Hi Blu, I am piecing too, I totally agree with your last post in your last thread.
Anxious to hear more about your situation. I am beginning to understand what everyone has said about this being a marathon and not a sprint, but I am only 7.5 months post-BD. You have been helpful to me in the past and I thank you for your wisdom from experience.
(corrected link for) Thread 1:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...289#Post2670289Update:
My update is that I don't have much to update. For me, this is good news. After several years of heartache, confusion, and then actively trying to piece, I am at a standstill. It is a welcomed break. My H did a 180 rather quickly and has been remorseful and consistent in his actions from day one. From reading here, I realize that this is not common. While I am grateful for it, I also need to honor my hard feelings.
V suggested a book on forgiveness that I am still reading. I want to be able to fully forgive him. What I have realized is that my understanding of what happened and time passing, have not alone led to forgiveness. My triggers have faded a lot--they are there, but they don't rattle me. I still have anger and resentment. Not just for the A and the choices he made to leave the M, but I am angry for what he destroyed between us. I do still believe that his A and him leaving for 10 months is what destroyed it. Despite our stresses and hardships before, we were still very much in love. There was closeness, respect, and a lot of attraction. I miss those feelings of intimacy. I know things will not go back to the way they were for the first 10 years, but it is hard to imagine what it will look like moving forward. This is not the M that I imagined.
Things are fine in general. Our M and family function well; we both work, take care of kids and home, and we agree this is what we want. While he snapped out of his fog 2 years ago, he still can more clearly see what a terrible mistake it was. While I logistically know I want this M to work, I often wonder when my heart will follow my head. I don't "feel" that I am in love with him. I also struggle with respect.
So for now, I continue on and accept the present. We still plan time together and have dates. From the outside, everything looks pretty normal. I am not sitting and waiting for things to change. My goal is to continue to GAL, 180, and DB in general, not necessarily detachment, but a focus on healthy attachments.
Blu
Hey Blu!
How are ya?!
Your comment about being angry about the old M caught my attention.
Are you angry about the loss of innocence that you and H once had together? Isn't this an area where you perhaps need to work on in forgiving H for the betrayal of such wholesome innocence by dishonoring it?
What do you think?
I'd like to ask those who are piecing a question.
An MLCer who left a marriage will experience changes to the practical and emotional dimensions of her/his life. The practical dimension might include things like more money to spend, enjoying new home, and having less responsibility with kids -- to speak of positive changes only. The positive changes in the emotional dimension might include things like feeling more freedom and more excitement with new lovers.
I imagine that when some of those above things turn negative -- for example, instead of feeling more freedom, they feel lonely; or instead of feeling infatuated with a new lover, they become disappointed and disillusioned w/ the new lover -- that's when they might start to think about the LBS. "Hm, maybe I made a mistake...."
My question is this: it seems to me that when the EMOTIONAL things go bad for the MLCer, they might start to regret what they've done. But when the PRACTICAL things go bad for the MLCer, it probably won't make them regret -- instead they'll just resent the LBS for giving them a raw deal in life.
Do you think that's generally true? Will an MLCer really think about returning to a marriage because, gee, it sure was easier to pay the bills, keep the house clean, mow the lawn and fix our appliances when I was married?
I'd appreciate any thoughts, however speculative.
Blu,
I always read your posts - you are inspiring.
I'm coming up soon on a year divorced, so you putting effort in is so, so admirable.
I really now BELIEVE the EX-WW is gone for good, and even if she regretted doing what she did, and she has told me she's going to marry her now divorced boyfriend, I would not be able to take her back. I have moved on, and have become a changed person, a happier person.
ForGump - I think the MLC'ers and those waywards who divorce (like mine) often have deep regrets that they cover up with other sins. Sometimes the hole is just too deep. It's easier to shovel another load of dung on top and keep filling the hole. Others, the brave ones, find help, stop throwing dung, and then have to dig to the bottom. Only when they hit bedrock, and build from the very bottom of the barrel or hole, will they live an authentic, genuine, true life.
I also can see (but it might not hold true) that for men, they might snap out of MLC's faster, as men are not as emotionally functioning as most females... I say most, as I am a pretty emotionally mature guy, after the last year and a half. They might be able to put the tail between their legs and come home. Pride, though, is a really really tough sin to overcome. Some have learned from childhood to save face at all costs. It's really sad.
Hey Blu!
How are ya?!
Your comment about being angry about the old M caught my attention.
Are you angry about the loss of innocence that you and H once had together? Isn't this an area where you perhaps need to work on in forgiving H for the betrayal of such wholesome innocence by dishonoring it?
What do you think?
Wonka, thanks for posting. I have tried to dig deeper on this, I have. Unfortunately, better understanding doesn't seem to help. We went to MC for a year, I have read books on it, and I have talked to my trustworthy people. Perhaps I don't know HOW to work on it. I don't want to live my life as a scorned woman. I want to forgive him, and I want to fall in love with him. I still have this anger though. I am angry at what he did and with who he did it with--she is awful (desperate, manipulative, and vindictive) and she had this in the works for longer than he knew. It is hard for me to accept that he could destroy our M and tear apart our family for that. While it is not that black and white, ultimately he left me to pursue that. He didn't even try to work through our struggles. He bailed. I always stuck by his side through thick and thin. He admits all along he knew he was wrong (from the EA to the full blown R with her when he left me), he knew it was running from his life, yet he did it anyway. He made choices over and over again to hurt me and the kids and it went on for so long.
Also, I am angry that his choices led to a loss of what we had. I know it is not just about her. I know that he couldn't handle things between us and just ran to whatever "made" him feel better. I feel as if we had something special--beyond innocence--we had a close R, we talked about everything, laughed, cried, were compatible (and still are) in so many ways, and we had this incredible attraction. Amazing sex all the time. We wanted the same things in life and we talked about it a lot. We have everything. It still hurts me that he gave up me and then essentially watched me fall.
So now he regrets it all. He has worked on himself and changed. I cannot think of one good reason today to leave him. But my heart. My heart is still so wounded.
I am not sure if that makes sense. 2*4s welcome as always. I will reply more and to the others later.
Thank you,
Blu
Blu,
Thank you for posting, I agree with Trumpet on that you are inspiring! :-) Even though my stbx didn't come back I think if she had I would have the same feelings as you. I stuck by her side through thick and thin for 9 years and one time we had an issue which was pulling us in different directions she ran so she could feel better.
I still can't understand it at all, we had the type of relationship that you described, we too had everything and she just walked away.
I can see the effort you are making and hopefully you will get the feeling that you want back.
I don't really have any advice I just wanted to thank you for posting and sharing your story.
Hello bluwave
No 2 x 4s ! Your feelings are your feelings and totally understandable and justifiable. You do not have an easy situation. Because while you now have choice , stay married or end the marriage (something the LBS does not get) you also now have responsibility that comes with being given an option. In a way, Those of us whose spouses left have it easier. We have no choice but to move on. We do get the choice of whether to find happiness in what we are given.
There is a poster that often writes following your beliefs over your feelings. I think if your belief is to stay married, you too get the simpler option of finding happiness in what you are given, and that is your marriage back.
Now if your belief was that you do not stay married after infidelity, then you would find happiness moving forward (like you did when ex left).
I guess you have to come to tems with what your beliefs are. What is forgivable in your mind? Not easy.
I also wonder if the anger and love loss that you feel now is similar to the anger and love loss that our spouses experienced that allowed them to leave and betray us. I know rationally...not comparable, but in their minds?
For Gump...very interesting speculations. It makes sense. I too would like to hear more about this.
This thread is much much where im at, as i sit awake in the middle of the night trying to grasp whats going on.
Thank you all for your stories and advice.
I believe in marriage and fundamentally want to do everything to make it work, but yesterday wife said its over, nothing will change that, she wants full separation, and she does not believe in marriage. She wants what will make her happy (she feels she will be a better mother without me in the picture).
I need to completely detach, and truly forgive. I know the resentment and other negative feelings that have kept me up all night are bad.
Oh, and tomorrow is my daughter's birthday party so i have to see wife and her parents. It will be hard.
Hey Forgump I think you're on to something. My WW has been able to rough through 7 months of financial hardship and taking a hit to her credit score and is still not wanting to talk about the R. It seems as if any emotional loss, ie. the kids staying at my house instead of hers and she starts gbecoming more vulnerable.
I'd like to ask those who are piecing a question.
An MLCer who left a marriage will experience changes to the practical and emotional dimensions of her/his life. The practical dimension might include things like more money to spend, enjoying new home, and having less responsibility with kids -- to speak of positive changes only. The positive changes in the emotional dimension might include things like feeling more freedom and more excitement with new lovers.
I imagine that when some of those above things turn negative -- for example, instead of feeling more freedom, they feel lonely; or instead of feeling infatuated with a new lover, they become disappointed and disillusioned w/ the new lover -- that's when they might start to think about the LBS. "Hm, maybe I made a mistake...."
My question is this: it seems to me that when the EMOTIONAL things go bad for the MLCer, they might start to regret what they've done. But when the PRACTICAL things go bad for the MLCer, it probably won't make them regret -- instead they'll just resent the LBS for giving them a raw deal in life.
Do you think that's generally true? Will an MLCer really think about returning to a marriage because, gee, it sure was easier to pay the bills, keep the house clean, mow the lawn and fix our appliances when I was married?
I'd appreciate any thoughts, however speculative.
FG, this is a very interesting perspective that you bring up. I can see where you are going with it and it does make sense. I can try and think about it in my sitch, but I don't feel that I can generalize that same concepts to others. Also I don't see how they are mutually exclusive in that you can give more weight to one over the other, as both have an affect on the other and compound it.
When my H left for OW, he was essentially running from his life--the "emotional" side and the "practical" side (per your descriptions). Things were hard emotionally for him as he suffered from Nice Guy syndrome and felt unappreciated and empty, we had multiple family stressors/losses, and I was not able to meet him where he was at (thus adding to him feeling run down). In terms of the practical, well things were very hard with our children, parents, jobs, financial stresses, however he also feared having to face that all alone.
When he left, he had a very short lived period of relief from both. He does say now that he was plagued the entire time with guilt (for hurting everyone) and feeling like a failure for giving up and not working on the hardships. It was his entitlement (ie Nice Guy not meeting his own needs and blaming me) that justified his leaving. Then when he left and started dating her, my hurt/anger/lashing out started, which only reinforced why he left. So round and round it went.
He soon realized that the issues he had with OW were the same with me, which forced him to look at himself. He all along questioned their R, as he knew something was not right--he knew he was running to her for security and validation, and that she was not a person he would have ever been with had the circumstances been different. So he further started to miss me, beyond the guilt of hurting me. He also saw how much he hurt the children when he broke apart our family. He didn't have much support from family/friends either, because they all knew he was making a mistake.
The practical side was also very difficult. He was living at his parents, as an adult with a W and children, and had to commute further to work. He saw the kids at our house sometimes and brought them to his parents some of the time, which was very difficult. Then he had to balance seeing OW at her place (she left her H at the same time but got her own place). She became increasingly insecure and needy and that took a toll on him. She wanted to spend more time with him, wanted him to plan things, wanted to go on vacations, and even wanted to live together and get together with our kids (even though they all knew each other!). He didn't want to live with her or combine families, and he knew logically it would not work. So it was difficult situation logistically, which also made the emotional aspect more difficult.
So in my sitch it was both and one constantly affected the other, and he eventually went on a downhill spiral and hit rock bottom. In the meantime I started to give up on the idea of him and planned a life without him. I also stopped spewing and got better at DB.
I had brought up similar questions with my IC when he was gone and with our MC when he first came back. I wanted to make sense of it all and I am sure you all do too. The best I learned is that there are as many differences in our sitches as there are similarities. It is very difficult to predict the tipping point for leaving the M and for returning to the M. What I gather reading here is that a lot of WAWs in particular have been suffering for years and the H is oblivious to how serious things are. By the time H loses her, then he is motivated to make changes, however it is often too late and she is completely checked out.
In terms of waywards, well I think it depends on if the S was at risk of walking away and then found the A, or if the S found the A and then left to pursue OP. In the case of my H, he would not have left if there was no OW. She worked very hard to pursue, manipulate, and flatter him. He was extremely vulnerable to this (and most likely it could have been with someone else too) and so he ran. He ran and learned that everything was crumbling--emotionally and practically.
I am not sure that helps. I do think there are some differences between my H and the S's I read about here. In terms of MLC, well I don't know how much I believe that. One could argue that my H was in a MLC just as well as I could argue that he was not. I think we like to find commonalities and labels because it MAKES US FEEL comfortable and hopeful. It takes the pressure off of us and helps us understand the why. In reality, we may never completely understand why. There are still things about my H (and what he did) that I don't understand. Equally, there are things that he doesn't understand about what happened either. He never thought he was capable of any of this and he still is ashamed that it happened.
So what it boils down to for all of us is that we will never completely understand why they do what they do. We can't know if they are having a MLC because we are not them and we are not in their heads. It behooves us far more to focus on what WE CAN control, and that is ourselves. Also, as you become the stronger, more confident, and "better" version of you, then consequently you are more likely going to attract them back. All of this takes a long time.
I know this is hard. You will get there eventually. But you have to take that first step and just let go.
Blu
It is always nice to hear from you Blu
I was reading back on some of your previous posts and I have listened to everything you and all the other vets have said, but honestly I still have not really put all of the advice of DBing into practice.
Some things you said in your previous posts stuck in my mind, you said......
"I can't keep beating myself up over it, but I can now, start to focus more on my own happiness, what I want, and really learn to take care of myself"
"Take care of the person that matters most. YOU!"
"Be kind to yourself"
I know for me FEAR is such a huge part of my decisions. I am not implying that any of what you are dealing with is fear. I also wonder if I would ever be able to totally forgive my H for the A.
You have come such a long way and have gone through some much and have been fortunate enough to come out on the other side. I would never be able to give any kind of advice to you. But I do like what someone said earlier about you having a choice to make, either stay in the M and find happiness, or end the marriage and find happiness elsewhere. Neither is an easy choice and definitely not one to be taken lightly.
