Here again part 9 - DivorceBusting.com

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Hope I did that right this time Cadet

H text me earlier - probably not gonna be able to come tonight I have to help one of the big bosses load a big moving truck.

Me: okay, no problem.

He sent me a picture of the view of the apartment he was at and told me to show the boys. I just replied I'll show them.

I'm not sure what I'm supposed to be doing how I'm suppposed to respond. It's hard to go dark when he texts me ...I haven't initiated a text since he left 2 weeks ago.

Hey T0,

From your last thread:

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I'm just fighting with accepting it's over and there's no hope.

Then you're not DBing. There's always hope.

Instead, focus on accepting what is and letting go of the M that was.

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I'm comparing this to last time and it seems more hopeless to me. That's why I'm spiraling today. The reality of my new life.

The reality of your new life might feel shocking and take some getting used to. That's okay.

But you're spiraling because you're trying to predict and feel a sense of control over what is going to happen. That's why you keep posting about what H's actions mean (even in the meta form when you're saying it's the second time.)

T0, you can't control this. You can DB perfectly and have it not work out. You can not DB and have it work out. But what DB does is get you back and happy with yourself and your life, and clear the path back home.

It's not a guarantee because there's another person involved. Them's the breaks.

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I don't act like this in front of H....This place really is my outlet.

I believe you. But what I'd like to see is a shift from worrying about what H is or isn't doing and what it all means to you thinking about you and what does and doesn't make you happy.

I've posted previously that means working to break your habits.

I also suggested posting on someone else's thread and giving advice. You're quite a prolific poster, but it's only about your situation. Giving back to the community will help others and it will help YOU, by getting you out of your head and helping you see the bigger picture.

Any idea that you shouldn't give advise is nonsense. You're a smart woman, and it's a great deal easier to apply DB to someone else's life without the emotional attachments.

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I jut want someone to tell me what to do how to interact and how to let go.

You're doing it. And, as I said above, if you start applying DB to others situations, it will help you be in the right frame of mind to handle the day to day with H without doubt.

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I know that's all unrealistic by the way. But that's where my mind is. I want everyone to tell me what move I should make and when to make it.

I'm glad you recognize it's unrealistic.

T0, you are strong. You have three children and you're getting a degree that taxes your mind, heart, and soul. You can do this. You can get yourself to a point where you are detached and focusing on yourself and your life, and you know you'll be okay with or without H. I hope you can get yourself to a place where you imagine that maybe your future is with someone else who isn't so keen on letting you go. Maybe that will be H. And he's not going to know the value of what he's let go of until she realizes it about herself and begins acting accordingly.

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I'm so afraid to do more damage.

Again, when in doubt, do nothing. With H, be calm and pleasant, but don't do anything resembling pursuit. Shut down any attempts at R talks, as they are just him trying to make himself feel better and secure you as a plan B. It's not the time to talk about R.

You seem pretty good at the outward stuff. I think why you're struggling is the disconnect between the outward and inward.

Even if H comes back, it doesn't solve your problems, T0. He's not the answer. You are. Your anxiety, your feeling of being worthless without him, your fear to be on your own... those are things that are holding you back in life. My impression of you - and this could just be because it's early on - is that you feel you NEED H. You don't just WANT him. You need him. And that's going to stifle any relationship if you don't work on what is the background cause of you feeling that insecurity about your worth.

I would love it if H turned around and turned into the man you needed him to be. And, yes, it is possible the second time, too. However, it's clear that he has something going on inside of him that causes him to leave. He surely is dissatisfied with some things, and those are valid, but there is more happening with him that he doesn't see. Given this, I don't think this will turn around quickly, and I think you should be wary if it does. H has to feel grief of his own and do some soul searching to ever make true changes, and that won't happen until limerance with OWs are over, and he feels he may have lost you.

Feeling like he lost you cannot come from you being angry and rejecting. It comes from you moving on with your life and being confident in your own skin. Think of how focused H is on his needs and his happiness; what would happen if you did the same? Good things, I think!

I know I have been very absent, but I did promise to poke my head in on you. So forgive me if this has been stated in previous threads:

While I know it can be difficult with a baby....
And School....
And DB'ing....
And Life in general....

What are YOU doing for YOU (leisure/blowing off steam/healthy escape)?

I know I'll be okay but it's not the life I want. And yes I know we don't always get what we want...

I don't need H to survive but I want him in my life. I want the man he's capable of being. Not this version. Yes I have a lot of wants.

I don't want to be a single mom. I don't want to do this with a newborn.

I read through all of trains threads last night. Her feelings are exactly how I feel. I felt like she was writing speaking for me. Because those are all the exact same emotions I am feeling.

Wounded - the answer is pretty much nothing. I'm doing things with the kids. I did go out Saturday night but that's it. I started the gym last week but stopped due to some breastfeeding issues. Right now I don't want to do a damn thing to be honest. I take the boys to do things on my days off but that's about it.

I'm glad you read through my threads. Because they should serve as a reminder to you that, yes, your H *can* come back a second time. And, yes, he *can* change.

But I think perhaps the most important takeaway is how I finally got so fed up that I was willing to drop it all and walk away. (Notice I didn't say I was *ready* to, but I was willing.) I had finally confronted my biggest fear: putting my kids in school, getting a job (or two) and moving. I no longer resisted that; I finally accepted it. That's the long way of saying I dropped the rope.

And that's when things ABRUPTLY changed. And they're still different - and so much better. And I know in my heart of hearts that if H would have never come around, or - God forbid - if he ever walks out again, I will be okay. Because I'm the cake. He's the frosting.

You're going to be okay, too. No, it's not the life you want. But that which we resist persists. Stop fighting against what is happening in reality. Just let go, T. Once you let go, you can start working on the next part of your life, whether that ends up being with H or not.

So what does that look like?

Asking H for a schedule? Retaining a L? How do I move forward?

Okay, let's spend some time breaking this down.

How could H having a visitation schedule with the kids help you?

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I just want someone to tell me what to do to give me a fighting chance.

I jut want someone to tell me what to do how to interact and how to let go.

I jut want someone to tell me what to do how to interact and how to let go.

You continue saying how you want to be told what to do. You have been told! You may not have been told what you wanted to hear, or maybe you didn't see immediate results........but you have been told.

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I wish I could stop these thoughts but I just keep feeling like it's me or what should I have done differently... like I failed. I failed our boys. What reason do I have for this being over besides he just isn't happy.

Words from a former WW may not be welcomed, but I going to say it anyway. Stop this victim mentality! Stop being the poor, pathetic woman who has been left with three kids. You've got to find some spunk and pick your lower lip off the dang floor. If you continue repeating this same old stuff about yourself......then you'll start believing it......and then fulfill the role. If it would work, I'd give you a little Cher smack and tell you to "snap out of it". However, I don't think you will. In spite of everything people have said, you are determined to stay in this pity party.

I get the impression you have stopped listening. Yes, you read the posts, but I think you are at the point of subconsciously rejecting advice. You are so consumed by what your H is doing, that you are shutting down and blocking your own ability to let go of the man who has caused this damage, not once but twice, ...........and TO, it is a choice to let go. That's how you do it. Nothing is stopping you, but yourself.

Maybe you should read Txhubby's new thread. Now I could tell people all day long to do what he did, and they wouldn't listen b/c I am a former WW. However, they sit up and take notice when a LBS comes forward saying his M was saved b/c he let go. It was his decision. That's where it starts.

We tell people all the time to do the action and the feelings will catch up. That's what I had to do in my case, so I know a little bit about the struggle. You were given some information about how to stop certain thought patterns, so please look back at that post and follow through with google.

I know you have a lot on your plate. It is becoming too much, b/c of your state of mind. I find it hard to believe this gal we see today......is the real you. Please stop pouring all your thoughts and energy into getting him back, and taking the blame for him..... and start saving yourself. You don't know how to let go?? Seriously, you don't know, or you just don't want to let go? What would tell your best friend if she was in the same boat? It has to start with you making the decision that you've had enough of living this cr@ppy life and you aren't going to do it anymore. Instead of making everything about him, and what step to make next, and how to get him back and save the M..............just stop all of it. Start living like you want to live, and let the chips fall however they fall.

Find a good IC, MD, or whatever it takes to help get you out of this mental ditch you continue to digg. I don't mean in order to save the M. I mean in order to save you. It's concerning to see what this is doing to you.

The schedule would allow me to have a set time to plan on him watching the kids if I have things I need to do. It would allow some predictablity for the boys vs him coming by whenever it works for him. HOWEVER I don't see me asking for a s schedule being a positive in H eyes. He will see it as me trying to control the situation. He said in C the woman I used to be was laid back and went with the flow and that since school started I'm not that person.

I guess the schedule would be more about H and the kids THEN me. I see it more as holding him accountable so probably not the right idea right now. I guess I can continue on with my life making plans and if he decides to come around so be it?

I struggle with what I'm supposed to do as far as contact. When he was texting last week asking about my day and thanking me I never responded. I guess maybe I should respond to those things?

Also for example the baby had a dr appointment today. I told him about it. Do I text him about how it went or leave it be? I wouldn't be using this as an opportunity to talk to talk to him other then just informing him about the baby. So again these are the things I don't know that I should be doing or not.

Thank you Sandi

I don't want to be this person. Who I have been is not an attractive person. I know that.

I know I'm supposed to let go. I just don't know exactly what that looks like like I've said many times. I think I come off as a bitch instead of light and breezy.

That's what I'm referring to when I say what I'm suppsss to do.

I want to feel better. I want to be happy. I'm just angry and hurt. I'm trying to work through all these emotions. I read the detachment thread again and the livestrong as well. I'm going to figure this out.

FORGET the "light and breezy" stuff for now. Why? Because that's still putting your focus on saving your M.

Just stop and BREATHE, T. No more worrying about what you are "supposed" to do. When you ask that, you're asking us to tell you how to help you save your M. Don't even try to save your M right now. Save yourself.

What does THAT look like, T?

To be honest I have no clue.

I've been living in limbo since March and felt like I was just waiting for him to leave and now he has.

I don't even know where to begin. I guess taking a break from here. Not snooping on H and focusing on school and the boys.

Originally Posted By: T0324

No! Focus on YOU! Not from the selfish context.... yes we all have responsibilities (school, kids, etc). But if you can not coordinate H to take care of the kids, take the plunge on a sitter or daycare.

But also YES, remove the focus from H and don't snoop.

Darn... there used to be an edit post button if done within a couple of minutes... but apparently thats gone now too.

Anyway, another thing:

In the context of sitter/daycare/H watching the kids... start with something simple for YOU:

Re-read DB and if time DR... its like your taking a step back for clarity.

Originally Posted By: Train

this^^^

You have asked us what it looks like and I swear to you, I relate. If you knew what was happening in my life or on my thread (not insulting, just saying I don't want to repeat it all)

you'd know I KNOW how hard it is to unravel a life you had and a future you planned and making sense of a m you thought you were in...

I now see that I spent a ton of energy working to maintain the belief (illusion?) that my h was all in our m, that we were a team, that he cared deeply for me AND our children and that IF IF IF he could have, he'd spend more time at home...

even in the face of evidence to the contrary, I maintained this belief and defended h to an unhealthy amount. Which I no longer need to do.

A part of me that is small but growing, sees that in time, I will have a lot more energy for MY LIFE than I had before, (b/c I was so busy juggling other's r's with h or pretending that h and the kids "Just need more time together" and or that the secretiveness of h meant something other than what it meant...trying to control the outcome and maneuvering other's and pondering and worrying and blah blah blah.

ENOUGH. OMG yes this hurts like he11, at a cellular level, but it is happening anyhow. It's so very wrong and so unfair, and it's happening anyhow

it's the opposite of what I wanted & dreamed and planned, but it's happening anyhow. I'm now 57, not 47. And it's still happening.

I spent an added decade of my life trying to make something work with a man who is not able to be what he once was, or who I thought he was and for sure is not who I need now...and that is happening anyhow.

Some of this^^^ seems relevant to your situation and how many times you say you "don't want a divorce/baby to grow up in a divorced family/don't want this life".

We know. We get it. Repeating it does Not help you.

It's a loop and it's a rut and you need to swerve your car sharply back onto the road.

Anyway, back to what it might look like...

So here is an outline off the top of my head, okay? Sort of in order...

1) Self care for T0. At least one thing per day, like "meditates 10 minutes" /"Listen to self help tape"/ "go running"/ and one thing per week "T0 sees T/T0 gets massage",

2) fun or nurturing kid activity - (with a newborn, I'd modify this later)

- one thing per day, "play at park with boys", "outside walk with all 3", or "visit Fun relative" 2 x weekly, and monthly each of the older boys gets one on one time with T0

3) professional/school advancement FOR T0, daily "check on homework"/read relevant article friend sent/ watch motivational film/video/,

and then monthly, touching base with classmates or work colleagues for a social and professional networking activity. It's fun, it's GAL and it helps your career.

4) financial/divorce work - see a L, talk to a financial planner, set aside some money asap.

5) ADD on a GAL and do it, monthly. Yes, even this month. Even with a newborn.

You need it and your boys need you.

PS

And read Sandi's post to you 3 more times, please....it'll help you move forward.

Originally Posted By: T0324

Thanks everyone.

Thanks for the list 25

I'm going to read through DR the next couple nights. The baby is super fussy and clingy today he has to get 3 shots today. Poor guy. Took the boys to lunch after and we've been hanging at home since the baby is fussy.

25 - you give me a lot to think about BUT I will say I'm not entirely convinced H wasn't the man. I thought he was or all in on our marriage. I think he was. Well I know he was. Until this year.

I did not mean to say he was not the man you believed he was. I'm not erasing your marital history. (Or mine). I'm saying your h is not who you need now, and that is just true.

Like I said it was like a switch flipped in February. Something changed.

since I've been pondering the "WHEN?/WHY??" questions in circles for months, and did it for a year a decade ago, let me ask you a question.

What difference would having an exact date and time, make now? I mean, what if a crystal ball said "T0, your h switched off the M on 2/4/2017 at 3pm" ?

How would that help you, today? What affect would that have on your course of action now?

My dad agreed - he is very close with H and said around the times of the flowers he gave the coworker it was like he became very disconnected. He connected a little when baby came and then came severely disconnected the last month. That's the most frustrating part is he can just flip like a light switch.

The one thing I know about H is when things are good for him it's great. If something goes wrong or he's unhappy about anything then it radiates to every relationship and thing in his life. He's continued to tell me he isn't happy with himself and that I'm the source of his unhappiness.
-

Life gives all of us - every single one of us -either a curve ball of tragedy or undue hardship (prolonged illness or a serious injury, job loss/financial stress, death or tragedy in a family member, a difficult or sick child, prison for someone close to them)

- AND OR normal build ups of multiple life stressors, as you have at the moment.

That's when the partners each step up to the plate, or one of them bolts. You are telling us something in this post. Do you see it?

I'm always typing on my phone so it's hard to remember every point in trying to respond to.

Why is it so hard for me to accept that I shouldn't be trying to save my M?

I'm not saying that, necessarily. I am saying THIS marriage is not salvageable. Salvage yourself b/c you do not seem to be making yourself your priority.

Your h may step up to the plate with a seismic change of heart and increased self awareness and maybe that will endure,

but more curve balls are coming in your life for sure, and you already have a life structured for chronic pressures of kids and 2 careers. So, do you want THIS man?

Because if you do, you have to let him go.

If you don't, you have to let him go....see the pattern?

I feel like I should be doing something for my M, for my family for my boys ... not for me. I've always put all of them ahead of me.

what if putting yourself IS what is best for your boys and your family and yes, your m?

I'm just waiting for the day where I can wake up and think F U for putting us through this again. I'm trying to get to that stage instead of the cry fest.

My dad said people are at their best when things are at their worst.. H is showing me he isn't that person. He said no matter how much of a pain in the ass H thinks I can be that I need to go to sleep every night knowing I don't deserve this. That's what I'm struggling with. Is this entirely my fault? I guess that's why I wanted so badly to find out concrete OW evidence ... almost like a reason I guess? But I have to remember he hid it very well last time and it took a few months for me to have evidence because everything was happening at work. Which is probably exactly what is happening now.

Anyway, I'm scared. Will I be truly happy again. I've had to stop looking at my Facebook memories that. One up every day because it's all things with H and the kids and vacations etc that we were doing when we were all so happy.

So H text 'im going to help move again tonight then I will come spend the night' I didn't reply yet ... yes I asked him to stay the night and help but part of me wants to tell him he doesn't need to stay anymore .. any thoughts on this? He doesn't help at all at night. He comes eats dinner works out and sits on the couch and has limited interaction with anyone. He snaps at the boys very easily. I feel like it's more stressful for me for him to be here because I'm so concerned about putting on my happy face and being as if.

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So what does that look like?

Asking H for a schedule? Retaining a L? How do I move forward?

What would you do if he lived across the country? As far as you being able to depend upon him to stick to a schedule.........(and I definitely think he should keep them at his place, not at your place)........well, good luck. Maybe Train and the others have more experience with how to enforce it. I mean, how do you make someone show up on time? Yes, I suggest getting legal counsel.

What does your state do about child custody, if the father walked away or was in an affair? I think many places are 50/50 child custody, regardless of an A. It's awful, and people of my generation are seeing their grandchildren living out of suitcases b/c they are constantly coming or going from one parent to the other. It breaks my heart.

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I can see why someone in your circumstances could become confused, b/c of the amount and maybe various forms of advice. FWIW, it's not just you. A few years ago, I realized a person I had tried to mentor was still applying the initial advice he had been given under different circumstances. Just as with him, I think your circumstances have changed, since your H is trying to buy a house and move his life in a different direction. You have to step up to protect yourself, and the welfare of your children.

Perhaps, it would help if you knew your objective. How can you know what to do if you don't know the objective? You ultimately want to save the M. For now, however, try to put that thought on the back burner, so you can begin to see more clearly what needs to be done at the moment. Let's break down some main objectives, beginning with scheduling.

What is your objective in having a set schedule for the kids? It's b/c it will help you and will be more routine and predictable for the boys. Right? That's all. Don't get distracted by guessing thoughts of your H. You have to let go of all these things you try to control in your H's life. Starting with........what he may think about you asking for a set schedule. Who gives a care what he thinks? That's not the objective. The objective in having a schedule is about what is best for YOU and the boys.........not what's best for H.

The "control" issue is a no win, either way you go. You are either trying to control what he thinks about you.......or you are worried he will think you are being controlling.

