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http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2725003Hi everyone! I haven't posted in a while and my last thread hit 10 pages last week so I figured I'd start a new thread. Those of you new to my sitch will probably find it difficult to catch up so I'll recap below, but if you have the time, my previous threads have a lot of wisdom imparted by the vets on this board so they're worth reading.
My signature pretty much sums up the timeline of my sitch.
I discovered my W's affair at the end of May 2016. At the time she was remorseful and was very adamant about saving the marriage. What followed was 5 months of me doing all the wrong things (begging, reasoning, sales-pitching, pursuing, spying, controlling) which pushed my W (who was already on the fence about our future) to the side of giving up on the M.
I continued to spy and uncovered more and more circumstantial evidence that she was hiding interactions with other men from me. Each time I found something new, I would confront her again. And each confrontation just made her more angry and resentful. We decided to separate, but I refused to leave the house. At that point the marriage declined into a limbo status and has remained there every since.
The holidays and a trip to Disney came and went, we shared some good times but also some harsh words and difficult discussions. By the 3rd week of this month (January) I had decided that I'd had enough. I was committed to the idea of giving my wife an ultimatum of "If you can't $hit or get off the pot, I will make your decision for you and file for divorce." I mulled over this ultimatum for a couple days and flip-flopped on whether or not it was a good idea about 100 times.
In the end, I changed my mind about the ultimatum and decided to take a more positive stand. So I asked her if we could put all of our problems aside for now and just focus on reconnecting as friends, for the sake of maintaining a low-conflict environment for our kids. She agreed, and things have been MUCH better between us ever since.
At the moment she still feels like a divorce is best for us. She's given me the speeches about how "people come in and out of your life for different reasons" and how "kids are resilient" and how "I'm not looking to cheat you out of anything. I want everything to be amicable." I've learned to listen to her more and not try to interject in the middle of her thought. I'm trying to validate more too.
So for the past week I've been taking a different approach. I greet her with a friendly smile and an enthusiastic "good morning" each day. When we interact it's usually brief and our conversations are mostly logistical, but I try to make time to tell a quick funny story, tell a joke, or relay something that I saw or read that I know she'd be interested in. I'm also trying some subtle unilateral touching, usually my hand on her upper back or shoulder for a brief second or two. So far she hasn't pulled away or looked at me strangely when I do it.
My GAL is in full swing too. On Monday I drove down to Atlantic City after work and stayed overnight. I don't gamble at all, but I love just hanging out at the pool and going out to eat and drink. My W and I used to do this 2-3 times a year so I decided that shouldn't deny myself the fun even though my W wouldn't come with me this time. Tonight I have an appt to get a new tattoo. It's a Superman logo that will go on my inner forearm. The idea spawned from my daughter calling me "Superman" one day. Now, every time I turn my wrist I will see it and it will be a source of inspiration for me. Tomorrow I'm meeting up with a bunch of musicians to hang out and play music.
Now all this isn't to say that I'm turning a blind eye to our problems. My W is still behaving in a way that I don't really approve of - staying out late, partying with girlfriends, drinking too much, and (although I can't prove it) carrying on some sort of A. She has insisted multiple times that she is not seeing anyone. But even if she's not lying, she's likely bending the truth enough so that a "friends with benefits" situation doesn't qualify as "seeing someone."
But even though my W has pretty much destroyed the trust between us. Worrying and wondering where she is, or trying to spy on her to get more information isn't going to restore that trust. I have to let go and let her do her own thing. With the full understanding that if/when I get to the point where I truly believe that the trust cannot be rebuilt and that there's no hope for a R (or that I don't even want one anymore) I can make the decision to walk away. But at the moment I still believe there's a chance for us.
I've had 3 DB telephone coaching sessions and the advice I was given lines up with my current approach. Put the problems away. They won't get solved now anyway. Instead, try to reconnect, establish good will and friendship. I've also started Mort's program (which employs a very similar philosophy) and it's really helped a lot. One of his quotes that resonated with me was, "You can't talk yourself out of situation that you behaved yourself into." And unfortunately that's what I've been trying to do for too long.
I still feel sad, lonely, jealous, angry, insecure, and hopeless sometimes. But I'm trying my best to deal with those emotions in a positive way and keep them away from my interactions with my W. The irony is, I don't know if I could have taken this approach 9 months ago when the first bomb dropped. I WISH that I had, but it seems likely that only in the wisdom I've gained from my mistakes over the last 9 months am I able to approach my sitch in this way.
Time will tell. And then I will tell you all
Thanks for reading and GL to everyone struggling on this site. If nothing else, we should all be proud that we're trying to take action to make our lives better.
By the 3rd week of this month (January) I had decided that I'd had enough. I was committed to the idea of giving my wife an ultimatum of "If you can't $hit or get off the pot, I will make your decision for you and file for divorce." I mulled over this ultimatum for a couple days and flip-flopped on whether or not it was a good idea about 100 times.
This is my thinking. You cant file for divorce as a means of trying to get her to 'do' or 'feel' something. You arent making 'her' decision. You file for divorce because you feel like your boundaries are crossed and you wont accept being in the position in which you are put. Or theres some financial or other kind of protection that you need from it.
Im glad you didnt file or even threaten to file. Im not sure it would have actually been of any benefit for you.
This is my thinking. You cant file for divorce as a means of trying to get her to 'do' or 'feel' something. You arent making 'her' decision. You file for divorce because you feel like your boundaries are crossed and you wont accept being in the position in which you are put. Or theres some financial or other kind of protection that you need from it.
Im glad you didnt file or even threaten to file. Im not sure it would have actually been of any benefit for you.
Exactly Kaizen. This is a great point.
And in addition to this, the idea of divorcing, splitting up the family, and co-parenting from separate locations goes against my moral value system. I made a commitment to my W that I don't intend to break. Sure, at times I wasn't a good husband. And I accept 50% of the responsibility for the deterioration of our marriage.
But this commitment to raise my kids in the best environment possible, break the cycle of broken marriage that our parents passed on to us, and love my W for better or worse is more important to me than the pain I'm experiencing now because of her behavior.
In the end, I changed my mind about the ultimatum and decided to take a more positive stand. So I asked her if we could put all of our problems aside for now and just focus on reconnecting as friends, for the sake of maintaining a low-conflict environment for our kids. She agreed, and things have been MUCH better between us ever since.
Chris73,
Congratulations on this big step and good for you for enjoying yourself in AC and your other GAL activities.
Chris,
Just dropped by to check in. I haven't been on much lately, but wanted to see how you are doing. I'm so glad to hear you're doing well. It sounds like you're in a positive place and taking an approach that will be productive for your own well-being. I'm proud of you and happy for you! Keep it up, brother!
Had a great weekend.
Stayed in the city after work to get my Superman tattoo. It looks so freaking cool. I wish I could post a picture here. I took pictures of my kids with me for inspiration (in case the pain was getting to me), but I weathered just fine. I hope I will always look at it and smile the way I do now.
Saturday I traveled back to the city for my first Meetup with the live music group and had a fantastic time. The venue was great and all the people were super friendly. It felt like I had known them for years! There were about 16 people who signed up to perform, I was 12th and played 2 songs.
Sunday was a bit chaotic. The original plan was for me, my W, and the kids to hang out and then watch the Superbowl. Unfortunately by about 3pm we discovered that both my kids had head lice and spent the rest of the day shampooing and washing everything. Eventually we did finally sit down to watch the game.
The interactions between my W and me have been very cordial. I put no pressure or expectations on her. I've slowly stopped spying on her (although I haven't stopped caring about her whereabouts, I guess that will come eventually). I greet her with enthusiasm and make an effort to initiate a frivolous/fun conversation at least one/day. Basically, a topic that has nothing to do with our R or anything logistical. Usually a joke or a funny/interesting story from my work day or that I read somewhere.
I'm also initiating a unilateral touch for just a second or two. Usually on the shoulder or arm. I'd like to try putting my hand on hers, but we haven't really been in a position where that would be a natural move.
Overall she's been responding positively to all of this. She laughs at my jokes and stories. She doesn't pull away or jump when I try to touch her. On Sunday, I was out in the garage and asked her to bring me my water bottle. When she came to the doorway and handed it to me she looked as if she wanted to kiss me. I didn't react though.
Later in the evening while the game was on, I was helping with all the laundry that we had rewashed because of the lice. She saw me doing something and said, "I've got it babe, go watch the game." It took me by surprise so much that I almost said something like "Did you just call me babe?" But I didn't. I just acted normal.
Yesterday morning, while I was looking at my son's homework, she came over and stood next to me to look over my shoulder at it. The sides of our bodies made contact for a moment.
I highly doubt that she's responding consciously to my changes. I think it's simply a matter of her letting her guard down a little bit because I've been pushing my no-conflict attitude. Regardless, it's nice to see these little changes. I certainly don't pin my reconciliation hopes on them, but they're encouraging for the short term, so I will just keep on keeping on!
On Sunday I proposed to her that I would signing up to run an 8K down the shore at the end of April and asked if she would be interested in us all going as a family so the kids could enjoy the boardwalk after the race was over. We would need to go down the night before and get a hotel since the race starts early in the morning. She said, "Sure, that's sounds fun!"
I plan to approach her tomorrow and ask if she has any interest in us doing something together one night soon without the kids. I will stress that it won't be anything romantic, just something light and fun. We'll see how that goes.
In the meantime my schedule is filling up with various musical events. So in addition to work, kids, training for an 8K, projects at home, and church. I have songs to practice and new people to get in touch with.
Seems like my focus is finally shifting from my sitch to just me, and it feels pretty good so far!
Anyway, that brings me up to date. Hope everyone is hanging in. I'll update this thread again if/when things progress.
I plan to approach her tomorrow and ask if she has any interest in us doing something together one night soon without the kids. I will stress that it won't be anything romantic, just something light and fun. We'll see how that goes.
Whats your rush?
Kaizen. That's a great question and in thinking it over I don't have a good answer. I guess I have a tendency to want to take advantage of situation where I feel like I'm gaining some momentum. But taking it slow is probably the best move. Thanks!
I've spent a lot of time on this board looking for sympathy and advice as a man who has been cheated on and betrayed. I've done a lot of wife bashing and presenting my case for why I'm in the right and now doing the noble thing to save my relationship and keep my family together.
But in an effort to get more in touch with the complexity of my situation and see things from my W's point of view, I wrote the following essay (on my phone, on the train this morning on the way to work), and wanted to share it with you all.
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The argument for my W as the the one who was betrayed.
This isn't an essay about what my W did wrong. It's only about what I did wrong.
I didn't have a physical or emotional relationship with someone else. I had a physical and emotional relationship with myself.
I wasn't abusive. I was supportive. I was a good father. But I wasn't a good husband.
I neglected the relationship, assuming that it would always be there. I never nurtured it. I was always attached to my former life of "being able to do whatever I want." A life that shifted into high gear when I turned 30 and had my own apartment. But frankly it was a life that I had led to a certain extent since I was born.
