New to this, so Ima just throw it all out there: Married for 20 years, two kids, 17 and 18, both with special needs (1 Tourettes, 1 OCD with some mild LD). Health problems fairly early in marriage limited my ability to be intimate as much as W wanted, I pushed her away some to spare myself my own feelings of inadequacy, etc. I also was not the best at assisting with home upkeep, much of the childrearing, etc. Basically I just eventually kind of shut down and "went to sleep." My health problems were resolved beginning approx 8 years ago, but by then damage already done. We had already started the drift apart, lack of intimacy had made us more cross with each other, neither of us respected others' view on things, etc. She felt and still feels disrespected by kids and feels I contributed to that (which I probably did) by not supporting her enough. BUT: Big problem is the lack of intimacy. W is a VERY sexual being, more than I ever knew for sure, though I did know she was a bit like that, but she is also conflicted due to Catholic upbringing and church's views on sex, birth control, etc. The "NFP" birth control endorsed by the Church and which we committed to was actually probably a contributing factor, particularly since I was "scared" of any additional children due to my health, and since we weren't "pristine" with the timing and measurement principles of the protocol. In a nutshell, we just ended up not making love nearly enough, and certainly not as much as she would have wanted. Other intimacy (touching, handholding, hugging, even the kiss going out the door in the AM) eventually vanished. And then, so did even the rote "I love you"s. My ring disappeared during a period of home renovation/cleaning over two years ago, and she stopped wearing hers about 6 months later. Over the last probably 6-7 years she has come to me directly wanting to talk about the lack of intimacy (not just sex) and also the other problems as well, probably 3-4 times, most recently in early January, each time to some extent in tears. Each time I have to some extent tried to turn it back on her, blaming "the way she talked to me" or "to the kids" which could be mean-spirited but, honestly, probably had its genesis in the way she was being treated by me, and, most recently, I just didn't know what to do-- I was starting to come to the realization (finally) that we were really in trouble, and had started to suspect an affair might be ongoing since late November. Exactly three weeks ago today, I discovered she was having an affair with one of my best friends-- someone to whom I had gone for help with the relationship, and who took advantage of that information and my wife's vulnerability to make his move. The affair was not, at that time, physical (I overheard a phone conversation and my wife and I discussed it and I am confident that, at least at that time, it was not.) She also told me she had not slept with anyone since before we were dating/engaged, and I believe her. However, there are clearly feelings there based on what I overheard. (though she did not say she loved him). This affair has been going on, near as I can figure, since late November. We have not discussed it in great detail, just that "I went to ________ because I needed someone I could talk to. He makes me laugh and makes me feel wanted and desired and sexy. He's been there for me. It has only been flirtation, sometimes heavy, so far. I like him, he's a 'friend'". But, from their conversation, it was clear it was a bit more than that and that it was heading towards consummation-- they were discussing hiding and deleting emails and pictures they had sent, and how long it would be before they could be "seen in public together" if they "ever got together."
Current status is that we are talking, almost daily, though not in couples therapy. I discovered, rather suddenly, that I had buried my feelings deeply and still very much love her (VERY much-- it hurts terribly) and am now dealing with the guilt of having neglected her and pushed her away for so long, particularly since she remained faithful to me for all those years despite her sexual nature (and, yes, I am very confident of this.) She says she cares for me but does "not love me" and doesn't know if she can ever see herself wanting a romantic or intimate relationship with me again, but that she DOES know she wants and even needs to feel "sexy and wanted and desired", which this ex-friend of mine (who is definitely a bit of a womanizer) has done for her. He had been texting multiple times a day and sending her all sorts of flowers and little gifts. Contact with the OM has not stopped. He continues to text her fairly regularly (almost daily) even as he knows I know what is going on. She has responded on a handful of occasions (I see the cellphone records in the bill) and, this past Saturday, went with a girlfriend to a bar where she knew he was almost certain to be. To her credit, when I called her to see when she would be getting home (she had initially indicated she would be home somewhat sooner), she told me where she was (though not WON the OM was there, which I assume he almost certainly was) and I thanked her for being honest and told her "in the spirit of honesty on my part, you know I'd rather you not be there" and then said "whatever, I'll see you when you get back" and hung up. She did come home, almost immediately, and we talked and I apologized for being controlling. She remains fairly steadfast that "she doesn't know if she can see us ever getting back to being a romantic couple", and had previously said she is not sure she was ever truly "in love with me" (which is definitely revisionist on her part) and couldn't even remember any of our happy memories, BUT, in the past few days she has, on her own, recalled a couple.
My main problem is is that I feel like I am sort of in limbo in terms of how I should be proceeding. Am I in "repair" mode-- be nice, caring, loving, supportive, etc., OR am I in or near "Last Resort" mode where I want to play it very cool and cut contact? I think I am honestly somewhere in between. I DEFINITELY want to work on the relationship and hope in my deepest of hopes that we can reconcile. She, while having stepped back a half step from the brink of walking out, says she is conflicted and confused, but still feels a bit like she is trapped and not making any progress. Problem is, she does not want to commit to working on the relationship. I am sure the continued contact with the OM is not helping her clarity. Additionally, her best friend (my best friend's wife) is in the process of separating, is probably a support for her on the "separate" side of the ledger, and oh-by-the-way turns out to know (friends of friends) the OM, which she did not discover until about the time the affair was kicking off, and who now likes to hang out at that same bar (and invite my wife to do so). Based on fairly good intel, I don't think my wife's friend is actively encouraging her to carry on the affair-- I think she just really likes this bar and lieks hanging out with her new friends and wants my wife (her best friend) to be there too. As for my wife's attitude towards me, it ranges from friendly, joking, even lightly flirtatious (with some confusing and even small suggestive signals-- totally inconsistent with everything she has said verbally--thrown in). We have been out socially 2 or three times and both enjoyed it, though she says she is not certain if it is just like a friendship thing or something more. She also has periods where she "pulls back" and is colder or cries a lot, and my sense is that these are days where the OM has somehow muddied the waters by contacting her. Pretty sure he sent her flowers and some earrings last week. For my part, I have been complimentary, extremely helpful around the house, and have become energized, committing myself to taking care of myself better (not like I am a slob, I am actually a fairly attractive, athletically built, though on the slim side, man, and my health has returned to it's pre-sickness quality.) My leadership has even gotten the kids to treat her with more love and respect, all of which she has noticed. But... still in limbo.
Working with one of the coaches, and my goal for this week was have her initiate some sort of physical touch (which she has been reluctant to do for fear of "giving me the wrong idea.") I was also to initiate touches of my own where I felt comfortable doing so and where it wasn't too aggressive/forward. Finally, cooling it on the R talk as much as possible unless she initiated (since it seems to go better when she does so). Been doing most of that, but no luck. She had warmed up to me a bit in week two, clearly "leaning in to me" for a while during our son's basketball game" and then sleeping closer to me in bed that night (though not touching), but then she pulled back, and nothing since. Although she has stayed in "our" bed with me except for one "very bad day" she had which I think was probably brought on by OM confusion and where she slept in the guest room. Before all this came to a head, we had been sleeping apart, under the guise of a number of bad excuses (differing schedules, didn't want to wake you) for somewhere between 30-50% of the time.
MOST recent development is we had both a) a very nice friend-y talk about work, friends, life, etc AND b) a relationship talk where she talked about still "feeling stuck" for the reasons already stated, DID mention a couple of fond memories she had of us and where I, for a number of reasons, told her I released her from her vows to me even as I still wanted to work on renewing our relationship and did NOT want to separate. (Understand that this was done mostly to remove SOME of the guilt and pressure off of her as she is dealing with alot of issues, not all of which I will go into here, and not because I thought she would immediately bolt-- she is still catholic and the religious/church obligations should still be somewhat of an impediment to her leaving, but this is something I wanted to give her, especially since I feel like our past relationship is "broken" and I don't have a right to make any claim on her given how I neglected her all those years. Plus, I want to be free of the overlay of jealousy and "controlling" love. if she comes back, I want her back because she wants to be with me.
So, what does everyone think? Have i misplayed this? How am I playing it wrong? Should I be dropping the hammer and saying "Cut it off cold turkey with the OM"? (remember the affair is only a bit over two months old and I only found out three weeks ago-- I don't expect any "feelings" there to have dissipated yet.) Do I keep trying to initiate physical contact and complement her, etc? Part of my big conundrum here is that she very obviously and explicitly wants a physical relationship, has been frustrated to one degree or another for close to ten years, but as things CURRENTLY stand, does not see me (I dont think) as a likely partner. She also feels like time is running out on her waning youth and is scared to devote more time to a relationship that was a black hole of sorts for ten years already. to that extent she feels "trapped" and like she is not "making any progress" in her life. I know if we are ever to be together again that it will, by definition, take time and work, but I am not certain that she is willing or able to wait that long. I am confident I can be the man she needs to me to be, now... just not certain that I am going to be given the time.
Hello hoosjim,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
I moved you to newcomers so that more people will see your post and be able to support you.
It is estimated that one of every three married couples struggles with problems associated with mismatched sexual desire.
Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal.
I'm glad you are working with a DB Coach. Stick with the feedback/suggestions you are getting from your coach. Don't panic if the responses/changes you are wanting are slow in coming. Your wife may be guarded to see if your changes are genuine and long lasting.
Please call me when you would like to schedule another session.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
LBH here, bomb dropped three months ago (January 2016) after I discovered phone/text records and overheard call.
Affair (EA)with OM is now approximately 6 months old.
W "drew back" from affair for a handful of weeks but now fully "engaged" with OM yet again.
I have successfully implemented GAL measures (which have been noticed), but W speaking out both sides of her mouth.
Says she is "not in love" does not "Want to be with anyone" and relationship with OM is on hold, but I recently discovered this is not so and that she is telling him how much she wants to be with him, is "working on" breaking free from me, etc.
Two children, older teenagers, and her fear of losing/alienating them are probably only reason she is currently sticking around, IMO, based on things she has said.
Also, overheard conversation and way she talked/acted (like a completely different person from the woman I know and married--very vulgar/bawdy, etc.) make me think she is probably what Sandi would designate as a WW... if not for the fact that the affair has still not gone physical (although phone sex has, I think, possibly been involved.)
She is still living in the house and in our bedroom, though we are not having sex.
The background to our difficulties involves multiple years of neglect (7-10) on my part as the primary culprit.
My question is, at what point (possibly now) do I put my foot down and say "Enough is enough-- I can let you go if I have to but I will not share you. Either you cut contact with the OM or we move you out-- of the bedroom if not the entire house.")
Too late for this to have any effect? Too soon for the circumstances?
Curious.
Thanks Cadet.
I have actually read all that you suggest-- Dr. Michele's books, Sandi's 37 steps, all of Sandi's threads on Wayward Wives, and a couple of others.
I have actually been a lurker on here for a couple of months, and have even had a few sessions with a DB coach.
I have implemented many of the strategies with varying degrees of success, but there was a LOT of damage done in my marriage by my neglect-- approximately 10 years worth, and the neglect was fairly significant.
The bomb dropped on me in the form of discovering an EA (but a pretty steamy one) between my W and a fairly close friend.
Since then, I have struggled with the tension between "creating distance" or "disattaching" and the very dynamic (neglect) that got me here in the first place.
My self improvements and life-getting and 180s have been fairly profound and have been noticed and drawn SOME interest, but... not enough to pull her away from the OM.
It has been 3 months since the bomb, and the affair is 6 months old.
And it now appears to be ramping up.
The recent convo I overheard was pertinent to another uncertainty with which I was struggling, which was WON my W was actually "wayward."
Given how out of character she sounded, and given also how she has acknowledged being selfish and "not caring",
I think it might be safe to say she is PROBABLY a wayward except... she still has a lot of fear of alienating and losing her children (though not enough fear to get her to cut contact with the OM.)
I am very close to putting my foot down and demanding that she cut contact or, if not, we separate (at least "in house.")
Wondering if that is the right approach, however.
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
If adultery is not something you're willing to accept then you should put your foot down. That is a boundary. A HUGE one for married people. Don't rage but do be firm about your boundaries and your self-respect.
I think putting my foot down and enforcing that boundary IS the right thing to do here... but it's very hard. Had a couple of zen-types.. good friends... counseling me that I need to be "loving" and "uncontrolling" etc. etc. That, and the personal changes and 180s and a bit of detachment seemed to help... at first. For a few weeks she sharply reduced contact with the OM and seemed to be reconnecting with me. Then, a couple weeks back, something happened. Like a light switch. Not sure what it was but think she "ended up" at a bar night or gathering or event (she goes out with her girlfriends from time to time, one of whom runs in the OM's circles occasionally) where the OM was and things rekindled. Thought things were on the right track, but now more distance (and more hopeless-looking) than ever. Like a roller coaster. Been growing in a lot of ways but this is holding me back because can't move forward. And, of course, I find that I am crazy in love with her.
Same sitch as posted yesterday. I'm a lurker here since January, so not as much of a noob as it might seem. Read alot about WWs, which I am now pretty sure mine is.. and she is in "deep", can't keep herself from going back to him, is planning "future" with him (even though could almost never happen) etc., etc. OM is a former "friend" of mine and is a single divorcee, so no leverage with his wife available to me.
