Continuing my first topic:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2735161&page=11I think you should go with your gut. Oh, I didn't realize you had some information. Why don't you send that via email and I can include it in my thought process. Something like that. I think you handled it great on the thinking about it. I have learned to do the same with my H because he never tells me anything and I also like to give it back a little. It is interesting watching him have to be the one to push the agenda now.
Well, just now I got a notice from my budget monitoring software that it can no longer access the joint account, so apparently he changed the password on it or closed the account. There was no money left, but it was my only route to the mortgage, since it is through that bank and I have no other accounts with them.
This may be all he wants to tell me. Or my cynical side says that perhaps this is my punishment for not doing what he wants me to do.
I do know that he wants to feel in control and like he can have me if he wants me. I've always been the mature steady one and he has never had to doubt my love for him. I think he never thought I'd move out, but I did. He'd never admit that bothered him, but I don't understand why he keeps wanting to talk/meet me.
My gut says several things right now and I'd like to hear from the vets.
While I want to DB, I don't know how it would work, honestly. With the hostile ex and the kids, the only way to progress our relationship on our terms involved us getting our own place.
The ex lived down the street from him, and when he asked me to move in with him, I told him that my boundary was that we needed to find a place to move that was away from her. She was constantly pushing boundaries and showing up and walking by, and she is not a nice person. I said we would need to find a new place within a year, and we did.
By selling the home that we bought together (across town from the awful ex), he is going to move back in her neighborhood and there is zero chance I'm moving back in to that awful place where I have to feel at her mercy.
Salvaging the R would mean living separately until the kids were grown, and what sort of R is that? I'd have to settle in every way possible.
I don't know. I'm getting off topic. Do I meet him or no? I don't feel like I want to, because I think it's just for him to feel in control of me/get a dose of Cadence.
"I don't feel like I want to".
That's your answer. Listen to, and trust, yourself. Hard to do after we've been shattered, but so important to the Reboot we all have to go through.
Hey girl,
Even though you got off topic a bit, I want to address that part first. I TOTALLY get what you are feeling about him/both of you moving back to the old neighborhood with her nearby. I feel like his ex is a clone of my H's ex, all the way down to the "not a nice person". She, too, has never remarried, and actually came on to him within the last few months (he doesn't know that I know this)- after hearing that we were "working through some things." She'd love nothing more than to see this marriage fail. And I'm not mind reading. She has flat out said that over and over. To further complicate things, the job that we moved up north for is one that her father was responsible for us getting. So she's tried to use that also, in her quest for control over H. So far, he's stood his ground. I have never worried about his going back to her, b/c I know how he was treated for the years in that marriage, and I believe, as much as anyone can know another's heart, that she would be the last person he would choose to be with. That said, it's frustrating to watch her try to manipulate him by using that job connection, not to mention the two children they have together. So yes, I get that, totally. I think what I would tell myself if I were in your situation, is- if he wanted to reconcile, he would steer clear of her neighborhood. He may pretend he doesn't see her influence in his daily life, but I think men know. Sometimes I think it's easier for them to pretend they don't. I'd stick to my gut on that one and go nowhere near that neighborhood.
As for the meeting~ are you strong enough at this point to meet with him, with no expectations of R? It's one thing to be strong through email, phone, etc., but face to face may be a little harder. If you are, and want to see him, then go.
However! If you're not, or you're not sure, then go with the advice above and buy yourself a little more time. You don't sound sure to me, but it's sometimes hard to read from just posts. The last thing I want to see you do is meet him, and crumble. You've worked too hard to claw your way to the emotional place you are now, and I don't want him to have the power to make that crash for you. On the other hand, if he is missing you, then that would be a good thing. But is he is, and you don't meet right now, he won't just stop missing you. So don't put a time line on it or think, this may be my last chance..... Give yourself time until you're sure you can handle the outcome of the meeting and be fine with it.
Either way, we've got your back! (((((Cadence)))))
Well, folks, I just left the office with a friend/colleague while she bought breakfast and returned to yet another voicemail on my work phone.
He had a nice soft tone to his voice and said he hadn't heard back from me, and "as you know" he can't carry the house, and he wonders if I'll meet him to discuss what I think is fair.
What the heck? Just yesterday I told him I wanted more time and now he's calling me. At work.
I feel really angry. Where was his concern when I was losing my home? Where was his concern about his finances when I warned him of this very situation?
But no, what was most important to him was to make it as acrimonious as possible (to which I did not bite) in order to end it. If he'd had even a tiny bit of logic/reasonableness back then, he couldn't have ended it, because it would have ruined his narrative.
This call coupled with him changing the password on the joint account makes me feel like he's hoping to control me. At the same time, it does tug on my heartstrings. I hurt for him. I miss him. But everything has changed, due to his own choices, and I have to worry about ME.
Cadence,
This may not be what you want to hear, but I'm reading this "soft, kind voice mail" thing as- the cold, selfish attitude did not produce the results I wanted, and now I have these bills staring me in the face that I did not think about in my haste to end this relationship.... so now let's see if kindness will work on her to help get these practical matters taken care of. It smells like manipulation. I'd be very careful here and let your brain look out for you in this part of the situation, not your heart. Miss him in private. But be strong in real time. Don't be talked into a financial situation that will be damaging to you, just b/c you don't want to see him hurt. He didn't guard your heart, so don't be the gatekeeper for his wallet. He made his bed......
Leahsue, that's exactly how I'm feeling.
I am really angry right now. I want to lash out at him. He's trying to guilt trip me and it is coming up upon 4 months since he ripped the rug right out from under my feet and had zero empathy for me.
Wow, I am in exactly the same place with mine on the house thing (he wants me to sell and move near him and I don't want to) and Leah's post just whacked me on the head about his sudden turn of "niceness."
I am SO angry. I want to scream.
Essentially he wants me to feel bad for him, when he's refused any empathy for me for months.
This was what he needed. If he made it anything less than acrimonious and hateful, it all fell apart. And now he's feeling the impact of his choices and he wants to guilt trip me?
That's right, girl. Let your anger carry you right now. Sometimes anger makes us stronger and makes it easier to truly begin to detach. You got this.
I'm going through the exact same thing, Cadence. It's so wrong.
Cadence,
I agree with Leah, good thing you are mad. But, what are you mad about? This guy has already shown you that he is selfish and that your feelings do not matter to him right now. Sounds like the status quo to me.
Are you concerned that if you let go of the house that is it forever? Even these things that feel big and life changing are not irreversible. Read Thornton's stories at the end of 180's thread about the definitive steps his wife took.
OwnIt,
No, it's not that. I'm just trying to figure out what is fair, while not being influenced by someone who was a total uncaring jerk to me.
To him, I have been unwavering in my love, and I feel that he is now trying to appeal to emotions has no business appealing to. Just yesterday I asked him for time (via email) and today he's calling my work line. So I feel like he is crossing boundaries (both in not allowing me time and in calling me at work) and isn't listening to me.
He ripped the rug out from under me. My home, my security, and the family that was to be mine: all gone in an instant per his hand. He didn't care what that did to me. (I don't want to give too many details away, but my career is very challenging and I'm in a full-time grad program and this semester was a bad one and ruined my 4.0 GPA.)
I'm going through a depressive period right now and I'm in no shape to be making decisions so this isn't helping. And that makes me mad.
Anyone could have seen this setting up from a mile away, but him. And now he's seemingly shocked and is looking to me to fix it for him at the expense to myself. That also makes me mad.
Hi Cadence,
You are so smart to recognize that he is changing his tone in order to get a different response from you. He has noticed that his previous approach didn't work so it is time to do something different.
Knowing what to do and what not to do at this point is crucial. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Journaling
I have not responded to him, mainly out of avoidance and taking this day by day.
My mother just called me, because he called her this morning. He was trying to get her to join his side, and get her to talk some sense into me.
He was trying to find out where I was living. He tried to present all of this (breakup, house sale) as something he'd thought through, but the very fact that he's so out of control right now betrays his public relations effort.
I really don't know what to say or do. I think he's in crisis (I've suspected an MLC), but maybe that's where he needs to be. My mother described his voice as shaky at times.
In the meantime, I am angry and frustrated. I am typing out a response to him that I won't send, just to get my feelings out.
I'm having a hard time not feeling bad for him, but I guess I need to work on my detachment.
Oh, and one more thing. My mother told me at the end of the call, he referenced how she must feel about this whole thing.
She told him "No, do you know how I feel? It can be summed up in just one word: sad. All of this is so sad."
Journaling
I haven't update in awhile. I just haven't felt up to it.
H has finally accepted that I wouldn't meet with him. He called me and I didn't respond. I fully believe that he made decisions to end things envisioning that we'd still have togetherness via conversations about the house, and I'd be a devoted back up plan for him. Because that's Cadence, reliable, steadfast in her love, and thus disposable.
He called my mother, and tried to find out where I am living. He wanted to know if I was back in my condo, which, hello, I've told him repeatedly I was getting an apartment. The man is so strange; I wonder if he believes I've moved out yet? The whole "believe nothing they say and half of what they do" for him seems to be "believe nothing she says and nothing she does". He's clearly still out of it.
He told my mother again that this ended because we grew apart. Oh, yes. No one's fault, really. How socially acceptable of him. And the growing apart really reflects that he doesn't know where I live and the amount of anger he was spewing in my direction. Also, a few months of mostly the silent treatment (his choice) does tend to create a distance, yes.
He told her that I must have been so "shocked" when he broke the news of us growing apart. LOL.
He was wondering why I wasn't responding to him and she reminded him that I have had a lawyer and that I probably don't have much trust in him any longer, so I probably would like negotiation to happen between lawyers. He said he was hoping we could avoid that because he was concerned about my finances. (... Um, yeah, he hasn't had any empathy toward me since January 22nd, when he got so angry and kicked down a door.)
He asked her how she felt about all of what had happened and she said "one word: sad."
I called a DB coach, and it was wonderful. The suggested action was to ask H to meet and listen and validate.
And I'm struggling. I would love to do that, but the reality is that H has some deep issues that are going to sabotage any relationship until he deals with them. So I'm not sure if it's healthy for me to do what the coach suggests.
I would love him back more than anything, but this being the second time, I see the futility. He'd just end up doing the same thing in 2019, since he seems to implode every 2 - 2.5 years. So I'd love him back healthy and having dealt with his struggles with women (which came from his dysfunction mother, who seems to be a narcissist and made him into her emotional partner), but I'm not sure he'd find the courage to approach those issues until he hit a crisis point. And I don't see how he'd get to one with me being back in touch...
I also feel like meeting with him would take away his fears that I'm gone and allow him reassurance that I'm willing to serve as plan B. Just because I'd be showing up and seeing him.
Just something I'm thinking about. I don't know. I'm very clearly avoiding it. I'd love any input from others.
I have a new IC and I had my second session with her. I'm still not sure if she's a match for me, but I'll give it some more sessions to see.
Last night, I was out with some friends and I made myself stay in the moment and enjoy it. And I did.
I faced a fear. A guy I haven't seen much since the stuff went down with H was there and he asked me about H and his kids. I had to tell him that I didn't know how they were because I'd moved out and we no longer spoke.
He was sad for me. He's a strange guy, and longs for commitment but throws it out when he has it. He's wanted a kid and a wife for years, and he made bad choices and recently rushed into it with another woman. Their baby is 6 months old. Their relationship is 6 months + 9 months + 1 month. They did not waste any time on babymaking!
He and I have always had some palpable chemistry, but when I was single I made a point to stay away because I knew if I fell for him he'd run like the wind. He hugged me goodbye and whispered in my ear that he was so sorry that "he missed the boat" with me.
