Help - Setting Boundaries, WW in EA - Thread #3

[Woke_Up]

Old thread: http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2722974&page=11

[Woke_Up]

Following Rose's advice always works for me. She is wise.

I did, I fixed it and removed any blocks on her devices.

Actions speak louder than words. Do the right thing immediately. If the time and place is right for an apology, then do so but with no expectations that your W will think better of you or forgive you. Do it because you think it is the right thing to do.

Well, we talked a bit and she went to bed shortly after, so the apology will need to be this morning. The thing is, I know the issue is I haven't detached. I only know for sure she was contacting OM because I went looking for the evidence. I'm also internally conflicted a bit because I feel I am still acting like she has my balls in her purse, but I reacted to this feeling in the wrong way.

Interestingly, she was initially angry - she said she would have a battle of wills with me and I would lose - which is why I three the router - that took away my capacity to cave in to her. She then said she would exact revenge, but she wouldn't do it in the heat of the moment like me, she would plan it carefully... My response was there was very little left she could do to hurt me. But then she calmed down, and we talked. Calmly, rationally - depending in your point of view. I think the fact that there was no battle to be had helped. I don't know.

She told me that it would end soon - I queried whether she meant the A or us. She said she meant the A. So I told her that if she knew that, then she knew what to do, that there was no right time, or letting OM down gently (as Sandi has told me previously). She claimed OM made her feel guilty and that she thought he may even kill himself. I just said I doubted he would, but if he did, it wasn't her fault. She said that she didn't think OM would take it much longer and he would make her choose - I asked her what she would choose and she said me.

That's what I find ridiculous. She will choose me if forced to choose by OM, but she won't choose me if not forced to choose. I did ask her did she see the problem with what she was saying? That she didn't respect me enough to make the decision now, that there was resentment and that she perceived me as the enemy, and that there were many things from our past that we needed to work out. I also said there was a but... but we had chosen to love each other. that after time, love is a choice, and we had made that choice, both of us. I also used KentS quote "Relationships are hard work. The soul mate stuff is crap', told her that I had read it somewhere, not where I had read it.

Anyway, time to withdraw, as Rose said. It's actually time. I just wish I knew how to do it more effectively.

Further, if your boundary is NC with the OM does it matter if it happens in the home or elsewhere? W continues to contact OM. Some DR stories say to ignore the OM as he is a symptom and not the cause of your problems. This is what I am doing, but others here say it is insane to ignore. What is right in your situation?

My feelings on this vary day to day. You're right. I had stated my boundary is NC in the house, but actually, that's just focusing on the perceived sanctity of the family home (an Englishman's home is his castle, right?) while ignoring the sanctity of the R, which is being trashed. Things did seem to go better for me when I was able to ignore it, but then I got suckered back into 'helpful husband' mode, which made me crash even harder on Sunday when it became apparent that there had been no changes on her part.

Sandi has hit the nail on the head, with how to deal with this. I know what I have to do, but I am scared to do it, and she has rightly identified fear of the LBH as being the biggest blocker. Every time WW has thought that we were actually going to end, she has pulled back and fought against it. When she doesn't feel like we are going to end, she goes deeper into the EA.

[Woke_Up]

Boundaries are only good when you can control them respectfully. You can only control yourself.

I see. I was not able to do this, so let myself react in an uncontrolled, somewhat childish manner.

There are five forms of apologies and each person responds different to each one.

You can find a better description of this on this thread.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2724890#Post2724890

Thanks Seeker. That is a good read. I think I need to apologise and acknowledge that I was trying to control what she was doing and my reaction was inappropriate.

[Gordie]

Wow, those are huge developments. You will be in my prayers.

When you say you know what you need to do, what does that mean?

When your W says she will exact revenge, what does that mean?

[Woke_Up]

Wow, those are huge developments. You will be in my prayers.

Thanks Gordie. I'm just frustrated that she can see that she will choose me if she is forced but won't do it now when it is literally pulling the family apart - and also that I can't even take this at face value as she has said similar before and has made no steps to change. As Sandi and others have said over & over again - The behaviour and actions have to match the words.

When you say you know what you need to do, what does that mean?

Extract myself from being in a relationship rather than just saying it. Mentally leave the R. I haven't done this to date. Start looking at a life without her in it.

When your W says she will exact revenge, what does that mean?

The lord only knows.. could be many things. She has more than enough capability to make things thoroughly unpleasant, from verbal abuse, to taking over parts of the house, for preventing any of my GAL activities.

I don't think it will come to that now. I sent her a text with an apology this morning, with regards to the internet. I didn't get a response, didn't really expect one. Other than that I just sent her a short reminder that it was D's horse riding lesson after school today.

Just heard from her now, she wants me to go home early so she can go to hospital, sounds like her grandmother (wife of the grandfather that died in December) is dying - poor woman was suffering with dementia and ill health anyway, I think the loss of her husband has been too much.

There's a lot on W's plate at the moment with that, with the depression and anxiety she still suffers from. She also got her blood test results back and was diagnosed with Vitamin D deficiency. Then there's the EA. I want to be supportive for the other bits without being too much of a pushover on her waywardness.

I think this will be a trial and error thing over the coming weeks/months.

I'll update soon.

[Gordie]

Extract myself from being in a relationship rather than just saying it. Mentally leave the R. I haven't done this to date. Start looking at a life without her in it.

Struggling to do this myself...so will be looking for pointers from you...dang, this is hard, as MWD says, the hardest thing you've ever done in your life...

[Woke_Up]

Just trying to maintain a bit of distance at the moment.

No contact during the day, and not being too talkative or close at home, just said goodnight from the doorway when she went to bed early. She is out of the MBR now.

It's difficult, despite the anger and sadness, I do miss being in the same bed - I had been out of the MBR so long due to looking after D and early mornings (much longer than I should have allowed) that I just wanted to get back in & be close even after the BD - I foolishly thought it would help heal us, & I missed the closeness. It's very lonely, but it is also necessary, and avoids the temptation of physicality.

[Cristy]

Hello Woke_up,

I'm glad that you spoke with a L. It is so important to know what to expect from a legal stand point.

At this point you can't believe any of what your wife says and only half of what she does. Focus on being the best Woke_up and Dad that only a fool would leave.

The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004. We work with many, many people that are overseas and working out the time difference isn't an issue.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[Gordie]

She told me that it would end soon

So, has she ended it yet?

In your very first thread, you said your W said she loved the OM and that she loved you. Has she said she no longer loves the OM? Does she still say she loves you?

[Woke_Up]

[So, has she ended it yet?

Oh, hell no.

In your very first thread, you said your W said she loved the OM and that she loved you. Has she said she no longer loves the OM? Does she still say she loves you?

She has not said she no longer loves him. She still tells him she loves him from what I have seen on her Skype.

She still says she loves me, although the last time was Sunday night. She has been more removed this week, mirroring my withdrawal. I actually wonder if she's doing it to see if she can pull me close by doing it. She said after the internet argument that she would choose me, as she believed OM would make her choose soon.

Make of that what you will. Hey, I would completely expect her to tell OM she would choose him if he asked the question - it's quite difficult to break the status quo - unless she gets on a plane or he gets on a plane, or one of us pushes for a separation. I don't want to push that, I don't think it would necessarily help. Yes, it may snap her out of it, but then again it may not. I will only push for a sep when I get to the point of not being able to live in the same house any more.

Anyway, her grandma died today, so I will go and see how she is doing. That's both grandparents on her father's side in just over a month. She's feeling pretty sad about it from what I can tell, although we've only exchanged a couple of texts. I want to be supportive without giving the wrong signals

[Woke_Up]

Bah, another day of ups and downs.

Bit of spew from W this morning, argued a bit, she said I could be as cold as I want and she would be colder - when I reminded her that she once said if the sitch was reversed she would freeze me out, she said that if it was reversed, I would be gone... I don't think she gets the irony here.

Went food shopping with D, then when I got home, W's new bed frame had arrived, so she sorted out her room while I worked outside.

Later she told me she loved me again, I said she already knew that I loved her. . I asked if she was still IN love with me and she said yes, and if she valued what she had with me more than the EA, and again she said yes. Again she said she would have to end it and suffer. She said she suspected that if she met OM in person she would quickly find out she didn't like him and it would be awful. I said I couldn't condone or approve of her meeting him and she knew that.

Later, I was feeling a bit upset about the room move (not because I'm not sleeping next to her, mostly because it looks like moving into an in house separation, which is at odds with what she said) - I asked her if she had written the letter (NC letter) and she said 'what letter' - I explained what I meant, based on what she had said, and she basically just fudged over it.

So, a day of 2 steps back. Not detached, and effectively pursuing by asking about R and NC letter.

I suspect this morning was a bit of an anger addiction hit for her, but that is just speculation. She is also feeling sad and a bit strange after the death of her grandmother. She is worrying who will die next, and she did say at one point she worried I was going to die and leave her on her own... she has said this before, that she has had a feeling I will die. She used it quite early on to almost say that she should be allowed to have OM as he would be able to look after her if I did die! Charming, isn't it.

Anyway, I'm going to start afresh tomorrow, although we will be taking D and SS to beach, as D desperately wants to go. I had planned on doing it on my own, but W wants to go.

I'm going to work on controlling my big mouth. I say too much when I get dragged into arguments, or when I let things prey on my mind. I need to try and find some way of getting out of the house and calming down.

Still reading the 37 rules each day

[Woke_Up]

Monday - got back from work, straight into grief from WW about bedrooms, telling me that my room (MBR) was going to be the spare room, anyone could go in there and all the junk was going in there, and her room was hers and private, etc.

Later I said I was going out, she asked why, so I vented a bit, told her I was sick of getting home from work and being treated like I was the one having the affair and being punished. She actually apologised to me later. She sent me a song to listen to while I was out in the garden walking to calm me down.

Tuesday - last day at work, had leaving drinks with the team, got home late so didn't see WW at all.

Today, was fine most of the day, W gave me a random hug at one point, but we got into an argument later, and I said some stupid things. It was about my parenting style, and W was spewing at me, and unfortunately I said I didn't want D to be like her, or me. That was a stupid thing to say. I was focused on the way she was raging, and that was what I meant, but it was a pretty awful thing to say, and W rightly got mad at me. I'm mad at myself.

Anyway, I got some home truths from W, and TBH, some of them were fair - I come across as patronising, condescending, always want to be right.

I try to be calm while she rages, but that doesn't work for her, she feels I am coming across as passive aggressive and condescending.

I will take note and work on this. Even though it was in an argument, it is good for me to see how I am coming across, and can work on 180'ing this.

I did go into W's room and apologised to her and made it clear that I did like her (she had taken my comments as meaning I didn't like who she was as a person).

I am focusing on the job hunt at the moment, I have a pretty solid lead for my next contract - I am invited back for a 2nd interview on Friday, and I am the only candidate being invited back - it is supposed to be an informal interview to meet some other team members, so I am feeling positive about that. One of the other opportunities hasn't materialised, at least not in the right way - they offered a fixed term contract rather than a day rate limited company contract, which doesn't work for me. I also had another call about a potential contract - a place that offered me a job 18 months ago - it's not ideal, so I am concentrating on option 1 at the moment, but if that doesn't happen then this will be a fall back.

Just coming on here calms me down.

I think I will go for the coaching once I get the next contract in the bag.

[sandi2]

Duct tape you mouth closed, b/c it is your worst enemy at the moment. You must stop engaging in arguments. It takes two people to argue. Don't hang around and take her spew. Why would you let someone berate you? Get the heck out of Dodge.

Woke, you need to stop telling her you love her. That's basic DBing101. Stop telling her you don't want a divorce, etc. She gets it. And when she throws around the ILY'S and gives a hug once in a while.......it means nothing. Those are her manipulation tools to keep you in the spot you are currently experiencing. Do not believe anything she says.......and that includes "ILY, I'm going to end things with OM", etc. You look at her actions! She is not acting like a woman who is planning to end her A. She is getting more space and private time away from her H......not closer.

She is still calling the shots in your house. As long as she is in supreme reign, the dynamics will cotinue to get worse. At the moment, you need to stop trying to change things by talking to her. Stop going from one extreme to the other. You go from ice to hot words, and she can play the game better than you. She as already told you twice how things would be if it were you having an A.

When I was engaged in an A, I got busted by my grown D. She was not angry or acting judgemental, but sadly said, "You know you would not put up with Dad treating you that way....not for one second". And.....she was correct, and I knew I would have left or kicked him out in a flash, if the situation was reversed. Just like your WW knows what she would do, too. I think those basic personality differences (for lack of a better word) have a lot to do with what separates the LBH and WW....and the dynamics in their MR. Yes, she knows she is treating you like cr@p, and she knows she would never stand for you to treat her the way she is treating you! Every single wayward woman has that mentality,b/c it comes from her own arrogance and disrespect.

[Gordie]

Anyway, I got some home truths from W, and TBH, some of them were fair - I come across as patronising, condescending, always want to be right.

I try to be calm while she rages, but that doesn't work for her, she feels I am coming across as passive aggressive and condescending.

I will take note and work on this. Even though it was in an argument, it is good for me to see how I am coming across, and can work on 180'ing this.

How do you come across as patronising and condescending and always needing to be right? A lot of Ws have these complaints and I'm trying to better understand them. I too am calm when my W rages.

[Gordie]

When I was engaged in an A, I got busted by my grown D. She was not angry or acting judgemental, but sadly said, "You know you would not put up with Dad treating you that way....not for one second". And.....she was correct, and I knew I would have left or kicked him out in a flash, if the situation was reversed. Just like your WW knows what she would do, too. I think those basic personality differences (for lack of a better word) have a lot to do with what separates the LBH and WW....and the dynamics in their MR. Yes, she knows she is treating you like cr@p, and she knows she would never stand for you to treat her the way she is treating you! Every single wayward woman has that mentality,b/c it comes from her own arrogance and disrespect.

