A WW? (7) - DivorceBusting.com

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A WW? (6)

Quick rundown of my situation:
- M11, T13 w/ a D9
- BD on 5/31/16
- Find out about EA with OM on 6/22/16. Had been ongoing since 5/13/16
- Confront W on 6/30/16 about her plans to visit OM over 4th of July weekend
- W goes anyway on 7/3/16 for PA and I leave MBR that night
- W comes back and we have talk on 7/7 about Ls
- W retains L early August
- I have met with 2 Ls so far and another in 2 days
- "Family" beach trip for a week Aug 6, multiple MR talks
- W leaves for an anniversary party for friends. Turns out it's for another PA with OM at the same lake
- confront W on it and she lies, lies, lies. I move back into Mbr
- W begins doing and saying odd things after blowup. Mentions possibility of cancer and writes a long letter blaming me for all our issues
- W and I sit down and chat custody of D. A lot of spew and W wants to push ahead with Ls
- 2 days later W offers to go to see MC, retracts offer, then re-offers. At the same time, W begins a campaign to get me to leave the house, leveraging my R w/ my D to drive it
- I've retained an L and am willing to do MC with W, but am not expecting much to come from it
- W uses MC session to re-iterate she does not want to reconcile. W pushes me to continue MC, but I refuse. I tell her we need a co-parenting counselor, not a MC.
- W begins in earnest to get financial details for her S agreement from me. I provide, but reiterate that I do not believe divorce is the answer to our problems.
- My Ls begin work on a S agreement, not bc I want to S but bc I want to have my view on paper when W provides me her agreement.
- I find a co-parenting counselor through my L, and I visit individually with her. W delays setting up her individual appointment.
- W initiates a couple R conversations in which I reiterate that divorce is not the answer to our problems and I am unwilling to accept anything less than 50/50 custody of my D. I'm willing to take full custody, but I'll work with her around 50/50 if that's what she wants.
- Ws Ls deliver S agreement to my Ls. One day later W has a confrontational conversation with me in which she asks me to cancel the co-parenting session and re-initiate MC.
- No MC yet. Still debating finding a different MC and whether W would be constructive in it at this point or if she's merely looking for validation of her decisioning.
- Living in limbo right now. D9 in a better place than at the start of this thing. Trying to figure out what I want.

I've made substantial progress in moving away from allowing W to control my emotions and actions. I see her actions for what they are, but continue to deal with her anxiety and anger issues. Picking my battles, but not allowing her to run me over anymore.

For me though, with the help of a multitude of folks on here, I'm being extremely successful at fortifying my relationship with D9 to be stronger. I'm also making strides at re-tooling myself to be more like the man I was pre M. Standing up for myself and D in the face of some controlling behavior from W and refusing to be a doormat.

Working on GAL and some 180s but all for the sake of D and me. W can hop off her crazy train and join us, but she has a ton of work to do on herself before I would allow her back in. I'm unwilling to accept things as they were in the past anymore. The only path forward for W and I involves a lot of work and I'm not convinced she'll ever come to that realization. She needs to address her anxiety issues just as I've addressed my short-comings in the M.

In an awesome place with my D9. She is my peace and I find so much excitement watching her grow and blossom into an amazing person. I'm finding joy in being a father that I'd never tapped into before and I'm loving every minute of it!

LT, just a random thought and observation.
As I read other threads, including my own, I've noticed our Wives or Husbands make an appearance, as in, we catch a glimpse of the kind caring spouse they were, (yes they're crazy) but nonetheless they make an appearance. With you, I've noticed your W hasn't. Not sure it means anything, just an observation. I guess I cant picture your W as a W or a kind person.

When is she moving? If she's adamant about 90/10 custody wouldn't she have to move away for that to "happen"?

You are extremely patient and strong for still continuing to be there. You've done a great job!

Pulling over from previous thread...

Originally Posted By: ForGump

She can insist but her just saying so won't make it that way. Does she really have grounds to get 90%? Unless you have documented history of violence or substance abuse, I would think 50% is realistic.

I agree, but still worries me that she'd take this thing to a judge and we are then at the whims of that judge. My Ls believe that 50/50 is more likely as well, but W appears to be willing to do anything not to reach that split. No history of violence or substance abuse on my part. It's just the uncertainty of putting our lives in the hands of a stranger that worries me.

To be honest, this trip that D and I are taking for 6 days in the spring will be telling I think. W is not going (anxiety around flying) and I'm unsure how she will handle the separation from our D. She was on edge when D and I went to the waterpark in August for a single evening. I'm not sure what/how she'll react when we are gone for 6 days.

Originally Posted By: PacLove

lt - I struggled with this too and came to the same conclusion back in December, but try not to look at the last 3 years, you've been together for 13 years - have you had happiness at all?

I've recently started spending more time with my W after a turning point and I can honestly say I'm really enjoying the connection and time we have together. Am I scared about going back? absolutely - but I think we both are and are both willing to work towards a better, happier M with open comms.

I realise this may not help you detach much, which I do see as an important step in the process. But helping you recognize what worked and what didn't in your M will set you up for future success whatever that might be.

Pac, I remember happy times w/ my W, but of course if you ask her we've never been happy as a M couple (11yrs). I have some very happy memories with her, even over the past 3 yrs. That's the happiness I'd like to get back to, but it was of course interspersed w/ issues driven by her anxiety and some of my shortcomings. Working on my issues, but she is not on hers, so unsure how we get back to that.

I've been following your sitch from afar, but am extremely encouraged for you around the want of your W to spend more time w/ you. I think you are right to have angst around going back into the situation, but it seems normal. how could you not feel that way. That said, if she's willing to work on it as well then I think you are doing the right thing!

I do need to give some thought to what worked in the M. My focus has been so much on what didn't work, as well as protecting myself and my D from my Ws anxiety, that I've lost sight of the happier stuff that we used to share. Could probably use more balance there and definitely appreciate you tossing that out. Unsure she's open to them right now, but if she ever shows interest again it'd be good to be ready to react and pivot to the happier stuff. Not holding out hope, but we will see.