Two very dicey questions as we approach this weekend where I plan to put my foot down and say "Cut contact or out you go":
1) Is it ever advisable to ACTIVELY threaten to tell kids. In my case this is the one thing that I KNOW she fears losing, as she has repeatedly said "I know I'm being selfish... I know the kids are going to hate me.. I don't want to lose the kids", and, after our first talk about "I wont share you" last week, she came back at me a couple days later with "I really felt unsafe and threatened", implying that I had threatened her with outing her to the kids (amongst other things-- putting her out into the street and trashing her, etc.) which I had not even come CLOSE to threatening or even implying. However, come to think of it, now, i would NOT be inclined to lie to the kids to protect her (she has been very "we need to be of one mind if/when we tell the kids.. that this is a "joint" decision and it is not just one of us walking away") if the affair came to light. And I have several times warned her about her being so indiscreet (she is a terrible, as in unconvincing, liar and really, truly horrible at hiding secrets--leaves love notes and her "cheater phone" just lying around etc etc.) and the kids possibly finding out and being devastated (and losing respect for me, to boot.) The OM was not only a friend to me but was also involved with their HS athletic team and a bit of a friend to them as well. Both boys are older-- 16 and 18-- and I think the older one has, based on questions he's asked me, already guessed that something may be up with Mom and this "OM", though I think right now he probably just figures he made a play for her and that is what ended our friendship. At any rate, is this fair game to make an ACTIVE threat? I have for the most part been very "detached" and GAL-centered and have remained positive and upbeat (even loving) towards her since BD, and, for a while, this was paying dividends, until suddenly about three-four weeks back when, I believe, the A went "physical" and everything went to hell. She "trusts" me quite a bit more, now, and an "Active" threat would, to me, seem to be going nuclear. My plan had been to just say: "look, you mentioned "threats" last week, but what is threatening is your behaviour-- to our marriage, and to our children. If they found out [and this is extremely likely given the timeline of this affair and her indiscretion and, even notwithstanding her discretion if they "got together" after a split no one with half a brain, especially the kids, is going to believe there wasn't something going on before... and they are CERTAIN to ask me] they would be DEVASTATED. The THREAT is your relationship with this OM... without that, if we are just going through a break up because we "grew apart", there is almost NO risk that the kids are going to hate you. The only THREAT here is what you are doing extramaritally." Now, that was my PLAN... but... given how this is going (and things are looking increasingly dark/bad for me here) should i consider explicitly "going nuclear" on this? Maybe just leaving it hanging as an "open threat?" (And if I were so inclined, I could go "super nuclear" because I have a recording of them pretty explicitly discussing one of their encounters in addition to "what they like." Yes. Ouch.) Again, as further color, my boys are 16 (almost 17) and 18, so I wouldn't be threatening TOO much "youthful innocence". Just curious everyone's thoughts.
Issue #2) OM is not a total stranger. Was a pretty close friend of mine, and I never talked to or otherwise communicated with him after I discovered the A. Probably a good idea as, for several weeks, I likely would have tried to punch his lights out. I am somewhat more centered and circumspect now, however, as well as more "right with God", (much stronger faith than before), so I believe I could sit across a table from him now without it getting physical. In the other direction, I do not believe him to be dangerous (but, then again, I never thought he'd be someone to steal my wife, either). Not sure what I would hope to gain by doing this, precisely, other than to let him know I fully understand how he used my wife's and my respective vulnerabilities (related to him in confidence) to make his play, and how the fact that he did so notwithstanding the turmoil one of my kid's was going through (my younger has a chronic illness) and how important that child's mother and family was to his well-being and that, even knowing that, he attacked my family. I would also be hoping to maybe rattle his cage a bit by showing i am not backing down nor giving up, that I plan on fighting and exposing him if i can do so without hurting my wife, and maybe just maybe impressing on my wife that I am a man who will fight for her. I understand that this course of action ABSOLUTELY would be dangerous and not recommended in many if not most cases but... wonder if anyone has gone down this path or has thoughts regarding doing so in my sitch.
Thanks, all, and God bless!
______________
M:21 T:25
Me:51, Wife: 48(and looks 35
)
S1:18
S2:16
PA: Ongoing, with former close friend, started as EA in 11/2016 (she is still denying much of it)
DB: 1/23/16
Sitch: still living together (same Bedroom). Had first discussion about "I wont share her" a week ago.
Thanks for the consolidate, Cadet (and, again, for all your help!) I was, however, hoping to get some eyeballs specifically on my two questions about "Telling Kids about affair" and "Confrontation", since these are two issues that are very "imminent" for me. Understand that policy is policy, though.
Thanks for the consolidate, Cadet (and, again, for all your help!) I was, however, hoping to get some eyeballs specifically on my two questions about "Telling Kids about affair" and "Confrontation", since these are two issues that are very "imminent" for me. Understand that policy is policy, though.
I will try to give you an answer shortly however in the meantime here is another piece of advice about how to get more people to post on your thread.
I can tell you it is NOT by creating more threads.
How to get more people to POST on my thread?
To get more replies my suggestion is to ask questions.
Put you post down in a readable fashion. (not one big block of type- ie hit carriage return frequently).
KISS = Keep it simple stupid
Post on other peoples threads and give them support.
You may not think you are qualified but you will be surprised that you may know something
or have some knowledge of something that others know nothing about.
Personally thank each poster that does post on your thread or ask them a follow up question.
Keep posting! - (Most important part)
Do not get your kids involved!!!!!!!
Nothing wrong with having a man to man conversation.
Thanks LH for the response. Never said I'd necessarily involve the kids, just threaten to. Assume your answer would be the same, though.
By the same token, would you actually advocate obscuring the truth from them (they ARE 17 and 18, remember) if they ask-- and remember I believe strongly that the older one already suspects.
Thanks again!!!
1. No, don't tell the children. They'll figure it out soon enough.
2. Sure, confront the friend (or ex-friend). Schedule a face-to-face meeting somewhere and discuss it with him. In my opinion, if you're unwilling to call someone out, you look very weak.
Is it ever advisable to ACTIVELY threaten to tell kids.
My opinion is you should DO NOTHING that actively puts you in the middle of the relationship between your kids and their mother.
Let her handle or not handle that.
Believe me they probably know more than you think and she has likely already done things to them that they do not like.
Our job is to be the BEST parent that we can possibly be, and not hurt our children.
Thanks, Cadet.. appreciate the assist.
I feel, as I am sure many here do, that I have screwed up so badly that I have nothing to offer (other than never, ever, ever, ever stop showing your wife how special she is to you-- but that advice will almost certainly be too late for anyone already on these boards, lol.)
I am mostly on an island here, for a number of reasons, so will probably try to start reaching out more.
I will strive to contribute where I can.
Thanks again!
Thanks again!
So I ask you
How can you be a better father?
Make me a list of 3 things that you can DO to help facilitate that?
Thanks, Cadet. I think this is very good, measured advice, which is often just the kind of advice I need to hear.
3 ways to be a better father:
1) Be "available" more when they need me.
2) Be more patient when they struggle (takes ALOT with a tourette's child)
3) Show/Tell them how they should treat a woman-- an area I really "fell down" on, obviously, and now don't have nearly the opportunity that I used to.
Thanks again, Cadet.
I will say a little more.
How attractive do you think being a good father is?
When we marry it is to find a mate to biologically make
offspring, so we look for someone with the characteristics we think we want to do that.
Later after we have children being a good parent is VERY important to attraction of our mate.
So some of the advice that 25MLC likes to give is to become
a person that only a fool would leave.
There are no guarantees here, however I can tell you that what you learn here can make you into one of those fathers.
Begging, Pleading, Bargaining is not going to re-attract your wife.
Read up on pursuit and distance.
Whatever you did in your marriage did not cause her to break her marriage vows.
That is all on her.
Love is a CHOICE.
It is NOT a feeling.
Ok work on that list.
3) Show/Tell them how they should treat a woman-- an area I really "fell down" on, obviously, and now don't have nearly the opportunity that I used to.
I think this one you should turn around to be
Show/Tell them how to be a good man!
They are boys/almost adults,
you are their male role model.
What does that look like to them?
If you look in the mirror - what does it look like to YOU?
Thanks for both replies, Cadet. On the attractiveness of "Being a good Father": I am sure it wont hurt, as such, but I am not certain the "find a mate/good-father and reproduce" dynamic is very pertinent in my case. My wife may be past the age (she is early stage menopause) where that instinct is very powerful. In this case, the adventure/excitement seratonin-rush from blandishment and sexual adventure seems to be the primary driver. The OM in question is definitely NOT the paragon of a good father (tried to get me to hire hookers for my teenage son to "make him a man"-- encourages his teenage son to have lots of premarital sex with older women so he "gets experienced with experienced girls.")
On being a good "man"-- something I definitely fell down on. Not that i wasn't a good "person", but good "man", well... not so much before the past three months. Have reawakened though, and am really turning things around. Looking forward to my conversation to close the loop with the OM...
Another question regarding my stance with the kids when I "drop the bomb" on her: "Cut ties or move out of the marital bedroom (or even the house)". She will want me to present a "united front" to the kids that we "both agree that we can't work things out" and that it will be "better for everyone if we separate" or some such tripe... Which is NOT true. MY position right now is that we COULD try to work things out if not for the overlay of the OM she is seeing. We were actually making progress before they rekindled things. We have NEVER given "us" and "our prospects" the full and fair consideration they should be given, so I am NOT ready to say "we both agree we can't." So... What DO i say? I can "leave it up to her" what to tell the kids, of course, but... they are CERTAIN, at almost 17 and 18 years, to ask me. Consensus seems to be that I do not "Out" their mom re: the Affair. Do I just say "Your Mom and I are having some difficult times in our relationship and don't agree on how to resolve them.. I offered her some ideas to resolve them (or offered to go to counseling-- should I(?)) but she does not want to work on the marriage right now." Any other thoughts on how I should respond to her inevitable pleas/requests to cover up for her with the kids and as to how I should actually respond to the kids!
Thanks all! This is all very helpful!!!
My H and I were in a brief MC phase when he told me we were definitely getting a divorce. I told him that I would NOT state or imply to my children, who are also older, that this was mutual. The MC agreed with me. He ended up running out and not coming back to have that converation with them so I had it alone. I said your father has decided he wants to leave the marriage and will not be living with us anymore . . . Make sure you stress that this has nothing to do with them and in reality very little to do with you at this point.
Another question regarding my stance with the kids when I "drop the bomb" on her: "Cut ties or move out of the marital bedroom (or even the house)".
YOU should not move out of the house or the MBR.
Let her move.
If you are going to move get your lawyers permission first as this is one of the biggest mistakes that you can make!
Thanks, cadet. It was never my intention for me to move out of either mbr or house. That's the choice I will be,offering HER. (cut ties or move out). My question more relates to what I can/should tell kids if it is not advisable to actually directly /explicitly "hout" Mom Re the affair.
Remember that your kids are half of her and half of you,
so be careful here on what you say or do.
I would be truthful and have boundaries but not
do any of this as a strategy.
Its one thing to tell it to HER face another to your children.
Cadet, that is very difficult and not sure I understand. If I set boundary of "I won't share her" under common roof or while cohabitating, and put decision on her to cut contact or else move out of mbr (and ultimately out of house), and she opts to not cut contact (which is the likely outcome in my case) the kids have to be told SOMETHING. I am on board with and understand the wisdom of not "outing" her about the affair, BUT... she WILL be moving out, and that move is not a decision with which I agree. If she tells them "dad and I have agreed we no longer want to be married", should I NOT say: "no, actually, I still want to work on our problems but your mother does not"? I understand this is a delicate tightrope to walk... I want there to be costs/consequences for my wife's behavior (affair), but by attacking her or appearing to actively alienate the kids from her I could be shooting myself in the foot. How would you or others suggest I approach this... because eventually I MYSELF am going to likely have to say something or answer questions from my very bright and inquisitive sons as to why mom is leaving bedroom and/or moving out. If I always default to "ask your mom"she's just going to say it's a joint decision.
IMO let her say its mutual the truth will come out eventually anyway. It always does.
IMO let her say its mutual the truth will come out eventually anyway. It always does.
I agree, you can't control what she says anyways.
Best to say nothing at this point.
With all due respect, I can't say nothing if the kids ask me directly. And they will. Do I lie?
Jim,
No, don't lie to your kids.
Again, if asked, I would calmly tell them, "I think you need to ask your mother".
With all due respect, I can't say nothing if the kids ask me directly. And they will. Do I lie?
LH, thanks. Would still be interested on ithers' (as many as possible) input on this, since it seems like a pretty sensitive subject. Would love to hear what Sandi, who seems to have a lot to say about WWs, has to say.
Also, Cadet, any way to get "WW" in my original subject line that shows up on the board index for this thread, since I'm pretty sure that's the case here? Maybe by deleting "a" before "drift apart" and putting in "WW" at the end?
Thanks sgain, sll, for all your help. This is really really hard right now, and I am not sleeping much at all.
Cadet, any way to get "WW" in my original subject line that shows up on the board index for this thread, since I'm pretty sure that's the case here?