Confusing, isn't it? So, first step of not controlling is to let go of worrying about his thoughts. He thinks you are controlling? His problem. It's not positive in his eyes? His problem, not yours. You could be perfect, and you would still fall short in the eyes of a wayward spouse! Why? B/c the problem is within themselves, not their LBS. Therefore, if you can be honest with yourself and know you have no hidden agenda and not trying to control anything about your H's life or what he thinks........then don't undertake the burden for his problems.

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I guess the schedule would be more about H and the kids THEN me. I see it more as holding him accountable so probably not the right idea right now. I guess I can continue on with my life making plans and if he decides to come around so be it?

Well if it were me, he wouldn't come around whenever HE decided to come! Why would he get to keep those kind of privileges if he has left you? I mean, you've tried playing the one big happy family part.......and last I heard, you were still sleeping with him when he stayed overnight. So, when you have already done those things and he still pushes to leave.........then you need to change directions b/c he just gave up those rights, IMHO. After all, isn't that kind of a relationship called marriage, where the family is doing things together and the parents are sleeping in the same bed? He made his choice, but so far......I haven't seen anything change b/c of it. I know some people might say to continue going that direction, and show him what he's missing. My question is how can he miss it, if he gets to cash in occasionally? Anyway, getting back to what's best for YOU........how can you expect to detach with him coming & going whenever he chooses? Right now, you need to detach for yourself.

This is an example of how you get off track when you start thinking about him. It is not your job to hold him accountable. He is living a separate life from you, and as long as he doesn't break the law or hurt one of the kids.........how are you going to hold him accountable? You can't force him to be a good parent. You can try to not be manipulated or taken advantage of.......and, I guess you could take him to court if he had a track record in not holding up his end of things, but for right now.......just let go of the idea of holding him accountable. Let go in order to free yourself. You don't need to be his arresting officer. Life is too short. (This is not a wayward who is trying to stay in the MR, and trying to earn your trust again).

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I struggle with what I'm supposed to do as far as contact. When he was texting last week asking about my day and thanking me I never responded. I guess maybe I should respond to those things?

It seems to be a fine line for the spouse that's left behind. I mean, you could find a reason to text him every single day.........just about the kids. I come the older generation that did not grow up with cell phones. So, my H and I never had the habit of calling each other while on the job......just to see how our day was going. If we called, it was something important. Now days, I don't know how employers get work out of their staff, b/c everyone is texting! I grew up seeing things done quite differently than how things are done today. Anyway, if I were you, I would not respond unless it was about the kids, or business. Having a newborn..........wow......I just had a big lump to come in my throat, remembering my D going through that experience. Tough times. I know it won't be easy, TO, but you can do what you need to do.

As far as telling him about the baby seeing the doctor........was it for a checkup? Maybe say, "Baby's 6 weeks checkup was fine", and leave it at that, unless he asks something directly about the checkup. In the initial detaching, some people have found it helpful to use as few words as possible when texting. When it becomes several sentences......you're talking too much, using too much time, and too much energy.

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Is this entirely my fault?

I'm just going to ignore that question.

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So H text 'im going to help move again tonight then I will come spend the night' I didn't reply yet ... yes I asked him to stay the night and help but part of me wants to tell him he doesn't need to stay anymore .. any thoughts on this? He doesn't help at all at night. He comes eats dinner works out and sits on the couch and has limited interaction with anyone. He snaps at the boys very easily. I feel like it's more stressful for me for him to be here because I'm so concerned about putting on my happy face and being as if.

So if it doesn't help you, what is your objective in him spending the night? This might be the right time to tell him, "This doesn't really work well on this end, I think we need to consider a schedule for when to have the kids". If he tries to argue, just don't respond. If he come, or if he doesn't........oh well. At least, you've introduced the subject of scheduling, and he'll see that you aren't going to wait around for him to be a popup dad whenever the mood strikes him. Reminds me of the old "Jack in the Box" wind up toy where you never knew when Jack would pop out of the box.

Thanks Sandi,

A lot to digest. I think I'm going to take a few days and figure out my course of action. I'm thinking of taking the boys away for the weekend.

H continues to lie every day. Yes I know I need to detach but that is my reason for wanting the schedule. He texts me saying he has to do XYZ and won't be at the house til late. But that's not what he's doing at all ...

But because he's not saying he wants to work on the R it's not my business to call him out, right?

The last we talked - he needed space to figure out why he feels this way and to see if things will work out between us. Again, I know he's lying when he says that because it's the exact line he gave me last time.

Anyway I guess that's my thought IRT the schedule. He thinks he's dad of the year coming to sleep on the couch at 9pm getting here eating dinner working out and watching tv on the couch all night - not exactly helpful with the kids. He will take the baby if I bring him to him by doesn't offer anything. Hell he doesn't even come in and kiss the baby when he gets here half the time.

So that was the scheduling question. He goes out and lies about where he is and what he's doing on his own accord (I'm not asking what he's doing) and then still comes here at night like he's Mr helpful

Okay Sandi unfortunately it's / 50/50 here and A doesn't matter and also the fact that he's done this before doesn't matter. It was a pretty big sh!t sandwich that I got from the L I met with. Again made me even more think this is not what I want kicking and screaming. But I have to let go.

My dads advice is pretty identical to what you are telling me. Suck it up buttercup. You got f'd yes he's a POS yes he should rot in hell yes he will regret this decision for the rest of his life yes what happened last time is exactly what's going to happen again. He doesn't get why I can't see that. He said it's like he is watching a rerun of the most terrible movie ever released. He said the only time H respects me is when I don't give 2 shits about him. Like last time. He said don't you remember he couldn't stand seeing you happy without him. He wants me to get angry and move on. I get it and I am getting there a little
More each day.

I'm a fixer. I want to make everything okay. I just I don't like conflict I just want to deal with the issue and move on rather than sweep it under the rug and drag it out.

I told my dad I just feel hurt and rejected. I feel unattractive as it is and need to pull myself out of this feeling. I think I mentioned before my brother said who would want to be wihth someone with 3 young kids. I have that haunting in my head. He wasn't saying it to be mean I don't believe we have a good relationship but still it was a gut punch.

Every single person in my life says H doesn't deserve me. That he was given the gift of a lifetime to have a second chance and he didn't deserve it.

Like I said before I'm going to enjoy this weekend with the kids I have a big test Monday and a paper due Wednesday. How nice to have those things scedhukes around the holiday weekend. Damn grad school. But I don't need anymore stress so I'm going to take the time to get those things out of the way and live
My life Day by day. I have spoke with a L. I am as protected as I am going to be financially. Me setting a schedule or doing anything in the next week is not going to change anything toward the better at this moment it will just add more stress for me so I will suck it up and make plans with the boys and if he chooses to reach out I will decide IF he can join or he can have the kids one day himself. I am dropping expectations of him as a father. He's chosen not to be present UNLESS airs convenience for him. If we go on the boat I will decide if he's invited. It will depend on my mood and what's best for the children. NOT because of what I'm worried he will think or do because he has shown he's going to do whatever he wants.

I did send a text earlier - baby was 15 lbs 3oz 24.5 in long 99 percentile and poor guy got 4 shots. And left it at that... I didn't engage further but I'm going to be the bigger person. I am not going to give him ANY ammunition toward me to paint me to be the person he is convincing himself I am.

So if I can muster up being nice and as if I will. If I'm having a bad day and don't feel like it I won't. But I am going to try my damn best to be the person only a fool would leave. Not by pursuing but just by being the better person. I will not kiss his ass and I will not allow him to do anything to hurt the kids in the meantime. And right now they're okay. They don't really seem to care if he comes by during the week or not. The weekends are where it will be difficult but he was present the entire weekend this last week so we will take it as it comes.

That's about all I can do for now.

T: Who would want to be with someone with three young kids? You'd be surprised. I've been dating someone for a year and a half who wished for kids all his life and is happy to be part of my family. He even comes to band concerts and karate belt tests, something my kids' dad doesn't always do (often misses). My Guy takes my kids out in the backyard and throws baseballs with them, talks to me about my parenting challenges and is actually really insightful and helpful to me. I gave him a Father's Day card just from me, thanking him for all his help, and it brought tears to his eyes.

Who's going to date someone with three young kids? The guy you deserve, that's who.

Mr. Fantastic turned switches like that whenever he'd had a hook up. I just didn't realize that was what had happened till long after the fact. Your H is more helpful not coming than coming? It's OK to tell him you need space and not to come. I haven't read your whole thread, just enough to get the gist of what's been going on, but it's absolutely imperative that you take good care of yourself. You are the sane parent for your boys. We've already seen that perfectly clearly. Make sure you're able to maintain that. It's going to be a long haul, but once you get past this storm, it's going to be SO MUCH BETTER that you won't even believe you fought for this disrespectful, dishonest, untrustworthy, blame-shifting, self-absorbed guy. I promise you.

With regards to feeling unattractive... here's the other thing that really surprised me. I was 42 when Mr. Fantastic moved out. I felt every minute of it. I probably looked older than 42. But now that he's been away for a while, I look ten years younger. NO JOKE. And I hear this almost daily from strangers. So it's not my mirror lying to me. So how you feel right now, that's temporary. When the storm starts to subside, when you've figured out how to take care of yourself, when you start saying yes to T0324 and no to Mr. Runaway, you'll realize how beautiful you are, and it will start shining out of you. It won't be easy, but it will be so worth it, and you'll be happy.

I fought so hard for my marriage. I promised my daughter "I'll fix this." (That was pretty stupid). I cried buckets for a guy who, now that I have more perspective, was never the guy I gave him credit for being. He played a role till the role required more of him than he wanted to give, and then he decided "this isn't what I want." I never thought I'd be happy like I am. Even when things are tough and I'm feeling overwhelmed, it's worth it.

You'll decide these things in your own time, but I want you to hear a voice of hope, and a cheer of encouragement. This isn't your fault. A man who can build a family with someone and then decide he has an optional role, isn't a man. If you really svcked, he had other options. He's blameshifting onto you because he knows he svcks and he doesn't want to face it, so he's making it your problem (come to think of it, just as he's made caring for everything else in your family's life your problem). He comes over to "help"? No, a father cares for his children. He doesn't stop in like a lazy uncle. None of this is on you. You've more than pulled your weight.

(((((((T0324)))))) You've got this, lady!!!

Thank you Maybell.

I'm so glad to hear that you are doing wel and have found happiness.

Thank you for the hope on the other end. It's just what I needed to read. I really don't know anymore. I believe H is a good guy with problems. He is always willing to go out of his way to do for others BUT the problem is that when he is like this toward me he puts others ahead of our family. So I just don't know.

He didn't get in until 1030 last night. I had typed a text out that it was late and not to worry about coming but then decided to just leave it be and let him do what he wants. My mom saw him driving with furniture in the back of his truck. She works out right where he just got a storage unit. So I guess him helping someone move was to get furniture for himself which is why he got the storage unit.

The baby screamed bloody murder off and on from 1115-1245. My older two boys were in here too. H just stood next to the bed. Didn't offer to take the baby or anything. I ended up giving him the baby and he screamed worse. H just sat there and said he needs to get over crying like this and just cry himself to sleep. Then he screamed at S6 and made him go in his room he shut the lights off and closed the door because S6 was trying to comfort the baby and H said he was making it worse. At that moment I said H do not do that to S6 he is trying to help... then S9 started crying because of S6 being closed in his room alone.

It was a mess. I told H it was unfair to do that to S6 when he was trying to help. Hell these boys help me more every night than H and I'll be damned if he thinks he's going to show up here for an hour to cause more crying and stress. I don't need him upsetting the kids because of his bad mood and inability to have patience with a crying baby. Hell he hasn't seen the baby since Monday you'd think he could
Deal with him for 15 minutes.

Anyway - he doesn't talk to me when he's here. He is so cold and treats me worse than a stranger. My dad said it's just because he has moved on to someone else and has replaced me and shut me out and that I just remind him of the life he is trying to get away from.

I don't think I want him to stay here anymore. It serves no purpose. He doesn't help and adds more stress. I'm going to give it til after all my assignments like I said but I think it's time we have a talk about planning a schedule. I can do this just fine on my own. Ya I'll be tired but it's better then seeing my. Boys be yelled at for trying to stroke their baby brothers back and sing to him.

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I told H it was unfair to do that to S6 when he was trying to help.

T0, this is a trap that I'd like to bring your attention toward.

For better or for worse, H is the kids' father. You need to not micromanage his parenting decisions like this. Step out. He's their father, and you are equal as parents.

When H is in charge at your house, H is in charge. Step back and let him make the decisions, for better or for worse. Also let him handle the consequences of his decisions. Kids might come running to you to try to get you to overrule their dad and it's important that you not fall into that trap.

To do otherwise is yet another trap where H can say he can't do anything right. And, putting this in perspective, this isn't abuse. Your kids are going to be just fine in spite of any temporary hurt feelings!

Sorry for the drive-by advice, and focus on the negative, but I don't have much time!

what Cadence said

and please, God bless your dad - but can he keep talk of OW's to himself? Especially since it's just his surmising.

Good grief, I see no value in that. It's just so painful and raw.

As for what good it does to have your h there, 1) he's the boy's dad so he gets to see them, in someone's home, yours are his

2) your h needs to learn the ways of each baby, and I would be surprised if he'd let the infant cry if you were not around watching.

3) I think there is value in having an adult presence around, at least to me when i had newborns b/c I (hormonally?) always had a semi irrational fear of a fire or burglar or something I would not be able to manage with a toddler and a baby, and no help.

ugh

I hope you will read Maybel's post again

TO, I follow your sitch because your pain is so palpable, it breaks my heart, and I wish I had more to offer. I can't go back in time, but during my post-BD when my H was off with OW, I should have posted here and asked for support/advice. You have the strongest posters here in your corner--please just try and take it in. I know it's hard when you are so devastated and fearful. I remember the raw emotions and hopelessness like it was yesterday.

I heard a podcast recently--it is a radioshow about relationships--and they discussed the increase in male infidelity when a woman is pregnant or has young children. The takehome messages that I got were: 1. it is the hardest and most vulnerable time for women because their entire focus (biologically as well) is to protect their nest. 2. Men may feel threatened by the loss of attention, as W has to (of course) take care of children, 3. Men have an increased fear of losing control of their life/future and more impulses to flee.

Not saying that any of that makes a difference to you, because it hurts all the same, but I share it in hopes that you will see that this is HIS process and inability to cope. You do not have to change or be perfect for him. He fell in love with you and married you because of who YOU are. Not everyone can handle M and the obstacles that come over time, and unfortunately he is showing you he cannot, but this is not a reflection of you. Your behavior and choices are the reflection of you. I couldn't see that back then but I see it clearly now.

I see you spinning and asking the same questions. You don't quite seem to know what to do or how to act around him. I struggled terribly to DB around my H and we had to see each other often because of the kids. There were two things that helped me not show him my emotional/infuriated self and that guided my actions. The first was being the good neighbor and the second was pretending we have been amicably divorced for several years.

So I allowed myself to pretend that I was one of these two things whenever I saw him or had to interact with him. In both of those Rs--with a neighbor or XH--it would be appropriate to be matter of fact, polite, and detached in interactions. If it's not something you can imagine someone doing or saying with the neighbor, then don't do or say it. It feels unnatural and takes some acting skills, but it does get easier with practice. ... It also started to confuse him (or so I thought) because he could no longer get in my head....

Blu

Thanks all. I will say I never undermined H if he said no and then the kids came to me. They actually do that quite often. I was upset last night because the boys were being sweet and trying to help and he snapped at them. The mama bear came in place because these boys are the ones rocking the baby getting diapers clothes etc to help me now that H is gone.

Hi Blu.

Thanks for reaching out. We were def set up for fIlure in the sense of me being heavily pregnant working and school I was gone 60+ hours a week And add H buying flowers for someone else and being distant and it was a disaster. I seeALL of that.

Like I said I don't think he is well was physically intimate with someone but I definitely think someone was stroking his ego when I wasn't. I'm confused. Y him one day asking about my day then the next acting as if I don't exist. I know it doesn't matter. Every patient I see today is divorced on AD and just miserable. It makes me want to cry that that's where I'm heading ang I just want to grab on and not let go. DONT WORRY I'm not doing that lol but it's what my heart is telling me to do. My brain says come here and get yelled at for those feelings lol.

He told me he wants me to be myself and do what I want to do and not ask him for permission. Well that was right before he left. So then I wonder should I text every so often have a nice day or how's your day since he felt I never cared about him. This is my mind going through all of that just because last week was the first time he's asked about my day in over 3 months. I know drop the rope ...

It'll happen eventually

I just hope you guys understand my feelings instead of getting mad at me. I am listening. I feel like my heart and brain are pulling me in different directions.

When my children were infants their dad was traveling for weeks at a time for work. We lived in California earthquake country when I had three under 6 and I had to be ready to shelter in place without food, water, or emergency services at any moment. Even when Mr. Fantastic was in town he *never* got up to help with crying children, change a wet bed, etc. There were nights all three of them were vomiting and he never got out of bed at all. I was a single mom before I knew I was a single mom. If I'd heard a noise or a fire had broken out, I'd have handled that too, and he would have stood around asking me if I wanted him to call 911 (probably as my daughter was actually dialing). Twice I walked in on attempted break-ins and when I called to tell him he told me I was interrupting him at work and he never even asked if I was ok. Shortly after D-Day my car was totaled on the freeway with my children in it (not my fault and nobody really hurt) and when I called to tell him he said that was lucky, now I could get a new car, and that he had to get back to his meeting. Never once did he ask if we were OK, if the kids were freaked out, whatever. Way too absorbed in himself.

Well, based on that rant I apparently still have some anger issues. Sorry to dump them on your thread.

My point is, we are mightier than we know. Babies in the house or not, you've already been doing this on your own. If he wants the kids, you don't have to be around to witness it. Set up a schedule and let him actually take them so you can get uninterrupted sleep and study time on a predictable basis. If you've got the kids, you already know how to deal with it, and clearly your boys are ready to step in and help. Your H can be their dad, but he doesn't have to be their dad on your time if he's not helping.

And T, I do understand your feelings. I was there. It's so confusing.

The thing is, do YOU want to be married to this unpredictable, unreliable, grumpy man? A marriage is a commitment to be one another's rock. Will you ever be able to see him as your rock, ever again? If he came back to you right now, would you be able to believe him? Would you want to trust yourself to him?

If the answer is no, then focus your energy on dropping that rope.

I know there are people here who are encouraging you to hold on to your marriage. I remember your first go-around here, and I'm sad to see you on round two. I'm not going to encourage you to hang on. Enough is enough!!