Wow, what an awesome daughter!

[sandi2]

Thank you Gordie. Yes, she was an awesome daughter.

[Woke_Up]

and that includes "ILY, I'm going to end things with OM", etc. You look at her actions! She is not acting like a woman who is planning to end her A. She is getting more space and private time away from her H......not closer.

You're right. I know, I know. I'm working on it. The arguments have been a feature of our R all the way through, even in the early days. It's really difficult for me to change that dynamic, there's a lot of unlearning. And yes, you are hitting the nail on the head with regards to her words about OM and her actions - like yesterday evening she said again she wasn't going to leave me, and that she would end it and would need my help, to take her phones away or something like that... and within an hour, while I had gone out to buy dinner for the family, she had been on skype to OM telling him she loved him.

She is still calling the shots in your house. As long as she is in supreme reign, the dynamics will cotinue to get worse. At the moment, you need to stop trying to change things by talking to her. Stop going from one extreme to the other. You go from ice to hot words, and she can play the game better than you. She as already told you twice how things would be if it were you having an A.

That's the thing isn't it - a W can pretty much get the upper hand if the H doesn't want to break up the family. I would have to move out, and that goes against DBing - much as I think the space would help and she would start to find things quite a bit more difficult on her own.

Just like your WW knows what she would do, too. I think those basic personality differences (for lack of a better word) have a lot to do with what separates the LBH and WW....and the dynamics in their MR. Yes, she knows she is treating you like cr@p, and she knows she would never stand for you to treat her the way she is treating you! Every single wayward woman has that mentality,b/c it comes from her own arrogance and disrespect.

Yes, while I agree, the issue of breaking up the family is what is different. She would keep the kids if it was the other way round. I would have to leave, she would get to stay in the house, and I would still have to pay the mortgage, as it is in joint names, and comes out of my bank account. Yes, I could give her the bills, but she would probably manage on the child maintenance I would pay given my current employment, up to the point where I took a lower paid job closer to home to enable me to see my children more.

Plus, she still has my b@lls, as you have quite rightly pointed out. Detaching is proving so difficult for me.

Thanks for your response again, Sandi, it is much appreciated, as always.

[Woke_Up]

How do you come across as patronising and condescending and always needing to be right? A lot of Ws have these complaints and I'm trying to better understand them. I too am calm when my W rages.

She says it is my tone of voice, and choice of words. She did an impression, you would have to hear it That I sound like a teacher talking to a student rather than adult to adult.

[Woke_Up]

Really struggling not to contact OM today... sick of this pretence that I am an ex, and I want to move things along to where W has to make a choice.

Is it quite common in other people's sitch's that the WW makes up a fantasy to go with the EA (or PA if applicable) and pretends the H isn't there, or isn't the H any more?

[Gordie]

Really struggling not to contact OM today... sick of this pretence that I am an ex, and I want to move things along to where W has to make a choice.

Is it quite common in other people's sitch's that the WW makes up a fantasy to go with the EA (or PA if applicable) and pretends the H isn't there, or isn't the H any more?

In your mind, what are pros and cons of contacting OM? Would it get you closer or further from your goal?

As you know, my W has her own fantasy but doesn't pretend I'm not here or still her H. The fact that I am still her H is what is bugging her!

[Woke_Up]

I'm not sure, but I'm about to find out.

Last night, looked at her phone and saw she had sent another pic of my D to OM. That is my red rag to a bull. So I sent OM a Skype from her phone with a picture of us, and said does it look like I'm an ex. I told W I had done this. I then followed up with a couple of texts to OM telling him he didn't get to pretend to be a knight in shining armour, he was an OM - she was having an affair, and the pretence was going to stop.

He hasn't replied to me but W sent me a text asking me to leave the 'poor guy' alone.

He has gone, for now...

So, this. Opening, the rage starts. Not unexpected. Took the rest of my clothes which were still in her 'new' room, threw them downstairs. I carried them up to the MBR. She then proceeded to trash the MBR - pulled drawers out, threw my clothes everywhere, ripped up the copies of 'not just friends' and 'love must be tough' by my bed, scattered the pages all over the floor.

She has also said it is over, we are finished..

Says she will make my life hell. When I get another gf she will sabotage it. Says she detests me. She wants me to delete all photos of her from my phone. I kept my cool throughout all of it. I have gone out of the house for a bit, brought my phone and laptop, maybe do some work. I have a week off before my new contract starts.

So at the minute, my actions have pushed her further away. This is not great, but I ultimate wasn't strong enough to take her continued infidelity, especially involving my D. If I hadn't snooped, I wouldn't have known, and this wouldn't have happened. Then again I was failing miserably at putting in place boundaries and detaching from her.

I feel lost now, but I know I have to weather the storm. This is what happens when you don't manage to DB I guess... anyway, it will get worse before it gets better.

[sandi2]

like yesterday evening she said again she wasn't going to leave me, and that she would end it and would need my help, to take her phones away or something like that... and within an hour, while I had gone out to buy dinner for the family, she had been on skype to OM telling him she loved him.

A couple of things here, it is her responsibility to end the affair. You can support her as she's going through withdrawals, but ultimately it is up to her. You could take her phone and whatever else she uses, but it would not prevent her from contacting OM if she wanted. She has put forth absolutely no effert. Telling you that you have to help her, and as soon as you get out the door she is talking to OM? She is not being genuine with you. She will continue to play you as long as it works for her.

Originally Posted By: sandi2
Just like your WW knows what she would do, too. I think those basic personality differences (for lack of a better word) have a lot to do with what separates the LBH and WW....and the dynamics in their MR. Yes, she knows she is treating you like cr@p, and she knows she would never stand for you to treat her the way she is treating you! Every single wayward woman has that mentality,b/c it comes from her own arrogance and disrespect.

Yes, while I agree, the issue of breaking up the family is what is different. She would keep the kids if it was the other way round. I would have to leave, she would get to stay in the house, and I would still have to pay the mortgage, as it is in joint names, and comes out of my bank account.

I wasn't really refering to "separates" as in breaking apart the family. I understand what you are saying here, and maybe you understood what I was talking about as the dynamics in the relationship with the LBH and WW. I hope so. In reading thread after thread from LBH's, I can see a pattern of these dynamics.

[Woke_Up]

A couple of things here, it is her responsibility to end the affair. You can support her as she's going through withdrawals, but ultimately it is up to her. You could take her phone and whatever else she uses, but it would not prevent her from contacting OM if she wanted. She has put forth absolutely no effert. Telling you that you have to help her, and as soon as you get out the door she is talking to OM? She is not being genuine with you. She will continue to play you as long as it works for her.

Yes, I agree, but she was making no effort. As you may have seen from today's post, I saw red last night, and have contacted OM. This has pushed W away and into rage, as she feels she has lost OM and that I am now the bad guy. He may return. he may not. I don't know. Have I made things worse? Potentially. Definitely for the short term.

I wasn't really refering to "separates" as in breaking apart the family. I understand what you are saying here, and maybe you understood what I was talking about as the dynamics in the relationship with the LBH and WW. I hope so. In reading thread after thread from LBH's, I can see a pattern of these dynamics.

Yes, I got what you were saying - I think my point is that from W's perspective, they get to keep the kids whatever happens, and probably the home. So they can generally force the issue if they won't put up with the disrespect of a PA or EA.
As a LBH, that is not so easy. I know, it's about detachment, but doing and knowing are very different things. As you say, my W is much better at playing the game than I am. I wanted to be able to distance myself, to treat her to tougher love, but it went so much against me that I couldn't do it effectively, and ended up blowing hot and cold, kept failing to protect myself. So I have now done what perhaps I should not. I think that me, along with many me, sometimes force themselves to do something rather than what feels like nothing, to break the status quo, even if it ends up being negative. Self reflection after the fact... a bit too late.

[Woke_Up]

Ok, so yesterday was pretty much as expected. Lots of spew, rage, anger and resentment aimed at me.

She had found my notes from my call with L when she dumped all of the things out of my work bag, and demanded an explanation. I explained that it was for my peace of mind, and what I had been told. I said she should get her own advice. She assumed I was plotting and just trying to make sure I could get as much financially as possible...

Plenty of rages, plenty of threats about ruining things with any future partner I may have, and trying to send manipulative texts to make it look like we weren't together... I made sure my answers didn't give any room for her careful editing, to send to OM.

This morning, she was a bit better. Said she had blocked 'her friend' on skype. She didn't resist physical touch, and I made her a coffee, brought it to her in bed.

Her mood deteriorated during the day, some spewing and insults, to pretty much ignoring me by bed time. I stayed in rather than training and bathed D4, got her to bed, read her a story.

W is hurting at the moment. I don't know how to help her through this. I don't know how strong she will be, or if she will try anything to get back the OM/EA. I gave SS16 a brief run down of what had happened when he asked why she was lying down upstairs with the door closed. Told him it wasn't going to be easy, wasn't sure if I could help her, and that she would be feeling like she had lost a limb.

It's weird - all of the pain and anguish I've gone through these last 6 or 7 months, and all I want to do is take her pain away from her. And at the same time I feel resentment that I am now the bad guy again.

She is desperately trying to exert control in our interactions - although this has been the norm for us anyway. I think she is feeling a double loss - control was taken away from her, and the loss of the OM while still in full limerance. She didn't get to do it on her own terms. But who knows how long that would have taken?

I'm resigned to weathering this storm, battening down the hatches, and any other nautical metaphors that are appropriate. I have to be careful in my demeanour now - if I seem too cheery to her (i.e. what I was trying to do before), this seems to make her irate, as if I am happy about what I have done, and am rubbing salt in the wounds. So, give her space. Be supportive where possible. But mainly, give her space.

[Gordie]

Okay, so you can't look like you are happy for what you have done? I'm opening a virtual champagne for you tonight! I defer to the vets if this makes things better or worse, but you did what you felt you had to do and I applaud you for that. Status quo is over, so what next? I'm praying for you. What did SS?

[DonH]

I sometimes cant believe what I'm reading! Your W is having an affair, lying to you, screaming at you, threatening to harm you both emotionally and perhaps physically and in return you bring her breakfast in bed? Am I really reading this correctly? I must ask you, are you seeing a therapist at all? If not, have you considered that? I think it might help you. What you are doing is not normal and is never going to get you to a healthy R.

Then on top of it you are involving a 16 year old child in this? SHAME ON YOU! In fact shame on both of you! This child has no business getting involved in this crazy dysfunction. What is the matter with you involving him and portraying that what his mother is doing is even remotely normal. What is this showing him?

I'm sorry to come darn so hard on you but I want to get your attention. This is not okay - any of it. I hope you can talk to a professional to get some clarity here as its badly needed.

[Woke_Up]

I sometimes cant believe what I'm reading! Your W is having an affair, lying to you, screaming at you, threatening to harm you both emotionally and perhaps physically and in return you bring her breakfast in bed? Am I really reading this correctly? I must ask you, are you seeing a therapist at all? If not, have you considered that? I think it might help you. What you are doing is not normal and is never going to get you to a healthy R.

Pretty much. I've always found it difficult to withdraw away during these last few months. And on Tuesday I used the excuse to myself that the EA is over (well at least for now) and she's going to be going through withdrawals. But you are right. It's not healthy, and there is a pattern of long term unhealthy interactions in our R. I haven't researched co-dependency yet, but I think I should as there may be elements of that going on. In answer to your question, I am not seeing a therapist. I was researching IC's in London where I work, but haven't made an appointment yet - I delayed, waiting to see where I would get my next contract. It's generally too late by the time I get home (7:15PM) to go to a local therapist or counsellor. Now my work is sorted again, I will set something up. I am looking for someone who is pro-R and also transactional analysis, as there are a lot of drama triangle interactions going on.

Then on top of it you are involving a 16 year old child in this? SHAME ON YOU! In fact shame on both of you! This child has no business getting involved in this crazy dysfunction. What is the matter with you involving him and portraying that what his mother is doing is even remotely normal. What is this showing him?

While you may be right in this assumption, he already knows that it is going on through past flare ups and arguments, plus the WW had sent a picture of him to EAP, and then told him that the EAP thought he had the look of a policeman about him. He knows it is not normal, and has asked what his mum is playing at. I have tried to explain limerance and the addictiveness of what she is going through while also explaining that it is symptomatic of our R problems that we need to solve. He is old enough to be honest with - you're right, I don't want to normalise this in anyway, but he deserves honesty when he asks a question. I get it though - he has already had to grow up early in so many ways, he needs space still to be a kid and not feel the burden of his parent's problems.

I'm sorry to come darn so hard on you but I want to get your attention. This is not okay - any of it. I hope you can talk to a professional to get some clarity here as its badly needed.

That's OK, it helps to have someone telling it as it is. I'm not here for sympathy, I'm here for help and advice in whatever form it's given. Yes, I will seek professional help, and will also get some coaching, now that I know there will be continuity of wages coming in. Thanks.

[Woke_Up]

Okay, so you can't look like you are happy for what you have done? I'm opening a virtual champagne for you tonight! I defer to the vets if this makes things better or worse, but you did what you felt you had to do and I applaud you for that. Status quo is over, so what next? I'm praying for you. What did SS?

What next - that's where I'm unsure. Her moods go up & down, as does her anxiety. She is better in the mornings than the evenings. I'm still trying to keep myself busy, keep some space between us. There is very little physical contact at the moment, if any, other than brushing past each other.

She still spews, I had to stop her last night when she immediately went into verbal abuse mode for no apparent reason - I'm working on picking her up on this every time. It does't necessarily stop her, but it lets her know that I'm not accepting of it. as I have been so many times in the past.

