I have been lurking around these forums in the last month and I finally decided to put my story here so that I could get some perspective and feedback.
I am 36, W 33, Married 10 years, together 12 years, two kids - S 8yrs / D 6 yrs.
2 months ago W said that she has been unhappy in the marriage for at least 5 years and she wants a separation. This came out of the blue for me. I know that we weren't doing amazing, but it never felt like it was this catastrophic. I have been through some really rough challenges in my life and I know that I had become emotionally distant over the years. Specifically in the last few years when some family issues blew up. I thought that I could just handle everything myself emotionally and mentally, but I was in depression and this affected my W. She said that I most likely didn't love her and that I would never leave her even if I was unhappy out of loyalty. She said she has felt unloved by me in the last many years and that she still cares about me and loves me, but is not in love with me anymore.
To add to this, we have recently gone through some financial stress. We never communicated well about finances and I was under a lot of stress at work in the last six months where I dropped the ball on managing our finances properly resulting in us not being able to pay down some debt as we had agreed upon. She will once in a while get all worked up about finances, but she never pays attention to how much we have, what we spend, and what to plan. So, I am usually the one who ends up doing it - and this is fine, but there has never been a real partnership about managing this together.
We also bought a house last year and now we are trying to figure out how to keep it for at least another year so we don't lose money, but we can still pay down the debt in a timely manner and manage a separation. I suggested a plan to her that would require us developing that communication and partnership over the next year so that we could pay all the debt off and even save some money, but she wants both of us to take care of stuff separately rather than figure out how we can work together on this.
So, after she asked for separation and stated some of the reasons, I immediately went into IC as I recognized that I need to get help for myself, even if the marriage isn't saved. The IC has been helpful so far and I am going to continue it for a while. She plans to do IC and we agreed to do MC, but I have left it in her court to set that up. I made some mistakes early on like begging and pleading, but I have stopped that and I am trying to follow Sandi's rules and doing a 180 that feels authentic.
I have told her that I am in love with her, I don't want this separation or a divorce, and she hasn't budged on her position on this. She is running hot and cold at times and I am keeping a cool equilibrium for now. She has kissed me a few times and spent the night in bed with me (no sex), super friendly at times and then cold at other times - I know to expect that and not read into it too much.
So, I am going to move out really soon and we are both committed to making it work for the kids where we have them 50/50. I am a super involved dad and I wouldn't imagine it any other way. I took time off in my career to raise them and both my kids are very attached to me, as well as their mom.
In terms of following Sandi's rules and doing a 180, I am working on GAL - I have lots of things that I put on the back burner for myself as I didn't have time, but now I can do them which is fantastic. I am trying to detach myself and have no expectations. As one of her main reasons for wanting the separation is that she felt unloved and I was emotionally distant, how do I do a 180 where I show her that I am there for her and follow some of Sandi's rules? Also, after I move out, I am afraid that if I go dark, it will only confirm her thoughts about me being uncaring and emotionally unavailable for her. But I am also not in a place where I can be her emotional safety net and best friend.
I am trying to strike a balance between what I need to do to move on - I am assuming that she won't want to revive the marriage, but I do hold out a tiny bit of hope - just enough to be optimistic but not so much that it stops me from GAL.
I am just unsure how to proceed once I move out.
I appreciate any feedback on this and I am more than happy to provide more details and clarify.
Thanks,
Maika
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
I am in the middle of a situation myself so I don't have any success stories however you must 100% let go. Stop the begging, pleading etc. no I love you's nothing. My wife moved out 3 weeks ago, essentially told me the same thing. The only time I speak to her is for kid pick up, I have 2 D's 8 and 6. I keep myself busy every night, hit the gym, have been noticed by some ladies which has boosted my confidence so really at this point in time I don't care. I know who I am as a man, father and husband. If she doesn't want it there are a million ladies that would. She can't view you as this clingy person with no life. Give it time and see if she comes around.
If you move out go dark and initiate nothing except about the kids. Show her you are a desirable man that is worth having in her life!
Also, you can still be there for her and support her without being needy in my opinion.
Why are you the one moving out?
@ SmokeyD
Thanks for your encouraging words. I am hurting a lot and just trying to get to an emotional equilibrium when I have to engage with her. I stopped all pursuing and showing any signs of being miserable or being cold to her. I have to GAL and that is what I am going to focus on. I know what I bring to a relationship and what kind of father and husband I am. I recognize that I had not dealt with my own emotional baggage from life events and I am working on it during IC. I have to do it for myself to get some peace and happiness for myself and my children. I will go dark once I move out because that is the only way I can see moving forward in the short term for my own emotional healing and doing self-care. I just think she blames everything on me and doesn't recognize fully how she has contributed to this, but if we do MC, we will explore that.
@ Kaizen
I am moving out because it works better financially. But, I am the one giving up the house and everything that comes with it and starting from scratch basically. Trying to find a rental place for now for the short term. Really [censored], but there is no way around it financially right now.
No worries, man it [censored] but as soon as you feel in control of the situation and less dependent on her actions I think you will feel better. When my wife told me she wanted to move out in 2 months I told her I couldn't walk around on pins and needles that she if she wanted to go to make it happen. In a week she had moved out and all of her stuff is gone.
I have read in here from many different people that at this time MC won't work. You may want to get other folks opinions. This site has helped me out tremendously so keep reading and blogging.
IMO this is really all about your self-confidence and as soon as you get your mojo back and feel like a MAN you will do much better. Detaching and GALing is so important, just go talk to some ladies (not dating or anything) just get that swagger back!
I am moving out because it works better financially. But, I am the one giving up the house and everything that comes with it and starting from scratch basically.
Maika,
What if someone told you that it's likely your wife is having an affair? Would that change your mind about who moves out of the house?
Yes, this site has been a boon and I have learned so much just in a few short weeks, which has helped me emotionally and mentally. I am going to focus on GAL and working on my self-confidence. I am hitting the gym on the regular soon and working on my hobbies, which I had put on the side.
I am not sure if MC will work at this point, but she has said she wants to do MC. I suggested that she do IC first and then we can do MC. But, I am not interested in doing MC if she doesn't want to work on the Marriage. I just don't see the point in that, but let's see what happens. It is in her court to initiate this and I am going to hang back and work on myself.
I am fairly certain she's not having an EA or a PA. She wouldn't be able to hide that well. But again, I had no idea our M was at this stage so who knows. If she was having an affair, then that would definitely change things up in terms of me moving out of the house. However, she earns more than me and I would not be able to financially sustain the house, but she can for now - just barely. So, to not upset the sitch for the kids, me moving out makes sense so that the kids still have this home.
Why are you the one moving out?
I agree, she is the one that wants to change, then let her move out and accept the change. If you both split up, then the house gets split, so you both are responsibly no matter who lives there. Not only that, if you should go to court, then how would it look that YOU left the house where the kids reside?
If she wants Marriage counseling, what is her reasoning for wanting it besides working on the M? I'd say go, just clearly state your goals (that you are there to ave the marriage and nothing else). No matter what else she says, her wanting a MC symbolizes her wanting to fix what is wrong.
@ KGuy
Yes, you make a good point. I wouldn't want to leave the house without a separation agreement because it doesn't look good if I leave the matrimonial home voluntarily. We are meeting with our real estate agent today to see what the chances are to sell our house and break even and not go in further debt. We also went to see some rental condos yesterday and she couldn't take it as the reality of her decision was right in front of her - taking the kids out of this beautiful home we have and moving them into a small condo. So, let's see what happens. She just texted me to say that she doesn't want to rush into anything and we can make changes when I am comfortable. I am going on a trip with the kids tomorrow for a week and then I will consult a lawyer to make sure that if I do move out, I can protect my custody and access rights with the kids. On top of dealing with the M bombshell, all of this other stuff is just so insane.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks Cadet. I am going to get the books as soon as I can.
Hello Maika! Welcome to the forums! Your story is pretty typical of the situations here unfortunately. Please read Sandi's threads and posts in particular, she was a WAW that eventually returned to the M and her comments can give you some really great insight into what your W is thinking and feeling right now.
2 months ago W said that she has been unhappy in the marriage for at least 5 years
Maybe, but probably not. WAS's do tend to exaggerate on this stuff and speak in absolutes- I've -never- been happy, we've -always- had problems, etc. It certainly didn't happen overnight, but she probably wasn't checked out for that long.
I have been through some really rough challenges in my life and I know that I had become emotionally distant over the years. Specifically in the last few years when some family issues blew up. I thought that I could just handle everything myself emotionally and mentally, but I was in depression and this affected my W.
Yes a lot of us can relate to that. As men we're not used to sharing feelings, we feel like we need to "protect" our loved ones from the pain we're going through so we internalize it. Unfortunately to them it looks like we're being secretive and distant instead of protective.
