Divorcebusting.com
Hi,

I have been reading this forum for some time now to learn, but never really thought about posting. However, I feel that I need support in my DB’ing since everybody close to me want me to move on.

My wife came home from a 1 week trip together with our D4 and MIL in the beginning of May. The first thing she said to me was “I want a divorce”. I was chocked and started crying, saying “no” over and over again. I could not believe that it had come to this. W asked me to move out of our house so she could live there with our D. She suggested that I moved to a nearby city (50 km) where I work and that I could get to see our D 2 days/week. The next day W and D moved out from our house temporarily to her parents to give me some time and space, since I could not think straight.

I called and texted her during the coming weekend, the usual stuff. Declared my love, pointed out how good things had been before etc. But she told me that she had enough and that there were not any chances for us getting back together. When my wife came to pick up our D the first time I had her, she told me that it was to much time for me to spend with D, that it should only be 2 hours/week and that it would be 2 weeks before I could see her next time. It made me angry, and 1 week after BD I formulated an e-mail in where I tried to make a summary of the divorce:

- That I did not want to divorce her. That I loved her and asked her to go to MC with me.
- That it might be good for us to live apart for a while.
- That I would live in our house. That she wanted to leave and also has her family living close to us.
- That D should live with us every other week which is more or less the norm in our country.
- Stated that I wanted to cooperate as much as possible with her, to make this as easy as possible for our D.

The next day I got a letter from her L telling me to move out of the house immediately or else, that W left the house with our D to avoid confrontations, that D will live with W and that we should try to find time when I can meet D. I went emotionally out of control, but at least I did not contact W right away. I spoke with W several days later, she was furious that I could even suggest that D would live with me. We talked for several times during this week, also with mediation from her parents. They said that it was over and all I could do was moving on. That me and my W could probably be friends and that we should do this as amicable as possible for our D. It ended up with me getting to see our D daytime for 2-3 days/week if I agreed to sign divorce papers stating that I agreed with the divorce and that D should live with W mostly. This was however only a temporary solution and it would increase with time.

After this fight (and also after BD as well) W had a hard time speaking to me or even look at me. I could tell that she was highly disturbed when she met me when D was dropped off between us. Ds time with me went on as planned and neither of us had any problems with it initially. W bought an apartment a short time thereafter with financial help from her parents and requested that we should sell our house asap. I was hesitant at first, but found an apartment that suited me (not much out there on the market were I live) so I bought it and started the process to sell. Everything was finalized 2 weeks ago.

W has been really cold and business-like towards me all this time, but started to ease up a tiny bit after the house was sold. I have been reading that this is not unusual since she feels less pressure.

More will follow,
SwHubby
Welcome to the board

Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.

The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/
http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm

and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htm

You may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!

Get out and Get a Life (GAL).

DETACH.


Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.

Have NO EXPECTATIONS.

Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.

Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.

Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:

I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072

Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095

Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414

Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566

Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096

Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153

For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554

Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224

Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1

Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764

Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574

The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619

Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.

Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
Background:

We have been together for 10 years and married for 5 years. D is 4 years old. We bought the house just before D was born. My wife has a long history of suffering from rheumatism as well as depression. Ske was also depressed after D was born. She connected deeply with D: could not stand being away from her, watched me like a hawk when I had her and like changed diapers, would only let others hold D for a short period of time, were (and still is) overprotective.

Me on the other hand, burned out really bad at work and got a stress induced fatigue syndrome (do not know if the term is correct for US/UK). I’ve had the fatigue for almost 3 years now with fatigue, headaches, being stress sensitive, sensitive to light and noises, emotionally numb, depressive, difficulty to remember stuff as well as a generally low level of psychic endurance. I got better over time and has been working part-time for a while. I will hopefully be back at work full-time this autumn. The symptoms are still there but can be controlled most of the time.

During this period W grew distant from me. At periods, I could not really show affection for her or our D and my physical and phycic endurance has been highly volatile on a daily basis. I have not been able to be my “normal happy me” and I have been around my family physically but not been present mentally. I could just sit there and stare out the window without thinking of anything. I rested a lot. We have not been intimate for the past year now and I have sensed that she has been more and more withdrawn from me for at least the past 6 months. Not wanting to hug or be close to me.
She started to work after parental leave 2 years ago at a new company, in a position she wanted to have previously. She is really engaged and has quickly become the glue of the place. The person everyone talks to when somethings needs to get done and who everyone likes. But she has been working too much for a long time. During the past months, her work description got altered so she could finish work in the assigned hours. Both me and other family members were really worried for her before that because it felt like she was close to burning out.
I have sensed that this was not going well but told myself that it could be handled in the future. I started to plan for us to find our way back to each other this spring, when W could work less. That is also my I sent her away for a week to the sun on holiday (see last post) even though I could not follow due to work.

I had felt for a long time that life was hopeless and felt like a victim. However, I started to feel better about myself. Took action during spring: I have been decreasing the level of anti-depressants (think that they may be partly responsible for my emotional numbness), went on a 1 week camp for ppl with fatigue syndrome (learned that I had already come a long way in healing myself compared to others), booked travels for us (anniverseries), trying to find activities for just the two of us, discussing other things than D, getting some light physical exercise. However, it seems like it was too late, too little.

W issues:
- She cannot see a future where I’m not sick. That the situation cannot get any better. Life with me in it is hopeless.
- She is really unhappy and think that the only solution would be to leave me. That I am to blame for her unhappiness and everything that is bad in her life and our relationship is because of my illness.
- She thinks that I cannot take care of myself and therefore not being able to take care of a child (based on how I’ve been before in my illness).
- She also thinks that I could have done more to get healthy faster.
- She thinks that I am unable to discuss emotional stuff. This has been a problem for me since childhood, but I have at least improved over time.
- I have a hard time taking action. I read and plan a lot, but either it takes too long or I do not get to the action part.
- She thinks that I take her for granted snd did not show her affection. I have been prioritizing myself the past years.
- She gets unhappy and feel guilt when we are discussing fianancial issues, because she generally wants to buy stuff and I ask her if we really need that particular stuff. However, I do not think that she is irresponsible with money and tries to reason with her about it, telling her that if it is important and if she really wants it, then of course we’ll buy it.
- One thing I noticed when reading is that we have different love languages. I need physical intimacy which my wife has problems with. She wants to be shown by actions that she is important, without her needing to tell me about it. Like giving her small gifts, doing things for her like starting the car for her in the winter morning, planning things for her/us.
Background:

We have been together for 10 years and married for 5 years. D is 4 years old. We bought the house just before D was born. My wife has a long history of suffering from rheumatism as well as depression. Ske was also depressed after D was born. She connected deeply with D: could not stand being away from her, watched me as hawk when I had her and like changed diapers, would only let others hold D for a short period of time, were (and still is) overprotective.

Me on the other hand, burned out really bad at work (big4, public accountant) and got a stress induced fatigue syndrome (do not know if the term is correct for US/UK). I’ve had the fatigue for almost 3 years now with fatigue, headaches, being stress sensitive, sensitive to light and noises, emotionally numb, depressive, difficulty to remember stuff as well as a generally low level of psychic endurance. I got better over time and has been working part-time with various amounts of hours/week. I will hopefully be back at work full-time this autumn. The symptoms are still there but can be controlled most of the time.

During this period W grew distant from me. At periods, I could not really show affection for her or our D and my physical and phycic endurance has been highly volatile on a daily basis. I have not been able to be my “normal happy me” and I have been around my family physically but not been present mentally. I could just stare out the window for 5 minutes without thinking of anything. I rested a lot. We have not been intimate for the past year now and I have sensed that she has been more and more withdrawn from me for at least the past 6 months. Not wanting to hug or be close to me.
She started to work after parental leave 2 years ago at a new company, in a position she wanted to have previously. She is really engaged and has quickly become the glue of the place. The person everyone talks to when somethings needs to get done and who everyone likes. But she has been working too much for a long time. During the past months, her work description got altered so she could finish work in the assigned hours. Both me and other family members were really worried for her before that because it felt like she was close to burning out.

I have sensed that this was not going well but told myself that it could be handled in the future. I started to plan for us to find our way back to each other this spring. I had felt for a long time that life was hopeless and felt like a victim. However, I started to feel better about myself.
Took action during spring: I have been decreasing the level of anti-depressants (think that they may be partly responsible for my emotional numbness), went on a 1 week camp for ppl with fatigue syndrome (learned that I had already come a long way in healing myself compared to others), booked travels for us (anniverseries), trying to find activities for just the two of us, discussing other things than D, getting some light physical exercise. However, it seems like it was too late, too little.

W issues:
- She cannot see a future where I’m not sick. That the situation cannot get any better. Life with me in it is hopeless.
- She is really unhappy and think that the only solution would be to leave me. That I am to blame for her unhappiness and everything that is bad in her life and our relationship is because of my illness.
- She thinks that I cannot take care of myself and therefore not being able to take care of a child (based on how I’ve been before in my illness).
- She also thinks that I could have done more to get healthy faster.
- She thinks that I am unable to discuss emotional stuff. This has been a problem for me since childhood, but I have at least improved over time.
- I have a hard time taking action. I read and plan a lot, but either it takes too long or I do not get to the action part.
- She thinks that I take her for granted snd did not show her affection. I have been prioritizing myself the past years.
- She gets unhappy and feel guilt when we are discussing fianancial issues, because she generally wants to buy stuff and I ask her if we really need that particular stuff. However, I do not think that she is irresponsible with money and tries to reason with her about it, telling her that if it is important and if she really wants it, then of course we’ll buy it.

One thing I noticed when reading is that we have different love languages. I need physical intimacy which my wife has problems with. She wants to be shown by actions that she is important, without her needing to tell me about it. Like giving her small gifts, doing things for her like starting the car for her in the winter morning, planning things for her/us.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.

Originally Posted By: Wonka
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.

It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.

We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.

Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
My plan:

In my heart, I still want and hope for a reconciliation but I understand that it won’t happen soon. My wife is really hurt and unhappy I cannot see how she could come back to me at the moment. I also do not know if I really want her back right now. At least not the alien that has taken over my W.

I have read a lot online and also bought DR. I’m trying to LRT now.

- I put a lot of time in to selling the house
- Getting a broker
- fixing small things around the house etc.

Now I try to find out things for GAL. It’s hard since all my close friends live elsewhere (moved here to be close to W family). However, I try to make friends in my town as well at work. Met some guys for pool as well as board games. I also exercise daily. I either go for a run or a powerwalk, depending on how the body feels. Updating my wardrobe, make sure I get a nice haircut as well.

I also confronted my father (alcoholic, denying it), learned about our family history with depression and suicides that I was never told as a child and haven't talked about since growing up either. I always knew something was wrong thought. Been going in therapy before regarding my illness. I also started seeing another one about the divorce a couple of weeks after BD.

I try to be upbeat when I see W, going out for a run as soon as she picks our D up, not asking her anything unless she starts to talk to me. Only contact her to arrange for D or practical stuff like financial issues (if I have too).