Originally Posted By: cheesyt

Cheesyt, I've noticed the same thing. I've questioned whether it's bc we're in in house S and she feels trapped, so she acts like a sulking teenager not getting her way. Not sure, but the only positives I've seen in W are when she seems to accidentally drop her guard when W, D, and I are together at times. Infrequent, but it does give me a glimpse of how my W was.

On the acts of kindness, she doesn't really do anything to reach out. I find myself wondering if I was choking on something if she'd pretend not to know the Heimlich. She will do stuff if I ask her to, but she never offers anything. With that said, I have become extremely self sufficient and it's helped me expand my confidence. I'm working 50 hours a week, spending tons of time w/ my D, doing my own laundry, doing my own cooking, doing my own grocery shopping, and continuing with all my responsibilities around the yard and house. W used to do all of the aforementioned except for the yard and house stuff. Of course me taking that over is cake eating for W, but it's helped me to detach from her to some degree while we share the same house.

I do wonder though if becoming more independent on that stuff is counterproductive. It removes some of the "team" aspect of being M. Still unsure on this, but continuing down this path barring an offer from her to help with some of that burden. Not expecting it to come.

W would need to leave the home to split custody. I'd prepped myself for an outcome where she left the home or we sold it in November, as she was pushing hard on drafting a S agreement. She did a 180 though and appears willing to "stick it out" in our M. For what purpose, I'm unsure. could be that I'm unwilling to do less than 50/50 w/ D, or maybe W realized how difficult it is to get a job right now. whatever it is, she has not shared. She just continues to choose to be in this poor/unconstructive mood day after day. Very tiring for me and I'd imagine it's got to be very tiring for her as well.

Appreciate the words of encouragement Cheesyt! It's a grind and I'm not sure how it'll end, but I'm giving it my all.

LT, have you tried DB coaches? Maybe worth a try, if going at it w/ just forum support isn't working for you.

Yeah, I've done a handful of sessions with a DB coach and have found it helpful. She's advocated for me to find a new MC and take W there. It's been since end of November that I talked to the DB coach (who is awesome) and I'd probably be well served to do another soon. I guess I'm just frustrated and tired from the lack of any positive response from W, even when I've put myself out there for her. I know I need to rebuild the friendship but there's no opening for it. Glad you mentioned this bc I'll make an appointment tomorrow.

Some quick journaling. Took off from work yesterday at noon to go to a doctors appointment for D. Met her and W there. 3 of us were cramped in a small room waiting for the doctor for an hour. D was hanging on W the first 5 minutes or so and we were all talking. D started to hang out and joke around with me and W suddenly started up with the "would you two stop shouting" and "how about we all don't talk for 5 minutes" types of comments. D and I started talking quieter but I'm not ok with her telling us when we can and can't speak. I did not address it with her there so maybe it came off as passive aggressive but it's such a silly thing for her to say. Had a great time with D regardless.

W also said some wierd stuff. D was being silly and joking about Ws boobs. (We are pretty open about stuff). W said something to the effect of "yeah, I've got really nice boobs, it's a shame they're going to waste". Unsure how to take that. Also, we were watching a show later that day and somehow the topic of sex came up. We have had that talk with D before so she's familiar. D asked W "have you and daddy had sex" to which W responded yep, we have you don't we. Then D asked "is daddy good at sex"? W responded with I don't know but D kept asking and W just played it off. I was surprised she didn't use the opportunity to try to hurt me with a negative response there. Sad that I'm at the point that I chalk that up as a positive.

Decided to take the rest of the day off from work and told W and D I'd see them at home (drove seperately). W seemed physically angry about this. W went to the store and D and I hung out until dinner. Did dinner as a family and then we all played with the inflatable beach ball in the house until bed. Had a fun time laughing with everyone.

Not a lot outside of that. Just grinding through this thing. I did meet with L today around the new house we are talking about moving to, as well as setting up a budget, and a couple other random things. Good feedback from her and very helpful. No downside to moving right now. I did ask the L, as she sees this stuff every day and I'm assuming my situation is not different, if this thing will come to a head at some point. She said yes and it's usually because one person gets sick of it. It's what I'd thought so I'll continue steeling myself for it and also working on improving my R with my D. I need to warm up to my W some more I think but without her being open to it it's probably just wasted effort.

Heading to bed. Gym in the morning. Looking forward to the weekend with my D!

LT, your D must be gone to school 8am-2pm or so. How does your W spend that time?

Your recap says PA w/ OM on 7/3/16. Are you 100% certain about that? Did she admit to it? Do you have incontrovertible proof, or it is more of a gut feeling?

Assuming you are certain about the PA ... how do you feel about that? Are you torn up, or did you get over it?

My W used to spend that time cleaning the house, at Ds school volunteering, shopping for the family, etc. now she spends at least 2 hrs per day exercising, doesn't clean as often, but still does shopping for her and D. I do all the shopping and laundry for myself now. Besides those things I've no clue what she's doing.

So, W went to the lake to see the OM on 7/3. She says there were like 15 college friends there and nothing happened. The messages I saw with OM leading up to it would say otherwise. But I'm 100% sure her visit to the lake in early Aug led to a PA, even if by the tiniest chance her 7/3 trip did not. All evidence, and her comments in MC and our Aug argument shut the book on that one.

I'm in a better place with how I handle my emotions and reactions to thoughts around the PA. I won't lie that the images haunt my brain at times. It used to be that I couldn't think of anything else. Now they are less frequent and are very fleeting when they do pop in there. Still tough but I've gotten enough self awareness and control that I can let them go. Guessing they'll continue to fade as time progresses.

That said, I don't think I could ever fully get over it. It's such a massive violation of my trust and also of me as a person. Maybe it's like an open wound, where over time it heals but there is still a small scar that reminds you of it. It won't hurt anymore, but it will always be burned onto your soul. One of the large issues I have right now is that even if we, by some long shot, R would I ever be able to fully trust her again. I'll cross that hurdle when I get there.