She said that I most likely didn't love her and that I would never leave her even if I was unhappy out of loyalty. She said she has felt unloved by me in the last many years and that she still cares about me and loves me, but is not in love with me anymore.
Well, the good news is there is hope! You can restore the love and your M. It takes a lot of hard work though. And patience!
So, I am going to move out really soon and we are both committed to making it work for the kids where we have them 50/50.
Listen, I know you think that's the best financially, but you really need to think long and hard about that choice. Your W is the one that wants to end the M. Why do YOU have to be the one to deal with the huge inconvenience of moving? Why do YOU have to be the alien when you visit your own kids in your own home? Why do YOU have to suffer all the changes? The answer is you don't. I understand that you can't afford it on your own, but it sounds like your W really can't either so at some point it's going to need to be sold if the D pushes forward. If you read Sandi's posts she talks a lot about how the WAW has lost all respect for her H. The H has lost command of the household and is no longer in power and control, and to make matter worse, when most H's are BD'd they turn into emotional wrecks which further cements their position as not having their s*** together in the WAW's eyes. To me leaving the LBS leaving the house with his tail between his legs is just the ultimate debasement of his masculinity. So just think about that decision and see if there's a way you can stay. When my W decided we needed to separate, I told her I would prefer that she stay and work on the M but I understood that wasn't what she wanted and would respect her decision. A few days later she asked why she was the one that had to leave, I told her that SHE was the one that wanted out of the M, and if she did then SHE would have to go. I told her she was welcome to stay, but again, if she did then my boundary was she needed to work on the M. She never asked again, she left about a month later.
I am a super involved dad and I wouldn't imagine it any other way. I took time off in my career to raise them and both my kids are very attached to me, as well as their mom.
That's great! Keep that up. It's not going to draw your W back, but it's important for the kids. What WILL draw your W back is for you to become strong, independent, attractive. Think about what things you can do along those lines. Read DB, lots of great tips for accomplishing that.
As one of her main reasons for wanting the separation is that she felt unloved and I was emotionally distant, how do I do a 180 where I show her that I am there for her and follow some of Sandi's rules?
Look at the stickies and read the thread on validation. Validating your W is absolutely the best thing you can do right now to rectify those complaints. Validation is absolute gold, it has changed my relationship with nearly everyone in my life. The beauty of it is it has nothing to do with pursuit, or being a doormat, or opening yourself up emotionally or anything like that.
Also, after I move out, I am afraid that if I go dark, it will only confirm her thoughts about me being uncaring and emotionally unavailable for her. But I am also not in a place where I can be her emotional safety net and best friend.
That is the fear of most LBS's, but you need to understand the WAW's mindset. That's why you should read Sandi's posts. Your W wants NOTHING from you right now, so giving her time and space is exactly what she wants. Don't be cold or indifferent, just quit pursuing her.
Thank you for the detailed response @ AnotherStander.
The perspective around me moving out and not her was really insightful. It has gotten me thinking quite a bit and I think that I am going to discuss this with her - about her moving out and not me. I think that's the right move now that I think about it because I have clearly communicated to her that I don't want any of this, and I respect where she's at and her decision. So, she has to move out to figure this out for herself.
I am going to let it sit for a bit and think about how I am going to phrase it. Also, the validation tips are excellent. I will be putting them in my responses asap.
Will keep the community posted on how things go. Not much action for the next week as I will be away with the kids, but let's see how she handles being home alone without any of us for that amount of time.
She came home and is being very friendly - it's just another day of going hot and cold. I am keeping my cool and not playing the pursuit and distance game and keeping Sandi's rules in mind.
I have decided that I am going to talk to her about her moving out and not me based on the feedback from my post. But, if she wants to stay, I am going to ask for an in-house separation and splitting the finances down the middle. This way we can keep the house and maintain finances and pay down debt.
I don't think I am in the place where I can say that she can stay only if she wants to work on the M. I don't think she's there yet to work on it. But by developing boundaries for an in-house separation, it will be good for the kids to maintain the same routine, but I can still GAL and not be financially stressed.
I am leaving tomorrow for ten days on a trip with the kids so I won't talk about this until I am back. I want her to experience life without me and see how it looks - I don't think it will change anything significantly for her, but at least she gets a quick look on how this could turn out if she wants to fully separate and move towards a D.
I will probably restart journaling when I am back but any comments or feedback will always be appreciated. Thanks already for the quick perspective and insight from various posters.
Met with our real estate agent this evening and decided to put the house up on the market. W is broken up about it, but this decision all hinged on her wanting a separation. So, conversation about who moves out is now basically moot unless the house doesn't sell for a price that we are comfortable with. Luckily, we are in a sought out neighbourhood so we might get a good deal. Lets see.
Good!!! Let her be broken up about it. Don't comfort or words of encouragement. Allow the reality of her decisions set in. It may seem harsh, but the WW has to learn that her actions has consequences.
I don't think I am in the place where I can say that she can stay only if she wants to work on the M. I don't think she's there yet to work on it.
I should clarify that I knew my W wasn't there either, but the idea is that I was giving her a choice and it was her decision to make. Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough" is where the concept comes from, he says the WAS feels caged in and you have to open the cage door. You do not kick them out of the cage, you just open the door and leave the choice up to them as to whether they want to fly off or not. So don't kick her out, just give her the choice and tell her you will respect her decision whatever it is.
I am leaving tomorrow for ten days on a trip with the kids so I won't talk about this until I am back. I want her to experience life without me and see how it looks - I don't think it will change anything significantly for her, but at least she gets a quick look on how this could turn out if she wants to fully separate and move towards a D.
Please understand that it isn't going to affect her at all. I know that hurts to hear, but you need to take a long-term view. She simply is not going to miss you after 10 days apart or probably even 10 months. This is a marathon, not a sprint.
Met with our real estate agent this evening and decided to put the house up on the market. W is broken up about it, but this decision all hinged on her wanting a separation.
Was that your decision, hers, or a joint decision?
I should clarify that I knew my W wasn't there either, but the idea is that I was giving her a choice and it was her decision to make. Dobson's book "Love Must be Tough" is where the concept comes from, he says the WAS feels caged in and you have to open the cage door. You do not kick them out of the cage, you just open the door and leave the choice up to them as to whether they want to fly off or not. So don't kick her out, just give her the choice and tell her you will respect her decision whatever it is.
Yes, that makes sense. I have basically been doing that but not as explicitly. I will use careful language to get that point across more effectively.
Please understand that it isn't going to affect her at all. I know that hurts to hear, but you need to take a long-term view. She simply is not going to miss you after 10 days apart or probably even 10 months. This is a marathon, not a sprint.
I totally know that intellectually, but emotionally I was hoping that being away might have some quick effect. Yes, but preparing for a marathon for sure.
Was that your decision, hers, or a joint decision?
It's a decision that is mostly been dictated by our financial situation. However, if the house doesn't get a price that we like, then there is the plan B of someone moving out. I was initially going to move out, but now I will turn it around and ask her to do that if we have to go to Plan B. She has previously mentioned that it would be one of us moving out, so this wouldn't be a shock to her that I would ask her to do that. I need to stand my ground and this will one of the things that will be part of it.
Travel Update:
W has been messaging me to talk to the kids every day, which I have done. Any conversation that I have with her has been very short - I have kept it pleasant and straight forward. I know she has been doing a few things for her work and uni, but I haven't asked about anything at all. I am not messaging her and only responding to messages about her wanting to talk to the kids. I am putting Sandi's rules into practice and I have a game plan when I get back to put GAL into full swing.
In the meantime, I am with my extended family and we are having a great time and I am trying to keep all of this outta my head and just enjoy spending time with family and doing things with the kids.
Sitch Update:
Got back from vacation last Saturday with kids. W picked us up at airport and we drove 5 hours to drop kids off at the in-laws for a few weeks of summer break. Spent the night at the in-laws and she asked me if she could share the bed with me, to which I said yes. She just wanted to be close I guess. Drove back with W for 7 hours to get back home. Drive was alright. She informed me that she already got a new place to move right away. Not rude or mean, just letting me know. I said that I was glad she got a place in the school catchment area so that the kids school year is secured.
Most of the drive was quiet, but not unpleasant. We were chit chatting a bit about things here and there.
So, we are putting up the house this week on the market and will see the offers that we get. I have started looking for a place for myself as I can't afford the house on my income. I won't get something until the house is sold - in case it doesn't, we have agreed on a backup financial plan that will allow me to stay in the house and she will assist in some of the finances.
Yesterday evening, she was packing stuff up to move to her new place and I offered to help, but she didn't take me up on it. So, instead of doing what I would have done - which is help her anyway - I went and started watching some tv. An hour later, she comes in and asks if she can hang out and watch tv with me. I am in the guest room and I watch tv from the bed. She spent the night (no sex). She just wanted to be physically close and we kissed a few times. In the morning, we kissed a few times again and she stayed physically close and cuddled, which was really nice. No R talk or anything, just spending some time together.
