Okay
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2738458#Post2738458just trying to link my thread, so I can share & journal "out loud" here and b/c a lot of our experiences are universal,
while also intensely personal, too. Interesting juxtaposition.
Random thought about what life throws at us...I mean, the sudden sickness of 6 months ago really took a toll on me. Even so, the divorce
I filed for took me by surprise. Why?
Why couldn't I wrap my brain around it??
I think it was due in part to the length of our marriage, and because I thought we were past this obsession, and past his selfishness which I can honestly say, is so extreme as to be unbelievable,
and b/c I felt "owed" by h,
and b/c I had hid my fears and so I did not see things I could have seen if I had dug deeper.
ALL ^^ of this was a lot, and my mom had died and our last went off to college
ETC ETC
losing a parent(s) is actually a "natural" event and so is our children leaving the home. Those were triggering events for ME, not h.
So I refuse to look at those events as things that changed him back...besides, he barely processed his own mothers' death as h does not look at ugly things that are painful to him, for long. In some ways he's the hardest worker I know and in some ways, the laziest - emotionally anyhow.
Anyhow, here's todays analogy.Our first son was born when I was in law school, 8 weeks before h began med school.
Obviously he was "premature" by like 5 years.
When I first took the pregnancy test I did it kind of on a whim b/c we were going to a big party. I knew I'd drink some, and I noticed I had not had my cycle (we had been m for 5 years).
it came back positive and I was alone, and I literally prayed on my knees, before repeating the test (they come with 2). It came back positive too. Within 5 minutes, I went from being terrified and sort of dreading it,
to being nervously THRILLED...
I am not sure when our children would have come if we had "planned' them out b/c there was never ever going to be an easy or "convenient" time. Truly, it might not have happened at all, and we for sure would not have 3.
So God invaded my life and I've never been the same. Motherhood is by far the hardest, best, most draining, most rewarding terrifying satisfying experience of my life
and my children will always be my greatest achievement.
So maybe I need to embrace this "invasion" of single hood the same way.
Thoughts?
H was "off" with me for the past X amount of time (My estimates of when he was pulling away, vary, partly b/c of my recall and his inconsistencies and maybe b/c of his own uncertainty and my own blindness and trust??)
but for sure he was not good to me for several months in 2016, leading up to me filing.
he practically dared me to file, though he seemed or acted surprised when I did.
REGARDLESS of what h thought or planned blah blah blah
there were things I wanted to do as we approached retirement and I kept clinging to our original plans --all the things I really wanted to do,
presumably with h...
who knows what he really planned on doing, or with whom? H loves hanging with his heroes and bff. His bff is a good man, married happily for 36 years (and btw, he's happy partly b/c he wants to be happy. He tries to be happy and his w does too).
I think my task for now is to redirect painful thoughts and plan on what I can do that I wanted to do,
without h. And to open my heart to someone else, in time...
and never hinder nor enable, h's r's with our children. I'm getting better at that.
25YearsMLC:
I just wanted to drop by and say how moved I am by your story. I'm truly impressed by the insights and maturity your posts have.
I wish I could be of more support to you - you seem to be doing great on your own. FYI - I am amazed on how you have been able to zero in on the thoughts/feelings/etc of some of the WAW/WW in th other's posts. I wish you were around when I got to the site (too late I'm afraid), I would have loved your insights on my W.
I'll keep reading your posts and look forward to interacting with you more.
When shift happens it is quick. In an instant. Real time change works it's magic.
I call these moments spell break, once you know you can never unknow.
The whole of your life changes in an instant. A moment, no hesitation, your higher power knows to shift.
I always say, you can love another but at times you can love yourself more.
The question of happiness, it isn't that the wayward is happy or happier with another, they just feel they are. Just sayin'
V
Thanks guys,
I'm really working on this.
Today my L called and said H has actually "officially" quit his job and wants his support lowered by 75%. (mind you, it's temporary).
I admit I'm surprised. And yet, not. The arguments he puts forth are things like "25 can just move to another state where she was licensed to practice law 16 years ago, and pick up there in private practice"
and even though I THINK the law is on my side, I'm both concerned (afraid, I admit)
and baffled/angered by h's approach. As if he has contempt for me. Which I do resent. He requested a vocational evaluation for me, which is annoying as heck.
But it's 3-4 hours from our kids and I would have paid for a visit to see them, and he'd have saved money just by asking me, OR asking his L...but he was told and per MY L, he didn't care.
how odd. 35 years & 3 kids
Just venting.
When shift happens it is quick. In an instant. Real time change works it's magic.
I call these moments spell break, once you know you can never unknow.
I hear this^^^.
The whole of your life changes in an instant. A moment, no hesitation, your higher power knows to shift.
I always say, you can love another but at times you can love yourself more.
The question of happiness, it isn't that the wayward is happy or happier with another, they just feel they are. Just sayin'
V
I'm struggling, but mostly moving forward. It's so NOT linear my friend...
Thanks guys,
I'm really working on this.
Today my L called and said H has actually "officially" quit his job and wants his support lowered by 75%. (mind you, it's temporary).
I admit I'm surprised. And yet, not. The arguments he puts forth are things like "25 can just move to another state where she was licensed to practice law 16 years ago, and pick up there in private practice"
and even though I THINK the law is on my side, I'm both concerned (afraid, I admit)
and baffled/angered by h's approach. As if he has contempt for me. Which I do resent. He requested a vocational evaluation for me, which is annoying as heck.
But it's 3-4 hours from our kids and I would have paid for a visit to see them, and he'd have saved money just by asking me, OR asking his L...but he was told and per MY L, he didn't care.
how odd. 35 years & 3 kids
Just venting.
So questions...
when my children ask me why I cannot visit them OR why it's such a hassle
I say "it's a legal matter" right?
I don't say "b/c your father specifically wanted to punish me"?
Yeah, yeah, I know the answer to this^^^
My L said "your h is unusual in that he's overtly an a$$hole. He knew you wanted to see them...but he didn't want to pay for a 'week long VACATION'..."
who the heck was asking for that? (To be clear, if I had known, -f if he had simply texted me - I would have paid the difference and saved him and me money!!)
Of course many WAS's or MLCers ( or crappy spouses or whatever label we choose, b/c honestly I don't know what label fits h anymore. )
Since I filed, some would say I'm the WAS, and others would argue about MLC's, but I have no time for that anymore. I did what I had to do under the circumstances...ANYWAY---
Why would H assume something I never asked for ( a week long vacation?? It's just a crazy thing to say & I'd bet he tells people that...)
and then deny it?? Seems he acts as if I've asked for or expected much more than was real, which still, even now, makes me nutty?
Because it's typical for MY h to assume that a "#6 request" (on the scale of 1 - 10) would actually mean or imply, a #10, so his reaction is a #10 reaction
even though all I suggested was a moderate "#6." Sounds wacky but I don't know how else to explain it simply. If I asked for "a little over $155 for a class, he would say it was 'close to $200' and he'd mean it... As if he heard what he feared, not what was said. This was a huge problem for us, or at least the underlying problem causing it, was.
Anyone know what I mean?
You say something carefully. You mean what you say and you say what you mean. You are not secretly implying more, and you do not actually or necessarily want more
but the reaction you get is as if you were in fact demanding much more than you were
and then you feel as if you might have missed something in your original request.
Like maybe you did not word it right or maybe you said it with a lousy tone, or maybe you even did mean something that you are not even aware of (or only a part of you was)
and now you are responding to THAT, the reaction of his, instead of what you actually said or meant.
Christ, I cannot believe it. It's gas lighting in court - the most expensive form.
Ugh
And so when our son asks, which he often does, I say nothing, right?
I can say "it's part of the legal quagmire and that's all you need to know"...or what?
I hate enabling h to do more crap and pretend not to, but I hate inflicting more pain on our children more. Okay there is my answer.
Sorry for the rambling and journaling out loud. I swear it helps.
Again, UGH!!
25YearsMLC:
I just wanted to drop by and say how moved I am by your story. I'm truly impressed by the insights and maturity your posts have.
I wish I could be of more support to you - you seem to be doing great on your own. FYI - I am amazed on how you have been able to zero in on the thoughts/feelings/etc of some of the WAW/WW in th other's posts. I wish you were around when I got to the site (too late I'm afraid), I would have loved your insights on my W.
I'll keep reading your posts and look forward to interacting with you more.
thank you big, it means a lot.
Truly
If my mother said...
...and that's all you need to know"...
...it would piss me off. Even if it wasn't this subject matter and was none of my business. The nature of asking a question generally implies that the asker feels -- right or wrong -- they have a right to know, otherwise they wouldn't have asked in the first place (I know, I'm making a sweeping statement). I don't have a better answer for you, but some more neutral language may be better for the time being.
Is it possible H has had a small stroke or multiple silent-strokes? My F had a lot of micro/silent-strokes that went undetected for a long time. I'm actually not sure how long, to be honest. But his behavior changed and even though he was generally the same person, he did a lot of weird stuff. He had a small electronics company that was on the verge of closing some really big deals. I think some of them even closed and money had come in. Rather than...you know...work on the business, he decided he was going to buy some large short wave radio antennas in French Guiana and partner with a religious radio station and start some sort of short wave radio network. This had nothing to do with his business. I only talked to my F once about religion and he said he figured Jesus was a real guy who did a lot of great stuff but was probably not God in the flesh. I say this not to start a religious debate, but just to point out how completely strange and bizarre his activity was.
Anyways, just a stab in the dark based on your writings about H. As for being the WAS, don't even go there! Besides, if you are...then it doesn't sound like he's DBing very well!
As for being the WAS, don't even go there! Besides, if you are...then it doesn't sound like he's DBing very well!
First of all it is not unusual for the LBS to become the WAS - in fact this is a rather normal thing to happen.
In 25's case it just took a longer time to happen.
I would not worry about the label - IMHO - no big deal.
I struggled with the same idea after my divorce but you can work through it.
DETACH and - LET GO
25 I am not sure why you are trying to make sense of something an MLCer says, you know that you can not believe any of it and if his lips are moving that he is lying.
You need to treat the divorce like a business transaction and get the best deal you possibly can.
If he quits his job then get a deal that means if he starts making more money then you have a claim to his future wages.
As it is you should get half of his retirement, social security will not be an issue as that is a matter of law, and between you and the agency.
"Time will tell".. One of your question just got answered.
Is he as happy as he is showing the world? Hummmm?? Obviously NOT!
IMO, he is embarking in the " who is the good guy and who is the bad one." He now wants to tarnish (reality in his mind: punish)you and your reputation. He is taking on the victim role and by doing so, justifying his Affair and misery.
Put all of this sh*t aside. Your divorce is for you and your life. It is part of GALing. It is definitely a business deal and whatever he does in his fog will bite him in the a** in his future.
How old are your children? Mine were 6-9-11-13, now 14-17 soon- 18-21 eventho they could not understand what was going on, they saw his game. they saw his wackiness. they are very protective of me now. They talk back and defend me if he trys to come after me. They vocalise to him what he has put us true. Is he a victim of his own doing? Are we the victim of his wayward life? None of it matters.. He has his life and I have mine. Our children are on their way to create their own. They are taking lessons learn from this crap and hopefully do not repeat their childhood onto their own children..
Your L knows what your next options are. He is working for you and will present you with different scenarios. The decision is yours. Do not let STBX get under your skin. This is not about him, it is about your future.
Big Hug 25!!!!
xox
Ok 25, I know you and Vanilla and some others don't like labels, but this guy is screaming from the high hilltops that he is NPD. He quit his dream job to screw you over in your divorce? He wants you to be evaluated? He is telling you what you need to do and where you need to move? This is textbook stuff. This is precisely why I have not filed for D. There is no wrath like the wrath of a narcissist pissed that someone is daring to move on from them. If I'm right and he is a befuddled as you say, this relationship will not last long (mine kept an on/off for 3 years when hidden, in the light of day it lasted less than 2 months).
As a lawyer you know that his un/under employment is a croc that you can challenge it. He is giving you lots of reasons to let go. You have the support of your kids, your intelligence, your compassion, and your drive. You will rise above this and flourish.
NOTE: i read: " he owned my life "..
GET YOUR LIFE BACK... This is the love
You deserve.. it is your self- love!!!!
If my mother said...
...and that's all you need to know"...
...it would piss me off. Even if it wasn't this subject matter and was none of my business. The nature of asking a question generally implies that the asker feels -- right or wrong -- they have a right to know, otherwise they wouldn't have asked in the first place (I know, I'm making a sweeping statement). I don't have a better answer for you, but some more neutral language may be better for the time being.
Is it possible H has had a
small stroke or multiple silent-strokes? My F had a lot of micro/silent-strokes that went undetected for a long time. I'm actually not sure how long, to be honest. But his behavior changed and even though he was generally the same person, he did a lot of weird stuff. He had a small electronics company that was on the verge of closing some really big deals. I think some of them even closed and money had come in. Rather than...you know...work on the business, he decided he was going to buy some large short wave radio antennas in French Guiana and partner with a religious radio station and start some sort of short wave radio network. This had nothing to do with his business. I only talked to my F once about religion and he said he figured Jesus was a real guy who did a lot of great stuff but was probably not God in the flesh. I say this not to start a religious debate, but just to point out how
completely strange and bizarre his activity was.Anyways, just a stab in the dark based on your writings about H. As for being the WAS, don't even go there! Besides, if you are...then it doesn't sound like he's DBing very well!
Oh, to be clear, I DO think there's something wrong with h. His own L has told mine, the very same thing. That h is "so disorganized in thought, and won't focus except to complain about 25..."
Either he always had symptoms of whatever this ^^ is, and it's worsened or it's a new weird mental problem. H's mom was mentally ill and so was her mom and grandmother. (I swear I worried when I had a daughter, in case, you know?)
But h has always functioned well at work and been eccentric by some standards,
so maybe it's not the case. Of course he has supposedly officially quit his job in paradise Alaska. I simply don't know what his functioning is like now. His "MLC" 10 years ago was out of character in some respects. He stopped paying the bills on time and didn't tell me, and some bills he just dumped on me AGAIN without telling me. That was new behavior after 25 years of paying on time or early and it was part of why I thought MLC term might fit...so maybe every ten years he'll be an a$$.
You know, this is presently about survival for me. I have no control over h.
I did read about NPD and if I never looked at our past, during which I think he was a good h and father, I'd say there are parts of this that are very narcissistic.
If I only looked at his behavior the past decade - it has a lot of strange forms of manipulation and control, and subtle criticisms. And the fb post about how happy he is NOW strikes me as asinine, and or narcissistic. So over the top that I actually only had a gut punch for a few days. Then I stepped back and said "hey 25, this is weird as $hit. It's not about you and it's not about how 'happy' h is. It's over compensating or flaunting to hurt or whatever, but those behaviors are not a reflection on you."
And after awhile, those^^ words (mostly) sank in.
180---I hear you about the way to respond to the kids and not saying "that's all you need to know".
It's not the form of my answer I guess, so much as keeping them shut out. But it's not easy in terms of when they ask questions and the answer depends to an extent on what their dad does. My middle child is so pained by this that she does not speak of h at all, nor does she speak of the D, at all. she frequently calls to check on me and ask how I am and what I'm up to and is a little cheerleader for me 
but she does not want to be in the middle of this. Our son asks direct questions and is very protective. Our youngest d is furious at h. She won't call him "dad" anymore, but calls him by his name...that is some anger.
When I look at h's history vis a vis d19, she has every right to be hurt and angry. But that's not my responsibility. They have clearly asked me not to defend him, to them. So I won't.
My guess is that he's blasted me to them, or whined or whatever & they don't want me to feel inappropriate loyalty. Maybe that's why they don't want me to defend him
OR maybe they see his behavior more clearly than I have in the past...
ugh! 
Ok 25, I know you and Vanilla and some others don't like labels, but this guy is screaming from the high hilltops that he is NPD.
He quit his dream job to screw you over in your divorce? He wants you to be evaluated? He is telling you what you need to do and where you need to move? This is textbook stuff.
Good (gross) points. H also hired L's up in Alaska which I assume means he wants the venue up there. Which would not be financially good for me (though A is grounds for divorce there) but which is unlikely to prevail. It's stupid, actually. Expensive. At the start of this D process h asked me if he needed a L...
God, I wish I'd said something selfish and unethical like "oh, no you don't need another L. Let's just use mine..." Instead I said we should both have representation but that I would hope he'd spend OUR money on this lawyer (me) b/c I had his children. And unless he wants to make new "25's H" law, there is a formula...
I guess he does want to make new "25's H" law. I think h expected me to write up a 2 page divorce decree and split what H felt was fair, and go our separate ways painlessly...but since I filed in California, that's state's laws apply (as we lived there 16 years)
which h disliked, evidently.
This is precisely why I have not filed for D. There is no wrath like the wrath of a narcissist pissed that someone is daring to move on from them. If I'm right and he is a befuddled as you say, this relationship will not last long (mine kept an on/off for 3 years when hidden, in the light of day it lasted less than 2 months).
Own,
you can be right about his underlying mental issues, but I think he's cornered himself into marrying OW. How can he publicly declare news about OW (and imply that THIS IS THE ONE!!) (after a 35 year marriage and 3 kids) unless he marries her?
Wouldn't that make him "wrong"???
Of course I don't know what her expectations are but if they are that she's marrying a rich MD, who is now unemployed, well, like I said, I don't know her expectations
Oh I do know that h will inherit millions and she's seen the property that he'll get half of. SO maybe that's their plan.
I have no control over that.
I also think the anger h feels at me is stunning and weird and nutty and unfair and rich with irony.
This is the man who was AWOL when I was hospitalized. Just inexcusable and appalling. He obviously doesn't see it that way (or doesn't look at it at all)
but I do not expect any approach from him. Sure, the ego wants him to at least probe so I can hear that all is not well in paradise.
But other times I just pretend he's passed away (not in a punitive way) so that he's simply not a factor in my life. IT's weird and surreal, b/c of the length of the m.
H must be blaming me for every single problem in HIS life. So, he'll show me!
As a lawyer you know that his un/under employment is a croc that you can challenge it.
It is being challenged this Monday morning (prayers welcome). H now claims he "just wants to retire", and h is 60. There is case law that would help him IF his retirement were done in good faith.
But his whole reason for going there, other than its paradise, was to make a gazillion dollars and he showed me the contract he was signing to work up there. The plan was to become a partner and then sell it in a "few years" and make millions.
So, that's not a "retirement" plan. That is an income ability and an investment I equipped him to make, while moving 9 times in 17 years for his career...not mine.
But I don't know what his legal strategy is. I can only guess and it makes my head hurt.
Hence - 
He is giving you lots of reasons to let go. You have the support of your kids, your intelligence, your compassion, and your drive. You will rise above this and flourish.
I agree.
I THINK once the finances are "worked out fairly" and I can actually know what my budget is, I'll totally let go, whatever that looks like.
H has been and would continue to be a lousy h for me, going forward.
If he is ill AND IF he gets help, and wants back in and is doing all the work needed for me to trust him again
Oh wow, I'm laughing & SMH as I write this^^ all out now. Um, it's Not gonna happen.
I just want this legal financial quagmire over, but with a good result. A fair result. (And if ALL of those recon conditions occurred, trust me, I'd be back on these boards with a whole new thread, and asking for some 2 x 4's).
I don't think I'll cave in either.
I mean, it's one thing to lose in court, which could happen & would be terrible for me. And which would force me onto a new path.
It's another thing to give up, which I won't do. I deserve better.
I so appreciate the feedback.
OR maybe they see his behavior more clearly than I have in the past...[/color]
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
That sums it all up. They can see the contrast between their parents and what's going on between them without you having to say much. Complaining about their father is one thing. Being straight up with them and telling them facts is something else. If you pursue the latter, to whatever extent you feel comfortable, the kids can make their own conclusions -- clearly they already have. I understand you don't want them to turn against one parent or another, but it's not like this stuff won't come out eventually. So, tell them what you must, spare them what you can, and let the chips fall where they may.
I was looking through some of my Chinese literature and came across two different quotes by Te-Ch'ing (1546-1623) that made me think of you...and, honestly, all of us.
"When opponents are evenly matched and neither is superior, the winner is hard to determine. But whichever one is remorseful and compasionate will win. For the Way of Heaven is to love life and to help those who are compassionate to overcome their enemies."
"The ancients said that the word understanding
was the door to all mysteries as well as the door to all misfortune. If you realize that you don't understand, you eliminate false understanding. This is the door to all mysteries. If you cling to understanding while trying to discover what you don't understand, you increase the obstacles to understanding. This is the door to all misfortune."
This second quote is his commentary on what Lao-Tzu wrote a millennia before him:
"To understand yet not understand
is transcendence
not to understand yet understand
is affliction
the reason sages aren't afflicted is because they treat affliction as affliction
hence they aren't afflicted"Haha, okay I'll stop now. I'm probably waaaay overthinking this.