I do feel stronger as a person because of this. I know I've grown a lot. My R with my D is the other positive outcome of all this. So this isn't all negative. No matter what the outcome with W I have so many positive takeaways from my sitch that I know the future is a bright place. It's those thingns that keep me pushing forward and have helped me through the darker side of the mistrust and PA piece of this.

By planning a week away in the spring with just D and I I've given my W a prime opportunity to see OM. I decided a while ago that worry would not sway my decision so I booked the trip. I refuse to live in fear that she will resume the PA. However I'm unsure how long I can live with someone who is actively involved with another person. So if she chooses to use that time we are gone to see OM then I'll have some decisions to make. To your point about not having your head in the sand, I'm more than willing to face the reality of the situation and face it head on. Hence the L visit yesterday to touch base and run through some scenarios and questions. W is fully free to make her choices but I will fight tooth and nail for at least 50/50 of my Ds time if W goes down that path. I can't control her but I also won't allow her to control D and I.

Sorry for the long winded response. The PA aspect has been difficult and I've put a lot of thought into it. W is free to choose her path but I'm unwilling to let her choose mine and Ds for us. At some point this comes to a head and I'll hopefully be ready for that.

Figured I'd split my post today into two pieces. Some quick journaling.

Birthday today. Woke up early and exercises with my dad. Doing that once a week still, ever since he retired in July. Went to work and my boss had brought in breakfast for my team for my birthday. My guys brought in lunch for it too and also had a cake made. All a surprise and it was amazing how great the thought and energy from all of them made me feel. One of my better days since all this started!

Came home not expecting much from my W. Walked in the door and said hi to W and she ignored it, but I saw that W and D decorated the kitchen with banners and gifts and a cake. W bought the cake and D decorated it. Having no expectations I was peasantry surprised. I made my dinner and we all ate together on the couch. At one point I was rubbing my leg bc it itched and W asked me to stop rubbing it. Strange.

After dinner we lounged around for a bit on the couch. I snuggled with D in proximity to W that normally would have seen her get up and move or recoil away from me. She didn't move a muscle. As D moved around I found my arm touching Ws foot and W did not move it. Again, that'd normally get a recoil. Not taking anything away from it other than it's something different. Just observing.

W went upstairs so D and I could build a pillow fort with the couch cushions and D and I played in it for an hour or so. Joked and laughed with W and D for about 30 minutes after that before bed. Felt more normal tonight than it has in a while but who knows. Some strange behavior from W today.

A great day for me though. All the stuff my coworkers did for me today really helped me seemtheres a large group of people who think I'm an ok guy. The small party that W put together was a welcome surprise as well. Going to bed happier ham I've been in a while. I know this doesn't change my situation with W but it has helped my mood.

LT, you're one hell of a guy. Happy birthday. I wish you a healthy, loving relationship in the future, regardless of who that might be.

I really appreciate everything you wrote about the PA and dealing with it. As I wrote in Gordie's thread, we each bring out own biases when reading about other people's situations. I'm actually not particularly quick nor eager to conclude that a spouse is having a PA. Anyway, I admire the way you've reflected on all of it, dealt with the pain, and are moving on.

It sounds like your W is a bit lost. Or a lot lost. If she's spending her time exercising and shopping ... that still leaves a lot of time to fritter away. I'm not saying I have some answer. I just think that her not having some direction in life, a sense of control, a sense of power and confidence ... I think it greatly adds to her dissatisfaction with your marriage.

Thanks FG! i appreciate you my friend and the kind words are exactly what I needed. I really found some solace by gaining a better understanding of compassion, both for my W and myself. AndrewP awhile ago really helped me see the compassion part in regards to my W. That helped immensely to get past the anger of the PA.

On my W being lost, i hadn't really thought down that path yet FG. That's interesting and could very well be what's driving her anxiety right now. It'd also explain why she's so intertwined with my D. Ive asked her to take a look at going back to work. Maybe if she does that she can start to figure out which way is north on her compass. Maybe not. We will see. My IC continues to think W was using PA as a way to force the dissolution of the M in her mind. He thinks that's why she's stopped levering it (I think) after I showed her I would fight it. The lost part could very well be where she is now. Thanks FG, going to give that one more thought.

One other thing I've been thinking of today. W has said multiple times that I need to discuss things with her. She says that she knows she has a poor attitude and is difficult to talk to. But she says I still need to talk to her. I find myself today wondering if she's offering me a solution to breaking her silence. I wonder if that's the answer. Standing in front of her and forcing dialogue from her. Breaking the cycle of avoidance forcefully for both of us. Knowing that she will fight and ignore and be mean but still standing my ground and forcing the dialogue. I wonder if consistency there would give her comfort in some wierd way. Show her that things are different and I won't give up. Not sure, but that's been bouncing in my brain today.

Quick journaling then bed. Up early and hung out with D from 7-930. Breakfast then D and I played until 1230. Went for a run then played with D and her friend for a bit. Left them with W and I went to the gym. Been having shoulder issues with the working out so I met with a personal trainer today to tweak my routine. Learned a bunch and am feeling good about it. Came home and hung out with D until another friend came over for a sleepover. Went and got them pizza. Played with hem for a bit bt spent a few hours finalizing travel details for Ds and my trip in the spring.

Some friends talked me into doing a Tough Mudder 10 miler in June. Going to start training for that on Monday. It'll be good to have a goal to work towards. Excited about that. W pretty much ignored me all day. Not out of the norm. Didn't keep me from speaking to her and being pleasant. Did find out that W didn't go to the women's march bc she was tired of the bickering amongst her friends over the hotel accomodations. D told me that today.

Need to plug into some other people's situations here. It's interesting to see a whole new cycle of folks around as our friends from the summer become less frequent visitors. There's solace in being able to help others as they go through what we suffered 6 months ago. Need to do a better job of helping where I can. Feel like I'm slacking in that respect. Thank you all for your help over the past six months!