I am not sure if this was the right thing to do, but I believe that the physical closeness is not hurting the situation and I am by no means indicating that this physical closeness means that things are getting better to her. I am just being in the moment with her and leaving it at that. As long as we're under the same roof, and she's not in a EA or PA, I am going to enjoy these moments.
However, once she leaves, which should be by early August - we can't move some of the furniture out while the house is being shown as empty houses are not as attractive for buyers - I am going to do my version of going dark.
I want to put into place what a physical separation truly means and establish boundaries so that she doesn't have the same type of access to me that she has now.
She has asked me to go to counselling with her. To which I said that she needs to go to IC first and then we'll see in a few months if MC is the right option. I don't want to go into the MC if there is no effort on her part to salvage the M. But, we'll see what happens.
I am going to continue my GAL'ing and I have been pleasant and upbeat, but not initiated any conversations about R or being affectionate. I am just reciprocating right now and not escalating. I am also working on validation as much as I can, but not being her emotional safety net either.
I don't know how the next year will be, but I am feeling less angry and looking forward to figuring things out for myself and getting back to activities that I had deferred for so long.
If anyone has any suggestions or wants clarification, let me know.
Thanks
I think you're doing fine Maika. The question about closeness/ intimacy/ sex comes up now and then and the general consensus here is if you can do it without it hurting YOU then go for it. Just understand, it probably isn't changing anything. Your W is done for now and it's not going to change her plan to leave. I sat in MC with my W and listened to ILYBINILWY and "I'm just done" and "I don't want to give him any hope because there isn't any" but then "I still want to have sex with him though." Confusing to say the least. We did continue to have sex until she moved out.
She has asked me to go to counselling with her. To which I said that she needs to go to IC first and then we'll see in a few months if MC is the right option. I don't want to go into the MC if there is no effort on her part to salvage the M.
Good, I think that was exactly the right thing to say.
@AnotherStander
Oh man! that scenario you went through about sex sounds hella confusing. That would totally make me mentally trip. Thanks for your feedback about the physical stuff during this weird time. It is definitely strange.
So W comes home and we briefly chat about the house. Stagers came in today to put furniture in and pretty up the place. Afterwards I got a glass of wine and hung out in the patio - I am basically doing what I want to do and also not hang around her too much if I don't need to interact with her for some thing.
Finished my wine and went to the guest room and few minutes later she comes by telling me she's going out to meet a colleague about some work business. I don't know if it's true or not, but I said that was cool and hope she has a good time.
She then says "you are so quiet these days. you don't say much."
To which I replied "Oh! you want to talk about something?"
She says "no, not really"
And then she leaves to get ready and I continue what I am doing. I was pleasant and spoke about things that needed to be talked about. I am certainly not interested in playing her best buddy, but me being chill and interacting when we need to discuss something is kinda messing with her I guess.
I am trying to detach and drop the rope basically. I am obviously not there 100% yet, but I am pretending well enough that it is coming across as genuine.
I dunno if she's genuinely going out to meet a colleague about work stuff or if this is something else. Part of me is screaming inside, but I am playing it cool on the outside. I feel like if she is having an A, I am not sure how I will handle the anger. But I am thinking about it so that I don't backslide.
At this point I just want her to leave and settle in her new place so I can just figure my own [censored] out and go dark as needed. I feel a bit fed up.
W just got back home from her evening meet and saw me putting my shirt back on. She asks me "Are you going out?"
To which I replied "In a little bit"
She doesn't say anything and then she goes to do some chore and in five minutes asks me to pick something up for the house. It is clearly late and no way a store carrying this specific item is open. Clearly a way to get me in a conversation.
For good measure, I google the item and it is only available at a specialty store which is closed. I tell her that.
She says "so you're going out to meet x (a mutual friend)?"
I say 'No"
She says "who are you going to meet so late in the evening"
I say "maybe I'm not going out to meet anyone" calmly.
She says nothing, but I can see she is not happy with my response and I just walk away.
This is the second time in the last few weeks i have gone out in the evening without giving specifics and it is getting to her. Just going out to see a movie by myself that I've been wanting to see, but she doesn't need to know that.
W is fishing for info and I am giving away nothing right now.
Ok! Just got back home and W left me a note saying:
"It's frustrating that you don't talk much. I get it, but what am I supposed to do? Also, you don't have to lie to me about being out with someone. It's weird. You do what you want. No matter what, you can't pretend I don't exist."
Now I'm feeling a bit bad about this, but am I doing something wrong here? I am not pursuing her and being chill while we are under the same roof. Clearly this is getting to her.
Any advice?
No. You aren't doing anything wrong. In fact, I think you're doing everything exactly right, Maika.
Don't backslide now just because your W is starting to feel uncomfortable with the consequences of her choices. She fired you as her H and thus gave up her right to know your whereabouts. Let her spin. Don't give her any information. Don't even mention her note to her.
Keep doing exactly what you're doing.
Thanks for the feedback Train.
I did speak to her this morning being chill and just validated her feelings, nothing more. I didn't commit to acting differently or letting her know where I might be at any given time.
At this point, I am working on validation (she felt good, I could tell from her face), detachment, and GAL.
She is still spinning and it's good. I am being friendly, upbeat, and doing whatever I want to do.
I will keep the community here posted. Part of me felt good seeing the note from her, but I know I need to work more on my detachment.
^^^What Train said^^^
Oh man! that scenario you went through about sex sounds hella confusing. That would totally make me mentally trip. Thanks for your feedback about the physical stuff during this weird time. It is definitely strange.
Yeah it was strange. Plus she said it to the MC, which was really out of character for her. She never talked openly like that about sex. This is the woman that wanted to have sex in the master bedroom closet on the floor with the door closed to the closet AND the bedroom because she was so afraid the kids might hear us, LOL!
Wow, lots of pre-requisites for just having sex. If sound proofing was only cheaper
My W is also very conservative about sex, but if we ever get to MC I am going to see what she has to say about it, if anything at all.
The house is on the market as of today so let's see what happens. Should get some traction this week and next.
W has almost moved out of the matrimonial home to her new place. She is sleeping there and this is good. She is definitely emotional and the gravity of her decision is now hitting her. Last night she came over as we had to discuss finances and co-parenting and broke down crying. I validated her feelings but didn't comfort her. She walked in the kids bedrooms and cried and left the house in tears. As much as i hate seeing her like this, I am glad that the consequences of her decisions are hitting her slowly.
So we are pretty much physically separated, but will be more entangled until the house is sold and we finalize co-parenting plans and splitting up bills and other things.
Honestly, I feel a bit relieved that she's out, but I am really missing companionship and sleeping alone is just hard right now. I know it will get better and I am looking forward to getting my own place soon and having personal space that hasn't been shared with her.
Stay strong!! The hardest time for me is when I have our kids.....not knowing what she is doing. I have done a lot of reading on male confidence, listening to podcasts, etc to help. Reading other stories on this board has also helped with realizing that others are going through the same thing which helps me draw strength. I have also accepted that outside of DBing it is out of my hands now and I have surrendered to that. If you read my sitch Chase posted something that has helped him get through the times when you have your kids. I thought it was pretty cool and helped me last night.
So W wants to figure out what to tell the kids - S7 D5.
I am trying to find out advice about what is appropriate for this age group. But, I am struggling to understand how to do this and not make it look like it was a mutual decision. Definitely not my decision. Of course W and I are united in parenting and all that, and I don't want the kids to think of her as the 'bad guy', but I also don't want them to think I am cool with this.
Any advice on this would be appreciated.
Thanks SmokeyD
I will check out what Chase posted.
I was just going to respond to what you said your thread, but let me just put it here. You said you let your W off easy when you spoke to your kids about this.
I am just getting in this situation and not sure how to do it where I don't make this look like its a mutual decision, but not make her out to be the 'bad guy'..
What would you have done differently about this talk with your kids?
In general the advice I have seen on this board is that if the W wants out you don't tell your children that it was a joint decision you make her face the music (essentially be the bad guy). Mommy doesn't love Daddy any more or something like that, if she wants out then she needs to own it. I will say though with young children that might not be the right approach. When we told our children I operated from how could I make this easiest on my kids. Again from a DB standpoint that was probably wrong.
Right or wrong that is not how I approached it (I wasn't DBing)...we sat the kids down together and told them (mine are 8 and 6) that sometimes mommy and daddy's don't love each other any more and they have two houses. My W even referenced other friends that they have with parents that are divorced and the fun things they can do at mommy's apartment (movie theater and ice cream shop around the corner).