Thank you for sharing
skyhigh, do you have a thread? It would be nice to read more threads on piecing, and I know we need the support too. There is a lot of assumptions that most DBers don't ever make it to piecing, but I also think that is when people stop posting. I know I don't visit here nearly as much as I did when H first left.
SBJ, thank you my friend. I am glad that my posts are helpful. Honestly, I got so much out of this site when my H first left. I would read here daily, and while I didn't post, it helped me not feel alone in what I was going through. So I post here in part to "pay it back" and also because it helps me to process my own sitch and feelings.
trumpet, wow, thank you for saying that I am inspiring. I certainly don't feel that way! In fact when I read the other posters' struggles, it tugs at my heart strings, and I can relate. I actually can see now how I messed up all the time. It took me a very long time to let go of H and start implementing the DB principles. And I don't think that it was my effort or work that brought him back. I actually think he would have come back anyhow--as we have talked about it all, I can understand that he had shame and regret for the A and for leaving from day one.
hawker, thank you. I follow your sitch too. I think you are very level headed and I admire you. I think you are going to be fine with or without her :-) You are much better at DB than I ever was.
jujuB, thank you for stopping by. I have been thinking about what you said. I agree that I will find happiness and I think we all will if we can choose to. It is a choice. Yes, belief over feelings--yes, agreed 100%! Feelings change all the time. Today I woke up happy, then something bad happened and I was frustrated and cried, and now I have processed it but feel better and a bit numb. And it's not even lunch time!
Here is the thing about beliefs tho--they don't cycle like feelings do, but they CAN change. You see when I met my H, I was much younger and inexperienced in life. When we married, I believed that any type of infidelity was a deal breaker. I believed that our M was a choice that we made every day and we even wrote that into our vows. I also believed that if we chose to no longer "choose" each other each day, then we would end it. I thought it was my deep love and attraction for him that kept me there each day.
Well that was many years ago. I like to think that I am not only older, but wiser as well. If I still held these beliefs, then my M would have been over years ago. Today, I believe in the institution of M--the financial commitment, the family commitment and that being together is best for our children, and that really there are no "deal breakers" per se, but that we both have to make a conscious commitment to keep working together. We now understand the value of being M over time and the benefits to each person in the family. It's all very unromantic, isn't it?
What has changed the most is what I perceive as happiness. Through this painful journey, the greatest silver lining for me has been that I know where happiness comes from. It is from me and it is inside of me, and not from anyone else. It always was, but I didn't know that then.
Okay, I gotta run, but I will be back later, as I owe you all a hello and thank you for reading :-)
Love,
Blu
Yeah, Bluwave has arrived! I constantly read your threads as you did the DBing task and came out on top. I am in the infantile stages of piecing and find it harder than the LRT. My biggest challenge is resentment right now. My DB coach said I am stuck on "Someone needs to pay" and he's right. Reading about your struggles after piecing began has helped me immensely. I have found comfort in knowing that this is to be expected.
Has your H attended IC? What about reading books? If so, was he the type of guy to go to counseling before or read up on relationship repair? I am trying to find if I am trying to force my way of remorse on my WH or if this is appropriate to expect these things? So far my WH has only attempted to read "How to help your spouse heal from your affair" once and that was before the second time he cheated with same OW. Obviously it didn't sink in at the time. In his defense he simply doesn't read, not for enjoyment and grudgingly for studying. His actions are kind and gentle but I still have this humongous wall of resentment in my way.
Kevin: "I need to completely detach, and truly forgive. I know the resentment and other negative feelings that have kept me up all night are bad." Kevin, that is a lot of pressure! I think you are setting yourself up for failure. I'm not even sure how anyone could force themselves to do that! My H has been back for a long time--and done almost everything he can--and I am still not able to truly forgive him.
Also, I don't think detachment is something we can "do." I think it is the consequence of doing other things, such as taking care of yourself first, GAL, and doing 180s for yourself. As you begin to find yourself (reattach to a healthy R with the self) then you can begin to detach from an unhealthy R with a codependent M. So give yourself a break. Do the opposite of pressuring yourself to forgive someone that hurt you. Find yourself, mend, heal, love, and value yourself. If you see yourself as worthy of this love, then others will too.
Skm, I have a lot of fear also. Maybe it's just a normal part of being human. It's when fear stops us from moving forward that we need to check ourselves. The entire time H was gone, I was drowning in fear. I had to force myself to do everything--eat, sleep, go to work, think clearly, spend time with kids, etc--and I felt like a shell of a person. Looking back though, I can see that as afraid as I was, I still did it. I kept trying over again each day and that's all I could do.
I still have a lot of fears. The difference now is that I believe that everything will be okay. It may not be the way I want it to be, and things may fall off track, but I know that with or without a man in my life, I will be just fine. I can see now that I wasnt that strong before--I had a very codependent and unhealthy M, so when H left, I was broken. No longer the case because I found myself in this mess. My mother still has not and I can see so clearly now that I don't want to live like that--she needs a man to feel whole. I want my daughters to learn this much earlier in life--they don't need anyone but themselves. I hope now that I am leading by example.
I have noticed that you often wonder if you will be able to forgive be him. Or do you mean have a M with him? In your thread you even pondered that if he came back, could you forgive him and see past what he has done. I used to think the same thoughts. But you know what? It doesn't serve you at all. You have to learn to thought stop and let that go. Why? Because you will never find an answer, you cannot know what is not there. Until he actually comes around and shows you a person worthy of your forgiveness, then how can you answer it? And even in the case of my H--who has come around and done all that he can--I still struggle with it. I am reading a great book on forgiveness and what I am taking away is that you can accept your reality without forgiveness. I think there is far too much pressure (especially in religions) to forgive. Also, it means something different to us all. I personally want to forgive my H--not for him, but for me--however it is taking me a very long time. If he had not come back and shown remorse and asked for forgiveness, then I would it even focus my energy on it. That's me tho.
Blu
Sara, I don't know how you do it sometimes. My H came back remorseful, ashamed, and asking for forgiveness. He saw an IC the entire time he was gone and after, but honestly I think that guy made it worse. That's my opinion tho. He read books. We also went to MC for a year when he came back. I am the one that wanted to stop, the constant triggers were just too painful, I needed a break. The difference with my H is that he felt guilty and ashamed all along. He must have felt entitled to even have an A, but he never made excuses, and from day one he said that he knew it was wrong, it was a mistake, but that he couldn't help how he felt. I could see his conflict all along.
I don't know what I would have done otherwise. I still struggle with forgiveness. I still have resentment. I don't know how you couldn't also! I guess your biggest test is time and patience. Things will keep changing and you can stay the course without acting on your emotions. As time goes on, yes, I think you will need to see his remorse. How can you truly fall in love again without him being sorry for hurting you?
Maybe don't get ahead of yourself. This is a marathon, isn't it? You have chosen to honor your vows, M, and family. You are working on your positive changes and you will have those forever. He will find his way too. It sounds like he is going to need a longer, slower process. I hope he can get there.
Blu
Hi Blu,
I am thinking of starting my own thread, I just need to find the time to do it. Life has been very crazy busy lately and with my husband who entered his "needy" phase, I feel I have 4 kids instead of 3 at home.
Like you I am a firm believer that detachment is essential and clinging or begging are recipes for disaster.
skyhigh, that would be nice if you started a thread. I think it's can be therapeutic to journal thoughts/feelings. I also think it helps those newly LBS (or the ones feeling stuck) to see that life won't necessarily be better if the S comes back. It also shows the importance of DB. I didn't DB well enough and it has made piecing harder. It's hard to DB and piece at the same time. I am realizing more that I have developed some unhealthy coping mechs. It's also hard to move forward and forgive H when I've got all this on my plate. Not going to beat myself up for it tho--such is life.
You mentioned he is "needy" and I think it was you that told Sara, it takes time for them to become remorseful. I honestly wonder if waywards follow some sort of trajectory or if they are all different. My H didn't go through "phases" and has been fairly consistent for the last 2 years. He sometimes says that he feels like he is waiting for me and trying to be patient. He has also said that he feels beneath me and at times not good enough. Admittedly, I keep him at arms length. Not sure how long that will last, but that is what feels safe for me right now. I can't hand someone my heart when I know they can break it.
I met this very lovely elderly woman last week and we talked about M. She opened up that she has been with her H for 40 years and they were very happy. Her first M lasted 20 years, but that was because they had children and a home so she tried to make it work. There was infidelity and I don't think she ever fully moved passed it. She said her second M is so much better, and they were both M and had kids that were adults (then D) before they met. I couldn't help but wonder if that will be me one day. Maybe in 10 plus years I will move out of this M?
I also met another man who opened up about his M and wife. Also a second M and things were better. I got the sense there was infidelities in his first M too. He asked me about my M and I shared some things. He told me how he hopes my H appreciates me, etc. He was so kind and flattering. It made me feel resentment for my sitch and my H. Ugh.
So I think I have shared before that I work in critical care--I meet a lot of older patients, and they are often very ill and vulnerable. Or, I get to know a partner who is watching a loved one die. I think what I love about my job is getting to know people for who they are. I can find wisdom in anyone--even from the severely mentally ill and drug addicted. There is something to learn from everyone. It's humbling actually; I might look like I have it all on the surface, but I know I am no better than anyone.
So I talk a lot to my patients about M. I have met so many people that have been married for 40, 50, and even 60 years. It's pretty cool to hear how they make it work. It sorta keeps me going. Sadly tho, I find in my research, that those long Ms don't have the heavy baggage that mine does. Of course they all tell me it's never perfect, however their idea of "not perfect" is far from the disasters that I have faced in my M! Sigh.
Blu
Hi Blu,
I understand the difficulty of being able to forgive and move passed the resentment. Forgiveness doesn't come naturally to us.
Do you love your H? Do you think if you can get beyond resentment and offer your forgiveness that you can get to a happy place in your M/R? Of course it isn't always going to be happy, but you get the idea.
This is one of my favorite quotes about forgiveness: To forgive is to set a prisoner free and discover that the prisoner was you.
It is interesting how we can become a prisoner to resentment and how it is like an emotional cancer. Additionally, when we focus on the things that feed that emotion, it is what manifest in our hearts.
It reminds me of this Cherokee Indian Legend:
An old Cherokee is teaching his grandson about life. “A fight is going on inside me,” he said to the boy.
“It is a terrible fight and it is between two wolves. One is evil – he is anger, envy, sorrow, regret, greed, arrogance, self-pity, guilt, resentment, inferiority, lies, false pride, superiority, and ego.” He continued, “The other is good – he is joy, peace, love, hope, serenity, humility, kindness, benevolence, empathy, generosity, truth, compassion, and faith. The same fight is going on inside you – and inside every other person, too.”
The grandson thought about it for a minute and then asked his grandfather, “Which wolf will win?”
The old Cherokee simply replied, “The one you feed.”
In my sitch, my W focused on the negatives. So much so that she even turned some of the positives into negatives. Today she doesn't understand why. I believe that when people become so unhappy and filled with resentment, the happy times become unclear. That's why we see so many WAS are history revisionist.
Blu, which wolf are you feeding?
Thank you for this. I don't know. I think it changes from week to week. But I will say that I personally am not filled with unhappiness or resentment in general. Someone at work commented today on how happy I seem lately. I feel good about my Rs with my kids, family, friends, coworkers, etc. I recently ended a friendship, which is unusual for me. It's sad, but at the same time I am relieved because she is a negative and pessimistic person. Whenever we spent time together, there was a lot of venting and bad mouthing involved. I have reached out to her several times in the last couple years, only to be met with how hard things are for her and how depressed she is. She has made no effort and doesn't get even get back to me. I am done. The friends I spend time with now are much more present and supportive. The Rs are upbeat and fun, but I can also be myself. It's easy. It feels healthy. I am accepting that not all Rs are forever. We change and grow, and it's okay to move on.
Now in terms of my M, I don't know how unhappy I am, but yes, I am resentful. I don't feel optimistic, or love, or joy when I think about my H or spend time with him. It feels like we go through life just taking care of work, family, and home together. My joys are with others and in things I can accomplish myself. I don't stew in negative feelings, but I generally don't feel close to him.
When things are smooth and I do feel close to him, I also think it's because I am making an effort. It's like he is waiting, but for what, I don't know. He's is just there. I don't like this back seat approach--it's more Nice Guy behavior. I want a man that will take a stand. I don't think he was ever that man. I think I saw what I wanted to see.
I met this couple today at a kids activity. Really nice people and they seemed so comfortable with each other. It was sweet. They reminded me of how we used to be many years ago. These two have been together 25 years tho. It just looked easy and right. I miss that. I wonder if I will ever have that again. And with who? I just can't imagine feeling that way about my H most days. Just being honest.
Blu
25yearsmlc, would love it if you would stop by and give me some feedback. I used to read your posts a couple years ago. I appreciate your advice and what you bring to the board. I recall that you and your H were split for some time and then made it work. Are you happier with him than before DB?
I am not even sure what I am asking for exactly. Most of the posters here are not in my sitch, are newly LBS, and it seems they even look to me for guidance. I know I could have done a better job at DB, but that is in the past now.
I would love to understand how you made it work again. How did you fall in love again? I just don't see that happening. Sometimes, like today, I wish he never came back. Sigh.
Thank you,
Blu
25yearsmlc, would love it if you would stop by and give me some feedback. I used to read your posts a couple years ago. I appreciate your advice and what you bring to the board. I recall that you and your H were split for some time and then made it work. Are you happier with him than before DB?
If the question is whether I was happier with him before he was a jerk, yes I was.
But if you are naming "DB" as an issue, I would say that DBing is a life approach in many respects, and I have no regrets there.
But no, 10 years later, no I am not now happier with h.
And I'm going to post my situation update soon.
Blu, I truly believe if my H had done the work your h is, and you really believe he means it, then it's about how you do the whole "forgiveness process." And that might be on you. Love is partly an act of choice and I think you may need date nights and romance to spark the fire *BUT* if that ignites other "stuff" for you, then maybe you need to figure out how to rid yourself of the PTSD affects of what you went through. It is absolutely a traumatic ordeal.
What specifically have you done to help let go of the sh!t you are replaying and feeling?