From 2008 to 2016
Once the kids were born, I focused on the time each day when I would get my life back for a few hours before I was too tired. Sometimes I would wish/hope that I could stay awake longer than my W so that I could sneak down to the basement to play video games, work on my website, watch movies or watch porn. I never devoted any energy to our relationship unless it suited me. Holidays, birthdays, anniversaries... I made them about me, instead of us or (god forbid), her!
When I wasn't focused inward and self-absorbed, I focused my energy on the kids, choosing to put the marriage on pause in favor or the more pressing responsibilities of raising our kids. In the back of my mind I assumed that my W felt the same way and that we would "pick up where we left off once the kids were bit more self-sufficient." But this was an incorrect assumption.
Our relationship drifted apart and we lost all emotional connection. As terrible as this was on it's own, it got worse because along with my self absorption came a general disinterest in doing anything more than the bare minimum around the house to get by. My W became mother to a third child and took on all the "executive" responsibilities our our family. I was a willing employee "most" of the time but even when I was, I adopted an attitude of resentment when there was extra work around the house that was left for me. "I go to work all day to financially support this family," was my argument.
My family, particularly my mother, reinforced this position, which made it all the more justifiable.
Meanwhile, my W was dealing with more and more stress. Taking care of two kids with someone else's mother interfering. Running a business. Dealing with mother who was dying. And I was there for her physically... I was always home, never out late with friends. Never cheating. Never abusive or bad tempered. But I wasn't "there" for her emotionally. She battled through most of the stress alone. She had lost touch with most of her old friends by now and craved company and social situations. Something that I wanted no part of, and I never made the effort to change my position on this for her sake.
When we did get involved in social situations, my attitude was always a crap shoot. More often than not my W had to make concessions for me by socializing exclusively with me, deciding to leave the gathering early, or just opting out of going entirely.
Meanwhile, if the social situation revolved around my side of the family, I was Mr. social. And we spent many Sundays at my mom's pool with me doing nothing and my W doing everything to take care of dinner plans and getting the kids ready for bed before we left to go home.
My W's mom died in 2013. And along with the loss of her mother came the loss of her connection to the rest of her family. Just like me, they all focused inward and as much as my W tried to take over the role of keeping the family together, most of her efforts failed.
Two years after the death of her mother. Depression set in. Our relationship hadn't changed. I hadn't changed. And my W started to look at her life in terms of what was missing and how she wasn't getting any younger. She found an urgency for needing to be happy and emotionally connected to someone or something. And despite my behavior up until that point, she tried even harder to connect with me. But it didn't work. I was still set in my ways:
Self absorbed
Socially introverted
Shirking responsibility
I took on the role of roommate/brother/3rd child. This was not the type of person she wanted to connect to. So she regressed, and discovered unresolved love with someone from her past. They began talking as friends but inevitably because of their past the relationship this evolved into something more.
This was the point when my W was throwing the most obvious signals at me and I still wasn't responding. So she gave up and gave in to her desires. As much as my W's value system advised her against betraying our marriage, in her mind I had already betrayed the marriage long ago.
What happened next and since is well documented.
And now that I'm FINALLY starting to make positive/lasting changes that I feel are genuine, I'm resentful that my W isn't responding. Meanwhile, why SHOULD she respond? It has taken 8 years, the deterioration of our relationship and the threat of divorce for me to finally wake up to these problems.
So whenever I wonder:
Why she's acting the way she is now?
Why is she being so stubborn?
Why won't she soften her heart to the idea of a reconciliation?
Why is she being so cruel and heartless?
I need to read this again and remember that her selfishness really only started a few months ago compared to the 8 years that I assumed that role.
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Chris73,
Wow, brave, humble, honest! I've thought many of these things, but haven't had the discipline to write them down. Step 1 of every 12 step program is admitting you have a problem. I congratulate you. You are inspiring to me. You are a real...Superman!
So, assume you didn't see things this way before BD, right? You thought everything was fine? Since you've gained this perspective, how many of these thoughts have you ever shared with your W (not saying that you should or shouldn't have)? If you haven't, when, if ever, is it appropriate to share them?
Thanks Gordie!
I can't say that I didn't acknowledge that there was a problem before the BD but I certainly didn't realize how bad it was. In fact, we were on an upturn about a month before the BD. I was really starting to listen and taking stock in what my W was complaining about.
But then I discovered her A and the bottom dropped out of everything. I'm convinced that she would have kept the affair quiet if I hadn't discovered it on my own. I really don't know where we'd be right now if I hadn't discovered it. Maybe better, but maybe not. For me I think it took something as drastic as an affair and the threat of divorce for me to REALLY make changes.
My W and I have discussed a few of these but not to the extent that this essay describes. Right now the two of us are in a very low-conflict state which is mostly due to the fact that I've put all the R problems aside and have just focused on trying to reconnect with her.
But one day soon I hope to sit down with her and share these details. I'm also trying to keep a running list of the specific instances when I exhibited these behaviors. At the moment I have 8 of them listed, but I'm sure I can come up with another 20 easily!
I don't know. Introspection is good, taking accountability is good, making changes that need to be made because you don't want to be the person you were, also good.
But at least 2 other men? We're not talking moral equivalency here, not by a long shot. She isn't a long-suffering WAW at this point; she crossed into WW territory some time ago and still lives there, and I just don't think you can mea culpa her back into your marriage at this point. Those rules of Sandi's -- that's where you want to be looking, I think.
A lot of your post really resonated with me. My WH checked out after desperately trying to get sex/physical affection with me. I was so tired after a long day at work and then handling the bulk of the child care evenings. I still wrestle with my resentment occasionally but overall I have set our R aside and like you, focusing on rebuilding our connection. It seems to be working.
But at least 2 other men? We're not talking moral equivalency here, not by a long shot. She isn't a long-suffering WAW at this point; she crossed into WW territory some time ago and still lives there, and I just don't think you can mea culpa her back into your marriage at this point. Those rules of Sandi's -- that's where you want to be looking, I think.
Valid points JRuss. And the purpose of my post was certainly not to give my W a pass. It was really just an exercise that I used on Tuesday when I was feeling overly resentful. To try to look at things from her point of view because I felt like I was spending too much energy on my "holier than thou" attitude. After 45 minutes of non-stop journalling I read what I wrote and found it very helpful in softening my heart a little. So I thought sharing it here would help validate my feelings a bit more and possibly help those on the board who might be feeling the same way.
For me the idea of "lovingly detaching" means that I have to find a way to get rid of the resentful and all the other negative thoughts about my sitch that are pre-occupying my mind. These thoughts become obsessive and ruin my mood, which in turn affects my outward behavior. When these obsessive thoughts take over I find that there's no room for anything else.
So I continue to work on coping mechanisms to defuse these obsessive negative thoughts. There's really no way that I can make any GAL progress if I'm constantly hung up on, "where is she? what is she doing? who is she with? what is she thinking?"
I am still very guarded about if/how the relationship is going to be reconciled, but make no mistake, I am still fully committed to making it happen. I've done a lot of of wrestling with my ego, motivations, desires, and values over the past few weeks and I've come to the conclusion that the damage I've endured by my W's recent (and ongoing) behavior has not (yet) reached "deal breaker" status.
I have analyzed all of the logistical, financial, and emotional effects of dissolving my marriage and I want no part of it. It goes against my core principles. I will not help to facilitate a divorce in any way. It only takes one person to get a divorce, and that person won't be me.
On the subject of OM, my philosophy is this: Either she telling the truth (and there are no OM) or she's lying. Either way it's good for me because any relationship that is built on a foundation of lies and deception will never last. The minute she starts to try to legitimize an affair with me is when we'll have a problem.
Obviously this is personal decision that won't resonate with everyone and some of you might consider me a sucker or a doormat. And that's totally ok. I respect everyone's opinion on the board because the bottom line is that we're all here to try to help each other.
If the past 10 months have taught me anything it's that I don't need my W to be happy and I'm very excited about the GAL progress that I have made recently. But the reality is that I love my W very much, I want to stay married to her, and I want to keep my family intact.
A very wise person advised me that, "If you get to the point when you think you're DONE and ready to walk away... give it another year. Spend that year doing everything you can to improve yourself, fix your issues, and reconnect with your wife. Make it your top priority. When things seem hopeless remind yourself that you're not just doing this for your current relationship but for the next one as well."
Today was a good day.
Everyone was home because of the snow. Believe it or not, with nothing to do and nowhere to go in the morning, my W and I actually sat on the couch and talked for a good hour. Nothing about the R or the logistics of who will be home and who won't. Instead we talked about the state of the country and politics. And I was relieved that despite all the other things that have changed in my W over the past year, we still agree on politics!
Tuesdays and Thursdays are normally her days to work late. Over the past 2 months that we've been "separated," (I've now decided to put that term in quotes because she's the only one describing our situation that way) she usually finishes up work around 8pm but doesn't ever show up back at our house until close to midnight. She did that just 2 days ago. But tonight she came home right after work and spent some time trying to fix the pinched nerve in my neck (she's a massage therapist, btw). I was very happy that she agreed to do this since it requires her to touch me voluntarily. I realize the touching is somewhat clinical, but if she is truly turned off by me (as she's claimed in the recent past) she would have never volunteered to do this for me.
Next week we swapped our days because she's going out Monday night to paint night and does not have to work late on Tuesday (which just happens to be Valentines day). I've been encouraging her to start going back to the paint night because 1) none of her "girls gone wild" friends will go 2) there's no alcohol 3) it brings her joy and makes her feel closer to her mom (who died 3 years ago). All good things!
But the interesting thing is that even though I'm "supposed" to stay out late on Tuesday she told me that she'd be making dinner and invited me to come home early to join her and the kids. I will definitely NOT be making a big deal about Valentines day. Just cards from the kids.
These small accomplishments are keeping me motivated so I'll take them wherever I can get them. I just have to keep reminding myself that the immediate goal is for us to reconnect and create an environment of low-conflict in our house. Sometimes I want to speed things up and try to push the R into something more, but I know now (because I've tried this and failed too many times) that this won't work.
I read a quote the other day that said, "You can't talk your way out of a situation that you behaved yourself into."
Man does that describe ME to a T!
Sounds like a great day and a great PMA. I'm glad your W talked to you and didn't think you had cooties today. Remember to keep your expectations at zero.
Can't think of anything more depressing than picking out Valentine's Day cards for my W from the kids and passing over all the ones that would no longer be appropriate from me. Just one year later...
I was thinking the same thing...then it struck me she had this plotted last V day too...I just didn't know it yet...so sad...I feel like a sucker...
Hi All. Just a quick post looking for some encouragement.
Things have been going well between my W and me. We had a good weekend with many friendly encounters. But I'm too eager to take this momentum as an indicator to push for more or go faster, and I know that would be a huge mistake. Meanwhile, it feels like months have passed since I started trying this new approach to my saving my marriage and yet it's only been a couple weeks and I'm exhausted! And despite having a long list of things to do that will distract me from my sitch, this morning I'm just not motivated to do any of it. I haven't slept well the past few nights and this is obviously contributing to my slump.
