thank you in advance. A potted summary of my situation:
(a) we have been together 26 years, married 20 (this year), one daughter. We are still "soulmates" (which makes everything so hard to compute)
(b) as I read it, at staff Christmas party my wife is informed by a senior manager that he fancies her (she is a good listener and misread his closeness previously). After the initial shock she becomes flattered and then crosses the line (we've had a good conversation about this). I discover by accident over New Year what's going on (was expecting a Whatsapp photo on her phone, what I got instead was a long list of intimate messages.
(c) had it out with her (more than once). All very calm and amicable although she naturally played down her side of the equation (yes he is a nice guy, yes she was flattered, he is very lonely).
(d) I am afraid I have been reading her texts (not recommended I know) not out of paranoia or stalking but just to gauge the level of what appears to be quite a deep emotional affair. My wife has high morals (!) in that it would not go to the next stage (it is a work thing with no potential opportunities outside of that).
(e) here is the rub. After our main "conversation" she said we should have a fresh start. Ever since then (and believe me I know when she is being insincere) we have become closer than ever. The physical side has also increased (I appreciate there could be various reasons for this but again this is definitely heartfelt).
(f) the EA is heavy and still going on yet everything is so "normal" here. I just don't get it, we are getting on so well.
So is she compartmentalising (classic EA behavour, "not doing anything wrong" in her mind as it hasn't gone up to the next level, etc.).
thank you again
I will put this here again for reference
Welcome to the board
Sorry you are here but you will meet some wonderful people here and get some great advice.
The first thing you should do is be sure to read the Divorce Remedy (DR) book by MWD
http://www.mcssl.com/store/mwdtc2014/http://divorcebusting.com/sample_book_chapters.htm and Michele's articles
http://www.divorcebusting.com/articles.htmYou may be on moderation now, post in small frequent replies and stay on this thread until you reach 100 posts
(for your thread, you can also post on other peoples threads to give support).
Especially on this Newcomers forum, where the posting activity is very active,
and your posts can quickly fall to the bottom of the page or even several pages down.
Keep journaling and asking questions - people will come!
Most important - POST!Get out and Get a Life (GAL).
DETACH. Believe none of what he or she says and half of what he/she does.
Have NO EXPECTATIONS.
Take care of yourself, breathe, eat, sleep, exercise.
Take the parts of this advice that you need and don't worry if I have repeated something that you have already done.
Here are a few links to threads that will help you immensely:
I would start with Sandi's Rules
A list of dos and don'ts for the LBS (left behind spouse)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553072#Post2553072Going Dark
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=50956#Post5095Detachment thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2538414#Post2538414Validation Cheat Sheet: Techniques and tips on how to validate (showing your walk away spouse (WAS) that you recognize and accept his or her opinions as valid, even if you do not agree with them)
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566#Post2457566Boundaries Cheat Sheet
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2536096#Post2536096Abbreviations
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2553153#Post2553153For Newcomer LBH with a Wayward Wife by sandi2
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2545554#Post2545554Resource thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...224#Post2578224Stages of the LBS
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=1964990&page=1Validation
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=191764#Post191764Pursuit and Distance
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2483574#Post2483574The Lighthouse Story
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2484619#Post2484619Your H or W is giving you a GIFT.
THE GIFT OF TIME.
USE it wisely.
Knowledge is Power - Sir Francis Bacon
CLS,
You and your wife are soulmates and you two are closer than ever, yet there's a third party in your marriage?
I'd suggest having the OM drawn and quartered, but that'd probably get me banned from the board. Have you created any boundaries for your wife?
the EA is heavy and still going on yet everything is so "normal" here. I just don't get it, we are getting on so well.
You will find that they are very, very adept at hiding it. It may/may not have crossed to the PA level. Let me ask you this - has your sex life changed in any form, as in dropped off/stopped or increased, maybe dramatically?
not yet, esp as she doesn't know I'm monitoring the situation. That's my entire point, apart from the honeymoon period over CHristmas when she was addicted to her phone there has been no standoffishnesh whatsoever, i.e. completely normal behaviour. That's why I thought about the "compartment" theory. Yes, I hope I never meet the OM.
Ever since then (and believe me I know when she is being insincere) we have become closer than ever. The physical side has also increased (I appreciate there could be various reasons for this but again this is definitely heartfelt).
(f) the EA is heavy and still going on yet everything is so "normal" here. I just don't get it, we are getting on so well.
She is hot & heavy for the OM (that's why your sex life has increased) and if the affair hasn't already gone physical, it's just around the corner. Her heighten excitement comes from her OM and it carries over into her soulmate relationship with you. As long as you allow her to have the OM in her life, then she's content to be wife and soulmate with you.......at least, for now.
So, everything is
not normal. I can't say you are being deceived, b/c you know she's in an EA. Having an EA is
very serious to women b/c it is about
feelings & emotions.......which is usually the important part of a relationship, in most women's opinion. Whereas, some H's tend not to get too worked up about his W being in an EA, just as long as it doesn't go PA. To him, the physical side of the relationship is what counts most.
Would it be a deal breaker for you if you discovered the affair had turned physical?
Just keep POSTING and one other bit of advice from Wonka
that I totally agree with.
Get DR/DB book. Keep this to yourself. DO NOT share this book or this site at all with your spouse. It is your playbook and not to be shared with the "opposing" team.
It is important to clear the search/browsing history from your computer on a daily basis to prevent the possibility for your WAS to stumble on the DB site and discover your posts here on DB. Erasing the search history will protect your posts and you as well.
We have seen too many Marriages blow up in pieces after the WAS discovers the DB site or DR book. Why is that? It is because the WAS thinks, erroneously I might add, that you are "manipulating" them back into the M.
Keep the DR book and DB site very close to your vest.
Thanks Sandi
Guess it would be a deal breaker unless there was an adult conversation to thrash out the reasons why. Strangely enough she confirmed one personality trait in one of her texts to him as she stated she was anti-adultery full stop on religious grounds (which is also why I thought our physical relationship was in "my" compartment).