I need to work on me. Getting time just to think about what I need to work on. I'll dig out my DB goals later once she has gone to bed. I've had to keep the book well hidden, fortunately, as she went trough my stuff in my work bag where I usually kept it, and also ripped up my other self help/infidelity books.

And when I say work on me, I mean my spiritual and mental self. My exercise & Krav Maga is going OK, and I have been more proactive getting things done around the house & garden. I need to work out what I have done wrong previously, work out what isn't working now, work out how to be happier in myself, so I don't need praise and validation and reassurance, which I have needed previously, even if it wasn't often forthcoming. My mindfulness has suffered these last couple of weeks, without my usual train journey to meditate.

I think there is a touch of MLC going on, although I don't think that was the primary reason for the EA. She had botox done yesterday and is booked in for some more beauty treatment today, so that's the best part of £1000 gone... She was even talking about a nose job today! She doesn't
t need a flaming nose job, she is beautiful! OK, she deserves access to money, so I'm not making an issue, but I get told I am selfish whenever I want to do something, or spend anything (like when I mentioned buying a new wardrobe a couple of weeks ago, or my GAL activities. I think she stresses about money (if I was to be out of work for any period of time) but then is unable to prevent herself spending it on what she feels she deserves. She feels the victim so someone else (me) has to be the bad guy.

SS didn't really say much, just nodded and said he understood. Gave her a hug when we are at the dinner table.

WW has told me before that SS takes my side in what is going on ( I don't want sides taken) but she is his mother so he will always be loyal to her. I think SS has spoken to her after I have spoken to him before, when things were pretty bad and it looked like separation was on the cards. To be fair, when it blew up big time in September, not long after initial BD and had allegedly stopped (and it was then going straight on again), he came & told me that I was his dad, I would always be his dad, and he would still see me whatever happened.

I know DonH said not to involve him, and that is right, but it has been unescapable, with all of us in the house and W not caring about when she rages, or if it is in front of the kids. And me. I've been no angel, when deep in anger, or caught in the argument. I flared up and said things to her when the kids are around. DonH is right, I need the counselling of a professional so that I can become more balanced and try and keep things more healthy at home, especially for the kids sake.

Hope you are well, Gordie, my man. Rooting for you.

[Gordie]

Woke_Up,

1. Sounds like you are doing pretty well given the circumstances. If it's really over with the EA, then she must be suffering withdrawal, so no surprise re the spewing, lack of physical contact, and space. Good that you're not accepting the spewing; sounds like you are pretty calm/detached.

2. Yes, my W spends money the same way yours does. That is one of the things I am looking forward to in terms of separation and divorce...separate bank accounts!

3. Re kids. Yes, it's best to shield them from all of this stuff and that they don't take sides. So sweet that he came and told you that you were his dad, no matter what. It takes a mature and brave kid to say that.

4. I think my W and I have done pretty well in shielding our kids, except for the few flare ups when my W was so loud, the neighbors next door could hear. I know the kids heard her shouting and screaming but they've never mentioned anything about it to me.

5. Good luck finding a counselor. Take your time to find one you really trust or else you won't be able to open yourself up the way you need to. I tried out a few before I found the right one.

[Woke_Up]

Gordon, thanks.

1. I think so, but not sure for how long. I glanced at her phone today. She had unblocked the OM from Skype, but no conversations. He had hanged his status to 'missing my friend' so I expect he will start pursuing her soon.

2. We already have separate accounts. She is a SAhM so I try not to think of it as anything other than 'our' money. I just get ticked off now and again by our different spending habits when I am conscious of the bills and taxes. Hey ho, that's the way it goes.

3. He is a great kid. I just need to make sure I let him know this enough...

4. It's good that you can do that. I wish we were better at it.

5. Good advice, I will shop around.

[Woke_Up]

So today... it's day before D4 turns 5. Busy day getting things ready, doing school run. W was busy with a friend getting party things ready.

Unfortunately I checked her phone again. While it appears there has been no contact so far, she has unblocked him on Skype, and his status suggests he will try to weasel back in. She also had voice recordings from him on her phone, I won't go into details but some were pretty disgusting.

This got me to thinking. Can I keep doing this? Carrying on back in the same position again. I don't think I can.

Anyway, W went upstairs for a lie down in the afternoon. I popped up to see her and asked how she was coping with withdrawals. Said it would be better for her if she deleted reminders - pics, etc. Then I told her form my perspective that I couldn't do it again. If she went back, then we would need to formally separate (in house), and then take it from there.

I felt pretty sick after this. It's something I know I will have to do, I can't go on in the same way and I can't give meaningless boundaries.

Later, when she was in the utility room, she told me she had been thinking about my ultimatum. She said she had spoken to one of her female friends, who had apparently said that couldn't she just be friends with this guy, nothing had happened, really. I said I disagreed with her friend. That if you are having conversations with someone of the opposite sex and you won't share them with your SO then a line has been crossed.

She then said she thought OM would stalk her. I said he couldn't if she got rid of the means of communication. She also said she though he might try to kill himself. I said I doubted it.

She then said that OM wasn't really the issue. I agreed that he was a symptom and that we had a lot of issues to work through that had been there a long time.

D4 then came through so we had to stop he discussion.

I need to really work on what to do next. Gotta keep calm, stop myself spinning.

I need to learn to be her best friend again. Figure out what emotional needs she she has that I am not meeting. I will start writing things down, work through our history. I think that from what I know, this EA and a PA she had when she was with her ex husband both revolved around friendship. I believe she has many FOO issues, and they have led to this,.

I also have my FOO issues and need to identify those and work through them with a professional as has been suggested. Back to work next week, should be able to find a counsellor in London close by.

[Gordie]

If she unblocked him, it seems like she hasn't closed that door and from her words is more concerned about the OM's welfare than yours. So why do you think she's ready to work on reconciling with you?

[Woke_Up]

She isn't. She was back on Skype to him just a few minutes ago. She didn't realise her 2nd phone automatically signs youn in to her account.

What now?

I've left the house for a bit to cool down. I'm going to call to set up some DB coaching. I need to get my shizz together.

[Gordie]

You have her an ultimatum. Are you going to follow through? How?

[sandi2]

I agree with everything DonH said. She threw a whopper tantrum and got rewarded. Did you think that letting her spew all over you would cause her to respect you as a man? And why would you be touching her the next day and serving her coffee? Did she show any signs of sorrow for how she behaved, or did she apologize? You rewarded her for treating you like $hit. Why?

Look, she is not going through withdrawals if she has some type of connection to OM. She has to be totally cut off from his picture, recorded voice, old messages, etc. The absence of those connections is what causes the withdrawal. Also, if she was in withdrawal and then connected to OM in some fashion......she would have to start all over in the withdrawal process.

It concerns me that the tone of your recent post sounds as if you are joining the ranks of men who won't be the kind of H to enforce firm boundaries, and they decide to change their WW to a MLC, b/c somehow, that makes more sense to them. MLC is not easier, but I do get the impression that some H's choose to say his W is MLC, rather than accepting the tough challenges of the WW. I hope you won't give up, b/c I think you've got what it takes to get back the respect of your WW and have a happy MR.

[Woke_Up]

The best advice I can give you is to call a Divorce Busting Coach today. Many of your online friends will agree that Divorce Busting coaches will give you the best advice on how to save your marriage and keep your family together. Please call me to discuss our coaching program 303-444-7004. We work with many, many people that are overseas and working out the time difference isn't an issue

Hi Cristy

I called and got the voicemail, left a message, just before 4PM your time. What are your office hours? I'll try again on Monday.

[Woke_Up]

You have her an ultimatum. Are you going to follow through? How?

Working that out. We talked when I got back in. I'll go into details later. Same old 'she'll pick a day and I'll have to take her phones and laptop'...

I may talk to L again and see how a legal sep would work while living in the same house, if at all possible under UK law. I also left a voicemail for a DB coach to call me back, guess I missed the office hours just.

I did tell W that I couldn't be with her if she was still with him, that I could work on being a better husband, but I needed my wife back first.

Anyway, I need my rest, D4 turns 5 tomorrow

[Woke_Up]

I agree with everything DonH said. She threw a whopper tantrum and got rewarded. Did you think that letting her spew all over you would cause her to respect you as a man? And why would you be touching her the next day and serving her coffee? Did she show any signs of sorrow for how she behaved, or did she apologize? You rewarded her for treating you like $hit. Why?

No, no apology. I guess she seemed calmer and I probably read remorse into it. No, I did read remorse into it, but that was my wishful thinking.

Look, she is not going through withdrawals if she has some type of connection to OM. [/quote}

Yep, she is definitely not going through withdrawals.

[quote=sandi2]It concerns me that the tone of your recent post sounds as if you are joining the ranks of men who won't be the kind of H to enforce firm boundaries, and they decide to change their WW to a MLC, b/c somehow, that makes more sense to them. MLC is not easier, but I do get the impression that some H's choose to say his W is MLC, rather than accepting the tough challenges of the WW. I hope you won't give up, b/c I think you've got what it takes to get back

I hear you, Sandi, and I am sure it is not MLC, just some similar things going on - but she has and this concern over aging for years, pretty much ever since I've known her and probably before. I think there are FOO issues rather than MLC.

Ultimately there are R issues for which I am 50% responsible, and now she has gone wayward. I am glad you have some confidence in me, because it's taking me a long, hard trek to get to having confidence in myself. I'm not giving up, I was thinking of a S as a way to get space and focus on improving myself, but I haven't really thought it through yet - with the volatility of our R and our current sitch, I don't know if an in house S will work. I suspect the answer is in my head, my mentality rather than 'formalising' a sep. Let's face it, we are already in different bedrooms. I guess it means switching off to her temp checking behaviours.

[sandi2]

Do not go for in-house separation. That is the biggest of all cake eating for her. I have not seen any in-house reconciliations.

[sandi2]

How about an update?

[Woke_Up]

Friday: when I got back, she asked me how I was. I said not the best, but I was calm. W told me that she would end it, that she wasn't going to leave for someone she had never met, she just needed to pick a day and I would need to take her devices off her. I said how about now, but W said she wasn't ready yet.

I told her that I had deleted the filthy message off her phone, and she said that that was what she didn't like, that I kept going weird and invading her privacy.

However, soon after she she started telling me that she thought I would go back to how I was, I would start being a [censored] again, that I never spoke to her, that I never had, etc. By the end I said it sounded like she had already talked herself out of it. She said she hadn't, so I just said ok, wished her goodnight, and left her room, went to bed and tried to sleep.

Saturday; D's birthday - had a great party for her with plenty of her school friends, kept me busy in the morning, and was a good time. Tried not to let things prey on my mind too much, but it was a struggle. Anyway, Saturday is well documented in my earlier post.

Sunday: Trapped into a rage fest... W asked me an innocuous sounding question 'What was I going to do with my inheritance'. I'm waiting on the sale of a house from my deceased aunt to proceed - it's not a lot of money, split 3 ways with my brothers, the house is in a really poor part of the country. Anyway, I said I would pay my tax, as I hadn't managed to save enough over the last 2 years. That was apparently the wrong answer. I was accused of being dishonest, of just saving the money (which is true, but I just used savings to pay this year's tax bill, so I want to replenish it) - Somehow I'm selfish and only thinking about what I can get for myself.

Then it degenerated into random accusations, stuff from the past, - I don't want to repeat exactly what it was, but it was enough to make me flip out as she insinuated I'd be happy to see my daughter harmed due to my previous political views (which incidentally, she is wrong on, but memory is selective) - we did have a lot of arguments last year about what was happening to the country and to Europe in general.

She also started saying that I had no right to invade her stuff, that she had found and read the leaflet on boundaries that I had printed out and that I should learn to respect them, that I was not to touch her things, she would put locks on the door, that I wasn't to hack her (not actually 'hacked' her for a long time). That I shouldn't have deleted things from her phone, stuff that she wanted to keep, that she would just have to ask for more. I said she was sick. I also sent another message to OM at this point, I was quite angry.

There was also a lot of stuff about the house, I said the wrong thing again (You/the kids don't need such a big house, if we split up we need 2 smaller houses) - etc etc. Stupid, I know. She accused me of being exactly like her father, that was what he had said. Different circumstances. Definitely wrong thing to say though.

There was also stuff about me 'stealing her bed, her room, her bathroom' again, and that she wouldn't go no contact with OM while I was stealing her bed. I just told her that if that was her bed, she should point out to me where my bed was, as I couldn't think of another one that was mine...

All in all - it was a rage build up & release. I think back to Surfers posts to me early on. Drama triangle stuff, verbal abuse and rage build ups and pay offs. It fits.

She was a lot calmer Sunday night. Almost as if it hadn't happened. I have no idea or the necessary skills with how to deal with these moments. She said she was lonely, and that she was a sad person, when I asked why. I said I was also lonely at the moment. She said I didn't talk to her - I told her it was difficult in the circumstances. She then asked a strange question - she asked me to put her off the OM - point out his flaws etc. I said she shouldn't really be asking me, that it was a bit inappropriate, but she asked 'why?' and to help her. I ran through what I saw as the defects in the EAP.

Monday: Morning, W & I talked some more and again said she was going to get rid of her EAP, but that he would try and get her back - he had contacted her through twitter last time she had blocked him. That I would have to have her phones and reply to him if he got in touch saying it was me. She showed me some message she had sent - saying that I had contacted again, but exaggerating the content. Telling her I had said I was going to beat his a$$...

