25yearsmlc 10 yrs later I File D (part 4)

Divorcebusting.com

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2743446#Post2743446

Just thought I'd start a new thread so Job doesn't have to tell me.

The topics covered in part 3 ranged a lot. Huge perspective shifts within me, like 2 steps forward, 1 step back and 2 sideways...

Of course still NO contact from h (which is his MO and for now it's what I prefer. But after 35 years of marriage to have had ONE brief conversation with h, is bordering on the insane. Talk about a fast replacement...)

Re D19, h cut her off for anymore college tuition (which is less/different than how we treated our older kids), and just a lousy thing to do.

Says "your mom (me, 25) can help pay HER share for your college with the spousal support I pay" --

WHICH HE IS NOT PAYING AT ALL & WHICH H IS FIGHTING IN COURT....

Weirdly, He wrote her (in an actual letter dated a month earlier) that her "being on your own so soon in life will end up being a good experience in independence"

for her and he listed his contributions to her like health insurance (sorry, but is paying for our kids medical insurance when they are 19, something we have to applaud & admire, now??)

then h wrote "Call anytime. Love, Dad"....

To ME, that's^^ an insane, self serving letter

or is it cruel? I cannot tell anymore with h. The fb posts with him and the "love of his life" are so offensive to me that I had to step back and say "wait, it might NOT be cruel so much as crazy AND cruel..."

Because what person with a gene for empathy, would not know in advance that's a lousy thing to post?

MOST IMPORTANTLY - what difference does it make? MLC or Narcissist or a lousy guy I didn't recognize earlier, or I'm co-dependent or I was too complacent and or my own fears of being alone, -

I was committed to h and to my m, and i was loyal. But clearly I made mistakes or I would not be here now.

all that matters is his behavior $ucks. It's not acceptable. I don't want it. I don't like this man, and I certainly don't love him.

He has a dark, ugly side that is at present, running his show.

More R-cap

H, (the MD), continues to pretend he is "retired" and thus argues he is not willing or able to comply with the court orders from late January. Thus no support...nice...

He's been seen recently at office functions which is not what retired folks do, but unless I ask that person to sign an affidavit saying she saw him there AND that it somehow proves he's still working, I'm not sure what to do there. Saying "hire a PI" sounds good but I need income. I have already borrowed from my sister, God bless her.

H lost in court but he's winning in real life...what a terrible process we have.

DATING

I swing back & Forth on dating, and I worry about my kids as they say on one hand,
"mom of course you don't 'need' a man"

But they ask me often about whether I'm dating. I do think they want the best for me and in a way , "on paper" H is winning this stupid contest feeling situation. More later...

. D19 is openly gay and looks sort of Peter Pan like. At a political rally near Mother's Day, she was assaulted and then defended herself, and she and the idiot were both arrested (probably to keep both crowds calm, in fairness to the police)> all of this is on film.

Then The idiot failed to show up in court so there's a warrant for his arrest AND he has other warrants out of his arrest for similar charges. This is what this guy does. He's twice my kids' size and he's 29...rumor has it that he is PAID to target, provoke and harass and then attack, people like my d19. Nice.

But until we have a chance to show the DA these pics and film, I'm going to have to hire a L up there. Might be 2-3 more steps. I AM A Lawyer (from another state & have not practiced in decades)

After seeing the procedures in D19's state, (college town) my being an out state AND out of practice lawyer will NOT help me be the hero and rescue her. Believe me, I wish.

So it'll just cost more money. And no h has not been told. Politically, and personally I guess, d19 sees the attacker as "just another man" who hurt her. H has politics different from d19 but in fairness, h would not want our kids hurt obviously But it Makes me sad.

AND I'm so angry at the injustice of this AND for our children and so baffled

and I need to learn how to live with this anger -don't want that- or process it or lessen it or let it go OR something! it's exhausting. I mean it, I notice a day or two after I'm FURIOUS, I'm really tired...

My health issues remain - The meds I'm on for another year do have side effects. Sorry...

However it also kills me to know that if I had had a stroke last fall when I was sooooo sick, where would h be? Where would I be??

He did not have my back and folks, I mean, I was in the ICU and he practically fled. "Monitored the situation" from the other coast... The one time I truly was vulnerable - HOW on earth can he live with himself? How can he compartmentalize THAT???

These^^^ are the questions I struggle with,

AND asking these questions, is among the stupidest wastes of time in my life.

there are NO "good" answers, nothing will fix my feelings about his cad like behavior. In my fog, his indifference or supreme selfishness was both repellent and clarifying.

Issue number 1 - am I protecting myself legally and financially as best I can?

NO I HAVE NOT...

Have I gotten my kid legal help OR financial help with college?

No I have not.

Have I processed my pain and begun to heal? Well, it has started. I'm awake now, that's for sure.

So I guess I have my work cut out for me

and sometimes just writing it out helps.

Thanks for listening...

((( )))

25, you are constantly trying to "ground" me and make sure I am keeping perspective so I will offer you something here: I, too, struggle with this idea of "losing". Not that I am "losing" my W and feel like I need to "win" her back or to "win" some sort of possession contest with the OM, but what the system and the divorce process is very likely to end up meaning for me if, as seems the odds-on likely (though not yet certain) outcome, my W and I should split. I foresee a sitch where I, as the primary breadwinner, end up paying spousal support for her (I make a little more than 3x annually what she does, though her salary is a major boost to us that really helps us keep our head above water what with all our med bills) as well as giving up, I believe, half of my retirement pension. Coupled with the added expense of living apart, this will mean my dreams of retirement in four years when kids finish college are pretty much kaput and that I will likely work until, idunno, somewhere around 70, all the while (potentially) financing her and her A with the OM (who has a fairly inconsequential income and is not doubt salivating at the prospect of dating a woman who will be able to tap into my support and benefit payments). Doubt he would be stupid enough to marry her under those circumstances. All the while my dreams of a happy, carefree retirement off doing fun things with my beautiful wife after all those gruelling years of raising two special-needs children will die a cruel death.

And its not like, in the big scheme of things, the money means that much to me. I would of course give it all up and live in a box if she would come back and live there with me. It will just be added salt in the wound to have to cut that check every month, bleeding me dry while supporting her and the deadbeat OM who would be (presumably) sleeping with the woman I love. Ouch. Some system.

25, your story saddens me every time I hear it. What a douche. Something that might make you feel better, though, is that a friend of my W's had a similar situation... he started a business but it was in OW's name, and he "had no income". Paid no alimony or child support for almost 15 years. My friend pursued him relentlessly, through three countries, numerous PI's, finding accounts in the Caymans, records showing his employment, etc. After her daughter graduated from college, she was able to prove he was a deadbeat dad and failed to comply with numerous court orders even though he was financially able. He wound up paying her about $1.5M and served a few months in jail for contempt.

What are you doing to pay the bills in the meantime? I assume you are polishing the law degree and starting to work as a lawyer again. I hope so. I've found that I need to "think less and do more", and going back to work will probably be a good distraction, as well as a good way to meet people in your new city.

And Hoosjim, I feel for you. All my hopes and dreams for the future... gone in a puff of smoke.... I think we all pretty much feel that way.

Hoos,,
Anyhow, I'd rather be the higher earner than the lower, trust me there. Not to mention I earned a law degree & had school debt and a career. But we moved 9 times for h's career, versus 0 moves for my career.

H's resume is pristine; mine's less than the resume of a new law school grad, b/c they'd at least be young and starting out...but if I spiral anymore in this vein, I'll wallow.

Anyhow, You can put a no cohabitation clause in your Decree if it comes to it and YOU can remarry someone who earns more than the OM does, obviously. So While your w would lose some alimony by remarrying, chances are you'd gain income a) if she remarries and b) if you marry someone working outside the home.

Don't discount that^^.

Also Are your kids special needs? If so, who will watch your sons when it's her time to hang out? How inconvenient for her. How Unfun....

My complaint about the system is that I won a fair amount of TEMPORARY support in the court (and am struggling with some health issues I never had before)

and h fought even that...and it has cost us both a lot already. But after the court again gave me "round 2", h Claims he quit a high 6 figure job to avoid paying me...unbelievable.

Talk about cutting his nose off. AND No I do not believe he retired. There are ways to hide income when you want to buy into a practice.

Which makes him a horrible person and even if he did retire, you mean to say you'd quit the GREATEST JOB EVER, to avoid temporarily paying me 1/4 of it?

Who does that? I cannot decide which is worse, lying about income or actually refusing it to punish me...

The "System" is that even though there's a court order in place, so what?

As long as he can hide wages all i can do is HOPE to get my half of the retirement BUT I am not old enough to use it for 2 more years- I only hope he has not grabbed it and squandered it on OW or God knows where...

h is not a good investor, btw. I invested our savings years ago and thanks to the choices I made (which bored h, but at least he gave me free rein on those monies, as opposed to the financial secrets he kept)

"Dear H, The wealth we do have is not thanks to your GOLD RUSH Alaskan income...

You're welcome,
25"

Wow, sorry to hear about your D 25. That's ridiculous...in regards to both the political rally and trying to get help from H to pay for college. Hope both of these things work out in the end for you.

Quote:

The fb posts with him and the "love of his life" are so offensive to me that I had to step back and say "wait, it might NOT be cruel so much as crazy AND cruel..."

Just out of curiosity, is there a reason why you are seeing his posts? Are you searching for them or have you just not "un-followed" him at this point and they still pop up in your feed? I'm dealing with the same, so eventually I had to block her and the OM. There is no reason why I need to see those things and I don't think you do either.

There are a lot of things to vent about, sorry... Are there any positives?

Jim

that does (mostly) make me feel better. In the justice sense. In the marital sense I am perhaps always (??) going to wonder who h became.

H must have had some seething hidden resentments that festered into things I literally don't think happened at all or are so wildly distorted it's ALMOST laughable.

Plus the resentments tend to support their self serving narratives so that somehow, h is angry at ME.

That is rich with irony.

But a year ago he snapped about something and I recall wondering why HE would do that b/c in that moment, he had just done something irresponsible and had in some way let me down. I don't recall it much but it was something that objectively speaking meant he had dropped the ball in some way and it hurt my feelings. I know at the time I had not complained or b1tched b/c I recall being a little proud of how well I had handled the hurt...

So When he snapped at me a few minutes later I said "whoah, h, why are you mad at me?"

Honest to God h said, "because you are mad at me".

To which I replied, "h, first off, I'm not 'mad'. I'm upset, but rather than lashing out, why don't you just ask me what's upsetting, and we can explore that, rather than escalating this way?"

H looked at me as if it was the first time this idea had crossed his mind. Like we had never ever communicated normally in our lives...

SIDENOTE-- people, we were happily married for years and years and would NEVER have had this type of ^^ goofy immature exchange our first 25 years.

Something in him changed or he began to lie or feel shame, which always always converted into blame.

and yet...what difference does it all make now?

Originally Posted By: Bdog37

Wow, sorry to hear about your D 25. That's ridiculous...in regards to both the political rally and trying to get help from H to pay for college. Hope both of these things work out in the end for you.

Quote:

The fb posts with him and the "love of his life" are so offensive to me that I had to step back and say "wait, it might NOT be cruel so much as crazy AND cruel..."

Uh, I blocked h long ago, and never once looked at h's posts nor did I stalk OW (or know about OW till recently).

Unless it helps legally, I'm not interested in knowing of h & OW's life. For the most part I can say that the people who told me about OW and h's posts, had my interests at heart.

In hindsight however, I think If I had known of OW earlier, I would have reacted differently, legally. And Moved emotionally faster too, I suppose.

Here on this thread, I was merely venting.

I lost my mom 18 months ago, last child went off to college, I moved again (for h's job in CA )

then 7 months ago I was thrown a curve ball health care problem, H went to Alaska & cut me off financially, which I did NOT expect and which I was poorly prepared for as I was just released from the ICU of a neuro ward from which 40% of the patients never leave,

I filed for divorce, moved cross country with the help of my family, h fights every cent of the D and even money he's suggested he'd pay, he has not. He replaced our whole family quite publicly and frankly, it's been a damn rough year. And this is not my first round of DBing but it will be my last.

But yes, Of course there are positives. (But For half an hour I just wanted to whine. Besides, it can help organize oneself).

Anyhow, I am a free woman with electricity and food and shelter, I am smart, I make myself and loved ones laugh b/c I'm damn funny, I am surrounded by people who love me. I am making a full medical recovery. I will find meaningful work, i will travel again, my children are kind, smart people who are also hilarious. And healthy. We are close. Someday I will live near them again.

I like living alone (no offense to my dog, who lives with me and really should count) I love my neighborhood as I am basically an urban hipster now. In time if I want, I know I will have romantic love in my life again.

This ordeal I am in, is also something I will learn to embrace b/c what choice is there?

The truth however is that I'm in a $h1tstorm at the moment. No "gold plating the grit", as Brene Brown says.

I'm resolute b/c I was put in an impossible situation and did what I must.

I'm at peace b/c I know I am loved and not alone.

I have faith that I'll find my rudder & direction, b/c I'm f---ing resilient.

PS

My h sent me an intimate text message meant for OW. Just weeks after we separated.

Guess they "fell in love" fast...

25-that's an old narcissist trick. The "mistaken" email. Quoting a part here from a list of favorite narcissistic hoovers:

Text messages that are supposedly meant for someone else, but sent to you by mistake: �See you in ten minutes xoxo� (Supposedly for his current girlfriend�sent to upset you.) �The boss just moved the meeting to Wednesday at 3pm.� (Supposedly for his coworker�sent so you feel a sense of obligation for the coworker.) Or, �Sam called and said John is in the hospital and to call him immediately.� (Supposedly sent to someone else, but sent to you so you feel a sense of urgency to get back to him.)

yeah it's always possible, but I don't think so. Own, I mean i hear you

But it was too early in the process, no one knew of OW, and we were not in court, so h was trying to play nice. Calling me about house things and texting about other matters, and 5 minutes earlier i had asked him a medical question and he had sent me an insurance answer. IN fact at first, I thought it was meant for me - we had only just separated and him missing me would have been "typical" of him to send mixed signals. To this day I'm not 100% positive it was meant for OW but I'm 95%...

And h has a history of messing up texts with his friends, brother and children, about minor things.

If i were to get another one - I'd have to call him out on it. What a fool.

ps

it was a text, not an email. And we were exchanging texts on other matters, but if it had been an email, good grief, I'd keep it.

Hey 25,

I agree, this is a great place to vent and journal. Sorry, it sounds like you got a lot on your plate right now.

I just went through the FB thing with my STBEW and it wasn't easy to see so that is why I was just curious. Crazy how they can just flaunt their new love to the world like that without any care on how it will effect the LBS.

I have also recently lost my father, best friend, and my M so I know how hard things can get. Just keep thinking that when you are down so far there is only one way to go...and that is up.

Hey 25, voice from the past here! I poked around to see if I could find some familiar names and yours was the first that caught my eye :-) Very sorry to hear the ugly turn things took with H. Sounds like his MLC or whatever it is is still in full control. I hope you're doing OK and using your wealth of strength to hold things together! I wish you the best!

Originally Posted By: AnotherStander

Where have you been hiding?

Originally Posted By: Cadet

Where have you been hiding?

Here, there EVERYWHERE

Man where does the time go, doesn't seem like I was gone that long but it's been like 2 years!

Hey 25yearsmlc:

Can you help? I just posted a question on my thread. Can you give me your insights.

25,

Just checked in here after probably more than a year away (other than a brief visit when J3B passed), and I was really sorry to see this thread. I haven't caught up yet, but I'll try to if I have the time but mostly I just wanted to pass along something I was never very good at: ((((hugs))))

You've done a ton of good here, and you deserve a better outcome.