Hi all
by way of an update the latest set of texts has confirmed my worst fears (and I'm afraid Sandi was bang on here particularly as my wife has used the increased sex not so much as to relieve her own pressure but to "distract" me). The physical affair is now tantalisingly close.
She has let lust override whatever remaining morals she had left. So all they need is the opportunity outside of work hours. Anyway I digress. What I would appreciate most in terms of advice now is concerned with tactics.
Our mutual cell phone company has an online portal for their app which works much like Whatsapp.
We both deleted the app from our phones as we didn't need it but what she doesn't realise is that the texts never disappear online and I will make out it is autologon with presumably the same password as her normal phone account webpage (not that I care now if she falls for this or not). So I now have all the evidence I need (it has also been screeengrabbed into a Word file as backup).
It would of course be nice to get Valentines Day out of the way first (I have spent quite a bit so as to appear to be a "normal" husband).
So clearly I want it to come out into the open on her part (it remains to be seen whether the OM will have the guts to tell his wife).
The complication will be the disruption/tidal wave at this end due to our 7 year old daughter who is loving her school and her friends (my wife might want to move her?) plus, would you believe, her mother also lives with us (that has always been a source of "marital harmony").
So would she panic knowing I know?
Based on other threads I have read here I guess in essence the marriage is over? I think it's worth fighting for but it might have to come after they get it out of their system where the reality and ups and downs of a real relationship replaces the fantasy one.
In any case I have to watch my health now as I have barely slept since New Year and I get a bit of chest pain from time to time.
I have now arranged to see a therapist (I am in London so I assume the term is the same although technically he would be called a psychotherapist).
So all suggestions would be most appreciated! with many thanks
Hi all
by way of an update the latest set of texts has confirmed my worst fears (and I'm afraid Sandi was bang on here particularly as she has used the increased sex not so much as to relieve her own pressure but to "distract" me). The physical affair is now tantalisingly close. She has let lust override whatever remaining morals she had left. So all they need is the opportunity outside of work hours. Anyway I digress. What I would appreciate most in terms of advice now is concerned with tactics. Our mutual cell company has an online portal for their app which works much like Whatsapp. We both deleted the apps from our phones as we didn't need it but what she doesn't realise is that the texts never disappear online and I will make out it is autologon with presumably the same password has her normal phone account webpage (not that I care now if she falls for this or not). So I now have all the evidence I need (it has also been screeengrabbed into a Word file as backup). It would of course be nice to get Valentines Day out of the way first (I have spent quite a bit so as to appear to be a "normal" husband). So clearly I want it to come out into the open on her part (it remains to be seen whether the OM will have the guts to tell his wife). The complication will be the disruption/tidal wave at this end due to our 7 year old daughter who is loving her school and her friends (my wife might want to move her?) plus, would you believe, her mother also lives with us (that has always been a source of "marital harmony"). So would she panic knowing I know? Based on other threads I have read here I guess in essence the marriage is over? I think it's worth fighting for but it might have to come after they get it out of their system where the reality and ups and downs of a real relationship replaces the fantasy one. In any case I have to watch my health now as I have barely slept since New Year and I get a bit of chest pain from time to time. I have now arranged to see a therapist (I am in London so I assume the term is the same although technically he would be called a psychotherapist). So all suggestions would be most appreciated! with many thanks
CJLS,
Right now, your wife's mindset is that she has both you and her boyfriend and that's what she wants. If you're not already plan B, then you'll be plan B soon enough. I think you should immediately invoke Sandi's 37 rules and forget about having a normal Valentine's Day (that would be an exercise in cake eating for her).
So I now have all the evidence I need (it has also been screeengrabbed into a Word file as backup).
Wow. Two things. Make copies and put one in a safe place. Give one to your lawyer as you will need it. And confront her. Now that you have proof, your road has drastically changed.
It would of course be nice to get Valentines Day out of the way first (I have spent quite a bit so as to appear to be a "normal" husband).
Why? Honestly, why wait? She doesn't care about you in that sense, so why put yourself through it?
Based on other threads I have read here I guess in essence the marriage is over? I think it's worth fighting for but it might have to come after they get it out of their system where the reality and ups and downs of a real relationship replaces the fantasy one
It most definitely it over and it has been over for much longer than you think or care to admit. You have proof of the affair. There isn't room in her for two, and guess who isn't included. The question you need to be asking yourself is how and why - how are you going to go forward and why would you fight for someone who has no inclination to fight for you?
And confront her. Now that you have proof, your road has drastically changed.
Slowwwwww dowwwwwwwwn.
Confronting by itself is a dangerous game. It could shut the affair down. It could be the moment where she says 'screw you' and flings the A out into the open. How are you going to handle being with a woman who will be flaunting her R with another man in front of you?
Im not saying confrontation is BAD. But, by itself, it isnt that meaningful. You need to get your ducks in a row first. Make sure you have a clear plan in place about what you want, what you will accept, what you will do, etc.
She will TEST you at every turn once its out there. If you arent strong enough, you will get crushed.
Why? Honestly, why wait? She doesn't care about you in that sense, so why put yourself through it?
Im not sure your confrontation needs to be before Valentine's Day. But I wouldnt go 'all out' as it sounds like you are planning.
It most definitely it over and it has been over for much longer than you think or care to admit. You have proof of the affair. There isn't room in her for two, and guess who isn't included. The question you need to be asking yourself is how and why - how are you going to go forward and why would you fight for someone who has no inclination to fight for you?
This is totally against everything in DB/DR. Of course your marriage is worth fighting for. That said, the marriage that you had is dead. Your W isnt going to choose to stay in the marriage if it doesnt evolve into something better. And to do that, YOU need to be the one to start the change.
Have you read Sandi's rules? If not, print them ad paste them to your forehead so you'll remember them.
Confronting by itself is a dangerous game. It could shut the affair down. It could be the moment where she says 'screw you' and flings the A out into the open. How are you going to handle being with a woman who will be flaunting her R with another man in front of you?