There could perhaps be another man in the background. If so, I think it would most probably be an EA.

Some questions:

Is there really a chance for us? I think I blew it big time when I challenged her regarding custody and so on regarding our D. She was cold but tried to get an amicable divorce before that, as long as she got full custody etc.

Based on my story, what do you think should be my next move?

How bad was the idea to sell the house? W pushed hard for a sale and I could not really keep the house by myself. We would have been selling it first thing after summer otherwise. However, I am still living in the house until the middle of Aug when the ownership formally changes.


This has been an emotional rollercoaster for sure, especially during the first 2 weeks after BD. I have never really thought that a divorce could be possible for us. I've seen on the board that it's not an uncommon belief.
Thanks Cadet!
Originally Posted By: SwHubby
Some questions:

Is there really a chance for us?
YES
Originally Posted By: SwHubby
Based on my story, what do you think should be my next move?

Read my first post over and over and follow the directions there
One thing that has really bothered me and that others commented on as well is that everything must happen so quickly for her right now.

- Get a L
- moving out
- custody "discussion" (more like battle)
- sign D papers
- buy an APT
- split assets
and so on.

If I didn't know her, I would suspect an A with a work collegue for sure.

However, she told me that she more or less decided to divorce me 6 months ago and had been thinking about ut for a longer time than that. But she felt bad about leaving me since I was ill. I guess this was well-planned and that she lost it when I went against those plans in the beginning.
Thanks Cadet, I know it's a marathon and that I should not believe anything she says or does. I guess it's just that you easily think that your own case is different from others. :-)

Just trying to keep on LRT-ing right now by following the rules set by Sandi2.
The status right now:

W and D went for a 2 week vacation with her family and will be back next weekend. I had a short videocall with D yesterday. Really miss her...

I'm working this week and will go for one week abroad by myself on Saturday. Will just go for some sight-seeing, enjoy the city and read DR (and other books) in some park (probably Hyde). Will be home the day before D comes home. I will try to find GAL-activities during the summer. Perhaps visit some friends and family and go to a concert or two.
Originally Posted By: SwHubby

Is there really a chance for us? I think I blew it big time when I challenged her regarding custody and so on regarding our D. She was cold but tried to get an amicable divorce before that, as long as she got full custody etc.

Based on my story, what do you think should be my next move?
le for us. I've seen on the board that it's not an uncommon belief.



Hello SwHubby,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

Don't be too hard on yourself regarding past mistakes on how to handle things. Slip ups happen! The good news is that you are recognizing the slip ups and are learning from them.

You are not going to get your family back by agreeing with everything your W suggests and demands. What does your L say about the custody arrangement?

You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Hello SwB, welcome!

Originally Posted By: SwHubby
In my heart, I still want and hope for a reconciliation but I understand that it won’t happen soon. My wife is really hurt and unhappy I cannot see how she could come back to me at the moment. I also do not know if I really want her back right now. At least not the alien that has taken over my W.


Usually the "alien" comments are regarding MLC, and based on your post I think your W is a WAW and not MLC. There were clearly some big problems in the M. It's unfortunate that she chose to leave instead of trying to work on things, but the same could be said for most of us here.

Quote:
Now I try to find out things for GAL. It’s hard since all my close friends live elsewhere (moved here to be close to W family). However, I try to make friends in my town as well at work. Met some guys for pool as well as board games. I also exercise daily. I either go for a run or a powerwalk, depending on how the body feels. Updating my wardrobe, make sure I get a nice haircut as well.


Great, keep it up!

Quote:
Is there really a chance for us? I think I blew it big time when I challenged her regarding custody and so on regarding our D. She was cold but tried to get an amicable divorce before that, as long as she got full custody etc.


Yes there's a chance, and no I do not think you blew it trying to get custody of your D. I don't know if you're disabled to the point that it interferes with you taking care of D4, but assuming you're not then it's not at all unreasonable to expect more then just a daily visitation now and then. Honestly if it were me I would have fought my W to the bitter end for at least 50% visitation, but thankfully my W didn't dispute it.

Quote:
Based on my story, what do you think should be my next move?


Custody dispute aside, keep working on yourself. Try to regain as much of your health as you can. Eat right, get in the best shape possible, do things to create and maintain a positive outlook. Give your W time and space. You don't have to be in her face all the time for her to see your changes. It sounds like a lot of her concerns were over your health and her thinking you would never do anything to change it, so if you can do a 180 there then that'll go a long way towards convincing her she was wrong.

Quote:
How bad was the idea to sell the house? W pushed hard for a sale and I could not really keep the house by myself. We would have been selling it first thing after summer otherwise. However, I am still living in the house until the middle of Aug when the ownership formally changes.


It just seems like things are moving extremely fast. That's really pretty unusual. I'm not sure what your role has been in all of that, but in general don't help her push through the D. If she requests something of you then do provide it, but don't push it through yourself. Do protect yourself though, do not fall into the trap of thinking you should sign whatever she hands you to placate her. It may have the opposite effect, she may see you as wimpy and unable to stand up for yourself.

Quote:
This has been an emotional rollercoaster for sure, especially during the first 2 weeks after BD. I have never really thought that a divorce could be possible for us. I've seen on the board that it's not an uncommon belief.


Yes BD comes as a shock to pretty much all of us. Rarely is any LBS of the opinion that the M was perfect, but what M is? Most of us think we and our spouse are both dealing with the difficulties of life and M, we don't realize that in fact our spouse is NOT dealing with it. They're internalizing it and are a bomb waiting to go off.
Hi, thank you for the kind words.

Well, I got a lawyer on my own AFTER signing the documents. Big mistake... However, talked to a lawyer afterwards, and the agreement can still be challenged (the part about custody). So contacted the court this week and I'm working to make it happen. If I can withdraw that part from the divorce papers, we're back to square one trying to agree upon this together.

Well, I heard the same comments about myself from friends and family, "stand up for yourself and your girl" etc. Know that I suffer partially from NGS.

Going forward now regarding custody by:
1. annulation of custody agreement
2. Try to reason with W about gradually increasing time with D. This would be the best as long as 50% is the goal, but I think that it won't be possible.
3. If not, the government offers free mediation where a valid agreement can be signed.
4. Court...
Hi AS,

Thanks!

I can see how the alien comment usually is used for MLC. I agree that I probably have a WAW, feel that the description is spot on in almost everything. I guess it's the uncharacteristic coldness and anger and the search for negative things about me that I feel is so out of character. A discussion could have me say "I agree with you" and her responding "WHAT, do you not agree with me!"....
But I understand that it's not unusual.


But she does't do crazy things that is totally out of character for sure (like MLC-style).


About my health:
Well, my doctor as well as both my therapists are quite amazed about how W can see me as someone totally disabled.
I think that she has an absolute negative view about the illness. Since my wife has taken care of our D more than me and in order to prove that I am capable of taking care of D, I would be totally fine with giving her some time when I would increase visitation gradually until 50%.

I'm having a hard time keeping the meaning of legal words apart (not native English speaking) but in our earlier discussions I managed in the end to get shared custody but with less visitation instead. Think that would be the correct description of the stich. smile

Yes, I guess that you are correct: my health is the large issue to deal with.
And even if I cannot get 100% healthy, I CAN get better and I CAN FOR SURE change the way i view myself and my illness. Always had high expectations of myself before and were a high-achiever. I think that my sitch made me really depressed for a long time.

I have not been pushing for the D (at least intentionally), but I think W planned this for a long time and knew exactly what to do when the bomb dropped, like she had an action list to finish as quickly as possible.

I agree that I need to make sure that I don't come across as wimpy.

Again, thanks!
Hi Guys,

I'm trying to fight the loneliness and pain today, walking around in our house... Spoke to D this morning for a few minutes, videocall. Feels alot worser when W and D are not even in the same country and have not been around for the entire week, and will not get back for another week.

Will however have to start packing for my own trip tonight soon. Hopefully I will be able to GAL alot this week (London). Been planning alot of activities so it's up to me to execute them now.

But feels like my heart is trying to make it's way straight out of my chest at the moment...
Time for an update.

Have been on vacation by myself this week. Done a lot of walking, sightseeing, eating. Also been shopping a little bit for D and seen 2 musicals (usually do not do either of it) and had a great time overall. Been journaling every day, and also writing down thoughts of our M, what to do going forward, about my illness etc.

Been trying to get rest/relaxation/meditation daily and it worked ok. I have been really tired at times, especially when I have visited museums (lots of ppl and noise). Then I've been trying to find a café or something similar to sit and journal or just closing my eyes for minute. I have been eager to get going and start the day every day which means a lot to me.

I have felt lonely of course on occasion, but not all the time. Thought about NC this week and wait to contact D until Sunday when she will be with me. However, my wife broke that today to ask about a major accident in my hometown hoping that I did not know anyone injured. I thanked her for caring and telling her i did not know anyone considering what I knew at that moment. Think I had a more caring tone than hers that were more business-like. Was this wrong of me or am I just over-analyzing?

I will write soon again!
Originally Posted By: SwHubby

I have felt lonely of course on occasion, but not all the time. Thought about NC this week and wait to contact D until Sunday when she will be with me. However, my wife broke that today to ask about a major accident in my hometown hoping that I did not know anyone injured. I thanked her for caring and telling her i did not know anyone considering what I knew at that moment. Think I had a more caring tone than hers that were more business-like. Was this wrong of me or am I just over-analyzing?

I will write soon again!


Hello SwHubby,

Yes, you are over analyzing.

Focus less on what she is doing/thinking and more on yourself.

Glad you are having a nice trip- excellent GAL!

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Originally Posted By: SwHubby
I guess it's the uncharacteristic coldness and anger and the search for negative things about me that I feel is so out of character. A discussion could have me say "I agree with you" and her responding "WHAT, do you not agree with me!"....
But I understand that it's not unusual.


Right, it's all WAS script. That's why we say give them time and distance, because anything you say will be used against you. Have you read the thread on validation? Validating is about the only thing you can do with a WAS that almost never results in a confrontation. Validating is not agreeing or disagreeing, it is simply acknowledging her feelings.


Quote:
I have not been pushing for the D (at least intentionally), but I think W planned this for a long time and knew exactly what to do when the bomb dropped, like she had an action list to finish as quickly as possible.


Yes, that is pretty typical as well. They usually have a plan in place long before BD. Take the pressure off of her and she might not feel the need to rush those plans though.

Originally Posted By: SwHubby
I have felt lonely of course on occasion, but not all the time. Thought about NC this week and wait to contact D until Sunday when she will be with me.


You can't really go NC when a kid is involved. When it comes to your D, do what you need to do to get as much exposure to her as you can.

Quote:
However, my wife broke that today to ask about a major accident in my hometown hoping that I did not know anyone injured. I thanked her for caring and telling her i did not know anyone considering what I knew at that moment. Think I had a more caring tone than hers that were more business-like. Was this wrong of me or am I just over-analyzing?