I'm also very worried about my W. A couple weeks ago she found a lump under her upper arm. Many years ago she had one in the same spot. A biopsy revealed it as benign and it was removed. Today she is going for an ultrasound to get more information on this new lump. I know she's really scared (as am I), and I'm trying to find the right way to support her through this.
This is really the hardest I've ever worked at something and I'm happy that I'm making progress. I guess it's just the Monday morning blues. I know I need to snap out of it, but I felt like venting and you folks on the board are my only outlet at the moment.
Chris,
You are doing great! I know this is exhausting to keep going so do try and take some breaks for yourself away from the situation--even if for a few hours.
I'm sorry about your W. Have you asked your W if she would like you to go with her? Have you read txhubby? I think the same thing happened to his W and it led to their R.
Thanks Gordie. I did ask her a few times over the past couple of weeks if she wanted me to go with her to the Dr and she's always said no. She would've said no even if we had a normal happy marriage. She's very stubborn and guards her emotions. I wrestled with the idea that I should just be aggressive and go with her, but I think that would do more harm than good. It wouldn't be respectful of her wishes.
I just went back a looked over my notes. It's only been 17 days since I decided to put the problems aside and start reconnecting. How could I expect that anything could change that quickly? I must be nuts!!
I'll search through txhubby's posts and see if I can find anything related to this.
Txhubby - it's in his initial posts from years ago when he is introducing his situation (he came here already reconciled).
Hey Chris,
I also experienced the desire to rush in the beginning. With me I would sabotage by demanding shows of remorse when WH was still deciding if he wanted to even be IN our marriage. I think I had at least three false starts before I started getting it right. Like you, I would go over my notes and pay attention to the dates and marvel how it felt like forever and would only be weeks.
This is a marathon, brother. Make sure you talk to your friends, spend sometime just yapping about whatever is your zen. You need these moments to replenish your batteries, this is not a sport for the meek. But the good news is, it's largely successful if you have the endurance and the strength to build yourself into a better person.
Thanks PsySara. I have to admit that I've had more false starts than I can count. But this time it seems to be really sticking. My mistakes have been fewer and less detrimental to my progress. Sometimes I feel like I'm up against a deadline... my W mentioned that she wanted to wait until after the school year was over before we made any more changes to our relationship. But deep down I know that I can't control whether or not she decides to file when the summer comes.
I do see changes in my W's behavior. Not necessarily related to her feeling differently about me, but I have to believe that the change that I have made is affecting her at least a little bit. One thing I've noticed is that she's starting to calm down a little bit with the whole "girls gone wild" thing. Coming home a little earlier. Not drinking as much (thank God!). Complaining to me about how some of her girlfriends are a little too out of control.
She even suspended her Facebook account today because "it was too much" and she was "spending too much time on it". Now of course there are plenty of OTHER reasons why she would suspend her Facebook account and don't think I haven't obsessed over them (like I do with everything else). But I'm finding out these days that obsessing about things I can't change only distracts me from my goals. So I try to snap myself out of it as often as I can.
Last night after work my W went to a painting class with friends that I consider a bit more stable (although, what the h3ll do I know right?). She got home at a reasonable hour, came downstairs to show me what she painted and then said goodnight. None of these actions were necessary, but I'm encouraged that she's reacting somewhat positively to my efforts to re-connect.
Today will be a bit odd considering it's Hallmark holiday about love. But she told me she was cooking and invited me to come home in time to join her and the kids. I had the kids make her Valentine's Day cards, and there's one from me too but it's not romantic in the least, just funny. The one thing I can always count on is that I can make her laugh.
So we'll see how that goes tonight. I'm looking forward to a nice sit-down meal with the family.
Oh, btw. My W's ultrasound came back negative of anything suspicious. So there's something to celebrate!
Great news on the positive developments and your W's health! Telling you her other friends are too much? That one really stuck out to me. Enjoy your V day with your family.
I just want to take a moment to say that this $hit is effed up!
It's Valentine's Day and my beautiful wife, who I would go to the ends of the earth for, is sleeping alone upstairs while I sit down here posting on a divorce discussion board.
1 year ago today she posted the following on my FB page:
"Happy Valentine's Day to the best husband and father a girl could ask for. I love you to the moon and back."
What a difference a year makes!
Ok, pity party over. Good night.
Dude...that just makes my heart break for you...so effed up!
Thanks Gordie.
Despite this, it was a good evening overall. My wife cooked a fantastic dinner. Steaks (I grilled them) with mushrooms, shrimp, Brussels sprouts, and heart shaped pasta with butter and cheese. I brought home dessert. Kids were in good spirits. We all had a good time. Felt like normal.
At the end of the night I said, "I'm going to watch some TV in the living room if you want to join me." She did. We talked for a bit and then watched an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm (which is always good for a laugh) before going to bed. We haven't done that in months.
Every day I get a little better at letting go of what my life used to be like and just enjoying what it is now. Last night was hard though, but I kept a smile on my face and a spring in my step.
Steaks (I grilled them) with mushrooms, shrimp, Brussels sprouts, and heart shaped pasta with butter and cheese. I brought home dessert.
Chris73,
You're evil. Even so, I'm glad you had a good evening. But, next time tell us that you had Spam and cauliflower.
Hi Chris73,
I'm new to the website yesterday, but as I've read back through your thread, I just wanted you to know that so much of what you've said there gave me such encouragement in my own daily struggle. I'm sorry your Valentine's night left you feeling a little blue. It's a hard day to be heart hurting. But the meal does sound delicious! Keep hanging on.
Chris73 - sounds like you and I are on slightly similar paths - although in my case W has opened the door stating that her A is over, but on the other hann we are still physically separated. We have definitely been growing as "friends" over the last 6 weeks and did have the opportunity to hold her hand this past weekend but not so sure she was completely "on board" with it.
You brought up a good reminder that I haven't exactly been practicing - avoid the problem solving right now - so glad I came across your post.
Keep up the good work - I think being friends but with boundaries can only help.
V-Day sucked for me too... but it sucked last year too.
PacLove. Glad to hear that your sitch is improving. It's really tough work we're doing. For me, putting our problems on a shelf and focusing on reconnecting has been the best thing I've ever done. I can't say that I'm fully detached, my thoughts and behaviors are still emotionally attached to the where/what/why of my W's behaviors. But I'm getting better.
In my particular situation, detaching doesn't necessarily equate to disconnecting or going dark. My W and I still live together, at first I chose to see that as a burden, the constant reminder of everything I had lost. This made me bitter and resentful. So I pulled back, kept my contact and conversations with her to a minimum, and made an effort to ensure that we rarely occupied the same space in the house when the kids weren't around. The problem with this is that from my W's perspective it was just "more of the same" behavior from me that she had been putting up with for years.
Once the holidays were over I did a lot of soul searching and decided to see the "separated but still living together" situation as an advantage. Many of the things I'm doing these days to try to reconnect with my W would be impossible if we were physically separated. And I've noticed a difference in her mood in just a couple of weeks.
We may never reconcile, but it won't be for a lack of trying on my part. And regardless of what happens we have to be nice to each other for the sake of our kids. So that's enough incentive for me right now.
Chris73,
I've been following you closely...love your progress reports and what you are doing...keep it up...
You've noticed a difference in her mood? How does this show in her actions?
How does your change in behavior affect your mood (independent of your W)?
Once the holidays were over I did a lot of soul searching and decided to see the "separated but still living together" situation as an advantage. Many of the things I'm doing these days to try to reconnect with my W would be impossible if we were physically separated. And I've noticed a difference in her mood in just a couple of weeks.
I think had I chosen to do this instead of pursue and snoop early enough we probably would have avoided physical separation - unfortunately I was too wrecked emotionally at the time to completely pull back and the wheels were in motion for her already to move out. I was convinced of the A and was trying to do everything possible to prove it to her that I knew.
I think had I chosen to do this instead of pursue and snoop early enough we probably would have avoided physical separation
I'm with you 100% man. I was a snooping maniac for quite a while after the A was revealed. Eventually my W got tired of it and pulled further away. The information I got from snooping was circumstantial and certainly didn't make me feel any better. Information and trust are two different things.
I swore off ALL snooping only a few weeks ago. There wasn't much left to snoop, my W changed all her pwds. But I was still doing things like looking in her purse, looking through her closets and jewelry drawers, and being all consumed with where she was when she wasn't home. I still catch myself doing these things and try to stop immediately.
You've noticed a difference in her mood? How does this show in her actions?
Little things. The hostile environment in the house has been totally defused. She smiles at me more. Her tone of voice has changed on the phone. We always say good night to each other. She has been sharing more with me about what she's up to when she goes out. She's been doing more things for me than before. One night I came home a little earlier than she expected and she and the kids had started dinner late and were still sitting at the table. Without me asking she got up and fixed me a plate. Again, it's all little things, but they add up. If you consider the "emotional bank account" theory, small gestures hold just as much weight as large ones. And perhaps small gestures are better because you can do them more frequently.
How does your change in behavior affect your mood (independent of your W)?
This is the biggest change. Way more than the dynamic between the two of us. Putting our problems on the shelf lifted a huge weight off my shoulders. I still experience bouts of melancholy related to my sitch (Valentine's Day night was a good example), but generally my mood has evened out and I typically have a skip in my step. Time will tell how long this will last, but I'm going with it for now. Enjoying what I have instead of stressing over what I've lost and/or might never get back.
Good for you for stopping the snooping - I too was obsessed for a while, it's really hard to pull away... and yes it definitely pushes them away further. I only wish I could rewind and do it all over again, but content with where I am now as I've taken the time off/separated to really work on myself, which I may not have done had she stuck around.
I've taken the time off/separated to really work on myself, which I may not have done had she stuck around.
This is the paradox that's hard to live with. I never in a million years would have wanted it to come to this, but there may have been no other way for me to see what I really needed to do to change and make the changes stick.
Recovering this morning from an awesome GAL weekend. 2 nights in a row of going out and playing guitar. Saturday night was an open mic/song circle, last night was an open blues jam. Had a blast both nights, made some new friends, and forgot about my troubles for a while.
W's behavior has been interesting lately. She's pulling back a bit and becoming slightly argumentative in our conversations. Nothing that would start a fight, but just enough for me to notice. I haven't changed my behavior at all... Still pleasant, still trying to connect, still remaining neutral with her social life choices, and staying out of her business. So I think she's probably testing me a bit. Trying to get me to show some of my old behaviors. So far it hasn't worked. If she starts to debate me on something I respond with some sort of validation and let the topic drop.
Yesterday she and a girlfriend drove down to Baltimore for an overnight. They met up with other "girlfriends" once they got down there. Were there men involved? Who knows. She would say "no" if I asked her, but I wouldn't believe her anyway. So I'm trying hard not to care that much (or at the very least, interrupt my thoughts with something positive if my mind starts going down a bad path).