I am not even sure what I am asking for exactly. Most of the posters here are not in my sitch, are newly LBS, and it seems they even look to me for guidance. I know I could have done a better job at DB, but that is in the past now.
I would love to understand how you made it work again. How did you fall in love again? I just don't see that happening. Sometimes, like today, I wish he never came back. Sigh.
Thank you,
Blu
I don't know about the term "falling" in love as if it's an accident you hope will "happen to" you.
It takes effort but that doesn't undermine the magic of it. I still feel sparks for h. That might be a forever thing.
What was it like before, in terms of chemistry and what is it like now? What are the triggers that make you wish he never came back?
Can you be specific?
Hello Blu wave
I have always read about how difficult piecing is. I always imagined I would like that experience. To have that power of being less invested in the relationship, whIle your partner who had greatly wronged you is fully vested and trying whatever they can do to win back your love and trust.
(Of course if your not invested, one would not even want that power I suppose).
Your sentiment seems to be a similar sentiment to that of the WAS. They view the LBS as partners who had greatly wronged them, whether it was through neglect, criticism, or negativity.
If you could go back to your husband pre BD, pre affair and give him advise on how to make his marriage work. How to rid himself of the negative feeling regarding you that he had built up, that had to have been there to make him capable of betrayal what would that advise be?
Hello Blu wave
I have always read about how difficult piecing is. I always imagined I would like that experience. To have that power of being less invested in the relationship, whIle your partner who had greatly wronged you is fully vested and trying whatever they can do to win back your love and trust.
I think that^^ is unusual.
(Of course if your not invested, one would not even want that power I suppose).
Your sentiment seems to be a similar sentiment to that of the WAS. They view the LBS as partners who had greatly wronged them, whether it was through neglect, criticism, or negativity.
that's why some LBSers b/c WAS later...
If you could go back to your husband pre BD, pre affair and give him advise on how to make his marriage work. How to rid himself of the negative feeling regarding you that he had built up, that had to have been there to make him capable of betrayal what would that advise be?
interesting question
[quote=JujuB]Hello Blu wave
I have always read about how difficult piecing is.
Most LBSers dream of being there. Sadly, many assume they are in "piecing" before they should, and are so terrified of losing the m that they have DB'd their way to save, that they don't set realistic boundaries.
And or they don't make the changes in themselves and as a couple, that they need. They think sorrow and remorse on the WAS's part is the cure. There is so much more to repairing the m, and some of it must come from the LBS.
I always imagined I would like that experience. To have that power of being less invested in the relationship, whIle your partner who had greatly wronged you is fully vested and trying whatever they can do to win back your love and trust.
I'm not sure why piecing would even start if both parties are not fully invested.
If an LBSer is really in the position where THEY want to reconcile, (and not just "win"), they won't stand back to watch their spouse do all the heavy lifting.
Besides, the LBSer who really wants to reconcile, will have done their own soul searching and made some changes in themselves.
I know the fear in the LBSer is that if they turn the other cheek, they'll get slapped again. They believe that forgiveness might somehow set them up for another heartbreak. And they have every right to be extremely cautious. Not withholding, but cautious.
Hence the need for loving respectful, clear boundaries and a whole lot of sometimes uncomfortable communication from both. I think virtually all couples will need new tools for this. And one change would be to schedule and keep the couple time going, over time. Not forced romance so much as time together without distraction. Even once a month helps a lot, over time.
Thank you. I'll be back later and reread this, as I need to run out the door.
Quick update : Last night H initiated R talk. It's happened several times now. Long and emotional ...
This is what it keeps coming to--he is miserable, waiting for me, and begging to go to MC. Then he says it has to come from me. Then he asks again and again. He is spinning. If he were anyone else I would send him to DB land for some 2*4s!
I'm not sure what to do. I am content with my life and my other Rs. But--the big but--is that I don't know how to accept and forgive this A so we can build something new. I have thought and processeed in every way I know how and I still feel a lack of respect for him and detached.
I'll be back later!
(2*4s and advice always welcome)
Blu
Why not go to MC with him and talk about the difficulty you're having with forgiveness? Seems exactly what MC is designed to help with.
25yearsmlc, I wasn't able to pull your signature up in a quote, but I wanted to let you know that I've never heard truer words than "FORGIVENESS: Our way out of hell". In the past I wouldn't have gotten it, but after going through it, I get it.
(((Blu))) I wanted to let you know I stopped by and read the last two months or so of updates. I don't feel I have much to contribute because you have said you need to do what I also think you need to do (truly forgive him, fall in love with him again), but I admire your commitment, and his, to spend the time required for it to work.
OK, I just re-read your most recent update(and I do have something to say) about your husband being frustrated, and I understand his frustration. I bet he feels like this is you punishing him, slow and steady, for the bomb he dropped on you. Understand that there may (and likely will) come a time when he detaches lovingly and walks away.
Have you considered separation? I know you were separated for like a year before, but the choice wasn't yours and the circumstances were completely different. You frequently comment on how it's just nice to take a break from R talks and constantly working on the R. Maybe you need a real break from it, like a couple of months away from each other, the less you see or talk the better. It will really give you guys a chance to find yourselves and hopefully what you really want, instead of just fighting for the relationship everyday because it has become the new routine.
I only suggest this because you have been piecing for so long, I know piecing takes years, but you should constantly be moving forward and I fear you've been stuck on the forgiveness stage for a long time.
Take a break, enjoy yourself, decide if your hearts really in it, or if it's just convenience.
as for logistics, it's tough, but maybe you each could take back to back 2 week vacations and go away and visit family, then someone move out for a month or two (look at craigslist, maybe someone can sublease a place for a couple of months).. just a thought.
Blu,
I don't have and advice or words of wisdom. I just wanted to let you know that I know a guy that knows a guy.
Hi Blu, I'm sorry to read your post today and here are my thoughts - along with a big hug for you ((((Blu))))
Piecing is really tough - everyone says it - and if it isn't tough, there's probably some rug sweeping going on...
I would be as authentic as you can with your H. You really appreciate the effort and commitment he shows - I know you have posted that here.
Also, you are struggling to get beyond all that has happened. That isn't surprising. Because infidelity is truly a trauma that undercuts those things we held most dear and thought were secure.
I recall a highly respected poster - I think Underdog - posting about a set of CDs on forgiveness that were a real life changer for her. I'll see if I can find that and post if for you..
Also, I agree with what is posted above. I think his behaviour is his to own and he needs to invest in helping you (and himself) heal from these events. Your own feelings about what has happened and towards him are yours to own, process and work through.
Have you guys considered Retrouvaille as an alternative to MC?
And finally, you have come a long way (whilst things feel rough right now) - why not work on the basis of - nothing needs to be decided today - I need to think about that - and just give yourself a little time to work things through..
Xx
Here's a link to the post my lovely:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2711276&page=1I can also recall a book by Jean Safer being mentioned...not one I know though..
And the other thought is Dear Peggy on forgiveness.
I recall reading something she wrote. It went along the lines of - either way forgiveness needs to come. You may heal together and forgive. You may heal alone and forgive. But either way it will come...
Xx
Sending you hugs Blu. (((Blu)))
Thank you for taking the time to read and post, everyone. And to all of you invisible readers--I was where you are just a few short years ago. I think if I had started posting when I was a LBS, it could have really helped me. ... I want to address all of you individually.
25, you have given me a lot to think about. Partly, I like the blue print, as it is easy to read your replies:-) ... I soon realized I had a typo, and what I meant to ask is if you were happier before BD not DB. I agree that DB is a life approach and I think there are tools we can use in all of our Rs.
The reason I asked if you were happier now is because I have read/heard that if your M can recover from an A, it can be stronger. I can't seem to get there, but I do agree that I have work to do on the forgiveness process. Plus, even if the M doesn't survive, I don't want to be a scorned woman. I want to genuinely forgive him.
What have I done to help let go of chit/replaying?
I went to IC and we went to MC for a year
Read/posted here
Read books on forgiveness
Learned to "thought stop"
Talked to friends about it
I freely allow sadness and happiness in my life
Focus more on Rs and GAL that are postive
Try to understand how it happened and make sense of it
Try to appreciate his changes and good qualities
Let go of control of sitches & others, including him
It doesn't seem to matter. It always resurfaces. It often doesn't evoke emotions but I can't quite move passed it.
Even if we spend time together and go on dates, feelings of closeness are short lived. I have always been the more type A and initiator in the M. So when you remove that from the equation, he seems sheepish. I am finding this less attractive. I have called him out on it and he says that he is afraid to get close to me as he knows he will keep getting hurt.
The triggers that make me wish he never came back are just the overall feelings of hopelessness. That I know now that I'll be okay without him. I didn't know that before, I was too wounded. I do wonder if I just wanted to win him back and he has asked me that all along. I don't know. What I really want is to feel the way I did about him for all those years. I adored and trusted this man for so long.
I can list so many reasons to make this work. I can't even think of many to leave, but the A alone feels like more than enough. It's just always sitting there.
Blu
JujuB, really good questions.
I know I sound like a WAS and I do think I am closer to that than to a LBS, however I know better than that. Even if I wanted to pick up and leave (or kick him out), I wouldn't do that. He is my H and he is my family. We owe it to family to try and understand, tolerate and forgive. I want to do what is best for everyone in this sitch, especially the kids. That year we were separated was hard on everyone. Plus, I'm a smart gal, and I know the grass isn't greener.
What would my advise be to H pre-BD to make the M work? Gah! That's a hard question because when I think back to pre-A, even though life was hard, we were still so close! Was I a fool? Starting to wonder.
But what would I tell him? (And what should I tell myself)
M is hard and it will always change. We have to have patience with one another and with ourselves. Sometimes space is healthy and good. Don't do things that you will regret, need to hide, or that you cannot feel proud of. Being right isn't better than understanding. Go easy on yourself and let things go. Do and treat others as you want to be treated. In time, everything will work out if you believe in yourself.
That was hard!
Blu
JR, I am thinking about it. I guess I just don't feel up to it--it's painful and exhausting. And expensive. The MC also had told us that I need to come to terms with this and there was only so much he could do to help with that. She also said that not everyone can. He thinks going is the only way this can work.
C-nut, hello buddy, long time no see. You may be right that H feels like I am punishing him. I dont mean to, I just feel detached, but I can understand that point of view. I don't worry about him walking away. He needs to do what he needs to do and I will be fine in this life with or without him. So I don't even worry about that.
In terms of us taking a break, well that would be a good start if we decide to go our own ways. It's complicated tho and we would need to sell the house first. We live in a very expensive part of the country and I don't think either of us could stay here on one income. We have a very nice house in one of the best neighborhoods. I love my home. I also don't want to hurt the kids again--they are all doing so much better with our family as one unit. I wish I could take a 2 week vacay! Lol. I have been taking a few days here and there, but that is not possible.
In my sitch, I really don't think absence will make the heart grow fonder, I wish it was that easy!
Even tho H has been back for 2 years, I would not say we are actively piecing. I think right now we are prioritizing what needs to be done and just finding our own way.
Blu
Doodler, do you have a photo of said guy? Just in case. Well, you know.
Sotto, thank you for those kind words. I very much appreciate your support and the sentiment. I will def read more about this! I would also like to know more about Retrouvaille, especially how it was for someone that is not catholic.
(((Coly))) Hugs right back!
Blu
BluWave -- understood on the MC. I went twice with my W before I realized she was faking it and had no interest in R. So, different dynamic, but I saw some promise in it had both of us been motivated to try really hard. It was going to take a lot of visits, though, so expense is a very real consideration, too.
As I read your posts, it almost seems like your H really needs to DB, GAL and drop the rope a bit. The script has been almost completely flipped. As your standard LBH, I never really stopped to think about what it would have been like had I ever gotten to piecing; it seems incredibly difficult. Hang in there!
Blu,
I haven't read through all your threads, but my heart started aching for you ... and for me ... as I read your most recent updates on this one.
H and I are three years into piecing, and I *still* grieve what "was." Like, our favorite movie has always been The Notebook ... since before the *first* A. Now, I get so angry when I flip through the TV and see it's on.
I still grieve. HARD. But it's like you said: some days/weeks/months are better than others. And then - WHAM! - something takes me back. "Triggers" most times.
Quite a bit of what 25 wrote a few posts back stood out to me, especially the parts where she, too, said that - no - she isn't "happier" now.
Let me add this as food for thought: what we're grieving may FEEL like the loss of what we remember as a good, solid, healthy relationship. But clearly it wasn't healthy. It wasn't "good." At least not for our spouses. And *that* is where we can start *our* inner work. We are grieving, as Wonka often points out, the innocence our Rs once had ... and not necessarily the Rs themselves.
Also, fwiw, my H and I, once we entered piecing, made a habit of going out every Saturday. Three years later, we still go out at least every other weekend. Though I've cried through some of those dates, my H has created new memories for me through them: memories of his new-found patience and tenderness, love and understanding. Every time I melt down and he stands there and tells me it's okay, and that he will give me as much space ... or as many reassurances ... as I need, he continues earning and building my trust.
We will still hurt, but we have to keep our eyes open for those steps they're taking. Otherwise, it's too easy to allow the hurt and pain to cause us to overlook baby steps (or even gigantic ones) they're making.
Find the place where you can start with him - somewhere where there's a glimmer of happiness and hope. And then work from there. You might have to stay in one place for a while. That's fine. Have patience with yourself. This process is as much about taking care of you as it is taking care of your M.
(And PS many people - including me - have found themselves right back here after the first BD/A because they/we *didn't* take our time in piecing. We moved too quickly through the motions. So take your time and take heart, okay? )
I wish I had better words of experience and wisdom. But just know, at the very least, that you are absolutely not alone in your feelings. Every day that you make a choice to wake up and try again is a day that you might be closer to finding a NEW normal and a REAL kind of happiness. Even if you *always* grieve what you once thought you had.
Stay strong.
Thanks, JR. I have kept this place to myself, but you are right, it could help him. He's not very good in the GAL department; he mostly just works, spends time with our kids, drives them to their activities, and occasionally sees friends/famiky or grabs a beer. When he does DB and follow Sandi's rules (by his own nature) it makes it VERY hard to walk away. He's present, he's kind, he's responsible, hes extremely patient, he's a great dad, and he's flexible and generous (because I love my free time)---and so I know I would be a fool to walk away. I understand the strategy, but it still works on me! Lol.
