WW in A; NC achieved(?), Next steps. (2nd thread)

Divorcebusting.com

Starting second thread. Here is my first with my story:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2729896#Post2729896

In nutshell-- I seriously neglected W over 7-8 year period. There were overlays (health problems, 2 special needs kids, financial troubles) but ultimately the responsibility was on me-- I turned away from her instead of towards her. Wife is "sexual being", but not just sex is important to her but intimacy. EA started in October/November 2016 with a friend of mine who took advantage of situation and info both W and I confided in him to make his move. BD on 1/23 when I discovered the A. W said A not physical at that time, and I have good intel that this is so. She distanced for a few weeks while I was also awakening and GAL-ing, etc, during which things improved for us. Then, everything turned around and she started putting up walls and distancing again. In late March they spent the night together-- unclear if there was sex. The A MAY have gone physical, but I cannot be sure, she still says no-- at very least involved fairly explicit phone sexting, etc. The OM is kind of a low-life (serial drinker, womanizer, not much of a future, five years her senior but looks 10 years older) but is a "fun" and "funny" guy and really "makes her laugh." Based on her behavior, pretty certain she is a "WW" as Sandi2 defines that term. Got her to promise "No Contact" last week by establishing boundary of "no open marriage". She appears to be mostly complying, but started sleeping separately from me in guest room. Some but not alot of remorse shown for the A... "it just happened"... and she really fears alienating our boys (S16 and S18). Another BIG overlay is her BFF who also appears to be wayward (separated currently) and seems to be proponent/enabler of the A. Several other close friends who are in marital trouble as well. Hoping she and I can survive the storm, even if we're the only ones.

Trying to decide now WON to try to seek some MC.. she's mentioned but more in the context of box checking and "seeing if I want to try to work on marriage" rather than actually affirmatively "working on marriage." I am also struggling with the pursuit/distance dichotomy and how to balance that since it was "distance" that got me in this bind in the first place.

Also getting alot of conflicting "voices" on this. Please see my first thread for more details.

Thanks to all-- being on this forum really, really helps!

Okay, sending a call out to the WW experts here, Sandi2, especially (if she's still talking to me.) Trying to decide if what my W is doing is "normal" WW grieving where she has agreed to "No Contact" with the OM, or if it is a more troubling indication that she will likely be violating the no contact agreement. In sum, the W drove by the OM's favorite hangout tonight for a second time in four days (NC was agreed to a week ago today)... but she didn't go in. That indicates to me either that she is not in contact with him and so doesn't know WON he is there OR does know he's there and then chickened out and didn't go in. Or maybe she just wanted to check if he was there.(Again, nothing else currently open in the strip mall where this bar is and she never went there before starting the A with the OM so no reason to go into that lot other than to go to or by that bar, so she was there on account of the OM) At any rate, there does not APPEAR to have been any "contact", so she has not technically done what I told her would be crossing my boundary, though she did volunteer the following during that convo: "I wont be going to _________ (the bar)" and " I won't be seeking out any contact." I guess technically both of these are true, though she is toeing the line to be sure. On seeing her drive in there, I was ready to "put her out" (in this case, call her on violating that boundary I had established and to which she had agreed) but then she didn't go in. So, I'm torn between being somewhat pleased that she didn't go in and being irked that she drove by there in the first place. Did it violate my boundary? Technically, by the letter? No. In spirit? Probably yes. I understand the "grieving"/"recovery" process WW's need to go through-- is this an anticipated part of it? Should I be willing to let this slide? My take is that this seems hazardous and she shouldn't be doing it, but since not strictly violating my boundary maybe give it a week or so more and see if it continues.

Sandi2 is going to slap me for thinking I have to ask advice at every turn probably, but... i DO have a plan, here. It's just that, right now, I need to understand the mindset of the WW in one or two particular areas, and am not having much luck in the forums. Is the above behavior typical? Should a WW be given a little leeway in that regard in the early grieving process while I watch and wait a bit and give her some space (as I am planning to do) or should I be enforcing that boundary more strictly and insisting she not even drive by there?

For those wondering, I find all this out through family locator on verizon which works GREAT, BTW (and which she has never turned off on her phone), and I know pretty much when she is up to something ahead of time because she is an extremely inept liar and has a multitude of "tells" when she is up something, all of which I know.

I would say driving by and not stopping isn't something, at your stage, that I'd go to the mattresses over. You raise it, and I think she then knows you're spying on her and tracking her movements, finds that creepy and demeaning, and I think she then concludes how on earth do I ever put a R back together with this man? Or maybe she's incredibly self-aware, and would immediately find the empathy to understand why you'd be doing this, isn't angry and doesn't shut down, but I kind of doubt that, or you probably wouldn't be in this place in your R in the first place.

It truly [censored] that she had this affair, but they really don't seem to end without a period of withdrawal that you have to patiently ride out if you're sincerely wanting to reconcile. Remember that many LBS never get even to this place, where the WS is at least articulating a desire to drop contact and work on the R. The drivebys are symptomatic of that withdrawal process and, if viewed in that light, maybe are not such a bad indicator (to the extent she hasn't stopped and gone into the bar).

This is interesting. Now, she tells me, she wants to have a "Mother's Day Date" with her BFF (the one who is herself most definitely a "wayward" and whom I strongly suspect of advocating/enabling her A with the OM) where she will then "sleep over" (probably at a hotel) with the BFF. This has disaster written all over it. I have said nothing about cutting contact with the BFF (I have no hard proof of her involvement/enabling/brokering in my wife's A) though have discussed with W that she should strongly consider WON the BFF is leading her in the right direction. She returned to our bed tonight for the first time in 5 nights after having asked me, and was visibly/noticeably friendlier. To me, this SCREAMS set-up to have a meeting with the OM. Not sure what I can do. There are ways I can monitor, of course, but I really feel like I shouldn't have to be, and SHOULDN't be, snooping all the time. Given my strong suspicion here and her pattern of behavior, guess maybe I try to monitor this one time to see... But seems to me she should be trying harder to earn some trust.

Sorry I didn't see your post sooner. �

Okay, you say you got her to agree to NC with the OM.� Bear in mind that she still has a WW mindset.� I mean, you woke her from sleep, and stated your boundary.� I suppose, based on what you say, that she said there would be no more contact.� However, the agreemen to NC, alone, does not automatically end her waywardness.� Understand? � �

You have quickly wanted to approach her about the Internet, FB, etc.� Do you mean b/c of the connection with OM?� If so, did you not say that she agreed to NC of any type?� If so, why do you feel it is necessary to have a second approach about her Internet activity? I don't recommend you approach her with anymore, at this particular time.� However, it may be needed later.�Timing is very important, and H tend to have difficulty finding balance.

Her driving by their hang-out place, is very common for a grieving WW.� However, I get this uncomfortable vibe that there's more going on that meets the eye.� For instance, the response she gave you upon your approach about NC with OM.� She said it (the contacts) had dropped considerable.� Also, she accepted no responsibility.� Then one night after your boundary, she moves to a separate bedroom (I know about the bad back) and has remained there.� Three days after NC, she's driving by the hang-out joint.� I believe you said it happened twice?� Then the biggie.....she chooses to spend Mother's Day with her friend, and make it an overnighter......instead of being with her children on Mother's Day?� Why choose Mother's Day weekend to stay overnight in a hotel (you said probably) supposedly with her BFF?� Why couldn't she wait till the next weekend?� I mean, that's a red flag, IMHO. �

And with all of that ^^^ said, this is what I am wondering.� The OM was beginning to slack off with his contacting her, right about the time you hit her about NC.� Instead of worrying about her MR, she starts to feel insecure about their affair.....b/c of the actions of the OM.� She senses he is slipping through her fingers.� She drives by their favorite place to see if his car is there.� If it's not there, then she's worried he's found someone else. Maybe the BFF is helping her and OM with plans to meet up, IDK.....but it looks suspicious to me.� BTW, this would be completely in line with the mind and actions of a WW. �However, I don't really know what she was thinking or what was going on over the weekend. �

Let me explain something about the WW.� She may agree to NC, however, she will probably not feel remorse at the time her H approaches her about no more contact.� Also, she will experience something similar as you may have felt when you first discovered your M was in jeopardy.� It made you want to cling to your W even tighter.� You realized just how much you wanted to keep her.� Well, the WW begins thinking of how she'll be stuck in a M she doesn't want, and will lose her last chance at "true love and happiness" when the A ends.� She begins to desperately want to contact OM, at least see him one more time.� I said all of that to show you that there's a good chance she is not serious about no more contact, b/c of the emotional state of her mind.� That's not to say it won't change, but at the moment....she could be waffling.� Do you see what I mean?

Quote:

So, I'm torn between being somewhat pleased that she didn't go in and being irked that she drove by there in the first place. Did it violate my boundary? Technically, by the letter? No.

And by the letter is what she'd bring to your attention, if you mention it. �

Quote:

In spirit? Probably yes. I understand the "grieving"/"recovery" process WW's need to go through-- is this an anticipated part of it? Should I be willing to let this slide? My take is that this seems hazardous and she shouldn't be doing it, but since not strictly violating my boundary maybe give it a week or so more and see if it continues.

� � � ��
I doubt she'll be doing much of anything "in spirit" toward the MR.� Her actions are what count.� I wouldn't call it letting it slide.� Just wait a few days to see how things go. � �

Quote:

Is the above behavior typical? �

Yes

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Should a WW be given a little leeway in that regard in the early grieving process while I watch and wait a bit and give her some space (as I am planning to do)

She is going to test it.� You can be calm or go charging at her like a bull.� I'm saying you need to wait for a few days.� She hasn't come to a complete decision yet (just b/c she agreed to NC).

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or should I be enforcing that boundary more strictly and insisting she not even drive by there? �

Wait a minute. �Enforcing a boundary is not "insisting" she does anything.� She had a choice when you stated your boundary, and she still has a choice.� Enforcing it is when you do some type of action other than talking.� I've seen H's go around crowing about their boundaries to the WW, but when push came to shove..........he was all talk and backed down. I'm not telling you to act on her driving by to see if OM was at the bar. I agree with JRuss. However, if you should discover she is still contacting OM, and especially if she spent the night with him.....instead of the BFF, then you can resort to action.

Boundaries are not threats, and the more times a H repeats them.....the weaker the boundary appears.

BTW, when you stated your boundary to your W, I remember you saying NC......but did you discuss transparency, also. Did she actually agree to be transparent? If you discover bad news for the MR, don't panic and instead do an exercise that brings down high blood pressure. Leave and go to a private rual areas vent out those negative that is messing with you.

Dammit Dammit Dammit. Disastrous weekend. W's suspected wayward BFF invites wife AND me out for dinner/drinks on Friday. Ah, I think, maybe BFF is not the WW i think she is... maybe this is a breakthrough. Certainly an opportunity to hang with the W in a fun setting. Instead, I puzzlingly get completely hammered on four or five drinks (it is likely someone slipped me a Mickey... I am no alky but 4-5 drinks dont do that to me, not even close.) BFF maneuvers me into a conversation about how she knows I suspect her of being a bid influence. I confront her, tell her I know what's going on, etc. (though i don't offer alot of details). LAter, after BFF leaves, W takes me home, I pass out, she goes BACK out to the bar where BFF and presumably OM are. She is out until 5:15 AM, stopping to spend an hour and 15 mins at OMs house (I can track her car, remember-- not proud of it but its my only failsafe). Saturday AM she tells me she "just" ubered out to get car. I find out truth from my son who I am apologizing to for being tipsy coming home. Then I check the tracking records because previously thought "no way she did anything Friday night after we came home". TODAY, she stayed home "sick from work"... went out midday while kids at school, parked in vacant parking lot and left car for an hour. I can hear her and someone (pretty sure the OM.. he has a hot rod mustang that sounds very unique pulling in) laughing and her giggling. On today's little mission, can't say for SURE she saw HIM, but sure seems that way. I just discover this TONIGHT... AFTER we have had a convo about me apologizing for being drunk Friday and RE-committing to No Contact and a good faith effort to work on the MR and talk on a daily basis. I did NOT tell her I know she went to OM's house, just that I know she went to the bar. She had no further confession.

I feel like such. a. chump.

Obviously I need to drop the hammer. Going to try to gather some audio intel... would like to hear her for certain talking about the A with the BFF with whom she talks to on phone alot. Pretty clear W is communicating with OM via her cellphone somehow.

I can't "force" her out in my state, though if I have proof of adultery it is a bar to spousal support. My big lever though is her fear of losing the love of the kids, which, not surprisingly, was a big component of her talk with me tonight... "Why would we ever want to tell them anything BUT that it was a joint decision if we split.. anything else would just be to hurt them and me.." Not that she's thinking of splitting with the OM or anything.

Thoughts welcome. I love this woman but my heart is breaking and she can't be trusted. She was so sweet and so nice once upon a time. I am willing to "put her out" but may have to resort to holding the kids over her head (my only real leverage) to get her to go. Doing that might also cost me my current best friend who totally trusts his wife (My wife's BFF) from whom he is currently separated. Tomorrow is her birthday, BTW.

What would have been the motive for WW & BFF (or anyone else)slipping you a Mickey? Wasn't your W going to spend most of the weekend with BFF anyway? I don't know why they would think you needed to be passed out while they carried out their plans.

She came home Saturday morning and played hookie from work Monday, right? What about Saturday & Sunday? Did she go out again? Wasn't her plan to spend Mother's Day weekend with BFF?

I can only imagine how upset you are. Please do not allow your emotions to make you reveal your sources of intel, or how much you know. Also, don't tell her you learned the truth from your son. Did you read the post I sent yesterday?

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I just discover this TONIGHT... AFTER we have had a convo about me apologizing for being drunk Friday and RE-committing to No Contact and a good faith effort to work on the MR and talk on a daily basis. I did NOT tell her I know she went to OM's house, just that I know she went to the bar. She had no further confession.

What was said about "re-committing" to NC, and who brought it up? This is important to know. What did she confess? What was her demeanor?

She now knows you are using something to get your information, so she will go deeper underground to protect her affair. She'll look for devices you've planted.

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I can't "force" her out in my state, though if I have proof of adultery it is a bar to spousal support. My big lever though is her fear of losing the love of the kids, which, not surprisingly, was a big component of her talk with me tonight... "Why would we ever want to tell them anything BUT that it was a joint decision if we split.. anything else would just be to hurt them and me.." Not that she's thinking of splitting with the OM or anything.

B/C telling the kids her version of the split is NOT a joint decision! It would be a lie to cover her a$$. Who brought up the subject of telling the kids, this time around? You may see it as leverage, but please don't threaten her about telling her children if she doesn't end things with OM.

Have you sought legal advice? What does the law say about a husband/father leaving the home to separate from his adulterous wife? You need to know if it would affect spousal or child support, and if so......how much. I hope you did your legal homework before you started down this avenue.

I think you should stop using words like "kick, force, or put her out". You're right, you can't make her leave if she doesn't agree to it. If it should get to that point, you can calmly tell her she should leave since she's the one who no longer wants the MR. But if she's stubborn about it (b/c WW's feel a sense of entitlement), your alternative is to leave and stay somewhere else until you reconcile or divorce.......or you can choose in-house separation (which is usually a no-win). But first, get legal advice!.

You must know where you stand legally, before you say too much. You have told her you would not stay in a marriage of three. You did not verbally give her an amount of time, did you? If not, then don't tell her she has xx amount of time before you end the M.
I can explain more, if you are confused.

I am not suggesting you back down from your boundary. I am saying don't back yourself into a corner. It happens when a newcomer acts on emotions and does not have enough grounding. I think you need to try to calm down and don't have any re-committing talks or drill her about her activities. You cannot make her behave. If you know she is not honoring your NC boundary, then the ball has been tossed to you. I guess you tried to pitch the ball back to her (re-commit). Don't let this become a pattern. If you feel you need more intel, that's up to you. Some H's have read or heard things that were difficult to erase from their minds........even after reconciliation.

Sandi, I did read your post. I am doing all of this because I don't see any other way. The A with the OM keeps developing and, apparently, STRENGTHENING even though we are nearly 7 months in to it. She is showing classic WW signs... acting out of character, not caring what her kids think, etc. If I thought it could be "waited out" I might try, but she is engaged in classic "cake eating", IMO, and thinks she can have the A, the marriage, and the kids. Waiting it out and just playing it cool and GAL-ing aren't, I think, going to cut it since I neglected her for several years and she would probably be just perfectly happy right now to have me step aside and do "nothing". It really seems to me the only option I have is to enforce this boundary... which may mean ending my marriage but I think without enforcing the boundary it will end anyway. And this guy is a dirtbag. I am not sure I could take her back after she was "done" with a relationship with him in a year, or two or whatever. I need her to commit to leaving it. There are already things that I have heard that are going to be hard to "unhear". Logistically, I want to force the issue... my intention would be to bring it up to her tomorrow (after I have heard what she has to say to BFF or anyone else after our talk last night). I would just say "I know you haven't been respecting the no contact commitment you made to me. I told you I can't and won't live that way. I know we talked about working on the MR on Monday night, but I will not do so while you are maintaining contact with the OM and I will not live with you under the same roof while same. It is clear to me that you do not want to be in this MR right now, and I think you should start looking for another place to live." Only question is do I dump her clothes in the hallway as some on these forums have suggested?

In answer to some of your questions:

Re the Mickey: Im not really paranoid, and I was half joking. Still, it was very weird and i still, 4 days later, don't feel "right". And it was not alot of alcohol for me over that timeframe. I suppose the motive might be that they would know for a fact I couldn't come snooping. W made up some story about me being "out of hand" when I came home and she had to leave, but my son, to whom I apologized because I thought I needed to, told me "you were fine, you just went upstairs and went to bed."

Re: Weekend plan and Actual Events: W's plan was to just spend Saturday Night and Sunday Morning with BFF. BFF invited BOTH of us out to dinner Friday because she knew she "couldn't "have" my W both nights to herself so she invited me." Saturday, both W and I were hungover (me I am not really sure why and she because she went back out and drank and hung out with BFF and OM and didn't come in until 5 AM).She left at about 6PM Sat to go have dinner with BFF. (This they did), and then go to hotel (this they also did). I WAS fairly sure they stayed there together (W was still hungover and BFF getting a cold)... UNTIL yesterday when the new paradigm of driving somewhere and getting picked up by the OM came to light. This easily could have happened Sunday but I have no proof of it, and their convo in car did not indicate any coming subterfuge.

Re: My intel sources and info. I already told her it was my S18 that told me when I apologized to him for coming in tipsy: I said +"He said 'you were fine, Dad, you went upstairs to bed and Mom ubered back out to see [BFF]" I heard her come in at 5, as I also told her. Dont think I actually tipped any devices to either one. I did not indicate I knew precisely where she went, just that I knew she want to see BFF, who i knew to be at the OM's bar since that is where BFF told us she was going when she left us. i DID say I knew the A was more serious than either was letting on, though I relied on the original phoncon I overheard which, in reality, is enough. I also indicated I had gone to the bar a couple of times to seek out the OM (dumb, yes, I know, to spill that, but I was drunk).

Re: What did she confess and demeanor? She "confessed" nothing. She knows I know she went to the OM's favorite bar, and she knows I know he is pretty much always there. She does not know I know for sure if she saw him there... I didn't force a response on that saying "I don't want to know... I do know things got pretty messed up Friday night, and I just want to know if going forward you can commit to working on this relationship under the terms discussed (and we discussed some specific plans like counselling, which she agreed to try and which she had agreed to try last week and I dropped the ball, talking regularly and, of course, NC with the OM) I asked her if she could truly commit to this going forward and she said "its the same thing we've already been doing." She was a bit evasive, not actually saying "I commit not to see him or contact him", which is something I had to kind of wring out of her the first time around. She was also initially reluctant to talk but ultimately we chatted quite a bit. She is very focused on things like "why would we want to hurt each other if we went our separate ways" and "the kids can be happy we don't want to present a fractured front because it will make it harder", and other things that make it pretty clear she is thinking primarily in terms of life after the MR. She brought up the subject of telling the kids in a roundabout way, but I did not bite. I have previously said I "will not lie" to them and that I think if she decides to leave to pursue another relationship that she should tell them so... She does NOT like that idea AT ALL because "we were already pretty much done." She has also become VERY revisionist again, which is a complete reversion to where she was in January: She doesn't love me now, and probably never did, citing all sorts of reasons I wont go into, but most of which are revisionist at least and outright wrong at worst.

Re: Telling the kids. I have not "threatened to tell the kids." Though she seems to think I said at one point "I think I would want to tell the kids". I have THOUGHT to myself that if she pursues a relationship with this OM, my former friend who betrayed me by pursuing a MARRIED WOMAN, his FRIENDS wife, that MY boys, my SONS, MIGHT want to know that if they were going to be carrying on any kind of relationship with this lowlife. Would I be wrong to bring up that latter sentiment to her if she pushes the issue?

Re: Legal-- in my state I cant lose property rights if I move out, and my kids are 18 and nearly 17, so custody is not really an issue and wont be the time the D, if any, is final (it is 12 months of separation where i live)

I dont want in house separation. I don't want to punish her but i really don't want her in the house with me as long as she is seeing the OM. It seems to me I am at the point now that IF i push this and IF she comes crawling back that she HAS to agree to pretty draconian (at least at first) transparency, etc., because... i just CANT trust her.

Also wondering if, again, I need to try to pin down the OM (I know where I can find him this weekend) and let him know I know what's going on and that I do NOT consent to this and have NOT release my wife or if I need to, in some other respect, expose him and/or the A to remove some of the thrill and force it to END.

Please expound more on this:

"I can explain more, if you are confused.

I am not suggesting you back down from your boundary. I am saying don't back yourself into a corner. It happens when a newcomer acts on emotions and does not have enough grounding. I think you need to try to calm down and don't have any re-committing talks or drill her about her activities. You cannot make her behave. If you know she is not honoring your NC boundary, then the ball has been tossed to you. I guess you tried to pitch the ball back to her (re-commit). Don't let this become a pattern. If you feel you need more intel, that's up to you. Some H's have read or heard things that were difficult to erase from their minds........even after reconciliation."

I don't intend to let this become a pattern. I intend to defend my boundary. I would like more intel. Maybe she just slipped up after an ugly Friday and our talk last night will make a diff. Unlikely, I know, but I'd like to be sure. Can't imagine i'll hear anything more hurtful than I have already heard. I understand I have the ball, now. Any suggestions on exactly how to broach it with her? I know I will need to be "calm" and I am confident that I can do that, though I do hurt.

Any other thoughts would be helpful. This [censored], but I am committed to doing what needs to be done if there is any chance to save my marriage. Doesn't seem like "waiting it out" offers that chance, here.

Sandi-- Two more quick questions in addition to the foregoing on this as it appears I am coming to a pretty significant nexus point:

1) When confronting her, might I give her a "chance" to c"come clean" say, by saying we need to talk and then asking, as if I know (which I do) "how many times have you seen OM since you agreed not to..." Or is that just "moving the goalposts"?

2) WRT the angle with the kids, because she is SURE to ask: "What do we tell the kids"... "Are you going to tell the kids". Understanding that I shouldn't threaten her with the kids as a lever, is it the right course for me just to say "I think you should tell them the truth, that you have met someone else and are not interested in staying married to me" and/or "You can tell them what you want, but, if asked, I am not going to lie to my children." (Possibly adding my thoughts on "they deserve to know the [censored] former friend betrayed their father before entering a relationship with him"-- but I am not married to making this latter statment)

Thanks

Sandi-- Two more quick questions in addition to the foregoing on this as it appears I am coming to a pretty significant nexus point:

1) When confronting her, might I give her a "chance" to c"come clean" say, by saying we need to talk and then asking, as if I know (which I do) "how many times have you seen OM since you agreed not to..." Or is that just "moving the goalposts"?

2) WRT the angle with the kids, because she is SURE to ask: "What do we tell the kids"... "Are you going to tell the kids". Understanding that I shouldn't threaten her with the kids as a lever, is it the right course for me just to say "I think you should tell them the truth, that you have met someone else and are not interested in staying married to me" and/or "You can tell them what you want, but, if asked, I am not going to lie to my children." (Possibly adding my thoughts on "they deserve to know the [censored] former friend betrayed their father before entering a relationship with him"-- but I am not married to making this latter statment)

ThanksSandi-- Two more quick questions in addition to the foregoing on this as it appears I am coming to a pretty significant nexus point:

1) When confronting her, might I give her a "chance" to c"come clean" say, by saying we need to talk and then asking, as if I know (which I do) "how many times have you seen OM since you agreed not to..." Or is that just "moving the goalposts"?

2) WRT the angle with the kids, because she is SURE to ask: "What do we tell the kids"... "Are you going to tell the kids". Understanding that I shouldn't threaten her with the kids as a lever, is it the right course for me just to say "I think you should tell them the truth, that you have met someone else and are not interested in staying married to me" and/or "You can tell them what you want, but, if asked, I am not going to lie to my children." (Possibly adding my thoughts on "they deserve to know the [censored] former friend betrayed their father before entering a relationship with him"-- but I am not married to making this latter statment)

Thanks

And finally, one more question (and please note i have "shotgunned" three separate posts, here, because I am in extreme turmoil and also sleep-deprived):

How important is it (if at all) to tell her "I know what's going on." Is it equally effective (or more, or less) just to say "I can no longer go on with the way things are going on" and if she pushes for what that means just tell her the things she knows i know: going out with her bff; going to the OM's favorite hangout; being out all night; having no phone transparency... etc OR does failing to directly confront the affair give it "life" or "legitimacy" or maybe put this whole thing "on me" for not being able to deal.

thanks again, I know you are a very valued and busy member around here...