Ultimately, I don't think knowing the truth would be of any benefit to me. Trust has been broken, she's not doing anything to try to rebuild it, and if she really IS involved in a romantic relationship with someone else she's definitely keeping it a secret from most of the people in her life, and relationships with foundations based in deception never last.
In other news, after a lot of soul-searching I decided to tell my mother about my sitch. I know this is typically frowned upon but the level of deception was getting out of hand. My mom has done so much over the past 8 years to help and support our family and suddenly she's being cut out of the loop without any good reason. Trying to make up excuses for why the dynamic had changed was becoming arduous, so I sat her down yesterday and gave her the story in broad strokes. No discussion about cheating or any of the other things that might change her opinion of my W, but simply that we're having problems and that my W is unhappy.
Obviously she was upset, but also very supportive. I swore her to secrecy and insisted that her behavior toward my W should not change at all, and I trust that she will abide by this. She a very wise, compassionate, and level-headed woman. It's great to have another support person in my corner and I'm happy to get rid of the stress of hiding it from her. The news wasn't a surprise to her. Anyone who spends as much time interacting with our family as my mom does would notice that something is wrong.
Anyway, time will tell if I made the right decision. It's definitely a betrayal of my W's confidence and probably a bit selfish of me to unburden some of this on to my mother. But I think continuing to lie and leaving her in the dark to wonder what was going on wasn't really fair.
I swore off ALL snooping only a few weeks ago. There wasn't much left to snoop, my W changed all her pwds. But I was still doing things like looking in her purse, looking through her closets and jewelry drawers, and being all consumed with where she was when she wasn't home. I still catch myself doing these things and try to stop immediately.
This is my particular poison also. Even after my DB coach told me to stop doing it, I still even checked her phone yesterday while she was in the garden... just pressed the home key twice to see that Skype was in her active apps. Couldn't really read much of what she was saying. It's just a peculiar form of masochistic self flagellation, maybe reinforcing that I can be the victim.
I need to shed this victim mentality. Leave that to her. It's all straight out of the 'Drama triangle' and we're all vying for the victim position. Every time her phone is unattended and I don't snoop, I see that as a small victory.
Every time her phone is unattended and I don't snoop, I see that as a small victory.
^^This 100 times over!!
Mine even went so far as to turn off message preview and lay the phone face down when she's not holding it or it's not in her pocket. Secretly I'm glad she does. Every time her phone vibrates or dings with another txt my eyes shoot over to see if I can catch a glimpse of who it is or what it says. If she ever leaves the phone face up I start reading into it... "Maybe she's inviting me to trust her again." It's ridiculous, there's nothing to read into. She just didn't think to turn it over, that's all.
Clearly I'm not fully detached, but I think that noticing my automatic habits and identifying them for what they are is progress from where I was 6 months ago.
Day 26 since I started my new approach with my W and my life.
Lots of emotional ups and downs lately and it's very frustrating to work so hard every minute of every day and not see any results. It's also very hard to watch my W continue to embrace her selfish "girls gone wild" lifestyle and not show any signs of remorse or slowing down.
But I've been reading so many stories on here from people who are dealing with much harder situations that me. Particularly those who are physically separated from their spouses and possibly their kids as well. And so, with my W making no visible effort to move forward with divorce, mediation discussions, or physical separation, I feel like I must use this time to my advantage and continue my parallel efforts of lovingly detaching/GAL and trying to reconnect with her in a way that seems natural and infers no expectations on my end.
This morning I was feeling very down and discouraged so I jotted down a list of affirmations and intentions to read regularly in the hopes of keeping me focused.
Just a disclaimer: Some will read this list and insist that I'm enabling cake eating, which is fine. I respect that opinion. But I have taken all of the advice from this board and combined it with the advice from my DB coach, my therapist, the reverend at my church, a few very close friends, books/articles outside of the DB community, and most importantly what feels right to me in my heart. And I'm very happy with how this approach makes ME feel.
Ok, here's the list:
1. I am committed to saving my marriage
2. I will always be positive and happy in my W's presence
3. I will strive to take an aggressive and pro-active approach to the activities related to taking care of our house and our kids. (This is a huge 180 for me)
4. I will not start any discussions about the state of our marriage
5. I will stop what I'm doing, listen attentively, and make eye contact whenever my W engages me in conversation
6. I will not make sarcastic comments
7. I will not blame her or make her feel guilty
8. I will not spy on her or ask her for details of where she's been or who she's been with
9. I will focus on fixing my own problems
10. I will find other things/activities/people in my life to make me happy and provide me with a distraction from my situation
11. I will take every available opportunity to initiate fun/light conversation with my W
12. I will try to make non-threatening physical contact with my W
13. I will try to invite my W to do fun things with me and not react negatively if she says no
14. I will NOT move out of my house
15. I will NOT discuss anything related to the state of her love life (or sex life) with other men
16. I will NOT help facilitate any effort to move towards divorce
17. I will NOT evaluate her responses to my actions as an indicator of their effectiveness
18. I will remember to count the days and remind myself that this is a marathon, not a sprint.
That's all I have. I think the list is pretty thorough, but I'm sure I'll revise it as time goes by.
Comments are ALWAYS appreciated!
Chris,
I just started posting but I have been at this for almost 2.5 years and you are right it is a marathon. Just when you think you can't do it anymore just think of your kids and they will give you the strength.
If it makes you feel any better, I have been walking a similar path...for many of the same reasons. My wife has moved out, but she isn't nearly as wild, at least not to my knowledge.
Seems to be working ok, but I do struggle with the idea that I am enabling her behavior and setting myself up for a crappy relationship if she ever comes back.
Miky. Frankly I don't know how "wild" her social life is either, but I have to assume the worst.
But my list of affirmations only apply to my current situation, which is that my wife is not making any effort at all to work on the marriage. If she were to ever come to me and discuss the idea of piecing, many things would have to change. Primarily the issue of trust. She will have to start from scratch to restore trust between us.
12. I will try to make non-threatening physical contact with my W
13. I will try to invite my W to do fun things with me and not react negatively if she says no
I think most of this is good. And in general, I agree with much of the content.
I just want to point out that I think 'try' is kind of a meaningless word. How can you gauge if youve 'tried'? Can you phrase these more so that you can tell for yourself whether or not youve succeeded?
Miky. Frankly I don't know how "wild" her social life is either, but I have to assume the worst.
But my list of affirmations only apply to my current situation, which is that my wife is not making any effort at all to work on the marriage. If she were to ever come to me and discuss the idea of piecing, many things would have to change. Primarily the issue of trust. She will have to start from scratch to restore trust between us.
I understand, and I feel the same way...
I guess what I meant, though, is that taking a softer approach does run the risk of making you appear weak (emphasis on the word appear, because I realize it is anything but) and doesn't leave you with much leverage if she does decide to come back because she knows she has the upper hand.
At least that's my fear...of course, what I hope happens is she wakes up and is herself again, and her remorse/empathy for what she put her family through overrides any of the more selfish tendencies. Probably unrealistic, but a guy can dream.
And, just a small update and maybe some encouragement. Last night, as she was leaving she gave me a hug and told me she loved me. Was the first non-accidental and unprompted I love you in roughly 6 months.
Right. Thanks Kaizen. Perhaps "attempt" is a better word...or maybe still a little ambiguous?
I "attempt" number 12 every time the two of us are in each other's presence. She has never made a move to pull away, but sometimes the attempts fail simply because we're not close enough to each other at the time. Making an obvious effort to walk across the room just to rub her shoulder would seem forced.
13 is more of a weekly thing. Sometimes it's spontaneous like, "I'm going to go watch some tv in the living room if you'd like to join me." Other times I've invited her ahead of time to do something with me...to be courteous of her calendar).
So maybe:
12. I will attempt to make non-threatening physical contact with my W whenever we're together
13. I will invite my W to do fun things with me at least once/week and not react negatively if she says no
I guess what I meant, though, is that taking a softer approach does run the risk of making you appear weak (emphasis on the word appear, because I realize it is anything but) and doesn't leave you with much leverage if she does decide to come back because she knows she has the upper hand.
The "upper hand" idea is something that I've been struggling with for a long time, and I've come to the conclusion that it's really an ego problem for me. I could make arguments as to why I have the upper hand. I could also make arguments that my W will ALWAYS have the upper hand because she's a woman and brings home about 25% of the income I bring home.
But this just continues to promote the "me vs. her" mentality, which really doesn't work for me. I spent a lot of energy between Nov and Jan trying to get the upper hand and all it did was stress me out and make me more resentful.
The loss of all physical and emotional intimacy with my W after 12 years of being together still gets to me sometimes and I go through periods of sadness. But being loving, kind, and helpful towards her no matter what actually helps ME feel better.
At least that's my fear...of course, what I hope happens is she wakes up and is herself again, and her remorse/empathy for what she put her family through overrides any of the more selfish tendencies. Probably unrealistic, but a guy can dream.
I'm certainly dreaming of the same outcome, but a reconciliation for me means starting over completely. I don't think my W and I could ever go back to the way things used to be. Trust has been broken on both sides and we will need to re-establish our relationship based on interdependence instead of codependence.
My W clearly has a secret life. It's evident in her actions. It might be as harmless as hanging out with new friends just to rediscover what makes her happy. Or she could be in a relationship with another man. Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.
Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now. But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.
When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.
It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.
And, just a small update and maybe some encouragement. Last night, as she was leaving she gave me a hug and told me she loved me. Was the first non-accidental and unprompted I love you in roughly 6 months.
This is my favorite part of your post miky!
*high five*
I can only hope that I can post this same news one day!
I guess what I meant, though, is that taking a softer approach does run the risk of making you appear weak (emphasis on the word appear, because I realize it is anything but) and doesn't leave you with much leverage if she does decide to come back because she knows she has the upper hand.
The "upper hand" idea is something that I've been struggling with for a long time, and I've come to the conclusion that it's really an ego problem for me. I could make arguments as to why I have the upper hand. I could also make arguments that my W will ALWAYS have the upper hand because she's a woman and brings home about 25% of the income I bring home.
But this just continues to promote the "me vs. her" mentality, which really doesn't work for me. I spent a lot of energy between Nov and Jan trying to get the upper hand and all it did was stress me out and make me more resentful.
The loss of all physical and emotional intimacy with my W after 12 years of being together still gets to me sometimes and I go through periods of sadness. But being loving, kind, and helpful towards her no matter what actually helps ME feel better.
At least that's my fear...of course, what I hope happens is she wakes up and is herself again, and her remorse/empathy for what she put her family through overrides any of the more selfish tendencies. Probably unrealistic, but a guy can dream.
I'm certainly dreaming of the same outcome, but a reconciliation for me means starting over completely. I don't think my W and I could ever go back to the way things used to be. Trust has been broken on both sides and we will need to re-establish our relationship based on interdependence instead of codependence.