People are on ADs for all kinds of reasons. Not just because of divorce. FWIW, I was never on ADs, though I was offered them. I decided the pain I felt was appropriate to my circumstances and that I should just figure out how to cope with it. So just because you see lots of depressed patients doesn't mean that the natural consequence of divorce is lifelong depression and medication.

There will come a moment when your head and your heart pull in the same direction, and when that happens, you'll be on your way to OK. Until then, just keep processing here. It's helpful. You are entitled to your feelings. You've been through a TON and you are going through a ton. I'm pulling for you, T, you're one strong lady.

Originally Posted By: BluWave

There were two things that helped me not show him my emotional/infuriated self and that guided my actions. The first was being the good neighbor and the second was pretending we have been amicably divorced for several years.

So I allowed myself to pretend that I was one of these two things whenever I saw him or had to interact with him. In both of those Rs--with a neighbor or XH--it would be appropriate to be matter of fact, polite, and detached in interactions. If it's not something you can imagine someone doing or saying with the neighbor, then don't do or say it. It feels unnatural and takes some acting skills, but it does get easier with practice. ... It also started to confuse him (or so I thought) because he could no longer get in my head....

Blu

Excellent advice, Blu! Bravo!

Hi Maybell,

Thank you for taking the time to talk me down from the ledge

You're right I don't want to be married to THIS man, I want to be married to the man I know he CAN be. But he has to take his journey. I'm sorry your H was so terrible. My H was someone I could count on WHEN things were good. he was great to me when our older boys were born. He had been great to me after we R this last time. Like I said it was just up until this year around February when things changed. I'm working on letting go of what WAS because it isn't what IS.

But I would be lying if I said I didn't want to FIX this. I know I have said so many times I have to feel like I'm doing something. Even though doing nothing is something I feel like I'm just pushing him away further by doing nothing. Trying to tell myself that isn't true. Me distancing has moved him further away. He hasn't asked about my day or anything related to me.

I am going out tonight. H told me he was working late then sent me a text he wasn't working late and was coming by to see the boys. So one of the physicians I work with is staying at her condo and she wanted the kids and I to come over, she hasn't seen the baby yet and recently had a baby as well. But I told her lets leave the kids and meet for a drink! So I'll get dressed up again and be on my way. Ugh I have so much homework this is the last thing I should be doing but oh well.

Does H not even care that I get dressed up and go out? Does nothing I do even get to him? Is it really true that he just doesn't love me or care about me like a switch. I'm not sure my heart is ready to accept all of that. I remember last time I started doing this he started showing interest but now he could careless.

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Me distancing has moved him further away. He hasn't asked about my day or anything related to me.

I disagree. You still seem to be expecting some sort of quick fix. Consistent distancing will see results. A week isn't consistent enough for him to trust, especially when you've got a history of it only being a matter of time until you're bringing up R talks. That tendency means that you've got to work extra hard and extra long to show consistency.

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So I'll get dressed up again and be on my way.

Good!

Quote:

Does H not even care that I get dressed up and go out? Does nothing I do even get to him? Is it really true that he just doesn't love me or care about me like a switch. I'm not sure my heart is ready to accept all of that. I remember last time I started doing this he started showing interest but now he could careless.

T0, if your feelings for someone were buried, how would you act? If you were depressed and pushing someone away, how would you feel about him getting dressed up and going out?

You probably wouldn't feel much. Or you'd say "Good, this makes me feel less guilty."

But, again, what you are going for is going to take time. Change isn't going to happen in the short term. You know that, T0.

How about a mantra? "I'm okay just as I am. I feel like I need H to be happy, to be complete, but that's just my brain and my habits. It's not real. I'm okay, even if we're not together. I'd rather try with him, but if I can't have that, I know I'll still be okay. I'll be more than okay - I'll be happy!"

And, remember, T0 - you're getting dressed up for you, too. You need to find yourself again and have some fun!

Originally Posted By: Maybell

.

The thing is, do YOU want to be married to this unpredictable, unreliable, grumpy man? A marriage is a commitment to be one another's rock. Will you ever be able to see him as your rock, ever again? If he came back to you right now, would you be able to believe him? Would you want to trust yourself to him?

You are so focused on just getting him back (understandably so) but do you know what that would look like?

I would really think about the questions Maybell asked instead of wondering what he is thinking, feeling, ect.

I am going to try to leave my personal opinion out of this..... but if he decides to "stay" I hope you won't just be glad he's home with no change. That's why this is such a process. While we cannot predict or control the future, I would hate to see you and your kids go through this a THIRD time. Letting him back without change on his part would be detrimental.

You really do deserve much better. I pray that your H would be the someone much better than who he is now. But that is not something you can fix, only he can

And I am saying this because I was where you were. I had an infant and I just wanted him to not leave me. I would have let him back in unchanged at first. Hell, I begged him to come back. I screamed, I told him how awful he was for doing this and I tried ot guilt him back in, I tried everything.
Hind-sight vision is 20/20. Looking back, if he dumped OW and came back home, but nothing changed, well, I would have suffered longer, and I would have been exactly where I am now 9 years later. Divorced.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

And I am saying this because I was where you were. I had an infant and I just wanted him to not leave me. I would have let him back in unchanged at first. Hell, I begged him to come back. I screamed, I told him how awful he was for doing this and I tried ot guilt him back in, I tried everything.
Hind-sight vision is 20/20. Looking back, if he dumped OW and came back home, but nothing changed, well, I would have suffered longer,

and I would have been exactly where I am now 9 years later. Divorced.

and 9 years older...

just saying T0, please take 5 minutes (once) and go down the rabbit hole of "what if he snaps out of it and returns and SAYS he's all in"???

that's when it hits you that there are so many other things you'd need to feel safe,

so you have to move forward.

Hey, your h could have that internal earthquake and want to do all the work he should have done before.

it could happen. But until if/when it does, please hear us.

You are single as it is, so let's get you a plan for how to handle going forward.

I have to say, although I was shocked, scared, all of the above, the first thing I did even though I was in some sort of fog was figure out how to do it on my own. He planned on walking right out the door the night he dropped the bomb. I had no clue it was coming and he was just going to go to his sisters. I went to my dad's for 2 months instead. I worked 2 nights per diem night shifts, I immediately went back to full time for more money and benefits since I was under his. He was to take her on the nights I worked. I signed her up for daycare 2 days a week so I could sleep when I came from work in the morning. I just planned my life without having to depend on him. I did depend on him to take his time with her, which was the nights I worked, and he did. But I surely was going to hire a nanny and send him half the bill if he didn't want her.

This is what you can control NOT him.

Had he come back, it put me in a better more powerful position. He would have known he was a want, not a need.

FWIW, I am happy. I am single, although I have dated, but our daughter is 9, she is a wonderful happy child, an excellent student, well-adjusted. I have a great balance with a social life, my dear friends, my family, and activities. Sure, companionship would be nice, but the best is, I don't need a "baby daddy" I don't need someone elses money, or house or anything. Everyone I share my life with is on a "want basis"

You are a strong smart woman. Plan your life. If he fits into it and wants to do the work to become a part of it again in a healthy way, GREAT. But if not, you will be ok. You will even be HAPPY

.....one more thing.... when the shiftwork was working as she got older, I did not depend on him to pick of the slack either. I took it upon myself to leave a position in my career I loved to get something that fit our daughters schedule. (I'm a nurse by the way, you seem to be a healthcare professional too). I did this because I never wanted to rely on him and he wasn't willing to make any adjustments (he actually ended up taking one night less a week instead).

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H continues to lie every day.

It irks you to death, but you cannot and will not be able to control the fact he is a liar. I have very personal experience with compulsive and pathological liars, and if you try to control his lies.......it will consume you and you'll be focused on the wrong objective. You don't need it.

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Yes I know I need to detach but that is my reason for wanting the schedule. He texts me saying he has to do XYZ and won't be at the house til late. But that's not what he's doing at all ...

By late, do you mean when he comes over to spend the night? B/c I think you can put a halt to that part. No more of him coming by to see the boys and then leaving. It keeps you upset, and may leave the kids unsettled before bedtime, IDK. The objective is to protect your feelings, and since this is upsetting to you......how can it be resolved so you can mentally detach from the anger, frustration, and consuming thoughts of what H is "really doing"?

I am a pen & paper type of person, however, I have updated to the computer version

.
If I were you, I'd write out these things that are bugging the cr@p out of you and threatens to prevent you from mentally detaching. Then write your objective, and write out beside your objective your plan to achieve it. Remember, (b/c it's easy to blur the lines and try to control him), you are protecting your feelings. You control you, not him. That's not to say you have to let him pop up at the house whenever he decides. There needs to be some ground rules established, so you might bear that in mind as you are sorting this out.

Detaching doesn't mean you have to stop loving him. It works to free you from the painful bondage you currently feel in connection to what he is doing in his life. You allow his behavior to control you, b/c you become obsessive about his lies and what he is likely doing. TO, I have personal experience of living with a compulsive & pathological liar. It is absolutely horrible and can consume the lives of a family. Even when I knew they lied with every breath they took, I was the one who was being a puppet and allowing their lies to rule any chance of me having a healthy emotional/mental state of mind. It's a thief and will rob you of precious things you can't get back. So, build your fort and protect your feelings from his destructive ways. You have to shift gears from saving the M......to saving yourself. Does that mean it will push him to D you sooner? No! It's not going to push or pull him. It's going to save you. You can't save anything until you save yourself first. Being left when a woman is in her most vulnerable condition.....is unforgivable, but it happens to many women. I don't know how you have the sanity to get through your schooling, stay up all night with a newborn, run the house and the other two kids, and work........all while your hormones are trying to find some type of balance.

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But because he's not saying he wants to work on the R it's not my business to call him out, right?

Exactly! You are not his mother, and he has separated from the MR. It will be tempting to call him out, but it will do no good whatsoever. You need to have some ground rules, b/c you are emotionally vulnerable. Calmly telling him that xxx does not work for you (or you and the kids) is not calling him out. You will no longer talk about how he lives his life. The only thing you care about is how his actions directly affect your schedule, the children's welfare, etc. For the moment, you can't focus on how his behavior affects the M. That has to be put on a shelf for now. In order to fix yourself, you must stop trying to fix the MR, b/c you are loosing "TO" in the process. You have to emotionally and mentally train yourself to separate from his life and make a new life for yourself. It won't be done in a few days or weeks. It is a daily work, taking a few steps at a time to build up your emotional strength.

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He thinks he's dad of the year coming to sleep on the couch at 9pm getting here eating dinner working out and watching tv on the couch all nigh

Well, you can't help what his wayward brain thinks, but you can stop him from doing this little song & dance at your house. He gave up his home and family, so he doesn't get to come in right before the children's bedtime, eat dinner and make himself at home. He doesn't get to keep his old life and his new life, too. This is not you being punitive to him; and who cares if someone thinks it is? Don't let it sr@w with your head. This is you setting ground rules that protect your emotions and the peaceful routine you have established within those four walls. You aren't focused on what he does outside those four walls, but since he's removed himself as the protector and leader of this family unit........You step up. You say who gets to spend the night at your house. If you have any legal concerns, check with you lawyer.

BTW, if he has not removed all of his personal items from within the house, and if seeing his things bother you........I don't think it would be out of order to ask him to finish moving them. The sooner he stops dragging out the process of getting a few things at a time, the sooner his excuses to pop in for more clothes will end.

Hi all ,

Yes I am making plans to NOT count on him. That's something I learned from last time that he was unpredictable and frankly just didn't care about anyone but himself. Things seem to be taking a similar course as last time. Last time he continued to come around and slowly separated himself as things progressed with OW. But *I* am a different person at this stage. I may have made a lot of mistakes while H was in the home because I thought we were in a different place and that here was NO way he would leave me with this baby and while in school especially because he had said he wasn't going anywhere. Well now that I've realized I was wrong... it's a different story.

I'm working on letting him go. I think each day is a little better with minor set backs each day. I'm less emotional. I stop myself when I start getting worked up thinking about things. Yesterday he came by. I said hi first since he can't seem to say hi to me but decided a neighbor would be the bigger person and say hi. He came in and sat on the bed with the baby and I and S6. He asked S6 to go for a walk on the beach. I told him I was planning on leaving to give him some time with the kids. That I needed to leave at 815. He said ok. He asked if I would be around this weekend because he needed to go to a baby shower for the boss daughter (not the one he's been talking to but a different one). One he had never even met before until the last 3 weeks. I just asked if everyone fromcwork was going because he said they all pitched in on a gift.... I asked if he planned on taking the boys if it was a kid friendly place and I would take that time to study (I have an exam Monday). He said he didn't know he didn't even know where it was. So I just left it at that. He got in the shower and was in there well past 815 so I gave him til 830 and he was still in there so I just left while he was in the shower. I didn't come
Home til 11. I asked how the baby was got in bed with the boys and he went to the couch. He asked what we were doing today. I told him we were taking the train downtown. He asked what time and suggested we leave earlier than I planned so we didn't miss it. I just said ok thanks.

So this weekend the boys and I will go about our plans. If H brings up taking them to the baby shower great if not I'll make arrangements to study at some point.

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He said the only time H respects me is when I don't give 2 shits about him.

He's right. Read Txhubby's first post on his new thread. I realize it may not make sense to rational person, but it's the wayward spouse who is out in left field. He thinks everything is about him. You have made him the center of your life, and he doesn't appreciate it. He resents you mothering him and holding him accountable for past sins. He is in full out rebellion, and he sees you losing him.......not the other way around. WW's have the same mindset. It's crazy! In most every success story, the LBS had let go of the WS and did not try to stay BFF's and all of that stuff. They moved forward and had as little necessary contact with the WS as possible. In these success stories, when the wayward spouse realized they were being dumped by the LBS.........it was as if they would become intrigued and reverse the chase. I believe there is some human nature at play when this happens. Even in our modern society where we have seen many changes in the way people think and act.............there is an innate behavior that I still believe exsits. Some people say it's playing games, and that's true to an extent. Someone needs to tell the animal kingdom, since it has been proven how this behavior plays a part in their mating rituals.

. In a lot of cases, the female acts as if she's not interested, while the male struts around showing off......or fights off his competition (still showing off) to win the female. She may have been interested all along, but the male doesn't know it, and he is drawn to her and thinks he has to win her favor in order to mate with her. Wait.......am I talking about the animal kingdom or humans? Both! I couldn't begin to tell you how many times I have seen the chase reverse when the one pursuing would stop and lose interest. I will admit that if my H would have dumped my a$$, it would have been an immediate change of heart for this wayward gal. I believe I would have gotten my act together real quick, by seeing him as the one leaving me, instead of me walking away from him.

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I'm a fixer. I want to make everything okay. I just I don't like conflict I just want to deal with the issue and move on rather than sweep it under the rug and drag it out.

I refer back to my previous post on this subject.

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setting a schedule or doing anything in the next week is not going to change anything toward the better at this moment it will just add more stress for me so I will suck it up and make plans with the boys and if he chooses to reach out I will decide IF he can join or he can have the kids one day himself

Okay, whatever you need to do. Schedules should not cause stress, but give you predictability where you can have a sense of organization in your unstable situation. Maybe others are encouraging you to share family activities with H, IDK. I just think this is the time you need to shift gears and protect your emotions. The more you allow him to play like one big happy family.......the more difficult and painful for you to detach.

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If we go on the boat I will decide if he's invited. It will depend on my mood and what's best for the children.

You mean this weekend? I thought you were getting away with the boys. Look, TO, it will always be best for the children to have both parents with them! Affairs, separation, and divorce are not designed for the children's best (unless in abuse cases, etc.), so you have to think what is best for you in this current timeframe. As parents we always think about our children's best, and what I'm saying may sound terribly self-centered in your opinion. Under normal circumstances, I would be the first to agree. However, these are not normal circumstances and you must do what is best for you to rise above this mess your H has caused, and come through in one piece. He enjoys the family outings, right? Then he leaves and goes back to his own private life. So what does it do for you? You enjoy it, too? Does it raise your hopes? Does it send you back through the old thought patterns and self blaming? Do you essentially hurt more or longer b/c you saw a glimpse of what was once your old life? Do whatever works for you.

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I did send a text earlier - baby was 15 lbs 3oz 24.5 in long 99 percentile and poor guy got 4 shots. And left it at that... I didn't engage further but I'm going to be the bigger person. I am not going to give him ANY ammunition toward me to paint me to be the person he is convincing himself I am.

What you texted was fine. I just get concerned when you talk about being the bigger person.......if he is the measuring stick. You need to be free of what he might think about you. Can you see how it controls you? Ammunition? Honey, he is a liar. He doesn't need legitimate ammunition.........his wayward mindset is all the ammunition he needs!!

Hahaha! I LOVE your animal kingdom analogy Sandi, so on point

If Sandi2 had a microphone, it would be wholly appropriate for her to drop it at the end of that post.

I'm in awe!

Hey Sandi, I must have missed your previous post too because we posted at the same time.

So my questions are -- what does that look like. I know you're probably sick of hearing it but until I am actually detached it is going to be faking it til I make it. I struggle with coming off as a bitch VS lovingly distancing. I know I will get to the point where I don't analyze every interaction and situation BUT I'm not there at this moment.

So as it is I don't call or text. The only text I initiated was regarding the baby's Dr appointment. Other then that no communication on my end. When he texts I wait an hour to respond normally and only respond if it's kid or bill related.

As far as him coming here -- I started saying hi and I've made a point to head out and let him be with the kids. What the hell else am I supposed to do? I know to ask nothing of him his life or his plans BUT in the same sense I want some consistency for the kids.

I will bring up a schedule in the near future probably the next week or two just not right this minute.

But how does he feel I'm moving on from him when we're still around. I'm not going away this weekend with the boys I have a test Monday but am planning a vacation away for us. We will probably go on the boat Sunday. IWILLnot be inviting H. But how do I formulate a response if he asks about joining us for something this weekend? Not saying he will --- but on the off chance he does. He already told me he had a baby shower for his boss daughter so he won't be around Saturday so I don't have to worry about that.

Anyway I'm just wondering what my interactions look like while I'm faking my detachment. What do my actions look like?

Also-- is he wayward??? I don't know? I'm not sure of an active A although the fact that he's done this before and behaves similarly -- if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck then ...

I didn't mind so much having him around us all weekend .. it is hard for me to see that we can all have fun together and be happy together as a family and he still chooses to live separately and has this new 'work family' just like last time. So allowing him to do things as a family I'm not sure. If there's OW I imagine it causes issue there and it can remind him of who I am having fun and being relaxed BUT it also hurts my heart.