25,
Reading your last few posts, a swirl of memories has come flooding back to me from my first marriage and horrible, awful divorce. I hesitate to post anything back to you that smacks of my having any answers, because you are so great with words and your advice to so many hurting people on here is so straight on point, that I am a little intimidated to try to reach out to you. But I can't keep silent right now. So here's my $.2.
My EX-H (who I was married to for 22 years, and have been divorced from for more than 15 years), is and was a raging, textbook narcissist. Your H doesn't sound like a straight up, always been one, but does show many of the characteristics. When we went through our divorce, our children were 17 and 20. Son had moved out to college, daughter still at home in HS. They had their own struggles with H through the years-son was more like me, non-confrontative, people-pleaser, just get through the day and keep H from being upset, so he dealt with his emotions and bottled up anger through drug abuse, and has now been to rehab twice. I'm not blaming H for it, but dulling the pain was certainly something we all became experts in. My daughter was much more like her dad, and would welcome a heated debate with him, but could never hone the skills to beat him at his own game, so she dealt with her frustration by bulimia. When she confided in me, I immediately took her straight to a counselor, who over the years, I think, saved us all. In one of the first counseling meetings with H, D and me, H said, and I quote, "YOU WILL NOT THROW UP IN MY HOUSE. I WILL LOCK EVERY BATHROOM DOOR AND SHOW YOU WHO CONTROLS WHETHER YOU THROW UP OR NOT." Yes, he truly saw himself in a position to control bathroom privileges by locks, I guess forgetting that throwing up does not require a toilet. D, counselor and me just stared at him incredulously. He never got it. So, his plan "kind of" worked. She did eventually quit throwing up. She also quit eating. When she was down to 75 lbs. and near hospitalization, I began to re-think the wisdom in staying with this man who I did not even recognize anymore. Through 2 more years of counseling, sometimes 3 times a week, as she became stronger and wiser, so did I. As she turned a corner in therapy, so did I, right along with her. When she was finally stable enough and strong enough, I attempted to leave him. God forbid, no one had ever stood up to him. He fought me with everything he had, every dollar, every threat, everything. Not because he loved me, but because he would not give up control. Police were involved and even had to arrest him twice. Tires were cut, HVAC units in my rental were destroyed, a private inves was hired to follow me, H followed me, sat outside my apt at night, tried to set me up for a DUI-it goes on and on. And it didn't stop when divorce was final either. To this day, I have to block him on every available source- social media, phone, email, everything- and we have both been married to other people for over TEN YEARS NOW. The whole reason I tell you all this sordid tale (besides the fact that once I started I couldn't stop so evidently I needed to vent ONE MORE TIME) is the way my children have reacted to the saga over the years. They are now 31 and 34, and both doing wonderfully, both in long term relationships, both working in professional jobs, and as far as I can tell, dealing with their own demons/addictions keeping them in check. I shielded them from the things I could, and although they witnessed way too much, I realize now in conversations the 3 of us have, there are many, many things they were never aware of, and for that I am thankful. They both have come to a place where they tolerate a relationship with their dad, but can only stand it in very small doses, maybe an hour at a time, before he blows and tries to draw them into something, oftentimes still bringing up me. He will always be angry that I was able to leave him. I believe he would kill me if given the chance, even now. They stop him in his tracks, and don't allow the conversations to continue, and they freely tell me all this. The 3 of us have a bond that will never be broken, because in many ways, we withstood the storm together and we all survived. It took years for them to, over time, ask me about specifics of things that he had told them (lies, absurd lies) about facts that could have easily been proven or not, and I've been able to clear up some of those things, but honestly, after they began to see the pattern of his craziness, it started to matter less and less to them. The truth of people's inside light WILL come out, over time, without any help from us. Your children sound very healthy, and grounded, and they have a wise, steady, calm role model in you. They will see all they need and make their own evaluations of both you and their dad, especially as they grow and mature. As far as what to tell them, I'd say as little as is necessary, and maybe just be honest and say exactly why- he will always be your dad, and the relationship you have with him is exactly that- yours. You're not going to trash the man to them, of course, but I don't think you have to do anything but let them love him as best they can, b/c God know, he's going to need someone to love him in the years to come-it sounds like he's busy burning bridges now and with that personality, will probably continue that path. Not your problem, though. The kids will know, and their respect and admiration for you will only become stronger as they face trials of their own, and they look back and remember how you withstood yours as a brave, strong, confident woman. Trust me on that.
Sorry for the hijack about me- it didn't start out that way, but as you point out, just saying it out loud is so healing sometimes. Breathe in, breathe out.
Thanks again for your commitment to this forum and all the time you take to help hurting people. It's a real gift you have, and you're using it so well.
180
I'm going to read these carefully and ponder them. I like them.
And I'm comfortable with the "mystery of faith" and trying to be fine with uncertainty. I don't have to have all the answers, (though I thought I did 10 years ago.)
I think we learn to accept what is, even while never knowing exactly why another person does something.
Maybe we just have to know why WE do something.
Thanks
Leahsue
I will re-read your post, I'm sure. I can say "WTF?" for your experience with your ex. I mean, damn. Especially with the thought that you fear for your life.
Reminds me of a murder case I was familiar with. A divorce and custody issues were involved. And the stbxh murdered his 3 children while his w was out jogging. He also took his own life.
He knew his xw would be the one to find the slain children, and he did not want her to die. He wanted her to suffer. Then, to avoid facing the consequences of his own actions, he took his own life. That's some serious cowardly evil.
So be careful, Leahsue, geez.
I'm glad h is not living near me & I don't have to worry about running into him. OR worse...
OH one upside to all the recent crap, is seeing h more clearly.
H totally not having my back when I was sick is the worst thing he's ever done in our m, that I know of--. So no, I don't think affairs are the "Worst thing possible".
See, to me affairs are lousy but I can at least understand the temptation.
But abandoning me when I was sick - and he's an MD - is indefensible. Oddly selfish.
And It is truly something I do not think I will ever understand.
When he finally retrieved me to fly back west, as I was not able to travel alone, we were at my sisters house for the night before the flight.
He stared out a window and turned to her and said "isn't life beautiful??" to my sister, with a weird strange smile on his face. I hoped it was b/c I was recovering but she said "no, 25, that's not how it came out at all."
This "isn't life beautiful??" was said the day after I got out of the neurological ward, from which 40% of the patients never depart...This sister had been terrified for me, as were all my siblings and our children. So even if he was in La La land about the OW or the tundra paradise, or the millions of $$ he'd make all on his own
to say it to my sister, with a smile on his face is simply...NOT NORMAL...incredible lack of social context and no self awareness. I see this small statement as more significant now. Oh, btw, my sister is a calm loving rational woman. She told me it's the first time in her life she "wanted to smash someone in the face."
Oh and the - quitting his GREAT job to avoid paying support, to arguing I should leave my family & friends here behind, to hang a shingle out in Texas b/c, you know, that's where I'm licensed (licensed there, to fit h's future needs but I digress) and I guess starting a law practice is free...
and all the other maneuvers and FB weirdness in my face, and wanting our kids to hear all about how great OW is--(you know, the one he met the day after I filed...yeah, okay...well)
I am not missing this ^^ man very much. My mourning period is shortening rapidly.
Legal/money worries aside, I'm getting comfortable thinking
"Good riddance to lunacy". This man cannot possibly be the man to whom I'm supposed to be married.
I'd rather be alone than with this^^ guy, and yes, I mean that.
Yes, I totally agree. Saying an affair is the worst that can happen, to me is like saying, "Thank the Lord, I'm getting married. Now I'll never be lonely again." HA. The loneliest times in my life have not been when I was alone, but laying right next to someone in the marital bed. But you can't know that until you've been there. I think a better way of phrasing it would be, "So far, in my personal experience, an affair has been the worst thing that has ever happened to me." As we both know, in any relationship, an affair can be the worst, until the next worst thing happens. Betrayal by a loved one can come in so many forms. And it's a personal decision which betrayals can be forgiven and worked through, and all decisions should be respected as just that, personal decisions. Just my 2 cents.
Recently, as I was describing the philosophy of DB to my married D31, she was very thoughtful for a minute, then said, "If Daddy had known about DB and had implemented some of those practices, do you think things would have turned out differently for the two of you?" After carefully thinking about it, I think possibly I may have returned to the marriage, but I truly believe he only wanted us to reconcile so that he could be the one to leave me, instead of his being left. So ultimately, I believe it would have ended. If not then, certainly when our son came out of the closet, we'd not have been able to work through that together, because we still don't agree about loving our son unconditionally. I guess you can imagine which side of that we each fall on. LOL. ExH would still enroll him in a facility to "change him back" if son were not a strong, capable, nurse practitioner who knows and is proud of who he is today, and will tell his dad in a NY minute where he can take his "facility". Just thinking out loud again.
I need to go for a run or a swim, or work in my garden, before I totally take over your thread. I truly don't know why this venting today, but it sure has lifted a burden off me that I didn't realize was there until I felt the lightness. Enjoy the rest of your weekend, safe in the knowledge that your H is a fool of the biggest variety, and you deserve the cream of the crop, so much more than he will ever be able to offer you without some serious metamorphosis.
Thanks for the input.
Lots of ponder. Don't know how to feel about this next comment yet,
but when I somehow circumvent the worries about money, (or if I assume the best for me in court),
my sadness and anxiety about being on my own, plummet & My hope & optimism rise.
Hmmm...
25--my H was mildly selfish and sometimes lazy without a lot of ambition. Seven or so years again that stuff began to ramp up. Now he is insufferable. Naricissism becomes worse in stress and times of crisis.
I too am in the same place of just wishing that I could resolve the financial end and have some finality. I don't think he'll let me unless another woman stays around long enough to force him to do it (but even then he hates being told what to do). Mine never mentions any of the women on FB. Just creepy love poems and the like. Shots of places he must be talking with them about visiting. I think that's because he knows none will work out and he doesn't want to look like a flake.
Leahsue's story is why I have not and will never file D from this man. When he wants it, he'll file for it.
Sadly I think yours is going to fight you to the bitter end. Unless he really wants to marry this woman. Maybe that will cause him to see if through. If so, that is nothing but good for you at this point. I guess my point is to let go of who he has been for the last 35 years and see him for who he is now. He doesn't have your back and will do horrible things to hurt you.
I agree affairs aren't the worst. In my case it is the hot and cold with the kids and the way he royally screws with their emotions. I fear that mine will struggle as Leahsue's have.
Wow, just been reading along and I am in awe of all you ladies. You have been through so much and still put up with a lot from your H's yet you stand strong for yourselves and your children.
These men have no idea what they have and are giving up!
As crapy as this will sound, a marriage to OW would actually soften the blow for you. He would want things settled as fast as possible. He would still give you a hard time but as the court papers are concern, he would want those signed and over with.. in my situation, OW' s pressure on ex-h was a blessing for me.
Hey 25 -I saw the letter you posted on Cali's thread and I have a question for you. I did not want to hijack Cali's thread.
In the letter you posted it basically stated the WAW feels that 6 months of super/reformed/remorseful husband is not going to make up for the years of neglect etc. That I understand.
After the BD, and hearing what my W feels is the source of our undoing etc - I wonder if she will ever realize that she had a role in the R issues too?
My W neglected and rejected me too. During the months of R talk - she always had a way to justify it. Further, she did not like the MC telling her that she is too blame too.
Would the author of that letter ever let herself believe that it takes two to tango?
I'd love to hear your thoughts
[quote=bigybiz]Hey 25 -I saw the letter you posted on Cali's thread and I have a question for you. I did not want to hijack Cali's thread.
In the letter you posted it basically stated the WAW feels that 6 months of super/reformed/remorseful husband
is not going to make up for the years of neglect etc. That I understand.
1) Do you really understand? I'm being sincere. It's very easy to say, but a lot harder to do. To face our own roles in the demise of our m is usually devastating.
And what the WAW wrote there, was that after just 6 months of her h's alleged personal work, she was only beginning to believe the changes without scoffing,
NOT that the changes had overcome the pain she had felt for so long.
(Nor do I believe that it can "make up for" the harms done).
Without going into a martyrdom detail, zno matter what my h does or says and even the most genuine REAL changes in him, will ever undo the damage done by missing years of our children's lives. It cannot be our goal to make things "even." How could we quantify it?
No couple can agree on their marital history fully, but sometimes all that matters is their view of the future, agreeing on where to go from this day forward.
I have been brought to my knees facing my own role in the demise of our m and to the damage I allowed or caused to our children for a decade. It's profound humbling.
It is humbling but it is not humiliating. There's a difference between humility and humiliation.
Many people (including my h) do not know this. The shame of poor choices and what feels like humiliation to my h, probably precluded him from facing the trail of destruction his choices created in his life. He created the very alienation in our family, that angered him. He probably cannot face it.
His issues, his disappointment in his life, his unresolved childhood issues, his r's with our children, his treatment of me, were burdens to me.
As I let go of his issues and his r's and his problems, I feel freer and I feel kinder, better, healthier and more at peace. His issues should never have been in my sandbox. And now, they are not.
Besides, I have so many of my own struggles, grief and debris in my sandbox, I'm in no position to harp about his.
My belief is that genuine Humility is key to self awareness and then change. It's NOT the same as humiliation.
After the BD, and hearing what my W feels is the source of our undoing etc - I wonder if she will ever realize that she had a role in the R issues too?
I'm not familiar enough with your situation to know the answer to ^^this.
Here is my gestalt of your stance...I think you fear that your failings equate to you being a POS and therefore you cannot stay with the pain of acknowledging them, and the remorse it causes is too scary to face for very long. So you are compelled to rotate the mirror back to her when it hurts to look in it for long,
My gut says that you have a "scorecard" that measures her sins in order for you to feel on a level playing field. It is a scorecard you need to get rid of. Scorecards are always destructive in marriages.
Plus, here's a Newsflash - Your wife - 1) she has her own scorecard, and on hers, you are way behind,
And
2) Plus, she's not here trying to save the marriage. You are.
So trying to get her to see & count her wrongs at this point, is self defeating. Maybe it stems from a need of yours to cope with the humility and possible shame you feel about your role. Don't wallow there in shame, b/c people who cannot bear to look within, have the tendency is to lash out at others and say "No, it's YOU not me..."
Try to convert the shame into a healthier useful awakening, get back up, dust yourself off and step forward.
If your w has had years of unmet needs to which she's now awakened, she may feel the way I do. Which is that I'm NOT interested in changes h can claim to be making (and claimed to make a decade ago). Or maybe does make.
I believe I'll never feel the same about him. *Even though I also say "never say never"* And I have 2 family members who remarried their former spouses FWIW.
Hypothetically, if h were to repeat his recon efforts of 10 years ago, and say he wanted the m to work,
BUT THEN if he were to tell me what MY role was in this situation, after all the personal work I've done, versus zero on his end, honestly, I'd probably laugh, scoff or throw something at him and keep moving...
Between me and you and the thousand of readers of this site...as for MY ROLE? YES I OWN MY ROLE and I'm still working on that. I've had a great DB coach and now have a great T. I have to face How i was silent and complicit in bad choices, ask why I didn't enforce boundaries (fear, probably) and whatever I was hiding from, carping with snarky rewards at times, and blending into h's dreams so much that I am discovering mine now...
BUT i'm working on that with my therapist, not my h. I have amends to make as a mother, to my kids. Not to h.
I'm not here to "make my m work" with a man who just won't get it, b/c when he has had his moments of clarity in the past, they did not result in lasting change. So my interest in spending more years of my life hoping it'll all be worth it SOMEDAY...well I'm not interested in that..
My W neglected and rejected me too.
1) Is she here on this site trying to stay married? No she's not. So how does your scorecard help you with your goal? (It does not). I have the feeling that if you admitted you had a temper problem in the marriage, for instance, that you'd bring up times she lost her temper, before the session was over.
That^^ type of interaction is why a lot of MC's sessions end up being bitch sessions and just rehashing old arguments getting nowhere.
Why not clean your own sandbox and stay out of hers? What if you modeled what self awareness, & humbled personal growth look like?
During the months of R talk - she always had a way to justify it. Further, she did not like the MC telling her that she is too blame too.
If she justified it then it sounds like she's not ready to own her role. So drop it, and show her what a confident man does when he sees HIS errors. A confident person can admit to dropping the ball and not believe it makes him a POS. And a confident person won't apologize AND THEN wait for it to be reciprocated. That's not an apology that is a tactic to "even things out".
Either you are sorry for what you did/said, etc, or you are not. HER reaction is irrelevant. And worrying about it at this point is soooo counter productive if you really want to reconcile. Do you, or do you want to not be the rejected party?
I'm sincerely asking you, to ask yourself.
Finally look,
Your w wants out of the m. So, She's not interested in returning to the marriage she left,
UNLESS
she believes that it can be a better/different marriage than before.
It's your job to show her that it can be better/different. How are you doing that?
So either let go of worrying about her own issues till later...or decide you don't want to be married to her.
But to vent about her issues and when she's going to see your side, when she'll work on her issues, the 2 to Tango, etc etc
Is very counter productive at this stage, imo.
Would the author of that letter ever let herself believe that it takes two to tango?
I'd love to hear your thoughts [/quote]
FYI I did Not write that letter. So I can't speak for the author. And since I don't know your situation or wife enough, I cannot predict what she'll do. I don't know what steps you are taking that your w can see and feel are real.
If she doubts the changes won't last, then she's afraid of a backslide into a marriage she wants out of, and which hurt her deeply.
Sure It takes two to make a marriage work. I doubt it's often 50/50, but I think it shifts from 80/20 at times, to 30/70 and it ebbs and flows...both ways.
I happen to think it can take just one to ruin a marriage.
Regardless,
Boils down to why YOU are here. It is not about her. She's not here. I'll repeat that for emphasis. It's Not about her.
Are you here to do what you can to become the best version of yourself, and hopefully save your m as well,
OR
to get a verdict about who shall be assigned the higher % of blame, & who is more right??
Sometimes we worry that admitting our mistakes means someone will kick us when we are down, OR that those mistakes equate to us being unworthy of being loved. A fear of rejection is closely linked to shame. Hence the terror some have of admitting our errors.
I'm not sure how forgiveness was modeled in your childhood home, or what it looks like to you. But I think it's important.
In any case, why are you here now? If you are here to work on yourself & improve as a h, then why make this about your w? (Or the author of the letter?)
I kept a copy of that letter b/c the author made great points. The guy to whom she addressed it, really took it in and changed his paradigm. His name was Denver.
After personal work and some changes, Denver was actually indignant and increasingly angry that she would not take him back after his changes and he started to ponder HER failings...but fortunately he came here first.
In time and with an inward journey, Denver came to see that he was not "entitled" to another chance.
He stopped making the recon all about when his wife "should" take him back and he definitely stopped worrying about her doing her work. He was just humbled by the insights shared by the author of that letter (whose name escapes me at the moment) and humbled by a brave look within. He faced his own Sandbox and got in it to do real work.
Once humbled, a transformation took place in Denver.
Denver bravely faced some dark things in him that he did not want to face. He didn't like everything he found. But he chose to look at them anyhow, he chose to address those dark pieces and to expunge them from his heart. He changed. He came to know and love himself a lot more.
It's such a gift to see the miracle of spiritual awakenings lead to profound change in someone. It certainly has helped me face mine. I am grateful for this site.
I have attended some scary personal growth workshops that changed the trajectory of my life. I have gotten great therapy, had a Godsent DB coach. Now I am okay with screwing things up - in the sense that admitting them does not make them worse.
It's only by seeing the truth of where I am, that I can change where I'm going.
Denver wondered out loud whether he simply wanted to "win" his wife back, so as not to be the rejected party
VERSUS truly loving the woman he'd married.
According to Denver, he become a MUCH better man than he ever would have been, were it not for this ordeal.
He fully faced his truth as a h. He admitted that he'd been neglectful of his w, often critical, complacent in the m, and sometimes worse, off and on for nearly 5 years of their m. In sum, he really did "get it." And he worked to change those things about himself.
Bigy, Denver KNEW his w had issues of her own. Heck, We all knew. But his work was HIS WORK....so he stayed in his sandbox and he kept out of hers...
Later, when he showed his w thru consistent changes, over time, that he was the man she'd always wanted him to be,
it was then that she began her own journey and her own program and she too, was humbled.
To my knowledge, they are in a restored marriage.
Speaking for myself, I find it liberating not to worry about what my H is doing or if he realizes his part, or will ever know the pain he caused, or work to repair it, etc. I don't know if he'll ever face it or shoulder it or own ANY of it.
I do know that I spent way too much of MY LIFE wondering about that^^.
I never had control over any of it anyhow. And, I could have spent all that time on improving myself.