Train! I remember you! I'm so glad you're here! Thank you!
My BD was Summer 2014 and I started reading here often: I remember all of you (25, TO, Starsky, Sandi, Wonka, V, etc) and it's so nice to still read your posts! There were so many sleepless nights and days of paralysis, and the only thing I could do was open my iPad and read along. It helped me not feel alone and I took so many nuggets away from it. Honestly, if I hadn't had this site, I don't know that I could have stuck this out for so long.
Thank you for telling me I'm not alone. There are not many posters in piecing and so the LBS look to us for direction. I often feel I should be more appreciative that he is back and working so hard. But I keep moving 3 steps forward and 2 steps back. I have a big wall up. A fierce wall with a lioness at the gate.
I think it's time I roll up my sleeves and tackle this chit a litttle harder. You are correct, this would not have happened if we were both happy. I think I was in a place where my "in love feelings" some how washed over what was wrong in the M. I wasn't the best partner and still have some changes to make. I had trouble seeing it because we had several hardships pre-BD that we were focused on in our families (death, mental illness, hardships, etc) AND he was king of the Nice Guy club, so i couldn't see him suffering. He didn't complain much, he grit his teeth. And there was OW--pursing, validating, bad mouthing me, and stroking his ego.
I am going to put myself out there and list a few of the things he brought up that were issues for him past and somewhat present:
1. I was controlling, even when he was being accomodating.
2. At times he felt like I talked down to him.
3. I created free time for myself and he wasn't able to do that.
That's a start. I know I need to work on these things.
It's a sunny day and we just took the dogs for a walk at the beach. Gotta run. Be back later. Keep it coming, I'm strong,I can take it!!!
Blu
I think it's time I roll up my sleeves and tackle this chit a litttle harder. Yep. One of the hardest parts about these ordeals is realizing that we contributed to the cracks in the foundations of our Ms, and we DO have to put in the work - and it IS work - to piece it back together. Otherwise, it's dead in the water, even if we are living in the same house and sleeping in the same bed.
And there was OW--pursing, validating, bad mouthing me, and stroking his ego.
1. I was controlling, even when he was being accomodating.
2. At times he felt like I talked down to him.
3. I created free time for myself and he wasn't able to do that. Good list! I think us girls have a lot of that ^^^ in common. At least it seems so, from things I've read over the years. Try letting go a little. My motto, in many circumstances, has become: "Sometimes peace is better than being right." And remember Wonka stressing the importance of being "breezy"? I've carried a lot of that with me into piecing. Sometimes, for us controlling folks, doing nothing is everything we need to do ... a perfect 180.
It's a sunny day and we just took the dogs for a walk at the beach.FUN!
Thanks, Train! I am now thinking that the term piecing does not only mean putting back together, but also doing so in smalll pieces. It's got to be a slow process, one piece at a time. I tend to tackle too much and set myself up for failure.
In DB fashion I am going to keep focusing on me and what I can change. I am excelling in the GAL department; I have lots of new hobbies, activities, volunteer work, friendships, and things I enjoy. I think I am better here than ever before. I am grateful for this and therefore starting to wean off my ADs. I feel happy overall most days. I enjoy my alone time more than ever. I feel stronger and not afraid of losing H anymore because of all this.
As for my 180s, well that is much harder. Here are a few small changes I can make on a daily basis, mostly in my M, but perhaps in all my Rs to an extent.
1. Listen and not interrupt
2. Go along with his ideas even if I think mine are better
3. Tell him when I appreciate something
4. Ask him how I can support him having free time and follow through
5. Initiate affection
6. Not text so much (he hates that)
7. Not disagree or argue in front of the kids
8. Remind myself that being right isn't more important than hearing and understanding others, especially H.
9. Being mindful of the way I talk to others and not to talk at them
10. Letting those little annoyances roll off my back
Ok I think that's more than enough for now!
Blu
All sounds fantastic. And YES! Bravo on this new realization of "piecing." You are spot-on!!!!! Have patience with yourself.
I would also like to know more about Retrouvaille, especially how it was for someone that is not catholic.
Hi Blu,
My W and I attended Retrouvaille after our first recon. It was very helpful and very profound. I am not Catholic.
I highly recommend it whether you are Catholic or not. You and your H will learn to communicate on a different level. It is also helpful to go in there with an open heart. You will be doing some serious work and digging into some deep emotions.
It was the husband of the hosting couple that helped me get over some of the challenges you are experiencing after our second recon. Talk about getting a 2x4.
I think you will find it to be helpful.
Thank you, Train, do you have a link to your previous threads?
LITB, that is great to hear! Maybe I should give this a go. Did you attend in SF? Your location is listed as SF. I am wondering what the differences are and if some locations are better than others. Would love to read more about it or read your threads too.
This is super helpful everyone. Thank you all for reading and posting.
I am going to try and do this piecing in smaller pieces and see how it works. I appreciate all the feedback, ideas, and advice. I am all about the tough love too. So don't hold back, even if you're not in my shoes.
Blu
Thanks, Train! I am now thinking that the term piecing does not only mean putting back together, but also doing so in smalll pieces. It's got to be a slow process, one piece at a time. I tend to tackle too much and set myself up for failure.
In DB fashion I am going to keep focusing on me and what I can change. I am excelling in the GAL department; I have lots of new hobbies, activities, volunteer work, friendships, and things I enjoy. I think I am better here than ever before. I am grateful for this and therefore starting to wean off my ADs. I feel happy overall most days. I enjoy my alone time more than ever. I feel stronger and not afraid of losing H anymore because of all this.
As for my 180s, well that is much harder. Here are a few small changes I can make on a daily basis, mostly in my M, but perhaps in all my Rs to an extent.
1. Listen and not interrupt
2. Go along with his ideas even if I think mine are better
3. Tell him when I appreciate something
4. Ask him how I can support him having free time and follow through
5. Initiate affection
6. Not text so much (he hates that)
7. Not disagree or argue in front of the kids
8. Remind myself that being right isn't more important than hearing and understanding others, especially H.
9. Being mindful of the way I talk to others and not to talk at them
10. Letting those little annoyances roll off my back
Ok I think that's more than enough for now!
Blu
Blu,
Working on validating will cover most of these, it forces you to listen so you can understand and repeat what they are saying (can't text when doing that), but I think you also need to find that place where you want to hear what he has to say. I think that is part of the respect and admiration that a man needs, we need to feel that our W is looking to us to make decisions and guide the family unit.
I know you've said that your husband has put in a lot of work to end the nice guy syndrome, but he needs to put that in action when he wants free time. They are your kids too, and if he can't take them somewhere because he needs to do something else, he needs to tell you that or cancel the kids plans. He needs to put himself first sometimes.
We attended the Oakland chapter, because the timing worked better for us at the time. The one in SF would have been more convenient, because we live on the Peninsula and that one takes place in Millbrae.
Anyhow, they are all designed to use the same dialogue technique. It consist of a weekend, followed with 6-8 post sessions. It's been awhile, so I don't exactly remember the number of post sessions. The post sessions are essentially a dedicated day to continue what was started over the weekend. Ours were every other Saturday.
My description is rather vague, but it was beyond worthwhile.
Blu
I lack the time for a proper reply. I just wanted to echo that Retrovaille was the single best thing we did in "piecing". Without it, our recon would not have lasted this long.
And I would not have felt safe.
Another workshop that's aimed at individual's personal growth, is Essential Experience, aka 'EE". (It's in Philadelphia, however.)
It's experiential, not so much lectures. So that means it's helpful in reaching your real feelings, as you don't have time to rehearse or edit your responses. It was like 2 years of therapy in a long weekend. I found it to be the most profound inward search I've ever taken.
Regular weekly counseling gets interrupted after an hour, b/c you have to return to work or pick up the kids, etc. That gets fragmented. So either Retrovaille or EE would give you a jump start on the whole process of making a m work for both. You identify issues and come up with an action plan for resolving them.
H and I did EE in the late 1980's and it really brought us closer. H said EE was "more efficient" than weekly therapy. BTW, I attended EE for childhood baggage I wanted to ditch, and how it affected my work, etc. I did not attend EE for working on my m, then. But afterwards it so dramatically improved our interactions, that H went on his own 6 months later. Then we went together. Very bonding.
Of course like anything, if you don't keep it up, you can and will backslide.
(Oh and with EE, you don't have to go together, if child care is an issue. )
More later...
Hi Blu,
I don't know if you've read any of my posts, but if so, do you have any advice to add to my upcoming first visit with my H? I've gone back and read a lot of your story, and I have so much respect and admiration for where you've been, as well as your current position- especially your honesty about maybe his coming back is not how you thought it would be.
Hi leah, thank you for the complements. I don't feel like I've been handling things so well lately, I guess it's always easier to see other people's sitches more clearly than our own. I would be happy to read your posts.
25, I live so far from Philly, I'm in SF Bay Area, but that EE does sounds great. Would it be worth booking a trip that far just to participate? I have looked into Retrovaille, and there are some in my area. It's just hard because they emphasize the importance of followup appts and I work a lot of weekends. It appears they are mostly offered on the weekends. That and I am not Catholic. In fact my H has some issues from being raised by a strict Catholic mother (guilt issues and Nice Guy baggage). So I do wonder how that program would work.
Lately I've been thinking about how easily I lose motivation and why that might be. Things will be moving along and getting more comfortable and it only takes a small argument or trigger and I find myself withdrawing. It's not even intentional, it just happens. The triggers don't get me or throw me off. I notice them, I acknowledge them, and I carry on. Even 6 mos - 1 year ago they would still cut deep, bring me to tears, or throw off my mood. Now I just feel an emptiness or numbness after them.
So when things come up, I withdraw. When I think about it, it goes back to the A and that I don't want a H that did this. I don't want it in my history and am hard on myself that I haven't accepted it by now. Well, actually I am harder on him. We got in a big talk recently and I keep going there. All the things I loved so much about this man, those feelings of love and attraction, are not there anymore. I don't know if they ever will be. I tell him how I feel and I know it hurts him, pushes him away, and makes him feel guilty. It's the truth tho. I don't want to punish him, I just resent what he did and took away. Even when things were hard, I so loved and adored this man.
25, I am still hoping you will update your sitch soon. I can't I help but wonder how many Ms can recover from this level of betrayal and devastation.
H told me while he was gone that he didn't think I could ever see past this, that he thought he ruined everything, and that I could never forgive him. When I think about all the times he said that, it reminds me that when he made the choice to leave, he did so knowing (thinking) he would never get me back. And he still left. I think in some ways he ended it a long time ago and that I just am waiting to fully accept it.
Blu
Blu,
I am glad you share your story here. Firstly it proves WAS can come back, but more importantly it demonstrates that that happening is not the end of the turmoil of the lbs.
I read along when.you first came here, but have not read enough lately to comment/offer advice. I admire your honesty and bravery to share your feelings.
Best wishes
I agree with Roist and thanks for posting Blu, I always look out for your name and read what you write. It is true that when we are scared and desperate, we'll do pretty much anything to try and save our marital relationship. I recall thinking in the early days - how on earth did this happen and how do I fix it??!
But it can be a case of be careful what you wish for. Because from all that people post, piecing is incredibly difficult and there is a loss either way. You lose what you had before and are integrating the events that happened and the behaviour of your spouse into your new relationship with them.
In many ways, it can be easier (I'm not saying better) to move on and either be happily single, or in time build a new relationship without the need to forgive and overcome these events with your current partner. However, they do need to be forgiven and overcome either way - you heal together or you heal separately.
I do still think it is relatively early days in your reconciliation and there will inevitably be difficult feelings washing around for both of you. Many things to work through. But, your H truly does sound regretful and keen to reconcile, so that very important foundation is in place. Plus you are wisely investing in yourself and your wider life.
All will unfold as it should Blu, and there will be many joys to appreciate along the way and challenges to learn from too...
Xx
Reading some of your posts has been a humbling experience for me so to dive in and write something to you feels a little scandalous, but I am pretty bold and will do it anyway. First, you are amazing and a real inspiration. Second, I literally recall in the first moments I learned that yes my H was lying to me and had a PA with another woman and wanted a divorce that I had two choices. I could accept it and the outcome would be a certainty, or I could reject it and wait to figure out another day, when I was calmer, saner, more rational, whether I actually wanted to be married to this person. That day has not yet come. But, what I do know, is that if he does come back and I let him, and we try to make something work, then we will have to reach the point where you are right now. By definition, I think you are in a wonderful place, in a necessary place, and in a place where you can truly explore your own wants, needs, and desires in a way that is much safer for you than what you have been living through. Given the sagacious nature of your advice to everyone else here, it will be the right decision for you and your family in this moment. Nothing but the sincerest and most humble gratitude for the lessons you have already taught me.
H told me while he was gone that he didn't think I could ever see past this, that he thought he ruined everything, and that I could never forgive him. When I think about all the times he said that, it reminds me that when he made the choice to leave, he did so knowing (thinking) he would never get me back. And he still left. I think in some ways he ended it a long time ago and that I just am waiting to fully accept it.
This is hard BluWave and I feel for you. I wish you peace in dealing with this. Sometimes I feel like they say this to force closure like "won't you just give up so we can both move on". It's not that easy.
Keep in mind, he still left because of his weakness in dealing with your M. It's about his capability to handle the struggles of your M or lack there of to resort to his behavior and choosing to leave and not complete choice of abandoning your M. Does that make sense?
Be well.
You guys are too good to me, really, it's true. I don't even deserve it.
I sit here dishing out advice--advice I could barely take when I was the LBS-- all the while I have a H that is pursuing and apologizing for two years and I can't quite get it straight, can I? Sigh.
roist, thank you. The turmoil doesn't end, however the agony and anxiety of the unknown does. I would never want to be in that dark place again. And I don't think I ever could. I am so much stronger now and more grounded in what I expect from myself and other people. This is the silver lining that I talk about. I wasn't always this way. We become more resilient as we learn to overcome hardships.