I'm making some strides... haven't checked the phone bill. MIL told me he and the nasty women she had text him to reach out and 'help' are still talking a lot. MIL talks to that woman often and really thinks she's trying to 'help'. I don't say much to MIL. About the situation or about the woman in general because of them being friends I don't want anything being shared.

I had a good time last night. The physician I met with presented me with a potential job opportunity next year. It would be amazing and it's insane Monet that I never imagined making but it's an hour commute which I am trying to get away from. But no weekends no holidays no on call no nights and in the PICU which is where I'm at and what I know and love. She's a good friend and was a good friend last time H and I went through this. We spent a little time talking about it last night and she's one of the only people in my life that supports what I want. And doesn't tell me to give up if that's not what I want. She just wants the boys and I to be happy.

Anyway sorry I'm rambling. I'm always posting on my phone and it's hard to keep all my ideas thoughts and responses concise.

I guess I just really need help with my behavior my actions and my words while I'm faking it. As time progresses I know it will become natural and I won't need so much. Advice but until I get there here I am

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But how does he feel I'm moving on from him when we're still around.

Worry less about what he thinks and more about what you think. That's what you're being told over and over, but you still want to spend time mind-reading, with an assumption that this could turn around quickly if you just new the "right" thing to do. But you also know, logically, that's not correct. So it's a matter of your logic overruling your emotions, and learning to self-soothe.

How do you feel about him being around despite having left? Spend some time on that one, instead.

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I WILLnot be inviting H. But how do I formulate a response if he asks about joining us for something this weekend?

What would a strong emotionally-stable woman in your situation do?

She'd probably be straightforward, realistic, but not biting in her response.

Something like "Look, H. You made a decision to leave, and I'm starting to feel a little frustrated that you also seem to want to keep participating in family events that you'd find fun. I don't want anger or acrimony between us, but the togetherness you're asking for is becoming too much for me. I think it would be best if you didn't go with us."

Make sense? Straightforward, honest, prioritizing oneself instead of the one who walked away, and not shielding him from consequences of his choices. You didn't invite him and there was a reason for that. It's okay to tell him that reason, and the benefit of your straightforward reply is that it's clear that you are prioritizing your feelings above his.

And making the explanation about you means you can still invite him if there are events where you feel strong enough for him to attend. If he asks why, you can just say "I invited you because I think it would be fun."

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I don't say much to MIL. About the situation or about the woman in general because of them being friends I don't want anything being shared.

Great! The more you try to control other people, the more you're falling back into bad habits. You are recognizing that the way you limit the information flow is to focus on yourself and your actions.

Let the MIL friend/H discussion wear itself out. If she's awful, the awfulness will become very apparent to H if you step out and let it happen. Time is your friend here.

The physician sounds like a lovely person and friend. The job offer sounds great, despite the commute.

Hi Cadence,

Why am I afraid to say those things to H?

Why am I afraid to piss him off and push him away further? Part of me believe it's because I'm hoping he's questioning his decision and that me pushing him away will push him further to D.

I don't know why I'm so scared to say H you left me, I really don't think these family functions are something that I should be doing and it is confusing for the boys.

I've also been thinking about saying something to him about staying the night. Like H, you staying here isn't working out. It's confusing the boys and they are left with uncertainty of which nights you will be coming by and which ones you won't so I think it's best for everyone if that stops.

That's not exactly what I will say but it's what I'm playing around with.

Last night H came by. I said hi and hung around for a bit then got dressed and went to the gym at 9. Before I left I said H is there a specific time you need to leave so I am plan to be back? He said I can stay the night if you want. I said no that's okay you don't need to just text me when you need to get going and I'll head home. He never text so I came home at 1030 we didn't ecahcnge any words and he went to the couch. I realized he was staying the night so I brought the baby out and said he's here to kiss you goodnight he said I already did earlie. I just said okay goodnight and walked back to my room. This morning his friend came over and he left without saying goodbye. So the boys and I are going to be gone before he gets back. He has his 'baby shower' to go to anyway. I'm taking the boys to see fireworks tonight with some friends also.

I have super mixed emotions about being around him since he's left. We've seen each other pretty much everyday with the exception of a few but we barely talk. I feel so AWKWARD around him. He feels like a complete stranger to me. I feel uncomfortable around him. Like I don't know what to say or do. I feel like I'm being judged. But as I see him it gets less hard to be around him from an emotional sense like yes I love him and see the man I love but he's not that man and being around him reminds me of that more. If that makes sense.

Anyway I'm afraid to say anything. I hope I can suck it up say it and move past that fear. My parents want me to just leave everything as it is so he continues to financially provide as he is. They're scared for me that he will stop paying like last time when I stood up to him. I'm not working and he pays all the bills as of right now. So I'm in a difficult situation until next year.

Hi TO324

You are getting such great advice. And your feelings of wanting him back are normal for right now. I have heard it said, that it might not necessarily be the WS that is in the fog, but the LBS that is in one after BD. All of our thoughts are geared around the WS. But why? They are not prizes.

Would you ever date a man that cheated on his wife with small kids? Would you ever date a man that left his wife when she was almost due? WS are showing us who they are through their actions. And yes. You can believe them.

I think a lot of us enter this fog, because its outside of our belief patterns and perspectives to fathom such disloyalty and break in commitment. We try to make excuses for their behaviors. He/She was depressed, an addict, entering a MLC, had a bad child hood, I (LBS) was awful and busy and sick and negligent, etc, etc. I think the truth is that you have some pretty selfish people out there that simply cant handle discomfort. And unfortunatly, its not always easy to recognize when things are going good.

"My H was someone I could count on WHEN things were good."

Yes, he sounds like a fair weathered friend. But is a fair weathered friend the type of person you want as a partner in life? Lets say you won millions of dollars in the lottery and You discovered this magic fountain that made you 5 years younger and made you look like a super model. And your ex came crawling back to you. Would you take him back, knowing that he can only be with you when things are good? When life is at its best?

Honestly, right now like everyone else is saying you need to get out of the fog and step away from him. Do whats in your best interest without any concern for him. Its exactly what he is doing. And in the future you will respect yourself for it.

Through every sentence of that ^^^, I read fear. If I'm sensing it, your H is definitely sensing it. And he's eating it up.

You have every reason to be fearful, but you also have every reason to put that fear behind you and stand with your back straight, knowing you will be okay. You are smart, you are strong and you are capable.

Do not be afraid that you standing up for yourself will push H further away. THAT is your mind playing tricks on you. Ask ANY man - in fact, go ahead: go around and ask any man on these boards - and I bet they'd tell you that there's nothing more attractive than a self-confident, self-assured woman. You see, T, that's what makes the OW so attractive to waywards. They act the complete opposite of how LBSs do.

Take a look at one of cadence's suggestions for what to tell H:

"Look, H. You made a decision to leave, and I'm starting to feel a little frustrated that you also seem to want to keep participating in family events that you'd find fun. I don't want anger or acrimony between us, but the togetherness you're asking for is becoming too much for me. I think it would be best if you didn't go with us."

Now, take a look at what you're pondering saying:

H, you staying here isn't working out. It's confusing the boys and they are left with uncertainty of which nights you will be coming by and which ones you won't so I think it's best for everyone if that stops.

I know you said you wouldn't say that exactly, but can you see the difference(s) in those two ^^^ prospective responses? This isn't a rhetorical question. Look them over and get back with me on whether you see any differences and what they are.

The response is more about the boys then me?

I know I'm operating out of fear.... mostly financial and fear of pushing him away. But more so not wanting anything to be worse than it already is. I AM ready for a change I just have to be strategic so that he continues to give me money last time he cut me off completely. The L I met with said it can take a miniumim of 90-120 days for emergency support so he could go that long without giving me a penny which he did last time. .

He just left for the baby shower. I almost lost it on him spending an hour in the shower shaving himself and wearing new clothes. It's so disrespectful. He said when he left I'll text you later I'll come to the fireworks with you guys. I just said okay. But I think this is the perfect opportunity to have him NOT come. He's going out with whomever doing whatever he wants then coming for family time. I'm tired of sitting here like a weak woman like I'm just graced by his presence when he decides it's convenient for him to be around us.

How do I make that happen?

T0, it seems to me like you're trying to honor your instincts and the advice you're getting all at the same time, but they don't line up. And that's the struggle you're having and why you're having trouble grasping and accepting the advice you're receiving.

With every relationship ending, the person who didn't want it to end has their heart screaming at them with certain ways to make it stop. Unfortunately for those in that situation, our hearts are total morons.

We have evidence on what will make a WH or WAH question his decision, and we know it is unlikely to happen quickly. And those things tend to the exact opposite of what our moron heart is screaming at us to do. Those outside the situation are not confused about our path to best accomplish our goals, because our moron hearts can't type or call them.

That's part of the reason I've been urging you to start advising others. So that you can see their confusion, and what their idiot hearts are telling them to do versus what would actually be helpful for them in accomplishing their goals. I think your confusion would lessen if you'd take the step to help others. Just as you receive advice and benefit from it, others could be helped by your words. So it's also got the benefit of volunteerism, and a larger purpose outside of yourself.

We've told you again and again that H is not going to reverse course quickly (and if he does, it's not something to be trusted) and to start thinking of yourself. I believe your heart is reading this and telling you not to do that, and just love him more, and draw him closer, and bring the baby to him, and and and and.

But your heart, like my heart, is an idiot. (Sorry, hearts. You're good in other ways, but you are quite challenged after BD.)

I also still see very clear patterns with you with anxiety, insecurity, and the feeling of not being enough without H. I wonder if you've thought about IC for yourself, because these aren't things that are permanent to your character, and they aren't things that cannot be overcome.

"How do I make that happen?"

By remembering who you are:

An incredible mom, a great student (how many people could get through an NP program with young children, while pregnant and with the emotional stress you have been under?) and a loyal and honest wife that was truly dedicated to her family and partner.

By reminding yourself that you have your youth, your health, and a great family. Plus a newborn!!!

By reminding yourself that You have it all. Any woman that would go for him, has some pretty bad issues and in no way will ever compare to you. Trust me. This is his loss. Not yours. Time will make this more clear.

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But more so not wanting anything to be worse than it already is.

Hi T0's heart! I'm sorry for calling you dumb, but like all hearts in a state of heartbreak, you kind of are. Your strength is at other times.

T0 is having trouble applying advice she's receiving, because you're telling her it will make it worse. But you're an idiot, T0's heart. Stop whispering to her that you know what you're doing - you really don't. Every time she follows your advice, it accomplishes the opposite of what she wants for herself.

When she's stronger, and is less heartbroken, she can start listening to you again. But for now, please butt out and stop torturing the poor woman.

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He just left for the baby shower. I almost lost it on him spending an hour in the shower shaving himself and wearing new clothes. It's so disrespectful.

No, T0, it's not. He's not accountable to you any longer, and these emotions are you still seeing him as accountable to you. By his own choice, he's left that position.

You haven't set a boundary for him and he's still coming to her home. He's going to do what he's going to do in that situation. I think it's better to realize that you're mad at yourself for allowing your WH to primp in your bathroom because you haven't wanted to set some healthy boundaries yet.

You are struggling with him being there. Instead of torturing yourself, realize that this is a sign that it's time for a boundary, because you don't need this emotional turmoil. It's okay if you're not strong enough to handle him being there.

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He said when he left I'll text you later I'll come to the fireworks with you guys. I just said okay. But I think this is the perfect opportunity to have him NOT come.

I'm not sure. You already said "okay". If you'd reacted in the moment with a "Actually, I'm not sure about that", then yes, this would be a great place for boundaries.

Also...

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He's going out with whomever doing whatever he wants then coming for family time. I'm tired of sitting here like a weak woman like I'm just graced by his presence when he decides it's convenient for him to be around us.

You are angry and want to hurt him. That's not a good time to set a boundary, because this intention is going to come across.

When you set the boundary, it needs to be unemotional and it needs to be about you. Perhaps others think you could still do it with this instance, but I'm not sure it's time yet given you already said otherwise and you're feeling emotional and are liable to act out against your own self-interests...

Hey T0,

We are the same age with a somewhat similar story. As a man I wanted to tell you what happened to me and a viewpoint from your husband.

I was a walk away husband in a sense. Not physically, but I checked out of life in general. Didn't care about much of anything for some reason. I gained 30 lbs, insecure, the whole 9 yards. My wife tried helping but was more nagging than anything. The more she said do this, the more I did the other. I got to a point where I just flat out didn't do what she said bc to me it was complaining. Then one day she started going to the gym (she's not athletic at all so it surprised me). Next thing you know, she's going like everyday and getting sexy as all get out. She started dressing differently. I could see the confidence in her, before she didn't have much confidence at all. I started noticing this but didn't say anything. Then it began driving me crazy, especially because she never asked me if I noticed. I'm thinking, man I want in, I don't want to be left in the dust. She basically divorce busted me! Then she left with another guy. That part is not very meaningful to the story but its why I'm here. The point is that she became more sexy, extremely confident, and started living life. I noticed big time and got scared. So maybe you can do what my wife did, I'd bet your husband would start to notice and get scared as I did.

Now I'm doing that to her and she's beginning to notice with a few Jerry Springer moments sprinkled in lol. Big cat and mouse game right now.

Just saying I would bet you can do that too and I would bet it would work. I mentioned the Jerry Springer moments so be prepared for those bc they are probably coming. When they come just dust yourself off and keep going, their is light at the end of the tunnel.

Cadence

I did have to laugh at your post so thank you. And Juju thank you for your kind words.

The boundary stuff with not coming here is difficult. Per the L he has every right to come and go here as he pleases. It is just as much his house as it is mine.

I don't have the $$$ for a 5k lawyer retainer on top of him not paying bills for the 90-120 days it would take. So I have to be very cautious of that.

Yes i would like to have him stop coming here and using this as a hotel b I just have to figure out how to do that so that it doesn't do more harm for me.

The other thing H said to me before I left was that I always know everything. Like when he said he was leaving just for space for a week or two and I said I'm not stupid H you've done this before I know this story and how it plays out. He said ya because you know everything.

I want to be done. I want to not care. I would rather him do his primping elsewhere. He's either here or not. It's not come and go based on your plans.

I just don't know that I should make my statement about me. Because he says it's always what I want.

Juju - I'm trying to find me again. I feel I've lost myself. Being out with my friends and laughing and having fun is me. My friends all know me is the sarcastic outgoing life of the party and can talk to anyone.

Hi Dale,

I'm sorry to see you're here. Thank you so much for taking the time to post your story. I was wondering if your wife read DB until I read about the other man. She sounds like she was in a vulnerable place and Om just swooped right in. Im starting to try and do all those things. I don't know that H notices but I think the more I make myself feel better the easier it will get for me. Having a newborn certainly doesn't help my confidence.

I'm always super appreciative of a mans opinion. I do love all you ladies but it's nice to have both sides.

I just don't think he cares enough to notice me moving on. It would probably make him feel less guilty about what he's doing

"Having a newborn certainly doesn't help my confidence"

Moving on does not need to mean getting to the the gym and meeting someone. It can also mean just enjoying every moment with your baby and boys. Confidence can also come from being a great mom to some incredible kids that need you right now. You are very blessed. Truly, you have everything anyone could want right now.

Everything else will fall into place when its ready.

Originally Posted By: T0324

Per the L he has every right to come and go here as he pleases. It is just as much his house as it is mine.

Are you sure? If so, could you not - when you make the schedule - tell H that you'd like some privacy? If he's left then you don't want him popping in and that you'd like adequate notice and ideally he should start taking the kids to where he's living.

This is what he wanted, so give it to him.

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The other thing H said to me before I left was that I always know everything. Like when he said he was leaving just for space for a week or two and I said I'm not stupid H you've done this before I know this story and how it plays out. He said ya because you know everything.

In the other stories you've read, when the LBS tells the WH that they're doing the same thing they've done before, how did that turn out. Did the W ever stop and say "You know, you might be right." or did it just cause them to want to prove the LBS wrong? Because those feelings are real and lasting this time and they know exactly what they're doing?

I did this, T0. It was before I found DB. I said, "you're doing the same thing you did in 2014 and it's going to turn out the same way." ... Guess who did not agree with me? Nope, it's real this time. Really really real. The whole "my life is a mess and I'm unhappy and it's all her fault" was just a coincidence!

He even made reference to it in MC. "I made a mistake when I came back. I should have stayed away from her." ... OUCH.

Also, if H says you know everything, my guess was that was him telling you he did not appreciate your mind-reading. Inherently, it is disrespectful to try to tell someone you know them better than they know themselves. And it is an invalidating trap that I have fallen into myself, in the past. Now I know better.

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I want to be done. I want to not care.

There's the D word! I'll let it slide, since you are referring to yourself this time. But I will remind you again, there are posts on this here forum where someone uses the D word and it just meant they felt like they wanted no more. But feelings change.

My guess is what you really want is detachment. So focus on finding that and not letting his actions impact you.

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I just don't know that I should make my statement about me. Because he says it's always what I want.

And that was applicable when you were together.

If he's left, all bets are off. If you were not worried about what you wanted after being left, you'd be quite a doormat, wouldn't you? And, in general, people - especially waywards - aren't attracted to doormats.

He left, and you can be darned sure that you're worried about what you want. To do otherwise would be insanity.

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So my questions are -- what does that look like. I know you're probably sick of hearing it but until I am actually detached it is going to be faking it til I make it. I struggle with coming off as a bitch VS lovingly distancing. I know I will get to the point where I don't analyze every interaction and situation BUT I'm not there at this moment.

I know we use the term "lovingly" distancing, but I'm wondering if it's throwing you off just a bit. If you removed the word, "lovingly", and just think of distancing....would you have a better picture? Don't replace "lovingly" with anger, cold, pouty, or any of those type of negatives. Just think about distancing. Perhaps you need to work on plain ole distancing, before you can take on lovingly distancing, b/c of how you are so focused on what your H is thinking. (Just a thought).

Referring to my previous post of the female acting as if she's not interested........is a version of faking it. Something I heard growing up was "playing hard to get". Some people don't like it, but I honestly believe that is what the female is doing when she feels attraction for the male, but she does not reveal how much she would like to go out with him, or just be near him. Back in the day, if a female revealed too much of her feelings or acted too eager to get the male.......he would quickly retreat. It's his nature to pursue. He likes the challenge, and some will go to great lengths in getting the female. So, the female acts as if she is preoccupied with other things and not romatically interested in him. She lets him think he is chasing her, until she catches him. That's the name of the game. It may sound like a 1950ish movie theme......but I don't think nature is going to change some of this stuff. Although you are still legally M, acting as if you are not interested in being with a WS is as effective as it was before M. You don't have to be hateful.....just don't go out of your way to show how much you care. This is a 180 from what your feelings want to do.