Yeah, I am leaning towards your approach.
I do want the W to face the music, but I don't want that at the expense of the kids wellbeing. I want to make this easier for them as possible. If my kids were older, maybe the DB approach would work better.
I will have to think on this and how to do it so that kids can handle it.
This is what my W put together to tell our kids. Our 6 yr old took it the hardest.....she didn't understand and asked if this was for the rest of her life.
Your daddy and I have been doing a lot of thinking. Sometimes mommies and daddies need to live apart...even if they love and care for each other. Like baby Jack’s parents.
So...we decided to get an apartment for mommy and you will live with both mommy and daddy.
Mommy and daddy are still going to talk, be friends, take care of each other, and MOST IMPORTANTLY, we’re going to love and care for YOU always!
You will have two houses to live in! You’ll have bedrooms in each place!
Mommy’s apartment is next to that movie theater we go to! There’s also an ice cream shop!
You’ll get to explore a new neighborhood that’s close to THIS house, YOUR school, Mommy’s work, J and J, A & R...
Tomorrow you’re going to go and see my apartment and I’ll need your help getting it ready for us to live in. Will you help me with that? Daddy will be helping too!
So W wants to figure out what to tell the kids - S7 D5.
I am trying to find out advice about what is appropriate for this age group. But, I am struggling to understand how to do this and not make it look like it was a mutual decision. Definitely not my decision. Of course W and I are united in parenting and all that, and I don't want the kids to think of her as the 'bad guy', but I also don't want them to think I am cool with this.
If the kids are too young they won't understand anyway. I had XW tell the kids the day after BD, so she didn't really have time to think it through. And even though she took the full responsability, the kids still love her.
Even though, D4 (D3 1/2 at the time) asked daddy today "why don't you like girls" daddy replied "oh I certainly like girls, why do you ask" D4 "cause' if you did, you and mummy could be married again".
She didn't understand jack at BD and NOW all of a sudden, I'm the fall guy. LOL
BTW, that comment from her hurt like h€ll....
BTW, that comment from her hurt like h€ll....
Oh man! That just tore my heart too. Only if you could tell your D where your heart was at and explain to her. Kids will trip you up like that and I don't know what my kids will say when we break it to them. I feel like a raging tiger right now wanting to protect my kids from this and her shattering their lives and the marriage.
Thanks SmokeyD for sharing how you and your W did it. Kids are away at grandparents right now so we have a couple of weeks before we have to do this. I am going to do whatever to protect them and make this as easy as possible for the kids. Of course it's not going to be easy, but at this point I care more about how my kids will deal with this than making the W face the music.
Marriage anniversary coming up next week. I am planning on completely ignoring it and not sending any message to my W about this. If she sends something, maybe I'll reply with something generic.
Any thoughts?
BTW, that comment from her hurt like h€ll....
I know exactly how you feel. In my case, I got a very tearful "Daddy, how come you don't want to marry mommy so we can all be together?"
@ EastTN
From your signature it looks like things moved really fast. I am curious to know why you filed for D so quickly after BD. Do you have a thread about your story so that I can look at your sitch?
I would reply with something generic if you get anything at all for our anniversary. My birthday is coming up next week and if I get a text I will just respond with thanks. If my D's end up doing something for me and their mom helps bake a cake or something them obviously I will participate.
I would reply with something generic if you get anything at all for our anniversary.
Yeah good advice. I just don't know if she will or not, but whatever. I am not playing pretend anymore.
Had my IC session yesterday, which was really good. She basically reinforced all the DB and 37 rules, which was confirming to hear.
I am still struggling with trying to find an explanation for this. Everything she has stated about why she wants the S is not worthy in my mind about getting a S. All of those things we can work on. I have read Sandi's piece on WAS losing respect and admiration and I recognize that I have been a NGS. I have also consistently put her needs before mine all these years - which I thought I was doing to be a good partner and husband. All of that has backfired and now I am here.
I know I need to detach and not worry about the explanation, but I can't get it out of my head that she might have had a A - whether EA or PA. I don't have a shred of evidence and nothing so far points to her doing this, but people who do this are very secretive and deceptive. So, I am kinda stuck thinking about it.
It was bad last night with this. I started looking up car GPS trackers and almost bought one. I had to walk away from the computer so that I could get some sense in my head. I also thought seriously about hiring a PI.
Even though I didn't do either of those things, I just couldn't help thinking she's out enjoying life and partying on a Friday night. There was a letter that had come for her and so I decided to go and leave it at her new place mailbox. I just rationalized it - the letter could be urgent and important and she might need to see it right away. I drove over to her new place and her car was out front and all lights were off. It wasn't too late at night. So, either she was home sleeping or had gone out - took a cab, possible OM might have picked her up yada yada yada.. the options could be many.
So, I just dropped it off in her mailbox and stared at her place for a couplea mins and then drove back. Did not learn any new information - what a dumb thing to do.
Ahhhhh!!! This detachment $hIT is HARD!
I feel better this morning, but I recognize that I have a lot of anger in me what she is putting me and the kids through. I just want a proper explanation - and I know that there might not be a logical one at all.
Anyways, seems like nights are the hardest as I am alone right now. To remedy this, I am trying to GAL in the evenings and find things to do. Let's see how I feel.
Sitch Desk Update (SDU):
I think what I did last night probably went against DB rules, but you good folks can tell me whether or not what I did was right. But first, this is what I have been doing for the last 2 weeks (W has moved her new place):
1. Being pleasant, chill, and upbeat
2. Not bringing up anything about the MR and R
3. Not initiating contact via phone or text
4. Only conversing about separation stuff - selling the house, finances, children, and using the attitude in point # 1
5. Not initiating any physical affection or ILY or anything close to that
So last night, we were texting back and forth about the sale of the house. After that, she texts me that there is an open invitation for me to come to her place for a glass of wine. I really debated back and forth what to do. Part of me wanted to not go, but part of me got really curious about why she would invite me over. A ridiculous part of me thought maybe this could be a booty call - I know it sounds dumb, but I haven't had sex in a few months and I have a high sex drive.
Curiosity got better of me and I went. We hung out and had some wine and clove cigs. Chatted about random stuff. At one point she asked me if I wanted to talk about anything serious - I replied that I didn't and asked if she wanted to talk about anything and she said no.
We were smoking out side on the front porch and after we were done, she asked me if I wanted to eat something with her, basically inviting me back in her place. I agreed and went in to see how things would unfold. We ate and chatted about movies and random stuff.
So, we continued to hang out for a bit more and then I decided that I needed to go and get some sleep. She asked me if I was okay to drive and I said yes. She walked me out and gave me a long hug and I left.
I was tempted to say to her - I am okay to drive but are you asking me to stay? All her actions indicated she didn't want to be alone. I didn't because that felt like pursuing and if she wants me to stay she should say it. I am not going to try and read her mind.
In the convo, she mentioned she was feeling depressed and I validated her feelings. I am fairly certain that there is no A in her life and she has just been spending time alone in her place and feeling miserable - which is indicating that she is feeling the consequences of her decision to S.
I am not sure if i should've gone to her place. I don't know if this is temperature checking, but I definitely think she is a WAW and not a WW.
I don't plan on repeating this as I want to focus on detachment, GAL, and a version of NC. However as it looks like she's a WAW, I am unsure if I should try and do things with her if she initiates it. What do y'all think?
Sandi2 - can you comment on my sitch?
I don't know how to ask a specific poster to respond but I would really appreciate feedback.
Thanks
Sold the family home yesterday. We got a really good offer and we're walking away with a little bit of money.
Should feel like something one would celebrate, but it feels like a funeral to me.
I was with the W when we were parsing through some of the offers. Once we did the deal, she leaned over and gave me a kiss, which I did not reciprocate. Totally taken aback about how she would think this was something kiss-worthy - W shattered everything.
We go back to her porch in a few minutes and have a smoke and she gets emotional and starts crying. I really wanted to do some kind of validation, but I was in no mood. I just smoked my cigarette and let her deal with her emotions. After I was done, I said goodbye and left.
Maika...I agree with everything you have done. You are much stronger than me......it sounds like she is really trying to feel you out and where you stand in the entire situation. Hopefully she will give in and give you a sign that she is willing to work on it.
You are much stronger than me
That's kind of you to say. It's weird but I don't feel strong at all. It's like my whole body is all jelly. I think I am acting 'as if' and pretending well enough for her to see this as believable.
it sounds like she is really trying to feel you out and where you stand in the entire situation.
Just after the aftermath of the DB, I told her at least three times point blank that I love her, I don't want the separation, I don't want a divorce, and I am willing to be critical of what I did to get our marriage here and roll up my sleeves to do the hard work. Every single time she either said she wants a separation, or was completely silent.