...WTF? He's there with his wife and says that to me? I made the right choice in keeping my distance.
All the (straight and very committed/married to my female friends) men there last night all shook their heads and kept saying things like "&%$# that guy" and "he doesn't deserve you" and "he's going to wake up one day and realize how badly he messed up." They kept repeating it to me.
It's all sweet to hear. It's also bittersweet, because they're either wonderful guys already snapped up by my equally wonderful friends, or somewhat of a mess like the "missed the boat" guy.
If these guys can feel so much for me and see my worth, why can't I find that in a single healthy one? (I'm not actively looking now, it's just something I'm wondering about myself.)
Overall, I'm feeling good. I faced a milestone birthday. I was lonely on the actual day, though my dad came up over the weekend and took me to dinner. And I got some nice texts and emails but no friends offered to spend that evening with me. Oh well. I took it easy instead. I recognized that it hurt, especially considering the vacations H and I had taken for my birthday the past few years.
Now that the day itself is over, I feel a great sense of relief. I've started to thrive a bit. I'm not missing him much, lately. I think I've officially found myself again, and it feels wonderful. Now onto a better diet to lose those few "eating my feelings" pounds I gained! Maybe after that, I'll start thinking about dipping my toe into the dating pool.
Hey girlfriend,
Just checking in with you. How are things going? With lawyer/lawyers, with WAS, with apartment, with job, but mostly, with Cadence?
Hi Leah.
I'm okay. Traveled home to family for father's day and had some long talks with my mother.
I learned that during H's call to my mother, he acted as if my moving out was his idea. Meaning he was just so great and mature that he could let me go and free me from the bills, because we "grew apart" and I was clearly "shocked" to hear that we'd "grown apart."
As if the "shock" and "growing apart" stuff wasn't annoying enough, I was so darn proud of myself for moving out. (In my situation it made sense. He went from a kind sweet guy to emotionally abusive. He had two kids, I had zero kids. I had to be the one to go. He was purposefully excluding me.) I told him that I had to go and I couldn't pay bills in two places, so he'd be on his own once I left. He hesitantly agreed.
His version of leaving me seemed to involve me staying and living with him and his kids while he excluded me and until the house sold, at which time he'd move out while experiencing minimal consequences. Yeah, no. The fantastical thinking of a childlike MLCer is the only thing I can think of as to why he thought I'd do that.
So I left, and I'm proud of myself, because I had to focus on me. I had work and grad school and it was just a really bad environment. And he is now presenting it as his choice, one born of maturity and enlightenment.
I'll remind anyone reading this that a week before BD he - out of the blue - told me that he not only loved me, but cherished me.
So, I don't know what to think. On one hand, I know he has to have publicly acceptable explanations, but I'm finding them hurtful. It feels like one more thing he's taking away.
It's been almost two weeks with no lawyer stuff. He has one too, now. I respond when I hear something about the house from my lawyer, but otherwise I just leave it. He wanted this, so he can drive.
Unfortunately, in these stretches, my mind wanders and it makes me have hope that maybe he's realizing he didn't make great decisions. Unfortunately, as soon as this really takes hold, I'll usually get a call from my lawyer!
So, hanging in there. My hair is falling out from stress. This is a side effect that I hate. I lose up to a third of it beginning about three months after the event that caused me sorrow and shock. And clumps are starting to fall out into my hands and it feels like another defeat.
On the GAL front, I'm starting my diet to lose a few pounds I've put on since leaving. I'm starting a new exercise program. I enjoy male attention, but limit it to husbands/boyfriends in my friend group. It's good for my ego to keep hearing "Darn it, Cadence. He's an idiot. He's going to wake up one day and realize he let something special go."
Also, a newly married guy friend heard my news and whispered in my ear that he was "so sorry to miss the boat" with me. Meaning dating me when I was single. His wife was two feet away. I had a different reaction, considering he is capable of such smarminess - thank goodness he missed the boat with me! He's not a good person.
I'm also refocusing on grad school. I'm starting a writing group with some of my classmates to try to get my research done and graduate on my timeline.
It's all about me me me. I'm going to up how attractive I feel - as much as I can with my hair falling out from the stress of heartbreak - and graduate, and be the best I can be. I miss him, but I feel like I've made strides toward detachment, and I can clearly see my life without him, so things feel a little easier.
Great job on everything, Cadence! I'm glad you checked back in, and also thank you for the long, insightful post on my thread. I still find it hard to believe you aren't a shrink.
And a very good one, I might add.
I'm so sorry about your hair loss. That really bites, at a time when you need to be feeling good vibes about yourself. Have you been on the anxiety meds long enough for that to possibly help turn that around?
I took your advice and have a dr. app in the morning to see about some anxiety meds for myself. I think it will help me keep my edges a little smoother these next few weeks. Hopefully my GP won't be stingy. There's so much abuse these days, I know they have to be careful. I did to to a psychologist back in January because all I could do was cry, and was getting NO sleep. He put me on a tranquilizer that knocked me the cra$ out, but left me hung over when I could finally wake up. I still have 90% left in the bottle. Who can function like that? I need to be the Alive Living, not the Walking Dead.
Leah, you are not a victim!
Cadence, you are not a victim!
Now both of you get that strong, confident, beautiful woman back up and kick some a$$.
So I'd love him back healthy and having dealt with his struggles with women (which came from his dysfunction mother, who seems to be a narcissist and made him into her emotional partner)
cadence, I would love to get your thoughts on this as one of my biggest issues in my M was that my W did this with my son, or at least I believed it to be so, and would love to understand it further. But to not take over your thread, discuss it on my thread. i'll put some information on my particular scenario in my sitch soon.
So I'd love him back healthy and having dealt with his struggles with women (which came from his dysfunction mother, who seems to be a narcissist and made him into her emotional partner)
cadence, I would love to get your thoughts on this as one of my biggest issues in my M was that my W did this with my son, or at least I believed it to be so, and would love to understand it further. But to not take over your thread, discuss it on my thread. i'll put some information on my particular scenario in my sitch soon.
I started noticing it from little things, like when I wanted to go out to eat, I would ask her if she wanted to go to X restaurant, she would she doesn’t care, then ask S if he wanted to go and he would say no, she’d ask him where he wanted to go then say let’s go there. It wasn’t long before I started to realize that it wasn’t just every now and then, it was almost every time I would suggest going out, unless son did want to go there.
Then there were times we would be out doing things with family, and for whatever reason split up into different groups, and W would go wherever S went. There were times that I would tell her that I would like her to come with me and sometimes she would, but there would be attitude that came along too.
If out at a movie with W and S, she would generally sit in the middle and she would consistently lean towards him and make comments about the movie, and when I would make one to her she would just lean to son and say it to him.
I know these are little things, but I’m having a hard time explaining how/why I began to feel that my wife was more emotionally connected to my S than to me. There were several times that I sat her down and explained to her that I felt she was putting love for son ahead of me and that it was very frustrating to me… That I loved son too, but I didn’t think she should focus on him to the point it was to my detriment. And these conversations were during good times of our M, I didn’t feel neglected in our M as a whole, but I felt it when doing things with son (like his desires were more important than mine, or even hers).
Towards the end of our M (when things got complacent in M), I actually said to her that I guess I just have to wait until son goes away to college to get my W back, because by that time I just couldn’t compete with him for her attention… Nothing against my son, he wasn't competing with me, most of the time he wouldn’t even like all the attention she would give him, but I feel like she had used him as her emotional partner.
Is turning children into emotional partners a thing? Is there a name for it, or any resources that you would know of that I could read into it? I realize my examples are weak and not so unnormal, but I DO know that I felt like my W was emotionally attached to my S and not me.. and not sure if it's pertinent, but I strongly believe she's Narcissistic, she turns everything about her, even my sons diabetes.
oops, I thought I had my thread open, sorry about that.
Great job on everything, Cadence!
Thanks Leah!
Have you been on the anxiety meds long enough for that to possibly help turn that around?
No. Unfortunately the hair loss happens 3 months after extreme stress or grief. It takes three months because something happens to the subset of hairs that are in a particular growth phase. So it can be a one time thing and that's it - the hair is going to start falling out 3 months later. I've been through it a few times now (once due to H's leaving in 2014) so at least I know how it goes and what to expect. But I am really angry that it just started all getting back to its' normal thickness throughout the entire length from the last time in 2014. I may cut it into a long bob or something just to make it less stringy.
And the anxiety meds are occasional use only, so it unfortunately can't help me.
Hopefully my GP won't be stingy. There's so much abuse these days, I know they have to be careful.
I get 10 at a time. S/he might be okay letting you try and that would last you through H's visit. You might not need them every day and I'd make sure to try one out before he's there to see how you react to them.
They definitely are not tranquilizers. They just make life easier to handle. Some people get a little sleepy on them, but I don't.
I swear I don't work for a drug company
No prob Coconut. I can copy it over there into a quote and then respond.
Journaling
I had IC today. It was apparent that I've made a ton of progress in the past week. I'm really focused on me and am shifting my priorities to making my life the best it can be.
I have started my diet and I'm looking forward to slimming down and feeling better in my clothes and body. I want to feel good about how I look, especially if I start to put my feet in the dating pool in a few more months.
I've been bleaching my teeth at home. Funny how much of a difference that makes.
I told my IC my exercise goals and asked her to hold me accountable at our next appointment for them, as I try to start forming new habits. Ones that require me to get up extra early, and I am not a morning person, y'all.
I had a hair appointment today. I got some cut off, and will be going back in 4 weeks to get more cut off. I'm going to end up with a long wavy bob, which will hopefully hold up better as my hair continues to fall out over the coming months. I love my long hair, but I've been through this before and it takes forever to grow back in.
I am also changing my hair color color to be a little more low-maintenance and make it easier to be out in the sun without worrying about it fading. H really liked the color I had it. It was his favorite of all the colors. Well, I'm not keeping it the same color for him anymore because he left me! I also, for the first time in my life, have to think about grey roots. I'm thankful that my skin looks youthful for my age (if I do say so myself), but my hair is a different story!
For grad school, I'm entering a period where I have to be self-motivated, and so I am organizing a writing group with some classmates to keep us accountable and have deadlines. Motivation is very hard to find when your entire life got turned upside down and it was out of your control and you lost your home and (what was to be) your family.
For work, I'm finding I'm able to focus better lately. Our new hire is this very sweet genuine woman, and it feels like we're forming a good friendship. Hopefully it continues that way.
Now the yucky stuff:
It's been two weeks since I or my lawyer have heard anything from H or his lawyer. This is unusual. He is the one in a rush to get the house on the market this summer, not me.
My lawyer said he'd been thinking it over and thought I should just ask for H to pay me a sum up front (still TBD about what I think is fair - I can't seem to decide) and then wash my hands of it.
I can't help but feel H's silence is bait. I know him. He's wrestling with something, which may just be that reality of what he's doing to his financials is hitting him. Also probably the fact that he's lost the feeling that he's able to control me, and his ego likely has taken a hit that I'm not chasing him like he anticipated.
It's bait. He wants me to contact him and ask him what's going on. And this is so hard, because I know that at least a small part of it is him missing me.
I did a session of DB coaching and it was truly amazing. However, the action step coming out of it was that I'd ask H to meet to talk about the house and I'd sit there and have PMA and validate. And... I just can't push myself to do it.
I know H, and he is wrestling with family of origin issues about women that all got projected onto me. As such, he forgot that I'm awesome and have dignity and integrity, and he made all of his plans to sell the house out from under me based on an idea that I'd be his Plan B. Surely I'd be begging and in frequent contact. But that hasn't panned out because, well, I have self-esteem?