Listen, we fake it all the time! We get up feeling half dead,, and get ourselves ready for work (after being up all night with the baby)......and fake it the rest of the day. We don't like some of our coworkers, customers, or patients, but we fake it with friendliness, patience, and politeness. We really aren't in the mood for sex, but we fake it...........? (Well, you know what I mean). In other words, instead of revealing our honest negative feelings.......we show another side we see as being professional and/or acceptable to those around us.

In showing a picture of how to act toward your WS during detachment,I really like the illustration of the checkout clerk. She gives you a friendly smile, may say something else in the way of small talk while she rings up the purchases, then tells you to have a nice day and she moves on to something else. It doesn't mean there is a relationship beyond the business transaction. You don't ask her personal questions. You take care of the transaction in a nice manner, and then you leave. Personal information, feelings, opinions, are not shared. It is a picture of how to act civil without crossing the line and getting personal or emotionally involved. Sometimes, we have to pretend we are this picture.

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So as it is I don't call or text. The only text I initiated was regarding the baby's Dr appointment. Other then that no communication on my end. When he texts I wait an hour to respond normally and only respond if it's kid or bill related.

Good. One little suggestion, don't wait an hour every time.

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As far as him coming here -- I started saying hi and I've made a point to head out and let him be with the kids. What the hell else am I supposed to do? I know to ask nothing of him his life or his plans BUT in the same sense I want some consistency for the kids.

I will bring up a schedule in the near future probably the next week or two just not right this minute.

Because...........? You still want him coming to stay overnight, although he doesn't help during the night and he comes and goes when he feels like it. It's really about your need to hold tightly to your end of that rope. Why can't he take the kids to where he is currently staying?

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But how does he feel I'm moving on from him when we're still around. I'm not going away this weekend with the boys I have a test Monday but am planning a vacation away for us. We will probably go on the boat Sunday. IWILLnot be inviting H. But how do I formulate a response if he asks about joining us for something this weekend? Not saying he will --- but on the off chance he does. He already told me he had a baby shower for his boss daughter so he won't be around Saturday so I don't have to worry about that.

Well first, it's not when "we" (as in the boys & you) are around him, but rather when "you" are with him. He will always have the boys, but it doesn't mean he has you. Know what I mean? To answer your question, I believe it's in the attitude he sees in you. The tone of voice you use, your posture, the expression on your face, etc. You can sleep next to a person and be emotionally detached. Here's the thing that most LBS's do not get........the WS senses when their LBS is over them. The problem is that you are scared to death he will actually believe you just might be over him, in spite of you saying you are done. Most LBS's think they have to prove how badly they want to stay M to the WS. I haven't seen that approach work yet. The WS wants what they can't have, and as long as you are assuring him that he has you......he will look at what he can't have. Why? B/c he is wayward, and that's a big part of how his mindset works. You have to act as if he can't have you b/c you aren't interested (not b/c he won't straighten up). If he senses he could really be losing you forever.......there's a good chance it will open his eyes and help set his brain in the right order.

If he asks if he can come along on the boat, simply tell him, "This has been hard for all of us and I'm sure you can understand my feelings when I say I prefer you don't come along". Then quickly end the conversation. If he has the gall to ask you if he can go with you........I wouldn't be too concerned of what he thinks about your answer. He has given up the right to go along on family outings. (But don't tell him he gave up that right, b/c he has to see it lived).

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Also-- is he wayward??? I don't know? I'm not sure of an active A although the fact that he's done this before and behaves similarly -- if it walks like a duck quacks like a duck then ...

Not that it matters in definition, but a person can be wayward without engaging in an affair. It begins with a wayward mindset. He is resentful, disrespecting, rejecting and rebelling against the life and the MR he had with you. That is the foundation of waywardness. He is going awry . You knew something was up when he started shaving his privates, and whether or not he has engaged in a PA.....we don't know. But he is in open rebellion, so I think some type of inappropriate behavior is probable. He may be into online stuff, or a number of other things, but there's something he wants to keep separated and secret from you. That is why MC didn't work. He has a secret agenda.

My advice is to stop chasing him, stop worrying about his thoughts of you, stop wearing your feelings on your sleeve, and drop the rope. I think you have to practice these things, in order to really detach.

TO,

Speaking as a man, I agree with Sandi. Detaching from your H will work. The moment he believes that you have lost interest, odds are that he will feel that you have replaced him. That thought alone will drive him crazy.

X3.

And for those of you who may remember, (and you have to be kind of OLD- but hey, it is what it is...) there's a song I grew up on and the repeating phrase is.... " a boy, chases a girl, until she catches him....", which fits very nicely into this tread of advice.

thread, not tread

Agree 100% with Sandi and Cadence.
Stop overthinking, sorry for the 4'x4'.
You have have been giving advice I would have loved/dreamed to have when I caught him the first time. Those ladies have so much knowledge.
TO, we are here for you and we know you can do it.
Life is a journey, it's like hiking, you see the top of the mountain but it takes energy, detours, and pauses to reach it.
Ask your lawyer if leaving his spouse without money for the welfare of the kids can be used as "abuse".

Thank you all. You all are so great to me. Sandi I read your post probably 10 times and made my friend read it as well haha

H was gone all day for the baby shower we didn't hear from him not that I expected to but I made sure to be out when he got home. We came back to the house so I could change the baby and I walked of the door to leave and H came with for fireworks. I took what Cadence said since I didn't say no to his comment earlier in the day and didn't say anything. I did t say two words to him in the car. I listened to music with the boys he made a little small talk about certain songs or something about the weather I just kind of uh huh'd him and kept about the song singing with the boys.

We enjoyed the fireworks. He was on his phone most of the time. Then told me he was talking to my friends husband. I just said cool. My friends husband knows all about it. That's who's house I was at the night H text me to tell me he was moving out. He has been wanting to talk to H over a beer but I've told him not to. He text me and asked me if he should respond to H. I told him whatever he wanted to do.

Anyway, H was talking to the boys about what we would do next year for July 4th. I was thinking to myself we will not be having family outings and was just laughing to myself that he's so crazy.

Long story short I'm getting better at my interactions. Still haven't snooped on anything since Thursday. I have to say I feel better not looking.

I'm going to drop the rope. Thinking of the cashier helped me so much tonight. It reminds me to ask no uestuons which is what I was still doing before. I would ask about work or something small just to make conversation. Now I'm just not making any conversation lol it's hard for me because I'm a talker but luckily I have the boys to talk to lol they have no choice but to interact with me

Ugh had the book under the baby's bed he was sleeping I went in the laundry room to do laundry and he started crying while I was there. I came in my room to H looking at the cover of the book divorce remedy how to save your M. FML

All my hard work and he knows I'm reading stuff to try and save the M.

Oh God, T0. I'm so sorry to hear this!

What happened after he saw the book?

Not great, but not the end of the world, T0. The answer might be as simple as getting a "how to live a great life after divorce" type of book and - oops - leaving it out.

Don't act embarrassed or ashamed; you're simply doing your homework and you feel you owe it to the kids to feel like you did your research about the future. When you have kids together, you don't take this stuff lightly (except for the waywards). That's the type of curious scholarly person that you are, after all. And you can say that to H if he brings it up. Otherwise, ignore, and carry on.

(But this also speaks to the larger conversation about him being around and a need for privacy.)

Sounds like a good idea Cadence. I'll grab another book and leave it sitting in the same place.

We're going out on the boat in a bit .. I heard S6 asked H to go. He said no he's going to work. That makes it easier on me because I've been avoiding him all morning.

I'm trying to let go of him literally siting here on the couch all night last night and all morning not interacting with anyone but just texting on his phone. What is the point in being here... just to say you're here. I feel like at some point I'm going to end up saying something about the phone. I also feel like he's trying to bait me with it because I haven't said anything about OW in a couple weeks.

...or a 'dating after divorce' one - that'll give him something to think about.

Really though - I wouldn't worry about what he may think of what you do. It's time to let that go. It did take time for me to really get there, but I came to see that what I thought about what I did was what really mattered. What XH thinks about what I did isn't really on my radar at all and it doesn't really concern me at all because I thought his behaviour and perceptions were so skewed when we split up, I wouldn't really value his opinion anyway.

Looking back, my marriage mattered to me a lot and I tried to save it as best I could with the tools I had at that time. There is peace in knowing that. Your H may or may not be lucky enough to find that peace going forward, but it is something to be grateful for.

Enjoy your boat trip Sweetie xx

Hi, Sotto! I chuckled at the dating after divorce, that would be pretty funny!

I am still here struggling but I think I am getting a LITTLE better each day. Yesterday I packed up all 3 boys and took them on the boat, H watched me do everything then came out to say goodbye to the boys and walked back in the house without uttering a word to me, I just said as he was walking in Bye H. I still get hurt by these actions but I think its lessening each time. I had previously asked H if he would be able to watch the baby for a bit last night as I had a study session for my exam this morning. After being on the boat and having a good time I realized, I would rather not see him tonight. So I sent a text, Hey, we are going to skip the study session and I'm just going to study alone so don't worry about having to come by. Thanks! Well we didn't get home from the boat til 10pm, I was exhausted and carried in 3 sleeping children with about 10 bags, H was on the couch. Not only was I surprised he came to the house but was raging inside that he sat on the couch watching TV while I made several trips carrying everyone and everything in. I didn't say a word. I was the happy cashier and woke the baby to give him a bath and talked with the boys while they were in the bath too about how much fun we had. H didn't say much of anything and came in to kiss the boys goodnight and again didn't acknowledge me. I didn't say goodnight to him, didn't feel I needed to.

This is where I struggle. How is being the friendly cashier VS letting him walk all over me. Part of me wants to say why the F do you come here if you dont do a DAMN thing!? I need you here IF youre going to help but if youre going to WATCH me do these things and not step up and help then it hurts me more because it angers me to see you sitting there while I do everything.

He is just so far gone, so emotionally and mentally detached from me completely. I did not ask any personal questions of him, didn't say anything about all of his bags by the front door. NOTHING, NADA, ZIP. My mom thinks that I need to make him feel important, my sweet mom always wanting to see the good in everyone. She said that H has told both her and my uncle he doesn't feel like I need him and doesn't feel appreciated or important. She is afraid if I continue to act as if and am just friendly but distant that it will further reinforce that he isn't important and I don't need him.

So I feel so torn, I don't know whether to [censored] or go blind! lol! I do know I am getting better at faking it. I don't know if me asking him nothing is making him be in a more shitty mood because his friendliness has drastically decreased in the last 2 weeks and friendly is nonexistent. Cordial isn't even really present. He looks at me with disgust at the off chance he even looks at me. I caught him looking at me when I wasn't looking when we were at the fireworks on July 4th. It's just sad really.

So I will continue the course. I thought about reaching out to him about a schedule at the end of this week but I'm afraid it will end up in a R discussion and I don't want that to happen. His complaint was that I always have to have a plan and why can't I just let things happen and see where they go. I don't mind doing that so much UNTIL the point of him being here isn't good for me. I don't believe that him coming here and staying every night is a positive sign. I truly believe h is doing it for his image so he can say to people he 'did the right thing.' So I'm still up in the air about the schedule. He CANNOT take the boys to his boss' house... my mom offered him to stay at her house and he could have the boys overnight there. I do not want the boys staying at a strangers house. Plus its 2 bedroom and her daughter lives there, I believe H is on the couch -- I haven't asked. I don't mind if he takes the boys at all but staying the night there isn't feasible at this time.

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He is just so far gone, so emotionally and mentally detached from me completely

He isn't treating you well so it's understandable to feel rejected.

However these aren't HIS feelings. These are YOUR feelings. Be aware of the difference.

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So I will continue the course.

Good. You've been doing much better T0. The pain will diminish as you continue to grow in strength, and a large part of this is being able to walk your own path without being derailed by his.

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I thought about reaching out to him about a schedule at the end of this week but I'm afraid it will end up in a R discussion and I don't want that to happen.

Outstanding.

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His complaint was that I always have to have a plan and why can't I just let things happen and see where they go.

Great 180.

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I don't mind doing that so much UNTIL the point of him being here isn't good for me. I don't believe that him coming here and staying every night is a positive sign. I truly believe h is doing it for his image so he can say to people he 'did the right thing.'

This is more mind reading.

Pretend there was a 50/50 chance your marriage perseveres and you rebuild a good life together if you DB your butt off, and a 50/50 chance he decides to file and never look back no matter what. Do you throw away your chance to save your family to preempt feeling taken advantage of? To me I'd be PROUD to be the kind of person that would stand by your family, and if that means that I'm taken advantage of, then good for them. At least I like myself and can look in the mirror.

Besides, I don't buy the idea that he's doing this to 'look good' at all. Not even a tiny, little bit. Seriously T0- look at all the posts on these forums. You've read them for years. WAS's lie, cheat, steal, lash out, and become abusive in every possible way. Their moral compass totally breaks. I don't think 'looking good' is on their mind because in their twisted reality anything they do is the LBS's fault. Granted there are a couple of people that go to therapy to be able to play the 'I tried' card, but I expect that they are still conflicted and the part of them that is still clinging to the idea of maintaining decent behavior is causing them to show up out of habit (like the last twitches of the decent person they were as they die).

But if your H is there, he's there because that's where he chooses to be. Not with OW. Not with his buddies. Not flaunting a new relationship on facebook. Not partying. Home with his wife and newborn baby while his relationship is as bad as it's ever been and he's not even on speaking terms.

Of course we can all focus on the pain he's causing, or what he's not doing, and minimize what he is doing. But that doesn't sound like the less critical and more appreciative T0 3.0 you're choosing to be.

Oh- and I know you're getting asked in real life and on these forums why you're trying to save this marriage. And I do agree that there are real concerns about being ready to jump into something destructive or back into a negative loop without some structure to help you guys do better. But there is a very good reason to save this marriage. One so self evident that I can't say it any more simply than this: You don't give up on a marriage.

For now though just continue to let things deescalate. I don't believe he's 'detached' emotionally, but T0, if you two can get there that is a step in the right direction. Let the dust continue to settle and calm down. Eventually the thoughts and emotional reactions will calm, and you'll see what I see- that he's choosing to be there on your couch. In some ways he has 'walked away' such as his words and his hurtful behavior, but in one very important way he hasn't walked and is actually showing some commitment- he's sitting there on your couch at night. Right now this is the best he can do, and it's a huge deal.

The situation in my marriage was very similar to yours when my W walked. We weren't speaking, we were unable to extract ourselves from a negative cycle. I was at home paying the bills and not much else. She was taking care of the kids and not much else. We were pretty stuck and defeated. I was feeling pretty defeated for sure. But I knew I didn't want my M to end, so I stuck around figuring that we'd find a way. She found an old highschool friend on facebook and the rest is history.

Try to be appreciative. We talk about detaching by reassuring newcomers that they will be ok even if their spouse leaves. But this reassurance can easily be twisted into the same rationalizations WAS's use to comfort themselves that D can be for the best, kids are 'resilient', etc. Tell that to my S13 who is getting bullied by XW's OM who he hates, and they are fighting every night and he is being sent to bed without supper, and I am in another household unable to do much to help.

Sorry, got carried away. So yes, no matter what you can be ok and your life will continue. But don't give up. Just let go and try to do your part. Faith. Patience. Belief. Gratitude. These are the pillars you need to lean on right now.

Hey T0 - saw you posting to others! Great job.

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H watched me do everything then came out to say goodbye to the boys and walked back in the house without uttering a word to me, I just said as he was walking in Bye H.

Ugh. I know this feeling. Mine, before I moved out, could only say a robotic "hello" to me, as if it pained him to greet me. I've never heard him speak to anyone else like that. I'd just say a chipper "hi" or "hey", and it grew to annoy me so much. Oh, if he were to act like a human being to me I'd fall all over myself chasing him or something? Yeah, get over yourself, dude.

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Not only was I surprised he came to the house but was raging inside that he sat on the couch watching TV while I made several trips carrying everyone and everything in.

Yup. When I moved out, I and my 70 year old mother carried everything. I had movers for the furniture and really heavy things, but he didn't lift a finger.

I'm still not clear why he hated me so much. Of course, now, he tells people that we just grew apart. Oopsie! Yes, that's why we're not speaking, you have no idea where I live, and why you are in dire financial straits due to your own choices. Yup, grew apart. Such a shame.

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How is being the friendly cashier VS letting him walk all over me.

Because you are choosing to act and not REact. You're not going to let Moody McSelfish impact your day. Plus, we've already discussed how he WANTS to bait you into reacting to him or scolding him or telling him he's immature, because that gives him proof he's doing the right thing. So you are not reacting, no matter what. You are stable, mature, and enjoying life and you're not going to take his bait.

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I need you here IF youre going to help but if youre going to WATCH me do these things and not step up and help then it hurts me more because it angers me to see you sitting there while I do everything.

I know how obnoxious it is, T0, but you're looking to him to be in the role you've always known him in. He is making a statement by doing this, and boy oh boy is he hoping you'll shout the above at him. Don't. He's playing the short game but you're playing the long game. He may get momentary satisfaction, but you're showing him he can't impact you like he used to and you are a strong woman who won't let nonsense ruffle your feathers.

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My mom thinks that I need to make him feel important, my sweet mom always wanting to see the good in everyone. She said that H has told both her and my uncle he doesn't feel like I need him and doesn't feel appreciated or important. She is afraid if I continue to act as if and am just friendly but distant that it will further reinforce that he isn't important and I don't need him.

Your mom is nervous for you and wants you to be happy. Were you to do what she told you, you'd be pursuing him. He does not want you to pursue him - he will get angrier, more petty, and distance himself more if you were to pursue him.

Your H is a WH, not a WAH. Reread Sandi's reply to you about the difference, and why you cannot do things like your mother is suggesting.

Your mom is sweet, but she feels powerless, just like you sometimes do.

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I do know I am getting better at faking it. I don't know if me asking him nothing is making him be in a more shitty mood because his friendliness has drastically decreased in the last 2 weeks and friendly is nonexistent. Cordial isn't even really present. He looks at me with disgust at the off chance he even looks at me. I caught him looking at me when I wasn't looking when we were at the fireworks on July 4th. It's just sad really.