Versus not confronting and letting things go? One should stand up for their self and confront - unless weakness plays a factor... If he confronts, he needs to be ready to back the "or else." Otherwise, he will become the world's biggest doormat. Either the affair will be allowed to continue, or not. If he doesn't care if the affair continues, then that is a whole different kettle of fish in its own right...if he is ok with being her toy, then don't confront and let it go. Otherwise, grow a pair and stand up for one's self and say either the affair or me, but not both. But, if that route is taken he must be ready to walk away and file or whatever.
Im not sure your confrontation needs to be before Valentine's Day. But I wouldnt go 'all out' as it sounds like you are planning.
Ok, so what is the meaning of V-day? Granted he doesn't need to do it before then, but he most certainly does not need to go for a romantic thing when she is involved with someone else.
Hi all
on the subject of whether I am indeed now Plan B, this may well have been building up over the years (I always thought she was less than enthusiastic about anything connected with my 50th birthday at the time a few years back but that could be just be a personality trait of hers, i.e. I was getting too much attention from other people, who knows....). My query is basically if my status with her has changed more recently, would there necessarily be a change in her behaviour towards me? She has an absolutely fantastic poker face (which helps when you a pathological liar). More specifically as there is no potential in her workplace setup (and reduced working hours contract) for taking it to the physical stage (although I will be monitoring the situation closely) would any frustration with that also manifest itself? thank you again
PS this may well be a pointless question but are there certain ways I should be "nice" (rather than "nasty") to my wife so as not to push her to consummate the relationship more quickly as that would really devastate me. All texts being swapped on the subject are all of the wishful fantasy type. I have decided not to indulge in any evidence based accusations at least until after I've had my first therapy session in a couple of weeks (have never done this sort of thing before, it is more to do with a personal plan for myself). As stated elsewhere here, the best thing about this website is that it gives you breathing space to at least think about things. Thanks again.
PS this may well be a pointless question but are there certain ways I should be "nice" (rather than "nasty") to my wife so as not to push her to consummate the relationship more quickly as that would really devastate me. All texts being swapped on the subject are all of the wishful fantasy type. I have decided not to indulge in any evidence based accusations at least until after I've had my first therapy session in a couple of weeks (have never done this sort of thing before, it is more to do with a personal plan for myself). As stated elsewhere here, the best thing about this website is that it gives you breathing space to at least think about things. Thanks again.
There is no problem being nice. Honestly, just treat her as someone you are doing business with versus trying to be husbandly nice, if that makes sense. At this point, she wants nothing to do with the husband side. Unfortunately, a lot of us (me included) have tried to be overly nice or whatever in hopes of things only to have it backfire. Would things have changed if I treated it as a business relationship? Maybe, but can't play the what-if game.
You'll find that a good IC will guide you.
PS this may well be a pointless question but are there certain ways I should be "nice" (rather than "nasty") to my wife so as not to push her to consummate the relationship more quickly as that would really devastate me.
You make it sound like you think you have some control over this. Trust me when I say that your actions really arent relevant to whether or not they have a PA. You are just as likely to come back here in a few months and say that she said "You didnt fight for me, so I felt you didnt want me" as you are to hear "You were smothering me and I had to get away."
Thats why it's so important to focus on you, because thats all you have control over.
PS this may well be a pointless question but are there certain ways I should be "nice" (rather than "nasty") to my wife so as not to push her to consummate the relationship more quickly as that would really devastate me. All texts being swapped on the subject are all of the wishful fantasy type. I have decided not to indulge in any evidence based accusations at least until after I've had my first therapy session in a couple of weeks (have never done this sort of thing before, it is more to do with a personal plan for myself). As stated elsewhere here, the best thing about this website is that it gives you breathing space to at least think about things. Thanks again.
Hello CJLS,
I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.
The short answer to this question is yes. You want to be pleasant/neighborly and certainly not nasty. You want to move yourself forward in a positive way. Please notice that I said move forward and not move on. It is also important to detach from her and GAL.
You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Jeep, IMHO you've given some of the worst advice I've read.
CJLS, have you read DB or DR?
Hi all
my original posting it bears no real relevance to my query with you kind people today
by way of quick summary, this is my current situation and I have decided to maintain this current status quo for the sake of my 7 year old daughter. As all my "evidence" are combined cell text messages I would rather reserve those for a lawyer (not that I want to press the self destruct button on the marriage just yet). I will only confront due to unforeseen mistakes/flashpoints on their part. Obviously in an ideal world I would like it to fizzle out as we are still very strong as a couple (my choice again to maintain this). I have to get on with healing for now:
(a) D Day at New Year
(b) two amicable confrontations with an admission of half truths on her part; however she now thinks I've "moved on" from it, i.e. she hasn't got a clue what I know
(c) workplace emotional affair gets heavier (not quite full physical yet but there or thereabouts if you count groping in a disused laboratory - I kid you not!)
(d) home life unchanged (because I have been making a herculean effort as a man/husband, we are more intimate than ever and particularly in the bedroom although I appreciate there are a multitude of reasons for this)
(e) specialist councellor agrees that in this particular situation I should just play a waiting game either way (I'm damned if I do, damned if I don't) as I value the marriage so much (20 years this August) although I appreciate it will now have to be a different sort of marriage
My question to you guys today is quite a simple one: I have been through the shock, medical consequences, disbelief, depression and, more recently, acceptance (kissing and then touching someone else and what they think is the real thing after 3 months). However this week I am experiencing a new emotion: outright anger. I don't think I've seen this in many of the self-help books but I'm thinking it might be a reaction to conversations they've been having about taking it away from the workplace (they've been having clandestine country lunches, they want to socialise with work colleagues, etc.)
thank you all again
Rage is a completely normal -- and necessary -- phase in your healing.
This book doesn't compete with DB, so I think I can recommend it here without violating any rules, but grab a copy of ... It really helped me. You should get it on your Kindle or other device, though -- as the title telegraphs things more obviously than you sound like you want to were it to be seen lying around.