Starsky/Puppy/Choc

Thanks Starsky. It's a blow, for sure. I am trying hard to Not spend time on why or how h can do this b/c I don't think it'll get me anywhere. And in 2006 I journaled somewhere here, that if the Alaska obsession arose again or if there was an OW, I'd walk away and not look back. But that statement is very hard to live by.

And it hurts to be 57 and have this happen when you think you're past it. You think you'll be rewarded for your loyalty.

I got really sick in October, and H was not there for me. To ME, that is the biggest betrayal of my life. I am still incredulous h would go off to Alaska, when I most needed him. In fact, it might be the only time I was "needy" in my life.

I'm not sure how someone can inflict so much pain on the 4 people who loved him the most, and emerge unscathed. I feel as if h will be haunted, but who knows? Maybe I am only trying to console myself.

Maybe he can keep very busy on the tundra with his OW now. No need to see the wreckage. He posts on FB about meeting the love of his life and introducing his "honey" to his family, (which does not include our kids, but his dad & brother...

Our kids are unhappy with him, to say the least.

But they are supportive to me and urged me to file, and too many other red flags were waving at me anyhow. And they are close to each other, thank God. No matter what age kids are, they are affected.

You know what I really have to do?

Take my own damn advice from the past decade.

Bdog I will check your thread soon

I posted this to someone else and decided it could use repeating (if only for me).

"Conflict avoided is really Conflict delayed...and delayed conflicts rarely go away. They tend to fester & metastasize."

This ^^ is such an important lesson for me, (and of course for h, but he's not here.)

Now that I find the GDC (Gross Div Crap) almost paralyzing b/c every bank account or bill feels like a slap in my face

or triggers another review of the past -- I realize I'm really just avoiding the difficult work. Which is partly how I got here...

It's the part of this I might be able to change.

I want the focus to be on MY choices, but I'll digress for a minute to mention how much of an epiphany this was for me.

About 3 years ago, h's dad (my FIL) chewed H out for a financial mistake & he did it while my kids and I were there, and which was really none of FIL's business, to be honest. But h was silently furious.

Obviously it was inappropriate for FIL to comment - 1) at all and or 2) in front of our children

but what fascinated me is that h was visibly angry and so...he went for a run right then. Yes, he literally RAN AWAY, for maybe a 5-6 hour run.

Later after he returned, nothing was said to or by his dad.

But h muttered to me that his dad was "not one to talk about financial obligations. He screwed my mother so badly in their divorce!"

Point being, my kids saw their dad in a very uncomfortable position with his own dad. H could have told his father to table the discussion or could have gone into a different room with him or just said he disagreed. Or hashed it out, I guess.

But instead, h ran...and to my knowledge h has never told his own father how deeply he resents him for being so unfair to h's mother, in their divorce of decades ago.

There are remarkable parallels now, in h's behavior and his own father's.

So much for conflict avoidance.

Quote:

There are remarkable parallels now, in h's behavior and his own father's.

Yeah, it's spooky how they repeat the dysfunctional patterns from their own childhood. My ex left our marriage when our kids were just about exactly the same ages as ex and his sibs were when their mom left. Even though just a couple of years earlier he had taken pride in convincing a friend of his t stay in his marriage. It's some crazy subconscious stuff that goes one.

(At first I accidentally typed "sunconscious" - I like that word! I want to be "sunconsious"!)

KML

I have 3 kids and I swear, hand to God, if any one of them pulled some crap like this on their families, 10-30 - 50? years from now, I'd fly/drive or wheelchair on out there and be doing some 'splainin'.

The cycle breaks when we stop it from continuing.

Yeah, I was disappointed that my ex's family didn't come to my defense when he left. Not surprised about my ex FIL, as he and I didn't have a close bond, but one of ex's sisters and I were very close, and I didn't hear squat from her after he left.

I understand - blood is thicker than water, and it's not like their intervention could have changed anything at that point. Plus who knows what BS my ex fed them to justify their actions. Yet it's disappointing, especially that in a pretty Catholic family like theirs, no one seemed to speak up.

I had the same experience with XH's family as you did KML. They are transatlantic, so I guess we wouldn't have done much visiting in any case - but I feel so hurt to be cast aside from them in my hour of need. We used to go on holiday with them and I (thought I) had good relationships with them, particularly his parents.

It took a while to process that one, but in truth I don't think about it much nowadays. They didn't prove to be 'true' friends to me and I really don't have much time for them now even if they chose to get in touch again.. It is a shame when that happens though.

Xx

25yearlsmlc - once again I'm humbled by your insights. If you get a chance can you swing by my thread? I'm honored by your contribution.

Just wanted to share a horrible true story from Sunday. A man in my Divorce Care support group stabbed/murdered his wife and then took his own life, on Sunday.

The group is hosted by a nearby church. We meet weekly for 13 weeks, at nominal costs. (It's a VERY helpful resource).

This group of 14 happened to be about half men. I've been blessed to hear some really loving men talk about missing their kids, & wanting their marriages to work, etc.

"R" is one such man, and he had 2 kids, including a severely disabled son. R did not want the divorce, wanted to reconcile and he talked a lot about missing time with his kids.

On Sunday, R dropped his kids off at his xw's house, (not sure if/when the D was final)

R seemed to be in a good mood, waving to the neighbors who have known him for years. The witness neighbor said R "seemed happy." While his kids remained in the yard, his d9 chatting with the neighbor, R carried the equipment into the house.

Within a span of 9 minutes in total, R stabbed his ExW, ran out of the house, drove to his own place, and took his own life with his gun. EX w died on the outer ramp of her home.

I would never have predicted that this man would do such a thing.

(I believe there was no premeditation for several reasons, but that is beyond the scope of this post.)

I don't know what made R snap, and maybe I never will.

But I'm stunned. He was like a DB guy big time, he did not want the divorce. He tried to save his m.

He loved his kids, but Now they are orphans.

I know he's the bad guy in this. I know what he did was horrific and indefensible.

And I think he will only be known for the last hour of his life.

But he was not a monster before then. I liked him. He seemed to be among the least angry in the group.

The group meets tonight (needless to say) & some grief counselor will be there too.

How on earth can we try to spot this type of behavior before it happens OR is that possible? Maybe R did not harbor these thoughts before hand.

Obviously R needed more than we were giving in the group, or was it really only a 10 minute break, with 2 horrific acts of rage/grief/desperation? ?

He came to the group every week, and when he was out of town for work, he literally face timed into the meeting, so he could hear and see everyone.

IF you had told me that someone in the group would do this, R would have been the last (male) I'd have believed capable of this.

Not sure what I'm expecting from this post, but maybe insights or things to watch out for or whatever.

If I'm right and R did not plan this & if this was as sudden as it seems to have been, what trigger could exist that would lead to this terrible violence??

What do we look for??

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I would never have predicted that this man would do such a thing.

Before BD and my subsequent trip into depression and anxiety, stories like this shocked me. But afterwards, they don't surprise me at all. When I was deep in the grip of depression I was not myself. My mind went to really dark places, I couldn't function at work or at home, I felt completely dead and empty inside, like a walking hollow shell. I don't recall ever having thoughts of taking my W's life but certainly I remember that I not only thought of killing myself, but I came up with several plans for it and even convinced myself it was the best course of action for me, my W and my kids. Thank the Lord I had the presence of mind to seek out medical help. After I was on the road to recovery I could scarcely believe I had become that strange, bizarre, empty shell of a person that actually thought death sounded like a rational choice. I still can't believe it.

I think the medical field has a long, long way to go in figuring out what kind of chemical changes happen to us after life-changing events like a BD. It affects people very deeply, many of us truly do become mentally ill. It's beyond something that a little counseling will fix, we often need medication to get us back on track. But mental illness is a taboo subject, it's seen in a different light than physical illness. In my mind they are both the same, the person is sick and needs medical attention to get well again. I hope that some day people can discuss mental illness as a malady, without feeling shame or embarrassment that they are going through it or went through it. Until we get to that point we're going to continue hearing these horribly tragic stories about normal people that inexplicably "lose it".

I hear you AS and thanks for replying. Killing his wife (or himself) was totally at odds with his religious beliefs too. This particular group is hosted by a church. No "doctrine" is preached but we do pray and I recall R leading a prayer himself. So I do think it was mental illness that was underneath whatever ability he had to function at work.

So I guess it's not about what we could have done for him, but that something in him was holding onto the ledge by a thread...and whatever happened in that house in that 2 minute time period, pushed him off the ledge.

Or maybe he was steaming inside all the while, and faking outside. I don't know. I know he didn't bring the gun with him to kill her and he had just been with the kids, but he owned one (he killed himself with it minutes later).

I felt like I was at my maxed out stress after d19 got arrested/assaulted AND H cut off her college in the same week.

But I never felt like I'd kill someone or myself. More like I'd flee to a place far away...

the few times I thought of offing myself, which were brief, I always remembered that my kids and siblings and friends would feel really crappy. Forever ruined.

And I'd be the "loser" in this whole big weird ordeal. I don't want to be that. I want to be the winner

or A winner (not saying there can only be one).

ugh...

I'm sad that R will be vilified as being an evil monster. I already saw people blaming guns AND OR that "men kill wives b/c they think the women belong to them"...

but as you say & as I believe, it was mental illness. Severe depression for at least a year since his BD (might have been 2 years, can't recall at the moment).

There is no record of domestic violence and no police calls to his home. I felt that he came across as articulate and calm.

The last 2 meetings he did not initiate any discussion or use his turn to speak. He replied to other's comments or questions, and he made an effort to be at every meeting, even if from afar.

I saw his fewer words as meaning nothing big had changed in his situation or that he was more at peace with it.

Wrong again.

Oh 25, what a tragic, sad story! I too, believe the stress brought on by BD, especially when it's sprung on us with no real warning signs, can be catastrophic. I think the acute sadness and loneliness can be overwhelming. I'm so sad for the children. Lose, lose, all the way around.

I also know your tendency to shoulder others' heartbreak, so be careful not to immerse yourself in the "what we could have done" too deeply. Those types of meetings lend themselves to quick, strong bonding among the walking wounded, and thank goodness for that- but at the same time, we can never really know what goes on in each heart and mind, what baggage each of us brings to the meeting table, or the depth of struggle that goes on in all of us. I'm sure you were kind to him, and had he shown further signs of needing help, I can easily see you being one to linger behind after the meeting and offer to help him find answers, or at least more help.

(((((25)))))))

thanks Leahsue

I must be mindful of not being a rescuer -and a tendency to deflect from my own struggles by diving into others, as well. It's not a trait i want to keep outside of a structured rubric. (I could be a counselor IF I KNEW that I'd turn the clock off at 6, which I guess I'd know, b/c I'd learn it or not practice as a counselor.)

I admire & am implementing better boundaries for sure

It's something I'm watching for.

At the group there's another guy - "S"- there who seemed about to break. In his divorce there will be a 3 day TRIAL- lovely.

So we were trying to prop him up, not R...

sigh

years ago, here, a WAW took her own life and her h blamed himself for awhile.

In hindsight I don't think his WAW was in a MLC at all; she had undiagnosed mental illness. I recall her getting the diagnosis and within 2 months, ending her life.

this crap is very unhealthy for us. and on that note, I will take steps tonight AND this week for self care.

We cannot affect our spouse and we cannot go back in time & we cannot "wait" for the future we hoped for, to happen. (Or call that "Standing")

I have to be here now

((( )))

That is such a sad story - a sad end to a marriage and two lives - and forever changing those of the children too. It must be traumatic for your group to have been so close to that situation. Dealing with loss - the loss of the love of your partner, of your marriage, of a way of life, of security, of dreams - is incredibly difficult...and occasionally people just don't manage to make it through that process.

I once interviewed someone for a job. He didn't get the job and we sensed he was having a tough time. I tried to link with him supportively and offer our kindest face. Weeks later, I heard that he had stabbed a family member to death. I was much less close to his situation than you and your group, but I was affected by what happened too. Sometimes we just don't know all that is happening for someone and it is a reminder of our own vulnerability too..

I hope you'll contine with the group and support each other through this difficult time.

Take care xxx

25,

Super sad story. We'll never know of course but let me dissent and say maybe not mental illness. After b d, I never thought of hurting my w but I thought a lot about running away or killing myself which is just another form of escape. On the outside, no one knew this. I did well at work, upheld all of my social responsibilities with family and friends...yet inside, I was in the darkest place I'd ever been. I could not sleep. When I couldn't take it anymore, I finally told a friend and that was the road to self recovery for me, but it was very dark for about three months.

Same for me..
I had suspicion of ex-h planning to kill me. I knew for a fact he wanted to hurt me. In the mist of the crazyness, i saw running away or killing myself would solve everything.. i have ran.. i drove for 30 minutes and emotionally crashed.. i had to stop the car and scream, cry, pray.this was it.. decision time!!!
Realisation time!!
This was the solution???? NO! And why?
The impact of my choice onto my children.
My love for them and their need of me became my force.. i drove back home.drained but with a reason to live!

25--

That is certainly a shocking story indeed. In the early part of my career I worked legal aid. We only took divorces if there was violence in the prior 90 days. Needless to say I saw a number of violent situations and women in absolute terror.

I think a lot of this stuff is just about control. Some people need it so badly they will go to any length to get it. I see my own STBX and how much he likes to control me. I just had a R talk with him to push the ball forward and during that conversation I told him I was moving away from here and he spent a good 10 minutes telling me where I should move in the city I am planning to go to.

Wow, 25 - how horrible.

Doesn't sound like any of you could have picked up the signs. Doesn't sound at all premeditated. Perhaps when he went into the house he just became suddenly enraged; perhaps he was abusive in the past and you all didn't know it.

Or - perhaps she taunted him and he just snapped; then, horrified at what he had done, went home and killed himself.

No way of knowing. But a good lesson to discuss in the group the importance of getting treatment for depression symptoms, and to keep the focus more on GAL and moving forward, rather than ruminating on the loss.

Originally Posted By: Gordie

Gordie, please don't be offended, but this^^ description sounds like severe depression for which you sought help. How is that not mental illness?

(I don't mean insanity, just despair and depression. A "very dark place".

Clearly R was in a dark place for sure. No question.

FWIW, there was no planning in this. (This was explored at length tonight).

So he snapped and then had a few minutes to drive 1/2 a mile to his place, get a gun and take his own life.

I wouldn't say that was sufficient time to recover from a damn traumatic event of an unplanned attack, or whatever state he was in, but I suspect he began to realize the enormity of what he'd done and couldn't face it.

Here is one take away from the support group, to focus more on ...

We all have to remember that no matter how dark a place we find ourselves, no matter the levels of loss, there is hope.

Things really do get better.

Either R could not see Hope anymore, or something threw him so off balance...

His ex was going to buy a house with her boyfriend. From what I understand the bf was not an OM, but a guy she began dating after the Div.

I'm sure that hurt R, & he realized a recon was not likely, and financial problems were present, and his disabled son was increasingly hard to manage - while R was also trying to bond with his d9 - and so on...

No violence before this, but R had admitted he had anger issues he wanted to work on.

As bad as that^^ now sounds, (as his anger issue clearly had an epic fail)-
the point is that he saw it, he admitted it and he was trying...

Look, I know I'm defending the bad guy in this. It's weird, I know.

R did a terrible horrific thing that will have generational ramifications. And now he's gone forever, and so is the mother of his children.

I'm still really quite a bit stunned.

Guys, As of Saturday, R was a good man helping others. He quietly but specifically cheered and encouraged all of us in the group. Little pep talks with insight.

He was also just a middle aged guy struggling to face enormous loss due in part to his own demons, which he owned up to. He seemed to be doing everything he could to improve as a man and father.

I wonder if it was just in that minute...OR if he had lost all hope...??

Sometimes it's really hard to feel in our hearts, what we know in our heads.