I hadn't, I actually asked him what would his parents think about him sending disgusting messages to another man's wife. WW thought this was really funny when I told her. Especially as he is nearly 30. Then again, he lives in a trailer on his parents property, I think, so I guess what they think may be important... He'd also said he would kill me if I ever came to Florida, that I better not go on his property. I guess threatening to tell mom & pop riled him up

Later, W asked me to pick up a valentines card for me from her when I was out shopping with D, and some flowers would be nice. She asked this in front of the kids. So basically I bought 3 cards... one for me from her, one for her from me, and 1 that D liked. I also bought the damn flowers, I was also buying some for SS16 to give to his girlfriend, and a single stem that D5 picked out for herself - one of those printed multicoloured roses.

W put the flowers in water that night.

Tuesday, valentines day: W wrote out a card for me (mind you didn't put her name in it, probably in case I sent a photo to OM). In the card she said I was sexy and that she loved me.

I wrote her a card from D5, and got D5 to sign it.

I went out to pick up a few things from a shop later, for her Grandma's birthday (yes, I am still running her errands), and got on the phone to DB to book some coaching. First session on Saturday. I hope I can get some privacy away from W & kids.

I didn't give her her card..... until I [censored] relented at about 10PM.

I tried to speak to her about stuff. She only wanted to talk about her Botox and how she wasn't happy with the results. I told her it had been a difficult day, after being told on Monday that she would get rid of the EAP, and then her not doing it again. I asked if she wanted help to do it, but she said she would do it on her own. She told me I should relax!!!!! Anyway, I said I appreciated her giving me a valentines card and reaching out to me, and then told her I had left her card in her room.

We also ended up ML. (I know, the disapproval is palpable)

I am back at square 1. This is ridiculous. I need to stop myself focussing on the OM and her comms with him. I fully expect to get sh!te from the vets here, as I know I am letting myself be manipulated by someone better at the game than me. Much better. I failed to stand up to my own boundary yet again. Another meaningless ultimatum. She must smell the desperation on me.

On a happier note, I started new contract today, so back at work - won't be around home so much. Early starts and late finishes are back. I'll miss having so much extra time with D5, but it's good to be back in work again after 2 weeks out.

I will also be able to dig out my DR book and start refreshing. I have had to have it well hidden the last 2 , as she has pretty much gone through every bit of paper of mine she could find, at some point. I really don't need her finding the book.

Anyway, apologies for this long and rambling update.

[Gordie]

Woke_Up,

As you point out, what you are doing isn't working...you are back at square 1.

What do you want to change the dynamic? What do you need to change within yourself to enforce your boundaries? As you know, boundaries with no consequences are worse than no boundaries at all.

Maybe a baby step? The next time your W asks you to do something for her, just say no...or if no seems too abrupt, then I can't do things for you under the current circumstances.

And re ML..just asking: why did you do it? how did it make you feel? did you think it was helpful or hurtful to your situation?

[sandi2]

When will you learn that talking with her does not work?

W told me that she would end it, that she wasn't going to leave for someone she had never met, she just needed to pick a day and I would need to take her devices off her. I said how about now, but W said she wasn't ready yet.

And you did nothing? I mean, this ^^^^says it all.

I think I've said this once before, that it is her responsibility to end the A. She is playing games with you when she says she needs a day for you to take off her devices. By saying she wasn't ready yet.......she is saying she wants to f--k OM some more.

However, soon after she she started telling me that she thought I would go back to how I was, I would start being a [censored] again, that I never spoke to her, that I never had, etc. By the end I said it sounded like she had already talked herself out of it. She said she hadn't, so I just said ok, wished her goodnight, and left her room, went to bed and tried to sleep.

This can be filed under WW BS. I won't quote all the paragraphs, I'll just say that your W is manipulating you and playing you like a toy.

She also started saying that I had no right to invade her stuff, that she had found and read the leaflet on boundaries that I had printed out and that I should learn to respect them, that I was not to touch her things, she would put locks on the door, that I wasn't to hack her (not actually 'hacked' her for a long time). That I shouldn't have deleted things from her phone, stuff that she wanted to keep, that she would just have to ask for more. I said she was sick. I also sent another message to OM at this point, I was quite angry.

She has challenged you at every turn and she continues to see no action from her H. She is really putting it out there......seeing how much more $h't you'll take.

Why are you sending OM another message? You aren't M to him. Surely you don't expect a man who is having an affair with a married woman to do the honorable thing! Don't expect the AP to do the job you can't get your W to do.

Later, W asked me to pick up a valentines card for me from her when I was out shopping with D, and some flowers would be nice. She asked this in front of the kids. So basically I bought 3 cards... one for me from her, one for her from me, and 1 that D liked. I also bought the damn flowers,

Seriously? This tells a lot about the dynamics in your MR.

We also ended up ML. (I know, the disapproval is palpable)

Manipulation!

[Woke_Up]

Woke_Up,

As you point out, what you are doing isn't working...you are back at square 1.

What do you want to change the dynamic? What do you need to change within yourself to enforce your boundaries? As you know, boundaries with no consequences are worse than no boundaries at all.

Gordie, thanks for your post. I know, I am really struggling with putting things into action. What do I want to change? So much.i want to be able to not be at the whim of her moods, with my responses and emotions tied to hers. I want to be able to avoid the arguments in front of the kids, which I try my best on. I want to be able not to engage, to find the time for myself in all of this. But I don't seem to be able to. I get back from work at around 7:30 pm - school is out at the moment, so D then needs a bath, story, bed and she is not playing ball I get to eat dinner gone 9pm. Then I am almost out of time - I do a few jobs around the house. Last night W wanted to watch a film together, while we ate diner. We started watching, but then I saw her on her phone, messaging... she hid the phone when I got up to get the ketchup from the table, and it was obvious she was on to OM. I said something about her doing it while I was sitting in the same room, and then I left the room. Finished my dinner in the study, went for a walk on the garden, and then took the car to the tyre shop, dropped I off and cycled home. Then went to bed, although she still had me help her sort her bed out when she wasn't happy with yet another memory foam mattress topper she had bought.

Maybe a baby step? The next time your W asks you to do something for her, just say no...or if no seems too abrupt, then I can't do things for you under the current circumstances.

I have tried this, and should probably be firmer and weather the S##t storm that will follow. It starts with how she does EVERYTHING, looks after my children, I'll have to start asking her to look after the children and to do things if she has to ask me, etc. We have had plenty of typical WW spew this morning. All scripted. This was about her room (the MBR) - I had forced her out, stand len it, stolen her bathroom, her wardrobe (she actually lit my clothes in there and moved hers out), stole her bed, and it's the only one she can Ben comfortable on, after having my child ruined her back and pelvis... then she said we should go our separate ways, that I would try to rip her off because I am self employed, that she knows how men work. She would be happy with just the house and not take a penny off me (this is so laughable, we afford it as I am self employed, we wouldn't afford it if I was in a regular 9-5, and as she has been a sahm, she is not in a career position. She also resents this. Anyway, she is fixated on the bedroom issue, but even if I moved back out, it wouldn't change her behaviour. She wasn't even willing for me to take the study as my space - that was why she let me back into the bedroom - rather that than let me have part of the house for me. There is a major control issue here. This morning she was telling me she would have no choice but to emigrate, as she couldn't afford the UK if she didn't get the house. This is a threat and done to hurt, as OM is in the US.

And re ML..just asking: why did you do it? how did it make you feel? did you think it was helpful or hurtful to your situation?

I am one of those people who likes to be physically close to feel emotionally close. I guess it was my way of trying to get her emotionally involved with me again, and feeling that there is still hope, that all is not lost. However, I suspect that she was just horny on this occasion and I was being manipulated, consciously or unconsciously. It wasn't hurtful to my sitch specifically, but always feels weird when she then goes off to her room.

[Gordie]

Woke Up,

You are in deep pain. Your W has you wrapped around her finger. She gets to do whatever she wants (EA, text OM in your presence, spew, ML) with no consequences? Have you read about codependency? It's when there is one sick partner (your W) and the other person enables their behavior (doing tasks for her, preventing her from facing the natural consequences for her actions). I've recently read up on this because I am guilty of some of this in my R. The sick person can continue in their sickness longer when the partner is constantly protecting them. If this sounds familiar, maybe read more about it as these behaviors are often decades in the making and really hard to change.

[Gordie]

After you ML...she then leaves to the other room?

[Woke_Up]

Gordie, I haven't read up on it, it was on my to do list. I'll prioritise it. I had more of the same when I got back from taking D5 out. At least that was a nice time. Took her to spend some of her birthday money at the Disney store in the city, then took her for lunch.

W was still talking emigration when I returned. Then. As I was going to cycle to collect my car, she offered to take me. I picked some ingredients up for dinner then wanted to get some privacy for my DB coaching, and W wasn't letting me. I'd said I had a training call and she was just going to sit in the study while I did it to see what I was up to - she thought I was going to talk to a L again. I eventually had to tell her I was talking to a counsellor to help me with the difficult situation. I ended up going out into the garage for the call.

Afterwards she started pressuring me, wanted to know who it was, which company, what I talked about. When I said if she wanted counselling she should find someone, she started saying that OM was her counsellor and that I had interfered and wouldn't give her any privacy so she wouldn't give me any privacy. I had to leave the area.

Then, at dinner she started asking more questions, I had to deflect as much as possible, just said it was mostly stuff to work on me with my issues and help with my anxiety.

Then she started saying that she was torn, but then started bringing up past stuff, the stuff that led to this sitch. I validated where I could, but it wasn't easy. She always does this in front of D. I was trying not to get into any type of R talks, as per DB coach but I wasn't being let off the hook.

Things weren't so bad later, W had a bath with D, and was happy enough for me to be in there, then we spoke about inconsequential things later in her room, and I had my hand on her leg at one point, which she was ok with. Also, just before bed, she asked me to keep her company while she went out to smoke a joint. She has started doing this almost nightly since this sitch got bad. She was going to stop but lasted 2 days. Apparent going to stop again on Monday, however I'm not holding out. I do think this is linked to her EA and addictiveness/anxiety.

When she did go to bed, although pleasant before hand, she didn't bother saying goodnight. I resisted the urge to go to her room and say it.

All in all, this day has sucked.

[Woke_Up]

After you ML...she then leaves to the other room?

Yes, not immediately, but yes. This was the first time we had ML since she moved out of the MBR about 3-4 weeks ago.

[Woke_Up]

So DB coaching session today. Went through our history and current sitch.

Talked a little bit about what had caused it - W had gone onto Twitter to find like minded people as we were arguing a lot about issues in Europe and the UK with the mass immigration situation and various sex attacks. She felt I was putting out D in danger as I had slightly different views to her. There's more to it but I don't particularly want to share it on here.

Anyway, my coach suggested a softer approach, as has been Sen elsewhere. Try to build a friendship. Treat her as a friendly houseguest. Stop all pursuing behaviours, and stop my snooping. She also told me to stop focussing on OM, not to contact him again, he was obviously not a decent man to be doing what he is doing when he knows there is a family involved. Lots of stuff people on here have already said.

She also suggested a couple of books to get, including the 5 love languages.

She felt there were issues with how much we fight, and the fact that we both need to be right, but those could be addressed. 'Right fighters' she called it.

Then, as I said above, I walked back into the remainder of her spew and fight picking.

I'll stop the snooping. I must admit, I did glance this morning after she was talking about emigrating, saying the kids would be safer in America, that Europe was ruined and wouldn't be safe. OM was talking to her about coming to the UK. That won't go well if he does.

I'd told her that I wouldn't let her take my kids away, and that she couldn't legally do it. She threatened to do it illegally. I also told her if OM came over here because she couldn't go over there, it wouldn't end well. That if he went near my kids, I'd break his legs.

Great going eh?

If only you could psychically know when the spew is coming and schedule the coaching for before instead of after.

[Gordie]

Woke Up,

I got similar advice on my first DB coaching session and have been following it. I think you've heard over and over again things you should be doing but I think your issue now is not knowledge but execution. You are inconsistent. You are waffling. Maybe so much advice has been overwhelming. I feel you need to take baby steps. Choose one or two things and follow through on that. If I were in your shoes, the first baby steps I would take that are totally in your control: 1. Stop snooping and 2. End all conversations that involve spewing (walk out of the room or leave the house or say I do not want to talk to you like this, if you must say something).

[Woke_Up]

Gordie

Thanks, that's good advice - maybe I have been focussing on doing the hard stuff, the stuff that goes against my years of conditioning. Even stopping snooping will be a victory for me - I did manage it for a few weeks since coming on this forum, but then relapsed.

Agree re. the spew - I think I will say something, as it was always a point of contention that I would 'run away' from arguments rather than sort them out. Although sorting them out was never often achieved, and isn't happening at the moment.

I did a little bit of googling on co-dependency last night, after what you said, and there were several alarm bells there with my behaviours. Low self confidence, need to rescue/fix, poor self boundaries, not having the ability to say no.

I see now in this and in past relationships I have been trying to rescue from whatever difficult situation my partner was in, or from previous bad relationships (as in this case, trying to prove that all men aren't the same, that I was a good guy). I have also let go of all of my old friends, mostly since my D arrived, but also because any of my former GAL activities were 'selfish'. I used to DJ and Wakeboard regularly. In fact, I met WW at an afterparty, connected with DJ'ing. Music used to be something we had in common, now it doesn't feature much in our lives.

I have also had issues before when so called 'friends' asked me for money to help them out of a sticky situation, and I was unable to say no, against my better judgement, and then had to move heaven and earth to get the money back. Poor boundaries.

I didn't have poor parental relationships, neither were addicts of anything. I am the youngest of 3 children, we did lose our father when I was 5 years old, and my mother remarried when I was 7. Although there has never been any attempt to obliterate any memories, it has also never been something we have spoken about. My communication with my parents is awful - and that works both ways. In fact, although my mother loves me dearly, and I know this, she never ever says it. I have taken to telling her I love her at the end of phone calls, now that I am in a family where telling each other that we love them is normal. She still never says it back, I think it makes her uncomfortable, although I am not sure why.

