25yearsMLC - 10 years later I FILE D

MY UPDATE DB

(Sorry this gets rambling but I'll never post this if I require perfection)

This is so very hard to write. Yet in the interest of disclosure, and updating and for me, I need to write this.

For years, this (Below) was my signature block

m:51 H:55
M: 30 yrs
S25,D23,D15
H goes ALASKAN, solo,2005
I file Sep 2/06
Piecing 7/07
Retrovaille Weekend 8/08
M Restored 8/08

Be Happy or be "Right"

FORGIVENESS: Our way out of hell

This^^ is no longer all of the story.

To summarize in the briefest of ways, I would add this, below
*****
NOW

M:56 H-60
M: 35 years, S30, D28, D19

April 2016 - H announces he wants Alaska again, "Greatest Job Ever/Just give it a try"

May 2016 I learn of "lies by omission" - b/c he's been planning this awhile

July 2016 H denies wanting D, though I ask. But his pleas for me to join him morph into a "trial separation"

10/2/2016 I�m suddenly hospitalized while out of town for 6 days in ICU.
H (MD) is nowhere but my family is, & they are appalled.

10/9/2016 H retrieves me & he's in a hurry to return to Alaska, we are intimate often.

10/13/2016 H leaves for Alaska, saying �we just need to reboot/take a break�. I'm in a haze with the meds and after effects of illness.

10/13/2016 I realize H limited my access to joint funds.

10/15/2016 H gives me radio silence when I text & call to discuss finances.

10/18/2016 I file for divorce. In response, H texts me in surprise & irritation. (Incredible)

10/31/2016 my family helps me move cross country to be near loved ones, where I grew up.

OW confirmed VERY soon thereafter. H claims he "met her the day after I filed" (I'm actually laughing as I write that).

Rather than filling all the details out, (which I�ll do later) let me first try to get through the DB highlights.

In HINDSIGHT

*Yes, I thought we were past this. Yes I felt we reconciled. I still think that.

But reconciling does not mean staying married forever, obviously.

ALASKAN FIXATION

As the above history shows, about 10 years post reconciliation, my h pulled the same exact Alaskan �GREATEST JOB EVER, stuff again. It was a lot like Ground Hog day b/c he simply didn't have a new reasons and repeated- literally- the same points he made 10 years ago, almost none of which panned out.

I have to face it, he has an obsession about it and believes it's the only place he can be happy. Not Montana or Wyoming, etc, JUST THERE. And there are male mentors he admires who say he can "just walk in, turn key" big fish in a little pond, etc.

Not that it matters but yes, for the record, yes I offered to buy a summer place there and or live there part time.

Looking back, and considering h's pressure for me to "Be in the Senate" or somehow earn "more than him" as an MD, it's an insane expectation to be able to do anything part time there, and yet ALSO achieve his goals for me.

But my dreams had long blended into his so much that I sometimes couldn't remember what they were, apart from him.

And for those who don't know, I've lived up there for h, twice. No one else in our family enjoyed it nearly as much as h but believe me,

I have never GAL as much as I did there. I had to, or surrender to darkness (literally and figuratively).

 It was mostly the dishonesty and manipulation in this new job arrangement, that eroded my trust in him, again. Without going into all the arguments for it and opposing it, since none of that matters now anyhow, suffice to say he lied, and he left.

For whatever reasons, I could not quite cut the cord to H even in the face of yet another episode. He was turning 60, he had turned 50 before (the first "MLC" and I use quotes around that term b/c I'm no longer sure it applies or freaking matters). And he turned 40 shortly before we went the first time...no pattern I'm sure.

A part of me wondered if this was some sort of episodic MLC or whatever. OR if h was testing me or b/c he was turning 60 and SUPPOSED to retire finally, here he was making nutty selfish choices, again.

Point is, I STILL vacillated. I could not wrap my brain around a 35 year marriage ending. Not after all the poverty we endured and then wealth and frankly, I could not believe I'd be "rewarded" for my loyalty and compassion, with another pile of this crap.

Down deep, I think ^^this really threw me for a loop. After all the real forgiveness I had felt, and given for me AND for our marriage, I couldn't believe he felt no loyalty or gratitude. I probably vacillated in part b/c of this, and a stubbornness AND fear, actually.

I can honestly say if h had a stroke, I'd have wiped his bottom till the day one of us passed away. But guess what? HE WILL NOT DO THE SAME...

H did not have my back when i really needed him most. I'm not a needy w. But when I I really did need him, he was not there.

I will NOT refer to this as an "MLC" b/c it's far more likely a pattern of behavior that (although not entirely consistent with MLC), is irrelevant.

AND the bottoms line is now, that ultimately H has decided his needs are now brazenly the only thing that matter to him.

Here is what I know...

Possibly the only upside of having a neurological event that leaves you feeling terrified, very foggy, with some unclear thinking, & new unpleasant but temporary lifestyle
changes,

and waking up and seeing all of your family and friends from elementary school, around you with love and support and concern...MINUS your MD husband...

it clarifies things for you.

 This ^^ was like lightning struck� b/c suddenly it was so clear that H was NOT a man I could rely on, even when it was really truly important. My family was appalled. I was hurt, but I became very resolute as well. His indifference or discomfort or guilt or whatever, was something I could not have in my life anymore. Maybe he'd change, I wondered, but there were other things in him that had become increasingly difficult (the election made him FURIOUS, though not at me. Just a real drag to be around).

H now posts on FB with his "new honey" and how he wants to introduce her to his family. Wow, we are still married. OUR children are not very excited. But the long time friends and nieces and nephews were "shocked".

Thank GOD I was warned not to go on fb that day.

I have since blocked him (but before hand I had not looked at his page more than once).

Before going to the "lessons I've learned AND OR AM learning", I will mention a thing about divorce itself...

it's worse than I thought in some ways, but it can be better in others. Money issues aside, though they matter.

It's worse b/c H has dropped off the planet since we now have NO contact with each other now. This is very expensive as it means lawyers for every single thing.

But H is so conflict avoidant (or cowardly dishonest?)
that he avoids even texting me to say a check was written or a bill paid. So I have to look at the bank online to see if something magically happened that day.

So in a way it's like a death, only no one is giving me food or life insurance proceeds.

It's worse in that h is fighting me on nearly everything, and has cancelled policies (against court orders) threatened to quit his job or really did, just to avoid paying, and just been unexpectedly crappy.

We no longer have real estate now and no custody issues so it's all about the numbers.

At the start He nagged and nagged me to "mediate this". He was incredulous I would not say anything but to "use the formula in the law."

I know how h is, and his "offer" seems to be the minimum amount required by law. Not very tempting. Especially due to my recent medical misadventure.

Of course the OW adds a nice piece to all this (like a turd on top of a $h1t cake,

and he's absolutely flaunting and over compensating. He's 60 and talking like a teenager - and those are words from my teenager niece. Unfortunately she saw his fb posts too....

Seeing money spent on him and his present life away, hurts but is not really a divorce issue per se. I mean, I've had fun with friends and that's b/c I'm not going into hibernation. (No, I'm not dating yet. Someday I will). So I suppose it would go both ways.

ANYHOW

UPSIDES to divorce...don't scoff or wince, I'm telling you there are some and I'm not even done with it. I don't "like" it, but I'm learning about dealing with what is AND by extension,

what is better without him. When I really face the negatives of marriage to h, it's bittersweet b/c it means I put up with things that made me unhappy and realistically would have always had to do so. H needed admiration to a point that no wife could sustain long term. I know his LL is words of affirmation and I literally complimented him every single day. He'd ASK me how he looked, he'd tell me his cholesterol levels and weight and how many push ups he had done, etc. I'm shaking my head now b/c it sounds so narcissistic and yet, there I was...

Once the D is settled and I know exactly what my budget is, here are upsides

1) removing negatives of h. When honest with myself, it's almost embarrassing to see what I must have hidden from. But he was very controlling and critical the least few years...

2) Find work that matters to ME (not what are the best hours for the kids, must have no nights and weekends, etc)

and for the first time in my adult life

NOT factor in h or 3 children into the job I do OR Places I go.

NOT factor my 3 lovely children in where I live for best schools, closest to their activities, etc. (Someday when I'm a grandma, that can change and it'll be because I want it to.)

I am decorating my condo the way I like it. No, it's not the huge home H and I bought in 2004, in which h spent so little time. But it's to MY taste.

It's smaller but gosh it's a lot easier for ME to maintain. There is room for my children when they visit and it's in an urban area for my first time. (I'm basically an urban hipster now)

I will travel when I want to and where I want to, with or without a companion. For sure it'll be without the endless constraints of H's work.

Without h, someday I will be available to meet a man who would have my back, and my needs would be met in the new R.

AND OR I will be happy with many friends and family members and hobbies and meaningful work.

I am hurt of course. But most days, I am at peace. I am healing.

Because I do know, deep down, that I will be alright. And that gives me peace and some healing, right now. The faith that this gets better is a must and it really is true.

I've said 100 times that "grief/healing is not a linear process".

I'm really taking this^^ in every day.

You WILL make progress and you WILL backslide. We are all human.

I have given out GAL advice and detachment advice, probably 1000 times.

So I am taking my own advice (easier said than done sometimes).

But I can't see another way around healing long term, other than to GAL to detach. I just don't have one.

A new R is not GAL and feels insane to me right now, since it's blatantly reactive. Not really fair to the OP either. (Unless you mean a "How Stella Got her Groove Back" type of r, which - hey, you never know).

Sometimes we are in too much pain to move much. Or we are obsessing and OR we can't sleep. I still say GAL helps, but for when you "just can't"...

Here are some "first aid" things that have helped me and may help you.

Pray to whomever you perceive as being there for you. For me, it's God. And sometimes I reach out to my deceased parents (just in case they have some pull

)

Incidentally, in my case, I do NOT pray for reconciliation. (I did 10 years ago, but I don't now.)

I pray for guidance & strength to face whatever comes, and to set a good example for my children.

I thank God for the fact that I'm here, I'm alive, and I have love in my life.

If I were the real WAS (even though some would argue that I am b/c I filed), or if I felt that I had really mostly caused the end of the m,

yes I might well pray for reconciliation but the road to recon would be the same. Guidance, strength to do the right thing and setting a good example for my children.
So the prayer would be essentially similar.

* Somewhere in there, forgiveness would play a huge role but I can't even go there at the moment.

Other first aids, ranting to a few SAFE DISCREET people like my sisters or closest friends who encourage and don't add to the anger.

I listen to or watch Helpful pieces on healing & happiness and grief. Not angry stuff b/c that would consume ME and I cannot tolerate intense anger in a healthy way, for very long.

At this point it feels like anger would reduce the number of my years on this planet.
I mean that.

A shockingly helpful podcast/TED Talk (which I chose to help me sleep!) was about the "subjunctive" and I thought it would be about grammar

I was wrong. !

Instead, it was a Vietnamese refugee who came to America and learned the terms "would have/could have/should have" which are NOT in his native tongue OR in his culture.

And because of those words or because of our tendencies, those terms exist,

he researched about how our western culture does a lot more ruminating than his.

So, though we must learn from our mistakes or be bound to repeat them, we must also learn to accept what is, and to move forward.

I woke up to listen to it again. Talk about a divine sign!

*Watching the TED Talks about positive psychology by Sean Achor and Amy Cuddy are wildly popular and useful short pieces on how to become happier. There's real data out there that shows even the simplest tweaks, done consistently, we can feel better faster.

The film "Happy" is a documentary with good research behind it. On netflix I think.

Talks about how people who are fundamentally happy, are affected by adversity and heartbreak just like others - but we bounce back faster.

Why? How? Because most of our happiness long term, really is within our control. The film is very worth watching.

The happiest people in our world are those who focus on intrinsic values (not extrinsic) and it's about

1) meaningful connections with others who are actively in their lives, (friends, family, a sense of belonging)

a sense of purpose in your work or life, and

a belief that you are a good person inherently.

(If you have unresolved issues from childhood that undermine your belief that you deserve happiness, that's something you can work on!)

This does not mean living under a bridge is fine, b/c your buddies are there.

No, it's true that basic needs and some financial security do matter. You have to pay rent.

But once the basics of shelter and food are attained, research shows that then doubling your salary does NOT double your happiness.

VERSUS Unhappy people, e.g. MLCers, serial WAS's or serial adulterers,

are looking for "more prestige/status" and validation from others,

more money or professional success/achievement, and more admiration/popularity.

None of that comes from within them, and if they choose the wrong people to need it from,

or if they are true narcissist, then woe to those who marry them.

You will never be enough to them, but you really are enough, for you. And if you are not, then you will be, b/c you are reading on a site like this, to get you there

Div Busting can and does work. But as Jack3beans once said, it's mostly for US, and sometimes it really helps a marriage.

If I knew 10 years ago, what I know now would I do things differently? YES.

Would I DB?...yes.

It's the post recon that I would do very differently...the TRUE PIECING is when both parties say and mean they want the marriage to succeed. Piecing is not when the WAS makes an overture or when the LBSer starts DBing and sees some progress.

Real piecing is when both partners are putting both feet back into the marriage or into a new better one.

You must come up with tools to make sure things are different and better. Or they will revert.

Both h and I said we wanted to remain m, and when we were at Retrovaille I believe we both meant it. H seemed to have a painful breakthrough and at the moment I know he really saw the damage he had done.

Perhaps it was too hard for h to feel such remorse b/c it borders on shame and in my h's case, shame always always reverted to blame. But his mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer around that time and the whole piecing seemed to recede b/c we were reconciled and now it was all about his mother...

But imo, Piecing, reconciling, new tools - nothing, not even a religious experience, can help you long term, if you don't keep at it.

Permanent changes you both agree to, will need to be made. I'm not just discussing transparency or things about adultery. In fact, I'm mostly referring to better conflict resolution.

If you do not BOTH learn to become comfortable "enough" with uncomfortable topics, one or both of you will withhold information the other needs, and one or both of you will resent the other.

And that ^^ innocuous sounding "conflict avoidance" builds within, and erodes the marriage.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Real piecing is when both partners are putting both feet back into the marriage or into a new better one.

You must come up with tools to make sure things are different and better. Or they will revert.

In fact, I'm mostly referring to better conflict resolution.

Oh - 25 I am so sorry to hear this - although I knew that you had moved cross country - and since you started posting again I suspected something like this was happening.

So I read a lot of the above book but I will have to re-read it again to follow it all.

Do you think your husband ever finished his MLC and really recovered or has he just reverted to this strange behavior all over again?
Do you really think that conflict resolution would have kept this from happening?

I must admit some of the other reconciled people I know have had similar things happen.
Having met J3B last fall, I can tell you he was not really fully reconciled either.
His wife still had issues for sure.

Well I send my best and hope you can keep moving forward in whats best for YOU!

Still rambling a bit but bear with me please...

SIGNS/SYMPTOMS...

Yes, there were triggering events in the decade that followed our reconciliation, like both our mothers dying, and a brief deployment of his, several puzzling behaviors, his comments about financial fears he mostly created.

I�m just not sure those^^ matter b/c the triggering events happen to all of us in life.

H barely dealt with his mother's death beyond a few visits and the funeral week. But had ALL her furniture shipped to us and stored, rather than HE go through it. 7 years later...still in storage and now my children and I get to do it.

Losing my mom suddenly was the worst thing that ever happened to me. We dropped our youngest off at college the same month, so for the first time in 30 years I had no child at home, and had lost the role of daughter. Plus, side note, we were an hour from the d's college when we heard a gunshot and came upon a murder victim. Very surreal and horrible.

Then we moved 2 weeks later to a place where I had no friends but h had worked for 3 years. All so he could "finally" get his pension.

This 6 week period in my life made me reel. H was pretty mediocre. Not horrible but just not particularly kind. After Christmas (my mom's birthday) I was functioning pretty well and looking for work as it was "MY turn" since H was retiring soon...or so he said.

Look, I can go on with details about how he said one thing but did another...I literally could write that for a week, which is why it's taken me so long to put this out here!

10 years ago I spent way way too much time asking why or how he could do this.

I spent way too much time wondering what the he11 h was doing/planning/feeling/thinking�or what I had done.

I don�t have that kind of time to waste anymore. And there truly are NO "Good" answers.

SO- I will spend a certain amount of time per day (and then per week and then not at all) looking at what I could do differently if I had it all to do over again.

And I will ONLY spend a certain amount of time per day (and then every other day and then every week and eventually only a few times a year),

allowing myself to mourn the loss of a long marriage.

I will enjoy and embrace my new life.
I know I will do this b/c The alternative is unacceptable

DIVORCE BUSTING

NO I can�t say I did anything �wrong� in DBing. In fact, I don�t have regrets there. We did reconcile and without DBing, the marriage would have ended 10 years ago. Would that have been better for me? MAYBE....I'd be 10 years younger, so who knows?

What I do know is that our daughters wanted very badly not to move again. I am responsible for achieving that by DBing. They have friends they knew for 10 of their formative years and to whom they're still close. That's a win.

MLC? MAYBE H is just not who he once was, or who I thought he was and regardless, he's not the spouse for me. I honestly no longer care about the terms "MLC" very much. A little, but not much.

I truly thought H & I were past the Alaskan obsession, & maybe we were past it or it was just dormant. Or maybe he was eventually faking and biding his time for 10 years.

***OR MAYBE we reconciled as I thought- but the underlying issues in our marriage and or in him, were not fully explored AND resolved.

I tend to think this^^, at the moment.

A few months after reconciling and attending Retrovaille, (Which was a great thing)
H�s mother was diagnosed with terminal cancer.

In retrospect, we should have somehow  �checked in� more often. I recall h being very irritable back then, post recon, but I didn�t want to push too much when his mother was dying.

I distinctly recall telling a DB friend that I didn�t want to kick h when he was down.

So I realize I let a lot slide. NOT saying I should have made h pay or suffer more to reconcile, at all. That's destructive. I do not believe in being punitive. That's just not our jobs.

However I sure wish we had explored the roots of it more, once we had established piecing. It's as if I had Not gotten any real "marriage insurance", which does not ever ever guarantee a lasting m, but would not have hurt.

By that, I mean some sort of barometer to check in and to regularly ask about the r, without being negative. Just because h didn't bring up Alaska again (the financial arrangement up there was NOT what he envisioned and our family finances took a hit we never really recovered from).