The sun will eventually rise, even if the night seems endless & without stars.

Not to lose hope, but to hold it tightly, especially when you're under fire.

thanks for listening

Own

R was not a control freak. Not a narcissist or any such thing. He was the LBSer.

Nor was he a "woe is me type". For instance, He never mentioned the level of disability his son had until he learned that eventually it would kill his son. He was very sad about that. At the barbecue I was very moved, b/c the son (who is the twin brother of R"s d9) requires a lot of work to just keep alive. And R was incredibly attentive.

There's some cognizance in his son, but it had to have been terribly draining on R. Facing that without a partner would be daunting for anyone. Plus his d9 wanted daddy time, which is cute but demanding... and then mommy was busy GAL with her bf,
( for which I do not blame her).

I'm Not sure what all the money issues were but R had invited his sister to move in with him at his rental house ===

I'm sorry. I don't mean to defend him by explaining his life's issues.

Just saying that until that day, no, he was not a jerk. It's odd to see the other side of someone before they make an irrevocable choice.

It's like the group is only allowed to feel contempt for him but we don't.

We are incredibly disappointed & horrified. And we also feel grief for his family AND for him. We said a lot of prayers for his children tonight, first prayer and the last. (And for him and for his x w).

I feel shame that we don't just hate him, like we have to be quiet about secretly missing him. The newspapers barely mention him, and there's a gofundme for his w's funeral and for their kids, which I totally understand. I have no idea who will care for their disabled son and I think R would never ever have done this with any forethought. No way.

And R's death is tragic too. He was not a one dimensional man.

OMG, I guess his sister has to pay for his funeral...God, what a cluster---k.

Originally Posted By: kml

Wow, 25 - how horrible.

Doesn't sound like any of you could have picked up the signs.

Now that I've talked to the others, I agree. I wanted The group leader to know that this should not cast a shadow on the organization's value. It's really useful. (Imagine if DB had people right there physically present (and able to go for drinks after a meeting)

and hang out on weekends so that GAL is easier and with those who really do get it.

The group leader said that she was reflecting on whether Hope was stressed enough b/c we do tend to focus on getting thru the gritty details and I think that's totally valid to examine.

[b]Doesn't sound at all premeditated.

True- and no one thinks he planned this. Several reasons for that belief but i don't think I want to get into the forensics aspect here. Maybe later or elsewhere.

So, full agreement no premeditation.

And probably nothing we could have seen?? He was wound tightly though, wouldn't you say?

Perhaps when he went into the house he just became suddenly enraged; perhaps he was abusive in the past and you all didn't know it.

Or - perhaps she taunted him and he just snapped; then, horrified at what he had done, went home and killed himself.[/b]

^^^all possibilities.
I'm just shaking my head, literally I just did.

No way of knowing. But a good lesson to discuss in the group the importance of getting treatment for depression symptoms, and to keep the focus more on GAL and moving forward, rather than ruminating on the loss.

Amen sister. Last Friday I had lunch with my friend who lost her son in the fall (undiagnosed cardiac myopathy).

She mentioned how she could not see living everyday the next 40 years, missing her son this way, and she broke down.

All I could say was "but maybe everyday won't be like THIS day"....

there's some moral to this anecdote I can't quite express at the moment.

25yearsmlc:

What an awful thing that has happened in your community.I hope that this terrible incident will not impact the ability of Divorce Care to serve those who are suffering a marital crisis.

I'll pray for all of those who will now need to keep living after this tragedy.

Okay well,

As sad/horrifying as that all was, I'm redirecting my focus onto my own path. Not saying I won't continue to ponder and muddle about R's behavior and such,

but I know I have a tendency to deflect from my own path when tragedy strikes another.

And as "empathetic" as that can be (and often is), it's also a way to avoid my own pain.

Dealing with d19's legal problem and spoke to a good sounding defense attorney. Oh guess what? He's NOT free...and I really truly do not have the money to pay him, at this moment. Not sure if I will, either.

D19 has some savings but dear God I hate using that. And yes, I searched for pro bono lawyers but of course she/we do not qualify.

*** Financial note for All** Fafsa for college is due this month (didn't know I'd be doing that this year...)

And I went to a seminar for divorce's financial aspects, called "Second Saturday" - ironically held on a Sunday. It's not just for women but it was aimed at those who are the lower income earners in a divorce. Mostly women.

It costs $25 and had a Div L, a therapist and a CPA/Financial Planner. VERY USEFUL info

I used to teach an intro to personal finance about investing. Well, there was a lot of info uniquely suited to divorcees (401k's have different tax consequences in divorce than I knew of, and IRAs are not treated the same in a divorce---wacky news to me)

Point of all this was ^^ to pass on the college reminder and to recommend that we all get a financial planner to review our settlement agreements as our lawyers are usually NOT trained in that.

This is the biggest financial transaction of our lives and should be treated as such.

I had a dream of h last night and in it, he was at some gathering and we were still together. But when I approached him from the side to see his reaction (guess I was suspicious in the dream), and he was visibly NOT happy to see me. Ouch.

In the dream at least, it meant that I could see the lack of love he had for me right then.

Gee, nothing symbolic there!

The fear of him being indifferent to me now is palpable. It's hard to believe due to the time together and all that he meant to me. All that our m meant to me but also, I cede the fear of leaving was stronger in me than I care to admit.

Whatever love he MAY feel, is a lot easier to block out when you have a new R and no reminders as you are in your "paradise adventure land". Yes, sure, I know this in my head.

But I have to face 2 things. H is not loving towards me no matter what he may feel or when he may feel it. And he may really have talked himself out of love b/c as we all know, love is always partly a choice. I think Not loving is also partly a choice. Maybe I need to make that choice more strenuously.

Second,my tendency to ruminate has to be cognitively more disciplined. Shorter.

I MUST redirect my time and thoughts away from h and the past, way more and faster.

A few months back I told myself that I had to learn from my mistakes, which is true.

But that cannot mean it's what I mostly think about. And It does not have to mean the lessons learned must happen before moving forward.

For ME, I have to move forward NOW. I cannot remain stuck anymore. This summer (though it's God awful humid back here! I'm reminded of why I prefer drier climates)

And then it'll be autumn and then winter and I have got to have a new life going on.

As I go along and really begin to enjoy at least some aspects of this new life, I can periodically check for a lesson from the past. I don't have to keep looking there. Like my mantra is supposed to be, "don't look back; it's not where you're going."

I must learn to enjoy a lot more about this new life, now.

The GDC will entail much looking back and much regret/fear, so I'm going to try to make that the only part of "backward looking" that I do each day I do it. That is the goal for this summer or till the divorce is final, whichever is longer.

No date on when the divorce might be done,but maybe this summer. Seems really fast to me.

God, it could happen right before our 36th anniversary. Lovely. Guess I won't be spending it in Paris (but I will go to Paris! Trust me on that).

I should plan some type of ritual for the anniversary or that day will bring me DOWN...

(unless I force my focus to be elsewhere??)

That's it for now

25--

Not to keep you away from your focus, but I don't think that WS or narcissists have the inside track on control issues. Although I have not had homicidal thoughts toward my H, I have struggled most in this situation in areas around control. Several times on hearing things he did WITHOUT CONSULTING ME I was either furious or sobbing and screaming uncontrollably. It is sad to me in retrospect how much value I have placed on control.

I don't believe that love ever leads someone to kill. Instead it is that something dark inside of each of us that can be tapped under the right (wrong) circumstances. For example, would I kill someone that I thought will kill, rape, or subject my children to extreme bodily harm? More than likely and I am by no means a violent person. In the DV incidents in which I was involved as a lawyer, I witnessed issues with control, loss of control, and an attempt to establish control.

The fact that he killed himself is entirely understandable and Many of these types do the same thing. It is simply another way to maintain control over the outcome (prison, dealth penalty, suicide).

I completely understand your feelings toward him. This wasn't some statistic. This was a living, breathing person whose pain and suffering you were witness to.

_______________________________________________________________

Now, you've stated a goal to move on from remaining stuck, how do you get unstuck (of course I partly ask this for myself). I made the decision to press for the separation contract knowing it would result in divorce talk. I still spent the next two days sobbing and shaking from the reality that I am closing this book and letting go of those last strands of hope that keep me tethered in a very unhealthy way to this person who has harmed me and my children so much. I have even been obsessing over the fact that he seems to be gathering things for a party (perhaps 4th of July?) when he would never allow me to have people over, have friends for that matter, and certainly never throw a party. Part of me says who cares. The other part is infuriated.

Have you ever read Pema Chodron? I think she is a huge help with "stuckness".

"Let go or be dragged" was my mantra.

I attended a similar group meeting when going through my divorce - I agree wholeheartedly with your advice, it's a huge financial transaction and most divorce lawyers have a flimsy grasp on the tax consequences etc. Wife dot org has some good related financial advice.

Simple things like the tax consequences of receiving alimony versus a lump sum. The necessity of getting a QDRO to split a pension. Lots to consider and definitely worth getting some sound financial planning advice.

AS for daughter's legal issue - lawyers are expensive, but not having one can be more expensive still. You may need to directly ask your H to help with the legal fees - you can hope that he may be ashamed to say no in a voice conversation with you, whereas it's easy to say no to an email.

I had a similar situation - my oldest son, as an indirect consequence of his Asperger's, got caught up in a legal situation with a pretty bad potential outcome. Ex and I each paid half of the initial fee - but when the total bill came due (for the lawyer EX had researched and hired btw as I was out of the country when this first came down) my ex stuck me with the entire remainder, to the tune of an additional $10k. I've never forgiven him for that.

And one of the reasons my ex felt justified in sticking me with that fee? Because he's an idiot and totally didn't understand the tax consequences of alimony, so he thought he was paying me much more than he actually was. He was apparently under the delusion that he was paying me almost 20% of his income in alimony, when, once you calculate his tax deduction for it etc., it was only 11% of his after-tax take-home income. He also probably thought that I got all of that alimony money, instead of having to pay about a third of it in taxes.

Correction - he actually thought somehow he was paying a third of his income in alimony! Again, very bad at math and taxes.

What an incredibly sad story, 25. And I am sure this is extra difficult because this is someone you knew and liked. That has got to be hard to handle. Not many people get to know someone who killed someone on a personal basis.

I remember, because I guess I am kind of warped, when I was a kid I asked myself what would happen if I found out my dad was a murderer? He was my safe place and my friend and I wondered how I would felt if I found out something horrible. Would I still love him? Then I remember I said of course I would, he is my dad! And then I felt guilty about loving him if he was a murderer..... (I know, this sounds nuts. I have always been an overthinker).

My mom was mentally ill. She did take her own life 4 years after my dad left her. She was a mentally ill former addict and spiraled out when he left. She couldn't handle it.

I remember saying I wish my ex would have died rather than have left me. I never though of killing him of course, but I felt his death wouldn't have been a CHOICE to leave me.

I never thought about killing myself after bomb drop because I had a baby. But I had wished I was dead sometimes and I imagined a tractor trailer taking me out on the way to work.

There are life events that are so devastating that just make people snap. So incredibly sad for all involved. Especially those kids.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Killing his wife (or himself) was totally at odds with his religious beliefs too.

Ironically he may have thought that death would be a reuniting of he and his wife -because- of his religious beliefs. He may have thought he was acting out of love, "fixing" the situation. Obviously he wasn't. He more than likely was having some severe internal struggles as you suspect, that clinging to the ledge comment really rings true for what I went through. And he no doubt was not thinking rationally and logically. I think when I was going through that "empty shell" period that no one knew the difference. Outwardly I -think- I was acting normal, but inside things were not at all normal. So don't beat yourself up, I am not surprised you didn't see any warning signs because there probably weren't any. I am very sorry you went through this, you and your friends in the group are yet another casualty of his actions that he probably never considered.

Quote:

years ago, here, a WAW took her own life and her h blamed himself for awhile.

Strangely enough I was thinking about them on my drive to work this morning. For me that is a tragic example of how traumatic things can be for a WAS. On these forums we read pages and pages of LBS's expressing the pain, trauma, fear, etc. that they are going through and shock that their WAS "could do this" to them. What is sadly missing from nearly all posts is concern for the WAS, for what THEY are going through, and how the LBS can help them with their struggle. BD doesn't mean there's a happy WAS and a distraught LBS, it usually means there are two very distressed parties trying to figure out what to do with their lives.

Quote:

In hindsight I don't think his WAW was in a MLC at all; she had undiagnosed mental illness. I recall her getting the diagnosis and within 2 months, ending her life.

Your memory is much better than mine but from what I remember that does sound right. Unfortunately the LBS didn't post much after that, I hope he came through it OK.

Quote:

We cannot affect our spouse and we cannot go back in time & we cannot "wait" for the future we hoped for, to happen.

Nicely said. It's so accurate, and also poetic.

Just went on FB to look at Ralphs photos of his kids and him. (Not worried about using his name now, given the situation).

A bunch of people are cursing at Ralph on his fb page.

ONE person posted a prayer for the kids, and the rest are condemning him. Telling him to burn in hell.

*AS, I don't think Ralph believed he'd be united with his ex in heaven because they'd be dead. That wasn't the plan b/c there was no plan.

I do hope God looks at all of our actions in life. I think Ralph snapped and then was overcome with despair and took his own life. Not insane but also not in his right mind.

His kids meant everything to him and if he thought any of it out, there's no way he'd have done this. He did not think this out. He would not take the primary caregiver away from his kids, especially his disabled son.

But why must people condemn him this way? He has family and friends who are being VERY quiet, understandably.

I just wanted to look at him & his kids again and now i have to see all this "rot in hell you coward!" crap.

Surreal. Painful. What are Ralphs family/ sisters feeling now?

I guess no one is allowed to mourn him publicly.

[quote=Ginger1]What an incredibly sad story, 25. And I am sure this is extra difficult because this is someone you knew and liked. That has got to be hard to handle. Not many people get to know someone who killed someone on a personal basis.

not counting clients, this^^ is true. Certainly the first friend I have had who took a major exit ramp in life. Damn.

I remember, because I guess I am kind of warped, when I was a kid I asked myself what would happen if I found out my dad was a murderer? He was my safe place and my friend and I wondered how I would felt if I found out something horrible. Would I still love him? Then I remember I said of course I would, he is my dad! And then I felt guilty about loving him if he was a murderer..... (I know, this sounds nuts. I have always been an overthinker).

I get it. I have not told anyone in real life other than my sisters that he was in our group or that I went to his house or that I liked him. I told my sister 2 weeks ago that he was "a really devoted dad". SO weird.

My mom was mentally ill. She did take her own life 4 years after my dad left her. She was a mentally ill former addict and spiraled out when he left. She couldn't handle it.

Ginger...wtf? That is some serious ouch.

I remember saying I wish my ex would have died rather than have left me. I never though of killing him of course, but I felt his death wouldn't have been a CHOICE to leave me.

I think a lot of us get that feeling. MY sister was divorced, remarried and then was widowed. I'm positive she preferred widowhood to being rejected.

(Plus you get free food when someone dies...) yes that's called gallows humor.

I never thought about killing myself after bomb drop because I had a baby. But I had wished I was dead sometimes and I imagined a tractor trailer taking me out on the way to work.

There are life events that are so devastating that just make people snap. So incredibly sad for all involved. Especially those kids.

Yes yes...^^

I was wondering if our brains and neuroplasticity can be redirected by chronic stress and hurt, rage, frustration, and then despair.

Would the MRI show changes?

Again, I think we all must stress HOPE in our situations.

Ralph must have felt hopeless after he attacked his xw, and or horrific shame, or more despair...a despair I hope never to know.

I feel in my heart that if he had believed his life was going to be better soon,

maybe none of this would have happened.

Hope really matters.