I changed the title to the one in this post.
I agree with LH's advice.
Jim,
No, don't lie to your kids.
Again, if asked, I would calmly tell them, "I think you need to ask your mother".
This^^^^ I wouldn't lie. They are practically adults.
With all due respect, I can't say nothing if the kids ask me directly. And they will. Do I lie?
DO NOT LIE or cover for a cheating spouse. Especially to your kids. They'll see that as a betrayal by you.....because it would be. You don't have to go out of your way to tell them anything but if they ask, you answer truthfully. The truth is never wrong. Ever.
Jim,
I think the better idea is to have a man to man discussion with your supposed friend.
LH, that convo is definitely going to happen. My thinking is that I should talk to my wife first, put my foot down. Or do you think otherwise? Be glad to hear different opinions.
There was a story here awhile back that gave the writer's personal experience of how he had always blamed his father for divorcing his mother. It was during the time he was posting on the board about his own M problems, that his father finally told him the truth about his mother's infidelity. All those years he had refused to have a R with his father, b/c he had not been told what really happened......and was left to believe whatever his mother told him. With his father choosing not to expose the truth, he lost the relationship with his son. That story was an eye opener for me.
You and your W should face them together and sit both sons down at the same time to give them the news. I am not in favor of lying. At the same time, I don't suggest dishing out all the dirty details. I would not say, "Your mother and I have decided", as if you are taking equal responsibility for the decision to divorce instead of her doing the right thing and end her affair. Your sons are old enough to be told that their mother has met someone else and she wants out of the M. The only thing you've really agreed upon was to grant her a divorce. However, don't be surprised when your W resists telling them the truth, b/c most WW's want to be seen as "justified" to their children and everyone else.
It's not your job to destroy the relationship between your sons and their mother. It is your job to be honest with them. You are not trying to get them to take sides. They are young men, and will not appreciate being told some generic explanation for why their parents are splitting up the family. I feel some things between a man and his W should remain private. However, when it comes to why they got a divorce, children as old as yours should know the truth behind the D (at least, the basics).
That's just MHO.
Thanks, Sandi. Do not know if you read my entire thread, but this is a bit stickier than just an OM... He was a good friend of mine AND a bit of a friend to the boys. Also, the affair has been ongoing for nearly 6 months. Finally, we have not even mentioned the word "divorce", and have not even really discussed separation. My W has been effectively cake-eating. She has not been manipulative and disrespectful apart from the A (yes, that is a biggie) but all the other signs-- addictive behavior, personality change, selective memory, extreme selfishness-- of a WW are all there. I do not want to "grant her a divorce"... I do not even want to go down that road. i DO, however, want her out of my bedroom and, ASAP, my house as long as the affair continues. My understanding of the WW playbook in that regard was to put my foot down and insist on contact being cut or she's out. Are you saying that if she refuses to cut contact I should immediately lawyer up or otherwise get into a divorce-preparation stance? Separation not enough? Be interested in your take on all of this, particularly given the additional color on the A with the OM and how, if at all, that would affect how you approach telling the kids IF, as I suspect she will, she "chooses" the OM. (Alot stacked against me here, including that her best friend is also currently a wayward-- with multiple infidelities-- who runs in the same circle as the OM and who has a VERY outgoing personality and VERY jaded view on marriage and commitment.)
Also, still interested in anyone's take on WON I confront the OM for a FTF talk before OR after talking to my wife. To reiterate, I do not think that this prospect will be a dangerous one. (Then again, I never thought the guy would try to steal my wife.)
Another question regarding my stance with the kids when I "drop the bomb" on her: "Cut ties or move out of the marital bedroom (or even the house)". She will want me to present a "united front" to the kids that we "both agree that we can't work things out" and that it will be "better for everyone if we separate" or some such tripe... Which is NOT true. MY position right now is that we COULD try to work things out if not for the overlay of the OM she is seeing. We were actually making progress before they rekindled things. We have NEVER given "us" and "our prospects" the full and fair consideration they should be given, so I am NOT ready to say "we both agree we can't." So... What DO i say? I can "leave it up to her" what to tell the kids, of course, but... they are CERTAIN, at almost 17 and 18 years, to ask me. Consensus seems to be that I do not "Out" their mom re: the Affair. Do I just say "Your Mom and I are having some difficult times in our relationship and don't agree on how to resolve them.. I offered her some ideas to resolve them (or offered to go to counseling-- should I(?)) but she does not want to work on the marriage right now." Any other thoughts on how I should respond to her inevitable pleas/requests to cover up for her with the kids and as to how I should actually respond to the kids!
Thanks all! This is all very helpful!!!
Hello hoosjim,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
Michele has written an excellent article regarding what to tell the children. Please contact me directly and I will be happy to send you the link at no charge, of course.
The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Christy I've already had coaching thanks and it has been gelpfuk. Appreciate the offer but right now time is a bit short for me and I am really interested in getting some extra color from the forum contributors, particularly on my last questions.
Christy I've already had coaching thanks and it has been gelpfuk. Appreciate the offer but right now time is a bit short for me and I am really interested in getting some extra color from the forum contributors, particularly on my last questions.
Hi hoosjim,
I'm glad you founds the DB telephone coaching to be helpful. Please email me directly if you would like the article by Michele regarding telling the children.
Cristy
Hi Sandi, thanks again. My response to you kind if got pushed down the thread so hoping it didn't get list in the shuffle. Wanted to get your take based on the additional color I provided, above.
Also wanted to get ANYBODYs take on whether I should first talk to WW and insist on cutting ties or whether I should first confront the OM, my former friend and remind him of all the harm he's causing and see if I can talk sense to him.
Hi Sandi, thanks again. My response to you kind if got pushed down the thread so hoping it didn't get list in the shuffle. Wanted to get your take based on the additional color I provided, above.
Also wanted to get ANYBODYs take on whether I should first talk to WW and insist on cutting ties or whether I should first confront the OM, my former friend and remind him of all the harm he's causing and see if I can talk sense to him.
I don't remember, is he married? If so, then confronting him may end this A pronto, assuming he wants to keep his marriage/family. Getting out of infidelity is an absolute must before you can save a marriage. It's impossible to work on a marriage that has more than two people in it and right now, yours does.
Well, today's the day. Going to make my first attempt since discovering the affair to have a man-to-man, face-to-face talk with the OM (my former friend). I am leveled, centered, and icy-cool. Hopefully he be where he usually is on Friday afternoons and I can put this bogeyman to rest. It will be a big load off my mind and I am hoping it catapults me forward and maybe, just maybe, kick starts some movement resolving my marital problems (which have stagnated) one way or the other.
Also, still interested in any input anyone has on what/how to tell the kids once I have the "cut contact or get out" talk with my wife. Sandi had some potentially helpful insights, above, but I was wondering if she had or anyone else had any additional thoughts based on the additional color I provided yesterday (what is now at the top of page 5 of this thread).
Thanks all! Being on this forum really helps!
If you are not referring to what to tell the kids if you S or D...........what are you talking about? Telling them why she is not sleeping in the bedroom with you? If that is the case, why tell them anything other than there are problems in the M? These are young men, not little kids asking questions. I mean, when a couple of 17 & 18 yr old guys see their parents sleeping is separate rooms, they know something private is going on between their folks. If the issue is not resolved, then you can tell them more later, but be careful how much you disclose about their mother. Just knowing their mother is seeing another man, is strong information............plus, they will watch
you to see how a man deals with this type of situation in his M.
Are you saying that if she refuses to cut contact I should immediately lawyer up or otherwise get into a divorce-preparation stance? Separation not enough? Be interested in your take on all of this, particularly given the additional color on the A with the OM and how, if at all, that would affect how you approach telling the kids IF, as I suspect she will, she "chooses" the OM. (Alot stacked against me here, including that her best friend is also currently a wayward-- with multiple infidelities-- who runs in the same circle as the OM and who has a VERY outgoing personality and VERY jaded view on marriage and commitment.)
I "thought" I was giving an example of what to tell the kids if you and W was breaking up. I must have gotten lost somewhere, IDK.
I don't really see sleeping in separate beds as a "separation", per se, unless both spouses declare it as a separation. There have been couples to resolve issues while temporarily sleeping in separate beds. However, I have never seen in-house separation result in reconciliation from members on this board, or IRL. Never! It prolongs the agony for the LBH and he loses more dignity and respect while having his WW flaunt her A in his face. Living in separate houses has succeeded in saving some M's. However, she will probably continue seeing OM, or other men........which would happen if there was an in-house separation, too. The difference being.......you don't have to see it every day if physically separated. If her friend is a WW, too, she has a lot of bad influence. Unfortunately, time and consequences for her decisions will have to change her mind. As long as she can cake eat, she will not be motivated to change her ways. In-house separation is the epitome of a WW cake eating.
Before worrying about what to tell the kids, you need to decide if you will S or D (if WW does not
immediately stop contacting OM
and her wayward friend. There can be no futher "friendship" with the OM's family and your family.
If you have to tell OMW that there will be no future socializing b/c of her H........then so be it. But it won't necessarily save your MR. Sometimes, the other wife is the last to know and is trying to maintain the foursome friendship (even trying to get her H and you to make up, b/c she is unaware of the truth), and it can be a very sticky situation if things are not immediately severed. Very seldom do I recommend exposure of the A, however, when the two families are close friends........I believe it is often necessary to inform the other spouse, and in your case, that may also include your two sons. If OM is
involved in the lives of your sons, I would tell them that he is trying to break up the M.
I think it is a "man thing" to feel the need to talk to the OM about ending the A. If that's a shot to your ego to do it........so be it. When you consider that he is a dishonorable husband and friend, why expect him to do the honorable thing just b/c you approach him about an A with your W? You could threaten him, as some others have done in their situations..........but due to the friendship factor that existed, it could go very badly.
My thinking about talking to OM, exposing the A to his W, etc........is to not have the idea that they are going to do the hard & unpleasant work, instead of you having to enforce firm boundaries. In other words, whatever they decide to do, it will not "fix" your MR. It may end the A, IDK. It doesn't repair your MR, b/c there was something broken before she was involved in an A. I don't like the mindset some H's have about exposing the A, when they are too weak to enforce firm boundaries and want to rely on other people to
fix things by forcing the A to end. You can't just sit back and reap a successful relationship with your W when all you've done is tattle. Exposure has worked in ending A's for some, but others have experienced very unpleasant results. I do not recommend broadcasting the A to everyone, especially your family members (unless divorce) b/c if there is a future reconciliation, the exposure will cause bad feelings between your family and your W. It is not easy for the W or her in-laws to resume a relaxed and warm relationship, once they know about the A. So, once it's out there, it involves more people and you can't take it back after it's exposed. If you choose to expose, be sure is not an act of vindictiveness, b/c it might come back to bite you.
I feel my post is a disorganized attempt to answer some of your questions. For that, I apologize. I often use the word "you" as if speaking to a group, so please bear that in mind when reading.
You are having to take in a lot of information during an emotionally intense time. Make sure you understand before making any quick decisions.
Sandi, thanks, that is a lot of information. For further clarification, the OM is NOT married... he himself is a single divorcee, so there is no OMW to get involved (unless his adultering with my wife might somehow threaten the custody he currently has of his OWN kids-- Adultery IS still a crime where I live). Also, cutting contact with the best friend who is also a wayward (and currently separated) will be very sticky-- they are lifetime best friends and right now are pretty much self-reinforcing each other every step of the way. My best friend, who is the spouse of my wife's best friend (complicated, I know) has come over all completely zen and is like "I can't be controlling, she needs to explore herself, if she gets it figured out and its meant to be she'll come back" and completely "trusts" her (they are, as I said, fully separated) and makes no critique of her wayward lifestyle.
As to broadcasting the A, that is not my intent. I have intentionally kept that "in hous" so as to provide a safe path back for my W if she should at some point want that. I do, however, want to make sure she understands the impact her continuing behavior could/will have on the kids and her relationship with them.
As to talking to the OM-- yeah, he's a scuzz, but he was my friend at one point, and I feel like there is some baggage there in my closet that is hampering me and that I can clear some of it by "facing my fear" so to speak. I also do want him to know that I am not "giving up my marriage", that I expect him to stay away from my kids, and that, call it a threat if you will, if I can find some way to expose him without hurting my wife and kids (say, to his employer or the like) I will absolutely do so. And, yeah, I do want to sit there and look the SOB in the eye and see if he can do the same. Perhaps a little ego, but my ego/confidence has improved substantially in the past several weeks and I'd like to see it continue to do so. Beats the alternative. Finally, maybe, somewhere in the depths of her wayward mind, my wife might gain a little respect back for me knowing I faced him down. I don't necessarily see things going very badly, as you say... I don't plan to rant and rave and threaten the apocalypse.
I know thoughts on this board vary a bit WRT WW's, but i DO believe that if the A can end, for whatever reason, we might just have a shot in therapy (after the end of affair withdrawal ends).