I never once threw that in his face, but it spoke for itself. In retrospect, I wonder if H blamed me?)

Anyway he often seemed restless and created chaos in the home. Gone "commuting" for most of the years in the past decade and that is POST reconciliation. UGH, I am mortified just to write that. And of course our youngest d19 feels unloved by h. How can she not?

And his conflict resolution skills only briefly improved but when I disagreed, he almost always got his way anyhow (I actually cannot think of when things went my way but I'll spot him a few).

When I filed for divorce, I had been put in an impossible situation. H was up in Alaska pretending or even believing I�d join him later. Or not caring b/c he saw Other women around.

But I overheard him telling one employer I'd be joining him "as soon as our daughter returns to college". Which was a total lie. Why lie ABOUT me? Bad enough to lie TO me.

Who knows? Who cares?

Here is what I do know.

1) I could not DB to reconcile again. For ME, it was a once in a lifetime thing.

DBing for me? Yes

That doesn't mean I'm not GAL or detaching.

As for any hope of reconciling. Hey, I say "never say never" all the time.

So while I am Not saying that H could not radically change & wake up or find some weird explanation for all this from all his childhood issues (dad was alcoholic military and mother was mentally ill but loving)

--- I�m saying I cannot & do not expect it. I cannot wait for it. I am not positive I want that. Because for this Crap to happen again, means he�s not the man he once was OR he never was.

Realistically It would take so much change in him & actual brave inner work, to arrive to a place where I'd even consider trusting him, is just not realistic. It's not about punishing him, it's about me only wanting trustworthy people in my life.

Plus, if he showed up on my door tomorrow, I'd know it had not happened. It's the type of work that years of effort require. And he's too proud. �

The TIME MACHINE WE ALL WISH WE HAD

When I say I miss him, other than day to day things I know we both enjoyed b/c in many many ways we were well suited...what I really am mourning

is 1 of 2 things.

1) The past

It's as if I want a time machine to go back to what we once had, b/c it was damn good. And for years I held onto what we once had b/c I believed we could get there again...so I missed the past marriage. Some folks don't really have that, but they miss something else.

AND OR

2) the hoped for future - I missed what I felt we were going to have, what I hoped we'd have. Traveling in our retirement years (which we could be doing now, btw) sharing hobbies, building a lovely home...visiting our children...

But what our marriage had actually become, and the behavior and contempt with which h treated me much more recently, is totally unacceptable. I doubt h would ever file for D. Too "conflict avoidant" and it won't play well with his victim image.

So without a time machine to go backwards to what was, back then,

or forward to what MIGHT have been, is impossible.

And frankly, the future I hoped for was unlikely to happen with the man my h had become, anyhow.

H is endlessly restless like some but not all, doctors. Always striving, never arriving.

H has something to prove, to God knows who. But that's his sandbox, not mine.

Finally, (for now at least) our children saw h's recent fb posts about the great OW.

S30 was concerned for me & reached out about how I was feeling. Also says his dad is "mentally ill, substitutes his own reality for ours"...(And I'm so co-dependent my first
reaction to that was of concern for h!! SMH)

Anyhow,
I chose to be authentic but reassuring b/c this is my son. I said I was "very surprised & disappointed. But I'll be fine in time. No worries"

Our son's reply - "Mom, yes you will be fine. Say Good riddance to lunacy.

You are bound for so much more happiness now, than you would be otherwise."

Though bittersweet to hear from my our son, this^^ actually helps me a lot. I think it's true about my happiness being more than what it would have likely been.

My happiness now does not have to revolve around the shifting goals of h and what MIGHT make him less restless or more content...

sorry for the length of this

Originally Posted By: Cadet

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Real piecing is when both partners are putting both feet back into the marriage or into a new better one.

You must come up with tools to make sure things are different and better. Or they will revert.

In fact, I'm mostly referring to better conflict resolution.

Oh - 25 I am so sorry to hear this - although I knew that you had moved cross country - and since you started posting again I suspected something like this was happening.

So I read a lot of the above book but I will have to re-read it again to follow it all.

Do you think your husband ever finished his MLC and really recovered or has he just reverted to this strange behavior all over again?

Hi Cadet,

It's extremely hard to be objective about this^^. Because I do see and hear from family members things they noticed, now that I did not really take in before. Things have been said to me like "no offense but your h was always selfish, h was oblivious to other's feelings, h outsourced empathy to you"...

I do know that While active duty, the military moves you so often you don't get a chance to be restless. H grew up in a military family so in a way he maybe addicted to chaos b/c he so very often created it in our lives.

The "MLC" of Alaska the first time, was such an epic fail for him, I'm sure he was mortified.

But it was his mother' illness that got us out of there so he never had to openly tell his heroes they had let him down or he had mishandled anything. No real resolution.

Do you really think that conflict resolution would have kept this from happening?

Real Conflict resolution ? Specifying the lessons learned and how to avoid the mistakes again, would for sure have helped.

Conflict resolution itself?? Well I think so - The past 10 years at least, When he didn't get his way he either fumed about it till we caved, or deceived and got his way anyhow, or openly got his way anyhow and called it something else. He did compromise before we had lived in Alaska. Sometimes I wish we had never gone but I can honestly say that agreeing to that assignment was, at the time, the most loving thing I had ever done for someone.

So maybe the question is, what if I had learned to enforce boundaries earlier?

What if h had learned how to be content with the glorious family & life we had created??
What if he had not lost his religious faith?

Yes, those^ things would have made a difference to all of our family.

Also, sidnenote - when you truly believe down deep that you are a good person who deserves love, but you screw up, you just own it.

You apologize partly b/c you know that admitting a mistake does not make you a loser.

Somehow h never really acted as if he believed ^^This. The only mistakes he ever admitted to were the smallest of things like not setting the alarm right. Nothing that hurt someone was admitted, that I can recall at the moment. Looking back, that seems really significant. Plus, when I apologized for something, it rarely calmed him.

But like I said, it's extremely difficult to be objective at the moment. I know a lot of what did NOT help and perhaps by practicing DB, we lasted longer.

Still, I feel like we really made breakthroughs in Retrovaille and there was such a closeness and openness and forgiveness then.

I probably held onto those moments of clarity too long.

On our 34th anniversary h made a toast to me and thanked me for all my sacrifices and he began to cry (h was not a crier). He hugged me and kept saying "i'm so so sorry".

I was touched although taken aback. He also talked of how the next move would be my turn. This was another moment of clarity that I held onto...for too long.

Then my mom died the next day. So, who knows? It's like the moments of painful clarity he had, somehow always raised shame in him

and that shame thing, for my h, was absolutely too much. From what I recall, whenever guilt or remorse lasted in him for more than a minute, or that was not immediately fully forgiven & forgotten,

always always converted into blame. You could not discuss how we (or he) would not repeat it b/c of the damage done, you just had to accept his one sentence apology like the one he gave our d for missing 2 years of her life. A "sorry I missed so much. But I'm here now", which did not appease her feelings of being unloved, very much.

I must admit some of the other reconciled people I know have had similar things happen.
Having met J3B last fall, I can tell you he was not really fully reconciled either.
His wife still had issues for sure.

J3B and I were in contact a lot and his words of support then, would echo now. They would be what my own journal from 2007 said. "IF this happens again, walk away and don't look back." I miss J3B.

And It's the not looking back that is much harder than I thought.

Well I send my best and hope you can keep moving forward in whats best for YOU!

Reading my own notes from long ago, helps me move forward possibly more than anything else.

This place has value no matter what happens to the marriage itself.

I am so incredibly sad to hear this, 25.

I really admire and look up to you. I hope you find the happiness you seek.

Good heavens...I am speechless.

Also, you're incredibly inspiring.

Thornton

Thank you. I've been sad about it. Resolute, but also very sad.

More than one person says h is ill, "gone rogue" or just super selfish. He was darn mean after i was sick. Just ugly. And for nothing, so I knew he was out, no matter what else he said when asked. And it was incredibly clarifying as to what I had to do.

He's either mentally ill but functioning, or an actual narcissist (which, btw, does not reflect well on me or make me a victim)

or he became a person who says nothing that bothers him and then lashes out and leaves but never ever really owns that he's actually doing the leaving. That would not look good. So he practically dared me to file for D.

Irrelevant. As for that^^, my S30's comment "Good riddance to lunacy" is a mantra.

That^^ is his sandbox and I have my own sandbox to work on, b/c I am absolutely flawed.

I don't think I "wasted" 10 years with him (which would stink)-

but factoring him at all in my life's choices now, would be a waste.

For purposes of choosing my next move, it will be with the idea that he's passed away or on Mars.

H simply cannot factor in or I'll be reacting to him the rest of my life. Been there, done that.

And I am mostly at peace. Regrets? Sure. Financial worries? Some.

But increasingly I feel release from that weird sick feeling you get about a m, like what are they REALLY thinking but you ask and they don't say and you feel uneasy...well,

he IS gone and I am still alive. I don't have to wonder anymore. And my children and family still love me. I can eat gluten again, Do volunteer work that h would've treated dismissively.

Sometimes, more often lately, I get excited about my future without him

Yikes, ^ That statement itself is a little sad, but I'm not dealing with "Shoulda/coulda/woulda" (the "subjunctives") anymore.

The divorce itself stinks and is incredibly distressing. Really. But it won't last forever. (Right??)

This is where I am now. So what's next?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

When I say I miss him, other than day to day things I know we both enjoyed b/c in many many ways we were well suited...what I really am mourning is 1 of 2 things.

1) The past

It's as if I want a time machine to go back to what we once had, b/c it was damn good. And for years I held onto what we once had b/c I believed we could get there again...so I missed the past marriage. Some folks don't really have that, but they miss something else.

AND OR

2) the hoped for future - I missed what I felt we were going to have, what I hoped we'd have. Traveling in our retirement years (which we could be doing now, btw) sharing hobbies, building a lovely home...visiting our children...

Good lord....that ^^^ makes War and Peace look like a Reader's Digest story....

Whew...

: )

Ya know what ??

I would be a lot more worried about you if you didn't feel that way..

I think the key is, that you should miss those things. And I think that it's pretty normal to see them in that way.

See them for what they were, and still are without distorting an entire relationship together. Try not to demonize him to justify the decisions that you are making now. And I don't think that you are. It just becomes too terribly easy to use that anger as a diving platform to get from the kiddie pool to the big girl pool, ya know ?

I was telling someone the other day, that even after almost 10 years, I still try to honor my wedding vows.

I still love the girl that I married and walked down the aisle to me. There will always be a special place for her, regardless what has transpired between us.

I still choose to honor her, by not talking schidt about her, and being okay with her choices, and generally living a good life for myself

I still cherish the memories that we made together, and the children that I am a Father to that are one half of her...to dis-respect her, is to disrespect half of them too.

I get asked a lot about forgiveness...

I'm not sure that ^^^ is it, but somehow, I feel that it's pretty close..

Maybe it's a combination of acceptance and forgiveness...

Either way...

So where do you wanna be 25 ???

25,

As usual, you find such a beautiful way of writing such tough subject matter and do it in a way we all relate to. Thinking about you.

All the best,
Trying

(((25)))

I have been waiting for this post, but also dreading it, because I had a gut feeling this was coming. And you know what I have learned from this DB life? That my gut knows best. Sigh.

My heart raced as I read this because 1. It aches for you and what you have endured (you are an incredible woman who deserves all the good in life), and 2. I see so much of my story in yours. There are many details I have not included, but we have a lot in common and we think very much alike! ... So admittedly I think I have lost some faith in my M, I am sad to say, but I have.

I started reading here about 3 years ago and I remember your posts--your strength, your intellect, how you worded things, and the advice in itself was golden--and more than what you shared, but that you gave me hope. So I want to thank you for that and for getting me through so many hard, and terribly painful, days.

And you still give me hope. As you so eloquently outline here: DB is for us before saving our M. I believe that wholeheartedly. Even though I am still very much in the piecing stages, I think it's something we all need to understand and accept. It's taken me years to get here.

Thank you, 25, for everything. I am so sorry for how things turned out and for the loss of a dream. I just know that there is something "better" for you. I know you will find it and thrive, and maybe much more so than if he had stayed.

Blu

I'm sorry and glad to read your story 25. Like others I read your posts and your advice has helped me through some difficult times. Knowing you online has been a gift.

It is sad to read of a reconciliation that didn't sustain in the longer term but I am glad for how good you sound. Many aspects of your story resonated with me. I was also the wife of a commuting, successful man. Not easy.

You have many blessings in your life and you count them. Whilst you will of course mourn the end of your marriage, there are also upsides & you are enjoying those too. Like you, I struggle with the great rift. XH and I have no contact, and whilst contact wouldn't really work for me given all circumstances, I don't like that there is a chasm there, where there was once a R. I don't know the answer to that.

From the bottom of my heart I wish you well and I hope you'll keep posting to share your journey.

Xxx

Originally Posted By: Mach1

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

When I say I miss him, other than day to day things I know we both enjoyed b/c in many many ways we were well suited...what I really am mourning is 1 of 2 things.

1) The past

It's as if I want a time machine to go back to what we once had, b/c it was damn good. And for years I held onto what we once had b/c I believed we could get there again...so I missed the past marriage. Some folks don't really have that, but they miss something else.

AND OR

2) the hoped for future - I missed what I felt we were going to have, what I hoped we'd have. Traveling in our retirement years (which we could be doing now, btw) sharing hobbies, building a lovely home...visiting our children...

Good lord....that ^^^ makes War and Peace look like a Reader's Digest story....

Whew...

: )

Mach, I had so many variations of my Tome, that I finally felt like in the interest of disclosure to just put it out. THANKS for trying to read it and for finding something above that was recently learned by me

Yes - the whole time machine piece of this. If only.....

Ya know what ??

I would be a lot more worried about you if you didn't feel that way..

I think the key is, that you should miss those things. And I think that it's pretty normal to see them in that way.

See them for what they were, and still are without distorting an entire relationship together. Try not to demonize him to justify the decisions that you are making now. And I don't think that you are. It just becomes too terribly easy to use that anger as a diving platform to get from the kiddie pool to the big girl pool, ya know ?

You are not kidding. I've always known in my HEAD that anger wasn't useful (and btw, it never ever worked in my marriage anyhow). At least not the past several years.

So it is not going to help ME now, so that's all that matters.

Oh and because the anger that sometimes creeps in, can overtake and consume. Just makes you sick.

If it is "justice" that we want, we must accept that first, NO, life is not fair.

(In the grand scheme of things if we are reading this while knowing half the world uses dung for heat, we are already proving life isn't fair.

Not to mention the friends or family we all know who died young, or who face challenges far beyond our heartbreak, as bad as this feels...)

But let's say my h never faces the trail of destruction his choices created, let's say he successfully hides from them, and at least seems super happy in his new life with his new friends - and let's say that lasts for decades - till he leaves the planet Let's say there is not even a deathbed regret uttered...okay, seems like he "Got away" with something, which might be true.

So, what are MY options?

for ME to be happy for decades till I leave the planet. That's without the whole "attract them back" piece, which is not on my radar, frankly.

If you want to "lessen the score" you have to realize the only "points" we can make are our own.

We cannot decrease their points or lessen their happiness, unless you want to go all "Fatal Attraction" on them and then we lessen our own score and our children's, too.

So we minimize our losses - by maxing out on our gains. We do what makes us happier or more at peace or brings us joy and balance. Especially if there were things we were not able to do while married to our spouses. Mine was a health nut who scoffed at all gluten, but my dad became a chef the second half of his life and I reaking LIKE to cook & eat French & Italian food. Anyhow, that's a small example.

So We live well. However that looks and whatever it takes, that is what WE do

I can & do "know" in my heart , that my h lost a devoted loyal loving woman (who, I might add, is damn hilarious). I lost a man I once loved and admired deeply. But it's quite possible that man went away long ago and I just didn't know, or he became part time, or whatever. He's gone now.

I can KNOW that he missed out on so much of our children's lives...so very much he will never know...the nights of tucking them in & hearing about their fears and dreams, the drives to school and events, daily, both ways and that's when you learn about your child's LIFE and that is how they know about YOURS and my God I would not give that up for anything...

it does not matter IF h ever really realizes what he lost...(the truth itself might not matter to him, OR the truth might destroy him. I truly am not sure).

But I do know what I gained.

I was telling someone the other day, that even after almost 10 years, I still try to honor my wedding vows.

I still love the girl that I married and walked down the aisle to me. There will always be a special place for her, regardless what has transpired between us.

I hope and think I will get there^^. At the moment a lot of things that once brought me joy, now bring me pain right.

I was in the grocery store and our wedding song came on. It paralyzed me. Church and our private personal prayers, made me weep.

I still choose to honor her, by not talking schidt about her,

Interesting viewpoint and I want to have it.

I have a question/remark. I have always told my kids their dad loves them, (even in the face of long absences and weird behavior.) I mean, for years. And in his goony way, I really believe he does love them.

But after his OW and SO HAPPY FB posts, they told me clearly, "Do not tell us Dad loves us. Do not defend dad anymore..."

That was clear... I have to respect their wishes, but man, that was unexpected.

I think they want me to just move on and that defending him, or saying he loves them, sounds as if I am not. But I am.

and being okay with her choices, and generally living a good life for myself

I still cherish the memories that we made together, and the children that I am a Father to that are one half of her...to dis-respect her, is to disrespect half of them too.

Yes^^^.

I get asked a lot about forgiveness...

I'm not sure that ^^^ is it, but somehow, I feel that it's pretty close..

Maybe it's a combination of acceptance and forgiveness...

Either way...

I did it before, I can do it again, I think. Money issues bother me (its a fear b/c I gave up a lot for his career)

but in the long run after the ordeal is done, I think I'll be okay and then, I THINK (but am not positive) that tensions between us will lessen.

God I hope so.

So where do you wanna be 25 ???

Well, I made a list of things I mourned the loss of, by having the marriage end.

Which included living and traveling overseas, rehabbing a house, maintaining a certain standard of living, a bucket list of sorts, and such, ETC

Then I looked at the list and started thinking of ways for me to do at least some of this^^ list, without h.

And happily, I find that there ARE several things I wanted and hoped to do with h, that I can do without him.

Is that what you mean?