Hi 25 the signs are not always visible when someone does not suffer from psychosis. We know that 95% of people who commit such crimes are suffering from a mental disorder at the time of the act. We don't know about the other 5%.

We know that one huge red flag for people with depression who were feeling suicidal at some point and become happy. This is concerning. This means they have it all planned out researched have means and a plan. Most clinicians miss this sudden change from total despair to happiness.

Giving away things, writing good bye letters, and in the elderly...cleaning their future resting place are some examples..

Getting divorced is a serious risk to everyone especially if you do not want it. I hear of so many killings during a divorce where domestic violence was never present in the marriage.

I think divorce needs to be further researched in mental health and classified as a form of PTSD or something...

rick

(Hi!)

Yeah, well, I can't say 95% of my violent clients were mentally ill.
I think of armed robbers (and burglars who are surprised there is someone home) & I don't think they are necessarily mentally ill. I suppose rapists are arguable mentally ill but I've never heard them claim mental illness absent some abuse in their childhoods.
Maybe you can refer me to the source if you can recall it.

I'm familiar with the signs of suicide you mention. I just don't think that applies here as no one thinks it was premeditated.
In the opinion of the therapist and pastor & others, Ralph was not suicidal in advance of the event.
He was in our support group, active in his church, he was planning on hosting another event, & he cared deeply about his kids. Ralph said his goal was to improve his r with his ex w and said he wanted to stop being irritable with her. So, no, He did not plan this. He was not suicidal until after he realized what he had done. And in a way that was the appropriate response. If Ralph spent 5 minutes thinking this out, he'd totally avoid this. He would feel complete utter regret.

Belaboring this point isn't really my goal here.

I think I'm just freaked AND I think is something to watch for in others (and ourselves).

As I said earlier, I wish there was research on the brain after long periods of sadness or stress/obsessing, etc. We know there are changes in the behavior (and increased suicide) but I wonder about actual structural or chemical changes. Same for deployed soldiers. Less sleep, poor eating, low or manic energy- the fact that we cannot concentrate as well means something is going on.

Now that I think about it, our obsessing -after awhile, is pretty darn unhealthy &
We can ruminate too long and repetitively.

We tend to focus on the MLC WAS's behavior and forget to check ourselves often enough for our own unhealthy behaviors.

Yes it's absolutely a form of PTSD. In Ralphs case, he also learned that his son was going to die before the age of 20, which he learned a few months ago. Even for an LBSer, he was under tremendous stress and it was ongoing.

His inlaws showed up Sunday and I guess they were "observing" his drop off time.

We will never know what transpired in the <2 minutes between his arrival at the house, and... the rest.

To be clear, there's no defense to what he did. I know that.

But it's alarming & sad & horrifying. His little d8 will never be the same, & seeing her mom, and asking the neighbor to call 911 - OMG I can't even go there. She lost her mom and her dad in the most brutal manner.

So we really need to look out for ourselves, "check in" with ourselves, and we need to be safe with our spouses.

This is not painless for anyone. But it should not be fatal.

Very sad.

This is a heartbreaking story. To see two people that loved each other, married, brought children into this world, and built a family together end with betrayal, abandonment, violence, death, and the daily devastation that will be the future for these children that once had parents...well, it's horrible beyond description.

Was he mentally ill or driven beyond any reasonable breaking point? Was he a villain or a victim? Did his WAW drive him to this or is this all on him?

There is no question that violence and murder cannot be excused. No one but him is accountable for this decision. It is utterly damaging and isn't something that can ever be made right. So I would never excuse his actions or encourage someone else to take responsibility for them.

Yet these questions aren't easy. I don't know if he was 'mentally ill', shoot, I don't even know exactly what that term means or what the difference is. If mentally ill means people acting crazy compared to the rest of us, then yes, anyone that does something crazy fit that description. But I get concerned that label minimizes some of what this man was dealing with. Maybe he wasn't crazy. Maybe it really was simply too much. Did his WAW drive him to this? No one drives someone to what he did. That is a step he took himself. But it would be naive to think that she didn't contribute to the pain he felt that at some point exceeded his ability to cope. You cannot drive someone out of their marital home, limit their access to their children, destroy their family and identity within that family, flaunt another person in their face, and oppress them with an aggressive court system, then label them as 'mentally ill' when they can't go on.

I think to myself, if the divorce rate was 5% instead of 50%, would there be more or less suicide? I'm not booked up on statistics but I would imagine it would be quite a bit less. If that's the case, then at some point don't we all have a responsibility to contribute to a world that is livable?

Then I think of a school shooting with a kid that was being bullied. Of course that's not ok. But do we label the kid as mentally ill and close the case? Or do we take a look at the bullying epidemic and say "We need to put a stop to a culture that inflicts such tremendous pain on so many"?

In so many ways this mirrors our DBing. I never would've left XW. She is ultimately responsible for her choice to end the marriage. Yet it is clear that my behavior during my M had some serious shortcomings, there was real pain inflicted on her as a result of my actions, and right or wrong this is the outcome.

We don't need to beat ourselves up about things in the past. But I do think it's really important that we take responsibility for our behavior, and acknowledge the impact our behavior has on those around us, and the cumulative effect all of our behavior has on the world we have to share.

I am not a model of this behavior and don't claim to be an example. I just know that when I read a story like this it makes me rededicated to being more demanding of myself and more aware of the impact I am making.

I also want to thank all of you that are DBing and standing by your marriages. I am of the belief that divorce isn't the answer, and that it leads to losses deeper than we can measure. Something so destructive should not be socially acceptable. Something so destructive should not be minimized and shrugged off with trite sayings and rationalizations about how it wasn't meant to be. I believe those attitudes minimize the damage that divorce causes, leading to more pain and suffering, which can clearly lead down even darker paths. So stay true to your beliefs, stand by your marriage, and take responsibility for your own destructive behavior. The next person you talk to might be at the end of their rope. We're fighting for more than our marriage here. We're fighting to do our part to make things a little easier for each other so that these situations don't repeat and our children grow up in stable loving homes with both their parents around to see them through.

Hey Zues,

On another hand, I also wonder if the divorce rate was 5% would people be killing themselves because they are in a marriage they are miserable in? It could really go either way. We see how some WAS feel smothered, trapped, neglected, abused, very depressed and if they couldn't get out by divorce, they might get out otherwise. Again, I am probably only an advocate of divorce in 5% of situations, rather than 50%, but this is a reality.

I do think they should do more studies on the effects of divorce/heartbreak. It really can be devastating to many.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

Hi Ginger. Of course that is possible. It's possible that the suicide rate would spike drastically if people were hopelessly trapped in miserable marriages. It's also possible that the net fulfillment in our lives would decrease if we were tethered to stagnant marriages without the freedom to pursue our soul mates.

Because we can never know for sure we have to follow our beliefs at best and educated guesses at worst.

My beliefs are that a marriage and family shouldn't be destroyed and a spouse shouldn't be abandoned because one doesn't feel like they are getting out of it what they expected, desired, or deserved. For me personally that sounds as ghastly as a parent abandoning a child because they don't feel like they are getting as much in return for their sacrifice as they signed up for and they think they could enjoy a single life more. I think the mainstream acceptance of these types of rationalizations has snowballed into the landscape of broken families that we see today. I also believe that true fulfillment in life comes from serving others- God, Spouse, Children, Community, Employer, and putting the focus on appreciation for what you have. I believe that placing personal happiness at the top of the chain and focusing on unmet desires to find fulfillment doesn't work and is the cause of most of our pain and sorrow. And I believe that the rationalizations about why a marriage should be ended are essentially the Devil's tools. Even assuming that the teachings of all religions are completely cast aside and that we consider this scientifically as nothing more than a giant social experiment- at what point would we decide that this isn't working for us very well?

Each of us gets to cast our vote on the culture we create as a society. My views are in the minority these days, and I'm no shining example of what I think everyone should be- but that's ok. I am not shouting down people that feel differently or close minded to the idea that there is something I'm missing. Yet I feel a sense of responsibility to share my beliefs at the appropriate time when the conversation arises the same way I cast my ballet every four years. And when I see the horrible aftermath caused by the wounds we inflict on each other it does make me feel aware of the mistakes I've made and the consequences they've had. We are all human and we must find peace in our imperfect humanity, but that doesn't change the fact that our actions have consequences and we shouldn't strive to do our best. No victim blaming here, people ultimately choose their own road. It's just important that we are vigilant about how we choose ours.

As always I appreciate you playing Devil's advocate (

)

G, I made that last line because I thought it was a cute joke. But even though I think it's funny and I think I made it clear I was joking, it still looks a little snide or dismissive after the fact. I want to make it crystal clear I don't think you're an advocate of divorce or the devil's work. You are having a very important conversation and bringing up very important points, and I know your are a tremendous individual with beliefs very similar to mine in many ways. So thank you for the conversations. Have a wonderful day.

This suicide/murder story is so very sad.

It reminds us of the very strong emotions that swirl around the break-up of long term marriages and how much pain and suffering they cause.

The view that 'these things happen' needs to be challenged. My (adult) children's lives, and mine are forever changed. We are not living in the past, and have all forged good lives, but the past casts a long shadow. And since my xh is still not happy you have to wonder!

Of course I am not advocating that unhappy and dysfunctional marriages should be forced to endure, but the idea that it is normal to divorce after 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years or more of marriage does need questioning.

It is easier to break up a long term marriage than it is to unilaterally dissolve a business relationship in many jurisdictions.

With regard to suicide - I believe (and my work leads me to say this) that just as there is overt and covert depression - one is more evident, the other less easy to spot, there are also 'signs of suicide' and then there are the ones where 'nobody saw this one coming'. This can sometimes be spotted but they are very very good at putting on a good face.

Such a terribly tragic ending and I feel really bad for the kids!

Unfortunately, statistics will show that the suicide rate among men increases significantly with divorce. There are also really alarming numbers in regards to women's death by domestic homicide from their intimate partners (husbands ex-husbands, boyfriends, etc).

Why that is... I can only speculate, but there are many studies that find women are more likely to initiate divorce. Therefore, in most cases, the men are the ones left in shock and most likely didn't want the divorce. (not all situations)

There can also be other factors for the mental instability of male divorcees. Gender bias family court (not entirely proven) could play such a role. Loosing time with your children, carrying a heavy financial burden, and relocated or loosing marital property is all very damaging during the divorce process.

(I am not advocating that only MEN suffer from these things)

Either way I think we would all agree that divorce is very tough. Depression, lack of sleep, poor nutrition, are just some common side effects that goes with it. Probably pretty much everyone on here has experienced some, if not all, of such symptoms.

My heart and prayers go out to those children. I am sure no one will ever know why he did what he did, but again...I feel really bad for the kids.

Quote:

there are many studies that find women are more likely to initiate divorce. Therefore, in most cases, the men are the ones left in shock and most likely didn't want the divorce.

I would not equate the numbers on who FILES for divorce with the numbers on who CAUSED the divorce. My observation from many many years here on the boards is that quite often, the husband who leaves, often in a blaze of MLC, seldom is proactive in moving the divorce process along (because, after all, paperwork is boring when you're out having MLC fun, plus they kinda like to keep the wife waiting at home as a potential Plan B if it doesn't work out, plus it is sometimes financially advantageous to them not to file.) Therefore I've seen many women forced to do the filing even though the divorce was not their idea and not what they necessarily wanted.

Quote:

There can also be other factors for the mental instability of male divorcees.......carrying a heavy financial burden,

Granted, both parties usually lose financially in a divorce because two CAN live more cheaply together than apart. And that financial strain can certainly add to the pain when you're the LBS. But I just want to correct the impression that women somehow make out in a divorce. Many studies show that on average, women's financial state after divorce is far worse than men's financial states after divorce. Men may harbor a lot of resentment about paying things like child support and alimony, but statistically, women's standards of living drop significantly while men's rise. (There are many contributors to this, including the fact that women are often not paid on par with men, women "mommy track" their careers to care for children and home, I see a lot of women here not fight for everything they are entitled to in a divorce in hopes that by being "nice" their spouse will be more likely to come home, etc. etc.). Note, I'm not saying that it NEVER works the other way - and I have seen some men here who definitely got the short end of the financial stick in a divorce - but in general, it's the women that suffer more financially.

I'm glad this is being discussed actually.

Maybe I should have created a different thread for this or maybe we need a "suicide/depression/domestic violence" thread anyhow. (?)

Safe to assume even without psychosis or any other psychiatric problems,

most people here have had trouble sleeping and eating. Most here have energy levels that fluctuate wildly, our concentration is off, we are easily distracted, we can be emotionally fluid or just damn sad. Some of us get panic attacks, heart palpations, or cannot face any tasks associated with this process. And there are assorted other physical and emotional problems.

This^^^ has to affect us[/b] neurologically.

(KML, I'm not a doctor of medicine /- but 'm a doctor of law/play one on tv/am married to one
which are all EXACTLY the same

)

[/b]

I think we can stipulate on this site, that there are too many divorces in our nation.

Ginger to be fair, I fully agree there are a lot of marriages in which as least one of the partners is very unhappy (for whatever reason) So we have to care more about being married.

How many of us know couples in which each spouse would say and mean, their marital r is the most important thing in their lives?

And yes Our legal process makes a lousy situation even worse. And so does the blas� reaction of our society to divorce in general. Lots of questions about why you are divorcing and the expectation is you'll have a one sentence answer. WTF?

Most mediocre marriages will NOT improve with time. The lousy marriages that somehow dramatically improve, tend to require a life altering event and or an internal seismic change in one or both.
If we Imagine a criminal case of equal importance, like having your house burn down and trying to decide the cause of the fire AND if you'd ever get another house, you can see the drama/trauma of divorce in another light.

The PROCESS must be changed. I have ideas and invite others.

Some jurisdictions require counseling for the kids, a few parenting classes too.

I don't think regular "MC" would help much at all, not if they just rehash their past and take out their scorecards to renew their grievances...

**** I wish for time apart or some type of DB like intervention so that when the couples meet face to face, they do not repeat the dynamic that got them in divorce court.

Only time and deep introspection and R reflection can help most couples in these situations. If anything.

How do you get that?

I'm not sure how we could "make" someone who thinks they want out, able to see the long term consequences to others And to themselves...

more on Ralph later

Raising the quality of marriages is an important goal. Maybe it is the only way. And I would LOVE to hear your ideas about how this could be done 25!

Before we get to how though, I have to ask this- Suppose we couldn't improve the quality of marriages, and we simply had the choice of remaining in those marriages or getting divorced. Would divorce then be justified?

Most people that say they believe in marriage and are against divorce put in a small clause that goes "except in the event of abuse or addiction or adultery". The problem is that's too vague and could apply to 100% of spouses. Does someone buy too much on Amazon? Shopoholic! They watch porn? Adultery! They don't want to spend their free time together? Negligent and emotionally abusive! This isn't to say that there aren't some truly horrendous situations that arise that can't be tolerated, but the social movement to speak out against these intolerable situations has given a free pass to anyone that wants out for any reason. Why would you leave your spouse and have an affair? OH, YOU WERE BEING ABUSED AND THIS OTHER PERSON WAS JUST HELPING YOU FIND YOUR STRENGTH TO STAND UP FOR YOURSELF, GOOD FOR YOU!

Personally I believe these mediocre unhappy marriages should NOT be broken up. This if for two reasons.

First, I think that the true benefits of a marriage are way deeper than the superficial reasons that are observable with our five senses. Companionship, sex, going for walks, all great stuff...but even in a bad marriage there are deeper things like purpose, identity, witness to your life, stability, history, and some level of trust that can only be earned through years. Get a divorce and you can chase the walks on the beach and the sex, but you cannot ever replace the deeper and more meaningful offerings of marriage. How do you really trust someone who has been divorced twice? How do you really feel unconditionally needed by someone when they buy into the 'must not need anyone or I'll be forced to live with oppression I'm too good for' mentality and your former spouse already told you to hit the road? How do you replace decades of shared time during the formative years of your life? You simply can't.