Out of curiosity, you talk about never having seen an in-house separation fix things with a WW... What do you believe the odds are, generally, on getting a WW back into the fold? In my case, I don't particularly like mine... My wife is 48 soon to be 49 (though looks much younger) so the "nesting/reproductive/good husband instinct" is pretty much gone. Because of her looks, she will DEFINITELY find suitors easily, even if this current A ends, and her best friend, as I mentioned, is also wayward and a VERY strong influence on her. Not to mention the approximately 10 years of neglect I heaped on her that opened the door for this whole sad, ummm... "affair." Honestly, the only thing keeping her around at all right now, I am pretty sure, is her fear of losing the kids. Very afraid that the odds are extremely long here. With God, I know, all things are possible but... this would be one king-sized bible-worthy miracle, IMO, if it worked out and we reconciled.
What do you believe the odds are, generally, on getting a WW back into the fold? In my case, I don't particularly like mine...
If you will read my threads on WW's, you will see my answers to most of these questions.
Are you reading? I hope you haven't left.
Yes, Sandi, thanks. Your insights on WWs have been invaluable to me in understanding what is going on with my own wife, while at the same time admittedly being fairly disheartening. This seems to be such a difficult and painful/painstaking dynamic to overcome under the best of circumstances, and my circumstances are far from "best". In dact, with all the particular overlays in my case the odds seem very, very heavily stacked against me. So very hard... she was my first and only true love. Changed my life when I myself was a selfish, very wayward lifestyle young man. I trust God, but maybe he just has other plans for me than reconciliation with my wife.
Tonight will be both confrontation of OM, my former friend, where I will tell him in what low esteem I hold what he did, how it hurt and is hurting my family, and how it is hurting my wife. I will also let him know that unless and until I have divorce papers in hand i will continue to fight for my marriage and if I can find a way to expose him without hurting my wife, I will, and that he should back off as long as we are still married. And, finally, that he is never ever ever to have anything to do with my sons under ANY scenario, even marriage to my wife. Later, I plan to talk with my wife and give her the "cut contact or get out" ultimatum.
I reall appreciate you checking in on me. I'm kind of on an island here having kept mum about the A in order to protect my wife, so I've been carryin that burden all alone and can use all the support and prayers I can get.
I hope you don't mind if I ask, why is the reason you are keeping mum about the A to protect your wife?
Seems to be pretty close to consensus here that if your are hoping to reconcile you don't go telling EVERYONE about the A, as it makes for a very rough path hme,for the WW, and can lead to substantial family discord and unpleasantness if and when reconcilliation occurs.
Seems to be pretty close to consensus here that if your are hoping to reconcile you don't go telling EVERYONE about the A, as it makes for a very rough path hme,for the WW, and can lead to substantial family discord and unpleasantness if and when reconcilliation occurs.
You should rephrase that, however. You shouldn't be protecting HER from exposure of the A. It should be your choice not to expose it, but I would not go out of my way to protect her. Don't expose it, but if it comes out, it comes out. That's called a consequence to her actions.
If you chose not to expose it's for your sake, not to protect her.
I will also let him know that unless and until I have divorce papers in hand i will continue to fight for my marriage and if I can find a way to expose him without hurting my wife, I will, and that he should back off as long as we are still married.
Please don't tell the OM this ^^^^^^^^. He is not your friend, does not care how you feel, does not have your family or W's best interest at heart, and he is not an honorable man. Do not tell him that you plan to expose him!!!! That will defeat the purpose and tip your hand so that he can discredit you before you can make anyone believe what you say about him.
Jeeminy what a frustrating evening. Expecting to get some resolution and forward movement of some sort and shut out on both fronts. OM didn't show up at his usual watering hole, on a hockey playoff night, no less, where he can ALWAYS be found, so I was shut down there, and then W came home and went straight to sleep while I was working out, so no opportunity to have the "Cut contact or get out" convo with her. Gonna have to just call her at work tomorrow and say "hey, lets meet right after work so we can talk" (which I hate, because then she talks to the OM on her "cheater phone" and plans what to say-- rather have the talk unscripted.)
Sandi, so your comment raises an interesting question in me: Do you know of an particularly effective ways to expose a single OM who is cheating with your W? He has kids of his own from a previous marriage and adultery is still against the law where I live... could I put his custody at risk? (Somehow I doubt it since his first marriage ended from his infidelity yet he still got the kids.) Have him prosecuted for adultery? (This would implicate my wife, though, obviously.) Would love to stick it to the predator SOB somehow but not sure what my options are. I DO have pretty good proof...
Don't give her the heads up that you are going to talk. Then she won't be able to plan anything to say. Just wait for a moment when you together next and bring it up then.
Oh boy where to being.
First, you need to slow down and think logically. You want to bust this OM and get him legally in trouble for adultery and have his kids taken away from him, yet you want to protect your wife who is guilty of the same??
Well, say you do all of this. What if his wife or he himself turns around and does the same thing to your W? Your wife is very not innocent in all of this. She is just as guilty as her OM. You are all about protecting her to make the path smooth and paved for her to come home. You think exposing JUST him which is not possible without exposing her, by the way, and destroying his family is going to make that path nice and smooth? No, it's going to put boulders in it.
If you are going to expose this, you are exposing them both as they are both equally guilty parties. Just know that. Don't think you messing with his family is going to protect your family in any way shape or form.
I know you re fueled by anger right now. Rightfully so. But I would be smart about this if your goal is not to let what your wife did get out. because she is as guilty as he is.
And I know you want him to suffer. But I don't think it's fair to make his kids suffer. Taking their dad away from them so you could stick it to the SOB.
I am going to be brutally honest here and you may not be ready to hear it.
He isn't a predator. Your wife is grown woman who made her own choices and continues to do so.
Hi Ginger, really appreciate your input, and your points about collateral damage from exposing the A as well as about my own wife's culpability are well taken. However, you are completely wrong about this guy not being a predator. Not sure how much of my background you read, but Late last Summer/ early Fall I went to my then-friend about my marital troubles. While I had not experienced the dramatic awakening then that I have since DB,I HAD realized that things were not good... I just didn't know what to do. He (now the OM)used that information to make his move on my wife. He was methodical and intentional about it... Starting out by "accidentally" finding and friending her Facebook page while "looking for another person he knew named __________" (a blatant lie he knew no such person and my wife's name is pretty unique), proceeding to calling her to "get ahold of _____ (me) because he's not answering calls or texts" to inviting her out with us and then telling her she should get her girlfriends to come to that particular bar for their "girls nights" (which is exactly what happened). He was then in perfect position to be a sympathetic ear to her via text, phone, and socially, and shower her with the attention and such that he now knew she craved and which she was completely vulnerable to. He is a good talker, a funny guy, and would constantly be telling her "isn't it better talking to me and laughing thrown talking to your husband and crying", and using things I'd told him in confidence and/or twisting my words to make me look bad with her.
Lots if signs I should've seen in retrospect lije how he qas alqays ogling and commenting on married women, usuallyother sports team mom's but.. yeah... dud was most certainly a predator, even recognizing my wife's own culpability.
On exposure generally... is there no merit to throwing that out here as a threat to maybe make them think twice, even if you never go through with it?
I stand corrected, he is a predator of sorts. I guess my point being it is neither here nor there when it comes to your M. Your W made her choice, she is a grown woman. He is clearly not your friend and just a crappy person.
As far as exposure as a threat? Do you want to threaten your W back home, or do you want her to come home and recommit to the M because it's what she truly wants to do?
Re: my wife? The latter, without question. Re: the OM? I want him out of the picture however I can get him. Threats, no threats, act of God, whatever. Because no "recovery" from her waywardness and no "work" on us will happen (and obviously in that order) until he is out of the picture. IF she chooses to cut contact (more on this in next post) then I want as little outside disruption as possible. If I can get this clown to back off, maybe it incrementally improves our odds.
I know it's illegal, but have you considered kicking his a$$?
So, I actually DID manage to have the "cut contact" talk with W late last night. (She woke up from her sleep). Short sweet, to the point: "What I told you last week wasn't about making a final decision on "us", was about a decision by you on continuing contact with OM. I know what has ben going on, and I am not willing to live in an open marriage or indeed for you to continue to have any kind of contact with the OM while you are living under this roof. If yoy are hoing to stay i need you to cut all conract, and I need an answer by tomorrow (meaning today/Tuesday)." She said she understood but also stuck to party line that it was not an "A" and that contact had been getting less and less and was almost down to nothing. (Not true, at least as of laSt Thursday when she met him at bar.) I merely reiterated my stance that all contact had to stop.
So, today she has been very text-y. Somewhat more so than usual. No hint of any anger, etc. Texts nothing critical just "how is your conference going", "how is so and so doing", etc. I have responded "in kind", by being cordial but not any more wordy than she is being. Should I be being more standoffish, though? Don't want to be a jerk or anything, but want to keep an appropriate distance, too.
Also, how do I handle tonight if she "agrees" to my terms? I am inclined to ask for some transperancy (ie give up the cheater phone, exchange social media passwords, etc) as well as some assurances about where and when she will go out (obviously NOT to the OM's regular hangout- a potential problem since this is also her wayward best friend's favorite hangout). Also, not sure I can/will even tris her since she hasn't even fully acknowledged the A and has been VERY secretive all along. Should I be prepared to do a little snooping/monitoring (which I am capable of with fairly little risk)?
Also, if she tells me she wont cut contact, i think my path is clear: "okay, youre moving out of bedroom tonight and house asap... start thinking about what youre going to tell the kids because i am not going to lie for you." Beyond that, any tips on how to kick start her down the road to avoid any pasdive aggressive lingering in the household? Any other tips/thoughts for tonight's talk?
An interesting overlay will be her picking up her WW best friend at the airport tonight... whom I am sure will take the opportunity to trash me and tell her what a controlling loser I am.
Thanks, all!
Can you legally throw her out of the house?
Ginger, is that a serious question? Is there ever a "legal" basis to "kick her out of the house" in these situations? I can't imagine what such a basis would be, yet that is precisely what Sandi and the other WW gurus on this forum advise. I am assuming the hope is that the WW will elect to leave to avoid any ugliness, but... what if they dont? That is precisely my question. Would obtaining a lawyer (I am actually one myself though I don't do that sort of work) be the way to go? I am ready and willing to take this next step if she won't cut contact, but I want to be fully prepared so I can force the issue if need be.
What, exactly, are my options? (And, also, the continuing questions from my prior post about approaches and options for tonight's follow up conversation. )
Ginger, is that a serious question? Is there ever a "legal" basis to "kick her out of the house" in these situations? I can't imagine what such a basis would be, yet that is precisely what Sandi and the other WW gurus on this forum advise. I am assuming the hope is that the WW will elect to leave to avoid any ugliness, but... what if they dont? That is precisely my question. Would obtaining a lawyer (I am actually one myself though I don't do that sort of work) be the way to go? I am ready and willing to take this next step if she won't cut contact, but I want to be fully prepared so I can force the issue if need be.
What, exactly, are my options? (And, also, the continuing questions from my prior post about approaches and options for tonight's follow up conversation. )
It is a dead serious question. I've been on these boards a lot longer than my join date says. I've seen it all.
I am posting to you because I see the most common misunderstandings and reactions coming from you that are common to the jilted spouse. It was common to me too.
Sandi does not advise to kick her out of the house. If she is on that mortgage, you have no legal recourse.
I suggest you really read up on boundaries. Boundaries are something only you can control. You can't MAKE her do anything because you feel what she did is wrong. Even if it is actually dead wrong.
You can't force the issue unless in your state there is a law where if the spouse cheated even though the house is legally theirs you can kick them out.
So what if she says "I'm not going anywhere?" Sure, get a lawyer, but I would study up the law in your state. Your could also tell her to leave the MBR. But if she doesn't, then you need to be prepared to stay or leave because you can't force anything.
Everything you keep stating you want to do might feel good initially, but isn't going to accomplish much.
I keep following up with you, because when you had that get out/no contact convo, you did not have her possible responses planned out and what your boundaries were. You were just dying to get it off your chest.
The point is, think about what happens before you make demands you can't make her do.
Ginger thanks, but then what do I do? I have some leverage because she has not been exposed, but do I want to go there? What do sandi, et al, advise when you have no legal recourse to push them out of the house? ME leaving sounds like it would be completely counterproductivem
Slow down some. I can't keep up with your spinning mind.
I can't imagine what such a basis would be, yet that is precisely what Sandi and the other WW gurus on this forum advise. I am assuming the hope is that the WW will elect to leave to avoid any ugliness, but... what if they dont? That is precisely my question. Would obtaining a lawyer (I am actually one myself though I don't do that sort of work) be the way to go? I am ready and willing to take this next step if she won't cut contact, but I want to be fully prepared so I can force the issue if need be.
Just for clarification, I do tell the H he needs to be prepared at point of confrontation for a possible S/D. B/c of the WW's defiance, he has to expect more than just announce that he knows.....and it automatically ends the A Once he states his boundary of not being willing to live with a third party in the M.....if the WW still refuses to stop contacting OM and/or lies about her activity....then the H should carry through with physical separation (not in-house stuff).
Please don't tell the OM this ^^^^^^^^. He is not your friend, does not care how you feel, does not have your family or W's best interest at heart, and he is not an honorable man. Do not tell him that you plan to expose him!!!! That will defeat the purpose and tip your hand so that he can discredit you before you can make anyone believe what you say about him.