And, finally, to color what you tell me (yes, 4th post)... i absolutely 100% AM ready to end my marriage if this A does not stop. I am not saying I need to run out and file, and I would obviously like to reconcile and if there still ways to do that, then fine. BUT... I can no longer allow myself to be treated like this. It is far, far, far too painful, especially given my particular dynamics.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

this^^^ kind of sums up your most overall situation. I mean, keeping it simple

And this guy is a dirtbag. I am not sure I could take her back after she was "done" with a relationship with him in a year, or two or whatever.

Zero reason to worry about this^^ right now. Truly, don't even go to HOW you'd reconcile and THEN HOW you'd piece - which is harder, imo,

before you are even separated - it's a dark rabbit hole.

I need her to commit to leaving it.

well, we know.

But you need that before what?? Imo, she's not ending it on her own or she would have by now.

And in case no one else says it, I would not drink out of a glass and I would not drink more than a beer, if I were you. Period. It's not attractive or empowering.

Plus, if you do have a point about someone slipping you a micky, that's just too creepy to cope with.

It could have killed you too. I mean, wtf?

There are already things that I have heard that are going to be hard to "unhear". Logistically, I want to force the issue... my intention would be to bring it up to her tomorrow (after I have heard what she has to say to BFF or anyone else after our talk last night). I would just say "I know you haven't been respecting the no contact commitment you made to me. I told you I can't and won't live that way. I know we talked about working on the MR on Monday night, but I will not do so while you are maintaining contact with the OM and I will not live with you under the same roof while same. It is clear to me that you do not want to be in this MR right now, and I think you should start looking for another place to live." Only question is do I dump her clothes in the hallway as some on these forums have suggested?

^^^way too many words. Keep it to 3-4 sentences. And no, don't dump her clothes b/c it's undignified. And its what your sons will see YOU do.

Btw, I would expect that she'll move in with OM so please be prepared for that if you take this route. And have you spoken to a L or not? I'm still not clear. Reading this on your own online is not the same.

In answer to some of your questions:
--

i DID say I knew the A was more serious than either was letting on, though I relied on the original phoncon I overheard which, in reality, is enough. I also indicated I had gone to the bar a couple of times to seek out the OM (dumb, yes, I know, to spill that, but I was drunk).

change to "more sexual". And given the present givens, truly, don't drink at all for this ordeal.

It only helps for an hour and it can lead to more lasting damage than you may realize.

Re: What did she confess and demeanor? She "confessed" nothing. She knows I know she went to the OM's favorite bar, and she knows I know he is pretty much always there. She does not know I know for sure if she saw him there... I didn't force a response on that saying "I don't want to know... I do know things got pretty messed up Friday night, and I just want to know if going forward you can commit to working on this relationship under the terms discussed

the drinking and the goal post moving are not helping either of you.

(and we discussed some specific plans like counselling, which she agreed to try and which she had agreed to try last week and I dropped the ball,

meaning what?

talking regularly and, of course, NC with the OM) I asked her if she could truly commit to this going forward and she said "its the same thing we've already been doing." She was a bit evasive, not actually saying "I commit not to see him or contact him", which is something I had to kind of wring out of her the first time around.

having to "wring this out of her" doesn't bode well. You are not on the same page.

She was also initially reluctant to talk but ultimately we chatted quite a bit. She is very focused on things like "why would we want to hurt each other if we went our separate ways" and "the kids can be happy we don't want to present a fractured front because it will make it harder", and other things that make it pretty clear she is thinking primarily in terms of life after the MR. She brought up the subject of telling the kids in a roundabout way, but I did not bite. I have previously said I "will not lie" to them and that I think if she decides to leave to pursue another relationship that she should tell them so... She does NOT like that idea AT ALL because "we were already pretty much done."

she sees it as an "exit affair" and distinguishes it from an affair that happens in an otherwise functioning marriage but in which one party is weak or too tempted or just selfish.

She will justify this and you can expect that it will not change in her mind.

She has also become VERY revisionist again, ---
Re: Telling the kids. I have not "threatened to tell the kids." Though she seems to think I said at one point "I think I would want to tell the kids". I have THOUGHT to myself that if she pursues a relationship with this OM, my former friend who betrayed me by pursuing a MARRIED WOMAN, his FRIENDS wife, that MY boys, my SONS, MIGHT want to know that if they were going to be carrying on any kind of relationship with this lowlife. Would I be wrong to bring up that latter sentiment to her if she pushes the issue?

not sure what you mean "if she pushes the issue", but your boys will figure out a lot more than you imagine.

Sometimes, not always but sometimes, it's better to let them figure it out without calling their mom a name. Or implying it. Nothing I'm saying means you should lie to them if they actually ask.

And since you hold out hope for a recon, at least partly, always keep that long term goal in mind. Don't let anger take over if that's your goal and also even if it' snot your goal, your sons will recall how YOU behave now. How can YOU show are a "man of strength and honor"?

That ^^was the mantra of some DB men here, whom I still so admire. Some got their marriages back, others did not.

But they all retain their strength and honor to this day.
..

Re: Legal-- in my state I cant lose property rights if I move out, and my kids are 18 and nearly 17, so custody is not really an issue and wont be the time the D, if any, is final (it is 12 months of separation where i live)

I dont want in house separation. I don't want to punish her but i really don't want her in the house with me as long as she is seeing the OM.

agreed, of course. Bummer that OM knows way too much about the m. Did you share with him that your w wanted/needed more physicality and that you were not interested, so he knows all that too?

I'm not blaming, just asking. My guess is he justifies this too. Based on that info.

It seems to me I am at the point now that IF i push this and IF she comes crawling back that she HAS to agree to pretty draconian (at least at first) transparency, etc., because... i just CANT trust her.

IMO, She will either not agree, and then move down the street to OM's "guest room"

or she will comply, temporarily, and resent the hell out of you.

Any "conditions" you impose, must at least match some promises you make as a h.

Also wondering if, again, I need to try to pin down the OM (I know where I can find him this weekend) and let him know I know what's going on and that I do NOT consent to this and have NOT release my wife

Unusual wording. So do you think he believes you surrendered or "released" her to him, b/c of the intimacy issues you told him, or what? Also try not to refer to her in a way that sounds like she is your property for release or barter, in case it gets read that way.

I know you didn't mean it that way. Why not say you love her and you are still her h and you want to be her h and you have a family together ?

or if I need to, in some other respect, expose him and/or the A to remove some of the thrill and force it to END.

good luck with "force it to end"....to whom would you expose HIM?

Please expound more on this:

I am not suggesting you back down from your boundary. I am saying don't back yourself into a corner. It happens when a newcomer acts on emotions and does not have enough grounding. I think you need to try to calm down and don't have any re-committing talks or drill her about her activities. You cannot make her behave. If you know she is not honoring your NC boundary, then the ball has been tossed to you.

this^^^^

I guess you tried to pitch the ball back to her (re-commit). Don't let this become a pattern. If you feel you need more intel, that's up to you. Some H's have read or heard things that were difficult to erase from their minds........even after reconciliation."

I don't intend to let this become a pattern. I intend to defend my boundary. I would like more intel. Maybe she just slipped up after an ugly Friday and our talk last night will make a diff. Unlikely, I know, but I'd like to be sure. Can't imagine i'll hear anything more hurtful than I have already heard. I understand I have the ball, now. Any suggestions on exactly how to broach it with her? I know I will need to be "calm" and I am confident that I can do that, though I do hurt.

Any other thoughts would be helpful. This [censored], but I am committed to doing what needs to be done if there is any chance to save my marriage. Doesn't seem like "waiting it out" offers that chance, here.

agreed that waiting it out does not seem to be working. My guess is that it lessens the chance of recon in the long run.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

understood

Oh no!! I had just finished writing a book to your last post........and somehow I lost it.

. This happens a lot on my IPad, and it's so frustrating.

Anyway, I can't repeat all of that again, so will try to keep it shorter.

To clarify, I was not suggesting you wait out the affair. I was suggesting you take a few days to calm down before making big moves.

I

Quote:

f I thought it could be "waited out" I might try, but she is engaged in classic "cake eating", IMO, and thinks she can have the A, the marriage, and the kids. Waiting it out and just playing it cool and GAL-ing aren't, I think, going to cut it since I neglected her for several years and she would probably be just perfectly happy right now to have me step aside and do "nothing".

I disagree about the reason for playing it cool and GAL. One of the things that differentiates the WAW and WW is their motive behind their actions. In most of the WAW cases, their motive is welfare, protection and survival for their children and themselves. Not so with the WW, b/c her motive in everything is pure selfishness. It comes before her own children. Everything is about her. This is where I wrote too much in my first try, and don't have time to rewrite it. I'll narrow it down by saying if you were abusive, mean, hateful, spiteful, wicked, or too lazy to provide for your family and your W is trying to flee b/c of it.......then prove you have reformed. If you were a criminal, a pathological liar, addict, molester, etc............you bet she will need to see major changes before going back into a MR with you! However, those are not the norm in cases with a wayward wife. You can work till you turn purple trying to be what you think is the perfect H any woman would want.........and it will not change the heart of a wayward. B/C the problem that currently exist, lies within your W's wayward mindset and is playing out in rebellion. All that attention and time you want to lavish on a WW......will not work at drawing a wayward back into the MR. Once she is humble and owns responsibility for the pain she's caused and is remorseful.......then the couple has a shot at emotionally reconciling and the H will be able to give her more time and attention. I don't have the time to repeat what I have written many times about the differences in a WAW & WW and what a H with a WW should, and shouldn't, do.

Quote:

Also wondering if, again, I need to try to pin down the OM (I know where I can find him this weekend) and let him know I know what's going on and that I do NOT consent to this and have NOT release my wife or if I need to, in some other respect, expose him and/or the A to remove some of the thrill and force it to END.

Do you expect him to run when you say you have not given consent for their affair? Who would you expose him to?

Quote:

Only question is do I dump her clothes in the hallway as some on these forums have suggested?

Really? That's your only question? I don't think it's necessary. At least don't worry about something like that, until you see if she cooperates about moving out.

Remember, her attitude eventually tells the truth about the feelings in her heart.

DB coach suggested wait a few days, too. Going to be VERY hard. Sleeping VERY little. My stomach is like an acid ball. The Coach also suggested when having the "confrontation" to NOT directly address the "allegations" (as in "I know what you did" and even that I might not want to say "I know you broke your promise") but, rather, just saying "I can't keep doing what we're doing." Now, I am not sure if that second suggestion is going to be "tough" enough "tough love" in the case of my ww. Seems to me she needs to know I know about the A. But maybe not. My thought is I could risk looking weak, particularly since, while drinking, I made it known to BFF (without specifics) that I "know the A is more serious than she is letting on."

Thoughts?

Quote:

The Coach also suggested when having the "confrontation" to NOT directly address the "allegations" (as in "I know what you did" and even that I might not want to say "I know you broke your promise") but, rather, just saying "I can't keep doing what we're doing.

I agree with the coach's advice, and here's why. It's a about the words and the approach. The first example is a direct personal attack on her. Although it may be true, it's doubtful you will have positive results.......outside of her pretending to commit again. The second example is more open and includes more than just spotlighting her. It's about what you can't continue doing.

Quote:

My thought is I could risk looking weak, particularly since, while drinking, I made it known to BFF (without specifics) that I "know the A is more serious than she is letting on."

It doesn't have to make you look weak. Looking weak would be you falling apart and crying on her, whining about what she's doing, or begging her to stop seeing the OM. Making demands and raising your voice doesn't make you appear strong. Approaching her in a calm, self-confident, and collected tone about your concerns can actually look stronger and help maintain cooled emotions at lot better than charging at her.

Quote:

Now, I am not sure if that second suggestion is going to be "tough" enough "tough love" in the case of my ww.

You need to visualize how a confident man would tell his cheating wife that he can't continue going like things are going. You sound confident, you stand tall, look her dead in the eye, and speak in a low/soft volume. You don't cry, shout, or threaten.

Quote:

Seems to me she needs to know I know about the A. But maybe not. My thought is I could risk looking weak, particularly since, while drinking, I made it known to BFF (without specifics) that I "know the A is more serious than she is letting on."

I guess this is how men think. They always want their W to know she isn't getting anything over on him. Perhaps it makes some sense when it comes to cheating, only it doesn't work in favor of the H when he spills everything he knows. A large percent of betrayed H's want confrontation with their WW before anything else, just to let her know they know.

It only opens doors that call for more than the newcomer is prepared to do. But anyway, back to this concern of yours......... she knows that you know. okay? She's figured it out when you told her NC with OM. She doesn't know how much you know......and if you are smart, you will stay away from drinking, and her BFF. You don't tell everything you know at this point. I hope you'll listen to what I'm saying about this. That's what your coach was telling you. Take a few days to calm your nerves, and don't reveal how MUCH you know when you calmly approach her.

Thanks, Sandi, for the response. I will wait, pray, and buy some maalox and unisom.

But i should, yes, push HER to move out or start making such arrangements?

...meaning WHEN i do ultimately approach her with this, probably at the end of the weekend or early next week. who knows, maybe a miracle will happen by then. Im about due one...

Also, if my goal is to be somewhat imprecise in terms of accusations and keep it to "I just won't continue this way or under these circumstances", then how do I respond if she forces the conversation that way... as she is likely to do. She is very sharp/sassy, etc., and is likely to say "Well what do you mean by 'this way' and what do you specifically think the problem is" and/or "what do YOU think 'working on the relationship' should look like" (she has actually asked the latter question previously), which sort of responses necessarily force the conversation toward specifics about "what she is doing." Do I just keep it as simple as "I can't work on the marriage or cohabitate (or whatever) with someone who is leading the lifestyle you are leading" (to which she would probably say "what lifestyle is that" or "what do you think Im doing." And Im not just spinning out bad possibilities, here, this is how she often talks when confronted with something like this. At what point in the conversation do I default to "I am not comfortable with the relationship you ARE carrying on with the OM" (her answer: "what relationship, I agreed to no contact...") and then MY response is?....

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Hello hoosjim,

What did your DB Coach say about this the last time you spoke? Focus on those suggestions and let me know if you need to schedule another session.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

Sandi, I also wanted to circle back a bit on "not telling her everything I know. Generally, my approach will be "I just won't continue this way or under these circumstances", but then how do I respond if she forces the conversation toward what I know and/or what she has done. As I posted previously, this would be consistent with her pattern and her personality. She is likely to say "Well what do you mean by you can't continue'this way'" or "what do you specifically think the problem is" or even (as she has asked before) "why do you think this is some sort of torrid affair"AND "what do YOU think 'working on the relationship' should look like", both of which responses by her necessarily force the conversation toward specifics about "what she is doing" and why it isnt consistent with "working on the MR."

Do I just keep it as simple as "I can't work on the marriage or cohabitate (or whatever) with someone who is leading the lifestyle you are leading" (to which she would probably say "what lifestyle is that" or "what do you think I am up to.") And I guess I could just say "the going out all the time", "not knowing where you are", although she has gotten craftier and more secretive and some of the stuff i know, particularly specifics about the post-NC-agreement contact she's had, she doesn't know I know about (because it's the result of surveillance i don't care to reveal). At what point in the conversation do I fall back on"I am not comfortable with the relationship you ARE carrying on with the OM" (to which her answer would be: "what relationship? I agreed to no contact...") and then MY response is?....

Or do I just keep repeating "I am not comfortable with the way things are right now." or some variant?

Thanks, as always. I know you keep track of a lot of different folks on here and it must keep you very busy!

Cristy, I just had a session on Tuesday, and I have already contacted the office and there is a plan in place for further sessions. The coaching sessions are extremely helpful, but for me I find them to be MOST helpful when considered in combination with some of the experiences of the folks on the forum. I cant afford to have more than like one session a week and sometimes only one every couple of weeks, so it really, really helps me "keep with the program" to be able to get interim input on here, and so I am VERY thankful that you folks maintain these forums, which have proven to be an excellent supplementary/complimentary resource to the coaching sessions.

Quote:

But i should, yes, push HER to move out or start making such arrangements?

...meaning WHEN i do ultimately approach her with this, probably at the end of the weekend or early next week. who knows, maybe a miracle will happen by then. Im about due one...

I am hesitant to use the word "push", b/c that could imply something physical and you sure don't want it going there. I believe you said the law (where you live) does not affect either spouse that leaves the house.......is that correct?

We tell the faithful spouse he should not leave, if it affects him legally (should divorce and child custody come about). Unfortunately, we have seen many WW's refuse to leave and the poor betrayed H would be trapped in a house from hell, waiting for his WW to file or commit. So my advice is when you decide to approach her, to do it in as calm manner as possible. If you start in accusing her and telling her to "get out!"...........it may turn ugly and get out of hand quickly. You had better know for certain where you stand with the law. In some places, you can't kick a spouse of the house is in their name. Also, we have seen some WW's file false police reports that the H had threatened or they felt afraid of him, etc. So, it's important to have this talk at the right time (no more waking her up in the middle of the night) and to keep things calm. You need to be the one leading the conversation, and you need to stay in control of it. You don't do it by force.

You can choose a time when she seems to be in calm mood. You approach with one basic goal, and that is to hear her say she will commit to saving the MR. You won't accept her dancing all around the issues. You won't be led into some specific behavior of hers, at this time (which may prove to be very difficult). You are not going to give her precise examples or accusations, b/c it will definitely lead to other things and you still won't have a solid answer. So, you tell her you have no desire to be in a relationship under the current conditions. If she says, "What conditions?", just look her in the eyes and say, "I don't want a separation, but I cannot stay in a MR without complete trustworthiness and respect from my spouse". If she says, "And just what am I doing that makes you feel so disrespectful?"(or something similar to this), you say, "We both know what's going on, so we can either commit to working through the issues......or we can separate/divorce. Either way, we cannot continue with how things are now". If she starts up with something else, hold up you hand in the stop position....and tell her, "I am not going to get off into all of the specifics until I hear you commit to saving our M, or tell me you won't. If you say you won't commit, then we can prepare to take the next step". If she asks for time to think it over, tell her "no". Her taking time to decide if she wants to be M to you? No, b/c she will claim she still doesn't know what she wants.

I am not that good when it comes to telling people how to say word for word. Your coach may disagree with my suggestions. IMHO, you need to present yourself in a calm, controlled voice, steady, and with self confidence. Don't approach her as if you are her judge & executioner. The more you accuse her (especially specific things), the more wiggle room she'll take to twist & turn things and get you off track and turn it into a fight. Before giving you an answer, she may ask what you expect from her "if" she commits to the M. Then you can say, "To do whatever is necessary to save our relationship".

Here's the thing. You are already worried about her craftiness and all the things she might say. It will rob you of your confidence, if you focus too much on all of that. You know what's going on. You are not required to show proof or argue the case. She knows the truth, too. She has lied, betrayed, and disrespected you. All you want from her is a commitment to do whatever it takes to save the MR. And if she is unwilling to save the MR, then she should leave the marital home. If she says is not ready to commit, then you could say, "If you don't want to be in the M, then I feel it would be better for all of us if you lived somewhere besides the marital home".

Don't put yourself into the position of "explaining" what you mean to her, b/c that gives her a chance to harp on specifics. Stay in the lead, and maintain a steady voice. Do NOT try to put words into her mouth! Wait for her to say it herself. Every time she tries to skirt around it, bring her back to giving you an answer. Don't start trying to out yell her. If it gets out of hand, then leave.

Whatever answer she gives, it would probably be best to wait until the next day, before having further discussion about the relationship, unless this all took place early in the day. It's very emotional (even if there are no tears or yelling). In another couple of days, she might even change her mind, IDK. But I'm pretty sure she'll want specifics, b/c she wants to know how much you know. Don't play that game. Never reveal how much you know, or how you got your information.

Thanks, Sandi. Now, the only question is: Is she still seeing the guy. We had a talk on Monday, as I posted earlier. Recommitted to the no contact... I had not pinned her down on whether or not she had seen him though I know she had. We also agreed to try counselling. Yes, I know, that is supposed to be premature until after NC and after the grieving period and true remorse. This counselor is a good one, though, I had a couple of sessions with her solo, and she knows about the A. She thinks she can facilitate "ending it". I am not so sure. I could tell from the first session that my W (who is now in full-on revisionist mode-- "I had doubts about us from the very beginning"... "I have known it is completely over for a while now") is thinking that this will be a relatively painless path to exit the M. I intend to keep the DB going, however, and to continue "data collecting." If I find evidence she is still seeing the guy (and I somewhat strongly suspect she is and has just gone DEEP underground) my intent/plan is still to pull the plug and say "no more counselling, no more cohabitating" as long as you are seeing him. OTOH, next counselling is in 2 weeks, where we are to have several sessions in one day (both individual and together). Counselor thinks she can help end it, but... Idunno. The W could just as easily say "okay, im ending it" and then not do so. Anybody think I need to give it the two weeks and see what the counselling brings, regardless? I am of the opinion I need to stick to my guns on this, if it turns out she is still seeing him.

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

Thanks, Sandi. Now, the only question is: Is she still seeing the guy. We had a talk on Monday, as I posted earlier. Recommitted to the no contact... I had not pinned her down on whether or not she had seen him though I know she had. We also agreed to try counselling. Yes, I know, that is supposed to be premature until after NC and after the grieving period and true remorse.

First, boundaries are about future contact, "from this day forward" so are you trying to set her up and test her or what? I mean, either enforce the NC rule now going forward or tell her she already broke it...what's with the trapping?

Second, I don't know about how all "that is supposed" to go with such hard fast rules. "premature...until after Grieving and true remorse"...What?

the "true remorse" - meaning, wherein she realizes the depth of your pain??

Um, that may not ever really come, b/c remember, she felt years of rejection from you so her pain is what consumed her for a long time...

I think we cannot get in their heads and hearts and demand they think or feel something, as "conditions precedent" to forward movement ...all we can do is express and enforce our boundaries and needs clearly, and do our own work.

-

I intend to keep the DB going, however, and to continue "data collecting." If I find evidence she is still seeing the guy (and I somewhat strongly suspect she is and has just gone DEEP underground) my intent/plan is still to pull the plug and say "no more counselling, no more cohabitating" as long as you are seeing him.

hasn't this^^ already been said? Isn't that what just happened?

OTOH, next counselling is in 2 weeks, where we are to have several sessions in one day (both individual and together). Counselor thinks she can help end it, but... Idunno. The W could just as easily say "okay, im ending it" and then not do so. Anybody think I need to give it the two weeks and see what the counselling brings, regardless? I am of the opinion I need to stick to my guns on this, if it turns out she is still seeing him.

So The only issue to you is whether you need to enforce the last boundary or this one?

Does it matter? I mean, you have to enforce something or it'll keep happening.

And that's no boundary at all.

*make sure you are also clear that marriage to you would be better/different than before, b/c as you recall, she had legit issues and unmet needs for a long time.

I am not defending her A but definitely want you to recall how this all originate and not to lose sight of your overall goals.

If the only thing you focus on is her A, you won't grow from this ordeal. And then you're not getting your "money's worth" from this pain.

make sense?

I am getting confused about the days you reference in your post. The last time I posted, I was trying to address your concerns about what your coach said about approaching your W with percise accusations.......and you were so anxious to address her........and you were asking me a lot of questions. I don't if you even read my response, b/c you come back talking about her re-committing to NC Monday. Okay, so why were you getting so anxious about what to say if she says such & such.......and about accusations, etc. You've got my head spinning!

Btw, let me back up or try to clarify seeing a MC with a WW, b/c sometimes I fail to give an explanation. As long as she is still in contact with the OM, it is my opinion that marriage counseling will not be successful (based on all that consumes a wayward). If she ends the affair and all types of contact with OM, then I think MC may have a little shot. If she stops having secret messaging with other new so-called male "friends", stops acting like a girl gone wild, and cooperates with her H in some form of transparency, I think MC has a better shot. If she has come through the withdrawals (at least the first hardest weeks), there's a greater chance at MC succeeding. Feeling remorseful, IMHO, helps her considerably, b/c her heart won't be quite as contrary and hardened against her H. There will still be tons of work to do, but once she feels remorseful.....she usually is a bit more humble about facing her areas of failure in the M. Do you see what I mean? It is hard to counsel a couple when one of them doesn't want to think about giving their MR another chance.

I'm very confused about what "NC" requirement was agreed to and when and how it was defined, etc.

Also not sure what MC is doing, though you say you like this one.

I mostly agree with Sandi but am unclear on one thing. I am not sure how far you will get expecting your w to feel remorse when she probably does not yet.

I think She felt justified in having the A b/c of the intimacy issues you have long admitted (and which I admire you for admitting & working on, btw).

I guess I don't get why your w would suddenly feel such a fast & seismic change of heart towards the m, when you more or less said you had both checked out of it.

That's a pretty spectacular transformation to expect and require.

Can you elaborate on this?

Sandi, thanks for checking in.

I did read your response to me, and took yours (and others') advice to not act in the heat of the moment. I am still very hurt/upset/angry etc. about my W's breaking of the no contact last weekend. Given what I knew, I was (and am still) ready to "call her on it" but in the more measured tone you and my DB coach suggested. BUT... last weekend was complicated. And ugly. The night out where we were all drinking started out well, and was only when I and the BFF became somewhat intoxicated that things went south. Alot was said, then, I coming off as not level-headed at all (which I am sure was relayed to my W), and then W had to take me home early from the bar, I passed out and got sick. While this is and never has been a pattern with me, there are a couple of very painful/sad memories for her of when we were much younger where I had too much and acted poorly toward her in what should have been happy situations (once when she threw a birthday party for me on my 30th) and she has brought those memories up in our recent discussions as being particularly hard for her. While I was never an alcoholic or abusive (As that term is commonly used) or anything like that, i DID recognize that that lifestyle and heavy drinking was not a great idea and so I distanced myself far far away from that for many years. Only recently have I dipped my toe back into "going out" on the bar scene, somewhat because this is something she is doing and seems to enjoy so much. At any rate, I clearly was over the line last weekend and pushed her buttons. Not that that excused her going to the OM's bar, seeing him, and then going by his house for an hour later, BUT... I kind of feel like I'd like to give her another chance, especially after we talked on Monday (after she had gone out to meet with him again during the day) and talked about having a "do-over". I did not, on Monday, tell her what I knew about seeing the OM on
Friday and Monday, only that I knew (which was common knowledge by all at this point) that she had gone to that bar on Friday after I passed out and had not come back in until 5AM. (BFF says they were getting breakfast at diner, which is possible, but I know for a fact she went by OM's house before coming home.) I do not know what is going on NOW, this week, with her. She has had a couple of opportunities to see the OM, situations that look a little suspicious, and it is possible that she is on to my sometimes tracking and is working around it, because I have not been able to discern. It is also obviously possible that they are contacting each other by phone somehow or at her workplace phone. If I find out or get confirmation that she is still seeing him (and maybe even if the suspicious opportunities persist-- I have to decide what I can "live with") I will confront her as we have discussed and as my coach (and you) have advised.