The only interaction this man wants with you right now is a fight. He says he doesn't want that, but his actions betray him, don't they? He wants you to freak out and yell and cry and make him feel better about leaving. But you are smart, and you know the best thing you can do for yourself is give him nothing to work with. Let him doubt himself when you are showing him that you know you have value, with or without him. That's attractive, and he hates that you can do it. So keep doing it

I saw similar to what you are describing and it is so incredibly bizarre, isn't it? H used to watch me. If we were in the same room together, but not talking (I might make small talk here and there) he'd clear his throat over and over and over again. It was a very clear "Why aren't you noticing me here and why aren't you trying to talk to me?" Yeah, no thanks. Before I moved out, I wore a new outfit he hadn't seen before, did my hair a way I never did it, and had a friend on standby texting me multiple messages. So he got to see my phone ringing with notifications and me picking it up and laughing/smiling at the contents, and then I left and didn't come back until late.

I'm not sure that did anything for me, but it made me feel pretty great.

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I thought about reaching out to him about a schedule at the end of this week but I'm afraid it will end up in a R discussion and I don't want that to happen.

You are acting, not REacting, remember T0? If you're not bringing up R stuff, it means he would be, and you can say "You know, I really don't want to talk about that." and stop the conversation. You aren't powerless to his whims. Just look at what you've already accomplished!

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His complaint was that I always have to have a plan and why can't I just let things happen and see where they go.

<incredulous look on face> "H, you left. A parenting schedule is what separated and divorced parents have. What you're talking about is bygones and I'd rather not go there. Now, here is what I'm thinking for the schedule..."

T0, the theme I see in all of your confusion is that you haven't accepted that your M as it was is over. You have't dropped the rope. I think you're creating these doubts because of things he said when you were still trying to save the M. Grieve the loss if you need to, but he's gone. It doesn't mean you can't work on a new M in the future, but the one you had is gone.

Cadence, I loved that post.
TO, acting instead of reacting is a must by doing that you are regaining control of your life and removing from him the major tool he was using against you, making you react to justify his behavior/actions. He knows he will be judged by others if he leaves you with 3 kids, his image will be tarnished so he needs "examples" of how terrible his life was with you, by creating those fights he can use them to support his choices with him in the role of the poor guy who couldn't take it anymore.
I believe in you. You are starting to change, to be more in control.
Go TO.

Hi Zues,

So hes not on the couch every night. He comes when he wants and the same nights every week Mon Tues Thurs he is gone not coming home. On the nights he comes here he doesnt show up until 8,9,10pm On the nights he doesnt come home he leaves work by 5pm. So thats why I belieeve hes just coming here to say hes here. Much like MC, he already said we went 3 times and it didnt work. Im done, the only way Ill go back is if its to discuss how to handle separating with the kids.

Hi Cadence, thanks as always for your words. I need to stop reacting and just ACT first.

Okay so here we go... going to lean heavily on ya'll to help me then.

I text H today just as a feeler letting him know he got a package. I haven't text'd him first since he moved out almost 3 weeks ago except the one text about the baby's dr appt.

Me: Hey, you got a package here today. S6 swears its for him haha
H: Oh ya, I'll get it tomorrow it's a tshirt I got for my boss (the female he is living with). I'll be staying at her house tonight. I am getting up early and working at another shop tomorrow morning.
Me: oh okay, my mom said she thought she saw you when she was leaving the grocery store (my mom lives right by where his bos s lives)
H: Ya that probably was me, I just got to her house. I'm building a crib for her (her other daughter is the one who's baby shower he went to) and then I have to be at the shop at 6AM for the other shop manager to let me in.

I don't plan on replying but PART of me wanted to be sarcastic and say how thoughtful of you, or you're such a nice guy to do that so her boyfriend doesn't have to. HENCE I don't believe for a second he's building a crib. This daughter doesn't even live with the mom, so he's going to build the crib at her house and transport it put together to the house she lives at? Really, I've had 3 kids and know how it goes. This is what he did last time - anything and everything for the boss family just to get in on the good side.

So is this an opportunity for me to say something like that or do I just not respond? I have this URGE for him to stop giving me these ridiculous stories. I'm sorry that all the women you're surrounding yourself with have been married and divorced many times and have 3+ children (the boss and her daughters) by all different fathers. I am an educated woman and am not as dumb as those that you surround yourself with.

I want to speak from a sense of power. A sense of H - I am not going to listen to your BS anymore.

But I need to do this as an action and not a reaction. So any help is appreciated. I thought about sending a text at some point this week, Hey H, keep an eye on your email, I am sending you a proposed schedule for the boys. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

I am no longer going to in the schedule be asking him to stay the night. I will set up every other weekend he can take the boys. He can have them overnight if he has his OWN place or chooses to stay at my moms. If not I was thinking since hes paying the house I may leave and go stay the weekend away and he can stay here with the kids. During the week I was going to list 2-3 nights a week he could take the boys. I'm not sure how that will work. He won't want to take them overnight because he has work and doesn't want to drive back and forth but I think I should still offer it as part of the plan because that will be what a real schedule just may look like.

So anyone with any advice on how to start standing up, being less of a doormat, not putting up with his [censored], I'm all ears.

IF he put half as much effort into being a part of OUR family as he does the boss's family I wouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place. He is so concerned with EVERYONE else but us. He hasn't once asked about buying groceries, doesn't ask about the baby, NOTHING. Yet he can go to a baby shower, build cribs, etc... not that I necessarily believe that but he never once went to ONE of my baby showers.

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So hes not on the couch every night. He comes when he wants and the same nights every week Mon Tues Thurs he is gone not coming home. On the nights he comes here he doesnt show up until 8,9,10pm On the nights he doesnt come home he leaves work by 5pm. So thats why I belieeve hes just coming here to say hes here. Much like MC, he already said we went 3 times and it didnt work. Im done, the only way Ill go back is if its to discuss how to handle separating with the kids.

I stand corrected on the details. The point is that you continue to mindread.

I love cadence's and some of the others' advice about picturing WH wanting you to start something so he can validate his decision, and if that narrative helps you, great...but here's the thing- that's still more mind reading.

We don't know if WH wants you to snap at him so he can validate his own decision.
We don't know if he wants to make himself feel better about leaving.
These are all stories we are making up.

If they help you, then great. Use them for a bit. But it's very, very, very important to learn to recognize reality from your own personal narrative because your instrument panel is going to be reading haywire for a while.

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So is this an opportunity for me to say something like that or do I just not respond? I have this URGE for him to stop giving me these ridiculous stories. I'm sorry that all the women you're surrounding yourself with have been married and divorced many times and have 3+ children (the boss and her daughters) by all different fathers. I am an educated woman and am not as dumb as those that you surround yourself with.

I want to speak from a sense of power. A sense of H - I am not going to listen to your BS anymore.

But I need to do this as an action and not a reaction. So any help is appreciated.

Instead of trying to change HIS behavior and not have him tell you things you don't believe, why don't you simply change YOUR behavior and not let it get to you? Seriously.

Call him a liar and there will be a grain of truth in what he's saying that allows him to make you look like the crazy paranoid one that's in the wrong.

Just let it go T0. It's not being a doormat. It's detaching. My XW says all kinds of things that I just shrug off. It took practice. But you can only control you.

I'm working on letting it go....

My heart is still broken in a million pieces and I'm just trying to figure out how to stand up for myself when he lies.

I feel hopeless for any future R between us. He is showing me he doesn't give 2 shits about me. I had the boys call tonight I make a point not to get on the phone. He doesn't say goodnight or anything like he was 2 weeks ago.

I need to start believing him that this is it. I need to really let go. I am working at it. It will happen. I will throw in the towel.

I don't know why I keep looking at him as the man he was and keep having these expectations of him. I know I have to stop that. I don't know why it's so hard for me to separate that that is not who he is anymore. I miss my best friend. I miss the person I knew I could call and he would do anything for. The person that cared about me and how my day was. I wish I felt like I mattered. That I was appreciated for everything I do for our boys and our life so that he can come and go as he pleases. I feel so alone.

Oh well. Lots of working on me and letting these things go.

Thanks Zues

I forgot to say earlier I am sorry to hear about your son

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My heart is still broken in a million pieces and I'm just trying to figure out how to stand up for myself when he lies.

You let it go. Aside from general human decency, he has no obligation to be truthful with you.

This is another trigger for you - feeling like someone is lying to you. What's that about? Does it make you think they think you're stupid? Because you're not. Hold your head up high and chuckle (and vent to us.)

Self-awareness, T0. "Okay, self. I think H is lying to me and it's making me so aggravated. What should I do? Act out? Fantasize about telling him off? Or just sit quietly with the discomfort and let it pass over me, because I am acting and not reacting? I control me. I control how I feel. I am not at his mercy."

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I feel hopeless for any future R between us. He is showing me he doesn't give 2 shits about me. I had the boys call tonight I make a point not to get on the phone. He doesn't say goodnight or anything like he was 2 weeks ago.

Are you recognizing when you're starting to spiral by now? Because here you go. T0's mental catalogue of his actions and what they "mean".

That's a trap you fall into time and time again and it's time to look around, notice you're sinking, and pull yourself out.

What about this process is rewarding to you? The feeling like you're protecting yourself from hurt? That's just an illusion, T0. All you're doing is torturing yourself and taking yourself out of the moment. I'd like to see you living less in your head and more in the moment. Feeling the sun on your skin. Listening to your boys' laugh. Joy is still out there if you look for it, T0.

Quote:

I don't know why I keep looking at him as the man he was and keep having these expectations of him. I know I have to stop that. I don't know why it's so hard for me to separate that that is not who he is anymore.

I think it may be that you're afraid to drop the rope and let it be.

What happens if you let go of this idea that if you just did or said the right thing, things would turn around quickly? Are there issues of self-worth in there? What happens if you focus on you and stop worrying about H's every move? Do you suddenly lose value as a human being?

H doesn't determine if you are worthy of love. You already are. What you're doing is handing your worth over to him, and that's not an attractive behavior. Human nature is that we don't like people who are so focused on us that they lose themselves. Especially if we have our own self-loathing to deal with (ahem, H), that actively lowers the value we assign them. Meaning. the value they add to our lives.

Get defiant, T0. Get mad. Why do you allow H this power? You have all of it if you'd only take it back from the struggling flawed (as we all are) man.

Quote:

I miss my best friend. I miss the person I knew I could call and he would do anything for. The person that cared about me and how my day was.

These are natural feelings. I feel them, too. ((T0)) I know it's small consolation, but we care! We wonder how your day was. And another man will want to be there for you and find out about your day. Maybe it's H, or maybe it's someone different.

This is the end of a chapter in your life, not the end of your life. I hope you grow strong enough to start looking forward to seeing what's on the next page.

Quote:

I wish I felt like I mattered.

You do matter, T0. Something to start thinking about - as a replacement for cataloging his every move - is where did this feeling come from? Is it specific to H or have you always felt that you had value only when you were in a relationship and a man loved you? If that's a belief you're carrying around, you're liable to settle for less than what you deserve. You're liable to be attracted to distant men who won't quiiiiiiite give you what you want, and you try to "fix" them.

This is an opportunity to work on yourself, T0. Any improvements that you make will mean significant improvements in your love life. But that's not the only reason to do them; you want to take care of yourself and value yourself and stop looking for someone else to do it for you. We come into this world alone and we leave it alone, T0. You have to be your biggest fan. I imagine you want your boys to have this sort of self-worth, so isn't it important to start modeling it for them?

What I'm saying doesn't mean you can't be hurt and you can't grieve. What I'm talking about are the pieces that seem unnecessary and very painful for you.

Is there a strong woman in your life that you look up to? Maybe she doesn't stick out, but there's someone who is calm, happy, and doesn't overreact when life throws a stumbling block in her path. I think it would be worth identifying someone, and starting to ask yourself what she would do in these situations.

Who in your life acknowledges negative emotions but doesn't let herself sink? Who has grace under pressure, and doesn't entertain the idea that she only has worth if she's with a man? A hint to finding her is that men find her very attractive, because they'd be drawn in by her confidence.

I'm trying to think of creative ways to help you get out of your own head, and I hope you're putting some thought into that, too, because you've got enough to deal with without putting yourself through more pain.

Hi Cadence,

On my phone so this will be short. All great thinking points... I do not need H to value my worth. H was only my second 'serious relationship' we have been together since I was 18. Really all I know... I know I was spiraling last night. I posted here and moved on. Didn't react or do anything with those thoughts just had a sad moment posted it and moved on.

So I have confirmation of H and OW. It's the boss daughter. H said he was storming today = lie. He is out with her on his motorcycle.

I also checked the phone bill after this and he was texting while in our home this weekend.

So yes he's not committed to our M or making strides but the last we talked he just needed space so he could figure out why he feels this way and that we would figure things out. Him taking space didn't mean it was a bad thing he just needed some time to himself.

So what do I do? Train are you still around?

He thinks he's going to come this way and go to fireworks as a family. He didn't actually tell me this and we hadn't agreed on it I heard him tell the boys last night when I had them call to say goodnight

Not somtorming lol - working

Well I hope you guys will approve of this. I did call H this morning to see what plans were for tonight. He didn't answer and didn't call back. He text me a few hours later asking if we were on the boat.

M: I tried calling you this morning to figure out what the plans were but never heard back.
H: I never had a missed call
H: I'm on my way to the house now.
M: The boys are on the boat, I'm getting ready to leave.
H: That's okay ill still come spend the night and I;ll clean up around the house.
M: Don't worry about it staying the night, we won't be home until late. Thanks anyway, Happy 4th!

no response... I see he isn't going to stay at his boss' hes going to stay at a mutual friends tonight. I hope my interaction was okay. I am trying to enforce the boundary of you cannot be gone all day with OW and then come here for family time for a place to stay and have your needs met on the end of the family. I hope this is the right thing.

I didn't mention anything about what he did today or if he was at work, etc etc. Just leaving it be and letting it go, well trying to .

oh and I did say.. you can come by tomorrow night, the boys have practice from 6-730 but other then that they will be here.

I guess I'm not understanding the logic of contacting him to find out whether his whims/social life having him acting as a father to the kids.

My impression - and I could be wrong - was that you remain upset about the lack of boundaries and his perceived cake-eating, but don't want to take any steps to set boundaries and end the cake-eating, so you texted him.

The text exchange was about trying to control his behavior rather than focusing on setting boundaries that work for you, demonstrating to him via your actions that you are creating distance and focusing on yourself, rather than him.

Originally Posted By: T0324

Me: Hey, you got a package here today. S6 swears its for him haha
H: Oh ya, I'll get it tomorrow it's a tshirt I got for my boss (the female he is living with). I'll be staying at her house tonight. I am getting up early and working at another shop tomorrow morning.
Me: oh okay, my mom said she thought she saw you when she was leaving the grocery store (my mom lives right by where his bos s lives)

T- your interactions with H are sounding a little too chummy I think, given that he's actively engaging in an A. I would suggest being a little more business-like:

Me: Hey, you got a package here today. S6 swears its for him haha

H: Oh ya, I'll get it tomorrow it's a tshirt I got for my boss (the female he is living with). I'll be staying at her house tonight. I am getting up early and working at another shop tomorrow morning.

Me: oh okay, my mom said she thought she saw you when she was leaving the grocery store (my mom lives right by where his boss lives)

Quote:

I don't plan on replying but PART of me wanted to be sarcastic and say how thoughtful of you, or you're such a nice guy to do that so her boyfriend doesn't have to. HENCE I don't believe for a second he's building a crib. This daughter doesn't even live with the mom, so he's going to build the crib at her house and transport it put together to the house she lives at?

So is this an opportunity for me to say something like that or do I just not respond?

Don't respond. You're still super-focused on H, it's time to back off and think about YOU.

Quote:

I want to speak from a sense of power. A sense of H - I am not going to listen to your BS anymore.

SILENCE SPEAKS VOLUMES. Burn that into your mind :-) If you're done with his BS then there's no need for sarcasm, snippy remarks or nagging. Simply be quiet.

Quote:

But I need to do this as an action and not a reaction. So any help is appreciated. I thought about sending a text at some point this week, Hey H, keep an eye on your email, I am sending you a proposed schedule for the boys. Please let me know what you think. Thanks!

Again, be business-like. And don't send a message that you are going to be sending him a message, LOL! Just do the schedule and send it to him, say something like "proposed schedule attached."

Quote:

So anyone with any advice on how to start standing up, being less of a doormat, not putting up with his [censored], I'm all ears.

See above :-)

Quote:

IF he put half as much effort into being a part of OUR family as he does the boss's family I wouldn't even be having this conversation in the first place. He is so concerned with EVERYONE else but us.

I think the jury is still out on whether he's MLC, but this type of behavior is very consistent with MLCers. It's the classic "my spouse has been stolen and replaced with an alien" scenario. You simply cannot expect your H to behave like he used to, he's checked out for the time being.

To, I don't mean to bombard you with feedback, but I really have to say that I think less is more. Your texting appears that you are trying too hard to look like you are detached, which could be perceive as just that. He knows you are hurt, so this appears unnatural. I honestly don't think you should call him or text him at all. There is no reason to make nice or appear friendly with the man that just broke your heart and walked out on your family. The "haha" and trying to connect about the kids is something that comes months or years down the line after detachment has occurred IMO.

Now I am not in your (very painful) shoes, but as an outsider there is a giant discrepancy between how you feel and your actions and I think he is bound to pick up on that. Plus, why let him think he can just walk out and you are still are going to be buddies with him? That's not a healthy response of a person with any self confidence. I am not suggesting you be rude or play games, but you do not have to pursue this type of dynamic at all. Let him do all initiating and pursing of communication, and you can step back and give him no hints of where you are at. He is not safe for you right now.

Can you go as dark as possible and take an all business approach? At least for a few months so your emotions can simmer down? I would say no calling and texting unless a medical emergency. In terms of a schedule with kids, I would email a very simple/concise, matter of fact format, schedule proposal. One that leaves little room for negotiation or ongoing discussions. You can also include that he please stick to it and that you and the kids need consistency right now. The email also keeps an organozed paper-trail. And personally, I would not allow him to come/go late at night or even spend the night on the couch, as he is not even helpful.

Sorry if this is blunt. I tend to take a very firm line approach to people like your H, and I did the same with mine. I had to teach him how to treat me. IMO, less is always more--less communication, less interactions, less seeing him at all, no pretend family time or he pretends to help, etc--just keep that in mind, when in doubt. Until he feels the consequences of his actions or the loss of you, he has no reason to want to come back.

More so, don't you deserve better than this? And don't you kids? Really think about it. Do you want to be buddies with someone that treats you like crap? He gets a friendly text from his Ex when he starts treating her and the kids with kindness and respect. That can take a long time for anyone tho.