Hang in there. It is a very hard road.
think I'm also still a bit confused mentally about her choice of a dual existence although having said that I feel a lot stronger now having realised I inhabit the moral high ground (took a while to get there)
I'm very sorry you are here. It's a tough road.
but let's look at your situation a bit more b/c being a victim of her "wrongness" is NOT going to help you.
See, I'm Not sure why the "moral high ground" helps you. Helps you what? Legally??
I say this NOT as an attack on you but b/c it makes you powerless.
and You are powerless if you have nothing to work on in yourself and just say
she's wrong and you've got the moral high ground and - and - and -
and what??
What would SHE say if she were here?
What are you working on to become the best man you can become? Are you increasing your time with your d, b/c no woman is unmoved by the loving interaction of her child with her dad. (Plus it's the right thing to do.)
How are you becoming a man only a fool would leave?
These ^^ are the empowered choices you can make. Not so much about being "right".
Hi
only mentioned the moral high ground because it helps me eliminate any negative thoughts that creep in, no more than that. I am past the obsessing stage now. I treat each day as a one off in all senses which also applies to how I step up in all departments.
"negative thoughts" about what you want to work on, or about her?
How does feeling morally right help you avoid the negatives?
(To be clear, yes I think she's wrong to have an A. But she is not here working on the m.)
The focus has to be solely on your own work and all I've read about so far is what SHE is doing with OM or IF she will have a PA, etc.
where does that leave you? Why are you not in this equation? Hence the question -
What are you doing to become a man only a fool would leave?
can you answer the earlier questions about what she would say if she were here?
And what you want to work on in yourself?
negative thoughts about all aspects of the affair
if she were here you would get no admissions whatsoever apart blame shifting presumably
you have certainly given me food for thought concerning my own actions, yes I must be more proactive than just presenting a superconfident individual
negative thoughts about all aspects of the affair
meaning b/c you feel you have the moral high ground, you are not having negative thoughts about all aspects of the affair? I'm very confused by that answer. Sorry.
if she were here you would get no admissions whatsoever apart blame shifting presumably
This is ^^ incredibly vague. And it deflects from us helping YOU work on YOU. Who is blame shifting now?
Look, we are here trying to help you b/c you are on a site to help save a marriage in crisis.
She's not here working on the m. So all we can do is help you work on you, and sure, maybe prepare for various scenarios, but all we really can do is help you become a better man, to behave differently and change and grow from this
or not.
So, what would your w say if she were here? Would she say the m lacked passion or that you were inattentive or like a bff but not a lover,
or too "amicable" and or quick tempered, critical, controlling, unimaginative,
no one is holding you to this. I'm just asking you to spitball what you think she'd say.
THEN we can figure out if any of her feedback is valid AND if you want to work on it.
Make sense?
you have certainly given me food for thought concerning my own actions, yes I must be more proactive than just presenting a superconfident individual
Are you presenting a super confident individual or one who takes for granted her remaining (esp since her mother lives there)
or does she see you as a friend, and not more?
Dig deeper.
The one upside to these ordeals is that we can become truly better people. Why avoid that? At least get your "money's worth" from this garbage.
Pain is the touchstone for tremendous growth, or victimhood.
In the end, this^^ is all up to us.
specialist councellor agrees that in this particular situation I should just play a waiting game either way
I agree with 25. Waiting is not an action.
Standing isnt being still.
You can stand for your marriage as long as you wish. But if you dont actively grow, then your situation wont change.
The one upside to these ordeals is that we can become truly better people. Why avoid that? At least get your "money's worth" from this garbage.
Pain is the touchstone for tremendous growth, or victimhood.
In the end, this^^ is all up to us. [/color]
This is really, really good stuff, IMO.
You never did answer the question. Have you read DB or D R?
Hi all
First of all apologies to 25yearsmlc for not replying sooner. I have been thinking a lot on her points. I will certainly not post again in future without thinking things through first. In essence I am trying to behave more like the person who swept her off her feet 27 years ago without appearing too overattentive (I appreciate she is still in the positive mirroring/fog phase with the OM so this is a long game, I am desperate to keep her unless she wants out of course). Although not a macho type I am also consciously trying to be seen as taking the lead in most matters now as I might have subconsciously let this slip over the fast few years (possibly). My wife has always been a “wearing the trousers” type, I think this is OK within reason as this is personality based, she knows not to push me too far, so I can only assume I am not part of her thinking much at the moment, for whatever reasons are behind this affair, hopefully I’ll find out one day.
On the subject of what would my wife say if she was here, this is a tough one. She clearly plays her cards close to her chest which I guess is why firstly I was not aware of any dissatisfaction on her part with the marriage which in turn led to zero discussion about this. On all other fronts we are very good communicators (and of course recently I have made a point of us having a 20 minute + discussion about how the working day went that day, etc. every evening). She also has a great poker face which doesn’t help either in trying to work out what’s going on in her head. As I think she is leading a dual existence (for her own selfish reasons, her personality can best be described as a combination of selfish –not necessarily always in a negative manner- and high maintenance) it would be very hard to get her to open up. There may well be the possibility that resentment has built up over the years but there has been no obvious trigger for this, yet there have been times I have noticed a lack of genuine affection (this has not been the case since our “half truths” confrontations earlier this year where things have never been better, although again her positive reciprocation could be for a ton of reasons).