It's just so freeing to know that h's issues & awareness, or lack thereof, are Not my problems.
I have enough to work on in my sandbox.
Make sense?
I have to face How i was silent and complicit in bad choices, ask why I didn't enforce boundaries (fear, probably) and whatever I was hiding from, carping with snarky rewards at times, and blending into h's dreams so much that I am discovering mine now...
BINGO
This is the most important thing in making a new relationship.
SO whether it is with you your old spouse or someone new if you dont fix yourself you can not hve a great relationship in the future without this.
Yes this is true.
Very true and it's a lot of what I'm working on with my new T. I asked her for the type of T that checks me. Not just letting me talk and hope I glean from the universe, etc.
And not the type that says "whatever feels right or good, do it!"
I want to lead a morally good life BECAUSE that helps me be happy.
DATING vs R QUESTIONS
I know I'm not ready for a "relationship". I hear that generically and "never marry the first R you date. Never..."
I hear this from T's and it makes sense b/c I'm obviously angry at h and not totally detached.
Must I be totally detached to be in a R? I think so.
I think I have to be detached from h in order to have a R...but maybe to just share a dinner and movie, maybe I don't require total detachment? Just can't bash h all night b/c If I'm doing that, I must not be ready for any fun.
Guys, I'm not experienced with this. Obviously.
I really do not want to have fear in my next r. Don't get me wrong. Of course there's fear in love b/c you are taking a risk with your heart. I get that. But if it's really not right, I'll walk.
There are lots of things worse than being alone. (So far I'm not hating living alone, btw. Maybe around the holidays I will? I don't think I'll borrow trouble from the future right now. I had dinner with a neighbor last night, btw. Lunch tomorrow with high school friends. And seeing my T, and doing divorce pooperwork.
I know I'd rather be alone - than wish I was alone.And I know we all have to work on lasting r's.
Yeah, i think we know that. 
There's a difference though. I see mediocre r's around sometimes and IF there are no kids and no marital commitment or long history then WHY??
There are no ties and it's like inertia has just taken over. A very close friend of mine is in a r with an obvious impasse. NO sexual compatibility and one partner pays NOTHING towards expenses, even after 6 years and yes he works. She says those are deal breakers...6 years of deal breakers, and no marriage and no kids.
Man, after all the - hard a$$ work I have put into this m, and all the years, the decades. the thousands of nights without a lover or coparent or friend in bed with me b/c h's hours were unrelenting...i'm just not up for someone with major baggage. Not over 40....
I want an honest, kind man (who gets my jokes- b/c I'm friggin' hilarious)...and a bit of chemistry would be delightful.
Is it too much to ask they have NO glaring flaw or deficit from childhood that he has not worked out by the time he's in his 40's??? B/c i'm thinking, No thank you kind sir,
No thanks...
is ^^^this being too picky of me?
I know I will NOT be shamed again, since that comes from within us. Our concern about how we are viewed by others.
SHAME and fear of blowing it.
In terms of blowing it, I'm not really the type to move too fast. (OR at least I never was before.) So the "blowing it" would mean we discover an incompatibility and that's not really blowing it. it's finding out you're not well suited.
That's important to know, right?
I mean, what's the biggest challenge in dating after a painful divorce (as opposed to the fun painless divorces)??
QUESTION, my son30 asks me questions and we talk like we are friends.
I'm not totally comfortable with ^^that. It's new. I'm still the parent. He's very mature, and protective and angry at h.
S30 said for me "stop being incredulous that h's playing dirty." Ouch
So I just wanted feedback on that change in parent child r, which I'm not okay with, at least not yet. WE get along well, to be clear.
And I ask you guys for some prayers folks, b/c the status hearing that was supposed to be pro forma in the morning, like in 12 hours,
has turned into a surprise attack from h's new lawyers (tundra based) and his CA lawyer joined, I suppose. It's morphing into a big thing for H to lower support payments (he's never paid them BUT THEY'RE TOO HIGH...)
he quit his job to avoid paying...incredible.
I also found evidence of some major hiding of money 5 years ago. There MAY be a reasonable explanation for it (truly) but I just cannot think of one. It says business account for services rendered...I cannot decide if I want a legit reason for themoney being there, which likely means its gone OR if I want it to be there so I get half.
But that means' he's been psycho lying for 6 years???
Lovely...
Yikes I am rambling because i fear the hearing in the morning..
but I'm so overdue for sleep. Good night to my journal audience feedback, fellow travelers, and DB friends...
May we have a good, even lucky day this monday.
xoxo
Is it too much to ask they have NO glaring flaw or deficit from childhood that he has not worked out by the time he's in his 40's??? B/c i'm thinking, No thank you kind sir,
No thanks...
is ^^^this being too picky of me?
I want to know why you are picking out 40's.
Why not 50's or 60's?
Personally I think I went through some things in my 40's
I know I got very angry and yelled a lot during that time period.
Not something I do now at all.
So just curious since you and I are close in age why you are using 40's as a line in the sand?
QUESTION, my son30 asks me questions and we talk like we are friends.
My children are of a similar age and they are starting to treat me in a similar fashion.
Possibly because they are more adult like at this time.
Certainly right this minute my children are both more successful than me in their careers.
Maybe they just think they know more than they really do.
I guess it is more about them than it is about us and they feel protective of their parents.
It is a good question that you have asked though.
I used 40 b/c that was the youngest I could imagine.
Unless it's that guy from Game of Thrones...I'd "date" him (and he can't be more than 25).
You are truly one of the bravest women I know. I came to the board today to update my sitch and came upon this. Thank you for being so candid. I feel for you, deeply.
I, too am at a fork in the road, and decided that D is the best option for me and my children to protect them and our future. The decision is painful yet freeing.
GAL
thanks for the kind words. Your name looks familiar.
the hearing went well enough today, that is that the payments continue and in late July we will assess whether he really has 'retired", or is deliberately unemployed.
You want irony? If we were married, we'd both be able to retire. But as I write that, the odds of h retiring ( i mean, without the D issues) are low.
He went up to Alaska to make his fortune.
So he's either trying to wait it out, and then going back to work
or he's really retiring to punish me & is retiring but hey, you're welcome, b/c he's a workaholic who probably won't ever retire unless "forced" by an evil 25
or the whole thing is BS and he's hiding income another way.
I don't have to figure this^^ out tonight however. Just hoping to find a check from h somewhere.
Also, btw, his filing was kind of crazy. Huge changes of position and remarks that IN MY EYES make him sound like an ass. I actually think his lawyer is slightly embarrassed but I might be reading into it.
Going to CA for the "vocational eval" this week. It will NOT be fun. But I'll see my 2 older kids, which will be fun.
QUESTION
our youngest and most angry child, d19, has h's old cell phone. The fool did not wipe his texts clean. Several texts are blasting me or lying to me (and some inappropriate ones to other women he works with that are, at best, way too flirtatious).
But h blasts d19 in some of his texts.
In one text to his bff, he says he "won't invest any more time" in his R with this daughter. He is "giving up on her" (b/c they fought and though she was difficult, it was 90% due to his constant neglect and long absences. PLUS she's the child and he's the parent...)
She retains these painful texts. She wants to post one on his FB page on fathers day.
(OKAY I ADMIT I LAUGHED at that one) but not in front of her...
it's sad, it's horrifying and yet...what did he expect?
I find myself wondering what h believes will happen to his r's when they've rarely seen him or bonded , and all the rest that has happened with us.
actually I do not wonder b/c
1) he does not think of it, it's far too shameful and painful & reflects poorly on him
2) IF and when he does look at the r's he has with our kids, the shame will morph into blame. It'll be my fault.
It sure has in the past.
My T had a great line today. B/c I wrack my brain trying to figure h out and "how can he....and WHY IS he...????" God knows I spent a year doing that a decade ago.
Her remark was "don't put a rational spin on irrational behaviors."
I've got to stop boxing h into my head where I really do articulate and examine what I'm feeling, working on processing the emotions and Dealing with them...
that's not what h does. And that's that.
So I need to figure out what I want and what I can do, without h in my head. The money issues loom, that's true. But not everything is about that.
I guess I'm trying to find peace inside no matter what the clouds are doing around me
QUESTION
our youngest and most angry child, d19, has h's old cell phone. The fool did not wipe his texts clean. Several texts are blasting me or lying to me (and some inappropriate ones to other women he works with that are, at best, way too flirtatious).
But h blasts d19 in some of his texts.
MHO is to stay out of the middle of your childrens relationship with their father.
That is for him and them to work out and should have nothing to do with YOU.
They are certainly old enough to fend for themselves as far as that goes.
My ex destroyed her relationship with my son.
Left him on the side of the road about 6 years ago, he was around 23 at the time and drove off to another state.
That did not go over too well with him.
They are slowly mending their relationship now and at least he will talk to her now.
Not sure he will ever trust her though.
I hear you Cadet. She told me the part about the texts she found he'd sent about her.
And after the court thing today I didn't really expect it from her or maybe I was just too self absorbed to be aware. She said it by phone and I moved on.
I could have said something - but remember that they have also told me not to defend him. THEY asked about court today and I said minimal, like "your father quit his job but for now the payments continue."
It's a fine line between covering for him (which I did for years, and which they have specifically asked me not to do)
and just telling too much.
Finding it I guess
What'd you tell your son when he asked about his mom?
QUESTION
our youngest and most angry child, d19, has h's old cell phone. The fool did not wipe his texts clean. Several texts are blasting me or lying to me (and some inappropriate ones to other women he works with that are, at best, way too flirtatious).
But h blasts d19 in some of his texts.
In one text to his bff, he says he "won't invest any more time" in his R with this daughter. He is "giving up on her" (b/c they fought and though she was difficult, it was 90% due to his constant neglect and long absences. PLUS she's the child and he's the parent...)
She retains these painful texts. She wants to post one on his FB page on fathers day.
This hits home for me. I was about 19 or 20 when I picked up my dad's phone for something legitimate. I can't remember what, I think I was going to use it to call my mom or something like that. Doesn't matter. I saw odd texts to his old secretary (like 20 years previous) bragging about his kids and I saw calls to a weird number. I searched the internet for the number and found ads for a lady of the night.
Never looked at my father the same again. I never brought it up to him, but I was extremely disappointed in him. I knew my parents had long ago stopped any attempt at working on their R, but...this was [censored] I never needed nor wanted to know.
I never actually saw a "question" in there, haha, but I'm guessing you wanted to ask what to do about D19 having the phone? It's really fùcking unhealthy for her to have it and be reading that crap. She's not going to easily give it over to you or destroy it and you probably wouldn't want to ask her to. Posting on FB is too much. But she also needs to get it out of her hands so she can start to heal. Tell her to mail it to him, kills two birds with one stone.
WOW....shít....I just had my own revelation about something. Will write about it in my thread to avoid hijacking.
Anyways...D19 needs to ditch the phone one way or another.
180
I hear you. (Oh, geez I just realized I've been paying for his/her phone
and mine, which was my "Christmas gift" both on my credit card. Excellent).
So now it's her only phone (a pricey iPhone & I ought to know).
So I asked her partner to take the phone and delete the messages, b/c they're not healthy for d19. She agreed.
I think d19 took a screen shot of it...which just so $ucks. She's gay and so she'll associate his rejection with that, I THINK.. D19 was troubled and had a temper, and imo, her being gay is, IN H's opinion a bad reflection on him. I think he's ashamed of her, although I have seen efforts on his end to overcome that. (Hey, I'm not giving him an award, just admitting that he's never condemned her and will tell anyone who gives her crap, that it's none of their business and I have one BIL who says "Christians must condemn gays". H and I were totally on the same page with that idiot).
My guess is it's more that d19 is angry at him b/c she saw more crap from him than the older ones did. She suspects other A's (and she might be right).
She just sent me a text telling me I'm a 'Star mother" and that she is "proud of me and so glad" I'm not with her dad.
I don't feel vindicated, but I feel sad for her and on the other hand, I also do feel loved. Oh Christ...
180,
that's a lousy experience to recall. (Sorry). I'm intrigued that you never mentioned it to your dad.
So, the model of marriage you had growing up wasn't exactly something positive to emulate, was it?
180
I hear you. (Oh, geez I just realized I've been paying for his/her phone
and mine, which was my "Christmas gift" both on my credit card. Excellent).
So now it's her only phone (a pricey iPhone & I ought to know).
So I asked her partner to take the phone and delete the messages, b/c they're not healthy for d19. She agreed.
I think d19 took a screen shot of it...which just so $ucks. She's gay and so she'll associate his rejection with that, I THINK.. D19 was troubled and had a temper, and imo, her being gay is, IN H's opinion a bad reflection on him. I think he's ashamed of her, although I have seen efforts on his end to overcome that. (Hey, I'm not giving him an award, just admitting that he's never condemned her and will tell anyone who gives her crap, that it's none of their business and I have one BIL who says "Christians must condemn gays". H and I were totally on the same page with that idiot).
My guess is it's more that d19 is angry at him b/c she saw more crap from him than the older ones did. She suspects other A's (and she might be right).
She just sent me a text telling me I'm a 'Star mother" and that she is "proud of me and so glad" I'm not with her dad.
I don't feel vindicated, but I feel sad for her and on the other hand, I also do feel loved. Oh Christ...
Hmm, that's a tough one. My older B is gay. He has never told me, but my M told my W and I several years ago. I kind of figured as much, but whatever. Never talked about it with my F at all, I got the impression from my M that he initially rejected the idea but came around to accept it. My M and B are victims, that's their nature. If you ever needed to study the art of the guilt trip, they would be the first ones to observe. To my knowledge my F never said anything to my B about it, nor held anything against him. I suspect he was probably disappointed, perhaps in himself, I'm not sure. I'd ask him but he had a stroke two years ago and has been in a nursing home since. Can't talk, I don't even know how much of him is still in there. My W's step-father met the same fate two weeks after BD. MIL is now taking care of him all the time, plus working two jobs, plus trying to keep kids in line...telling my W to unfùck herself is now a low priority, as much as MIL is on my side. Wow, am I rambling or what?! Sorry!!
I was angry when I was your D's age. It took a girl breaking up with me to really calm me down. I don't know what I was angry about...it was just in there for some reason. You can't do anything about your H's view on D19's lifestyle choice. Everyone who makes that choice has to deal with it in one form another. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it is what it is. But you
are a Star Mother for caring about her and asking her partner to clean out the texts!
180,
that's a lousy experience to recall. (Sorry). I'm intrigued that you never mentioned it to your dad.
So, the model of marriage you had growing up wasn't exactly something positive to emulate, was it?
Eh, it's okay. Not as bad as when my W and I drove up to my parent's house after the stroke and found a briefcase of sex toys my F had stashed in the garage which he had, presumably, been sharing with his old secretary. W and I never told my M, we drove down the street and threw it in a dumpster. She found out about the A, but the least we could do was spare her that discovery.
My parents fought a lot when I was young. Nothing physical, just lots of yelling. Consequently, I hate yelling. Was definitely a shock when I went through OCS, hah. They toned down as I got older and by the time I was in college they really seemed to get along like great friends a lot of the time. I know there was still plenty of arguing, but as much as they bítched about each other, I would watch them at dinner and they really got along well sometimes. Let's just say that I thought I had learned what NOT to do from my parents....but....my R went flat instead and now I'm here. At least the dog still likes me, I think...
180
I hear you. (Oh, geez I just realized I've been paying for his/her phone
and mine, which was my "Christmas gift" both on my credit card. Excellent).
So now it's her only phone (a pricey iPhone & I ought to know).
So I asked her partner to take the phone and delete the messages, b/c they're not healthy for d19. She agreed.
I think d19 took a screen shot of it...which just so $ucks. She's gay and so she'll associate his rejection with that, I THINK.. D19 was troubled and had a temper, and imo, her being gay is, IN H's opinion a bad reflection on him. I think he's ashamed of her, although I have seen efforts on his end to overcome that. (Hey, I'm not giving him an award, just admitting that he's never condemned her and will tell anyone who gives her crap, that it's none of their business and I have one BIL who says "Christians must condemn gays". H and I were totally on the same page with that idiot).
My guess is it's more that d19 is angry at him b/c she saw more crap from him than the older ones did. She suspects other A's (and she might be right).
She just sent me a text telling me I'm a 'Star mother" and that she is "proud of me and so glad" I'm not with her dad.
I don't feel vindicated, but I feel sad for her and on the other hand, I also do feel loved. Oh Christ...
Hmm, that's a tough one. My older B is gay. He has never told me, but my M told my W and I several years ago. I kind of figured as much, but whatever. Never talked about it with my F at all, I got the impression from my M that he initially rejected the idea but came around to accept it. My M and B are victims, that's their nature. If you ever needed to study the art of the guilt trip, they would be the first ones to observe.
Shame usually breeds secrets, and they get harder to hide. Then more secrets to hide the first secrets, etc. I'm just saying this this^^ is a whole lot of "not saying" .
I read this quote and I'm paraphrasing it...
Disclosure builds intimacy. The less we share of ourselves, the less we are known, and the more shallow our connections.
To my knowledge my F never said anything to my B about it, nor held anything against him. I suspect he was probably disappointed, perhaps in himself, I'm not sure. I'd ask him but he had a stroke two years ago and has been in a nursing home since.
so it's too late to ask, now? Not to hammer the point too much, but damn...this is the cost of the secret. To be clear, I'm referring to the gay B, not the rest of the stuff your mom sort of knows but does not need details of. Can't talk, I don't even know how much of him is still in there. My W's step-father met the same fate two weeks after BD. MIL is now taking care of him all the time, plus working two jobs, plus trying to keep kids in line...telling my W to unfùck herself is now a low priority, as much as MIL is on my side. Wow, am I rambling or what?! Sorry!!
I was angry when I was your D's age. It took a girl breaking up with me to really calm me down. I don't know what I was angry about...it was just in there for some reason. You can't do anything about your H's view on D19's lifestyle choice.
well, I asked d19 if she thought any of her sexuality was related to her poor r with her dad. She said "it didn't help." She had a boyfriend before but in any case, some will chime in about how being gay is not a choice. I KNOW THIS...she is also attracted to men, or was, so there's a preference in there somewhere.
Our older d also declared herself bisexual around the same time h left for his 2nd year away (Just checking a job out" - never admitting that he was missing her junior and senior years of high school),
When she came out, and discussed the boys she had dated, she also said "men have hurt" her more than women.
When both daughters told me they were not straight, (but they are very different and i don't mean to just lump them into one group),
I know for a brief day or so, it crossed h's mind that he might have played a part in their discomfort with men. Whatttt???
Not so much their attraction to women but for sure their fear of loving a man. I mean, they said that. This isn't guess work. But he couldn't "go there", way too painful and maybe, well imo, H is more concerned with how he is seen than whether he's done wrong.
That whole difference between guilt (you know you did wrong, even if no one finds out) and shame (worrying that others will find out AND reject you or see you in another light, is your worst fear, not the content of the action)....
Shame played/plays a huge role in h's life now more than ever. To hear his narrative of our m...we all know there are different perspectives but my God, his is WAY off of my kids and my own recall. S30 said h is mentally ill and I balked. S30 said "mom, look at him. He substitutes his reality for ours...good riddance to lunacy."
So 180...what do you think the role shame AND OR secrets played in your family? Is your gay brother close to anyone in the family? Does he have a committed partner?
I don't know him at all, obviously. But I feel an estranged loneliness for him. And since your parents never addressed what was under the rug they had swept things,
I bet you can see why your w's fears mounted. Maybe to her, the strokes meant eternally unresolved issues.
Everyone who makes that choice has to deal with it in one form another. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it is what it is. But you
are a Star Mother for caring about her and asking her partner to clean out the texts!
thanks180,
that's a lousy experience to recall. (Sorry). I'm intrigued that you never mentioned it to your dad.
So, the model of marriage you had growing up wasn't exactly something positive to emulate, was it?
Eh, it's okay. Not as bad as when my W and I drove up to my parent's house after the stroke and found a briefcase of sex toys my F had stashed in the garage which he had, presumably, been sharing with his old secretary. W and I never told my M, we drove down the street and threw it in a dumpster.
She found out about the A, but the least we could do was spare her that discovery. My parents fought a lot when I was young. Nothing physical, just lots of yelling.
Consequently, I hate yelling.
A lot of us learned what "not to do", but we tend to revert to it when stressed OR we do the opposite. H for sure either yelled or kept it to himself in his emotional backpack where he could seethe, then lose his $hit in a huge over reaction b/c it was really about things he'd been accumulating,
or he'd do what is called "Collusion" in which he'd complain to others about me or something I did or did not do, but never tell ME, the appropriate audience. I've pondered this behavior a lot. Here is why it's so destructive.