My W clearly has a secret life. It's evident in her actions. It might be as harmless as hanging out with new friends just to rediscover what makes her happy. Or she could be in a relationship with another man. Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.
Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now. But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.
When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.
It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.
And, just a small update and maybe some encouragement. Last night, as she was leaving she gave me a hug and told me she loved me. Was the first non-accidental and unprompted I love you in roughly 6 months.
This is my favorite part of your post miky!
*high five*
I can only hope that I can post this same news one day!
I quite liked this post, and it echoes a lot of the same thoughts I have on the matter...which is why I have chosen to walk a similar path.
I could easily issue ultimatums, cut off contact, maybe even start convincing myself that the marriage was toxic (like she clearly had) in hopes of easing my detachment...but in the end all of these things seem more like tactics or defense mechanisms instead of real DBing. I will admit, when I am at my weakest, these seems like attractive options, but the just don't feel right.
I totally get where you are coming from about being true to yourself...where I seem to get stuck (and perhaps overthink it too much) is there seems to be a fine line between being caring and being an enabler. I am terrible with boundaries, especially with respect to her, so I'm sure I cross that line several times daily. It used to bother me a lot, and it still does from time to time...but I am getting better at cutting myself some slack. At least I am aware, and in the grand spectrum of character flaws I suppose enabler is definitely on the milder side.
Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.
Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now.
But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.
I will say that I dont think this makes you 'less of a man'. I think this is correct. All that imposing rules or timelines will do is force her to choose that lifestyle again and again.
When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.
It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.
Heres my concern. What exactly are your boundaries. What kinds of behaviors are you willing to accept before it becomes 'too much' and you need to protect yourself. Im not trying to advocate divorce, but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?
Or she could be in full-blown "pretending to be single" mode and having meaningless, selfish sex with every guy she meets.
Unfortunately I believe that this last one is the truth and it makes me want to vomit as I type it right now.
But the way I see it (and you can call me a fool or less of a man if you want to) giving her an ultimatum doesn't solve anything. Deep down she knows that her behavior is wrong and it's destroying our marriage, but she doesn't care. She has no inner motivation to change. And an ultimatum doesn't change that, it simply imposes rules from the outside.
I will say that I dont think this makes you 'less of a man'. I think this is correct. All that imposing rules or timelines will do is force her to choose that lifestyle again and again.
When she decides to really change she will come out of the fog and see me as man with integrity, who turned his attention inward and worked on himself to become a better man, husband, and father. Who always offered love, kindness, friendship, and respect to his W even when she didn't deserve it. A man who continued to nurture a meaningful connection with his W despite all obstacles.
It is my sincere hope that this happens before I have decided to move on. But if it doesn't, I've done the work I need to do to have a much more fulfilling relationship with another person.
Heres my concern. What exactly are your boundaries. What kinds of behaviors are you willing to accept before it becomes 'too much' and you need to protect yourself. Im not trying to advocate divorce, but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?
I have thought about this a lot, too...and the truth is I think you will know when you know. I feel like this approach is a transitional phase for those who aren't quite ready to completely detach or move to true LRT. If it works, great! If it doesn't, you can slowly detach and feel good about how you stayed true to yourself.
I think for me, the aha moment came when I realized that I needed to walk this path for me...to help ME deal with the situation. This should not be an effort or tactic to win your spouse back.
As for what I am willing and not willing to accept...I don't know that I really place conditions on it. All those seem to do is get me in trouble.
Great stuff to think about you guys. Thanks!
I will say that I do have a few boundaries in place. Some are obvious... abuse/neglect of my children, loss of control with alcohol or drugs, spending money out of control. None of these are happening right now. I must say that I was a little concerned about her alcohol consumption but it seems to have tapered off (at least in front of me). Meanwhile, she continues to work and contribute $ to the family, do her fair share of the chores around the house, cooks dinner for the kids (and me if I'm home), always comes home from wherever she goes to at night, takes good care of our kids, and goes to therapy once a week religiously.
The whole "girls gone wild" thing is mostly going on in my head based on assumptions I've made by observing her behavior. But I have no real proof that she's out of control when she goes out, I just assume the worst, which is probably the best thing for me to do.
As for other boundaries, there are 3 in my list above.
If my W ever starts talking to me about a man that she's involved with (perhaps in an attempt to legitimize the relationship) I plan to cut her off right away and tell her that this discussion crosses a boundary with me. She hasn't done this once yet.
The same goes for discussions about divorce. Not that I won't listen to her and try to validate her feelings if she brings up the subject. But asking me to help facilitate the legal process or voluntarily participating in mediation crosses the same boundary as leaving my home while we are still married. It goes against my principles and values.
but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?
See, I don't agree. I know everyone is different, but I'm learning that my sense of self has nothing to do with someone else's actions. Only how I respond to them. I love my W very much. She has issues that stem from way back. Never in her life has anyone ever fought for her or offered her emotional stability, and so she's running from it now. I've lived the first 42 years of my life always putting my needs first, being self-centered. So taking this stance is a huge growth opportunity for me. I refuse to be another person in her life who walks away from her. And that gives me an enormous sense of self-value.
but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?
See, I don't agree. I know everyone is different, but I'm learning that my sense of self has nothing to do with someone else's actions. Only how I respond to them. I love my W very much. She has issues that stem from way back. Never in her life has anyone ever fought for her or offered her emotional stability, and so she's running from it now. I've lived the first 42 years of my life always putting my needs first, being self-centered. So taking this stance is a huge growth opportunity for me. I refuse to be another person in her life who walks away from her. And that gives me an enormous sense of self-value.
Maybe Im not explaining things well. I agree that we get to choose how to treat other people. My ex did some pretty bad things, and I would say, through the whole thing, I was outwardly friendly. And I can say through the entire ordeal, I maintained my love for my ex.
That said, I wouldnt say that I always acted with kindness or friendship. I didnt want to be just a friend - I wanted to be a spouse. So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.
I guess to me, being all sunshine and roses regardless of what she does is not really be loving. To me, it's similar to a child throwing a tantrum; yes, you should maintain your emotional stability, yes you should remain calm, approachable, and friendly. But at the same time, you need to be able to be stern and say no, as necessary. Maybe thats what you are saying and Im misunderstanding. It just sounded like you are setting yourself up to be a doormat if you are going to show kindness and friendship regardless of what she does.
but I think on some level if you are ALWAYS offering love and kindness, then you arent really growing either. How can you continue to maintain your sense of self and sense of value?
See, I don't agree. I know everyone is different, but I'm learning that my sense of self has nothing to do with someone else's actions. Only how I respond to them. I love my W very much. She has issues that stem from way back. Never in her life has anyone ever fought for her or offered her emotional stability, and so she's running from it now. I've lived the first 42 years of my life always putting my needs first, being self-centered. So taking this stance is a huge growth opportunity for me. I refuse to be another person in her life who walks away from her. And that gives me an enormous sense of self-value.
Maybe Im not explaining things well. I agree that we get to choose how to treat other people. My ex did some pretty bad things, and I would say, through the whole thing, I was outwardly friendly. And I can say through the entire ordeal, I maintained my love for my ex.
That said, I wouldnt say that I always acted with kindness or friendship. I didnt want to be just a friend - I wanted to be a spouse. So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.
I guess to me, being all sunshine and roses regardless of what she does is not really be loving. To me, it's similar to a child throwing a tantrum; yes, you should maintain your emotional stability, yes you should remain calm, approachable, and friendly. But at the same time, you need to be able to be stern and say no, as necessary. Maybe thats what you are saying and Im misunderstanding. It just sounded like you are setting yourself up to be a doormat if you are going to show kindness and friendship regardless of what she does.
That's the line between being caring and being an enabler that I was talking about...and I feel like that line is different for everyone (and quite frankly may move in a specific relationship, depending on how the WS is acting).
Also, there is a difference between understanding and supporting. Just because you are kind, and maybe even happy or flirty...it doesn't mean you agree with or support their actions.
Thanks Kaizen. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to be helpful. I remember one time that the DB phone coach I talked to told me to treat her like my sister. I would invite my sister to a movie, and do her a favor if she asked me. I wouldn't be bothered by her actions unless they affected me directly, so I would not spy on her or give her the third degree about her whereabouts. I try to apply that concept as often as I can.
So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.
Could you give me an example of this? I'd like to understand the specifics of how you applied this way of behaving...
Thanks Kaizen. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to be helpful. I remember one time that the DB phone coach I talked to told me to treat her like my sister. I would invite my sister to a movie, and do her a favor if she asked me. I wouldn't be bothered by her actions unless they affected me directly, so I would not spy on her or give her the third degree about her whereabouts. I try to apply that concept as often as I can.
So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.
Could you give me an example of this? I'd like to understand the specifics of how you applied this way of behaving...
I guess my situation was a little different. I was physically separated from my ex before I found any of the DB information. But for me, at some point, I realized that I wasnt a babysitter and I didnt have to 'jump' any time I was told to.
So I stopped saying yes to every favor I was asked. I started doing what I wanted to. If I was free and wanted to do something fun with the kids, I did; if I had plans, then I didnt. One time my ex said "This [censored] that the kids are sick. I really cant take off work." and I validated, sure, but didnt offer to fill-in as babysitter if it was needed.
These are not great examples, I get that. My point is more that I stopped going out of my way to appease my ex. In your initial list, you said always treat your W with kindness. To me, that sounds like you are always going to be saying 'yes' to her, to do things that will make her happy. One of my greatest growth areas was learning how to say 'no'.
Thanks Kaizen. I appreciate the fact that you're trying to be helpful. I remember one time that the DB phone coach I talked to told me to treat her like my sister. I would invite my sister to a movie, and do her a favor if she asked me. I wouldn't be bothered by her actions unless they affected me directly, so I would not spy on her or give her the third degree about her whereabouts. I try to apply that concept as often as I can.
So if I was asked to do things as 'friends', then I did it on my terms. Because of the boundaries that I set for myself got crossed, then I enforced what I needed for myself through my actions.
Could you give me an example of this? I'd like to understand the specifics of how you applied this way of behaving...
I guess my situation was a little different. I was physically separated from my ex before I found any of the DB information. But for me, at some point, I realized that I wasnt a babysitter and I didnt have to 'jump' any time I was told to.
So I stopped saying yes to every favor I was asked. I started doing what I wanted to. If I was free and wanted to do something fun with the kids, I did; if I had plans, then I didnt. One time my ex said "This [censored] that the kids are sick. I really cant take off work." and I validated, sure, but didnt offer to fill-in as babysitter if it was needed.
These are not great examples, I get that. My point is more that I stopped going out of my way to appease my ex. In your initial list, you said always treat your W with kindness. To me, that sounds like you are always going to be saying 'yes' to her, to do things that will make her happy. One of my greatest growth areas was learning how to say 'no'.
I get what you are saying, and that totally makes sense.
I'm all for making a stand, but in my case at least...it needs to actually be for a reason and not just the sake of my ego or to not feel like a doormat.