Sandi, so your comment raises an interesting question in me: Do you know of an particularly effective ways to expose a single OM who is cheating with your W? He has kids of his own from a previous marriage and adultery is still against the law where I live... could I put his custody at risk? (Somehow I doubt it since his first marriage ended from his infidelity yet he still got the kids.) Have him prosecuted for adultery? (This would implicate my wife, though, obviously.) Would love to stick it to the predator SOB somehow but not sure what my options are. I DO have pretty good proof...
I don't know how you could
effectively expose just the OM in the affair. He has to have a very good reason for someone not knowing about the affair, in order for him to give it up. If he's not married, then what would or who would he really not want knowing? I guess you could try to put the fear of God into him....if you could pull it off, but seriously, my suggestion is to seek legal advice about your options before you take any kind of action.
I've seen other H's who read something and jumped before he was grounded enough to know the full ramifications. We just can't possibly write everything for every scenario in one post. You are kind of bouncing from one bomb explosion scenario to the next explosion.....but do you have a
plan? Asking questions is great source of learning, just don't react until you feel you have learned enough information, b/c you are ultimately responsible for your decisions. For example, you had set up a time to talk to the OM to
warn him that you plan to expose him (which would not be wise to warn). For the future, don't give advanced notice to the enemy!
Maybe the extra reading has you feeling pumped and you are itching to verbally kick OM's a$$, but are you considering
negative possibilities? I mean it might go as smooth as silk, IDK. I just want you to think about some possibilities. Exactly how do you picture OM responding to what you have to say? This has more to do than just him taking your W, doesn't it? While your confidence is up, you are wanting to approach him b/c you've carried around something from the past. Do you see this as your "chance" to let him have a piece of your mind? Do you think he'll even let you finish what you start out to say? Do you expect him to apologize for betraying you; bow out of the affair; or be afraid of what you could do with the information? It's not like he hasn't thought about it.....since the two of you were close friends. He knows you pretty well, right? And now, WW is alerted that you know she's cheating, so naturally she's going to convey this to OM. He's prepped and waiting for you.
Don't expect OM to give up the affair b/c he owes it to you or b/c he is scared of you. He's had a long time to observe you with your W.....plus he knows the problems, so he figures he has you pegged. Anyway, my point is that you have to be the man at home, and it usually starts by taking back your pants from your WW. That's where the trouble started. If you don't have the courage to take back your pants, then you won't ever feel like the man in your M and over your family/home.....even if you exposed the affair.
In most of the cases I've read on exposure, the WW is furious at her H for exposing the OM. So, be ready to face her fury, big time. You'll live, but just expect it. The last thing you need to do is expose and then
apologize to your WW b/c you can't handle her wrath. Exposure doesn't just include just one person.
If you are seriously going to expose, you do it without any warning at all. There is a small window of time before they will hatch their lies and scheme around the exposure. If you warn them of your intentions, they will make sure nobody listens to what you say about them. See what I mean?
So, answer these questions. What do you really want to accomplish by exposing him? To whom do you want to expose the affair? Do you plan to cover up your WW's part in the affair? Once OM is exposed, so is your W. (I'm not saying to cover for her, just trying to pick your thoughts).
If you are out to ruin his public image/reputation, then always remember that he doesn't play fair and could go after
you in other ways than just getting your W. So, stop and think what it is you hope to gain by exposing him.
Again, I would check with legal advice. Don't make threats or promises you can't keep.
I'm not trying to break your confidence, and I'm not saying you should not expose the affair. I am saying to think beyond the confrontation with OM.
Thank you so much, Sandi, your insights really are invaluable. I have actually become much more contemplative about confronting the OM-- primarily, I think, it is something I need to do for myself and my confidence in myself. Walking into that bar where I used to hang out last night and where I knew I would be alone amongst "enemies" (That's now where my W hangs out with the OM and his friends) was one of the hardest/bravest (stupidest?
) things I have ever done. Would have been nice to have closed the book by talking to the OM, though. Honestly, the guy who posted earlier why don't I "kick his a$$" is something I have considered, though I am now much more centered and at peace than I used to be, and realize that doing that would only likely hurt everyone involved. At the end of the day, I think it may have been God's hand that had me not meet up with my nemesis yesterday... I remain convinced that He is playing a very big role in watching over and sheparding me as I go through all of this.. So maybe not even my place/time to confront OM.
On other fronts, do you think you could answer my questions about how to handle: 1) The move-out request if my W refuses to move out? Ginger raised some good points and, honestly, I am not sure how anyone ANYWHERE would ever have any legal leverage to remove a spouse from a marital abode unless a divorce decree had been granted or there was domestic violence involved. What DO you do if the WS refuses to leave the bedroom and/or the home? I THINK mine will probably comply but... you can never be to sure with waywards, I am finding. Do you just move aggressively to start D proceedings?
AND 2) If she AGREES to "cut contact"... how much do I trust and how much do I monitor/snoop. They have already become very proficient at hiding the A, but I do have some monitoring options available to me. As I posted earlier:
"Also, how do I handle tonight if she "agrees" to my terms? I am inclined to ask for some transparency (ie give up the cheater phone, exchange social media passwords, etc) as well as some assurances about where and when she will go out (obviously NOT to the OM's regular hangout- a potential problem since this is also her wayward best friend's favorite hangout). Also, not sure I can/will even trust her since she hasn't even fully acknowledged the A and has been VERY secretive all along. Should I be prepared to do a little snooping/monitoring (which I am capable of with fairly little risk)?
One real quick question and it's not to minimize your pain.
What are you doing for you? How are you becoming a husband only a fool would leave?
How are you GAL? Your post was almost all about her and OM.
At some point this has to be all about you & your kids. Believe me, the uncertainty of knowing what that means is - well, it $ucks.
But you will go nuts if this OM and your w occupy all of your thoughts.
BESIDES, I figure with as much pain as I've endured with this, the least I can do is get my emotional money's worth.
Somehow to make it transformative in a good way.
Make sense?
If adultery is not something you're willing to accept then you should put your foot down. That is a boundary. A HUGE one for married people. Don't rage but do be firm about your boundaries and your self-respect.
Hoos
you will get different advice from spouses who have OM/OWs in the situation.
Sometimes it is projection and sometimes it's just a black and white view and or not really reading your whole thread.
I find you to be very insightful about your role.
While I think affairs are wrong, they are not all alike. You have a DB coach and I would defer to their advice. I do NOT see your wife as the type to rush back into your arms and away from OMs
until if/when she believes your changes are real and will be lasting.
As you said, she's had 10 years of rejection from you and she did tell you, repeatedly, about her unmet
essential needs.
Your insight, your faith and commitment to working on this and doing your best to live by your vows will help you so much.
It can be a fine line between self respect and prideful ego. Make sure you know where it is before making your choices. Are you close to your parish priest?
How was forgiveness modeled in your childhood?
also I suggest you read Bluwaves thread. Her h had an open affair and and is working his a$$ off to reconcile.
But it took him 1-2 years to awaken and their m did not have the issues yours has.
Stay with this...it's the best approach I know of if saving the m is the goal, and I know it is.
((( )))
((( )))
25YM, thank you so much for the kind words of support and for the very insightful advice. And thank you for challenging my (pre)conceptions and ideas...it is helpful and I value that.
As for my GAL efforts, I am pretty satisfied with those, which is why I have not really posted asking for any advice. I have been working out ALOT, and, Even at 50, I am in the best shape physically I have been in since before I got married. I have also been focusing on my faith and have been attending a different church part-time because I have found it extremely inspirational and very supportive. By connecting with others and by reconnecting with a couple old friends (one of whom is my best friend, a former atheist, who only recently in the wake of his own separation found God) I have both broadened and strengthened my own faith. The only possible gap is spending "out time" with friends. The current OM was my only real "local" friend at the time of affair discovery. I have since reconnected with one or two older local friends, but neither are much into the going out and doing things mode. My best friend is within an hours drive and I travel down there about every third weekend to socialize and go out. About every other week we will have dinner out up here. I have also taken to going to a local establishment at the end of the days I work out of my home office where I sit on the deck, chat with folks, and finish my administrative tasks for the week. But I do not have a robust support network locally, as of right now.
As to my WW... I have alot of intel on this A, and I am confident that she is definitely "wayward" in just about every sense. In some ways doesn't seem at all like the girl I married. She fits the pattern and I am fairly comfortable in my thinking that she needs to experience the loss of the marital comfort zone, and me as husband, to perhaps start to jar her out of her fog. I know that the road back, if there is to be one, God willing, will be long and hard and will involve much, much more than ending this current A. However, I also know that we will not even be able to start down this road until this current A is at an end. I have been working on self and other DB steps, now, for three and a half months. I am no longer willing to abide an A under this roof. If the guy I am now had been here three and a half months ago, he would have said "this ends now or we end now", but, that guy was not here then. He is here now, though, and he can't stand the thought of much more time of having this A constantly in his face. (Did I mention that my W is REALLY bad at hiding things like this, even when she is trying?)
25YM, thank you so much for the kind words of support and for the very insightful advice. And thank you for challenging my (pre)conceptions and ideas...it is helpful and I value that.
As for my GAL efforts, I am pretty satisfied with those, which is why I have not really posted asking for any advice. I have been working out ALOT, and, Even at 50, I am in the best shape physically I have been in since before I got married. I have also been focusing on my faith and have been attending a different church part-time because I have found it extremely inspirational and very supportive. By connecting with others and by reconnecting with a couple old friends (one of whom is my best friend, a former atheist, who only recently in the wake of his own separation found God) I have both broadened and strengthened my own faith. The only possible gap is spending "out time" with friends.
The current OM was my only real "local" friend at the time of affair discovery.
he's a POS...speaks for itself...but yeah, I'd say you need some new friends... 
I have since reconnected with one or two older local friends, but neither are much into the going out and doing things mode. My best friend is within an hours drive and I travel down there about every third weekend to socialize and go out.
I'm just suggesting getting out of the comfort zone a bit b/c you can meet NEW people who don't know your sitch and that's more helpful than you may realize.
Joining something, taking a class, taking up a hobby, volunteering, coaching, auditioning, a language, travel on a trip you really want to take - I think that would feel great and it's such a statement for you IF it's something on your bucket list...
I have a long GAL list of what I did in Alaska...including the above and I learned to hunt big game, snow machine, cross country ski, and I got my pilot's license.
A bucket list of sorts, and I really did not want to surrender to the darkness there...
But I also confess that a few setbacks in my sitch this past 3 weeks, has stalled me. There are days I want to huddle and I'd eat ice cream if I had any in my frig but I just got back from my divorce "vacation" out west.
Point is, I know it can be hard. But I also know that we have to detach from the results of this ordeal and transform our lives or we will continue to feel this pain. And it can be searing at times.
I just don't know a way to Detach without GAL.
About every other week we will have dinner out up here. I have also taken to going to a local establishment at the end of the days I work out of my home office where I sit on the deck, chat with folks, and finish my administrative tasks for the week.
But I do not have a robust support network locally, as of right now.
are you in a small town? How close to a bigger area? Are you an introvert or extrovert or in between?
As to my WW... I have alot of intel on this A, and I am confident that she is definitely "wayward" in just about every sense.
Speaking for myself, I choose not to know anything unless it's related to finances. I don't want to stalk the OW on Facebook (I blocked my h) and I think it has spared me some pain. Why do you need the intel? Just curious.
I mean, if you are trying to make adultery the grounds for divorce, once you have SOME info, you don't need a lot of details...and if you are in a no fault state, what's the point? I'm asking b/c I would think you are not making this easier on yourself
but maybe you have a reason...In some ways doesn't seem at all like the girl I married. She fits the pattern and I am fairly comfortable in my thinking that she needs to experience the loss of the marital comfort zone, and me as husband, to perhaps start to jar her out of her fog.
At these times they are not themselves. Doesn't mean they'll snap out of it AND come back to the family even if they did wake up. But some do.
My DB coach would tell me to "keep the road home, paved and smooth", which is harder with Affairs but not impossible.
If the shame is too great, I think it sort of forces the wayward into committing more to the AP. Sandi mentioned that if her h had been righteous and attempted to shame her, she'd have filed for divorce.
Like your wife, she felt justified in the affair. (It's not as if it was a one night stand, and you already know why your w went that route).
My point is to avoid the black & white SHAME route b/c it ignores her reasoning and the marital history you know you guys have.
Your w once loved you deeply and was wounded badly, over time. I don't know that it's all gone at all.
I think it is covered by layers of rejection and dashed hopes. Stay with your program.
I don't see how it's hurting the situation but I know that we all have our limits. In my mind, 3.5 months is a blink, but that's me.
I know that the road back, if there is to be one, God willing, will be long and hard and will involve much, much more than ending this current A.
However, I also know that we
will not even be able to start down this road until this current A is at an end.
I hear that ^^ a lot. And I'm curious too. If the OM is fulfilling her unmet needs and talking in her love language, why would she end the affair? This is not to hurt you but to understand the reasoning behind such a statement.
MY DB coach said "To an extent ALL MLCers and waywards cake eat a bit."