After coming across this site, I stopped everything and immediately implemented Sandi's rules and DBing. I got some quick reactions to it which reinforced that this is going to work - if not for bringing the M back, but for my sanity.
Hopefully she will give in and give you a sign that she is willing to work on it.
I'm leaving a small shred of hope tucked away in the back of my heart, but I am working very hard on having no expectations and completely detaching.
I was with the W when we were parsing through some of the offers. Once we did the deal, she leaned over and gave me a kiss, which I did not reciprocate. Totally taken aback about how she would think this was something kiss-worthy - W shattered everything.
Yeah that is a strange reaction for sure. I guess it was her way of thanking you for letting the sale proceed, who knows. They do strange things sometimes.
We go back to her porch in a few minutes and have a smoke and she gets emotional and starts crying. I really wanted to do some kind of validation, but I was in no mood. I just smoked my cigarette and let her deal with her emotions. After I was done, I said goodbye and left.
Good reaction. I don't think validation was really called for after she just forced you into selling your home. Validation has its place but sometimes silence speaks volumes.
I guess it was her way of thanking you for letting the sale proceed, who knows.
I think you're right. It was just absurd.
Hello Maika,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
It sounds like your changes have been noticed, just difficult to believe at this point. These changes need to be made for you and your kids. They need to be long lasting and sincere. Prove that to yourself and anyone else through your actions, not your words.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks Cristy. Money is a bit tight right now with all this separation stuff, but I do intend to get some DB coaching later this year.
Sitch Desk Update (SDU):
W has been pretty good about not coming over to the matrimonial home unannounced and letting me know when she's coming and what she needs to do. But, yesterday was interesting.
So kids are with the in-laws while sort this separation stuff out. The kids texted me and left me a VM with a heartbreaking message about how they miss me and hope that they come back soon home. I know they also sent it to W and left her a VM as well - they mentioned it in the VM. It hit me really hard about how their reality is going to be turned upside down when we break the news to them and they realize their home is no more.
Without a doubt this hit W very hard - she has been agonizing over what to tell the kids and is full of guilt.
The kids left the message late afternoon. W had texted me earlier in the day that she is going to come over to get some stuff and will text me so that I am "not surprised."
I had plans for the evening and so I just went ahead and didn't receive a text from her. When I got back, it was obvious she had come over.
I know my GALing has her believing that I am out with someone or that I am hanging out with another woman - not the case, but I am not offering any explanations. I think she wanted to see if she would 'catch' me with someone at home.
Also, she might've wanted to connect emotionally about the kids, which I have space for to do with her right now. I am glad that I wasn't home when she came, but her guilt is probably building up and I am not around as her emotional support.
I know I am speculating and I need to just detach from whatever she's doing. I am doing that, but her actions are a bit all over the place.
If she comes unannounced again, I will enforce the boundary. I doubt she will, but you never know.
My W called me last night about needing to come over to the house and pick up my D's basketball for her practice. I told her I wasn't home but to go ahead and go on in. I was actually at the gym......I quit reading into stuff like this. When she starts to ask me where I am or was then I might start to think the tides are changing
I quit reading into stuff like this.
Yes you are totally right. I am working on it right now and it's part of the detachment plan. She has to realize that losing me is a real possibility.
I know my GALing has her believing that I am out with someone or that I am hanging out with another woman - not the case, but I am not offering any explanations. I think she wanted to see if she would 'catch' me with someone at home.
Also, she might've wanted to connect emotionally about the kids, which I have space for to do with her right now. I am glad that I wasn't home when she came, but her guilt is probably building up and I am not around as her emotional support.
I know I am speculating and I need to just detach from whatever she's doing. I am doing that, but her actions are a bit all over the place.
If she comes unannounced again, I will enforce the boundary. I doubt she will, but you never know.
Hello Maika,
You are so smart to recognize that you are mind reading and that you are not detaching while you are speculating about what her thoughts and motivations are at this time.
Thanks Cristy. Money is a bit tight right now with all this separation stuff, but I do intend to get some DB coaching later this year.
I highly recommend taking of advantage of the online special for Telephone Coaching. Your DB Coach will help you navigate what/how to tell the children.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Please call me to discuss our DB coaching program at 303-444-7004.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks Cristy. I will look into it.
Anniversary coming up tomorrow. I am not going to text her or anything, unless she does and then I will respond with something generic to acknowledge it.
I just don't know how I am going to feel emotionally tomorrow. I know it's just a stupid date but I know I am going to think about the wedding day - it was a beautiful outdoor wedding and there was just so much love there with our families and close friends attending.
I am a big believer in doing dramatic things at times - truly a romantic at heart that got bogged down by life. I am thinking of taking a wedding photo and burning it and lighting my clove cig from its ashes. DRAMATIC YES! I know it sounds stupid. I know it won't be cathartic, but just something to do to process how I am feeling.
I think it would be hard to not remember and think back to those days. Mine is coming up in Sept and I am sure I will have the same feelings. Do whatever you think feels natural and makes sense to you. I am a softy and it was hard to tell my W not to come for my birthday. I know how you feel.
Thanks. I am a bit of a softy too, and even though I gave some advice about toughening up, I know it's hard.
W has mentioned being depressed a few times in the last month. I have told her she needs to go to IC, but we'll see if she does.
But, if she has serious depression and maybe signs of being MLC, should my approach be different? I read TxHubby wrote somewhere that in cases where there is no A, the WAS might need the LBS as a source of support.
I am just trying to figure out if I am messing up or not and I believe in compassion and I still love her. I just hope that I am doing the right things.
Ahh! This is so hard to figure out.
The more we do it the easier it will come for us and if it doesn't work out in our current situations we will be better prepared the next time around......it stinks because our W's should see that and give us a chance. Like me telling my W to not go to the party tomorrow....that was hard for me but I did what I wanted for myself.
Hi Maika, I think you are DBing very well. I know this separation must be difficult for both of you. Actually, her being alone and facing her new reality is not a bad thing. Although your emotions may want to reach out to comfort your W, it's no longer your job to rescue her. She wanted out of her previous arrangement (living with you), and thought she wanted a new life. However, with the new life comes the down side she may not have fully anticipated. So, continue to gently step back and let her experience it.
I do see in you what is very common in the male newcomers. I'm referring to her invitation to go to her house for a glass of wine. Everyone has their own opinions about having sex when S, and I won't comment on that part, at the moment. I only want to caution you about reading too much into something she says or does. She was alone, bored, missing the kids, and wanting company in her new place. So, she called good ole H. It doesn't mean she wanted anything more, and it doesn't mean it was a baby step toward her returning to the MR. Don't get me wrong, you handled it fine. Just protect yourself and don't jump to any conclusion of what, how, or why she wanted you to keep her company for a little while. Learn to be your own best friend.
FWIW, I will comment about your frustration with her, in regards to your sex life before the separation. I was very much like you've described your W. For me, it stemmed from 1)a lack of sex education;......2) having about 1% knowledge about men, and how men view sex in the MR;........3) having what I call the good girl complex;........and 4) being influenced by a mother who could not talk to me positively about sex. Those were the biggest contributing negatives in my experience. It can all be overcome or worked through..... if the W wants to work through it. However, when it has become an issue in the MR and the frustrations and resentments arise between the couple.......it compounds with all of her preconceived ideas, and possibly her lack of sex education. If the W had any bad sexual experiences in the past, then it seems it would affect her narrow attitude in how to have a healthy, satisfying sex life. This may have nothing to do with your W, but there is something in her that shuts down.
I also learned that my hormones played a physical part for my low sex drive. That can be changed by seeing a hormone balancing specialist. But the hardest part was changing those preconceived beliefs about marital sex.
Firstly Sandi, thank you for commenting on my sitch. I've been reading everything you have written and it has been immensely enlightening and helpful. I am so glad for your perspective as you have been on the other side of this experience. I have read your sitch many times.
Just a few follow-ups from your comment.
Although your emotions may want to reach out to comfort your W, it's no longer your job to rescue her. She wanted out of her previous arrangement (living with you), and thought she wanted a new life. However, with the new life comes the down side she may not have fully anticipated. So, continue to gently step back and let her experience it.
I am total newbie to this and today has been the first day so far without any contact. We've been communicating about separation stuff, but nothing today. I know I am just starting basically. In regards to your advice, how should I proceed when it comes to NC and limiting contact if she's suffering from serious depression? I've read some MLC threads about keeping the door open gently, but I am wondering if that can come off as pursuing. There is so much nuance and subtlety to this that I am trying to figure out what's best.
It doesn't mean she wanted anything more, and it doesn't mean it was a baby step toward her returning to the MR.
absolutely right, I was just curious to see what would happen and also to see how i could handle it trying to DB the situation.