As to the counselling, that, too, is complicated. This counselor seems to think she can "bring spouses in affairs back to the marriage"--- she uses individual as well as couples therapy and wants to meet alone with my W... no word yet on whether or not W will agree. We are to start "intensive" sessions (four in one day... some individual some joint) in two weeks. I would assume that the individual counselling might be effective in this regard(?) but I do not know. MLC and one or two others on this board, as well as my best friend (who seems to think I would be crazy to not accept my W's willingness to enter counselling-- but who also is still convinced that the A is not really an "A"-- he is my W's BFF's soon to be ex husband, remember and "trusts" her) who think counselling wouldn't hurt. I will note that I have heard my W telling her friend on two occasions "Some days I really feel like I want to try to work it out but then I get doubts or get home and think 'no'."(this is to the BFF who knows about the A). FWIW, BFF also told me, before our convo turned ugly on Friday that "she wants to try to find a way back to you" but also that "you may have to let her go." I also have it secondhand from another friend that W was irritated at me that she earlier voiced, as she thought, a willingness to go to therapy but I opined that either she was "too broken" or not ready. Not sure I ever said anything like that other than that I didn't see the point while the OM was in the picture. Anyway, that's where we are with therapy. If I get any kind of indication/proof she is still contacting OM, I am going to pull the plug on that, though, and put everything on hold. I may still do it anyway. I am going to give it a couple of days, see what our talks bring. But the regular going out with the girls over the past couple of weeks is not something I am sure I can live with under the current state of "trust".

Okay. The post you previously sent, just had me really confused. When a H starts sounding as if he's about to make a sudden decision out of his emotional state, which would basically be a very bad move (b/c he is not well grounded in DB).......then I am typing my fingers to the bone trying to help by answering the questions he has just asked. So does this mean I need not worry that you are going to charge at her like an angry bull?

FWIW, I have seen situations where there were too many sources of advice. All forums, posters, counselors, marriage books, marriage coaches, family and friends are not going to give the same advice. How does a person decide who has the best advice? Do you cherry pick the advice you like? Some people can be left feeling very confused and emotionally drained with so many different sources of advice. I certainly don't blame anyone for seeking the best help possible, I'm just not sure how you would know which advice to apply. After all, some good advice is often not what we want to hear.

Well, I hope you can keep a level head about you. I encourage you to stay away from the bar scenes, since drinking has a bad affect on you.

I am not going to charge at her like an angry bull. I can do this calmly and confidently.

I definitely hear you on the "too many voices." I find yours and other's writings on the WW dynamic VERY compelling... and I am almost positive that is what I have here with my W. She definitely is falling into that trap of "the OM is my soulmate" (planning or at least talking of a future together, etc) and the more entwined she comes with him the more distant/dismissive of me she is. The "best" we were post BD was the three or four weeks she distanced herself from him. As soon as she resumed regular contact, its been all downhill for us. OTOH, there are other voices which make "sense" to me as well, some of which are faith-related, that urge more restraing: be loving, dont be controlling, she wants to come back to you and will if you give her time/space. There is a part of me that kind of thinks God wants to make this as tough a situation as he can and then show what he can do by resurrecting our MR. There have been alot of strange signs and synergies that I may or may not have gone in to here in the past. Problem is, while I am a man of faith, I cannot rightly discern here if God would want me to "put her out", or if he would want me stand pat and wait.

On balance, the "tough love" approach toward WWs seems to make the most sense, but... Starting down that road for me DEFINITELY turned up the frigidity dial on my W. I understand that that can be expected but, still not easy to experience.

Then there is the counselling angle. I am right there with you (as I am on the general principle of co-habitating with an unrepentant WW) that a strong, confident man would not generally consent to pretend to work on the marriage via counselling, potentially offering the WW an easy "out", while the A is still ongoing, and that pursuing such counselling is likely to provide little if any benefit. Still, my W has indicated once or twice a desire, somewhere, to "find her way back" (though, Friday, at our first preliminary session she did say "Ive known its completely over for a long time now"-- which is significantly different than what she told both me AND the OM in January when she said she was only "80% sure it was over"-- IOW her revisionism is getting more pronounced.) At any rate, I cant help wondering if a good individual counselor could convince her of the error of her cheating ways and/or convince her to cut contact. I mostly think it would be best to force the issue myself "Im not going to continue counselling under these circumstances,.." but... what if this counselor is as good as I think she might be? What if I was (as I kind of believe) led to her through divine intervention. Would I be jumping the gun? Of course, even if there is a divine hand here it work, it could just as easily be my role to play in it to take a stand on my no contact boundary before proceeding. Tough. Too many voices. At the end of the day, though, I think it is going to be necessary for me to take action on the boundary violation. Intel from the past weekend is starting to point in the direction that she saw OM once and possible twice more.

Well, she definitely (okay, say 95% chance) saw the OM Friday night on way out of town when she was supposed to be with BFF. Not sure what they did but they met at a bar and there are three and a half unaccounted for hours. There was also a side-trip Saturday, unaccounted for by her (I talked to her casually about her weekend with girlfriends) which could pretty much only have been to meet him for breakfast on Saturday. Also have pretty hard confirmation now that the BFF is enabling and being a liaison.

I am done with this. Not spitting angry because I anticipated it and was already pretty sure it was happening, but I think something definitely needs to change unless I am going to assume her heart will soften towards me eventually and try to just "ride it out". Sandi, all of your advice, as well as DB coach, on confronting her, remaining calm, not going into specifics about the A, etc., seems sound.

My one question is this: What if she says "yes, of course I will commit to saving the MR, that is why I agreed to try counselling" or something of the sort (although her stance at the first session was that she thinks its pretty much over and has for a while and is doing this, MC, to "find out if there is any way she would WANT to try to save the MR")...and then just continues seeing the OM, undoubtedly even deeper underground now since she will be effectively tipped to my surveillance? She has promised me now twice that there would be "NC" most recently a week ago tomorrow. There was definite contact twice last weekend (Mothers day weekend) which I didn't call her on and which she does not know I know for sure about (though she knows I suspect as I know she went to the OM's hangout with BFF). There have now been two "dates" THIS weekend, which occurred after her most recent reiteration of her promise. Doesnt seem she can be trusted at this point. She can say she is committed to going through the counselling but... she said that before and said she would commit to no contact and has continued to date the guy. At this point shouldn't I either be a) demanding some sort of additional transparency (which wont work if she is really determined) and restrictions (no overnighters, no going out with BFF) which, as MLC notes, will undoubtedly result in resentment or evasion or both OR b) just saying "its clear this is not going to work out, I dont know if I can trust you any longer and I think you should leave the marital home."

The whole narrative/dialogue you propose makes perfect sense, and I am right there until the end. At that point, I am uncertain how, as you suggest, getting her to "commit to saving the marriage" is all that helpful at this point as an "endgame". She already has kind of promised to do that, at least in the respect of no contact, seeking counselling, and regular talks between us to try to work out or problems... and yet she has continued to see the OM.

Thanks as always for all your help.!

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My one question is this: What if she says "yes, of course I will commit to saving the MR, that is why I agreed to try counselling"

Doesnt seem she can be trusted at this point. She can say she is committed to going through the counselling but... she said that before and said she would commit to no contact and has continued to date the guy

I'm not going down that road again about what if she says--- you say. Besides, you've answered your own question. At this point, she cannot be trusted.

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At this point shouldn't I either be a) demanding some sort of additional transparency (which wont work if she is really determined) and restrictions (no overnighters, no going out with BFF) which, as MLC notes, will undoubtedly result in resentment or evasion or both OR b) just saying "its clear this is not going to work out, I dont know if I can trust you any longer and I think you should leave the marital home."

Well, she's not a teenager, so I doubt grounding her will have much effect.

Let me explain how this looks to me. First, you were busting a gut to confront her. Then you heard about boundaries and couldn't wait to "use" it on your WW. When she would not actually come out and say she would no longer contact OM, you tried to put the words in her mouth......or as you said, "wring it out of her".

Then, (if I have the story correct) you were hot to confront her again. You were advised to calm down, and not jump into the deep water before you knew how to swim. The place you currently find yourself comes about when the H does not have a clue to what he's doing.......and pretty much makes a mess out of the confrontation. You grabbing bits & parts from various sources and nothing is working. You want the magic dialog that will snap her out of waywardness and make her commit to the MR.

I see the H as having one good chance with the confrontation speech about NC, transparency, & commitment. (That's why he needs to know his stuff before opening his mouth). If he goofs the first time, then in some situations he might make the second one more convincing......but after that, he may as well shut up, for all the good it's doing. When she does not follow through with what you presented in the confrontation, what will you do? Have another one?

In your case, I really don't see any more confrontations succeeding, at this time. She did not honor your NC with OM boundary, and somewhere in there you said something about transparency to her..........so are you going to draw another line in the sand and dare her to cross it again? Are you going to demand that she commits to the M? Frankly, at this point......she is not listening. You could make all the demands you want, but as long as she can slip around with OM.....she will not heed your demands.

IMHO, when the WW has a close enabler, and she is drinking and staying out all night, spending weekends away from home, etc............it is more difficult for her nice-guy H to get very far on words alone. Now I don't know exactly everything that has been said, but according to you, there have been two times that she agreed to NC. She did not heed the agreement. For you to confront again and demand commitment & transparency now.....will make you appear desperate and controlling.

The options I see left are (1) call your DB coach (why are you "saving" the calls when you need the session now?); (2) Drop the rope; (3) Try the miracle MC; or (4) Physically separate. Perhaps someone else can offer something better, but I just don't think another confrontation is the answer.

Did I really blow it that badly? Seems to me that its just that the place I am at now is "take action". What I am wondering is, how do I take action without "going into specifics" with her. I am NOT looking for another line to be drawn which she can cross. I KNOW i am in a tight spot with a woman that cant' be trusted and a bff enabler. Seems like its time for me to enforce my boundary and ask her to move out. To this point, I have still not yet "confronted" her about any of her contacts with OM or indicated I think she has violated them.

Is there really no utility at this point in saying "I told you I wont continue to live this way... I will not live with this situation/open marriage/lack of respect... I think you should move out of the marital home" and then going full last resort or beyond the last resort technique.

I am really sorry because I seem to have ticked you off, and I am just trying to do the best I can.
Perhaps it is just that we are talking past each other here-- to reiterate, I am not looking to set additional boundaries or "reiterate" mine or get her to "recommit".
We had ONE "you must cut contact" convo that included giving up the cheater phone and, yes, she was somewhat surly about it but I thought that was to be expected?
Then, after the "bad weekend" we had one follow on to say "look, lets both have a do-over, it was a bad weekend and we both probably messed up" (very true in both our cases) without specifying any boundaries being crossed

Now, she's violated the boundary, and pretty clearly so. I am ready to enforce it, and to end the marriage if necessary. I can't go on like this-- it is just too painful. I would just really like to know if you think there is no utility at this point to ENFORCING THE BOUNDARY and, if so, how, if you don't think I should have a conversation about it? I can't have her evicted and I shouldn't, apparently, dump her clothes in the hallway, so I am going to have to say SOMETHING to her.
I was just trying to get some input on how best to say that. The guidance the DB coach and you had given me seemed sound: "dont go into specifics on what you know", just "reiterate that I can't keep going on that way" and that "I think she should move from the marital home since she is not interested in commiting to work on the MR."
I am NOT interested in getting her to "recommit" right now because clearly she is NOT going to do so, at least not in any sense that includes cutting contact with the OM.
I was just looking for a 1) LITTLE guidance on how to deflect her attempts to find out exactly "what I knew" (which you helped with, thanks) and 2) to clarify that my endgame here is NOT at this point to seek a recommitment from her but to indicate she should move out. I only asked about additional assurances/restrictions because YOU were indicating that I should be trying to get her to "commit to saving the marriage." I KNOW i already tried that, didn't do the BEST job of it, but don't think I completely botched it, and now want to enforce that boundary I established.
Maybe when she realizes she is losing me and the boys it will hit home with her how harmful it is what she is doing.

I really am sorry because it seems I am suffering from a combination of 1) not doing things as best I could have and
2) not communicating on here very well.
Please accept my apologies because I really appreciate your help and the time you put in on this site.
This is very, very, very hard for me right now.

25yrsmlc thanks.

I am NOT expecting any such seismic shift. i KNOW we have VERY SERIOUS issues and a LONG track record of neglect here. Even without the A, I would consider us a pretty long shot to reconcile. But, nonetheless, that is what I am hoping and praying (and trying very hard to work) for. WITH the OM in the picture, however, I think we have precisely zero chance. It is, I am confident, as you have said that she views this as an "exit affair", and also that she sees the OM as her "soulmate and one true chance at happiness" (which is actually pretty laughable if you know the individual involved), and that she is, in all likelihood, looking at MC (or whatever else) as an easy and painless way out that gets her to the OM's arms without losing anything.

It is for that reason that I am trying very hard to do whatever is necessary (even though I know that in the end I cannot "change" her and that she has to "change" herself) to protect myself and my family from the "A" and, in the process, hopefully create an environment/dynamic more conducive to her coming to her senses and coming back (perhaps when she realizes she will be losing her family and MR?) I know and do not expect that this will happen all at once or even quickly. WE have a lot of work to do, even notwithstanding the A and the OM. I just don't see much point in doing that work as long as the OM is in the picture. As long as he's around, seems to me any "work" is just the steps she thinks she has to take to get through the MR so she can be with the OM.

Which is why I think I just need to pull the plug: "I told you I won't go on living under these circumstances. Since you are not interested in respecting my boundaries and committing to work full time on the MR, I think you should move out of the marital home."

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Seems to me that its just that the place I am at now is "take action". What I am wondering is, how do I take action without "going into specifics" with her. I am NOT looking for another line to be drawn which she can cross

Perhaps we are not understanding what each other is meaning. When you spoke of specifics another time, it was in conjunction with accusations and your coach had warned against it, and I did, too. So are you speaking about confronting her of not honoring the
NC boundary........or, are saying you will take action, but want to tell her the specifics of why you are acting?

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I KNOW i am in a tight spot with a woman that cant' be trusted and a bff enabler. Seems like its time for me to enforce my boundary and ask her to move out. To this point, I have still not yet "confronted" her about any of her contacts with OM or indicated I think she has violated them.

This is confusing. You gave her the NC, then she broke it. You said to have a do-over and she broke it again. Are you referring to not having confronted her before, or since, since the do-over? Are you wanting to confront about other things? I am trying to understand your point.

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Is there really no utility at this point in saying "I told you I wont continue to live this way... I will not live with this situation/open marriage/lack of respect... I think you should move out of the marital home" and then going full last resort or beyond the last resort technique

.

I think I've already said yes to the last resort. You don't have to be separated to do to the last resort. You know that, right? However, you never tell your spouse you are going to use the last resort. Unless you told her that you will plan to separate, there are a couple of things you could try.

You seem hung up on confrontations. You have already told her you wouldn't continue to live this way, and she never blinked an eye. She continued seeing OM. So you want to repeat it?

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I am really sorry because I seem to have ticked you off, and I am just trying to do the best I can.

I am not ticked. I am frustrated. Apparently, we have failed to communicate effectively.

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Perhaps it is just that we are talking past each other here-- to reiterate, I am not looking to set additional boundaries or "reiterate" mine or get her to "recommit

Maybe you are right. Then what are you looking for, by having a convo with her?

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We had ONE "you must cut contact" convo that included giving up the cheater phone and, yes, she was somewhat surly about it but I thought that was to be expected?

Yes

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Now, she's violated the boundary, and pretty clearly so. I am ready to enforce it, and to end the marriage if necessary. I can't go on like this-- it is just too painful. I would just really like to know if you think there is no utility at this point to ENFORCING THE BOUNDARY and, if so, how, if you don't think I should have a conversation about it? I can't have her evicted and I shouldn't, apparently, dump her clothes in the hallway

Look, you said you had a boundary of NC with OM, right? So when you stated that boundary to your W, what was in the back of your head that you would do if she did not honor it? I am asking you what do you see as "enforcing" the boundary. Is it separation?

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I was just trying to get some input on how best to say that. The guidance the DB coach and you had given me seemed sound: "dont go into specifics on what you know", just "reiterate that I can't keep going on that way" and that "I think she should move from the marital home since she is not interested in commiting to work on the MR."

Yes, I remember. And as I recall, you had other questions about how to respond to certain scenarios, and I tried to answer them (quite a long post). And then you came back with a post that threw me off balance, and I was re-reading your thread, trying to break through my confusion in the span of time ( the weekends, etc.) After a thread is over a week old, it is helpful to put the date of the month, instead of referring to Monday, last Friday, etc.

I am wondering if you are confused about confrontation and setting boundaries. Maybe it is finally breaking through my skull. You stated your boundary of NC with OM......but you never really confronted her. Is that what's bothering you?

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I am NOT interested in getting her to "recommit" right now because clearly she is NOT going to do so, at least not in any sense that includes cutting contact with the OM

What do you want?

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I was just looking for a 1) LITTLE guidance on how to deflect her attempts to find out exactly "what I knew" (which you helped with, thanks)

You are welcome.

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and 2) to clarify that my endgame here is NOT at this point to seek a recommitment from her but to indicate she should move out.

Okay, I think I am understanding now.

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I only asked about additional assurances/restrictions because YOU were indicating that I should be trying to get her to "commit to saving the marriage."

I think you may be referring to the post where I wrote out what you could say if she said such & such, without accusing her of specifics. That's the post I asked if you had read it.

I

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really am sorry because it seems I am suffering from a combination of 1) not doing things as best I could have and
2) not communicating on here very well.

That's how I feel about my failure to communicate with you. Sometimes, it just takes another person to say it in a different way, in order to fully get it. It's not just you, either. Occasionally, other posters confuse something I've said. Easy to do in forums, I think.

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Maybe when she realizes she is losing me and the boys it will hit home with her how harmful it is what she is doing.

I hope so.

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Please accept my apologies because I really appreciate your help and the time you put in on this site.

No apologies necessary. If my words have an angry tone, it is not my intentions.

The first time I read this post, it made no sense to me. I guess you haven't been able to follow what I mean, either.

I've just gone over this response to check for typos, when it dawned on me what you are saying about having a convo and addressing the specifics. At least, I think it did. Makes me want to delete this post and start over......but it's too long.

Thanks again, Sandi. I know you help many, many people here, so I don't want to monopolize you. Let me try to summarize where i THINK i am:

1) Late April/ Early May, we have 2 or three maybe talks mostly related to the "cheater phone" she has as well as the increasing realization that she is back in touch with the OM. I tell her I do not want an open marriage and will not share her and tell her I am not going to cohabitate with someone who is seeing another man and that we need to reach some sort of resolution. She interprets this as me saying I need her to give me a "thumbs up or thumbs down" on US, which she interprets as "pressure". The talks are, admittedly, a little muddled and we DO talk about the OM, which irritates her. This is followed by:

1) 5/5. I clarify with her that I am not demanding a yes/no on reconcilliation with us, but I DO need an answer, right away, on contact with the OM, and I set a firm boundary of NC with the OM on 5/5. She agreed, though she was a little word-gamy and reluctant, IMO ("I will not go to the bar, I am getting rid of the cheater phone, I will not seek anything out with him") Me: "I am not sure I heard you right... are you saying "you will not have any contact and will avoid any contact he tries to initiate" HEr: "Yes." She was also clearly resentful about it and immediately took to sleeping in guest room for about a week. She does get rid of the cheater phone (which had been provided by the bff).

2) 5/7 and 5/9, I think, she makes "drive bys" on the OM's bar, but otherwise seems to be keeping to "no contact". She is sullen and sulky.

3) 5/12-- The infamous "dinner and drinks" with her and BFF where all three of us had too much to drink, bff pushed my buttons ("you don't trust me, you think Im a bad influence, etc etc") So I confront her: "I know what's going on [no specifics] and I know it seems to happen an awful lot when you are involved" and some other stuff, but that is the most important for these purposes. I didn't make any reference to the drive-bys or insinuate I knew of anything since "no contact"-- remember we are only a week into NC at this point. Later that night, I pass out and get sick, my W calls BFF for help ("I feel trapped", supposedly) and bff gets her an uber to the OM's bar where she also hangs out. They stay till close, and at some point my W ends up at OMs house for an hour and doesn't come home until 5AM. (Incidentally I had feared this possibility-- OM is divorced but has teenage children in his custody who are in the dark about the A-- with good reason they go to school with my kids. I knew they would be out of town visiting their Mom on Mothers Day. Oh well, I shouldn't have gotten drunk.)

4) W hungover most of Saturday. Goes to meet BFF for "mothers day date" where they have dinner (check) and go to hotel to spend night together (check also). She could easily have hooked up with OM somehow after going to hotel but I have no way of knowing one way or the other. She DID go out dressed to kill.

5) 5/15-- W plays hookie from work (kind of, she had some comp time), goes to meet OM for an hour or so before all the rest of us get home from work/school.

6)5/15 (PM) She and I talk about the weekend. I apologize for being drunk Friday (I had not reviewed my surveillance for Monday at this point), tell her "I know you went back out after I passed out and didn't come back until 5 AM" (She had previously told me she just went out to retrieve the car-- BFF confirmed with me that W had come to the bar, and I heard W come in at 5 AM.) I knew she had gone to OM's house but did not confront her with this nor did I tell her I knew whether or not OM had been at the bar nor that I knew about Monday meeting. We agreed we needed a "do over" on the evening and talked about "what we were doing". It was a long talk and we agreed to have MR talks at least twice a week. I said that I was not going to micro-manage her but that I expected her to still respect my limits on contacting OM and she said she would "keep doing so."

7) 5/19-- After we have our first session with counselor (where the A does not come up--its mostly introductory) She heads out of town for "girls weekend" she'd had previously planned including bff. Stops for 3 and a half hour meeting at different bar (and, for part of time bff but at some point they split up) with OM. They had been planning at meeting at an even more distant bar but changed at last minute. she travel on to spend night with bff

8) 5/20-- she is to go to concert this day with bff and other friend. In middle of morning, and after already having had breakfast with girlfriends, she drives 45 minutes north (back toward OM's locale) to a Breakfast diner where she spends nearly an hour, and then drives back. She told me all about her weekend, including meals, and didnt mention this one. I assume it was a meet up with OM but cannot verify for certain.

9) She returns home on 5/21, and very surprisingly does not do any detours to check in with OM, though she has plenty of opportunity. He could've just been busy and she HAD just gotten two "fixes."

Other color: She has a couple of times indicated to bff or another friend that she "thinks about trying to come back to me" or "thinks she would try to work things out" but then gets home an thinks... "no". FWIW, bff told me "she wants to come back to you" but also "you might have to let her go" and "I advised her against starting this A" (possible, I suppose, but she is certainly currently enabling.) She had also brought up counselling a couple of times and my response had been to put it off based 1) on my (mistaken) understanding that she had wanted to do individual counselling first and 2) that with the OM in the picture (and I had told her this once before) I didn't see the point in counselling. MY best friend thinks I should be jumping at the chance. The marriage counsellor, with whom I had had a solo session, thinks I should have confronted her more fully about the affair earlier, but thinks getting us both into counselling now could actually be productive and break her out of the affair if W gets a "neutral" perspective on it. W seems to like/trust the MC at first glance, but W is also EXTREMELY revisionist at this point about our MR and history, and VERY distant towards me (which my best friend and my wife's bff attribute to me previously having been "controlling"-- which is code for trying to get her to stop seeing the OM)

My stance on all of this: she cant be trusted and has clearly violated the NC agreement she gave me as well as my boundary. I am not looking for a "recommitment" though I would somewhat expect her to offer one "This time it will be different" or else for her to fly off the handle "have you been monitoring me? I thought you would trust me?" Either way, I think I need to just tell her "this isn't working, you need to move out." My only hesitancy comes from this MC we have started. She actually called me today and discussed it and seemed interested/engaged by it. OTOH, there is, in my mind, little reason to pursue it if OM is still int he picture, although this counselor seems to think she can talk sense to my W. I am inclined, however, to put it all on hold. Maybe the loss/shock will eventually bring her to her senses. I don't think she believes I will dump her. In fact I know she doesn't

Thanks for writing all that out again.

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She actually called me today and discussed it and seemed interested/engaged by it. OTOH, there is, in my mind, little reason to pursue it if OM is still int he picture, although this counselor seems to think she can talk sense to my W

.

When you say "she called", you are referring to your W, right?

Okay, think of the alternatives. If you called for a separation, would it bother you that you did not go to the MC to see if there was something she could have done to reach your W? What was your opinion of the MC? Did the MC talk to you alone, and give some type of outline as to how she works with couples in this type of situation?

Before you decide about going to more sessions with this MC, I encourage you to please call your DB Coach. Not to get his advice on seeing the MC, but to hear his recommendations regarding your W still seeing the OM.

If your gut is telling you to try this MC as some type of last resort, then go for it. However, let me just warn you that some WW's have been known to use the MC's sessions as a way of announcing to her family/friends that she's tried everything.......even counseling......and it did not help. Or, she may announce to the MC and you that she wants a divorce. IDK what she'll do, I'm just saying this has been reported from LBH'S.