LT...I have also agreed to doing a Tough Mudder. Mine is in Dallas in October I think. What training plan are you following. I had been running and lifting regular up until November...when she moved out. I am slowly getting back into it.

Where is your Mudder?

Hey SBJ, that's awesome man. Seems like a good event. Mine is in Virginia. Saw the training plans they have online and I'm debating if I want to do one of those or come up with my own. I've been running and lifting pretty consistently since BD but it seems like this'll require something a bit more focused. I do have some friends who've done it before so I'll probably bug them on Monday. Will let you know what they say.

Regardless, should be a painful few months. Looking forward to it!

Quick journaling. No gym today. Bleh. Spent the morning with D and W being lazy and then I took D to do laser tag for the first time. Had a blast! She is a hell of a shot, unsure where she got that from! After that I took her to the pet store so we could see the animals, which she loves to do. W had planned to get D a cat (IC thinks as a replacement for me) when we were working through the S docs. Now we are all planning to get a cat in the summer when D starts to wean off some of her allergy stuff. Not a cat person, but D loves animals and it will be good for her.

Got home and W got mad bc she believes I told D she could get an allergy test in May that'd help determine if we can get a cat. Says I wasn't listening at the doctor on Wednesday and hen W stormed off.

What I told D was that with the meds starting to be paired back when school ended in May, the doc sounded like we could do the allergy test shortly thereafter. Of course W stormed off before I could respond and truthfully I don't know that I owe her that explanation anyway.

Did a pillow fort with my D after dinner and we played scientist and Pokemon, a favorite in our household. A game D and I made up that we do every time there's a pillow fort involved. W always goes upstairs bc she can't stand the mess. After that I did Ds meds For the evening.

We have been talking about selling our house and buying another that's in the middle school district that most of Ds friends will be attending. W asked that we give Ds best friends mom who is a realtor a chance to sell the house. No issues with that. I know W is going to lunch with her this week. So I ask W if she could talk to her about setting up a meeting to talk about selling and buying a house. W says "what do you think this lunch is for" in a resentful huff. I pause and tell W that id like to be involved in the discussion around it. W then says "I'm not going to involve you in a lunch with my friend (not really friends) where we are not even going to talk about it". i was slightly taken aback as that's not what she said, but I told her I'd like to have a sit down meeting with all of us at some point. W said "duh!" And left it at that. Very combative and very unnecessary. Unsure what her deal is now.

Heading to bed now but had a good weekend with D. Tired today and I know I wasn't 100% here but I'll get some sleep and be ready for tomorrow afternoon with D. I stay up as late as the girls do during their sleepover in case they need something. Getting too old. Gym tomorrow morning.

We've got to set up a DB Tuff Mudder training group. I'm dying to do it. I was hoping to do it as a team but I could not find anyone to join with me. You guys have given me inspiration to try again. The Toronto area Tuff Mudder is in the fall. Now is as good a time as any to start recruiting.

Sounds like another good weekend with D!!

I always wanted to try the Laser light tag but never have....what did you think of the Superbowl teams? I'm rooting for Atlanta...someone different!!! :-)

You have the patience of an angel with your W.... :-)

Just curious doesn't your D like dogs? I used to be a cat person but once I got a dog it totally switched me...now I have 3...hahah

Have a great day!

Quote:

I'd be down for that. There is one coming up down here in south GA soon. I may do that one. Did the big bridge run here in DEC.

where's the sign up sheet for the DB tough mudder?

Originally Posted By: ForGump

It sounds like your W is a bit lost. Or a lot lost. If she's spending her time exercising and shopping ... that still leaves a lot of time to fritter away. I'm not saying I have some answer. I just think that her not having some direction in life, a sense of control, a sense of power and confidence ... I think it greatly adds to her dissatisfaction with your marriage.

LT,

I agree with ForGump on this one. I may be projecting, but I think a lot of the SAHMs get into this slump/depression/MLC. You say your W's life revolves around your D. Your D is 9, so is becoming more independent of your W and once she hits puberty, she may want nothing to do with your W. So, if that has started to happen, or your W anticipates that happening, she needs to find herself a new identity. You are working for much of the day and she's decided she's not happy with you/your M. Does she know what she wants out of the next 5, 10, 20, 50 years of her life?

I do think it is a positive sign that your W wants you guys to talk to each other more. If it's uncomfortable or awkward right now, maybe you can develop a structure for how you talk to one another.

For example, we are going to talk to each other one-on-one without distractions (D, TV, phone) for 15 minutes a day at 9pm time. H will talk for 5 minutes without interruption and W will listen. Then H will ask W questions for 2 minutes. W will then take her turn. At the end, take one minute to recap the discussion. If you want, you can add a hug/kiss at the beginning and end. Each day, alternate who goes first.

I know this sounds overly structured, but it sometimes helps when communication has broken down.

Typo:

For example, we are going to talk to each other one-on-one without distractions (D, TV, phone) for 15 minutes a day at 9pm time. H will talk for 5 minutes without interruption and W will listen. Then W will ask H clarifying questions for 2 minutes. W will then take her turn. At the end, take one minute to recap the discussion. If you want, you can add a hug/kiss at the beginning and end. Each day, alternate who goes first.

LT-- I hate to say this, and I know I only have a partial picture through the Internet forum, but I believe the dominant part of your situation is your W's mental health. I don't see your marriage getting better until/unless she gets to a better state of mental health. Put another way, even if you were to magically subtract out your marriage and a child from your wife's life, I think she'd still be full of anxiety and confusion, and discontent. Would you agree?

Bigybiz, jeep, and cheesyt it'd be awesome to have a DB tough mudder team. If we can help each other through this stuff, I've no doubt we can conquer some silly obstacles!

Hawk, we had a blast at laser tag. D and I had each other's backs and it turns out she's like a little ninja! I'm also rooting for the falcons. Tough to pull for the pats with everything that's gone on there. Would rather it be my skins though!!