Well, giving her time and space really just means you should not contact your W. If she contacts you it's OK to respond.You didn't do anything wrong, but yeah you don't want to over-analyze these simple exchanges because they really don't mean anything in the grand scheme of things.
Yes...over analyzing IMO. I have two D's 8 and 6, when they are with their mom I do not contact. I trust they are well cared for and if anything was wrong the W would let me know. I do not reach out to her for anything unless it is to coordinate pick up/drop off....I am trying to give her all the space she needs. Since she moved out there has been no talk of D and this Sat will be 1 month.
Thanks!

So what I can do at this point is:

- leave her alone, give time and distance
- when we talk, initiated by her unless totally neccessary, avoid conflict and validate
- focus on myself, trying to get healthier as well as detach and GAL
- be the best dad i can be


AS: I totally agree that I cannot go full blown NC. I was thinking about it and think the meaning of NC for me in my sitch is just don't contact W unless neccessary (D or finances) and let her initiate almost all contact. Just what you told me basically. :-)


Is there anything else I can think about when dealing with a WAS? I tried to read around online but having a hard time getting a good overall picture (bits and pieces).

Also, could me validating give W a feeling of me being "fake" ad this is not normal behaviour for me?
Dealing with her supporting family.

W family is really close and they totally support her in this even though they wish it were different. They just want my W (and D of course) to be happy. But they still keep in contact with me since I am family, sort of anyway. Said things like "things will never be the same again but we can keep contact in the future, maybe play some golf together with D", "we still love you as much as before" and so on. Different comments from various family members.

They tried to talk me into speeding up the divorce early on with comments such as "this is really sad but it is better to work through this quickly and finish the D", "there is no chance for the two of you", "this will in the end be the best for all three of you" (how I hate that comment, ppl trying to tell me how to feel and think).

On the other hand, I notice that my W does not want me to be in contact with her family. She's not telling me this, but she is noticable uncomfortable with me talking to her family. So I try to stay away and stopped contacting them unless it is something like a birthday or doctor's appointment (serious illness). They have not contacted me for about a month as well.

How should I manage my relationships with her family members? Simply keep my distance and be neutral and show the very best me when possible?

It is hard since they feel more like my family than my own does.
Will see W tomorrow shortlymfornthe forst time in 2 weeks since she is dropping of D. Also want to bump. :-)
Shortly for the first time.... (see above)
Noticed the past week that my sitch about our D is building resentment within me. Still waiting for the court to get back to me regarding annulling our previous agreement (received confirmation that they are handling the matter).

Been trying to suggest really nicely to W that our D should start to sleep in our house with me. Also that we should increase my time with her. W handles it by ignoring those suggestions. Have not asked her in person yet since I only see her when we are dropping D back and forth between us. Also waiting for court decision.
Met W a couple of times now. It is tense but she appears happy.....
she will always ALWAYS appear happy in front of you


UNLESS she can blame you for not being happy (like if she doesn't get to have D a certain expected weekend)

or if you fight for anything in the div that she did not expect...then you'll be even more of an obstacle to her joy.

Do not read anything into HER happiness, but project your own. Use the drop offs as chances to show 180's "on your way to GAL", "a little rushed to be on time to GAL", etc

Do not read anything into the anger she will, eventually, show. Unless it all goes her way and even then...


Meanwhile You can fake it till you make it.

More later...
Thanks, I guess I need to be reminded about it from time to time.
Sorry you are here, SWH, truly. AND I'm sorry for the length of this post but I took yours and tried to go point by point...

I really appreciate your candor in the marital situation b/c it makes it a lot easier for us to respond accordingly. You'd be surprised how many people just cannot be honest even when they are fighting the battle for their marriage and asking for help.

Good on you.



[quote=SwHubby]Background:

We have been together for 10 years and married for 5 years. D is 4 years old. We bought the house just before D was born. My wife has a long history of suffering from rheumatism as well as depression. Ske was also depressed after D was born.

while I fully concede that ^^ being a factor in your marital problems, the rest of your post reveals that her depression might have been increased for situational reasons. Make sense?

She connected deeply with D: could not stand being away from her, watched me like a hawk when I had her and like changed diapers, would only let others hold D for a short period of time, were (and still is) overprotective.


I don't see this^^^ as a marital issue at this point. Being the best dad you can be and showing your w that you CAN care for your d just fine, is key to you getting partial custody AND it's attractive to every mother to see her child lovingly interacting with the father of that child.


Me on the other hand, burned out really bad at work and got a stress induced fatigue syndrome (do not know if the term is correct for US/UK). I’ve had the fatigue for almost 3 years now with fatigue, headaches, being stress sensitive, sensitive to light and noises, emotionally numb, depressive, difficulty to remember stuff as well as a generally low level of psychic endurance.

I assume you can see that this ^^^ would greatly affect a spouse, too. It wears on them, especially if they are working and doing most of the childcare.


I got better over time and has been working part-time for a while. I will hopefully be back at work full-time this autumn. The symptoms are still there but can be controlled most of the time.

During this period W grew distant from me. At periods, I could not really show affection for her or our D and my physical and phycic endurance has been highly volatile on a daily basis. I have not been able to be my “normal happy me” and I have been around my family physically but not been present mentally. I could just sit there and stare out the window without thinking of anything. I rested a lot.


No offense SWH, but can you see how your Wife could re-write that^^ sentence to say

"HE grew distant from me/us - and H was Just Not There For me or our d"....?

I would think your w was very lonely & tired inside the marriage. She really was doing all the heavy lifting for quite some time.


I'm not trying to bash you when you are down, but I am Not mystified by your w's actions.

Does what I'm saying here^^, make sense?




We have not been intimate for the past year now and I have sensed that she has been more and more withdrawn from me for at least the past 6 months. Not wanting to hug or be close to me.


same as before, she could write that YOU withdrew from her and she has not had intimacy for the past year, etc.

Can you see things from her perspective?


Did either of you ever address any of these many many red flags by talking about them, (fighting about them), seeing a counselor or doctor together?

What is the reason you finally sought treatment?



She started to work after parental leave 2 years ago at a new company, in a position she wanted to have previously.

how'd you guys get by financially while she was on leave and you were not working?


She is really engaged and has quickly become the glue of the place. The person everyone talks to when somethings needs to get done and who everyone likes.

But she has been working too much for a long time.



So, do you think she perhaps blamed you for any of this?? Burning out and seeing you not well for a prolonged time -that changes the marital dynamic.

Did you discuss her working less and if so, how'd that go?

Despite what some feminists friends will say, most women don't enjoy earning more than their h's unless he's a great stay at home dad who fully picks up the slack.

And Even then, it takes a very secure man to handle it.



During the past months, her work description got altered so she could finish work in the assigned hours. Both me and other family members were really worried for her before that because it felt like she was close to burning out.

how did discussions about this^^^ go for you? What did you Do to ease her burden?


I have sensed that this was not going well but told myself that it could be handled in the future. I started to plan for us to find our way back to each other this spring, when W could work less.


So there was some "deferred work" on the marriage and yet worrying about "when she could work less".

I'm sorry SWH.

Please, you have to understand that this^^ sounds like a guy letting his w do all the heavy lifting financially and maritally and parentally for 3+ years, all while "planning" to do something about it to help out, later...that is too much for most women.

She must have loved you very much.


Oh and did you inform your wife of these plans? I mean, How would she know that she could shoulder LESS in the future?



That is also my I sent her away for a week to the sun on holiday (see last post) even though I could not follow due to work.


when you say you "sent her away", does this mean you forced her go somewhere or you paid for her to take a desirable trip out of family funds

or you arranged a family vacation that you could not then join her with, or what?

Also, how are the finances handled generally?


I had felt for a long time that life was hopeless and felt like a victim.


well, ^^^ that's a hard thing for a spouse to live with. Can you see that?

And You can see that it's Not her responsibility to make you feel better either, right?

I'm asking, not saying snarky things. I want to know what realizations you have about your behavior as a partner and co-parent.

Because it just sounds like Her needs have gone unmet for a long time, and in some ways, this would have been very clear.

I mean, it's not as if her needs were rare. Nearly everyone would have a hard time being around your conditions (not blaming you for them, but it feels like you took a long time to address them much).

You described yourself as having been a hopeless guy who needs to be in the dark (what does sensitive to light manifest as, if not dark or dimly lit places) and who rests a lot, who didn't connect with his wife or others, stared vacantly even while present, and in sum, a guy who just does not pull his weight.

GOOD NEWS for you is that Your job now is pretty straight forward.

Show changes in these^^^ conditions.

Not just to get her back. With these types of health/emotional issues I'd think YOU would want to change b/c you have been in a dark depressive funk for some time.

I know your w's choices have hurt you. I get that big time. But I think maybe you needed the wake up call

or you might have gone on the rest of your life in some twilight zone, not really living.

PART 2


However, I started to feel better about myself. Took action during spring: I have been decreasing the level of anti-depressants (think that they may be partly responsible for my emotional numbness), went on a 1 week camp for ppl with fatigue syndrome (learned that I had already come a long way in healing myself compared to others),

not sure this^^ helps you much in the situation, b/c now it's all about helping your w see your improvement from what was, to what IS. (Not vague promises to get better later.
Make sense?


booked travels for us (anniverseries), trying to find activities for just the two of us, \

are YOU GAL? How difficult is it to find activities? What do you mean by "trying" to find them?


discussing other things than D, getting some light physical exercise. However, it seems like it was too late, too little.



Then Do more (for yourself, which paradoxically, makes you more appealing to her).

Here is the "math" of it:

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in

W issues:
- She cannot see a future where I’m not sick. That the situation cannot get any better. Life with me in it is hopeless.


Well, You did describe life that way, for some time.

Again, you need to show her the new you. If she's been asking for you to get help or change or help her more, for a long time, then it's going to take longer for you to prove yourself to be a husband only a fool would leave.

Show her the new you OR the restored you, etc.



- She is really unhappy and think that the only solution would be to leave me. That I am to blame for her unhappiness and everything that is bad in her life and our relationship is because of my illness.
- She thinks that I cannot take care of myself and therefore not being able to take care of a child (based on how I’ve been before in my illness).

How can you reassure her that it's not true, now?



- She also thinks that I could have done more to get healthy faster.


and maybe she has a point.

Regardless, your course of action remains the same.

Change for YOU
(b/c it cannot be good to be in your shoes for the rest of your life)





- She thinks that I am unable to discuss emotional stuff. This has been a problem for me since childhood, but I have at least improved over time.




And you say it's been "improved over time", which means what? That it is "somewhat addressed" now.

Are you still trying to get to a point where you two can discuss anything emotional?

What were you like before this ailment befell you?



- I have a hard time taking action. I read and plan a lot, but either it takes too long or I do not get to the action part.
- She thinks that I take her for granted snd did not show her affection. I have been prioritizing myself the past years.



From your very honest description, there is validity to these^^ issues.