Your entire comment about the sex life is pretty much bang on. She came from a conservative religious family and pre-marital sex was taboo. sex ed was basically minimal and her past experiences weren't that great. I think she has a very narrow perspective about a healthy sexual relationship and it definitely contributed to this.
There are other things that i firmly believe that have contributed to this and created emotional confusion and depression in the last few years:
1. She left her religious faith and it took her 2 years to tell her parents. She has described it as a great loss even though she knows it's the right decision for her.
2. She recently started a very high energy graduate program which has brought a whole host of new people in her life and it's a very demanding academic program, which she's balancing with her work life.
She has also said that she's coming to terms with who she is in the past few years and I think she's having some MLC problems coupled with depression.
I am trying to be very self-critical of what I contributed to the marriage breakdown and working on improving myself, and even doing things that I had deferred for years.
I guess my biggest issue is how should I let her know that the door is still open, but not make it like I am pursuing her. I need to know if I should be in a certain way if she's battling depression and not completely check out. I just don't know what to do without compromising my DB efforts.
Thanks Sandi. I truly appreciate your feedback.
While I wait for Sandi's reply, here is today's Sitch Desk Update:
Today is the wedding anniversary. W texted me the following this morning
"Hey, hope you slept okay the last couple of nights. I hope you are doing okay. I'll see you tomorrow if that's still okay with you. It's our 10th anniversary today. I didn't think, 10 years ago, that we would be here. Despite everything you have been kind and respectful towards me so I just wanted to say thank you."
What the H$LL am I supposed to say to that. I don't plan on replying until later in the afternoon or evening. But what do I respond with?
It appears like her only question was about if seeing you tomorrow is ok.....I know my tendency would be to reply with something sappy/emotional however something simple as your welcome and tomorrow is still good probably is more appropriate.
It [censored] because you hang on to threads of hope that there is a chance of piecing things back together then you get something like this and it is a jolt to your system. I guess the part about detaching and not caring is really applicable.
The same thing happened to me last Friday when my W told me a D was still going to happen despite me not contacting her, removing pressure, etc.
Thanks Joseph9 for your feedback.
I have been clear to her that I am open to communicating about kids, finances, separation stuff etc, but I am not in a place where I can be her friend. She is a huge conflict-avoider and saying what's on her mind directly. I want to communicate to her that the door is still open if she wants to talk about the MR and if she's having a change of heart about things or not. With me GALing and her not knowing what I am upto has created a scenario where she's thinking that I am with another woman, which is not the case. With all that said, I am thinking of replying along the following lines:
"Thank you for the message. I didn't think we would be here and I don't want to be here - this is not my choice. I am respecting your wishes about the separation and having space. As this was initiated by you, I will not be initiating any conversations about the relationship. If you want to talk about our relationship, I am here to listen to you. In the meantime I am doing things to move on with my life and being critical of how I contributed to this situation and get healthy. Tomorrow still works after 6pm. Let me know when you're coming. Hope you have a good day."
I am not the expert so I have no idea what to tell you in regards to your response. It is a fine line between seeming like you are treating her like an acquaintance but not giving too much. I just wonder if you stick to your guns and if your giving away too much information but what you are trying to do. I want to say similar things to my W but at the end of the day I'm not sure it would do any good. Either way it just stinks.
Yeah. I think my only agenda is that I am open to listening to her about the MR, but I won't initiate it. And that I am moving on with my life - not giving an ultimatum or timeline, but letting her know that I am not sitting and moping around.
I just don't want her to think that she can't talk to me about the relationship and what's going on in her head because I am not her friend anymore.
Obviously all of those MR conversations, if they happen, would just be me listening and validating - still DBing.
I don't intend to tell her how I am moving on with my life and what changes I am making. She will still be an acquaintance. I have zero expectations of her opening up to me or changing her mind, but I just need her to know that I am open to listening.
Gahhh! this is such madness
I would go for short and generic, 'Thank you for the message', short and truthful 'It is a strange place to be, you're right.' or short and DB 'Tomorrow is fine'
I agree it is madness!!! On Saturday I told my W that I would always be there for her, she was the mother of my children and I would not let anything happen to her. She just looked at me with a glazed look in her face. I probably should not have done it but I let me guard down. The reason I say this is because we have to put faith in them that they know deep down inside that they can come talk to us. I don't think us reminding them every month or so is going to make a difference. At the end of the day they created this mess so they need to be the ones to stop the madness!
Or "Thank you for the message. Tomorrow still works after 6pm. Let me know when you're coming. Hope you have a good day."
I agree it is madness!!! On Saturday I told my W that I would always be there for her, she was the mother of my children and I would not let anything happen to her.
Never tell your wife "I will always be there for you"!
Hmmm.. Thank you Joseph9 and Treasur.
I will sit on this for a few hours before I respond.. I need to think about it.
If you have any more advice, or any one else, please chime in. I will post here what I respond back to her.
LH19
What do you think I should respond with?
So I sent W the following message. I thought long and hard about it and knowing my W very well, I think this was the appropriate response for now.
"Thank you for the message. I didn't think we would be here and I don't want to be here - this is not my choice.
Just making it clear again that I don't want to be here and this wasn't a mutual decision.
I am respecting your wishes about the separation and having space.
Trying to validate and acknowledge what she wants.
If you want to talk about our relationship, I am here to listen to you.
As I said before, I need to gently let her know that the door is slightly open without making it sound like I am pursuing her. She needs to have an indication that I am here to listen. This also creates good opportunities for me to validate - doing it a few times it has already shown good merit.
In the meantime I am doing things to move on with my life and being critical of how I contributed to this situation and get healthy.
This is to let her know I am not standing still and moping, but getting on with life. Also, that I am doing deep soul-searching and hopefully she does as well.
Tomorrow still works after 7pm. Let me know when you're coming. Hope you have a good day.
She came over last time without telling me. This is just a gentle reminder that she needs to let me know.
Now let's see how tomorrow goes. I don't have any expectations about this message nor do I care if she responds. Tomorrow we're meeting to talk about finances and kids. Let's see if she brings up anything else. I am going to go over the validation cheat sheet again and have some responses ready.
I feel good about the message. I won't be reminding her again about this, but now it's at least clear for her from my end where I stand.
"Thank you for the message. I didn't think we would be here and I don't want to be here - this is not my choice.
Just making it clear again that I don't want to be here and this wasn't a mutual decision.
She knows it's not your choice. Saying something like that probably just made her roll her eyes.
I am respecting your wishes about the separation and having space.
Trying to validate and acknowledge what she wants.
First that's not validation, validation is when she expresses her feelings to you and you mirror them back and offer empathy. Second, why would you feel the need to tell her you're giving her space? You just handed all the control back to her. Part of giving her space is making her wonder what you are up to. You need to be aloof and mysterious. Instead you just told her "hey I'm sitting here waiting for you."
If you want to talk about our relationship, I am here to listen to you.
As I said before, I need to gently let her know that the door is slightly open without making it sound like I am pursuing her. She needs to have an indication that I am here to listen. This also creates good opportunities for me to validate - doing it a few times it has already shown good merit.
Oh boy. You basically just said "hey wife, here I am, Plan B, whenever you're ready I'll be here waiting!" NO, get out and get a life!
In the meantime I am doing things to move on with my life and being critical of how I contributed to this situation and get healthy.
This is to let her know I am not standing still and moping, but getting on with life. Also, that I am doing deep soul-searching and hopefully she does as well.
Here is what she hears "blah blah blah". Don't TELL her, just DO it!
Tomorrow still works after 7pm. Let me know when you're coming. Hope you have a good day.
She came over last time without telling me. This is just a gentle reminder that she needs to let me know.
That wasn't a gentle reminder of anything. If you want to remind her of the boundaries then don't dance around it. "W, we had previously discussed you letting me know before you come over and you didn't last time, I would appreciate it if you do this time and in the future."
I don't have any expectations about this message nor do I care if she responds.
Good, because she probably won't, unless it's just to confirm the time.
I feel good about the message.
You shouldn't, thus the 2x4's
You shouldn't, thus the 2x4's smile
Haha! that made me chuckle as I shake my head trying to navigate this. Points well taken AnotherStander.
She responded to my message saying: "See you tomorrow at 7:15. I am also open to talking about the relationship."
I don't know what to make of that, but in reading your comments I realized my errors.
So, how do I get back from this? i have not been initiating any MR talks or asking her about her at all and keeping info about myself very very limited. I am not doing any texts, phone calls, or emails.
I will post how tomorrow goes, but how do I get the upper hand back? We are physically separated and she doesn't know what i do on a daily basis.
The only reason I wanted to let her know she can talk to me and I will listen is because I believe she is suffering from deep depression and I didn't want my DBing to push her further away. one of the reasons she stated for the S was that i was emotionally distant.