That's the LBSer making every effort to help the marriage heal. And respect matters a lot. As you know, your w's affair did not happen in a vacuum. So, good on you for the working out. You can compliment her appearance and IF given the chance, flirt (ask your DB coach about this. I found my coaches advice to be specific and detailed and incredibly helpful. Mine was a Godsend). I have been working on self and other DB steps, now, for three and a half months. I am no longer willing to abide an A under this roof. If the guy I am now had been here three and a half months ago, he would have said "this ends now or we end now", but, that guy was not here then.
He is here now, though, and he can't stand the thought of much more time of having this A constantly in his face. (Did I mention that my W is REALLY bad at hiding things like this, even when she is trying?)
my h posts on FB about his OW "meeting the family" (not our kids) and how HAPPY he is now...
it $ucks. A 35year m and he announced 3 days after he left that "w and I have parted ways"...
WTF? So I hear you. I blocked the fb and am amazed at the idiocy. Mutual friends are horrified and I don't think h will ever be viewed in the same way...
Again I suggest you read Bluwave's thread...
I get what you are saying, truly I do.
I wouldn't tell your WW what you will do if she doesn't comply with your demand she leave the MBR or house. Talk is weak, actions are strong. You lay out your boundary "all contact with OM must stop as of now". If she doesn't you take action like just throw her stuff into another room and put a lock on the MBR door. Explain to her that you will not facilitate the A by paying for her devices she uses to communicate with OM then cut her off the phone service. She's a big girl she can get her own phone. You may want to think about separating finances to protect yourself. Your money if for the family and if she is in an A then she is not in your family. These are actions that you can control. You are not controlling her. She can do what she wants. But you are creating boundaries that she can willfully comply with or not. If she chooses to not comply you have to take an ACTION or the boundary and any other ones are a waste of time. So before laying out your boundaries think of the ACTION you will take if she doesn't comply. You only tell her the boundary not the ACTION you will take. If she says something like "and if I don't?" Just say "bad choices have consequences". Being too wordy if weak. Remember ACTIONS are strong, words are weak.
While I think affairs are wrong, they are not all alike.
Not to highjack or anything, but what do you mean by this, 25?
While I think affairs are wrong, they are not all alike.
Not to highjack or anything, but what do you mean by this, 25?
I'll find your thread soon and expound on this^^. Here, I will just say IMO - context matters.
Ignoring context means all is black and white, so most LBSers with a spouse who is in an A, should just file for Div & that's that.
To be clear, No I am not a cheater, and No I am not "defending" affairs.
Let me try to put it this way.......if you suddenly do a particular action just b/c of a post you read, and then come back and say, "what now".........that's not what I see as a thought-out plan. That is how a H gets himself in a bigger mess and farther from his goal of busting a divorce. You seem mighty anxious to
kick her out of the house, and yet.....have you sought legal advice?
To develop a plan, you need to know yourself well enough to realize what you will tolerate and what you won't. You need to know what is the most important thing you want in a MR. What do you need as a man, etc. You learn from MWD, the board, etc., and consider the positive & negative results to certain actions in your situation. And, if experienced people are telling you that particular actions do not work.......
listen to them. Also, realize things may appear to get worse before you can see the final results. For example, it
may take a period of living in separate houses before the MR can be reconciled successfully. (That's only an example of the point I'm making). But you have
just told her that you are not willing to live in an open M (last night or the night before). Right? Isn't that all that's been said, or did I miss something? If nothing more has been said, do you not want to wait a few days to see if she attempts to end contact with OM? It would give you time to check out your legal options, and to gain more information as to what to expect. Timing is everything!
my questions about how to handle: 1) The move-out request if my W refuses to move out?
If you have set a boundary of no form of contact with OM, and she ignores it......what can you do then? Do you know your legal rights? Is her name on the deed, etc? That's what you need to find out. There used to be a lot of stories of how men kicked out their WW,.....and there were a couple of WW's that refused to be kicked out. Don't threaten or promise anything you can't deliver.
When/if you approach this subject of her leaving the house, then calmly tell her if she is not going to respect the MR, then she should find another place to stay. Do not argue about it. If she blows ups, let her blow. Don't go into long explanations. If she out & out refuses to leave, then start from that point by acting as if you are separated (whether she physically moves out or not). Sure, you can pack up her things and leave in the garage, or whatever, but if the law says you can't
force her out against her will......then I think you need to leave her things alone. When checking the laws, find out how it would affect you in a divorce if you were the one who left the marital home. Some places see it as abandonment by the husband/father. Know where you stand
legally, before trying to take drastic steps.
AND 2) If she AGREES to "cut contact"... how much do I trust and how much do I monitor/snoop. They have already become very proficient at hiding the A, but I do have some monitoring options available to me. As I posted earlier:
You can't trust her! You especially cannot believe something just b/c she says it. She did not value the trust you gave her the first time, and she betrayed you. She will have to
earn your trust the second time around. That is why transparency and accountability is needed. Transparency is also to help
her as she goes through the period of withdrawals. We can discuss it more, later.
"Also, how do I handle tonight if she "agrees" to my terms?
? You have no plan and are asking what to do at every turn. I don't think you are digesting everything correctly. You are about to charge into something you have no clue as how to handle it. How many times have we said to slow down and take time to learn about this process? Once you charge off into it......how will you know what to do or say next?
Your boundary statement to your WW: "I am not willing to live in an open marriage or indeed for you to continue to have any kind of contact with the OM while you are living under this roof".
Your terms stated to your WW: "If yoy are hoing to stay i need you to cut all conract, and I need an answer by tomorrow (meaning today/Tuesday)."
Immediate issue: "She said she understood but also stuck to party line that it was not an "A" and that contact had been getting less and less and was almost down to nothing".
Look again at her response. She is denying it's an affair and tries to brush it off by saying contact was getting less & less. She is lying and will try to claim "he's just a friend", if you bring up the word "affair". Do not argue with her at this time that it is an affair. If we have a friendship with male or female that makes our spouse feel uncomfortable, threatened, or seen as inappropriate........wouldn't the logical answer be to choose the
marriage relationship over a
friend relationship? The day the choice is to pick a friend over your own spouse.....is the day the M is basically over. Who gives up their spouse to keep a friend? However, WW will often make a strong stand on the whole friend debate, and accuse the H of
controlling. So.......beware.
Do not fall for her accusations of you controlling. This is about her cheating, lies, and betrayal. Do not fall for guilt she may try to lay at your feet. BTW, do not give her a deadline as to her making any decision, b/c she will wait till the last minute and then claim she doesn't know what she wants.
Btrow
You have a DB coach. What are they telling you?
And can you answer some of the questions I asked you?
Also, I'm not sure you can "kick" her out of a room or the house. I don't know what state you are in, or what you think the law says.
You are spinning. It's not helpful.
STOP AND SLOW DOWN. Take in what we are telling you.
You can do this, but you need to process a lot more of what we are saying...
Sandi thanks. I do appreciate your "tough love" with me.
I guess I have technically achieved "no contact." She says she got rid of the extra "straight talk" phone, will no longer go to the bar where OM hangs out, will not "seek out" contact, and has told him she cant talk to him because she needs to find out where "she needs to be." She took the lock off her phone but is a little waffle-y about FB password ("Im not sure I remember it") She also downplayed the A to "friendship" and "flirting" (lies, It was pretty explicit flirting based on overheard phonecall that made me 90-95% sure they were physical... if not, they were explicitly describing HOW they were going to be physical with each other, and she spent the night with him at least once though not clear they had sex). She is surly about it, saying she is just going to "sit around the house now" like the "good little wife". She did show a wee bit of remorse, acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and hurtful and a mistake, but says she honestly does not know how "it happened" (i.e. not a conscious choice on her part)and she did not show the type of remorse that has been described as showing she is "over it". She is also still resentful and has "trust issues" with me because i bugged her car once with an extra cell phone about two weeks in to all this (early February--guilty as charged) and got caught, though she does allow she "probably deserved it." She spent alot of time on the phone with her wayward best friend before talking to me... dont know what went on with that, though presumably nothing good for me.
Unfortunately, I got sucked down the rabbit hole on a couple of topics: 1) How and what to tell the kids if we split (she is already thinking about this-- and she definitely doesn't want to have any blame on her even if she ends up with OM eventually) and 2) Our own MR and what we are going to do to address it. She says she still doesn't have romantic feelings for me (no surprise, she was on the phone less than a week ago giving the OM oral sex tips) and can't even see us "going out and having fun or doing the flirty things she can see herself doing on a "date". Doesn't see herself ever having that spark with me but is willing to try MC and is somewhat eager to get started. Doesn't seem at all troubled at the idea of doing it as a "box checking" exercise. I, of course, would love to get to counselling... eventually, but not now. She clearly is not disposed to try to save the marriage and no WAY is she over the A at this point. My game plan had been to sort of lay low, detach, distance, let her grieve the end of the A (if she sticks to her word), and then play the "distance/pursuit" game and follow the 37 rules colored by "Georgia Bulldog's" addenda concerning the "NC" phase for waywards. Keep re-evaluating and hope she started showing signs of true remorse and/or interest in saving marriage. Not sure how I will deflect the counselling request. I left it tonight as "I wanted to clear the air on this one issue tonight, we can talk about the rest in a few days... I think it's too soon.
Ask yourself this question. Why would a wife not share a password with her H?
I think the wayward friend will be the liaison for the affair partners. Not sure what you can do about it. I don't suggest you try to pressure her to end the BFF right now. One step at a time.
Yes, your W is resentful. No, she is not remorseful yet. She got caught! That's all.
There's one thing to observe that will pretty much tell the true story. Her attitude. She may be able to act as if she's going along with your wishes for a few days, but her resentment will begin to seep through her attitude. She will have to tackle her resentment, eventually. If you get an experienced therapist, hopefully this will be dealt with and she'll have guidance out of resenting things of the past.
When her words, attitude, and actions line up together..........then that is a good sign she is making honest effort.
She is also still resentful and has "trust issues" with me because i bugged her car once with an extra cell phone about two weeks in to all this (early February--guilty as charged) and got caught, though she does allow she "probably deserved it."
Look, this is a WW tactic to twist and turn the "trust issue" around on the H. Get this straight.........you do nothing to earn a cheater's trust when they discover they have been caught. This has nothing to do about her trusting
you. It has everything to do about
her untrustworthiness. She may try to talk about not being able to trust you........or not having her own privacy, etc., in order to turn the spotlight away from her and shine it on you. Do not let her play those games. Keep your head straight about these issues.
She did show a wee bit of remorse, acknowledging that what she had done was wrong and hurtful and a mistake, but says she honestly does not know how "it happened" (i.e. not a conscious choice on her part)and she did not show the type of remorse that has been described as showing she is "over it".
First of all, she has not had time to get over it. She just got busted. Her answer is typical of a busted WW. However, I do not see affairs as making a mistake and not knowing how it happened. She
knew! That's just her way of trying to get out of trouble by giving a childlike excuse. As if she thinks you will hug her and say it's okay and everyone makes mistakes. She would like that type of response from you, b/c she would feel like it lets her off the hook.
Remember, baby steps the next few days. Expect her to have a lot of questions regarding separation/divorce. What to tell the kids, who lives where, etc. She will be trying to weigh her options, instead of focusing on ending the A. So.........don't go down that rabbit hole again. Just tell her that is not the immediate issue. Her faithfulness is the current issue. All that other will be the results of her unwillingness to do the right thing to save the M.
Thanks again, Sandi. That's exactly what I was thinking about her wayward BFF, who has been an enabler for alot of this-- "nights out" with her have been cover for W to take "side trips" to see the OM on more than one occasion.
Right now just going to have to ride it out for a bit. Try to avoid any in depth MR discussions. She WAS pretty disturbed by the idea of the kids "knowing the truth". She was like "Even if I didn't agree to cut contact and said I was going to continue contact with OM and ultimately went off with him, why would you ever want kids to know anything more than that you and I were unhappy and agreed to split up... anything else would just be to hurt me and them. I would think you'd want everyone to be happy." I deflected this by saying we weren't talking about splitting up and telling the kids right now, but I was curious if, even though I did not intend to go around exposing her to anyone, she expected me to lie to cover for her if asked. She sort of had a noncommittal answer about that, but I was able to move the conversation past that issue. For now, it's not an issue because we are not splitting, but I do want the thoughts of deceiving her children in her head, even as I don't necessarily want her thinking I am trying to shame her in to coming back.
Day 1 post "no contact": W home early from work. Very mopey. Went to bed early... in guest room bed. This in and of itself is not HIGHLY unusual, as we have a pretty bad/old mattress in MBR and she/we will sometimes sleep in guest BR (one of the overlays we should have taken care of a long time ago and still have not) but... she has been in there now three of last four nights. Although, last night, the night when I insisted on her consent to NC, she did sleep in our bed. Definitely mopey this evening, though.