What are you doing about them?


- She gets unhappy and feel guilt when we are discussing fianancial issues, because she generally wants to buy stuff and I ask her if we really need that particular stuff.

or maybe she resents it. Maybe it would be better to help her feel some joy in a deserved gift by sharing in the selection, and or complimenting the choice.

I'm just saying this^^ b/c - I'm not picking up a "guilt" vibe from her, so much as disappointment and resentment on her end, like you are a killjoy of sorts.

But I don't know her obviously


-
- One thing I noticed when reading is that we have different love languages. I need physical intimacy which my wife has problems with.

I think you wrote that You were not able to be intimate, or you lost interest in it for some time...

Anyhow, did you two fight or talk about it?

Women need emotional support to be in the mood, and that's why we are not particularly receptive to ML after a fight, or after being disappointed in our spouses.


She wants to be shown by actions that she is important,



Just going out on a limb here, but every woman wants to be shown and feel important to her h. We want to be shown that we/the marriage/family are THE priority to our h's.

What were you like when she first met & fell in love with you?

What would it take to get back to that guy?

25, Thank you so much for going through everything! I will try to address everything in coming replies.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Sorry you are here, SWH, truly. AND I'm sorry for the length of this post but I took yours and tried to go point by point...

I really appreciate your candor in the marital situation b/c it makes it a lot easier for us to respond accordingly. You'd be surprised how many people just cannot be honest even when they are fighting the battle for their marriage and asking for help.

Good on you.


Thanks! I know that haven't treated my wife as I should and I've been going through quite a lot of shame and guilt because of it. No reason not to be completely honest.


[quote=SwHubby]Background:

We have been together for 10 years and married for 5 years. D is 4 years old. We bought the house just before D was born. My wife has a long history of suffering from rheumatism as well as depression. Ske was also depressed after D was born.

while I fully concede that ^^ being a factor in your marital problems, the rest of your post reveals that her depression might have been increased for situational reasons. Make sense?


Absolutely.

She connected deeply with D: could not stand being away from her, watched me like a hawk when I had her and like changed diapers, would only let others hold D for a short period of time, were (and still is) overprotective.


I don't see this^^^ as a marital issue at this point. Being the best dad you can be and showing your w that you CAN care for your d just fine, is key to you getting partial custody AND it's attractive to every mother to see her child lovingly interacting with the father of that child.


I agree. I love spending time with D and caring for her. I really hope it will work out and that my wife will be able to see changes, but I'm also scared and have regular thoughts that it won't matter. I love my W&D and wish I could have done so much differently. On the other hand, I don't know if I could have seen it "in the moment" back then, as I have been in really dark places.


Me on the other hand, burned out really bad at work and got a stress induced fatigue syndrome (do not know if the term is correct for US/UK). I’ve had the fatigue for almost 3 years now with fatigue, headaches, being stress sensitive, sensitive to light and noises, emotionally numb, depressive, difficulty to remember stuff as well as a generally low level of psychic endurance.

I assume you can see that this ^^^ would greatly affect a spouse, too. It wears on them, especially if they are working and doing most of the childcare.


Of course, I understand that a lot of resentment has been building up over time. And since both of us are afraid of conflict, basically never had a fight and has problems discussing heavy subjects and emotions, resentments tends to grow. It weren't a problem for the first 5-7 years, since everything was fine (more or less).
I wish I could change it now, take it back. But I can't.


I got better over time and has been working part-time for a while. I will hopefully be back at work full-time this autumn. The symptoms are still there but can be controlled most of the time.

During this period W grew distant from me. At periods, I could not really show affection for her or our D and my physical and phycic endurance has been highly volatile on a daily basis. I have not been able to be my “normal happy me” and I have been around my family physically but not been present mentally. I could just sit there and stare out the window without thinking of anything. I rested a lot.


No offense SWH, but can you see how your Wife could re-write that^^ sentence to say

"HE grew distant from me/us - and H was Just Not There For me or our d"....?

I would think your w was very lonely & tired inside the marriage. She really was doing all the heavy lifting for quite some time.


I'm not trying to bash you when you are down, but I am Not mystified by your w's actions.

Does what I'm saying here^^, make sense?




I don't see it that way, I really appreciate your help.

Absolutely, I think that I would have seen it coming if I had been watching it from the outside instead of being a part of it. I definitely weren't there for them. I was busy victimizing myself and feeling hopelessness on my own.



We have not been intimate for the past year now and I have sensed that she has been more and more withdrawn from me for at least the past 6 months. Not wanting to hug or be close to me.


same as before, she could write that YOU withdrew from her and she has not had intimacy for the past year, etc.

Can you see things from her perspective?


Did either of you ever address any of these many many red flags by talking about them, (fighting about them), seeing a counselor or doctor together?

What is the reason you finally sought treatment?


We did not really talk about it. Now, I think my wife tried to. Mostly by nagging and criticizing me. At least that is what I felt it was. So I withdrew from the sitch when I felt under attack. Yes, I can absolutely see that she felt lonely in our MR.

With treatment, do you mean burnout/depression? I had treatment from the beginning, with different doctors and different treatments during this period. However, the recovery has been so slow. I felt that things shifted with a new doctor as well as therapist. Also, my perspective changed and I started demanding assistance from my employer (required in law in my country) as well as changing how I viewed myself regarding career etc.

My wife hasn't met my therapist or doctor.



She started to work after parental leave 2 years ago at a new company, in a position she wanted to have previously.

how'd you guys get by financially while she was on leave and you were not working?


Sickness benefit, both managed by the state as well as private insurance. I have also been working part time for a long time. Finance hasn't been an issue, at least since she started working.

Before that, with me receiving benefits and my wife taking care of our child, we had to touch savings a little bit for a couple of months.


She is really engaged and has quickly become the glue of the place. The person everyone talks to when somethings needs to get done and who everyone likes.

But she has been working too much for a long time.



So, do you think she perhaps blamed you for any of this?? Burning out and seeing you not well for a prolonged time -that changes the marital dynamic.

Did you discuss her working less and if so, how'd that go?

Despite what some feminists friends will say, most women don't enjoy earning more than their h's unless he's a great stay at home dad who fully picks up the slack.

And Even then, it takes a very secure man to handle it.


Yes, I think that she did that. She was supposed to work part time according to employee agreement, but worked a lot of extra time.



During the past months, her work description got altered so she could finish work in the assigned hours. Both me and other family members were really worried for her before that because it felt like she was close to burning out.

how did discussions about this^^^ go for you? What did you Do to ease her burden?


She didn't want to talk about it, since she "wasn't the one being ill" and snapped when I tried to bring it up.
I didn't help much, to be honest. I tried to take care of more things at home, but had problems keeping it up in the long run.



I have sensed that this was not going well but told myself that it could be handled in the future. I started to plan for us to find our way back to each other this spring, when W could work less.


So there was some "deferred work" on the marriage and yet worrying about "when she could work less".

I'm sorry SWH.

Please, you have to understand that this^^ sounds like a guy letting his w do all the heavy lifting financially and maritally and parentally for 3+ years, all while "planning" to do something about it to help out, later...that is too much for most women.

She must have loved you very much.


Oh and did you inform your wife of these plans? I mean, How would she know that she could shoulder LESS in the future?



I certainly agree that I checked out for these years. Financially, I still brought most of the money back to the household since I was working part time and the job is well paid. But maritally and parentally, I couldn't find the energy to manage.

I started talking to her a little bit, but think it was too late by then.




That is also my I sent her away for a week to the sun on holiday (see last post) even though I could not follow due to work.


when you say you "sent her away", does this mean you forced her go somewhere or you paid for her to take a desirable trip out of family funds

or you arranged a family vacation that you could not then join her with, or what?

[color:#FF0000]Language barrier. I didn't have enough vacation days to travel with them because of family trips planned in the future that I needed to save my days for. My wife wanted to go away somewhere sunny but wasn't sure that we could afford it (maybe feeling guilty as well since she already planned divorcing me). We had the money, no problem. So I made sure that she knew that I wanted her to take some time of work and restore her energy and paid with out family funds.




Also, how are the finances handled generally? [/color]

I had felt for a long time that life was hopeless and felt like a victim.


well, ^^^ that's a hard thing for a spouse to live with. Can you see that?

And You can see that it's Not her responsibility to make you feel better either, right?

[color:#FF0000]Yes. Back then when I got ill, I expected her to help me and felt abandoned since she didn't. I think it was because of all the times I helped her previously. Anyway, she had her hands full back then with our D, household and so on and the only one responsible for myself is me.



I'm asking, not saying snarky things. I want to know what realizations you have about your behavior as a partner and co-parent.

Because it just sounds like Her needs have gone unmet for a long time, and in some ways, this would have been very clear.

I mean, it's not as if her needs were rare. Nearly everyone would have a hard time being around your conditions (not blaming you for them, but it feels like you took a long time to address them much).

You described yourself as having been a hopeless guy who needs to be in the dark (what does sensitive to light manifest as, if not dark or dimly lit places) and who rests a lot, who didn't connect with his wife or others, stared vacantly even while present, and in sum, a guy who just does not pull his weight.

GOOD NEWS for you is that Your job now is pretty straight forward.

Show changes in these^^^ conditions.

Not just to get her back. With these types of health/emotional issues I'd think YOU would want to change b/c you have been in a dark depressive funk for some time.

I know your w's choices have hurt you. I get that big time. But I think maybe you needed the wake up call

or you might have gone on the rest of your life in some twilight zone, not really living.

[/color]



Yes, I feel that this nuke hitting me has giving me a lot of energy and perspective. I really want to change for myself, as well as my D. And W. I understand that W has been lonely for a long time.

Well, I believe that it has taken me quite some time to get better but that recovery from severe burnout usually takes a lot of time. I've been on meds, seen doctors and therapists from the beginning but it is during the past year that I have been feeling better. However, that resulted in me speeding up the process too much to get back to my old career right away which led to a "mini-crash" 6 months ago. It took a few months to recover fully from and be back on track again. I wish I knew back then what I know today. I was just happy to feel better, more energy, starting to take more initiative and action.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
PART 2


However, I started to feel better about myself. Took action during spring: I have been decreasing the level of anti-depressants (think that they may be partly responsible for my emotional numbness), went on a 1 week camp for ppl with fatigue syndrome (learned that I had already come a long way in healing myself compared to others),

not sure this^^ helps you much in the situation, b/c now it's all about helping your w see your improvement from what was, to what IS. (Not vague promises to get better later.
Make sense?


Yes.

booked travels for us (anniverseries), trying to find activities for just the two of us, \

are YOU GAL? How difficult is it to find activities? What do you mean by "trying" to find them?


This was previously while we still lived together. I tried to bring us closer again, but it was to late for that.
About GAL now when I live alone (and has D certain days):

- Exercising every day
- Reading more fiction
- Working with the house, in the yard (until ownership changes in Aug).
- Spent time in shops to upgrade my wardrobe and I make sure that I get haircuts regularly.
- Been hanging out with some guys from work as well as my neighbors.