I do find it odd that your W is interested in going to the MC. The WW is motivated by selfishness, so that makes me wonder. I am curious as to what the MC has in store and why she feels she can talk sense into your W.

Listen to your coach, and make a decision about the MC before doing anything else, okay? Once you make that decision there, then you can plan what to do next. Otherwise, I could see you being overwhelmed and feeling very hopeless.

Let me remind you of something, and I hope it won't confuse you. As I originally stated, when a boundary has been stated......and it has not been honored, then there should be some type of action taken by the H. In looking specifically at what you've said to your W about the NC........you did not state to her any particular outcome, other than that you could not continue going with how things are. Is that correct? So, you've never threatened to S/D? If you did not make a verbal remark about what you would do if she did not respect your NC boundary............then you can hold back a few days from jumping into the talk about separating.........don't you agree?

Just having the mental/emotional attitude that you are prepared to end the M, if she continues contacting OM.........should reflect to her the message of how serious you are about her behavior. As to her knowledge, she is not aware that you know that she has broken the boundary again, right? So, that buys you a little time to check out what your coach has to say..........and decide about the MC.

After seeing the wide-screen version of your situation, it makes better sense.

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When you say "she called", you are referring to your W, right?

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Yes. And not just to talk in generalities about the MC or the process. We had filled out a questionnaire/assessment and she was very interested in it and open and chatty about how she had answered the questions and how some of them were hard and others made her think this or that, etc., etc. Now, I should say that as of this first preliminary session we have not said word one about the "A", but did talk some about my wife's feelings of neglect. (This counselor told me individually that she DOES like to get the A out there in the open by the second session, and that there HAS to be some guilt/remorse).

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What was your opinion of the MC? Did the MC talk to you alone, and give some type of outline as to how she works with couples in this type of situation?

I like this MC very much. She is VERY pro-marriage, and also an intimacy and sex-therapist. (And Christian-oriented, if you can believe that.) I have consulted with her individually twice. W knows this, though not exactly what we discussed. The MC was completely on board with my sentiment to confront wife about the A and OM and comfortable with my stance that "I would not share" my W. She (MC) is of the opinion that these types of A's don't typically end until someone puts their foot down or confronts the W or there is some other kind of wake-up call. The MC's approach in general appears consistent with what MWD counsels-- pro-marriage, goals oriented, etc. She does a combination of individual and couples therapy as she deems appropriate.

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Before you decide about going to more sessions with this MC, I encourage you to please call your DB Coach. Not to get his advice on seeing the MC, but to hear his recommendations regarding your W still seeing the OM.

Just did this this morning...

...Conclusion was that there WERE some encouraging things in what my W had said about the counselling, that here willingness to do it for three months (or so it appears currently) was encouraging (she cited some other counselor who specializes in infidelity on this point), and that it was at least worth going to the intensive session (4 separate sessions) on 6/2 to see what comes out of it. WRT the NC agreement and my W's violation of it, the coach's advice was, especially since my W "does not know I know", to sit on it until after 6/2 to see what comes out of that. I always have that in my back pocket and available to me if things get too hard. Coach also advised (which makes sense) to maybe back off on the monitoring (though I have NOT been non-stop about it as it is) to improve my frame of mind going into the sessions, even to the point of just "letting her go out without objection or looking angry or upset" if she wants to out with BFF in the interim. Basically advised to put me desire to defend the boundary on hold until after 6/2. Also advised (which is consistent with what she had said previously and what you and others had said) to avoid, if it came to that either in counselling or elsewhere, specifying exactly what I know (except the stuff W knows I know) and how I know it, as me monitoring (or "spying" as she would see it) on her at this point would only damage the relationship.

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However, let me just warn you that some WW's have been known to use the MC's sessions as a way of announcing to her family/friends that she's tried everything.......even counseling......and it did not help.

.

Yes, I fear this too. Especially since, during our "No Contact" talk on 5/5, we discussed counselling and I professed a desire to wait a bit since she had just "cut contact" (her body language was definitely on the defiant/defensive side that evening) and that i didn't want to do it as a "box checking" exercise, to which she replied she didn't see ANY problem with doing it as a "box checking" exercise since "we would want to know we tried doing everything we could." I also fear it because I know she desperately fears losing/alienating our boys, to the extent that she has maniacally guarded her secrecy in this affair. (I still don't know how she plans on gaming this-- a blind mule, let alone my borderline genius son, would be able to see what happened here if she ultimately gets together with OM, my former friend and family friend with whom I "suddenly" had a falling out just at the time our marital difficulties started. She would have to wait a VERY long time before going public with it... and in fact she stated so to the OM on the initial phoncon I overheard back in January). Because of this, she is desperate that the break up be "just about us" and that we "present a united front" to the kids. A completed course of MC would obviously help her in this regard. Still... she seems genuinely interested. At least a little bit but certainly more than I would have expected.

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In looking specifically at what you've said to your W about the NC........you did not state to her any particular outcome, other than that you could not continue going with how things are. Is that correct? So, you've never threatened to S/D?

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Welll... I never threatened to S/D per se. However, in the 5/5 convo, I said something to the effect of "if this (NC) is not something that you can commit to or honor, I think we need to start the process of going our separate ways." (not verbatim, though I did definitely say "separate ways.")

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As to her knowledge, she is not aware that you know that she has broken the boundary again, right? So, that buys you a little time to check out what your coach has to say..........and decide about the MC.

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She doesn't know I know, but she knows I suspect about the ONE instance (seeing the OM at the bar Friday night 5/12). I did not confront her on that or push the issue and, of course, it is POSSIBLE that OM was not there. Unlikely, but possible. Sadly, her going to his house for an hour later that night/early-morning from about 3:30 to 4:30 AM removes any doubt that she DID see him that night, WON he was at the bar. But she does NOT know I know she went to the house.

While so much of her fits the WW profile, there are little bits and pieces here and there that make me think that (to quote Luke Skywalker) "there is still good in her". Nonetheless, I would tend to think that a dose of reality wouldn't hurt to help jar that into motion. (although the last "dose of reality" resulted in a major pull-back and amp up in frigidity from her.)

(This counselor told me individually that she DOES like to get the A out there in the open by the second session, and that there HAS to be some guilt/remorse).

She has to feel guilt/remorse during the session or in order for the relationship to work successfully?

I am really glad you called your DB coach. I think he's right about not monitoring her so closely. Once you have intel that lets you know she is cheating, I just don't see how it could be mentally healthy to look at it all the time. Besides, the WW will try to trip you up on the specifics, if you allow it. Cheating is cheating, whether you do it one time, or several times a day.

Since describing the MC, I have a better feeling about her...FWIW.
If you have already invested time in her and you really like what you know so far, then I wouldn't look for "another" MC. However, brace yourself if WW doesn't like her by the second session. Hopefully, the MC can work wonders. And I mean it, I really hope she can.

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While so much of her fits the WW profile, there are little bits and pieces here and there that make me think that (to quote Luke Skywalker) "there is still good in her".

I don't think you can look at her as having a bit of good or bad. Currently, her emotions are in charge and dictating to her all the reasons that justify this affair. Does that make it right? Of course not! She is in a bad place. Her behavior is bad. Her decisions are bad. However, I know it's possible to change what she presently feels, and work her way back to being her true self......instead of what you see now.

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I think he's right about not monitoring her so closely. Once you have intel that lets you know she is cheating, I just don't see how it could be mentally healthy to look at it all the time.

Yes, you are right. It is very hard to maintain a good frame of mind for YOURSELF and to stay grounded when you are basically constantly having to relive the revelation of the affair over and over and over. I try not to do it all the time but just in situations that are suspicious. Even that is very rough on the psyche.

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She has to feel guilt/remorse during the session or in order for the relationship to work successfully?

She has to feel guilt ultimately in order for the relationship to work successfully (and to help restore trust and start the healing), but also sounds like, in a more limited sense, for the sessions to be "productive" at the end of the day, whether that remorse comes immediately or comes later. (Honestly, while it would cause some hurt, there is part of me that almost wishes-- ALMOST wishes mind you-- that one of the boys would stumble across one of the bits of affair evidence that she is SO careless about, because that would CERTAINLY be a wake-up call for her. I am not going to be the one to inflict that pain, however.)

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However, I know it's possible to change what she presently feels, and work her way back to being her true self......instead of what you see now.

I hope so. I still love her, damn me for a fool.

Dangit. I just don't know if I can do this. "This" meaning 1) hold on for another 8-9 days knowing what is going on under my nose with the A despite my WW's promise to "no contact" and 2) Going into MC, despite my confidence and trust in the counselor, knowing that my W is in such a mindset that she is almost certain to lie to the counselor, saying she (my W) is honoring the "NC" promise/boundary, that the "A" is over, and that it is "not serious." I feel like participating in that charade will either make it harder for me to put my foot down later (remember I KNOW what's going on even though my W does not "know I know" and/or "force" me (or lead me, whichever) to reveal the "truth" of the affair (not the grim details, but just that I know that it is continuing an know it is more serious/sexual/intimate than W admits). Also feel like with my wife's current mindset, the MC is not likely to be effective no matter how good at her trade and, finally, that, if I reveal the "truth", either in the counselling sessions or to W afterward, that that will "burn" that MC for us as W will be to mortified and/or defensive to return.

Cause of all this internal angst is continued and heavy FB messaging between W and OM today. And, yes, I know I am supposed to be detaching and trying "not to look" and trying to hold off a week just to see what the first round of MC (four sessions same day) brings but, CRAP! Seems like it is all setting up just to be kabuki to provide W with some cover. Can someone talk me off the ledge here. The long weekend is only going to be tougher as i am sure she will find some way over three days to slip off with the OM.

Maybe i should just go with my gut from a few weeks back, find him, and kick the S**t out of him...

Jim,

You set a boundary of NC and transparency that your wife has broken multiple times correct?

Your in MC when your wife is in an active affair which everyone pretty much agrees is a waste of time and money.

IMO you have no choice but to enforce your boundary.

LH19,

Its complicated. Read my history, above. Think we were headed for possibly successful "NC" until we had a pretty disastrous weekend. W does not "know I that I know", yet, so not like she thinks I am being weak or indecisive. She has actually been VERY discrete and sneaky... it's just that I'm pretty smart at finding things out. So, the DB coach's advice was to wait until we had these sessions next Friday because there were some "positive signs" that W was interested in the process and possibly in actually exploring reconcilliation and see if it looked like there was actually any "opening" so to speak to move things forward. The MC we are using seems pretty confident she can help get my W to listen to reason. (Although even she was curious why I hadn't full confronted her with what I knew and has said that usually these don't end until someone "puts their foot down.") Problem is, as soon as I "put my foot down" here, she is pretty certain to know I have been monitoring (i.e. "spying on") her, and this in and of itself might scotch any chance we have of reconcilliation. Many, many moons ago when we were first dating and broke up I briefly went a bit "stalker" on her (nothing serious, but was spying on her some) and that has stuck in her mind all this time. Says she feels like she is constantly "looking over her shoulder". And, yes, I know, I know-- if she weren't engaging in an affair she wouldn't have to be "looking over her shoulder" at all.

My plan, based on discussions with my DB coach, with a friend, and on Sandi2s posts indicating that if the W "doesn't know that I know" that I could maybe hold off a few days just to see if the MC provided any breakthroughs, was to hold off, see how the MC went, and then, if there was dishonesty or any game playing by the W to either use the MC as a platform to say "I don't think this can work out under the current circumstances) or else to drop the hammer sometime shortly thereafter.

Now, however, I am wondering if it might not be advisable to, fairly soon and especially if she tries to slip away with OM or to go out with her bff (which lately has been code for "going to see the OM") say "look, I gave you my boundary, and I can't go on living this way with you, including pretending that we are going to try to work on the MR through counselling, under the current circumstances" and indicate I think she should move out of the marital home. Maybe leave open the possibility of going to the first counselling sessions to work things out, but... Idunno. Definitely cant trust her, and as soon as I drop that bomb I am sure she will go so deeply underground that I wont be able to monitor her at all.

So this must be the waywad rebellious mindset. 6 o'clock so I call W at work because I want to make dinner (she's usually home by 6). No answer. Call her cell. She answers "I'm having a meeting with ______ and ________, go ahead and start dinner." I make dinner. We wait a bit. And a bit more. I don't call because I dint want to be clingy. We eat. We clean up. 7:40. I call her. "I'm leaving now"h (no apology) TEN minutes later, (751) she calls. "Hello" i say. First thing she says: "You're irritated with me, I can hear it in your voice." (Still no apology) (And I didnt sound at all irritated, and said that I wasnt. Then, her: "Well, I'm on hov, I should be home pretty quick." No explanation, no apology. The boys had just left for a HS ball game. I grabbed my bag and headed to the gym. Leave her the empty house. I've had it. Just... had it. Supposedly she wants to "explore working on the marriage". Ummm, yeah, right...

I think you should confront her about the affair. A MC can't fix that. Maybe if your W WANTED to be done with it, the MC could help guide you through some steps to begin to get there. But it sounds like your W is still in the full blown affair with no intentions of "exploring the marriage" with you.
For you to be able to look back on this and be proud of the man you are, you need to man up and let her know her game is over. She doesn't have to know HOW you know the affair is still going on. She has no right to know that. If you are calm and confident, and just say, I know it's going on, then present the consequences (whatever they are- separation, etc.), you do not have to disclose the source of your information. Plus, even if she thinks it's due to your "spying", how much worse can this get? So she decides you are spying on her. So what? That's not nearly as big a crime as her sleeping with OM while still living under your roof.
Put your foot down. This is disrespectful to you, at a minimum.

The hits keep coming. Now she wants to drive her bff home on Friday night (bff lives about an hour and 15 mins from here) because "she's taking the train up here to work so her kids at home (she has teenagers) can have a car while she is away." Okay, so why can't bff (who I know by this time to be a primary liaison and enabler in my wife's A) just take the train back like she took it up instead of asking her friend to drive a total of two and a half hours? Silence.

Unspoken answer: Because then we can't stop on the way and have a rendezvous with my sweetie the OM. Like we did last Friday.

Really not sure I can wait until next Friday (MC sessions) before doing something. DB coach thought my W was leaving an opening and that it was worth exploring and that I should avoid confronting her until after that just to see if anything came of the sessions. Also advised I just "stop looking/snooping" until then and, if she went out with bff to just act as if i did NOT know what was going on. (i actually DO know what is going on since the NC promise, but W does not know that I know.)

While working out at gym last night and listening to a very inspiring online sermon from my church, I thought about how good and empowering it would feel to just say "enough! It's over! Go!" I think it would beet this constant pain and near helplessness.

So, my W saw the OM twice on Friday-- dinner before her drive to "take bff home" and then went by bar to see OM on way back. She also re-procured the "cheater phone" from her bff who had originally supplied it. Coming to find out that the bff is not only wayward herself but like SUPER wayward. Contact with OM seems to be escalating since the brief respite following her NC promise. My choices: Go ahead and confront her now and say "we're splitting I think you should find your own place" or wait until counselling sessions on Friday and hope for miracle and, if she doesn't come clean or otherwise seem engaged there then drop the bomb afterward. See above few posts is you want background on the whole counselling dynamic here.

The question I have is does the WW friend H know what she is up to? If not it might be time to let him know what his W is all about. As long as that friend is in the picture, then you'll never be able to solve the problems between you and your W. Whether you confront W now or at MC. You need to split from her regardless. Looks like she's spent more time sneaking around with OM than actually committing to NC. At this point, its time for her to see yourself losing everything.

What do you have to lose by waiting 6 more days? Frankly, I see nothing you will gain by confronting her. I still say the thing that is eating at you is that she doesn't know you are aware of her activities. You want her to know she has not pulled anything over on you. Well what good will it do? Unless you are ready to end the M right now........what is the point of confronting her?

The BFF is a major enabler, which makes reconciliation more complex. She needs to break contact with the BFF, but that will be as difficult (maybe more)as breaking up with OM. An outsider (like the counselor) has a better chance at getting your W to really see how the BFF is assisting the ruin of the M. Since the C wants to wait until the second session, it means you have to leave the timing up to her (the counselor).

Please stop snooping, b/c it is driving you to react out of emotions.

Yeah, youre probably right, I just worry that my W's narrative is going to be "no contact? No problem! We're already doing THAT." Of course, since she doesn't know i know, it will make it easier to check up on her in the future, but I'd rather not have to, obviously. I just feel like I should have SOMETHING to say even if only in the counselling session. My W DID show me her facebook page yesterday and the day before and BOTH times on her "Facebook Direct" line at the top the OM's name and avatar were the FIRST ones on that line which is based on number of hits/clicks, I believe. Can't believe she missed that but, as I have said here repeatedly, she is REALLY ineffective when it comes to lying and hiding things. (FWIW I had an individual session with this MC on Friday and she advised me just to wait and not do anything in the interim to "scare her (my W) off" since she did seem oddly willing to come in.)

Yeah, youre probably right (and FWIW I had an individual session with this MC on Friday and she advised me just to wait and not do anything in the interim to "scare her (my W) off" since she (W) did seem oddly willing to come in.) I just worry that my W's narrative is going to be "no contact? No problem! We're already doing THAT." Of course, since she doesn't know i know, it will make it easier to check up on her in the future, but I'd rather not have to, obviously. I just feel like I should have SOMETHING to say even if only in the counselling session to indicate that more needs to be done to limit contact. My W DID show me her facebook page yesterday and the day before and BOTH times on her "Facebook Direct" line at the top the OM's name and avatar were the FIRST ones on that line which is based on number of hits/clicks, I believe. Can't believe she missed that but, as I have said here repeatedly, she is REALLY ineffective when it comes to lying and hiding things. At any rate, that IS something, if it comes to it, that I could reveal that I know about her activities without HER knowing that I am snooping. Just... MAN this [censored].

At least the one thing I do know that provides a crumb of solace to my soul is that the A does not appear to be (yet) a full on steamy passionate physical one (though does seem as if it will ultimately head that way) OM just is not... a, ummm.. "threatening" rival. Redneck. Dead end job. Habitual drunkard. Looks old enough to be her father (and no, he's not rich) Not at all bright. But... in the right place at the right time and armed with LOTS of inside info about my W's vulnerabilities provided by ME. Honestly can't believe I may be losing my wife to him. OTOH, the BFF is HUGE problem and major overlay to the situation. Definitely wayward herself (recently separated from my own best friend after having had an affair with ANOTHER of our friends) and DEFINITELY cheerleading my wife in the direction of not only this A but also in the direction of this "liberating, fun, fulfilling" lifestyle. I honestly fear her (BFF) far more than I fear my W's current AP in terms of obstacles to restoring my MR.

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I just worry that my W's narrative is going to be "no contact? No problem! We're already doing THAT."

Did the C tell you to rely on her (the C) in directing the sessions? I mean, what if you jump in about the affair before the C is ready to go there with your W? Right now, you are completely focused on the affair, so it may be difficult for you to not immediately go into the subject of OM, NC, etc.

When the C told you it would be the second session before she discussed the A, was she referring to the second part of the four intensive sessions that first day........or the one two weeks later?

C told me in so many words to follow her lead. Didn't think full confrontation at this point from me would help. Thought it MIGHT help to hear it from a neutral third party (of course my wife is likely to deny any recent contact, so, good luck with that). Also C basically said she would be "going there" at some point on Friday, that it would involve some sort of "no contact" promise (we know how THAT's going already) and recommendation for transparency, that SOME degree of snooping/monitoring by me would probably to be expected under the circumstances but that if any "contact" issues came up that she usually advised her patients/clients to bring them to her first rather than slug it out on their own.

Doing alot of thinking, praying, and reflecting tonight. While working out, I also listened to a couple of older sermons from my church I recently started attending. That combo is always good therapy for me. Had an epiphany or too. I know not everyone here is a "Believer", but I am a devout Christian, and I truly believe God has been trying to tell me something, and the two sermons tonight cemented it. I am putting it all in His hands for the next week. Every fiber of me screams I should be doing SOMETHING. Certain common sense (and some posters here, who make a lot of sense) seems to indicate I should confront my W on some level. The situation, honestly, IMHO, seems pretty hopeless. But God does "hopeless" pretty well. Maybe He doesn't want my marriage to this woman to work out, but I know he wants the best for me and that he has something great planned for my life, if I am willing to follow His instructions, and right now his instructions to me, both directly and indirectly, seem pretty clearly to be "step back, stop monitoring, and let this play out. Stop trying so hard to change things on your own." This, i am going to do. Disable all monitoring devices, and swearing off checking for the next 6 days, at least. Let's see what the Man Upstairs has in store for me.

And one last thing before I go to bed in the interects of fairness, since I have sjewered the woman (my W's bff) relentlessly on these boards. While purging my surveillance files tonite in accordance with my epiphany from earlier, I stumbled across a segment from just this past week where w's bff was, to her credit, pressing my wife on the questions of "why she was doing the MC, just for appearances or to see if something actually there or could be there" and also whether or not she was going to cut contact in the interest of giving the MC a legit shot. They were genuine questions. Strange, coming from same woman who provided my wife with her cheater phone, relays messages from OM occasionally, and pals around with both of them when socializing. Still, o thought I should be fair.

Gotta throw this in there for anyone following or reading my thread, PARTICULARLY if you are a newcomer to these forums and PARTICULARLY if you have just faced the "bomb drop" (BD) by a cheating spouse or discovered the affair (A) yourself: READ SANDI2's threads on WWs! Do NOT delay in learning everything you can, becoming confident in your possible courses of action and which one(s) you intend to take and then, once you are grounded and comfortable, do NOT delay in confronting the issue of the affair with your wayward spouse. Sandi2 has said a few times that she thinks LBS's, particularly LBHs, have ONE really good shot at this, at putting their foot down, establishing the boundary and possibly (hopefully) ending the Affair. I'd say I have to agree. I was referred to MWDs books very early on, and came to these forums briefly, but I did do the work to read them and become familiar with things. MWDs advice in the books was very helpful in many ways, and significantly improved the tone of my interactions with my spouse but, due to some bad advice I received from other sources (NOT from this forum) and due to my incomplete understanding (I did not understand or even know about the dynamic of the "Wayward Wife", which dynamic was, in retrospect, spot-on applicable to my own sitch), I likely missed my one, BEST opportunity to quickly end the A and get my wife into a place where we could start to piecing. As it turns out, by failing to understand the dynamic, failing to take a firm stand initially, and by being excessively tolerant of continued contact, I actually allowed the A to grow from a mostly text-based (and some phone based) inappropriate "friendship" that was in retrospect a fairly mild EA, into a full-blown

romantic affair where my W now, I believe, thinks she is "in love with" this guy. In sum, I had a window perhaps now closed, at least for the forseeable future, to get her to "no contact" and have it stick. She WAS remorseful in the immediate aftermath of the revelation, and she had NOT completely "closed the door" on a future for us (90% closed, she said-- NOW she says, I've known its been 100% over for a long time) and, had we found the right counselor right away I probably could have gotten her to go. Instead, I let myself be talked by well-meaning but misguided/misinformed friends into believing that the A might be "not that serious", "just a friendship", and that "jealousy" and "being controlling" would only harm my chances at saving my marriage. This bought weeks and weeks of time for the affair to develop further. Later, I OVER reacted the other way, rather than detaching, and became hyper-focused on the affair, which led to the disastrous drunken night where I blew what might have been a decent second chance to get my wife to "No Contact". (She was about a week and a half in, was abiding by "no contact" except for a couple of drive-bys of the OM's favorite hangout where she didn't go in, was sulky and clearly still in the throws of "getting over" it, and then my drunken pass-out night where I confronted her enabling wayward BFF for her role in the A gave her motive (more anger) and opportunity (I passed out cold) to go see the Om and open the floodgates for the past two weeks where things have really accellerated.

Now, as I posted above, I have pulled back and put it in Gods hands. The time may and perhaps probably even will come when I will have to confront her and say "we're done, move out" and see where that takes us, but that point will not be for at least another probably two weeks, as we see how the current dynamic plays out. Nonetheless, be forewarned, newcomer LBHs...Do ALL the reading you can, here. Learn the dynamics of the WW and the methods for dealing with them, Learn the DB techniques (GAL is particularly important), and ACT on them. Have a plan. And, if you have an opportunity to "stop" it, don't let an affair fester and grow... do what you can to stop it. Sandi2 and some of the others on her have excellent suggestions on how to do so, but it has to be done early and it has to be done right.

I have blown it twice, now. Hoping the man upstairs will bail me out, now, or show me the path to doing so. Which dovetails with my final suggestion: If you are a person of faith... DONT lose it. Look for signs, listen for help, read scripture. It will give you strength and can, God willing, save your M.

I guess my question is how you would apply the suggestions Sandi gave you to what the DR book says? Book says to work on yourself and pretty much let the WS just be. While the Sandi's advice is enforce boundaries when the WS has already declared that he or she wants out of the MR anyways.

Hoos

I'm sorry for your pain. I truly am.

However your focus now is all on her affair. I hear nothing about your GAL or changes other than working out

and nothing about the issues you shared with OM (that are part of why you are here). When you were telling him about how sexual your wife was and how you were not into it, what was the point you were making? I'm not saying you were betraying her, but I'm curious.

To be clear, I cannot stand what she's doing. But you're spinning your wheels putting ALL of this marriage or divorce onto whether she stops the affair and whether you should confront or snoop and blah blah blah.

But please, for a minute forget the OM.

What would be different/better in your marriage if you were to reconcile?

How are you different?

Glad you are dropping the devices. It's 6 days, Hoos. Plan your course of action OR just leave it to the Big Guy for these 6 days and give your head and heart, a rest.

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But God does "hopeless" pretty well

I really like that ^^^^^^^^^^^.