Originally Posted By: BluWave

(((25)))

I have been waiting for this post, but also dreading it, because I had a gut feeling this was coming. And you know what I have learned from this DB life? That my gut knows best. Sigh.

My heart raced as I read this because 1. It aches for you and what you have endured (you are an incredible woman who deserves all the good in life), and 2. I see so much of my story in yours. There are many details I have not included, but we have a lot in common and we think very much alike! ... So admittedly I think I have lost some faith in my M, I am sad to say, but I have.

I started reading here about 3 years ago and I remember your posts--your strength, your intellect, how you worded things, and the advice in itself was golden--and more than what you shared, but that you gave me hope. So I want to thank you for that and for getting me through so many hard, and terribly painful, days.

And you still give me hope. As you so eloquently outline here: DB is for us before saving our M. I believe that wholeheartedly. Even though I am still very much in the piecing stages, I think it's something we all need to understand and accept. It's taken me years to get here.

Thank you, 25, for everything. I am so sorry for how things turned out and for the loss of a dream. I just know that there is something "better" for you. I know you will find it and thrive, and maybe much more so than if he had stayed.

Blu

Blu, this means more to me than you can know.
((( )))

Sotto,

Blu, Mach, Thornton and all who post (I'm missing others but for now, will continue)

it means a lot to come to this place.

Am I all fine and happy? No. Of course not. But I'm dealing. I'm coping. I am not huddling.

There are days I want to and days I think that it's good I have a dog or I would not have wanted to go out.

My car arrives next week (could not drive for 6 months, which is up next week).

So my GAL and new therapist and reaching out to old friends who say they are there for me and most will be,

will have to really increase.

The good news?? I don't have a large capacity for misery, that I can sustain. I cannot be depressed for long.

But this is not depression so much as grief. I will grieve and I will deal. I won't become paralyzed by staring at it but I won't run away from it b/c then it pushes you in a direction or relationship you are not choosing freely.

I'll process it. I will get through it.

The past 18 months I have lost my mom, our last child went to college, (had the whole homicide weirdness tossed in) we sold our home and moved to a place I have since left, again, and the marriage ended.

Oh, and out of nowhere I had a few grand mal seizures (you know, the sexy kind).

I'm doing my best and for the most part the authentic feedback I get is that I'm doing really well. My health became THE focus, so in some ways I put the marriage crisis on the back burner.

one big goal i have is to feel more purpose in my life, and that has to do with a lot of loss or roles (not a daughter, not a wife, less of a mom, etc) not employed yet,

and that will come.

But I have identified it as a nagging sense of self doubt, plus the seizure thing hurt my memory and I hate stuff that makes me feel less brilliant

or, God forbid, forget a punch line.

So I'm working on it.

I deeply appreciate your feedback. Seriously.

25, I'm so sorry to hear what has happened. I too read your sitch when I first came to the board and like Blu I waited for your update, dreading the worse but hoping fot the best.

You remain an inspiration to me as even having to go through this for a second time you still have the strength to provide us newbies with hope.

I think sometimes people just don't see what is in front of them and instead chase dreams to make themselves happy. I am not surprised that your family have lost respect for your H, especially with the way he treated you when you were unwell and with flaunting the OW.

You sound like DB'ing the first time around has made you a much stronger person this time and I believe that's a place we all want to get to even if we don't save our marriages.

(((25))), keep posting. I appreciate are all your nuggets of wisdom...

25

I guessed and wondered when the flood gates were going to open.

And it's ok and going Alaskan is travelling to a place inside WH head. I don't go to MLC land because I don't believe MLC exists. That's my view and actually it doesn't matter much whether MLC does or not. The DSM does not include MLC as a disorder and those folk are wiser than me.

This very last period of your M sounds like a phase of abuse to me, classic lies, mirrors and gaslighting. And OW, always OW exist somewhere in entitled land called Alaska.

I always felt your sitch like that of Rosalindas was crazy loco WH territory (I read your threads when I was new here), much like my own with a disappearing WH whose head (and other apendages) are in foreign parts. There are a few of them, Russian, Italian, Alaska, Texan and just plain loco land. There is no way through these strange territories other than straight. No stopping.

The abuse messes with one's head and emotions. Eventually the abuser's mask slips and the truth can no longer be avoided.

Sometimes, in the midst on concentrating on our M on our DB, we forget that we are enough, truly we are enough. Good enough and just ordinary enough to be enough.

Unless the abuser is diagnoised as disordered then in reality the type of disorder matters little. If a disorder is systemic or becomes systemic then abuse in is in the abuser all along. It was there throughout and only masked. There is no way to know until we do. Once you know then you can never unknow.

Abusers decompensate with age, the personality disintegrates with age as the veneer of normality wears thin and the aged abuser become emptier.

The wise (as such you are) grow more complex, more stable and much more grounded. The wise age well and become more authentic whereas the decompensated less so, more masked; the abusers ego is involved and shows through transparent and the veneer wears thin. The decompensated personality seeks it's haven and desire externally whereas the answer is found intrinsic not extrinsic.

An avoidant spouse in D is showing true high conflict colours. Being Alaskan is the ultimate not in avoidance but in the art of ignorance and punishment. Cold empathy and the silent treatment is the highest level of covert abuse. Silent treatment is not NC as NC involves dealing with matters and having the sense of finality and self protection. Alaska is not a dream or destination for success, to me it is a symbol of the rabbit hole that Alice went to wonderland. The folks in Alaska can of course be happy and no doubt Alaska is beautiful, wild and free. This isn't knocking Alaska as a destination, nor Russia nor Italy or Texan or the rabbit hole. It is the thought that this other place is one of perfection where all is right with the world. Addiction and delusion travels in the backpack of the decompensating abuser.

We take our troubles with us wherever we go. We can go to the most beautiful spot in the world and we can still take our disorder and abusave nature with us.

I believe in the human spirit and mind. I believe in its durability, it's desire to grow and shift. And even in Alaska the true loving spirit can live with love.

There is something I know more than this, that the higher spirit soars after adversity, that there is post traumatic growth that it's real and true.

You stood on a thin ledge in high wind holding the kite of love. What is done in love is never done badly or without purpose. You endured and loved.

Eventually as I let go then I said I love and loved the Giggalo, I wish him well, I want him happy and in Italy. I love me more and I want me well and in my home. I will not be abused. I read this in your words too.

Much as I know as intuitively as I can that Karma is already in the heart of a wayward, wanting Alaska and escape down a rabbit hole will not end well. I am astonished how waywardness and abusiveness ages the decompensated personality. It makes them old before their time, the eyes die.

I also know that love and self respect, growth and wisdom of age is astonishing wondrous and glorious. Post traumatic growth pushes us to strength determination and joy. Such it will be for you.

I have no sympathy for those who torment others with lies and deceit. I think they know what they do and have little conscience about it. It never ends well for them.

In every case I believe the LBS has it best, eventually the LBS says done. And the door closes, the bridge burns and the path home is barred. The wayward knows and that's when the mask slips and the depths of abuse begin. The silence is the anger of the wayward abuser. The rot on FB is designed to punish you, to triangulate and to begin the downward control over an OW. It's not real.

The Giggalo pulled the same trick with RIT (now BIT) Russian (Bratislavan) Italian Tramp, pictures, lovey dovey stuff, and ohhhs from golfing acquaintances and family. Glad you are now happy, Italy is doing wonders for you etc etc. I had to find him to serve so I followed the lead. I have the address to serve and now I don't bother at all. BIT haunts my pages and has friend requested me a few times. A dark haired Italian looking lass who the Giggalo is trying to turn into pale as moonlight!

It's all fake, as much as this OW is fake and the life is down the rabbit hole. Illusion, a mask, a nothing but scrambled eggs for brains. Makes sense to them. I questioned was it a tapeworm or tumour in the brain, too much alcohol etc....

Actually now it would be interesting to know if it is organic disease of one kind or another, perhaps curable with snow, fermented oatmeal or Apple Juice. For me just idle curiosity.

The last time I saw the Giggalo he was aged and dead behind the eyes. That was the problem his eyes were like sharks eyes devoid of feeling. I am frightened of the cold empathy and I want him gone elsewhere. If he is happy or distracted then his mind and cold eyes are not on me. I fear being a target for the rest of my life or his. The shivers run up and down my spine when I think of the damage done. Alaska is further away than Italy, a better choice.

I am both saddened for you and Relieved that you did not go down the rabbit hole to Alaska.

I wish you joy and healing. I want post traumatic growth for you. I want sunshine and beauty and freedom with all the rainbows your higher spirit can give you.

Above all peace, wisdom and health in the next phase of your life. The love you have you keep and hold for your soul. Love is beauty and a future happiness.

V

25--

As everyone here I am so sorry for this place in which you find yourself. Now I know why you seemed to really get my situation so well, you have lived the same life as me but a decade ahead. You clearly deserve better than this, but it sounds like you have to forge your own path to the better. I hear anger and I hear resolute. I see the confidence and the power.

I came to this place hoping for reconciliation, a return, a do over, something. I am beginning to see that the reconciliation is with myself, the return is to me, the do over is going to be with someone else. That is ok. It's ok for you and it's ok for me. While you were writing your post I was on the phone with a divorce lawyer, finally ready to take my path away from his disorder and his malignancy.

Mine didn't go Alaskan (about as far north as you can go without doing so), but he is the same man and the path leads the same place. I wish for you that you find the person who will be there for you in the tough times and tells you now and again how beautiful and strong you are.

25,
I have just read your posts. I have not known you long enough (as some of these wise vets have) to have predicted this, so I was really shocked to read your updated story. Since I came here, you are one of the ones I have looked to for advice, and my feelings about that will never change. I think you are so wise, strong, brave, and a great friend to this forum and all of us here. I believe your future will hold treasures unimaginable, and I'm sure I speak for all of us in saying, please continue to inspire us, but more importantly, come here for your own healing as well. We all have your back.

I do hope my situation does not get projected onto others.

there are parallels but I know some marriages do get saved and or, fixed. And if a m lasts decently for 20 more years, was DBing a "failure"?? I think not.

I think DBing is about the best program out there. I think without it, my m would have ended in 2007, and though you could argue I should have left then, remember, I'm not doing a "should have" mantra anymore. Besides, I would not be the person I am now. And I like who I am now, better.

Sometimes people would read my situation and see hope in theirs that maybe wasn't there, and I don't want people to see failure in theirs, that might not be.

This^^ is not aimed at anyone in particular, btw.

Vanilla, I'll read your posts several times, I'm sure.

Thank you.

Originally Posted By: leahsue

25,
I have just read your posts. I have not known you long enough (as some of these wise vets have) to have predicted this, so I was really shocked to read your updated story. Since I came here, you are one of the ones I have looked to for advice, and my feelings about that will never change. I think you are so wise, strong, brave, and a great friend to this forum and all of us here. I believe your future will hold treasures unimaginable, and I'm sure I speak for all of us in saying, please continue to inspire us, but more importantly, come here for your own healing as well. We all have your back.

((( )))

(((25)))

I am so sorry!! Big hug to you!

The term "MLC" is a big question mark for me now. I believe in the unresolved childhood issues but I am questioning the "coming out of it".. I read your story, I look at ex-H's way of life, I look at others from the past and I do not see things the way I used to. Piecing for me would have been a HUGE mistake. Ex-H is cycling. Always has and probably always will be. I see OW(s) been treated the way he was treating me. I actually do not wish this on anyone. Not even them.. The secrets, the lies, the love and the anger.... you all know what I am talking about..

You were and are an inspiration. Sharing your update will help, not only you but many others. Your knowledge is TRUE WISDOM.. You are a beautiful soul whom I look up to!

I feel bitterness and anger toward your soon to be ex-H. I really wish your marriage would be HAPPELY restored. since it was not and he rinsed and repeated, I think it is better this way for you. You will be relieved of so many deceptions.

I am sending you love and positive vibes and a request to God to bless you and be with you in this time of hardship! xox

Keep sharing please. We care a great deal about you!

25,

I have a tremendous amount of respect and admiration for the value that you bring to these forums. I am certainly grateful for the advice you have given to me and many other members of this incredible community.

I haven't read your thread in its entirety, but wanted to post to let you know that you are appreciated. Also, I hope that you have fully recovered from your stay in the hospital. Godspeed.

Dear LITB,

I so appreciate your words and yes, I'm better. The horrible causes were ruled out and so it's just an adjustment to the medications, an adjustment that is happening. And it's not permanent.

I think reading that cathartic tome of mine, will be even more of an achievement than writing it was.

I truly struggled with writing it all out - and then parsing what really mattered and what would help most to others and then finally just not editing or organizing anymore.

I put it out there. Not my best writing, but that's okay!

And LITB, people can and do change. People learn. If they didn't, you'd never have a recovered alcoholic.

Be well LITB

Originally Posted By: exquisitetobe

(((25)))

I am so sorry!! Big hug to you!

I appreciate your support. I really truly do.

The term "MLC" is a big question mark for me now.

It has long been a question for me & some others (see Vanilla's post on this thread). I thought h was in MLC for 2 reasons.

One, b/c I WANTED TO - b/c I somehow came to believe it was better than or more hopeful than any other option, and as far as I know there was no OW then.
But I've seen "MLCers" come back from affairs, only slightly less than those without.

But those without affair partners who actually leave - in my experience, tend to have more long run psychological issues, which I did not see in my h, then.

Second, I thought it was MLC b/c at least some of his behaviors were new and different from before.

Still, I'm just not sure how useful this ^^ info is. And now, 10 years later, the "new" behaviors of his only partly reverted. Some of the more responsible h came back, but within a year or two, some of the deceptions (not about Alaska) like about finances
were repeated, though I didn't know for a long time.

A lot of the new unappealing behaviors stuck around and morphed into being really more irritable and critical, 2 years after the "MLC" episode supposedly had ended.

Guilt converting into shame into blame? WHO KNOWS?

I'm tired of trying to figure out the motivation or emotions or plans of someone else.

I believe in the unresolved childhood issues

Well, they exist. I get that. My dad was a brilliant but alcoholic lawyer. So I read up on and learned about how that might affect me in adult life. I did that decades ago.

So many of us do resolve them - OR we don't impose our unmet needs from childhood, onto others. Bottom line, it's not acceptable for me to pick up this mess.

but I am questioning the "coming out of it".. I read your story, I look at ex-H's way of life, I look at others from the past and I do not see things the way I used to. Piecing for me would have been a HUGE mistake.

I understand the feeling you get when you begin to see things differently. I did for awhile but it was vague and I was afraid. Ironically after my mom died and that horrible series of events took place, was I aware of how much grief i really could stand.
That was why I KNEW I would not go back to Alaska...not given the givens.

But only after the hospital stay was I truly confronted with what I had, and did not have. And would never have. That was when the vacillation stopped.

As for piecing being a mistake, I assume you mean reconciling. Well, here's an anecdote that may resonate.

My uncle left my lovely aunt decades ago for OW. The OW was not his first but after the h of the OW, committed suicide, my uncle felt compelled to marry her and raise HER kids, not his own.

Anyhow, years later, the OW (now W#2) called my aunt to ask my aunt if Uncle was there!

meaning, he was cheating on the "new" wife too. And my aunt said it was truly then in her heart and head, that she knew how much more peace was in her life. No more stomach aches wondering if her xh was dead in a car crash or with OW or just really working late.

I think he did her a favor. BUT yes, I wish he had been a better man.

Likewise, I wish my h were a better man. The man he could have become, but did not.

Ex-H is cycling. Always has and probably always will be. I see OW(s) been treated the way he was treating me. I actually do not wish this on anyone. Not even them.. The secrets, the lies, the love and the anger.... you all know what I am talking about..

You were and are an inspiration. Sharing your update will help, not only you but many others. Your knowledge is TRUE WISDOM.. You are a beautiful soul whom I look up to!

I feel bitterness and anger toward your soon to be ex-H. I really wish your marriage would be HAPPELY restored. since it was not and he rinsed and repeated, I think it is better this way for you. You will be relieved of so many deceptions.

I am sending you love and positive vibes and a request to God to bless you and be with you in this time of hardship! xox

Keep sharing please. We care a great deal about you!

Thank you very much, truly

I am happy to hear that you are doing better. Especially glad it isn't permanent.

I think sometimes the unedited version is more authentic. It takes a lot of courage to share the difficulties that we encounter in life.

Like you said, people can and do change. It is amazing that when we encounter loss (M/R, job, the death of a loved one, etc.), it can be a motivational mechanism for change. You see it all over these forums from LBSes. I've also seen it from WASes.

I don't need to go on, because I'd be preaching to the choir. Essentially, this place is a blessing, filled with caring people willing to take the time to encourage complete strangers.

I'll be back to read your cathartic tome. In the meantime...((25))

Sometimes D is best for everyone involved. I'm toying with that idea myself. My fWW are "reconciled" but to be honest, she has always seemed tainted to me ever since her A. I used to think so much more of her as a person. This version of her is not near as special. She's not necessarily doing anything wrong. She has been a model former wayward doing all the things that are prescribed of former wayward spouses but I'm starting to think "so what?"

Random song hit me tonight. A country song, actually.

"I wish you were a better man."

Yes that^^ is true. S30 volunteered unsolicited (& for me, hard to hear again) that his dad is "mentally ill and an a$$ho1e" and apparently h has had little to no contact with our children. Son thinks OW has kids, so that the "our family has been replaced".

I CANNOT believe this, not b/c it's impossible but b/c I CANNOT...h always loved them even when he was a jerk to me.

H Texted the kids the day after Christmas (though he sent money)...That is new, bad behavior.

So to my stbxh I would say "I wish you were a better man."

A few thoughts on anger. Anger is inevitable although rage is not.

Do not be afraid of anger, often we need anger. Anger is a prime emotion and motivating. Anger is part of healing grief, a stage in the Kubler Ross cycle.

Anger can be white, driving and pure. Anger can be the Alaskan snow.

Anger can be red with rage, anger can be bile coloured with envy, anger can be puce with disgust, anger can be yellow with determination and anger can be white with motivation.

Above all, anger is just anger. An emotion and it is needed. Anger can carry you through trying times, through the tundra of divorce fins. Anger can carry the key to the door of freedom, it can give you the energy to bust that rusty lock to sunlight.