Secondly, it doesn't even work. Today's narrative is that if we don't settle and we walk from a 'bad' marriage that we learn, and grow, and heal, and find ourselves. And that while it hurts we weren't 'compatible' and that it was a gift because we both meant well but it just wasn't 'right', and that now we must go look elsewhere because someone will be out there that won't be an addictive abusive cheater that will allow us to build the relationship we've always wanted that we just weren't ready for until we went through this cocoon phase. That's right, our first marriage is just the caterpillar and we are about to become a beautiful Monarch Butterfly! Oh, wait...2nd marriages fail more than firsts, and all we are doing at a macro-level is taking the same group of flawed humans and shuffling them around again and again, only this time with the baggage of broken families and disillusionment and without any of the benefits of shared history or true commitment. How can this possibly be a good strategy?

OK, I understand the idea that if people are willing to walk away from marriages it might force people to grow and be more demanding of themselves with the hope this would marital quality and thereby eventually lower the divorce rate. I'm just not seeing that happen.

In the end I am a believer in the camp that a marriage is forever, and I throw out the exceptions clauses that list pages of deal breakers that can be applied to all situations. Let's stay with our families and accept that we weren't put into this world to be fulfilled by others. Let's suffer together and have some occasional moments where your spouse does something that reminds you they know you better than anyone in the world because they've been with you for 30 years. Those moments trump a new sexual position in my book any day.

Now, if we can improve the quality of marriage as well then I'm all for it. But I'm not going to make my support of marriage conditional upon the stipulation of some future evolution of our ability to relate to each other.

All just my opinions of course. Just like I'm not too worried about it because I think that artificial intelligence is our best bet to work through this. I have less and less faith that we're figuring it out. Hey, AI just beat heads up no limit holdem. How much tougher can relationships be that a 5x pot bet on the river?

I agree Zues, but somehow your post makes me sad today

I got a letter from the life ins policy I've had on H since he was deployed. H canceled it.

Mind you, I pay for it, but h is the "owner". Why on earth would he do this? I cannot tell you how tempted I was to text him to ask what the hell his goal was.

"You literally want to make sure I get less when you die??"

Good grief...and yes I called USAA to make sure there was no mistake and in their notes it says 'COL was informed his w was paying the premiums, but insists on policy cancellation."

I did not contact him but only b/c my sisters talked me off the ledge. Plus (** And I DO RECOMMEND THIS)

then mentally I thought out each scenario and rabbit hole. They're right to have stopped me. It gets me nowhere and would so likely spiral and escalate...never mind.

There is no honorable explanation nor is there any chance h will slap his forehead and say "OMG I had no idea it was a lousy thing to do. I'll reverse that decision now!"

HOURS LATER I get an email from my L saying h wants to buy me out of spousal support. As in maybe settle...

2 thoughts...

first, if the life ins cancellation was a "Strategy" to corner me or pressure me in some way to settle soon, it achieves the exact opposite.

It just infuriates me AND

Second, given that I don't trust him, why on earth would I believe anything he offers?

He ignores court orders. He does things that certainly appear punitive. What's going to be new now?

Oh and his address changed so I guess he's living with OW and "Sharing expenses".

Great...not a great day but it's Friday so there's that.

I think in your situation buying out might not be a bad idea. Given the trust issue, perhaps it could be put in escrow so that you know it will be there when the ink is dry.

^ not a bad idea

Hi - so sorry about the recent tragedy. The shock can affect everyone around the incident, so hugs to you. I wanted to mention from my hard won experience that if you seek a financial advisor and would like that person to give you credibility in what you'll ask for if the case should go to court: a) a judge will give more weight to the opinion of a CPA than a CFP and b) if the advisor suggests their work has been helpful at trial find out how many times they have been an expert witness and to what effect. I ended up using my cfp's recommendation as a negotiating tool with H buy my L had warned me it was going to be pretty weak to the judge. Fortunately I didn't go to trial but it was close. YMMV but that was my experience here in VA.

If he has the money to buy you out I would take it. One of my big regrets is that we did not have the kind of money it would have taken for ex to buy me out instead of alimony - and as a result, he has been resentful over what he was paying me (or what he mistakenly THOUGHT he was paying me) and so stuck me with every other expense for our adult children that he could weasel out of.

I often think that if it had been settled at the time of the divorce, we would be on much friendlier terms now.

So - things to think about in the buyout:

- how long an alimony would you likely qualify for if you went to court, given your ages and length of marriage?
- It was my understanding that at least in my state, alimony could ALWAYS be revisited - that is, if my ex became disabled or was fired or something, he could always go back to court and get the alimony changed. So having a bird in the hand is better than a possibility of future income that may or may not come true.
- He should not have cancelled the insurance, I suspect the court would have something to say about that. In my divorce my ex had to let me maintain insurance on him in case he died before paying me all the alimony he owed. (He did however insist I reduce it from the $500k policy we already owned to a $250k policy - lol, he didn't want me to have an "incentive" to have someone rub him out!!!!!!)
- the buyout should be based on his imputed income and yours, not on his retirement "non-income"
- the buyout is calculated taking taxes into account. So, for instance, let's say alimony was going to be $25k for 10 years. That would have been tax deductible to him, so if he's going to be in a high tax bracket (say his top rate is close to 50% between state and federal), it would only have cost him say $13k/year. You on the other hand have to pay taxes on alimony, so assuming your top combined tax bracket turns out to be 30%, you would possibly only net $17,500 a year. Times ten years that would be $175,000 total BUT they also calculate in the interest you could make investing that lump sum. Assumptions here make a big difference - for instance, assuming that you will put it in a mutual fund and it will make 7% a year is a very very bad assumption. But they will probably want to use something overly optimistic like this. You on the other hand might want to use something very pessimistic, like current bond or CD interest rates which are quite low. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. A quick rough calculation using the Financial Mentor ultimate retirement calculator online (a handy easy tool which lets you change a lot of assumptions - although in this case I'm missing the relatively small amount of taxes you might pay on your investment income) shows that for ten years of alimony at a take home of 17,500, he would need to give you a lump sum of around $171k and change if we assume a 2% interest rate on that investment. If we assume a 7% interest rate, he only needs to pay you $131k. (this assumes that the lump sum he is giving you is marital assets that you do not have to pay taxes on).

Now - if you're in a position to use the money to pay off a mortgage on a home for yourself (that is, you can earn enough income to cover your other expenses until retirement) then you can actually make a guaranteed 4% on that money (or whatever your mortgage interest is.) There are arguments for and against paying off your mortgage this way, depending on your situation.

If you opt for the alimony route instead, then he HAS to allow you to keep an insurance policy on him, and I would fight to make him pay you the difference between the cost of a new policy and the (probably cheaper) cost of the old policy. Also insist on an automatic withdrawal.

Also, bear in mind, if some of the money that he is going to use to buy you out is in a 401k or some such, you will have to pay taxes on it when it comes out, just as you would on the alimony. In that case, you would need $187 k if assuming 7% annual growth of investment, or $244k if assuming a safe 2% growth rate. (If you use 4%, you would need a lump sum of $219k).

Odds are, if he hears the actual figures, he will want to pay you alimony instead as it's a better deal for him (and hope that you drop dead or he truly retires before he's done paying it all). So you will have to consider how much is it worth to you to negotiate, in order to have the bird in the hand.

Before I go into detail on KML/Own's comments -

I suddenly had a horrible thought given Ralph's recent actions.

Since it took some energy for h to call and cancel a policy I bought years ago, and am paying for, even in a greedy crazy mood it simply benefits no one to cancel it,

and only hurts me, and only if he dies...

I'm not saying I believe this, but could h be thinking of making an exit,

or is he just "insuring" that I not benefit from his possible death?

S31 said, and I'm quoting - "Dad's a candidate for suicide, mom... " (I suggested S31 call h's bff or h's brother, which is who s31 selected by saying "Maybe I'll call uncle M"...

so that's a sickening thought.

I THINK I'm mostly believing it's the latter - meaning that he's thinking "Oh, on the off chance I die, no way will evil stbX get a cent. I'll see to that".

but then S31 threw me off with his brutal truth.

I am exhausted from this emotional sick feeling. And I'm very tired of having it

Originally Posted By: kml

If he has the money to buy you out I would take it.

Knowing h, there is no way he'll make a decent offer. He lacks negotiation skills (and it's something I've always managed for us.)

H doesn't want to pay ANY spousal support, just split the pensions and retirement savings. (I cannot access the retirement accounts for 2 years and he earns a lot as an anesthesiologist).

One of my big regrets is that we did not have the kind of money it would have taken for ex to buy me out instead of alimony - and as a result, he has been resentful over what he was paying me (or what he mistakenly THOUGHT he was paying me) and so stuck me with every other expense for our adult children that he could weasel out of.

point taken, KML. God knows I'll hear his crap the rest of my life. Plus I'd like to work and not worry that every time I get a promotion or bonus, h will want to return to court. As conflict avoidant as he is, when it comes to money, suddenly he's all about confrontation.

He's also not able to HEAR what is said. He hears what he fears.

My L said that when the judge ordered "temporary support in the amount of X", that h turned and blurted out that he's "not paying her that for the rest of my life!"

I often think that if it had been settled at the time of the divorce, we would be on much friendlier terms now.

I have thought of that^^^.

So - things to think about in the buyout:

- how long an alimony would you likely qualify for if you went to court, given your ages and length of marriage?

Assuming it goes like most, after 35 years of m, the advantage h has is that he can retire at age 65 at which point it would stop. Which is just 5 years and that makes me sad/mad

OR he'd keep working until whenever, and then I'd get some until then. So whichever is later, I'd get spousal support

unless I earn big bucks like h says I can!

Ironically, if we had divorced 10 years ago, or 15, I'd get spousal support at least half the length of the m, and CS...by sticking it out, I get less.

I'm not saying the guy has to be hitched to the plow for ME...but we all know h's resume is pristine and mine's the opposite, our moves all helped his career and hurt my career.

but that's life. At least I got all that time with the kids.

- It was my understanding that at least in my state, alimony could ALWAYS be revisited - that is, if my ex became disabled or was fired or something, he could always go back to court and get the alimony changed.

true in CA (though the law has changed about military disability if it hits 40% -- IF H goes that way - Congress says we both get it. Based on a case in which an amputee returned from combat and became an abusive alcoholic. 22 year marriage and he was fully disabled and the wife got nothing b/c disability is not divisible as marital property.

The law changed, thankfully, so that once a soldier hits 40% disability (I'm mostly sure of the numbers here) then both spouses get it so she won't be punished for the divorce but the disabled soldier won't lose his disability).

At this point none of that is relevant but it's something to bear in mind at time of signing.

So having a bird in the hand is better than a possibility of future income that may or may not come true.

if the numbers work, I agree

- He should not have cancelled the insurance, I suspect the court would have something to say about that. In my divorce my ex had to let me maintain insurance on him in case he died before paying me all the alimony he owed. (He did however insist I reduce it from the $500k policy we already owned to a $250k policy - lol, he didn't want me to have an "incentive" to have someone rub him out!!!!!!)

wtf? We have kids & i bet h leaves them nothing. I really think so. H is gone

- the buyout should be based on his imputed income and yours, not on his retirement "non-income"

Good God, let's hope so

- the buyout is calculated taking taxes into account. So, for instance, let's say alimony was going to be $25k for 10 years. That would have been tax deductible to him, so if he's going to be in a high tax bracket (say his top rate is close to 50% between state and federal), it would only have cost him say $13k/year. You on the other hand have to pay taxes on alimony, so assuming your top combined tax bracket turns out to be 30%, you would possibly only net $17,500 a year. Times ten years that would be $175,000 total BUT they also calculate in the interest you could make investing that lump sum. Assumptions here make a big difference - for instance, assuming that you will put it in a mutual fund and it will make 7% a year is a very very bad assumption. But they will probably want to use something overly optimistic like this. You on the other hand might want to use something very pessimistic, like current bond or CD interest rates which are quite low. The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.

i will have my cap/cfp (I think she is both) do this calculations. Good call

A quick rough calculation using the Financial Mentor ultimate retirement calculator online (a handy easy tool which lets you change a lot of assumptions - although in this case I'm missing the relatively small amount of taxes you might pay on your investment income) shows that for ten years of alimony at a take home of 17,500, he would need to give you a lump sum of around $171k and change if we assume a 2% interest rate on that investment. If we assume a 7% interest rate, he only needs to pay you $131k. (this assumes that the lump sum he is giving you is marital assets that you do not have to pay taxes on).

how would they Not be marital assets?

Now - if you're in a position to use the money to pay off a mortgage on a home for yourself (that is, you can earn enough income to cover your other expenses until retirement) then you can actually make a guaranteed 4% on that money (or whatever your mortgage interest is.) There are arguments for and against paying off your mortgage this way, depending on your situation.

i now have zero real estate. But thats something I need to get

If you opt for the alimony route instead, then he HAS to allow you to keep an insurance policy on him, and I would fight to make him pay you the difference between the cost of a new policy and the (probably cheaper) cost of the old policy. Also insist on an automatic withdrawal.

I'm still smh...idiot crazy jerk

Also, bear in mind, if some of the money that he is going to use to buy you out is in a 401k or some such, you will have to pay taxes on it when it comes out, just as you would on the alimony. In that case, you would need $187 k if assuming 7% annual growth of investment, or $244k if assuming a safe 2% growth rate. (If you use 4%, you would need a lump sum of $219k).

evidently if you are under 59, the 401k is taxed much less than an IRA is, at time of divorce. Don't ask me why, ask Congress.

Odds are, if he hears the actual figures, he will want to pay you alimony instead as it's a better deal for him (and hope that you drop dead or he truly retires before he's done paying it all). So you will have to consider how much is it worth to you to negotiate, in order to have the bird in the hand.

I think if he gives me ALL of the retirement accounts, he'd still come out ahead over spousal support but I'm not counting the tax consequences, but I'd agree that it's better for me than dealing with this crap.

Plus I could remarry (I mean someday!)

What a fool...stupid greedy fool.

I guess OW makes a lot of money b/c that is clearly very important to h. Along with lots of adoration.

My son is trying to be the man of the house. He submitted an affidavit today. UGH...

and d19 is really hurt that h won't pay her college. It's $60k a year (- the $15k scholarship and we paid the others college).

H says I can pay it from all the money HE is giving me. Which is odd, given that I'm getting nothing from him above random small amounts I discover in my bank account.

Let's hope that means he thinks he will have to pay and thus, he's only a selfish jerk blaming me, as opposed to blaming me insanely and not paying me...

Sometimes I want to reach out to say "this CANNOT be what you wanted..."

which is a really bad idea of mine.

Quote:

assumes that the lump sum he is giving you is marital assets that you do not have to pay taxes on).

how would they Not be marital assets?

If he gives you a lump sum at the divorce that comes from, say , his half of the house equity or from non-retirement savings accounts - that's just a division of assets and there are no tax consequences.

On the other hand, if the lump sum comes from him giving you his half of the 401k - you will pay income tax on that 401k money as you withdraw it. (I'm not sure but I think there's an option for a limited time around the divorce to withdraw money from the 401k without having to pay the 10% early withdrawal penalty, but you still have to pay ordinary income tax on it unless you roll it over directly to an IRA or another 401k.

Also, btw, you CAN take distributions from your 401k earlier without penalty through Section 72(t) under a rule about substantially equal payments. It requires you to take even payments for five years using one of three amortization schedules; since you're so close though you may not want to tie yourself to that withdrawal for five years.