I am currently researching IC's close to where my new job is, so I can start working through some of these issues.

[Gordie]

Woke up,

Good work on doing some hard work on you. Keep asking the hard questions about yourself. I'm going to give you the advice others have given me. Take your eyes off of your W and focus on you separate from your W and your R. Start doing the hard work on you. It will help you no matter what happens with your W. What kind of man do you want to be? What do you want to change about yourself...for you?

[Woke_Up]

Things I wish to improve about me: Confidence and assertiveness as and when required. I need to stop second guessing myself and over analysing things. More comfortable with making decisions, not to defer to other as much. More balanced in my life, with time for family, me, and work, and the ability to be more proactive with getting things done, which links to the confidence issue.

I'm doing alright in some respects, I've done OK job and career wise, I'm getting back into probably the best shape I've been in for 10 years, if not 20 years.

But your gentle truth dart hits home - I have still been seeing myself and W as a couple, in R, and focusing on trying to get the EA to stop, get rid of OM, to enable the rift healing to begin. People are right, even though you know, academically, that this won't work, you don't know until you know inside. I think this week, moving from "'I'm going to end it' to ML to 'screw you, I'm emigrating to be with OM', to 'I'm torn, but you'll never change'", has been a clear demonstration of the WW mindset: All over the bloody place.

I only hope I can have the patience and perseverance you have been demonstrating to see me through this and out the other side, a stronger and better man.

[Woke_Up]

I said a while ago I would share my initial goals & objectives. I wrote these back in December, after I received the DR book and started going through it.

First pass:
1. To have more relaxed conversations with me taking a more active and proactive role
2. To be able to have conflict and resolve it without feeling extreme discomfort or resorting to belittling each other
3. To be able to relax around each other and spend more time enjoying each other's company

Second pass:
1.
I will start conversations more often
I will listen attentively when W speaks
W will show interest in what I say
W will explain better what she has been listening to or learning so that I feel part of it

2.
W will not call me insulting names or insult my personality or upbringing when we have an argument
I will not feel the need to escape the conflict to cool down
I will feel happy that we can argue and resolve issues with out insults
I will not patronise W or act morally superior

3.
We will sit on the sofa together, watching a movie or talking
We will share the same bed
We will go out together occasionally (once per month)

Other things I wrote down trying to be more specific:
We will build trust
I will not snoop or spy on her communications
W will make me feel good enough for her, by use of small words and actions
I will not portray W in a bad light when talking about her
W will not belittle me in front of children or family
I will not condescend, patronise or talk over W in front of children or family/friends
We will be supportive of each other's decisions in front of others and keep our disagreements private

Anyway, these were my thoughts back then. I'd appreciate your feedback on them.

[Woke_Up]

So, after Saturday being pretty awful, Sunday was more settled.
I got up. made us both coffee as I usually do - I know what people have said on here, and I asked my DB coach about this issue, she said, well would you do it for a friendly house guest?
I took SS16 to his part time job, came home, got busy, .
while W took D5 to a friend. Later, I picked up S16 and then went shopping for food (she also asked me to fuel her car up while I was at the supermarket!)
When I came home, WW was in the garden. I joined her after a while, helped with getting rid of some rather thorny and overgrown weeds that were taking over.

I made dinner for a change, W was feeling pretty ill, but conversation was OK. She is still obsessing over her looks, complaining how the botox hasn't worked properly, booked herself in for some eyebrow tattoos! (When I pointed out we didn't have money for that - it's not cheap, and with starting the new contact there is a hiatus before my invoices start getting paid again - she said the money could come out of our savings and she would repay it. As it is half her money, I said she could do that.)

When we have talked, we have kept it about non stressful topics, and I have managed to make her laugh a few times.

Later, after we got D5 to bed, I told her I was going out. She wanted to know why and where I was going - so I said just for a walk or a drive, and have to time to myself as I hadn't managed to earlier. She asked me to be careful. I went out for a nice walk, just a few miles, about 45 minutes. It did me good, and aided my sleeping. Something quite calming about walking round the pitch black English countryside at night.

Came home, went to bed - W asked me to wake her up before I left in the morning, so I did, at about 5:45am. Bit later than usual.

On the train to London now, W has been texting me. Tells me she feels terrible, and is having panic attacks, or that maybe something is wrong with her chest.

I ask if anything particular has triggered the attacks, and that we can get her into hospital to be looked at if she thinks it is physical. She replied that I probably her ridiculous situation.

I suggested meditation/mindfulness to help her with her panic attacks and breathing, but she said she need to take her focus off her breathing. She said her chest had gone physically tight through the stress, and she knew what was causing it, but couldn't say on a text... apparently because I am not good with having things in writing (she meant that I have sent screen shots to OM previously to prove we were still together).

Then she messages me that she feels sick - I ask if it is a bug she has picked up or related to anxiety. She said it feels related to something else, but I tell her it is highly unlikely she is pregnant yet, if that is what she means. She agreed that it was probably not that.

So, many riddles this morning. When she does things like this, I wonder if she has done something stupid, like persuade OM to come to the UK, and is stressing about it. But I can't mind read, and these sorts of thoughts are how I persuade myself to snoop again, so I need to stop them.

I've been responding & engaging too much, I think I need to keep it a bit of a lighter touch.

[Woke_Up]

OK, so I was just reading back on LT's sitch and Zues was giving some good advice on validating, boundaries and managing disrespect.

Today, I have managed to screw up again.

WW has her grandma's funeral to attend, but just as I was getting to the office (after a near 3 hr journey) I get a message saying D5 is ill, and can't go to school.

The relevant text messages were as follows:
W: I can't take D to school, she's ill xx
W: I don't know what to do now. Can you call the school and say she has a temp and a headache.
W: Looks like I won't be able to attend the funeral x
M: On it xx you need me to come home early? xx
W: Have to be there just before 2 xx
M: Let me see what I can do xx
M: That's OK, I can leave at 11, get the 11:30 train. I'll check trains from city to village.

There were some other bits and pieces - she asked me to see if SS16 could come home from school, then I phoned her to clarify. She agreed she wanted me home as SS didn't want to miss any lessons, and I'm pretty sure I told her what time the train got into the city - I then need to catch a rural service as my car is in having the brakes sorted.

The problem arose with my misunderstanding - I thought she meant she wanted me home just before 2, expecting the funeral to be at 2:30. She meant that she had to be there just before 2...

So, just jump on the rural train at the city station, at 1:30, send this:

M: I get to village station at 10 to 2, that means I get home about 5 past, is that OK?
W: The funeral is at 2
W: and how r u getting home
M: bike
M: S##t, i could get off at earlier stop if you can meet me there with D5 and then I'll drop you off?
M: or meet me at village station?
W: wtf
M: Is D well enough to go in the car?
W: tw@t
W: I thought S16 would be the problem
M: You said I had to be there just before 2. Sorry
W: No I didn't, I'm trying to get ready
M: Ah, [censored], sorry love
W: I said the funeral is at 2
W:You are a [censored]
W:Explain that to the whole crowd.
W:I can't go them can I. [censored]
M: This is a screw up but there's no need for that. Meet me at the village station with D5 and I'll drive you straight there

No answer from W, plus poor reception. I phoned her from the village station and she was still getting ready, so I cycled home. She was in the car about to leave, D5 was inside crying, as she thought mummy was leaving her alone.

I interrupted the typing of this msg because she got back home. She sat in the car for 10 minutes on her phone. When she came in I asked her how it was. She said terrible, she missed most of it, her dad's speech, and started telling me how I was an idiot, I had known it was at 2 (this is true, it was mentioned a week or 2 ago, I just forgot), that I couldn't be trusted, and the spew just escalated. The insults and belittling, all in front of D5. I tried to validate, say that it was a genuine mistake on my part, but W wouldn't listen. She said this was why she couldn't stand me.

I had to say I wasn't going to be talked to that way, and it shouldn't happen in front of D, got up to leave the room (I was sitting at my desk in the study). She tried to physically block me from leaving the room, started saying that's right run away.

I had to walk around the desk to get out of the room. I walked into the living room, and said we can talk in there. She refused, then went into the kitchen. I went into the kitchen to talk to her, she told me to get out, to get out of her face - in context, I wasn't in her face, we were separated by a kitchen island, length ways. I said that I was there to speak, that I though she wanted to speak. She came round the kitchen island and physically attacked me, tried to hit me, which I stopped, then tried to kick me. I left then. SS16 arrived shortly afterwards, went up to see her (she was in her room by then). He asked me what had happened, I explained, said that I misunderstood, that I screwed up. WW came down, accused my of lying, said that I had to be told these things, and that it had to be said in front of people so that they knew how dangerous I was with my stupidity. Said I should apologise for grabbing her wrists - so I had to explain in front of the kids that she tried to hit me. She said it was my fault, that she told me to leave, so I should have.

Spew continued a while. Brought up some other stuff I had said (like when we were arguing and unable to resolve it, in front of D, I had said I didn't want D to be like her (meaning in terms of arguing). I followed up with I didn't want her to be like me either, that I wanted her to be better, able to deal with things, but I agree, it was a sh!tty thing to say. W said that I couldn't expect to have things on my terms, i.e. leaving the room, I wasn't God, I didn't get to decide what was moral. That I was a stupid man who couldn't understand english, and I needed to be told and the kids needed to hear it. They would be fine, they needed to know life was hard. etc etc.

So... question. How the hell do I deal with this? I don't have the emotional skill set to deal with it effectively. W needs to rage. This funeral issue has upset her even more, understandably. But this is unacceptable even for an upset woman. Any advice? What sort of boundary do I apply in this scenario, particularly when she is upset about missing the funeral. Or do I just get the hell out of dodge for a while? Let her cool down?

[Gordie]

Why are you blaming this all on you? Why did both of you see it as your problem to fix? Do you really do everything (small and big) that your W requests of you? Couldn't W have called the school to tell D was sick herself? Couldn't W have figured out a solution (either get someone to watch the kids or take the sick kid to the funeral...I know neither are ideal, but life is not ideal)?

And where are your boundaries?

*She called and texted you disrespectful names.
*She spewed at you in front of the children.
*She tried to hit and kick you.
*She claimed that you were violent against her.

And if these are boundaries, what are the consequences of crossing them? And if they aren't boundaries...can she do anything without consequences? Spend all of the money in your joint account? Spew at and hit the children? F*** the OM in the MBR while you make her coffee?

[Woke_Up]

Why are you blaming this all on you? Why did both of you see it as your problem to fix? Do you really do everything (small and big) that your W requests of you? Couldn't W have called the school to tell D was sick herself? Couldn't W have figured out a solution (either get someone to watch the kids or take the sick kid to the funeral...I know neither are ideal, but life is not ideal)?

Yes, she could have called the school, but she never does. She always sends me a msg to do it. I don't know why she is unwilling do do this. On the others, yea, she could have. Her view is since that I offered to come home, I let her down - she would have had S16 come home to babysit.

And where are your boundaries?

Good question. I attempted to apply them as follows:

[quote]*She called and texted you disrespectful names.

I responded that there was no need for it, I did not offer a consequence.

[quote]*She spewed at you in front of the children.

I told her it was not appropriate and that I would talk in another room. I left the room, first time. Second time she was standing in the doorway with S and D both in the room, there would have been no way I could exit without physically moving her. I told her it wasn't good for the kids and I didn't want to normalise what was happening. She raged that who was I to determine what was normal.

*She tried to hit and kick you.

Yes, she did. I stopped her. I left the room, but that was what she wanted by then anyway.

*She claimed that you were violent against her.

She did, and I corrected her in front of the kids. Although she said if I didn't get out of the room when she told me to then I deserved to get punched! Madness.

And if these are boundaries, what are the consequences of crossing them?

That's where I have never been able to make any headway. What can I do except leave the house? Which is what she wants half the time? If she puts me in a position where I can't exit without physically moving her? What do you do when you are trapped in that way? What do I do afterwards?

And if they aren't boundaries...can she do anything without consequences? Spend all of the money in your joint account? Spew at and hit the children? F*** the OM in the MBR while you make her coffee?

Well, we don't have a joint account, but often she does a good job of spending the money that she gets as half of this dysfunctional duo on stuff that isn't really necessary- but stopping her money is controlling, and she is employed by my company (just the 2 of us), plus she is a 25% shareholder.

She sometimes spews at the kids, mostly S16 , but to be fair, he can be quite bolshy. It's not usually spew with the kids, it's frustration and wanting the best for them. She has never hit them and I don't believe she would. But you are right - she believes she is entitled to do whatever the hell she wants. This is not because she is wayward. She is wayward because she feels entitled. In her mind I am sure she feels the victim in her waywardness.

I need to sort that IC as soon as possible, because I am not handling this in a healthy way for me or the kids. I remember in our early arguments, W's going on point was if you don't like it, you can leave. Negotiating with a terrorist springs to mind.

But I am open to advice from anyone who has handled similar situations? An aggressive W, when you are not an aggressive person. Being followed and trapped around the house, etc. Kids being brought into the sitch. What is left as a consequence other than leaving, which I don't want to do.

[doodler]

But I am open to advice from anyone who has handled similar situations? An aggressive W, when you are not an aggressive person. Being followed and trapped around the house, etc. Kids being brought into the sitch. What is left as a consequence other than leaving, which I don't want to do.

Woke_Up,

Be observant of how your wife handles you. Lose the fear and use her tactics.

[Woke_Up]

Doodler

She is going for aggression, threats, manipulation, disrespect.

She is now saying she will take back the MBR again, move my stuff out when I am at work, put locks on the door. She won't have me attack her - Says I would have to attack her to get in.