I waited a long time for my anger to come and when it did it was not as I expected. It did not hurt my soul nor drive me to wickedness, it gave me steely determination and helped me act with direction. It protected my soul and self against the tide of abuse. Anger saved me. I know anger can be a good friend. An emotion for reason and in the right way a battle cry for truth.

Embrace anger when it comes, say hello and thank you to the warrior emotion who is on your side and gives you the grace to push away the obstacles in your path. Use anger in your movement to be D. You may need it's help to push through some dark days ahead.

Please know anger can be a friend.

V

Originally Posted By: Mach1

I still cherish the memories that we made together, and the children that I am a Father to that are one half of her...to dis-respect her, is to disrespect half of them too.

Funny that Mach1 brings this up as I think it is really a valid point.

One of the things that happened to me since bomb drop and divorce is that I did genetic testing.
You know the inexpensive kind used for ancestry and health.
It was so complicated that I could not understand it so
I took 3 free online classes in genetics and biology.

It has really helped me in realizing that my children are 50% their mother and I am 50 percent each of my parents,
so while we don't care for the ACTIONS of our spouse, we still have to honor the facts of why we are all here.

We love our children unconditionally and so too we must love our children's other parent.
Again the good old word DETACH comes into play and really trying to understand how to do that with love!

Yes LOVE is still a CHOICE and the fact that our partner chose a different path does not really matter with our path.
Of course we are so co-dependent and I can see that now so much more clearly.
I think that you know all the buzz words here and that YOU know that the focus you must keep is on 25yearsMLC.
Its hard, like J3B kept telling me is that it is a work in progress.
You keep doing it one day at a time.

Quote:

It has really helped me in realizing that my children are 50% their mother and I am 50 percent each of my parents,
so while we don't care for the ACTIONS of our spouse, we still have to honor the facts of why we are all here.

I like this. It took me a while to come to this given the parental alienation going on. However, the children love her and I wouldn't take that away from them in any form, even though full custody is on the plate if I choose to pursue.

Originally Posted By: Cadet

It has really helped me in realizing that my children are 50% their mother...

Speak for yourself. I put in at least 75% of the effort making them so I'd say my sons are 75% me and 25% my XW. I could even make a case for 80/20 except that I'm not the noisy one.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I have a question/remark. I have always told my kids their dad loves them, (even in the face of long absences and weird behavior.) I mean, for years. And in his goony way, I really believe he does love them.

But after his OW and SO HAPPY FB posts, they told me clearly, "Do not tell us Dad loves us. Do not defend dad anymore..."

That was clear... I have to respect their wishes, but man, that was unexpected.

I think they want me to just move on and that defending him, or saying he loves them, sounds as if I am not. But I am.

Strange how that works huh ??

I always had the mindset that it wasn't my job to facilitate their relationship, it was my job to not damage their relationship....

However that plays out..

And your children are grown, so I'm sure it sounds strange when you defend him.

Just make sure that you don't perpetuate any anger that they may have inside them already.

Originally Posted By: 25

Is that what you mean?

Sorta, maybe...

Ya know, we have spent years now saying that we would be fine if we reconciled or not.

Because of the DB process, and the fact that we didn't fake our way through it. Paid the dues, collected a life outside of the process.

Because we didn't let ourselves be defined by the worst thing that happened to us.

I found out in one direction, you found out in another. And you are just now starting to find out whether your theory is correct or not, because you are heading down the other path now.

So maybe I meant...

You have already done this, been to this point once before. It just took you longer to get here than most of us before you.

You already have this decision inside of you, maybe buried deep, yet somewhere in the back of your mind, you already have it...

Over the years, you still had thoughts of, what if we hadn't reconciled, or I would have done this differently if...

I didn't DB because I was successful, I am successful because I DB'ed..

So I guess that, where do you wanna be, comes from somewhere around there...

????

Goals ??

Dreams ??

Plans ??

Focus ??

Same as before J...

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

A few thoughts on anger. Anger is inevitable although rage is not.

Do not be afraid of anger, often we need anger. Anger is a prime emotion and motivating. Anger is part of healing grief, a stage in the Kubler Ross cycle.

Anger can be white, driving and pure. Anger can be the Alaskan snow.

Anger can be red with rage, anger can be bile coloured with envy, anger can be puce with disgust, anger can be yellow with determination and anger can be white with motivation.

Above all, anger is just anger. An emotion and it is needed. Anger can carry you through trying times, through the tundra of divorce fins. Anger can carry the key to the door of freedom, it can give you the energy to bust that rusty lock to sunlight.

I waited a long time for my anger to come and when it did it was not as I expected. It did not hurt my soul nor drive me to wickedness, it gave me steely determination and helped me act with direction. It protected my soul and self against the tide of abuse. Anger saved me. I know anger can be a good friend. An emotion for reason and in the right way a battle cry for truth.

Embrace anger when it comes, say hello and thank you to the warrior emotion who is on your side and gives you the grace to push away the obstacles in your path. Use anger in your movement to be D. You may need it's help to push through some dark days ahead.

Please know anger can be a friend.

V

Vanilla

I appreciate your comments, as you know.

I'm not sure why anger is so hard for me to maintain, b/c this is not how I was in my 20's. But I'm the child of an alcoholic and maybe it's a trigger?

ANGER....

For ME, anger is a hindrance to my moving forward.

I find that it prevents me from feeling deep happiness or joy. It makes me feel physically sick at times. Anger darkly colors the good in my life.

I am careful to ensure I am not running from anger, b/c you are right, it is a stage of grief.

That's totally valid & I will think on it.

Remember that I spent over a year of my life a decade ago, being angry.

It really pre-occupied me. It came out in conversations with nearly everyone I spoke to, and I'm a mother So my anger colored their lives and I wasn't as present to them as I wish I had been.

So, now, even though they are out of the house, I know they are worried about my health. I know they need to see me moving on and at peace. I know they really want this. I don't think anger, outside of legal matters, will help them.

2 of the 3 children absolutely do not want a reconciliation, they want me to say "good riddance to lunacy" and that's a quote. Maybe all 3 feel that way.

But, h is their dad and his DNA makes up half of them. If h is "bad/crazy/selfish", I worry very much that at some point they will either act this out, or have some part of themselves they do not love. I really worry about this.

Seeing me angry at him...man, I just think that will stink even more for them than this already does. But being assertive to get what I legally deserve, they want AND I want and am pursuing.

The anger I do feel at the "injustice" of things, & the present treatment in the divorce matters (ALL about money, as we have zero custody issues and no real estate now),

helps motivate me in the court matters.

THAT is the area in which I am allowing anger to motivate me b/c
I will not just "let ALL assets go" to end this ordeal earlier. I need financial security. I provided h's ability to earn what he earns now.

H was not an MD or even a medical student when we met. In fact he was a veterinary student (yes, he's got 2 medical degrees and is double board certified & yes we were married the whole time, and had S30 when h was a veterinarian )-

Recently in court h told the judge that he "is considering a fellowship in stem cell research and his income would decline and blah blah blah (h is 60...)

AND said he's buying into the partnership up there so his income is not really X and blah blah blah (idiotic to buy into a practice at his age AND refused to do it anywhere else, but you know, this is Alaska so those rules don't apply)

AND he wants "to help veterans" (odd, since h just left a Veteran's hospital in CA), AND said he wants to retire someday soon to travel (oh, really? Because that sure was MY hope & expectation)

so he's all over the place.

These^^ statements were in a court filing which h signed. I'm semi sure h does not know how that looks. OR did not read it? My L thinks h's own L is very frustrated with h as a client.

I have told my lawyers that I do not want anger to be a factor in any responses. But I do want the most I can get, fairly.

I got a wage garnishment b/c h never once informed me about what he'd pay or had paid or what a schedule of payments would be. Sometimes I'd discover a deposit in a random amount of money, in my bank. Oh goodie.

Otherwise, he'd MAIL a check from Alaska, usually mailed late, so I got ONE in the middle of last month, with a weird note hoping i "have moved on". Nice touch.

Since H kept all the funds at separation time, he will have to pay me half. He's in arrears for spousal support already. Mind you, H never even sent a text. I figured a garnishment would be easier for me AND for h. No more need to find a stamp or write a check or mail something on time.

This greatly angered him, I am told. H acts out when h is angry. Perhaps that was part of his need to overly share on FB about his "new honey"...who knows?? I'm told it was so over the top and just goony, that it really only gutted me

for a few days.

So far, at least.

In the long run, unless something terribly weird happens in court, I will be fine financially. But something terribly weird COULD happen. And in the meantime, I'm extremely put out & financially stressed by his behavior. (Yes there is a court order.)

I have fears. Fear & anger together?? OMG I barely sleep some nights.

Without going into medical detail, good sleep is a factor in seizure resistance, and poor sleep is a factor in having seizures. I need to sleep well.

So I can't pull all nighters or keep waking up in the middle of the night feeling sick with anger, fear and grief.

I have to let these^^ go - outside of times when I do legal or financial work in daytime hours.

Do I need anger to motivate me? I personally don't. Some people do. I get that.

Anger in me could take years off my life. I believe that.

So, for ME, I want my freedom to GAL & LIVE MY LIFE, as a happy motivator.

But I will not cave in on assets, only to escape this and then to live my life in more financial stress. That hurts my happy motivator...

I wasn't in this^^ place, 10 years ago. I wanted to stay married. I wanted to regain what we once had or have the future I hoped for and sacrificed so much for (Time Machine talk)

AND b/c we had 2 children still at home. They loved their dad then...

Someday, I think I will look at h with sympathy for a damaged man who once had a great family & lost them. I hope we can be cordial or even friendly, someday.

(MOST DAYS), I also hope that someday our children (& I) will see real change in him, true improvement, even if it's for someone else.

It would be better for them to see that, than to see him go down in flames.

Vanilla, I'm still pondering your first post here.

More on that later. Thank you so much for your input. I really do think about it and process it.

Cadet

I want to love h. I know I love who he was (and I MUST still love him b/c we were married so long. Right?)

How could 6 months end all of that? But how I feel right now, if I had to use words,

would not be "love."

At the moment it's too painful to say "I love my h", when he's made such personally painful choices to me, and hurt our kids.

It's a choice I hope to make again. I can imagine him being in an accident and me flying up there to help.

Writing that ^^ also makes me wince at the moment.

Originally Posted By: TxHubby

Sometimes D is best for everyone involved. I'm toying with that idea myself. My fWW are "reconciled" but to be honest, she has always seemed tainted to me ever since her A. I used to think so much more of her as a person. This version of her is not near as special. She's not necessarily doing anything wrong. She has been a model former wayward doing all the things that are prescribed of former wayward spouses but I'm starting to think "so what?"

TxHubby,

I worry about this^^. I don't want the ultimate road my marriage is taking, to be projected onto others. I want more for you.
You say she's being a model former wayward, and with all due respect b/c I REALLY hear your pain,

is there a part of you that wants to punish her?

In the unlikely event I ever recon with h, (and I mean, UNLikely), I'd need to know what steps he took to avoid making these types of choices and how he resolved whatever crap is within him, to be so dishonest for so long, and this could
only to be learned through therapy and workshops, where I can share the experience and feel trust again.

This^^ would take at least a few years. But my situation has been much longer than yours, and if you read through my whole thread (which would deserve an award)
you'd see a very different piecing process.

Our piecing was interrupted by H's mothers' cancer. We did not resume the needed parts once she passed away.

And years later, here I am.

Whatever plan or approach you choose for piecing, you have to keep at it. Forever. (Which we were probably supposed to do in our m's anyhow).
And you cannot hold the A over her head like the sword of Damocles, or throw it in her face every time she fails at something b/c hey, we are flawed humans. It really has to be dropped by you.

But If you mean you feel like saying, "W, I now realize I'll never see you in the light I want to see my wife in, no matter what you do. We must divorce",

just know you are then the WAS. Know that you are arguably simply not forgiving her, b/c hey, it's really hard.

Is that^^ viewpoint okay with you?

(Yes, I'm aware there's another viewpoint, I just wanted to check you on this one).

Originally Posted By: Cadet

It has really helped me in realizing that my children are 50% their mother and I am 50 percent each of my parents,
so while we don't care for the ACTIONS of our spouse, we still have to honor the facts of why we are all here.

We love our children unconditionally and so too we must love our children's other parent.
Again the good old word DETACH comes into play and really trying to understand how to do that with love!

Yes LOVE is still a CHOICE and the fact that our partner chose a different path does not really matter with our path.

This is beautiful, Cadet. Couldn't agree more!

When I really want words to say, they seem to fail me. I have respected and admired you since the day you joined the board. I admire your strength and courage, and the honesty you have shown in sharing this painful update. ((25))

Originally Posted By: sandi2

When I really want words to say, they seem to fail me. I have respected and admired you since the day you joined the board. I admire your strength and courage, and the honesty you have shown in sharing this painful update. ((25))

Thanks Sandi, I was actually looking for you. And I feel likewise. H is running like mad from dealing with the D issues and you know, I get that! It's awful. I want to run too.

I have family & friends around supporting me and I still feel like it's just such an ordeal.

Like a lot of labor without a cute baby at the end.

I'm working on "pushing" through it.

I so appreciate your input.

I've always seen myself as incredibly self aware, but here I am.

25

I see you as a very strong and capable poster. Your recent raw posts about your life are vital to your well being and totally authentic for you. Anything else is inconsistent with the values you hold.

Others read into your sitch or out of it what they will. There is no control that you can have and projection is part of life I am sure it will be as it can be.

Your sitch is yours and unique to you. Your sandbox.

I am not proposing uncontrolled anger or being angry so that it escalates. Similarly I am do not proposed being uncontrolled in sadness to depression or uncontrolled joy to mania. I am meaning great anger which is action focused and not directed at another but into results. Something that those who are emotionally healthy can tolerate and manage. I would also conclude that the 25 of the angry year is a less formed version of the 25 who is today. And being attached to crazy loco would drive anger. You are detaching from crazy loco, have stronger boundaries and survival strategies. You have more emotional health and have wisdom. You have grief to passage.

Using anger in the D process, directed anger is like the sword of truth. Many of the Giggalo claims are inconsistent nonsense. Such as he paid more for bills than I did and wants the excess back. His assets are more than mine but he wants a slice of mine. He lives with BIT but says she is his landlady. He is in Italy in a rented house and wants me to sell my home and buy him one to live with RIT. Etc etc etc etc.......

It is a question of taking each item and analysing the truth of it. Each item is examined by me for its validity and each item is researched for its counter evidence. For an L to do that is almost impossible. I am the expert on my R and I am the expert on my fins. The L is the expert on the law. I went on a course run by the Law Society on D and the D process. I also attended over a day of lectures on how to present evidence to a court. And soon I will be taking CILEX exams to train as a legal executive so I can represent myself in court at appeal if I need to do so. Overkill? Who knows although it was directed anger that got me there. Anger at the actions of the Giggalo not at him. Anger driving me for justice.

The courts and judges make their own decisions. As an abuse volunteer I can see how well or badly the evidence is presented is important. That and proposing cross examination questions. There is a support that can be offered in the UK called a Mackenzie friend so that those who represent themselves do not go to court unsupported. I have volunteered to be trained as a friend to those who have been abused and who because of fins must represent themselves. It's a seven week training and will be very interesting. That is how my anger is white and directed.

Establishing your own needs and ambitions. Do you want to buy into an income? Own an asset such as a business? Do you have debts? Can you be as wild and crazy as WH? Do you have an Alaska of your own to lay claim to? Have you always wanted to learn to fly? Do you want exotic medication and a Swiss recovery centre. I recently saw that strategy work in court, a mother who wanted to return to expensive training. Her turn to get a specialist qualification. Her needs quantified, if her WH wanted her to maximise her income (so he paid nothing) then she wanted a resource for three years to train. The court agreed. The WH hung himself out to dry with his greed.

Ever wanted to be a buddist and learn meditation? To achieve a lifelong ambition. To travel and be a travel writer perhaps? Now is the time to own your contribution. And yes, a few years ago I did read almost all of your threads, (I skipped some of the MLC bits I confess) so I get the anger part of it in your history, although from my old notes whilst reading it seemed perfectly in proportion to me.

--------------------------

Your children are adults now and have their own genetics. The populist traditional view is that DNA is 50% of one parent and 50% the other mathematically speaking. That is a misnomer although no natural child is ever a clone of its parent. The mix of genes is one's own and genetics need not be express. That is the root of epigenetics, so that we are in control of our own gene expression. What we do, our food, lifestyle and thinking are expressed through our genes. Genes can be switched on and off. Our genes are not our destiny.

So whilst love is a choice, the adult children becomes loved and admired for themselves and who they are as individuals that is in the expression of their genes. Genes mutate, at least 2% of genetic material is recombination genes and not directly from sperm or egg of the parent. That is the wonder of life. And genetic functions repeat, there is redundancy in that too. So we may not be 50% of one parent and 50% of the other. We can be many proportions expressed and that can change throughout life. I believe the admiration goes to the holder of the gene and for their choices that are expressed. And not the donating ancestors. Those are my thoughts on it.

Children as adults own their own genes.

I love your son's response partly because he recognises the crazy loco and wants you to be free from it. He seems to want you to be free from the prison of the place which is a representation of Alaska. The loco is very visible to your family, more than you knew it seems, and with the right evidence to any court you choose. I think the pattern is likely clear.

You are young still (and yes I know your biological age), with a future to claim. A future to make your own, a future in which you can express your best genes. A future of possibilities opens up to you. Resources will be helpful in making your future.

It's a new world.

V

25, I have no words except these:

Minus the obvious losses that you, naturally, must grieve, I'm happy and excited for you. You are the definition of "turning lemons into lemonade," and there's something telling me that the rest of your days will be a *beautiful* adventure. You will be blessed with the things that make you happy without the weight of what has held you - and, yes, I mean YOU - back.

The world is your oyster, and I hope you'll take us along for the journey. I know it'll make for some awesome reading!

Sending you hugs and high-fives because ... life. You've got this.