(And I'm not referring to a few minutes of venting to our peeps, which is normal and probably healthy). But the complaints that are never shared with the correct target, like your spouse or your boss, co-worker, is unfair to the target, and its disloyal. Ever wonder who spoke of your b's life, or your wife & you, lately?
I think H did it to get buy in from his bff, b/c for one thing, his bff is also MY friend and bff's wife is close to me. So he wanted to lay the groundwork for heading off to Alaska, and justifying nearly daring me to file. OR he just passively hoped others would pass on the criticisms and that way, h wouldn't have to own anything.
Either way, what a jerk.
The disloyalty of this^^ and the failure to show up for me when I was so sick, felt worse to ME, than anything else short of hitting me. (I filed before news of OW came out)
Some argue about how A's are the "worst thing ever, the biggest betrayal, most disrespectful" etc. I am weary and leery of black and white rules like that.( I mean, they can speak for themselves, you know?)
To be clear, yes I hate A's too. They're gut wrenching. I get it.
But I can at least I understand the temptation. (There's an appeal). Heck, 25 years ago I almost had an A. It was Desrt Storm and we were both Active duty. 2 little kids at the time.
I was so lonely, that it hurt. H was irritable when he was actually home, He worked 80+ hours a week, every week and there was no end in sight. One week I counted his hours away at work and it was 96, plus he read for a case when he came home. So he still wasn't present.
Those are insane hours and it's awfully hard on families too.
I still come close to justifying the A too, based on this^^^ his irritability when he was home, which was rare. I mean he wasn't exactly grateful for MY sacrifices, as he fell asleep at the table, often. The "almost A" was about MY PAIN and the temptation of an attentive OM, not my "disrespect" for h or the marriage. I think i did resent H for the situation sat some level, but not consciously.
But I digress...
Deserting a sick spouse, the one who bore your children, the backstabbing about you, that takes time and thought and isn't a momentary lapse. It'd be awfully hard to overcome this.
I TRY to imagine retcons just so I can say "never say never". So I can always say I'm open hearted.
But even if all the work in the world happened in h's heart and mind, even if he woke up and did all the work needed - I would not believe it to be effective till a few years had passed.
*So maybe in your situation, maybe it really is a thing where you back off, each get space and touch base now and then...until she sees that the you were close and bonded, for a reason.
Was definitely a shock when I went through OCS, hah. They toned down as I got older and by the time I was in college they really seemed to get along like great friends a lot of the time. I know there was still plenty of arguing, but as much as they bítched about each other, I would watch them at dinner and they really got along well sometimes. Let's just say that I thought I had
learned what NOT to do from my parents....but....my R went flat instead and now I'm here. At least the dog still likes me, I think...
Learning what not to do, is helpful. I strongly believe that learning what TO DO, is more important. Why?
Because in times of stress, we revert to what we know OR we avoid anything remotely resembling it, too much.
G, a dear friend of mine, (H's bff) is perhaps the best h and best father I know. He's about 50 and he's always been a sensitive fair thoughtful guy.
G's role model for what Not to do, was his own dad. G's dad impregnanted his OW so that when G was 9, he watched his mom cry, his parents divorce and his father introduce the OW (now his W#2) as his new family. G was supposed to accept her without much time, and also welcome his new baby brother.
A few years later G's dad got a divorce and G was supposed to adjust again. His dad remarried wife #3, Sally. His dad and Sally remained married for some time. That's when I knew G's dad, and he was borderline weird. I recall him saying something like "Who wears the pants in this family?" And this was in modern times, you know?
Stuck out in my recall of course.
So fast forward a few years and Sally left G's dad. His dad just fell apart. I mean, he was very controlling and domineering and seemed strong,
but when his 3rd m fell apart, so did he. Eventually, after draining those around him for some time, G's dad took his own life.
Lousy, right? YES it was lousy. So how did G become the best dad/h that I know?? He sure knew what NOT to do, but how'd he learn how to to the right thing?
He found a few role models. He had a role model for being a good dad/h from his FIL, and he learned about fathering from his kids' coaches and he learned about how to handle stress from a deacon at church. So that when life threw him a curve ball, which it did, he had positive paths and options to choose from, that he already knew.
Last week there was a photo of G and his family on FB. Not a posed one either. Just them walking on the beach with their adult kids, and their spouses, and 2 grand kids.
I was happy and then mournful and then envious. I confessed this to them. I recall thinking that "it could have been h and me." So, 180, keep up your work for 2 reasons.
1) b/c it'll make you a better man. Period.
2) b/c your w might look your way and see that consistent changes were made, over time, so she can believe them to be real, and lasting.
She can come to believe only with time and change, that you guys are not destined to be your parents.
While you are at it, contrast any of those negative images that you can. If your dad was a fat sloth then you come the slim fit guy.
You get the point.
Hang in there.
Dang 180, I thought this post was on your thread.
Oh well...
Dang 180, I thought this post was on your thread.
Oh well...
Ahhh, sorry we got so mixed up with threads tonight. I was trying hard not to hijack!!
so it's too late to ask, now? Not to hammer the point too much, but damn...this is the cost of the secret. To be clear, I'm referring to the gay B, not the rest of the stuff your mom sort of knows but does not need details of.
Pretty much. Honestly, if I could ask him only one question I'm pretty sure my B's sexual identity doesn't even get close to the list. Not sure what question I would want to ask, but it's probably just as well since I'm not sure going through that mental exercise is going to be helpful or fun.
well, I asked d19 if she thought any of her sexuality was related to her poor r with her dad. She said "it didn't help." She had a boyfriend before but in any case, some will chime in about how being gay is not a choice. I KNOW THIS...she is also attracted to men, or was, so there's a preference in there somewhere.
Our older d also declared herself bisexual around the same time h left for his 2nd year away (Just checking a job out" - never admitting that he was missing her junior and senior years of high school),
When she came out, and discussed the boys she had dated, she also said "men have hurt" her more than women.
When both daughters told me they were not straight, (but they are very different and i don't mean to just lump them into one group),
I know for a brief day or so, it crossed h's mind that he might have played a part in their discomfort with men. Whatttt???
Not so much their attraction to women but for sure their fear of loving a man. I mean, they said that. This isn't guess work. But he couldn't "go there", way too painful and maybe, well imo, H is more concerned with how he is seen than whether he's done wrong.
That whole difference between guilt (you know you did wrong, even if no one finds out) and shame (worrying that others will find out AND reject you or see you in another light, is your worst fear, not the content of the action)....
That is really interesting and intense. My B had a girlfriend in high school who dumped him after a year or so, I think. I believe he also had some serious feelings for a girl in college but it didn't work out for whatever reason. Not sure why and I never asked. Based on what you're saying, I wonder if my M caused my B some sort of issues influencing his desire to be gay? Idk. Waaaaaay out of my wheelhouse! You H probably feels a whole range of feelings about this topic with respect to your Ds. He probably feels guilt AND shame AND fear AND lots of others. Not having had any kids I'm completely speaking out of turn, but despite everything else going on I'd say it's fair to give them the benefit of the doubt if you think it's reasonable to do so.
[color:#3333FF] Shame played/plays a huge role in h's life now more than ever. To hear his narrative of our m...we all know there are different perspectives but my God, his is WAY off of my kids and my own recall. S30 said h is mentally ill and I balked. S30 said "mom, look at him. He substitutes his reality for ours...good riddance to lunacy."
So 180...what do you think the role shame AND OR secrets played in your family? Is your gay brother close to anyone in the family? Does he have a committed partner?
I don't know him at all, obviously. But I feel an estranged loneliness for him. And since your parents never addressed what was under the rug they had swept things,
I bet you can see why your w's fears mounted. Maybe to her, the strokes meant eternally unresolved issues.
S30 may be dead on. But I'll tell you what...I really really wish I could call my Dad up right now and ask him to drive down here for a weekend and help me work on the house. I wouldn't need to talk to him about my M, but it'd be nice to have a Dad still, flawed or not. Two years ago, however, I wouldn't have seen it this way. I would have been pretty neutral with respect to my whole side of the family.
A lot of us learned what "not to do", but we tend to revert to it when stressed OR we do the opposite. H for sure either yelled or kept it to himself in his emotional backpack where he could seethe, then lose his $hit in a huge over reaction b/c it was really about things he'd been accumulating,
or he'd do what is called "Collusion" in which he'd complain to others about me or something I did or did not do, but never tell ME, the appropriate audience. I've pondered this behavior a lot. Here is why it's so destructive.
(And I'm not referring to a few minutes of venting to our peeps, which is normal and probably healthy). But the complaints that are never shared with the correct target, like your spouse or your boss, co-worker, is unfair to the target, and its disloyal. Ever wonder who spoke of your b's life, or your wife & you, lately?
I think H did it to get buy in from his bff, b/c for one thing, his bff is also MY friend and bff's wife is close to me. So he wanted to lay the groundwork for heading off to Alaska, and justifying nearly daring me to file. OR he just passively hoped others would pass on the criticisms and that way, h wouldn't have to own anything.
Either way, what a jerk.
The disloyalty of this^^ and the failure to show up for me when I was so sick, felt worse to ME, than anything else short of hitting me. (I filed before news of OW came out)
Some argue about how A's are the "worst thing ever, the biggest betrayal, most disrespectful" etc. I am weary and leery of black and white rules like that.( I mean, they can speak for themselves, you know?)
To be clear, yes I hate A's too. They're gut wrenching. I get it.
But I can at least I understand the temptation. (There's an appeal). Heck, 25 years ago I almost had an A. It was Desrt Storm and we were both Active duty. 2 little kids at the time.
I was so lonely, that it hurt. H was irritable when he was actually home, He worked 80+ hours a week, every week and there was no end in sight. One week I counted his hours away at work and it was 96, plus he read for a case when he came home. So he still wasn't present.
Those are insane hours and it's awfully hard on families too.
I still come close to justifying the A too, based on this^^^ his irritability when he was home, which was rare. I mean he wasn't exactly grateful for MY sacrifices, as he fell asleep at the table, often. The "almost A" was about MY PAIN and the temptation of an attentive OM, not my "disrespect" for h or the marriage. I think i did resent H for the situation sat some level, but not consciously.
But I digress...
Deserting a sick spouse, the one who bore your children, the backstabbing about you, that takes time and thought and isn't a momentary lapse. It'd be awfully hard to overcome this.
I TRY to imagine retcons just so I can say "never say never". So I can always say I'm open hearted.
But even if all the work in the world happened in h's heart and mind, even if he woke up and did all the work needed - I would not believe it to be effective till a few years had passed.
I flew to Germany in 2011 after my W had been medevac'd. We spent the next year in and out of doctor's appointments, I went to pretty much every appointment she had. She was facing a medical discharge. I was facing an 8+ month deployment and a W losing her career and living far away from our families while having medical issues. A buddy of mine suggested I look into the Guard or Reserves. Long story short, I thought finding a Guard/Reserve unit near her family would help us. I figured I could work for these guys and we could be close to her parents. A guard unit offered me a job. I was selfish in the fact that the jobs I was looking at with these units were going to be doing things that sounded cooler than what I was doing. The grass looked really really green for me then. W ended up being able to stay in and I kept doing what I was doing...but W always held it against me that I tried to jump ship and use her as an excuse to get out of active duty. That wasn't my reason to start with, but that's what it turned into. I was also scared of what the active duty side was asking me to go through at the time. The Guard job I was offered would have really set me up well for a civilian job. It WAS selfish, but it also wasn't. I still feel guilty about it. This is the opposite extreme from your H and we both screwed up.
*So maybe in your situation, maybe it really is a thing where you back off, each get space and touch base now and then...until she sees that the you were close and bonded, for a reason.
This is such a depressing and yet positive thought. My brain still has trouble coping with this new reality. I pray that you're right but I'm not sure I have the strength to make it through what you describe.
Learning what not to do, is helpful. I strongly believe that learning what TO DO, is more important. Why?
Because in times of stress, we revert to what we know OR we avoid anything remotely resembling it, too much.
G, a dear friend of mine, (H's bff) is perhaps the best h and best father I know. He's about 50 and he's always been a sensitive fair thoughtful guy.
G's role model for what Not to do, was his own dad. G's dad impregnanted his OW so that when G was 9, he watched his mom cry, his parents divorce and his father introduce the OW (now his W#2) as his new family. G was supposed to accept her without much time, and also welcome his new baby brother.
A few years later G's dad got a divorce and G was supposed to adjust again. His dad remarried wife #3, Sally. His dad and Sally remained married for some time. That's when I knew G's dad, and he was borderline weird. I recall him saying something like "Who wears the pants in this family?" And this was in modern times, you know?
Stuck out in my recall of course.
So fast forward a few years and Sally left G's dad. His dad just fell apart. I mean, he was very controlling and domineering and seemed strong,
but when his 3rd m fell apart, so did he. Eventually, after draining those around him for some time, G's dad took his own life.
Lousy, right? YES it was lousy. So how did G become the best dad/h that I know?? He sure knew what NOT to do, but how'd he learn how to to the right thing?
He found a few role models. He had a role model for being a good dad/h from his FIL, and he learned about fathering from his kids' coaches and he learned about how to handle stress from a deacon at church. So that when life threw him a curve ball, which it did, he had positive paths and options to choose from, that he already knew.
Last week there was a photo of G and his family on FB. Not a posed one either. Just them walking on the beach with their adult kids, and their spouses, and 2 grand kids.
I was happy and then mournful and then envious. I confessed this to them. I recall thinking that "it could have been h and me." So, 180, keep up your work for 2 reasons.
1) b/c it'll make you a better man. Period.
2) b/c your w might look your way and see that consistent changes were made, over time, so she can believe them to be real, and lasting.
She can come to believe only with time and change, that you guys are not destined to be your parents.
While you are at it, contrast any of those negative images that you can. If your dad was a fat sloth then you come the slim fit guy.
You get the point.
Hang in there.
Pretty awful story about G's F. I'm waaay past my bedtime so I'm not sure how clearly I'm thinking right now. Sounds like G found his own good foundation and flourished from there. My FIL is a great guy, but he's very very passive. Probably too far away to have as a role model, especially now. Haven't heard from him once since all this happened. He told my W that they love her no matter what and when she relayed this to me in December she was starting to get teary eyed. I think she was upset that her F didn't have the backbone to tell her she screwed up. Or maybe she was getting teary eyed because her F loves her so much regardless of what she did? I dunno.
Hope you're right on #1 and #2. Seems like her big hangup was our intimacy dying off. Not sure how to fix that.
Sorry again for the threads getting so blurred
Have a good night!
I'll go find your thread!
and b/c I felt "owed" by h
Owed? What do you feel H owed you, 25?
You're a prolific writer to be sure. It's a good thing, but have you considered writing for fun? Just asking.
As for the behavior of your H - the others have mentioned it, but just to reiterate - he's both guilty and giddy judging by his actions. And that gives way to anger for the third side of the wobbly wheel.
If you think he's angry, bitter and ugly now... just hang on a bit. He'll be vying for man of the year shortly (in his mind) by putting you down and dragging anything and everything out that occurred over the last 35 years. And even a few things that did not. There are no rules, but that seems to be fairly normal if you go by what I've seen over the years.
It's not rational. You're a lawyer. You know what kind of person you cannot negotiate with? Guess away, but it's the irrational type (in case you get stuck).
25, you are not superhuman. You will feel this for a while to come. Don't be surprised and don't be angry at yourself for it. And don't be surprised if he goes through similar in his own weird way.
When you deal with him, deal with him like he's somebody else. Be objective and not subjective or emotional. That's really a lot harder than it sounds, 25. But his emotions will get the better of him over time - it's how the law is structured.
There will be time for the other items later as well. In the meantime, limit the amount of time you allow yourself to deal with the warfare to no more than a few hours each day. No more. Less if you can. Contiguous time. The rest of the time? Try things until you find the ones that allow you to actually relax and recharge. That's your primary objective right now - to find things that help you relax (non-personally-destructive things).
Take care of that first.
AJM
3 "Pearls of Wisdom" I learned in the past few days --
1) "Don't put a rational spin on irrational behavior" which i took to mean, stop trying to wrap your logical or strategic brain around someone who is acting on emotion or an irrational belief or some unseen unknowable plan.
I already wasted time asking how my h cannot regret - so much-
Bottom line is, HE DOESN'T REGRET IT. While I can think that is "so wrong" - that is that. Still true.
2) I heard that certain fish will die if they stop moving.
They have some sort of "ventilation breathing" that means they have to keep moving, or they'll die.
I feel like if we stop to wallow in our sense of loss and grief, We'll be paralyzed.
Forward motion is mandatory, and to me, forward motion = GAL, mostly.
3) Stop mourning a future that wasn't likely to happen, anyway.
It's my time machine analogy. (Technically I'm the WAS but let's just say I'm the LBSer for the sake of clarity and discussion.)
So, the LBSer mourns the loss of what the marriage was, in the past. (And that is if we are lucky enough to have had that type of closeness for real. Some never do, some marriages were in a constant state of "maybe it'll get better later").
I'm lucky in this sense, b/c I know we had a solid loving marriage, we were in love, and made a good team, for many years. I do miss that, but it's gone. I also miss my deceased parents very much. But They're not coming back.
I have no time machine to go back.
OR we want the TIME MACHINE that makes us mourn the loss of a marriage we hoped for, later...a future where all would be well, or all the goals would be reached and
THEN we could be happy /spend time together, be financially secure / be romantic/ speak in each other's love languages, stop fighting & magically have solved all problems.
In the last decade I've hoped my Dbing and love (and yeah, my sacrifices) would all be worth it, that we'd return to what we once had Or that h would appreciate my loyalty and love and remember what a great catch I am. Well, if he did, it didn't last long...or his mother's cancer derailed our piecing path...
In reality, I now see that I mourned the loss of a future that was not likely to happen with this man, anyhow.
As it relates to the future, I mourned something that isn't real.
As it relates to now and how h is behaving - I would not date this man...he's not honest and he lacks empathy. His legal divorce behaviors have been needlessly aggressive and offensive. Not a great strategy, btw.
Okay I'm off to bed in a few.
Just thought I'd journal and vent here. Thanks for listening.
AJM
I will respond to your post more completely soon. (Sort of did in my "pearls")
"OWED" I was quoting someone else actually. But I do think if I'm really honest
subconsciously I may have felt H would be happy, loyal and grateful for the love I had shown him to recon with him 10 years ago. I let go of a lot of his MLC behavior...I forgave. In hindsight, a part of me feels like the reward for turning the other cheek was getting slapped on the other cheek.
(I'm not sure I'm defending this belief, just admitting a part of me feels this way.)
Yes, I'm surprised by h's behavior. I thought he'd begin with indignation at spousal support but that his L would "splain" to him that it's a 35 year marriage and this is the law, etc. To quit this GREAT JOB just to avoid paying me...I mean, WOW...this is a workaholic MD...then again, maybe with the new OW he feels like relaxing more...
But I'll work on NOT being surprised. I have a few items in the back of my mind that I think he'll throw at me, and it'll be like mutually assured destruction. Considering that he believes I can make "easily more than he earns",
now, you'd think he would not sign off on public documents that are not always easy to seal. I mean, that kind of ruins my chances of that massive income.
But why should I think that he'll think things out first? He's angry at me (yes I think that is so ironic) and anger and fear are his primary motivators now.
Actually they have been his primary motivators (seething privately and accumulating his grievances for a long time; wanting to get buy in from his peeps who know me, and to justify to whomever he expected resistance from. He can't get it from the kids b/c you know, they were there). Anyhow, as for his fears and anger motivating him now, yeah, they have motivated him a long time, but i just didn't know this.
Fast steep learning curve for me, but I'll get there. I believe the judge has seen this stuff before. I mean, let's hope. You can never really predict. But so far, so good.
YES when this "Vacation" in CA for my evaluation is done, I will take it easy for a bit. And I'll see my older kids soon, which is a gift, however feebly wrapped.
Of course many WAS's or MLCers ( or crappy spouses or whatever label we choose, b/c honestly I don't know what label fits h anymore. )
I have a label, but it starts with C and gets censored quite often.
25mlc:
You hit it out of the park. I will need to read and reread your post to get a full grasp of it.
Not to break protocol - I should not be talking to much about my situation on your thread so I'll give you all the highlights.
The reason I'm here is to rebuild my MR. Like the bumper sticker says be patient - God is not done with me yet.
It's a long road ahead and I own my issues and they will be taken care of no matter what happens with W.
As you stated (so well) many of us have all let our spouses issues crash intro our lives and visa versa. This has caused heartache and marital breakdown. Those bad interactions became a habit - and it only takes one to break that habit.
I don't have a scorecard per se, as part of this process I have been brought to my knees, many times, as I realize what a mess my MR is.
I won't drone on.
Look for updates on my thread.
