. I just didn't feel the need to know more about that right now. What I DO know is, he still has feelings for me, and he even said he loves me and misses me. And I think, for now, that is where I am going to leave it. Just go ahead with my life here, and if and when I feel I need a divorce from him, then I will file. I'm just not sure we are done with each other forever. And while I don't think a divorce will help me right now, unless he starts to be weird with finances, I do see where it could hurt me.
When he left, he called me on his way back to his sister's, and thanked me for the day. He said he's not felt that happy in a long time. He even started to say something about let's look at a weekend soon when you're free...... and I just laughed and said Hold on, cowboy, let's just enjoy what we had today, for now. He laughed and we hung up.
I have no idea what even today will bring. I expect HUGE pushback from my friends and family about the little bit I plan to share with them, because they are going to see myself setting up for another hurt. But I've spoken with my counselor this morning, and she is supportive of me doing what I feel is right for me, right now. Hopefully she can help me navigate these waters to find the answers that work for me, and not let others' opinions influence me to move too quickly. I have a hard time with that.
I don't mind 2x4s from you guys though. And I expect some. That's OK. Somehow it's easier to take them from you, than from my sister or my kids. I know they just want to protect me.
Ownit, I hope you are seeing this. Sorry I cut the texting short last night. I honestly have not been that tired in a long time. Although it was a really good day, I found myself completely wiped out last night. I slept a good 8 hours straight, and it's been a long time since that happened.
One day at a time......
Wow, you did well! If you're not sure, and you can protect your sanity and bank accounts, then doing nothing is an option too.
Leah, I'm glad to read your update. I was a weepy mess yesterday so good thing we didn't talk.
I think all this is great, but a word of caution. He tried one or more people and "is not in a relationship right now". Thus, Plan B comes into focus, at least for a bit. Keep the expectations at zero, less than zero if you can. Let him lead. Do not pursue. No need to rush the divorce. Watch the money (and the credit cards if you can).
Watch out for the same pattern of promising to come and not showing up. Keep moving forward for you.
Happy for you Leah. Just want you to keep that spicy little heart a little safe right now.
Leah
((( )))
I understand where you are coming from. Did you two ever discuss any OW?
While I support the R aspects of this, fully, please please watch the finances. More than you think you should.
Do whatever you need to do so that you are certain you are financially safe.
The thing you are sure of right now is that he is not committed to the m.
So please just check and protect yourself.
Otherwise you sound like you handled it really well.
Thanks, ladies! So far, no painful 2x4s. Just loving cautiousness.
Treasur, yes, I think I like to think of it that way- doing nothing toward D right now is an option. It doesn't take away my power to go ahead and file at any given time.
Ownit, I'm so sorry you were weepy. Call me later if you feel like it.
((((( )))))
25, warnings taken. I appreciate yours, and everyone's, honesty and truth-telling in my possible blind spots.
I DO concede that he is not committed to the M. But then again, at this point neither am I. And I think after yesterday, we both fully understand that. At the same time, I don't think either of us is committed to a D AT THIS TIME. I guess that's the difference that yesterday made to me. Prior to seeing him in person, I just did not know. And although I still don't know and can never know, his intentions for the future, I'm more sure of my own. And that is that they are not based on what he does or doesn't do with our relationship. It's what I will choose to do. And there's huge freedom in that for me.
Financially, yes, at the first sign of my not seeing the money each week, I will take action. I don't know that I will ever trust his words again. But back in January, I would have. And since we don't have joint assets for him to be hiding in the first place, there's only what lies ahead that he can steal or hide from me. Some of that, I can control, but some of that, if he chooses to do that, are really out of my control. As long as my needs and wants are being met,my future inheritance is secure in my name only, and my retirement is only mine, I stay on his excellent health insurance, then I think I'm OK. I will go back and meet with my mom's $ guy though, just to be sure I'm doing all I should be doing.
We did not discuss details of OW. He knows I know a name, and that he has been with others since me. He was under the impression (from other family members) that I have also dated. I didn't really dwell on that. I may feel differently about other people as I wade through this, and if I do, then I will file. For now, we are separated, and living our own lives, which may or may not include each other down the line. And today, I'm OK with that. This turn of events is still very, very fresh and raw. I just don't know how I'll feel even tomorrow. I don't want to file or not file depending on my feelings on any given day, though. I want to know I am doing the right thing when I do take that action. I'm just not there yet.
Leah the benefits and finances you have are unusual but make me feel way more comfortable for you.
You have a good head on your shoulders and btw, let him think you date. Maybe you will.
(Why explain now, only to modify it later when you do date? Best to leave it alone since it's none of his business anyhow).
((( )))
Aww, Leah! I'm so pleased to read this.
That must have felt nice. Here you were imagining he had no feelings for you and wasn't filing because he was lazy, but he said he doesn't want to D.
I think you did fantastic holding up boundaries with him and keeping things breezy and nice. You should feel really proud of yourself.
I have no 2x4s for you. Just keep an eye out for your well being, because you are your priority.
I understand the worry about friends and family. I would just be open with them and say "I'm sharing this with you because you are important to me and I want you to know what's going on. I know you might not be happy about it because you worry for me, and I appreciate it, but I've got my wits about me and I'm being very sensible. I'm just not sure I'm done with the marriage. I'll still be protecting myself, I promise you that."
Anyone who loves you will support you if you are very clear with them that Leahsue is no fool. If someone still gives you a hard time, either stop opening up to them (without saying anything), or say "I'm disappointed. I know you may not agree with me, but I'm not looking for agreement. I'm looking for support. If I can't get that from you, that's okay, but I won't want to talk about that area of my life anymore."
I think what you did was very sensible, personally.
I LOVE YOU FRIENDS! No matter how my personal life turns out, I will be fine, and I TRULY do not think that would be the case, had I not been led to this forum, and to all of you.
.....on our way to MEH.
Good job, Leah. You basically DB'd like a pro and gained some insight and clarification in the process. I won't repeat what others have said as you know how to protect yourself. I'm proud of you.
I think I'm in the minority here so perhaps I should keep my 2*4s to myself? I'm just confused, but more so glad that you feel good about your interactions with him. That's what really matters :-)
Blu
Blu,
I am curious to hear your take on it. Bring on the 2x4s! Seriously, I value your thoughts. Every angle needs to be explored.
My S35 is here for a few days and I got the first push-back about my decision to hold off on filing. While he makes it clear he will support me either way, I think for him, it's more about - why NOT just go ahead and file, get some things legally in place, THEN see where a new R goes.
Late yesterday, I got a call from the friend who was trying to get me in to see the local "best" attorney, who is of course going to cost me a huge retainer. She has gotten me an opportunity for an appointment, and I need to decide whether to take advantage of this while it's here. There may not be a window open that long to see this particular attorney.
I think if I make the appointment, go in and see him, he's going to call BS if I'm undecided about filing. He stays booked up for months in advance. I need to be sure what I want to do before I go in for an appointment. On the other hand, if I let this chance pass, then decide in 2 weeks or a month that I need to file, I may not get the chance, at least with this attorney. Not to mention the favors a couple of people have called in to get me this appointment.
I've thought maybe I should go ahead and call him today, but ask to set an appointment up for a month from now, which will give me a little more time to closely examine my motivations for what I actually want to do.