Very sorry to hear it 25yearsmlc. I've been divorced now for three years and you are correct -- there are definitely upsides once you heal enough to enjoy them. Like you I also had a reconciliation, although mine was only three years. During that three years, I was an H that only a fool would leave (although really I wasn't that bad before that either

)

The great gift and blessing in that, which I'm sure you have or will see in your own situation, is that I was able to leave the marriage without regrets, knowing that I had done the best I could. If things had just ended without the reconciliation, I have no doubt that I would have been tortured by guilt and self-doubt for a long time for things I'd done, not done, or imagined.

The gift that you and I share is that we got to go into a reconciliation with eyes wide open and bring our best, and that is an absolute positive.

A ten year reconciliation is a "successful relationship" in its own right. It takes two people to stay married, but only one to get divorced. You don't own that and there is no shame in it, as I'm sure you realize.

You've spent hours and hours helping countless people here and I'm confident that you've changed and improved many lives. If anyone will come out the other side in a better place you will.

Acc

((( )))

Thank you.

I went back and reread my notes on some threads although there are some missing ones. If I had been contemporaneous with you then I would have asked have you seen an IC who specialises in cPTSD?

The reactions you had at that time seem to indicate that is a factor. Your recent comments about your anger enticed me to reread my notes.

Over the weekend I will seek out some threads and think again.

V

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

I went back and reread my notes on some threads although there are some missing ones. If I had been contemporaneous with you then I would have asked have you seen an IC who specialises in cPTSD?

The reactions you had at that time seem to indicate that is a factor. Your recent comments about your anger enticed me to reread my notes.

Over the weekend I will seek out some threads and think again.

V

Hi V,

when my mom died, youngest went off to college, we heard/found a murder victim and then moved for h's job, (again) all in 6 weeks, it was a lot.

One weird thing was that I found myself not able to recall my mother's face in the coffin (she'd have hated an open casket b/c she had been a stunningly beautiful woman in her youth and she had a vain streak).

But I could vividly recall the murder victim's face, & still cane. The victim's face haunted me in the middle of the night and I could not sleep well. I missed my mom, I missed my children and my youngest was so far away,

look^^ obviously that was a lot. And that was 18 months ago.

Yes, I saw a PTSD therapist who was incredibly helpful. She did some EMDR therapy I thought sounded gimmicky but I trusted, and it helped. I saw her all the way until October when I left the west coast.

The seizures were not psychological (my father was epileptic. I hope I'm not).

But generally, the resistance to seizures is lowered when sleep is affected. So in that sense, I simply must keep negative thinking and stressful things that obstruct sleep, at bay.

Plus, I do have to become more open to the upsides of what life offers now - to be happy. (But I took in what you said about legal strategies, which are a drag, but justified).

Some of the things I've said 1000 times --

The best things in life are usually simple but hard.

That GAL is the best (only?) way to detachment

and that detachment is the only way I can shed the past and open myself to a better, happier life.

I've said these^^ things and believed them. I still do.

But when you get a gut punch, (and I know the fb posts really hurt me more than I expected, actually), you fall down.

Implementing my own advice is actually what I have to do.

It's actually simple. But damn, it's so hard.

What helps me most at the moment? Knowing I will be better & happier soon, helps me now...and my son telling me "good riddance to lunacy" reminds me that the marriage I'm legally ending, was not a marriage that was going to lead me to the hoped for marriage, nor was it the marriage we once had.

So it's not the present day marriage I mourn losing. And by embracing that, I hope, I'll implement my own advice and push myself to a life I want.

Besides, It's axiomatic that I would not have had the future with h that I envisioned.

When I'm real about what I would have had, if we were staying in THIS m, hey, that really helps me.

Vanilla

I'm not in la la land or doing a lot of "Zen forgive H' things. I'm only dealing with what is, and what I will create.

What IS, is legal crap that you're hideously familiar with. H wanted to mediate of course, but we have no custody issues or real estate.

So it's a numbers game only and given that h was the breadwinner and there are state legal formulas that are very fair to me, I saw no advantage to mediation for me.

I don't want to mind read too much but h SEEMS to feel the minimum the Federal law requires is more than fair. After all, his father gave nothing to his mother after 18 years of m. .

I enabled H to earn the big bucks of the double board certified MD, and won't even bother defending why I deserve more than H's version (about 1/9 of his earnings).

It speaks for itself.

THAT^^ makes me angry and THAT makes me fill out the reams of gross paperwork and stay on top of my L's but the costs are mounting. And being very aggressive, is also very expensive.

But at the moment I don't see a choice to it, b/c I now believe h would hide money. I mean,

(AND OMG as I write that^^ I'm slapping my forehead & saying '"of course he'd hide money!")

Yes, there is value is journalling out loud here.

Thanks, V.

Hi My namesake. I've been meaning to stop by with some words of encouragement, and like Sandi, my words are failing me!

I'm sorry you are going through this. I think you are amazingly brave. You've been through this rodeo before and you have done the work, and you know what you need to do now.

I know this must be hard on the kids, but it just kind of shows how he is living in his own little out of touch with reality world, when everyone sees his insanity except for him.

My hopes for you are to get what is rightfully yours and to continue to live an emotionally rich life, which you did build for yourself aside from your H during his crisis. You'll come out on the other end with flying colors. For now, you need to feel what you feel and do what you gotta do and we are all here for you.

Originally Posted By: Accuray

Very sorry to hear it 25yearsmlc. I've been divorced now for three years and you are correct -- there are definitely upsides once you heal enough to enjoy them. Like you I also had a reconciliation, although mine was only three years. During that three years, I was an H that only a fool would leave (although really I wasn't that bad before that either

)

The great gift and blessing in that, which I'm sure you have or will see in your own situation, is that I was able to leave the marriage without regrets, knowing that I had done the best I could.

I think^^ this is true but atm, I'm reeling from feeling that h was out the door for longer than I realized and that I must have really been a fool for believing this would not happen again.

I will work on this^^. Because as much marital revision as h must have been doing to justify this, again, I don't want to do the same thing and deny what was, actually very good at times. (Even in the past 10 years).

I just hate that sick "WTF was I thinking?" feeling. I did not have that before.

If things had just ended without the reconciliation, I have no doubt that I would have been tortured by guilt and self-doubt for a long time for things I'd done, not done, or imagined.

The gift that you and I share is that we got to go into a reconciliation with eyes wide open and bring our best, and that is an absolute positive.

A ten year reconciliation is a "successful relationship" in its own right. It takes two people to stay married, but only one to get divorced. You don't own that and there is no shame in it, as I'm sure you realize.

Only in my head do I feel no shame. In my heart, there is fear and shame.

Even though I THINK I will be more than okay in time, perhaps my fear is that some of his justifications (whatever they are), are valid.

The shame and fear that at some level I really let him or our family or myself, down. That somehow I deserved this. If I'm so great, how could he do this AGAIN??

Cognitively, I know this ^^ is not true. I'm just trying to process what my worst emotions are and where they come from and how to get through them.

I don't know how, other than to pick them up and stare for a bit and then learn from, and forgive myself and or, let go of what simply isn't mine. It is brave work I often wish to avoid, but I think I am healthy & self aware and strong enough to feel vulnerable.
To face it and own whatever is mine, and to move forward. God help me (literally).

I know and feel and am certain that h's decisions to leave us back then, and the secret trips to Alaska and his irrational obsession with it, and the many many other secrets he has, and the cruel indifference he has shown the past year, are all on him.

This^^ I know to be true.

You've spent hours and hours helping countless people here and I'm confident that you've changed and improved many lives. If anyone will come out the other side in a better place you will.

Acc

Thank you. I can honestly say my own growth & self awareness is peaking, and it would not have been able to do so, if not for the intense therapy, and workshop and HERE.

((( )))

Ginger,

Thanks. I keep doing the equation of what is fair and how unjust this feels...and what if he IS happier and what if he DOES live well and what if he NEVER regrets this..."???

Which then goes to the "How could I have been so blind?" obsessions.

I then tell myself, "Well, all you control is you so take down the scoreboard and add points to your own life. Life well, without regrets."

These ^^ are some things I must limit the time allotted to, each day. Consciously.

In some ways this is not rocket science. The best and most healing things we can do are not complicated.

In many ways this is simple. It's also so very very hard and deeply painful.

Feels like h died, but I don't get food brought over or life insurance.

(But when I remind myself that I should treat MY Choices as if h is truly gone, and not factor him into the choices I make, I must say things do become clearer. So that helps me).

This process also Feels like childbirth without an epidural, but with NO cute baby at the end.

Maybe I need to see the rebirth of my life as the cute baby?

Good timing for Easter.

Ginger, again, thank you for stopping by. It means a lot to me.

I need this place more than I would have expected (no offense guys).

((( )))

"what if he IS happier and what if he DOES live well and what if he NEVER regrets this..."???"

Yes I struggle with this sometimes too. Actually, I wouldn't want someone that I had loved and who loved me to be unhappy. At least from my best self I wouldn't. And in many ways I have moved on and I enjoy my life and wouldn't really consider reconciling with XH in any case.

So, why does it matter? In our case, OW's previous R was also an A, and the family was broken up and then she cheated on that guy with XH...and XH booked a flight to see her and never came back. There doesn't seem to have been any regret and I believe they are still together..that doesn't feel just...that you should be able to build a happy life on that foundation. And maybe they won't - who knows?

I just try to see our lives as completely separate now and that does help. He is leading his life (in whatever way he sees fit) and I am doing the same. But we are D'd almost a year and I guess all of that gets easier. I was also pretty lucky that XH was reluctantly cooperative when it came to the D and a settlement too...

You are right and things will feel much, much easier in time. There are some things to get through between now and then, but you'll do that too..

Xx

Originally Posted By: Sotto

"what if he IS happier and what if he DOES live well and what if he NEVER regrets this..."???"

I would not want to bet on that, in fact I would take the bet and give you odds on the other side of the bet.

Switching partners without doing any work is a recipe for disaster.

If it was so easy then the second marriage divorce rates would not be higher than the first time marriage divorce rates.( and third time marriages(divorce rates) even higher than that.

I' m with Cadet on this one.. i beleive the foundation is weak from the start. Other person become the next victim; or even both. Lust versus love.. and eventho they do not show it, the reactions of the people around them DO AFFECT THEM. The guilt and shame is present, burried under the mask and the ego.

Originally Posted By: Cadet

Originally Posted By: Sotto

"what if he IS happier and what if he DOES live well and what if he NEVER regrets this..."???"

I would not want to bet on that, in fact I would take the bet and give you odds on the other side of the bet.

Switching partners without doing any work is a recipe for disaster.

If it was so easy then the second marriage divorce rates would not be higher than the first time marriage divorce rates.( and third time marriages(divorce rates) even higher than that.

My Ego sure likes to hear this^^.

That is another mistake I (yes ME) made - when we reconciled,

despite his mothers illness - OR Because of it, why didn't I more strongly urge him to seek T?

We went to Retrovaille, had a break through and then his mom was sick and BOOM,

piecing was over. I don't mean consciously over. But In hindsight...which is 20-20

I am not positive H has ever sought help for something apart from me. Nothing individual....but God knows I have and will.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

We went to Retrovaille, had a break through and then his mom was sick and BOOM,piecing was over. I don't mean consciously over. But In hindsight...which is 20-20 I am not positive H has ever sought help for something apart from me. Nothing individual....but God knows I have and will.

25,

Sometimes hindsight is 20-20 and sometimes it takes more bumps, trips and stumbles to shed more light to make things more visible. Clarity is hard to come by when you're in it, but when the fog of illusion is gone it's a lot easier to see.

My piecing with my W 4 years ago lead me to a point where we were both comfortable and then full stop. You think you've got it. Things are generally good, but I'm learning that generally good just ain't nothing. Got to be working on things all the time.

I wish you peace in your journey through this.

Trying

My R didn't piece, I have no experience of it. Abuse being a target is sadly square in my knowledge.

Asking about cPTSD is because you lived Alaska, with little means of escape (other than GAL).

So clean question

Did that experience cause you trauma?

V

25, I think you nailed it where you say he didn't do the separate work on himself. You cannot take accountability for that. You did everything right, great DBing, counseling with him, retrovaille, EE for yourself.

I think both you know and I know after being on these boards for so many years, that when someone doesn't truly do the work on themselves, it comes back to bite them in the butt somewhere down the line. You have absolutely no control over that part.

I think the fault that most LBS make are that they continue to be Co-dependent, conflict avoiding, enablers.
I know that describes me and concerns me for any relationship.
Boundaries remain important also.
I think that is where I need to continue my effort of work.
And I would suggest most other LBS's here need to do the same.

Imo, we need to look at the reason we entered the realtionship in the first place. In my case, ex-H was strong where i was weak and i was strong where he was weak. We shared common interest and we truely were best friends. We have set goals and achieved them. Each of us take on a role. We help and support eachother in those roles.we help one another be the best we can be. We have done alot for our Ex's to be who they are today BUT, They have done alot for US to be who we are. Co-dependancy imo is part of a relationship. We know(or thought) we can count on our partner in our moment of weakness.
Unfortunately, when MLC hit, we are left to dry while they find someone else to plsy our role. In their mind, the role can be played by both woman and when we slap them with a reality tcheck, they are baffled.. ????

ANGER..
Like Vanilla, i like anger. It is a powerful emotion, a motivator, a protector. It could also be unhealthy if we carry it too far. Anger need balance.
In your case, it is a drive for your D. Be careful to not use it for revenge.you do not want to live with guilt and shame yourself. Analyze what your future needs and set this as your platform. No need to give him everything and no need to put him in the street.. be fair and you' ll be feeling good about the whole thing!

25, YOU ARE a woman with a Great heart and good judgement. You know right from wrong and i know you will follow your intuitions. I have faith in you and i really do admire the person you are!!

Originally Posted By: Vanilla

My R didn't piece, I have no experience of it. Abuse being a target is sadly square in my knowledge.

Asking about cPTSD is because you lived Alaska, with little means of escape (other than GAL).

So clean question

Did that experience cause you trauma?

V

There were 2 episodes of living there, for me. No I would not say living there Alaska was traumatic.

I hated the endless darkness, but had kids with me and took them out of state every January. And I GAL in a way that still makes me proud.

Parts of Alaska are barren but parts of it are as stunning as you see on television. Hard to explain what -40' is like... I enjoyed parts of it, immensely. I offered to buy property there for summers and I meant it. (Yes there are closer places I'd prefer, not quite so remote. But I'm flexible).

The first assignment there was when I noticed distinct changes in H, however. Can't decide if it was the timing of it (he was out of a residency and burn unit that $ucked for him) or that he was in THE WILDS or that something pathological in him became more self evident. Or that he had understandable pent up recreational demand.

I arrived there 8 months pregnant the first time, and he was less of the h he had been before. And more irritable, periodically. He and S spent a LOT of time wrestling and S took the state championship, twice. But it seemed excessive for the whole family to drive 6 hours for a match, up there...but we did.

Our older d once said "Dad & Alaska... I'm bored with hearing about Alaska now. I lived there, I get it, YAWN..."

At the time I laughed, but she's right. He made it about so much more than a lovely place to visit or live temporarily...like it should be paradise for all of us or we just didn't get it. He once told a MC that I had an "irrational" distaste for it, to which the MC said "but she lived there and did well. Couldn't it be you who has the irrational attachment? Most couples take destinations off the table if their spouse doesn't want to live there. Period."

H did not want to see that MC much longer after that. In fact he seemed to think I brainwashed all of them b/c I'm such a great wordsmith...

(If I could brainwash people like h thinks, I'd have done it to h!)

In sum, no I think it was an extremely harsh environment but I threw myself into it and still feel personally good about that. Not maritally, but personally.

Originally Posted By: Cadet

I think the fault that most LBS make are that they continue to be Co-dependent, conflict avoiding, enablers.
I know that describes me and concerns me for any relationship.
Boundaries remain important also.
I think that is where I need to continue my effort of work.
And I would suggest most other LBS's here need to do the same.

YES^^^

RE Past 10 years --- When the boundaries were not completely clear, I failed to enforce them. In fact, even when they were semi clear, I somehow did not see it, or let it slide.

Why? Fear? Surely that's a part of it.

But I think there is more and that I have to explore it deeply and bravely and maybe not like what I find.

Like I didn't want to see it I know that I soooo wanted to keep the girls in one place for their schooling, (which they asked for as their priority 10 years ago),

so maybe I saw what I had to see to achieve that goal and hoped things would improve "later"??? My grief when my mom died and the other things that happened in late 2015, threw me off. But there were times before then that h was line crossing.

I'll definitely work on this^^ with my new T.

I will not repeat that behavior again in any r.

So help me God I say this here,

The next time an actual boundary or deal breaker is crossed,

I will walk away and not look back.

I would ask that you all help me remember this if it ever comes up.

Originally Posted By: Ginger1

25, I think you nailed it where you say he didn't do the separate work on himself. You cannot take accountability for that. You did everything right, great DBing, counseling with him, retrovaille, EE for yourself.

I think both you know and I know after being on these boards for so many years, that when someone doesn't truly do the work on themselves, it comes back to bite them in the butt somewhere down the line. You have absolutely no control over that part.

So true. So simple, so true and at times, so hard to do. The letting go of what we cannot control is key

but the struggle I'm having is that I DO have to get through this legal quagmire so I cannot just let go of huge parts of this, at the moment.

Balancing the letting go - against engaging in my life's most distasteful experience yet.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

That is another mistake I (yes ME) made - when we reconciled,

despite his mothers illness - OR Because of it, why didn't I more strongly urge him to seek T?

We went to Retrovaille, had a break through and then his mom was sick and BOOM,

piecing was over. I don't mean consciously over. But In hindsight...which is 20-20

I am not positive H has ever sought help for something apart from me. Nothing individual....but God knows I have and will.

I would venture that his Mother being sick affected BOTH of you deeply.

Enough of a bottom ( not an absolute bottom ) to put the monsters to sleep for a while.

Enough of a return for you to breathe a sigh of relief...

Life moves on, things are good on the outside...

Her being sick affected you too, probably moreso considering that your head wasn't constructed of mush-brain just shortly before. Coming from DBing, YOU were ultra sensitive to your surroundings...

Him ? Not so much...

For him, is was shift in his brain from one thing to absorb his energy, into another thing to absorb his energy....

Now, for the part that you may not like... : )

Your words here...

Try not to get caught up in the "whys" of this. They really serve you no purpose for now. There will be time for that later, down the road.

Your objective is totally different than most here, at least for today.