Blu

T0 - sorry...

you are getting great feedback. What Bluwave said really resonated with me - for you, and I hope you will read her words, again.

Sometimes I think there is skimming going on with you b/c you'll outright say you must let go, and are working on moving forward and

accepting that he's NOT the man for you now and you're working on that,

but 2 hours later you'll post about how to behave around him or how to text him something so that you can "sound like 'X' but not too much of 'Y'"...and the loop repeats.

The brutal reality is that your h is not available for you now. So, Other than making things more annoying for either one of you, by small choices of daily interactions,

the reality is you have only one course of action available for your sanity. And it's to detach soooooo much more than you have been and so much more consistently.

I know it's hard and it's not linear!

Maybe the harder thing for you (which I recognize from personal experience) is that deep down we suspect this 2nd time around, the whole DB and GAL and PMA stuff is not nearly as likely to work itself out. I bet that is empirically verifiable, okay?

But That ^^ changes nothing. You still have to detach, probably more so.

Without detachment, you won't get to the other side of this. Without detachment you will continue to spin and cycle, and spew now & then (which your h richly deserves, but which gets you nowhere),

and after a bit, your baby will turn 1, or 3 or 5...??

I can say from experience that (other than not hoarding money),

my biggest regret is spending so much time not believing what was in front of me - until it was too obvious to ignore, and too energy consuming for the illusion to remain.

You said you have the legal info you need, correct? Okay so,

Here is the good news.

Your course of action to save this marriage - is the exact same course of action you must take to save yourself.

Does this^^ make sense to you?

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the insight on the communication Blu and Another ... outside perspective besides mine is good because when I think my communication is 'right' it obviously isn't from a DB standpoint.

25 - I think I'm getting there with detachment. I'm accepting well getting there on what is right now.

Two nights ago H was here... long story short he told me he was 'done' that it was over he's moving on with his life. And no I didn't bring up this conversation. Someone can only take so much and that him being gone has made him realize how happy he is without me. That he looks at me and feels nothing for me besides being the Mom of his boys. That he will always love me because of that but doesnt love me or have feelings for me as a wife. I replied as curtly as I could and just said I was sorry he felt that way. I understand how he could feel that way after being here and having weekly talks about our future. I then said I was sorry he felt there was better out there for him. I told him it was no longer in my best interest for him to continuing coming here and staying the night. He said we can still do things as a family go to dinner do things wit the kids. I told him no. You have removed me as your wife so WE are no longer a family. He said so what's best for the kids is us to do those things and that's how you're going to be. I said well what's really best for the kids is to be in an intact family but that's not an option so the rest will get sorted out. I didn't yell cry or anything. I got up after saying that and went to my room.

He still showed up here the last two nights. Came in said hello, took the baby so I could do my homework. Text me about some bills he was taking care of and has come in to say goodnight which he had never been doing. PLEASE don't read into me explaining these things as I think they mean anything. I don't.

I'm taking the day to enjoy the boys and will be tackling the issue of him continuing to come over after I enjoy the weekend with the boys. After digesting that conversation I just needed to focus on school my test and my papers that were due. Everything was completed as of last night so today is my first day off to enjoy it. I made a few calls to other L yesterday to set up a few more consultations. Plus even if I don't use them it just means H can't since I had a consult and it's a conflict of interest

I can confidently say he has no idea the road he is about to embark on. He really thinks we're going to be buddies.

Plus I swear if I have to hear I'm done or I'm moving on or it's over one more time my head might spin around and explode.

I think you are on the right track, TO.

Keep moving forward without him. This guy isn't a prize.

TO:

You are going to hear the best interest of the kids argument every time you don't give him what he wants or the two of you disagree. Your strength will get you through this.

Originally Posted By: T384

Two nights ago H was here... long story short he told me he was 'done' that it was over he's moving on with his life. And no I didn't bring up this conversation.

That's how he feels right now. It could change in months, weeks or even 5 minutes.

Quote:

I told him it was no longer in my best interest for him to continuing coming here and staying the night. He said we can still do things as a family go to dinner do things wit the kids. I told him no.

GOOD!!!! You put him on notice that you are not going to be a party to his cake-eating. Now stick to those boundaries!

Quote:

He said so what's best for the kids is us to do those things and that's how you're going to be.

Right, like this is YOUR fault! The stuff that comes out of their mouths just boggles the mind.

Quote:

Plus I swear if I have to hear I'm done or I'm moving on or it's over one more time my head might spin around and explode.

It's a temperature check. He wants you to beg/ plead/ cry. He wants to have control even in separation. If he says it again then just smile and say "I've decided to move on as well." I bet if you do he'll break into full pursuit mode. That doesn't mean he wants you back, but he DOES want you to stay on as Plan B.

Man T0 you sounded great! Formerly T0, now T3?? AS is right, he's feeling you out. I think we are all guilty of saying crazy things like that sometimes just to see what the reaction will be. He sounds like I used to be. Just very stubborn and prideful. Pouting almost. If you continue like you did last post, you going to be quite alright;)

T3
((( )))

It hurts and then, yes, it gets better. It's NOT Linear so don't get mad at yourself for backslides. They happen.

Please do yourself a favor and check out the site ... b/c she is spot on in how she portrays WAS's, and she is helpful AND hilarious and she lists various ways we can get gas lighted by our spouse. It helps us to know we are not fools to believe in a spouse, and to be gentle with ourselves. Plus, she's hilarious.

Your h is Not a special unicorn. This is round 2, and there's a new baby here and yet, he's being - how he's being.

So Even if he woke up, slapped his forehead and said "OMG I want back in!"

you'd need months or years to work it out. (And that might still happen!)

But It cannot happen for a long time, if ever.

So, Dig into your deep wells of resilience. Your sons need you. You need you.

((( )))

Wow. I missed some things!

T, you may have addressed this and I missed it, but did you reveal to H that you know about OW?

I'll have to look into that 25. Thank you.

I'm really not thinking about the future because it overwhelms me right now.

Train- H said in the conversation there's nobody else. I said you can look at me and tell me you haven't been around town with another woman or been talking to someone. He said nope. I Just said I'm not stupid H and didn't say anything else.

He told me that he only left because he couldn't be with me because of how I think of him as a liar and a cheater and that's how I really think of him.

He said I was calling him every day calling him a liar and a cheater. I didn't respond. Because I know that's so far from the truth.

I didn't want to get into the OW conversation besides just saying I am not dumb and leaving it there. I didn't even want to have that conversation to begin with.

If I see them out or get more evidence then I may change that.

Originally Posted By: T384

I'll have to look into that 25. Thank you.

I'm really not thinking about the future because it overwhelms me right now.

Understood. Truly. All you "need" to do is deal with today/this week. My new mantra about things I cannot handle right now is, "that's for future 25 to worry about..."

The site I mention is a help - Just knowing others are in your boat, who happen to be witty.

Train- H said in the conversation there's nobody else. I said you can look at me and tell me you haven't been around town with another woman or been talking to someone. He said nope. I Just said I'm not stupid H and didn't say anything else.

I don't get this.^^ On one hand, you out and out ask him a question you know will not result in an admission.

And I thought you said you had proof. If so, what's with not telling him, and stopping the nonsense?

Why even ask him? What would his admitting "yes there IS an OW" do for you? And what are his continued denials doing?

If you have no solid proof, AND you also know he wants out of the marriage, I'm not clear on what difference it all makes now.

Especially since it's what he harps about all the time.

He told me that he only left because he couldn't be with me because of how I think of him as a liar and a cheater and that's how I really think of him.

yawn...is Ground Hog Day over yet?

He said I was calling him every day calling him a liar and a cheater. I didn't respond. Because I know that's so far from the truth.

I didn't want to get into the OW conversation besides but you did - and I'm not arguing about it.

I'm just confused by your insistence on discussing it or thinking about it now, with or without evidence. Please explain to me why it matters now.

This man is out the door. He is AWOL. He also lies, which you know for a fact.

I'm so sorry to be dense on this but What specifically are you fishing for?

-
If I see them out or get more evidence then I may change that.

to what end?

T3

this is what you wrote earlier

So I have confirmation of H and OW. It's the boss daughter. H said he was working today = lie. He is out with her on his motorcycle.

I also checked the phone bill after this and he was texting while in our home this weekend.

So yes he's not committed to our M or making strides, but the last we talked

he just needed space so he could figure out why he feels this way and that we would figure things out.

Him taking space didn't mean it was a bad thing he just needed some time to himself.

SO THEN a few days ago he said he wants out, is done, and is already moved out with some "visitation" and wants his family fix whenever he might later on...

T3, check out the ... site NOT b/c I'm harping on you for being a chump, but b/c you are too mired in the minutia right now to see straight. Not to mention you are exhausted.

Step back. Plan the next week/month or 90 days,

as if h is a possible, but unreliable babysitter whom you may be able to use, along with more reliable ones.

And take back your life.

Now that you've let that cat out of the bag, my personal opinion is that it changes things. You have to be a lot stronger, a lot firmer and a lot more consistent with boundary setting and enforcement.

I really enjoy how ...articulates herself. It's quite entertaining. She says mostly all of the things you wonderful people here have already told me over and over again.

I'm in a difficult/weird place. H still came here last night. I wasn't home. Didn't tell him of plans or anything. We don't typically hear from him all day. Last night he text me around 7 to tell me he had 30 more minutes before he would 'head my way' I responded 'no need to come by tonight, the boys aren't home right now anyway'. He never responded. He ended up going to my house around 830. He text me around 930 asking if the boys and I had dinner or if he should get something. I just said 'yes we've eaten' and didn't talk after that. I didn't come home with the kids until 1am ... we were st a friends house about an hour and. A half away from home. I came in showered the boys and put everyone to sleep. H came in to say goodnight to me and that was it. He left this morning to take the boys to get their haircut. Asked if I wanted to come I declined the invitation.

So legally as per the L I met with I cannot stop him from coming here. I can change the locks but he can change them right back. Even if he doesn't financially contribute this is still his house. So I've told him not to. One. He still does. Do I just keep saying no need for you to be here?

Side note : my dad and H are super close like I'm sure I've mentioned a million times. Throughout this entire process my dad hasn't said 2 words to H about what's going on. He said it wasn't worth it and wouldn't make a difference and I agreed. Well I guess my dad and H had an hour long conversation here last night. Well not a conversation. It was more my dad just getting everything off his chest. He said he feels better having laid it all out for H last night. He said H didn't say much besides yes okay and that there wasn't someone else. My dad basically just told him he was given the gift of a lifetime to come back into our lives. The grass isn't greener it's mowed differently. That he may be happy now and for a few years but that he will regret his decision for the rest of his life. He will forever change his relationship with his boys and that the happiness of this new life he thinks he's creating will fade. He told H not to come back last.time that he would do it again. Basically just a ton of stuff. He said he knows it doesn't make a difference but just wanted him to know all this family stuff is stopping. No more boat trips fishing trips with my family no more dinners hanging out watching sports. He said I love you H but I love my daughter more and my loyalty and our families loyalty is to her and the boys. We cannot support you in walking out on her a second time. You think my relationship with her mom is how you two will be ? You are very wrong. You are walking out on your family a second time with annewborn. All of these relationships will come to an end. You think everything g is going to be okay and life will continue on the way it was you just won't be married. You are very wrong about that. All the things we have done all the family outings we have done are because SHe has asked us all to include you for the sake of her family. Just remember that. He said he was very nice but very to the point of you are about to see what you're life is going to be like. The last few weeks are no clue of what it's going to be like that's not reality.

I know it does nothing I know family shouldn't get involved. I didn't ask my dad to do this. He is a big part of our family and he and my H are or we're pretty much best friends. I know he's not in. A place to absorb anything but I know it was important for my dad to get his feelings out. If it causes more harm so be it.

So I need to figure out how to enforce these boundaries. I'm going to take the boys out for the day after they get home from haircuts. I won't invite H but if he tries to come?? Just say I don't think that's a good idea? I suck at this. Last time it was easier because he was never around and never wanted to spend time with the kids if I was there

{quote]I'm going to take the boys out for the day after they get home from haircuts. I won't invite H but if he tries to come?? Just say I don't think that's a good idea? I suck at this.[/quote]

You know this. Calm, cool, and collected boundary setting.

"No thank you. Have a great afternoon."

or

"I don't think that's a good idea."

or

"We talked about this already. You made a choice and things will change as a result of that choice. We'll see you soon. Bye."

Your dad laid everything out beautifully. What he said is exactly what it should look like.

How do you enforce these boundaries? Well, you set up a parenting schedule you both can agree on. he has his time with the boys and you have yours. And it's not at his whim. Present him with a schedule that works for you and offer him to make adjustments where needed. This will let him really know what life is going to be like. No more family time with you, the kids and your dad. Just him and the kids in his allotted time. Having to arrange work and OW to see his kids properly and care for them on his own.

It is the reality of divorce. he needs a taste of it.

Out of curiosity, when this happened the first time, why did your dad feel he was going to do it again?

Thanks ladies. He didn't ask to come. He asked S9 where we were going and S9 asked if he wanted to come but he declined.

Ginger- my dad said that because he saidvleopards don't change their spots. He said things would be great and then life responsibilities and reality would set in and H would always be tempted by the easier option. H told him he se again. He learned the grass wasn't greener and he would spend his life making it up to us.

T3

glad you got something out of ... Yes it's similar to what we hear here, except it's a lot of very witty 2 x 4's.

I'm fine with your dad's comments as long as you realize it'll change nothing.
Your h has been down this road before. He gambled before, and almost lost the most important things in life, a loyal partner, loving children, a home and future...

and he's throwing it away b/c something INSIDE him which you cannot fix, is still broken.

He wants someone else to fix him, which is ultimately impossible. Since you "failed" - -which annoys him greatly - and which he resents - he needs another person to make him feel good about himself, but will not admit this...

At some point the new R will also end (OR he will stay & be miserable in the new R, just to avoid having to admit blowing up your family for nothing. That's some karma).

Sure, I like to think years from now your h will recall your dad's words. Maybe at divided holiday times or when he's single again or when he sees you with your new man in a r in which you are treated well, without emotionally sucktacular games played,

OR he can pull the MIA 'dad' who misses out on 90% of the efforts of raising kids, but who shows up at public reward times (i.e. public achievements & celebrations) , to play the role of a loving involved "father".

Good news! These ^^ are problems for future T3 to cope with. Not today's T3.

TODAY my question is, what is the purpose or role of said "boundaries"? You have already said he comes and goes as he pleases. You seem to be saying you have no power/options.

What's your L say about your rights and options?

What is your goal?

Hi 25 - my dad and I both know it won't change anything. My dad just wanted to get some of it off his chest because he's so heavily involved in our lives.

So my goal - well I am here because I don't want a D... I don't say to save my M because I don't want THIS man. He is broken. I want the man I committed myself to, the man I married, the man he's been since we R.

My goal is for my boys to grow up in an intact family.

I am fearful ... scared... anxious... really really feel like this IS it... that because this is the second time. There is NO coming back for him. His actions are speaking so loud.

I feel everything I do just pushes him further away. I was gone with the boys all day. He was out looking st houses while we were gone (he doesn't know I know that). He came home and I had the boys getting in the car as he pulled up. I offered for them to stay home with their dad for the night. He said no they can go with you they'll have more fun. I didn't acknowledge. He said see ya later T and closed the door and we left for the night. We're going to stay at my moms tonight I've tried to make myself very scarce around him. We've probably exchanged 20 words in the last week if that.

Like I said L said I cannot force him to not come here ... he can come and go as he pleases. Also IF I have asked him to stay the night to help with the baby (like I did last month) it defeats the purpose of now asking him not to stay.

My dad said the same.... yes he's not really helping here but he is coming here like I asked. However we had agreed it would only be 2 days a week on mondays and Wednesday evenings. It's now turned into almost every night UNLESS he has other plans. I don't take it as a positive sign he's staying more. He doesn't even keep a toothbrush here or wash his clothes here.

We don't communicate about anything there's no discussions of plans he just comes and goes. I never know if he's coming here or not. The last two nights he did text me he was on his way but prior to that he would just show up.

This is and isn't similar to last time. The main difference is last time he wouldn't be in the house if I was here. So if it plays out like last time he will stop giving me money if I piss him off. I can't afford that right now.

So my dad said I just need to eat the [censored] sandwich I'm being given and just let him come here and let him keep paying everything. So that's why I've made myself scarce. Didn't go home til 1 last night and saw him maybe 5 minutes total today. Tomorrow I'm taking the boys on the boat so we will be gone all day and don't be home til late. Then he will be at work all week so I won't have to worry about anything until next weekend. S9 has a soccer tournament. This will be our first time around all the parents since H left. I'm a little anxious about how this is going to go because I'm not sure if I should let him drive with us. It's out of town and would be nice to have his help with the tent and coolers but I know the other dads would help me. Not sure what I'll do

I'm just catching up on the latest. I agree 100% with the things your dad told your H. Will you support what your dad said, by not allowing your H to join in the family's activities? By "family activities", I mean anything that involves you and the boys, or you and your relatives. He has to see that he doesn't get the best of both worlds. From this point forward, "family activities" will mean him and the boys without you and/or your relatives. That's how it works when divorce hits a family unit. Like most waywards, he clings to a fantasy of what he thinks it will be like in the future. He'll leave his new love interest just long enough to run over to your house and play family? Not if you are the smart woman I believe you are! As someone pointed out........now that he knows you are aware of the OW, it changes everything. Speaking as a former wayward spouse, I don't know how to stress the importance of this enough.

Among one of the first hurdles you'll face along these lines, will be if/when one of the kids invite him to join whatever plans you've made. Knowing the state you've been in for a while, I see it confusing you about the best way to handle it. You need to talk to the boys and tell them not to be asking daddy to join in the activities that you (or your side of the family) plan, don't ask him to stay for dinner, or to spend the night.......or anything. Tell them that you will not be attending the activities that daddy plans to do with them. Maybe some of these ladies can share how to have the talk......but you cannot allow your wayward H to partake in your family (which includes you with the boys, and/or your relatives) activities. I so relate to the things your father said to WH. I hope you will support your father's words, and not get all confused about where you need to draw the line on WH and your family activities. He failed to read the memo of how things change when he drops his current W and exchanges for another model.