Clearly, I'm very conflicted this morning about what to do. If it were only whether to file or not, without the added pressure of seeing this particular attorney, I think I would hold off for a little longer. And it may turn out that I didn't even need an attorney this strong or expensive. Without knowing what H's reaction to my proposal is going to be, or how much he will fight me on the terms, it's so hard to know whether to go for this "bulldog" attorney, who has the reputation for going for the jugular, and possibly over-paying for a divorce, that could possibly be obtained for a much smaller amount of money. My friend keeps saying, why pay to kill a gnat with a hammer when it would be just as dead with a fly swatter? And that makes sense, unless H comes out with guns blazing and calls in his NYC attorney friends and running buddies (and some scary ones at that)..... then I'm not sure a fly swatter is going to do the trick.
Any thoughts would be helpful, just so I'm sure I'm looking at every angle.
Also, I'm still struggling with the term "no-fault" divorce. I guess when I hear that, it makes me think that neither party is claiming that the other is in any way "at fault", but it's been explained to me that is not exactly true, that it's a misleading phrase. That if this were to go to court, for example, I could still claim that adultery caused the break up of this marriage (by H's own admission to adultery), and that the judge could choose to take that into consideration. If anyone with legal background is reading, I'd love some input into whether my understanding of this is true.
One more question, from a legal standpoint.....
If in the future, I had sex with my H, would that invalidate any claims down the road that adultery could be brought up in a court battle? It seems that I've read on here, that it would invalidate that argument, because it would mean I had "forgiven" him? Maybe I dreamed that.
I sure wouldn't want to give up that Ace up my sleeve for a roll in the hay. If I'm honest, that's one of the things that stopped me this past Monday, because I sure wanted to give in to that chemistry.
Still want thoughts and ideas on my musings and questions above, but I went ahead and called the attorney's office. He's so far booked out, even with the favors called in to get me an appointment, it may have still taken a month. So I'm glad I went ahead and called. Assistant is going to talk to him and call me back with an appointment, and a ball-park retainer fee. Gulp.
But I'm glad I made the call. It feels like a plan, but a well-thought out one by the time I get there. My S35 is happy with it, too. Now I'm going to use him to do some limb trimming in the yard. He'll love that. LOL.
leahsue - your jurisdiction may have different rules but here there's a 90 day window for filing based on adultery. It's assumed if you've waited more than 90 days that you're ok with an open marriage. The law also goes on to very explicitly point out that if "you" are the adulterous one that you can't use that clause
. To my knowledge having sex with your H doesn't change anything on that.
The advice that I've read and from what my own L advised me is that filing based on adultery means going straight to court and much higher fees. It is a possibly faster exit but not necessarily so.
Again, your jurisdiction may be different but the separation agreement is separate from the divorce and "fault" may play no part in deciding who gets what especially since the kids are grown so being a "good parent" isn't a factor. You could get a divorce for adultery and then spend years fighting over the "stuff".
My recommendation is to go see this lawyer for just a consult and pay for an hour or so of their time. This will do two things. First off it will acquaint you with how the law and procedures apply in your case. Secondly it takes this particular lawyer off the eligible ones for your H. I once read a story where a woman had a consult with "all" the available lawyers in her area just to block her H from them.
Have your list of questions prepared and have all your facts at hand for the lawyer. You'll want to create a timeline and be able to easily answer questions about the preferred settlement. Don't let them waste time doing up forms or getting financial information at this point. Time "is" money to a lawyer. Ask questions such as if it is in your best interest to file or to wait for your H to file. Ask about options for equalization of assets. If the size of the legal spend is a concern ask what compromises you could / should make to streamline the process. And perhaps ask if they can recommend a lower priced colleague to take your case? OwnIt will confirm but all the lawyers in a geography and area of practice will all know one another and have opinions on each other
.
In my case my original pick for a lawyer was a junior partner in an established firm knowing that the junior would consult with the senior partner essentially giving me a pretty powerful team. I'm actually a firm believer as well that the most important person in the legal office is the secretary and it was the efficiency of the secretary getting back to me and setting up the appointment that got them my case. A well organized admin person will have your forms prepared and filed on time and they'll be right. They are your main contact person and will chase down the lawyer to do their job of giving opinions and sounding important in front of a judge.
Good luck!
Leah,
I am concerned because you were leaning in one direction, and now you're leaning in the other because of your son's feedback and because people pulled strings to get you an appointment with a fancy attorney.
You get one life and I think the most important piece of the decision to file for D is if it is what you want (or in some posters' stories, if it's a necessity for protection.)
So is this what you want? Not what others want for you to want, but what you want?
If you're uncertain and would just be going to the appointment to educate yourself, I think that's great. I just don't want you to be pressured to move forward unless that's what is right for you...
Leah,
I'm with Cadence. Having a little insight into your situation, there is nothing that yet sounds off bells in terms of you needing to rush out and do anything. I will be posting an update shortly on my own thread that shows things do change, as we would expect.
I'm sorry, but I don't see the need for the most expensive lawyer in town. I went against that route in hiring my own attorney. I found a solo that knows her stuff and is an ethical biller. When you go with the hotshot you will largely get an associate doing the work with the senior partner sticking his nose in now and again (and boy will you see the time on the bill). No one person is really going to know your case and be on top of it.
Make the appointment if it makes you comfortable to do so, but in the meantime keep shopping for a single person that is going to work on your case that you feel comfortable with and who understands your goals.
I have no idea on AL law, but I'd want to get in and talk to someone I trust.
Go to the American Academy of Matrimonial Lawyers and find someone in your area. These are folks who specialize in family law (do not go with an attorney who will help you with an auto accident, divorce, will and estate or criminal case). You want a specialist who knows their stuff and devotes their time to this practice. That way you are not paying for them to come up to speed and they can advise you up front.
Thanks everyone!
Andrew- This lawyer that I am getting an appointment with is the same one I consulted with back in January, and he (really his partner) has the best reputation here in town for divorces, so at least that eliminates my H being able to use him, since I've already had one consultation with him.
Cadence and Ownit- yes, admittedly my S did make me think more about what I need to do, but I fully expected that from him. He's a worrier, and I know wants to save me from future pain, and to see me financially protect myself. I think I am doing the logical, sensible thing in making the appointment, but then waiting a month to see him. That way there's much less chance of my filing being a "knee-jerk" reaction to the pain, and also my NOT filing, based on my feelings after seeing him. I just need more time. And that I have plenty of, thankfully.
Thanks for everyone's input! I value it and this place is a wonderful resource to get input from people who already know so much about your situation, but also people from all walks of life and personal experiences, who can offer from their perspective.
Leah, I saw your post to me in the other thread so popped over, first I will say I am in no way a D expert! I consulted with a L during my D but I am in a different state (TX) so what applies here may or may not apply there.
Also, I'm still struggling with the term "no-fault" divorce. I guess when I hear that, it makes me think that neither party is claiming that the other is in any way "at fault", but it's been explained to me that is not exactly true, that it's a misleading phrase. That if this were to go to court, for example, I could still claim that adultery caused the break up of this marriage (by H's own admission to adultery), and that the judge could choose to take that into consideration.