She is continuing to talk about S in front of D5, and even manipulating using D5. When I said D5 couldn't watch videos on her tablet, as it was bed time, come back a minute later to find W has given her her phone, and then I have the drama when I take it off her. W the acts the good guy, cuddling D5. She was using the fact that I phoned one of my oldest friends tonight, saying I was lying and using him for financial advice. Trying to talk about S and custody arrangements, and who gets the house and how my only interest is money... followed by her saying I would have to keep her in the manner to which she is accustomed - for the kids benefit :-/

Then she said that she would talk to her 'friend'. Talk to him about her grandmother's funeral (as I hadn't asked). Bearing in mind that when I asked how it was, that was what kicked off the massive rage and attempted physical assault earlier. This was in front of D5, so D5 asks who her friend is. She tells her he lives a long way away, and when D5 asks, tells her his name. All the while looking at me and gloating, sneering. I left the room.

Then she gets her weed, which she was supposed to be giving up, and goes out back to smoke.

Not sure I can use those tactics against her... All I can do is stand up to her and let her know she won't get it all her own way. I'm crying inside for my poor kids.

[Gordie]

I think there are some threads around here from folks who have dealt with verbally and physically abusive spouses. I haven't dealt with that, so feel like I can't give advice. Maybe you need some IRL help on that front too...join a support group? Call the police? Go to a safe house? As a man...I know there is a stigma against that...but it's very difficult to defend yourself in a physical way...and then it's almost always going to be blamed on you. I don't know what to tell you.

[Woke_Up]

Gordie

I know, there's no easy way to deal with it. If she pushes the MBR thing, I will have to accept it, rightly or wrongly. I'm still set on taking the study as my space, rather than the spare bedroom, I'm not sure if that is being petty, I'll see how I feel when it comes to it. You're right, I need support. When I spoke to my friend, he agreed counselling was a good idea, and was going to get some recommendations from his SO. He suggested some initial intensive sessions to get my head together and help me deal with things.

Now, WW mindset. I'm lying in bed. WW comes into room, I think to use the ensuite bathroom to brush her teeth before bed. She climbs onto the bed, and lays with her head on my chest. Then says she thinks she might be pregnant, that she feels pregnant! I said if she is, then we really need to get better at this, for the sake of her health. Last time, she had a difficult pregnancy, plus went nuts with hormones - pretty much PMS x 1000 or, as she is as a wayward, I guess. It was a bad time when it should have been a happy time.

Also talks about how she has headaches and earaches and should maybe see a doctor. I agreed it might be a good idea. I asked if she wanted to talk about anything. She shook her head.

Then she says her back hurts, but when I said it was the gardening taking its toll, she said it was the bed. She went quiet after that, went downstairs (another joint, I presume) came back up, brushed her teeth, then went to bed. She did say goodnight.

This stuff is WTF crazy. I'm not even sure if she is doing it deliberately or whether it is just her mindset being all over the place.

[Woke_Up]

Now going through Doodlers sitch from the beginning. There's some good advice and so many similarities from the posters.

This made me smile though:

I was wondering if I could get some feedback from members of this forum about what you think the difference is between an opposite sex friendship and an EA? What are the factors that make it an EA?

Anyone? Anyone?

When they're talking about how much the'd like to f### each other, it's more than likely an EA. And yet she still calls him her 'friend'.

[sandi2]

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubb...316#Post2722316

The link above is from one of our LBH's. You might want to check it out.

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Sandi, reading it now.

Yesterday was quiet. Got home after7, D5 was still up, took a long time to get her to eat and have a bath, then to sleep.

WW was OK, but was just talking about her eyebrow and eyeliner tattoos.

D5 woke up after midnight, I couldn't get her settled. Lost patience and asked WW to look after her. I was a bit ratty, TBH. She didn't, just made a comment about her needing sleep too with having a bad back, a rubbish bed, and also needing to get up early.

I eventually took D5 into my bed to settle her.

Didn't contact WW all day until SS16 messaged me to ask for a lift after his Youth club. I let WW know what was going on and that I'd gethim after training.

Then got a text from WW saying something was up with D5, that she kept repeating our arguments and was very clingy. (really, this is having an impact, why does she seem surprised).

I replied that I'd noticed she was repeating what we said, and that we had to do a better job of protecting them both from what is going on, and that it's bond to be upsetting for D5.

WW replied she agreed, and that the solution doesn't look good.

I suspect she means we need to separate.

[Woke_Up]

I understand what Surfer and SH mean by fear. I am living in that fear. I seem unable to prevent the kids from being involved. That is my greatest fear. How do I protect them from this?

[doodler]

I understand what Surfer and SH mean by fear. I am living in that fear. I seem unable to prevent the kids from being involved. That is my greatest fear. How do I protect them from this?

Woke_Up,

I haven't read your entire thread, but I assume you've discussed your situation with a lawyer/solicitor. Is that correct?

My situation is probably somewhat unique. I keep my sons safe because the OM fears me and my XW fears she'll lose custody of the boys. I reinforce their (OM and XW) fears on occasion. Also, both of my sons have a cell phone and they're old enough to call and get help.

I don't particularly like being a bully, but it keeps my sons safe. They are never physically exposed to the OM so it's worth the effort.

In your situation, I think finding a good lawyer that will help is probably your best bet.

[Woke_Up]

Doodler

I have basically had a telephone consultation with a L, but mostly focussing on what would be the usual terms of a separation when not married. WW found my notes and has used this to fuel her spew, saying I am only interested in money and getting 50% of the assets.

When it comes to custody I would want joint custody, however am not in a position to offer 50/50 in terms of having the kids - not yet. WW doesn't work, I am out for 13-14 hours a day. I want to change this, hence studying for a new qualification. The other option is to go back to a regular job rather than being self employed, but that would mean that we couldn't afford the current house we live in.

It's something I could contemplate after S if that happens, and if we sell the house. WW keeps saying she wants the house. I just want to be able to afford somewhere that I can have the kids stay with me that's comfortable, although I will be sad to wave goodbye to the 2 acres we have.

I need to see L again. L did recommend that if it comes to it, agree separate spaces in the house and put locks on doors, etc, rather than have spew and rage and bad atmosphere.

I know it's against DB, but I wonder if giving her back the MBR and taking my own space in the house will help matters. She is fixated on her back and pelvis trouble and that I stole 'her' bed. Or is that being a doormat? As someone said, should I eat sh!t for the sake of D5?

I am nowhere near being detached. I am still harbouring the mindset that if only she would dump OM, we could weather the storm of her withdrawals and work on things.

I know this is wrong.

I know our R is over. But my feelings do not say this. My feelings say keep trying, and are preventing me from letting go.

[doodler]

Woke_Up,

I think you're in the most difficult phase of this; you're not sure which direction to go because there are so many unknowns right now.

I honestly don't know what is DB and what isn't DB, but I wouldn't give up the MBR - period. In my opinion, you need to be perceived as strong. Don't give-in to her demands. Don't allow her to get you to do things that she can do. Don't back down, and be ready to invoke consequences as necessary. It's tough to be tough, but you've got to be tough.

[Woke_Up]

Yeah, I need to be tough, stop trying to help and fix.

Just had this interaction:
W:I think this storm is affecting me. I feel really unstable today, struggling to hold it together. Doesn't help when D5 tells me she hates me cos I don't have a blind bag for her.

Me: Would it help if I came straight home and looked after D5, you can get some space and peace. She is just processing through a lot of emotions at the moment. She doesn't mean it. She told me she hated me last night in the bathroom.

W: Not being funny but you don't really give me a break when you are here. You make things worse.

Me. OK, I'll stick to plan A then.

I thought that was it, but the spew is now coming as I sit here typing on the train.

W is saying: We have never been on the same page. She will bring up D better on her own. Though you want joint custody, so I don't know how you will keep up with your leisure activities then... (she obviously doesn't understand the meaning of joint!)

W: I think my internet friend is a very good excuse for you to blame everything on that, so I don't see how life would be any different with you.

W: and what's more, this atmosphere is very bad for D (no shizz, Sherlock)

W: I'm very happy to sell the house and get my bed back too.

Arghhh... I haven't responded yet. My train is delayed, which may prevent me going to Krav Maga tonight if it doesn't get a move on. I just see another rage/spew build up coming when I get home.

It's hard to act 'as if' when this is what you get. Some friendly houseguest that I have living there

Do I validate via text, or do I leave it?

[Woke_Up]

Journaling, as this is the only place where my thoughts are private and safe:

Train was late due to storm so missed my Krav training session, went home. W had bathed D5 and she was in W's bed ready for story. W left the room, I did the stories and her school reading with her, got her settled down to sleep. Interaction with W was minimal, but no unpleasantness.

Went out and picked up SS16, took him to his grandma's to stay as he has his job on Fridays.

Got home, W in utility room smoking a joint. She looks in through window and smiles at me, but I think she was just checking I wasn't snooping at her phone which was charging. She talked a little bit about the storm, and D5 being stroppy with her. My personal thoughts are that D5 is picking up bad lessons from W's and my interactions. Sad.

She went upstairs, then asked me to move D5 from her bed into D's room. I did. I almost snooped at her phone but stopped myself 2 digits into the pass code. Minor victory.

I tidied up downstairs, then went to W's room to get my new gumshield which D5 had opened and been playing with. Said thanks and good night. W said good night, reasonably pleasantly. I'm just working on keeping the interactions pleasant and detached - friendly house guest.

I still feel the fear of not knowing how she is going to be when I am around, when things will suddenly escalate out of nowhere. If the kids weren't around, I feel I would be able to cope with this much more positively, but then again, maybe I would also lose my patience more often?

4 goals -

1. Clear the debts. still have some credit cards left from last house when we built an extension. Low interest, but still hanging around.
2. Be more financially astute - religiously save the tax money and then some.
3. complete my online training within 4 weeks, and get new qualification within 8.
4. Obtain new contract closer to home - 6 months.

Still struggling to find time to GAL, think I may book myself on a horse riding lesson with D5 in the next couple of weeks.

[sandi2]

I'm concerned about your little girl. I hope you will consider counseling for her. Your WW won't put the needs of her children over her own warped sense of entitlement.

Unfortunately, I think your W has been spoiled for a long time, and I don't think it will be an easy task of turning things around. I believe it is possible.........I'm just not completely sure you have the toughness that's needed to deal with this type of person. Frankly, you have enabled her quite a bit. Now, she is so self-centered that she doesn't see the emotional destruction she's doing to her little girl.......and she is more concerned for her own comforts than being an attentive mother when she's needed in the middle of the night. If I remember correctly, she has been that way ever since having her second child.

I can understand how exhausting it can be when getting up at night. My H was good to pick up the slack when I would give out. However, the way you seem to have been assigned to the late shift to care for D5 while Miss Entitlement gets her beauty sleep just hits a nerve in my maternal instincts.

Here's what I have witnessed several times IRL, this type of spouse (who is similar to your WW) in their first marriage. You would recognize the first W/H, who tolerated it and tried to make the most of things by accommodation. Eventually, the first M would end, and a second marriage came. But the second W/H never tolerated the behavior seen in the first M. And you know what? They would have a great MR, b/c the cr@p behavior was not allowed from day one. It would be amazing to witness the transformation in the spouses from that first M.

[Woke_Up]

Ok, need to do some journaling from Friday to today, but going to start with today:

Monday:
Received a morning text from W saying she still felt ill, D had wet the bed , and W and had had a ‘terrifying & profound dream’. She asked how I was. She then sent a text saying she loved me.

I did respond – asked her to tell me about the dream, told her I was OK… and then I did respond to the ILY by saying “thank you and I love you”

No response on the terrifying dream, but she has been sending me YouTube links to TED talks and interviews by a famous Belgian psychotherapist and counsellor on infidelity and relationships. (Not sure if forum rules would allow me to give her name) I’m unsure how to respond to this. Much of the info in the videos seem in line with MWD’s thinking and writing. I want to respond but don’t know how to approach it.

What's the opinion of others in the forum? I honestly have no idea what her intent is by this? I'd love to think she was reaching some sort of revelation, but I know I can't think that way, it would be foolish to clutch at straws at this stage.

[doodler]

What's the opinion of others in the forum? I honestly have no idea what her intent is by this? I'd love to think she was reaching some sort of revelation, but I know I can't think that way, it would be foolish to clutch at straws at this stage.

Woke_Up,

I have no idea what your wife is thinking, but keep in mind that her perceptions and thoughts about the TED videos may be very different than your perceptions. She's likely still very deep in her own fog and hears what she wants to hear, and most likely it's supportive of her actions and intentions.

In short, I suspect she's attempting to keep you on the hook, while at the same time, she's attempting to justify her own thoughts and actions. I understand what she's selling, but I'm not buying.

As usual, I could be wrong...

[sandi2]

I would ask her what her thoughts were about the videos. If she responds in a positive manner, then (without getting too wordy) you could say something how you would consider seeing some more sent your way. However, I suggest you let her lead in the conversation. At times such as this, LBH'S start talking too much, and the WW will pull away. If she seems closed mouthed, then don't volunteer any of your view points, or get pushy by trying too hard to encourage her to choose a MR help program, or whatever. Just be calm, cool. & collected. She felt you out before she sent them........so wait and see how well she acts throughout the day and night. If you show any excitement over her sending the videos......or hint that it means she's back on board...... she will go cold. So, easy-does-it. Remember the squirrel.

[Woke_Up]

Thanks Doodler & Sandi

I just did a quick text back to her saying that I had managed to watch the first 3 links she sent, and what did she think of them. No response as of yet.

She sent a couple more - they were more focused on desire within M, and what goes wrong, and what needs to be done to maintain desire. I suspect she is dropping hints at my shortcomings, I won't expect that she'll be highlighting hers.

[Woke_Up]

Journaling: TLDR I'm afraid

Friday: received some texts from W, saying she wasn't happy with the results of her beauty treatments and would complain to the salon - I validated, said it was a lot of money and they should get it how you want it. She asked if I would help her write an email, so I told her to give me the key points and I would help with the words.