I'll give you an example...In a past life, I used to be in a position where we, the customer, would review a vendor's work before taking delivery. It was a highly regulated industry and there were both black and white rules and more gray "best practices" that we used for acceptance criteria. Some of my peers would reject things based on the most minor of issues - things like spelling errors, illegible entries and other minor issues like grammar from a non-english speaker. I, on the other hand, chose to take a more risk based approach...major issues were addressed, and minor issues were tracked but I usually let them slide unless they were pervasive. What I found was that while my coworkers would struggle to get anything fixed, I had little trouble because vendors knew when I sent something back it was because something was really wrong...I wasn't on some sort of power trip and was logical in my actions.
The point of all that is...saying no is important. But I think it should be reserved for when you actually don't/can't want to do something. It shouldn't be used to punish or teach your wife a lesson. That, to me, is the line between kindness and enabling.
Thanks Guys. This is a great conversation. I value both of your opinions. You've given me a lot to think about...
Inspiring passage read in church today:
"People who are unable to stand within the dark places of life, those who are always running towards their happy places, are the same things as candles without flames.
There is no worth in a candle without a flame, and we only add the flame when there is darkness.
Without darkness, there would be no need for warriors or angles. Warriors are not made because the whole world is happy and angles were not formed because there are no demons.
Be of worth, have a flame"
--C. JoyBell C.
Have a great Sunday everyone!
Man, it's hard today. Feeling the pressure and the fatigue of all the hard work I've been putting in. Not discouraged in the least, just tired.
Last night I took my dad with me to the blues jam in town. On the way there he pressed me for information on the state of my marriage. This was prompted by the fact that my W is going on a trip to FL next week with her girlfriends. He wanted to know why I wasn't going. I told him that work wouldn't let me take the time off because of a project that we're really busy with this week. This isn't a lie, really I wouldn't have been able to go. But I left out the fact that I wasn't invited. I'm not a fan of dishonesty, but nothing good could come out of him knowing that my marriage is in trouble. The added stress isn't helpful though.
Tomorrow is my W's birthday. I left it up to her to make the decision about how much (or how little) she wanted to celebrate it. She opted to spend it at home with me and the kids and a few extended family members. I volunteered to cook and despite our less-than-ideal marriage situation I'm looking forward to it.
We've been getting along well and there's no doubt that she's paying very close attention to the "new me". Frankly, I don't know how you couldn't. The new me is so different from the old me. But it's only been 30 days since he's made his first appearance, so I have no expectations that she will outwardly react to my changes.
Need to return to my affirmations today...
journaling...
Today is my W's 46th birthday. Since we've spent the past month fostering a low-conflict environment and being friendly to each other, she expressed the desire to celebrate her birthday at home with the family (including me) and I volunteered to make dinner.
I decided to go with a Mardi Gras theme (since it just happens to be today) which I think will work out well because the spirit of Mardi Gras promotes a light and happy atmosphere.
I will go into this evening with zero expectations from her (as with everything these days). Frankly, I've worked pretty hard on the details for the dinner. And the old me would have been motivated to do so for the reciprocation from my W. These days, since I've been forced to expect nothing in the way of reciprocation from her, I find myself motivated to do things a bit more selflessly, not just for her, but for other people in my life.
I know that deep down my W is noticing my changes and wondering:
1. Why didn't he do this before? and
2. How long will this last?
I wish I could convince her that my changes are genuine, but this can only happen through the consistency of my actions. No amount of talking can reinforce the progress I'm making. I have to constantly remind myself of this and some days it's hard. I just want to scream at her "I FINALLY GET IT!!!"
I know I have to approach this sitch inch by inch and day by day. Every once in a while I'll look up at the horizon to visualize the end goal and then I'll look back down and keep moving forward. I think it helps to have short term goals though. These are mine:
1. Continue to work on fixing me and making attempts to reconnect with my W
2. Train for the 8K in April
3. Improve my blues guitar technique and continue to go out every week and play
4. Clean out my office to make space for my guitars and a section for meditation
That should hold me for the next 2 months.
You know, I never wanted this to happen to my marriage, but think it needed to happen...
Chris73,
I hope you're going to prepare a big king cake for your wife. It certainly sounds like cake is on the menu.
Chris,
I am afraid you are working yourself into a frenzy. You will burn out at this pace. Please take care of yourself first, do not wait around for your W. She will come to you if/when she is ready...
Chris,
not sure if you came across this exert from MWD's website - but thought it very interesting as it may relate to your Sich... I definitely feel my W and I are moving towards the friend zone but with OM out of the picture I hope we can someday move beyond that:
http://divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm
Chris,
not sure if you came across this exert from MWD's website - but thought it very interesting as it may relate to your Sich... I definitely feel my W and I are moving towards the friend zone but with OM out of the picture I hope we can someday move beyond that:
http://divorcebusting.com/a_while_spouse_decides.htm PacLove--that is awesome and inspiring but what many on the boards would call being a doormat or enabling cake eating. What do you think?
PacLove. Thank you for finding this article. Believe me I question my actions/methods every day and it's always good to find support/evidence that I've made the right decision for my sitch.
PacLove--that is awesome and inspiring but what many on the boards would call being a doormat or enabling cake eating. What do you think?
Gordie, this is one of the things I struggle with, especially on this board. I don't subscribe to the "tough love" (for lack of a better way to describe it) approach as it relates to MY sitch and I am very vocal about it here. I suspect this may be the reason why some of the board vets like Sandi2 have not contributed to my posts over the past month. In their eyes, why should they continue to give me advice when I'm not taking it? And I don't blame them at all for moving on to other board members who could benefit from their advice. I will continue to post my observations and progress here and I certainly let you all know if my "kill her with kindness" approach backfires.
But really, what qualifies as "backfiring?" What does "failure" look like for me? If I end up divorced, co-parenting, and contributing 75% of my paycheck to my W and kids, is THAT failure? And what about all the folks on this board who tried the tough love approach only to end up with this very result. Did they fail? I would say no, across the board. Failure to me is simply not trying. Everyone here is trying. We read the books and post on this board. We employ critical introspection in an attempt to fix and improve ourselves. Emerging as a stronger and healthier person from this challenging time, whether it results in a reconciliation or a divorce, is a success as far as I'm concerned.
My personal philosophy is that goodwill creates more goodwill. Marriage problems cannot be fixed if there is no goodwill or connection between the couple. If my W is being obstinate, I can still affect the dynamic between us by trying to create a connection through small but consistent actions of love and kindness. It's not easy and you have to constantly ego-check, but these actions will soften the heart. When my W emerges from her fog, she needs to see me as a man who has not only improved himself but also continued to nurture a friendship that provides a fertile ground for reconciliation.
Being a "doormat" suggests that someone else can rob you of your self-respect and dignity. But I would argue that no one can "take" away your self-respect. For me, doing everything you can to honor your commitment to your marriage despite all obstacles is a very dignified and honorable thing to do.
By the way, just a brief update on my W's birthday. Everything went great. We all had a fun and my W couldn't stop thanking me and complimenting me on what a great job I did on the dinner. I overheard her bragging about it to two of her friends in the days that followed. Yes, she did eat cake. We all did, and ice cream too!
That's so awesome. I am really rooting for you. And congratulations on a great birthday dinner. You are inspiring.
Thanks Gordie. I'll take the support wherever I can get it
But really, what qualifies as "backfiring?" What does "failure" look like for me? If I end up divorced, co-parenting, and contributing 75% of my paycheck to my W and kids, is THAT failure? And what about all the folks on this board who tried the tough love approach only to end up with this very result. Did they fail? I would say no, across the board. Failure to me is simply not trying. Everyone here is trying. We read the books and post on this board. We employ critical introspection in an attempt to fix and improve ourselves. Emerging as a stronger and healthier person from this challenging time, whether it results in a reconciliation or a divorce, is a success as far as I'm concerned.
I love this. I think the thing with the tough love vs. kill them with kindness approach? There of course is no right answer. I think DB approach is do what works; stop doing what doesn't work. And only you are in your shoes with your own conscience. To me, failure used to be D in any form, but I'm accepting that as you said, it's not. To me in my situation, failure is if my W and I are dishonest with one another or hate each other or can't stand to be in one another's presence and that our children experience a hot or a cold war for the next several decades. I can only control what I do, but really don't want that to happen. And winning? I guess my definition on that is expanding too. Of course, it could be busting the divorce or reconciling after divorce. But what if we wind up just as friends either as singles or remarried to other people? I used to count that as loss...but I guess I'm warming up to the idea that maybe that can be a win too, different than the life I'd planned, but a win nonetheless...as SBJ said, "Thy will be done..."
PacLove--that is awesome and inspiring but what many on the boards would call being a doormat or enabling cake eating. What do you think?
Chris - hope I'm not thread hijacking here but since I saw some great responses from you too think this is inline...
I like Chris and many others on here tried the tough love at first, now that W has come out of the Fog her first feedback to me was that I was being difficult and that I was pouring fuel on the fire of our relationship that was already suffering before the A. As a result I have a much deeper hole to dig myself out of (as does she).
I do think it's a very fine line though - you need to have boundaries where W is disrespecting you. A good example could be if she's picking a fight for no reason - instead of giving in, you could just turn away and say I'm not fighting with you right now.
Another example in my recent discussions with my W is that she's been trying to convince me to sell some of our assets and I basically turned to her and said I'm not making any big decisions until we decide on our future - I made too many of those already in the last year.
At the same time I've been working really hard at being a friend. A friend doesn't need to know where their friends are 24x7, they are there for you usually when needed, but not always if they have other plans.
I also think there's a fine line and a turning point... let me explain:
The fine line is when they are actively involved with someone else - here you need to be guarded with boundaries. You need to accept they are making choices you don't agree with - and there will be some consequences - for me it was not sharing the same bed. When she moved out and wanted to keep finances separate I drew up an agreement so we were both accountable to our financial obligations.
The turning point - and this is a tough one as you may not know when it is - is when they give up the OM. At this point they will be turning to you to see what their options are - this is, I believe, when you want to ease up on the boundaries a little and show more compassion and friendship. If you're Christian - I would remind you of the story of the Prodigal Son. Where the Father welcomes the lost son in with open arms. This won't be one moment - and your W could be assessing your behavior over months as she's trying to figure out her options and what she wants. The better friend you can be during this time will improve your odds.
Now friendship - especially if you have kids - can never be a bad outcome. I have talked with many people who have gone through a D and when kids are involved they all recommend trying to establish a healthy friendship for the sake of the children and co-parenting.
I similarly find it somewhat biased on these boards towards the tough love side, however much of the online reading I've done, books, MWD herself and the coaches, guide towards being a friend. I think in the end there's less damage to the relationship - the only question is how much damage do you do to your own self esteem/confidence in the process? As long as you can remain confident, change for the better and be the Man you want to be (and not what your wife wants) we are heading in the right direction.