Sotto, I always enjoy your posts too. You have a very honest, yet kind, way of approaching people. I think there is so much to gain from that. You are correct--I often think there is something easier about letting go and starting new with someone else. No baggage and newness would be nice! I guess I still believe deep in my heart that I need to do the right thing. I also want what is best for my kids and our family. I do hear stories of people that D, move on to another M, and the same issues resurface. So if I can make this work, it's a win-win for us all.
helies, wow, thank you for that. I really like what you said about making a decision prematurely. So many posters struggle with the "what ifs," yet they will never get their answers. They want to know if they can forgive, if they can take them back, and they feel they need to decide or else. Here is the thing, you can decide on what you don't know. You can crave chocolate cake, but when the dessert menu comes, they may just have banana cream pie. Ok, bad example (cause your probably gonna get chopped liver), but the point is you can't know what you dont know. You can proclaim that you will never take your H back unless .... but until you see, hear, feel who they bring to you, then you can't know that now.
I like that you told me I am in a wonderful and necessary place. It's a good way to think about it. I need to be in this place, and take this time, to know and understand how to proceed. I have always had choices, but now I feel some power in the matter. I had power before, but my broken heart disallowed me to use it.
Tryin, that does make sense. Thank you for that. So much of his decision to leave was his inability to handle things, not a choice in itself to no longer love me. That is something he described all along--from day one--I just couldn't hear it when I was a LBS. All of you will get there in time, with or without your S.
So Retrouvaille is in the cards. It actually looks like this chips could fall into place soon. I find myself not wanting to make a decision. A close friend was opening up recently about her struggles with not being able to have children. She is newly married, has health issues, and it's unlikely she can ever have children of her own. When I told her I didn't know if I wanted to go to Retrouvaille, she told me she has been saying the same thing about having children. Then tears came to her eyes and she said that she does, and she realized recently that when she admits it, and knowing it may. It work, it is all the more painful ....
She was talking about me too. Is she right? A lot to think about...
Blu
Correction: ... when she admits it, and knowing it may not work, it is all the more painful ....
I did it. Enrolled in Retrouvaille. Gulp!!!
I did it. Enrolled in Retrouvaille. Gulp!!!
Great news! Truly -- just give it a chance. Take it in (and as for EE, I flew down from Alaska to do "team" - a way to help other participants)
so yes, I think that's worth it too. But for now, it's Retrovaille time!
So glad.
Blu, congrats on deciding to go. I was told by a close friend that it is a great program. He said that it wouldn't help me and my W at the time because she is not open to it. I'm sure like everything in life...you have to be open to the possibility for things to actually work.
I haven't updated in awhile, and there isn't much new to report. Retrouvaille is coming up in a few weeks, so we will see how that goes. I'm neither looking forward to it or dreading it (as I thought I might), but more thinking I will go into it as openminded as I can. The good thing is I am forcing myself to get off the fence, as I have been waffling around a bit in the last couple years. It's time to roll up my sleeves and do this.
I was inspired by a post from Sandi to TO a couple weeks go and copied some of it over here with my comments, how it relates to my sitch, and then I lost the entire thing. Gaaah! I hate when that happens. My posts dont always come through when I use the iPad. I will take a stab at it again in the near future. Need to have an actual keyboard for that, so I can neatly copy and paste.
H has been having a hard time lately. He desperately wants to go to MC and feels we need to work on things more. We did have a great MC--pricey but well seasoned--however I still want to wait, I think since we have committed to Retrouvaille, I want to see how that goes for now. He has made comments that I share more with others (and online) than I do with him. I don't feel that I do, but I think he is asking for more communication. It's valid. I need to work on being more open and vulnerable with him. Still a bit of a wall there.
Also Hs mother is dying. It's hard; she is a beautiful person and exceptional grandmother. One thing I don't know if I've shared is that when I learned about H and OW (about 3 years ago) it was while my father was dying and I found out about them soon after he passed. It was awful. Talk about being kicked while you are down. It still boggles my mind.
I have noticed a theme on here that waywardness often happens during significant life events--death, loss, pregnancy, newly married, a big move, and purchase of a house, etc. It doesn't seem a coincidence at all. Perhaps those that struggle to cope with change, fear, loss of independence, etc, are turning to others for comfort?
It's so hard to wrap my head around it because when I see someone hurting or going through stress, my natural tenedency is to turn towards them, not away. I just wanted to invite some conversation around that. My H said he felt especially guilty about the A, while my father was dying. Guilt lead him to leave the A several times, but it was ultimately not what ended it.
Just my thoughts this morning.
Happy Easter to those observing it.
Blu
Hey Blu, happy Easter to you too!
I'm sorry to hear about H's Mum. He is very fortunate to have you to support him.
I think it interesting how some people can cope with life changing events and others feel the need to run. Do you think H's need to go to MC is because he has made the connection with his waywardness at the time you lost your Dad?
It's good that he isn't just sitting back and hoping things will get better magically. Sounds like Retrouvaille might just be the ticket....
Hi bluwave
I have had very similar thoughts. My ex started detaching when times became difficult for me with health issues and loss. I remember talking to my mom and making excuses for him when he left. I gave her the list of all the stresses in our lives. She reminded me how those stresses were really my stresses not his.
It's funny, I always thought my ex was the strong and mentally stable one. But I guess one truly discovers who they are, and who others are when times get tough. It's the true test of what we are really made of.
I am mad and feel like I financially lose in my situation, but i wouldn't want to be my ex and I wouldn't want to switch places with him, because I don't like who he is deep down. He showed me. He is disloyal, and weak and empty.
On the other hand, one of the things I try to teach my son is that we all make mistakes in life and it's how we acknowledge and address our mistakes that counts. I think that the only way piecing can work is when the WAS is really remorseful and fully acknowledging and addressing their mistakes.
It must be scary though to forgive and trust again. Especially when reading many of the stories on this board. I have heard that piecing is the most difficult part. I do know there are long term success stories after infidelity and wish you the best.
Would like to hear more thoughts on the topic you brought up.
Personally in my situation, I think my ex was someone that could not handle discomfort. This sounds really silly... but he was the type that would take his car 2 blocks so he wouldn't have to walk to the store, needed constant air conditioning, would pick up a slice of pizza even though we had reservations to a restaurant because he didn't want to be hungry for 30 minutes, drove aggressively to not have to wait. These are all trivial but looking back they say a lot to me. He couldnt handle life or people when it wasn't comfortable or indulging.
Hi Coly, how are you? I have not been very good about posting lately. I don't think H wanting to go to MC is related to anything in particular, other than him wanting to stay on a positive path. Mostly he thinks we don't know how to communicate (listen and understand each other) and he feels we have a lot to work on. Sometimes I don't even know what that means. How do you even "work" on a relationship? It's almost so simple it's complicated!
JujuB, you bring up some great points. I agree that sometimes what makes a person seem "strong" is actually avoidance and an inability to accept or handle hardships in life. I am no psychologist, but I imagine that stems from a person's childhood, trauma, and not feeling safe or allowed to feel/express their emotions. I can see how this could have been the case in H's family. He was raised to be "a good boy" and to be kind and respectful of women. There was a lot of shame around anything that was traditionally masculine. He learned at a young age to stuff his feelings and make other people happy.
Thank you for what you said. I want to believe that this can work and like you, I have heard that there are many success stories. I just don't know people personally that have dealt with it to this extreme. I don't know if I am afraid to trust him and in a strange way, I do. I trust him in the sense that he would not repeat an A or even leave me. What I don't trust is that I will ever feel as close to him as I did before and that makes me sad. I miss the intimacy that we shared.
On the flip side, maybe I don't need to feel that way. With my strong attachment, also came codependency, insecurity, and some loss of self. We were too interconnected, and it was as if I needed him to really feel happy. I can honestly say I don't need him or any man to feel happy anymore. I find more joy in my other Rs and in being alone than I used to. I could to do the same things, but without this level of independence and confidence. So as hard as things have been in the last few years, I can see a lot of positive that has come from it.
One thing that helps me move forward is finding the silver linings in this crazy sitch and believing that it happened for a reason. You know, I just realized that I started posting here 1 year ago today. So much has changed since then. I think we all need to remember to stop for a moment and give ourselves credit from time to time. Things do and will always change. We have to remind ourselves it will get better.
- 4 years ago, life started getting unmanageable in our family and M. Several hardships and challenges.
- 3 years ago was right before BD. Everything blew up and my life was crumbling rapidly. I found this site and reading here--it was a life savor. I could barely eat, sleep, function, etc, and I was the worst DBer in history :-)
- 2 years ago something changed--I finally let go of H, he left OW--and H did a rather quick turn around and we started piecing soon thereafter.
- 1 year ago I made a username and started posting. I still struggled to move forward in a straight line and doubts haunted me often.
Today I feel much more hopeful and at peace with where things stand. I feel that this M can work and be something better one day. I also know that I will be okay if we don't stay together. Life takes unexpected turns.
Who knows what tomorrow will bring.
Blu
As Retrouvaille gets closer, I find myself questioning everything, even asking myself if I should go. I don't know why or what at the moment. I'm not afraid of it. I'm not even angry right now. I barely feel sadness and when I do it passes. I just feel sort of empty, like nothing. Sometimes I even miss the hurt and anger because it's safe. It's powerful. This is unknown and uncomfortable. Maybe I'm defeated and it's time to surrender. I don't know...
As Retrouvaille gets closer, I find myself questioning everything, even asking myself if I should go. I don't know why or what at the moment. I'm not afraid of it. I'm not even angry right now. I barely feel sadness and when I do it passes. I just feel sort of empty, like nothing. Sometimes I even miss the hurt and anger because it's safe. It's powerful. This is unknown and uncomfortable. Maybe I'm defeated and it's time to surrender. I don't know...
Blu,
Go to Retrouvaille with an open heart to see what shakes out from the weekend. You will explore areas of emotion that are profound. I think you will find it to put things in a different perspective for you. At the very least, you can say that you turned that stone.
Wishing you all the best.
Thank you, LITB. I appreciate it. Just numb at the moment. Not even sure why.
Blu,
This is so utterly profound "Sometimes I even miss the hurt and anger because it's safe. It's powerful. This is unknown and uncomfortable."
Remember Gertrude Stein's words, "“Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain.”
Yes, pain is real and visceral and understandable. Numbness and nothingness are just a void. What can you do to transform that void into something real?
Thank you, LITB. I appreciate it. Just numb at the moment. Not even sure why.
I think its protective b/c you fear opening a can of worms and having to go dig up the stuff you hoped was buried and rotting away somewhere into nothingness. You are guarding and girding yourself...
I'm on my way to a divorce related "crap" event in CA, and I'm weirdly calm, b/c frankly, it helps me to not backslide from my detachment. I think it's protective.
Retrovaille was a surprise to me in that it was subtle, semi private, and yet very helpful.
Go with an open mind and don't fret about your protective mode coming on, as long as you are able, at some point, to let yourself look at whatever needs looking at.
Especially stuff that you were able to avoid looking at in you, since the A took so much head/heart space.
I'm not thinking of anything particular about you personally, Blu, I hope you know.
I'm just saying it happens often here, with an LBSer coming here b/c their spouse wants out, and they begin taking inventory of their marital flaws when they discover an A and suddenly it's ALL about the A
and well, you know the rest...
I say Trust the Process. We are all rooting for you.
((( )))
Thank you, LITB. I appreciate it. Just numb at the moment. Not even sure why.
Blu...when you said you were "numb at the moment". A Ted Talk immediately came to mind. To you, 25 and anyone else reading this, I highly suggest watching the Ted Talk by Brene Brown ~ The Power of Vulnerability if you have not seen it. I think it is incredibly insightful.
OwnIt, yes, I love that quote. It's true that not feeling anything (or understanding a feeling) is frightening. I have always been the type of person that thinks, and overthinks, about what I am feeling and why. Maybe that is why I have had depression in my life. Maybe that is why I have been drawn to substances that numb my pain. Not knowing what I feel and the void, are different, and unsettling.
What can I do to transform the void into something real? Well for the last few years I have fallen into this victim mentality--where H is the perpetrator and I am the wounded one. It's this pattern that has been hard to break. If I want to move forward in the M, then I need to break the cycle. I have to start seeing him as an equal and working on underlying issues, not just see the A and blame him for the A. It is the false sense of power that actually holds me back.
25, thank you, that means a lot to me. It is also true. The A has overshadowed so much else that needs to be looked at and changed. I know I have a lot of things I need to own and work on. I think I have felt self righteous and justified in my bad behaviors because of my hurt and anger around the A. I am going to go into the weekend open minded and trust the process.
I think Tx's thread took the wind out of my sail. He continues to describe his M and his W as forever tainted. That is my biggest fear. My H has been back 2 years and I still see him that way. I don't want to live that way. I get that everyone makes mistakes, I understand how it happened, and I want to forgive him. It just still hasn't felt like enough. My biggest fear is what he describes exactly.
Thank you for the support. It means a lot. I really do get so much from this site and the posters here. Sometimes I feel a bit guilty that I don't appreciate my H more.
LITB, I will def watch that TED talk. I have yet to see one that I don't like. Vulnerability is where I am stuck right now. It means taking off my shield. It means getting out of being the victim and not only seeing the A and him as the bad guy. It means forgiving, trusting, and falling in love with H again. ...
And all of that leads to being vulnerable to getting hurt again.
Blu
Blu, I haven't read up on your thread lately so I'm not sure which TED talk you are referring to about vulnerability.... but if it's the one that helped me SO MUCH, it's Brene Brown. She has a few books out too, but she came along in my life about 4 years before my trouble started, and thank the Lord she did. It laid the foundation that I had no idea I would need. I thought I was going to hear her speak to help my daughter. Life is irony, right. Sending you hugs and love.