Read quite a bit of 5 LL on train journey home. While I think my LLs are physical touch and words of affirmation, I believe W’s are Quality Time, acts of service and receiving gifts. I tried to think back to meaningful gifts I had gotten her in the past. I remember early in our, I bought her a very old copy of Wuthering Heights (her favourite book). She loved it. I need to find that sort of caring again, rather than pandering to her ‘wants’.

She also said she had spanked D5 on the bottom. This upsets me as she has always been against hitting children. She told me about it later. D5 had been hitting her, and she had told her that if she kept doing it she would spank her, and D5 being a typical 5 year old, hit her again. SO she put her over her knee. More on this on Saturday’s journal.

On the way home, I asked if she wanted anything picking up, she said probably, but then changed her mind - when I asked if she was sure, she had a go about how I wanted joint custody, so I should stop relying on her to look after the kids. My take away is not to ask her if she's sure.. in fact don't respond to her anywhere near as much as I have been.

I ignored it, and when I got home, said nothing about it, just tried to act as if. Nothing more was said on that subject, she wanted to talk about inheritance tax, as she had seen her father, and it looks as though he and his brother had managed to get the grandparents to change the will and gift money to them as well as the house, so the grandchildren will be getting much less. Her main worry is having something to pass on to her children, from what she says.

Went to our separate rooms at bedtime, still feels strange.

[Vanilla]

Wokeup

Apologies I have been absent and triggered so finding posting in Newcombers a ltitle tough.

There are a couple of things you may want to review. I am practical rather than definitive.

1. Abuse is abuse. It has to stop, it is always wrong. Children shouldn't be in the middle of it. I have assumed that you have reviewed the Abuse thread. It's there as a resource. I will post the link.

2. There is a wonderful writer called Al Turtle who has an essay on Boundaries, it's about forts and soldiers etc. I love the way he writes as it's primarily for teenagers (at least that essay) and for the first time I got it. It is free and easily Googled.

3. You are in the UK, the courts take a very dim view of mothers and fathers who have substance problems. These can affect custody and the one with the physical custody has the greatest sway. There is an excellent ebook by Marilyn Stowe the lawyer available for free or 99p. I have used her site often.

As you are aware in the UK only if there is a police involvement is verbal abuse an issue in D fins, as the criminal is separate from the family court. This can start the non mol train which shows up even if dismissed, take this very seriously indeed. It can mean your contact with your kids is prescribed and you can lose access to your home. So not even a broken finger nail ok?

The tendency is for a spouse to be involving the police thinking it will help fins, it doesn't although it can affect the custody arrangements which affects fins indirectly.

Know where her stash is, if police involvement happens to you (false accusations), then you can say "I believe WW may be under the influence and her stash is in the garden wall behind the third brick". Otherwise always keep cool and never react. Take the blows and however much you would like to, don't restrain or resist. Record if you can, whilst doing so say stop, please stop. And don't smoke with her, if you are ever arrested, ask to have a urine or blood test and hair sample to prove you don't smoke dope. You may wish to have an L on record with these accusations. If you are in Surrey then SurreyDA are excellent especially on the new UK laws post October 2015 on coercive abuse. They run support groups and it isn't only women who suffer from verbal abuse. Other areas have help too so some research needed.

4. In the UK spouses have the right to privacy. As long as we are members of the EU, the EU human rights act applies. I will examine the decided case and post back to you. In some instances breaching this is a criminal rather than a civil offence. The rules are complex but as your WW has said you breached her privacy then you have been warned. It's serious don't do it. Those are my views.

So how you keep your diary notes is important. Seeing and keeping your spouses text messages, emails etc is very frowned on by UK divorce courts. Although you can keep notes about it. So for instance keeping a copy of your wife's will is not good, you may keep notes for instance WW told me she left everything in her will to the children etc. Or WW opened a savings account with ABC bank and set up a DD for xx.

So

abuse resource thread Vanilla and Zelda

V

[Woke_Up]

Thank you, Vanilla. You have no need to apologise, you do a lot of paying back for people on these forums.

Much to think about and research. I have started reading the abuse thread(s). Point taken about privacy and snooping. My W has been clear on this and her boundaries. I just need to be firmer on mine. I will start making more notes of what happens.

[Woke_Up]

Journaling. Saturday. TLDR again

D5 refused to go to ballet. She hasn’t wanted to go for a while now, so sadly I think that it is done for now, although she likes other dance and has other classes in the week.

I went to the builder’s yard to pick up some hinges for the 5 bar wooden gates that were delivered. Went out with D5, paid the garage for fixing my car, took D5 to city. Picked up W’s engagement ring, which was now repaired, took D5 shopping with the last of her birthday money (another Disney Moana doll!!), and took D5 for lunch again. Had a fun time with D5, I like our Saturday lunches together. Got home, gave W her ring back. She put it on initially. Later she had it on a different finger, then back on the ring finger, and then later she took it off entirely. It is still off as far as I am aware.

WW started on about the MBR again and said she was going to take it back, she needed her bed, I had stolen it. I said it was her choice to move out. She had left the MR, therefore she had left the MBR. She tried the guilt tripping, about her ruined pelvis having my child, and that it was the least I could do. She also said she would move my stuff out while I was out. I said that I would move it back in. It got a bit silly, back and forth, but I held my ground and didn’t give in. I said she could rant, but I wasn’t going to listen to it any more. Anyway, the issue has gone away for now to be dealt with another day.

Later, WW had a big session, about talking about S and wanting to make sure kids were OK, that they stay in the house. Her plan - She wants the house put in their name, and doesn’t mind who gets to live there. She even said she would leave as long as the house was in the kid’s names. She said I am just thinking about money for myself. She kept going on about psychopaths, saying her dad was a psychopath, and that he had said exactly the same thing about the house when he and her M divorced, and the judge hadn’t agreed. I was the same, apparently because I had said the same thing. In contrast, her Dad is a gambler and was mentally abusive W’s mother and physically abusive to W.

I refused to agree to any of her suggestions and said that while I wanted what was best for the kids, it had to be sensible and affordable, and if she took the house, she wouldn’t be able to afford it, and if I took the house, and had to work closer to home, it would be a lower wage, and therefore not affordable, and I didn’t want the house to be taken away as that wouldn’t help anyone. She kept asking what my plan was, and I said I didn’t have one. She said it was what I wanted wasn’t it, to get the house – I said no, I didn’t want S. She asked why – I probably screwed up, but I said that because I loved her, and hoped that someday we could get to a place where reconciliation was possible. I said it was her choice to leave the R, not mine – she disagreed pointing to what I had said about not being in R. I said that she had already left it when he crossed the line with OM.

I had to keep asking her not to do this in front of D5 but she said that she never saw me otherwise and we never talked. I had never talked to her anyway. I tried to do a lot of validation when she was pointing out the problems in our R pre- BD, but I said that I was 50% responsible for the issues. She said she thought it was much more me than her. I disagreed and didn’t let her get away with that. She asked for examples and I had to give her some examples of what I felt was wrong from her side. I mentioned the aggressiveness, controlling, insults and belittling, etc. I didn’t want to do this, but was on the spot.

Later, I went out to get stuff for dinner, W asked me to pick her some stuff up, which I did. She asked me to hurry as D5 was having a whinging session. Got home to find she had spanked D5 again. Later that evening or Sunday, not sure) she said she wasn’t going to spank D5 any more, as D5 was laughing about it. I agreed that it wouldn’t work, and that we should try other means so she doesn’t act up for the attention.
I don’t think she can see the issue that she grew up being physically punished and the effect it had on her. Spanking a 5 yr old only teaches them that force acts as a means to control, nothing else. I’m glad W has realised it won’t work quite quickly or we would have had a major issue on our hands.

At dinner, D5 mentioned that Daddy was going to go riding with her. W said what about her, she would like to go. So when I make the booking, should I invite W along? i.e. She is welcome to join us?

After dinner, I got a bath ready for D5 and W, then said I would go out to look for hinges (builders yard had supplied wrong type) and paint for the gates then pick up SS16 while she bathed D5.

SS16 was going to be a little late - Foolishly messaged W to let her know and she had a mini rant about how she thought I had sorted it out and seemed like I was doing it on purpose. That she thought I wanted joint custody (again) but seems like I can’t stand to do the job. I ignored the rant and just said I wouldn’t be long. Got home, no spew.

OK, now it gets weird and I broke all the rules: Later that evening, she came to me in the kitchen, said she felt strange, that it was like she was living in a dream, or groundhog day, and that she needed a hug. She hugged me, so I reciprocated. She talked about her bad back again – I offered for her to sleep in the MBR if she wanted, no strings, but she said the sheets weren’t clean enough for her (which was a good reminder for me, I changed them later). After that, we were pleasant to each other, reasonably touchy feely. She wanted me to make her laugh, so I did. Upstairs, we were still touchy feely, flirty and then got intimate. I initiated. She had been worried about SS16 downstairs hearing, so I said they wouldn’t hear in the MBR. I had thought she was just making excuses, but she got up and went to the MBR, and ML. She stayed a while, we laughed a bit more, but she didn’t stay the night, she went back to her room. It was a pleasant enough time, but I know I am just reaching out physically in the hope of building an emotional connection. Plus my interactions were pursuing...

[Woke_Up]

Journaling, TLDR:

Sunday:
More running about looking for those bloody gate hinges. Spent time with D5. At one point, I found D5 in her room watching W’s phone while W was doing some other stuff outside. D5 started having a tantrum about something, then slamming her door. I told her if she kept slamming the door, I would take the phone away. So I did. D5 had a major meltdown, messed her room up by emptying her drawers and toy boxes everywhere (she does when she is upset. I remember doing similar when I was little) – I just let her get on with it until she was ready to be calm and rejoin. If only I could apply boundaries and consequences in the same way with my WW.

Got some more paint and some food for dinner. Had to crack on with the gates without the right hinges – used some spare wood to make the bottom hinges fit flush, and got the largest of the gates hung, reasonably happy with the result. I've never been much of a DIYer - used to try and have things go wrong, which used to put the fear of trying into me. Losing that fear of trying things now. WW painted the other gates. I will get those hung next weekend.

We had dinner, although W chased me up for working outside – she started dinner off, and then I finished it. Nothing major happened after that, some minor grumpiness from both of us, mostly out of frustration about the time running away so much during the day. W was feeling ill again, coming down with a virus. She & D had a bath, I did reading and story with D.

W texted me from bed to say she was feeling really ill and to wish me good night.

[Gordie]

Woke_Up,

Is D5 acting out because of the situation with you and your W...or has she always been like this?

[Woke_Up]

Gordie

My personal feelings are that it has intensified recently. D5 has always pushed boundaries and is strong willed. However, recently we have been pandering to her, probably because of our current sitch. We decided that we must stop pandering or she would end up completely spoilt and with bad habits. D5 has been reacting to our change in handling her.

However, our R has always been fraught with explosive arguments and much spew that D has unfortunately been witness to. I do worry the effect this has had on her. For whatever reason I have never been able to stop the spew, and too many times I have gone 'screaming banshee' as V puts it, when I reach the end of my tether.

It has never been a healthy R in the way we handle conflict and control. That is the sad truth. If we make it through this, and it is a big if, it will need to be a different R, a new R where we learn together to work on our issues.

[Woke_Up]

More journaling:

Tuesday:

Sent W a text on way home to remind her I would be late, she replied ‘Noooooo xxxx’ so I offered to swap with Thursday and she agreed. W still ill, with headaches and sickness, probably a virus.

Later, she was listening to the Belgian psychotherapist/R counsellor on Youtube and said that we should treat each other as if we don’t know each other as well. I agreed and said something about being more spontaneous and she said No, that's not what she meant - I didn’t understand, she thought I’d watched it.

TBH, it was the hour long one, and there is a lot in there, including the key killers of R’s being contempt, indifference, disrespect, violence. I didn't bring those up

Later W talked about the mild spanking she’d given D and deciding to not do it an more. When I agreed and said tat I didn’t think that it worked, and it just taught children that force is a means of control, W was very unhappy and started arguing with me – that she did it because she thought it was right and she had decided not to do it on her own, she didn’t need me passive aggressively trying to tell her she was wrong in a snake like fashion. I pulled her up on this, and said I wasn’t going to called a snake. She then asked me some more what I thought – so we argued a bit more. She asked me what I thought about being spanked as a child, and I said I didn’t think it worked, and that I still remembered the (admittedly infrequent) occasions it had happened to me, but it made me think my dad was a [censored]. She then said that by saying that, I was saying she was behaving like a [censored]. I disagreed, and said that we couldn’t have a conversation if she asked me my opinion and then told me I couldn’t have one (she actually said that I couldn’t, as she spent all the time with D5 and had to deal with her). I told her I could have an opinion, and while it was right that she could say that I didn’t have the experience that she did, it didn’t mean I couldn’t have an opinion.

Anyway, we got into some back and forth about how I speak. It really annoys her when I try to speak to her calmly – she thinks it comes across as insincere, and not genuine, like I am speaking to a client or colleague. She says she is not a robot or a project to be worked on, and wants to be spoken to like a human. I validated and explained that it was just the way I tried to speak calmly rather than getting angry and losing my temper. W said that I didn’t listen enough (I was trying, but I did interrupt now and again when she was saying things about me and how I thought or what I meant that I fundamentally disagreed with, or she was being downright disrespectful), and that I always came back with a “but you…” statement, and tit for tat arguments. I validated as much as I could, and said that when I was insulted or spoken to like she just had, it caused the shutters to come down and killed the conversation.