Yeah, we are dog people but Ds allergies to dogs are enough to give us pause. D has a small cat allergy but it's not nearly as bad as the dog one. She's been dying for a pet to play with so we are going the cat route. I know it'll make her happy and she's pretty much counting down the days until the summer! That's awesome that you've got 3 dogs though. That's a lot of energy to burn off! Always awesome to see you around here hawk!!

Gordie, I agree with you that my W seems to be trying to find an identity. Whether it's purposeful or she's just kind of stumbling through it, I don't know. She hasn't shared with me where she sees herself in the coming years, other than telling me in October that she would not be married to me come her 40th bday (this spring). I like the idea of setting up a structured interaction with her. She's not pleasant to converse with in our current situation.

FG, yeah, I also believe my Ws anxiety is a massive barrier to fixing things. Subtracting out M and child, I think she'd be able to isolate herself enough from outside influences to maintain the control she needs in her life. That said, I think she'd have insecurity and would experience the anxiety and discontent in fits and spurts. So to some degree I agree with you. I just don't think it'd be as pronounced as it is now bc she could hide away from things.

IC and I spent most of this session discussing where W may be with regards to her mental state. I mentioned to IC what W said about "you know you need to talk to me. I know that it's not pleasant to talk to me and I'm angry, but you need to talk to me". IC thought that was a substantial event with W. He took that, along with Ws comments about her "boobs going to waste" and W not attacking me when D asked "is daddy good at sex" as W trying to tell me that she needs me to challenge her and show her strength. Seems like a roundabout, weird way to do it but IC thought it said a lot.

So he thinks I should challenge my W in a caring way. I'd been kicking around the idea of giving W a timeline for how long we try to make this work. IC thinks I shouldn't do that. He offered that I have a conversation with W where I tell her what I'm thinking but don't give her a deadline. So I'm thinking about telling her, as we talk about selling the house and buying another, that I want to discuss our future. Tell her that I can see that she's unhappy. That I am also not content with how things are right now. That I care for her and I won't tolerate us living unhappy lives. That I promised W I was unwilling go back to a M the same way that it was before. Pretty much all stuff I'm currently thinking and probably needs to be said anyways.

It has the potential to send W spewing and give her an out, but I think an approach like that may be the only way to challenge her, while at the same time providing her with some semblance of safety from her anxiety. To your point earlier FG, I think this is the only way I can attempt to aid her in getting back to a more solid mental state. I need to keep the consistency of action and voice, but somehow add in the challenge and safety aspects. Sometimes this feels like juggling chainsaws....

Anyway, thanks all for the support and kind words. Looking forward to the weekend!

Don't accuse of anything or pressure her on timing. Something like: "I don't like how things are now, I know things can be better, but I have to decide what I am going to do about my future soon, maybe _______ weeks/months". This puts you in control of you, and not you controlling her.

LT-- remind me ... you two have done MC before, and it didn't help. Right?

What if ... you ...

a) openly acknowledge to your W that you understand she wants out of the marriage;
b) but for the sake of moving forward from here, you'd like to understand her grievances toward you clearly;
b) and you guarantee that you won't say anything to try to change her mind about the marriage;

... then might she go with you to a therapist and talk about what's going on with her insider her head? Not to a marriage counselor, more someone who can help your W sort out her thoughts and feelings. You would basically just keep your mouth shut and listen the whole time.

I've fantasized about asking my W to do the above. I don't think she would go for it, because she distrusts therapists (and me as well), and believes she doesn't really need them.

I want to be on the tough muddier team! Count me in. I'm better at tough mudders than DBing.

My W has refused MC because she says there is nothing to save. At one point, she said she would only consider conscious uncoupling counseling. Has anyone done that?

Originally Posted By: Gordie

she says there is nothing to save.

What? But she says she still loves you and has sex with you and relies on you financially... Sounds to me like plenty to save....

I agree with your councilor. Not sure why but I continue to have strong gut reactions to your sitch

1. As Sandi says, a wife can't love a H she walks all over and does not respect. I really have to wonder if "you have to talk to me" is not more like you have to stand up to and challenge her. You have to keep her inbounds. Some women, especially strong ones want a H who stops them from getting away with [censored].

2. If any sitch calls for the "act as if" strategy, it's yours! You have to stop reacting to her and just act as if. When she tries to put you down you have to almost brush it off like, yeah, yeah. You really still love me. Don't say this, mind you, just act as if she does. Try it and see.

3. I too see good movement in your sitch. I interpret "I'll just live this way for D" really as she wants to try but is not about to or is too afraid to say that to you. I also see the sex related items as positive. She needs you to be the man and wear the pants. She's been doing it because you have not!

Listen to this C. I think he's on the right track. Try these things out. If they work, keep doing them. If not, try something else. As long as she is not in either EA or PA you still are in the game!

Originally Posted By: ForGump

Originally Posted By: Gordie

she says there is nothing to save.

What? But she says she still loves you and has sex with you and relies on you financially... Sounds to me like plenty to save....

I'd second that. I suspect it is the WW's world view being all out of kilter, which seems a common theme. Believe nothing of what they say

where are you LT?!

Hope you're gone, LT, because you're just keeping yourself busy and active, and your head just needs a break from all this D talk.

Thanks for checking up on me FG and cheesyt. To tell you the truth I feel exhausted and frustrated right now. I've been trying to combat that with gym time but it means I need to wake up at 5am everyday so no time in the evenings to post on here as of late.

I'm getting very tired of things the way they are right now with my W. She has been very agitated the past week or so and it's wearing on me. I'll post an update tomorrow with what's been going on with my last week or so. Just need to get some sleep this evening and recharge.

Don/MV/Gordie, I'll respond tomorrow to your posts. Sorry for not replying sooner. But high level I think I'm going to have a conversation this weekend with my W laying out what I need. Not to pressure her or to force her to act/react but more because I think it needs to be said and the status quo needs to be challenged.