He seemed to confuse my stability and consistent love for him as my being pathetic. He thought that I thought I couldn't live without him. He was wrong.
Doing what the coach recommends to me makes me feel like he will have confirmed those things for himself. "Aha!" he'll say. "It took longer than I thought, but I knew she'd come around and chase me."
He is a major distancer. I used to - in my younger days - be a major pursuer, but in recent years I am able to control my actions and choices. Sometimes my emotions don't match up, but I figure as long as I'm working on that, I'll get there some day. And even though I wasn't a big pursuer (I gave him more space that he seemed to want), his ex-wife was. As I said before, she was harassing him on multiple fronts. She didn't stop. She even had their daughter harassing him on her behalf, which was extra painful for him. So I think that even though I wasn't the pursuer, pursuit was happening and my H had some sort of a breakdown and began hardcore distancing.
Meanwhile, I don't think any real change has taken place with him. I'm fairly certain he probably found another woman to date and distract him. I'm fairly certain that he had her over to the house, to feel like an extra "FU" to Cadence. He needs time to be alone and for a crisis state to arrive before he will ever consider that he is depressed and that his unhappiness is from inside of himself.
I also don't think I'd be doing it other than to try to get him back, or start the slow road, and I'm just not sure that's a good idea right now. Not for him, but for me. I cannot be happy with him until he addresses his issues, otherwise he just turns them on me.
I felt ashamed to admit that I'd talked to a DB coach and didn't follow the recommendation. So I held back that information. And maybe I'm not following it because I'm a big chicken or because I don't feel good about how I look right now.
Who knows? With that successfully confessed, I'm going to go grocery shopping. I'm going to a party at a coworker's house tomorrow evening and need to pick up some hostess gifts/munchies.
Hey girl,
Just wanted you to know I saw my GP this morning and he wrote me a script for Xanax, 30 w/2 refills...... so he wasn't stingy at all. Also he said, Hey if your marriage doesn't work out, we'll find you a sugar Daddy and get you set up for life. After all the serious talking I've been doing and getting, it was nice for someone to actually JOKE about it. Then he just laughed and laughed at himself. He's a mess.
Also I took your advice and went back and read Train's whole thread. She is so inspiring. And also a great writer. I can see why she was wildly successful in her career pre-babies. Kudos to you, Train!
OMG, I love your doctor. That's hilarious.
... Is he single?
Yes! Xanax! Just be careful with alcohol - that and Xanax don't mix well. Also take it a few times so you can get used to it before you see H.
I don't feel much different when I take mine, but life is just a heck of a lot less stressful.
Yeah, I'm kind of just chillin', thinking it's all good. LOL.
You don't want my GP. He is so so sweet, but been married 35 years. And still married.
He did call out to me as I left the exam room though," hey, you may soon have freedom, and if I'm honest, I envy that."
Kind of made me stop and think about freedom. Maybe not such a bad thing after all.
Journaling
I had IC today. It was apparent that I've made a ton of progress in the past week. I'm really focused on me and am shifting my priorities to making my life the best it can be......
I loved this entire post of yours! You're putting the focus on YOU, you're working to spruce up your appearance and attitude, you're setting goals for yourself, you're leaving H to sort his stuff out on his own. Well done, you are doing great!
I loved this entire post of yours! You're putting the focus on YOU, you're working to spruce up your appearance and attitude, you're setting goals for yourself, you're leaving H to sort his stuff out on his own. Well done, you are doing great!
Thanks!
And now a low on the roller-coaster. I admit it, the lull in hearing from my lawyer who heard from his lawyer was allowing my hopes up. It had been two weeks. I thought that maybe he was stuck and struggling.
Nope. Just got a message from my lawyer stating that his lawyer has been nagging him all week. Apparently H likes his lawyers like he likes his ex-wives...
So, ouch. This is all still really happening.
I also accidentally found a video of H on my phone. I was flipping through and didn't see what it was. It was from September, with him sitting with my dog in his lap, tracing small circles on her head and my dog loving every minute of it and struggling to keep her eyes open.
That hurt. Where in the world did that peace and caring go?
I felt attracted to him seeing the video. I talked myself down and was better, but now the naggy lawyer thing means that he's not at all stuck and he's pushing forward.
Oh Cadence, how I wish we could find our way down off that roller-coaster. It's so hard. You think you've gotten to a good place and ready to handle the next whatever, then it comes, bam, and it hurts like a stab wound. I'd give you a hug right now if I could.
I know we can't promote books but let's see if I can hint around at one I'm reading now that I think would be good for you too. ...
H just called and isn't coming Monday. BUT, we had a pleasant conversation. I didn't ask him if he re-scheduled. I just said OK, then can you go ahead and ship those clothes I asked for? Then we talked a while longer for him to walk me through 2 things here at the house that I couldn't figure out how to fix- garage door going down (eye was messed up) and gas grill wouldn't light (tank not attached right) and now both are fixed! We actually laughed a little.
I've made plans for all weekend to stay busy and also on birthday Monday, so it's all good. I wasn't even sad but just for like 15 seconds when he said I can't come Monday. And THAT'S a big improvement. Probably the medicine helped a whole lot with that.
I felt ashamed to admit that I'd talked to a DB coach and didn't follow the recommendation. So I held back that information. And maybe I'm not following it because I'm a big chicken or because I don't feel good about how I look right now.
Hello cadence,
Please don't be so hard on yourself!
Don't be ashamed that you didn't follow the advice of your DB Coach. Whatever the reason, you just weren't ready.
It would be a good idea for you to have another session with your DB Coach. You could regroup and come up with a different strategy/homework. It is ok to tell your coach that you didn't do the homework and why. There are no bad grades like in school
Go ahead and call me at 303-444-7004 and we can look at the schedule and figure out a time that will work best.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Thanks Cristy,
I recognized it was a good suggestion, I just struggle with knowing that unless H deals with the stuff from his past, all it is going to mean is me getting sucked in again.
We do (did?) love each other, but I can't help the major thing that's wrong. I can help the day by day relationship, certainly.
I will think about it!
Journaling
I've been back to doing pretty well. I'm having busy days at work, and I've got a new gal at work who I like a great deal. And I think the feeling is mutual.
I was out on Friday night at an event with coworkers. It took me a long time to make friends, but now there's a select group of people who get together every so often, because we're all nice, giving, and laid-back people.
Then I just took it easy. I did some laundry, cleaning, and things like that. I slept like a rock. My dog who always wakes me up at 6am somehow let me sleep until 12:30 on Saturday. What the? I felt in a time warp for the rest of the day.
Something really jarring happened today.
My small department at work recently moved our office into a brand spankin' new one, off the side of a library. I work at a university and the library is a specialized one. From where I sit, I can see the lobby and entry/exit doors of the library.
I happened to look up from my desk, and who do I see? H's crazy exW. She's on her way out of the library and has her head craned to the side, looking at me.
I really don't know what to say or do. By the time I realized it was her, she was gone.
But I'm really upset. If there was a single solitary bright side to my R crumbling, it was not having to hear about her or see her. She is a strange blend of aggressive and clingy. We were never close. I said but a few words to her over the years, and she mostly treated me like I was invisible.
Also, she has zero business being there. She has the summer off from her work, but she does nothing even tangentially related to the library's focus.
I think the website recently got updated about our move.
I officially feel creeped out. I think she was there to see me. But not to talk to me, just to see me.
Part of me thinks you're reading her mind and assuming her being there is all about YOU...... but knowing what I know about her also makes me think you are exactly right. LOL. And we could BOTH be wrong.
Maybe think about it this way. She may have pretended like you were invisible all those years, but if she was there today being nosy, she gave herself away that you were never invisible to her and way more important than she would want you to know! Take it as a compliment that she was curious enough to make a trip there to "check you out!"
I hope you had your lipstick on.
you're reading her mind and assuming her being there is all about YOU.
It's hard for me to detail how much it makes zero sense for her to be there without giving away too much detail about her or about me.
but knowing what I know about her also makes me think you are exactly right. LOL. And we could BOTH be wrong.
No, we're right. I am so good at reading people, except when they are male and I love them. This woman is a pack of french fries short of a Happy Meal.
She was always walking/stalking by our place when we lived close to her, with her head craned. And she just couldn't leave us alone.
I hope you had your lipstick on. smile smile smile smile
I didn't! And my posture probably wasn't great since I was stressed out and working on something on my computer. But she did get to see my nice big office in our brand new glass and light-filled space!
Journaling, but I'd appreciate any thoughts on this:
So, here we are. Mid-July. There is still no agreement on the house.
H finally got a lawyer after calling my mother toward the end of May and hearing that it wasn't likely that I'd want to work with him one on one. He'd been spewing at me and trying to pick fights before I moved out, and that's not someone I trust to have my interest in mind.
He and his lawyer drafted an agreement with a paltry amount going to me. My lawyer and I rejected it. Then there was a long stretch of nothing happening. His lawyer was, in my lawyer's words, "nagging" him about us putting something together. My lawyer asked me to put together an accounting of all my extra expenses from this, which I did, and asked that he not share it with H or his lawyer. It was simply to identify my bottom line.
I did a great deal of soul searching, trying to figure out what amount I'd feel comfortable with. I didn't want to be vindictive, but I also didn't want to protect H from consequences of his own choices. I wanted it to be about me. So tallying my expenses that came as a result of his decision was incredibly helpful to me. That's what I want - to be reimbursed for the fallout of his unilateral decision.
H wanted to get it on the market as soon as possible. Again, it's July now.
My lawyer got back in touch with me, and wanted to know if I wanted to draw something up. He sent me something where I ask for cash up front in exchange for agreeing to all the terms of (future) sale. It's much more than I want, with the intention of negotiating down.
However, I'm stuck on this thought: How is this MY problem? Why should I be paying for my attorney's time in drafting documents, rather than receiving them from the guy who so desperately wanted to get rid of me and the house?
Obviously, I don't want to drive him to throw his hands up and get the property foreclosed upon. I think that is unlikely, since he has a significant amount invested in it, and I don't. I have a little bit. He has much more on the line than I do.
I really don't want to speculate too much on what is going on. If I had to guess, H is frozen, as he gets when he incurs too much stress. I am guessing the post-Cadence life isn't as breezy and filled with carnal delights with intelligent, sane, and beautiful women. I am guessing he has heard from a select few people "You did what??! But you seemed so happy."
But, I know nothing. He hasn't reached out, and it's not my job to reach out and try to solve this for him. I was always the rational balancing personality when he was mired down in stress (mostly caused by the ex-wife) in the past, and that's not my job anymore, because he fired me.
I am comparing myself to those who stand, who don't file for D and let their S be the one forced to make that call. I am thinking about me. I don't want to draft an agreement and have that on my shoulders when I never wanted any of this in the first place. I don't want to pay the elevated rate for my lawyer to prepare documents. I want to concentrate on work and school, since H's springtime shenanigans meant that I lost my 4.0 GPA (I'm down to 3.97 now, and I'm mad as heck about it).
So, folks, how is this my problem? Am I right to not want to propose any terms, force him to drive the sale if that's what he wanted so badly, and do nothing other than respond to his proposals?
Cadence:
I am in a similar place to you in some respects. First, you know that real estate has a season and in general it is before school starts. You are getting late in the year. Talk to your realtor and find out how much a sale in a colder time, for e.g. January-March would cost.