I have learned that faith is when we "rest" in knowing that God is in charge. Your part is to rely on Him to work things together for good. It may or may not be in the timeframe you desire, b/c our time is not His time. His timing is perfect, while ours is imperfect. Perhaps He will work through this MC, or maybe something else. If you have placed this in His hands, then believe He can take your messes and work things for your good. Even when we see no outward evidence that suggests something is changing.......God is working behind the scenes.

Your post seems to me that if you would have done this or would have done that, she would have agreed to no contact and the A would be over.

say you "force" the A to be over? What's the next step? Your M will be healed, OM is gone and you guys have a restored M?

It doesn't work that way, unfortunately. That's why 5 is asking you what you are doing in terms of GAl and 180's. THAT is something your actions can control. When/if she does stop this A, things have to change, collectively between the two of you, else there is OM2, OM3, OM4......

Focus your energy where you can. That's your side of the street.

Ginger, 25, Sand, thanks.

I am actually doing a lot of GAL and 180-type stuff. And my W has noticed and told me so... in the context of telling me she still feels "nothing" for me in terms of intimate, romantic feelings. (and this is unsolicited, we do talk periodically and SHE is the one who mentioned how much I have changed, how much she has noticed even the little things like wearing cologne, etc.) And I really have changed a lot, and I am GAL-ing as much as possible. Working out regularly, having at least one night "out" a week. Going to a new church and meeting new people. Even my general demeanor towards people I meet out has become much more warm and open as a result of my renewed faith and my efforts to change. But... she is still (or perhaps newly) infatuated with the OM. And this is why I am focused on that. Not exclusively, mind you... I am committed to maintaining my changes and 180s, etc. BUT... I do also realize that there will likely be no substantive "working on us" as long as OM is in the picture. And, so, I want that to end. I have had two opportunities, I think, to possibly have taken advantage of that might have "ended" it or at least had a good shot at it, and that was the intent of my post. Not that anyone should ignore the VERY important 180s and self improvement and GAL steps, but that you shouldn't ignore an A or attempt to address it without having a good plan and sticking to it. I did neither, and it definitely set me back and quite possibly (remains to be seen) sealed the fate of my marriage, which was already a longshot, IMO due particularly to the length of neglect of my W, the age of our kids (17 and 18 and nearly out of the house), and the presence of the bff and others who are supportive of the A.

25, I KNOW from reading you that you are sensitive to neglect issues affecting the wife, but know for my part that I full understand and own my own deficiencies, here, and am fully committed to having an AMAZING marriage and to doing all the things necessary to have that marriage and not re-do the mistakes of the past. But... won't happen unless the W starts having or allows herself to have romantic feelings for me... Which wont happen as long as she is carrying on with the OM.

In terms of GAL, focusing on self, and, ultimately, finding time for the MR, another overlay which bears mentioning again in our case is the kids... both of whom are special needs. One with Tourettes and one with very significant OCD/ADHD/Anxiety. Starting to question whether the older one may even be able to go off to college in the Fall. This is a major stressor on our lives and also a significant impingement on our time. Was certainly one of the overlays through the years that impacted our ability to easily "feed" the MR, and continues to a certain extent today. Both tend to get "locked up" on things and then need some help. Neither one is currently at a place, I don't think, where I would feel great "sending them out into the world"... and that goes beyond the normal parental feelings of worry in that regard.

Sandi, yes.

And amazing little example of this yesterday, perhaps (though honestly hoo knows except for God what impact it will have) is that I discovered I have an ally. Or at least if not an ally at least someone who appears to be working in the same direction as I am... That is, towards getting my wife and I to reconcile or at least to attempt doing so. My W went for walk yesterday and stopped by the house of an old friend she hadn't seen in a while (and, no, I wasn't snooping, she told me all of this). They talked for a couple of hours and this friend (whom I have always liked-- very sunny and cheerful person) gave her a book as well. Forget the name but something like "Love Warriors" or something which apparently is about a married couple who lost love, experienced an affair, and chose to come back to each other, change profoundly, and LEARN to love each other all over again. And my W actually started reading it. And the friend called her later that evening to follow up with her and make sure she was reading it. This happened the day after I pulled all me surveillance an my life (which I felt and was getting numerous signs that God wanted me to do), prayed fervently, and put it all in God's hands. I know its no major breakthrough or anything, but it has been just hit after hit after hit it seems with my sitch... and this was a tiny little glimmer of good news. Someone is actually rooting for my marriage.

I just cried writing that, btw. Im such a frigging sap.

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And my W has noticed and told me so... in the context of telling me she still feels "nothing" for me in terms of intimate, romantic feelings.

WW's can be sooo rude!

One reason a WW will "remind" her H that her feelings have not changed is b/c she thinks you are doing all these 180's to win her back. But you know.....whatever. WW's think everything is about them. Just don't go into "explaining" to her why you have made changes. I think that's where a lot of guys lose their edge of mystery......b/c they are always trying to explain themselves to the W. Let her wonder.

Hoosjim,
I am glad you have found some peace in turning your marriage over to your Higher Power (I call mine God too, but you know....

). I am a HUGE fan of the author of the book you referenced, and have followed her blog and seen her speak twice, since her first book came out a few years ago. The book you refer to is her second book. And if your wife stops reading there, it will be a great motivation for giving marriage a second chance. I hope she does stop there. Because this story, although the author says has a wonderful ending, would probably not end the way you are hoping yours does. The BOOK has a great ending, but as in life, the story continues..... The author is still one of my favorite people ever, and she has now found peace. Just remember, no two stories are alike, and there are many possible endings. I just don't want you to be disappointed. Who knows, your wife may write the next best-seller and tell YOUR story, and I pray it has an ending that brings both of you peace and happiness. I'm pulling for you!!

Yeah, I have seen this dynamic over and over. Example: Ive become more "western"-oriented in some ways. Getting interested in horses (I've always wanted to have some land in country) and riding, got myself a couple of hats, and some boots. At one point a few weeks back she told me: "You know it just seems kind of suspicious that you picked up and started wearing these cowboy hats after I had been reading a few of these Western romance novels" (which, admittedly, she had been.) To which I replied: "Really? Has nothing to do with you. I just think I look damned good in a cowboy hat." (And I have in fact been told as much, and she herself grated that in that same convo-- "Well, yeah, you do".)

I just... ugh. Damn this is so hard. I would LOVE my chances with this woman if we had never met and were just meeting for the first time (and even if competing with the OM under such circumstances). Even under the current circumstances if, God willing, we can somehow and seemingly against all odds get to "piecing"... I think we will be amazing together. Alot of hurdles to overcome, though. If God's willing, i am willing to do what it takes, and I know it can happen. That's the big question, though... is it "meant to be"?

And dont get me wrong, here. Not saying I think there is anything that I can do to "change her" or "Get her back" as things currently stand. That is all in God's hands and I have little to no control over it except to the extent He instructs/inspires/directs me to do something to move down the path He intends for me and I accept that instruction/challenge/burden/whatever. All I am saying is that I am confident in myself and in my worthiness as a husband/mate/lover for my W--- but that in and of itself won't matter a hill of beans in terms of our chances of reconcilliation if my W's heart does not turn... And that is obviously completely out of my control and in God's (and, to a lesser extent, my W's-- she does have a choice, her) hands.

Sandi--

Kind of a personal question, but it pertains to my own sitch: How did your husband treat you during the "depths" of your extra-marital involvement, and how did that impact your ultimate return? I know you have written much about your journey through waywardness and your eventual return to commitment to your H and your marriage. I know you said the turning point for you was the accidental discovery of the A by one of your children, but I cannot remember exactly how you described how your H treated you through all of this, other than you said that he was very patient and understanding and that if he had tried to shame or expose you that you might have divorced him. I looked through several of your threads (you have a LOT of stuff on here) but couldn't find what I was looking for. Did HE ever take any kind of "stand" regarding your extra-marital activities? Did he just effectively ignore them and treat you as lovingly as possible under the circumstances? Not looking to take this as advice or anything because I know every person's sitch is somewhat unique, and I am certainly not counting on any kind of "discovry" by my kids of my wife's A (I'd actually strongly prefer to avoid that, if possible)... but i AM curious as to how the H-W dynamic played out in your situation.

Thanks

ARRRRGGH!! I just... I mean. Crap.

She had a phone consult with the counselor today (individual counselling) from 4 to 5, after which she was going to come home (she was getting off work at 4 for the call). Calls me at five til SIX: "I came back in to finish up some work, then I'm going to have a glass of wine with Dr.______ and ________ (one of the secretaries there) to decompress after my talk with the counselor. I'll call you when I am heading back." This is the same pair (doctor and secretary) with whom she was supposedly having a meeting LAST Wednesday that then became a two-hour plus hang-out with wine and I had to call her at nearly EIGHT to find out if/when she was coming home. "You're irritated with me" was first thing she said when she called me on her way back LAST Wednesday. I was, but denied it. We talked about it next day though and I said "yeah I was irritated" and I asked her what MRS. Dr. _________ thought about her H hanging out after hours and drinking wine with two beautiful women from his office, one married one single. When she said she didn't know I asked her how she would have felt if I had done same with two female co-workers back when she gave a damn about whether or not I slept around. (Yes, this was probably not the best thing to say and NOT playing it cool and definitely sort of Tantrum-y I suppose, but it had been a BAD week with her continued breakage of the NC with her regular OM, and I have been VERY cool for the most part and just felt I had to say that... though i note I kept a soft voice and did not shout... just asked the question.)

I had no reason to think she was not hanging out with those two at her office last week, nor do I this week (expecially since I stopped tracking her). Just seems like if we are committing to "working on the MR" (which, I acknowledge, we probably really arent and this is just a hail mary by me with the MC based on nothing else but Faith, really) that she's basically just flipping me and the process a big old bird, here. I mean, really?

She did ask me, when I paused probably a bit too long "Had you wanted to do something?" and I said "No..." and then DIDN'T add "...because 1) I thought you might want to decompress which to me would mean taking some quiet contemplative time to yourself rather than drinking wine with a married doctor and single twenty something secretary (though I have no confirmation that this third wheel is actually there) after hours, AND 2) You have told me you are not really romantically/intimately interested in me right now so I'm trying to give you some space."

Anyone have advice on how I could have handled this better? It just COMPLETELY blows my mind that she did this.

Quote:

Kind of a personal question, but it pertains to my own sitch: How did your husband treat you during the "depths" of your extra-marital involvement, and how did that impact your ultimate return?

Well, thank you for your interest in my story. My H was a man of very few words, and he a typical nice guy with a lot of passivity.
He grew suspicious and discovered my messaging to other men. (It's so embarrassing, and it is a long story, but I won't go into all of that right now). At the time, we had one of our grown children and a grandchild staying with us, so he was trying to wait until they left before he confronted me. As it went, he couldn't wait and his first confrontation was to tell me that he knew what I was doing. He approached me in a calm & kind manner. He did a pretty decent job, until he tried to make me feel guilty by asking me what would my dad think of me (my dad was deceased). I probably resembled that possessed girl who's head spinned around and told him, "Don't you dare bring my father into this!" He knew I respected my father more than any other man in the world. So, needless to say, a little more resentment was added to the heap after he tried to guilt me. He finally told me to delete all my contacts, and I did. I was bawling my eyes out, but I did it.

Having the kids in the house was a strain, and we really had very little privacy. But we acted as "normal" in their presence as we could, I suppose. A couple of days later when I was on the computer, one of the guys I had previously contacted, popped up on the monitor. He became the OM. I honestly thought my H did not know how to track my history, but goes to show you how stupid waywards can think. He not only tracked it, he read everything! He wasn't so nice the second confrontation.

As for anything particular my H did that persuaded my decision......there were not that many. I honestly have to say that it wasn't so much what he did as it was the timing of things. Other things were beginning to get my attention. For example, the OM was unintentionally giving me clues about his insincerity. I wanted to believe the fantasy, so I tried to ignore it. In the meantime, my H pulled way back and stopped trying to rush into the room to catch me talking to OM, and stuff like that. My H continually prayed about the situation. I believe God heard his prayer b/c one night I felt a strong need to talk to someone about my situation. I went to the computer to check out some type of chat room. I had never read a forum, much less try to navigate myself around on one. That was the night I found this forum.

Not very many WW's show up on the DB board, but I did.....and I give most of the credit to those who mentored me and gave me the information that caused me to rethink about what I was doing. It was a painful process for me to do the necessary work I needed to do. I wished we had went to a good MC, when I decided to stay with my H, but he refused to go. Oh, one thing he did say that shocked me was when I said the typical thing about being friends. He shook his head and said if I left, there would be no coming back....and we would not be on the buddy-buddy system. Yeah, that really got my attention! I thought he would be happy that I even offered friendship---while I ran off with the OM!! See how WW's think?

Today, my H takes absolutely NOTHING off me! But I must admit that I don't have the resentment and disrespect I use to have. I do have to work on it, b/c I don't want it to rear its ugly head again. He will always be a nice guy, but he has changed in some ways. He's not as passive as he once was. He sure has no problem standing up to me, or anyone else. I just wished he would have done that in the beginning of our MR.

Well, I've said a lot but don't feel that I've given you what you wanted. I've had H's ask me what my LBH did to get me back. My LBH was not getting the information that I was receiving. I was the one who came to the board, so I was the one getting the instructions as to do what needed to be done. Fortunately, my H stepped away instead of pursuing or putting emotional pressure on me.

That was ten years ago.

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I had no reason to think she was not hanging out with those two at her office last week, nor do I this week (expecially since I stopped tracking her). Just seems like if we are committing to "working on the MR" (which, I acknowledge, we probably really arent and this is just a hail mary by me with the MC based on nothing else but Faith, really) that she's basically just flipping me and the process a big old bird, here. I mean, really?

Has she actually said she was committed to work on the MR, or was it more you putting words into her mouth? Obviously, she is not doing the actions you need to see from her. I think it is b/c she never intended to change what she is currently doing.

She resembles the wayward teenager. The dad gives the teenager his speech about what he won't allow, and the teenager may nod her head (and dad may mistake her nod as her agreement to cooperate), but she walks away knowing in her heart she will not stick to the rules dad laid out. Sometimes, she may do just enough to cause dad to think maybe she is trying.......but really, she's only playing games. This is much like the dynamics between the H and his WW.

I hope you post an update soon.

Okay, so, we had our first intensive counselling sessions yesterday. Under normal circs, I would say that they were cautiously productive. No major new revelations other than W confessed that there,had been "a kiss" with the OM, the affair with whom she characterized as mostly texting and friendship that was inappropriate for a married woman. She did say she never would have thought she would have done something like that previously. Most troubling, though, she still didn't confess (and I didnt let on I knew about) the continuing and even perhaps increasing contact. She said (lying) that,she had given up the cheater phone and implied that she had broken contact. Neither counselor nor I pressed her on this. She still keeps the phone, is still in contact on FB (these I know without even snooping as she is very sloppy). Dont know to what extent or if she is actually using phone to call him.

In terms of just us, no huge revaluation either. She doesn't feel that spark with me and doesn't know if she can. Doesn't believe me and even bristles a bit when I compliment her, says "it doesn't make her feel like those types of comments should". Alot of "soul- matey" destiny type of comments from her... "I think there are some people out there who bring out the vest in you and who you were meant to be, implication being I wasn't one. OM happened, she said, not sure how, but HE made her laugh, made her feel pretty and desired, etc. Also, when we discussed "must haves" for MR, fun times, especially spontaneity and unpredictability were big with her.

There was more, 4 hours, that I can fill in later, we are supposed to tslk, work on complete honesty, transperancy, and vulnerability, and make time to spend some alone date time together.

Idunno. Still not sure how great an idea any of this is as long as she is clinging on to OM. Iqas expecting a little more attention to this in our first sessions

Originally Posted By: hoosjim

ARRRRGGH!! I just... I mean. Crap.

She had a phone consult with the counselor today (individual counselling) from 4 to 5, after which she was going to come home (she was getting off work at 4 for the call). Calls me at five til SIX: "I came back in to finish up some work, then I'm going to have a glass of wine with Dr.______ and ________ (one of the secretaries there) to decompress after my talk with the counselor. I'll call you when I am heading back."

This is the same pair (doctor and secretary) with whom she was supposedly having a meeting LAST Wednesday that then became a two-hour plus hang-out with wine and I had to call her at nearly EIGHT to find out if/when she was coming home. "You're irritated with me" was first thing she said when she called me on her way back LAST Wednesday. I was, but denied it.

We talked about it next day though and I said "yeah I was irritated" and I asked her what MRS. Dr. _________ thought about her H hanging out after hours and drinking wine with two beautiful women from his office, one married one single.

When she said she didn't know I asked her how she would have felt if I had done same with two female co-workers back when she gave a damn about whether or not I slept around. (Yes, this was probably not the best thing to say and NOT playing it cool and definitely sort of Tantrum-y I suppose, but it had been a BAD week with her continued breakage of the NC with her regular OM, and I have been VERY cool for the most part and just felt I had to say that... though i note I kept a soft voice and did not shout... just asked the question.)

I had no reason to think she was not hanging out with those two at her office last week, nor do I this week (expecially since I stopped tracking her). Just seems like if we are committing to "working on the MR" (which, I acknowledge, we probably really arent and this is just a hail mary by me with the MC based on nothing else but Faith, really) that she's basically just flipping me and the process a big old bird, here. I mean, really?

She did ask me, when I paused probably a bit too long "Had you wanted to do something?" and I said "No..." and then DIDN'T add "...because 1) I thought you might want to decompress which to me would mean taking some quiet contemplative time to yourself rather than drinking wine with a married doctor and single twenty something secretary (though I have no confirmation that this third wheel is actually there) after hours, AND 2) You have told me you are not really romantically/intimately interested in me right now so I'm trying to give you some space."

Anyone have advice on how I could have handled this better? It just COMPLETELY blows my mind that she did this.

I don't really understand this^^ chronology or situation. So if I am not getting that right, I apologize in advance.

1) On one hand If my h were going to counseling and needed to process it after, I would not be interrogating him at all about it, - assuming our boundaries were intact.

His process would be none of my business. I would not ask anything about it, nor would I ever dream of h "decompressing" WITH me...,

I think your personal boundaries and agreements are very much your business, but not her own private process.

2) OTOH regarding this whole situation with a doctor and secretary

I've been married (legally at least) to an MD for 35 years. As a L, I defended MD/RNs as my job. How Does your w have a r with this doctor?
I hope she's not a patient of his. It's very frowned upon for them to have this type of "social (especially with alcohol) relationship" if it did not exist prior to his treating her.

Yes they can run into each other in a public - holiday event or social gathering where they all might be. OR with a relevant medical social thing like a support group, etc.

As for a married doctor having drinks with his secretary and a 3rd party or patient,(??)

- If true, your w is a cover for the doctor not to have to tell his own wife that he's having drinks - etc - with his young secretary. (Gee, nothing cliched there).

But This^^ situation is not a reason for YOU to bash your w, it's a reason to see thru this doctor. Sheesh.

As for how YOU could handle it better...---IMO, the only issue worth addressing is your boundary with OM.

Not the other stuff your w does, or how silly she may seem, or who she is enabling, etc

That's all about you trying to control everything - BUT the real issue,

and it's eating you up inside too.

PS

How are your GAL activities going?

What are your personal goals, (apart from keeping your marriage)?

I'm not hammering GAL as a criticism, but as a way to keep you from spinning so much. The spinning helps nothing and no one. Truly. You're driving yourself crazy and turning it over to God will give you peace. I had to turn my over often, not just once.

So, what else is going on in your life?

She's trying to fool the MC about the level or intensity of her affair. I hope the MC sees through her and get to the root problems.

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Doesn't believe me and even bristles a bit when I compliment her, says "it doesn't make her feel like those types of comments should"

I can relate to the bristling. It's one of those things that's difficult to explain about a wayward wife and her feelings toward her H. When you compliment her, it just does nothing positive for her.

When my H would compliment me, it was a turn-off. I know this probably makes no sense to women who have not experienced that wayward mindset.......but it happens when the wayward attitude/thinking has grown to this level. It's like receiving a compliment from that guy in high school who you thought was disgusting and made you sick. (There's a reason they say WW's have a cold heart) . The things a man would do for a more "normal" woman......will not be as successful with his WW.

Once she battles the waywardness and finds her way back.....then she can appreciate your compliments, and blossom in the affection you give her.

Of course she feels no spark currently. She's not going to feel any sparks as long as she is playing around on her H. And here's the thing.......I think she will try to use the fact she feels no sparks as her main crutch in the counseling sessions. It's true that she doesn't feel sparks with her H. She's not lying about that part. However, I think she will be reluctant in seriously committing (in her heart) to the necessary work that's required to get back the sparks with her H. She sees blaming her H or saying the spark is gone as a working excuse for her.....so she'll grab it for her crutch whenever necessary.

I am really hoping this MC can get through to her. As I've said before, timing is extremely important. We don't know what may be going down on the other end of this affair. Trust God to work on all the ends involved.

Thanks, Sandi.

Sometimes, especially now, I just feel like I am way way WAY off the DB "reservation". Somehow... and admittedly in large part due to pure faith... I have ended up in MC before having regained my wife's interest and before her A with the OM has ended. I am also in the position now of being counseled that we SHOULD find time together, have some dates, and try to reconnect (i.e. "pursuing") but at a time (now) when any "distancing" I have done has not yet had a chance to "draw her towards me." I know that she HAS, (DEFINITELY has) noticed my changes and 180s, and has commented this past Friday even on ones I didn't know she had noticed ("the way you take care of yourself now, shaving, wearing good cologne...you look really nice", AND i know that when I am off doing things on my own that she DOES notice... but... as she says, she sees me and "just... nothing." Yet, we end up in this place where we are supposedly working on things, partially because friends tell me that she was upset/hurt in the recent past when she came to me, we mentioned counselling, and then did nothing and, more recently since BD when we would talk and she (as she thought) indicated a willingness to enter MC yet I said or implied that I thought she was "too broken" and "NEEDED individual counselling first." (FTR, I said neither of those things, just that "I thought she had said she wanted to talk to someone on her own to get her own head figured out"-- which is exactly what she had said but... her perception is as above and perceptions are reality,

) And, then, in addition, we end up in a place where we are supposed to be finding time together because, as even SHE grants-- "If WE are all seriousness and sadness and work on the difficult questions of our relationship over here, and then over THERE (i.e. with friends and/or the OM) it is all fun fun fun, etc., then we are never going to reconnect or find a spark."

And then there is this nagging concept in my mind of whether or not she is actually a full blown WW. She very clearly has a significant overlay of that mindset... the "girls gone wild", "i gotta be free", "i need time for ME no matter what", etc., BUT... other things make me wonder-- She admits, openly, and to me and to the counselor that what she feels "is selfish" and that she knows "everyone-- kids, husband, our families, some friends-- will be hurt" (though without going so far as to admit to wanting to run off with another man) and this DOES make her sad/cry (and for real... not crocodile tears.) So i truly believe she knows and understands that the A is wrong and hurtful-- even as she knows that at least part of her WANTS the A/OM. Why did she admit to "there was a kiss"? No reason for her to do that, since she is still in denial mode. And I am fairly confident that they have NOT had sex of any sort (even though they HAVE talked about it in fairly explicit terms) and I am equally confident that this is because she knows/believes that it would be "more wrong" than what she is doing now-- and this even with her carrying around what is, for a woman, a VERY strong sex drive. And then there is the counselling-- while I know she is not in the mindset of "I want to work on the marriage", i believe she is sincere (or at least THINKS she is sincere) when she says "I want to FIND OUT if i want to work on the marriage and IF it would be possible to rekindle things". She also has not demonstrated any of the manipulative mindset that WWs supposedly have-- she is not taking advantage of my increased usefulness around the house, etc, is still pulling her own weight, and is not expecting me to cater to her. She also is not "throwing me crumbs" in terms of affection to keep me around-- near as I can tell when things ramp up with the OM then she distances herself from me. She is consistently clear with me that she does not want me sexually/intimately and has not and does not lead me on in any way. She even said in MC on Friday that she will intentionally NOT send texts to me sometimes even though she is thinking of doing so or would otherwise want to do so because she doesn't want to be too close to me and give me the wrong idea.
(Though she HAS had this "tell" in the past that when she is going to meet the OM that she WILL get very chatty/text-y just prior-- but haven't seen that in the past coupla three weeks.) And then there is this willingness and apparent genuine interest in the counselling and the counselling process. i DO believe she believes the spark is gone and probably cant come back but... she does seem legitimately engaged in the process-- we talked for a LOONG time on the car ride back (counselor is two-plus hours away)about many many things, and it was not all "hard" stuff, although admittedly when you get to the meat of the issue, she still has this "barrier" in place about any romance between me and her... BUT... there were some nice moments in that car conversation, too, and she admitted to things I am doing and ways I have changed "confusing" her. Finally, she has this book that another friend (who I truly believe is on the "side" of our marriage, here) that my W has been EXTREMELY interested in and committed to reading (and this friend keeps checking in with her to see how she's doing with the book) that involves a married couple surviving infidelity and working to and actually rediscovering love and intimacy. It is one of several books to which she has been exposed since this all started, but the only one she has shown such interest in.

So, idunno. It seems like I in some ways I am pretty far off the tracks, here, DB-wise, and putting all of my eggs in the faith/MC basket. Then again maybe I am in some really bizarre, uncharted waters-type place with an atypical pseudo--WW wife and there IS no "book" on how to proceed.