I look back at what I was telling my W before we settled into this limbo. I told her I was unwilling to go back to a M that was like it was before (us avoiding each other and her being angry all the time). Now its fully her avoiding me and being angry. I can't control that, but I can tell her that I need a partner who wants to be with me. To keep my word and be true to myself I need to force us out of his horrible limbo.

High level, I think it's something like this:

"Last weekend you told me that we can't even have a conversation with each other. When I asked you what was keeping us from conversing, you didn't answer and just stared off into space. I can see that you're not happy right now. I'm also not happy right now. Im not ok with either one of us being in an unhappy situation.

During this whole thing I've said I'm not willing for us to go back to a M like it was before. I need a partner who enjoys being with me. I need someone who is willing to let me love them and who loves me back. I do love you but I refuse to live like this."

Something like that pretty much and just go from there. IC thinks I need to up the level of challenge with her as this is moving at a glacial pace. I agree, as I'm unwilling to live like this with someone who in all honesty is acting like a brat. IC says with an uppage in challenge I also need to increase my support. So I'll work on that too.

Right now I see two paths. One is that I grind out this existence until D goes to college and W then pushes the S and D. Two is that I push back on her and we either S and D right now, or we make some progress. The second option is really the only one that has any chance of a positive outcome.

So that's my dilemma but the choice seems obvious to me. It's tough to get up the nerve to have that conversation but I know I can get through it unemotionally. I've had one hell of a brutal training course in handling that stuff the past 7 months.

It still frightens me to think of my time with my D being broken up. But I just don't see how I could be the best parent I can be if W is going to be this horribly negative presence in our lives for the next 9 yrs. D deserves better and so do I.

I'll post some more tomorrow. Sorry I've been absent. I really just had to get away for a bit. Know that each and every one of you is appreciated more than you'll ever know.

Glad to see you posted LT. Sounds like a lot of us that got on here at the same time are all at the same place. You have to do what is best for YOU and ur D!! This stuff wears on you after awhile if you focus to much on it so I hope you know you deserve the best!!!! :-). Hang in there!

Originally Posted By: lt0402

Right now I see two paths. One is that I grind out this existence until D goes to college ...

Your daughter is 9. Grinding through 9 more years of your situation isn't really a path, is it.

Hawk! Always awesome to see you. I hope you are doing well too my friend. We do seem to be hitting a wall somewhat as a group right now. Highly frustrating but not wholly unexpected. Thank you for the kind words.

FG, I agree. That path is not an option. I'll not put things on hold for 9 yrs to grind out an existence with someone who does not want to share a life with me. It'll make me a worse dad bc of the strain I think as well. If W does not want to work on us then there needs to be another path for all of us unfortunately.

Don/MV/Gordie, I'm sorry I didn't respond today. Will repond tomorrow if that's ok. Need to do some quick journaling before bed.

Work today. Sent W a message from work. Told her:

M: We have a team for the tough mudder this summer. You should join us. It'd be a lot of fun! Sending you an email if you want to take a look. We could get someone to watch D that morning.

W: No
W: Don't need you to send it to me

M: sounds good

W: ?

M: Not interested in it? Would be fun to have you there but all good

W: Let me get this straight...we haven't had a conversation in years or done anything as a couple in close to ten. Why are you suddenly pretending you want us to do some stupid fitness thing together? Honestly. What is your point here?

M: Thought it would be a fun thing to do. If you don't want to do it that's ok.

Figured I'd reach out and attempt to include her in our race this summer. Some vile coming back but I actually felt pretty good for asking her for some reason. The response wasn't unexpected but my offer was something different from the norm.

Then tonight after we put D to bed we had scheduled time to talk about selling our house and moving into another one that's in the middle school district we want D to be in bc of her friends. Last Monday when I asked W what she wanted in a new house she told me it didn't matter. She also said "how can we look for a house together when we can't even have a conversation". I asked her what she thought was keeping us from having a conversation and she just stared off into space and didn't answer. Also, about a week ago W made a comment about how when she came home for awhile after college her mom made her sleep on her brothers floor bc she didn't want to mess up the guest bedroom. W then told D that the reason why she gets so angry sometimes is bc she gets it from her mother. I tell W that she's nothing like her mom and she's a wonderful mother. No response but I believe it was the right thing to say. I mention this bc it's relevant to our conversation tonight.

So we sit down on the couch and she begrudgingly has a conversation with me. It goes like this...

She tells me she'd like to rent a house, move all our stuff in there, and then sell our house empty. She says that bc we don't have a ton of furniture it would show better that way. I mention that we could get a storage unit to get stuff into to make the house less cluttered to show. She keeps coming back to renting a place and moving in there for a year so we don't have to rush into buying a house we don't want. W also mentions Ds school will sign a waiver to keep her there if we move out of the district.

We talked about the work we need to do and the realtors thoughts about the house. W got mad bc I asked why not buy a house if we find one. I asked her what she was looking for in a place. She said she didn't care and I would just override her anyway and not listen to her. I told her that's not what I wanted as part of this process. Told her I wanted us to make the decisions as partners. She said we aren't capable of working as a team on anything. I should just find a house and tell her to look at it. She said she didn't want to buy a house bc I promised to do all sorts of work on this house and I never followed through. I told her I'm sorry she felt that way but I do not agree. I expressed my concern that we rent a place and can't sell this place. She asked if it was as big of a problem if she was working. I told her it would help but it's still an issue. She said she wanted to go back to work full time but she could t bc of all the house responsibilities. I told her that we should make a list and split the work. I'm happy to help with the workload. She told me there's no way she'd believe me after I didn't do it with this house.

Silence then I told her I can see that you are unhappy and I'm not ok with you being unhappy. W tells me f$ck you, you have no right to tell me that. She gets up, cries, checks on D, blows nose and comes back. I tell her again that I'm not ok with her being unhappy and I'm unhappy too. She says where was I the past ten years when she was begging me to change bc she was unhappy. Where was I when she was doing everything from work to childcare to house stuff. I tell her that none of us should be unhappy. I need someone who will love me and who will let me love them. She starts to talk about D. How D is miserable around me the past 3 weeks. How I haven't listened to her over that period and it's crushed her. I tell W that I'll talk to D and discuss what's going on but that I can manage that with her. I tell her that my relationship with D is the strongest it's ever been. She starts to cry and says that's what breaks her heart. That I cannot see that's not the case. That i can't see i don't have a good relationship with D. I tell W I'll talk to D about it and that D is the most important thing to me in the world.