If you don't want to sell and move then I don't think you should be paying for the lawyer (and remember I am a lawyer). I was doing ok sitting tight until I decided that I actually want to move. Our house has appreciated a lot and in addition to regular realtor fees and a transfer tax I'd have to pay 25% of proceeds to the IRS if I sell before next summer. Uh, no thanks. Oh yeah, and mine is avoiding the separation contract using every trick in the book (I never saw it, I'll get to it soon, it's not acceptable--but I won't say what exactly I don't like about it).
Therefore, if you don't have any other impediments, and don't want to move, don't push the agreement. Keep in mind though that he could file for the divorce and then you will be paying a lot more to the lawyer.
This all s*cks.
Thank you, OwnIt!
Just some clarifications on my sitch: I am not living in the home. I moved out. H has two kids, and I am just me. He was making it unbearable for me to live there, and given that they are a family and I'm an outsider, I couldn't stay. I did my best to stay sane and calm while there and not give him more ammunition, but he wanted absolutely nothing to do with me. He had plenty of notice that I was going, but as he learned I was serious, he'd say "no one is making you leave".
He put down money on the house. I didn't. I was making payments toward it, and when I told him I was leaving, I told him that I wouldn't be making those payments because I could not afford two places at once.
He had been engaging in some magical thinking, where he thought the house would sell quickly, that he'd incur little financial consequences, and he'd get his "downpayment back." I can't tell you how many times I heard that phrase. This would be selling less than a year after we bought it, and it was a fixer upper. The only way to make money on it would be to make improvements. That was the plan for us to do for the next 5-7 years, until he got angry and simply had to end our relationship and sell the house.
I moved.
He was in a rush to sell, but isn't pushing it forward now. He has much more to lose in this than I do, especially if I pushed for half of the proceeds as we are on the title 50/50. Many in my life tell me to do that, and I just don't think I could be happy with myself if I did.
I got an attorney through my employer's Employee Assistance Program before I moved out. H was acting very irrational, and I was scared. I wanted to protect myself against foreclosure - again, not because I lose much, but my credit would tank.
H always had this vision of us working out the terms of sale, but after how he treated me he was the last person I wanted to trust. I wouldn't meet with him and he had to get his own lawyer.
So that's where I'm coming from. Also, we were not married, just making the plans to make that happen when he decided it all needed to end.
As for maximizing the selling price, that's nothing that I'm concerned about. I plan to ask for a flat fee. As for selling it quickly, I'm not making the payments and I've already moved, so that is also not something that I'm concerned about.
My heart aches through all of this, as it's not easy for me to think of H potentially suffering, but I did all I could to prevent him from getting himself into this mess, but he insisted. So now he's there, in the mess. There is really no reason for me to rush or to pay more to have my lawyer create agreements, right?
Sounds like the only issue you really have is that your name is on the mortgage, correct?
Do you have any other entanglements with him?
If he doesn't pay the mortgage then obviously it will go into foreclosure and assuming there is a loss on the books you will get a credit ding (7-10 years is a long time).
If you aren't planning to move or finance any major consumer debt like a car, then it probably isn't the worst thing in the world.
So what has he hired the lawyer to do? Come after you for 1/2 the mortgage payments or the down payment? Unless you signed some kind of promissory note to him then I don't imagine he has any legal recourse regarding the downpayment.
Interesting situation, but not one that seems to be much that you can do anything about.
Sounds like the only issue you really have is that your name is on the mortgage, correct?
Yes. No other entanglements. We had a joint account for expenses, but it was my paycheck going in there and I took the money out and had my direct deposit changed back to my personal account.
Our agreement was that he was putting down the money and would be helping with out of the ordinary expenses, but I'd be covering the ordinary ones. With our financial situations, this made sense.
We were both earning extra rental income from renting out our properties we owned before moving in together/buying the house. So, aside from his money not being liquid, living there was advancing both of our financial situations. Prior to this, he was living on an overdraft line of checking, since he didn't get paid regularly. The rental income was freedom to him, but I guess he doesn't want that anymore because it would mean being with me.
If you aren't planning to move or finance any major consumer debt like a car, then it probably isn't the worst thing in the world.
I do need to get a car in the near future as mine is pretty old. I am in watch and wait mode on that. I don't want to get one too soon, as I'm paying off a credit card, and I only have outdoor parking next to college students.
So what has he hired the lawyer to do?
It seems like it is to draw up documents/make offers. However, I think the first offer was verbal. And I guess trying to twist things so I'm the one initiating documents and they're reacting, which is what I'm finding massively unfair.
Come after you for 1/2 the mortgage payments or the down payment?
The mortgage payment thing was the reason I got my attorney. I wanted to know what could happen if I moved out and stopped paying. He helped me understand my risk was low, and if anyone could come after me, it would be the lender as part of foreclosure proceedings.
He can't come after me for the down payment, because he made it.
With 50% of the house and nothing in writing about what would happen if it sold, he'd be in deep trouble there if I were feeling vindictive. But that could also open the door to endless litigation, with him suing me.
Unless you signed some kind of promissory note to him then I don't imagine he has any legal recourse regarding the downpayment.
Absolutely nothing in writing. In the time up to closing, I was wondering why he wasn't getting an attorney, but I didn't speak up about it. I assumed it meant he was very committed to me and very sure about our relationship.
My only true risk is foreclosure. If he let it go into foreclosure, he'd lose his money and his credit would be impacted. I just have the credit issue, so that's why I'm not too worried about it.
Thanks for talking through this with me. I'm going to speak to my lawyer today and ask that he make it clear to ex's attorney that they will do the work on this, since he is the one who wanted to get rid of me and sell.
I'm not going to hustle and pay my attorney to draw up agreements. This isn't really my emergency and I don't want the guilt on my shoulders. If he wanted this, then he can send me potential agreements to sign to get it done. I will sign one that I find fair.
I'm trying to stay solely focused on what is most comfortable to me. I am not going out of my way to cause him problems, but my wellbeing and comfort is my focus after he ended the relationship.
I want him to be responsible for cleaning up the mess he's made. It feels insulting that I'd be paying my attorney to produce agreements for a sale I never even wanted. The sale is not a priority for me; my wellbeing, performing well at work, and finishing graduate school to get some magical letters after my name that will open so many doors for me are what count now.
Just got a court summons. It seems H and his lawyer took my "The amount you offered was insufficient. Feel free to make another offer" as a reason to take this to court.
In the paperwork, they included the amount I contributed. None of the offers he sent to me (one where I got nothing, one where I got a few thousand that I could count on one hand) reached the amount I contributed.
I'm in shock and am feeling sick while I wait for my lawyer to call me.
UGH. Just UGH! This makes my blood boil.
Don't you dare let shock paralyze you. Let it kick your behind into a fight.
Like 25 just reiterated to me a few minutes ago, this WILL be the most important document you ever sign. Go to court if that's what it takes.
It's just not fair. (((((cadence))))))
Thanks. It also looks really bad because they included that I moved out and stopped paying.
Which, yeah. I had to. It was him and his kids vs me. He was constantly spewing and making it known I didn't belong. Even my food in the refrigerator was put on one shelf, effectively quarantining them from me.
I'd told him I'd have to go if it continued, and I couldn't pay for two places. He kept it up.
I just feel like I've been forced into a villain role I never wanted, just because I've been enforcing boundaries and sticking up for what treatment I'll accept.
My mood has really plummeted. I feel scared and also incredulous.
There had been long silences in negotiations, and, silly me, I'd started to hope that he was maybe having second thoughts. I knew all along, I shouldn't. But I did. I started thinking that maybe he missed me, and was torn about what to do. And maybe I'd hear from him. I know I did that to myself, and it's hard to admit it, but I definitely did it.
But it's still the same old "I need to be away from you so badly that I'll financially handicap myself to do so, and blame you for all of it."
Sigh. I could really use a boost if anyone's out there. I'm sitting around crying, but what I'm most concerned about is that I'm questioning myself and feeling guilty. And also feeling angry that making me fearful and confused is probably the reaction he wanted, and it's working.
Hi Cadence,
We all have hope, that's why we're here, isn't it?
Not that I want to hold you back, but just because he is doing that doesn't mean he isn't having those feelings somewhere in his messed up mind.
And remember, feelings change. The way he felt a year ago isn't how he feels today, and may not be how he feels tomorrow.
That is why it is so important to make plans for your life without him this way you're a step ahead if he doesn't return.
When you're upset try to think about who he IS right now, you don't want him this way. Remember we were both in this place in 2014. Something has to give, or you'll be here again in 2020...
I believe when they're wayward they push and push and have to act irrationally and get out as quick as possible because they think that's going to be a magic pill and fix everything... I try to remember all the things my dad says to me, even though I hate to admit it, he's normally pretty right. He says when they live this high life and think they're on top of the world they have a much harder and longer fall coming to them.
Just remember this feeling won't last forever, but you already know that. YOu give such great advice to everyone else, I know you KNOW all these things, it's just harder to realize, absorb, and really take in when it's your own sitch.
You've got this!!
What is the cause of action on which he filed and what remedy is he seeking? Is it breach of contract and he is seeking money damages or is it something else?
Do not beat yourself up about hope. We all do this. We don't hear anything and we think they miss us. No, they are scared little children who are not honest about anything and can't behave like civil adults.
If it is breach of contract you have some defenses. He made your performance next to impossible. You could argue that he breached first, that he created a hostile environment for you, that you had to cover by seeking shelter elsewhere. He is the one who upset the apple cart. Not you. You are nobody's victim. You are one of the strongest people on these boards. Do not cower in fear from the actions of a chicken. In a worst case scenario you could defend yourself and explain the hostile environment and why you had to leave.
Thanks, T and OwnIt. I feel unflatteringly needy right now and the support means a great deal.
OwnIt, it is seeking a judge to order the sale of the property and to rule on how to divide proceeds.
We own it 50/50 per the deed. He made the downpayment; I made the monthly payments. Because his breakdown came ~5 months into owning it, he contributed much more than me, though it would have evened out had he not needed to end everything, immediately, out of nowhere.
He has been sending paltry offers (one where I got nothing, one where I got a diminishing percentage based on how long it took to sell, and one where they were giving me a whole 5k.) He and his attorney then seemed to be waiting for me to write up offers, which rubbed me the wrong way in the circumstances. I wasn't going to stand in his way, but I wasn't going to pay to solve the issue he created and sell a house I never wanted to sell.
In the summons, it lists the amount I paid into the home. None of his offers came close, so I'm hoping we can make something of that. Unreasonable offers and then escalating it to court? I will definitely ask for my attorney's fees covered.
Unfortunately I got the notice of the summons around 4:45pm here, and by the time I'd called my lawyer, he was gone for the day. I haven't been able to speak with him about what is admissible, but I do have various things on the hostile environment/emotional distress front.
Like T's H, he is doing all of this to me when I am working full-time and in full-time graduate school earning a terminal degree. And I'm struggling with motivation right when I get to the part where I have to be self-motivated to finish.
You are one of the strongest people on these boards. Do not cower in fear from the actions of a chicken.
Thank you. I am having one of those days when I don't feel that way.
You can do this Cadence. You weren't even challenging the sale of the home so is it worth hiring two sets of lawyers to argue over a little equity in a recently purchased home? I think not. I hope your lawyer is the reasonable sort. Seems like this should resolve relatively quickly. There just isn't enough at stake to battle over it in all likelihood.
You'll feel better when you speak to the lawyer and know your options. Try not to stress and borrow trouble.
You weren't even challenging the sale of the home so is it worth hiring two sets of lawyers to argue over a little equity in a recently purchased home?
Exactly. I have not stood in his way, but apparently my communication that invited them to make another offer was viewed that way. Just another thing to add to the list of the ways Cadence is oppressing him, I guess.