Just some more additional color/update as a final note: We also had a "bounce out" last night (Friday had been REALLY heavy in spots with a good bit of talk about some really painful things like our miscarriage, etc.) to do something just carefree and lighthearted where we went to the corner pub to watch her hockey team play and have a couple (yes just a couple) of beers with a "no MR rule". On Friday toward end of MC session, we had talked about doing so, and I think it was a good move to get her out of the house because our boys had both gone out with friends and she had started to settle in on the couch in "Facebook" mode. We had fun, laughed and talked. ALMOST danced when music got really good but then didn't. I held off asking her because we're just not "there" right now, until she said, smiling and not at all in a nasty way "Well if you're not I'm just going to go dance with myself" (she really likes to dance) and I said, "oh no, im right there" and she said "let me go to the ladies room first" and the band went on break before she got back, so the "moment" passed. Maybe I should've asked, idunno. Just didn't feel "right". Otherwise was a "nice" evening, we talked, we joked, we laughed-- she got to see the more outgoing me as we chatted with a lot of new people. Not reading anything into it but it was good to just get out and spend some non-negative time with her. Also, today she went out to have some alone time and decompress and read her book, and then later to go visit her BFF an hour south of here. Normally that can be cover for seeing the OM, but I don't think so this time. She called me as soon as she got there to fill me in on her plans. I am wondering to myself if she is going to return the "cheater phone" to the bff (who is the one who originally provided/brokered it). Pretty sure she hasnt used that phone in several days (i can usually tell when she is by her demeanor and mannerisms and "guarding") and I think MAYBE she might be trying to "NC" with the OM again. She certainly turned down an opportunity Friday night after we got back from MC and the BFF invited her to come out with her but she opted to stay home and have dinner and watch a movie with me and the kids (I didn't insist or ask, she just did it.)

And finally, while the bff has undoubtedly played a role here that is NOT in favor of my marriage, I have to again give credit where due as my last bits of surveillance before I shut all that down and put it "in God's hands revealed that she (BFF) of all people, had actually pressed my W on the questions of 1) "are you doing this counselling just for appearances sake or because you think you can save the marriage" and 2) "aren't you going to cut contact with OM while you are doing the MC" (FWIW my W was somewhat uncertain/evasive on both counts-- just found it interesting that the BFF was even bothering to ask such Qs-- not that i'd consider her a friend of the marriage or anything by a long shot. Still-- interesting.)

Oh, AND she called me just to talk for a few minutes as she was driving west. Sounded like she just wanted someone to chat with a bit while she was in the car. And not in the "i'm getting ready to go do something bad so here is my call/text to make me/you feel better" kind of way that, yes, I really can pick up on when she is doing it. She really just wanted to be talking to someone, I guess me. Car time has/had typically been her "talk to the OM time". (Which I suppose it could still be-- I am not currently monitoring her so have no way to know for sure.)

At any rate, off to the river for me. Doing some kayaking today.

Further update:

We are, apparently, back in some sort of "No Contact" status with the OM. I posted a couple days ago, half jokingly, that "maybe my W will return the 'cheater phone' when she visits her bff today" (the bff is the one who got it for her originally) and, apparently, that is what happened. Unless she is doing a REALLY good job of hiding it, and she is certainly not behaving like she had been (purse guarding, etc.) when she definitively had the extra phone. She also, as mentioned earlier, passed on an easy opportunity to go see the OM this weekend. Finally, in our talk last night, she told me she "still thinks about him" but "is not talking to him" (and we didn't go into it much more than that.) OTOH, I have no way of knowing if the OM is calling her at work (as he has in the past) and I have no idea how much contact they are having on Facebook, where I am certain, at least as of last week when she showed me her FB page not realizing it listed her "frequent contacts" where the OM was tops on the list, they were keeping in contact or at least that she was following him closely-- and she is still a little protective of her phone when she is Facebooking, which makes me suspicious. (As a reminder, we do not have any type of "transparency" agreement or understanding concerning social media and phones). Finally, for color (and this came up again last night as well) she feels as if "all of the problems we have were there before the OM entered the picture" and I know from hearing her talk previously that she thinks or at least thought that she can "separate the two" -- meaning our MR and the OM feelings--"in her mind." But, anyway, in sum, it APPEARS as if she is at least making some sort of attempt at "No Contact" or at least creating the appearance that she is-- at any rate she appears to be practicing "no seeing in person" and "no talking". (again, unless they are talking at work.)

Her general demeanor is that "it is really good we are talking... probably more than we ever have..." but that "the spark is not there" and she feels more like "we are building a friendship and is not sure the romance will ever come back" although she HAS apparently committed at least some time and effort to "finding out if it CAN come back" by going to MC. OTOH, she woke up Saturday (day after counselling) and told me later she felt "trapped and smothered", though she got over it later and we went out as I talked about earlier and had a really good time. She is noticing my 180s and GALs (the most puzzling one is that I am going to be getting a tattoo-- something I've secretly always wanted and now am doing as a kind of YOLO thing but which I thought she might actually NOT like but she seems FASCINATED by it, keeps talking and asking about it and said, with this wonderous look in her eye when I told her i really liked the look of the temp one and wanted a real one: "Who ARE you?")

So, how do you think I should play all this? Am I truly, in your opinion, at "no contact"? If so, should I try to insist on FB/phone transparency, too (and remember I have a basis to bring this up that doesn't involve snooping) and at what point and in what manner or would that, in your opinion, risk pushing her away? She doesn't seem to be in the full-on depression/withdrawal I would expect if she had truly cut full contact, and I am tempted to snoop a bit later in the week just to take the temp of things. My inclination is to keep "talking" to her, letting her take the lead for the most part on subject matter, to continue my independent "GAL" and 180s, but also to start finding ways to create some social time between us like when we went out Saturday. Oh, and to be "spontaneous" about it since she has said she values that.

I still in a bit of limbo as her pattern doesn't seem to fit the WW norm in all respects, and I am not at all certain if there is full "no contact" with the OM (his birthday is coming up so that will be a test, I think), so I am never 100% sure how to play things when approaching her. Obviously, I want to continue all the things I am doing for ME and to improve MYSELF, but... still some uncertainty here.

Thoughts welcome.

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Also C basically said she would be "going there" at some point on Friday, that it would involve some sort of "no contact" promise (we know how THAT's going already) and recommendation for transparency, that SOME degree of snooping/monitoring by me would probably to be expected under the circumstances but that if any "contact" issues came up that she usually advised her patients/clients to bring them to her first rather than slug it out on their own.

What about all of this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^? Did the counselor cover the areas you initially were led to believe?

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I am also in the position now of being counseled that we SHOULD find time together, have some dates, and try to reconnect (i.e. "pursuing") but at a time (now) when any "distancing" I have done has not yet had a chance to "draw her towards me."

Has your W committed to reconciling the MR, or is it more like she wants to just see if her feelings change? B/c if she waits for YOU to change her feelings, while she does nothing....it will not render very successful results.

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So i truly believe she knows and understands that the A is wrong and hurtful-- even as she knows that at least part of her WANTS the A/OM. Why did she admit to "there was a kiss"? No reason for her to do that, since she is still in denial mode.

Of course she understands her actions are wrong and hurtful. I have explained why she would admit to a kiss, but not admit to more. This is not uncommon for people suspected in an affair. They may admit to a level below the true extent of their actions.

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She also has not demonstrated any of the manipulative mindset that WWs supposedly have-- she is not taking advantage of my increased usefulness around the house, etc, is still pulling her own weight, and is not expecting me to cater to her.

Neither did I. However, from what I have learned, most WW's do.

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So, idunno. It seems like I in some ways I am pretty far off the tracks, here, DB-wise, and putting all of my eggs in the faith/MC basket.

I hear some confusion in your post, and a lot of what I think is you trying to convince us, and mostly yourself, that your W is not as bad as the WW example I often describe. Plus, you said you feel you are way off the DB reservation. Not sure why you think it doesn't go hand & hand with faith. Confusion can happen when newcomers are getting different advice some various sources at one time. You don't know which way to go.

That's a decision you will need to make. Have you talked to your DB coach since the MC session?

Hey, Sandi, thanks.

Some of what you ask is covered a bit (or at least lent context) by my most recent post/response, which you might have missed as it rolled over to page 8. I would like you to read that to see what you think, but, as to your questions:

1) and 2) The counselor did cover the A somewhat, although we got off into alot of pretty heavy stuff early that just involved my W and my past and that took ALOT of time/tears/etc. On the A itself, she did stress that it needed to end, that there needed to be no contact, and that there needed to be absolute honesty between W and me. My W did, as i said, admit to some new stuff ("a kiss") that hadn't been admitted before, but also downplayed it in some ways (there were pretty explicit phone conversations that, IMHO, unless they actually slept together, were the most egregious offenses and these were not mentioned other than her saying "we probably said and texted some things that we shouldn't have."). MC asked how I felt about knowing they "had kissed" to which I responded "of course it hurts, although I did pretty much already know that the relationship was more involved than my W had been telling me." My W also indicated that "the (cheating) phone has gone back" and that she and OM are "not talking". The former was not true at the time of the MC session as she had, as I mentioned, re-acquired the phone and did not return it to her bff until this past Sunday (I think-- either that or she is really being uncharacteristically secretive and cautious with it), and the latter is, it appears, technically "true" even as I STRONGLY suspect she is at least following him on FB and possibly/probably even messaging him. I had asked you about that angle (FB and confronting her about it since my knowledge of that did not involve "snooping") in my most recent post. I do feel like she has not completely "cut the cord" and is more like "putting the OM/A on hold until we see about this counselling angle" rather than "saying goodbye to the OM/A and working full-bore on the MR. She is definitely closer to "I want to find out if I can feel that way again about you" or "I want to find out if it is possible to rekindle the marriage" as opposed to "we are going to work on this MR and do everything we can to see if we can fix it." Feel like she can't be the latter unless she completely cuts the cord with the OM and leaves the A behind. Not quite sure how she gets there, though. I could push her on the FB angle and discuss again how I want us to focus on us, but not sure how receptive she would be to that. I think cutting the FB cord would definitely help, as being a FB friend with this guy she is constantly seeing all the stuff he is posting (he is very active on FB) and it sort of keeps her "in contact" and thinking about him. She might rebel at that and resume other contact, though. Really eager to hear your thoughts on this particular angle.

3) Dont know that I am trying to justify her or minimize her actions so much as understand them. Based on everything she says and everything I know, I am pretty positive there has been no sex between her and OM (though they sure as heck have talked about it.) Don't know why this should make a difference to me, but it does. This is a woman with a strong sex drive and for her to still not do that with someone she is attracted to after already "crossing the line" so to speak tells me that there is something there-- loyalty to me, to the family/kids (most likely), or even to her faith-- that is still keeping for going all the way over. Don't know if that should be cause for hope or not. She just doesn't seem to have that fully "cold" WW heart, even as she is clearly wayward in some sense. The biggest overlay is, I believe, what you would call "resentment" towards how I treated/neglected her all those years. And it was a LOONG time. THAT is going to be the biggest hurdle to overcome. She says "those feelings (intimacy/romantic love) have been gone a long, long time" and I believe her completely. But the problem is not just the absence of romantic love, but rather the negative feelings towards me (and we discussed this in the MC a bit and also afterwards) that put me actually in a LESS favorable position towards her than even some random guy on the street. Sometimes when I compliment her, or when I reach out to touch her physically, there is something there she finds (not always, but sometimes) actually "repulsive" or perhaps "repulsing" for lack of a better term. She noted that "he's a completely different guy, now, but I am not interested in that guy, either." (Ugh.)

4) I am actually pretty sure in the larger picture where I am going with this. I am committed to the MC, now. Even moreso now since she seems to be making somewhat of an effort to limit/cut contact with the OM. I am taking those efforts as a sign from God that I am doing the right thing and that I and the DB coach and you (Sandi) were right that I should hold off and not have a "show-down" confrontation with her over her continued contact with OM. WRT "no contact", we appear to be moving in the right direction, but I would like to see her agree to device/internet/social-media transparency on that (which is something I had been hoping the MC would directly address but did not) and particularly for her to cut FB contact with OM. So, in that vein, I am wondering how to approach that angle. I had suggested it to her previously several weeks back at our first "NC" conversation but had not "insisted" on it. Her take had been "what's the point when I could just open up new accounts?" I feel like I could bring it up without raising snooping fears since she SHOWED ME her FB page with the OM's name at the top (she apparently did not realize this), but also fear it could poison the waters and/or set us back. My inclination is to do it anyway in the spirit of "full honesty" that the MC advised, and to do it "offline", between us, as I don't necessarily want to "call her out" in front of the MC and threaten the "safety" of that forum. My approach would be simply to say "look, I really really appreciate what you are doing here, going to counselling, participating in it, and making the effort to see where we can go, and also the efforts you have taken to cut contact with the OM. HOWEVER... I know from you showing me your FB page last week that he is still a significant presence in your on-line world, and that is something I am not comfortable with and which makes it harder for me to trust you and to fully engage in this process we are going through now."

On the "interactions" front, she has said it is hard for her and sometimes she feels "Trapped/smothered" by the situation, but also that she does have fun when we spend time together or go out, even when she is hesitant at first. She agrees that there will be no "rekindling" as long as the two of us together are all "sad/serious talks" and all of her "fun fun times" are with other friends. We have discussed, both at MC and on our own since then, what she wants and feels comfortable with... Me saying I am not always sure what I should and shouldn't be asking her to do based on things she has said about how she feels about me, and her responding that she wants me to feel free to ask her (Example of this was her wanting to dance on Saturday night when we were out and me not asking her-- she said she was not sure how she would have felt about it but she was open to doing it and that I should ask her in those situations.) NOTE: I have projected alot of confidence in these types of situations in the past and still do-- I told her upfront I had wanted to ask her but did not out of respect for her space and what she had said in the MC sessions about being hesitant sometimes about "touch" with me. At any rate, it seems like maybe she wants to be pursued here a little bit, and MC seems to be preaching that we find time to spend together both a) socially/fun AND b) "working dates" to discuss the marital issues. Since we are doing the MC for at least the next few weeks, I am also going to do these things. Since she is not, at the moment, "attracted" to me, however, I am going to have to try to balance that with my own GAL activities and try to, as much as possible, inject that element of mystery to what I am doing at times. Will be a hard balancing act.

I very much AM still committed to the faith-based angle on this. Very clearly a LOT of damage has been done, and much of it by me, to my MR with my W, through years of neglect, etc. I know that I am not going to change her mind and that I am not going to be able to "talk her into loving/wanting me." It's going to be up to God to soften her heart in that direction and then for her to make the choice to move back towards me. That is out of my hands. Going to have to try to keep on working on my own happiness in the interim to make sure that I am a more attractive "destination."

Would appreciate any other thoughts you have, especially after reading this as well as my other more recent post from today.

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Finally, for color (and this came up again last night as well) she feels as if "all of the problems we have were there before the OM entered the picture" and I know from hearing her talk previously that she thinks or at least thought that she can "separate the two" -- meaning our MR and the OM feelings--"in her mind."

I felt the same way as your W. I even wanted to blame my A on my H, b/c I felt I would have never turned to another man if my H had put forth effort in filling my emotional needs.

I've been reading posts from LBH's for quite a while, and from what I see, they tend to focus on the W's affair as being the main issue in their problems........while the W brings up old issues (resentments) from their marital history, and/or claims her feelings of love is gone.

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she is still a little protective of her phone when she is Facebooking, which makes me suspicious. (As a reminder, we do not have any type of "transparency" agreement or understanding concerning social media and phones).

If the MC did not discuss with your W about how any type of an affair is additive, then it's like she's going into battle unarmed. She needs the information, so she'll understand why she has such strong urges to contact OM. Otherwise, she won't stick to any type of transparency. When a woman is battling those desires and overcomes it, she will want support, and will need to cooperate in the transparency plan as her backup for a job well done. She's like the kid who wants to show a good report card, b/c she's earned it. When there's nothing to hide, why would she care if her H looks at her phone?

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She doesn't seem to be in the full-on depression/withdrawal I would expect if she had truly cut full contact,

The degree of depression certainly varies with the individual. I've lost track of how many days it's been since you decided she supposedly ended contact with OM. (And, you really are just hoping that she isn't talking to him, b/c you have nothing solid). Here's the thing, if she rocks along without ever showing a few signs of depression.....I would strongly suspect she's in contact with him.

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OTOH, she woke up Saturday (day after counselling) and told me later she felt "trapped and smothered", though she got over it later and we went out as I talked about earlier and had a really good time.

Feeling trapped and smothered can be a sign of initial withdrawing. This is a prime example of one of those times that will test her. This is when she'll want to look at FB to see his picture or post, check her phone messages, or call her BFF, etc., to get her through this suffocating period. Unless she has been told what to expect while going through this journey......how could she be expected to know what to do when the experiences hit her? Since she is working from emotions, the first thing a WW would incorrectly think is that she must really love OM b/c she has that urgency to hear from him. Actually, she wants to feed the "high" she gets from it. Her thoughts are about him, and she is tempted to drive by the bar or whatever. So.....there needs to be some type of support system that not only informs her what to expect and what to do, but support and encourages her to stay focused in the right direction.

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So, how do you think I should play all this? Am I truly, in your opinion, at "no contact"? If so, should I try to insist on FB/phone transparency, too (and remember I have a basis to bring this up that doesn't involve snooping) and at what point and in what manner or would that, in your opinion, risk pushing her away?

Well, I still don't know your plan. Why didn't you discuss transparency with the MC? What was the blueprint she gave you, other than spending more time together and dating? That advice, alone, is not very sufficient when one spouse is in an active affair......or coming out of an affair. B/c the spouse coming out of an affair needs a heck of alot more instructions other than spending more time with her husband! Plus, the betrayed spouse needs to know what to expect in the coming days.

Her feelings for OM are probably not going to suddenly come to an abrupt halt and loving feelings for her H immediately flood her soul. It's usually not that simple or that fast. She has to get the OM out of her head completely, before she can feel true marital love (respect/attraction/desire) for her H. It's like cleaning out a water well. She will have to remove all the crud that causes the contamination, before the well can fill with clean water.

If she doesn't know that that's ^^^^ the process she will need to go through, in order for her "feelings" to change toward you......then what happens? It's not a doable plan for her to say she wants to just see if her feelings change. If they change, it will be the result of hard work......from both of you, but in different ways.

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I still in a bit of limbo as her pattern doesn't seem to fit the WW norm in all respects,

Well, I don't know what more it would take for you to believe it.....but don't let this be your stumbling block. Neither, should your doubt about her waywardness be used as your excuse to take a softer or easier approach at this point in the journey. And the reason I am saying this to you, is b/c you are not the first H to say these things when faced with making a difficult decision in what plan to follow. Some H's say they don't think their W is really a WW.
Every individual wayward wife is not cut with the same cookie cutter. However, she will have enough similar characteristics, that sets her apart from the WAW....IMHO. As far as I can determine, waywardness begins with the same foundation of disrespect & resentment, which finally goes to rebellion. There are actions in your W that were not in me, but that doesn't mean I wasn't wayward. See what I mean?

If I could talk to her, I would explain how she isn't required to have the right feelings, in order to do the right thing. The feelings will eventually follow the actions. Which of course, is not what a WW wants to hear, b/c she operates from a position of emotion. To her, everything is about her feelings. Her most difficult part is to seriously kill the affair dead in its tracks. No last meeting for "closure", and no tapering off. She has to be willing to delete and block everything linked to him. She would need to know to expect some feelings of frustration, discontent, blue/down, discouraged, etc.......but this is not a sign that the M won't work. It will be her emotionally withdrawing from the "high" she got from the affair. These negative feelings will pass. It may take a few weeks, or longer....but if she won't contact or receive contacts from the OM....these feelings will stop. This is a process of getting the contamination out, so her loving feelings can return.

This post is too long, so I won't continue (in this post) with the steps to take in recovering from a WW in an affair. And I won't push you to do what I suggest, if I know you don't want it.

Sandi--

This is all really, really helpful stuff. And, yes, i do want to do whatever needs to be done (despite the length of your posts)

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We DID actually discuss the addictive nature of these things at the MC session, and even I chimed in with how intoxicating it had been for me to experience women coming up to me and even just flirting on the couple of occasions it has happened when I have been out with friends since BD. MC also discussed the importance of transparency but, disappointingly, did not have us implement any sort of plan. She(MC) DID indicate we could call her any time in interim if issues cropped up AND she had told me previously (in our one on one session) that she usually preferred, and was open to, clients coming to her directly when "NC" issues arose rather than slugging it out on their own. for my part, i DO feel strongly that we should seize the bull by the horns, here, since my W is showing SOME willingness to play along. I am just not sure if I should a) bring it up with W and just hash it out (it was her slip up, after all, that revealed the contact), b) bring it up with W and say "why don't we call the MC and talk about this with her or c) call the MC on my own and see what she advises-- though i hesitate to do this latter one now that we are actually in couples counselling. To clarify from earlier, I have no compunction about confronting W on any of this and, if will recall, was fully willing to separate if it came to that and she refused to end contact. Right NOW, it appears she may be willing to try this, so I don't necessarily want to drop the hammer on her but i DO think something like the softer approach I suggested in my prior post might be appropriate (I.e. "I really appreciate what you are doing here, but I keep thinking about all we talked about with the counselor and it is going to be really hard for me rebuild trust with you if I keep wondering about the FB contact that I saw was going on when you showed me your page last week. Maybe we should call the counselor and talk about this some.") I think this would be difficult and, based on her past pattern, she might "draw away" from me some based on my insistence on addressing this, BUT... since it is not a snooping/prying thing, I think we and the counselling process could ultimately survive it IF the MC handled it adroitly (which I think she would based on previous discussions.) Maybe even suggest to her that this is something she could work a bit directly with the MC first if she were uncomfortable talking about it to me? I really feel that involving the MC in some respect would be beneficial as she is a "neutral third party" here.Does any of that sound reasonable to you? (I cannot talk to me DB coach until next week at this point, and this is something I feel should be addressed before that. Like, right away before she "slips" too much.)

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She initially agreed to NC on 5/3. She kept that, as far as I know unless FB/office calls played a role, until 5/12. I actually believe she was doing it as she was surly, moody, left the marital bedroom for several days, and then did a couple of drive bys of the OMs bar, not going in, which I can't see her doing unless she was out of contact. That all fell apart on 5/12 during the drunken evening with me, her, and bff, and was followed by two weeks of contact of various sorts, including at least four "meet ups". More recently, she appears to have somewhat recommitted as of 6/1, under the parameters that I have described to you in my most recent posts. FWIW. So, we are roughly 9 days removed from her last known "in person" contact (pretty confident on this one) and two days removed from her apparent returning of the "cheater phone".

I have a very strong feeling that God is guiding me and others in this thing. Things keep getting moved around on our schedules that seem to open up things at the right time. Right now, you seem very engage on this (thank you) and I could really use your insight on how you think I should proceed with pushing (or not pushing) further transparency/no-contact issue with my W (and remember that we are still in a place where my last statement to her on this is "I wont share you and won't live in an open marriage and wont continue as is while you are in contact with OM"-- if/when I bring this up with her, she will then "know that I know" that she has been in contact with him. Right now she doesn't know that. My plan would be to find a nice, quiet time in the next evening or two to broach this with her in the manner I suggested above and in my prior post and suggest taking it to the MC. If i just bring it up "between us", she could refuse and it could result in an unresolvable disagreement where I would have to "crap or get off the pot" on my boundary. If we take it to the MC, we get a) a "neutral third party" she might be more likely to listen to and b) a recommendation, presumably, that she cut contact which, if she refuses, gives me some more cover to say "we're not ready for this right now, maybe we need to think about looking at how we would go our separate ways" (which I am quite willing to do.-- but I think she would ultimately agree, perhaps grudgingly, with what MC suggested.) Only other question would be whether or not I should go to the MC on my own, first, to give her a heads up (to which I think MC would be receptive as she has counseled us both individually previously and with me has discussed the OM/A and "no contact" dynamics, but with which I am not entirely comfortable on priniciple.

Whaddaya think? (ANd, again, given the "fulcrum moment" i appear to be in here, I really, really, really appreciate your responsiveness.

Thanks!!!!!

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems you want me to tell you what to do......but you want to follow the MC.

Not sure I can, b/c the MC skirted around the fact your W is cheating. Other than advising to spend more time together and date......I have not seen any solid blueprint from her. And how long before the next scheduled session?

I hope you understand that I write with the purpose of telling (mostly H's) what he is dealing with in the WW, and what works and doesn't work from the standpoint of the WW. I have zero confidence in bubblegum counseling that's handed out to couples with a wayward wife. Let me remind you that EVERYTHING in this relationship with your WW is tied to her current lack of respect for you as a man. Therefore, nothing will work until she respects you as a man (first) and as her H. She can play the game and say things to "indicate"........till the end of time. But it will not change her heart, and desire you as her husband. There are many women filling the role of W, but true attraction and desire are absent in their hearts. At best, they are companions.......or as most people call it.....friends. I said all of that b/c I want you to measure the advice you are given, and the actions you decide to take, by what kind of man you want her to see in you. ( Don't confuse this with what you've been told about making improvements for yourself, etc.). Along with the advice given, ask yourself if the actions would affect your dignity, self esteem, or compromise your integrity.

We can help with the woman's point of view, and I may be able to help from the WW POV. The guys can help from their experiences. Ultimately, the actions will be your decision. This is your life.........your MR........and your W. Although you may not understand a lot about her current mindset......you have a history together and know her. Okay?

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DO feel strongly that we should seize the bull by the horns, here, since my W is showing SOME willingness to play along. I am just not sure if I should a) bring it up with W and just hash it out (it was her slip up, after all, that revealed the contact), b) bring it up with W and say "why don't we call the MC and talk about this with her or c) call the MC on my own and see what she advises-- though i hesitate to do this latter one now that we are actually in couples counselling

A) Bring what up? The affair she doesn't know you know about? The lie about her no contact? But would this not be part of that toughness you wanted to avoid?
B). Why call the MC to talk about it, when you didn't talk about it in the sessions?
C). So you want to confront your WW, and then call up the MC to talk to her?