25,

Since I'm a CPA I can't give advice plus you didn't ask me for it but just wanted you to know kml layed out some good general advice. I've done plenty of these since our clients get divorced sometimes. I've seen them pissed, crying, and everything in between. I assisted with no emotions bc I didn't understand but I sure do now.

Anyways, hope you have a great day. Just wanted to tell you thanks for posting solid advice on my page and when I see your name pop up on home page I read everytime.

You seem like a special lady, hang in there.

thanks guys (KML, Dale, particularly)

So as a general underlying assumption (knowing I'm going to see a financial planner for this anyhow)

figure out what the spousal support would be for 5+ years, AND factor in that I'd pay taxes on that as income

and h would get to deduct it (though he's a doctor he is SO pain avoidant that he will tune out about money issues like tax consequences. This was my arena but my focus was on a good return on investments, not divorce...H will get glazed furious eyes and wait for the "authority figure" to tell him which number is higher)

ANYHOW that ^^rant is over...

so I add up whatever lump sum he'd offer AND then factor in the tax consequences (I heard the financial person say the 401k was treated differently for those under 59 in a divorce, from other IRA's)

I'd roll it over until I know what the heck I'm going to do or where to live. Am I missing something there? I like the stock market and have done well there, but I'd prefer it outside of a retirement account for reasons you guys can figure out.

I'd still get a pension too, but that is taxed also. (If h thinks I will waive the pension share, he's mistaken. I am entitled to that by law, not HIM. He does have to "agree" but I will not give that up. It's a "free" annuity and there's no amount in the retirement account that will make up for that) - unless h has been hiding money super well OR unless his dad gives him some of his expected inheritance early -which btw, he did for h's brother. Hmmm, now that i think of it...that may be how h is pretending to have retired...ANYHOW

IF NOT for rent or a mortgage in this pricey area, I'd be fine on the pension alone, and whatever I earn would be gravy.

The retirement accounts would be my next egg. Oh but lest we forget, half that retirement is mine anyhow, I will bet you both some Gin & Tonics or the drinks of your choice, that h "Forgets" that half is mine anyhow. Yep that thought just occurred to me and it's safe to assume he somehow did not compute that.

i'm telling you that when it comes to money he is very weird and fear based.

SO I can either make all my loved ones move to a cheaper real estate area, or - or I don't know.

Live cheaply but have fun, overseas for awhile - and come back when I'm ready to settle somewhere,

AND OR buy some investment properties with positive cash flows in much cheaper areas I'm familiar with and in which I could live if pressed b/c I like them (e.g. San Antonio - a place we were stationed and still have friends in)
It is a place I could live even though I have no family there. Very affordable and I like drier climates.

At some point - 65?? Do we all try to live near our grandkids or siblings?

Where's the manual on this???

Lots to figure out.

Woke up at 5 am feeling weird and anxious but did not recall any dream. Forced myself back to bed and woke up at 9 with a dream I DID recall

and not a good one.

H haunts my dreams and interferes with my sleep. Takes up way too much of my day time too.

I know I can change the day time obsession by GAL and other than GDC, I can and must and WILL do that.

But dang, the nights are hard.

I can see why dating would be so appealing. I really can. Fill that void or at least avoid looking at it.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

his dad gives him some of his expected inheritance early

I am not sure if you are consulting with a lawyer but my belief, at least in the state I live in is that inheritance if not co-mingled with marital assets is not part of a divorce agreement.
If it is kept separately in a non-joint account it can be exempted.

Originally Posted By: Cadet

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

his dad gives him some of his expected inheritance early

Cadet - yes I understand it's (usually) not marital property

Generally In CA they only consider it as part of the overall ability to pay. H claims he is unable to pay b/c, you know, he's 60 and "retired" and (never mind the contract and the buy out and the 10 year plan...) and shared living expenses with OW may also play a role in that, but I'm not certain. H was debating the sep date too, by a few weeks. I could not understand why b/c we were "married' in every way till the day he left but maybe he got money and commingled but I think he just wanted to not look as if he left a w after her release from the hospital and had her sign a note waiving rights to a joint account.

Both scenarios stink...I mean, ouch.

Anyhow MY main point was mostly that it's inexplicably crappy -given the reality of his future finances--

- for h to do things like send half of the NET of the pension to me, to save a few hundred bucks as if it won't be noticed?? What does he think when he does that? What spin does he put on that? I know, I Know, don't try to put a rational spin on irrational behavior. Plus, his anger is so odd and his narrative is so distorted I cannot spend time wondering that but I DO want the money!!

AND

he contacts our kids (& God only knows who else) to complain about me and to play the victim role BIG TIME

even telling s31 he'd "retire before giving her ALL this money - b/c he will DIE if he has to work that hard"

as if 1) temporarily paying me a portion of "his" income would somehow make him work "harder" and die, and

as if
2) he isn't getting millions from his dad -

and so this whole narrative of his being forced to live in a hovel - or OW's house?? and worked to death is pretty much insane victimhood.

Not sure if you read this but he also cancelled a life ins policy I got on him when he was deployed 5-6 years ago.

Mind you, I am the payor and have been paying the premium out of pocket or my credit card, for the whole time.

I mean, I don't know how he recalled having this policy,

but I know It took some effort on his part to call USAA to cancel the policy (he's the "owner" even though I got it and pay for it etc)

and the call notes said "COL/DOCTOR H was informed wife had been paying all premiums. COL/DOCTOR h insists the policy be cancelled."

Now, me getting another policy (more expensive due to his age) still requires him to approve it , which I think it is safe to say is not likely...

yet it cost him nothing for me to have that policy. I'm leaving whatever I own at time of death, to our children. So in effect he lessens what they'd get too.

Other than planning to off himself soon, and to punish me more

(and for what??? I swear, hand to God I'm baffled that he sees himself as the aggrieved party in this. I would almost prefer pity)

- the only other explanation for the policy cancellation is that he wants to make sure I get as little as possible in any way - ever-- to control from the grave? Why does he care?

I'm the mother of his children. Why would he want me to be in a sad financial position and or to give our kids nothing if we both pass away in the next decade?

Or maybe, maybe he thinks this will pressure me to settle?? (I will be inserting a clause for life insurance, btw and he can pay the increased costs -so that's stupid financially).

But If it's that, if he thinks that ^^motivates me MORE to settle, OMG what a fool.

He's got such a bad knack for tactical negotiations.

Just irritated me so much that it took all of my willpower & my sisters, not to text him a blasting message.

Just to say how little self awareness he has & NO insight into how his choices are viewed by those who know...

(**Yeah, I know. I'll send the exact right words in just the correct order and...and....

THEN he'll see!!)**

25, I think I've solved it.

You know, the one thing about support and dividing assets is that we can't have families forced to choose between abuse and poverty. I get that. There must be a minimal living arrangement that will allow them to protect themselves and their children.

But we know that the vast majority of marriages end for other reasons. So here's my plan. We need a MAXIMUM walk away clause as well!

Wait- hear me out- For a spouse that walks away from the marriage, they must move into a dormitory like walk away shelter. This can be funded by the LBS and/or the LBS's estate and/or the government (but it won't matter, keep reading). They get their clothes, car, and up to $5,000 in possessions and $5,000 in emergency funds. Everything else stays with the LBS.

Now, if a spouse cheats, then the non-cheating spouse can kick the cheating spouse out INTO the cheater shelter. Boom, here's your 5K, have a good life!

And we could even work something like that in there for physical abuse as well. Open hand half-hearted slap one drunken night, you're on the watch list bro. Bruises or blood drawn, GTFO! No soup for you!

The best part is we could even label them like the sex offenders list. Maybe the dorm would be like a big condo, with a huge Donald Trump sized "Cheaters, Abusers, and Vow Breakers!" sign at the top.

No one would go hungry. No one would lack for medical attention or shelter. But we would once and for all eliminate the lack of financial and social consequences that enables this type of destructive behavior. That's why it wouldn't be hard to fund. Who would want to bang their secretary if they knew they'd lose everything? Would they really want to go out for a drunken night with their old high school 'friend' from facebook if they knew it would be off to the cheater's mansion? I THINK NOT.

Problem solved. You're welcome world.

(But we aren't made of stone, are we 25. For your WAH, we would make sure he gets a penthouse dorm. Something with a good view. Maybe he'd even be able to see his old house from up there...)

[quote=beatrice]This suicide/murder story is so very sad.

It reminds us of the very strong emotions that swirl around the break-up of long term marriages and how much pain and suffering they cause.

Yes...(Good to see you Beatrice...sort of, if you know what I mean)

Both d28 & d19 are seeing T's and d19 is on meds. (She did make the dean's list however). S31 is, imo, taking on too much of the "big brother" role. Calls me almost daily.

He wrote a statement to help me undo the waiver I signed when I got out of the hospital. (The one my MD h handed me, after I'd been in a neuro unit & was simply screwed up). What s31 wrote was all true but horrible to read so I can only imagine how it must have felt for him.

Point is, even though 2 of my kids are out of the house on their own, they are wounded and so of course is the youngest. And I see a T, I'm in a DivorceCare group and have a ton of support nearby. Actually I just laughed a bit,

b/c the only one NOT in therapy of any sort, is h... No divorce is painless.

The view that 'these things happen' needs to be challenged. My (adult) children's lives, and mine are forever changed. We are not living in the past, and have all forged good lives, but the past casts a long shadow. And since my xh is still not happy you have to wonder!

how can one know the WAS is not happy?

Not sure how one would know how their ex is doing emotionally other than their words, which we cannot trust.

From my h's FB posts - he is SO HAPPY...with the "love of his life" which he posted within 6 weeks of sep and yes, I can see the crazy, over the top piece of that.

( I would not post that if I had an ex boyfriend of 6 months, just b/c I'd know it was hurtful.) So he's over compensating AND OR rubbing my nose in it AND OR lacks the empathy gene.

Of course I am not advocating that unhappy and dysfunctional marriages should be forced to endure, but the idea that it is normal to divorce after 10, 15, 20, 25, 30 years or more of marriage does need questioning.

I So agree. Yes it does need a lot of questioning. H did zero IC maybe ever...

I worry how Our children will react when they face inevitable challenges in their own m's. That haunts me. My Kids think I stayed too long.

My kids supported my filing, & think that i stayed too long. That Is painfully bittersweet. They saw things I missed or looked away from, which is a huge part of my therapy/IC.
Or what if I had left earlier?

What could I have recovered in my new life, then? Or what might h have learned and then maybe changed?

What if H and I had had an authentic discussion (without any shame, a huge problem for h)? What if we had done that - years ago, what might have been? What could we have salvaged?

What if h had known then, the cost of his choices?

maybe if the WAS's knew the future ramifications of their choices, or thought it out realistically, they'd make different choices. How would you make that happen?
That might be the type of counseling we could hope for. I mean, it's not that different from those financial projections the CPA's and CFP's do.

Get a shrink or therapist to say "statistics show that children of divorce in THESE situations tend to --- "thrive/survive/take a dive" under the following conditions..." etc.

OR "chances are that your finances will suffer forever OR for a decade, dating will/will not be what you hope for, AP's will reveal flaws,
your kids will never, ever see you in the same light, your companion whom you once loved and probably could have worked things out with, is not really even your friend anymore and guess what?

You will miss them someday - and your "family" vacations and graduations and weddings and grandchildren's births - will not be approached or enjoyed or experienced the same way or at the same level as they would have been...some people will blame you, some will resent you the rest of your life..and they will have problems in their r's, some of which are related to seeing your choices..and after your death, you will Not be remembered for being a great h or father but for leaving them..."

Wow, now that I write that out, I guess I feel better in one way. The LBSer who does not fall apart, must remind themselves of the above facts that are Not true for them.
They will remember us showing up for them.

It's the WAS who has to live with the second thoughts and doubts and looking over the shoulder to see how the LBSer is doing...

whereas we have no choice but to live well.

Mostly, when I go down the rabbit hole of "What if we had honesty back then...??"

I think if we had an authentic fully truthful discussion, h would have told me things that would have killed me to know.

I'll never be sure, but I now feel that way. (e.g. "25's not my priority. I need to get my way or to live life as a single man - but I know how that sounds, so I'll keep dressing it up as something else...")

And I bought the dressed up excuses. I did not want to see what seems obvious to me now, in retrospect. I did the heavy lifting for most of our m.

OR maybe he'd have made some sort of moral change (that seems very unrealistic at the moment.)
If he had rearranged his priorities we would not be here. I would not have filed for divorce - I really was committed.

Now that I'm not trying to fit into his dreams I can figure out what mine are. I mean, I want to embrace what life threw at me.

What healthy choice do I have?

It is easier to break up a long term marriage than it is to unilaterally dissolve a business relationship in many jurisdictions.

well, we/they THINK it's easier...but I take your point.

I like this Zues

okay I'm just going with the revenge rabbit hole for a minute!!

Maybe have the WAS's see us eating our meals from their windows , while they have their gruel...no salt or sugar allowed for them. (Turns out, I like gluten!)

AND when friends choose sides, they have to choose ours and shun the WAS!

For the conflict avoiders we just give them what WE want when we want to , b/c we don't want "them to feel uncomfortable" being expected to express their opinions.

Oh and They can wear shirts that say "expect no meaningful information but seething resentment, from me".

I think scarlet letters are okay on clothing - with numbers or an infinity sign next to the A if it's a repeat.

Oh and for those who deliberately hide or basically steal marital money

they get a big $$$
on their shirts...

Liars could wear shirts that say "believe nothing I say"

For the utterly lazy who do no heavy lifting in the m, b/c they like sitting on the couch drinking a beer watching the game, or "napping" while the kids need them,

maybe an actual photo of a sloth with the shirt that reads "Sloth sits/lays here"...

and for those who unilaterally choose to have no intimacy in the m b/c they "just don't feel like it...for months/years"

maybe a sign saying "I'm celibate & expected my spouse to be that way too" sign

Or a photo of a nun with an "oops, I forgot I'm married!" picture.

Okay, now I'm laughing.

I know your post wasn't about revenge, but for WAS to think things out...
but then my revenge fantasy took over, and it got "funner".

And I laugh at myself when I admit how petty I can feel. it's a way to identify it and hopefully, diffuse it.

For now, it just makes me laugh at (myself) and the energy I give h - and hopefully that will help me lessen the space he has in my head and heart.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

You were joking?

Great. What am I going to do with all of these t-shirts?!?

Hang in 25 and have a great weekend.

Quote:

how can one know the WAS is not happy?

Not sure how one would know how their ex is doing emotionally other than their words, which we cannot trust.

Well 25years, I tend not to write what I can't provide evidence for!!

There are many many signs (these guys may run fast and hard at first for after a few years many of them begin hanging around the edges of our lives again down the line.)

Since I am not writing War and Peace I won't give you all the details, because I don't have time to write them!!.

However, two quick points. My 3 children (and remember we are now nearly 12 years post bomb drop), have some sort of contact with their father, strongly encouraged by me. There were years when they didn't and now they feel sorry for him. Their consensus is that he isn't a happy man.

I still work with a therapist periodically - this is something I choose to do for a whole range of reasons, so all of you Newcomers, don't worry - therapy this far in isn't necessary or mandatory!

My xh contacts me periodically on the flimsiest of excuses, and yes, I have had apologies, masses of regret, but also a lot of self-justification . . . . anyway, I share these with my therapist and his professional view of the email contacts and their content is that they come from a man who is deeply unself-aware, and very very unhappy. But also extremely manipulative.

So on the evidence, and short of my xh saying he is unhappy, I believe he is. I don't need him to be, and in many ways I wish he were happier

I don't think they run because they are unhappy, but because they are depressed covertly, and/or not getting what they think they want out of life.

Initially they are on a high, or at least many of them act this way, and tell everyone they have never been happier. I can't say how genuine it is, but my xh has told me in the last couple of years that everything I have predicted about him leaving and the consequences were 100% right. He even asked me what was going to happen next. I have a pretty good idea, but didn't think sharing it would help anyone.