I wish that I could socialize more though. Will try to set up play dates with D to meet more ppl in my age. My social network (IRL) is on the other side of our country and haven't been getting a lot of new friends the past few years.


discussing other things than D, getting some light physical exercise. However, it seems like it was too late, too little.



Then Do more (for yourself, which paradoxically, makes you more appealing to her).

Here is the "math" of it:

consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in


This was when we were still together, I do more now but understand that it will take TIME for them to be noticed and believed to be consistent. I think your formula is great, but it's hard since it requires a lot of patience and faith.

The only thing I can do and take action about that regards both me and W is divorce matters. It is hard to know whether I should do more when it means speeding the divorce further up or if I should slow things down. W don't want to talk to me (except for schudule regarding D or divorce actions). Right now the house has been sold and we bought an apartment each. Divorce cannot be fully finalized until late Nov. Until then we need to divide stuff from the house since we are both moving within a couple of weeks. We also need to make an agreement regarding dividing our assets.

I also try to have fun with D as well as taking responsibility for doctor's appointments, buying clothes etc and showing W that I can be a great dad.



W issues:
- She cannot see a future where I’m not sick. That the situation cannot get any better. Life with me in it is hopeless.


Well, You did describe life that way, for some time.

Again, you need to show her the new you. If she's been asking for you to get help or change or help her more, for a long time, then it's going to take longer for you to prove yourself to be a husband only a fool would leave.

Show her the new you OR the restored you, etc.


Yes.

- She is really unhappy and think that the only solution would be to leave me. That I am to blame for her unhappiness and everything that is bad in her life and our relationship is because of my illness.
- She thinks that I cannot take care of myself and therefore not being able to take care of a child (based on how I’ve been before in my illness).

How can you reassure her that it's not true, now?


see below


- She also thinks that I could have done more to get healthy faster.


and maybe she has a point.

Regardless, your course of action remains the same.

Change for YOU
(b/c it cannot be good to be in your shoes for the rest of your life)





- She thinks that I am unable to discuss emotional stuff. This has been a problem for me since childhood, but I have at least improved over time.




And you say it's been "improved over time", which means what? That it is "somewhat addressed" now.

Are you still trying to get to a point where you two can discuss anything emotional?

What were you like before this ailment befell you?


I've been working on my issues in therapy, and can talk about emotions more now than before. However, I am still insecure when it comes to emotions. I've always stayed in the rational side of the brain and it is hard to face emotions rather than rationalize the situation and the emotions instead.



- I have a hard time taking action. I read and plan a lot, but either it takes too long or I do not get to the action part.
- She thinks that I take her for granted snd did not show her affection. I have been prioritizing myself the past years.



From your very honest description, there is validity to these^^ issues.

What are you doing about them?


Trying to GAL and meet ppl. Get things done. Has been managing almost everything regarding our house sale together with our real estate agent.

About taking her for granted: She doesn't want to have me anywhere near her or do anything for her. It also contradicts LRT which makes it hard to make a 180 about it. I really don't know how to show this given the current sitch.

- She gets unhappy and feel guilt when we are discussing fianancial issues, because she generally wants to buy stuff and I ask her if we really need that particular stuff.

or maybe she resents it. Maybe it would be better to help her feel some joy in a deserved gift by sharing in the selection, and or complimenting the choice.

I'm just saying this^^ b/c - I'm not picking up a "guilt" vibe from her, so much as disappointment and resentment on her end, like you are a killjoy of sorts.

But I don't know her obviously


I think you are right. There are a lot of resentment... I just don't know how to deal with it.


-
- One thing I noticed when reading is that we have different love languages. I need physical intimacy which my wife has problems with.

I think you wrote that You were not able to be intimate, or you lost interest in it for some time...

Anyhow, did you two fight or talk about it?

[color:#FF0000]Yes, I stopped trying to get intimate some time before I got ill. I just got sad about being pushed away. I never addressed it, since I didnät want to make her feel guilty. So I kept it inside.


Women need emotional support to be in the mood, and that's why we are not particularly receptive to ML after a fight, or after being disappointed in our spouses. [/color]

She wants to be shown by actions that she is important,



Just going out on a limb here, but every woman wants to be shown and feel important to her h. We want to be shown that we/the marriage/family are THE priority to our h's.

What were you like when she first met & fell in love with you?

What would it take to get back to that guy?



Well, I was crazy about her and prioritized her in every situation. Always wanted to do things for her. I was very supportive. I was also more confident and social. To get him back, I would need to keep on recovering as well as getting more confident and social.

When analyzing what I've been writing and your answers, its quite clear what the underlying message is. She has been living with someone that's been sucking the life out of her. Previously, I was the one giving her life since she always were the one depressed and needed support. That 180 is not that great... And she cannot see a future with me in which she is happy.





You wrote this about who you were when she first met you:


Well, I was crazy about her and prioritized her in every situation. Always wanted to do things for her. I was very supportive. I was also more confident and social. To get him back, I would need to keep on recovering as well as getting more confident and social.

When analyzing what I've been writing and your answers, its quite clear what the underlying message is.

She has been living with someone that's been sucking the life out of her.

Previously, I was the one giving her life since she always were the one depressed and needed support. That 180 is not that great... And she cannot see a future with me in which she is happy.


Okay, fair enough. I can imagine how this^^ realization makes you feel. FYI, most of us here - if we have been truly honest and dug deep - have been brought to our knees with some brutal realities.

While it's crucial to learn from our mistakes, we also have to be in the present, changing our future b/c we are in charge of that.

You have to set yourself up for success --Stay in adult roles to function b/c your spouses and children deserve it, need it, and b/c it's the right healthy thing to do---

Stay well. You want your wife/daughter to be able to depend on you and

***THEY NEED THAT FROM YOU. It's pretty much a dealmaker/dealbreaker.

SWH,
I sense you are implying you have no control over your health or mental stability.

Maybe ^^^ that is true. Maybe at any point you'll suddenly feel too sad to function and too tired to help your w or to be present for your d or family or to hold a job.

But as long as you have that^^^ belief, you'll have to ask yourself -
how fair is it to your wife (or child) to be unreliable as a partner/parent

or to expose them to periodic bouts of you becoming dark, dependent and dysfunctional.

Your d needs 2 parents and your w needs a partner/co-parent. That's self evident and fair.

Thing is, from the way you write and show insight and compassion,

I believe you can & should take charge of your health. I believe you can be the man you were meant to become.


Your task is to set yourself up for success. Not saying you "Hope it gets better" or "Hope you stay healthy" or "IF IF IF you're well enough../recovery takes a LONG time..."

Do what it takes to show up for your family now, starting by being the best dad you can become. By faking it till you make it

(See Amy Cuddy's youtube video on positive thinking and Sean Achors Positive psychology - they have real data that shows how "external behaviors" can affect you internally and so instead of trying/hoping to feel better and then behaving better, you can do "outside in". The videos are only about 20 minutes and can change your life).

Anyhow, this is all about what helps you function the most. It's about becoming the man you were meant to become, the man your family deserves, to live your life fully in all your relationships.


Keep at this. Stay brave, dig deep, have faith.



Thanks 25,

Well, it is really hard to look back at the past years. And some of it is pretty blurry. It's very hard to imagine that it has been almost 3 years now.

Yes, I need to be consistent about my changes in order to be dependable. Something that I know has been a problem.

I think that I can control myself and my illness, something that I haven't believed in the past. However, it is hard and easy to slip up. But I have been feeling better for a longer time period now. But the depression held me back.

The videos were inspiring, thank you! I have been thinking about my posture lately. It has gone from a pretty good posture to a sack of potatoes during the past years and I want to improve it. But also hearing that it could have an psychological effect on top of how other ppl experience me, makes me want to improve it even more. When I was in university, and later in the start of my career, I did try to "fake it till you make it/become it" when it came to posture/confidence etc, and it really worked back then. And I totally get the part about "success does not lead to happiness, the goals are merely increased". No matter how great my accomplishments were in Univerisity/work and grades/awards/promotions I got, I always demanded more of myself.

And I really want to become that man again, the driven man full of happiness, ambition and energy that I used to be. But maybe with less ambition and more happiness/confidence/calm.


Thank you for your help 25, I really appreciate it!
Been alone for the weekend, had a hard time GALing. Cleaned the house, exercised (run) and a couple of walks. The plan for today is to finalize a proposal to W about dividing stuff since she is moving soon. Started to contact friends again (haven't for the past week) and will meet a couple of them in next week.

I have also taken measures in the past weeks to always look as good and well as possible: buying some new clothes, new haircut, new cologne (haven't used any for some time now), 2 pairs of new shoes, a new jacket. I have been waiting to make upgrades to my wardrobe for quite some time now.
During the time I didn't feel well, I let my appearance slip: avoided buying new clothes, didn't make reservations at hairdresser in time, didn't take showers on a daily basis if I was home alone etc. Previously, I was meticulous about dress codes and making a good first impression. Mostly for work (professional services) but also in my personal life.

My wife still do not want to contact me unless there is something important to discuss, like dividing stuff since she's moving into her new apartment in about a week or dropping of D. Otherwise it is radiosilence. I am keeping my distance and hasn't reached out at all: only responds when she initiates communication. And the communication we do have is pretty awkward, my W wants to leave as quickly as possible when dropping of D as an example. But at least she's not openly hostile at the moment.
When I see her, one part of me wants to yell at her and the other one wants to kiss her. But I am keeping it cool, just making a little bit of small talk and try to feel and look "fine".

Still giving D as much love as I possibly can when I see her, and coming up with activities for us to do. Going to parks/playgrounds, picnics, travel to nearby city by train etc.

Well, time to start with the objectives for the day!
Discussed practical stuff with W yesterday evening, since she's about to move into her new apartment next week. That went fine.

Then I asked her why she never responded to any of my suggestions that D could start sleeping at my place. My W told me that she was annoyed with me asking, that we had a verbal agreement, besides the written one (from the time we argued so heavily about our D in the beginning of BD/D) that:

1) I am going to get declared 100% healthy by doctor
2) Then one year should pass without any setbacks/symptoms of burnout. If so,
3) D is allowed to spend 1 night with me. And possibly more.

Wtf! Do not have any memory of such a deal. However, a lot of things were discussed during these days that I cannot remember everything we said to each other. I am getting nervous about what I really agreed upon with her. Or what she thinks we agreed upon. However, contacted the court some time ago about the possibility to dismiss our first agreement, and that communication will be sent to her. So a **** storm is coming eventually...

This makes me really sad. I thought that she would start softening since I am showens each time I am with D that i am perfectly fine taking care of her. Guess she cannot see that. I just want to help my W to get happy...
Update - W moved into her apartment last week with D. I will move this weekend and next week we will leave the keys to our house to the new owners.