You aren't here trying to save, or salvage the pieces of your marriage.

So my advice to you, would be, to first off...

You need to be 100% physically, or as close as you can be...

That should be priority number one for you...

From there, THEN you make plans, and go after what you want...

From there, THEN you are able to do the things that you WANT to do...

From there, THEN you become more financially stable on your own, and whatever comes from him is bonus money, play money if you will...

From there.....

So maybe shift focus from "what if" and "why"....

To how to get..."there"

Step 1 is....

Wow 25. I had a feeling something was up with you. I am truly sorry this is happening. You helped me from day 1,when I came here. And you have helped countless others. I hope you health is ok? We got your back sending prayers

Hi 25,
Just stopping by to offer a word of encouragement. I always look forward to reading your posts. You have a beautiful writing style. And such wise, thoughtful posts. You are a perfect example of life handing you lemons, well, you know the rest. You've taken your story and made good use of it, dropping bread crumbs to all of us who follow this road.

Random journal notes...

Email from my L, replying to my "WTF is happening in the D process?" questions...

She says that h's L has "trouble getting ahold of him. That when he reaches h, h seems distracted and disorganized and won't stay on track, other than complaining about having to pay me..." (H is an MD, with an OW, and who knows what else...)

3 thoughts were triggered in me.

1) This immediately alarmed me on behalf of h, like "oh no he's flipping out like his mom and having a breakdown..."

(I'd use the term "co-dependent" but as another poster said, long marriages do tend to create some interdependencies and I'm not sure it's all pathological)

Anyhow

THEN

2) "Ha, this proves he's nuts to be doing this!" (& "I'm a great catch, his loss," etc)

THEN

3) Oh damn, such a swatch of destruction.

So Last night

I had a dream with h in it, (not exactly rare) and in the dream he was very sad, I think he was crying hard.

He felt embarrassed in the dream. In the dream, and in real life, I took no joy in his tears.

(Okay maybe a little glad that he wasn't bragging about how HAPPY he is, NOW)

but more like insight b/c of the lawyer's comments.

I think the email, via the dream allowed me to realize that all is not well in h's world.

This may seem like a wildly fun ride to the outsider (and to the spouse who wanted the m to work, that image hurts very badly.)

But as Mach & Cadet have said, if affairs lead to happy 2nd m's, why do more end in divorce?

To me, it now seems more like h has tried to hold a beach ball of unspoken resentment under water, (& kept a lot of secrets I'm now more aware of)

and now the beach ball has broken free from h's hands and is out of the water, except it's out of control and undirected.

Amid my sense of loss, I must also admit a certain sense of relief.

This^^ is Not my sandbox. H's lack of inner contentment & constant restlessness,

not my sandbox. Trying to please h, meet insane expectations or be a disappointment,

also NOT my sandbox. I need to dig in my own sandbox today.

And that's my insight for now.

Happy Easter!

Well, for those who are believers, liturgically, Easter is about resurrection the rebirth of the soul.

Kind of a DB event in a way.

While posting to someone else who was asking WHY they had not noticed things in their m, earlier. Why they believed their WAS when they lied OR when they returned to the marriage and ended up back here (as I am).

In my case, I believed things were alright even though I knew at times, that I should have dug deeper, or probed further and addressed that uneasy feeling I had

and I also wonder about the times that seemed really good in the past decade.

Were they good? Were they fake? Etc etc.

2 thoughts on that

First, my daughters did not want to move again. Period. The way to make that happen was to DB and wait a bit as there were no financial issues at the time. H was paying the mortgage, although from afar.

In time we reconciled. So I cannot regret this^^.

But the other reason I did not see things more clearly, is b/c I wanted to believe the things that validated my choice to stay.

This^^ is what I'll work on with my new T and at some point maybe the goal will be to just forgive myself.

There are observations in 12 steps which I love so much

Today Tomorrow Yesterday

THERE are two days in every week about which we should not worry, two days which should be kept free from fear and apprehension.

One of these days is YESTERDAY with its mistakes and cares, its faults and blunders, its aches and pains. YESTERDAY has passed forever beyond our control.

All the money in the world cannot bring back YESTERDAY. We cannot undo a single act we performed; we cannot erase a single word we said. YESTERDAY is gone.

The other day we should not worry about is TOMORROW with its possible adversaries, its burdens, its large promise and poor performance. TOMORROW is also beyond our immediate control.

TOMORROW'S sun will rise, either in splendor or behind a mask of clouds--but it will rise. Until it does, we have no stake in TOMORROW for it is as yet unborn.

This leaves only one day--TODAY--. Any person can fight the battles of just one day. It is only when you and I add the burdens of those two awful eternities--YESTERDAY and TOMORROW that we break down.

It is not the Experience of TODAY that drives people mad--it is remorse or bitterness for something which happened YESTERDAY and the dread of what TOMORROW may bring.

So let us live one day at a time.

----------------------

For me it was one hour at a time

V

amen sista

mood swings happen sometimes hourly. Easter was great b/c I only rarely thought of h. I was with couples all around (all family, but still).

i was not part of a couple for the first time since I was 19. But the topics were interesting and the food was good. No obsessing!

Tomorrow I get my car. First time in 6+ months I can drive, medically. Feels like I'm 16.

Crazy small milestone but everything that makes me feel less stuck, is valuable.

Back to today...

Vanilla, thanks.

the mental movies of OW are gross enough

but the looking back and wondering what other lies or crap I missed, what was joyful but maybe now is not and this undermines a lot of family history. Along with the health crap of October, I find myself feeling too much self doubt.

Working on it.

Something new that I feel now, is not anger so much as kind of a hatred. Like I'd feel at a kidnapper who took my children.

This could sure make future celebrations a drag.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Originally Posted By: TxHubby

Sometimes D is best for everyone involved. I'm toying with that idea myself. My fWW are "reconciled" but to be honest, she has always seemed tainted to me ever since her A. I used to think so much more of her as a person. This version of her is not near as special. She's not necessarily doing anything wrong. She has been a model former wayward doing all the things that are prescribed of former wayward spouses but I'm starting to think "so what?"

TxHubby,

I worry about this^^. I don't want the ultimate road my marriage is taking, to be projected onto others. I want more for you.
You say she's being a model former wayward, and with all due respect b/c I REALLY hear your pain,

is there a part of you that wants to punish her?

In the unlikely event I ever recon with h, (and I mean, UNLikely), I'd need to know what steps he took to avoid making these types of choices and how he resolved whatever crap is within him, to be so dishonest for so long, and this could
only to be learned through therapy and workshops, where I can share the experience and feel trust again.

This^^ would take at least a few years. But my situation has been much longer than yours, and if you read through my whole thread (which would deserve an award)
you'd see a very different piecing process.

Our piecing was interrupted by H's mothers' cancer. We did not resume the needed parts once she passed away.

And years later, here I am.

Whatever plan or approach you choose for piecing, you have to keep at it. Forever. (Which we were probably supposed to do in our m's anyhow).
And you cannot hold the A over her head like the sword of Damocles, or throw it in her face every time she fails at something b/c hey, we are flawed humans. It really has to be dropped by you.

But If you mean you feel like saying, "W, I now realize I'll never see you in the light I want to see my wife in, no matter what you do. We must divorce",

just know you are then the WAS. Know that you are arguably simply not forgiving her, b/c hey, it's really hard.

Is that^^ viewpoint okay with you?

(Yes, I'm aware there's another viewpoint, I just wanted to check you on this one).

With time you can "get over" a cheating spouse but things will never really be the same. We'll tell you they will be to keep hope alive for you but the reality is it isn't. It'll never be the same once one of the spouses cheats. They're forever tainted because they violated their vows. Some choose to stay anyway and live with the tainted R. I did....for the time being at least.

I hesitate to post on a lot of other people's threads because (1) I've only been married 8 years and (2) I've only been DBing for a relatively short time and barely know wtf I'm doing. That said...I don't want to see you fall toward hatred. Hatred is a strong thing.

�I will permit no man to narrow and degrade my soul by making me hate him.�
― Booker T. Washington

�Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.�
-Yoda

Just sayin'...

Hatred is anger in action, sort of black anger.

Hatred is a body state and can include rage and disgust. Sometimes it's appropriate. Actions are a choice, we can self soothe Hatred to disgust. States can change, mainly we can only hold one state at a time so Hatred can move by going being active.

It can be useful if it moves one to action.

I think we miss loads from our history and it was as it was. If it is useful now, (such as D fins or in other practical ways) then it's necessary. Otherwise the future ex is a jerk and a gaslighted when being wayward and deceptive. That's as useful as finding them loving and sweet. Hate is very close to love. And you can hate the behaviour but love the sinner.

I suggest you observe it and don't absorb, a technique proposed by Ross Rosenberg. In the end self compassion is most important thing.

Personally, I convert these things to cartoons in my heart and head and it helps in the moment. Suppressing is even worse, acknowledge handle and observe. I think it's ok if you are passing through, not great to live in hate.

It's just a part. It's early days.

V

Originally Posted By: TxHubby

They're forever tainted because they violated their vows. Some choose to stay anyway and live with the tainted R. I did....for the time being at least.

I think you could maybe say the same thing about being divorced.
DB is about learning how to love again.

Quote:

With time you can "get over" a cheating spouse but things will never really be the same. We'll tell you they will be to keep hope alive for you but the reality is it isn't. It'll never be the same once one of the spouses cheats. They're forever tainted because they violated their vows. Some choose to stay anyway and live with the tainted R. I did....for the time being at least.

I hope this is just your opinion, Tex. To me, it doesn't sound as if you have gotten over it. If you see your W as being forever tainted, maybe you have not be able to fully forgive her? It bothers me that you see yourself living with a tainted R. You say it will never be the same. In what way has your MR changed and you've accepted the idea of it never being the same again? I'm pretty sure I remember reading posts where you said you and your W were doing great, happy, etc. Was this not true?

I'm not saying you are wrong to feel what you feel. I don't know if I could be the betrayed and be able to have a healthy mindset toward my H. As being the recipient of forgiveness, I can honestly say that I live every day in the grace of that forgiveness. If my H, or anyone in my family, looked through their eyes and did not see the woman I have been throughout my lifetime.......and only saw me as forever tainted.............I'm not sure how I would cope, although, I'm pretty sure it would destroy any hope of having joy again.........and after that, I don't know what I would do.

I believe when Jesus forgives, He makes me white as snow. The consequences of my sins may not be washed away, but I have the assurance (according to scripture) that He does not see me as a "tainted woman". Just as He forgave the woman at the well (who was living with a man who was not her H), He forgives me. That is my spiritual belief and faith.

I know I caused more hurt and disappointment than I could ever repair on my own. I have to live with that knowledge every day for the rest of my life. I am extremely blessed to have a family who believes in forgiveness and healing.

It hurt to see your post, Tex. Not for me, but for you and your W. She does not have the power to undo what happened, and there is nothing she can do to earn your forgiveness and remove the tainted rags you see when you think of her.

I have seen LBH's focus on nothing but getting back their WW. After the reconciliation, it may be sooner or later.........he goes though anger, resentment, (maybe a sense of self-righteousness) or feelings such as you are experiencing. Did you and your W attend therapy in healing after an affair? If not, would you consider it?

Yes, we try to offer hope for those who come here. For me, it is not false hope. Why would we stick around if we did not believe there was hope after an affair?

Sorry for the hijack, 25.

Sandi

I like the hijack for a couple reasons. I journaled here about feeling hatred for h. Not saying it's a feeling that will remain.

I seriously doubt it but I'm processing my emotions out loud here. It's helpful to my process. I won't hate h, but I see him with a "shaking my head" kind of pity and disregard. He has had little contact with our children, which is just cowardly.

I'll be seeing a new T starting tomorrow (getting my car today, thank God).

Yes I do see my h differently now b/c of the OW -- or rather, the deceit involved.
and the way he's behaving toward me is simply dishonorable.

If h really had started seeing her right after I filed (his story is that he met her, the DAY after I "suddenly filed for divorce", as if he was hurt, shocked, etc)

I would just see him as a man who cannot be alone. But knowing of the lies and silence of lies...ugh.

I FEAR that our m was not what I thought it was, much more than I feared that before.

I feel shame that I could be such a fool, that things were not as I believed and WTF is wrong with me not to see?! This is something I'll explore in T.

The mental movies that create sick feelings in the pit of my stomach about h and OW, are not as bad as the marital revisions I've done, (which I must not keep doing.)

Again, it's a process for me. And I will get to the other side.

Hearing your process Sandi, and how you feel and see things years later, is immensely helpful to me.

What were my "best case scenarios"?? NOT SURE...if you had asked me a few months ago, I'd have said "EITHER, healing, discovering things about myself, exploring the world as a single adult woman, which I've never been..."

OR
that
"h REALLY gets it and h feels deep remorse (to show that he gets it, not b/c I want him in pain) and gets T & good help to cope with all his weirdnesses and unresolved issues and his disloyalty AND finally really appreciates my love..."

Even as I write this^^^ I know that the odds of h doings this^^ are nearly 0.

Even if he regrets his behavior-or thinks he's ruined the family, I'd never hear about it -- too much pride.

At Retrovaille his moment of clarity was powerful and very painful for him. But it was that moment that showed me, "H gets it". No need for me to add on. Problem solved..but it was not solved.

In retrospect his remorse was short lived b/c it's SO incompatible with how he sees himself.

After all, If h is a great man, (which has to be a given or he will crumple) he would not have hurt his family and therefore, it did not happen or it's someone else's fault.

And Now that secrets are coming out, events are seen in a new darker light,
and I see our marriage differently.

This^^ deeply troubles me.

Sometimes I think it's better not to know how many lies there were.

IF h were to want to reconcile (no folks, I'm not holding my breath) then maybe the lies would need revealing but I'm not even sure of that.

I will need some sort of "non crap" relationship with him for the kids events, but that's not for today.

Tex

I hope you'll take in Sandi's post and reflect on it.

I DO get what you mean, obviously. If h were to magically become the man I thought he was and became a mature fully authentic man

it would still take real work for me to see him fully, and through God's eyes. That would be my goal I suppose. Assuming the above work by h, I think I could see him as worthy of loving and as a flawed man.

But not the man I thought he was, for sure. H has surprised/disappointed me a lot this past decade...and there must be a reason our children tell me that they are "proud" of me for filing.

Think about that...ugh.

Maybe your goal could be to see your w as a flawed, deeply worthy woman. And to see yourself the same way, b/c owning your role in her A is a challenge.

Sometimes I think the biggest piece of the LBSers work when there are OPs

is to accept that although the A was wrong, the LBSer played a role in the spouses choice.

While it is possible for a solid marriage to suddenly, spontaneously have a wayward spouse due to issues only within one partner, it's darn rare.

And if it was an issue in her only, AND if she is working on resolution of that issue,

then what?

Yes I struggled with the duplicity too, and friends have said the same. In my situation, XH booked airline tickets to go visit OW the following week. Then came home for the weekend and said nothing. We had a nice family lunch with some friends and then he left for his work commute as usual on the Monday - again saying nothing.

Truly, I just don't think he was able to handle being honest face to face and he ended up emailing to say he had been having an A. Weakness and fear.

In your situation, I had to SMH at your H meeting his 'Honey' the day after you filed for D 'out of the blue' - really?? It is a shame that so many people jump into a new R straight away - or in my case before - closing the door and healing from their former R - ugh..

Anyway - rant over - from all that you post I have every confidence that you will get through this situation with as much grace as you can muster and move forward with peace in your heart.

As you have kids and a long marriage, hopefully things will settle and you guys will ultimately be able to interact and link as needed..

You're doing so well, given all circumstances, and happier times truly lie ahead..

Xx

Quote:

I feel shame that I could be such a fool, that things were not as I believed and WTF is wrong with me not to see?! This is something I'll explore in T.

Why do you see yourself as being a fool? B/c H lied and deceived you? B/c you feel you should have been smarter or quicker in seeing the truth?

In all my resentment, and other forms of anger, I don't remember thinking of my H as a fool for not catching on to my affair sooner. In fact, I believed his complete trust in me was hiding the truth much better than my attempts of covering my affair. I am ashamed, but will admit, that I knew I was taking full advantage of his trust.

I was such a kid when we married. We both were kids. Never had been with anyone else, and trusted each other completely, I would have told everyone there was no way on earth either of us would ever cheat. I think with some couples, the line of trust becomes blurred with taking the MR for granted......and they stop trying to fill the EN of each other.

It mostly seems like a very bad dream to me. I could give dozens of excuses, including the way the doctors were really messing with my medication. I was placed on four prescriptions of anti-depressants.............and then taken off (cold turkey) all of them at once. My poor mother "chose" to believe that was the only way her moral & religious daughter could ever cheat in her M. However, I know how I felt toward my H a long time before the prescriptions.......and I take responsibility for my actions.

Anyway, back to you feeling like a fool, maybe this is a natural reaction to learning you have been deceived by the one who is suppose to love you the most. If this person had been someone else connected in some other way.......your intelligence and keen intuition would have alerted you. Please don't beat yourself up for trusting the man you married. ((25)). That is what we are taught to do. That is the vows that were made.

I doubt your H will show any outward signs of regretting his choices as long as he is running wild in his waywardness. You mentioned pride. My lord how I had so much pride. I think it could have driven me out of town, and away from my family, if my H had decided to "expose" me before the world (b/c I had not repented from my wayward behavior). Not saying everyone else shouldn't either, just stating how I think it would have affected me at that time. Pride was my biggest hinderence in apologizing, humbly, to my H. As a rational person can clearly see, I had nothing in myself to warrant pride. I had a wayward mindset, and that type of mindset needs to experience remorse and humility.

My dear 25, I sincerely pray for your family's healing, and especially for you. I have witnessed the pain that adultery causes. My children suffered (and one still suffers) the result of a divorce from a cheating spouse. For me, that is as close as personally experiencing the pain of a LBS, ..........b/c as parents, we take on some of the pain of our children. Every day, I see the pain and it breaks my heart. However, I have not been in those LBS' shoes and I realize I don't really know the feeling of betrayal by the one I married. I am so sorry this terrible experience has come into your life. No matter how strong you are, when pain comes.........you still feel it. So, continue to talk about it, or whatever it takes to get you to a better place.