Here is what I was told about "no fault" states. In the old days, both parties would claim that the D was the other's fault and ask the court to find "in their favor". IE, they wanted more visitation, more money, etc. because the D was the fault of the other party. Here's the problem, let's say your H is having an affair. So you present that to the court as evidence that the D is his "fault". But then he comes back and says "well yes I had an A, but my wife NEVER had sex with me, was emotionally abusive and completely checked out as a wife and mother to our children." So whose fault is it now? You've heard the term "he said, she said" I'm sure, well that's where it comes from. The courts were bogged down listening to endless "evidence" and trying to decipher it to determine fault. In the end many states have said "you know what, we can't sort through all this stuff, so we're going to say that ALL divorces are due to BOTH spouses being EQUALLY at fault, so from now on we're looking at things strictly from a financial perspective."
So a "no fault" state has nothing to do with both spouses claiming the other isn't at fault, it is the STATE saying BOTH parties are at fault, and they won't even consider evidence that the D is one person's or the other's "fault". If you are in a no fault state then it is very likely that the judge will not consider adultery as an issue. It's not even on his radar. Now if you can present evidence of physical abuse that's another matter. That would be considered, especially in regards to visitation.
Leah, I just Googled "is Alabama a no fault divorce state" and there were some interesting articles, apparently Alabama has provisions for "no fault" divorce AND "fault-based". So in your case, the answer depends on which type of D you're going for. Adultery in a fault-based state can be considered and at the judge's discretion may affect the alimony amount. So it's definitely something you want to talk to your L about.
Also you asked if having sex with your H would affect the judge's decision, yes it very well could. Your's H's lawyer could argue that you "didn't care" about the affair because you continued to have sex with him, so if his affair was so harmful to you, why would you do that?" So tread carefully there!
Excellent information! Thank you SO much!
Hi Leah. Saw your post and wanted to chime in. When my husband first left I did get names and called a few lawyers. It actually made me feel a lot more secure in the process. The best part is that I was able to choose the lawyer I really liked should my husband pull the trigger or something transpired (was thinking OW pregnancy, which hasn't happened) where I needed to file, etc. Turns out, when 4 years later I received surprise divorce papers I had my lawyer lined-up. In the end I decided not to go with him as he had been promoted and handled very high level cases but he referred me to another firm with whom I am very happy. He was also a fallback if I decided to change attorneys. He is brilliant.
That said, it really helped having someone lined up. I also saw some attorneys who I thought my husband may use. Glad I did that as well as from that process I learned there are some weak ones and I felt even better about my choice. As it turns out my husbands attorney has a reputation for going to court (#££££) and that is the direction he has been leading my head in the sand husband. Knowledge is power, I hope.
Do what you feel is right. In my case things go up and down and I took a backseat to give myself a breather when I realised how financially my life was going to quickly change along with a huge move and new career. I needed time to start processing that.
You will know what is right for you. Trust yourself and know the risks so if you do make a mistake along the way you know that was a risk. If you are persuaded to do something and it doesn't work you will always have that doubt.
Wow, now here's an update.
After seeing H last Monday, as you all know, my heart took off on another of those famous rollercoaster rides.
He has gone back to texting every other day or so, kind of abrupt, like- "hope your week went well", which he texted Friday night at 11:20 PM.
WTF?
I was awake, so I texted back, not so great, I'm sick, but thanks for asking. (My neighbor keeps her 6 month old grandaughter, and she called me Friday morning in a panic and said she felt like she was going to faint, could I please come over and take the baby- so I did. We all thought it was food poisoning, but then later Friday, baby and I both came down with it- so now we think 24 hr stomach yucky thing.) Anyway, Saturday, he texted about 2 in afternoon and said just thought I would reach out and see if you're feeling better. I said "YES, so much better. And I took your advice, and I have a date tonight!" (He had said when he was here last week that I should date- I said, why? so it will make you feel like we are even?- and we kind of laughed about it.) WELL, my friends, his reaction stunned me!
He said "I AM SO JEALOUS I CAN'T STAND IT."
Then "Well, you go on your date and have fun and maybe I will see you sometime in the future."
LOL. It sounded like something I would have said to him back in January, coming from a place of huge hurt. I guess that's why I recognized it as that.
I texted back and said- well you sound pi$$ed, but I'm only doing exactly what you said you've done, and that I should do, which is moving on. You've always been my person, H, but you have replaced me with OW (and I called her by name), so it's time for me to move forward too.
There was more, but I can't remember it all, anyway, we went back and forth a bit, with him saying I don't know what you mean, etc.
Whatever.
I said ummmmmm..... OW, age 48, lives in NYC, etc. If you're in love with her, that's one thing, but if you are mixed up in something that is dangerous (more to that story from some things I've seen in his phone records that leads me to think he is in over his head, and that she may be a part of it- maybe some not so legal kinds of stuff), then just be very careful. I'd hate to see things go bad for you, even as we move toward this divorce.
This is what he texted back- "I AM IN LOVE WITH YOU, NOT OW, BUT I GUESS YOU ARE JUST NOT GOING TO SEE IT."
Again, WTF?
I realized he must be either drinking, or otherwise impaired, so I moved to end the conversation, since I was about to leave on my "date". I just said, you take care of yourself, and no hard feelings, right? Our splitting up was your choice, not mine, remember? Talk to you later.
He texted back this big OK emoji, then a line full of hearts, and then he CALLED MY PHONE. I didn't answer, then he texted "Sorry."
Then he texted, "Have fun on your date, and hopefully I will talk to you soon. Emoji wink."
THEN HE CALLED MY PHONE AGAIN. (I do think that one was by accident though. No one would be that stupid.) So of course, then he texts AGAIN and said "I am so sorry. I promise I did not mean to call you."
I did not respond to any of that last things. Then yesterday he called, and I was at the home place farm with awful service, so when I didn't answer, then he texted and said "I hate to bother you, but just wanted to make sure it was you that withdrew $100 from the account- not a problem if you did, just making sure it was you since you don't normally do that." That really didn't make sense, and I think he was just temp checking after his weird behavior the night before.
I just answered, Yes it was me. I'm at the farm so bad cell service.
I don't expect to hear from him for a while. I'm sure he is ashamed of letting himself be too transparent with his feelings. But that is just the craziest interaction we have had in months.
Still moving toward my Sept. 13 appointment with attorney. Still an interesting ride getting there. I will stay NC.
PS- It was more of a group outing than an actual "DATE", but he doesn't need to know that, right? Sure set him off. Plus, it was huge fun. Doing it again this next weekend! Cute guy too, so there's that.:)
Other people know better than me, leahsue, just take care please to stay off the rollercoaster if it makes you queasy?
Hi Leah,
You are so sweet! I think your H knows that.
I , and I may be the minority who knows, think you were too nice!!
I don't want to come off harsh as I'm probably projecting my own emotions from my situation BUT I think after you told him you were going on a date and he responded the two texts that he was jealous and maybe see you in the future that the conversation should have been DONE. Like you could have said... thanks H have a great night!
and then left it at that.
Don't let him into your heart and your feelings. He's lost that spot. He may earn in back but don't just give it to him. Don't let him know all your thoughts and feelings right now. He's not in a place to take it in.
I hope this didn't come off wrong ... I'm glad you had a good time! Next time way less words! Haha
Yeah, I think you're right T. I just felt so empowered by his finally letting his feelings show that I felt almost generous in how I was able to treat him. I've SO been where he was that night. Trying to come across as I so don't care......