W tells me this is as good as it gets and she's barely holding it together. I tell W that I love D and I love her. But That if this is as good as it gets we need to discuss things. I tell her I'm not ok with anyone being unhappy. That I want each of us to be happy and be a family. W tells me we have never been a family (ouch). Not once in the past ten years. I tell her I'm sorry she's felt that way but I don't agree with it. She says I never agree with anything anymore. She says we need to figure out one problem at a time and figure out the house stuff as that's the most pressing. I point back to her conversation about her mom making her sleep on the floor. I tell her that I'm not ok with anyone in our family being forced to sleep on the floor. I'm not ok with anyone feeling like an outsider in our family. She tells me to figure out what I want to do and come back to her. I respond that we need to figure that out together and again if this is as good as it gets we need to discuss this. I tell her let's make the checklist of things to work on for the house together tomorrow and then we can discuss things and I get up and go upstairs.

So, had the conversation I'd mentioned in my last post this evening. Not exactly how I'd wanted it to flow but I'm hoping the message was received that I'm unwilling to continue down this path. W needs to know that going back to our previous M is unacceptable to me. We will see. Off to bed as I'm wiped out. Thank you all for your thoughts and support.

Oh man, LT. Something is really wrong. This doesn't read like a normal conversation. She has such contempt for you, yet won't articulate it or try to resolve it. She could resolve it by working on the problem or walk away. But she seems stuck. And renting a house so you can sell a house empty? I've never heard of that. That's loopy! And every "bid" you make to make a connection (to use Gottman's paradigm), she rejects with anger. She hates you but can't leave you. So weird!

I'm with Gump. She really is struggling but almost want to stay mad. That's her pay off in all of this. She wants the drama and want to be mad. Then she comes up with crazy ideas and is upset when you shoot them down. For example this house thing. Good Lord people PAY MONEY to have an empty house staged with furniture because any realtor with anything will tell you a furnished house sells easier and for more money!

Sadly I think you may have to just do things without her. Tell her look. I want to do thus WITH you but either way I'm doing it. And then do it - whatever it is. She doesn't want to feel better. I don't know if it's her depression or what but the last thing she wants is for you and D to be doing well. She likely sees you are so then wants to down okay it. If it was a bright sunshine day she's find a reason to complain.

I really think you have to be as sting as you can be and not allow her to do this. If she claims that you and D are not doing well, force her to give you a solid example. If it's not true you may have to get D and ask right in front of W "mom tells me I may gave upset you when I stirred the milk with a knife. Dud that bother you D because if it did I really want to know." When D confirms it was not a problem W gas no leg to stand on. Then fine and repeat

Mist sadly, the only thing W may respond to is you dropping the toe and moving on. That may be the only thing that shakes her awake!

FG, yeah, every time I attempt to attune with her it's instantly shot down, trampled on, then set on fire. IC and I discussed how to approach the conversation we just had and he told me to expect her to initially push me away as a result of it. Seems like anytime I make a bid it just causes her to stiff arm me instead of allowing me to get closer.

On the house, yeah that was unexpected. I'm not sure in what world that makes sense. The only thought I have is that she's being less than truthful to me and the house sale unlocks some of our home equity for her and the rental makes it easier to break free. She should know by now though that all she has to do is say she's leaving and she can go. The only stipulation I have is I won't take less than 50/50 time with my D. Everything else is negotiable. But she still continues to stay and Act like a sulking teenager. Very frustrating.

She articulates how bad of a person I am and how horribly I treated her in the past. She's very pointed at commenting where she know thinks it will hurt me (we were never a family). She doesn't realize that after our August blowup though, I won't give her the joy of pushing my buttons. It [censored] bc this is not a person I'm willing to spend my life, or even 9 more years with. I'm hoping the conversation last night gets her thinking about either an exit or actually working on things. I can't do this alone, at least not with the walls she has erected. But yes, I agree, she does seem to hate me. Not sure how I'm supposed to work through that.

DonH, on your post a week ago I do agree that she seemed to be hinting at me needing to challenge her more. She made a couple other comments around sex type stuff after that in an off handed way. In the past she actually told me one time that I needed to stick up for myself more. Guess I should have listened back then. But I do think challenge is needed right now. Either to break down her walls or just for my sanity. I'm trying not to let the last conversation wear on me but man it's brutal at times.

She very much seems to want to stay mad. I almost think it may be her way of avoiding having to face her issues that have contributed to this. If she can pin all the blame on me then she never needs to face her demons. I'm not sure I'll ever be able to get her out of an angry state.

On the house thing I am going to get the realtor out to the house and have her opine on how best to sell it. I agree that what wife is proposing is off kilter. You may be right that she doesn't want to feel better. It would explain a lot. Unsure why she wouldn't though. I know my R with my D is on firm ground. If it was not then I don't think D would want to do all the things we do together. Had a good snuggle session with her while watching a movie tonight. Love that kid.

Let me think of the best way to get an example out of her. I've done that before and she hasn't been able to give one. I've wondered if W is just projecting her feelings and thoughts onto D. i.e. When she talks about D she's really talking about herself. It's about the only thing that'd make sense to me, though none of this really does. I have no clue what will shake her awake though. I'm going to keep firm that I can't live like this and push back. I'll validate where I can but I won't affirm nonsense. I really can't live like this. Life is too short and I know that I can make a good home for D without W if it comes to that. She's welcome to join us but I can't force her to, nor will I.

MV, I'd be curious to get your thoughts around the conversation yesterday and how I follow it up. I tried to leverage your thoughts from a week ago as I agree with them.

Thanks to all of you for the aid and support. Would be lost without you.