So in an ideal world I would like a “final” confrontation sooner rather than later (I certainly am not sitting around assuming the affair will fizzle out or that her Mother is the one thing keeping her here, as has been suggested). I will need a trigger for this as I am “not supposed to know anything”. Maybe something as trivial as she said his name in his sleep for the umpteenth time the previous night, or whatever. I am seeing a lawyer in two weeks time, not to file or anything but more to get an idea of tactics as I will need to have every possibility locked and loaded in my mind to allow for any twist and turn the confrontation conversation might head. There are certain aspects of UK law which are clearly different but also, depressingly, a lot of it is shared with the US. For example, when I was at home looking for work for 5 years I could be viewed as being the primary carer for my daughter (my wife went back to work a year after the birth) when she wasn’t attending kindergarten. However, one tactic that tends to be recommended to force an affair out into the open, i.e. threaten to leave (and with the intention of doing it as well) is a big nono over here as this will be taken into account at any family court and would almost certainly guarantee me never setting foot in my house again after the divorce, as my wife would be allowed to stay there whilst looking for somewhere to live and only then would the house be sold. So I will also not be able to use my body of cellphone text based evidence as (a) this might backfire with her if I present it to her, (b) in the UK a family court judge “may” take a dim view of intercepted texts/emails and may even deem it illegal which will, of course count against me in any judgement.
Will have to find DB/DR on a UK second hand book site (an electronic version would of course be “safer” in terms of delivery!).
Thank you all once again
Hi all
it's been a while without any update (apologies!) but the main thing to report was that I confronted using all the amazing tools I have picked up from these boards.
Note I have confronted rather than exposed. I did make the mistake of sharing my experiences with one of the other more gung ho infidelity boards, but my reluctance to expose (my choice) resulted in myself getting roundly abused so I won't be going back there again.
My lawyer (being a family specialist) is all for keeping things as amicable as possible especially at the divorce stage so I went with her wishes about the OW. If needs be later on if you remember all my evidence is electronic and can therefore be emailed to the OW.
A lot was said in the conversation including the topic of splitting/divorce and dividing things up. I did say I was prepared to let her go and she could go to him and bring it all out in the open but she said that would not happen as he would not be leaving his wife so we would both end up on our own (which may still happen of course). I was not surprised she downplayed how "deep" it is but she did admit it was addictive. I told her that if this is BS I will find out and also that I did not trust her yet.
In the following week she kept saying she had made a massive mistake and could I forgive her. I said to her that she probably fell in love with him (knowing full well it was a mix of love and lust). Guess this could be regret rather than actual remorse.
Not sure if this is encouraging but she readily agreed to marriage counselling. We are having individual meetings before the joint sessions. Having read opinions fron Sandi and others I appreciate this could just be some sort of internal validation for her and I should be able to sense if she is just playing lip service. I was advised by the lawyer that I should stop snooping on the cell phone messages as it will destroy me but she did say that I could check a couple of weeks or so later to see how committed she is.
The red flag (which I expected) was that she did not want to give up her job (it pays very well and the UK is f****d for jobs not that I am making excuses for her) but she knows the score.
I finally decided to check the texts the other night as a one off to see how things really stand (no need to do it any more so that obsessive aspect has now gone if it was indeed truly obsessive on my part). It was intriguing as it was a running commentary on the confrontation conversation. As an example, she said to him she should really quit her job (so she was actually listening to me). She even asked him if they could go back to how it was before the affair but he of course played her. The reluctance to leave her job will be my main focus in the counselling sessions whether she is playing me like a violin or not.
So I have no idea what's next and whether she's still prepared to carry it on within the fog in full knowledge she will rip her family apart. Just got the small matter of the 20th anniversary and the expensive foreign holiday to get through (the latter is purely for my daughter's benefit).
At least I now have the divorce mindset if it comes to it and believe me that is a breakthrough on the personal front in terms of moving out of infidelity. What a ***** tragedy.
The reluctance to leave her job will be my main focus in the counselling sessions whether she is playing me like a violin or not.
This happened to me. I was fed nearly every excuse in the book from my wife and our terrible MC as to why she shouldn't quit.
W said repeatedly that her interractions with OM were rare now, and she would schedule meetings when he wasn't around in order to avoid him. When I saw on social media that he got promoted and he would be her supervisor, did she step up and quit on the spot. That finally showed me her true dedication to our marriage. Had she offered me some lame excuse, I'd be out of the marriage.
My biggest regret is not forcing her to quit that job when first found out. My new IC helped me realize this, my old IC and MC were just enabling idiots. My reconciliation suffered horribly all the time they worked together. Now that they're apart (a year later), we're doing much better.
I'm of the opinion that once an affair happens in the workplace, you're done there. Had I had an affair, I would've quit out of respect. The line of BS both my W and MC fed me was so detrimental to our recovery that I'm surprised we made it through.
This latest update tells me you're going to be just fine either way. Even though she's a "wears the pants" type of person, all organizations, no matter what they are, including marriages, can have only one leader. You're the king of your castle. The leader of your family. If you get complacent in that role that opens the door for someone else to usurp your role.
Your new boundaries are great. Stick to them and don't be a pushover ever again. If your spouse, or anyone, says you're trying to control her, and that's a popular argument from wayward spouses, you tell them you can't control them in the slightest. They are free to make their own choices. What you can control is yourself and if they choose to keep disrespecting you then you can walk away from this marriage and you'll be just fine. Your integrity is still intact. Hers isn't. Her AP's isn't. You could leave clean and with a bright future. They'd be stuck with an immoral cheating affair partner. Not much of a prize for either of them.
My biggest regret is not forcing her to quit that job when first found out.
I don't look at it like you'd be "forcing" her to do anything. When I started putting up my boundaries I was told, even my an MC, that I was trying to control her. It took me finding a good IC to realize that wasn't the truth.
You wouldn't "force" her to quit anything. What you would say is I can't force you to do anything. What I can do is control myself and I won't be in a marriage with someone who continues to work and interact with a person that they cheated on me with.
That's a boundary for you, and should be for all of us (I know it is for me).
I tell my wife that. I don't snoop or keep track of her ever. She feels the need to let me know where she is when we're not together as some type of accountability. I really don't care. I can't control where she goes, who she associates with and I tell her that. All I can control is me. She does EVEN ONE THING that violates my marriage boundaries, like even an inappropriate flirt or conversation with another man, then I'm gone forever. It's that simple. I have worth as a person and I won't be treated like that ever again by anyone for even 1 second. I can't control what she does but I darn sure can control what I do. We all can.