I'm afraid it's a bit more complicated than "a little bit of equity".
His downpayment is at stake and so he contributed more than I did. He took no steps to define how the proceeds of a sale would be split. There is no written nor verbal contract.
He breached our verbal contract that we'd be together and living there for 5-7 years, while I made payments. Our contributions would not have been unequal had he not breached the contract. Though I was not thrilled with him, I saw purchasing the home as a commitment; he didn't. He did not want to try to resolve anything, he just wanted to get away from me and punish me for how he was feeling.
His decision to sell is also taking away rental income from me and made me homeless. My property taxes on the condo I own (but cannot live in) have gone up, as I am not able to claim tax relief for the property. I had to claim it on the house I am not living in. I will be paying this increased rate until next August, at the earliest.
I really can't tell you the WTFness of a man who created a crisis out of thin air, screaming at me about how he needs his "down payment back" less than a year after purchasing a home together with 50/50 ownership. He has thought there was an "undo" button of some sort.
Before I moved out, he tried tricking me by saying things like "You know, it would be a lot easier for you if you wanted to sign the deed over to me. That way you could move and not have to worry about the sale." I told him over my dead body would I sign over the deed but remain on the mortgage. He does not see me as a rightful co-owner. He sees himself as the owner and me as an obstacle.
He's then submitted nothing but laughable offers. (Absolutely nothing, a percentage that diminished the longer the house remained on the market (and his increased), and $5,000 which is less than my contribution.) Just more evidence that I'm nothing and his emotionally abusive ex-wife is his real partner. They were able to D using mediators, but that was probably because he's always wanted to keep her happy with him. Despite all her ridiculous clingy harassments, he'd never let himself be angry with her.
It all came out on me and completely ripped the rug out from under me. These were all his decisions.
Now the summons also states how much I contributed, but they are asking the court to ensure all of his money goes back to him, and if there is anything left over, he and I will split it. He has no concern for the equity I paid into the home. It is also implied that he wants the judge to have me pay his attorney's fees and the costs of selling the home.
So it's a bit more complex. I've always been open to resolving it outside of court (but with my L, because H is not rational and remains angry and punishing in his attitude), but he's not given me anything to work with other than trying to ensure he is made whole, and I am not, even though this was all his doing. If he were rational and understood that the whole "I bought this house for you and you failed to keep me happy 24/7, so I am taking it all back" isn't based on real life, then we could work it out.
I don't know. It will be interesting to see what my attorney says we can submit. It may get ugly as I do have some evidence about the hostile environment he created. I also may be able to get a statement from our MC, who witnessed his anger and total refusal to work on the R, and was also witness to my decision that I'd move out and I'd have to stop contributing. H was well aware of that and did not object.
I really wish I didn't get this bomb dropped on me at 4:50pm yesterday, so I didn't get to speak with my attorney. I'm circling around and around, worried that the flat facts of the case make it look like I left and was after his money, and wondering how much of the actual story will be admissible.
I do not recognize this man. I'm an intuitive person, and he would not have been able to hide this anger and rage from me for years. He takes emotional abuse from his mother, ex-wife, and his kids (who unknowingly imitate their mother to push back when he asks them to do something) and doesn't get angry or hold them responsible. But me, who treated him the best, and wanted him to want to improve his life with the crazies, got a crazy in return. Prior to that he was kind, loving, and affectionate.
The anger and hatred were really something else, and I'm dismayed to see it's likely still there, with his lingering belief that he can just take it all back and, if he can't, it's because I'm standing in his way. He most likely thinks I am preventing the sale and I'm doing it because I want to R, so he's still got an eye toward preventing me from controlling him in that way (I'm not) and punishing me accordingly.
Sorry for the long vent. I woke up with puffy eyes, but have shifted toward more angry than sad.
I know weekends are low traffic here, but I could really use some opinions if anyone is reading.
Spoke to my L yesterday. My options are: respond to their claims (L said I'd deny all of them) and then counterfile, where I get to tell my version of events, OR to try to respond awkwardly to their last paltry offer with a dollar amount.
My L assures me that if it goes to court, all of the evidence I have that this was all his choice, and he created a hostile environment will be admissible. L laughed at their claim that I'd left and stopped paying the mortgage, saying "They neglected to mention that he's LIVING THERE", so that makes me feel better.
He tells me court will be expensive. But if I counterfile, it's possible that could cause them to make me an offer.
I'm not sure what to do, here.
Part of me is craving the idea that I'd be heard if I counter-filed. He'd have to read my story.
I am under no impression that it would impact him, but he is so self-focused and driven to make sure that I'm the only one who is impacted negatively by his own choices that it is absurd. His claims seem to make sure he recovers every dollar he spent, and though he has my contributions included after he lists what he contributed, he then asks the judge to award him what he spent in full, and if there is anything left over, to split it between us. He also seems to imply he wants the court to ask me to pay his attorney's fees, as well as the costs to sell the home.
Even if I did think that his proposal was fair, there won't be anything left over when the house was sold. We bought a fixer upper and it was on the market for a long time. We planned to live there for 5-7 years and make upgrades a little bit at a time.
So I could respond, explaining my side of things, and include the "offers" he made where he tried to trick me into signing away my interest in the property, as well as his other offers, none of which approach the amount that I contributed. I can, hopefully, make it clear that the short duration of home ownership was his choice, that he ended the relationship, and seems to want only me to bear the financial costs of the choices he made.
So he's still focused on punishing me and I'm still not sure why. It's clear he's still irrational and angry.
I know I can't say for sure, but I am more certain this is a MLC. He was always a kind and sweet man, who loved me a lot but also repressed a great deal of pain. And I think it all emerged, and he decided that I was at fault for how he felt. I think the debt of the house purchase was a trigger for him, though both of us were in better financial shape owning the home than not owning the home, because we also got rental income for our separate properties.
It's clear that the man that I remember is gone, possibly for good, and has been replaced by this irrational punitive person. I'm certain he is still arrogant, thinking that I'm delaying a sale so we can get back together. That's not true. Thinking of that house causes me feelings of trauma; I don't think there's any going back in the short term. In reality, I just want a fair offer.
However, I did enjoy being with him. My family is absolutely shocked, and seemed to be holding onto hope we'd work it out, because they saw how happy I was. So I also want to protect any possibility of, perhaps, someday working through this, if the previous version of him ever returns.
So I also struggle with counterfiling, as I know that one of the reasons he needs to get away from me so badly is to avoid feeling shame. Unfortunately, he was taught by his narc mother that men cannot be angry and still be good people, and he is still holding onto that value very tightly. I believe he sacrificed our relationship because otherwise he'd have to face that he has a great deal of anger, so he has to get rid of the evidence. Whereas I feel his anger is totally justifiable, given how his parents failed him. I don't agree that it is okay for it to be projected onto me, though. Counter-filing would be putting his actions in black and white, thus increasing his shame.
Ugh. I don't know what to do. I don't want to take his money and not sell the home; I just wanted a reasonable offer. Not getting one makes it look like I'm delaying, and I never was.
Cadence, everyone loses in litigation. There is just nothing worth battling for here. My suggestion, have your attorney write a comprehensive letter explaining the flaws in their logic and make your best offer. If there is a settlement push for a dismissal with prejudice (meaning he can't refile and you don't have an adjudication "on your record").
If he still doesn't bite, tell your attorney to hang back and let him burn money proving his case. He's the plaintiff which means he has the burden of proof. Unless you are going to add a new cause of action against him you can deny his claims and put him to his proof without the need to bring your own claim.
You could also push for mediation now or later to try to come to a quick resolution with an impartial. In most jurisdictions it is mandatory to go through some sort of alternative dispute resolution before a trial anyway.
There has to be a basis for an award of attorney fees either based on contract or statute. Has he indicated the source of that?
It's going to be ok. Try not to let this take you down or be the focus of your life. If possible, think of it as a nuisance.
Of course you are the bad guy. He feels empty and broken inside and that must be your fault. It can't possibly be him, right.
Sorry you're having a rough time of it with the legalities Cadence. Looking back I realise I was pretty lucky with how our D unfolded. I think XH was so keen to dash out of the M and start a new life and family with OW, he was pretty reasonable.
However, things didn't start out that way. Initially he wanted us just to agree some kind of simple split and he suggested some figures which (for me) were ludicrously below what a normal settlement was likely to look like. He then got a L himself and became much more reasonable. What seemed to help us was 'normal formulae' in our kind of situation.
Our M was a little too long to be classed as short and in the UK, the norm for that situation is to take total assets, each carve off what you came into the R with, and divide the rest 50/50. We don't have kids together. During the M we did see a big rise in assets (and XH regarded these as 'his') but they got split 50/50 in the end. Ours was a collaborative divorce and reasonably pleasant - mostly through the L's, but with a little direct contact too.
It helped my situation that XH's L was a city L and really expensive. She told him that a contested D could cost up to 60k and he was running scared of high L bills. In the end, I think my L bills were around 5k.
What I would say is try and let go of the need for him to see 'your side' and focus on what would be acceptable to you and bring matters to a reasonable conclusion. Also, it can be good to 'sit' with things for a little while before responding - and posting here for sure is a good idea. At one point, I wanted to cite OW, and I wanted to get the considerable funds he spent on visiting her (long haul) factored in - but I let go of that and I don't regret it.
Good luck with things and you will get to the other side of this, I promise :-)
I spent the weekend thinking about things. As a way to help me process, I wrote a few different documents trying to get down to the logic and whether I had proof of the statements I was making.
I also went to a concert by myself last night. It's an artist I've always loved and had never gotten to see. It was outside, so that was nice. But the tickets were so expensive I couldn't find anyone who wanted to go. I'm glad I went.
Incidentally, the artist has a famous song with my name and the lyrics are about a woman with troubles happening in her life. I remember just looking up at the clouds as he was singing a certain line in that song and thinking "I always seem to identify with this song. When do I just get to be happy?!"
I've told my family about the possibility of court. I've already had offers that they'll come. I've been joking that I might hire a male model to accompany me.
The thing that is stressing me out is that his claims were all facts. "I contributed this much" "She contributed this much" "She moved out and isn't paying". So, OwnIt, when you say let them burn through trying to prove their points, their points are not going to be difficult to prove. They're all true. The case is a giant exercise of omission of all relevant details.
My logic boils down to "Holy cow this was all his choice and why is he trying to unload the financial consequences onto me when it was all his choice?" So my items are a bit less straightforward but no less true.
I've also got evidence of my continued good faith actions and his efforts to trick me into signing my rights to the property away.
I also called our MC, whom we saw for two sessions, since she knows that this was all his choice (he expressed it in counseling. She tried to calm him down and ask him to not make decisions when he's so angry to no avail). I asked if I needed her to write a memo with what she heard, if she could do that and would feel comfortable doing it. I had to leave a voicemail and I'm waiting to hear back.
This doesn't mean I'm going to counter-file, I'm just trying to organize things in my head enough that I know what I'm working with. I think I'm doing some of my attorney's work for him in the process!
Initially he wanted us just to agree some kind of simple split and he suggested some figures which (for me) were ludicrously below what a normal settlement was likely to look like. He then got a L himself and became much more reasonable.
Mine got a L and is still unreasonable. I don't think he ever told his L "by the way, I'm the one who wants out and to force a sale", so the entitlement for me to shoulder the risk he has introduced is still there.
Boy, I messed up my response to OwnIt. Somehow my text ended up in the quotes. Here's how it was supposed to look:
If he still doesn't bite, tell your attorney to hang back and let him burn money proving his case. He's the plaintiff which means he has the burden of proof. Unless you are going to add a new cause of action against him you can deny his claims and put him to his proof without the need to bring your own claim.