He never did marry first OW and his current wife appears to be very like his mother.

Originally Posted By: beatrice

Quote:

how can one know the WAS is not happy?
Not sure how one would know how their ex is doing emotionally other than their words, which we cannot trust.

There are many many signs (these guys may run fast and hard at first for after a few years many of them begin hanging around the edges of our lives again down the line.)

However, two quick points. My 3 children (and remember we are now nearly 12 years post bomb drop), have some sort of contact with their father, strongly encouraged by me. There were years when they didn't and now they feel sorry for him. Their consensus is that he isn't a happy man.

My xh contacts me periodically on the flimsiest of excuses, and yes, I have had apologies, masses of regret, but also a lot of self-justification . . . . anyway, I share these with my therapist and his professional view of the email contacts and their content is that they come from a man who is deeply unself-aware, and very very unhappy. But also extremely manipulative.

So on the evidence, and short of my xh saying he is unhappy, I believe he is. I don't need him to be, and in many ways I wish he were happier

I don't think they run because they are unhappy, but because they are depressed covertly, and/or not getting what they think they want out of life.

Initially they are on a high, or at least many of them act this way, and tell everyone they have never been happier. I can't say how genuine it is, but my xh has told me in the last couple of years that everything I have predicted about him leaving and the consequences were 100% right. He even asked me what was going to happen next. I have a pretty good idea, but didn't think sharing it would help anyone.

He never did marry first OW and his current wife appears to be very like his mother.

I couldn't agree more with this ^^^^&

Especially the bolded part.

The escape and avoid running for a false illusion of happiness that they can never find.

Beatrice,

I hope it didn't sound as if I doubted you. I just asked how we'd know.

Yes - my ego is a huge part of this curiosity absolutely. Me & my ego have been given a huge blow and I cannot pretend I'm "fine" or detached.

Another part of me (codependent? Or just Enmeshed after 35 years??)

is concerned for him, and of course for my kids. I hope someday they will have better r's but frankly I think my ego damage is why I'm okay with their lousy r's for now.

Plus h's being such a $hit with the div process (canceling a life ins policy on him that I pay for?? Only one reason - to be mean. Good grief, smh).

I know how petty and bitter ^^^ this sounds. I'm not proud of it. And I don't want to feel this way. I'm angry, I'm hurt and disgusted. I feel very betrayed.

And yes I believe in time I'll detach better and see h in a more sympathetic light, which I suspect will be pity. There is no "winning" for h b/c regardless of how HAPPY HE (FINALLY) IS, he will never be seen in a good light thru our kids' eyes.

Today my youngest sent me a Happy Father's Day message (for raising her on my own).

That was well intended I think, but it was sad. (And sad for h). And I know s31 is disgusted by h's getting me to sign the waiver to joint accounts (you may recall, I had been hospitalized for seizures I'd never had before, was in the ICU for a week, and a week later on new meds. Pretty much impaired, which is what s31 attested to. Said his "Doctor father took advantage of his mother and there's no way mother would have signed any such thing if it were not for being impaired" -

so Hard to read b/c it was all true and made me feel like an incompetent, which I guess I was, legally speaking.

ANYHOW

All of^^^ that makes it hard for me to imagine h backing down in ANY way from his "it's your mother's/25's fault". H must have told no one up on the tundra what's going on b/c honestly, how do you tell people you did THAT?

So Do I want h back? Obviously not as he is now.

AND in truth, too much damage has been done for me to recon even if he had the seismic change required. It's not a realistic hope - too many steps to take on HIS end and too many doubts about our past on my end (what was real/Another lie??)

So what is it I want from him, going forward (other than a good settlement and less hostility)?

Deep REMORSE...and how much time & energy am I willing to give that "hope"?

My goal is to give this^^^ "ego driven hope" zero energy. Which is essentially full detachment.

I must learn not to care at all about him, other than being the man who fathered my kids... Is this goal attainable and if so, how?

Beatrice if your h is married again, can you imagine being his wife now, knowing he's regretful?

I think my h will marry his OW b/c if that r fails, he will have lost too much to keep blaming me. He will have lost me, our kids and our history and for what? Some of his friends have reached out to me, too. I'm sure their wives are not thrilled with his leaving the first time I was really sick, and for an adventure.

Plus he's been SO PUBLIC about how happy he finally is...that loss might be too much for him, but here I go again, giving him headspace.

SIDENOTE - what is with the PUBLIC announcements of OW? I swear I don't get it.

H almost never posted about our family (I'm not sure he ever did other than maybe a graduation picture, once or twice). Suddenly he's posting about his "honey meeting his family!!" and calling her "the love of his life" and kissing her at the beach we went to every year.

Who does that? Okay okay I'm better - off the ledge...sometimes realizing how weird that is, helps me. B/c I know it's weird.

and it's Painful as he11, but also damn, it's also very strange for a guy who was m and STILL IS, for 35 years...to post as if I never existed.

I'm redirecting thoughts b/c I know what's in my head also affects what's in my heart, and we all want some peace in our hearts.

Getting there.

PS

I'm (nearly) positive H is not where he wanted/expected to be financially. Yes he blames me 100%.

I don't know if that's depression or frustration or insanely delusional or all 3, but he was irritable and nasty the past year we were together. So I take your point - though he's certainly missed his calling as an actor.

I guess for h not to be "there" - at this stage of life - wherever "there" is, and to lose his family/m too, well, I don't know how he'll deal with that.

And I probably won't ever know. I don't think I'll get the massive apology - too much pride for that.

Detachment...yes, working on it!

Hi 25,

Sorry for how you're feeling. I'm glad you realize you won't get remorse. I never got an apology or any remorse, the closest I got was a "sorry you feel that way" which is really a non-pology.

I think the public declarations by H are as much to convince himself of how happy he is as they are to brag to the world about his happiness and freedom. I'm sure he is unhappy at his core, so he's trying to convince himself otherwise by projecting this public persona.

Please try not to project his decisions onto you. He's not doing these things to hurt you or to spite you, or to hurt your kids. He's being self-serving and thinking only of himself. There's nothing else on his landscape other than what he wants. By projecting yourself onto his landscape you're making it so much worse for you.

I realize it's a process you have to go through so of course keep venting until you decide it's time to stop.

With W I remember when I realized that I had finally dropped the rope. I didn't even notice it happening, but one day I realized that I literally didn't care what she was up to or what she was doing, and that if she wanted to come back the answer would be a firm "no" no matter what she said.

She noticed when that happened and she got very upset but it, and accused me of not caring if she existed or not (she was pretty much right, but I don't know why she was upset by it).

You'll get there, eventually H won't be on your landscape at all.

Acc

I think it is excellent that we ask each other about the evidence for an opinion - not at all offended even if you had doubted me.

right now, I suspect that your h is on some sort of high - it is all wonderful. Gradually, as Garrison Keillor observed, this wears off.

My xh was an incredible $hit in the divorce process and I have heard other horror stories. Not sure what is going on there - punishment of us, outward projection of guilt and confusion, determination to get as much as possible - and it is OK for us to be angry about this treatment.

We have been betrayed, and badly treated. I wouldn't behave toward a casual friend the way that my xh husband treated me

It is and it isn't personal. They want to hurt us, but that is down to their issues, not ours.

You will detach in time, but asking us not to MIND, Good grief, that is unrealistic.

I cannot imagine being his wife, but I imagine she has her own issues. He is full of regret, and even remorse at times (this one comes and goes!!)

I see him as someone I loved deeply, miss the person he was, but have no control over anything but how I behave towards others, and how I treat myself.

They are almost invariably very public about OW - flaunting it, almost as a cover for their own insecurity.

They behave as if we never existed, and when you think about it, that is very very odd. They are operating so far from the shores of what most people see as normal behaviour that this alone should be a clue that all is far from well.

At some point, and it will not be soon, your h will miss you and all he has thrown away, but for most of these MLCers the road back is too painful.

In my experience you head gets there first, and your heart somewhat later.

These days I am grateful for what I had, sad for what I lost, and concerned that so few people realise how destructive this behaviour is.

Today's DB joke

"Saying 'I'm sorry' and apologizing are the same things....

except at a funeral."

25...considering the circumstances, I think it would be far more unusual if the WW spouse *wasn't* acting like everything was wonderful. He paid a huge price to be with this OW--walking away from a long term marriage, family, and life history. He has to justify to himself and the people around him that it was all worth it. Truly happy people/couples don't need to convince others that they are happy.

Hi 25,

In response to your question:

"I must learn not to care at all about him, other than being the man who fathered my kids... Is this goal attainable and if so, how?"

Just wanted to confirm that my experience (6 years post-BD now) has been the same as that described by Beatrice & Accuray.

The goal is attainable, but because of the trauma we've experienced (and, as Bea says, so few realise how destructive this behaviour is) I believe it takes a long time to get to the point where you no longer care.

So, although there's little comfort in it, my experience is that it just takes time to get there - but we do get there.

With the passage of time, one day - as Accuray says - you realise that you no longer care / that nothing they do or say has an affect on you (beyond perhaps being slightly bemused at the oddness).

I still feel sad for what my kids and I had to go through, but I also feel good about us and how we've come out the other side. The focus has shifted from XH - he's no longer someone we can care about (and he is responsible for that).

I hear you anna

and thanks.

Alaska 2.0 began a & From timelines and his sudden change of tune, he met OW about 8 weeks before his planned "re-boot of the m/temporary sep" so the nest was being feathered & his landing was very softened. Not sure if that's an exit affair and an entitled A, but not too sure I care.

ANYHOW back to the FB posts

When I heard of the FB posts, they sure felt personal. Like he was punishing me for - for what? Filing? Being to blame for all his ills unhappiness?
I mean, I get the blame part (not accepting it, but I get that It's not rare). I just don't get his punishing me & in public.

So, he cannot see how that looks to others?

Like HE is the aggrieved party...which is so gas lighting of him.

H's best friend & w, were "horrified" and reached out to me the day after the last "So Happy w/OW!" post. (I had been warned, & blocked h, thank God.)
H's BFF says he "tried to talk to H, but h won't listen."

When I step back, I KNOW in my head that it's odd and crazy looking. And when I can step back objectively, it does help me to detach. I mean, thank God.

Like usually it rolls off my back (which I attribute to my DB experience & frankly, has impressed me with myself.

)

But it sure is painful at times. And yeah, baffling.

If I were in his shoes, just wanting out of a m for my own reasons that I've justified - I cannot for the life of me grasp posting anything like "in a r" or showing photos of me kissing OM, even if I were divorced if it was at all recent. I'd be so much more discreet and considerate of the person I had been with. I'd be more discreet and considerate of someone I had dated for 6 months. We are still m.

So I realize I was holding onto a m with a person who would not be there for me down the road if I really needed him.

Someone capable of cruelty to the mother of his kids.

Yeah, this ^^ reality check does help me. And knowing that it's not rare, also helps.
Sad but not unique. But it's damn mean. Neither i, nor Our kids will never see him the same way and he somehow does not know this. In fact I think a lot of folks we know won't see him in the same light. But maybe the new fan base who has heard God only knows what, that makes him the victim...

Okay I'm back off the ledge. Going to see d19 this weekend for her court appearance so that ought to be super fun...nope, h does not know, per d19's request.

S31 said "h is GONE, mom." But it's not the first parenting thing I've done on my own.

Good riddance to lunacy.

Quote:

Good riddance to lunacy

And negativity!

Honestly, once I realized how nice it was not walking on eggshells all the time, I started to get used to the idea of Ex being gone.

there is a lot to be said for not having eggshells.

I think maybe Accuray wrote about how we feel so out of control when this happens - that we think that we think we want our spouses back

but really we want our lives back. Right now there is so much fear and uncertainty.

The sooner I fully feel in charge of my own life the sooner I'll be at peace.

Even just thinking of how much less stress there is in my face, helps.

Looking forward to the finances being worked out (though I'm also fearful).

And moving on...

There's something I really enjoyed about having my finances back totally under my own control. Even though I, like you, was already the money manager in the house, it's nice to know what I'm working with and not having to worry about being derailed by erratic or impulsive decisions by the ex.

Check out the Mr Money Moustache blog. Good food for thought, even though I'm not that frugal at present, it's inspiring and gets me to think outside the box. (And it's clear that I COULD retire now if I chose to; I don't because I enjoy my work and want to be in a position to help my kids a bit. But it's a good feeling to know I have options.)

I have serious love/hate relationship with social media. I have enjoyed it because my ex left in 2008 (when facebook began) and I was left alone, in our home that was about 45 min away from my friends with an infant. It kept my connected and not isolated.

Still does the same for me today. I enjoy the recipes and the funny memes and it sadly enough just makes me feel less alone.

I have found just about everyone is trying to create an illusion or portray a picture, whether or not it is true. I can point to some happy family pictures and know that one's H is an alcoholic, or that W is cheating on her H.......

Then I started to hae ex's of my own. I saw my exH's an OWW wedding picture with my baby girl on Social media and almost just died. I've been fortunate that anyone I have dated since my ex had accounts, but didn't really use them. But enough that an ex got tagged and I was able to find out that he was seeing someone else before we ended. It's enough that I have been going crazy over simply watching my exBF like posts of a firl who was jealous of us and treated us rudely. And to see he likes nothing of mine and has completely ignored me, when he liked everything I posted when we were dating. And I m admittedly guilty of posting to get a reaction from him sometimes.

I mean, come on, it sounds so ridiculous when you say it out loud. "he liked her post but not mine?" and that could rock a world and I can't quite wrap my head around the psychology of it.

I noticed the most stable couples are the ones who keep their R's off of social media. They have nothing to prove to the world. And usually, the ones who post like your H does is trying to prove something to HIMSELF, because HE is not entirely convinced.

I think, and others agree, that this extends past Rs and to the person. It's all about "look at me" or "hear what I have to say". I rarely post on social media, as Ginger can attest. I even block others from posting on my page. But I'm a rather private person who would rather fly under the radar. Why does everyone need to know where I'm having lunch or whatever? I guess it looks like I lead a very boring life and never go anywhere. Not at all the case. I just rarely post about it.

I see friends who post all sorts of things about or with a new girlfriend or a new boyfriend. Then in a couple of months to half a year they break up and they go back and either delete or hide all of the posts after they break up. I can't tell you how common this is. Perhaps it's a "thing" and I just don't know it?

Yet, I do enjoy seeing what everyone else is up to. Where they are, what they are doing. Others say they enjoy hearing the same from me. I don't know, it's just not for me I guess.

I know I'll never get married again. Wonder if I'll ever change my FB status to "in a relationship"? That really would be a milestone for me!

Originally Posted By: DonH

Why does everyone need to know where I'm having lunch or whatever? I guess it looks like I lead a very boring life and never go anywhere. Not at all the case. I just rarely post about it. to half a year they break up and they go back and either

I see friends who post all sorts of things about or with a new girlfriend or a new boyfriend. Then in a couple of months delete or hide all of the posts after they break up. I can't tell you how common this is. Perhaps it's a "thing" and I just don't know it?

Yet, I do enjoy seeing what everyone else is up to. Where they are, what they are doing. Others say they enjoy hearing the same from me. I don't know, it's just not for me I guess.

I know I'll never get married again. Wonder if I'll ever change my FB status to "in a relationship"? That really would be a milestone for me!

First, Don, because FOOD IS LIFE!! But don't check in unless I get to see your meal.

A week before FF and I broke up, my friend asked me why I hadn't changed my FB relationship status. I said because 1) I am superstitious and it feels like a jinx, the second I post it, it will end and I will have to explain.
2) People who really know me, will know I am in an R.

Now I can say, that's something I've never done - posted a picture of my meal. Lol. I have "checked in" a few times - nearly always out of state.