The red flag (which I expected) was that she did not want to give up her job (it pays very well and the UK is f****d for jobs not that I am making excuses for her) but she knows the score.
Leaving that job site is a must. Txhubby is right about getting therapists that understand the addictive power of EA's. Having a good therapist to guide you through reconciliation is good, as long as your W is not seeing, hearing, or talking with OM. I understand how tough it is to get a good paying job, but do you want a good job or a good marriage? Unfortunately, if she stays where OM is employed, your MR will be lacking in so many ways.
This has been going on for several months now, and I think you are still on your first thread.
It causes me to wonder if you are the type of man who waits for his W to decide what she wants. Have you considered saying something like, "It's not cool for you to remain in the same employment as OM, and I feel disrespected".
You forgave her, which is admirable. I don't know your W, but some WW's will hold the H's forgiveness over his head, as if he has no further say about her current or future behavior that affects the MR. It would be unwise for either of you to think the EA will end while she is employed at the same job as OM. There have been numerous stories where the AP remained employed together, and I can't remember any successes in their MR's. And for the most part, these were cases where W's had an EA with a coworker or boss/supervisor.
Forgiveness is only the first step. There will be things she has to do to make the MR work. She may need to be told that forgiveness for past transgressions does not equate to trust. The first time, she freely had your trust, but this time around she needs to show that she can be trusted. (Just in case she throws it in your face, "You said you forgave me, but obviously you haven't"). Forgiveness is not condoning what she did, neither is it trust. This will be difficult for both of you, but for her to expect you to be okay with her working with OM should not be acceptable.
There is a big difference in a W having to
settle for her H (b/c the OM won't leave his W and kids), from a W who wants to be with her H. Currently, her desire to be with you instead of the OM may not rank very high. Until she can work through her wayward issues, she needs to make decisions based on what is right. If she will, then eventually her feelings will follow.
I realize she's not the one coming to the board. I just try to give you an idea of the part she has to do. There will plenty of work on both sides of the street. A lot of her work will be on her mindset and getting her heart right........if she makes the right choice to stay in her M.
I hope you will post more often.
Hi all thank you all for the kind advice.
Again I apologise for the lack of updates but it was getting to the stage where the limbo was eating me alive and my suspicion that they had arranged a hotel rendezvous was just the catalyst I needed to confront.
It turned out they didn't go though with it (for whatever reason).
To be honest I feel a different person since the "conversation" and my ceasing the snooping.
It is highly likely they are still interacting on a certain level (I'm not that naive).
However she goes to the MC on Saturday and after that we start the joint sessions.
I would rather everything came out there (we are with the biggest outfit in the UK, Relate, so I am presuming they will just facilitate us making our minds up rather than facilitating a divorce).
I will certainly know immediately if she is being sincere or not.
The only time she really got slightly aggressive during our conversation was when I said we need to consider any long term damage to our daughter (7 is such a crucial year and is quite often termed the "age of reason", so I don't buy into any theory that says they adapt to anything).
But if she is still in the fog maybe she doesn't realise what would happen to her family even though I have warned her already what I will do.
Promise I'll update ASAP!
PS
does anybody have any strong opinions on how a WAW might use "bedroom activities" as a weapon during this "withdrawal from affair" period (if that is indeed the case)? I know Sandi's opinion on this sort of thing but, as this seems to be the year where my wife finally discovered s*x on a regular basis (her excuse: she's worried about the menopause and wants to make up for lost time, hmmm), I am not exactly going to say no, but at the same time I should never be caught off guard, in case it is some sort of diversion tactic?
Hello CW2017,
Thanks for the update!
Little compares to the devastation people feel when they discover their spouse has been unfaithful. Couples often struggle to get past intense emotional pain, mistrust, resentment and never ending arguments about the betrayal. Healing from infidelity is achievable for both of you with the right support and tools.
I would hold off on using "bedroom activities" as a weapon, especially at this point. However there are things that could work and make a difference. I suggest you speak to a DB coach, as they are experts in looking at what has happened to bring you to this point in your relationship and what is the best way to interact with her, so that you are most likely to bring her closer and not push her any further away. Your coach's expertise will help you come up with a very specific plan (that may be counter intuitive to what you feel like saying and doing) on how to best turn things around. I wish you all the best and would be happy to discuss the coaching with you.
Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004
Hi
first of all apologies for any confusion about my screen name. Thought I'd change it from the previous one as I think using all of my initials might not be a good idea (in case someone ever gets wind of this)!
Anyway the reason for the update is that my wife had her first individual MC session this morning (mine having been a couple of weeks back). Although the original plan had been to follow this up with 4 joint sessions, for some reason today's counsellor wants it now to be 2 joint and then revert back to one on ones. Does anyone think there may be a specific reason for this outside of differing techniques maybe being applied by MCs here in the UK (i.e. some factor that I am not aware of which has come out in their conversation, seeing as I stopped monitoring my wife weeks ago for sanity reasons!).
My wife certainly agreed earlier that the OM would definitely be the topic of conversation in the MC sessions (with a bit of her live-in Mom thrown into the mix). She also seemed a bit off in the sense that I said that her continuing in her job is going to be a major issue for me, at least in the medium to long term, although I reiterated that I would never apply any pressure for her to give it up but she knows my feelings now in no uncertain terms (guess only time will tell if this a tactical error; she knows of my boundary of non-sharing but at the same time I do not want to come across as controlling in any way).
I think she was being a bit circumspect because she knows I have trust issues now. I said that forgiveness and trust are two completely separate things and time would be needed for both. She once again said that she never expected this to happen (but of course it has, so now we have "the elephant in the room" for the MC sessions).