The thing that is stressing me out is that his claims were all facts. "I contributed this much" "She contributed this much" "She moved out and isn't paying". So, OwnIt, when you say let them burn through trying to prove their points, their points are not going to be difficult to prove. They're all true. The case is a giant exercise of omission of all relevant details.
My logic boils down to "Holy cow this was all his choice and why is he trying to unload the financial consequences onto me when it was all his choice?" So my items are a bit less straightforward but no less true.
I've also got evidence of my continued good faith actions and his efforts to trick me into signing my rights to the property away.
I also called our MC, whom we saw for two sessions, since she knows that this was all his choice (he expressed it in counseling. She tried to calm him down and ask him to not make decisions when he's so angry to no avail). I asked if I needed her to write a memo with what she heard, if she could do that and would feel comfortable doing it. I had to leave a voicemail and I'm waiting to hear back.
This doesn't mean I'm going to counter-file, I'm just trying to organize things in my head enough that I know what I'm working with. I think I'm doing some of my attorney's work for him in the process!
In a pleading there is normally a fact section, a law section, and a section that applies law to fact.
In an answer, if your jurisdiction has a general denial you can deny generally. If not you have to go point by point and say either admitted or denied.
Somewhere in there is a section that talks about the cause of action (or the claim) he is making against you. There is more to it than I paid this or that. Somewhere he has to be saying we were both jointly obligated on the mortgage, I paid my part, she didn't pay hers, that sort of thing.
Still your lawyer can write a letter and explain the omissions. She couldn't pay her portion because she was forced to move out by his constructive eviction. She had to locate housing elsewhere at a cost of $________. She had to pay movers at a cost of $_____________. At the time of the purchase the parties committed to one another to be in an exclusive relationship and to live together and share the benefits and burdens of the contractual relationship. He unilaterally chose to leave the relationship. But for his actions in leaving the relationship and constructively evicting her by creating a hostile environment, she would not have had to move and locate suitable housing elsewhere. Etc. I think you get my point.
There are ways to deny the basis for a claim without pursuing a counterclaim. These include various defenses. Some examples include:
1. fraud/misrepresentation
2. estoppel
3. unclean hands
4 anticipatory breach/repudiation
5. unconscionability
6. frustration of purpose
7. impossibility/impractability
Thank you, OwnIt! This is very helpful.
Cadence, I could use some of your special brand of word smithy and human insight if you have a minute to look at the end of my thread.
Hey Own, I stopped by your thread late and it looked like you had great feedback from others, so I didn't comment.
Long journal incoming. I'd love any feedback:
I am continuing on my journey. I am trying to get into a daily writing habit so I can finish my schooling and have options to move away from here. I like it here, but I don't love it. I'd been staying because H's kids had a few more years in school and then we planned to move away. Now there's not anything keeping me here except for school.
I have some wonderful friends here. I went and met some of them last night and had a few hours of fun. I'm starting to feel more receptive to the idea of meeting someone new, but I also don't trust my people picker so I'm still focusing on me. I stayed pretty close to my friends all night, but it did seem like some guys were trying to get my attention. Someone did the "tap on shoulder then turn back around" move on me. I'm sure that whomever it was did not reside in an appropriate age range for me so I generally ignored it.
(My IC said that I'd made a ton of progress and I could start dating if I wanted, as long as I didn't jump into anything serious. So far I haven't moved forward on that.)
I'm still GAL. My version of that is getting out and socializing when I'd rather stay isolated. With H it was easy to just do couple things or stay in and let him go out with his friends. I'm continuing my diet and it's paying off; I'm starting to feel really good in my body again. I opted to walk home alone last night rather than catch a ride with someone. (My city is very safe, but of course I'm still cautious.) An all-uphill 15 minute walk at midnight appealed to me. I got a cute new haircut that will help it look fuller; I get stress-related hair loss and this is the second time my hair has fallen out because of H abandoning me out of nowhere.
A friend's husband seems to always give me pep talks when I see him. He's offered to find H and beat him up if I wanted (lol) and I told him to hold off on that. He tells me that I'm a catch and that I need to realize that about myself. And when I'm ready, take it slow in finding someone new. He said rushing can net me a new jerk; taking it slow will help me find someone great.
My IC told me that she was seeing some personality disordered behaviors in H, though of course she can't say one way or another. This is both distressing and a relief for me. Distressing because how did I miss it? Relieving because if it's true, I don't have to have doubts.
I've been reading a book on narcissism, and I do believe some of the behaviors fit H. There was idealization, devaluing, and then discarding happening. I think I threatened his supply when his past choices (marrying his crazy ex and having kids with her when she was so obviously looney tunes) and current choices (passive parenting of his kids) were no longer things he could avoid. There was uncertainty whether his son would graduate from high school, and I think H was realizing his passivity may have hurt his kids.
I think that's the real reason he raged and then I was discarded. I think he also had some sort of breakdown and projected himself onto his son (who was being rejected by his wonderful mother, as H was when he was a child) and became hellbent on protecting his son from women. Not the one who was hurting his son, of course. Just me. Even though I had a good rapport with his son and was trying to build him up, H could only see me as someone who wanted to emotionally hurt his kids. I was the symbol of all things evil-engulfing-female, and wanting to try to work through things also leant me a pathetic and clingy character flaw. (His lack of negotiation with the house tell me I am still all of those things. Sigh.)
I feel bad for H. I think we'd also reached new levels of intimacy and vulnerability and I think he just couldn't tolerate that. He wants a wonderful relationship, but he ultimately doesn't want to take risks. That feels wrong to him. He doesn't want to have to give; I think he's got a fantasy woman in his mind who will be his sexy mommy and fulfill all those things he never got from his mom and have no needs of her own. I had no interest in being anything but an adult partner with obligations outside of the relationship, and I think that wasn't a dynamic he was familiar with. Both times he's left me out of the blue, he has been hyper-focused on whether all of his needs are being met. I go from someone he's put on a pedestal (that I can't possibly live up to given that I'm human) to nothing but an object, and he has no concept that to receive what he wants, he must also give.
I assume he is out trying to locate his ideal sexy mommy now, which hurts, but also makes me chuckle because he's in such a state that he's only going to be attracted to/attract messes. Good luck to him.
He expressed to me so many times that he wanted something different than his crazy family. He used to joke about his parents and how they were terrified of change, and so they stayed in a miserable situation for 50 years. When they had opportunities for improvement, they made excuses to not leave their comfort zone. That's what I represented to him; relief and a way to leave the crazy people behind. But when he got out of his comfort zone, guess what he ran back to? Guess who is turning into his parents by trying so hard to run from them without taking responsibility for his past?
I'm still struck by how he couldn't even explain reasons why he was doing what he was doing. He told me that he was unhappy, but that seemed like rewriting history to fit current feelings. (I know I can't say for sure, but he'd offer up to me how happy he was and how lucky he was to have found me all of the time.) Then it was some darkly humorous "sign" from 5 years ago that he overlooked, which was clearly a red flag about my horribleness as a person. Then it was that we'd simply "grown apart" and the reason I moved out and disappeared was because of how "shocked" i was when he broke the totally normal news to me of how we'd grown apart. (Darn, I hate it when I put a tens-of-thousands of dollars of a downpayment on a house to buy with someone, and then discover 6 months later that we'd simply grown apart.) The very nature of the timing demonstrates that it was a slow and mutual growing apart. Sure H.
I still spend time thinking about him, as you can see, but it's more me trying to make sense of the senseless for my own sake. I want to know what red flags I may have missed. I want to know if he's disordered, but I want to know that for me. My IC says I'm an empath, which I think is true.
Something I can't reconcile with H being a narcissist is that, aside from me, he does not place blame externally. He'd own up and take responsibility, and, frustratingly, he had very little recognition that his ex was horrible. The reason they divorced was because "marriage with kids was hard." He never blamed her, and that's something I'd expect to see from a narcissist. Also, I know and have met some personality disordered folks, and I normally see right through them and feel disgust being around them. I never felt that way about H. Any dysfunction seemed like learned behavior that he could unlearn if he wanted to.
So I still wonder if this is an MLC that brought out narc tendencies/learned behaviors. It seems like being an N would be visible to me, but maybe I'm fooling myself.
He did have a false self he protected fiercely. He liked to think of himself as a "glass half full type of guy" and you should have seen how he'd glow when one of his male friends (always self-absorbed and disasters at relationships) would compliment him on his optimistic outlook on life. I found it hilarious, because I got to see the anxious insomniac who rubbed bald patches into his eyebrows, and would sometimes wake up sobbing at 5:30am and banging his head on the headboard when his ex-wife was emotionally harming his son.
A few weeks before H did a 180, I remember telling him that I didn't agree that he was a lighthearted optimist. I told him there was much more to him than that, but that his true self was still lovable and I loved all of him. I thought that was a nice thing to say, but I guess that may have been an incredibly threatening thing to him.
In the end, it doesn't matter, but I still want to know if I missed something and how. It's all so confusing for me because he appeared to adore me, until he didn't. He was happy, until he wasn't. I got the rug yanked out from under my feet and I want to know why. Not to go back, or to not detach, but because I want to know because of what it means for me.
I am proud to say that I don't feel I was very codependent with H. I had very solid boundaries, and would talk to him about how he could improve things, but I didn't fix anything for him. I remained focused on me and I always felt I liked who he was at his core. The largest source of stress we had was the constant BS coming from his ex and some from his two teenagers, but we'd talked about how we just had 2-3 more years of it and then we were home free. Other than that, we were pretty happy, I thought. I liked who he was, though I did wish he'd get some help for his anxiety and his repressed childhood issues. I really liked his kids, and they seemed to like me. I'd thought that once he was free from being legally required to communicate with his ex - who was trying her hardest to traumatize him - we'd be free from the majority of the stress on us.
As for the legal stuff, it turns out I haven't technically been served yet. My L asked for my permission to be served so that the sheriff wouldn't come to my workplace. The 20 day response deadline starts from that date. We talked it through and my L will be writing up a denial of their claims, and we'll also counterfile. My L wants me to settle and then get the case dismissed, but we don't see any way of H being receptive to a settlement that does not have me incurring a financial loss for his decisions without counterfiling. H and his L are still approaching this as if he should get a full refund for a faulty Cadence, and that H's actions are all perfectly normal, which is fun.
My L said the bills don't start really racking up until depositions and hopefully this will be settled by then.
I asked my L why H's L wouldn't just advise him to give me a fair amount of money and settle this so he can sell. He said that it's not unusual for clients not to be forthcoming with the whole story, and he feels that's likely in H's case. So I'm hoping that describing how this all unfolded will lead them to want to settle. And, honestly, I'll be describing H's actions after he decided he wanted to be rid of me, which were emotionally abusive, so I'm hoping the threat of exposure countering his "nice optimistic guy" image will lead him to want to settle out of court.
I shared H's likely view of me with the L, and he hilariously interrupted me and said "so you're a demon, then?" and I said "pretty much. But a clingy one who is trying to keep him from selling the house because I am SO hoping to get back together." and then we laughed. He's going to include language that I am eager to get the house sold to counteract that ridiculousness. Who knows if it will work. I am bothered by the fact that not reaching a settlement could be furthering H's belief that I am hoping for him back; I've worked so hard to detach but it's not visible because of the circumstances/H's foggy brain.
In the end, H chose the comfort of familiar dysfunction over living an emotionally healthier life. In my mind, there are definite narc tendencies there, but I'm still unclear if that's his true self, or if there was a CPTSD breakdown/MLC that led him to seek out familiar defense mechanisms. I may never know, but I wish I did for my own sake, so I can figure out what it all means for my people picker.