Here's what I'm seeing. You get advice from one source and you are all gung ho to follow it. Then you get somewhat different advice and you are gung ho with it. However, you can't seem to let go of the idea of confronting her! I would have to go back and read the first few posts of advice, but I'm thinking confrontation may have been suggested right off the bat. And......in spite of what else you hear, you go right back to confronting her. You may not use the word "confrontation", but I assume that's what you mean by "bringing it up". You want to confront her about contacting the OM. Now understand something here.......I am not debating your boundary statement, although I didn't particularly like the fashion you used. I am not debating the fact she did not honor your boundary. I am wanting you to say why you think "bringing it up" will have different results than any other confrontation? Frankly, I still think you have taken bits from here & there and may be confused..........or maybe you are confusing me. We seem to be repeating ourselves a lot.

I've asked it previously and I'll ask it again.........what are you expecting it to accomplish? A relationship talk? You guys talked all the way back from the counseling session, but none of this was mentioned. Why? Why do you want to do it now after the sessions are over and you are back home again?

I am trying to make you think about what and why you want to confront her. The last time you tried it, you made a mess. Waking her from a dead sleep and proclaiming how you wouldn't stay if you were ever betrayed (or something along those lines). You basically put words in her mouth about no more contact with OM. Of course, she did not honor it, and you've been itching to confront her again. You say you want to stay on the path of the MC..........so why do continue to bounce back on this point of confronting her about contacting the OM? It's like you are saying you want to go the soft husband-friend route.......but in the meantime, you want to confront her about NC.

Confrontation alone does not accomplish anything but letting her know that you know or suspect. If you turn around and want her to talk to the MC.......then why not wait for the MC bring it up in the C session?

In a sense (especially since you think your WW could possibly be responding to this MC), I think you want it both ways. However, to have been a day of intensive counsling, it doesn't appear that your MC gave specific and clear "how to" instructions to get the results you want to currently see. It is not good enough for the MC to just "indicate" that transparency and honesty are important and that the affair would need to stop. Then she sends you home for a month (?) without a plan, other than spending time together? I don't know about you.....but it frustrates the heck out of me!

I think you need to just sleep on it tonight. I'll try to post more tomorrow.

I get the concept of the WW. I get the necessity for respect. If you will recall, right now my W does not know that I "know" about her breaking NC. (Other than that I suspect it might have been possible that one night two weeks ago, but she doesn't know I know for sure, which I do.) She also doesn't know I know she has been in touch (and likely recently, too) via FB, even though it was she herself who showed me her page last week. Also noteworthy, however, is that she returned the "Cheater phone" which she did not even know that I knew she had reprocured. No reason for her to give that up unless she was sincere, at least with herself, about making some sort of effort and living up to her promise. Note that I am NOT saying that I think she is suddenly abandoning her wayward ways... just that I think that a window may be open for her to do so, or at least for her to establish true "no contact", and that she has made several hard steps in that direction.. YES, i wish the MC had talked in more specifics about the A and about HOW to get past and deal with the "NC" phase, but she did not. Some of that may be partially my fault as I did not press my W or call her out or indicate any angst more than that my trust had been damaged, but I had thought that MC wanted me to let her take the lead on that. She DID however give us alot more to do than just "spending time together". At any rate... THAT is where we are now.

In a vacuum, without the counselling, I am probably saying "look, I just can't trust what's going on here, can't live this way, we need to move on separately." Honestly, I get very confused by you sometimes... you seem to be saying both "you should be standing up for yourself and putting your foot down here" but also "no, you really shouldn't be doing that now." My feeling is that I should bring up the transparency. Maybe NOT by saying "I say OM on your feed", but just by saying "I think this is something we need to do and without which I can't trust you." Or I could just drop the bomb based on the previous breaks of NC and the absence of any real clarity on the issue from the MC.

The problem with the latter course of action is that she CLEARLY has done some things to break contact. I don't want to waste this opportunity. I also feel like if I "blow up" the counselling now that W is going to have a very hard time trusting me on any such efforts in the future. I'm just not sure why exploring transparency here, either jointly or with MC, would be a bad idea, unless it is just in the way that I am going about it. I could, of course, "insist" on it, which I would be willing to do but, as you note, there is no gaurantee she would comply. Really seems to me as if we/she could use extra guidance from MC but... how to get there.

What I want to accomplish is simply one of two things, Either:

1) If she is sincerely making efforts on "no contact", to get her the help and resources and guidance and support she needs to complete that effort... including cutting FB and all other contact.

OR

2) If she is "playing" me or the process somehow, or not truly willing to cut contact or work on things at the moment, then I want her to UNDERSTAND that i AM willing to separate, that I will not tolerate contact with the OM or other similar disprespectful behavior, and that we are, as of now, DONE.

It just doesn't seem that I can establish that "2" is the case, even as it most definitely WAS the case as of a week ago. I was absolutely ready to pull the plug then and everyone was telling me to "wait, wait... see what the counselling brings". Well, the counselling SEEMS to have brought a return of my wife towards efforts to cut contact and maybe even work on the marriage. Do I now pull the plug?

And sorry if I seem frustrated its just... Arrrggh. It seems like my question is a pretty simple one: Good idea or bad idea at this time to broach the transparency issue with W, either in a vacuum OR alternatively in the context of "look, I saw this when you showed me your FB last week and I waited to bring it up because the MC session was so close but now I think we need to address it since we didnt get to it at MC."

I also really think you mischaracterize what I have done in at least a couple of instances. I did not "put words in her mouth", and the "NC discussion" was a planned "talk", not from a "dead sleep". I am also not all that "hot for a confrontation", BUT... I do NOT fear one. We already went over the best way to approach that if it ever comes up, and I am TOTALLY ON BOARD WITH and understanding OF that: Dont say what I know or how I know it, stick with MY boundary ("I can't/wont continue with things as they are"), etc. etc

I am STRICTLY, in this one particular element, trying to discern whether or not and, if so, how, to address the issue of phone/internet transparency and help my W "get to" a true "no contact" dynamic (if possible.) And, yes, I know there is no way to ever guarantee that, but... THAT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE THE CASE. IF that uncertainty is truly a show stopper then WHY EVER TRY TO SHOOT FOR THAT (No Contact).

Alternately, If she IS full-on deceiving me, I will know fairly soon and then I will enforce my boundary. That has always been my plan and hasn't changed. I dont intend to live that way.

As to the counselor, she really did seem to have a good grip on the WW/Affair dynamic in the individual session and in correspondence. Not sure why she didn't give us a more specific plan on transparency (she had indicated to me that she advocated pretty stringent and specific protocols) except that we ran short of time. This would be another reason i thought it might be appropriate to circle back with her.

I really dont think I am as directionless/clueless as you seem to think I am. Just a little uncertain on this one point. I know you have a lot of followers on here, but go back and read some of my thread which might clear things up a bit.

Thanks, as usual, for your time an insights.

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And I get what you are saying here ^^^^^^^^^^^^^. You don't have to repeat it.

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It just doesn't seem that I can establish that "2" is the case, even as it most definitely WAS the case as of a week ago. I was absolutely ready to pull the plug then and everyone was telling me to "wait, wait... see what the counselling brings". Well, the counselling SEEMS to have brought a return of my wife towards efforts to cut contact and maybe even work on the marriage. Do I now pull the plug?

I don't think you fully understand my position. Yes, I agreed with the DB coach about waiting, b/c you were not grounded enough......and b/c it was just a few days till the MC sessions. I am not trying to talk out of both sides of my mouth. You have basically told me that you preferred to take the advice of the MC........and I was trying to explain that what I tell you could hinder the MC's advice.........and her advice could hinder mine. So far, you have been vague in saying what she gave you to do after you returned home.....but at this point, I'm tired of rehashing the same thing.....so don't go into it again. There is too much time consumed in writing these posts, going back & forth and neither of us getting our questions answered.

I'll be back in a couple of hours. If you want to hear what I have to say about the steps to take in approaching her on the NC and transparency.......I will lay it out. I wanted you to see the position it put me by saying you wanted to follow the MC.......then asking "me" how to approach your W on these issues. I can tell you my opinion, if you want it. But I don't know that it will blend with the counselor's advice.

Anyway, I will return in a few hours and maybe we can start with a somewhat clean slate.

I understand, Sandi, and thanks for sticking with me, here. I would of course be interested in whatever you have to say/post. I am, as you know, trying to "put this in God's hands" as much as possible. To me that appeared from all indications to see how the MC went. It went, in my estimation, fairly well, and my W has clearly taken some steps that she didn't even have to such as returning the cheating phone I didn't even know existedthat I find encouraging. BUT... the continued (presumed) FB contact as well as the lack of transparency are not making me comfortable. MC discussed "complete" transparency in the context of the A, and told us to talk about it between ourselves and work on solutions but did not give us any clear guidelines on doing so. I just don't want to miss an opportunity here for my W to fully embrace the "NC", if you even think that that is possible.

DB Coach had told me to "wait" not just because I "wasn't grounded" but because she thought there appeared to be an opening based on thing my W had said and done (legit interest she showed in the MC process, for example) and didn't want to torpedo that with a confrontation. Also advised me to think very carefully about everything I said and the way I approached W (even if I did decide to drop the rope or cut the cord or whatever due to NC violation) and couch things in terms of MY feelings and MY limits so as not to come across as attacking or say anything that might seriously (further) damage the relationship (such as things that might necessarily indicate I had been snooping/spying or things that were outright and specifically accusatory.)

Hope this helps. I just... Darnit.

Okay.....(taking a deep breath).....

For right now, I suggest you not think in terms of confronting her about about contacting OM....since she is not aware that you know. The definition of a confrontation is: a hostile or argumentative meeting or situation between opposing parties. So for right now.....let's not use that term. We are not confronting in this post, okay?

When things feel calm and relaxed between the two of you, and you feel the timing is good....casually open a conversation about the MC. This conversation should not have accusations. I am going to give a little example of a conversation.

YOU: "Wife, I appreciate you going with me to see the MC. I've been doing a lot of thinking about what she said on the importance of transparency, and perhaps you have also. How do you feel about putting some sort of transparency plan in place? Are you willing to be transparent, if you knew it would give me some assurance?" (Wait to see if she comments. If she's unwilling, then you might as well not say anymore about it, b/c transparency requires her full cooperation).

(Continue on) "Without your cooperation, it would be a complete waste of time and effort. I realize it would not prevent you from having a secret affair, if that's what you choose to do. I [i]do feel it would help to regain trust in the M, if there was more transparency...... don't you?" [/i]

*******************************************************************

I'm not the best in wording conversations, but here's some things I want YOU to understand about what I've written in that example above. First off, if she's not serious about ending her contact with OM....or even if she's seriously considering it....she's not going to be thrilled about you seeing her messages. Nobody likes for someone looking at their private messages. However, once lies and betrayal have come into the M....this can be an opportunity for the wayward to freely give accountability, if they want to save their M. More than likely, she'll protest and say you just want to control her. But if you don't approach this like you are insisting or demanding that she be transparent, maybe she'll surprise me and go for it. Doesn't mean she'll honor it, but we'll get to that part later.

Secondly, if you start listing all the ways you want to see what she's doing (phone messages, email, FB, etc., etc.)....it will sound like "control issues" to her ears. So, I don't think you should start out with a list of "don'ts". Do you get this? B/c I kept asking you why it was so important to confront her.....and you never gave me a straight answer to my questions!

And....this is NOT a confrontation about anything. Do not bring up about her breaking the no contact boundary. Not here. Not during this conversation, b/c we are trying to start a new reference line.

Do not go on & on. If she won't agree to cooperate, then drop it. If she asks what she'd have to do, then suggest what would make you feel more secure. The main goal of this conversation is to have her agreement, or have her refusal to cooperate in transparency. Do not get unreasonable about what you want from her. In past times, we have had some real LBH doozies that gave some whooper ideas of a so-called transparency plan. I thought some of it was ridiculous, and I would never have consented to it. In fact, it took me awhile before I started coming around to the whole transparency idea. After seeing how it helped me when I had decided to end my A.....I realized it was a means to help the WW withdraw from the OM if she really wanted to save her M. But there are many other apps available for cheaters to use, so this method does not prevent her from lying or cheating. Does that make any sense? (I could see why it sounds like I'm contradicting myself). I think in order to be really helpful, the WW has to want to show H her truth. But it won't make her do anything. If she can agree with it, then that's a beginning.

Sandi, thanks!!!! That is EXTREMELY helpful. I can tell that you thought a great deal about that and put alot of effort into wording it carefully and precisely (so that my dim/addled brain would understand it.)

It is consistent both with what you have said in the past and with what my DB coach has advised.

WRT "confrontation", that is good advice both syntactically and from a mindset standpoint. As to why I would "want" to "confront" her, I honestly, right NOW, do NOT want to "confront" her. I am quite willing to let all that has gone in the past go (particularly since she does not "know I know" and, in theory, her "respect" for me would not be AS damaged by me "letting it pass" as it would be if she "knew i knew" and was choosing to not enforce my boundary) if she is, in fact, willing and ready to give this thing a shot.

I also understand that this would not "prevent" her from doing anything. But maybe, just maybe, it gives her a "lifeline" to help her keep out of trouble. Anecdote in this regard... In car last Saturday, bff calls her and says "hey, can you 'steal away' and give me a few minutes tonight"? W mentions this to me and I say "yeah, you could do that, but why don't we take our time getting home, stop at (a few places I mention) and spend some time together." She agrees, and doesn't object and ultimately doesn't go out to meet up with bff (which has as often as not in recent months also meant a meet up with OM). In recent past she would have been insistent on going to bff, I think. Similarly, Monday she wanted to take a drive out toward our downtown area to "familiarize herself with the streets" (which are a BIT tricky over there but--ahem-- we have lived here for 18 years) because she had to take my son over there for an appointment. No reason for her really to do that except that it is very close to both Om's house and fave hangout, so chance for her to do a "drive-by". I offered to look up address and print her a detailed map and directions and she did not get at all defensive or object. And she has been getting home earlier in general. Small, small, small things, yes. But I truly believe she is trying.

hoosjim you are in an interesting situation. For me the issue is W wants to be friends with OM. I am afraid to ask sandi2's advice on that as she will likely say that OM needs to be gone from her life. But I wonder if not forcing that until we have met with a MC or until she has been more confident about my changes being real.

I can tell you that confrontation is not a good idea. I kind of pushed it and pushed her away. I can not control how she reacts. I can only control how I act. But I can see your pain and frustration. You want a sign that she is fully committed to you again. Only time will tell that. And I say that as a very very VERY impatient person who still can act on impulse.

Also, I am assuming that you would think I would not at all want to bring the OM into this, even obliquely, for instance by saying anything like "I know this is probably hard on you, and based on what we talked about at the MC that ending these types of relationships can be painful and traumatic, so I really appreciate all the things you have done recently to try to focus on "us"(?) I am assuming I would want to leave all "education" and "theory" about difficulty in ending A's to the MC.

On second thought, based on what you said, reading that back to myself seems to be moving towards "confrontation" territory a bit, so my inclination would be NOT to go there. Was just looking for extra ways to recognize/appreciate what she HAS done and empathize with what i know is a difficult undertaking for her.

Thanks again, Sandi!!!

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Also, I am assuming that you would think I would not at all want to bring the OM into this, even obliquely,

I suggest you do not bring up the OM, nor your suspicions. This is not the time to state boundaries. This conversation should be limited to one subject, which is transparency. If she asks why she "has to do it", you tell her it is her decision and you cannot force her. Also, I think it's important that both of you understand that this is not about you policing your wife.

As a WW, she may be very resistant and immediately think that this is a way for you to lord authority over her activity. It is nothing like you are the parent and she's the child that has to ask you if she can do such & such. It is important that both of you understand that transparency is not handing you the reigns to control your W. As I stated in the last post, there have been some betrayed H's who became obsessed in reading all the emails and other messaging. Some H's get caught up in tying to regain or shift the balance of control.......and that is not the purpose of transparency. The whole point of transparency is to assist in healing the broken trust. Do not become obsessed and forget to focus on your own improvements, goals and GAL.

For your own sake, don't go back through all her old messaging. If she is willing to work with you, then start from that day in going forward. I suggest you not access her messaging every day. You may learn how or why it can have an addictive pull, and that would not be healthy, nor promote trust.

Don't constantly check up on her..........and do not drill her about her day or something you've read.

She doesn't need to sit by you while you grade her papers, so to speak. In other words, she won't know when you decide to look. The first few days don't count much, b/c she will be on "good behavior" knowing you are watching.

And all of what I've said about transparency, is as if she is going to agree. If she reacts badly.......then stop where you are and do not insist she has to do it. Without her willingness.....then there is no transparency.

Transparency and "snooping" are not the same, IMHO. Transparency is when a person says you can see, and snooping is when they are not willing......but you look anyway.

If she is not on board, then it's your decision to snoop and track, or not. If she's not willing, or changes passwords........I think that's pretty telling she has something to hide.

After the plan has been in place and she is cooperating, you may need to revisit it later and discuss something that makes you uncomfortable. However, don't do it in the initial discussion about transparency.

Not letting this initial discussion roll over into other concerns, may be challenging for you. I think it is better to take one thing at a time. Right now, it is transparency.......and nothing else.

Don't rush into it before you feel confident that you thoroughly understand the purpose and how it works.

Sandi, you were right. Darnit you were right.

Wayward as the day is long.

She balked (well, evaded would be a better descriptor) at the transparency discussion. So I didn't push it. Then, last night, she meets me at happy hour and works into the conversation that she has deleted FB from her phone. Okay, i don't question her about that because we were having a nice time and wasn't really sure where to go with it. Today, during a quiet moment I ask her if she did that because of our conversation and she says "yes, partly", but then she had to go before we could discuss more. Of course later, on my own FB feed, which I leave running pretty much constantly on one of my three screens during the day, i see her pop up as "active" on the messenger/chat screen several times (apparently she doesn't know about this feature since she does not use FB on a PC. So, how is she on FB if she uninstalled and cant use her work PC? Easy, that great gesture she made by returning the phone, either she didn't actually and hid it well or she procured another one. I went ahead and decided to "snoop" for the first time in a couple of weeks. She drove out after work to the OM's fave bar. Didn't go in, but called him on NOT her regular phone. Tearful conversation... "It took me over an hour to get her, I want to come in and see you so bad, but I know then i wont want to leave. I want to run away with you etc. etc, but cant right now" Alot of other stuff-- think she may be toying with idea of trying to see him tomorrow. My sense--on actually pretty good intel (she just hasn't had the opportunity--no real snooping involved) is that she has been "no seeing" if obviously not "no contacting" the past week and a half to two weeks, but she is NOT happy about it and really thinks this is the guy for her. She felt trapped/smothered day after counselling a week ago and I overheard her murmur in half-frantic voice "I cant stand this." Possibly doing it just as show, but sounds like she is maybe trying a little bit, at least on the seeing part. Maybe closure contact? I don't know. But she clearly hasn't and doesnt intend to cut the entire affair off at the knees.

I am NOT going to "charge at her like a bull" but... I am really not sure which course to take, here. She still does not know that I know about her violation of my boundaries and the extent to which she has. I could take action to protect those... as discussed previously: not revealing what I know or how i know, calmly, rationally, stating my position "we need to make arrangements to go our separate ways, starting immediately", I think "she should leave the marital home" etc etc.

I could also just opt to ride it out, hoping against hope that she is starting to turn, that she is struggling to break free of the affair and that she ultimately will with the help of the MC. I honestly in my heart do not believe this latter course of action will work. I have allowed a simple texting relationship to become a full blown romantic infatuation by my inaction and, indeed, by my early actions which could probably even be seen as appeasement. i could have been much more effective stating my boundary and then enforcing it had I done so way back in january when this was first discovered. As it is,I let it fester and grow for five more months, now, and she is clearly, clearly (and I can see it now from both ends of the timeline) more strongly involved with the guy than she was in January. I have faith that God is in favor of marriage and the marital relationship, and that he wants good things ultimately for all his people, but... He gave us free will, and right now my wife's will is twisted against me (yes, yes, through my own doing and my ownneglect which i cannot undo now) and toward the OM.

I feel like the only rational course here is to sleep on it. Cool down until I know I can be completely rational, and then tell her we're through. We have had a good few weeks, with lots of talking, and a few good times out, and she has had time to notice my changes,
so maybe there's some hope. Not much, but some, God willing. I just feel that she is in a fog right now... the OM is her "soulmate"
and the only way to jar her out of it is if she thinks she might lose her family.

I know what I need to do on either course. I just don't know which course to choose.

And yes, I would still take her back, if she asked me to and seemed sincere, even with all I have heard. I just. I wish God would tell
me which way he wants me to turn, here.

My heart is just breaking all over again.

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She drove out after work to the OM's fave bar. Didn't go in, but called him on NOT her regular phone. Tearful conversation... "It took me over an hour to get her, I want to come in and see you so bad, but I know then i wont want to leave. I want to run away with you etc. etc, but cant right now" Alot of other stuff-- think she may be toying with idea of trying to see him tomorrow.

She is saying all of that stuff to get a reaction from the OM! She wants to see if he will be her knight in shining armor, who will whisk her away and ride off into the sunset. The best thing that could happen for her is if OM did not respond favorably. She's laying it on pretty thick, so he may start backing away.

You wanted to know what I recommended, but you started jumping to getting a divorce as soon as she didn't agree to transparency. There is something else you can do that can be very effective.

I assume you explained the purpose of transparency, and she refused. IMHO,she should get the message that that's not okay. You won't continue to do all the heavy lifting while she cheats on you. She not only refused to cooperate, but she went straight to contact OM. Therefore, it is my opinion that she should see things have taken a shift. I'm not suggesting you talk to her about it. I'm suggesting the next step should be to drop the rope.

What I am about to tell you will sound opposite to everything else you were previously told. That's b/c you are going to stop doing all those things to save the MR. Stop pursuing her. Stop doing things to show her you care. Stop being there for her. Stop spending time with her. Stop trying to have conversations with her. Stop all the stuff you were doing to get her back. Stop doing all that work that keeps you tied at home. Don't act mad or hurt at her. Just don't show any emotion, one way or the other. You don't have to prove anything, least of all how much you want to keep her. Don't worry if you appear mad or happy. Just let it go. She knows she is playing you!

If she starts putting on this little act of innocence and begins to question why you are being cold (or whatever), you can bet it's b/c she knows you are on to her affair. She will be determining if you are no longer interested in having a relationship with a liar and cheater, or if you still want to save the M. Let me inject something right here. Do not repeat how you don't want a divorce, and how you are willing to work on the M. Understand? Do not be an open book for her and replay everything again.

If she should ask you anything about your actions or thoughts toward the MR, your only response should be your boundary. If she starts playing games and ask if you think she's contacting OM, or whatever..........you can tell her you know she has lied to you about contacting OM. That's all you have to say. Do not give her details, b/c she will twist it around to where you are in the defensive box. Even if she starts crying and admits it, do not immediately comfort her and tell her you forgive her...........if that's your normal thing to do. Stand tall and don't waiver. Anyone can cry and say they didn't mean to hurt you, etc., etc. What you want to hear (without wringing it out of her) is that the affair is over and she is committed to doing the work to save the M. If you have to prompt her on what to say.......then I would doubt her intentions. Btw, there is no closure contact.

When you really drop the rope......she'll notice your interest in her is gone. In many cases with a WW, it will immediately put her in pursuit mode. And this can go a couple of ways......depending on the timing of everything else around her. 1) If she thinks she is really losing you, it could open her eyes and drop OM and work on her M.
2) She will try various things to test where you stand emotionally with her. We call it "temperature testing", b/c the response you have to her, tells her how easily she can emotionally manipulate you.

Dropping the rope is kind of like the last option in the last resort technique. It's effectiveness is based on the WW believing she's really losing you. I realize that may sound like a strange statement, considering her expressions of having no feelings left and being in an A, etc. But she has not been in the position of losing you. Both of you have seen this situation as you losing her. As long as she believes that dynamic, the less likely she will desire to work at keeping her M. The one thing the WW doesn't expect, is that her H will lose interest in her. Even though she may talk differently, she still doesn't expect to be the loser.

Anyway, I would choose to drop the rope, before deciding to divorce. I would even physically separate before divorcing.

Sandi, thanks. This seems like good advice, and pretty much straight out of the DB handbook.

My one question would be, in my sitch how do I handle the currently ongoing MC. We currently have two more sessions scheduled, this coming Friday and then two Fridays hence. Those have to be addressed. Dont think I can just ignore. Should I wait for her to mention them as they get closer and then be the same sort of casual/unemotional and say something like "really?" "Under the circumstances?" At any rate, assuming I should be cancelling them because no point in really trying to work on the MR while W is in the depths of an affair and not leveling with the MC.

Thanks again.

Also, and not saying I want to move toward divorce here, but once I have said "I know you're lying and contacting the OM" shouldn't I be at least insisting that she think about moving out, or is that the more extreme endgame if rope dropping doesn't produce results. (And I also remind you that my wife comes from an EXTREMELY neglectful situation, like 8-9 years, and has a lot of built up mistrust, etc. of me-- NO feelings of attraction near as I can tell). Not excusing her, just saying I am not so confident that she will start pursuing if I go back to ignoring her. It's not like I have been strongly pursuing her the past 4-5 months as is. Wouldn't some fear/concern about losing me AND the family and all that goes with it be some good medicine as well, or is that what the rope-dropping is supposed to convey? I wasn't saying I needed/wanted to move straight for divorce, though i am willing if it comes to that. Just seems like that possibility is one she should be contemplating, because i dont think she really is.

And, two last small questions related to conversations that might come up:

1) Related to the MC a bit-- We had had some exercises to do, things to discuss. If W brings these up assume my response is "not now" or "not interested."