Blu, I saw Tx's thread on the taint as well. Now keep in mind my H has not come back, has not asked to come back, and likely never will. Nevertheless, I have thought about this a lot in the last few days. He was a virgin when we met (at 20-21). He had never even dated anyone. I remember telling him at the time he was in such a rush to marry (7 months from the date we met) that he needed to experience other people. He talked me into it sadly. At first I saw him as very tainted. I know for a fact he is whoring it up out there. But then I thought about my own crimes (gaining weight, not taking care of my appearance, being controlling, not supporting him, being embarrassed of him at times, carrying anger, not communicating, and ignoring the problems I knew were there). At that point I thought, what right do I have to pass judgment on him. When did I become perfect? When did I figure it all out? When have I had to deal with a debilitating mental illness (for that is what it seems). What are any of us but a bunch of scars and holes and burns and bandaids? If he ever comes back I have to deal with the person he is right then and there. Is that a person I want in my life. If he is, I have to accept him and his scars and his taint and my own. I know I'm forgiving enough to overlook all of that if the actions going forward are something I can live with. Please don't hold your H to a standard of perfection that none of us can meet. Judge him only by his actions today.
Blu,
I wanted to say a few things to you regarding where you are now and what you have been feeling for the past 2 years.
My current WW had an affair about 5 years ago. When I found out, I confronted her on the spot. I told her everything that I knew. She denied it for a few minutes, but she finally broke down. She begged and pleaded with me, but I left her that night. I already had my bags packed before I confronted her. In the following days, she called, emailed, begged and pleaded and I wasn't having it. I finally did come back home and we began a journey that I can only describe as a walk directly through hell and back.
During those 5 years, I was bitter, resentful and angry all the time. We had our moments here and there, but I punished her every chance I got. She took it all. She was as sorry and as remorseful as any former WW could be. I didn't care. She was "tainted". Our marriage had lost it's innocence and I felt that we could never get it back.
In the first few years I was a lot more vocal. I would call her names when I got mad and extracted many, many pounds of flesh on a daily basis. As the years went on, we were not so vocal about it, but the A had changed how I saw her and what her worth was to me. There were times she would ask me simple things, like "do you think you could take out the trash?" and in my mind, I would think "why don't you take it out yourself, you whore". I don't feel good about admitting these things, but they are true. I bet anyone on this board that is or has been though piecing has had the same thoughts.
I think the reason that I became so bitter and angry is because I loved her so much. I could not fathom my beautiful bride doing such unspeakable things with another man and then calmly come home and crawl into bed with me. I was never able to wrap my head around the fact that my wife could live that kind of double-life. I didn't understand how she was capable. I mean, we all see it on TV, in the movies and maybe even in real life with people we know. But every time we hear a story like that, we just roll our eyes and can't imagine what horrible people they are. Then one day, that horrible, awful person is our own spouse. They are just as gross and despicable as some whore on a daytime soap opera. It is a jagged pill to try and swallow.
Eventually, after so many years, she gave up. She had been punished enough and didn't want to be defined by the worst thing she had ever done. She had tried and tried for so many years and I simply didn't know how to forgive or heal properly. So she asked for a separation and I agreed. What I didn't know at the time was that she had OM all lined up and went straight into his arms the second we separated, but that story is for it's own thread entirely.
After many months of this separation, I have come to realize that there are so many things that I could have done differently over the last 5 years. I just didn't have the tools. I didn't know how to forgive. I didn't know how to accept her sorrow. I didn't know how to see her for who she was. I didn't know how to define her as anything other than the worst thing she had ever done.
After much soul searching and introspection, I can tell you what it all boiled down to for me and maybe this will resonate with you and anyone else:
I felt like if I forgave her, it meant that she got away with it. It meant that she was able to have an affair, have sex with another person and she still got to keep her husband and family. I could not ever accept that and it killed any chance that we had at reconciling.
I urge you to to find a deeper understanding of unconditional love and forgiveness. I wish I had so many years ago. I love my wife with every ounce of my being and she is gone now. I know you love your husband, so please try to truly forgive him. He is back and he is trying the best way he knows how. Give him the benefit of the doubt and try to not define him by the worst thing that he has ever done.
True love keeps no record of wrongs. Throw away the scorecard and begin again.
Matrix
This is unbelievably sad, beautiful and poignant. Thank you for sharing.
I agree with you whole heartedly. After WH's first two EAs I said I forgave him. I thought I forgave him. But I kept bringing it up. Later on his mother told me that he believed I would never let go, our lives would always be stained. I didn't realise he felt that way because everytime I brought up 'the girls', he always said he would always apologise, forever, and I was always within my rights to bring them up because this was the price he had to pay. I guess he got sick of paying.
Blu - I read this somewhere once, which made an impression on me, albeit too late for my sitch. To forgive means to literally, give as you did before. I think that means giving love like you did before.
Blu - when you have a min, could you have a look at my thread?
Wow, Matrix, beautifully and honestly worded. I've just copied and pasted your post to my ongoing document entitled "Thing I have learned in this heartbreak..."
I didn't mean to hijack Blu's thread at all, but I am glad that my post resonated with you two. I hope that Blu can realize that what she is feeling is totally normal. I just wanted to offer some perspective from someone who has been there. I don't want anyone to make the same mistakes that I made. True forgiveness is possible and you can still have a better marriage then you ever had before.
I was also hoping that TxHubby would read this post as well. It sounds like he has already made his mind up, but I wanted to offer my story anyway...just in case.
Blu,
Anxiously awaiting to hear how your weekend went. Hoping that it was the beginning to a great and beautiful shift in your M/R.
Hi everyone!
Whenever I fall off the wagon (and don't read/post for several days), it's hard to pick back up without a large chunk of time. Please don't apologize for hijacking my thread! Any and all conversations are welcome. I learn so much from all of you, your perspectives, and just reading your stories.
I will come back when I have more time and can address you each personally (because I think that's important), however I only have a couple minutes right now. It is also dawning on me that I may not be doing a good job protecting my anonymity. I have shared so much about myself and I know there are a lot of readers that don't post. I am not sure what the harm in that is though. Maybe I am naive, I don't know.
So we attended Retrouvaille last weekend. I am still digesting the experience to be honest. I also think it's important not to share too much about it, because for anyone reading that ends up going in the future, I don't want to take away from your experience. So I think it's safer to only share my impressions.
- I very much appreciate the program and the way it is designed.
- The more I think about the presentations and the material, the more I can see how it makes sense and works.
- I also have a renewed respect for the Catholic church and their commitment to marriage and family.
- I have learned a lot of valuable tools that I fully intend on using in my daily life.
- I can see how this is a process and it is up to ME to take responsibility for ME and MY part in changing to make this marriage work.
- I feel fortunate that my H is committed to doing anything for me, our M, and our family.
- This feels like the start of something new that will lead me on the right path towards a better reconciliation.
- I am definitely a believer that if two people both want to stay married, attend this program, and both actually do the work, that any M can be saved. But it really does take both people.
- I have an enormous amount of respect for the couples that reconciled their Ms and shared their stories.
- I can say more confidently now that I want the same thing.
Have to run back to work. I'll be back later :-)
Feeling More Hopeful,
Blu
Leahsue, yes, he is referring to Brene Brown. I'll watch it again today, as I had been at work and didn't finish it. I'll stop by your thread soon too :-)
Ownit, thank you for sharing your story. I need to check out your thread too. You wrote this, "Please don't hold your H to a standard of perfection that none of us can meet. Judge him only by his actions today." I will think about that even more and take it to heart. I feel that I am now getting to a place where I can do that.
Matrix, THIS here really resonated with me:
"I felt like if I forgave her, it meant that she got away with it. It meant that she was able to have an affair, have sex with another person and she still got to keep her husband and family. I could not ever accept that and it killed any chance that we had at reconciling.
I urge you to to find a deeper understanding of unconditional love and forgiveness. I wish I had so many years ago. I love my wife with every ounce of my being and she is gone now. I know you love your husband, so please try to truly forgive him. He is back and he is trying the best way he knows how. Give him the benefit of the doubt and try to not define him by the worst thing that he has ever done."
Thank you so much for sharing this. It means so much to me. As much as I have harbored this resentment, I also know that it isn't right and cannot continue. The hurt and anger only holds me back. I am learning to free myself of it and forgive--not for him, but for me--with the hope that the consequence is something much greater in life. This has become a spiritual journey for me.
Matrix, Can you link your last threads for me?
2016, I got you girl (wink, wink).
Blu
Hi Blu,
your dedication to your M is inspiring,
<<<Insert effective words of encouragement here>>>
C-nut
Blu,
This is so utterly profound "Sometimes I even miss the hurt and anger because it's safe. It's powerful. This is unknown and uncomfortable."
Remember Gertrude Stein's words, "“Given the choice between the experience of pain and nothing, I would choose pain.”
Yes, pain is real and visceral and understandable. Numbness and nothingness are just a void. What can you do to transform that void into something real?
I am reading this thread over. Not sure how I missed this^^^ but I'm sitting with it.
Good reflective thread.
Here's a weird thought and no hijack intended...
when the part of me that admits I STILL want things to work out, the other parts of me, which is almost all of the cognitive parts (i.e. my head)
I feel disgusted with myself. Very shocked the "real 25" would put up with any of it and not just give the finger and run, never turning back.
I think it's like those gamblers who have lost a bunch of money and yet still play a high risk game instead of walking away...
they must think they can somehow make up for the money they already lost, by making it ALL back....
but in reality they just keep playing the same game - with very low odds of winning.
But walking away without hope of getting their money back, means way way too much has been lost forever.
Something to discuss in T and work on.
Blu,
My only real thread on here was when I first joined and I was asking the group if I should confront my WW about her PA. I got a lot of different opinions and decided to wait it out because I was not in a position emotionally to confront her.
I never really had a thread detailing my sitch or my day-to-day journey. I mostly read and comment on other people's threads.
My story is very, very long and would take pages and pages to tell. I find most of the help for me here through other stories that I can relate with.
I just wanted to share what I posted with you, because I have been there. I was so full of anger and resentment, that my W eventually wore down. She did everything in her power to save us after her A and I just didn't know how to heal. I buried my head and hid in a dark place for many years. The sad thing now is that I know how to heal and forgive. I have learned so much here and from reading so many other books. It is like a light went off and I now see how I could have saved my M and now she seems to be very far gone. My sitch has improved somewhat in the last few months, but still nothing to report as a possible starting point of any kind of R.
Anyway, I am happy that some of my words resonated with you and I really want you to understand that remorseful, former WAS will eventually wear down and simply won't be able to live with being punished for the rest of their life. They will eventually forgive themselves and will not continue to wait around for you to forgive them as well.
Some advice that I would like to offer and have you try is this:
Every time you get angry or feel resentment start to build or stare at him across the room and want to tear his eyeballs out or start to trigger about the OW, I would like you to try and "love" him through it. Go over to him, wrap your arms around him and tell him that you love him and that you are glad he is your husband. Even if you might be seething mad inside, just make yourself do something loving for him right in that moment. Try this for a few weeks or even a month and see how you feel then. Creating these loving habits can sometimes lead to new and real feelings and those new feelings can get you to a new place of real love and real forgiveness.
Take care.
Blu
Just read the part about Retrovaille. I'm so glad you got a lot out of it.
keep us posted!
Fortune favors the brave---
Blu,
Thank you for posting your impressions of Retrouville. I have been super curious about it but I know my WH would never agree in a million years. I see a lot of parallels in our way of viewing the world, I think we would be besties in real life or frenemies, lol!
Hi Blu,
How did you deal with time apart from you H, my W left me for OM for 5 weeks and I just can't seem to move on from that? I can't stop thinking about it and asking questions about what they did in that time. It's just haunts me every waking moment.
How did you and your husband cope with this?
Thanks
Jon
C-nut, thank you. I think your courage and growth are inspiring. We started posting at around the same time and I feel a connection to you. I still smile when I think of your first threads and how hard we hit you with 2*4s. lol. You took them better than anyone :-)
25, please DO hijack my thread! I have learned so much from you over the years. I recall summer 3 years ago, after H left me for OW. I was on vacation with my children in this beautiful, near perfect, place; sunny and gorgeous day, crystal blue waters, happy kids, etc, etc. There I sat, emaciated from weight loss, restless and anxious from racing thoughts and months of sleepless nights, and as I have said before, I was a shell of a person. My go-to safety net, where I didn't feel entirely lost, were these forums. If you posted it, I made sure to read it. You didn't know, but you got me through some very dark times.
It is because of the vets like you that I am here posting now. I just know that there are 100s or 1000s of readers out there just like us. If anything I share brings them comfort too, then it is all worthwhile. .... Okay, I am way off track now :-)
I watched the Ted talk yesterday and I really enjoyed it. She talked about the importance of vulnerability and that it is necessary (risk) in order to have joy in life. What stuck with me the most is that she talked about our addictive culture and how we numb pain. She said that you cannot only numb pain, but you are also numbing the other emotions, including joy. That made me think. Hard. I have spent a lot of time numbing myself and perhaps that is why I have been so stuck.
I can relate to your example of gambling. I think our vulnerabilities are the chips we have to put on the table if we want to win any prize. When someone has broken our trust or heart, it is that much harder to put the chips down. So now we have to put down all of our chips, and so we have that much more to lose also.
Over the last several years there has been an ongoing match of head verses heart. Rational mind verses emotions. Decisions verses feelings. Really there isn't one winner is there?
For me, what I am learning on this journey is that my heart, feelings, and emotions are constantly changing. Like your blood flowing and your BP, it is never stagnant, and if it is, it will clot off and then the entire system (body) is at risk. When you go into your doc's office and get a BP reading, it does not have much meaning. It is one snap shot in time. If you took 10 readings in a row, they would all be different. That is how I think of our emotions.
My head, rational mind, and my decisions are something that have changed too. However they are not bouncing up and down and all over the place. They are evolving and improving over time. As I grow and learn, I can mold and refine them to suit my needs. They are within my control. I choose to control them and let them win more of the battles. Therefore I trust my decisions over my emotions. Ultimately, it is because of this that my M will survive.
Blu
Blu
Matrix, thank you. Your position and advice are invaluable to me. I truly want to move forward in this life with my H. I want to wholeheartedly understand him and forgive him (and more so, I want to understand and forgive myself). This is for many, many reasons. It is not just because it is the right thing to do, because it's better for my kids, our finances, and because of the connection we had before. It is a spiritual journey of sorts for us both. We both want to fully look within ourselves, and each other, and be willing to change for the better. I think if we both can do that, I believe that our relationship can be better than before.