Right now, I'm happy alone, even though it's tough wading through all of this, while not having anyone to hug me and tell me it will be alright. It's tough not having someone to tell about my day and confide in about my fears. But I'm hoping I'm putting in the time to be ready to meet someone healthy and reliable. I still wish it could be H, and maybe there's a .5% chance that he'll show up one day haven taken responsibility for himself, but I know that's unlikely. If he did want to try to R, I am very clear that pretty words are not enough this time, and it would take a great deal for me to ever trust him again.
Logically, it will be so much better/easier for me to find someone new.
Cadence, a cyber hug to you. I'm not sure I see narcissist in yours either. Mine is so textbook that others pale in comparison though. I've read and been told again and again the stress, and indeed divorce, often exacerbate narcissistic traits, so whether he is a narc or is in an MLC, it is possible that he is under a lot of stress from his choices and depression and is just making some incredibly selfish choices.
So what does all this mean for you? How does it change your life? Moving sounds great, if that is what you want. I'm hoping a change of scenery will help kickstart a new life (but also realizing that we take our problems with us).
Remember that the house stuff might also not really be about house stuff. While it is true that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar, that sometimes it also something more. Seems like there were easier paths to getting this done than the way he has chosen. Mine will often use formal threats to try to get me to engage. Right now we are engaging quite a bit because of the sale of the house and swapping property, and taking care of the cats, and spending time with the kids as time wanes down, so of course he's being nicer.
Have you tried testing that theory? Call him up, say H I'm about to spend a bunch of money responding to your lawsuit but given our history and past friendship thought I'd make one last run to see if we can just talk this out between us. What might happen? What risk would there be? It's always helpful to have the other guy explain how he sees the case. You just keep your mouth shut and listen and learn things that would cost you tens of thousands of dollars to learn in discovery.
Hey Own,
Thanks for responding. Your advice is always a relief to me.
I remember reading your numbered recounting of your conversation with your ex, and the few about his OWs being versions of his mom were so right on the money. I still don't know if H had someone in the wings, but I new he didn't intend on spending much time alone. I've always been fascinated at the women he dates, as they all are self-absorbed and... not very attractive. (I've met a few of them and it's always horrifying.)
Thanks for the reassurance about H. Though his actions fit a N, some things still don't fit. There is a type of N called the 'vulnerable' or 'covert' N, (versus the more grandiose version, which seems to fit your H.) Or it could be that being surrounded by Ns and never processing his grief leads him to take on familiar actions.
I believe that he wanted to hurt me. I talked about how much I loved that house, how my pets loved that house, how excited I was to garden this summer. He knew I needed to focus on school and couldn't have upheaval in my life. And he very clearly wanted to take it all away from me.
I do think there was a breakdown. I can't really describe it, but it was as if his limbs were moving through jello rather than air. He'd sleep on the tippy edge of the mattress, like he was a vampire sleeping in an invisible coffin, lest we accidentally touch. (But came to bed every night, even the night he told me that we were over and we were selling the house.) One time I leaned down to pick something up from a table near him, and he visibly flinched. He acted as if he needed to get away from me in the house, but I was never chasing him (I recognize he needs space when he's mad.)
It was so bizarre that I stick on MLC.
You are probably right about the legal actions as a method to try to engage me. There are several points throughout this process where I've felt baited, like he wanted to trigger me to chase him or yell at him or something. We've done this once before, and after things are over, I don't stay in touch. It actually helped him look at his crazy ex through fresh eyes, because she will seize any opportunity to contact him. So if he can't see me as me, and just the females he fears, then that makes sense.
I also think about how terrified he was to approach any sort of court situation with his ex, and how much he wanted to keep it out of court because "women always win." So here he is, trying to take me to court, and I'm much more clever than his ex on her best day? What? How?
I may consider a conversation, but I think the time for it would be after he and his L read what I file. My L did tell me that I shouldn't contact him, but if I hear from him, it's okay to talk to him. He said don't give anything away or make any agreements and just listen to him.
Though I'm not sure what I'd learn. I've heard his side over and over again. I was a mistake. The house was a mistake. He wants his down payment "back" and should not have to incur any financial loss because he did all of this for me and it was never enough.
I haven't updated in a while. It's not a great one.
In an effort to avoid running into H, I make lunchtime trips to his favorite grocery store. (I know he goes in the evenings or weekends.)
After I checked out, I was walking out and saw his teenage daughter. She'd just walked in and was smiling and laughing with a friend of hers. She didn't see me.
I'm happy that she's happy, but gosh did that enhance the "outside looking in" and "life goes on without me" feelings. I'm sniffling at my desk at work and not doing a great job of hiding my tears.
On the legal front, I had to respond to H's complaint/summons. I went to my L's last Monday and worked through it. We also decided to file a counter-claim. H's complaint laid out a very factual, but limited, picture of what happened. My L and I think he wasn't honest with his L about what happened. She probably heard a version of the "Cadence and I just grew apart and she was so shocked when I told her that she moved out. She doesn't understand that the house needs to be sold and/or doesn't want to sell it so she can hold onto me."
And with that viewpoint, there seemed to be very little willingness to offer me anything that didn't make me take a loss. His imaginary real estate refund process is still happening.
I feel like if this were a normal ending, he'd have the maturity to say "Boy, I'm in a pickle. I'm going to make her a fair offer so that we can end this." But no, he will only offer me a paltry amount, since he is determined to get every penny back. I feel that's enormously unfair, given that he ripped the rug out from under my feet and this was all his doing. He went into an investment with me, and he's leaving it early. That's his right, but why expect to be fully reimbursed?
So we filed a counter-claim. It was filed with the court a week ago. We did it to give a full picture of what happened, and to hopefully compel his side to get real with the offers.
Though I read through it and nodded my head at what was in there, I still feel rotten. Perhaps the titles of the sections were what got to me: Abuse, Attempt to Defraud, Breach of Contract, etc.
I talked about him kicking down the locked bedroom door. I talked about his attempts to get me to sign documentation that confused the type of deed we have. I talked about how he (and his kids) profited from me while we were living there. I talked about how I filed for my property tax relief for the house, while he filed his for his personal condo (in his magical thinking, the house would sell quickly and he'd just move back there. I knew that wasn't likely, and reminded him he'd save much more if he filed for the house, but he refused. So the tax bill likely went way up in July.) Meanwhile, I couldn't file it for my personal condo (the one I couldn't move back into because H started his freakout/MLC whatever on the same day I had tenants sign a year lease.) so my tax bill is going up. He also closed out a joint account we had, or changed the password on it, so that I can no longer see nor pay the mortgage bill online.
The one thing that felt okay about this is that it has him listed as Plaintiff and me as Defendant. What I filed was very aggressive, but at least I can feel alright that I'm defending myself, here.
At least he gets to see in writing that I also want to sell the house. That's not the issue that is holding this up.
We have a long holiday weekend coming up, and so far I don't have plans. I've made a bit of a connection with a cute guy, but it's long distance and we just message one another. Some friends found another guy they want to set me up with. I'm not sure I'm there yet (and perhaps my tears today are a sign I'm further from "there" than I thought.)
I got out of town last weekend to visit friends. That was a little tough for me. She's a stepmom friend, and she met her husband around the same time as I did, and they followed a similar course. But he still loves her and she still belongs. I tried to just be happy for them and not make it about me. The unfamiliar environment helped.
But I'm in a pretty negative frame of mind right now. Part of it is hormonal, but another part of it is just plain pain.
He just... discarded me. He's never shown any doubt about that. (Well, maybe once, when out of nowhere at our second counseling session when he said he'd thought about staying together but living apart, but that's it.) There are no "touch and go"s. Nothing.
He could not wait to be rid of me and the life we'd built to find his fantasy woman, where there are no differences and she likes everything he likes. Also, she's self-absorbed and neurotic like his mother, but in a super sexy way.
He adored me until he blew up and didn't. And now I get random peeks from the outside looking in. That was my family and now it's not.
So sorry you are struggling today, Cadence.
I wish I had some advice but all I can offer is my view from the outside.
Your H clearly has issues that don't have anything to do with you. He's dysfunctional and has proven it time and time again, don't allow yourself to forget that.
I struggle too with feeling discarded but I have to constantly remind myself that W has issues that have been there since before she even met me.
Cut yourself a little slack.
Thanks, T.
I've heard absolutely nothing from him, so it's easy to fill in the blanks when I'm low and get down on myself.
I also feel terribly guilty for filing the counter claim. I feel like I've been pushed into an adversarial role and that's painful.
I know he can't stop and doubt himself, because then it all tumbles down. And maybe new romance is keeping him high on life. I don't really know.
Oh dear, sweet, wise Cadence. Just this morning I realized you had "gone dark" on us
, and I tried to pull up your thread and say "Check in with us!", but for some reason I could only find where you'd posted on other threads. (I did the same with PsySara, but found her's. ???) Anyway, I've been thinking about you all day since that happened, and I'm so glad you posted.
BUT...... it makes my heart heavy to see your post. You know what? It IS JUST.PLAIN.PAIN. And you know as well as anyone there's no shortcut around it. I hate, hate, hate that we've all been treated this way. WE are the good guys. If there was any way I could, I'd come to where you are, we'd do something crazy for the holiday! (Ownit told me on the phone she booked herself a whitewater rafting trip. How awesome does that sound???)
You need to crawl out from under the rock and make yourself some plans. YOU KNOW those long, empty weekends are the worst! They set us back emotionally. When it's hardest to make yourself do it, that's when you need it the most.
Rejection $ucks. Just plain and simple.
I wish I had more to offer you, to help you through this day. Words sort of fail me right this minute.
But just know you are loved, and you ARE going to come out happy on the other side of this.
(((((((( Cadence )))))))))
Cadence, I'm sorry you are feeling low and pushed into a place you would rather not be. However, you haven't been left much of a choice. The way in which he has distanced and separated himself and refused to work this out amicably is just cruel. With any luck his lawyer will see that this is going to be messy (read expensive) and suggest a resolution that gets everyone out as quickly as possible.
In the meantime, do focus on you and good times and try to keep this in the back of your mind. Legal processes are very slow and if you try to ride the tide of this it will make you seasick.
Thanks, T.
I've heard absolutely nothing from him, so it's easy to fill in the blanks when I'm low and get down on myself.
Sorry Cadence.
This^^ resonates. Maybe If we insist on renting out space to the soon to be former spouses, perhaps for 5 minutes we could try envisioning it NOT being so perfect.
I read an article written by a 2nd wife, who had been the OW to her h's first m. She says she wishes she had known before, what would happen.
She wrote about the pressure to always exceed the prior wife b/c of the comparisons she feels happen, and she writes that she is resented by her h now, every time something goes wrong, or when his r's with his friends or children and family, are strained.
She said she was never really accepted by her step kids - who blamed her for blowing up their family, and the awkward moments that happen at every special occasion or holiday and apparently always will...are her fault too.
Finally, she worries that she did a terrible thing to people she never met, which we know is true.
I don't think I'd want to be an OW. And I mean that.
And your h can only spackle over cracks in the surface, so much.
I also feel terribly guilty for filing the counter claim. I feel like I've been pushed into an adversarial role and that's painful.
He put you in an impossible situation. And he drew first blood. So here you are
Facts are facts. If he kicked a door down, he kicked a door down. If he lied, he lied, etc
Part of your DB work and your own self care, is defending yourself and hiring an advocate. Our adversarial system is based on the presumption that 2 advocates arguing their cases will elicit the truth. Let's hope so.