I took some learning away, but I’m not sure she did. Anyway, we went to brush our teeth and get ready for bed, and I thought about what she had said. So afterwards, I went back in to her room, and told her that I got why she was upset about how I was saying things, and that what I had wanted to say was “How dare you make unilateral decisions about such important things like spanking without talking to me, we don’t make decisions about parenting on our own, we do it as a couple, and we do it together so we agree on the same methods”. I was a lot more forceful and direct. She listened to what I said, and actually seemed more appreciative of me putting it in those terms, although she still said she was right. Quelle surprise.

I said goodnight, she said ‘you can kiss me” pointing to her cheek, I said, “don’t you mean to ask me for a kiss?” Anyway, we laughed a bit, fairly relaxed, had some light non-sexual touches, and she asked me to massage her painful back again, which I did for a bit.

So, I’m starting to identify better things that are p*ssing my W off when I talk to her, however, I feel she is finding areas that I need to change rather than identifying anywhere she should change. I’ll keep on working on myself, and while paying attention to what she says, I won’t just accept it all at face value without doing some self-reflection and analysis. I suspect WW likes to look for reasons why this is all MY fault rather than accept any responsibility.

[Woke_Up]

Oh, she seems to have taken to wearing her engagement ring again.

And last night, when she came out of the en-suite before going to bed, she hugged and kissed me, out of the blue and unsolicited. Cake eating or confused WW?

My GAL is suffering with new job, WW being ill and needy, and house work at weekends. Need to balance better. Although much of the housework is GAL for me, I just need to ensure I am proactively getting on with it before WW sticks her oar in to set priorities.

[Woke_Up]

If I were in your shoes, the first baby steps I would take that are totally in your control: 1. Stop snooping and 2. End all conversations that involve spewing (walk out of the room or leave the house or say I do not want to talk to you like this, if you must say something).

Getting better on 1, despite a couple of minor relapses.

2. Work in progress, getting more consistent on picking WW up on disrespectful language. Although I still get trapped quite often.

[Vanilla]

No mind reading ok?

Keep on doing as you are, you are doing terrifically well.

Validate the good, set boundaries on the disrespectful language.

V

[WillDo]

Hug is a major step. I got a hug when I stuck to the chaos and got her a present she thought I wouldn't get. For every bad deed you need 4 good deeds. I had a blow last Friday. I am hoping my other deeds will remind her to me. Be happy. Enjoy it and as the guru said "No mind reading"

[Woke_Up]

Ok, I have some journaling to do, but will get to that later... how do I try and build an emotional connection, as per DB coach, if I am not pursuing?

Anyway, new goal - improve cooking skills. This is for me and the kids, not just W, although giving her a break on weekends has been appreciated. I used to quite enjoy it, but stopped as W used to be quite critical, and then with work, and kids, W always does dinner early before I get home.

[Gordie]

Ok, I have some journaling to do, but will get to that later... how do I try and build an emotional connection, as per DB coach, if I am not pursuing?

Woke_up, I think you have the best answers to these questions. I suggest two approaches and choose the one that seems better for you and your situation. 1. What is her LL? If you know her primary/secondary LL and she is open to you providing that to her...do that. If she's not open to that right now... 2. How would you build an emotional connection with a female acquaintance? You wouldn't aggressively pursue them by calling, texting, giving gifts and trying to have intimate conversations everyday, but you'd take advantage of the times when you did bump into each other and try to make it special when you did...such as a sincere hello and it's great to see you and you look really nice today...and holding eye contact...and really listening to her and building trust and small, incremental steps at intimacy...and remember what she said and bringing it up again the next time you saw her...I was thinking about what you said about XYZ...and oh, I thought of you this afternoon when I saw ABC...

[Woke_Up]

Gordie

I thinkI know what her LL is, but she hasn't done the test yet. On the upside, she has said she will read the book. MY thoughts are Acts of Service & Quality Time (certainly based on criticisms - although I think AoS have to be specific things, as general helping out doesn't seem to get much of a positive reaction. She still says she 'does everything and never gets a thank you) - the irony being that W is the one in the house who very rarely says Please or Thank-you. Thank-you's are more common than pleases.

Yes, point 2 - I am trying to do that . Listening, focusing.

I'll be interested to see her take on the 5LL and what the quiz says her primary/secondary LL are.

[Woke_Up]

Bit of journaling - over the last 7 days:

Wednesday: Very little happened to report. Minimal interactions, other than 'demanding' a new car seat for D5 as buckle was broken and she had to cut her free.

Thurs:
She sent me another video link on R counsellor and said to listen until the end – where it mentioned old marriages being dead after infidelity but possible to have new one.

I went training (my GAL), picked up SS16 on way home. In car he gave me weed that W had asked him to get for her from one of his friends. I was furious, told him not to do it in future, let her sort her own mess out . At home had a go at W, told her never to do that again, if she did I would throw it, and it was really unfair to ask her S16 to get her weed, what would happen if he got caught by police? W didn't really say anything. I went to bed left her to it. Selfish? doesn't even come close. She has done it before and I have told her not to.

Friday: DB coaching session at 5 am, and stupid mobile phone kept cutting me off. Coach advised working on building connection, got me to verbalise how W sees me and what her issues are with me. Have to write a letter apologising for my prior failures, and run through it with coach on next session.

That wasn't easy. I did it based on what W says, and when you don't agree with that, it is really difficult. OK, there will be some truth in it, but it's not as black and white as all that.

Texts from W on way home, wanted me to pick some stuff up, asked me to hurry up, said she hated being alone this much. Home - bickering. Said she was lonely being in her own, but that she also didn't like people. Didn't want to do things with people. I validated.

Saturday: Pleasant-ish morning but in the evening had an argument about D5 and bath time and getting her into a routine - W started off being rude and insulting, but then nearly burst into tears, (stress and anxiety?), said she can't handle things being made more difficult. Said she was really struggling. Held her, apologised. Things seemed better after that.

She went upstairs to lie down, said I could lie with her. Chatted, pleasant enough.
Checking her phone, she pulled up Skype out of habit I guess, rather than Twitter which she meant, displaying a conv with OM. I said that's my cue to leave. She said no, held me. Said she didn’t mean to do it. I felt pretty cold and angry, hurt. She went for a smoke and I talked to her, but afterwards, back in her room, just said good night. She asked wasn't she even going to get a kiss, and I said it's hard to be affectionate after that. She said she didn't mean to do it, and I said it's just a reminder that it's always there. She said not for much longer - I said I can't count the number of times I've heard that since September. Left her room, closed the door, went to bed.

I don't like this softly softly approach even when I am no good at the tough love approach. It tears me in two.

Not much to report since then. Some minor bickering on Sunday, but W appreciated me cooking dinner for everyone. I'm going to aim to do this every weekend - work on my cooking skills and give W a break from cooking. Minimal interaction while I have been at work, zero messages from her on Tuesday, and I sent none until after work to remind her I would be late, and how was her day. No reply. She has been quite withdrawn since the weekend.

So both of us are doing the NC thing. I try not to mind read, but it often feels like when I am upset with her for a reason & pull away from her, she pulls away from me in reaction. I am working on not pursuing. I have been a bit, particularly by overstaying in her room to talk to her before we say good night. I will stop that and monitor for any reactions.

I also need to stop worrying. I've recently found myself standing outside he door before I go to bed, like I used to do after BD, wondering what she is up to. Pointless. I'm better than that. I'm stronger than that.

[Woke_Up]

OK, that was some long journaling.

Key bits for me:

WW saying she feels alone, stuck at home in the day. But between a rock & a hard place as she doesn't feel like meeting people and doing things.

WW nearly crying on Saturday after the argument, saying that my actions always made things harder for her. WW NEVER cries. I have seen it once, when she was pregnant. She suffers from anxiety and depression also, which I have mentioned earlier in my sitch, and her anxiety has been worse recently - breathing and heart pounding.

My GAL has improved, and on Thursday and Tuesday we were doing some BJJ work Brazilian Jujitsu) - I've never done any grappling work before, so this was really good for me. Left me with some good aches. There's a couple of young ladies who were training there, and while you gentlemen may think it sounds erotic to be straddled by a lady in her early 20's, when they're trying to stab you with a knife (even a plastic training knife), there's precious little erotic about it at all. Those girls take no prisoners

[doodler]

There's a couple of young ladies who were training there, and while you gentlemen may think it sounds erotic to be straddled by a lady in her early 20's, when they're trying to stab you with a knife (even a plastic training knife), there's precious little erotic about it at all. Those girls take no prisoners

Woke_Up,

That sounds like heaven.

[Woke_Up]

Woke_Up,

That sounds like heaven.

HaHa, yes, they have no issues with invading personal space I'm sure some of the moves would be more at home in the Karma Sutra! I just wish I had more time to train - I'm giving it one night a week, was hoping to get a 2nd session in on Saturday mornings, but so far that has evaded me. If I add another weeknight, that's another night I miss putting D5 to bed.

Oh, and due to my online nosing of Tacoma World (Jeep74 keeps mentioning it), I now know we share the same first name. Good man.

[Woke_Up]

So, I've been doing some reading. I read the 5LL, but need to do the quiz, & plan to do that tonight.

I also started reading the 7 Principles by Gottman, recommended by DB Coach - have just read the first couple of chapters, about what causes things to go wrong. That was depressing. Those 4 horsemen have been rife within our R for so long. Plus all of the signs. Jesus.

Flooding was a new concept to me, and yes, I can see how I suffer from that. My amygdala kicks into overdrive almost as soon as we start arguing about things, horrendously so.

Anyway, I'm now about to start the chapter on the 1st principle, so maybe that will cheer me up that things aren't doomed quite yet.

[Woke_Up]

OK, so 1st principle is going to be difficult. How can you talk and do your love maps when you're barely speaking to each other, and definitely not about R?

Monitoring: Came home, W was up in her room with D5. D5 was ready for bed, watching something on her tablet, while W finished doing D5's plait. Spoke briefly, put the clothes back on D5's new doll. Then said come on, time for bed. Took the doll, put it in D5's room, and then walked to my room to put my jacket down.

Could hear W was saying something, then she started giving it the "Hellllooooooo" in a sarcastic tone - you know, bit like the guy from Back to the Future "Hellooo, McFly". Anyway, I walked back in, and told W that using that tone was rude. She said I was being rude by what I was doing, what was I doing? I told her I was putting D5's doll in her room and putting my jacket down, and D5 had heard me (she just didn't follow). I then took D5 to her room. I'm not letting rudeness slide these days. W made a comment about she'd done her duty and it was someone else's turn now.

Later, after D5 was asleep, spent some time talking to her (mostly about psychopaths, she has a new book she is reading on the topic - she is fascinated about it and spending a lot of time on it. She believes her father is a psychopath). She asked if I thought she was a psychopath, because there is a hereditary component to it. I said no, she wasn't, because I knew she had too many emotions and feelings, especially for her children, and that was the same reason I knew I wasn't, even though she had said I was.

W then said she didn't think I was a psycho - I said I know you don't *think* I am one, you just *said* I was one. We both smiled and laughed about that.

Later, she wanted me to keep her company while she smoked in the utility room. We talked some more, nothing serious. Then, at one point she reached out with her legs and put her foot on me in a friendly way. Asked 'Do you love this psychopath?' - I said I did love her, probably the wrong thing to say, given the sitch, but I'm not very good at being stand offish.

Anyway, went to bed separately again. She gave me a hug when she came out of the en-suite. I went to her room to say goodnight, standing near the doorway. Was waiting to see if she would say or do anything further but she didn't, just smiled and said goodnight.

Later, W sent me a picture msg with a pic of D5 and W's old cat that died a couple of years ago. She had been talking about the cat earlier.

So, minor reactions, but I am still too eager to see if she is pursuing me in any way and that ends up with me acting pursuing. Doh! However, will keep maintaining my distance, and get better at these 'good night' moments.

After reading some of Vanilla's advice elsewhere I am now researching and listening to mindfulness and self-help on youTube - currently focusing on boundaries and self-confidence.

[Woke_Up]

I'm on a down swing at the minute. Had ups and downs since Friday - W was nice, then spewed and raged about MBR, I grabbed her phone, not good. She texted abuse so I blocked her til the morning.

Weekend went OK, mostly pleasant, until she went to take a photo of D5 while she was sleeping, and had Skype on it when she opened her phone. I got mad.

Then have been eaten away at since then, really want to make sure the EAP (OM) has a god awful 30th birthday tomorrow. So got home angry and told W that's what I was going to do, that I knew it would make her angry, and I didn't care any more.

I'd had enough. I also told her she should leave. She said she would, so I said she could go to her mother's and get up at 5:30 every day to come and look after D5 when I leave for work, see how she likes those early starts...

None of this will happen, she won't leave, it's not practical. I'm just not sure how much more I can take. Don't think my DB coach will be pleased... I was meant to be writing and giving her the apology letter.

I just think it would be easier if I didn't have to see her every day, but that's just my anger talking.

Deep breath. Start again.

[Gordie]

You had a bad day, don't beat yourself up. Forgive yourself. Start again tomorrow. You need space. Create it for yourself by taking your eyes off your wife. Pay attention to yourself and your feelings. Treat her like a cranky, house guest. Don't let her ups and downs affect you emotionally. Be strong and steady.

[Dawgs]

There's a couple of young ladies who were training there, and while you gentlemen may think it sounds erotic to be straddled by a lady in her early 20's, when they're trying to stab you with a knife (even a plastic training knife), there's precious little erotic about it at all. Those girls take no prisoners smile

Very, very much like my Harley Quinn... Hoo boy. As doodler says, that is heaven...

[Dawgs]

was meant to be writing and giving her the apology letter

Why?

[Dawgs]

Oh, and due to my online nosing of Tacoma World (Jeep74 keeps mentioning it),

Join us, my friend. We have quite the collection of misfits.

[Woke_Up]

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