I am wanting to fine-tune how I play this in the short term in terms of interacting with her. Obviously, she is going to be mopey and possibly/probably resentful, especially with wayward BFF undoubtedly bending her ear about what a wretch I am. One of our biggest, in fact probably the biggest problem plaguing our marriage was my neglect of her... on just about every level. Now, she is "cutting contact" supposedly and moping with her wayward thoughts. How much should I be hanging around and available, and how much should I be making myself scarce. Normally, my MO would be working out at gym two out of every three evenings for approximately an hour, and meeting friends out at least once a week (and every 2-3 weekends going overnight to visit friends in nearby town.) Do I want to continue to be that "scarce" while she is in the early processing stages, or do I want to be a little more available without being clingy/creepy. I had read GA Bulldog's take on Sandi's 37 rules where he opined that where WWs are in this stage it might actually be a good idea to not just abandon them to their own devices all the time. My plan has been to continue to be "detached" but not cold-- somewhat responsive if/when she seeks me out, but also to continue with my own GAL efforts (though I was going to forego leaving town for a couple of weekends.) I had not been thinking of doing anything radically different during this stage-- sort of see how she does and observe.
There is a lot of distance between us right now. You can tell it is not just lack of warm/romantic feelings but probably actually some repulsed/negative/resentful feelings, even though she says not. And i probably deserve a bit of that (even as i most definitely do NOT deserve to have her cheat on me)... there was a lot of neglect on my part... a LOT. The environment we are in in our part of the country is not helping, either. Suburban, high achievement culture... a LOT of divorce. Pretty much every single couple we know with whom she is close friends with the wife is either separated or in the process of doing so or in definite, obvious, and acknowledged trouble and headed that way. She and BFF's philosophy on long-term marriage definitely very jaded right now. Hope God wants this to work out for us, because it's gonna take a biblical-sized miracle, IMHO.
Hoos
any chance she'd be willing to go to Retrovaille? (are you familiar with it?)
Though she may think it's worthless and express no interest, IMHO, getting her there is the goal.
I don't think you can spend the whole weekend there and listen, and do the "homework" and get nothing out of it.
Even if she thinks it's just to make things easier on the kids. I'm not saying to be dishonest but I am saying to consider just getting you guys there.
They will talk to each of you privately about ending A's before going. You do not have to bring it up.
In fact, I would not. Lessen the pressure as it relates to Retrovaille.
Yes, I know my m is ending now. And it $ucks. I have a million challenges there.
But I can still say Retrovaille was a very good experience for us. It was the most I saw my h "getting it" and frankly, it was his breakthrough there that played a huge role in keeping me in the m the past decade.
Just an idea.
For you as an individual, try looking up "Essential Experience" in Philadelphia. There's a website. See what you think.
Though it's not for couples specifically, it always helps the r's in your life b/c it's a profound personal growth workshop. And I think it' s crucial we work on our own issues apart from the marriage
even though the m is affected by our "stuff". It's also "experiential" so you will not sit there in a lecture mode and rehearse or edit your responses.
You will discover things about yourself and, best of all, leave with an action plan.
Hang in there.
Thanks, 25yrs.
Retrouvaille sounds like a neat program, but not sure if it is what we need right now. Seems pretty communication-oriented... which was a problem for us, but not the main problem. Also don't know if she wants a religious-sponsored program because she doesn't like any "you need to stay together because the bible says so" or "because it is the right thing to do" type-stuff.
Also, in general, I am not certain that we are "therapy ready" right now. Isn't therapy more appropriate for when you reach the "piecing" stage? Right now, she is fresh off an affair, sulking about it (and, quite honestly, probably still maintaining contact with the OM) and completely convinced that she and I have NO FUTURE together. Our last talk pretty much confirmed that, while she was open to counselling, it wasn't to "try to save the marriage" but to determine "whether or not she even wanted to try to save the marriage"... more of a box-checking exercise before she says "soyonara."
Having a really bad day, today, FWIW. Alot of despair, don't see alot of hope for us. God shows me the way forward, though, with or without her, and I will do whatever needs to be done. So, so hard, though. Wish I could hate her... would make it a lot easier.
Thanks, 25yrs.
Retrouvaille sounds like a neat program, but not sure if it is what we need right now. Seems pretty communication-oriented... which was a problem for us, but not the main problem. Also don't know if she wants a religious-sponsored program because she doesn't like any "you need to stay together because the bible says so" or "because it is the right thing to do" type-stuff.
Um, not sure why you think it's that way but it was not our experience at all. My h was agnostic and is now atheist. Never Catholic & never wanted to be. The Retrovaille we attended in the LA area, was NOT pushy about any doctrine. I called ahead.
There were 4 "Team" couples who spoke to us about their experiences and they had major issues (the death of a child, for instance) and we learned from them and the exercises. After hearing of their m's being repaired, I recall thinking h & I had nothing that big to work on, comparatively.
I saw a retired priest in the background who led prayers a few times, but it was so NOT about "making you stay together b/c the bible tells you so."
I hear this talk a lot from those who resist going. Not saying you are, but it's Just an observation. Maybe someone has had a bad theological experience there, but I have not known of one from an actual attendee.
Also, in general, I am not certain that we are "therapy ready" right now. Isn't therapy more appropriate for when you reach the "piecing" stage?
IMO Therapy is mandatory in piecing - and preferably earlier.
Before you can do any recon to get to piecing, T helps in figuring out why one would engage in an affair - or play your role - & I cannot see any reason to avoid getting some therapy.
What's the risk to you? I'm not saying marriage counseling, I'm saying individual therapy for you and or, her. If she's not willing, so be it. What's stopping you?
- Our last talk pretty much confirmed that, while she was open to counselling, it wasn't to "try to save the marriage" but to determine "whether or not she even wanted to try to save the marriage"... more of a box-checking exercise before she says "soyonara."
Retrovaille or you getting ind therapy are not going to end your marriage.
Having a really bad day, today, FWIW.
sorry you are having a bad day. Have you tried "insight timer"? it's a free meditation app that has gotten me off the ledge a few times.
Hang in there.
She was like "Even if I didn't agree to cut contact and said I was going to continue contact with OM and ultimately went off with him, why would you ever want kids to know anything more than that you and I were unhappy and agreed to split up... anything else would just be to hurt me and them. I would think you'd want everyone to be happy."
Why would everyone be happy that their family has been split apart?
deflected this by saying we weren't talking about splitting up and telling the kids right now, but I was curious if, even though I did not intend to go around exposing her to anyone, she expected me to lie to cover for her if asked.
If this comes up again, I would say something like, "I am not going to lie to my children in order to cover your infidelity, or why you chose to leave the M for another man".
I don't necessarily want her thinking I am trying to shame her in to coming back.
She has had her first taste of reality. It is just hitting her that her adultery might be revealed to her sons. She stupidly thought the man she betrayed would lie to his sons to cover her sins, and act as if everyone is one big happy family.
Don't get confused here. You don't stoop to lying to cover up a cheater's actions. The only reason you would tell your sons about her infidelity would be b/c she leaves to be with OM. If that happens, it affects their lives, too. You would not be shaming her to get her back. Iif she chooses the OM, it would be the results. Just as divorce would be the results.
Instead of her wondering if you will forgive her and allow her to gain back your trust, she is feeling out the situation to see what you will do if she refuses to end contact with the OM. That's common for a WW.
What she said^^
And of course you don't want her to believe you are shaming her home. That would obviously fail anyhow.
But that's not the same as covering for her lies.
There's a difference.
PS
when I did consider having an A 20+ years ago, (I justified it for several reasons beyond the scope of the point I want to make.)
The image of my h and children crying and knowing I was ending the m - let alone for OM, killed me.
I changed course, met with a chaplain and saw a shrink and talked to MY closest loved ones ...
And avoided the A.
If h had found out how close I had come and had tried to shame me, I would probably have left him.
Note at the time I felt justified in (nearly) having an A.
But the image of my children feeling sad or visualizing my h being sad (I was very much in love with him but very lonely)
those images stopped me.
So the shame tactic would have ended the marriage,
whereas the idea of my h/kids seeing me as the type of woman to have an A, stopped the A from happening.
Thanks, Sandi. That is pretty much in line with my own thinking. Of course, her take on this is and will be that "we were already effectively done, my feelings for you were already gone, and we would be splitting up anyway with or without the OM. HE is not the reason we are splitting up." There is SOME truth to that, or at least some potential truth. We were definitely already headed in that direction before the A cropped up and, without the A cropping up, it is questionable if I would've been shocked into the changes that make me at least arguably the kind of man that she could stand to be with. Nonetheless, it seems pretty clear that WITHOUT the A, we would have a much, much better and more focused chance at reconciling. (But, as I said, she doesn't see it that way and thinks she can "separate the two" in her head.)
Not agreeing with her (completely), Just sayin'...
Hi Hoosjim
You W sound like me, she convinced herself that she was doing no wrong and we were having a amicable split, instead of her running off with OM.
It's also like they can't match their behaviour with their own moral or values so have to write a story in their mind to make them feel better about what they are doing.
Have strong firm boundaries, don't agree to tell the story her way. She need to see the consequences of her actions, she is in a dream world at the moment, where she can leave you to be with OM and she has done nothing wrong.
Above all do not trust her, she is like an addict, OM is her drug! The only way this changes is if she suffer some form of loss and consequences to her actions.
Send strength and a big hug
Well, hmmm... She went to bed in the guest room again tonight. That's four of the last five nights, though the night of the "NC commitment" she slept in same bed. So, SHE is the one doing the distancing. How the heck am I supposed to distance when she is already distancing in the house/sleeping arrangements about as much as possible. Guess I just play it cool? Act like I don't notice? Detach and go about my business?
Kind of funny that I told her she had to cut contact OR get out, and she appears to have done BOTH.
What a lot of people forget to tell you is if you don't do the 180 correctly then you're actually doing your WW a favor. If she wants nothing to do with you then you staying away from her is exactly what she wants. You have to add in GAL activities and move on. Start having an awesome life without her and let her see you doing it. Don't fake it. Do it.
Well, that (no contact) didn't last long. She drove by the OM's fave hangout today (dead end, mostly abandoned strip mall, no other reason to go there) but didn't go in. Wondered why we she was going out, checked family locator on cell phone plan. Sounds from many stories here as if this is not uncommon. How long so you let cintact attempts
Well, that (no contact) didn't last long. She drove by the OM's fave hangout today (dead end, mostly abandoned strip mall, no other reason to go there) but didn't go in. Wondered why we she was going out, checked family locator on cell phone plan. Sounds from many stories here as if this is not uncommon. How long do you let contact attempts (or actual contact) to continue before lowering the boom. Assuming she didn't call or dm the guy in advance and just drive by to see if he qas there (why else drive through parking lot?) Seems like withdrawal pains...
Well, hmmm... She went to bed in the guest room again tonight. That's four of the last five nights, though the night of the "NC commitment" she slept in same bed. So, SHE is the one doing the distancing. How the heck am I supposed to distance when she is already distancing in the house/sleeping arrangements about as much as possible. Guess I just play it cool? Act like I don't notice? Detach and go about my business?
So, how's your plan coming along?
I did NOT expect her to "agree" AND to start sleeping separately. Benefit of doubt a bit on her back, which she DOES have problems with, but... the coincidence is a bit much. She also had dinner/drinks with wayward BFF until fairly late Saturday (got home 1230) at distant locale. I don't THINK OM was there but i DO think BFF is serving as some sort of liaison, AS ARE a couple of girls at my W's office, who are pretty clearly covering for her. It's discouraging. Almost like the whole world is against me up here and wants my W and OM to get together. AND I'M BOTH A REALLY GOOD AND (blessed to be) a PRETTY GOOD-LOOKING GUY (especially for my age.) You'd think I'd publicly beaten her or something...
Then again, she went by his bar... but didn't go in. Which seems to indicate she is either a) not in direct contact with him or b) chickened out.
She is still clearly mopey.
My "plan" was to "put her out" if she refused to cut contact. If she continues to keep in contact and I KNOW it or can SHOW it my plan is also to "put her out" (to the extent I can-- don't think there's any legal recourse but I think she will cooperate given what I know and what she doesn't want known-- dont even think i would have to make the threat.) If she doesn't and I cant force it (house is co-owned) I will separate as much as possible and push forward with D filing if necessary. I have established as another "boundary" that I wont lie to the kids, so she knows she has that risk she is incurring if she continues. OTOH, if she makes a good faith effort to cut contact, my intent had been to try some counselling with a pro-marriage counselor I had found who I like very much. Keep DB-ing. In the short term, I had been going to give her a week to adjust and see how the cutting contact went. Tomorrow I am going to press her on the internet/email/social-media passwords. She is still doing a LOT of FB-ing and FB-messaging.
My major conundrum continues to be, though, how I'd reconcile the 180s and detaching with the NC-stage closeness and (if I do it as SEVERAL experienced folks have advised) MC. If she is TRULY trying to be true to the "NC" promise (and right now doesn't yet seem so), do I continue detaching and GAL-ing on my own and playing hard to get, or do I need to focus on being around. She never got and still hasn't gotten to a spot where I "interest" her, even IF she has committed to No Contact. At this stage, what's my best play to draw her interest. My assumption (and my plan) is that I should continue GAL-ing and detaching and distancing as much as possible (without being a jerk) until I see some signs of true remorse, etc. If that is my plan, though, and I think it is, how do I work the MC into that... because several knowledgeable/experienced folks have indicated to me that now might be a good time to try a little counselling.