25, I think the judge has seen this stuff before. I sometimes wonder how they do it. The question is how they'll react, really. I think they gather the data points over time, rather than do anything immediately. That means inconveniences while they try to be fair. At the end of it all they follow the law and leave the rest. That translates into you being harassed until the final outcome. As long as the judge follows the law, you will be ok. It's a predictable outcome.
Since you know he is motivated by fear and emotion, it actually makes things a little easier when you drop the expectations. When you drop the expectations that he'll be rational, or that you want some sort of reconciliation (of any kind). Until then, it's a bit of a roller coaster.
I understand what you mean with him 'owing' you. I get it. It's not unreasonable in many ways. Forgiveness rarely works like that. Business transactions do. They won't with him while he is in this state.
I don't think you should be so hard on yourself (bigybiz you should not either) - giving and blending is what a marriage is about. And over 35 years, it's very normal.
Everything was fine. Until it wasn't, right? To your point about the time portal? You can't go back (and in time you won't want to most likely). But you can deal with the here and now and what is. This will take time to play out in the courts, but it will play out. It's finite. Don't get tired of it, and don't get manipulated - he'll try both. But he's got a lot more energy around getting this done "his way" and it won't be in your best interest. That's to be expected. But you can outlast him and nice him to pieces.
By being nice and reasonable, you're setting the tone. By letting him run like a crazy man, complain, slander, etc. he expends energy. Let him. The judge and the lawyers will see soon enough what's going on. And if you're patient and kind and reasonable, you'll find they will work for you.
In my own case, my ex was bitter and mean and vindictive. Go figure right? By the end of things she was so impatient to 'move on' with her life, that even my lawyer wrote that into the offers. She wrote in that it would 'free her to move on and enjoy her new life.' Her lawyer helped me out on more than one occasion, although within the boundaries of the law. Nothing unethical.
Patience and kindness will be good for you in other ways as well. This kind of thing can affect your health if you're not careful and actively working to prevent that. I learned that the hard way (nothing too serious; caught early enough and made the changes needed).
I wish you the best 25!
Peace,
AJM
25, I think the judge has seen this stuff before. I sometimes wonder how they do it. The question is how they'll react, really. I think they gather the data points over time, rather than do anything immediately. That means inconveniences while they try to be fair. At the end of it all they follow the law and leave the rest. That translates into you being harassed until the final outcome. As long as the judge follows the law, you will be ok. It's a predictable outcome.
There's a wrinkle in the law that is silent on a specific issue h is raising, although most of the law seems to go my way. Meanwhile it's very hard to make plans financially. I think honestly, going to court to hold him in contempt (he's violated court orders from late January on) and now "retiring" is the only way he will comply. I hate going that route but he once said "there will be war" if I tried to get more than the minimum.
Since he's already furious, I'm not quite sure (and hate jinxing myself) how I be hurt more financially. The flaunting of the OW was the week after the wage garnishment and a week later, he quit.
SIGH...this is actually worse than I expected it to be which is saying a lot. It scares me actually. In that sense, I am motivated by fear, aren't i?
Since you know he is motivated by fear and emotion, it actually makes things a little easier when you drop the expectations. When you drop the expectations that he'll be rational, or that you want some sort of reconciliation (of any kind). Until then, it's a bit of a roller coaster.
I have no expectations of him trying to reconcile with me.
He MAY have those unspoken "if I have to, I can get 25 back down the road"....
I have hopes he will try to repair his r's with the kids. Not soon, b/c they are upset. And I KNOW they will never see him the same way. I know this. How can they?
But I have no control over that...and frankly, a part of me hates that he wants them to "BLEND IN NOW" as if I've been replaced b/c HE is SO HAPPY (except for the divorce part of his life. And the job he quit I guess. And His own L says he's hard to reach, seems disorganized and scattered in thought, and the only thing h focuses on is how he hates to pay me anything)....
Do i think he's gone off the deep end? Yes. Do I care why he's being so $hitty to me?
Not that much, as I am in survival mode.
Not that much. I'm in survival mode now.
I understand what you mean with him 'owing' you. I get it. It's not unreasonable in many ways. Forgiveness rarely works like that. Business transactions do. They won't with him while he is in this state.
I thought my loyalty would be appreciated and returned, more than that he "owed" me. I was wrong. To the extent h feels remorse of shame (which is not a lot) h converts it into blame. So it's almost impossible for him to feel he owes anyone.
The one time he admitted feeling he owed someone it was his brother, for doing most of the end of life care for their mom. You know how h paid his brother back? By adding him to our life insurance policy and decreasing MY amount.
Nice...he "pays" his brother by taking from me. And would not face it till after h dies. God what a coward he is, and what a red flag I should have noticed faster.
I don't think you should be so hard on yourself (bigybiz you should not either) - giving and blending is what a marriage is about. And over 35 years, it's very normal.
Everything was fine. Until it wasn't, right? To your point about the time portal? You can't go back (and in time you won't want to most likely). But you can deal with the here and now and what is. This will take time to play out in the courts, but it will play out. It's finite.
Don't get tired of it, and don't get manipulated - he'll try both. But he's got a lot more energy around getting this done "his way" and it won't be in your best interest. That's to be expected. But you can outlast him and nice him to pieces.
See, I THOUGHT that being kind and fair would help me. I've been very fair and unemotional when it comes to our dealings (at least in my eyes and the 3 other L's I check in with).
But he's still mad as he11 and pulling out all the stops. (Oh the irony). I have talked to the other L's in my family and they are saying "h is already in contempt of court. Why not drag him back in? He's being cruel to you and CHEAP and acting on fear and etc/// They are probably right...
By being nice and reasonable, you're setting the tone.
well we are in NC and only go thru the L's. I say nothing on FB and don't bad mouth him to his peeps or family and am calm as I can manage...
By letting him run like a crazy man, complain, slander, etc. he expends energy. Let him. The judge and the lawyers will see soon enough what's going on. And if you're patient and kind and reasonable, you'll find they will work for you.
I'll definitely be calm in court. And with this expert on Friday (wish me luck and send prayers please!)
In my own case, my ex was bitter and mean and vindictive. Go figure right? By the end of things she was so impatient to 'move on' with her life, that even my lawyer wrote that into the offers.
H has an OW and maybe that will work to my advantage, as gross as it is...God AJM, a part of me hates him...like maybe for real. OKAY I know...detach and shake my head.
I also feel pity for him. Wreckage and a facade and I Don't THINK I'm kidding myself. Maybe...but he's so inauthentic now. Goofy over the top posts about happy happy and no contact with our children...wtf?
She wrote in that it would 'free her to move on and enjoy her new life.' Her lawyer helped me out on more than one occasion, although within the boundaries of the law. Nothing unethical.
Patience and kindness will be good for you in other ways as well. This kind of thing can affect your health if you're not careful and actively working to prevent that. I learned that the hard way (nothing too serious; caught early enough and made the changes needed).
As you may know, I was hospitalized in October with sudden onset seizures grand mal (you know, the sexy kind). It was a big deal and changed my life short term.
But I'm healing.
Thanks for hanging in there with me...
Did your wife ever express to anyone, some regret?
I think there's a very good chance that h will go to his grave shaking his fist at me for "stealing his money" and whatever else he's mad at me for, then...
I wish you the best 25!
Peace,
AJM
I appreciate it
((( )))
25--This is where I think it might help you to treat him as though he is NPD and try to strategize how you can get what you want while making him feel grand in the process. I worry if you go for contempt that will be the ultimate calling out of his behavior and he may try to make you pay in some other way. Once I started treating mine as if, regardless of whether he is, the paybacks I was experiencing came to a screeching halt.
Just throwing this out there, did you ever consider filing for legal separation and tying up the financials without filing for divorce? They really hate it when you file for divorce. Could you convert the D to such a separation? He could fight it or later convert it, which would make him feel he was getting what he wanted, that he was the one divorcing you rather than the other way around. Of course I have no idea how far down the road you are. I just hate to see this crap he is pulling with you. I think if he had the semblance of control he might knock this crap off.
25--This is where I think it might help you to treat him as though he is NPD and try to strategize how you can get what you want while making him feel grand in the process. I worry if you go for contempt that will be the ultimate calling out of his behavior and he may try to make you pay in some other way.
I hear what you're saying. That's why I began this so reasonably and took precautions against embarrassing him at all (had to serve him at work since I had no address for him but I scheduled it so no patients would be there).
But if he's already refusing to comply with court orders, AND has filed motions to decrease the support that he's already not paying...I mean, my fear is that he's going to deplete the nest egg b/c he's 60 and I'm not...he's not supposed to, but so what?
Court orders have thus far meant nothing to him.
Once I started treating mine as if, regardless of whether he is, the paybacks I was experiencing came to a screeching halt.
Just throwing this out there, did you ever consider filing for legal separation and tying up the financials without filing for divorce?
Yes, and I filed for sep in 2006, partly b/c of yet another secret trip to Alaska, and to protect asses from his "investing" up there.
Don't forget that h retrieved me from the hospital back east, and then left me alone in California. I was in a fog, he was in a hurry to get back to the tundra.
Our s30 drove up to check on me and I was in such a fog. And then I realized h had cut off my access to funds. I had $700 in my bank account and got radio silence from h when I texted and called to ask. I could not drive, could not bathe or swim without supervision.
H asked me to sign some form of waiver of rights that in my fog, I signed. He was on his way out the door to the cab. In my right mind there's no way in he11 I'd sign something like that if I were not then impaired, which h, the MD, knew.
My siblings were appalled and urged me to seek counsel. So I did, the next day. It sure looked like h was going to file up in Alaska or simply drop out of sight financially. Or send me an "allowance" now and then...if he felt it was justified. I specifically asked and he ignored my requests.
Own, for the first time in my life I could not care for myself. It's mortifying to admit but it's simply true. The seizures and meds took a toll on my mental faculties for awhile. I'm a lot better now. But I lost several weeks back then and I just thank God for my family flying out to help me pack, and drive me cross country in a van.
I prayed and talked it out and simply felt I was in an impossible situation. I think h practically dared me to file. And you know, I'm not sure H would ever have filed if it were up to him BUT he might have
and the law up there would have been crazy for me, and inappropriate.
I could never live up to his expectations (be a US senator) and he was furious at me for ....I guess being needy and not agreeing to move up there, again...and then there was OW who made it so much easier.
The risks were too high not to file, and h gave every indication I could not rely on him for anything...
They really hate it when you file for divorce. Could you convert the D to such a separation? He could fight it or later convert it, which would make him feel he was getting what he wanted, that he was the one divorcing you rather than the other way around. Of course I have no idea how far down the road you are. I just hate to see this crap he is pulling with you. I think if he had the semblance of control he might knock this crap off.
I hear what you are saying. But we are too far gone for that. Besides I think h probably wants to marry OW. He's "in a relationship" with her on FB so I don't see how he'd go back to a sep, since he pretends we are already divorced.
He shows nothing but contempt for me in his pleadings and his public behavior.
And Own, I do want to move on. I need to make plans for my own professional future and someday dating. And I don't want to be married when I begin dating.
H has streaks of narcissism in him now, clearly. I think it was your link to the behaviors and he has about 7 of the 10, though the history of our marriage was different/better.
SMH...and going to sleep.
Nice "trip" to California in the morning...at least I'll see my kids!
25--this man is so despicable and malignant. Try reading some about malignant narcissists and Sam Vaknin. You may find it enligtening. I hope California goes well.
thank you Own, there is a formula for his paying, but he's quit...
now says I never helped him in his career in 35 years of marriage, working AT the same hospital, being named in his Officer evaluations as a factor in his favor and giving free seminars to his colleagues AND AND AND raising our kids...
SCOFFING...how can he say this with a straight face. Judge has to have heard this before...
I mean, he's pulling out all the stops. What a mean, bad dishonest person he is to me.
What a disappointment.
Prayers welcome
((( )))
It's amazing what the WAS's will spew to anyone who will listen.
You didn't support him in 35 years? How come he didn't leave 34 years ago?
Mine blamed me for the snow coming this weekend that will force us to move D's bday party from a local park to a bowling alley.
25, have you shared your insurance policy story with your lawyer?
I hate to say this but in a way, you are building a case against him to protect your future. Anything that would show how unfair and cheap he has been toward you could help your case.. you are, in your h' s story, , irrelevant.. but were you for the past 35 years? I don' t think so..
Sorry i need to re-phrase. In your h' s mind.. not story..
Exquisite is right. You're building a case. And your H will help with that. I'm surprised the judge allowed you to be married and yet your h is allowed to cut you off from the marital assets. That's a little odd and maybe something else to talk with the L's about. Perhaps something until the divorce is finalized, even if he's ignoring the court orders. That ignoring the orders will eventually catch up to him.
That's what I mean when I say to let that fish run. Keep the pressure on, but don't get nasty about it. Fair and balanced. Since it's a negotiation, you may want to reach a little further than you think you'll be able to reasonably do long term. Freezing his assets doesn't sound unreasonable if it's a possibility. Collections are always a problem in civil cases. I think you're aware.
He says he's happy? Really? Seems par for the course, right? I mean, he's saying what a wonderful person he has been. How he's endured you for 35 years while you sat back and enjoyed the spoils of his hard work (I say that sarcastically even if it's hard to see in the writing.) He may feel 'Happy' now that things are out in the open. A relief of sorts that he's 'free' in his mind. He's not, but that's another matter. My ex did similar. In my case I made it so she would have to file. Why? Because of the kids and because I knew how impatient she was, although I didn't know exactly why. I don't know that I'll ever really know the why in my case. I don't really care to at this point. It's been a lot of years and I've gained the perspective to really see what was happening and the timelines.
In my case, she was the type that would have likely brought violence to 'solve her problem' if she could have met the right people. She once tried to have me beat up by one of her friends if that's any indication
I'm a little smarter than that. He and I are acquaintances now and occasionally drink together. She was infuriated by that
That's the mindset, 25. They have to get away so badly, that facts and history are not really relevant. It's one reason I think they forget what they did or said. It was a lie to themselves at the time, so why remember it?
Did your wife ever express to anyone, some regret?
I think there's a very good chance that h will go to his grave shaking his fist at me for "stealing his money" and whatever else he's mad at me for, then...
You can't guess the future but I hear you. No, my ex never expressed remorse. She did once say that 'she never said she never loved me' for the 20 years. Very vehement about that. She also went out of her way to tell me she's glad she had the affair etc. when I wouldn't give her what she wanted. She'll likely be shaking her fist at me when she dies as well. Or she'll forget altogether. I can't see the future either, so I really don't know. But it seems a reasonable guess at this point.
My kids are grown now. One about to graduate college and one in the middle of college. I have no reason nor desire to talk to her at this point and have not for a long time. It's why I no longer spend much time on the boards. I knew you back from some others that I keep in touch with, and came back to listen and offer some insights I'm familiar with in the hope of being helpful.
Sorry to hear about the seizures, 25, but glad you're doing better. I'm surprised you don't have his medical license reviewed for getting you to sign papers in that state of mind. That's the most unethical thing he could have done at this point, professionally. My ex is a doctor as well (dentist really) and believe me, I would have pulled that card if the situation were available. I was an email away from filing harassment charges against her and OM. I'm kind of lazy about doing that, although I was advised several times to do it. I kept the emails though - just in case. I live on the east coast in a state with CCA laws and don't want to get caught up in ex drama over it. So I'm very cautious and learned throughout to keep careful notes and document the behavior. That, and it was amusing to see some of the stuff in her state of mind
Oh. She did go out of her way to vilify me to her family and my kids. My daughter bought into it and won't talk to me except to ask for money or tell me what a bad father I am. I am saddened by that but I did work hard to reconnect the kids with their mother; I can't stand the thought of my kids growing up without a mother that cares for them. Or at least acts like she does. But most people haven't bought into it, including my son and ex's family and friends, etc. They see the BS. Yours will as well.
Peace,
AJM
Back from the gross divorce crap (I think "GDC" may be my new acronym for that. )
Anyhow lots to process. Conflicting emotions, mixed emotions.
*Not wanting to get stuck in the suffering of it all.
*Yet I replay a lot of our past now, wondering what was real and what I should have seen sooner or done differently.
*We are all supposed to learn from our mistakes.
But we are not supposed to ruminate needlessly or wallow in pain. That prevents our forward motion.
*We have to keep moving forward...like those sharks that breathe with movement or die if they stay still.
And yet...
IRONY - a year ago my h and I were interviewed about our marriage and the election. We did not agree on the candidate, though we have(had?) several beliefs in common.
We were in a national newspaper and then on national television. Our relationship was documented!
"in a solid marriage that has survived poverty, multiple degrees, deployments, childrearing..."
and on TV "after 35 years of a wonderful marriage, the 25's find themselves in conflict about this election..." (I might not have said a 'wonderful m' but still)
It was a tongue in cheek piece, it was funny and we had a great time. H said it was "one of the best things we've ever done. We're a great team." Lots of hugs and laughs.
Folks, the election is NOT why we are divorcing. But that^^ marriage, the one in which h said we were a great team, is the marriage I was in.
Either everything he nows says is BS or what he said then was BS, or I don't know...
*how much matters now? I want to learn from this, so a part of me says "a lot!"
*Another part says "25, in reality your h may not know the truth. Even if he does, he may not be able to explain why...or when something changed and he surely won't admit he should have been honest..."
*So What can you DO about it?
And the only answer that is coming to me today, is "change."
I think we have to change to get through our pain. If our story of loss doesn't change
and we keep repeating ourselves (trust me, I've been there)
then we are getting stuck. And I do not want to be stuck in pain.
*So that's what I know.
AJM
I don't want to hurt h's career. One of the reasons for that is purely selfish, the other reason is b/c I detest looking vindictive & don't want to have regrets related to anger.
Plus, I think h's behavior speaks for itself. So do his fb's posts. Much will come out in the pleadings I suspect.
Either he will be haunted by the damage he has done to our marriage, me, and our family/children, or he won't. Guilt, remorse, shame, missing me OR and our family or at least our son...will show themselves, or they won't.
I don't think you can inflict that much pain on people who love you, unscathed.
OR you can...
If h is literally incapable of empathy or remorse, then in my head, I know we are better off without him. My guess is that he'll continue to work on his R with S, and will stay in financial contact with d19 b/c she needs her tuition...(that's according to her, not h. She says she expects never to talk to him again after college. That is sad and not victorious to me. Just sad).
I do have the regret that this past weekend, I did not defend my h to my adult children and in fact, I b1tched about him.
I'm not proud of that. The Gross Div Crap I went through on Friday (kids came up Friday night) was exceedingly disturbing.
A bit humiliating but mostly infuriating...and then I saw the kids and yes, I vented...
sigh...
I also told them I am torn between wanting to be authentic with them b/c that's important to me in this life,
and wanting to protect them and to be above this type of discourse.
But s30 and d28 are grown...and now I'm justifying doing something i don't believe in, which is bad mouthing the other parent.
Damn. I regret this^^. Worse, S30 may have to testify at our hearing.
Ugh
No one is perfect, 25. We all make mistakes, it's hard not to when hit with some intense emotions.
Learn from your mistakes and do your best to not repeat them.
25, your children are not little ones anymore. They know you are hurt, they are to but believe me, your H' s actions and your anger is totally comprehensible. Don' t beat yourself up. On your next visit with them, you can apologize for your venting. They will understand and I am sure hey have their personal opinion of the man he is AT THIS SPECIFIC MOMENT!!! Stay strong and humble. You are doing great!!
I agree with the others, 25. You'd be the first one to line up to any of us with the reminder that we all mess up, but have to get back on that horse.
Try not to be so hard on yourself. You knew it was going to be a sucky weekend (beside getting to see the kids) anyway. How does one prepare their heart for more pain? I don't think we can. We just have to lean into it and come out the other side. Your kids KNOW. Maybe it wasn't your finest moment, but hey, cut yourself some slack. You are a well-loved, classy lady. Never forget.
Oh 25! I missed that you were back here because I never come to Newcomers. Plus I've been going through some big time dating drama of my own in April. You'll find me lurking on Surviving the Big D.
Your story is sadly similar to mine - reconciliation followed by a repeat 10 years later. Narcissist husband (something I only truly recognized after the divorce.)
I have always tried not to badmouth my ex, but my kids are not stupid, and his behavior with them since the divorce has gradually eroded their relationships with them. Again, as a narcissist, he could not understand any of their mental health issues, or anything that didn't reflect well on HIM (as a narcissist, their value lies in how they make HIM look). I try to avoid badmouthing him while still trying not to invalidate their very real feelings about him. One son has not spoken to him in a year and a half.
Too bad you are not still here in California, I'd take you out for a (virgin for you) margarita.
I'm sorry he's being such a jerk in the divorce but judges do not look kindly upon guys who suddenly resign their jobs while going through a divorce (especially after he moved up there specifically to work). Have you considered hiring a P.I. in Alaska to see if he's working under the table somewhere? That might be worth spending a little money to check out.