Chris - hope I'm not thread hijacking here but since I saw some great responses from you too think this is inline...
Not a hijack at all. I'm glad to have an open discussion here.
...now that W has come out of the Fog her first feedback to me was that I was being difficult and that I was pouring fuel on the fire of our relationship that was already suffering before the A. As a result I have a much deeper hole to dig myself out of (as does she).
I found this to be the case with my W as well, although I wish I could say that she's come out of her fog.
The deciding factor for me was understanding what MY contribution was to the deterioration of our marriage. Once I realized that in her eyes, pulling back, being short with my words, doing my own thing, not starting conversations, treating her like a "nosey neighbor" and being very forceful with my boundaries (e.g. "If you're not happy then YOU should move out. This is my bed. If you're not comfortable sleeping in it, there's the couch", etc.) was really just more of the same behavior from me. So not only did my actions serve to reinforce her decision to leave, but it also created a hostile environment in our home and in front of our two children. I could not let that continue.
In addition to this, the other major complaint from my W over the years has always been that I don't take any initiative or responsibility for the house and the family. I took on the role of the 3rd child in the family, making the assumption that going to work and bringing home a paycheck was all I was required to do. This is not to say that I wouldn't help when asked, but she eventually burned out being the only one responsible for managing everything.
So here you have a self-centered, self-absorbed baby-man, who never really grew up and took responsibility for anything. My W simply replaced my mother. Did my W enable this behavior? Absolutely. Was choosing to have an A as a reaction to being unhappy a bad decision? Of course.
But regardless of who did what, the problems on my side need fixing. Will fixing them save my marriage? The jury is still out on that one. But the fixing needs to happen anyway. So MY 180 is to put myself last. Do things for my W and my family that have no expectations attached to them. Be aggressive in taking on projects and responsibilities around the house. Be happy, encouraging, and generally interested in my W and what she's up to. Be helpful. Treat her the way I want to be treated. Meanwhile, I don't pursue or discuss the relationship at all. And when I start to feel resentful or burned out, I turn to my GAL activities.
The changes I've seen are minor but they're noticeable. For one thing she comes home after work more often. I attribute this partially to the fact that she feels more comfortable in our house when I'm around. A few months ago she insisted that we establish a schedule so that we don't share a lot of time together with the kids (in an effort to "prepare" them for separation). This isn't happening anymore, our family time is a lot more spontaneous and doesn't adhere to a strict "visitation" schedule. She volunteers more information about where she's going and who she's with. Of course I don't trust that she's being totally honest. But it's way better than, "I'm going out," with no additional explanation.
So I guess my point is that right now I'm very much at peace with how I'm moving forward.
I suspect this may be the reason why some of the board vets like Sandi2 have not contributed to my posts over the past month. In their eyes, why should they continue to give me advice when I'm not taking it?
Chris, you used my name in the title of two threads......and that's fine. Whenever my name is used in the heading of someone's thread, I am humbled. I also know it draws attention.........especially when it states something like the great Sandi2 experiment.
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People want to see if the experiment worked....and if they can rely on what Sandi says. I can't remember if it was in the first thread or in part 2 with the same title, where you said you just didn't have it in you to apply a tougher love approach with your WW. If that is how a poster feels, I respect their decision, b/c it's their life to live, not mine.
I'll admit for almost two seconds, it did feel like a little slam, when I first saw the title of your next thread..... "Up Yours,, Sandi".......(jk) It really said, "Same Stitch, New Approach, Motivated, Feeling Good".
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If I may, I want to go on record as saying that my purpose for being on this forum is not for personal recognition, popularity, or whatever. Neither am I in any sort of competition with the advice of DB coaches. This is not my board, it belongs to MWD.
With all of that said, I wanted you to know that I still care, and have continued to read your thread, Chris. I have just remained quite, b/c I didn't want you to feel as if I was pressing you about something you didn't want to hear. As you've plainly stated, you are not taking my advice......so I'm not sure how to help you.
Hi Sandi2. Thanks for the response.
From the very first time that I read your posts (jeez like 4 months ago now) there was no doubt in my mind that you are sincere in your efforts to help, support, and share your knowledge with the rest of us on this board. A lot of what you have advised me to do has been helpful and I still employ those strategies today.
But please understand that I evaluate the advice that I glean from ALL the resources around me. This board being one but also the DB books, DB phone coaching, other reference materials, my therapist, the close friends that I've confided in, the reverend at my church, and most importantly my own heart.
"The Great Sandi2 Experiment" didn't fail, it just wasn't suited for me. Perhaps I was interpreting it wrong. Perhaps there's only a subtle difference between the things I'm doing now and the things I was trying to do when I was posting to that thread. All I know is, until the day when I decided to drop all the problems and try to reconnect with my W as a friend, I was miserable, angry, resentful, and full of fear. Clearly this is not the outcome any of us are looking for.
Bottom line Sandi2 is that you HAVE helped me a great deal. I still refer to the 37 rules for guidance and I still read your responses on other folks' threads to get your perspective. Thank you for your tireless efforts to help this community.
But regardless of who did what, the problems on my side need fixing. Will fixing them save my marriage? The jury is still out on that one. But the fixing needs to happen anyway. So MY 180 is to put myself last. Do things for my W and my family that have no expectations attached to them. Be aggressive in taking on projects and responsibilities around the house. Be happy, encouraging, and generally interested in my W and what she's up to. Be helpful. Treat her the way I want to be treated. Meanwhile, I don't pursue or discuss the relationship at all. And when I start to feel resentful or burned out, I turn to my GAL activities.
YAY! I haven't checked in with you for a while, but I can see the change in your tone in your posts. I will say that I disagree with your line about putting yourself last by taking initiative with responsibilities and with your attitude towards your WW. I think while it might seem on the surface that you're putting yourself last that you're actually doing things that will make you genuinely feel good about yourself regardless of your W's response.
Maybe that's how you meant it, but I don't want you to sell yourself short on the benefits to yourself that these changes can provide.
So I guess my point is that right now I'm very much at peace with how I'm moving forward.
Happy for you! Keep it up!
Thanks fightin. I guess what I meant is that putting myself last is part of my 180 because I have been so self-absorbed for so long. But you're right, it's more about putting my ego on the back burner than anything else. Thanks for the kind words.
Chris73 did your wife sleep in a different room? How do you cope?
WillDo...
When I confronted my W about OM1 for the 2nd time, she suggested a trial separation. I was emphatic about not moving out and suggested that SHE should if she wasn't happy, but she refused. I told her that I wouldn't let her kick me out of my bed, so she decided to sleep on the couch.
This lasted for about a month. Then one day she came to me to request that we switch sleeping arrangements. She would take the MBR and I would take the sectional in our finished basement. She made some very logical arguments: "You get up and leave for work before anyone else is awake. All your clothes are already down there and there's a 2nd full bathroom where you can shower. If our D5 wakes up in the middle of the night she always comes looking for me so I need to be on the same floor."
I validated her feelings but told her I wouldn't change my mind. Then she started spewing (just as Sandi2 had predicted). Told me that she wanted to throw a bottle at my head. Told me that this is EXACTLY what her friends told her I would do. Told me that this just proves to her that she's making the right decision.
And I have to admit, at that point I buckled. As much as I realize that I need to "man up" in a lot of ways, it's just not in my nature to respond to that level of venom and anger with more of the same. This was not a fight I wanted to win. It wasn't even a fight I wanted to keep fighting. So I gave her the bed and took the sectional in the basement.
The next day I had a phone DB coaching session and described the entire incident. He suggested that I yield the MBR to her and stake a full claim to the basement. "Make it yours. Turn it into the man cave you always wanted" he said. I guess his idea was to turn this sleeping arrangement fiasco into a GAL opportunity. Other than the laundry room, my W has no reason to spend any time in the basement. So it's basically like we live in a duplex with my apartment being downstairs, hers upstairs, and a shared kitchen.
As for how do I cope? It really depends. Frankly there are some nights when I'm very thankful that I sleep in the basement. I don't have to be constantly reminded that I'm 6 inches from the alien that abducted my W. I have the big screen TV all to myself and I can catch up shows I haven't watched or play video games. It's a total distraction from the pain of my sitch and it really helps.
And then there are other nights when I feel so tempted to just go into our MBR, climb into bed, embrace my W, tell her that I love her and that I will keep fighting to save our M for as long as it takes. The funny thing is, as I write this I don't really know how she would react if I did that. Maybe one day I will feel like it's worth the risk, but not right now.
Thanks Chris! All the best
I have experienced tons of resentment over the past 24 hours with my W getting closer to her 5-day "vacation" in FL.
Last night we went to a neighbor's house (cool neighbors, not the man-bashing neighbor next door) for dinner. Their kids play with ours. I could have stayed home but remembered my 180 and the fact that I hadn't seen my kids all day so I went. I felt so out of place and uncomfortable in that setting it was astounding.
There was a person there that none of us had ever met. My W introduced herself and our kids and then stopped, even though I was standing right behind her. So I spoke up and said, "I'm Chris by the way." My W apologized immediately for the oversight. I don't think she purposely excluded me from her introductions to be spiteful, it just kinda felt like I didn't exist in her world right then. That pretty much set the tone for the rest of the night. I continued to engage in the conversation and even listened to my W tell a couple stories about how we met and when we were first dating. But everything was just a little off. There was tension there. Maybe I was the only one feeling it...
Then my W proceeds to take out her vape pen and smoke. Now, my W and I are both ex-smokers (going on 8 years now) and we have ALWAYS strived to live a healthy lifestyle. Her mom just died of cancer as a result of smoking 3 years ago. But this vape thing is new for her. I discovered it a few weeks ago and mentioned it. She told me she would just bring it with her when she went out to the bar with her friends. But I get the feeling that she's probably using it regularly. It was so odd watching her smoke it last night. Almost like a mini-betrayal. I mean, who the eff IS this woman anyway? Where did she come from?
After a while I decided that I was going to leave and take S8 home. We had just gotten the new Zelda game and we were BOTH aching to play it. But I was also very tired from a 12 hour day and the idea of standing out in the cold in front of a fire pit watching everyone smoke wasn't very appealing. So I told my W we were going and she asks if I can also take D5 home.
This really bugged me. Here's this woman who was only home one night this week (her birthday) to put our kids to bed (granted she was working on 2 of them) and she won't be around for most of next week because she'll be in FL. But she didn't think it would be appropriate for us all to leave at the same time so she could help put our kids to bed. She really just wanted to stay and party. And these aren't even people that she regularly parties with. She just didn't want to go home. But I didn't let it bother me. I smiled and said goodnight and took the kids home. S8 and I played Zelda until 11pm!
So look, I'm not an idiot. I recognize that her selfishness is at an all-time high right now. Sandi2 warned me about this countless times so it's not a surprise. I spent a few hours today working through my resentment and journalling. But I did eventually get over it. I also realize that I'm extra sensitive right now. Once I got the resentment and anger out of my system (I went for a run), I felt better.