2) We have a couple different family functions (one a vacation) coming up. The one was to be a beach getaway for the four of us (us and two kids). I dont know that I want to be participating in that sort of thing with her under the current circumstances. Do I look at cancelling that? Wiat for her to bring it up and say "I think we shouldn't go?" Or, just go ahead and go and play it cool/distant/rope-dropped the whole time? Hard to think about continnuing to prep for that

And the final knife twist on that last sitch (family beach vacation, scheduled for July 4th weekend) is that we were blowing off a bigger family lake-house vacation that my Dad puts on annually for mine and my two step-brothers' families every year at that same time. We were going to blow off my Dad, go away on our own, just the four of us (me, W, two sons) because we thought we needed some "core family" time together. If we CANCELLED that, now, I would of course want to go to my Dad's shindig for the week. And not sure I would want to tell W she was welcome, there, given the circumstances. (Though my Dad and stepmother and two stepbrothers do not even currently know W and I are having any problems... just that things are "hectic" and "stressful" right now for us as a family.) We could always go and just say she couldn't get off work or something. At any rate, really not looking forward to the family beach vacation under the circumstances.

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My one question would be, in my sitch how do I handle the currently ongoing MC.

Well, that is up to you. I just didn't want you jumping from the point of her not agreeing to transparency to filing for a divorce.

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Should I wait for her to mention them as they get closer and then be the same sort of casual/unemotional and say something like "really?" "Under the circumstances?" At any rate, assuming I should be cancelling them because no point in really trying to work on the MR while W is in the depths of an affair and not leveling with the MC.

I think you have to make a decision based on what you can live with. If you want to see where the MC takes you, then go with it. Don't drop the rope if it b/c you are itching to let your W know that you know about the contacts with OM. Let me explain what I mean. IMHO, the H needs to know in advance what he will do once the cat is out of the bag. There should be a narrow time period between the point she learns that you know.....and what you intend to do. If she sees you pursuing a relationship with her......while knowing she is sneaking around and contacting OM, it demishes the success rate in attracting her back.

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Also, and not saying I want to move toward divorce here, but once I have said "I know you're lying and contacting the OM" shouldn't I be at least insisting that she think about moving out, or is that the more extreme endgame if rope dropping doesn't produce results. (And I also remind you that my wife comes from an EXTREMELY neglectful situation, like 8-9 years, and has a lot of built up mistrust, etc. of me-- NO feelings of attraction near as I can tell). Not excusing her, just saying I am not so confident that she will start pursuing if I go back to ignoring her. It's not like I have been strongly pursuing her the past 4-5 months as is. Wouldn't some fear/concern about losing me AND the family and all that goes with it be some good medicine as well, or is that what the rope-dropping is supposed to convey? I wasn't saying I needed/wanted to move straight for divorce, though i am willing if it comes to that. Just seems like that possibility is one she should be contemplating, because i dont think she really is.

Again, when reading your post, it sounds as if you want to play tough guy one minute, but then counteract with all the reasons you shouldn't. I think you have to iron out that for yourself.

The MC assignments? You decide. Family vacation? Here's the thing. I don't think you can have it both ways. It appears, to me, that you want some of the tougher love advice mixed together with the MC's. Honestly, until we know more about the direction of the MC........I think mixing what I suggest with that of the MC, may not be the wisest choice. I've asked more than once about the assisnments and received no answer. Also, you've only had one coaching session. I would think now is the time to get it.

Not knowing your own plan or how you feel is the best path to take, will cause you to ask questions about all these other things, and feel that you need to be spoon fed. It keeps you in a state of confusion. It is your life and your decision. I'm not trying to press you to choose one over the other, but I do think you need to talk to your DB coach and then decide.

i think you vastly underestimate my commitment/toughness. It's not that I want it both ways or that I am vacillating, but rather that there are particular circumstances that I want to make sure I know how to navigate-- IOW that I have anticipated all evantualities/events and have "a plan". You will notice that I was fairly certain that i should both a) not be planning on continuing the MC and b) not go through with the family vacation if I, as I am planning to do, drop the rope. I just want to confirm my thinking is accurate. I have read and reread all the WW threads and know darn well that pretending to engage in "happy family" acitivities is not the way to a WW's heart. Just trying to figure out specifically how I will approach those events/eventualities so i don't botch them when the moment arrives.

And isn't it normal to have doubts that distancing/dropping-the-rope will draw to you a woman who has been driven FROM you by years of neglect? Not excusing her behavior AT ALL, just acknowledging the counterintuitiveness of it, which you yourself grant. I just feel particularly beleagueured because the length of my own wife's neglect was SO long. I would love to hear from someone out there who has come back from having a WW with such a lengthy period of resentment to build up. Don't get me wrong-- I think this is probalby the only way... playing nice and loving, tolerant, etc., has not turned the trick here.

BTW, the dropping the rope is already working. She has been following ME around the house, and I've only been at this for a day and a half. She's said a couple of times "What are you doing?" and "You're acting mysterious."

Hoosjim,

That curiousity from the WW always kicks in. Naturally they wonder why you stopped pursuing. Is the fact they went too far or perhaps did you find someone else? Nobody likes getting kicked to the curb. Keep doing what appears to be working.

What are the two assignments you and W were given to do this week?

Sandi, looking at my notes, we were supposed to 1) come up with a transparency plan (she actually said this), 2) practice complete honesty in our conversations in general 3) schedule st least three "working dates" to discuss the MR, identify specific problems and workbon ways to solve, 4) Find time to talk about and grieve our miscarriage from a few years back, which we had both "buried" and never really discussed and 5) there was also a hand caressing/touching/exploration/discussion exercise we had done in office she wanted us to do again which had highlighted some of the differences with how each f us was responding to touch by the other. Obviously, most of these not terribly appropriate if the affair, as appears evident, is still raging. Just not much point, and her response to the transparency discussion shows that.

Quick, and important question: I am NOT "hot to "confront her about OM" BUT, obviously, in this drop the rope scenario, as you nite, it is bound to eventually come up. I was slightly unclear on what the trigger is to restate my boundary-- obviously I would if she tries to engage in a discussion about the MR, and then I would only say "I know you've been lying" if she presses from there. However, what if she just asks, or, more likely, presses me on "what's wrong" or "are you mad at me" or the like? Is that time to restate the boundary too, or is that just a time for me to he evasive and say shortly "no, nothing wrong". IOW, is the only time I go down the boundary (and, by extension, I know you're lying) Road when she specifically wants to discuss the MR?

I also understand the caveats here and that once that cat is out of the bag I will not pursue her or accommodate her or her A in any way. I am also in that eventuality, prepared to suggest that we separate the living arrangements, unless you think that would be precipitous. (NOT saying file for D, here.)

Thanks!

Additional couple of things I forgot to add to previous response:

There were two other "tasks" we were given by MC. One, as I previously mentioned, was to find/make dedicated one on one social time (date nights, if you will) between the two of of, which, as I mentioned, we had also done. Two, our surveys that we had taken independently before our first MC session showed a high level of stress in both of us as well as identifying the most profound "life stressors". She had given us an exercise to do involving a matrix to prioritize the most important of those and also identify the most and least solvable of those identified as most important and then work together to come up with some solutions. We could do that as one of our "working dates". Again, though, all this seems pretty superfluous as long as the A rages on.

FWIW, my own personal take on what to say to W if she asks "are we still going to see MC on Friday" or something similar would be to say "under the current circumstances, i don't really see the point."

Anyway, interested in your additional take on all of this.

More color--

Talked to MC today, individual session. Gave her the full run-down of what I knew, how I knew it, etc., which she had not previously been fully privvy to. (I had just told her i knew the A was more serious than W was letting on, and that I had been doing some snooping to find out.) Today, basically gave her the whole history, effectively "outed" my W to her. Maybe a mistake, idunno, but wanted the feedback and thats what shes there for.

In sum, she agreed that my boundary needed to be enforced at some point, but specifically that my W "needs to know that I know" that she has broken NC and that the A is ongoing and that she lied to me. She (MC) was agnostic as to whether or not to reveal all the details I knew and how I knew them, seeing benefits and risks to both paths. (Full reveal = she can go deeper underground and thwart monitoring, BUT less wiggle room for her to argue and some women will not acknowledge or believe H knows until confronted with actual evidence). Most important thing, though, was that W knows I know, which, she granted, could appropriately come about through my rope-dropping and pulling back and W asking me what was "wrong".

Surprisingly, she also indicated that it would be okay, and maybe even preferable, for me to show some anger-- not violent over the top anger, but definitely some genuine offense at what she has done. Particularly interested in people's take here, as I tend to agree and always wondered about the DB insistence on "quiet tone of voice", etc., unless it was due to over-sensitive fears of spousal abuse arising from an angry scenario (and my MC did caution against allowing anger to creep in if either of us had anger management or violence issues, which we do not.) At any rate, she agrees that once W "knows that I know", i need to appear to be absolutely, 100% NOT okay with what's going on.

Also, one quick note to add in terms of reviewing all I know versus revealing that I know: the MC did say that just revealing THAT you know, can offer the additional advantage of giving the wife the opportunity to come clean a little bit on her own and demonstrate some remorse as opposed to just hitting her over the head with all of the accusations and facts

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I was slightly unclear on what the trigger is to restate my boundary-- obviously I would if she tries to engage in a discussion about the MR, and then I would only say "I know you've been lying" if she presses from there. However, what if she just asks, or, more likely, presses me on "what's wrong" or "are you mad at me" or the like? Is that time to restate the boundary too, or is that just a time for me to he evasive and say shortly "no, nothing wrong". IOW, is the only time I go down the boundary (and, by extension, I know you're lying) Road when she specifically wants to discuss the MR?

The time to have restated your boundary was when she balked at being transparent.� However, I am sure you will get another chance.� I think your MC is pretty much telling you that the game changes at this point.� She just didn't give you the "how to".�

Here's the thing to remember.� Don't try to prove to your W what she's doing.� She KNOWS what she's doing, okay?� This becomes a trap for the H. It's not your job to prove what you know and what she knows.� �There have been reports of men showing pictures, text messages, the whole nine yards.....and the WW would still deny it.� So don't waste your time or dignity arguing with her about what you know.� Do NOT give her the source of your intell. You may never use it again, but to tell her would be a mistake. Some men think they will get on the better side of his W if he tells, but no.......it only make her more angry. The WW turns this entire thing around and puts the H in the hot seat for "spying" on her........and it distracts from the affair. Just telling her you know, is enough. It's not your job to convince her.

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However, what if she just asks, or, more likely, presses me on "what's wrong" or "are you mad at me" or the like? Is that time to restate the boundary too, or is that just a time for me to he evasive and say shortly "no, nothing wrong". �

No, don't be evasive.�

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FWIW, my own personal take on what to say to W if she asks "are we still going to see MC on Friday" or something similar would be to say "under the current circumstances, i don't really see the point."

It sounds okay to me. Of course, that's a leading statement and she will probably come back with another statement or question, and that may be the time to say, "Look, we both know you have been lying about NC with the OM. Until you decide to do the right thing, I see no reason in continuing MC. I will not live in (repeat your boundary)". . That's when she'll probably try to find out what you know. Be careful and don't let your emotions take over and say too much.

I would not say anything about one of you moving out, unless she pushes it. You probably need to avoid words like "insist". You don't want to look like a wimp, but neither do you want to be an a$$. Be in control of yourself, and do not get into a shouting match or make any threats. We've read about H's having false charges brought against him. One guy just stood in the doorway, and his W told the police that he was threatening and she was afraid, etc.

I tell you all of that b/c it would be rare to have a positive outcome, right there on the spot. By that, I mean if she broke down and apologized and promised to never contact him again......that would be positive, IMHO. However, you may want more assurance than just her words, considering that she has been lying to you. Think about different ways it could go, and if you don't know what to say in response, you can always tell her you will need to think about it.

If it goes the way you hope, then later you could suggest using the MC assignments........and attend the session this week. Don't push the assignments, especially the touching stuff, if she doesn't want to engage.. Since the MC knows more now, she may approach your W differently or give different advice.

After the H has repeated his boundary, I don't think he should do it again. The next time calls for him to back it up. And, you may have to back it up this time. It depends on what she does.

Thanks, sandi.

I guess what I was also getting at in my previous post was how to respond to the basic "is something wrong/ why are you acting so different" question. Obviously not being evasive, is that my "invite" to say "look, I gave you a boundary, we both know you haven't respected that",or, perhaps "look, we need to talk..." (the latter because our kids are still at home usually when we are and our,house is,not large and I would want this talk to be confidential). I guess what I am asking is it okay to segue right into the boundary/no contact/ we both know" Convo straight out of her question "what's the matter", or should I be more roundabout?

BTW, playing it cool and dropping rope serms,to be having an effect. She has definitely been seeking ME out around the house, even to point of just sitting there near me watching a couple times while I read ordo paperwork, and also texting me and calling a LOT more.

Then again, she could also just be gearing up to do something egregious with OM, as it has been her pattern in past to be particularly chatty or text-y as she is heading off for a rendezvous. ... but this seems to be a lot more than she usually does in those circumstances.

Unreal almost how much she is texting me now, starting Sunday evening, a little less than 24 hours after I "dropped the rope." I am not responding to her texts, currently, unless they concern the kids or some item of domestic work/business that has to be attended to, and I am not being overly verbose when she calls me. But she keeps the texts coming. Alot of them very friendly, joking, if not QUITE "flirty". On calls, alot of silences on the line, like she's waiting for me to say something. Also watching me alot at the house. It's weird. Then last night she had a major major hair appointment where she got keratin treatments, etc. etc, and called me on the way back to say, "Wow, i really feel frisky now with my hair looking so great-- its never looked like this". I just let the comment pass.

And it also really hurts, and makes me feel kind of empty, to intentionally put up a barrier there, to intentionally not engage in the conversations and text exchanges. Because of the way I feel about her but also because she is just a whole lot of fun and we connect well intellectually. Dammit. Gotta stay strong.

I am assuming all of this will change when the discussion about boundaries and NC inevitably come up this week. MC session is scheduled for Friday, so one way or another that discussion will happen by then. Will be interesting to see. Probably very painful for both of us.

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I guess what I was also getting at in my previous post was how to respond to the basic "is something wrong/ why are you acting so different" question.

The same answer you would say if she asks about attending MC.

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Obviously not being evasive, is that my "invite" to say "look, I gave you a boundary,

But you did not give HER a boundary. Unless I misunderstand what you mean. Maybe you mean you gave her your boundary, IDK. You did not give her an ultimatum, did you? B/c there is a difference in a boundary and an ultimatum. I tried to go back through your threads to find exactly what you did say.....when you woke her up that night. It was never clear to me. I remember you said no contact with OM, but I was not clear about how you stated to her what you could not live with. It is your boundary. It is to protect yourself by not accepting certain treatment upon you physically, mentally, emotionally, etc. It is your personal boundaries, integrity, values, spiritual/moral beliefs, that should direct your relationships. So, what exactly is your boundary, Hoosjim? Maybe you never told her and if not, this might be the time to say something like, "I cannot live in a M of three"......or however you want to say it. But it's about YOU and what YOU can't live with. She is free to do whatever the heck she wants to do. She has a choice to honor your boundary, or ignore it. If she doesn't clearly know your boundary, how can you expect much?

I am a little sensitive to some of the phrases/words you choose to use when describing something that's related to the board's advice, b/c it hints to me you are not really grasping the full message of what we are trying to communicate. (And I am not mad when I say this. I am just frustrated b/c you want to be spoon fed or take a poll of the various sources of advice, instead of learning what you need to learn). You may not appreciate when I say you aren't grounded enough, but this quote above is an example of what I mean. By not being grounded, I don't mean you are flippant or wishy washy. I mean you are not "getting" the whys behind the actions. You don't have a plan b/c you don't "get it". You want to know every possible conversation in the universe and how to respond......but you aren't processing properly. You just want some action to do that gets you immediate results......but when you don't understand the purpose behind the actions, you will scr@w up. We tried to explain boundaries and how they work. You still don't get it. Did you even read the homework on boundaries? Your plan should be tied to your boundaries.

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I guess what I am asking is it okay to segue right into the boundary/no contact/ we both know" Convo straight out of her question "what's the matter", or should I be more roundabout?

I have doubts she is clear about you stating a boundary, but she knows perfectly well you don't want her contacting OM. If she gives you an opening by asking about the MC session or "what's the matter", then I would ask her to step into the bedroom where you can have a private conversation with her. Once you are in the bedroom, your goal is to let her know you are aware she has been deceiving (or lying, cheating, whatever) and that she has continued to contact the OM. If she asks what you know, then it's up to you what to say but don't tell her how you know. Don't give away too many details. If she asks about seeing the MC this week....then you could say something like, "Do you see any point attending, if there is no commitment to work on the MR?" The final thing you should state is your boundary. "I will not ____________". "I am willing to make changes to improve our MR, but I will not __________". (You've clearly stated your boundary two times here). "If this continues, then I will ____________".

I would not get off into how she should leave the home or what to tell the kids, or her lack of feelings, etc. You want to keep it limited to telling her you know, and you won't continue to live with it and if it doesn't stop, then you will ________. Then end the conversation by saying, "I think we need to end the conversation here for now, and you can think about the MC and whether or not you are ready to commit to saving the M. Otherwise, I am not going to continue going down the path".

As I've said previously, I am not the greatest at wording conversations.

As I've been reading, I've really thought hoosjim just doesn't get it. I don't say that in a mean way - I really don't. I now see that sandi has said it - you're just not getting it. In some circles, certainly medicine, this is called critical thinking skills. Some new nurses or paramedics want to see a patient with chest pain and give them oxygen, aspirin and nitroglycerin. Well it's not always that simple. You can't just always see A and do B. As not all chest pain patients are treated with these medications - a 15 year old hit in the chest with a baseball for example.

It's the same here. You seem to want to learn these skills by if she says A I should do B. Again, it's not that simple. Just as the nurse needs to understand the underlying principles so do you with DBing. The only way to do this is by studying, learning, doing the homework. Then you have to put it into practice.

It can be hard to do and for some, they decide medicine is not for them. Not sure that option applies as in saying DBing is not for you. So all you can do then is try to learn it - I mean really learn it. Not short cut by asking what should you do or say if she does or says A, but by learning how to figure that out on your own. You then do some trial and error. But you first have to dig deep, read the books and do the homework sandi and others are suggesting. There is no way we can give you an answer for every potential situation. You've got to be able to critically think through the options based on LEARNING THE DB PRINCIPLES.

And again, I say this not at all to be mean - just to help.

Sandi, I really apologize. I am just very poor at wording things sometimes.

I fully understand that the boundary is mine and for my protection. I did not mean that "i gave HER a boundary" (though, yes, that is what I typed), what I meant was that I gave/explained to her MY boundary, which was what i did. I was VERY clear with her...although in fact we had to have two conversations about it within less than a week because she said she didn't get it (or perhaps pretended she didn't get it and i indulged her) thinking it was about me wanting a thumbs up or thumbs down on us and wanting her to do certain things or not go certain places. I think she was waffling, but I was VERY clear: "I will not live in an open marriage; I will not share you with another man. I cannot control YOU, but I can control what I allow in my "circle"" (a concept from one of the sermons at our church at one point.) And that's the basis from which I will work going forward. When we ultimately have this next conversation: "I told you I had a boundary, which I stated very clearly, about what I would and would not live with." (Followed by, depending on how she responds: "We both know you have been lying about no contact with OM. Under the current circumstances, I see no point in continuing to work on the MR with the MC, or for us to pretend like we are working on the MR at all. I am not going to share you and I am not going to try to "fix" or work on our relationship while you are carrying on a relationship with another man." Further, I am somewhat inclined to remind her "I can't control what you do in your circle, only in mine. Ive told you what I wont allow in my circle. I put my trust in you, (twice, now, at marriage and when you promised no contact) and you promised to respect that boundary, and then you broke that promise. Not sure how I can trust you now." If she for some reason says she is sorry and/or it's over with OM and/or she wants to try again: "If you want back into "my" circle and to be close to me or work on the MR WITH me, I think YOU need to show ME what you can do so that I can trust you and allow you to be that close to me. If YOU want to do this and if you can cut contact and commit 100% working on the MR, then I will give 100% of what I have to work on it as well, but... I cannot make you do anything... what can YOU do, what WILL you do to demonstrate that commitment to me?" And I can think of a few things (immediately cough up the "cheater phone", have an open convo with me about what is going on with the OM, agree to cut contact with the bff, etc.) but it seems to me at that point I should not be imposing "limits" or "rules" on her. The impetus should be on her to prove herself. I am just protecting my boundary.

Idunno, I think I DO get it, i just think my words I type are sometimes inartful.

But i TOTALLY GET boundaries and have read the materials. Multiple times.

Yes, i DO frequently ask for thoughts on particular scenarios but that is more from being over-analytical and over-meticulous (both of which I am often guilty) than not being grounded in the basics.

Oh, speaking of bff. Here is another tactical question. W wants to have her stay overnight at our house as a favor as she is going through town. This is another "W doesn't know that I know" issue, but bff has clearly been enabling the A, and I almost feel like that if this comes to a head, at some point, maybe not during this initial convo, but at some point, maybe next time around, I have to say "i know your bff has been helping you carry on the A... I don't want her staying under my roof. I have a choice as to who I allow access to my house and to get "close" to me and I don't want her staying her under the circumstances." My inclination would be that right now this would be a bridge too far, yes?

Thanks, Don. I think i actually get it more than I am conveying. I think where i fall down is 1) inartful wording-- I am not that great a writer and 2) a tendency towards being over-analytical (and sometimes spinning scenarios). I have read and studied the materials and books and continue to do so.

It is, of course, good advice for DB, I would assume, as for any endeavor, to be conversant enough in it to make decisions on the fly and in any eventuality. Perhaps I have been guilty of trying to short-circuit the process by seeking input on multiple eventualities in every circumstance. OTOH, maybe that's how I am learning this stuff. It really does help.

And I dont know where I ever gave the impression that I want a "one shot quick fix". Well, okay, I DO, but who DOESN'T? i DO understand, though, that such a thing does NOT exist in this case. I know very well that I have TONS of work ahead of me, first to navigate through the stormy waters created by my W's A while protecting and improving my own self, and THEN trying to work to piece my own marriage back together, if we even get to that point. That is a long road, for each of those things, and I am going to have to go through both if I am to get to where I want to be with my W. I totally get that. Sorry to everyone if I have been a pain. I really do appreciate all the help and insights.

Further, I am somewhat inclined to remind her "I can't control what you do in your circle, only in mine. Ive told you what I wont allow in my circle. I put my trust in you, (twice, now, at marriage and when you promised no contact) and you promised to respect that boundary, and then you broke that promise. Did she really make a verbal promise? I thought she said something more along with "nothing had changed"). Not sure how I can trust you now." If she for some reason says she is sorry and/or it's over with OM and/or she wants to try again: "If you want back into "my" circle and to be close to me or to work on the MR WITH me, I think YOU need to show ME what you can do so that I can trust you and allow you to be that close to me. If YOU want to do this and if you can cut contact and commit 100% working on the MR, then I will give 100% of what I have to work on it as well, but... I cannot make you do anything... (You don't have to work in everything that was said to you on the board). what can YOU do, what WILL you do to demonstrate that commitment to me?" And I can think of a few things (immediately cough up the "cheater phone", have an open convo with me about what is going on with the OM, agree to cut contact with the bff, etc.) (I doubt she is going to agree to no contact with OM and her BFF. And as for having an "open" conversation about what's going on with OM......you do not need to do that b/c it implies that you really "don't know" and it will lead to too much R talk, which will tear down what you are trying to accomplish in this time slot). but it seems to me at that point I should not be imposing "limits" or "rules" on her. The impetus should be on her to prove herself. I am just protecting my boundary. (IDK, but that sounds a little contradicting. You have already said you think she needs to show you that you can trust her again. So not sure what you mean by imposing limits or rules on her. True, you cannot force her to do what you want, but neither do you have to continue to tell her. If she honors your boundary, it will automatically impose limits. No, I would not use the word "rules" anywhere in your conversation). This conversation needs to be shorter, b/c you are trying to use too many words.

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dunno, I think I DO get it, i just think my words I type are sometimes inartful.

But i TOTALLY GET boundaries and have read the materials. Multiple times.

Yes, i DO frequently ask for thoughts on particular scenarios but that is more from being over-analytical and over-meticulous (both of which I am often guilty) than not being grounded in the basics.

Okay.

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Oh, speaking of bff. Here is another tactical question. W wants to have her stay overnight at our house as a favor as she is going through town. This is another "W doesn't know that I know" issue, but bff has clearly been enabling the A, and I almost feel like that if this comes to a head, at some point, maybe not during this initial convo, but at some point, maybe next time around, I have to say "i know your bff has been helping you carry on the A... I don't want her staying under my roof. I have a choice as to who I allow access to my house and to get "close" to me and I don't want her staying her under the circumstances." My inclination would be that right now this would be a bridge too far, yes?

Well, she has a choice who stays under her roof, too. So be very cautious about going into overdrive with your rights and/or boundaries. I agree that the BFF is an enabler, and at some point you may have to discuss it with your W. I have noticed that you tend to get ahead of where you are currently going. That's why I got confused at the beginning of your initial thread. In the long run, it seems it would keep things a bit clearer to not bite off too big of a chunk at one time. I realize you want to cover these issues, but I think you need to be cautious about including too much in one discussion.

Thanks, Sandi. Sorry to be such a pain. I think my most important takeaways from this second thread is to have more confidence in what I know and what I know is good for ME and my boundaries, as well as what I have learned from the DB principles. In MOST cases I know what the right answer is to the questions I ask, I just need to 1) be more confident in that and, especially 2) Do NOT get ahead of myself, do not get too wordy, and do NOT spin scenarios. Work with what is in front of me.

Continuing with rope-dropping, anticipating a conversation about my boundary and the no-contact issue imminently, and moving on to thread three. Say a prayer for me all-- if anyone can help keep me grounded and get me through this, it's the man upstairs!

At 100 posts, so here is my next (third) thread:

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2746674&#Post2746674