Been doing a little bit of GAL the past few weeks. Seeing friends for coffee, been continuing my excercise with running and going for walks. Been having fun with D, going to playgrounds, went on day trips to a nearby city twice, visited a collegue who has a farm with a variety of animals. Also just had a good time at the house. Baked cupcakes together which was a first for me, cooked together, read books etc. It has been great!

W does not show any signs of interest in talking to me other than practical things about our daughter, dividing assets and making sure we are ready to leave our house to the new owners. However, this week she actually asked me how I was. I replied fine and asked her as well. She answered fine.

I have been asking her a few questions during e past weeks about her work after being back after vacation and their new apartment. Nothing detailed, just normal conversation. Received answers, fine and fine. We only meet when we exchange our D. It is frustrating but I know that I cannot expect anything else than this. And I cannot expect W to act warmer towards me.

Been missing W a lot the past few days, more than usual. Found a lot of pictures of us when I packed the last stuff in our house which triggered a lot of memories and feelings. I continued to look at old pics of me and her at Facebook. She does not update facebook that often so I cannot follow what she is doing. I guess this is a good thing though.

Cannot see at the moment how we could possibly reconcile in the future. W seems set on seeing this through. I have no idea if there is someone else, but i do not think so. But at this point it does not really matter since we are seperated, W considers us over and that D being final is just a formality. I cannot do much more than moving on with my life, building a new home, continuing with GAL and excercise as well as being the best possible man and dad I can be. I still have a little bit of hope but know that it would take an enormous amount of patience to get to a point were we are warming up to each other. In the current pace, probably years.
SwH, sorry to hear you're going through this. Sounds like my W, trying to push things through and be done as soon as possible.

At this point I recommend you close the door on your M and start planning your future without your W. Work on yourself and your plan for being with D4. Be strong!
Thanks Holding,

I know that would be the best in this sitch but it is really hard to close the door when we have a child together and see each other several times each week. But it feels like I am getting there gradually. It has been more than 3 months since BD and W moved out to her parents now. I think that moving to new home and making it my own (and D) will give me new energy.

Being strong is hard but I am at least no longer that mess I was around BD.
Hi SwHubby,

Please don't give up if you love your wife, do everything you can at least for another year. Continue with the DRing and GAL with your D and continue to improve yourself as you have the opportunity to show this with the interaction you are bound to have when S comes by.

Think to yourself "look what's back out on the market and what you've given up" when she's around be confident happy and aloof, always smile and continue to have a PMA.

It can happen just be patient and give it time...

Come on we can do this, take care.

Mark.
Hi Mark,

Thanks for your input. I highly appreciate it!

I won't give up just yet, I still have some hope deep down that we will find our way back to each other someday. But I also realize that it will take at least a year of hard work. W still has the feeling that she's doing the right thing (about everything) and all my actions and words are seen in a negative light no matter what they are about. Yesterday she wanted to talk a little bit, among other things she accussed me of deliberately ruin the day she moved into her apartment. That day she received a letter from the court that I had contacted them to make sure that our preliminary agreement regarding D wasn't getting final. The thing was that I contacted the court a month before that date... I asked her if she had wanted me to throw away the letter instead and of course she didn't want that.

We are still discussing visitations regarding D. I want her to understand that I want to be highly involved in D:s life. I don't want to be an "every other weekend dad". But I also don't want to start a fight and going to court if it's something we could resolve on our own (which we should be able to). Met my stepdad today, we threw away the last stuff in our house before the sale is closed on Friday. We avoided talk about my R with W which felt good. We always have a really good connection and I enjoy spending time with him.

Moved to my own place this weekend. It is starting to feel like home now which is a nice feeling. :-) GAL activities are centered around my apartment and home improvement projects. But also some excercise. Also bought the headspace app today. Has been meditating on and off the past 2 years but I think that some time every morning and every night to clear out my head will help me think more clearly, think before caring and improve sleep.

I will start working after summer vacation on Monday which feels great. Will be good for me to meet a lot of ppl and try to do some GAL activities with them after work. My friends are joking with me, telling me to get Tinder. I just laughed at them. I have zero interest in dating. There's enough to deal with as it is. :-)

Also quit the SSRI's last Friday after medicating for 2,5 years. Feels great! Have been reducing the dose since March. Think that I am on the right track health-wise.

About that comment about dropping the rope - I think that I can do it and still hope for a future where we are together. However, what's important is that both of us will be happy. I cannot revy on W or expect her to change her mind. I just have to work on my own life, me and my D. And maybe, maybe, she feels joy being in my company again. I have been reading Benni8's thread alot lately. That is better than any inspirational speech for me. :-) His story is really inspiring and proves that personal development can change relationships, even though they are "broken". Even if it doesn't work out in the end, given the change he's been going through, he's a winner no matter what.
Update:

Last week of this year's summer vacation. In a way, it feels good that it is coming to an end since I will have work to distract me then.

W continues to take everything I say or do as a direct insult towards her. I know that this is to be expected and has written about it before, but it is so hard to experience. She is really working hard to find flaws in me and our relationship and if she cannot find any at the moment, she's perfectly happy to fabricate them. But I know this is probably a subconcious process, to make sure she's on the right track.

Had a great afternoon with D. She got to visit my new apartment that she loved. She also got so excited about me having a bathtub (of all things) that she wanted to try it instantly. :-) We also tried the local playgrounds and ate tacos on the balcony. It has started to get really painful since she has a hard time saying goodbye to me when we have to part. Crying followed by lots of hugs and kisses. W isn't commenting this at all to me (in her head me and D doesn't have a relationship at all, as she told me a week ago) but she isn't trying to intervene in our goodbyes either.

This evening I have been sittning on the balcony with a cigar and beer, planing a treasure hunt for her tomorrow. Will burrow a couple of golden chocolate coins around the nearest playground and draw a map for her to follow.


What do I want for the future? I do not really know. I would like to say that I wouldn't want her back without some serious soulsearching in IC on her behalf. But knowing myself, I would probably jump out of joy and take ger back directly if she suggested something like that.

I do know that I need to work on myself. Improve my health, parenting skills and building a kickass relation with D. Also meet new ppl and expand my network. Most of my friends and family are located in other parts of the country so I need more local friends.
It's crazy some of the stuff the WW will spew. I was told I was "abusive" and was never a father to W's daughter that I have parented for 6 years.

Now that's she's moved to another state, she misses me so much and sends me pictures of her daughter whom I also speak to regularly.

Pay no attention to any of her spew. Her resolve to leave might not be as strong as it was and she needs to find reasons to keep herself angry at you. It's easier for her to be angry at you than to look in the mirror and admit she has issues as well.
I guess so. Thanks Thornton.

So today we left the house for good. W said she felt it was good to finally move on. I agreed, but later I told her I also thought it was sad and heartbreaking. Not acting "as if" I guess. But she still has a lot of power over me when she is physically close by. But we both manage to skip R talk. My W acts as if she wants to forget I exist and move on. And I want to avoid pursuit and acting emotional and needy.
When we were waiting for the money transfer at the RE agent, she even started to talk to me about her work when we had wanted for an hour. And she was upbeat, smiling! I just wanted to hug her and tell her how much I love her. sometimes it is a good thing that you usually avoid being emotional... I just kept the converation going and enjoyed talking to her, smiled back a little bit.

It is a little bit funny how she is watching songs in her car when I am near (as an example at pick up of D). When something comes up on her "break up playlist" that she do not want me to hear, she throw herself on the stereo. Like a sorg in local language translated to "I am going to find a better you".
I do not know if she is being considerate or if she feels some guilt or whatever. Well, that is not for me to mind read, right? :-) But I have started to look for it and smiles a little bit extra when it happens (like 5 times total so far since seperation).

I also laid new oak flor in my living room today with the help of a friend who is a carpenter. Never did that before so it was interresting.
Need some advice from a third party regarding my sitch. I really do not have anyone to discuss with.

In my country, dividing assets are done through each person taking their assets minus their debts. Then the value from each person is put together and then divided in 2. Personal stuff like clothes, jewlery and so on is exkluded. Also gifts and inheritance is excluded if it was expressed in written that is was to be excluded in case of future divorce (as an example). Debts are still personal and cannot pass on to someone else, but the value is accounted for.

This is to make sure that each person in a marriage leaves it with the same amount of net assets (more or less). There are of course exeptions from this main principle (as always).

W is currently pressing to get my to close the financial part asap without L since "we are reasonable ppl who can discuss and agree upon things", she told me today (since when?). But she did not want to sign anything, just transfer some money and register her as new car owner of my car (this was agreed upon before). I have told her that I want to do everything "by the book" to close it properly. Everything is easy to value and divide since there are not so much stuff. House, car, savings. Other stuff has been divided already. But.... I have student debts. That my L adviced was to be naturally included. I have been thinking about is alot since I found out about this, if it were morally correct of me to insist including them.

On one hand, it is my personal debt that I changed for personal knowledge. On the other hand, the money was spent on the two of us (living and food) and got me a job were I made substantially more money than her and supported us. Further complicating is that her father gave her money to partially pay for our home which she did.

W got really upset and anger today when I told her that I have debt, after she called my to press me today to finalize and speak up now it is was anything else than the car that were left to divide.

She also told me that she found it really offensive that I correct her about things, but my intentions today were to make sure that we are speaking about the same and correct thing since it is important. The problem is that I have corrected her in the past (I hate that I did it, mostly on autopilot) and I guess that it triggers alot of negative feelings in her.

As usual I started to break down during our conversation, bringing forth my anxious behaviour and Mr NG.


So what to do? Just give her the money and STFU to get us both to get on with our lives?

I am also thinking that if I do so, my normal thought since I want to support W and be Mr NG, I am giving her money to pay for her L to keep our D living with her permanently (I am starting to understand that we cannot agree on our D, which is also what my therapist is telling me).

I am sorry if this is hard to follow, writing on my phone with lousy grammar control.

Please give me a 2x4!
Also, the 180s I need to do for myself (and W of course) which partly comes into play here is:

- Be more assertive and sure of myself. When I got ill, I started to become really anxious and could not control it. I have always been partly anxious, but always kept it well under control and acted "as if" which really paid out for me until I crashed.
- Stop being a "know-it-all" and correct other ppl. I have a tendency to do it without really thinking about it, which I hate doing.
- Be more generous and less cheap/frugal. Have always been a bit frugal but when I crashed and became highly anxious, this part of me started to take over.
- Be more casual and social. I am an introvert but "learned to act as an extrovert" early. Only the ppl really close to me would describe me as an introvert. Aquintances would say I am quite extrovert. But the introvert personality traits took over more when I crashed.
- Excercise body and mind daily.
- Make sure that family always comes first. When I got ill, I had a hard time focus on anything outside of myself. Right now this is D, but would love for W to want to be included as well (as if that would happen...).