I also tried to see things from her perspective. What's causing her to be so selfish these days? Does she even recognize it? This is a woman who has put her own needs behind everyone else's all her life, going all the way back to her early childhood. Her therapist has even suggested that she never really HAD a childhood because of the problems in her family. So I think the selfishness is a reaction to all of this. She's trying to make up for lost time by swinging over to the other extreme.
I don't think is an acceptable or mature way for her to handle this issue, but I can understand why she might be reacting this way. And I would never want to trade my position with hers. I had a stable upbringing and I consider myself to be emotional stable (for the most part). When she opens up about the things she went through as a kid (alcoholism, physical abuse, abandonment) it breaks my heart. Through most of our relationship I assumed that I could provide enough stability for her to get over this. That I could "save" her from the trauma of her past. I'm smarter now. There was never anything I could have done to save her, the only thing I should have done was supported her, and I didn't even do that.
Anyway, I never thought I'd say this but I'm relieved that my W will be going away for a few days. I could really use a break from her!
Let it out...let it out...we need a weekend in AC to get away from all this...
Lots of crying today.
W left for 5 days in FL with her girlfriends. We stood in the kitchen this morning talking and she proceeded to go on and on about how nice the weather was going to be and how beautiful the sunsets are on the west coast.
Under normal circumstances I would be happy for her. But instead I just got angry bc I felt like she was being insensitive.
(Oh, hello ego. Hello attachment. How are you today?)
As a result of this anger I proceeded to bring up the subject of how she planned to pay for this vacation. Her mood changed the instant this question was posed. She then reminded me that we haven't separated our incomes... "yet."
I saw that venom in her eyes again. Just sitting there, right below the surface, waiting to strike. I dropped the subject, she walked away, and I walked out to the garage so no one could see or hear me cry. More than anything, I mourned the loss of all the progress and momentum I had gained over the last month. My comment will likely be the only thing that sticks in her mind as she leaves for a warmer climate.
The rest of the morning went fine. We all ate breakfast and then the kids and I got ready for church. She had planned to leave for the airport before we got back, so we all said our goodbyes. I looked her in the eyes and said, "Have a great time. Please be careful and take care of yourself." No tears this time, just a big smile. As much as I wanted to, there was no way I was going to try to make her feel guilty for leaving.
She didn't even come out to the driveway to wave goodbye to the kids... "I don't have any shoes on..."
Made it to church and had a really hard time keeping the tears back, especially after the kids went to their classes. But I think most of it is out of me now. She's out of my life for 5 days and I will try my best to keep her out of my mind for just as long.
I'm excited to be Mr. Mom and have a little more control over things this week, and it will be nice to sleep in our bed again (although frankly my back does better on the couch!). Tonight I'm headed to an the open blues jam in Philly to play my guitar and drink old fashioned's. Man do I need it!
I hate this stuff. My W was spending money like water and it was causing stress but has been better since splitting up the money. Do you have expectations re communication while she is away?
Also, I'm actually kind of envious that you could go to the garage and have a good cry. It's really, really hard for me to let it out like that. It's healthy for you.
No expectations for communication. I assume she'll call each night to talk to the kids. I won't ignore her on the phone if I'm home when she calls. And I have no doubt she'll send me a few txts. Maybe a pic or 2 just to keep me subdued. I'm sure in her mind, sending no pictures at all would imply that she's doing things I don't like. But I won't engage her in texting. She's away. There's no need for us to communicate unless there's an emergency.
Chris73 your thread is inspiring. Today. Ok there will be ups and downs. She should have been more open. Did she say who she is going with? My wife palyed tricks on me. I had seen concert tickets in her bag. On the day of the concert she called and said a friends husband couldn't make it and that she was going to the concert. As sandi2 says when WW has OM n her head she is not really engaging. But I feel like you you need to focus on the friendship with W and more importantly relationship with your offspring. I feel very down as she now sleeps in the spare room. Just took maybe 1 minute.
I recalled other thing. She had her nose done. I bet she was sending pictures to OM. When the doctor came and she had to hand in the phone she paniced. But hey I don't look at it anymore.
What I am trying to say is that there could be lots going on in the background. We are doing what we can.
Read shodan. Man the thread was interesting. We would wait and wonder. It ended okish but at one point as we were waiting for reconcilation he said the D papers were prepared!
So as Michele says keep the course.
Thanks WillDo. I do know who she's will. And at this point I don't think there's an OM in the picture. It's more of a Girls Gone Wild thing. She's down in Tampa, in a hotel by the beach, with a girlfriend who is going through a divorce, and it's spring break. So I think it's more about partying like a 25 year old single woman. It really [censored] when I dwell on it.
Meanwhile, like I predicted, she's already sent me 2 pictures of the view from her room...
Thanks WillDo. I do know who she's will. And at this point I don't think there's an OM in the picture. It's more of a Girls Gone Wild thing. She's down in Tampa, in a hotel by the beach, with a girlfriend who is going through a divorce, and it's spring break. So I think it's more about partying like a 25 year old single woman. It really [censored] when I dwell on it.
Meanwhile, like I predicted, she's already sent me 2 pictures of the view from her room...
W went on one of these trips with her new friends. Girls gone wild weekend? What does that mean to you? Drinking, drugs, random hookups?
No drugs. But probably everything else. Maybe I'm not giving my W enough credit, but at this point the trust level is zero, so I assume the worst.
Meanwhile, like I predicted, she's already sent me 2 pictures of the view from her room...
I'm not whats worse - your wife sending pics or my wife being completely dark (i.e. zero contact with me other than about the kids).
What would YOU do...?
W took down ALL the photos from the fireplace mantle at xmas time to put up xmas decorations. 2 of these photos are wedding pictures. Mid-January, W took down the xmas decorations and took out all the photos that were on the mantle before xmas, but she just left them in a pile.
My impulse is to put them back up... We still live together and we're still married. But I don't want to start a fight or make her feel uncomfortable. I should also mention that there are 3 wedding photos above our bed that she has not taken down.
Should I put them back up? Should I put them away? Should I leave them where they are? Should I talk to her about it?
Chris73,
Forget about the pictures and use the brain cycles on planning your next outrageously cool GAL activity.
Chris73,
Forget about the pictures and use the brain cycles on planning your next outrageously cool GAL activity.
Yup. This is not worth the brain power.
Chris73,
Forget about the pictures and use the brain cycles on planning your next outrageously cool GAL activity.
Yup. This is not worth the brain power.
If they are sitting in a pile next to the mantel, then do what you want with them. Put them up or put them away doesnt make a ton of difference. Me? Id probably put them up....Or print off new pictures and put THOSE up.
I actually took mine down after Thanksgiving and they went into a drawer, off course she's moved out so my sich is slightly different. Don't spend cycles on if she took them down - let her decide when to put them back up
Thanks all. I'm going to leave them where they are and let her decide. I think it would be seen as manipulative if I put them up while she's away.
I'm now moving on to planning my Friday night in the city!
Chris, relax, you are working yourself into a frenzy. Your W will come out of it when it's time for her. You cannot do anything for her, but sure as hell you can [censored] things up. I do not know if you can see, but you are teetering on a knife's edge here. You are exhausting yourself looking for the silver bullet and delving into despair when you can't seem to find one. And worst of all you are putting your own growing on hold. And if you don't slap yourself sill and come around, that is going to be your undoing. It seems to me that you got it into your head that you have to be this superman, superhusband, superdad. Well you cannot fix it all. You cannot fix your wife, you cannot fix your marriage. Your wife has to be willing to step up to the plate. Right now, she's about 22. Right now you can't even say she's a good mom. Am I right, or am I right. And you are pissed. Pissed at her for being a teenager again and pissed at yourself, because you can't make things right. I know you made a promise to yourself that you are going to make things right and that you are going to get your W back even if it kills you. You should step away from the hot mess that is your W right now. I know you are worried what she is up to in FL, but you really have to set it all aside as you really have no influence or say over it.
Get your ass in gear and start living life and putting yourself and the children first for change.
God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference. Reinhold Niebuhr
Thanks Vapo. You're right.
Logically I know there's no silver bullet but I guess emotionally I keep looking for that glimmer of recognition that she's moving out of this limbo and towards me... that she will tell me that she wants to try again.
In the beginning I thought rational conversations (which I now refer to as my "sales pitch") and romantic displays of my affection were the solution. I know better now.
These days I'm just simply trying to reconnect with her on a friendship level. But you're right, if the goal is to lovingly detach with no expectations, I'm not always acting with that goal in mind. Many times I'm looking for a reaction and then get worked up when the reaction isn't what I'd hoped for.
Even with the 180s I'm doing around the house (taking control, being proactive, not asking my W for help or her opinion on how to do something) there is a part of me that waits for recognition from my W and then gets resentful when I don't get one.
This is clearly not detachment.
Perfect example... Every year we spend a week at the beach in the summer. Obviously this year no plans have been made yet. And I'm working myself into a frenzy deciding how to approach talking to her about it. But I think the fully detached approach is: "I would like to take the kids to the beach for a week this summer and I need to make the plans now. Here are the dates I'm considering." And just leave it at that. There's no reason why we can't still go despite her limbo status. Of course, at this stage I would probably ask her if she wanted to come with us, but I'm sure some would advise that I don't invite her at all...
Anyway, thanks Vapo. Lots to think about!
I think it would be seen as manipulative if I put them up while she's away
Agreed - do things for you - not for her. I was very much in the early days trying to do subtle things wondering how it may impact her, and TBH I still do at times or at least think of it. We wouldn't be good Husbands if we didn't think about how our actions impact our Wives. But in these cases we need to be careful about how they can be seen as manipulative.
If you feel you want to have pictures - put them up at work where she won't know if they are there or not.
As painful as it is - shes in the drivers seat right now around any forward momentum you have with your R - all you can do is move on as if you couldn't care less and GAL.
T there is a part of me that waits for recognition from my W and then gets resentful when I don't get one.
Tell me about it. A few times she did acknowledged I have changed. Also not seeing her changed regarding A adds on to that resentment. I feel like I am changing the world, I get the looks that I am a hamster on a wheel.
What keeps me going; "It will happen, it will happen"
I think it would be seen as manipulative if I put them up while she's away
Agreed - do things for you - not for her. I was very much in the early days trying to do subtle things wondering how it may impact her, and TBH I still do at times or at least think of it. We wouldn't be good Husbands if we didn't think about how our actions impact our Wives. But in these cases we need to be careful about how they can be seen as manipulative.
If you feel you want to have pictures - put them up at work where she won't know if they are there or not.
As painful as it is - shes in the drivers seat right now around any forward momentum you have with your R - all you can do is move on as if you couldn't care less and GAL.
I disagree about the marriage photos at work. You can't be reminded every second of your working day what you had, you need to crush it at work and it will lift your selfesteem, and the last thing you need is this constant reminder of the things past. Your M is gone, your R is gone, anything that might happen with your W is a new R and a new M.