No words from me now. NC- and it doesn't even feel difficult to do that. So if nothing else good came from that, I'm thankful for at least that.
Also, it strikes me as hilarious for YOU TO TELL SOMEONE- USE LESS WORDS. I hope you know that was said with love. You crack me up the way it takes you 6 paragraphs to get a point across. That's what makes you so lovable and why so many people follow your thread.
(((((( T )))))))
AND.... I'm so pumped! My S35 and his partner have invited me to go to Lake Placid with them for Thanksgiving, and I just booked my flight. Now that's what I call G. A. L.
Is that feedback for me, Leah? You're SO right! Imagine how impossible it must have been for my MLC H!
There you go, a new goal for me...LOL...I'll borrow the feedback because I think the other T is MUCH less wordy!
Great job, Leah. And you're right about T. I also have never been accused of being too brief!
I think you did great, and I'm happy you got some confirmation that this isn't easy for him. I agree with T's suggestion of ending it a great deal sooner, rather than get into the back and forth.
He knows you are friendly and approachable, so leave him wanting. Give him the gift of smacking himself on the forehead for saying too much.
When in doubt, don't reply and come here and let us know what's going on. You can always reply to him in time, but you can't take it back once it's sent.
Overall, I think you did a pretty good job!
P.S. Hmmmm, you will be near-ish to me for Thanksgiving
When in doubt, don't reply and come here and let us know what's going on. You can always reply to him in time, but you can't take it back once it's sent.
I was going to suggest that Leah drop a tiny hint about that nagging STD that was recently acquired. I guess that's not really DB, but it could be a lot of fun. No?
LOL to everyone's comments! Doodler, you never fail to deliver!
And although I was speaking to T about wordiness, in all honesty, the posters I look to first are always the wordiest- (is that a word?) T, Treasur, Cadence, and even 25 love to do some talking. And I can't get enough!!! Sandi too, but she doesn't post much to me. I love reading her thoughts to other people though.
Agree with advice- I'd much rather H be the one smacking himself on the forehead for saying too much, than ME.
Cadence, my boys will be attending the figure skating Olympics competition in Lake Placid, but that's not so much my "thing". I'm going along to do some sight-seeing on my own, so I'm definitely open for a meet up if it's do-able. We will fly in to Burlington on Thanksgiving Day, then take a rental car to Lake Placid and be there until Sunday afternoon, rental car back to Burlington, hotel, then fly out Monday morning. Give it some thought! I'd love to meet you.
That's even easier, then. If I stay in town for the holiday, we will definitely meet up!
Leah, I am again, trying to zip my lips and refrain from 2by4s (I said trying) I do get tired of being the Debbie Downer around here :-( I just don't understand what you are doing and why.
He left you, was selfish, lied, kept stringing you along while having an A, and now he is flirting and playing games!?! Are you okay with this? I mean, I am trying to understand why you even had drinks and that flirty date with him (while planning a D) and now you want him to be jealous of you? ... I am so confused! I feel like this is some high school drama that I can't quite keep up with ... Okay I guess the 2by4 slipped out. Sorry! lol. So instead I will pose some questions:
1. What are your goals with this M? or D?
2. What are you doing from your side to achieve those goals?
3. What are you communicating to your H about what you want?
4. What do you need from him in order to have an R with him? ... Or do you simply want him to desire you ....
5. How are you communicating those needs?
He seems conflicted, selfish, and not sure how to proceed. .... The thing is, you can't control anything that he does/says and you can't mind read. You can however teach him how you deserve to be treated. Right now the message you are sending is that he can cheat, come, then go, text, or not text, and then he can just decide he may (or may not) want to be M so you "some day," and you will probably be available either way to have some fun and drinks by the pool ... chit. Another 2by4. Sorry. Okay I am just going to submit this and not look back .....
Wow, yeah Blu, that was a pretty hard hit.
I'll give it some thought. I really don't see how his working his way back toward me is any different than any WAS or whatever the acronym is for the ones who leave us, starting to come back around. Most of them have cheated, lied, done all the things my H has done, and yet I'm not sure why you've singled me out to say I'm doing this DB thing wrong by having hope of a future relationship with him.
I'll give your questions some thought and respond a little later.
I'm sorry. Maybe that could have been worded better ... I promise though that I did not single you out; I would have posted the same thing to anyone here. I also am okay with taking some 2by4s myself--so please, whack away :-)
If you have read my posts, you know I take a very hard line with all walkaways, waywards, MLCs, cheaters--whatever you want to call them--including my own H! I feel that we cannot nice them back, tempt them, or allow the games that they play. I firmly believe that they do not deserve attention until they show us someone that is worthy of our time. We can detach, GAL, 180, etc, but ultimately, we focus on us and only them when they show us a person that has started to change. I think it takes time to see those changes.
I feel that we teach others how to treat us. When my H--who also lied, cheated, and left me for OW--starting coming back around, I did not allow him to just walk back in my life. He really hurt me. A lot. I felt that I had to protect myself from this person that I already knew could (and did) hurt me. There were some conditions that needed to be met before I could determine that he was safe. My idea of being a light house is shining brightly, but from a distance, and one that they can see but not up close. They need to work their way over.
For me (and again, I can only advise people based on what I know), I needed to see that he was sorry for hurting me, that I could trust him (at least a little bit initially), and that he had changed his ways. If I wasn't sure that he had ended it with OW--and could prove that he meant it--then there would be no letting my guard down, flirting, or opening up the idea of us. I showed him that I valued myself more than I valued the M.
So again, I am sorry if that stung. I have no reason to be here to make anyone feel bad. I am only here telling people what I see based on what I believe to be true. ... You deserve someone who knows your worth and is committed to being honest and good to you. I don't want your H to think he can come and go as he pleases, and I think he should show you some remorse and integrity. I think you deserve that.
Blu
I'm hesitant to even put this out there...... but he called tonight and asked if he can fly down this weekend to see me. I told him I'd have to give it some thought.
Whoa... I wish I had some advice but I'm not sure how I would approach this.
It's good that you told him you needed time to think about it. You definitely don't want to come across as too eager.
I find it ironic that as soon as you go on a date, he suddenly makes a move. I question his motive. Does he genuinely want to start making amends or does he simply not want any other man to have you?
Keep your guard up, Leah. Sorry I couldn't be of more help.
Does he genuinely want to start making amends or does he simply not want any other man to have you?.
I think that's the million dollar question. And the only way I know of to find out the answer, is to spend some time with him, have some conversations, and begin to see if I have enough energy left in me to want to form a new R with this man.
I'm hoping some of this will seem more clear to me in the morning. It's been a long, eventful day, and I so want to take this slow and guard my heart. I see my IC Wednesday morning, so that's good.
Blu, I do sincerely thank you for your going to bat for me. I know you only have my best interest at heart. I probably took the 2x4 harder than I normally would have, had I not been so very tired, both mentally and physically tonight. Going to get some much needed sleep now. And take this one step at a time.
Good 'time to think' response, leah...do what you feel is right but...keep your healthy boundaries in place and zero expectations, I guess?
If he does fly down, where will he stay? Can you see him for some of the weekend but not all of it, so it isn't overwhelming for you both?