Also, if you think he was hiding some significant money before, a forensic accountant might be in order.
I know you're still in the painful part of this, but know the following:
- it's delightful not having to walk on eggshells around a moody narcissist anymore.
- every man I have dated since my ex thought I was fantastic and couldn't understand what my ex was thinking.
- I have a lot more time in my life for other things without my ex in it. (Btw I just got my first official recording credit, playing Vibraphone and glockenspiel on my professional musician friend's new album - little ole amateur me playing with big-time serious professional musicians! Something that would never have happened without my divorce.)
- I LOVE having total control over my finances, without my ex's impulsive financial moves. And even though my income with alimony is less than half of his, I get the feeling my finances are in better order than his. Check out the Mr Money Mustache website for some inspiration.
- My career and newfound musical hobby life have flourished since the divorce.
- Since the breakup of my marriage, little things - or even big things like the current dating implosion disaster on my thread - seem like small potatoes in comparison. I feel kinda invincible - like the worst has already happened, that thing I tried so hard to prevent, the breakup of my marriage - and I survived and thrived, so anything else that comes up just looks totally surmountable.
I know it's hard to look ahead when you're still embroiled in the divorce stuff, but how about making yourself a vision board? Put all the nice things and experiences you want to pursue in your life on it.
(A few years after my divorce, I found a list I'd made - an exercise in a self-help book - listing 100 things I'd like to do in my life. This was made years before the divorce. One of the things I'd put on the list - I swear I don't even remember thinking this at the time - was to play in a band. And here I was 5 years later, having learned to play the drums after my divorce, playing in a pop-punk band and touring playing glockenspiel and percussion with my professional singer-songwriter friend. So but some BIG dreams on that vision board - you never know what will come of it!)
And I meant to say, here I was 15 years later playing in a band.
Good advice! All of it. And yes, 25, don't be so hard on yourself. I tried incredibly hard to never bad mouth my ex. I've slipped once or twice. I can count on one hand the number, but I still have a few times over the years. It makes you human and a family to share in some of the highs and lows of your feelings.
That said, I think you have a task forming. The task is to find healthier ways (for YOU) to get those feelings expressed. Talk to a friend, post here, get a volleyball and paint a face on it, or whatever actually works for YOU. You'll have to try some things and be flexible, but you can figure it out. Do not think that you're superhuman. You will have time you'll need to get expressive. I know I still do after all these years, but they do come farther apart then ever before.
I am so much happier now than I was then and in the couple of years leading up to that time in my life. You will be too. It just takes some time, especially while you're on the roller coaster with the courts involved. Part of that is because he will actively try to push your buttons. There's no telling how long it will be before he stops trying so hard to 'punish' you.
A thought: I'm reminded of a story attributed to Buddha. I'm not a Buddhist, but it makes sense to me. The story goes like this, "Buddha was walking down the street when a man approached him. The man hurled insults at him and told him, 'you have no right to tell others what to do. You're just like us!' He was clearly angry. Buddha turned to him and said, 'let me ask you a question. If you give a gift to somebody and they do not accept it, who owns it?' The man was stunned, but still angry and he sarcastically replied, 'I do!' Buddha smiled and said, 'that's correct. And just like a gift, if I do not accept your anger, you still own it.'"
You don't have to accept his anger. You don't have to give it back either. You only need to deal with your own hurt and feelings, both because of him and because of yourself.
On the latter, I suggest you be much more objective and see it how others see your choices. I know you'll replay them at some point, but I hope you don't linger too long. I think you're a special person that has made some hard choices over the years. A person with a great deal of integrity and class. A very smart person with those attributes to be sure. Don't let a point in time keep you down.
Peace,
AJM
Oh 25! I missed that you were back here because I never come to Newcomers. Plus I've been going through some big time dating drama of my own in April. You'll find me lurking on Surviving the Big D.
Your story is sadly similar to mine - reconciliation followed by a repeat 10 years later.
Narcissist husband (something I only truly recognized after the divorce.)
Much as I resist labels that over simplify our situations, I have read a lot about narcissism lately when so many people have suggested it. Out of maybe 10 symptoms, I'd say h shows 7... SMH It seems to apply.
and no, I would not have said that 10 years ago. I tend to think IF it's really what he is, I find that h either morphed into one or somehow I really missed a lot of behaviors.
Plus the internal moral ? struggle h showed a decade ago, indicated some internal conflicts.
THIS new episode and the lies and deceit are so much more than I knew --- geez, I don't know the words. Surprising and $hitty and I find myself incredulous over and over.
Like he continues to disappoint me. (How is that possible?)
I have always tried not to badmouth my ex, but my kids are not stupid, and his behavior with them since the divorce has gradually eroded their relationships with them.
Oh wow....well, once upon a time h was nourished when he came home to the kids who ran up to him happy to see him. He'd get on the floor and play with d28 and was very into our son. That was a very happy time for me/us. I mean, I know this. H would weigh s30 on a scale to mark his growth. God we were close then...
I don't know what is in his head now. His interactions with the 2 older ones has now been strained. He asked s30 to go to Mexico with OW, and S30's/ his gf to "meet the family" = my FIL and BIL, people I have known 2/3 of my life (ouch).
But when s30 said it was too soon, H blurted out "why don't you just say what you mean?!!"
S30 said "I just did"...this was early Feb and no contact since...
For our older d, H sent a group text and photos of snow in a darkish place and he included d28 in the group text. It was about the lovely snow...then one of the group members in his new fan base, asked "how the jewelry went over..."
D28 was silent and later, h sent out unrelated texts to her to probe and build rapport or whatever. NOT to address the pain it must have caused or even the awkwardness.
So after 2 days she sent a Group text back, saying she hoped he could "finally be happy now that he got everything he wanted but kept seething resentments to himself for all those years. She said she "hoped the jewelry was expensive b/c he has a lot of catching up to do for his new narrative and PS she didn't care about the snow."
No contact since then... (Yeah, I did like her text back to the fan group).
But when I vented about the $hit I was being put through - They vented back with me and no one defended him. But they told me things that make me think I'm nuts.
I mean, it's like the past is gas lighting me. WTF was real??
Again, as a narcissist, he could not understand any of their mental health issues, or anything that didn't reflect well on HIM (as a narcissist, their value lies in how they make HIM look).
Yes I see that. ^^ Our youngest child is d19, and she is gay and "non binary". That is a term that means sort of transgendered (as I understand that term. No reassignment surgery planned).
I suspect this^^ does not reflect well on h, in h's mind.
He left the first time when she was only 8...and s30 says that "of course after dad raised a SON, it was okay to leave the d's behind..." I'm not saying he "made her" gay.
I'm saying that deep down I believe that if the girls had been boys, God help me I now think h might have stuck around more. Idiot. Nice message.
Oh and H sent his cell phone to d19 (b/c hers broke). On his cell he did not erase any of his old texts (!!)
and of course there were some texts about her and his desire to "not invest anymore in her" and wanted to "throw in the towel" with her. Nice message there too. She's in therapy as am I, and my d28. S30 says he has people he confides in with his problems lof late.
So we are all in therapy except for h...yeah I did just laugh out loud.
There were also texts about his big plans for getting money up in Alaska so I'll get to use them in court but even as I type that, I feel sick about it. He was SO dishonest to me and about me. Unbelievable...what a terrible thing to do to me.
I did not expect him to be such an a$$. Like I said, he keeps disappointing me.
How does he think the kids will see him? And he was close to a lot of my family...will that ever matter?
You know, his own dad screwed his mom over in their divorce (the first of my FIL's 4 marriages)...so the bar is low. H must feel he's much better and ignores that his mom worked 2 jobs and smoked non stop, only to die 3 years after her retirement. FIL invested wisely and made a fortune so he and his 4th wife have a good life. Of course FIL is not close to his sons (but thinks he is!) and our kids fear him...and my step Mil is a great woman whom I miss...she was a widow with a lovely woman and FIL doesn't get along with any of them. I suspect/know she regrets marrying him but they are now 80...
And I think in h's mind, since we visited his dad twice a year (he has nice homes and lives in glorious places), maybe h thinks it does not matter how you treat family as long as they have money later in life...yet I also know h has very mixed emotions about his dad.
Which he does NOT address...I mean, some deep resentments and also a desire to make his dad proud or to compete. Who knows?? I'm tired of trying to be in another person's mind, especially when all the answers are things HE could seek, and which are not in my sandbox. SORRY FOR RAMBLING...
Oh back to my d19 upon getting h's cell phone and all his critical texts about her,
her response to getting these texts on his phone, was to say "I knew he never loved me".
Heartbreaking...ugh
I try to avoid badmouthing him while still trying not to invalidate their very real feelings about him.
One son has not spoken to him in a year and a half.
OMG! KML that makes me so sad and i must ask, what your h thinks of that...
Too bad you are not still here in California, I'd take you out for a (virgin for you) margarita.
Oh, I'll be heading back west soon, for 1) this summer for the Gross Div Crap and
2) down the road, I would like to be closer to my kids. So at some point I think I'll end up there. Probably east of LA so I can afford it.
My job search that I now must begin, will take me...somewhere...
Oh but More importantly, I'm able to have A glass of wine now, as long as I time my meds.
But until I'm weaned off these meds -planned for 18 months from now (1/4 of the way there) I'll have to watch it. But man, if there was ever a time to drink, it's NOW.
I'll take you up on the offer. There are several DBers in southern California if that's your locale.
I'm sorry he's being such a jerk in the divorce but judges do not look kindly upon guys who suddenly resign their jobs while going through a divorce (especially after he moved up there specifically to work).
Have you considered hiring a P.I. in Alaska to see if he's working under the table somewhere? That might be worth spending a little money to check out.
I'm planning on it but I am low on funds, which h must know. I'll have to borrow for it. H's probably using marital assets to pay his legal bills AND his huge salary.
I'm amazed he thought dividing his military pension would be fair and fine for me (it's about 1/9 of his salary up there). Like he would have had an MD without me. Our son was 8 weeks old when h began med school, which was a career change for him.
Anyhow, what a jerk. So I hope my L's are on top of this.
So far they've gotten good results in COURT but it's a whole other thing to get the money in my account. For the record, if he's not working at all, this will be the first time in our m that he is unemployed. In med school the Army paid him a stipend and benefits. There's no way he's sitting on his a$$ in OW's place just...doing what? fishing?
That sounds super attractive for her...an unemployed 60 y/o MD? I mean, I don't know. But I do think he's working now OR will be soon OR someone is sponsoring him...
he cannot retire. Now I have texts to prove he sure intended to...
So, How much is the loss of love/respect of our children and the eraser of our marital history worth it to h?
Evidently a lot. OR he's in denial about it. I read WAS/MLCer who returned, saying he just put that in the back of his mind and would tell himself that "5 years later I'll pick up the pieces" and that he "deserved to be HAPPY" etc...
The last part about h being SO HAPPY, rings true for my situation. H has an affect at times that the kids find very weird and a sign of mental illness.
I'm not sure of all that but I concur about the affect he can take. Like he's playing a role and will ACT happy or as if he really cares about someone's comments and all I can say is that recently it got weirder...harder to hide.
BTW h's dad will leave h millions...so the irony is that h has so many fears about money but his constantly chasing the almighty dollar has cost him AND us, a fortune. Fool.
Learns nothing from his mistakes...except to make them someone else's...
Also, if you think he was hiding some significant money before, a forensic accountant might be in order.
Indeed...same money issues for me, but obviously worth doing in the long run. it's really a cash flow issue. There is a court order he has not complied with and YES I have told my L's to pursue contempt charges. NOT to punish - but b/c in the long run, taking him back to court will SAVE me money. I know you're still in the painful part of this, but know the following:
- it's delightful not having to walk on eggshells around a moody narcissist anymore.
- every man I have dated since my ex thought I was fantastic and couldn't understand what my ex was thinking.
- I have a lot more time in my life for other things without my ex in it. (Btw I just got my first official recording credit, playing Vibraphone and glockenspiel on my professional musician friend's new album - little ole amateur me playing with big-time serious professional musicians!
Something that would never have happened without my divorce.)
Beauty! Well done and yes it helps. I want to live and work overseas. I'd have had to do logistical gymnastics to get h over there for any length of time. It was always OUR dream but then it was always only h's dream to get back to Alaska and I don't know how I'd have fit into that.
His OW is from there. Great. NOW he can be happy...finally... - I LOVE having total control over my finances, without my ex's impulsive financial moves. And even though my income with alimony is less than half of his, I get the feeling my finances are in better order than his.
funny you say this^^. I believe that outside of what he'll inherit, h would do money poorly.
I studied finances intensely. It's an anomaly given my performing arts interests.
So h ASKED me to invest our retirement savings in the early 2000's (it bored him)
and then found out h "invested" a chunk too, behind my back. (WHY lie??) I discussed finances with him ad nauseum and at one point h said "25 if you like this stuff, go ahead. Put it where you think best."
Unknown to me, h started investing in fear based "investments" in 2003 which are simply gone now. I checked and yes those monies are gone. Idiot.
And he asked me for advice on a retirement account in 2011 and I filled out the paperwork, which he lost. So I did it again. (I know!) Then he called me from work when he was in HR, and I told him which ones to choose (there were only 3 I selected).
But he did his own thing, for some unknown reason. I mean, why pretend to take my advice? Why give me the forms and paperwork and then call from HR?
So his "investments" earned what you'd get by hiding money under a rock. Mine have doubled 3 times...
(You're welcome, h). Our s30 said if there's an inheritance from his parents it'll be from me. So much wasted money that h now says was b/c I lived beyond our means.
Gee, if only I had worked full time somewhere and maybe didn't have that wacky 3rd child...THEN h could be happy. On fb, he's SO HAPPY!!
Once I know what my budget is, I can make better plans. I'm 57 (yeah I look younger but still) it determines a lot. I would like to work overseas as a teacher and then maybe get work as a lawyer over there, for a few years
or do a job in this area, that matters to me. H got to change careers, twice and loves his job. Well, he DID love it...
I'd like a turn...
Check out the Mr Money Mustache website for some inspiration.
I will. BTW I got this condo based on the court order. I cannot afford to stay here if I get no spousal support. I chose this place b/c it is close to the subway in case I have another seizure and can't drive for 3 years. It's pricey. But I don't want to live with a sibling again.
No offense to siblings...this is the first time in my life I've lived alone (not counting my dog). It's important to me to do this...
- My career and newfound musical hobby life have flourished since the divorce.
I look forward to discovering this^^^. - Since the breakup of my marriage, little things - or even big things like the current dating implosion disaster on my thread - seem like small potatoes in comparison. I feel kinda invincible -
like the worst has already happened, that thing I tried so hard to prevent, the breakup of my marriage - and I survived and thrived, so anything else that comes up just looks totally surmountable.
I understand this^^^...it happened and i'm still alive. And I have peace about a lot of things, including filing for divorce.
I know it's hard to look ahead when you're still embroiled in the divorce stuff, but how about making yourself a vision board? Put all the nice things and experiences you want to pursue in your life on it.
I actually did make a list of things I was mourning the loss of due to the Div...(like travel and living overseas, having a lovely home, and doing a job that "matters" to me and "leaving my mark".)
Then I stared at it and said, "hey 25, are you sure you have to cross off ALL those items off? Seems like a lot of them are attainable without your h, in modified forms. "
Those are the things I want to do or start to do, now, and force myself OUT GAL. Yeah, I know how to GAL and I have done so in the past.
Not sure why I'm holing up at the moment. Guess I gat myself a day to huddle with my dog. Or is it b/c I know that h is not coming back? Hmm, I'll have to ponder that.
Now there's cluttering paperwork around and that will have to be handled.
Because I want a nice clean place to live in. For me.
(A few years after my divorce,
I found a list I'd made - an exercise in a self-help book - listing 100 things I'd like to do in my life. This was made years before the divorce. One of the things I'd put on the list - I swear I don't even remember thinking this at the time - was to play in a band. And here I was 5 years later, having learned to play the drums after my divorce, playing in a pop-punk band and touring playing glockenspiel and percussion with my professional singer-songwriter friend. So but some BIG dreams on that vision board - you never know what will come of it!)
I hear you. ((( )))
PS KML it's weird to have this recon history and then another round of this, so similarly.
It makes me question the whole MLC label. For sure now, it's a non issue. It would require a seismic change in h to want back in. That's assuming insight and effort - he once said he'd "just win me back" if things didn't work out up there.
But even assuming this Mt Everest amount of work, where would the trust be? There are some things you just can't "unknow"...
He's only now noticing that the kids are not "into" HIS happiness. he sent them Easter cards with goofy stickers on the outside and I think it was supposed to be funny.
They ignored...so maybe he's realizing that doing this $hit is not painless for - even him.
My belief - which could be wrong - is that
You just cannot inflict this much pain on people who loved you, and so much financial damage, and such extensive rewriting of marital history, and remain unscathed...
h left the first time when he was 50...and now he's 60. Terrified of aging and it SHOWING...so he's dating an OW who is an "aesthetician" and from what I hear (I blocked him on fb)
her facelift isn't good one. ( I admit Of course I like hearing that). I can imagine them working together, btw.
And I can imagine h getting lots of botox. Fillers, whatever. Fight aging as much as he can.
He is a liar in so many ways...
KML, and others, how to date...I cannot offer much to a man in my life at the moment. I mean, fun companionship (b/c I'm friggin' hilarious and brilliant and beautiful...just saying...)
But I'd like to think h's blows to my ego are to be overcome. Must it be by dating? Don't get me wrong, I want to date. And I want intimacy in my life.
Like this year. It's a NYE resolution I made and time is ticking...
But that will be weird. I have not been with a man other than my h, for 37 years. We met when I was 19.
Oh geez...
Thanks for the encouragement - it means a lot.
AJM,
thank you
But I'd like to think h's blows to my ego are to be overcome. Must it be by dating? Don't get me wrong, I want to date. And I want intimacy in my life.
Like this year. It's a NYE resolution I made and time is ticking...
But that will be weird. I have not been with a man other than my h, for 37 years. We met when I was 19.
Well, just FYI - I think I had exceptionally good luck but the first guy I dated after my ex was the best sex I ever had in my life! And the men I dated after him were pretty great too. Don't rush into it until you're ready, but don't be too afraid either ( use condoms though!!!!!!).
Hi 25 - firstly (((((hugs))))) to you and I'm sorry things are rough right now.
Realising the process of some D's, I was pretty lucky that XH was reasonably cooperative and didn't do any significant stuff during the D process. Maybe there was some guilt - IDK - but for sure I am financially comfortable merely by quietly holding my ground on some key areas..
I agree that older kids will form a view of the behaviour anyhow. My SS for example recently said - Well I love my Dad because he's my Dad - but he's such a moron sometimes etc..respect is lost and it does matter in that R long term. It's a shame.
Interesting that your H acts out around the milestone birthdays...and interesting the choice of GF - an aesthetician. For my XH, it was someone closer in age to his S than to him....so...
As for dating - I'm almost a year past D and haven't yet dated. I have no regrets about that, and I would always encourage getting through the maelstrom of the D process and letting the dust and you settle before thinking about that. In the meantime, lovely nourishing things, new activities and deepening friendships bring bright spots of joy too..
I'm sorry your H is being as he is during this process. I agree that you don't get to nuke a marriage, bounce off into a new R and cause this kind of hurt without some hurt to yourself. I once read that any wound caused to another is a wound to self - and that always stayed with me. Whether that wound becomes openly acknowledged and an apology is made, I guess that's a different matter..
Take care 25 - brighter days lie ahead for you once this bumpy road is travelled. Xx
25 -
On the dating question - it's right when YOU are ready, meaning when you are done . It's certainly not fair to start a new relationship if you're still hung up on the ex.
That time is different for different people. In my case -so much like yours - I'd had ten years of DBing my butt off. I had peace of mind that I'd done everything possible to try to save my marriage - my conscience was clear. And I knew that even if he came crawling back, I could never trust him again. So when he filed three months after he finally moved out, six months after he announced his intention to do so, I was DONE. And dating at that time for me was very healing and validating.
I will admit though, that for the next three or four years of dating, I unconsciously picked guys who weren't truly available for a real relationship : Love Avoidants, too young, or otherwise not relationship material. I think it was because I wasn't ready myself to be asked for more.
When I was finally ready Mr. TDH showed up and he DID seem to be available for a real relationship. Sadly he turned out to be a liar and a sociopath, but until I recently discovered that, it was a nice relationship lolol!
ellie, (KML)
how do you view your m now? I struggle with gas lighting from the past. I don't know which good memories were real?
We were on the news last year, on TV, for having a "wonderful m" but differing feelings about the election. IT was a funny piece and reflected very well on us. H was delighted with it and very affectionate, saying it was the "best thing we've ever done".