So what should be my general tactics for the joint sessions? As has been suggested in other recent threads I should certainly state that her continuing to work with OM is of deep concern and smacks of disrespect. Assuming she is not going to give up the job, hopefully the MC can point out all the issues that will stem from that decision. Are there any other "standard lines" I should throw into the joint sessions as well?
thank you again
Hello all
just got in from a very nice Italian meal out with the W. Although I had arranged this earlier in the week, it had also been suggested by the counsellor at our first joint MC session this morning as the "date night". This has been our first quality time meal together since one week after BD at the beginning of January and we did sort of put the world to rights (we did go out for the day for her birthday on 03/17, but apart from that it has been essentially family time only, we had intended to eat out over the intervening months but something always got in the way, but this is of course "background noise" to the main proceedings).
The MC session was extremely illuminating. I kicked it off with comments and objectives by saying that what I have had to deal with this year has clearly been a symptom of a bigger problem, i.e. the symptom being my wife choosing to embark on an extramarital affair. I said although it would be naive for me to think that there are no further interactions occurring at my W's place of work (on whatever level) and that there are probably still strong emotions involved my aim is to address the main issues so as to prevent any repeat episodes in the future. My W stated why the affair happened, i.e. the OM was unhappy in his own MR and was forever praising her, etc, etc. but she genuinely wanted things in the MR to go back to how things were before the affair.
The structure will now be for two further individual sessions before coming together again for further joint sessions. My aim in my next (confidential) session will be to tell the counsellor that my gut feeling is that the affair is still going on due to the depth of feelings involved despite me having now confronted (due to my previous "snooping" establishing the depth of the affair), e.g. my W was searching for classical love poems last week, I do rather cynically find it hard to believe that she is planning a card for our 20th anniversary in one month's time), it is also the case that some items of provocative lingerie have been purchased recently (again I am dubious as to the reasons for this, despite her knowing we are staying at a top hotel for our 20th; the evening will be a big deal, although she has no idea how many people are coming, I did of course arrange all this at the beginning of the year).
We got through the joint themes of forgiveness and trust and I set out my stall based on what has been recommended on these boards to me previously and I hoped that both the MC and my W would understand why I would still have trust issues. There was then an intriguing round where around 20 graphics were presented to us and we had to pick 3 which best summed up our relationship during this time. Unsurprisingly we both went for the brick wall between us. What was illuminating was that my W said her wall had probably building up for 2 years or more (so Sandi's reasoning was bang on here). Naturally her live in mother came into the mix here but the MC said our improved communication this year (i.e. basically talking through our day at work etc.) has essentially made a hole in this wall but that we both have to realise that the reasons for this wall now are very complex (which makes me wonder exactly what my W told her last week in her solo session).
What really took my breath away was that her next graphic involved her being in jail and I was the jailor (she had called me this at one point in her cell messages to the OM). Seemingly whenever she wanted to do things on her own such as going out with friends she detected an attitude from me, which was news to me as I had previously pointed out to her that due to my father being an old fashioned hard guy (World War 2 etc.) I had decided from an early age to be the polar opposite to him personality wise (probably turning me into an apparent "nice guy" although I'm probably not, although not in the marital context!). Hence it was a real shock to discover I was perceived as being controlling. I detect some genuine insecurity that has only really come to light this year after almost 27 years together (I have always been aware of selfish behaviour and high maintenance issues but this aspect of her personality has come as a complete shock). Ironically the last graphic I chose was the one where I had her back no matter what so I hope that one hit home.
I really hope she is taking all of this seriously because the only alternative is now the obvious (D).
would appreciate your comments.
CW2017,
I wouldn't take the jail and jailor comment seriously. That isn't nothing but wayward talk. My W is walking around here acting like she was never alowed to go anywhere or do anything. I've never told her what she couldn't do. At most I may have advised her on some things for safety reasons, but never have I demanded or told her what to do. If anything I have been told over the years that I have given my W a little too much leeway. That might be the "nice guy" in me. Because like yourself my father ruled the home with an iron fist. And half the stuff my W does wouldn't have been condoned by him. Which he states is part of the reason why I'm having this MR issues now.
Tread
many thanks for that. I actually admire that hard old generation, not least for what they did for their countries (which of course is the strongest aspect of the bond between the UK and the US, in fact my W's father would never talk about what he witnessed in the army back then but that is of course a whole other story).
Although my father is no longer around he would have stated as a fact that that our generation are probably too touchy feely, especially in affairs of the heart. But at the same time if my wife's plan is to run rings around the MC hopefully I can tease a few snippets out from the MC in my solo session next week. As I do not intend to check on messages I will play it purely on gut instinct from now on (which has been pretty spot on up unitl now).
Hi all
been reading some abs powerful threads on here this week which I have found very empowering. I also had my semi-regular lunch with my wisest (and only confidant about this) cousin yesterday. She thinks I'm doing amazingly well and believe me she is going through her own hell with one of her S's who is at war with his wife (unfortunately he had the affair).
So tomorrow I face my first individual session with the MC who conducted our joint one last week. I will try and see what she thinks about detaching. Because I have been feeling stronger recently (haven't looked at any messages for a month now and don't feel a need to) I will say tomorrow that the A is likely to still be going on (at whatever level) as it is in the workplace and my wife won't give up her job. I will state this because I know the depth of feelings involved previously. But at the same time I will say that I have no intention of finding out for myself and that it will reveal itself eventually when she knows exactly what I will do, i.e. at the moment I am feeling fairly relaxed about the whole thing (a marked change from the previous 6 months).
It is on the record (in the confidential notes from my first session with a different counsellor) that I was checking messages previously so it will be interesting to see if the MC refers to this. I will likely also emphasise that my W's statement last week about me being "controlling" was way wide of the mark. This is because for years I have been trying to get her to become closer to some of the other school Mums (sic UK!). A lot of them socialise together, going out for drinks, etc. and I thought it would do her the world of good (hardly controlling, eh?). But I really think she cannot identify with women yet of course has always seeked solace it would appear in male company (likely stemming from her own childhood). So that has def been a constant source of frustration for me over the years as I would like to get friendly with the Dads as well who I barely know.
No doubt her mother will come into the mix tomorrow as well as she still exerts a large hold over her daughter (despite almost being 80), possibly another reason for "the rebellion". I guess the supreme irony here is that because of the testing dynamics of the domestic setup of 3 generations of women under one roof I should have been the one looking elsewhere!!