I am trying to validate (I see my error in the text as you point out), and do all the DBing. I am afraid if she doesn't get a chance to see how I will handle her comments about the MR, she will just chalk it upto the old me that is emotionally distant.
Anyways, your points are well taken and I just need to get back in control. Any advice on that will be appreciated. Thanks a ton!
That's a tough one because you don't want to seem too eager. Maybe you could start by asking her how she is doing, how are things going and see if she will open up and take the lead from there.
Re-read the rules. She is doing this to you. Don't let her believe that she can reverse her decision at her will.
Don't be a safety net.
Get strong, stay strong, it is the way that works.
Thanks. Okay! I realize I am still being a softy and wishy washy and focusing too much attention on every little detail. Meanwhile, I am not focusing on myself as much as needed.
I will re-read the rules. I should do it everyday until it becomes natural.
I see that I am sabotaging my own detachment efforts.
I will still post how tomorrow goes. If she asks me if I want to talk about the MR, I am just going to respond with 'no'. If she wants to talk, I will do validation. Does that sound like a reasonable plan? If I have opened a door, I need to close it real fast.
Listen and validate. Do not make crumbs into loaves. Remember it's ok to say you need time to think and reflect on what she says. Please remember that in the end only actions count x
Yes! Thanks Treasur.
I like the response about needing time to think and reflect. Which I generally should do anyway, but this stops me saying something off the cuff that might make the situation worse.
Just reflecting on everything in the last few weeks, it is becoming more clear that the major issues are with her and instead of dealing with them she has decided to cut and run. Don't get me wrong - I know that I have also failed in the marriage, but I don't think my failure is separation-worthy. It is fixable and I was willing to put in the work, but W wasn't.
I am also realizing that this is stinging me a lot because her wanting the S has hurt my pride and ego. I know the qualities I bring to a relationship and how effing fantastic some of that is, but I've also realized how other life stuff in the past few years put me in a depressed state. With the help of IC and me going out and starting to GAL, I am coming out of it slowly.
Most of the time I've felt like I am walking on eggshells around her, partly due to being a NGS. I am working on not being bothered by her reactions to what I want, and just saying it kindly but firmly. Now that we're physically separated, our personal interactions are going to be very limited.
My game plan for tonight is to discuss finances and kids, and then finishing it up, unless she wants to talk to me about something. In that case, I am going to do what Treasur said and read up on the validation cheat sheet.
Just reflecting on everything in the last few weeks, it is becoming more clear that the major issues are with her and instead of dealing with them she has decided to cut and run. Don't get me wrong - I know that I have also failed in the marriage, but I don't think my failure is separation-worthy. It is fixable and I was willing to put in the work, but W wasn't.
I am also realizing that this is stinging me a lot because her wanting the S has hurt my pride and ego. I know the qualities I bring to a relationship and how effing fantastic some of that is, but I've also realized how other life stuff in the past few years put me in a depressed state. With the help of IC and me going out and starting to GAL, I am coming out of it slowly.
Maika......I feel your pain and I am in the exact same boat. Nothing I did was separation worthy and are things I can work on to be a better person. It [censored] and are you 100% certain there is not OM? Maybe something emotional? That is the only thing I can think of in my sitch.
Maika......I feel your pain and I am in the exact same boat. Nothing I did was separation worthy and are things I can work on to be a better person. It [censored] and are you 100% certain there is not OM? Maybe something emotional? That is the only thing I can think of in my sitch.
Thanks man! The pain is real and some days are better than others, as you know, and everyone on this board can relate to.
I am not 100% sure that there is no OM. I have not found any evidence of it at all. But, people who do this are pretty good at hiding things and being secretive, and now that we are physically separated it is even more difficult to find out. If it exists, the only way I will find out is if she admits it. But, as an exercise in detachment and finding ways to deal with my emotions, I am assuming there is an OM (EA/PA) so that I can work on my healing process and not let her actions ultimately control my emotions.
She's had a couple of major things happen in her life in the past 4 years and so I am leaning towards her having some sort of MLC as well.
1. She left her religious faith. she was brought up in it her whole life and it dictated every aspect of her identity, values, and what she should do in life. She has lamented that loss and that it is deep, but she has made the right decision - which I agree with.
2. She started a very intense graduate program with a whole set of new people. It has been high energy and dynamic, and she has said to me that it feels like she is on an adrenalin rush all the time. Completely different experience from her undergraduate years.
3. She missed out on life because of her religious upbringing - didn't party, drink, etc in university and had a good time.
4. She mentioned casually a couplea months ago about how one of her new classmate's wife is bi and brings over women to have threesome's with her husband. There wasn't much discussion about it, and I didn't offer my views on it just because I wanted to see where she was leading with it. It went nowhere, but it was a weird thing to bring up in a conversation.
5. Because of her religious upbringing, sexuality and healthy sexual lifestyle was never really discussed. Her past sexual experiences before me were very limited and not that great. If I ever veered off the basic sexual script, she would shut down completely. She never let herself enjoy sex completely and would not allow herself to lose control and orgasm often. I think she subconsciously she believes enjoying sex is bad.
So, I think she is basically trying to figure out who she is and find herself and has decided to blame the marriage and cut and run, rather than work on this.
Even though I am committed to DBing and work on things, I know that my failures weren't separation worthy and I need to make changes for myself. There's lots that I just didn't focus on because of many reasons for myself.
I still love her and want her, but I am reminding myself that I don't need her. Also, if she doesn't resolve all of these issues that she has, then I don't know if I'd want her back. I was unhappy with our sex life and some other things. I don't want to go back to that same dynamic. If she changes and does the work and wants a recon, I will have to think hard about it.
Right now the pain and hurt and anger is coming from being rejected. I know that if I put in the work to build my self-confidence and exhibit everything that is fabulous about me, I will be fine. Not trying to be arrogant, but I have not had a shortage of women being interested in me when I was dating W and then married to W. I was cold as ice to those women, but I know that I am a fun, interesting, loving person and there are women out there who will want that.
I am working on not becoming more assertive as well about my needs and I know that I will need that if I have another R in the future.
I agree 100% on your feelings and approach. It sounds like you are doing extremely well.
Sounds like there are a lot of thing going on in your sitch. I have done quite a bit of reading since my W dropped the bomb on me and the one thing that sticks out is that you have to be happy with yourself first and if your not happy with yourself you can't rely on anyone to make you happy. I believe my W is not any more happier now than what she was before she moved out however I do believe she is not willing to look inside herself to figure out why. I also believe that is why she can't articulate to me why she was not happy in the marriage.
So I have come to the realization that it is a MLC either with or without OM. I do know guys have flirted with her and she has back to them but whether or not it has led to anything else I have no clue at this point.
She responded to my message saying: "See you tomorrow at 7:15. I am also open to talking about the relationship."
I don't know what to make of that, but in reading your comments I realized my errors.
So, how do I get back from this?
Well it's actually pretty easy, despite the messages you just don't say anything. Don't initiate ANY R talks at all. If she brings it up then just listen and validate. She's going to say things like "I believe this is the best course of action, there's no turning back, this is best for us both" etc. etc. What feelings can you extract from that? "It sounds like you've been frustrated and maybe angry for a long time." "Well I'm not really angry, but yes, frustrated and unhappy." "I can tell you've been frustrated and unhappy, I'm sure it's been very difficult, I'm sorry you feel that way." Validating is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining. It is simply acknowledging her feelings.
That said, chances are good she won't bring up the R at all, and if she doesn't then you shouldn't either.
i have not been initiating any MR talks or asking her about her at all and keeping info about myself very very limited. I am not doing any texts, phone calls, or emails.
Perfect!
I will post how tomorrow goes, but how do I get the upper hand back?
Get out, get a life, give her time and space, focus on YOU
We are physically separated and she doesn't know what i do on a daily basis.
Oh she'll know. You'd be surprised how word gets back to them. The more you get out and do stuff, the more that will get back to her. "I saw Maika at the park with some friends today, wow he looks so happy!" One comment like that will send her spinning. What is he up to, how can he possibly be happy when I'm miserable, how can he be happy without me, etc.
The only reason I wanted to let her know she can talk to me and I will listen is because I believe she is suffering from deep depression and I didn't want my DBing to push her further away. one of the reasons she stated for the S was that i was emotionally distant.
That's straight out of the WAS handbook. And maybe it was true, but you can't do a 180 on that right now because pursuit and being emotionally available now will just make her angry and make you look needy.
Validating is not agreeing/ disagreeing/ negotiating/ explaining. It is simply acknowledging her feelings.
Yes, validation is going to be my mantra from now on. I know I will get better at it after a few times.
Get out, get a life, give her time and space, focus on YOU
I recognize I have been thinking too much about her and not about me. I will be doing exactly what you said - getting a life and giving space and time.