Leah, I'm happy and I'm skeptical. I think his intention is to make sure you're not spending it with someone else.
Good work on following your instinct to ask for time to think about it.
First, decide if you want to see him. That's decision #1.
Secondly, if you decide yes to the above, decide if you want to see him this weekend. That's decision #2.
Third, if you decide yes to the above, decide how much time you will give him. For example, maybe you spend the day Saturday with him, but you have plans Friday evening, Saturday evening, and Sunday (it is short notice, after all.)
One thing I know is that, if his intention is to come back to you, you can't let him back easily. He destroyed trust, and he's going to have to work to show you that you can trust him.
I also know you can't show your pain until you hear from him a commitment to working on the M. It's just not relevant until then. You can state it in a matter of fact way, but you cannot let loose with sadness and anger. It's not the time for emotions. Pop those Xanax, girl.
I'm looking forward to hearing how you're feeling. I think we can advise you better when we know.
Blu, my first impression of what you wrote last night was that you were advising Leah from a very black and white place.
I don't think showing him kindness and spending time with H was weak on Leah's part. I think she was strong! She essentially said "Yup, buddy, while you've been spending time with trash, I've been here, beautiful, strong, loving, funny and kind. I'm still Leah and I always have been."
To me, that's what her time with her H was about. Leah showing H she'd reclaimed her identity and showing H she's fine without him. She held up boundaries with him. She didn't fall to pieces. She was
strong.
I totally agree with you that it takes time to see changes. However, how will Leah know with her circumstances? They are long distance and they don't share minor children, so she can't just sit back and let time do it's thing because there is no regular interaction to see the pattern you're telling her to look for. You had children with your H, so it could happen over a long period of time and without having to actively choose to see him or talk to him.
I don't see how Leah can see evidence of that consistency from her H without being somewhat responsive to him, due to her circumstances. The only way her H could start working his way back is contacting her, exactly what we're seeing him do (though we don't yet know his intentions.)
I also think that WH/MLCers are not going to throw it all out there without some indications that it is safe to do so, since shame is such a powerful driver with them. Those who share kids might be able to demonstrate receptiveness on a regular basis, but Leah doesn't have that opportunity. When he starts sniffing around, she's got to decide how to respond, because it could be the start of that consistency. And there's no other way for her to know.
I think Leah's situation requires her to be
more receptive than those who share minor children, just because there is no opportunity for regular interaction that could allow her to passively observe him.
I'd be concerned if I saw that she was emotional or didn't have boundaries, but she's doing really stellar with those things! Her H asked to come see her and she didn't immediately jump on the opportunity, and that's a great thing. She's protecting herself, which I think is the common thing that all of us want for her.
Fair points well made, cadence - I'm with you. It's a zero expectations opportunity and leah is strong enough to do it x
I don't see how Leah can see evidence of that consistency from her H without being somewhat responsive to him, due to her circumstances. The only way her H could start working his way back is contacting her, exactly what we're seeing him do (though we don't yet know his intentions.)
Cadence, thank you for your response, both to Blu and to me. I've given it all much thought throughout the night. I still have not decided whether to see him this weekend. I DO want to see him, but it is short notice, and I want to be sure I'm mentally prepared to keep my boundaries firm.
One interesting and seemingly honest thing he said last night, kind of in reference to your quote above-
He opened the dialogue last night with a text, asking how my trip to the farm went, if we went alligator shining, that he wants to come soon and break my BIL's new bass weight record, etc., I waited a while before responding to his text, but then I just answered briefly how it went. I also said- I put the $ back in the account since I had only needed it b/c I found myself without my other debit cards that day.
His response was- "I told you it was fine. And I knew it was you. I guess I just was looking for a reason to reach out to you."
I said "You don't need a
reason to reach out to me."
He said, "But I want a reason."
When I didn't respond, that's when he called and asked if he could come see me this weekend.
I found it interesting that he was honest about wanting to reach out, but again, that shame and testing to make sure it was OK, which has been his MO since BD, was still so strong. In some ways, (and not everyone will agree here, but that's OK- just calling it like I see it with him) I believe he is as afraid of reaching out to me, as I was of his NOT reaching out to me at all, back in the beginning.
I think for now, just treating him gently, letting him pursue, but letting him know it's safe to approach me slowly, is going to be my plan. When I do eventually see him again, I will need to see his commitment, or lack thereof, to building a new R., along with his regret, apologies, etc. But for now, I'm just breathing slowly, taking care of me, and turning my face toward the sun trying to be the best Leah ever. And I can get to that place, with him or without him.
You're welcome, Leah. I see a big improvement in you and your resiliency, and things are different for those of us who don't share kids. In the same way MLC vanishers are frustrating, not sharing kids means there's no natural opportunities for interacting.
(I don't envy those who do share minor kids; just like I didn't envy you when H was in frequent contact. It must be challenging in a different way.)
I DO want to see him, but it is short notice, and I want to be sure I'm mentally prepared to keep my boundaries firm.
Okay, so you do want to see him. It sounds like the lingering issue is when.
If you feel this is too short notice, you might tell him that. Or you might say that you only have 12pm-5pm on Saturday open because of the short notice, so maybe he wants to try another weekend. Just some suggestions. You'll have to find a balance between being receptive but also with boundaries.
Is there anything you'd need to hear from him before you made a decision about him coming down? I'm asking so we can advise you.
My other gut reactions to this are that he should not be let back easily, because that may lead him to continue to take you for granted after the honeymoon period ends. Second, that he should not be given the impression that you are available to him as soon as he wants you, given his choices since December. If he wants to see you, maybe be available for half of the time unless you reach a point where you both want to work to reconcile.
Third, he shouldn't be trying to limit you dating (if you want to date).
(To be clear, I don't think you should say those things to him in the above paragraph. If you agree, you'll be showing him these things with your actions.)
I am not seeing things in black and white and in no point in my post did I call her weak, so please do not make assumptions about me. One of the reasons I was drawn to her thread initially is because she has a solid head on her shoulders and a positive, bright outlook overall. I just don't see how it serves any of us to try and stick up for one another, and I think it actually creates a divide between posters. We are all here for the same reasons--to not only show support for one another, but to offer advice. Then we are free to accept or reject that advice as it suits us.
The assumption that I had frequent interactions with my H because we have children is only partly true. The last several months before he came back around we had very minimal contact and I did not see him. We only had occasional businesslike emails about the kids and bills, and otherwise I avoided seeing him and stayed in my room when he picked up and dropped off the kids. I even had a bday party for one of the kids with my family and friends and told him that he was not to come. Again, IMO when the S is wayward/selfish I think it is important to have strong boundaries until they show you a person that can be trusted. I fully acknowledge I am more extreme with some of my advise and that is partly because 1. that is what worked for me, and 2. I have not yet read of a sitch here where the LBS was able to nice/friend their way back to the M. When that happens, often the S loses respect and may pull back again.
Leah, your sitch is different than mine in several ways, however that does not change my advice. I haven't read DR in several years however I recall MWD discusses the importance of writing out lists of goals; that is why I listed those 5 questions in my last post. Perhaps that could help you organize your thoughts/feelings by making a list of goals, despite what he is doing and saying? I don't want him to get in the drivers seat and then you lose site of what is important to you; you are still vulnerable after all you have been through.