Although some may think this sounds punitive, that's not it at all. (Although not intended, who cares if he feels as if he's being punished?) You have nearly lost your mind, worrying over what he may think and feel. We are talking reality of divorce, here! I have witnessed some wonderful couples who divorced and maintained a friendly (but detached) connection. Even in those cases, they did not share boating trips, or a Saturday afternoon "as a family". The only time they showed up for the same event were weddings, funerals, graduations, hospital emergencies, and maybe sports. Even then...... they stayed on their side of the street, if you know what I mean. There were no shared holidays, traditions, birthday parties,, etc. Each parent had their own party with their side of the family for the kids. No more shared vacations or weekend outings. That's crazy. Things like adultery, divorce, and remarriages end these things being shared like the family unit they once were,

(Sorry, sweetheart, I'm truly not trying to see how harsh I can be). I know your heart is broken. I also know you have been vulnerable for several months. You are far from being stupid, you are just vulnerable).

WH doesn't get to cherry pick the parts he wants.......and show up for the fun stuff and playing "One Big Happy Family with the W and Kids". He has made his choice, and it had nothing to do with what's best for the kids. How dare him! It had everything to do with what he wanted. I don't know how you stopped yourself from slapping his face. (Loved your response, btw). Anyway, you've already tried that "family activity" route with him, and he came and went whenever "he" wanted......and still ended badly. Well, the law may say he can come and go where the house is concerned......but I bet it doesn't say you have to let him tag along for whatever you have planned for the boys away from the house, or whatever event your relatives have. Listen, he will try to make you feel guilty about the kids, b/c that's how waywards operate. Please, don't succumb to him trying to make you believe you can, or should, continue acting like a family and doing things together with the kids. It is only his selfishness talking. The audacity! He deserves the rude awakening that lays in store for him. Not only that, but he needs the rude awakening. He doesn't want it.....but he needs it. There may be just a little window of time for him to get a tiny preview of the new life he's bought by sacrificing this family. Indeed, he thinks he will get to continue doing just like he's done since you were first aware something was up with him. And I am not saying this to get your hopes up. I am saying this for your own good (God, I sound like a mother!) and it will be for his own good, b/c he is messed up! Wasn't it the daughter of his boss (or similar) the first time? That's just too creepy, and if I was your mother, I would be saying just what I written.

You may not realize it, but I gave him more slack than just about anyone I remember on the board. You wanted the M to work so badly, and when one thing failed I would come back with "okay, then try such & such to see if you get better results". I hoped upon hope he would come to his senses. As an older lady once told my heartbroken daughter, "Honey, when they have a new pu$$y, they have no common sense".

Please.....PLEASE.....follow what your father laid out to your wayward H.

what she said^^^^

and for the record, I have also been far slacker here with your h & situation b/c you were pregnant.

You got a sh1t sandwich, I know.

But IF - IF you can rebuild your m...you need to let THIS marriage go.

Your h wants out. You do not have the option of "making it work."

Enforce and live what your dad said or you'll lose whatever emotional leverage you may have.

Do you both really think there's no hope?

This weekend I've already enforced the boundaries of no shared time. The main boundary is him still staying the night at the house. He's just using it as a hotel and isn't really spending time there. He doesn't come home from work til 8-9pm and usually sees the kids for 30 mins to an hour then goes on the couch watches TV and goes to bed. We don't talk. Is that okay if that's the situation and there's little to no interaction and he's paying the bills? If I push him to go more he will push to get his own place and won't pay for everything as he is... I cannot afford for him to not pay so that's where my concern comes from.

Just wondering if I let the staying over go if I just don't make myself available to him or partake in family time.

Originally Posted By: T384

Do you both really think there's no hope?

I think the only way your h will wake up and really truly deeply change, is by believing he has lost you and the family you have created. I don't think its easy to act as if, the 2nd time around. So it has to really happen...and see what happens down the road maybe.

I do not think it's likely, but it's possible and there is always hope.

I also believe you are harming your chances of this happening down the road, by delving into the minutia of what he's going to do if you say X or if you do Ym and the repeated spinning that is happening.

He said he is done, repeatedly, but throws you a vague "needs space/time" bone now & then. But his behavior mostly comports with being out the door & he spends time with an OW & lies about it.

This weekend I've already enforced the boundaries of no shared time. The main boundary is him still staying the night at the house. He's just using it as a hotel and isn't really spending time there.

What is the boundary?? He can come if he wants?

He doesn't come home from work til 8-9pm and usually sees the kids for 30 mins to an hour then goes on the couch watches TV and goes to bed. We don't talk.
Is that okay if that's the situation and there's little to no interaction

I don't see anything here^^ that helps you much. Or costs him anything since he's getting the time HE wants. And it makes you tense, which is 100% normal.

cannot afford for him to not pay so that's where my concern comes from.

what would you get from him in CS and some temporary or permanent alimony? How on earth is he buying a house AND does that hurt you once he has a mortgage?
I'd do some serious budget analysis to see how much better off you are with this arrangement which, btw, will likely change to your detriment when things with OW get more demanding...

he will have free time to spend money on - vacation, dinners, new things for his place
etc. Sorry but you need to get into self preservation mode, not save the m mode.

Saving the marriage only comes from ending THIS one. I don't know another way to say it and I'm very sorry to say it at all.

Just wondering if I let the staying over go if I just don't make myself available to him or partake in family time.

is that^^ really what you are wondering? This^^ to me is minutia. You are doing something I very much recognize....working so hard to believe what you want to believe and not seeing what is relatively clear.

YES we know he changed and yes we know he said/did things recently that are at odds with today's reality. That's a sh1t sandwich and it is a clusterf$%k for you and I'm so very sorry.

Your h says (often) that he is done and for the most part, he acts like it.

Frankly, as I said before, I'd treat him as a semi reliable baby sitter for the kids and that's it.

No "happy family" time of course. No asking him questions and guilting him which is not effective. It's just not.

Back off and be a woman only a fool would leave. Get happier, get out of the rut and I know this might be the hardest time of your life to have to get out of a rut. (This is sort of primary rut making time with a newborn.)

But that's what is real. And you have your dad nearby and whoever else to lean on...

it's smart to rely on the people you can rely on...

We know you want your boys in an intact family but you do not have one. If you were in a country requiring you to flee a revolutionary force,

would you continue saying "BUT I want to remain in what was once a peaceful land", and "I do not want this", or would you get yourself and your boys out of there?

From Sandi's post to you, which you need to take in & believe - even though you don't want it.

You may not realize it, but I gave him more slack than just about anyone I remember on the board. You wanted the M to work so badly, and when one thing failed I would come back with "okay, then try such & such to see if you get better results". I hoped upon hope he would come to his senses. As an older lady once told my heartbroken daughter, "Honey, when they have a new pu$$y, they have no common sense".

Please.....PLEASE.....follow what your father laid out to your wayward H.

I am 100% with sandi and 25.

You've listed one fear after another for reasons you can't drop the rope. Your H has you on such a short leash.

T, let me tell you this:

I was a SAHM with ZERO income when my H left me .... both times. Both times, my H cut off our funding. The first time, he served my children and me with the equivalent of eviction papers.

I simply cannot get behind you when you say you can't set boundaries because your H will stop paying bills. Some things - like your dignity - are far more important. And PS you have a supportive family.

For the record, the second time my H cheated, I knew full-well (because of our experience the first time) that he would cut all support except a tiny amount to show the courts his "good faith effort." At that time, I didn't have a job and had four children dependent on me. But I still told H to leave the house that he, alone, paid for, and I promptly changed the locks.

I had supportive family (who couldn't afford to house my kids and me), and I knew there was a women's/children's shelter nearby if it ever came to that.

What are YOUR priorities?

I'm assuming you need to start a new thread

as for the interaction, when he says he's working tomorrow, say nothing. Just get off the phone if you think a trail of lies is starting.

At some point SOON, I hope, you can say you don't want to hear it/don't have time to hear it", etc, and then quickly but calmly get off the phone.

These^^ are small interactions that are of no real consequence imo, unless they make YOU feel better b/c you are saving seconds of your life not listening to a liar. I mean, I get that.

But as for asking if you should say this/that,

or how to handle a 2 minute conversation that is really supposed to be about if/when he comes to visit the boys, I'm bummed b/c

that is just sucking you back into the "trying to save m" vortex, which is not helping you save anything at the moment.

Originally Posted By: T384

My priorities are my boys first and foremost.

Finishing school ... i cannot afford to work much this last semester. I'll be working once a week which is enough for grocery money essentially.

My parents want me to leave it be with him so he will continue paying so I can get through school. My dad said he who laughs last laughs the longest. He said he knows I have this [censored] sandwich but that. I need to keep the peace to continue getting money from H. He wants me to just get a L and file and get the money sorted out that way.

so your dad wants you to suck it up AND OR to file for D and sort out the money later?

Are you aware of the finances? Account numbers and insurance (that insane mortgage application he made for himself??) b/c THAT would be my priority b/c it's your money AND your son's.

IF I could go back in time a year, AND had known what was coming, I'd have gotten my sh1t together and copied all the info, figured out the finances (taken half of the community assets then)

and I would be in a MUCH better place now emotionally and financially and professionally - AND those are linked.

Financial security is part of the whole healing process here. The better it is, the more energy we have for making forward movement in other areas.

Don't just assume your h is the better financial alternative to taking back your life and getting a fair settlement. I would assume he's not.

The problem is Florida [censored] for divorce. I wish I lived in NC of a state that wasn't a no fault state like we are here. It will take a minimum of 90-120 days to get in front of the magistrate to get temporary funds if he stops paying.

Well - You live In Florida. Wishing you did not live where you live, is really not getting you anywhere.

I don't KNOW what you'll get from filing sooner/later. I strongly believe he is hiding money and making plans that do not include giving you a lot of money down the road. How far down the road, who knows? My h is an MD who pretends he retired and can only send me 12% of his income, which he denies earning. AND I have a court order for 10 times more...

but I am still in the dark about a lot of account info b/c I was hospitalized when h was making plans for the tundra adventure. YOU are not in a hospital and you are awake.
You are an empowered woman who is afraid of acting on that power.

I know that the sooner you act, the sooner you get in front of a magistrate. AND I hope having a newborn baby & 2 older sons gets you in front a bit sooner. ((Whether the numbers add up is for a Florida lawyer to tell you.))

But waiting it all out means You are putting your financial future in your h's hands AND in your ability to detach from him. That has not been successful yet. And that is why I'm hard pressed to say wait it out.

I could see doing that temporarily in other situations, but this one is making you nuts and probably affecting your health.

...

I know I have a LOT of thinking to do. This week is my last week in internal medicine and my last day of the semester is the 26th. Then I'm off til the third week of August. I know I have big changes that need to. Be made.

So I just say to him again H you staying the night here isn't working for me? Email the schedule and that be it?

I don't know the answer to this^^ b/c I don't know your goal.

If you need help with the boys, and you think your h can give you help - then take the help. If he's not reliable, then don't bother.

It is 100% about what helps YOU do your work for school and helps with the boys. It would have nothing to do with my attitude towards him or the "it's over" marriage at this point.

You have a full plate. You're a mama and a grown woman in training for her profession.

So if you spend any energy analyzing your interactions with this indecisive dishonest navel gazing boy/man, then it's not helping YOU - or your sons and

you are the only people I care about at this point.

H got on the phone with me after he said goodnight to the boys. Telliing me about his day and what he did. I ended the conversation first. He said he was working tomorrow. My response was 'I'm sure you are H.' He then started to go into detail about it and I said I had to go and got off the phone.

this ^^ is minutia and more blah blah blah from him. You're too busy living in real life for that.

T3,

My two best friends are divorce lawyers, one in Florida and one in Texas. They both told me to get the settlement done with him as soon as he left. Both said he would be the most generous then when he was happy about his new life and thinking everything was wonderful. My lawyer was very slow in drafting the separation contract and by the time it was done, my H had already broken up with OW1. At that point, he wanted to string me along in case he didn't have anyone. Now he is on OW2 and starting to turn the screws on me. Any remorse or regret is long gone. Now he just wants as much money as he can have for his new life.

I know it feels safer to play nice and take the kibbles he throws your way, but long term he likely won't get nicer. The thing I still have going for me is that mine fears me. The MC we briefly saw told me out of his presence that when I set a hard boundary he tends to follow it. I would say that has been the case.

I wish I had been more like Rain and moved swiftly and surely at the beginning. Not so much in an effort to have him back because I now fully appreciate that I don't want him, but just for my own self-worth and to have secured what I am sure would have been a more beneficial agreement.

I just fear when he has that mortgage and the OW to splurge on and the more distant he becomes from you and the kids, the less what little conscience he has is likely to bother him.

what OWN said.

Please learn from our experience

b/c then at least we will know we lessened the sucktacular aspects of this garbage for someone else...

I don't just say this to console you, but I am positive you AND your sons are going to have more joy and peace without this self indulgent man/boy in your life.

I am not positive of what your man/boy will feel, ever.

It's your side of the equation you control.

Yes, I believe *this* MR is done. I'm sorry, TO. I think you need to let it go and stop trying to save what you once had, b/c it's not there anymore. We can't make someone love us! So, grieve or mourn the loss, but don't let it possess you. You have been like a crazy LBW who is desperately trying to control what he thinks and what he does.......and you must let go of the control handle. Number one, you really weren't controlling anything, and number two, it was turning you into someone unattractive. Do not do that to yourself. Set yourself free. As I've told you in the past, I did not see my own contol issues, until it was pointed out to me. It's tough, but you can train yourself to let it go. It's very freeing, actually.

IMHO, the best way to approach any decision or connection with your H is by using the "Dropping the Rope" method. Sometimes, the person here gets overwhelmed by so many DB terms......b/c that person is having to deal with so much under very stressful conditions.

Dropping the Rope is like a ship that carries these other DB terms that have been mentioned, like Detaching, Going Dark, acting as if, etc. To me, it is easier to relieve your brain from trying to think, "Oh, I need to detach more", or "Maybe I should have stayed dark"......or "Was I acting too cold, or friendly neighbor?" Why don't we just drop all that stuff for now, b/c DTR ship will carry all of those things without fragmenting your brain.

This is nothing new, and I have previously talked to you about it. If you are in agreement, then it gives us a starting point and an objective. Right now, start schooling yourself to think like an individual......instead of 1/2 of a non-functional couple. You are not half of anything. You are one whole, independent, free, person. Your personal life does not include H (or ex-H, if it helps to think that way). Your objective is to drop your emotional ties to his life, and stop trying to control him and the outcome of this situation, You have become an emotional prisoner to what he may think of you, and/or what he does. This method of DTR will set you free. I am not telling you that you must stop loving him, but I am saying that, for now, do not dwell on your feelings for him......and try only to think of him as the father of your children. Much like he expressed his feelings for you. Let me emphasize that thinking of him as their father......does not include what you think he should be doing for the kids. That's his job to do with his kids. You have your own. At the moment, he wants to combine those jobs and play family in front of the kids.......but that's a big NO! He does his thing. You do your thing.

We've talked about faking it, well, your actions and feelings may seem unreal in the beginning......however, it's like reinventing yourself, or taking on a new role. You are in training, taking it day by day. The time is coming when it will be second nature for you.

Currently, you want to stop H from staying overnight. My suggestion is for you to act as if he is not there as your H or to help with boys.......b/c it messes with your mindset. Don't call/text to see what the plan is. You have a plan, and until there is a child schedule set..........go about your daily life as if he will never show his face again. If he comes or doesn't come.......who cares! If you need help with the kids, ask someone.......but don't ask him, and don't snoop to see what he's doing and why he's not there to help with the kids......and don't tell him they want to see him. Plan as if he won't come.......unless he should have the common decency to contact you in time to adjust your plans. But you don't contact him for anything, unless it is an emergency. Your problem, TO, is that it bugs you to no end that it's his responsibility to help parent these children.......and you should not have to ask for help. I get it. But look what this thinking is doing to YOU! Honey, you cannot force him to be a good parent. You have your hands full just being a good mom, and you have to let go of that rope you have around him......yanking him and trying to force him to do what is right. Drop the rope. Let it land where ever it falls. Don't look back at him to see what he's doing or how he reacts to the rope that is gone.

Should he just pop in and take the baby while you study, it's no big deal. He doesn't get a medal. He is lucky to get a "thanks" for taking the baby out of your arms while you study........b/c he is a parent, after all. The law says he can be there, so okay, he gets no special treatment. He certainly is not a guest. He is not a neighbor. You don't have to make small talk. You don't have to play nice. You don't have to do anything but be you. Great, huh? Just think about all that stress falling away, when you can just be TO again......and don't have to worry about walking on eggshells. You aren't trying to impress him. You sure aren't trying to "win" him. So, relax. Let it go.

You don't need to sweat the small stuff, like, "Should I be nice, say hi or goodnight, thanks for your help, etc". Yes, you can speak when he arrives. If it's handy to say bye, that's fine. Just don't make it a big deal. If the kids are in bed, and he's watching tv when you are ready to retire......you don't have to search for him to say goodnight. Why bother? B/c it is good manners? (Really? I hear this stuff from LBS's and wonder......he's having an affair and breaking up the M, and you are worried about showing good manners when the kids aren't watching? This is the kind of stuff that messes with LBS's head. Well.........hopefully, you get my point and nobody will misunderstand what I mean, too badly, b/c this post it too long to expound on this particular subject). And btw, he doesn't get to sleep with you when he stays overnight. . (If it were me, the bedroom door would probably be locked, just to make sure). No discussion necessary.

.

DTR means you don't analyze his every move or spoken word.......b/c you don't have the time, the energy, or concern. If you do the action of not being concerned, the feeling will catch up. You are in your home, and you'll do whatever the heck you feel like doing......and if he doesn't like it......who cares? Not you! And, since things have shifted into a whole new gear......when he comes to spend time with the boys (and should he decide to stay over).....you are not required to leave your home and stay out till 1:00 or 2:00 in the morning, trying to show him how you are GAL. Now understand what I am saying here. If you are having real fun while out with friends, or whatever.......that's great. Enjoy yourself every chance you get. Just don't stay out late trying to show him you are GAL. At this point, you aren't concerned what he thinks, and therefore, you are not trying to show HIM anything. Get it? This is a little different than you were originally told. That's b/c we are starting with a clean slate, and you are dropping all your stuff that you were doing to draw him back. Now, you will do all your stuff for mainly four people, your boys and you....and what he thinks about you and what you do, is not your concern. You are dropping that end of the rope......b/c, dang, that thing was heavy!

What do you do when he calls the kids and then wants to talk to you about his day? Same as when he texts you. Use absolutely as few words as possible. On the phone, say uh-huh or grunt a few times and then tell him you've got to go. After all, who does he think you are? His buddy?

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