That^^ was the m I thought I was in. But seeing his text messages (from our d19's cell phone, which he gave her when hers broke)
show that he was planning a move to Alaska - originally with me - but never saying a word to me till almost Mother's Day. WHILE we were on TV, he was already planning to put me through GroundHog Alaska...
why watch me do a job search in other areas, (to please HIS requirements) or pretend that it was "25's turn" for a move?
I'm going to T today and then, coincidentally, to an aesthetician's office for MY face.
OW has at least one kid and doesn't seem younger (I have not looked at fb and blocked h. It's one healthy protective thing I've done).
Jesus - I need to get h out of my head.
Before I do (and i promise I will) for Informational purposes...
my L told me that h was in court for our first hearing (I didn't go and was told h was not).
I am told that "h seems very distracted, and cannot focus on one topic for very long at all, other than complaining about paying 25. He has disorganized thoughts and rambles."
she suspects his own L is not enjoying the case. But for all I know, his L suggested quitting his GREAT job to avoid paying...or has some alternative plan.
No way is H going to remain unemployed.
** I meant to say that H never planned on retiring. He left CA FOR a "great job and partnership in Alaska" and that was what he nagged me about till just before I got sick.
And he told s30 this until their last contact.
In late summer, H said "at one time I could have made you come with me."
(What?? You mean like when you could steal me from my tribe??")
I recall that statement with the clarity you have when you know your spouse has said something really weird.
Oh, the gas lighting of the past...
Ahh, the gaslighting of the narcissist. I know it well.
It took a while for the rose colored glasses to come off and to see my ex as he truly was. Which is not to say it invalidates all of the marriage - I truly believe I got the best years of him, feel kinda sorry for his new young wife who is getting a shell of the man that I had.
But that being said, it's clear to me now that the man I THOUGHT I was married to, was not the same as the man I WAS married to. His inner life contained many more doubts about the marriage, earlier, than I ever would have imagined. And I look back on certain events or things he said and realize he probably cheated more than I ever suspected. It was disturbing to figure out and it does leave you with the unsettled feeling of "how much of our relationship was real?".
(One example - he told me once how, on a business trip, a woman knocked on his door - a hooker who was sent to the wrong room. He claimed he let her in and spoke to her for a bit (let her use the phone? I can't remember the excuse). Treated it as an odd occurrence at the time, but now of course I wonder if he was trying to secretly "tell me" he had sex with a hooker? I feel like anything is possible.
Certainly in the couple of years leading up to his final departure, he was all over me to return to work - even though we had an unstable teenage child at home and even though his excellent income was plenty for us to live on. I realize now that his push to get me back to work was all about paying less in alimony when he left.
I'd also wonder about this Alaskan OW your H is involved with. I know you didn't think he had an OW before, but is it possible that she was the OW before? And this is just a resumption (or continuation?) of the affair?
If it's at all possible to get a lump sum settlement in lieu of alimony, I would take it. My ex has to pay me alimony for 10 years (only a couple left) but I found out last year that because he's bad at math and taxes, he mistakenly thought he was paying me 40% of his income instead of 11% of his take home. This resulted in a lot of financially passive-aggressive behavior on his part over the years. We didn't have enough liquid assets for him to buy me out of the alimony initially, but many times I have regretted that we didn't - it would have been done and over and I think alleviated a lot of the strain with him. Also it protects you against him becoming disabled and not being able to pay.
BTW, I love the idea of you traveling to teach overseas. I've often thought when I retire I might like to live in a foreign country for a while, although not sure where right now.
I'd also love to see you become a famous standup comic. Must be tons of material from these boards!
Ellie
P.S. if you have Amazon Prime, watch the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel - a pilot for a new series by the woman who made Gilmore Girls, about a woman comic in the 50's. Great.
P.S. if you have Amazon Prime, watch the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel - a pilot for a new series by the woman who made Gilmore Girls, about a woman comic in the 50's. Great.
OMG I so will watch. I'd write more now but I'm busy getting h out of my head.
P.S. if you have Amazon Prime, watch the Marvelous Mrs. Maisel - a pilot for a new series by the woman who made Gilmore Girls, about a woman comic in the 50's. Great.
OMG I so will watch. I'd write more now but I'm busy getting h out of my head. I love TV recommendations - Thanks KML
Yeah - the only problem with watching it is, it's so GOOD, and it's just a pilot, so we have to wait impatiently until they actually put the show on the air!
I'd write more now but I'm busy getting h out of my head.
Ok 25, let's sing a duet:
I'm gonna wash that man right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash that man right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash that man right outa my hair,
And send him on his way.
I'm gonna wave that man right outa my arms,
Nellie and Girls:
I'm gonna wave that man right outa my arms,
I'm gonna wave that man right outa my arms,
And send him on his way.
Don't try to patch it up
Girls:
Tear it up, tear it up!
Nellie:
Wash him out, dry him out,
Girls:
Push him out, fly him out,
Nellie:
Cancel him and let him go!
Girls:
Yea, sister!
Nellie:
I'm gonna wash that man right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash that man right outa my hair,
I'm gonna wash that man right outa my hair,
And send him on his way.
If a man don't understand you,
If you fly on separate beams,
Waste no time, make a change,
Ride that man right off your range.
Rub him out of the roll call
And drum him out of your dreams.
Girls:
Oho! If you laugh at different comics,
If you root for different teams,
Waste no time, weep no more,
Show him what the door is for.
Rub him out of the roll call
And drum him out of your dreams.
Nellie:
You can't light a fire when the woods are wet,
Girls:
No!
Nellie:
You can't make a butterfly strong,
Girls:
Hmm, hmm!
Nellie:
You can't fix an egg when it ain't quite good,
Girls:
And you can't fix a man when he's wrong!
Nellie:
You can't put back a petal when it falls from a flower,
Or sweeten up a fellow when he starts turnin' sour
Girls:
Oh no! Oh no!
Nellie and Girls:
If his eyes get dull and fishy,
When you look for glints and gleams,
Waste no time,
Make a switch,
Drop him in the nearest ditch!
Rub him out of the roll call,
And drum him out of your dreams
Oho! Oho!
Nellie:
I went to wash that man right outa my hair,
I went to wash that man right outa my hair,
I went to wash that man right outa my hair,
And sent him on his way.
Girls:
She went to wash that man right outa my hair,
She went to wash that man right outa my hair,
She went to wash that man right outa my hair,
Nellie and Girls:
And send him on his way!
I love this forum lol ^^^
well KML (ellie) you have certainly thrown down the gauntlet!!
Okay here are a few potential lines from a new stand up set.
Counting My Divorce blessings and
"Dedicated to my soon to be ex..."When you didn't tell me the $hitty sneaky things you did, b/c you 'didn't want to hurt' my feelings -
you showed me how 'noble' lying is.
Thanks!
When you hid all grains on the top shelf b/c YOU were going Paleo, that wasn't 'controlling'...that was you protecting me from the Celiac disease I never had.
Thanks!
When you told me that 'other than my face', I had 'started to let myself go' -
I felt really great about my skin, as it's a testament to my facial care beauty regimen.
Thanks!
PS
Assume of course, that my delivery is perfect
I don't doubt your delivery would be perfect! LOL
Feel free to use my anecdote about my ex-husband telling me I "walked too heavy - and worse than that, taught our daughter to walk too heavy" any way you want lol.
25,
I'm sorry you are back. It is completely understandable that you have a difficult time getting your h off your mind. You were with him 37 years!
Ellie is so right. You will know when you are ready to date, and while I don't have any real advice, I can say I went for the hot guy when "getting back on the horse." I figured I may as well go big or go home😊. And if it's any consolation, x Mr. GB had to divorce me because of the way I are tacos. Maybe I'll have a taco in his honor because it's Cinco De Mayo?
Hang in there!
Lol -Tacos! Georgiabelle, have you ever watched Invader Zim? One of the cartoon aliens LOVES tacos!
First off, wanted you all to know I ate some grains AND gluten today...b/c I could.
And I could reach these evil foods on the lower shelves, where I myself placed them.
(Granted, the top shelves are empty b/c I can't reach them...but that's what the future men I date will help with).
25,
I'm sorry you are back. It is completely understandable that you have a difficult time getting your h off your mind. You were with him 37 years!
Yeah, no kidding. You'd think I'd be better at this, but so many other changes have happened in my life the past 16 months.
The whole health scare is still part of my life, 2 moves, including one cross country, and my first time in 30 years empty nest, oh, my mom dying, and a few other choice events
were all like cat turds on a $hit cake.
H has an OW to put all his focus on (and b1tching about paying me all HIS money...)
and a job - unless he really quit, which I don't believe is true OR will last.
So I assume It's far easier to have an "out of sight, out of mind" approach when you are so busy with a new life in a new place that has been his mistress for years (Alaska, I mean. Who knows about OW??)
If the A was longer than last summer/fall, then his dishonesty is only that much crappier...and weird. I'm telling you, He $ucked at theater, but turns out he really can act. Missed his calling.
Point is, OH WELL...I need to remind myself that what I lost was a man who was increasingly critical and short tempered even while giving me enough to hang onto...
what I lost was a guy who didn't have my back. I have my flaws, and they are not few.
But man, I've gone through more than most w's would have, with loyalty and love and humor and intelligence. Plus I'm awesome in other ways...
it's morbidly fascinating to realize how much the blows of rejection or their leaving and the way it feels like criticism (which it is, in reality) serves to lower our self esteem, which creates self doubt. Like suddenly I'm really indecisive. WTF?
I'm noticing that seeing the past with a different lens, undermines my memories and recall of the marriage. AND that makes me wonder how sharpened my social cue picks up are. I'm an extrovert and have a ton of friends. Friends from the age of 4.
I work to maintain relationships...
so how could I have missed what was happening?? That he was checking out?
Now I question way too much of my past. Ellie, (KML) how did you process that? I cannot recall how long your m was either, or the kids issue. I think you have one?
Query - Maybe it's better if Just For Now, I let go of the past and stare at my own role, later??
I don't think I'd date h if we met now. I don't think I am just saying that. I love his charm and there's chemistry. H is smart and gets my HILARIOUS jokes (who wouldn't?) We were oddly well suited in many ways.
But the past 2 years (and off and on, since his "MLC") there has been more rude abruptness, social or political awkwardness I had to "lubricate", the lying by omission and to my face, the chronic undermining of the past 2 years, ...and the manipulations with money... sheer idiocy with investments, which we could NOT discuss b/c he heard everything as an attack, even when I worded it as if I was sedated...
what a plague this ordeal has been for our family.
I have to keep telling myself that the man I married & loved, is pretty much dead.
(if i'm repeating myself, I apologize. It is hard to remember what I've said to whom, not just b/c of the medications. But hey, maybe it helps it sink in more to say it again in writing & then reading it)...
The reason I say he's effectively dead is not to be vindictive. Truly. It's to free myself of wondering how h would view my choices. I'm telling you it's insidious how it happens.
The choices I want to make, whatever they are, are much easier when he's just not a factor.
When I envision my life without h being a factor in my decisions, and with money issues at least half way favorable, I feel so much freer and optimistic about my future. It's really true. Thank God h lives far away.
Must be a nightmare to run into these guys in town often...ugh
So that's ^^ a generic goal of mine. Assume he's either dead or on Mars so he's not a factor. Guess this is actually a form of detachment, eh?
Back to ME/me/me - Specific goals - This week I MUST get as much of my GDC (Gross Div Crap) done as I can.
And I will join a group or volunteer somewhere, whatever, some NEW GAL activity by Mother's Day.
And I'm going to see my youngest for Mother's Day.
Ellie is so right. You will know when you are ready to date, and while I don't have any real advice, I can say I went for the hot guy when "getting back on the horse."
I see dating as 2 - 3 forms. First is the group you are referring to as getting back on the horse. They may help me get over the hump...so to speak...but that would be physical.
Paradoxically I've always associated sex with emotional connection, so it's hard to believe I could just have a physical only R.
2nd type is for guys I might really be able to fall for, which I am not ready to do. So what's the point yet?
3rd group of guys are in between these^^ or just guys who I have known a long time and who I might date and see what evolves.
My therapist HAMMERED me about not marrying the first guy I date. She insisted. I didn't think she needed to say it so much but I guess she has seen it happen a lot.
Yes I know that's what h may do. C'est la vie.
Not my sandbox and hey, he never went to IC. I guess in some ways I'm the one with a head start... I cannot imagine doing this, soon. Just replacing my h with OM. My kids are very supportive of me dating but I tell them it's too soon and that dating does NOT mean moving on and NOT dating does not mean I'm not moving forward. I'm trying to be smart and healthy. I have been asked out, but I'm not "out there" yet.
yes I can imagine having another h, I guess.
Like a Mr. Perfect, except he won't be...and I won't have 35 years of history or 3 kids...
Thoughts on people remarrying ever, when? Is it our (my) age that makes us afraid to be alone in our later years? OR our need to be in a partnership? H is 60 and it strikes me as pathetic and ever so cliched, but that is, again HIS sandbox.
Maybe b/c I have many siblings, I don't THINK i'll mind being alone for awhile, but I admit I don't envision myself alone forever.I figured I may as well go big or go home😊.
Did you feel insecure about anything physical, like stretch marks from pregnancy? I gotta admit if money were no issue, (and let's hope it won't be...sometime) I'd get a tummy tuck. Yeah, I have to wonder if that is what I want, or what I think h makes me think I want.
Christ. And if it's any consolation, x Mr. GB had to divorce me because of the way I are tacos. Maybe I'll have a taco in his honor because it's Cinco De Mayo?
Hang in there!
Well, Georgia, eating tacos the wrong way is a deal breaker for a lot of folks. Should have had that in a pre-nupt...
Were they the loud crunchy type of tacos, the kind that are NOISEY AND DROP CRUMBS?? Which attracts pests...and then who knows what kind of damage is done.
Or were they the soft but sloppy kind?
these things matter
Now, back to me & my gluten snacks...
I don't doubt your delivery would be perfect! LOL
Feel free to use my anecdote about my ex-husband telling me I "walked too heavy - and worse than that, taught our daughter to walk too heavy" any way you want lol.
i missed this^^. Delicious flaw.
OMG Stop clomping around...
Oh, on a totally unrelated note...
I have a friend who is a forensic expert, who just testified for the prosecution in a murder case.
So the defense attorney asked her a question he did NOT know the answer to,
which is a no no.
Defense Attorney to Forensic: "so if you'e always so busy with your caseload, and this case was 8 years ago, how could you possibly remember my client?"
Forensic Expert: "because your client was the only one who ever threatened to kill me"
Incredibly, the attorney asked A FOLLOW UP
Def Attorney: "Oh really? And what'd you do about it?"
Expert: "I called the cops & they arrested him...but I guess that's another trial..."
(So delicious. )
Ha! I like soft fish or shrimp tacos. I scoop the stuff out and eat the middle. I mean, what despicable behavior???😊 My other unforgivable flaw is that x Mr. GB always said he didn't understand how I could function being so logical. Again, crazy and irrational is best.
25, I have had 3 c sections. While I'm reasonably fit, my stomach is an absolute debacle. I would have a tummy tuck in a heartbeat!!! I have extremely mixed feelings on marrying again. Actually, I have a rather strong feelings and don't quite see the point in marrying again. I do believe in marriage and I'm always excited for people when they are getting married. But when that circles back to me I'm not sure if that something that I want to do again. And I loved being married! Of course, that could change but I guess for me that's not a huge deal. I readily admit my feelings are fluid so all of that could change with time.
Enjoy your snacks. :-)
Ah, the marriage question. Mr TDH ( hereforth to be known as Mr SEB for Sociopathic Ex Boyfriend)?used to claim he wanted to marry me. I hid behind the excuse of not being able to marry until my alimony was through, but the truth is, I really don't want to marry again. I'd love to be part of a long term committed relationship; but have no desire to commingle finances or be stuck with going through another divorce in the future. Other issues could be dealt with by using wills and powers of attorney etc. So unless there was a significant clear cut financial benefit, I'd rather not marry.
Don't get me wrong, I think marriage is a wonderful institution and a necessity to protect women when they're raising children. Just at my age (61) I don't see the point.
Ah, the marriage question. Mr TDH ( hereforth to be known as Mr SEB for Sociopathic Ex Boyfriend)?used to claim he wanted to marry me. I hid behind the excuse of not being able to marry until my alimony was through, but the truth is, I really don't want to marry again.
I'd love to be part of a long term committed relationship; but have no desire to commingle finances or be stuck with going through another divorce in the future. Other issues could be dealt with by using wills and powers of attorney etc. So unless there was a significant clear cut financial benefit, I'd rather not marry.
Don't get me wrong, I think marriage is a wonderful institution and a necessity to protect women when they're raising children. Just at my age (61) I don't see the point.
I hear you^^^. Lots to think about.
Turns out being a L AND a stay at home mom for the last decade+, means I've gotten 0 interviews
and that was before the seizures & weird meds I'm on. So that's lovely for the ego
and h's lawyer filed a motion to determine WHEN exactly I can support myself and blah blah blah.
OH And he quit his great job. If I have to work so HE can retire, I'm gonna do a one woman whine/scream show.
Good grief. It's like the laws themselves help protect us, ON PAPER
but to take him to court every time he violates the orders, only to have a judge say "hey h, do it"
(it's not the same as contempt of court in a criminal trial where a judge fines them or puts them in jail for a day).
So the
Process favors the a$$hole unless you hang in there a long long time.
Makes me think taking the 401k's entirely, in lieu of h's monthly "allowances" - you'd think they were gifts FROM him to me...is appealing even if the math is not totally in my favor.
Which is h's goal I assume.
If I were working and had income to cover the legal costs, I'd be a harda$$ (no money this month so far and only half of the ordered amount last month) AND h claims a new high tax bill and thinks I will "owe him a lot of money"
What???? is he literally insane? He's never paid me the right amount and I have no job and his income was VERY high...
okay, okay, deep breaths...i know in the long run it will save me money to fight him, and the unjustness of it all, will be a little eased if I fight.
I'll feel like crap if I cave in to unreasonable demands.
I'm borrowing money from my sister to pay legal fees.
Geez, what the heck was my point in this post?
OH YEAH - to agree with Ellie about not feeling certain of another m.
And yet, I do love being part of a couple. Then again, I have not been truly single since I was a teenager. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe being single is THE thing...I do like drinking my coffee's half & half right out of the carton, without any disapproval from my dog. (She encourages it.)
Hmm, I wonder if my dating experience is a tad out of date? (Nonsense!)
I can envision being in love again. I do envision it. That helps me. For some reason I'm not terrified of being hurt again. Like I think I'd just move on fast but maybe that's b/c I'm already
detached from any future r. Yikes how weird is that?
I've got a mountain to climb before I feel as desirable as I used to feel. In my head I know I'm attractive (not bragging, just being real). And YET...
Like it's the intimacy issue for ME, (I like sex, FTR)
but getting there...
Ramble over
For some reason I'm not terrified of being hurt again.
I found that for me, after fighting so hard for my marriage, and still losing it - it was like the worst that could happen had happened. Nothing that occurred in my subsequent dating life could even begin to compare, it was all small potatoes. Not my first post-divorce boyfriend dumping me for his old high school girlfriend, not Mr SEB imploding and turning out to be a liar. I feel strangely invincible, and simply not as attached to outcomes as I was in my twenties.
For some reason I'm not terrified of being hurt again.
I found that for me, after fighting so hard for my marriage, and still losing it - it was like the worst that could happen had happened.
YES^^^
Nothing that occurred in my subsequent dating life could even begin to compare, it was all small potatoes.
YES^^
I DB'd my butt off, off & on for a decade. My mom died, which was the worst loss I could imagine other than losing a child. And losing her suddenly, left a gaping hole, which was worse than h going off on his adventure...
b/c my mom was a great mom. H wasn't a great dad or h for awhile...and not having my back when i got so sick, i mean, wow...I did my best with the limited info i had then.
.
Not my first post-divorce boyfriend dumping me for his old high school girlfriend, not Mr SEB imploding and turning out to be a liar.
I feel strangely invincible, and simply not as attached to outcomes as I was in my twenties.
i get this. ^^ Truly.
But i want to love fully, & joyfully & without reservation - again. Or maybe not date much.
Play big or go home??
So you're saying that, because you had already been so damn deeply hurt,
and more than survived, whatever might come next,
would not break you?
I get that.
You know, I've always thought the phrase "what doesn't kill you, makes you stronger" was stupid.
I can think of lots of things that are horrible but don't kill me, OR make me stronger.
Like Leprosy.
If my arms fall off, I can still live.
But I'm not stronger b/c of it.
ON THE OTHER HAND, when it comes to heart break there may be some truth herein.
If I can make it through THIS crap and still laugh and love, then sometime down the road I think I'll be able to date and say
bring it on
Leprosy is curable, syphilis is curable, diabetes is manageable as is HIV.