Hope everyone has a great weekend
A good session with the MC this morning. However one thing did mystify me a bit. On the subject of sex she did ask me if I tended to initiate and I said it tended to be my W mainly because I never wanted it to appear that I was demanding it, so in that sense I was putting her feelings first. Also undoubtedly in the background was my feeling that she was not a highly sexed person (no sex before marriage and only once in a 2 week honeymoon). There have even been a couple of time periods where we have gone a year without. Therein lies one communication issue clearly as she would always shut down any conversation on the subject. In her defence I have not always been in the best of shape. So the supreme irony at the moment is that I am in fairly ripped shape now and we have had more sex during the A period than prob in the whole marriage (outside of attempting to conceive).
So I think the MC was trying to say that one of the reasons for the affair was that I wouldn't reinforce her sexuality and desirability through initiating sex. So I might have to hold my hands up for that one although she warned me that we would have to talk such things over in the next joint sessions for the counselling to work. Of course I had to admit there was a high chance she might have been thinking about the OM "during" but there's not much I can do about it. In a way I am glad she is finally getting something out of it for herself outside of pleasing me if that doesn't sound paradoxical.
Having said all this the most important question came at the end where I answered in the affirmative about whether I am prepared to divorce, I told the MC I at least have to appear I am going through with it.
PS by way of clarification regarding the s*x life I should have added that if we do come through the other side of this mess at least we will have a healthier platform for that side of the relationship (didn't want to look too "forgiving" there)!
Hi all
again some fantastic threads still on the go this weekend and are a testament to the superative advice (as always) being offered. Been feeling a bit melancholic this weekend which I suppose is a basic human reacton after having felt quite strong for the last 6 weeks or so.
Went to dinner with my closest confidant on Friday who is going through his own divorce hell at the moment. We were swapping MC anecdotes etc. Strangely enough he could never understand how he enacted all manner of 180s based on his own MC advice to meet his wife halfway who despite all this behavioral change still wanted out. It occurred to me having read so much on the forums here now that surely there must have been someone else in his sitch?
While I was out my W was looking up some youtube song videos which she was heavily into earlier in the year whilst very deep in her own fog. No idea why that might be but she had her own solo MC session yesterday (didn't ask her what that was like as we come together for our next joint one next weekend, respecting the confidentiality of that). She has certainly also deleted her online timeline (for whatever reason) but I am sticking to my plan of not making my decision until after MC has gone as far as it can, our 20th "celebrations" in a couple of weeks (she is genuinely excited about this and hasn't got a clue where she is going or who is coming) and our 2 week holiday with DD. So in that sense things are good.
It's just that at the moment I just feel really sad about the whole thing and how I may well have to pull the plug if it becomes clear the OM is still on the scene. Think the next joint MC session will be telling as the MC has told me that it will be really probing, likely to be going into my previous major relationship and her childhood abandonment issues, all to establish (I think) how she views me as a "man". This will hopefully get to the crux of what I want from the MC sessions, i.e. to ensure this A situation never happens again. Then again if the OM is still on the scene... (hopefully the MC has sniffed that one out).
thank you all again
yep, def feeling sad again today, hope it will pass, have lifted myself letting everyone who is coming to the 20th do know how to get to the venue etc. So, since BD I've been through the usual stages, i.e. shock, grief, anger, acceptance, bullishness and now melancholy. Guess I ought to keep a journal!
I hope the MC sessions are helping. I went back to catch up on your thread, and noticed that the C said your W accused you of being controlling. From what I can determine, the WW's two most used cards are 1) Controlling; and 2) Guilt. She accuses the H of controlling behavior, or she'll try to get what she wants by making him feel guilty. I'm sure there are probably more, but these two appear the most.
How has the tension been between the two of you since MC started? Is she still eager in the bedroom? If I may offer something for you to tuck under your hat, women like want to feel desirable. If she has to initiate making love every time, she could wonder if she is no longer desirable........especially as she begins to see her youth fade. It's just as hard on the beautiful woman as it is for the plain one (maybe even more).
I don't know why this has popped into my brain......but it won't cost anything.
I often tell H's that when they compliment their W.........don't sound like a
husband. An example of the H compliments is, "You look nice today".
We like it to sound much more intimate from our H. "If you catch me staring today, it's b/c that blouse really brings out your beautiful blue eyes". Or better yet.......skip the blouse and just tell her how her beautify eyes make you feel.
Sandi,
What if W isn't cool with compliments at this point?
Hi Sandi
and thank you once again for the valuable insights. My W has been nothing but keen about the MC sessions. I suppose the one aspect about the last session was that around half of it was taken up with discussing her live-in mother. This I guess is all in the mix due to the control she still exerts over her. I even commented that this was likely to have contributed to my W doing what she did. I was intigued by your comment about the "controlling". Although she could not comment on what she might know during my previous solo session, the C did say that my W's "perception" might be one of controlling. I don't know but there is a possibility I might emit a "vibe" as I was treated badly in a previous relationship and those deeply buried trust memories might have come to the surface, who knows?
The more I think about the bedroom "activities" it has not been the case of one person initiating or not, as my wife knows I am ultra keen all the time but I tend to yield to her being "in the mood" herself (again another example of me being non-controlling!). I certainly go out of my way these days to compliment all aspects of her and I know she really appreciates it (maybe I have finally realised it is one of her "love languages"!). All in all, we are getting on just fine (and particularly in that department!), but that doesn't mean there isn't cake eating going on.
As our closest friends will be attending the 20th anniversary celebrations this Saturday I will be making an enormous fuss of her (it should be a good day all round as we are taking DD to the World Athletics in the morning). We agreed during the MC session that, should we want to during our 2 week holiday commencing next week, we should also take the opportunity to talk at length.
So all I can do is to be "that man" and just see how it all shakes out.
so sorry for what you are going through. I hope it all works out for the best for you and your daughter