See, had you changed your status... You'd have said "I knew it...!"

I can tell a lot about a person by what they post online. Perhaps others can tell a lot about me by the lack of what I post online?

Never really thought about this but my R status on FB has never changed! Then again my profile pic has only changed like 5 times so... Gawd I'm boring!

Quote:

I know I'll never get married again. Wonder if I'll ever change my FB status to "in a relationship"? That really would be a milestone for me!

Quote:

A week before FF and I broke up, my friend asked me why I hadn't changed my FB relationship status. I said because 1) I am superstitious and it feels like a jinx, the second I post it, it will end and I will have to explain.

I do not post a status at all. It was clear to me early on that if you post your status as single, then there will come an incredibly awkward moment in a new relationship where you might be expected to change it - or might change it too early. Same with a breakup.

Even right now - I've told sociopath ex boyfriend that there's no possibility of us dating until he is at least a year into his sobriety. In reality, I never plan to date him again at all, but knowing him, making that too clear to him at this point might derail his rehab and I DO want him sober, not just for his sake but because it's safer for all involved if he gets and stays sober. If I had a FB status, it might still say "in a relationship" - giving him false hope - or changed to "single" - triggering a possible scene. (Plus it would mean lots of well-meaning inquiries from people that I don't really feel like discussing the situation with). I'm really happy right now I never posted a status - was just thinking about this on my drive into work this morning!

So, "If I had a FB status, it might still say "in a relationship" - giving him false hope."

Okay, true enough but then: "I've told sociopath ex boyfriend that there's no possibility of us dating until he is at least a year into sobriety."

And how is THAT not false hope? I mean, just trying to keep it real here. Are they BOTH not false hope?

There's a difference between being his girlfriend now ( which I have tried to make clear I am not) and removing all hope for the future (which runs the risk of him not staying in rehab long enough to get sober). Yes, it's still false hope, but if my status said in a relationship, it would imply I still AM his girlfriend.

Subtle differences, sure, but important ones at the moment, and made much easier by not having a public relationship status at all.

before the days of social media and announcing our relationship status, the only public display was wearing a wedding ring. Either you are married or you aren't!

No one work a sign that said "It's Complicated"

"wore"

Interesting weird but good experience.

Had an amazingly bad dream the other day. Was in a house h & I owned and he had replaced the carpeting with sheets of the same color (nothing like yanking the rug out from under me).

Heard him talking with OW about their future dream home, met her and in my dream she's a muttering hillbilly, but she held a baby really close to her face so I couldn't slap it I guess.

And the neighbors came over to tell me they thought I knew b/c "everyone knew".

("Dear subconscious, can't you be more original?? Why not "hit me in the head with a hammer"??)

ANYHOW of course i felt gross. It was ruining my day, but I had an appointment with my T.

T was talking about how much energy it took me to maintain the illusion that h was a good father even if flawed, that he really loved our family (and me) and valued our time together.

I like to think it was once true, and that he changed...but she's right, I spent so much emotional and mental energy buying into the wrapped up crap about how THIS job that was only 4 hours away during the week

was for a pension/opportunity or that he had to "take care of his mom - out of state, check out a job somewhere else", etc etc

Fact is, h has been out the door for awhile and my enabling the pretense didn't do my kids any favors. They saw thru it and saw me pretzeling myself to believe in him.

And he's been a weird $h1tty man to me all year now. He's NOT a guy who wanted to spend a lot of time being a dad/h. That is now, self evident and I don't mean b/c he left. But b/c MY blinders are off. At least for now.

His fb posts are crazy - hurtful - but crazy looking.

I guess right now and for the past few days, I'm thinking I may have dodged a bullet.

If h could leave me behind in CA for the tundra (and was actually THERE when I had my first seizure on the east coast)

then he'd bolt if I were in a car crash in 2 years or was paralyzed or had a stroke in 20 years. He has not been there for me for a long time, with a few spurts of involvement now and then (enough to convince me that he was in the m, and maybe he was but not fully).

He's not reliable and he's a lousy partner for ME. If he completely changes for OW, then I guess he'll have learned something from how lousy he was with his original family.

But at this moment I feel a sense of freedom from someone who would not have been good to ME again.

Maybe the nightmare hurt me so much I have a protective wall of detachment growing.

And I'll take that any day.

off to Beantown to keep d19 out of jail for the assault/arrest.
I know she'll prevail ultimately, but this ain't cheap and it comes at such a lousy time for me personally (not that it's fun for d19 either). She's terrified and furious.

Nope, h does not know any of this. & Certainly not paying...

after Monday I'll try to scramble for college money out of the universe b/c I literally do not have it. I can pay my rent till the July hearing.

But that's for future 25 to worry about.

Now, back to my detachment

Quote:

and in my dream she's a muttering hillbilly,

Lol - giggling over this.

Don't worry, the dreams go away over time.

Good luck with D and her legal issues. Hopefully it will be quickly recognized that she was the victim of an assault.

Originally Posted By: kml

Quote:

and in my dream she's a muttering hillbilly,

Lol - giggling over this.

Don't worry, the dreams go away over time.

Good luck with D and her legal issues. Hopefully it will be quickly recognized that she was the victim of an assault.

Thanks. I was actually disappointed in how uncreative the nightmare was.

I mean, really? "Sheets that look like carpet" replacing the rug I was standing on,

and the "future dream home" I somehow could read and hear on a cell phone between H and OW ... (she did mumble & mewl when I approached, in the dream).

Sheesh, you'd think there'd be better metaphors. Or at least more subtle.

("What 'symbolism'? I mean, maybe it was just the tuna salad...")

I wish I could say the dreams go away. Well okay, for the very most part I guess they do. But just last night I had a dream about exW. It's happened before too. Now I can assure you I'm beyond done and detached. We never talk, been divorced 11 years, and I'd never ever take her back. Yet I've had dreams with her in them. They are just that, however - dreams. I've had dreams of being chased, kissing a really hot friend, getting accused of doing something I did not do. They are just dreams. Out of our control and if you ask me, they mean nothing.

How did things go in court?

Originally Posted By: kml

How did things go in court?

Good news/Bad news. Bad news first - the motion to dismiss was filed Monday (wtf??) and so the judge agreed to hear argument FOR that motion in September...

I'm bummed the motion was not filed sooner so the DA could drop it or set a damn trial date, etc. So this is yet another step. And another trip and more money, etc.

GOOD news - despite my "file the motion earlier next time" comment, I do like the lawyer. I believe the DA will drop the case once they actually finally review it (the DA had about 45 files on the table and it's clear we have an insane system for processing cases that is NOT speedy) I did not criticize the L we hired for several reasons, esp since d19 trusts and likes him.

I think the L is a little delighted/surprised to have a client who appears provably innocent, which I can personally attest to being rare when you are a defense attorney in criminal law.

It's one thing to believe a client's version of events (uncommon, too) but another thing to have film of it.

Good news #2 is that the photos and videos (taken from different sources including the idiot attacker who posted his own video, then took it down, BUT which my s31 kept a copy of)

all taken together show about 90% of the whole event. My kid is the victim.
I understand the police at the time wanting things to stay calm and arresting both people in an altercation, I mean, I GUESS,

but why on earth doesn't the DA and our L take 5 minutes to just look, and drop the case against my kid (and charge the idiot with assault b/c it's ON FILM...) sigh...

Oh, and The idiot was arrested again last weekend and he is in the news! Same guy who shoved and hit my kid is "famous/notorious" for being a professional agitator. I didn't know this was a real thing, like you can go around protesting, or protesting a protest, and somehow raise funds and live off this crap.

AND HE did not show up in court again, incredibly. Maybe he's off harassing someone else and asking for funding for his "defense of America" or whatever. That makes like 3-4 bench warrants out for his no shows...

Also on HIS site, he humbly calls himself "courageous, but not a hero"....who says this??

PROBLEM is my d19 does not want to be the poster child for any of this. But it's turning political. I mean, the idiot IS political and that's not a shot against the side he's on.

Heck, I probably agree with more than half of this moron's positions, though I'd bet money he's never read a book on a topic, and he clearly does not have a real job.

And he's violent and mean and dangerous and drinks way too much and brags about it and he's 28. I don't want him on my "team", if you know what I mean.

I'm not sure how to handle things if it really does get more public than it already is b/c I want to pursue all legal avenues of redress against this horrible person.

But it's D19's call, and she just wants it to go away.

Now working on college tuition for THIS fall. I cannot see a way to pay for it this semester. All based on h's past earnings so she won't qualify for aid, and from what I can see, no one officially cares that he cut her off,

and I'm unemployed. Ideas are welcome.

FWIW D19 is going into her junior year and has made Dean's list all 4 of her semesters and has a good solid support network.
It will kill her to take a year off, but I don't have alternatives yet.

I could not tell her this this week, b/c of the other crap. Oh and it's her birthday.

PS

evidently h is in touch with d19, but they are obviously not close. I know they argue but can't say what about exactly. D19 mentioned to me that she told h he mistreated me and then - whatever....

H did not notice the birthdays of s31 or d28 & they have not spoken in months

None of the kids contacted h on Father's Day. So he's the victim again. Either b/c I "turned them against" him or b/c they are so ungrateful and spoiled.

I suspect his OW would like the money he "retired" from earning...
but I can't even go there. I mean, I hope I'm wrong about her.

I'll say this. Even when I'm fully ready to date, I won't date a man who is separated but not divorced

("what does sep mean to you? And oh, does your wife know you are 'separated'???) and if the guy has no r with his kids,

at this time of my life, that's too much baggage and it's a red flag to me. There are situations wherein kids can be turned but all of them?? And at this age??

H and I won't be married but he will still be their dad.

OH - h told d19 he's "not good at improving relationships"....

can't decide what that^^^ comment means, (it's almost like an insight)

but my reply - vis a vis our children would be

SHOW UP and SPEND TIME with them...it's not complicated

I'm chiming in with no emotional support again:( Sure wish I knew what to say but I still like reading your stuff if that counts!

If you and H maintain separate residences and you take care of D, its possible it may fly on FASFA. You would be considered custodial parent. Its still possible school administrator would want to use H's income but hopefully she would qualify for needs based scholarship based on your income.

My specialty is tax and have done a few FASFAs for clients but its been awhile. Its worth a shot though.

What about H's parents - didn't you say he stands to inherit money? Maybe an appeal to the grandparents about what an excellent job D19 is doing in school, and how H has cut her and you off, they might come through with the money? (Or shame H into doing so?).

Also, are your older kids working now? Might they be in a position to contribute since their educations were paid for?

Dale

thanks I'll try. H's income from 2015 (the last tax forms I have) is too high, not even close. And I'm a joint filer on that one AND the IRS says he under reported, so that's another complaint of HIS...amazingly

no taxes filed for 2016 and I won't sign any settlement till that is filed, again, jointly

But I will see what I can do.

Originally Posted By: kml

What about H's parents - didn't you say he stands to inherit money? Maybe an appeal to the grandparents about what an excellent job D19 is doing in school, and how H has cut her and you off, they might come through with the money? (Or shame H into doing so?).

it's crossed my mind often. I'm not sure what the heck h has told them (but I know he has bad mouthed me far far more than I ever knew, some of which is distorted to an insanely unfair level) and I was fairly close to my FIL"s wife. She told d28 something about h "always talking about Alaska, why is 25 so surprised he wants her to go.." And d28 told her "dad never talks about it at home", which seemed like a surprise to FIL"s wife.

I know h brought OW to meet them in their Mexico mansion. -Feels Like I never existed. That part hurts me a lot. Then again, to my family, h is dead. They recall him, but they dismiss him based on behavior they witnessed themselves.

Grandparents love our kids, & I THINK they loved me, and my kids are FIL"s only grandchildren. BTW he's a hard working self made but also selfish man, to be clear.

Oh & AND h complained loudly and often to them about d19. It's true that D19 gave us a harder time as a kid but to be honest and fair, we gave her a lot less than we gave the other kids in terms of TIME...(& now in terms of money I guess). And d19 noticed.

Just before Father's Day, she told h recently that HE "did not raise" her. H argued the point, but d19 said "Dad, let's do the math...you were 'commuting' or just living elsewhere for almost 9 of the 11 years we lived in house...you were Not there for me" And supposedly this was news to h. He said something like 'that seems like a lot"...

I mean, wtf?

SO BACK to the grandparents, why don't I /awk/tell them? I think I'm afraid. Yep, that's why I'm resisting this. Like somehow I'll be blamed, or ignored. OR b/c h has lied to people about what HE IS paying - which is a lie. And h might be crazy enough to believe it, you know?

According to my L, When the judge ruled that h pay "temporary support in the amount of X" - h turned to his L & said "I'm not paying that the rest of my life!" Dan, h's bff informed me that h told him he'd have to pay X amount forever.."

When I told bff "no, it's temporary and he hasn't paid anyhow"< his bff admitted that "H didn't tell me that part"...

So then I think about having d19 ask and then for her to be refused, OMG it would kill her heart. Ugh. So much rejection.

Also, are your older kids working now? Might they be in a position to contribute since their educations were paid for?

They'd be willing but they are not able. Rather than explaining, suffice to say they're not able to at this point.

I feel bad enough about s31 taking on so much responsibility that ought to be mine or h's.

SO how can I mention this to the grandparents without sounding like I'm b1tching about h? Remember that h and I were on TV 14 months ago with a "wonderful m", which is the m I thought I was in...(freaking idiot, but I'll bash myself on that more later).

what about me saying (I knowingly say more than I should so you guys can edit)
this?

"Dear inlaws,

I'm Not sure what h has told you about our divorce but we obviously have very different narratives about our m. I'm baffled at some of the comments he has made to our children, b/c they are simply untrue & our children know this.

In any event, I thought you should know that h has cut D19 off of tuition, and is not in contact with our other children. This is not because of anything I have said or done, regardless of what h believes, tells himself, or says to others. He chose not to acknowledge their birthdays and he chose not to see them on his own and he chose not to be an involved father for a decade now. That's all separate from his treatment of me.

I hope the r's between them changes. FYI d19 is happier at college than anywhere before. She has made the Dean's list all 4 of her semesters. She has a good support system there.

H's income is used to determine financial aid and thus, d19 does not qualify even with her grades.

H told d19 that it is my fault he is cutting her off. This is both false & grossly unfair.

In case h has misinformed you, he's Not paying what the court ordered & h never has. H claims I had nothing to do with his career achievements or present earning capacity, but that somehow my professional resume & earning capacity "easily exceeds" his.

He has fought every single part of the most reasonable offers & his "negotiation strategy" seems to be to a scorch & burn, punish all family members for not validating his poor choices.

I can no longer help h with the illusion that he's a family man.

In any case, I thought you'd want to know that he's doing this to d19.

You are my children's only grandparents and I hope their relationships with you continues to be the source of good family memories that it has been for them and me.

Love, 25"

Below is what I WANT to say but a lot more calmly...

H has inflicted tremendous pain on the 4 people who loved him the most. H has betrayed me in every way a h can betray a w and is now betraying our youngest, most damaged child.

The wedge he has driven between himself, me and our kids, is exclusively a byproduct of his long term deceit, terribly nasty treatment and abandonment of us, and his utter lack of self awareness.

Due to h's demand that everyone -[i] even those who know ME, validate his choices and his very public flaunting of his "happiness" - no matter how cruelly handled, our children see him a in very bad light. This infuriates h so much that he punishes all of us. Hence the financial stoppage.

That is going to eventually sadden h b/c he will have no descendants, OR it won't sadden him b/c he lacks empathy at a cellular level.

Besides, In his NEW replacement family h will spend time and your wealth, and h will be hailed in that world.

Life ain't fair.

Signed, the bitter scorned stbxw. "
[/i]

So, guess this^^ won't help?

New thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2748844#Post2748844