It can be confusing and a whirlwind of emotions when they start coming back around and it is hard to know what to do. I can certainly relate to that and I remember it very clearly! On the one hand there is this a sense of hope and relief that they are coming back around, however it is mixed with fear and ambivalence because we know this person can (and has) really hurt us. That is why I think they need so slowly earn their way back, even if it takes longer, which can also give them more time to think and get their head back on straight.
I actually do not think he has any "bad" or "hidden" intentions. He may not even fully understand what his intentions are at this point! It does seem as if he is second guessing himself, that he misses you, and that he wants desperately to try and reconnect with you. I can only imagine it would be very tempting to see him and know where this is going. You have proven without a doubt that the pursuer-distancer dynamic is in full effect. In some ways, you have him where you want him. Not to play games, but I do think of the our goals as a LBS is to keep ourselves in the distancer role.
Here is the thing though, you have all the time in the world! If you see him this weekend, or next, or next month, well just make sure it is under your terms. Every poster that is piecing has said that they should have taken is slower and not one (that I have come across) has said that they should have moved faster. There are so many, many layers of complicated history and emotions now, that naturally it takes time for them to unfold.
So my most important piece of advise to you is protect yourself and your heart from this man. Teach him how you deserve to be treated. As tempting as it can be (and I know it was for me) to start seeing him and possibly even reconciling, it has to be done with armor on. The armor is not only there to protect you, but to show him that you value yourself more than to just let him walk back in. He has to show you someone that is worthy of you now.
Blu
Thank you Blu.
Just for the record, I don't see you as "attacking me", although I admit I was pretty raw last night and it stung. That's not to say I didn't need to hear it though. The value to me in a place like this is the very essence of what can sometimes be painful- the TRUTH. It's so much easier to see someone heading for disaster, when you're standing as a bystander rather than driving the boat into the iceberg.
I also don't see Cadence as "defending me" so much as I see her coming from the position of having no children together, and virtually no reason to ever run across our S again. I think that is frightening to both she and I, in thinking about that possibility.
We need to all be reminded (and I think this is a perfect example-this conversation we are having the last 24 hours) that every person who makes their way to this place is hurting, as is most every other person we see every day. We have no idea of people's struggles, just b/c they put on a brave front. Although it's true we all bring that pain to this table from different walks of life and situations, the common denominator for us all is HURT. We all have so much to offer each other, and I believe, for the most part, it's a safe place to fall for each of us.
Thank you both for putting so much time and thought into your posts. (And to Ownit- who wouldn't even chime in on here last night, but called me on the phone and talked me off the ledge too!) What blessings to have friends like all of you.
Usually the things we need to hear the most are the very things we are struggling to convince ourselves to do because they FEEL right, but usually are counter-productive to our end goal.
To be continued......
PS- I kind of hate to hit my IC with all this in the morning- I think I'll make some notes to give her a timely re-cap, so I don't end up catching her up and using my whole hour. I'm going to need some of her wise guidance, and not let myself talk the whole time. There we go again with ALL. THESE. WORDS. Too bad Jeep's not around anymore to say all this ^ with one of his clipped sentences. LOL.
1. What are your goals with this M? or D?
Right now I don't have goals for the current M, nor goals for a D. Right now my goal for us is a brand new, better, stronger, more communicative new relationship. I'm not re-committed to the R, and I don't know how he feels about re-commitment either, but as long as I know I'M not committed, it doesn't really matter to me if he is or is not.
2. What are you doing from your side to achieve those goals?
I'm learning to be MORE- in everything. What I mean by that is more fun for myself, (and less negative self-talk), more spontaneity in life in general (less planning and more go by the seat of my pants, spur of the moment, open for new things), more open to bigger love, (and I don't mean with him- certainly he'd be included in that, but specifically I mean bigger love with my children and their partners-which I've re-discovered since S), bigger love with my mom and sister, bigger love with my step-children, bigger love with his family (and less resentment about their closeness that at times can feel exclusive to me), just a bigger heart for people and less fear of rejection. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on to help me achieve these goals. I'm in IC as often as she can book me. Continuing to read this forum, and see how other people learn and grow from this same type of heart-ache.
3. What are you communicating to your H about what you want?
Absolutely nothing.
4. What do you need from him in order to have an R with him? ... Or do you simply want him to desire you ....
A desire on his part to begin a new relationship with me. Explanation of who OW is, and what role she plays in his life, and what plans he has for NC with her. That's a given (for me.) A welcome mat at our home in NJ, and the step-son's friend GONE to live in his own place. Of course, him to desire me, but more than that.... because once that need is satisfied, there has to be more. I want to see a desire in him to enjoy being with me the way we used to enjoy each other, before things fell apart.
5. How are you communicating those needs?
Not at all.... (yet).
These are my answers as honestly as I know them, Blu. Clearly, I need to communicate them to him at some point. IMO, though, these are not things that can be discussed openly and honestly except face to face.
I am not seeing things in black and white and in no point in my post did I call her weak, so please do not make assumptions about me.
I assume you are talking to me? Hi Blu, my name is Cadence.
I didn't accuse you of these things. The first was presented as my perception (which is fallible and limited to me), and the second is totally out of left field. By stating that I felt that Leah was strong, I was not implying that you said she was weak.
I just don't see how it serves any of us to try and stick up for one another, and I think it actually creates a divide between posters.
I seem to have really offended you and I apologize for that. I meant no harm by offering what I saw about Leah's situation. I'm sorry if you saw it that way as it was not intended.
At the same time, I feel like I'm having to defend myself and I'm not sure why, which feels incredibly divisive and unwelcoming.
I also don't see Cadence as "defending me" so much as I see her coming from the position of having no children together, and virtually no reason to ever run across our S again. I think that is frightening to both she and I, in thinking about that possibility.
Yes, exactly. I read the post and thought "Well, how is she supposed to see the consistency from him without opening up to communication that will not happen otherwise?"
A few of us have been talking about vanishers and not sharing children and how it feels like more of a hurdle because there is absolutely no information coming in and you do not get to interact regularly.
Essentially, the risk feels like if you don't respond to what looks like tentative feelers, you may never know what the intention was. And that feels very frustrating, because there is no way to judge someone's intentions in the early stages. After so much pain, who wants to be open to something less than clear-cut? Of course it would be preferable to sit back and wait for consistency, but we also have to remember that everyone's circumstances are different. And I really don't see what you could have done differently if your goal is to potentially save your M.
This is all that I was trying to express.
Although it's true we all bring that pain to this table from different walks of life and situations, the common denominator for us all is HURT. We all have so much to offer each other, and I believe, for the most part, it's a safe place to fall for each of us.
I agree.
Hi all
Think we might be in danger of all agreeing vehemently! We all respond from our own experience of this horrific stuff - Blu has wisdom from knowing what reconnection feels like, and how hard piecing is. Cadence knows the limited opportunity to communicate and the desire to do it while keeping your soul safe. I know...gosh, not much...the pain of a vanisher and the uncomfortable truth of what severe depression looks like in an MLC spouse so everyone hurts.
Leah, your goals (esp 2.) look great and they were great questions from Blu.And fab that you're seeing your IC.
I guess I'm wondering what MORE Leah would like to do...what would be the fun, spontaneous, open way to respond? About what you want rather than thinking about what he may or may not bring to the party?