I know he can't stop and doubt himself, because then it all tumbles down. And maybe new romance is keeping him high on life. I don't really know.
Yes -you are correct. And I have learned 2 other things.
1) Your h blew up a family and for what? A lot is riding on his version of reality, even when it's very distorted. There is also the massive impression management he must do.
To THEM, its not necessary to live life with a moral compass, HOWEVER it is important to them that they appear to be. . Same for looking "happy, now". This is their impression management.
I see you are struggling with the rejection you feel (discarded/replaced) and with the idea that all is well in their world. Would it be better if his daughter was sad?
Of course not, she's doing her best. My guess would be that you are missed and that maybe your stbx h is scrambling to cover that up or treat it with more praise or gifts.
Don't be gas lighted.
You have to remind yourself of the difference it makes when a person jumps from one r to a new one, right away.
My s31 said he'd "never want to be the rebound person" b/c it is such an insecure position. Would you want to date a man who just recently divorced?
I'm leery of any guy who is within a year of divorcing, and I simply won't date a man who is only separated. That's for MY protection, not just his and not just his ex wife's.
It is plain weird to hook up with someone who just left a r. And it's wrong to date a man who is still with his wife.
I cannot even imagine dating a year ago, when we first sep. Can you?
So we are not dealing with people like us, so don't "go there" about how great his life is and how you have gaping holes in your life. Fill the gaps and detach from his "impression management show."
They rushed too fast for their own good, never mind ours. Just from a risk standpoint, I would not have rushed it. It speaks for itself that your h and mine, did.
The reason it's easier for them to deal with all this loss, is because they are not facing it. That doesn't mean there is no loss and it does not mean they can avoid it forever.
There is a lot they are not processing.
I know it's not a contest. I know all we can do is deal with our own side of the equation, and I believe we can and will be happy when we make it happen.
God knows I'll try.
You are not alone.
Hey everyone,
Not too much to update. Legal process is chugging along. Ex will have to respond to my counter-claim, and I'm very interested in seeing what sort of BS responses he'll choose.
I used to help him with his high conflict ex-wife's legal aggression, so if there's anything left of "him" in there, he'll know that I surely have evidence of the things that I claimed.
After he received my response and counter-claim, his attorney sent over another settlement offer. Inexplicably, they are offering me the SAME amount I've already turned down once. ... Seriously? Not even a dollar more?
I've been avoiding dealing with that because I.just.can't. I don't understand this insanity and I've checked out because I have other things to focus on.
If things were as he claimed, and we "grew apart" and he just realized we couldn't stay together and we needed to sell the house, someone sane might make a decent offer, realizing that what happened wasn't my choice (nor was I given any say in the matter) and therefore I shouldn't be financially penalized. However, that would be far too sane for my situation.
Nope. He never dealt with the controlling women in his past. He never dealt with the fact that he was his Narcissist mother's emotional caretaker growing up, but also the scapegoat. He's got so much anger about that, but Narc mom also taught him that negative emotions were unacceptable. He's all bottled up and he projected all of his rage onto me, the one person who would tell him that he had every right to be angry at his history. He pushed me away.
No word from H. I'm okay with that. If I hear from him, I think it will be in a few years, once his kids are grown and he's had to do some self-reflection, and he's over his efforts to try to replicate the good parts of Cadence plus all the amazing qualities that some self-absorbed crazy women can offer him. The man wants a mother right now. He doesn't want a partner. He wants a sexy mother figure so he can correct his childhood.
An unexpected development is that I've forged a connection with a new guy. 46, no kids, and we've got crushes on one another. He seems really sweet and emotionally available. He tells me stories about his family, and he loves his mother and grandmother. He went through a LTR breakup earlier this year, and he's throwing himself into training for a marathon, which I find really admirable. He was married in his twenties, and though it didn't work out, he and his ex are still good friends.
We're just talking at this point, since he's 5-ish hours away. However, there's a good chance he may be interested in moving to my area in the not-so-distant future. We're moving slowly and we still have yet to see if we're attracted to one another in person, but I'm thankful just to be talking to a nice man who is interested in me.
It is so refreshing. It's making me see how much I had to walk on eggshells for H, and that he wasn't seeing me for me. But no matter what, this guy (or any guy) is not my savior. I can save myself. I can be happy all on my own. I'm still GAL and making sure I don't fill in the unknowns about this guy with positives, but, I gotta be honest - he's knocking it out of the park so far. I don't have to wonder; he's consistent and kind.
I've been talking about it with my IC to make sure I'm not rebounding or using this guy as a crutch, and she says I have a really good perspective on it.
I recognize that I have a history of choosing emotionally unavailable men. This guy's kindness and consistency are something that makes me feel physically uncomfortable at times. But I recognize that is 100% about me, and I'm powering through, because I deserve to fall in love with someone consistent and kind. And maybe that's what will happen.
Onward and (hopefully) upward.
Hey lady,
WOW! Your H's consistent history re-writing never ceases to amaze me. He should write fiction. You "grew apart", but only one of you moved. It would be so helpful if the wayward partners would feel the need to seek professional guidance during these seasons, whether together with us or not.
I know the legal system gets in no hurry. That's another reason I hesitate to jump into it yet. Yet another lesson (that we didn't ask for....) in patience. Sometimes I just want to scream "Enough new learning, already!" I know you're wise enough to just let it keep churning though. It's the rest of your financial life that's at stake here, so hang tough.
So...... a new fella, huh? I'm curious since you indicate that you two haven't met in person yet, did you join a dating site? Do you have plans to meet soon, to test the waters of attraction? Of course you know what all your "mother hens" on here will say...... take it slow. I think we all become so very protective of one anothers' hearts as we see each other begin to stick our toe into the scary waters of future relationships. That's a testament to the power of these forum friendships though. It's amazing to me, and what a gift to be able to form these friendships online. I feel I know more about some of you people than I do my own close friends. We hear so much these days about the danger and pain that anonymity online can bring, and that's true, but there's a flip side to that, and that is the freedom to find a safe place to bear our souls, and find fellowship and courage in that openness.
All of that to say- you be careful, girlfriend! Baby steps and trust your gut feeling, but still, enjoy the freedom and confidence that any new friendships can bring, after this season of brutal rejection and heartache. We all deserve to feel the warm sun, after the darkest part of the night.
Something interesting just dawned on me as I typed those last words. I have a very special aunt who I am particularly close to. She doesn't live close, and she has NO time boundaries with phone conversations- so we communicate since BD mostly by email. Plus it's been painful for me to do phone calls b/c I get so emotional, so email for me has been best lately. Rather than repeating myself so much, sometimes I'll copy and paste some of my thoughts from this forum into emails to her. Since these last two visits, I shared (probably over-shared) some of my posts with her. She is normally so very supportive of me, and she has a real gift of encouragement. But she has BLASTED me (of course, in a loving, kind way, but still blasted) for some of the things I've said, like "I didn't need to just dump all of my pain at his feet during his visit". She exploded on me- why in the world would you not??? He has trampled all over you, he's not worthy of you, how dare he, blah blah. And I let it hurt my feelings a bit. But I just realized something. She does not have the benefit of the mindset of DB, nor the hours and hours of testimony of how this works, nor has she had relationship rejection in at least the last 40 years. If I had to name the most perfect devotion in a couple, it would be she and my uncle. They have always adored each other, and find it horrifying that a person could betray their life partner. (Well, so do I, for that matter, but it looks a little different when it happens to you, and also when you spend a lot of time on a forum like this, and see the heavy traffic of broken hearts appear daily.) So I realize that we all work from our own perspective, and that is still her reality. The sad thing is, it also reminds me of the long term damage that H has caused in his own relationships, over and above the one with me. They would do their best to welcome him back in, if that time came, but it would never be the same. There's the danger in over-sharing your intimate heartbreak with family. You maybe can forgive and learn to trust again, but I fear oftentimes, family cannot. He has burned several bridges like that with my family and close friends, and that would just be one more strike against any possible reconciliation down the road. They would try, I know, for my sake, but I sense their anger and distaste when his name comes up, even if they don't vocalize it.
Oh well, enough rambling about me. Didn't mean to chase that rabbit here on your thread. Gotta run anyway to head to IC.
You keep doing you. One can see from your early posts to now, how much you've grown in strength and grace, without so much fear of the future. Guard your heart, but not TOO much, because all relationships come with risk. Otherwise they wouldn't be deep enough to bring that great joy that can come from them.
So good to hear from you. If you can't find me in the future, come over to MLC. I really think that's where I belong. I'm certainly not brand new to this any more.
Cadence,
Check in, girl. I've been thinking of you and need an update!
I hope you're not posting because you're too busy LIVING.
((((( Cadence ))))))
Hi Leah!
because you're too busy LIVING.
Somewhat true
I'm living, but not much fun stuff in there. Work and school leave me exhausted. I have had some time with friends built in there, and that's been nice. Some friends had an Oktoberfest party last weekend, so I got to spend time with good friends and acquaintances. We sat around a firepit into the wee hours of the morning. It was very nice!
New guy is coming to town to visit me in a couple of weekends. I'm trying to keep myself in check, because who knows how it will go before meeting in person. (We do video chat, so we at least know we work on that level.) He and I have been exchanging messages for months. They were platonic at first, but we both developed some pretty big crushes based on what the other had to say.
He's consistent and sweet. He didn't seek out shortcuts for getting through his last relationship ending, and I admire that. (He'll be running a marathon the week after he visits me!) He loves his mother, but there doesn't appear to be any weirdness there. This is important to me - H was enmeshed with his from an early age, and still care-takes her anxiety on her weekly call to him. He's got no room for a wife when he's already married to his mother and I was naive to believe otherwise. I like that new guy loves his mom, but not too much. lol!
New guy seems like a good person. I hesitate to compare, but it's really helped me see how shallow H was, emotionally. H buried a great deal of pain, and he does not want to go there, so he keeps everything very surface level. He's not going to be able to be a good partner until he addresses his pain, and based on what I saw, he's not motivated to do that. Happiness is external, I guess.
I got knocked off the pedestal H had put me on, and boy is he angry about that. He still thinks he's going to find his perfect match, where there are no issues, even though the man has subscriptions worth of baggage.
Haven't heard from H. I'm not surprised. I don't want to, anyway. I've been cast in the role of controlling gold digger out to steal his freedom, so I'm right where he needed me to be to make sure there was no chance of repairing anything. I'm right where he needed me to be to project his mother-issues onto me. He wants to hate me, and there's nothing to do other than let him.
It doesn't hurt very much anymore. Honestly, what I worry about are his kids and whether he's disparaged me to them and if they believe it. That would hurt me deeply, but it's out of my control. I'm currently working through that fear and grief.
The legal stuff about the house sale continues to make my stomach turn and I just want it over with. I had to deal with it a bit yesterday and couldn't do anything else other than crawl into bed and pull the covers over my head yesterday evening. I get exhausted. I'm thinking of taking less $ just to get it over with, for my own benefit.
Honestly, if things go well with new guy, it may move forward quickly. It's left unspoken that if we get into a relationship, he'll be moving here. He wants to get out of the city. I'm okay with this.
I never thought I'd say this, but I'm very ready to leave H and his problems behind me. I can't trust him, and maybe there's a better alternative for me out there who will appreciate me for who I am. I haven't taken shortcuts in life.
New guy seems to address his issues head-on, and I admire that. I'm a bit afraid of midlife men, to be honest. He's 46, and I certainly can't be sure, but he doesn't seem to repress emotions. So, based on all I've learned, he feels a great deal more safe to me.
I'm still pacing myself, but I do have feelings for him, so there's only so much I can do