I marvel how helpful you continue to be for others, and in spite of your pain.......you do not sound bitter in your positive & supporting posts on threads of board members. You have always given wonderful advice, and the first thing I noticed in your thread........is how you give yourself the same brand of advice. That our 25!

Originally Posted By: sandi2

You mentioned pride. My lord how I had so much pride.

Sandi, would you mind writing a little bit more on pride for all of us? How prideful of a person would you say you were before the A ever happened? Did that increase after the A started? You mentioned remorse and humility, what did that process look like for you? Hope I'm not opening old wounds, I'm just curious and I thought others might be as well.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

I marvel how helpful you continue to be for others, and in spite of your pain.......you do not sound bitter in your positive & supporting posts on threads of board members. You have always given wonderful advice, and the first thing I noticed in your thread........is how you give yourself the same brand of advice. That our 25!

She has been amazing! I wish she weren't going through all of this again and I don't know how she is able to help others so well while she's going through her own hell. She's a really remarkable woman from everything I've seen! Hang in there!

25, funnily enough (well not so funny), I was posting on my thread the exact same thing about not being sure if the M/R was really ever happy and if I made it all up in my head.

I feel like I'm starting to believe him in that he never really loved me. I keep thinking back to situations and realising that maybe I was wanting to see what I wanted and covering things up that didn't suit me at the time. I think maybe we did an excellent job of it though as everyone thought we were the happiest and best suited couple. It just feels like all smoke and mirrors now....

Originally Posted By: Coly23

25, funnily enough (well not so funny), I was posting on my thread the exact same thing about not being sure if the M/R was really ever happy and if I made it all up in my head.

I feel like I'm starting to believe him in that he never really loved me.

though I know h & I were happy (I can safely say, I THINK, for the first 20-25 yrs), I can only deal with so much marital revisions. I hear that h told others "this was coming for a long time", (news to me, and I have examples of behavior and comments that were the opposite, but here in DB land, I don't need to prove my case)...

but of course it hurts and it undermines your self trust. You wonder if you are nearly as clued in as you thought. In my case, there were moments of silence or vagueness in h's answers that should have alerted me to dig deeper.

His avoidance of a topic and his silence, never indicated something good. (Nope, he's not planning a surprise party for our anniversary!! He's hiding another secret plan about money or a plan to return to the tundra...his freaking obsession is irrational, and you're married to a truly selfish, strange man with tremendous capacity for long term deceit...) Nope, didn't want to know that.

Coly, I heard a TED talk or NPR from a Vietnamese refugee man discussing how his family fled in 1975 AND how his culture has no subjunctive terms, no "would have/should/could have", and as a result it seems they ruminate less.

This was amazing to me. He gives talks about the implications of this simple grammatical reality. I highly recommend it.

Maybe you can stop yourself from going into the "Dark subjunctive" too much, b/c really what is the point? "What should you have known, what could you have done and what would have happened then??"

How stupid you were to believe? That your D16 was born into a fraud?

I keep thinking back to situations and realising that maybe I was wanting to see what I wanted and covering things up that didn't suit me at the time.

it's fair to examine this^^^ if your goal is to learn from it. Don't let it undermine the parts that gave you joy.

I struggle with this, b/c I want to be able to see photos --like of the kids, e.g. skiing even if h is in the picture (not doing this today, mind you, but someday)

and I don't want to let h's present behavior steal those joys from me too.

There's enough loss already

I think maybe we did an excellent job of it though as everyone thought we were the happiest and best suited couple. It just feels like all smoke and mirrors now....

maybe your h should go to Hollywood if he's that good of an actor...

or maybe his feelings changed and he's justifying crap behavior by extensive marital revision

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

or maybe his feelings changed and he's justifying crap behavior by extensive marital revision
[/color]

Extensive marital revision... man, do I love this statement... All I've heard about is all the misery throughout the years and please don't discount my awareness of my flaws and contributions to the bad stuff.

As a LBS, it's so hard to hear some of the venom that spews when the WAS is in walk away mode. Will there be a point where the dust settles. Not sure.

25 - Hope you have a great day today and continue your journey to peace.

Originally Posted By: sandi2

[quote]I feel shame that I could be such a fool, that things were not as I believed and WTF is wrong with me not to see?! This is something I'll explore in T.

Why do you see yourself as being a fool? B/c H lied and deceived you? B/c you feel you should have been smarter or quicker in seeing the truth?

In all my resentment, and other forms of anger, I don't remember thinking of my H as a fool for not catching on to my affair sooner. In fact, I believed his complete trust in me was hiding the truth much better than my attempts of covering my affair. I am ashamed, but will admit, that I knew I was taking full advantage of his trust.

feeling like a fool, maybe this is a natural reaction to learning you have been deceived by the one who is suppose to love you the most. If this person had been someone else connected in some other way.......your intelligence and keen intuition would have alerted you. Please don't beat yourself up for trusting the man you married. ((25)). That is what we are taught to do. That is the vows that were made.

I doubt your H will show any outward signs of regretting his choices as long as he is running wild in his waywardness. You mentioned pride.

Sandi, thank you for all of this b/c I need it more than I would have thought.

H is telling the world how happy he is. He is exposing and claiming it's not an affair, obviously b/c "25 & i parted ways..." was said on fb before we parted (unknown to me).

Now Posting on fb that he is "in a relationship" and calling her his new "honey" and introducing her to the family...all on fb.

About a year ago we saw someone post things on FB that were just too private to expose and sounded silly and inappropriate. Poor taste. We had both found it distasteful in the past. Neither of us understood it and he high fived me when I said I'd "never do something like that, it's goofy and way too much information." So now he's doing it. ugh!

And yeah we are still married so...

When I am objective and take my ego out of it and my wounded heart, I do think it's odd behavior. My 23 y/o niece told my sister "it's not a normal post for any age, but for a man his age, it's just weird. Not to mention we know he's still married. It's weird and So over the top..."

There is something overcompensating about it, AND OR deliberately meant to harm me.

A wage garnishment had been attached to his pay about a week beforehand. He threatened to quit his job to avoid paying. So I'm sure he was not happy about that, in fact I know he wasn't. I'm pretty sure he does not see a connection between his zero communication w/me about money, and the need for a garnishment.

(I want predictability so I can budget. And I didn't really know about OW when that happened).

He either meant to slap me back, publicly, or he's truly oblivious and goofy, and I don't care which, b/c both options stink.

So the "exposure" is from him, not me. I remain publicly silent. I'm also not the type to do exposure of an A for the reasons you and I have discussed at length here. And b/c a small part of me wants to know that he is, someday, regretful about this. It's a $hitty way to end a long m, for sure.

When I was told that he listed the date they met as the day after I filed, I smh and managed an actual laugh. (Honestly, it only makes it slightly less insane).

Sandi I do not expect any regrets to be expressed at all, or at least not to me. I wish, but In fact he's not the type to look back much and say he 'screwed up",

but he is the type to blame me for "ruining the finances"...yes he is sooo proud.

HOWEVER, I'm told by informed sources that when it comes to talking to his L, "h seems distracted and unable to focus, except to complain about paying stbxw. Hard time staying on track and has disorganized thoughts..."

Sandi, this^^ both disturbs me and - I confess, delights me.

The disturbing part is b/c I'm a decent person and don't want mental illness to be his destiny.
I still care, and he's the father of my children.

The "delights me" part, of which I am not proud, is

1) obviously b/c I want to point to it as an explanation for his choosing the tundra and OW over me.

And 2) I think it makes me feel that all is not perfect in paradise. Not about OW probably but b/c

3) **I cannot wrap my brain around h being "totally happy" (so public about it) with zero contact with me and almost no contact with our children, few of our long term friends, none of my huge family - whom he loved, the loss of half the assets and far more than he apparently expected to lose, (for someone who thought this was "coming for a long time", he certainly did not plan out the details)...seems to have mostly new Alaskan friends who "like" his fb posts and praise him.

So knowing that at least some of this is uncomfortable for him, helps me not delude myself into thinking this was a breeze for him. That "all is GREAT now" (now that I've been replaced ) that image he is projecting - mightily and in everyone's face-- that is possibly the most frightening for me.

B/c it makes me feel very small. Like I wasted decades of my life being loyal to someone who didn't value it much at all.

**
Anyhow, yes, yes H is a proud proud man. That is another problem with his presentation to the world or at least up there. How could he ever "regret" his choices?

How can he retract his "New honey" from his world, now? Granted, we are not divorced and all those pesky details.

I think he's cornering himself into marrying her. Or plans to. And h sees nothing risky about that. Nothing rushed or odd, as it seems h has almost no self awareness or concern about how it looks to others, including to our children. He tries to talk about OW to them, and I'm told it bothers him that they are not interested in hearing about her.

Objectively speaking, that^^ is just weird. Looking back, I now see that H never saw himself as "leaving our family" when he went to do a fellowship, or when he went alone to Alaska the first time.

He'd say he was "just up the road" for the fellowship (300 miles) and was "just checking out a job" when he spent a year in Alaska, alone. That's convenient for him, but out of touch.

So, as our son said, he "substitutes his reality for ours"...and my gosh, that is true.

God, I was blind.

Try not to beat yourself up, 25.

You did everything you could to repair your marriage and you did. But H has issues that you have no control over that are manifesting in his life.

And honestly, I dont buy that H is happy for one minute. He slapped a band-aid (OW) to try to minimize the feelings he was having. The way he is publicly trying to show everyone how great his life is, speaks volumes to me. Overcompensation at it's finest.

As I'm sure you know, this R is very likely to blow up.

How did your therapy session go yesterday?

Try googling is the narcissist happy with the new woman. As I recall, you don't like labels, but this is exactly what they do. This may sound awful, along the lines of your confession to Sandi, but to see you go through the same emotions as the rest of us mere mortals is such a reminder about how all of this is so difficult and life-changing no matter how much you know and have lived through. The difference for you is that you are intelligent, compassionate, knowledgable and experienced. You will cycle through this faster than the rest of us. The short answer is no, he is not happier with the new woman. When people are truly happy, they don't need to broadcast it on FB.

Quote:

Sandi, would you mind writing a little bit more on pride for all of us?

I should have been more clear in the choice of words, so thanks for bringing it to my attention. I was not referring to a more healthy type of pride we feel from our accomplishments, or proud of our family, etc. I don't "think" I was prideful, in a vain sense of speaking, before my A.

I certainly was not proud of my behavior related to my affair. I think the term I should have used is "stubborn pride". We've all probably had elder relatives who struggled with some level of stubborn pride in their older years (not cooperating with what was best for them, etc).

Mainly, I am referring to myself as having stubborn pride, b/c I did not want my sin exposed. And, b/c I felt no remorse. I wanted my behavior to remain a secret, so my reputation would not be tarnished. And, as crazy as this now sounds, I did not want to disappoint people who saw me as some type of role model. (It is the wayward mindset that has these selfish, irrational thoughts). When it all hit the fan, I informed my H if he ever told my kids what I did, I'd hate him to the day I died. It was my way of trying to control the fallout of my actions.

I googled "stubborn pride", and this is part of the definition: "It can be manifest as a reluctance to apologize or take responsibility for your own actions". So, that's a light description of me after my H"s confrontation about the affair. Even when I ended the A and decided to do the right thing and stay in my M.........it seem to take me forever to reach the place of remorse. I would not humble myself and ask for my H's forgiveness b/c of stubborn pride in my heart. Not proud of my actions, but in my heart I wanted to blame my H for how he failed me for so many years. Where there is so much resentment, bitterness, and loss of respect toward the LBH......it is very difficult for the WW to let go of it and forgive her H. Our old natural/sinful side wants to hold on to all of that negative stuff in the past, and somehow try to justify our own terrible actions. It prevents a person from feeling true remorse.

Being raised as a Christian, I knew what I should do........but the stubborn pride held me back. I was holding on to the anger I had for my H. I even prayed that God would help me get to that place of feeling remorse. B/c I had to get right with God, then get right with my H. Every time I prayed, my mind would be filled with the issues that caused my anger. Finally, I understood that I would not feel remorse for my actions, until I could forgive my H of the past. That was tough, but I'm sure not any more so than my H forgiving me. When I let go and forgave my H for the past.....the remorse for what I had done to him hit, and I thought it would kill me. I don't know how one could feel true remorse without humility. When I finally went to him, I was broken hearted for what I had done to him, and to our M. You can't be that angry at someone and feel remorse for betraying them, b/c the anger prevents the humility.

I believe it is wrong to accept a so-called apology for having an affair that just says, "I made a mistake".....as if to brush it off and pick up where the the MR left off. An affair is not a mistake, as if making a typo. It was a conscious decision made from a free will. (The fact that the person was vulnerable, or whatever, makes no difference in getting the heart right toward the one that was betrayed. In fact, being vulnerable, angry, or whatever, just gives more self justification for having an affair). It should take more than just a simple "Sorry you got hurt" to the betrayed spouse. There should be evidence of a change in attitude and behavior. The apology should show obvious sorrow & humility. If there is no evidence of changed behavior, then I would doubt the sincerity of a changed heart.

I don't know that I've explain my process a little better.

Thanks to 25, for using space on your thread.

I have very little time at the moment, but I had to jump in. This thread is fantastic. Sandi, my H has said so much of what you write, almost identical. One of the main reasons it took him so long to end the A and come back to the M was his stubborn pride, which was his worst enemy. (I also did not DB or pave the way. Not at all). In fact I can recall several conversations we had--while he was gone and after he came back--that were very similar to your post. He felt the same way, and it was a constant internal struggle.

I also appreciate what you wrote to TxHub, but I wonder if you have done enough self exploration? Admittedly I have had reservations about my M and have viewed my H as "tainted" in some way too. It is much simpler to keep him in the blame, than look at myself and where I went wrong. Since he came back, he has done everything he can to make it work. The A was such a huge assault and what led to the separation, so it was the main focus. So while nothing I did justified his A and leaving, I must better understand how and where things fell apart. I have blamed OW a lot, but really, it was him that left me, not her. If things were better in the M, he would not have been vulnerable to the A to begin with.

I know if I want this M to work--and to genuinely reconnect with him, not just function well-- then I must focus on my side of the street. That is all I can control anyhow. He has said more than once that he "feels beneath me." It doesn't behoove me at all, or my M, to keep (subconsciously) him beneath me. That is not how I want him to feel either because I care about him. I know that in my head logically, and I hope I can get my heart on board soon. I don't believe I could have a successful reconciliation without truly understanding and forging H for the A. That will only come if I can understand why he became vulnerable to it in the first place.

Wish I didn't have to run back to work, but had to chip in.

Thank you for this conversation!
Blu

Originally Posted By: Thornton

Try not to beat yourself up, 25.

You did everything you could to repair your marriage and you did. But H has issues that you have no control over that are manifesting in his life.

I understand this^^, and agree with it, mostly. I didn't realize how resentful h must have been at me or his life, to have justified leaving 10 years ago, (though he never faced that it was he had done). And he was very repressed the past year with lots of dark parts I may not ever know...wish we had explored it, yada yada yada

So that's stuff I WISH we had done but que sera sera.

The other piece is my own personal work, including things I became complacent about, which I can discuss more later. But in sum,

I have to get out of h's head and keep him out of mine, or I'll stall out and spiral.

That's a big immediate need of mine now.

And honestly, I dont buy that H is happy for one minute. He slapped a band-aid (OW) to try to minimize the feelings he was having. The way he is publicly trying to show everyone how great his life is, speaks volumes to me. Overcompensation at it's finest.

Well, I know My h cannot be alone for long. (In contrast, I never have lived alone, till now. I'm fine with it so far).

Yes The way he posts on fb is, at best, weird as he11.

No it's Not the behavior of a content adult, let alone someone with children, or friends who had no idea we had split, and of course, let alone a spouse to whom they are still married and who deserves better. Clearly he's furious at me, which is on one hand, mind boggling, and on the other hand, totally logical in h's world.

Time will tell what role his very stubborn pride has, since evidently several people have told him they don't get the whole Alaskan thing and to slow the A down, to no avail,

or maybe he's nuts

or maybe she's the perfect fit for the new h...

As I'm sure you know, this R is very likely to blow up.

I hear you, (& my ego likes hearing that, I admit)

and while it's statistically likely to end, I'm forced to ask, so what?

B/c I cannot imagine us apart forever, and yet I cannot imagine taking him back.

How did your therapy session go yesterday?

New therapist was today and she's a Godsend.

Talked about everything from my mom dying, to having the last child leave for college, hearing a murder & finding the victim,

to moving for h's job, again, to "Alaska 2.0," and OW,

to my illness/implications, to h's AWOL and now here we are...

it's a lot - and it was condensed into 16 months and she got me to realize

I have permission to not have this all figured out yet.

Here is what I "Know".

H did not treat me well or how I deserved, for X amount of the past, and he sure isn't now. While I regret our m ending, I do not regret filing for D, given the situation.

H is responsible for his r's with our children. I won't ever hinder those r's, but I will never explain for him, again.

Goals for now

Learn to accept that my marriage is over and that I will be fine, anyhow.

*Yes, yes, I know of course that MIGHT change, in theory.

(It'd take years of work on his end just for me to know of any change in him, let alone to piece. Besides, if it happens I'll cross that bridge then.)

I cannot get to the other side of this ordeal if I keep looking over my shoulder to see what h is doing or thinking or feeling.

H cannot be a factor in any of my choices anymore

Embrace that this^^ reality is actually freeing.

How can I best take care of myself right now?

It appears to me that you are doing everything you can to process this loss and begin to accept it for what it really is.

Thanks for continuing to post. I often try to mirror what you are doing for yourself (when I'm not obsessing, of course).

Originally Posted By: OwnIt

Try googling is the narcissist happy with the new woman. As I recall, you don't like labels, but this is exactly what they do.

I will google it b/c hey, we all have our wounded ego moments and fears. FWIW, it was my youngest child who labeled h a narcissist and I balked. Anyhow Thanks

This may sound awful, along the lines of your confession to Sandi, but to see you go through the same emotions as the rest of us mere mortals is such a reminder about how all of this is so difficult and life-changing no matter how much you know and have lived through.

yes it is. Even when you "know" you will be alright, there are dark nights of the soul for each of us.