1. What are your goals with this M? or D?
Right now I don't have goals for the current M, nor goals for a D. Right now my goal for us is a brand new, better, stronger, more communicative new relationship. I'm not re-committed to the R, and I don't know how he feels about re-commitment either, but as long as I know I'M not committed, it doesn't really matter to me if he is or is not.
2. What are you doing from your side to achieve those goals?
I'm learning to be MORE- in everything. What I mean by that is more fun for myself, (and less negative self-talk), more spontaneity in life in general (less planning and more go by the seat of my pants, spur of the moment, open for new things), more open to bigger love, (and I don't mean with him- certainly he'd be included in that, but specifically I mean bigger love with my children and their partners-which I've re-discovered since S), bigger love with my mom and sister, bigger love with my step-children, bigger love with his family (and less resentment about their closeness that at times can feel exclusive to me), just a bigger heart for people and less fear of rejection. I'm reading everything I can get my hands on to help me achieve these goals. I'm in IC as often as she can book me. Continuing to read this forum, and see how other people learn and grow from this same type of heart-ache.
3. What are you communicating to your H about what you want?
Absolutely nothing.
4. What do you need from him in order to have an R with him? ... Or do you simply want him to desire you ....
A desire on his part to begin a new relationship with me. Explanation of who OW is, and what role she plays in his life, and what plans he has for NC with her. That's a given (for me.) A welcome mat at our home in NJ, and the step-son's friend GONE to live in his own place. Of course, him to desire me, but more than that.... because once that need is satisfied, there has to be more. I want to see a desire in him to enjoy being with me the way we used to enjoy each other, before things fell apart.
5. How are you communicating those needs?
Not at all.... (yet).
These are my answers as honestly as I know them, Blu. Clearly, I need to communicate them to him at some point. IMO, though, these are not things that can be discussed openly and honestly except face to face.
Leah, I think this is a great start. And I so appreciate your honesty :-) There are no easy answers in love! There is something to be said about organizing your thoughts and feelings on paper (or computer, haha). That way when H comes at you--text, call, or is unpredictable--you have more preparation of how you want to respond. I recall when my H started coming around initially, I did not know what to do or say. Sometimes he would simply be temp checking me and other times he would tell me that he wanted to see me, talk to me, missed me, etc, and I was so confused! Here I was still trying to master DB and the 37 rules, so when this came up, I was honestly flabbergasted at how to respond. It started to feel so different than how he had been for the last 10 months, but I wanted to keep my composure.
I am out of town so I don't have a copy of DR, but I do recall her talking about writing down goals in the book. I also think that Psysara addressed this in her posts. If I recall, the goals are 1. things that are in your locus of control, and 2. things with measurable results. The idea is that we can still have goals for anything that only addresses our own part in the R. Some of them can be very small and simple and some can be larger and only measured over time. There is also something empowering about the personal goals because they are for us and the focus is not on them. We are trying to remain detached by opening up the idea of letting them back and it's a delicate balance.
So if I were to answer my own questions at the time my H started coming back around, here is what I might have written down:
For example #1. What are your goals with this M? or D?
1. To continue to not initiate contact, however when H initiates contact, to be responsive, listen, and validate only for the next several weeks.
2. During communication with H, to avoid highly emotional topics, heavy R talks, and if I feel triggered to allow myself time and space before answering, including telling him that I am not ready to talk about that right now.
3. Goal is to start attending MC weekly, if H agrees and continues to want to work on any type of R with me.
4. That I will not work on piecing or restoring the M with him if he is not willing to attend weekly MC and if he is not consistently showing remorse.
5. To initiate D process if we are not actively piecing by the end of the calendar year.
So I was not organized about writing things down, but these were some of my initial goals that I went by. I think it might have helped me to have lists going, because there were so many times that I was caught off guard or emotionally triggered and then later I would wish that I had responded differently. There are no 37 rules for piecing, however I think the 37 rules do still apply when they initially come back around, because as you say, you are still not sure of his intentions. When in doubt we can never go wrong with letting them pursue us and initiate contact, listening and validating, and creating safe boundaries for ourselves.
Not sure any if any of that helps, but it's just an idea to help you when you are feeling stuck!
Blu
Thanks, Blu! I've printed out your post, pulled the old worn DB book back out, and also Sandi's rules. Crash course before the weekend!
I agreed to see him this weekend, but told him I have a few conditions, which he readily agreed to.
I just had a GREAT sessions with my IC. She had a good point. When I was telling her about the playful afternoon we had last week, I said how good it had felt to just enjoy each other without trying to figure out all the hard stuff, especially without a counselor to guide us in that discussion. She said you won't believe how many couples sit right here, struggling to stay married, because they've lost that playfulness. She said I actually give homework to a lot of them to try and bring some of that back, because that's what helps make a marriage work- to still enjoy each other's company. She strongly suggested I use this weekend to be light, have fun, enjoy him, and save the hard stuff for MC, if we get to that point. No need to try and drag it all out and solve it over a three day visit, with no professional help. Plus, if the weekend isn't what we both want in terms of beginning a new relationship, not sure the junk from the last 8 months would matter.
I know there are going to be hundreds of opinions about how to handle the weekend. (There already are, between this forum, and my close friends and sister.) In the end, I just have to put them all together and pick out a plan that works for me.
Now if he CANCELS, then that's a whole new story line! I'm not even going to go there for now.
Moving forward to better days, no matter what the weekend brings!
You've got it, Leah. More Leah, more play. No opinions from me xx
Is that your shortest post ever, Treasur? LOL.
Don't hold back, now. ((((( Treasur ))))) I love ALL OPINIONS, ALL THE TIME. Otherwise, how can one make informed, well-thought out decisions, right?
I've been traveling for two days. Not fun. Glad to be back home even if I am going to get kicked out on an hour's notice.
I am happy that you are letting him come, and hope that he shows up this time. I think you should focus on fun, but I hope that you are not planning to jump back into intimacy too quickly. I fear if you do it will be a rug sweeping with no resolution and you will have blessed this behavior.
I would show him the Leah he is missing but make sure he understands that he doesn't get all of her until he does the work.
*shoving breakfast into my pie hole while getting ready for work*
I'm only gonna ditto everything every one else said. If he shows, enjoy the weekend with your "boy toy" lol. Think of this as a 1st time date and whatever happens, happens. No expectations, including expecting him to show on time or even show. Some people are just flakes, ya know?
Plan B is important, what do you have planned if he flakes?
I would love to do that. I will be at Starbucks at Southcenter Mall tomorrow at 10AM. I will wear an orange Auburn University shirt so you can't miss me.
WAIT---- how did I miss this^^? War Damn Eagle!
Yeah, I'm an Auburn grad...
I'm buying another sweatshirt this month. (I get the blue ones with orange trim).
Can't wait for the season to start.
Wacky small world...
Leah,
where'd you go? Don't leave us hanging
Yes I updated my stuff, too. I'm no hypocrite!
War Eagle - I went to Auburn b/c h was there in veterinary school - and of course I followed him. We married while I was still in college- and Auburn was affordable. So No regrets there...
Oh yay, "no regrets ^^^there"! It's nice to be able to write that.
Hey everyone!