I am trying to be critical of myself in order to really see negative personality traits for what they really are. But also trying to be forgiving, which is hard...
Well go with being more assertive and stop being the nice guy. Let your W pay for this herself, if that's what she wants. Your only purpose is not to block BD. There's nothing that says that you have to fund it.
It's been status quo for a couple of days now. Spent time with D, running, going to the gym and bought a new car (W has my car at the moment and will keep it when divide of assets is complete). Been feeling well. Not much contact with W. She called me yesterday evening when I was at the gym. I told her I would call back afterwards. It was just regarding a minor change in our schedule for D4 so everything was fine.

However, I started this evening to read old texts between us from the months before BD, at BD and after. I am just stunned regarding how those texts started to change about 1,5 weeks before BD from W. Less emotions and more "business" as well as shorter and fewer. We went from planning our 10 year aniversary (since we got together) and our marriage aniversary (5years) to just complete shut down. I realize that I am not that sad after reading and analyzing. But that might come later this evening.

Mind reading is not good, but I am thinking that something must have happened suddenly that made W think that our R is unsolvable. But since the change was so rapidly and visably (afterwards), I just can't stop thinking that this can't be impossible. That feelings must still remain, beneath all that resentment.

I am being told in IC to give up hope and just go on with my life. However, that is not what I want. But still I must plan for a life alone and act as if. I have a hard time understanding how to drop the rope while still loving W and D.

It is still a rollercaster for me but it is gradually slowing down.
I remember feeling just like you do. How do you drop the rope when you still love someone?

I'll tell you what helped me. I framed it in my mind that I was showing W that I loved her by respecting her decision to leave me. To me, allowing W to move on and not fighting her on it or pressuring or trying to talk her out of it, was the most selfless, loving act I could do.
Heard that in IC this week as well when W didn't show for S13 counseling. It only confirms that your W is completely gone.
Quote:
Me on the other hand, burned out really bad at work and got a stress induced fatigue syndrome (do not know if the term is correct for US/UK). I’ve had the fatigue for almost 3 years now with fatigue, headaches, being stress sensitive, sensitive to light and noises, emotionally numb, depressive, difficulty to remember stuff as well as a generally low level of psychic endurance. I got better over time and has been working part-time for a while. I will hopefully be back at work full-time this autumn. The symptoms are still there but can be controlled most of the time.


I just wanted you to know that you are not alone, and there are others (like me) who suffer from this syndrome. In the US, it is called CFS (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome) and is often accompanied wth Fibromyalgia. It took many years before a lot of doctors in the US accepted, or believed, it was a "real" physical condition. Uninformed people can be extremely judgmental of those who suffer from either or both conditions.

Your W appears to be judgmental and uneducated about chronic fatigue. Some people are so severely affected they cannot hold down a full time job, participate in activities with their children, and miss some of the most important events in the family. Having a spouse who does not have empathy, causes more stress. My concern is that your W has a lot of resentment and coldness in her heart. If she sees you not measuring up to her expectations in a working man.........she will have little respect for you. At this point, your objective is not to appease your W.

There is nothing you can do to change your W. However, I think it was wrong what her lawyer did........and you should be represented by your own lawyer, or she will continue to take advantage of you. She went at you with her unreasonable terms (especially about the child) and you accepted it? I don't understand. Anyway, your priority has to be your health and your rights as the child's father. But, I don't know the laws where you live.
Hi Sandi,

Thank you for commenting on my sitch. I have been lucky not experiencing fibromyalgia but I have met others with these symptoms.

Well, I think that W is quite educated regarding CFS, but that the lack of progression has been hurting her and that the time length of my illness has been wearing her down. She has stated on occasion that it has to change, without really saying what. But I guess the entire sitch, to go back to what we once had.

I think that your comment regarding respect feels like spot on. I feel so disrespected, and still get told by W that it is the other way around. Like the world had been turned upside down on occasion. My W has a quite conservative view on family and I think she expected me to take care of our home and of her, as well as being the major "earner". Even though she know about my illness, I think that the coldness and resentment has been building up in her during the years anyway.

Regarding L-stuff: W went on quite hard in the beginning to get sole custody and visitation rights for me to be 2 hours every other week, or if it was every week. Do not even remember, so much happened in a short period of time. However I managed to get 2,5 days/W without spending nights in my home. I accepted that for the time being to avoid conflict and court. During the summer I have tried to get her to let our D sleep in my home without success. I will make a last try this weekend, otherwise it has to be court next since time is running out. I have asked her what the problem is,and the answer showen that she does not have any clear rational arguments, just emotional. Her Idea is that I have to get 100% healthy, stay that way for at least a year without any symptoms, then D might sleep one night at my home,

i got alot of advice about my sitch from terapists (family issues) and L and she has no legal right to do this. The only thing that could help W is that I wait too long to act and that D is considered used to live with W, that it is her "home".
Hi,

Took some heat from W today at D-exchange. I find it so hard to follow what she means, and she is. To making it easier to understand by explaining to me. Usually when D is near we act polite and nice towards each other. However, today when D could not hear us, W quickly said:

"I can't believe you are acting this disrespectful and and bad towards me. You are burning all bridges between us!"

And I do not know what she means. A couple of weeks ago she told me that I correct her at times at that it is disrespectful. I know I have done that in the past, but at that time I tried to do it nice to make sure that we were on the same pace in a law discussion. And afterwards I have been really careful to say anything that could be translated that way.

I have, however, restarted the discussion about were D will live going forward again. And I have not yet agreed upon Ws terms about dividing our assets.
I am really trying to dissect the past months to detect "bad behaviour" on my part. I have not yelled, called her things, been acting grumpy or anything like that at all during this process. I try to act "as if" and be happy and carefree. Bit of course my pain will come through on occasion.

Can I think about my sitch in some new way that would make me understand what W means?

I am thinking about validating her and tell her that she seems angry and frustrated. And ask her if she would like to visit a family therapist with me to be able to talk to each other. But on e other hand, I guess it is way to late to validate now....
Maybe you could try to share more here. Some people here are REALLY good at reading others and I don't think you share that much about your interactions. There is a possibility you are doing something which you don't notice yourself - however, it is possible that your W is just in a fog and keeps everything your fault while you are not doing anything wrong. For now and going on, just validate her feelings and say that you are sorry for making her feel that way.
Thanks!

Well, I do not really know what to share about since we do not speak much. Just a little bit regarding our D. W is also trying to talk me into dividing assets her way. Which I am stalling, telling her that I have to think about it. I have tried to not initiate anything with W (discussion, arguments etc) and just laying low.

If it is something it must be some kind of vibe or something like that. Or?

Yes, I agree about validating. I just got so confused today that I could not find anything to say really other than "I don't now what you mean?". I really wish she just could tell me what it is that I am doing to her.

She also said today that "she did not recognize me".

I will try to share more going forward. Hopefully there will be something more to share then.
My guess is that you're "disrespecting" her because you're not being a doormat, giving her everything she wants, and you're not curled up in a ball crying.
Hi,

A lot is happening in my sitch, nothing for the better. At least not right now but hopefully in the future. Took up the argumentation regarding seeing D more and get her to live with me in the end of last week. Has also started to initiate government mediation and hopefully W will agree to go there with me so we can start communicate again.
My W told me that she will not agree to increasing my time with D willingly so if I am sure about this then I have to go to court unless mediation is successful (I have a hard time believing it though). But I am not sure.... Sure that I want D in my life, being the best dad and also that she wants it and needs it. Which she expresses everytime we exchange her by trying to cling to me and begging me not to go (However W is clueless about this and seem to not notice it).
But it is the ongoing conflict with W that is constantly bringing me down and make me uncertain. Especially since I am experiencing her to communicate agrressively and trying to pressure me into agreeing with her and what she wants. So I really dread our communication when it is not just about our D.

I feel at my best when I do not communicate with W for a while or just some superficial communication at exchanges where I can just move on afterwards.

Tonight W will probably call me to discuss my requests (and probably tell me to engage her L instead) and respond to if she would agree to see a mediator. I will try to prepare what I should say and responses to things she would probably talk about.

I also suggested last week that we could go and see someone to get us to communicate better (not just mediator). However, I do not know if that was such a good Idea considering the current sitch. But it was heavily suggested by my therapist and seemed like a good Idea at the time.

The goal tonight is:
- Understand what W thinks I am constantly doing to offend W.
- Get her to consider government mediation and hopefully accept it on the spot. She has been uncertain in the past.
- Not accept rude or aggressive behaviour.


I was thinking about talking about how she is treating me and D, but that would probably just make everything else harder to accomplish right now.
About the DB-rules...

I have a hard time adjusting them to my sitch. Had to read through them again today to remember them instead of a mix of what I remembered about the rules and advices from all kinds of sitches on this site. W seems like a WAW, have to get away from our R and would probably prefer that I moved to the other side of the world (mindreading). Everything I do is seen as negative and mostly directed somehow at her. It is not my intention to be anything else than "nice and casual" when we meet but I find it hard to be self-aware about my appearance and really analyze it from outside.

Perhaps W finds it confusing that I am trying to be nice to her when I am also contesting her regarding D4 and financials? Like I am false? However, I try to seperate the sitch from W. I am capable of both being hurt/angry and loving/liking her.

I do not think there is someone else since she is spending almost all her time with D and has total focus on her. At least there is not anyone in the open.

We have been living apart since BD which is more than 4 months now. But we still meet regularly a couple of times every week because of D. I only contact W when it is something about D, like changing days or something like that. Or responding to her trying to contact me.


I interpret the rules broadly as:
- Improve yourself and be the S they want to be with and always wished for. But for yourself, because YOU want to be that person for the rest of your life.
- Try to avoid unneccessary contact with your spouse (sort of NC), act as if you are moving on with your life and only initiate when you really have to.
- Be calm and validate when you do communicate with S.
- Be nice like you would be to a collegue you do not know that well at work.
- Do not think or analyze what your S is doing or why he/she did/said something. Will just drive you crazy. See below...


So, the main problem for me is how to handle her being aggressive and mean (as I experience it) to me on occasion and at the same time accusing me for being mean to her. It has really thrown me off going forward and concentrating on myself and D. I am wondering time and time again what I am doing to offend her so much that she thinks I am "burning every bridge". I feel like I am shrinking when she is being aggressive towards me. Hopefully I will understand what she means when we talk tonight so I can adjust if it is justified.

I think it would be much easier to DB by the rules if we did not have any conflicts that upsets both of us...
I think you are doing a lot of mind reading. I also don't see any mention of detaching. If you detach, you won't worry about her being mean, if you are truly being nice. Let her feel that way. If you are consistent with being nice and give of positive energy, she will have no choice but to see you in that light. She's feel as thou she has to be mean to you, because if she doesn't you will take it the wrong way and think her mind has changed. Don't try to figure her out. keep DBing and becoming better, time and consistency will have an impact. Her changes won't be immediate, and neither will yours. Just like your understand DBing is taking time, her seeing a new you will take time.
SwHubby,

Also, her brain and mind has seen you a light for so long, that she can only associate negative perception with you and your actions. Something I do with my WW, is everytime she says something negative, I say, "you always see me in a negative light but, that's not who I am." I also say, "you keeping placing negative actions on me, but I think you should look at me thru a different lens." At first I thought it was bouncing off of her, then one day I was doing something and she was trying to correct me, and then she corrected her self and said , I shouldn't just assume, you will do something wrong.