Nights when our worst fears about ourselves OR about our future, take hold

b/c our cognitive guard is down when we sleep or dig too deep into our own shadows...
and we have to climb back up and out of our hole to see the light again.

The difference for you is that you are intelligent, compassionate, knowledgable and experienced. You will cycle through this faster than the rest of us.

Thank you.

Having DB'd before, I said then that I'd never go through this again. I knew for me it was a once in a lifetime ordeal.

And while some of the emotions are the same, the 2 additional pieces are that A) it's better b/c I really will cycle through this faster and not waste nearly the same mount of time on things I have no control over

2) it's worse b/c i cannot believe it's happened again and b/c I see almost no chance of a recon again. That's regardless of what h feels or wants down the road, too. Which is sad

The short answer is no, he is not happier with the new woman. When people are truly happy, they don't need to broadcast it on FB.

OMG so true.

WACKY GOOD THING today...so on my way to the therapist office I found $40, just bills and looked around for anyone walking near me. Nope, no one.

Okay, thanks, universe. So then I meet the T and she's great and helpful.

So then I go to the grocery store (driving my sweet car which I've soooo missed)

and I meet the same cute guy in the store, the one who walked my groceries home last week, twice.

He's very attractive & warm. My peeps have teased me about him being my "new bf".

So today I'm pretty sure he asked me out. (Yeah, I'm rusty but he for sure is interested).

Yes, I KNOW I'm not ready to be in a r.

But dang, I am ready to have a cute guy ask me out. And it was really flattering.

Today was a lucky day.

Originally Posted By: Thornton

It appears to me that you are doing everything you can to process this loss and begin to accept it for what it really is.

Thanks for continuing to post. I often try to mirror what you are doing for yourself (when I'm not obsessing, of course).

So, your day is 1) "do what 25 said she is GOING to do, then

2) obsess

??

Sigh...I relate. Sometimes I think my time is spent this way

1) "do what you tell others to do (take my own advice)

and then

2) rehash all former obsessions, sprinkled with new updated ones, ignoring own advice."

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

Originally Posted By: Thornton

It appears to me that you are doing everything you can to process this loss and begin to accept it for what it really is.

Thanks for continuing to post. I often try to mirror what you are doing for yourself (when I'm not obsessing, of course).

So, your day is 1) "do what 25 said she is GOING to do, then

2) obsess

??

For the record, Thor is leaps and bounds above you being obsessive...

He can obsess twice as efficiently as most other people...

So numbers 2 through 10 all have to do with obsession....

And twice as fast...

: )

^^^ I got you beat, 25!

25, do not waste your time on the Affair. To me, an affair is unacceptable. I will never condone it. And there is no excuses that will make it ok. You work on the marriage or you end the it, then you do whatever you want. If he was unhappy with things concerning you or your marriage, he could have talked to you about it. Another woman could not fix his marriage problem. If he wanted out of the marriage, all he had to do was walk out. You did not hold him hostage. You trusted him and he betrayed that trust. Don' t ever forget that. It was NOT because of you. It was because of his own foggy history and the justifications he needed to create and believe.

Reflection for you: ( yes, I have ask myself this question ): What do you think his reactions would have been if the tables were turned? Would he have accepted your behavior?

^^^ hard to answer right? why? because you would NOT put yourself in this situation and you could NOT betray your spouse and tear the family apart.

I rest my case..

25--we make our own luck. Luck is being prepared when the opportunity arises. Keep flirting and when you get to that place, go for it!

Can a wayward be happy? Can FB nonsense be real?

Yes to both.

A wayward can be happy when they get what they want. I think we assume they can't but they can. Is FB real? Yes I think it can be.

We wish to believe it isn't happiness or its fake. Not necessasrily they can be ecstatic. Of course they can, an A partner can make a wayward happy.

They can be in limmerance and that can be lovely for them. It can be real too.

Making the LBS miserable can make the wayward happy too.

Frankly I think that's a good thing, the happier they are then the more they are deluded.

I personally don't like diagnosis by the self, so I am unsure googling anything to do with narc stuff is helpful. Only 2% of the population has these traits (apparantly) although the studies giving the stats are clinical. The stats are doubtful in my vieW.

It is by my actions you shall know me.

Happy or not the behaviour is truly rotten and those who do this are also behaving in a rotten way irrespective of their rotten core.

Waywards can be deluded and delusional.

Bragging on FB is at best bad manners and at worst idiotic.

Do I think happiness of the wayward matters? Not at all, not one jot. Does it matter if it crashes and burns? Does it matter if there is a sweet cycle?

What matters is what the LBS wants, the waywards happiness is irrelevant to that. Different circus and another's monkeys. Is it that if the Wayward is unhappy they will return repentant? I doubt that too. Will unhappiness want a wayward to return to an M they found unhappy?

Let the wayward be happy, then go be happy too.

V

Originally Posted By: exquisitetobe

25, do not waste your time on the Affair. To me, an affair is unacceptable. I will never condone it. And there is no excuses that will make it ok.

Exquisite I'm not bogged down in the affair. I'm not asking at all why he is with OW.

There is so much more history in our long m that it's not "the reason' We are apart anyhow. She may have been an exiting factor but there are rifts within h and apparently in our m, that were starting to crack before OW came along.

Last January unbeknownst to me H had again started making plans for Alaska, 2.0 and didn't tell me until late April. He repeated the pleas to get me to join him again, just as he had before.

Insistent angry pleas at times...it was not Alaska that made me nuts, it was the manipulating behind my back and not disclosing to me, while I was job hunting in places to make h happy (low taxes, outdoorsy places, low cost of living and politically like h, and near a hospital but where I could get my law license ETC ETC like algebra!)

Knowing he watched me go thru ^^ this process while hiding $hit from me, yet expecting me to join him almost by force of circumstance like a fait accompli

THAT^^^ ate away at my soul

So while the flaunting of the A hurts to know, it's so crazy and so fast that I don't give it as much headspace as I might have otherwise, and I don't consider it "the reason" we are divorcing.

I guess I don't have a lot of hard fast "never acceptable" rules - unless you mean that no matter what the circumstance, you'd file for divorce in the event your rule was broken.

I filed for divorce b/c I was put in an impossible situation and no one factor determined this,

though emotionally speaking, it was his failure to have my back when I was really sick last fall, that clarified things for me.

It was when i awoke in the hospital with a lot of fears and saw friends and family (but no doctor h there), that I knew in my heart I could not age with him, or stay married to him. If I had to choose one thing, that is what clinched it for me.

You work on the marriage or you end the it, then you do whatever you want.

but most people don't do this^^^. It's too hard.

If he was unhappy with things concerning you or your marriage, he could have talked to you about it. Another woman could not fix his marriage problem. If he wanted out of the marriage, all he had to do was walk out. You did not hold him hostage.

Exquisite ^^^ this was a 35 year marriage. Now you may not believe me but I don't think it's as cut and dried as you say. I filed for divorce, and h was surprised. I did not know of OW when I filed, btw.

Though I think he practically dared me to file, it's not what keeps me obsessing. I do not regret filing for D. I don't care much about the OW,

I simply mourn the loss of the m we once had long ago, and what I had hoped to have in our future, a future that would make the unrelenting sacrifices "all worth it"

I mourn the effects this is having and will have on our children, and their children and the generational fallout...

For now, usually, I am more focussed on my own part in this, in order to learn from it and to heal from it and to forgive myself and maybe someday to forgive h. Or at least let go of the self inflicted painful parts of this...

At this point I'm embracing what life has forced upon (or given) me,

b/c the alternative is despair, and I do not choose that.

Usually, not always but more often than not, the OW is a blip on my radar.

You trusted him and he betrayed that trust. Don' t ever forget that.

I appreciate the thought, but for me, I cannot live at peace thinking like that^^. I can't walk around "never forgetting" that.

He's the father of my children and though he has significant flaws, he has good traits too. Things I'll miss, including our history and our sense of humor and several areas in which we were very well suited.

But he mistreated me and he isn't trustworthy. I also believe he may be emotionally damaged and at least too much for this marriage to work out

That's ^^ usually enough for me to know. I think I will be a better partner b/c I will be more sure of myself and not have the nagging doubts I've had the past several years, off and on, and b/c I will dig when I'm not confident of what is going on. The way we did our first half, actually.

(I won't assume that silence or vague answers from my h means he's secretly planning a surprise anniversary party for me!!)

In my head I believe , (and my heart will catch up in time), I think that i'll have more authentic happiness and love in my life without h, than with. Definitely fewer let downs.

this^^ is what gives me the most reality based comfort.

It was NOT because of you. It was because of his own foggy history and the justifications he needed to create and believe.

Understood.

H complained to others about things he never told me. This is called "Collusion" where you do more than vent to a friend, - which we all do-- but in which you continue to harp about something (this could be your boss or a co-worker) but you never tell the right target. Either you are merely a complainer who likes to whine, or you are trying to get buy-in from this audience member, for you to do something later...like leave...and yet act as if you had good reason.

H had complaints that were divorce worthy, Not big things and things that were fixable without me, (like saying I could do more housework...I mean, really? We have 3 kids, a huge house and acreage, so hire a housecleaner if need be, it's not like we couldn't afford it)

But what matters is that I cannot recall a single time H complained of a messy house
to me.

But it apparently bugged him, or so he told himself & others, to justify whatever he was doing or planning. I guess I'm glad it wasn't a worse complaint...

Also some of his revisions are actually bold faced lies, but I think that h believes them. (This possibility - lies/vs convinced self of- , obsessed me for weeks).

My L said she thinks he believes what he says, b/c when she showed our tax returns to the court, H stared at the numbers as if he'd never seen them before...and h's L was shocked too. H's L denies knowing of other income...so, who knows??

It makes no substantive difference to me if he's lying and knows it, or lies and believes it. If it results in lousy behavior towards me, I no longer care what causes it.

I just can't spend more time in H's head though, you know?

I think I am locking myself out of h's head and locking him out of mine, b/c he's been taking up a lot of rental space in my head that I'm paying for.

Reflection for you: ( yes, I have ask myself this question ): What do you think his reactions would have been if the tables were turned? Would he have accepted your behavior?

gosh, which behavior? I failed at things. I lost a job, I became addicted to painkillers & went thru rehab while pregnant.

I held grudges and resentments, and until I DB in 2007, I kept score...

So after spending a year of my life here, a decade ago, asking unanswerable questions about "why? WHY???" and being so hurt and so angry at h, I GAL and learned to detach, and it lead us back to another 10 years. I have mixed feelings about that, but don't want to waste too much time ruminating there.

H wasn't perfect, but I was not either. This is not all on him.

^^^ hard to answer right? why? because you would NOT put yourself in this situation and you could NOT betray your spouse and tear the family apart.

I rest my case..

Um, "rebuttal"

I almost had an affair 9 years into the marriage. I stopped myself, barely, but only after tremendous self reflection. IF I had that kind of temptation at other harder times in my m, I like to think I'd say no...

Although I do think A's are always wrong, I do not think they are all alike.

Remember, I don't see my m ending b/c of OW. So much more to it. Not all of which I'll likely ever know or understand. Not all of it must be fully comprehended as long as we accept what we must.

For me, the OW on FB was more like icing on the $hit cake.

Vanilla

I get your point about LBSers being happy and not caring about anything on the other's "side" of the equation.

We are all we control. (Sorry, I cannot say I hope he's happier with her, yet).

Plus I don't want our kids to think checking out emotionally is better than working things out and being honest and open about how we feel, even when it's hard.

But when I do let myself obsess fear/worry or think "OMG what if he IS happier??"

Well, On my healthier days, I say "25, the only thing you can do to 'up your score' is to control your side of this. Live Your life... b/c that lessens the piece of this that feels unfair."
I know that h has mistreated ME and that's what matters to ME.

There is nothing I can do If he miraculously becomes the man he once was or who I always hoped he'd be...for HER... (statistically not likely but hey, who knows??)

The issues I had to work on were mostly resolved decades ago.

So I struggle with knowing I was a better wife the past 10+ years, I forgave more than I expected ever to be able to

and I "turned the other cheek", only to be here again now. (Like my other cheek got slapped.)

Vanilla, that's when I remember that what matters is that I was a better wife and that's a GOOD THING ---

and h wasn't very good to me the past X time (I vary in my estimate) and that's over now. H cannot mistreat me anymore once this D is final.

And that's what matters most.

I'm getting there, I really am.

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

H cannot mistreat me anymore once this D is final.

There have been several times in which I have read comments addressed to someone hoping to reconcile, like me, in which the writer says "There are two divorces, the legal divorce and the emotional divorce." The implication being, of course, that the paperwork doesn't matter and there may still be a chance to fix their situation.

H can mistreat you with a D or no D...if you allow it. You and I both know I'm no expert on this stuff, but despite all the crazy bull$hit going on in his head, you guys still have a connection (to some degree) which means he can still hurt you if you're not careful. Like facebook posts. Or one of your kids mentions something he did. Stupid $h�t, right? But I'm sure it will $uck regardless.

W and I both made independent decisions to shut off facebook in January. It was a nice tool to keep in touch with people, but given the current circumstances I have zero interest in it. Honestly, I really don't miss it. You can't insulate yourself from life, but there are probably some steps you could take to avoid some unnecessary bull$h�t. Just a thought, hang in there!

180,

I hear you, I think. So to rephrase. I will prevent him harming me to the extent a human with our history and children, can.

I've minimized incoming stimuli as best I can. I blocked h's fb and I had never looked at his page once he left for Alaska.

I have referred him to our L's for every financial demand he has made, which is costly in the short run. He is a poor negotiator, with an all or nothing approach to it. He assumes I want it all -whereas he wants me to get pretty much the minimum allowed by law. (At least, so far. Maybe that will change so we can both get on with our lives)

The first court hearing h showed up, but I did not need to be there.

The temporary support hearing went my way and infuriated h.
He threatened to quit THE GREATEST JOB EVER, to avoid paying.
His L told us that. H never communicated about money sent or when, not even by text.

So I got a wage garnishment then, which also bothered him, and the next week he was posting on fb that he's in a relationship.

Were the events^^ Connected? Who knows?? Who cares?

At the moment I can chuckle at that. No one who is normal and happily in a real r, posts like that -ever.

The way I see h now, is the most valuable asset I have.

Yes we did have an amazing connection for a long time and his bff reminded me the other day that yes it was a beautiful thing to witness, it was real and that means a lot. I don't want to belabor the point but I it helps me to remember. It was not all a fraud, and I don't have to see every joy of our past with new pain now. I care about him as the father of my children & assume I always will.

But I see him as someone else now. An atheist for one. That's a big change for me to see and it hurt my "Soulmate" image of h. Anyway

Would public news of a pending marriage to OW bother me? Of course.

under the circumstances it's less gut wrenching. Why?

Because I work hard on cognitive self awareness, & I am wise enough to know that no healthy reflective person would date so fast, and marry the first person they date, and so quickly, and after a long long marriage.

It's so cliched and unaware, that I think i'm lucky to be out of target range. I felt lucky to not have to meet h's expectations today, for the first time. I just felt relief...not loss.

I know I'll back slide & miss something or feel overlooked and forgotten, but today I'm going to remember this feeling...of being better off

Really I'm just learning not to take his acts so personally. I want him out of my head and heart as soon as possible.

I started to see a therapist in my new area today, and I'm blessed to have had 2 excellent ones first in CA and now here.

Plus the cute guy flirting happened at such a perfect time.

Yes, it was a Lucky day folks

Today was a lucky day!

You are ahead in so many area 25. You are blessed with knowledge. You already know that your feelings are totally normal. You know what to expect of yourself and this alone is golden. Remember the stages? I do not know what to tell you that could help you.all i can do is read your words as if i am lending an hear to a very dear friend. You are one amazing woman!! Keep it up!

Quote:

"IF this happens again, walk away and don't look back."

I miss him too. And that was fantastic advice to say the least. I hope you follow it and know that you left nothing on the table. Your STBX is a fool to be sure.

Quote:

I'm tired of trying to figure out the motivation or emotions or plans of someone else.

YES!

Quote:

I just hate that sick "WTF was I thinking?" feeling. I did not have that before.

My thought? I would venture that seems normal for everyone on this board, although it happens sooner in the cycle. You had a "long in-between" by comparison. Grief is what it is, and I suspect there will be more. I think it's ok though. It's part of the cycle.

Quote:

(But when I remind myself that I should treat MY Choices as if h is truly gone, and not factor him into the choices I make, I must say things do become clearer. So that helps me).

Nothing to add to this other than to call it out. In case it gets lost or forgotten.

Quote:

I think the fault that most LBS make are that they continue to be Co-dependent, conflict avoiding, enablers. - Cadet

I disagree, Cadet. I think the issue is more the honesty we have with ourselves. I think 25 hit it on the head

Quote:

But the other reason I did not see things more clearly, is b/c I wanted to believe the things that validated my choice to stay.

We tend to see what we look for, more often than not. And you know what? That makes us human and it makes us successful more often than not in my experience. Is it Pollyanna-ish? Maybe to some. But it's a more positive way to see life if you ask me. To do otherwise, is a bitter and dark way to live, although it would prevent us from getting hurt.

25, my sadness knows no bounds here. You have worked long and hard and I really had hoped for a different outcome. I'm very sorry to hear about the medical issues you faced and glad you're on the mend.
And I have to ask WTF!!?!! when it comes to why you didn't just tell him to get lost once you regained your health rather than giving him the choice to walk away? I think that really goes to how hard you were working on things, but wow. Just wow. (having been in that mindset, I do understand more than I let on.)

I also hope you truly have that peace with the effort you put in. I think it's normal to question if you should have done this or said that in the after action of the relationship. I pray that you spend a very short time of your life on that kind of stuff and get to GAL'ng without looking back. I admire you and the effort you put into your marriage and beliefs. I'm not going to say you are or were perfect, but I really admire that level of comittment and wish more people displayed it.

AJM

thank you...

and can someone start or link a new thread for me? Somehow, I still stink at this part

You start it - I will link it

How to start a thread

I will use what Job wrote

First Click on Newcomers then:

Originally Posted By: job

Go to the top of the screen and there is a new topic box on the left hand side. Click on it and then you will open the window to create a new subject as well as a posting. It's the same way that you created this thread.

Plus How to link your threads

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2588047#Post2588047

new thread

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2740011#Post2740011