I appreciate what you say about looking at him across the room and reaching out to him. We both need to relearn affectionate habits with one another. I can say though that enough time has passed, and work has been done, that I don't have strong triggers regarding OW. She, and his R with her, have little to no meaning anymore. As we have dissected our sitch, and continue to understand one another, we have learned that she was a symptom. Neither of us have any respect or put any value on her or our Rs that we had with her. In many ways I pity her, as I think she has very little authenticity in her life.
These are things that have just taken time. I am sorry that you are in the position that you are in and have regrets. That must be difficult. I hope you will continue to post. Everyone here, myself included, can learn a lot from you!
Blueboy, if you read through my threads, you can see that it has been a HUGE struggle for me. The hardest part of my sitch has been understanding and forgiving the betrayal of the OW. It has taken a long time--H has been back for 2 years now and I am starting to feel that I am getting there. We each went to IC and then we also went to MC together for a year. We have read books and tried to gain deeper understanding ourselves and each other. Part of it has also been allowing myself to feel all that I need to in order to move through the process--anger, rage, sadness, devastation, fear, anxiety, etc, etc. You name it, I have felt it.
Part of my healing has been turning to him and seeing his remorse, hearing his apologies, and feeling his ongoing commitment to us over time. I think that only took us so far though. We are in a place now, where we need to do the harder work. That work includes really understanding fundamentally who we are as people, how we feel about who we are, and then having to change the many bad habits that we have developed over the last several years. Many--from negative thinking, to eye rolling, to no affection, etc, AND in front of our kids. For years. I think the tools we have gotten from Retrouvaille are enormously helpful. I truly believe it takes a willingness from both people to do this work. I hope you and your W are both willing to make it work.
Blu
C-nut, thank you. I think your courage and growth are inspiring. We started posting at around the same time and I feel a connection to you. I still smile when I think of your first threads and how hard we hit you with 2*4s. lol. You took them better than anyone :-)
25, please DO hijack my thread! I have learned so much from you over the years. I recall summer 3 years ago, after H left me for OW. I was on vacation with my children in this beautiful, near perfect, place; sunny and gorgeous day, crystal blue waters, happy kids, etc, etc. There I sat, emaciated from weight loss, restless and anxious from racing thoughts and months of sleepless nights, and as I have said before, I was a shell of a person. My go-to safety net, where I didn't feel entirely lost, were these forums. If you posted it, I made sure to read it. You didn't know, but you got me through some very dark times.
means more to me than you know. REALLY...
It is because of the vets like you that I am here posting now. I just know that there are 100s or 1000s of readers out there just like us. If anything I share brings them comfort too, then it is all worthwhile. .... Okay, I am way off track now :-)
I watched the Ted talk yesterday and I really enjoyed it. She talked about the importance of vulnerability and that it is necessary (risk) in order to have joy in life. What stuck with me the most is that she talked about our addictive culture and how we numb pain. She said that you cannot only numb pain, but you are also numbing the other emotions, including joy. That made me think. Hard. I have spent a lot of time numbing myself and perhaps that is why I have been so stuck.
I've watched and listened to the same TED Talk and greatly benefitted. It prompts a lot of reflection.
I can relate to your example of gambling. I think our vulnerabilities are the chips we have to put on the table if we want to win any prize. When someone has broken our trust or heart, it is that much harder to put the chips down. So now we have to put down all of our chips, and so we have that much more to lose also.
Yes the vulnerabilities are a part of it. In my situation in the past, I wish I had played a different game or hedged bets or whatever...
In my situation since the recon, I also am trying to understand the red flags I ignored - that my kids now bring up.
I want to know someday , Why i kept trying to win it all back,
and I do think it's b/c if I walked away from the table then, then all the money (YEARS and love, loyalty, history, dreams, etc) would be lost forever.
Only when it became clear I'd lose any ability to feel safe again (h was gone, even though I was so sick and he acted weird about money, which I had not noticed before)...
So only when it was blindingly obvious that h was OUT, and only when he practically dared me to file for D WHILE denying he wanted a divorce, did I walk away from the table and file for divorce.
(Gaslight behaviors continue but there is no one left to gaslight.)
In your situation, your h is now asking you to play again, but he seems to be putting all his cards on the table. And he's been at the table with an open hand, awhile now, right?
Okay, okay, maybe I'm carrying the metaphor too far...
Over the last several years there has been an ongoing match of head verses heart. Rational mind verses emotions. Decisions verses feelings. Really there isn't one winner is there?
Great question. I have said and believed in the past that "where the head goes, the heart will follow...if we let it."
I think I believe it! I did not always practice it. And no, I do not believe we should "always follow the gut".
Sometimes we are incredibly afraid and insecure and bring about the very thing we most fear. Heck, h did that with money. Constantly fearing not having enough is why he kept chasing the almighty dollar and moving, and never building stability enough for ME to establish a legal career or for him to build enough of a practice so he'd leave for the next "sure thing".
Then blaming me for not being where he wanted to be, in life.
But there are times we do have to follow our intuitive side. I guess it's about whether our perceptions have roots in reality. And that's personal inner work we have to do to know what to trust.
Fear and shame are things I want a lot LESS of in my life. Shame leads to secrets and those are not okay with me anymore.
Fear is - fear of what? That we are not good enough to have a loving lasting R?
I mean, what is our deepest fear? I think that's something to really dig in for.
For me, what I am learning on this journey is that my heart, feelings, and emotions are constantly changing. Like your blood flowing and your BP, it is never stagnant, and if it is, it will clot off and then the entire system (body) is at risk. When you go into your doc's office and get a BP reading, it does not have much meaning. It is one snap shot in time. If you took 10 readings in a row, they would all be different. That is how I think of our emotions.
Amen. I can feel a series of emotions and I can feel mixed conflicting ones at once. What are we supposed to "Do" with those? Sort them out I suppose. See what sticks...
My head, rational mind, and my decisions are something that have changed too. However they are not bouncing up and down and all over the place. They are evolving and improving over time. As I grow and learn
, I can mold and refine them to suit my needs. They are within my control.
^^yes, cognitive behavioral therapy is real. And it's mandatory to self awareness or change
OR we'll be letting emotions push us in directions we don't even look at, b/c we are RUNNING from pain...and not thinking things out.
I saw an IC after my mom died, d19 went to college and we moved for h's job, again, all in 6 weeks. This was before I knew H was checking out...again...
We discussed grief. She said that if you stare at grief in front of you, it can paralyze and overwhelm.
If you hide from it, it will find and push you in A direction....
so we have to learn to see it next to us while we move forward, anyhow. It's there, it hurts but it does not prevent or direct our movement.
make sense?
I choose to control them and let them win more of the battles. Therefore I trust my decisions over my emotions. Ultimately, it is because of this that my M will survive.
Blu
Blu
I think your m surviving is fine, but I hope and believe it can do more. (Or not? I don't "know")
Marrying the head and heart takes time and effort. My belief is that in restored m's, the union between our views of the r, and our feelings about it,
will MOSTLY match. Those who seek 100% full agreement are probably going to be disappointed eternally.
You already see that our emotions change and our thoughts evolve.
Maybe just work on getting them on the same page, then the same paragraph and go from there?
(((Sara))) I would so love to sit down and have a long talk with you. I have so much respect for you and what you are doing. Yes, I do think we have similar views. I have not shared much about my family, religion, political views, etc, but I will say that I come from a very diverse background and live in a diverse part of the country. I grew up intimately surrounded by many world faiths and I very much appreciate that now in my life.
My father was raised in a Muslim country, my mother and step-father are/were protestant ministers, my BFF's family are Hindu (they were my second family growing up and still are), many of my friends were/are Jewish, and my in-laws are fundamental Catholics. I have been drawn to the teachings of Buddhism, however I (as of now) do not subscribe to one faith having more significance over another. This has been a blessing (in that I can be open-minded to all beliefs) and a curse (in that I lack the connection and identity that I see others have). Again, I digress ...
Sara, I want good things for you. You are so intelligent, hardworking, loyal, have a solid moral compass, and you have so much introspection and self reflection. You deserve someone that loves and appreciates all of these qualities in you. You are also a fighter and I know you will come out on the other side of this mess even stronger.
Bu
Totally procrastinating on all I need to get done today ...
More impressions of Retrouvaille (one week into this journey):
-There is so much significance of putting your thoughts and feelings down on paper. After you write it, you either acknowledge and take responsibility for it, or you cross it off and rethink what you're communicating. Either way, by writing as a form of communication, you minimize reactivity (and that can be futile or dangerous in a M).
-By understanding your partners feelings on a deep and intimate level, you will naturally learn to appreciate them for their uniqueness and vulnerability. This creates more love. Consequently, it shows you the "why" in their actions and behaviors. Those daily disagreements and conflicts begin to have less importance as you gain this valuable insight into who they really are.
-By understanding your own feelings more clearly, you naturally begin to explore the "why." You learn to have more compassion for yourself as you look into your own complexity and vulnerability.
-Laughter is paramount in love. If you can learn to share humor in the little things and even the greater obstacles in life, it makes it more manageable. The connection deepens when everything is not taken so seriously. Laughter reminds us of a newer and easier time, often in the earlier days. Things were joyful and easy then.
Ok. Back to life. Must. Be. Productive.
Blu
So we are 3 weeks post the start of Retrouvaille. I am starting to feel a shift in my thoughts and feelings. The triggers don't have much affect on my emotions. I feel more calm in general. I have a new level of compassion and understanding for my H. We have shared more laughs in the last 3 weeks than we have in a long time. I feel hopeful. ... I also know that I need so keep on it. There are no light switches or magic fairy dust. This will be a continued effort and commitment on both our parts.
I think in DR when MW says it only "takes one to tango," she is referring to the fact that it takes one to show changes, to be affectionate, to be open, to find forgiveness and understanding, and to start the healing process. Once we can start that, we know we have opened the door. What we can't do is force the other person to come inside. That has to be their choice. I am trying to keep my home warm and inviting and not just assume H will always want to be here. That is the only thing I can control.
Blu
So we are 3 weeks post the start of Retrouvaille. I am starting to feel a shift in my thoughts and feelings. The triggers don't have much affect on my emotions. I feel more calm in general. I have a new level of compassion and understanding for my H. We have shared more laughs in the last 3 weeks than we have in a long time. I feel hopeful. ... I also know that I need so keep on it. There are no light switches or magic fairy dust. This will be a continued effort and commitment on both our parts.
yes ^^^^^
I think in DR when MW says it only "takes one to tango," she is referring to the fact that it takes one to show changes, to be affectionate, to be open, to find forgiveness and understanding, and to start the healing process.
yes^^^^
Once we can start that, we know we have opened the door. What we can't do is force the other person to come inside. That has to be their choice. I am trying to keep my home warm and inviting and not just assume H will always want to be here. That is the only thing I can control.
Blu
great post.
Looking back, I think if we had addressed h's underlying issues 10 years ago, well...who knows? All I can say is that it would either have helped us truly restore AND stay on track with our m,
or we'd have ended it then. You are doing what you can, so stay at it.
As for the "not just assume h will always want to be here"....
do you mean that you cannot take his involvement in the m, as a given? Not take him for granted?
(I'm just asking for clarification b/c I was not sure.)
Keep posting!!
25, I just realized I missed your last post, sorry! ... sometimes you make me think too hard :-) It's also lame that I still don't know how to do multiple quotes in one post. Oh well.
You talked about marrying our head and the heart, and I think ultimately *that* is the most important M of all. Hmmm, maybe THAT is the meaning of life? (Ever since Retrouvaille, I now speak and think in metaphors. It is constant source of laughter between us too. "How was your day?" "Bright yellow. Sunny and warm. Curious--like a new chick hatching." lol) I digress ... Clearly I am not a writer and I do very little writing for my job.
So head and heart--yes, the union is the real M goal--not the perfection but the delicate balance. Perhaps an authentic life is one where our decisions and core values (head) align with our feelings and emotions (heart). Instead of a war with one winner, they live in harmony. I am working on this way of life. I like the idea of them both shaping one another, but ultimately the head should have greater influence. In Biology, the Nature Vs Nurture argument, never has one answer because each constantly affects the other, and back and forth they go. There is even some evidence now that suggest that during sex we may even be exchanging DNA with our partner. That puts an entirely different spin on relationships, doesn't it?
Will my M survive? I would say "yes." However if it doesn't, I know without a doubt I will be fine and my life can still be great. I didn't know that before and I can see the unhealthy dynamics and codependency that existed. It is near impossible to see codependency when you are IN it. I like to think of these things as silver linings in my sitch. The more growth I find, the more I can see through the pain.
25, you talk about how things could have been different. I get a sense that you ponder what you could have done better. From my perspective (my very limited perspective), I wonder what your H could have done differently. As you know, you couldn't have really controlled that or even influenced it as much as you may have wanted to. That is what is so hard about this M stuff. Even if we are (as damn near close as we can be to) perfect, we still have zero control over the other person. You talk about "his underlying issues," which is really on him, isn't it? Not only to work through them, but to be willing to. Not everyone is. Maybe most are not, I don't know.
Did I take my H for granted? Absolutely. Again though, I was in this codependent M and couldn't see it clearly. When I met my H, he was such a breath of fresh air. I thought as we moved through life together and accomplished our goals that it would be enough. That things would slowly, and only, get better over time. That with each accomplishment--degrees, jobs, children, home purchase, and on and on, that life would just get better. I was ill prepared for all of the obstacles and hardships that came with it.
As life got more complicated over the years--because we lacked healthy coping mechs--the M kept taking one hit after the next. All we knew in terms of how to deal with things were what we saw or felt growing up. It wasn't enough! I didn't know it was even happening or that we were deteriorating. I thought our chosen union and feelings of love were enough. We were still together, still loving, still moving forward, etc, etc, that I couldn't see the foundation crumbling. Then the house fell down and it was too late.
So while I will never call his A and our separation a "blessing in disguise," because it has felt more like a curse, I will say that so much positive has come from it. The positive is that we have both chosen to look at ourselves deeply, to look at the M closely, and to do the hard work of rebuilding. If we blasted to the past 3-4 years go, the foundation was still unstable, even if the house didn't fall over. We could have lived in it, but that life didn't feel safe anymore. It wasn't enough. .... What was I talking about again ...