Well, this is interesting. One week in to "no contact." Cant say for 100% she is maintaining "NC" (I still don't have FB password and, even if I did, there are about 10000 other ways the OM can contact her, particularly on work phone at work and via my W's BFF as a liaison) but she is at least not overtly trying to see the OM. She DID drive by "his" hangout bar on Sunday around midday (it is in a closed/closing strip mall with no other reason to drive in there) but did not go in, so she is/was either not in direct contact with him or else chickened out. She IS somewhat mopey towards me... going to bed extra early, and in the guest room, not the MBR (though she does have back probs and our MBR mattress stinks and that is at least the excuse she is using) and NOT initiating texts to me during the day, which she has almost always done. She is not acting/talking openly hostile towards me, however, though I know from having known her so long that she can easily suppress/internalize negative feelings sometimes and "carry on" as if she is not mad, only letting out that she is when you start a conversation and ask. The most puzzling thing is that she has become MORE active around the house. After BD in January, i had started picking up alot more of the slack around the house (NOT "super husband" or gay butler kind of stuff, just picking up the slack in areas where I had NOT been previously holding up my end... and the house showed it-- I am now at a place where I don't LIKE living in a chaotic/messy house and have gotten the kids to pick up some more of the slack too), but in the past week she has started doing some of the things I had been doing chore-wise. Also, cooking more for the family, etc. All the while still maintaining her distance with the sleeping arrangements. Can't find any examples or case studies like this on the boards or elsewhere. Seems like if she was really mope-y, she should be just sitting around neglecting everything. Certainly not amping up the homemaking. Anyone else ever seen a confronted/busted wayward do this kind of thing?
My plan for now is to keep D-B-ing. Not sure we can yet have any detailed R talks because pretty sure she is not close to "over" the OM, and because I am not sure I trust her, yet. Going to bring up the internet/email/Social media passwords again tonight under the veil of transparency and "why WOULDN't spouses, especially ones trying to rebuild trust, share those?" Still keeping with my GAL-ing... working out regularly outside of the house approx 4 times per week, going out on my own or with friends once. Thinking about adding a class or classes to start learning horses (riding, care, etc.) since I have kind of always wanted to and now think, split or not, that once the kids are out of the house I am going to want to move out of the city and get a bit of land with a horse or two. (Added bonus is that this is something she is interested in, too.) At any rate, wondering if everyone thinks the detachment and "being scarce" bit is still the right play at this point, or if I should be striving to be "around" and "available" a bit more, now, assuming "NC" with the OM and given her demeanor. Invite her out for a "no relationship talk" drink at some point-- no pressure, just blow off some steam?
Also, any other thoughts on moving us into MC? She has no interest in individual therapy (even though I think it would help) but has on a couple of occasions indicated possible receptiveness to Couples counselling (even as she has explicitly said she has no problem doing so as a "box checking" exercise and would be looking at it more as a tool to find out "IF she wanted to try to save the marriage" or "IF she thought it would be possible for her to be happy in the marriage" rather than as a tool to actively and definitively "try to save the marriage." My inclination, based on my "gut", prayer, and the recommendation of some both on this forum and elsewhere (particularly from the Marriage Counselor I trust and whom I intend to go see if we do that) is to try to get her to counselling, absent some compelling argument not to.
As always, thanks to all for all the support here, and all thoughts are warmly appreciated.
Slight update. I had been going to to talk to her about internet "transparency" as well as possibly MC (she had mentioned this in our last talk) last night, but she went up to bed early, again. And in the guest bed, again. I went in and asked if she was still awake and she kind of mumbled "no." So I just said, "Okay, try to get some sleep, goodnight" (she hasn't been sleeping very well.) As I walked out, she kind of perked up a little and said "did you want to talk about something?" and I said "no, it can wait until tomorrow". At which point, she asked again but I again put it off. So, today, after she leaves for work, she calls me from the car five minutes into her drive (she hasn't called me from car for a few days, now, not since we had the "NC" talk), has some nice small talk, and asks again what I wanted to talk to her about last night. I gently put it off again, saying we could talk tonight, that it was nothin "bad", and that I wanted to talk to her face to face and while she was awake. She was a little pout-y about that in kind of joking way, saying "well, if you don't want to talk I guess I'll just have to watch all the cars go by and cutting me off while I'm trying to get to work." So we talked for a couple of more minutes and then I broke it off "so I could finish getting ready." A little more background here is that her AM and PM drives HAD BEEN her primary contact times with the OM, where she had long-ish talks with him, including some very flirty and even explicit stuff, and during which he made her "laugh alot" (He IS a very funny guy.) She is not currently getting those conversations with him.
I am NOT taking the above as any kind of positive sign. I just find it interesting that she is so interested/eager to find out what I wanted to talk to her about. In the past, and through this whole process, she has typically dreaded MR talks with me (and has told me so: "Oh, here he comes again, what is it going to be this time?"
My plan, unless someone talks me off the ledge, is to bring up both of these topics tonight or, if the situation does not look ripe, tomorrow at the latest. 1) Transperancy, in the positive sense that we are working on rebuilding trust, that this is something ALL married couples should have (and always DID have until the advent of social media and internet) and that it is not monitoring (if she tries to say it is that) but actually almost the opposite-- something a couple gives to each other rather than something they do to each other. If there is transparency there is no need for monitoring. ANd 2) Counselling: I know some would say this is probably premature, as I don't think I have full remorse and personal accountability from her, yet, and quite clearly based on her Sunday drive-by the OM is not out of her head, yet. However, we (and she brought it up) discussed counseling for, I think, the fourth time since we started having difficulties, (only the second time since BD in january, though) and each time I have not followed up. Following up and at least giving it a shot would be a 180 of sorts for me. OTOH, I worry about counselling being a) emotional "pressure" for her b) another opportunity for to perceive me as "pursuing" her (although my intent at this point is to say I am not 100% certain myself at this point and need to find out if we can restore the trust enough, etc., to reconcile) and c) just a box-checking exercise for her to speed up her exit from the marriage. That's a lot seemingly stacked against the idea of counselling right now... However: I have a really good counselor, pro-marriage, with whom I have spoken previously and who has a philosophy I think my W would not find pressuring (this counselor is also a sex/intimacy therapist who believes that that level of relationship can be restored-- in fact that it HAS to be restored in order for their to be a viable marriage-- once lost) and I feel like my wife, who is in a place where she wants to see if "she could even want to try to work on the marriage" might benefit from the counselling. I also have a very strong feeling, due to a number of bizarre "coincidences" that led me to this therapist, too lengthy to go into here, that this person has a role to play in my marriage before all is said and done... and that therapist in particular thinks it could be beneficial for us to come in at this time.
But I am still torn on the timing of of the counselling thing, as I am on the balance to strike between "pursuit" and "distance". It was lack of pursuit and lack of intimacy, over many years, that got me into this fix in the first place. Backing off completely now seems like it might not be that awesome a plan. So I think I am going to broach and move ahead with trying counselling, while, on the home front, not actively pursuing her (and perhaps just pretending not to notice and not even mentioning again her bedroom absence) while at the same time being available and responsive, in kind, when she reaches out.
Really feel like I am walking a tightrope, here, and don't want to give the OM a chance to worm his way back in (her birthday is next week which will be an ideal opportunity for him I am sure he will try to leverage), but don't want to overbear her and push her away. We had a brief period (3-4 weeks) of steadily improving relationship and warmth, during which I was GAL-ing and she had distanced herself from the OM, but that all reversed when they reconnected in late March early April. Now, she's apparently (though not certainly-- I can't check everything) distanced herself from him AND from me at the same time.
HJ, I've been reading your thread. There is so much strategizing and planning going on. Can't you just give both of you some space? Follow the DB rules. Stop pursuing, planning, etc.
That's just the thing. Im in a weird spot due to the dynamics that got me here. Neglect and distance are what CAUSED my problems in the first place. So, "doing 180s" and "avoiding pursuit" are directly opposed here. This is a woman who wants to be pursued/noticed/etc. Ignoring her is exactly what got me into this mess. My best interpretation of the DB guidelines (and I have had the benefit of some DB coaching, here) is that i SHOULD show signs of interest and SHOULD be looking for opportunities to foster closeness/touch/intimacy. OTOH, this is directly contrary to what Sandi and others say about what to do with WWs... but, then again, my "WW" has what seems to be some atypical quirks. I'm doing the best I can, spending alot of time on improving myself physically, spiritually, socially, emotionally, etc. However, with a cohabitating wife, there's only so much "space" i can give her (and perhaps only so much i SHOULD give her. I'm trying to walk what I think is a very delicate line here. I honestly think that complete distancing, close to the point of going "dark" would be counterproductive. OTOH, she is fairly clearly not interested in me right now... but yet she stays. Honestly it would have been much easier, process-wise, had she rejected the NC ultimatum and moved out... then my path forward would have been, IMO, somewhat clearer. Now, at least on the surface, she seems somewhat interested in at least exploring her future with me... though she has not, IMO, reached the point of full remorse/responsibility for the A. I think that Sandi is right that for now it is "Baby steps". But the situation is, I think, in some ways unique and I am not finding alot of precedent for my exact situation on these boards... which is why I keep posting looking for insight.
And isn't strategizing and planning at least on some level sort of integral to the whole DB mindset? Yes, you are doing things for YOURSELF so you come out better no matter what the result, but your goal/objective is STILL primarily to "Bust the Divorce", yes?
I think you can show that care and concern when she initiates contact. You are not seeming to give her time to think things through. You have to do what you think best because you are the one who deals with the consequences but anyone here could cling to that one line in DR and make the same case. Too many examples of people who dropped the rope and got response vs those who pursued and got divorces. Mine stuck around too until I showed him the door. Doesn't mean he was planning to stay. Inertia is a powerful force for some people.
Thanks, OwnIt, really appreciate the perspective. FWIW you are not the first one to tell me something similar. It's just that in my current situation it seems like there is plenty of conflicting "advice" or philosophies, at least as to the details. I am trying hard, however, to not be overbearing and to keep a healthy "distance". If you've read my story, however, you know that I have alot stacked against me here, and sometimes it is hard to keep the faith and not over-tinker with things. I am stubborn and a fighter (not in the physical, violent sense) by nature, and having only been recently "awoken" and with so many hopes and dreams for the future, I really want to "fight" for this. So distancing is hard to begin with, and doubly so when I know that that is what got me here in the first place. I certainly understand the theory and the principle, however.
Thanks again.
[quote=blueboy]Hi Hoosjim
You W sound like me, she convinced herself that she was doing no wrong and we were having a amicable split, instead of her running off with OM.
In Hoos' case, the marriage was deeply troubled and by his own admission, his wife's essential needs were unmet, for years... Hoos, she's not saying she wants to "run off with OM" from what I'm reading.
Did I miss something?
It's also like they can't match their behaviour with their own moral or values so have to write a story in their mind to make them feel better about what they are doing.
Every one of us, LBSers included - has a narrative. Even in solid marriages, views differ. And in retrospect we find our own views change too...
We have to keep the focus on ourselves, our roles & our mistakes, and
NOT what we think they think...
Besides, the spouse who leaves justifies their choices, AND THE spouse who stays, justifies their choices.
Doesn't make the choice right, but it is fruitless & time consuming to expect our views to change theirs. Equally fruitless and time consuming to fume and judge what we think they think...believe me, I've wasted way more of my life on these pointless activities than I care to admit.
We do what we do and tell ourselves we have a "good reason" for it. Human nature.
Have strong firm boundaries, don't agree to tell the story her way. She need to see the consequences of her actions, she is in a dream world at the moment, where she can leave you to be with OM and she has done nothing wrong.
Hoos cannot change what she believes about her actions,
all he can do is become the best Hoos he can become, and hope the changes he makes in himself are of value to him, and someday perhaps noticed by his w.
As for having "firm boundaries" - I often wonder what that means, exactly. How is he to enforce them? As for his w "needs to see the consequences"...maybe I'm not reading that comment correctly.
But the words of my DB coach - a real Godsend if I ever had one - ring truer now, more than ever -
"It's Not our job to teach our spouse a 'lesson' or show them the consequences of their actions. Life does that for them."
This^^ keeps us from playing God or punishing,
*it keeps our energy & focus on ourselves and the work we have in our own moral and emotional sandbox,
* and for those who want to save their m's, it avoids putting obstacles in the way of reconciliation.
No walkway or wayward spouse has ever returned to their marriage or "fell back in love", b/c of shaming or punishing from the LBS.
That ^^ point is often lost here, in the midst of our pain/anger from betrayal...we are so hurt and so angry, we want to lash out. We want to blame and hide...
In my opinion, when someone is here trying to save their marriage
AND they want to change/improve themselves...that ought to be the focus...
(and IF the "piecing" stage comes along, a whole lot of other issues can be addressed then...) Boundaries are for protecting Hoos, not stifling his wife. There's a difference.
Hoos, you have been brave and honest about doing your own work in your own sandbox.
I applaud you for that. You are a strong man with a humble heart, a level head on your shoulders, and a deep fatherly love for your children. That is what it takes to do this.
The reason I know in my heart of hearts that you are going to be more than alright, eventually, is b/c of the harshly rewarding journey you are making inward.
Bravo
sorry