Just a quick check in....... it's been a crazy few days. H is still here. The weekend went well, and he asked if he could stay a few more days. As of right now, he is flying out tomorrow night. Right now he's outside building a privacy fence around the pool pump.
I'll write much more after he leaves. I'll just say there have been a lot of hard conversations, a lot of crying on both sides, but much more laughter than tears. We've enjoyed each other and been playful and easy most of the time. No promises from either of us right now, more like a whole new relationship just starting up. I have no expectations about the future, and that's by my own choice right now. He does seem more like the old H, and there have been some moments when we've looked hard in each others' eyes, and just cried. He talks about loving me, etc. but I don't reciprocate yet, b/c I honestly don't know how I feel about him. For now, I'm enjoying his company and that's enough for today.
And 25, WAR DAMN EAGLE! Got my undergrad degree there (H is actually from Auburn-grew up there) and we attend almost every single game. HUGE fans!!
Go, More Leah! Thrilled at your cool bada**ery
Sure you'll be exhausted after he goes, lots of emotion, so make sure to take some TLC time for you to recharge x
Well, not sure where to begin......
Treasur- you nailed it when you said I'd be emotionally exhausted. I am feelings things down straight into my bones that I can't even identify.
The good things- it was easy, it felt natural, there were a lot of hard conversations, but I'm pretty certain when I say that we both were right where we wanted to be, for that week. He didn't say all the things I guess I wish he had said, but OTOH, he said some things I totally wasn't expecting. I'm still sorting through things in my head. I don't know what either of us thinks the future will look like, but I'm sure that he expects a future with us together, maybe more so than I. I'm convinced that the months apart weren't all about me, or even OW, but more about things in him. Those things were by-products, albeit hurtful ones. He did not want to leave, and (as I type this I'm even surprised that this next part is true)- I was ready for him to leave. I'm not sure why. Maybe b/c I knew it couldn't last, not like the kind of vacation it felt like, and I knew I would miss him when he left, but also a part of me realized that I LIKE living alone, SOMETIMES. Like I said, I'm still very confused about some of the feelings I had during the week, and looking forward to sorting some more this next week with IC.
The bad things- I feel an emptiness about the future because my feelings for him were brought back with such force. I didn't expect that. I thought I could be easy and fun, with no expectations, and I PULLED THAT OFF. I'm 100% sure of that. But some of that was "acting AS IF"..... and since that does not always ring true to our inner selves, I've had some separation pain that I wasn't looking to feel. Today is better than yesterday, but I had a lot of tears yesterday. I am going to double up on my GAL these next few weeks. That's all that takes this lonely for him away. But the GOOD THING about all this ^ bad part- he has no idea. The day he left, he knew I had plans to go out that night to a happy hour. He heard me on the phone making plans. He kept hinting about who it was, etc., but I was very mysterious and just said going to happy hour. He said are you taking an Uber and I said no getting picked up. So when I dropped him off at the airport he called about 5 minutes later to say what a great week..... etc. Then at his layover, he called but I was out. Then he texted a few times and I could tell by the tone that he was drinking while waiting on his next flight, b/c it turned from all sweet to, oh so I know you're out having fun tonight, I wish I was still there, well, you have fun and be careful...... then called two more times, then texted again. I never answered any of them until yesterday morning and said, I told you I was going out, I did not have my phone, and where I go is no longer your issue. I had a great time with you, but life goes on.... something like that. Nice, but he got the point. He called last night and apologized. So that's where we are- no promises from either of us about the future, but he adamantly said he does not want a divorce, and asked for more time before I decide to file. Neither of us committed to marriage, but neither committed to divorce yet either. There's no doubt we love each other. I guess we just both have to decide what we want individually, then see if we can make it work so that we both reach our individual goals.
When I start to feel sad or miss him, I remember that he does not know I'm feeling that way, nor should he, and that empowers me to continue to GAL, detach from the outcome, and enjoy every single day that I've been given.
(He just texted me and said "I wish I was there.") As long as the tables stay turned that way, I think I'm OK for now.
Leah,
It sounds like it went as well as could be expected. The feelings will settle down I am sure. None of us knows what life will throw at us. Take it day by day and focus on your own happiness and either way you will be ok. Remember to live what you told him, that just as he is out there doing things you don't know about, that you are doing the same.
You did well, leah, really you did.
Now, breathe. Enjoy the fact that the playing field is a bit more level. Journal or vent here. And more happy hours sound like a great idea!
Thanks Treasur, but I don't know if I did myself any favors. I think in some ways I was more at peace with accepting that it was over. It seems it was easier to GAL a week ago. Now I just miss him. I hope Ownit is right, and the feeling part will begin to subside. The only thing that gives me any peace right now is the fact that he doesn't know I miss him like this, and that seems almost so backward from true honest living. I guess it really is all just a game.
Also I'm finding it harder to reach out to my "support" people, because it's almost like they don't want to intrude, and I don't feel like talking about the visit anyway, so I find myself not reaching out. In many ways, it was easier to reach out to people when the heartbreak was so evident-somehow I felt justified in reaching out for help with loneliness. Now it just feels selfish. Such crazy emotions.
Tomorrow I'm promising myself to get back out there and be thankful for each moment.
There is a book that people mention on here that has a good section on pursuit and distance. I recall that when I read it, something in there made a lot of sense. I'm paraphrasing and will probably be way off. I think it talked about how the backing away feels like a game, completely unnatural, and "fake", particularly to co-dependents. I know that it is true of me. We are so used to rushing in before the other person has to do anything or feel anything that it seems so artificial to back off, but I think that is something we have to work on to give the other person the space they need to step forward. Try to think of it more like that.
Leah, I think it feels weird because a) it's almost like dealing with a teenager and b) it is a weird situation to be in with someone we knew for so long. And lots of mixed emotions.
OwnIt's advice sounds on the button to me...stay the course
Hi Leah,
I haven't been on the site recently (out GAL) but just checked in to see how you were doing.
I'm so glad the visit went well. I can understand the mixed feelings and the hurt. Just go very easy on yourself.
I will say that the power dynamic has very clearly shifted, and I'm thrilled about that. I think with men, especially, it's so important to remember that we are the prize and let them pursue us.
He was pursuing pretty hard. That boundary you set may have him backing off a bit, though. Don't take it personally.
Have you been in touch in recent days?
leah,
not sure if this heads to another thread but I'll post a quick note here.
glad to see the dynamic shift. But men have a harder time living alone (and I share your fondness for it, btw. It's a surprise for me but it's true. I like parts of being alone to the point where I'm not sure I'd live with a man again for a long time, if ever)
BUT if you are considering a recon - down the road - won't the distance issue need to be addressed?
Because no matter what he says or does or thinks or feels, the long distance took a toll on the m.
Believe me, I relate. While I was faithful, I don't think h was - and he sure wasn't at the end.
Another thing I know now is that I do not want a long distance r with anyone, if it's more than a few months. Why would I? I just left a long distance marriage in which I was lonely more than I realized.
Just saying it would probably be more appealing to you both, for it to work well, if you know there was a light at the end of that tunnel.
War Eagle!
25--I've already had that same conversation with Leah. I think it is 100% true. My H's infidelities were when he was living away from home, as I believe your H's were. Men can't handle it the way we can in my experience (apologies to those of you who can). It will definitely need to be addressed, and addressed early on.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2758802#Post2758802