Having your head up your arse in Alaska/Italy/Russia/Rabbit hole or being in disorder not so much. Hope his head gets stuck there along with his tender bits. Since finding my anger and my voice then I am not so kind to these idiotic Wassocks. And my language is bluer and less Lady V like. I even got a censor on one post.
As they say in Monty Python "come back and I will bite your knees"
I think being stronger refers to the mental domains. I know you did EE, I am thinking of volunteering for one of the next courses as a support person so I can observe others grow into themselves. If I can afford it of course. Is this something you might consider?
Truly 25 you may not observe yourself growing, I have, you are no longer with the blue pill, you have taken the red one. Takes a matrix adjustment and reality bites and cold comfort is a better place to be.
It's going to be ok, Alaska (a state of mind, a rabbit hole) is a much less real place than you find yourself today, a little like being born into a world of light and noise.
Take your time, it's going to be ok.
V
Thanks Vanilla
I will be doing Team for EE this year. If not July, then the one in the fall.
I'm not sure if I've seen a team member who has not taken the course itself first, but you'd have to ask them. The structure of the workshop is experiential, so no lectures, really. But there are exercises and demonstrations, which require participants not know ahead of time what an exercise will help them discover. That way you cannot edit or rehearse an answer - (which I have often done most of my professional life).
Doing team is incredibly refreshing and I've done it probably 8
+ times Since living back east, I later flew in from Texas, California and even Alaska, with participants. So I obviously think it's worth it.
Doing team always helps me feel peace & growth in supporting the participants,
and if needed, to make a breakthrough. (*Doing team doesn't cost other than getting there, so the actual cost of the workshop, over time for ME, has been nominal b/c I have done team so much).
And if I do start dating in a "real" relationship again, I'd want the future Mr25 to attend EE too.
Next topic - I still think I've got a joke in my leprosy analogy, but clearly I need a better punchline.
Thanks for the encouragement.
I was feeling really stuck yesterday, like going in a loop in my head.
I went out last night with an old friend who is very witty. We got our laugh on.
This morning I went exploring my new neighborhood with my dog and found a clean dog part (thank GOD! Huge life improvement, I swear).
I just feel better today. So yeah, the hammering we all do about GAL is advice we have to take ourselves. I've never seen it not help.
I know it is the main thing that helps. I knew it before and I know it now.
It was the heavy blanket of inertia, and a gloomy feeling of being overwhelmed, mostly by financial concerns but which always blend into emotional "H/WTF?" issues
that fools me into thinking I'm stuck.
The more directionless I feel, the worse. A new sense of purpose needs refining here.
My kids are out of the house and I'm not going to be h's wife much longer (legally I mean),
and the health issues threw me off my career path.
I'm still me and I have a lot of love in my life.
So this is rebuilding.
I'm not the first person to need to do it. I won't be the last.
And if I'm going to refer to h in this post or what's in his head, etc
I can only say that at least I don't have to rebuild my r with my children. Good luck with that, h.
In time They'll see him, (2 of them will, I'm pretty sure). With or without OW they will resume contact when he does, and I suspect he will do so, as soon as the money issues are settled. This troubled me yesterday. Like why does he get to treat them with no contact, AND me with crap, only to pretend all is well later?
But that's only HIS reality. The kids saw more than I did, turns out.
They have said they cannot ever be close to an "inauthentic person who keeps secrets" and my kids are very very authentic people.
They'll tell you how they really feel if asked, & sometimes when not asked.
They'll form good bonds with their SO's in their lives, and that makes me feel proud and happy.
KML, the talk about walking too heavy... That brought back funny memories! I was accused of the same thing (among other things!)
25, you're looking at leprosy all wrong. You're looking at the physical aspect of 'what doesn't kill you...' There's so much more to it. So much more valuable stuff.
And since that's curable, perhaps they can put a plexiglass window in your H's stomach she he can see where he's going with his head so far up his arse
25, in all seriousness, don't be surprised by the cloudy thinking, the down times, etc. It's part of the process. Albeit, a sucky part of it, but a part of it nevertheless. Kind of a crab walk at times - two steps forward, one step sideways, one step back. Some days will feel like you're not moving. That's ok 25. As much as you want the hurt to end NOW, it takes some time. I don't think it will take you as long as some though. You've been at this and struggling so long. I'm actually kind of surprised part of you isn't giddy about being free. I was, and I wasn't at it nearly as long. I felt a little guilt at feeling happy and unburdened.
In hindsight, I wasted the guilty feeling though...
One foot in front of the other. No shortcuts and no running yet. Yet.
Peace,
AJ
AJM said it all. There really is nothing more.
thanks guys
You know I have this neurotic view of the universe about jinxing things by saying them out loud.
(It's not a conscious thing, but some gut level weirdness I cannot rationally defend)
Here I am, taking the risk today!
okay so I know there will be pain and shaking my head moments for HOWEVER long...
but I kind of feel like if the divorce settlement gives me financial freedom,
I admit a growing sense of excited nervousness & optimism towards my future. (And being free from a dishonest lunatic.)
A friend of mine (WAW) told me that in her m, her needs were unmet for a long time. And in fairness, she's right.
She feared letting any OM into her life b/c of how her h would look in HER Eyes...meaning she'd see her m and her h in such a lesser light by being treated kindly by OM.
I understand that more now.
I think dating a normal guy who makes me his priority, will be hard to trust at first, then I worry that it will make me regret not getting that sooner.
But that's^^ stinking thinking...
So my rambling point is that yes I look forward to the D being done soon, (if done fairly to me).
I look forward to making choices NOT involving = "how will it look to h if I do this?"
b/c it's soooo freeing when I do.
I immediately get happier & lighter when I feel like he's on Mars and h cannot learn what I'm doing or I cannot hear his voice of disapproval or resentment...
(hey, it's a 37+ year relationship and stream of consciousness from h, that I have to stop hearing.)
SIDENOTE - I do think of h often in conversational ways. Like wondering what he thinks of a political event, or medical breakthrough. It's most those moments I wonder if he ever wonders what I think...
plus I'm damn funny so I have my moments of wondering about that.
But lately I think, "some OM will be glad to hear intelligent wit from me, soon.
Lucky him." And if there's never to be an OM, I still make my loved ones happy and I make myself happy.
Yep, I even laugh out loud at my own jokes. I'd be a great audience for me. I should probably tape my laughs now...
I will have to start a new thread soon but don't know how to link...Cadet??
Here is something I'm dealing with that is more retrospective but raised by my kids a lot lately. I posted this in reply to Beatrice on Own's thread. So I'm hijacking my own hijack, I think....
The question my children have asked me, more than once, is why I stayed so long after it became clear (to them, anyhow) that h was mistreating me.
This^^^ is a hard thing to hear. It's NOT how great or sacrificial or martyr like it was of me to stay, but how *unhealthy*.
I believed the best case scenario (best for my ego) every chance I had.
Retrovaille was amazingly productive. (I do believe it helps turn marriages around more than any other weekend retreat).
H made a huge painful admission and breakthrough the last day. I believe it was authentic and very hard for him.
And you know what? I let that afternoon of remorse and insight, FUEL ME for years...like it was a bone he threw me (even if authentic on his end) that allowed me to overlook way way too much, later on.
With all 3 of my children giving me feedback, it's clear h wasn't fully invested in the marriage for some time. And that's not to mention the "MLC" crap earlier.
And of course it hurts me as a mother and wife.
H would vacillate and I'd see hope in his confusion & mixed signals. My mistake. Their confusion is Not to be confused with their being good h's. It's more like which exit they want to use and when. OR their deciding if they really want to be married, but that's not what was said or admitted.
In hindsight, I'd see some romantic gesture right after a period of "distance/anger" from h, as an apology. But I don't think so, now.
I think h was effectively treating me like a BF Skinner experiment where you get inconsistent reinforcement; enough to keep you fully invested
even while they are not.
He mistreated me long term and worse, I put up with it.
I do Not think it was to be a martyr - BUT My kids have asked me about that more than once. They want to know why I allowed or 'wanted' to be a victim = being right".
I don't think that's true, but I think it was worse. I think it was largely fear that kept me in, AND the "gambler's syndrome".
(H finally earned a lot of money too, and we had been through years of poverty. -literally below the poverty line the first decade of marriage. So YES I now believe i wanted some emotional AND financial pay off for all my loyalty and effort and TIME.)
I was also afraid of being single, at a subconscious level. I say "subconscious" b/c I know, cognitively, I'm attractive, smart and social. But it's been a very long time since I was single. And with this severe ego blow, years of choices that don't affirm me, it's easy to forget that I'm desirable. Plus i am 10 years older, so there's that.
Anyway, Imagine a gambler in a poker game has been losing all night, off and on. But the House is winning most of the money most of the time.
The gambler keeps playing even as his chips are dwindling. He needs/wants to win a big round , he NEEDS to win a big round to get all the money back and then some... Even in the face of huge losses, he keeps playing & hoping for different results.
because if he walks away from the table after such big losses, it'll mean all that money is lost. That the whole game was for nothing.
I think that^^^ was why I stayed...I didn't want all my years to mean nothing. And I was afraid of divorce. It meant failure, and it meant I had "Lost" and that I was obviously not as valuable (to h) as a JOB or a place...or an OW.
My ego & heart could not grasp or accept^^^^ that.
And now I think that it's just true. H's values/priorities are revealed by his actions.
We are not as important to h, and that is glaringly obvious.
It shocks me that I, 25, an empowered smart woman in other arenas of my life,
would let myself be a fooled doormat for so long.
I spent so much time defending or trying to understand/explain h, to justify MY choices to stay, and deny what was so obvious to others.
H was NOT IN THE MARRIAGE that I was in. H was, effectively a single man w/a wife at home and mothering his kids, like a single mother who cannot date or move on.
I do NOT feel proud of the example I set for my kids. So not proud. On the contrary.
sigh...My main goal as a mother now, is to show my kids how to accept brutal reality & make this a transformative experience in which I rebuild my life favorably.
And yes, I am forgiving myself for my mistakes. I have long life genes, so I'm going to make the most of my 2nd half.
So my rambling point is that yes I look forward to the D being done soon, (if done fairly to me).
I look forward to making choices NOT involving = "how will it look to h if I do this?"
So does this mean you'll wait to have that freedom until he no longer bothers you? Or is threatening you with some sort of legal action? I hope that's not that the case, 25. I hope you aren't waiting on external factors.
The question my children have asked me, more than once, is why I stayed so long after it became clear (to them, anyhow) that h was mistreating me.
This^^^ is a hard thing to hear. It's NOT how great or sacrificial or martyr like it was of me to stay, but how *unhealthy*.
I struggled with stuff like this for a long time. I have to reming myself who is on the planet for whom - me for the kids or the kids for me? My thought on this? Do they know what 'healthy' is? Do they understsand what it's like to contemplate throwing away a 25+ year relationship vs. holding out hope that it'll change? Do they understand that there are more important things than "me"? and that can extend to relationships? I hope they get that, because if you were all about "me" then you'd have left them and the H years ago. Trust me, I've seen it
I believed the best case scenario (best for my ego) every chance I had.
Do you plan to change this about yourself? Hope is not a crime. It's not even wrong in many philosophies, nor harmful. There is so much more for you to see and experience, 25. Well beyond the 'me' of this world or the 'get what you're entitled to' mentality of our culture. To really experience life, there is soooooo much more, if you ask me. Both what may be perceived as good or not good.
These are the thoughts that will lead you down a dark path, 25. Because in that light of 'me' first, you'll seriously have to wonder why you stayed. And then you'll wonder who you are. Then you'll lose hope and faith in first humanity, and then yourself. And it only goes down hill from there. Ask me how I know....
You'll need to answer the question, 25. You can't avoid it becuase your kids will want to know. They'll ask and they'll need an answer.
I remember you talking in the past, and I'm not sure that re-remembering your reasons will serve you well. Maybe. But it's hard to see that as a positive step.
Personally, if being an optimist is a crime, or it leads to people thinking I have ludomania, then fine. They can deal with that.
As for me, I like who I am and how I view things. With some adjustments based on experience.
Peace,
AJM
AJM
thanks for the thoughtful reply.
No, I don't mean that I need externals to remove h as a factor in decisions, I just need time. When I do it for awhile, I feel a lot better but that nagging voice of "really, 25? You want to do that??"
Financially once things are settled, I'll be able to act on my own path better. (No money this month in the mail or bank, btw...)
His refusal to abide by court orders erodes my confidence in planning, and it feels very manipulative of h. Not to mention him quitting the "Greatest job EVER" just to be underemployed. (Yes I have a L and the thing that people do not realize is that going to court for contempt when his claim is that he's unemployed will either result in what I'm going for anyhow, at the end of July -- i.e. pay up--- OR it will not so there's no incentive at this point, in my taking him to court since we are already scheduled to go at the end of July.
his lawyer DID ask mine about a settlement or finalization and that has appeal to me
but I want it to appeal for the right reasons, NOT Just to get this over with...
As for whether my kids know what it's like to throw away a 35 year marriage, no they don't. Clearly. But they are entitled to their feelings too and they are angry at h and frustrated with me when I say anything remotely similar to an explanation for their dad's behavior ("stop defending him!")
I will sort out my feelings about it all, and will at least tell them to back off a bit, in time.
They want to help me, which I dearly appreciate. But some of their opinions are just theirs...not necessarily valid.
But some are valid, and there were things I hid from OBVIOUSLY and that is on me at some level. I'm mostly second guessing myself about the past but that won't last too long I hope.
AJM, No I don't think I'll be jaded with other men, (which is ironic, I know!)
It's like I don't think I could be THIS hurt again. So there's not that much risk.
Not b/c I'd hold back on love, but b/c I'm going through the worst thing now (along with mom dying and the sh1tty medical crisis last fall --okay 2016 was a lousy year for me, to be honest)
but I'm okay. Still here. Plus I usually believe that I'm a good catch and most men seem friendly to me. They flirt. But sure, when the man you marry and bear children with ends up choosing a place and "adventure" and OW over you, it cannot help but hit our egos at a deep level...lots of work to fight that - and I'm trying.
more later...
How to link (this is easiest with two windows open part 2 and part 3)
Start with old thread first, linking to new one
1. Switch to full screen reply mode on old thread: last post last thread ie part 2
2. Open up a new thread in a new window on your tablet or computer called say 10 years later....part 3 from newcombers screen
3. Go full screen reply mode on the new part 3 thread now both part 2 and 3 are full screen mode
4. Go to the very top of the old screen (part 2) to the w ww.divorcingbusting.com/forums/.....part 2 address bar
5. Copy all the text in the address bar
6. Then on new thread use button second in line with the worldpluslink you can find it between smiley and envelope. paste all you saved ww w..... to the end of the phrase http. then next screen and type : last post on part 2
Note:Don't forget to preview post then submit, in preview 'last post on part 2' is written in colour as the 'label' and has the link hidden under it to the old post
-----------
Then reverse it
Take the wwww.divorce busting........part 3 address
Copy all
Go to old thread (part 2)
Open linky world icon and paste part 3 address, then label : first post part 3
Preview and submit
Voila
V
Please note gap in www above is deliberate to stop it being an address. Don't type the gap.
No, I don't mean that I need externals to remove h as a factor in decisions, I just need time
I hear you. For me, I described it as perspective. It has taken me much longer to get that perspective than I'd like, but nonetheless I think we're describing similar things. I get it.
As for whether my kids know what it's like to throw away a 35 year marriage, no they don't. Clearly. But they are entitled to their feelings too and they are angry at h and frustrated with me when I say anything remotely similar to an explanation for their dad's behavior ("stop defending him!")
I will sort out my feelings about it all, and will at least tell them to back off a bit, in time.
Could I clarify that and make a suggestion? What I was getting at there is that you should be careful listening to others, your children included. And for the same reason. They are hurt and want you to be ok. I'm not suggesting their feelings aren't valid. Not by a long shot. I think they hurt as much or more than you do. They had NO choice in this at all. They have every right and then some to be angry and frustrated. To feel like their foundation in this world that helped them understand it, was ripped out from under them. It's tragic at the very least and very very sad.
I wouldn't think at this point you're trying to defend him. Rather, I read in your posts that you are trying to make sense of things. And just for fun, you're going through some tough times without your life=long partner, who by the way, pulled the rug out from under you in a long game. I think you could maybe add being destitute to that list and you'd have a royal flush of a hand. Oh wait...
You're right when you say that nobody could hurt you more. There isn't a person on the planet that could. There likely never will be again because you've proven you can take the hit and get back up. Not to say you can't love like that again and be hurt again. You can and you should and you will.
But some are valid, and there were things I hid from OBVIOUSLY and that is on me at some level. I'm mostly second guessing myself about the past but that won't last too long I hope.
It is those things you hid from, that I think you may want to dig into. Why? So that you can have peace with your choices. Side note: I see countless people, myself at one point included, that either conciously or sub-conciously determine that they'll never date or get involved with someone like "that" again. If you ask me, it's not that simple, 25. You were attracted to him for a reason. You did things for a reason. You hid things for a reason and you hoped for a reason. Maybe you hoped beyond reason. Maybe not. But if you take the time to understand those things about yourself, when you're able, I think you'll be better for it. And if you tell yourself it's ok to make those choices, you'll be fine regardless of the outcome, I know you'll be better for it.
Don't kid yourself, 25. It's a big injury. My conselor at the time described it as an IED type event that I neither expected (I didn't) nor defended against. At least, I didn't actively fight against it in the scheme of things. Why? Because it wasn't about me. I couldn't see the problems come up until they had already surfaced. She made sure of that for some reason I'll never know. During that time, my grandfather, who raised me as his own after my mom died when i was a kid and my father lost his marbles for a while, died of alzheimers. Shortly after, my grandmother was diagnosed with the same. Just for fun, my only sister, whom I'm close with, was diagnosed with brain and spine cancer. My father died. My daughter decided to blame me for who knows what and hasn't spoken to me since. And to add the cherry on top? My work was actively trying to fire me for unknown reasons. During that time, my son was taking very expensive medication and my insurance changed. They wanted about 10K a month for his meds and I could barely keep the job or pay the bills at the time. I got into an accident (cop said not my fault, but it totaled my car.) And while all this was going on, the ex was playing games with the lawyers (paid for by her mom and OM). Ex and the OM were harassing me and my kids to the point I almost filed with the county. I was in the suck for sure.
For perspective, there were also a lot of good things going on in my life. My good friends moved in with me for a few months. They're like my second family now. My son and I are very close. Closer than before all of this. My sister is doing fine. Later, the manager that was harassing me, was fired instead...I felt vindicated. He also later (years) apologized to me for his behavior, which was nice. I got a new and more interesting job. My kids both went off to college. I made a lot of new and dear friends. I have a roommate who is a close friend of mine. I dated some great women. Some for longer than others. I also had some fun and wild times with a few others. I bought a different car that I fixed up, and repaired the totaled car (that was costly but...) and gave it away to a friend in need. She was worse off than me. I became a leader in my church again. I taught confirmation to middle schoolers. I got a degree. I kept the house. The list goes on.
And you know what I see in that? I see life. Not good or bad, 25. Just life. I learned to not be bitter or angry. I also learned that some things are worth being angry about and that it's ok to do so. I learned I'm not unique in what happened, even though it felt like it at first. And that helped. This forum helped for that reason.
I learned some things are out of my control. No matter how perfect i was, or how good at negotiating or how careful or how... you get the picture. I learned that it's ok to be me and I learned that my actions won't always lead to the outcome I'd like - others have a say. I learned it's ok and that it's my life. All of it. The highs and lows and the in betweens.
I get it, 25. Time and perspective are important as is being careful to not allow damaging things to come from your mouth. They'll remember you for that and they'll need that example of strength grace at some point in their life. I know that from experience as well
Peace,
AJ
Bullseye AJM!
No one could say it better!
OK found your thread - but Job said it was about to be locked, so will reply on your new thread.
Job can you lock it & start the new one for me?
I know Vanilla listed how to do it but my brain is blocked today.
Not sure why I'm stuck, and resistant to how to do it or whatever -
thanks
25,
I'm sorry, I don't have the authority to lock and start a new thread for you on the Newcomers' Forum. I have the authority to do so on the MLC and Divorce Forums.
To start a new thread, go to the top of the forum and on the left hand side you will see a "button" that says "New Topic" in read letters. Click that button and then you are ready to go with a new subject and you can begin posting. Once you have completed this, you can then link your old thread to your new once and vice versa. If you don't know how to do that, we have instructions for that as well.
Instructions added from Cadet
How to start a thread
I will use what Job wrote
First Click on Newcomers then:
Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting. It's the same way that you created this thread.
Plus How to link your threads
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588047#Post2588047Start a new thread and I will link and lock them.