I made those statements with confidence. Sometimes we can speak certain things into existence.
Originally Posted By: SwHubby

The goal tonight is:
- Understand what W thinks I am constantly doing to offend W.


I wouldn't go there right now. You're negotiating the divorce terms and visitation with your D, so that needs to be 100% of your focus. Set aside DB'ing for now and focus on this solely as a business-like transaction. You can delve into feelings (offending W) later when this is all resolved.

Quote:
- Get her to consider government mediation and hopefully accept it on the spot. She has been uncertain in the past.


Not sure about "on the spot", but perhaps give her a deadline (a few days maybe) to decide.

Quote:
I was thinking about talking about how she is treating me and D, but that would probably just make everything else harder to accomplish right now.


See my first paragraph up above, this convo needs to wait as well.
Update: she agreed instantly to mediation. It threw me off a little bit. And then there was not really anything she wanted to talk about. I did not discuss anything else, since it felt like a good conversation and those are not common.

And it seemed like it was a good decision reading AS comments now. ☺️

AS: Well, I guess that I become quite scared when W makes comments such as "burning all bridges", "destroying everything" and so on. Make me feel like it is definitive and for all future, and I don't even know why. That makes it hard for me to ignore.
But I should concentrate on what is important for now, as you say. And be business-like. That makes it easier for me to come since I am a quite rational guy. It has worked previously at some level.

Joejoe: Thank you for commenting! I will try that one going forward and see if it can have some effect.
SW,

I remember one time my WAW telling me she no longer loved me. And that from previous experience, once she had lost those feelings, they never come back.

Anyways, she now claims I'm the love of her life and she made a huge mistake leaving me.

When they are in walk-away mode, beleive nothing they say.
Thanks Thornton, it feels assuring to read.

Detaching is really hard and I am getting sucked in time and time again. Like AS wrote in some thread: LBss do not drop the rope during the first year, but live in denial. Well, I am definitely not living in denial. 😬

Wow, I must update myself on your story again. Seems like a lot has happened.
Originally Posted By: SwHubby
Update: she agreed instantly to mediation. It threw me off a little bit.


Great, congrats!!

Quote:
And then there was not really anything she wanted to talk about. I did not discuss anything else, since it felt like a good conversation and those are not common.


Perfect!

Quote:
I guess that I become quite scared when W makes comments such as "burning all bridges", "destroying everything" and so on. Make me feel like it is definitive and for all future, and I don't even know why.


Well like Thornton said, that is how she feels NOW. And yes, she is convinced that is how she will feel forever. But it is very likely she WILL have a change of heart sometime later. It happens a lot.
Thanks, it felt great! However, expectations are riding wild right now so I have to remind myself to lower them... It could be that she is tactical before going to court to show how cooperative she is. Could be that she really want to find a solution going forward. Anyway, I will need to prepare myself and not expect any particular behaviour from her.

Easier said then done!
Time for some minor update, nothing is happening in my sitch right now really. We are waiting for mediation regarding our D which starts in a few weeks. Neither of us has brought it up or wanted to discuss it. We do get along but both of us always concentrate on our D and puts her in between us at exchange. We also met at an event at Kindergarten (W wanted to join, it was "my" day) and it was like a long exchange.

I feel like it is easier to give her an authentic smile when I see W. Guess that GAL, excercise, no fights or arguments and ot much time together has effect over time. But it has taken a long time to get here, 5 months since BD and moving out approaches.

Sounds like W left D at parents this weekend and went somewhere to see friends (comments from D about her weekend). I instantly start to think about OM, but that does not really get my spinning at the moment. I am still able to keep myself calm. I had some really good days lately and started to plan an actual new life. But I think that I still feel deep down that it will be allright in the end (with W, family etc).

Now I am on my way to the gym, wish you all luck with your sitches!
Update of my sitch.

I have not been around for quite some time now, not even reading threads from other ppl like I did previously. I guess that may be a part of the healing process, not obsessing over divorces and looking for tips & tricks all the time.

It is beginning to be a more calm atmosphere when I and W see each other, which is a couple of times every week because of D going between us. We also meet in mediation every other week which has resulted in me recieving confirmation about the goals about D that I thought she had. Me being a "every other weekend dad" in the distans future...
I have managed to get an extra day starting next week but no sleep overs yet. Does not feel good about it but it is what it is.

Have a temporary (I hope) set back regarding GAL. Lots to do at work and then being sick for the past week. So I have not been going to the gym or running much for the past weeks. Being with D has been great and last weekend we had a small birthday gathering together with my family. :-)

Think I need to take a step back and plan again in order to get myself back on track again.
Glad you are doing better. Why accept every other weekend? A year ago, that’s what I’d get too but the folks here challenged me to get 50-50 and that’s what I’m likely to get (fingers crossed on final negotiations). I️ had to bargain away some other things but at the end of the day, time with the kids was most important to me.
Hi everyone, it is time for an update.

I tried to do it before and started writing but never got to the finish line and posted it. But I come here from time to time to check up on the forum and reading some threads.

I had a hard time this fall and fell back in my recovery for a couple of weeks due to stress, but got back up again. My main focus has been my daughter and I feel that we have come closer to each other more and more since BD. Which feels great. smile

I still suffer from illness but I am working more conciously to control it instead of the other way around. Recently I contacted a coach to get help with mental thinking, food and excercise. That has been helpful. I realize that I have been beating myself down so much since I got ill a few years ago and work slowly to raising my standards for myself.

My wife and I attended mediation and started communicating again. It is tough since we still have quite different agendas but at least we have been able to start co-parenting a little bit. W still thinks that it would be best for D to live full time with her, but I get more and more time with her. Especially since she is asking W for it. She started sleeping over at my apartment before Christmas and will do so every other weekend to begin with, but I am working on extending it and I am hopeful. I had a hard time deciding if I should go to court or not but in the end decided to go for diplomacy. For now. And it is paying off, but it is slow way.

Right now W and D are on vacation with W:s family for a couple of weeks but will come home again this weekend. I really miss them and look forward to meet them. A couple of days ago I noticed a post W did on social media about how tough this year had been and how happy and proud she was of herself etc. It really got to me, but not as much as it would have done a few months ago. I guess I am slowly getting detached but I am not there yet.

GALing is not going great, but it is not terrible either. I have a hard time connecting with ppl. My closest friends live on the other side of the country and my family as well. Moved to this town to live close to W:s family.

I excercise a lot (almost daily), eating healthy and getting enough sleep. And spend time with D. Other than that, it is mostly work and spending time at home.

Best regards,
SwHubby
Big day today, D is coming home with W from a 2,5 week vacation abroad! Just got a text from W from the airport saying that they are in the country again. We will get in touch later to see if there will be time and space for me to come visiting today, maybe go out in the snow and play with D for an hour or two. We have not scheduled for her to come to me until Tuesday.

Made an update above, but also want to journal a little bit about my improvements and goals for the next 6 months. It is the first time I write them down so they could be adjusted going forward but I gotta start somewhere. ;-)

- Firstly, adjust my language. Stop using the words: ”try”, ”maybe”, ”perhaps” in regards to me setting and reaching goals and change my thinking and behaviour. I do it automatically. I am just setting me up for failure using those words, making it ok for me to not reach my goals. It is not hard to try excercising 4 times/week.... Just had to edit this post before posting, therefore it went up as the new no1 goal. :-)

- Adjust my thinking about the divorce, which will be finalized now when W is back home again. It is not the end of my life, but rather an opportunity to change from a person I did not like and a relationship dynamic that set us up for failure (which I contributed a lot to building). I get time, which I did not understand previously when I read about it here. Changes cannot simply be made in a month or two... If I want a great relation with W that gives us joy and energy (no matter how that will look like: lovers, friends, co-parents) and have great life with or without W, I have to make that happen by evolving. It took us a couple of years to tear our relationship down piece by piece so building something will take a lot of time as well. Especially now when trust on both sides are damaged.

- At least once a week think about what I am thankful for. For months I ”knew” that my life was over and that it would be grey for now on. However, of course that is not the case.

- Change the dynamic in my relation with W. Go from negative, tense and uncertain to bring positive vibrations into it. Be proactive about D4 and her life and plan for brief check-ups every now and then build cooperation rather than us being 2 parents on our own exchanging D between us. Talk about our D4 regularly, and let W have her life on her own. I will not trip on egg shells when I see W anymore. I want to bring a happy me with no spoken or unspoken demands on her. I will not discuss how I feel in detail (easy to do when she has asked me how I feel in the past) other than ”fine”. Go from an act to really mean it.

- keep excercising 4 times/week. Hitting the gym and going for runs. Will participate in a half-marathon (my first) with my brothers in May. The goal: just getting across the finish line and complete it.

- Make more room in my apartment for my D and make it more personal for both of us. I found it hard to decorate it for D specifically (and for me as well). It is quite minimalistic (white, grey, not packed with furnitures, just a few pics of me and D on the walls) but started to work on it with new lamps, rug, kid corner in the living room after the holidays. Also looking into upgrading from 2 rooms to 3 in the end of the year or the beginning of next to give D a room of her own.

- Keep increasing the time I spend with D and especially increase the time she is living with me (including sleeping here). I am still going for every other week as an end goal and will keep on trying the diplomatic way with W since it seems to work when I do it gradually over time. i still senaste that W is scared about D not living with her full time but I can also sense it changing for her gradually over time. W is talking herself about increasing which is a good sign.

- meet new ppl to make friends. Find a way to naturally meet interresting ppl and befriend them. This may be the hardest goal for me since I am keeping to myself and has cirkel of friends, family and aquintances elsewher in the country. And it has been a long time since I met and befriended new ppl. Always keeping the distance.

- Value my own word and do what I say. I have not done it for a long time, especially for myself.


Does anyone have a suggestion for where I can meet new ppl? I was thinking about finding some sort of class, maybe cooking or language. My cooking skills could really need some improvement, :-)

But first, it is time to go out for an icy run. :-)
SW,

I used meetup. I have the app on my phone. I met some really amazing people. I went to some really cool events as well.
I second meetup. It's a great resource, and you'll find lots to do on it.
Those are some great goals.

I have a tiny observation, make your goals in the active present voice as if you have already achieved it.

So I am enjoying exercising 4 times a week and becoming stronger.

I have a joyous relaxed attitude when I play with my D.

Today I am grateful for.............

Also drop the definitive, I will, must etc

Instead choose to do a goal. Choosing removes internal resistance, ordering yourself to do something brings out the won't shan't in all of us.

So I choosing to meet lots of interesting people and naturally new and deeper friendships are developing based on shared interests. This is coming easily to me.

My thoughts

V
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