Oh yeah, so now I choose to be with him, and not because my vows say so. Not because I think it's the right thing, but because I like who he is becoming. I like myself more too. Again, more silver linings--they are there if you let yourself find them.
Blu
Beautiful BluWave. This will definitely give hope that a M can survive an affair. Love, if you see my post, is a strange thing.
But what is a real choice, is one to never give up, never let go, always holding on to what you have, even if that is not someone physical, but hope. They say that faith is a belief in things that you cannot see. I saw a sign the other day that said that "belief is not faith, knowing is faith". And I have to agree.
If you believe that your M will survive, then there's a good chance it will. However, if you know it will survive, then nothing can stand in your way. You will be that lighthouse, calling the other one home, even if the beach is foggy and it's raining. Two hearts that were meant for each other will always return to each other...
I'm a hopeless romantic... aaaargghhh
25, I just realized I missed your last post, sorry! ... sometimes you make me think too hard :-) It's also lame that I still don't know how to do multiple quotes in one post. Oh well.
You talked about marrying our head and the heart, and I think ultimately *that* is the most important M of all. Hmmm, maybe THAT is the meaning of life? (Ever since Retrouvaille, I now speak and think in metaphors. It is constant source of laughter between us too. "How was your day?" "Bright yellow. Sunny and warm. Curious--like a new chick hatching." lol) I digress ... Clearly I am not a writer and I do very little writing for my job.
I loved most of the Retrovaille metaphors, but some were...difficult. So head and heart--yes, the union is the real M goal--not the perfection but the delicate balance.
Perhaps an authentic life is one where our decisions and core values (head) align with our feelings and emotions (heart). Instead of a war with one winner, they live in harmony.
Good point. Living an authentic life is my goal. I think I'd prefer sharing it with someone, but maybe not. I've never lived alone in my life and there is something very valuable about this experience. It still feels like PTSD at times, but at other times It feels like a new beginning and a new me.
Hopefully a more authentic me. I am working on this way of life. I like the idea of them both shaping one another, but ultimately the head should have greater influence. In Biology, the Nature Vs Nurture argument, never has one answer because each constantly affects the other, and back and forth they go.
There is even some evidence now that suggest that during sex we may even be exchanging DNA with our partner. That puts an entirely different spin on relationships, doesn't it?
for some reason this^^ made me very sad. I think it's loss, and probably the OW images...Will my M survive? I would say "yes." However if it doesn't, I know without a doubt I will be fine and my life can still be great.
I didn't know that before and I can see the unhealthy dynamics and codependency that existed. It is near impossible to see codependency when you are IN it. I
agreed^^^
like to think of these things as silver linings in my sitch. The more growth I find, the more I can see through the pain.
25, you talk about how things could have been different. I get a sense that you ponder what you could have done better.
I could have insisted h get IC, I could have dug deeper with him about WHY he was able to leave us for so long and not ache. He claimed to miss us terribly, but yet...he still went. Seemed to think that his mistake was more about misjudging the business angle and not about the damage he did to the m or kids. I should have paid more attention to that and less to reconciling.
I did not throw anything in his face and I did not hold a grudge so I feel good about that. I don't know what else, but maybe I'll think of something. From my perspective (my very limited perspective),
I wonder what your H could have done differently.
^^^a hell of a lot
As you know, you couldn't have really controlled that or even influenced it as much as you may have wanted to. That is what is so hard about this M stuff. Even if we are (as damn near close as we can be to) perfect, we still have zero control over the other person.
You talk about "his underlying issues," which is really on him, isn't it? Not only to work through them, but to be willing to. Not everyone is. Maybe most are not, I don't know.
H was NOT willing (or able??) to look deep within, and face some lousy parts to him.
There was a lot of deceit going on back then, just as there was the past year.
One nasty part of this is when others use a diagnosis of whatever label, (narcissism comes up a lot with my friends and family, describing h)
it does not "vindicate" me nearly as much as I feel more idiotic and naive. Why on earth was the crap he gave me, enough?
Like a slot machine that pays out a few quarters every 40 times you insert a quarter, somehow that was enough for me? Like I had to keep playing or all the quarters would be lost forever.
And now to hear of his fb posts about how he has found the love of his life, (in 2-4 months, depending on when it began)
is obviously a slap in my face. And to our children, according to them.
But it troubles me most that h sounds as if he believes it! (Not sure)
Can it be true that I was his big obstacle to happiness? Well, I guess that would mean our d's were too, since h left the first time after our son graduated and missed 2 years of their lives.
No, I am smh now. The "So Happy NOW" - if true, then I guess h was not the family man he once was. The kids will never ever see him the same way and they will never feel close to him. That is just true.
Gosh, reading that^^ makes me sick. And sad for all of them. Blu, that's not my fault. I know...
But what if I had left earlier? Then what if I had met someone kind and loyal, 5 years ago? What type of m could I have modeled for my kids, then?
SIGH yes I am now officially ruminating and must stop.
I want to use the "don't look back, it's not where you're going" mantra for now.
Did I take my H for granted? Absolutely. Again though, I was in this codependent M and couldn't see it clearly. When I met my H, he was such a breath of fresh air. I thought as we moved through life together and accomplished our goals that it would be enough.
That things would slowly, and only, get better over time. That with each accomplishment--degrees, jobs, children, home purchase, and on and on, that life would just get better. I was ill prepared for all of the obstacles and hardships that came with it.
we married while I was still in college, then h's veterinary school, my law school, his change of career into medical school, internship and residency AND 3 kids along the way...
just to have the brass ring and then h yanking it away like an idiot. Very unfair and at times, infuriating.
I cannot handle the anger I feel at times. It's too much. So I withdraw. But I so relate to what you wrote above...As life got more complicated over the years--because we lacked healthy coping mechs--the M kept taking one hit after the next. All we knew in terms of how to deal with things were what we saw or felt growing up. It wasn't enough! I didn't know it was even happening or that we were deteriorating. I thought our chosen union and feelings of love were enough. We were still together, still loving, still moving forward, etc, etc, that I couldn't see the foundation crumbling. Then the house fell down and it was too late.
So while I will never call his A and our separation a "blessing in disguise," because it has felt more like a curse, I will say that so much positive has come from it. The positive is that we have both chosen to look at ourselves deeply, to look at the M closely, and to do the hard work of rebuilding. If we blasted to the past 3-4 years go, the foundation was still unstable, even if the house didn't fall over. We could have lived in it, but that life didn't feel safe anymore. It wasn't enough. .... What was I talking about again ...
Oh yeah, so now I choose to be with him, and not because my vows say so. Not because I think it's the right thing, but because I like who he is becoming. I like myself more too. Again, more silver linings--they are there if you let yourself find them.
Blu
I'm finding the silver linings alone. I have no choice, but even if I did, the years of lying to me and about me, would be too much for h to face and admit. Probably too much for me to deal with but I'm not sure.
He betrayed me in every way a h can, and he inflicted so much pain on the 4 people who loved him the most. When I ponder that, and am shocked, i realize I'm putting my rational spin on irrational behavior.
Blu, unlike your h, my h has had 2 chances and he blew each. This time he did it when I was so sick, and right as it was supposed to be "25's turn" to choose where to live. There was some long term cognitive dissonance going on there.
I still love who he once was. But that man is dead, I think. I fear (not sure) that it's mostly or all my ego that wants him to want back in.
And the more lousy he is with this divorce, the more I realize how little hope there is of that, b/c it's just way too much damage.
And a growing part of me says "wouldn't it be better to at least NOT have the tension that existed in the past 18 months (and periodically throughout the past decade)
than with h?" Being alone is better than wishing you were.
And another growing part of me thinks it will be nice to love someone again, someone who has my back and enjoys my company, and isn't always angling for their agenda and hiding seething resentments...
is that too much to ask?
Last night I went to a DivorceCare group and some men were talking about their custody battles. I was so moved by the men who were sad about not seeing their kids more.
I would give anything to have a h who missed his kids and ached for their company, like these guys.
maybe h does, but obviously not enough. And from what I hear about his interactions with our children, he lashes out at them when there is no affirmation of his choices, coming from them.
Idiot. How could I have loved a guy like that, for decades?
Did I take my H for granted? Absolutely. Again though, I was in this codependent M and couldn't see it clearly. When I met my H, he was such a breath of fresh air. I thought as we moved through life together and accomplished our goals that it would be enough. That things would slowly, and only, get better over time. That with each accomplishment--degrees, jobs, children, home purchase, and on and on, that life would just get better. I was ill prepared for all of the obstacles and hardships that came with it.
This is something W and I discussed a lot in therapy. The "taking for granted". We will never do this again. We often discussed walking along the beach with our grandchildren as we grew old together. Actually, when she moved in with a friend temporarily, her saddest thought was, "Storm and I will not be together for our grandkids".
We rugswept for years. Years and years. Afraid to hurt each others feelings. Man, how I remember those first days after I kicked her out, the texts that flew back and forth. There was no holding back on either side. She said she didn't feel the same way anymore. I called her a lying cheating slut. The vitriol that spewed from me would make any woman cringe. Everything collapsed, just like a Ponzi scheme. Turns out love DOESN'T conquer all. I remember telling her how much I loved her despite our differences, and she responded, "how the HELL is that love? Shouldn't we share one common thing?"
If this marriage was going to survive, it would take peeling back layers of animosity that built up over the latter years. I think if not for the duration of longevity between us, I may have chucked reconciliation. I'm too old to want to start over.
So while I will never call his A and our separation a "blessing in disguise," because it has felt more like a curse, I will say that so much positive has come from it. The positive is that we have both chosen to look at ourselves deeply, to look at the M closely, and to do the hard work of rebuilding.
This is good. My W has had the unfortunate experience of dealing with major depression now (after me having it for almost a year). Her episodes aren't long, maybe a week or so, but they usually follow an argument. So we try our best to work through it and no longer rugsweep. I have the mentality of, "ok, you have to go through this" instead of rescuing her, like I would always do. If she forgot a bill and the debt collector rang, she'd panic and I'd feel guilty and pay it for her. I no longer do this. We're trying not to be as co-dependent as we used to be. She, OTOH, doesn't baby me through my mental issues, instead, she now talks to me yet is understanding and stern when needed. I don't need a mommy anymore. And she doesn't need a daddy. A little tough love never hurt anyone.
There is so much GOOD that has come out of this. We talk. Sex is better and more frequent. I've faced my anxieties about a lot of things now and I've come out a much better person. I'm a much more sympathetic guy. I put my W first. I ask if she needs help around the house. I praise her. She texts me a lot, calls me cute names now.
We like the new people we are. We just have to get used to it.
Wow Blu. I just spent several days reading everything everyone has had to say on every single post on all your threads. And I have learned SO much. I am desperately trying to detach. For myself. To heal. I have been separated for 8 months from my WH. He had an EA. And I would verbally punish him every chance I got. I didn't see it as punishment. Until now. I was just angry and thought how will he know how much he has hurt me if I don't tell him. Every chance I got I put him down and berated him. He did show remorse and sorrow. But I couldn't get over it. And I didn't see that until now. I know he felt horrible and like slime for doing it. Our relationship wasn't perfect before and had its issues. Hence him having an EA. But eventually he had enough of me berating and he left. I couldn't see his pain for my own pain. Now he has rewritten our history and has blamed me for most everything in our past. I have always told him I don't begrudge him leaving. I begrudge him for not giving our family another chance. He split up our family and didn't think twice. And I'm mad about that. I'm mad he walked out. Now I need to have peace. He has told me several times that he will not come back. Yet he refuses to sit down to hash out finances. He won't cash any of my cheques I give him for mortgage. He pays all the house bills here. He pays for my new car and insurance. He pays for my gas. We own a business together. So we see each other every day. That's hard. I still argue. He says he needs that to stop. And I'm trying. It is so hard to not be angry. He has anxiety issues. So he gets all worked up and gets angry very easily. He also carries baggage from his childhood (don't we all ) so when he gets angry and pushes my buttons I try so hard to remain calm. But I blow up. And then accuse him of having a gf. He doesn't. But it's hard to trust him. And really we are separated. He can do whatever he wants. It's none of my business. And that is what I am trying to do. I'm getting new hobbies, hanging out with my friends and decluttering my house. I'm also going to lose some weight. I'm working on becoming a better me. My gut instinct tells me that my WH will come home. He has done so many temp checks. Again I didn't know it as that until I read thru your posts. But I don't get it. He is verbally said that he isn't coming home. But so far as I know he hasn't made any move to make this separation final. We are only common in law. So actual divorce proceedings are needed. I envy your position of piecing. But I just look at my WH and think he said he doesn't want to commit another 5 years to our R let alone 2. He said if he needs to start over in his life he needs to do it now. And that breaks my heart. Seriously. My therapist says if he was serious of splitting up he would have already had the paperwork drawn up and not looked back. She thinks he is still fence sitting. Still in the fog as you vets call it. But I can't handle the back and forth anymore. I told him straight out. I do not want this separation. But if you do then I will sit back and watch you walk away. Because really. I can't fight for a relationship that he doesn't want. So I'm not giving up hope. But I need to detach and become health in my mind. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart for your honest posts. And everyone else responses. You have helped me see the real way to detach and heal.
Edited. Actual divorce proceedings are NOT needed.
I can't fight for a relationship that he doesn't want. So I'm not giving up hope. But I need to detach and become health in my mind. So thank you. From the bottom of my heart for your honest posts. And everyone else responses. You have helped me see the real way to detach and heal.
Henwen, I am right here with you. I'm sitting in a M that my wife no longer wants and has clearly told me she no longer considers herself a part of. I've been lying in bed next to her this morning just thinking about how she's left and abandoned me while we still occupy the same house and the same bed.
I know I need to detach and heal and go on with my life but it is a complete struggle this past week. Reading that others are going through the same things as me, conquering their fears and going on to heal in their lives is an inspiration.
Hi everyone,
It looks like it is time for a new thread, and so I will start one and comment there.
Thank you,
Blu