That's straight out of the WAS handbook. And maybe it was true, but you can't do a 180 on that right now because pursuit and being emotionally available now will just make her angry and make you look needy
Thank you so much for that. That was my main concern but now I am feeling a lot more destressed after reading your comment.
I have a plan and going to do some 180s tonight as well.
Thank you everyone for their thoughtful feedback. I know I will get better at this over the next little while.
It sounds like your wife is going through a lot of changes, many of them positive.
You mentioned in your initial post that you had been depressed and emotionally distant for some time before BD.
Do you feel like your marriage was supportive of personal growth? How do you think your wife would answer that question?
Do you talk positively about change, or do you believe that people can't change? When your wife mentions wanting to change or do something different, do you bring up past attempts at change that failed? Do you like to try new things, or do you want to do the same things over and over?
If other areas of her life are growing and changing, and the marriage feels stagnant, she might feel leaving the marriage is the only way to keep growing, especially with a depressed spouse.
This might be way off base, and if so, ignore, but these are the things I wondered about when I read about her changes.
Hi Rose888,
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. I am going to try and answer them as best as I can.
It sounds like your wife is going through a lot of changes, many of them positive
Yes, they are positive changes.
You mentioned in your initial post that you had been depressed and emotionally distant for some time before BD.
Correct.
Do you feel like your marriage was supportive of personal growth? How do you think your wife would answer that question?
Yes, the marriage was absolutely supportive of that growth. The issue about religion, we were both on the same page on that and talked about it for a long time. I also left the religious faith, just a bit before she made up her mind. Her going to the graduate program was something in the plans for a long time. I supported her fully and even pushed her to get the application in and get it all set up.
Do you talk positively about change, or do you believe that people can't change?
I feel pretty positive about change and I do think that people can change and grow. I know that I have and will continue to do so and she will as well.
When your wife mentions wanting to change or do something different, do you bring up past attempts at change that failed? Do you like to try new things, or do you want to do the same things over and over?
I don't bring up any attempts to change that have failed. I think our problem was that we repeated some of the same mistakes and avoided conflict.
Do you like to try new things, or do you want to do the same things over and over?
If I am honest, when I was in a depressed place, I wasn't that open to trying new things or make new friends. The latter was a problem for her because she felt lonely and I was okay with not having a social group. The ironic thing is that I am way more social than she is and due to my depression I just shut everything out.
If other areas of her life are growing and changing, and the marriage feels stagnant, she might feel leaving the marriage is the only way to keep growing, especially with a depressed spouse
I think that's a really great insight. I believe the BD snapped me out of the depression and allowed me to take a look at myself critically and I realized that I couldn't be a one-person-army, and I got help right away. My depression was also not allowing me to pursue the things that I want to and am really good at. I just talked about doing it but never got to it and made many excuses. The real issue was that I wasn't in a good place emotionally and mentally and I needed to become happy for myself and be content so that I could do the things that I wanted. She probably got tired of hearing about these amazing things that I want to do, but never got around to it.
Update from last night.
She came over in the evening and the plan was to discuss finances and kids. We opened a bottle of wine and just started chatting about random things.
I was sitting on the porch sofa and she came and sat next to me instead of two other single sofa chairs. We weren't making too much eye contact in the beginning, but from the corner of my eye I could see that she was slowly looking at me when she was talking. So, I reciprocated and she got really close to me and initiated some physical contact. After talking about other things, she just basically nuzzled against me and got very close and kissed my arms and back.
We made some dinner and went through the bottle of wine pretty fast. She told me some interesting things about her uni program and some of her colleagues, and how she tried MJ for the first time. That was a bit surprising but it confirmed to me that she is in this uni mode trying to do things that she didn't get to do in undergrad.
She also told me things about her uni colleagues that she has told me before, but doesn't remember telling me. She brought up the story about how one of her colleagues has a wife who is bi and they have threesomes on occasion. So, at this point I asked her if she was bi and this is something she would have wanted to do. She just laughed and looked at me incredulously like I had just killed a bunny or something right there in front of her. She then asked me if I would want something like that to which I replied no. That's an honest answer.
So the night wore on and she'd wasn't drunk, but wasn't in no shape to drive back home. She tried to leave and go, but I just grabbed her hand and said that there was no way I was going to let her drive and she can stay with me if she wanted. She agreed and we slept in the same bed - nothing sexual happened but we did kiss a few times.
In the morning we end up having sex. The last few times she's slept in the same bed, she's wanted to have sex but always pulled back. This time she pulled back but then initiated it. I have a high sexual drive and so for me this was just casual sex and I know that this doesn't change anything. Afterwards she asks me what I was thinking, and I said that I was just here in the moment and being present.
Not sure if she regretted it, but I could see this added to her emotional confusion. We had coffee afterwards and I asked her point blank if she was interested in anyone right now or in the past year. She told me that there were guys who were interested in her (which I expected obviously), but she isn't. So, I asked her if she's gone on any dates and she said she went for coffee with one guy and he wanted something that she didn't. I didn't ask what, but she wouldn't have told me anyways what that was. I can speculate, but what's the point.
She told me then she's just very lonely and feeling depressed and I validated her feelings. We talked a bit about kids and finances, but tabled it for a proper conversation on the weekend.
She gave me a hug and then left.
No MR talk by her, which is what I was expecting anyways.
This has given me great insight into continuing DB and do the 180s even more. I have to admit that I wanted to have sex just because I miss it. However, I know that if I continue this, it will fuel the idea of me being plan B in her head and she can continue to sample dudes to see if they can be plan A. So, my goal is to meet her on neutral ground and not have drinks.
What I also figured out is that the guys who have expressed interest in her are super dummies and they can't compare to me and what I can offer to her - I don't mean sexually, but as a whole package. Yesterday she got a taste of that and now I am not going to be available for her as an emotional and physical back-up. If she wants to go around and see what's out there, she can do that. She's always going to have to compare it to me, even if it's subconsciously.
I have zero expectations out of this night and I am not going to revert back. She shared with me about what she's doing and her weekend plans and I gave her nothing.
I am not putting any hopes up but I know she likes the man she fell in love with. I am going to get there for myself and then see where she's at that point. Man, i do love her so much and part of me feels so much for her cuz I can see she's really hurt and confused.
I am going to let her go at this point and let her experience the separation life. I just needed some confirmation that this wasn't because of an OM. Anyone new has to go up against me and the best version of me will be hard to beat for her. We'll see.
So after writing the above update, I have just realized that I've taken so many steps back from where I was.
Even though I have zero expectations and no hope and treating sex just as casual sex, I have basically shattered all my progress on detachment.
I am thinking about how I didn't ask her this or that and even though she's not had an OM, has she had sex before or after BD with anyone else.
AHHHH!! I think I am going to be in this stupid place today mentally. I want to message her to meet and talk about what happened, but I think that might be the wrong thing - it's gonna come off as desperate and needy.
So, I can't have sex with her even though I want sex. But I can't do it with anyone else cuz I want to save my M and if I sleep with someone else, it might end any chances. I dunno. I am just a mess of thoughts and emotions right now.
So, I can't have sex with her even though I want sex. But I can't do it with anyone else cuz I want to save my M and if I sleep with someone else, it might end any chances. I dunno. I am just a mess of thoughts and emotions right now.
Yes....I am in the same boat however I have told my W to come over a couple times for a hook up and I was shot down. At least you got that going for you! Don't beat yourself up, no 1 is perfect....just chalk it up to what it is.
Yes....I am in the same boat however I have told my W to come over a couple times for a hook up and I was shot down. At least you got that going for you! Don't beat yourself up, no 1 is perfect....just chalk it up to what it is
I guess the old adage "be careful what you wish for" comes in play here. As much as I wanted sex, it has set me back emotionally and mentally. I think it will take me at least the day to get over it and focus on DB goals again. I am just going to have to live with the fact that sex is not going to be happening, with her or anyone else, for a while.
This stuff isn't easy....don't beat yourself up. Also at the end it is not totally up to us and many things are out of control. Just back on the horse and keeping riding!!
I am total newbie to this and today has been the first day so far without any contact. We've been communicating about separation stuff, but nothing today. I know I am just starting basically. In regards to your advice, how should I proceed when it comes to NC and limiting contact if she's suffering from serious depression? I've read some MLC threads about keeping the door open gently, but I am wondering if that can come off as pursuing. There is so much nuance and subtlety to this that I am trying to figure out what's best.
I suggest you don't initiate the contact. If she calls you, then you can answer. Be polite and mostly listen. I recommend that you end the conversation first. If she sends a text message, answer only direct questions, and use as few words as possible.
I guess my biggest issue is how should I let her know that the door is still open,
You don't. That would be the opposite from DBing. She left you. If anything, she needs to believe she quit the best guy she ever had, and put him on the market again.
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2754120#Post2754120