LT-

I'm sorry but your wife just sounds like she's in poor mental health. I'm not saying that to be dismissive of your marital problems. I'm sure you two have serious marital issues, like all marriages do. But your wife appears unable to conduct any kind of reasonable and constructive dialog with you. Her mind is stuck on anger and contempt, and is just unreasonable. DonH suggests eminently reasonable ways to try to work through disagreements but that assumes your wife will converse with you in a reasonable way. I don't see it happening. Do you?

It seems to me that the first priority must be for your wife to regain some mental health. That is, for her to know what she wants, and take reasonable steps towards her desired goals. Right now I see someone who cannot articulate what she wants, and even if she does, she is unable to take steps towards achieving them.

Is there a way to get her into counseling? Maybe you can suggest that you find a counselor who will simply help you talk to each other -- not about saving the marriage, just communicate and understand each other. I seem to recall there is a type of counselor who specializes in having couples simply evaluate whether they should stay together or divorce. Maybe something like that, she might palatable? You wouldn't be dragging here there to necessarily save your marriage. You'd be going just to understand where you are.

I guess if I were in your shoes, I wouldn't give up on your marriage until/unless you've done all you can to get your wife professional help. If she is resolute in refusing professional help... then I think you have to think about letting her go.

Wow, once again Gump hits it out of the park. I totally agree with every word!

Sorry about my typo-laden response. Not sure how autocorrect helps? Hope you were able to read around all of it.

You are very correct that much of what W says about D is really her thoughts about you. I don't think she even understands she is doing it! When she says you are dong whatever and it bothers D it's really W that is bothered. Sadly the same happens to D. I remember your D saying she wishes you would not agitate mom - well that is 100% your W telling D that. There is no way a child would come up with that on her own. She hears her mother talk like that and repeats it.

Once again my largest concern is that your D has a very good chance of growing up to be just like her mom. She has seen this behavior modeled for her so she thinks this is normal and how a W should behave.

Again, Gump has very much nailed it in that W is too sick to be able to work through any of this. She really needs professional help and if there is any way you can help that to happen, it would be a gift to her and then down the road potentially to your M. I agree that she is not being rational so any rational ideas won't work.

Again, I don't think W will change unless forced to. Her payoff and security is staying mad and claiming it's all your fault. You must not bow to her crazy making. You have to stay calm and rational. Thing is, if allowed to, W will keep dong this as her anxiety won't allow her to get help. If she sees she will lose D 50% of the time as well as lose her security of job and income, she may be forced to fix this. It is no different and actually the same as a H that has his W complaining all the time. She tries to get him to look at the M, fix his issues and stand up and work on the M. He does nothing until the day the bomb is dropped. When that happens, he will move mountains to save his M. I see your W needing and doing the same. It may be your only shot. Sadly, you may get to the point, like a waw that you no longer want her. I hope you can get her light bulb to turn on before that

Like all Rs this is not all your W. It's the dynamic you and her have followed for years. That is now changing and your M may survive it or not. Time will tell. There are things you will have to change as well to fix your half but for any of that to happen W has to get out of the depression she is in. Gumps suggestion of seeing someone to communicate better might allow that to happen.

Hi guys,

Sorry to interupt you lovely guys. Nice to see men supporting other men!!

I did however just want to add a woman's perspective. Also let me apologise upfront, I haven't read all your posts and know your situation. So please ignore anything I have to say, I so won't be offended. I rarely post these days, only when I am inspired.

So then, as a woman reading what she your wife said lt0402.. your wife's simply really p***ed off and to me she sounds like she has been carrying around alot of anger and resentment for many years. And NOW you want to show up and be the guy she always wanted. She told you twice that you two can't have a conversation, and you continued to proceed.

If you are going to save this marriage, I think you would benefit from reall listening what she is telling you. Listen and validate. Your wife doesn't sound like a wayward or MLC spewer to me. But I am no expert. She sounds like she really wants you to listen.

My friend Zues, talks repeatedly about how easy it is for us to diagnose our other halves, rather than opening ourselves up to truly hearing and empathising with our spouses experience. To be frank nothing about the above says diagnosable mental health issues. She is a woman going through a change and is directionless and trying to manage emotions. You are doing the same and you are confusing her too with your behaviour. She told you as much.

Just another impression, you seem a little Mr Fix it. Offering up a whole lot of solutions about whole lot of things. I can tell you I want nothing less from my partner, when I am feeling confused and overwhelmed to hear his likely very marvellous and helpful solutions. I remember when I was in therapy discussing my difficulties with MR Ex. I always felt extraordinarly uncared for, unheard and frustrated by him rushing to solutions. Particularly when I felt we had not discussed the "real issue" or he hadn't really listened.

Think you wife has a real issue she wants you to understand and you aren't getting it. The real issue I feel is she's angry for the years you didn't do.....(fill in the gap).

In addition if I was thinking about leaving you, I wouldn't want to buy a house with you. I would be working towards either maintaining the status quo or something that was temporary. Her decision to not enter into something that it going to cause more difficulty to undo for the two of you, if your marriage doesn't get back into a good place, is a sensible one. It may well be something that you too should consider before jumping into major change.

As for your W other presentation about being indecisive and not knowing what she wants. Her marriage and family is potentially ending. Why wouldn't she be confused and indecisive, emotional snappy and unreasonable. You're struggling why wouldn't she?

I don't disagree that your wife accessing IC or other support is a good idea. I just don't think there is enough evidence to say she has mental health issues. She seems angry and resentful to me, pretty typical for a WAW.

Anyway that is my 2c. Feel free to ignore.

All the best JellyBxxx

lt,

I saw Jelly's name and couldn't help but read a few posts. She makes a good point, those that diagnose and blame their WAS's render themselves powerless to make positive change. Those that are accountable for their role have a road map for actions they can take that may save their family.

A couple of things stood out for me. I did cut/paste a few of your words, but not to change their meaning, only to organize them into some of the things I noticed.

The first thing is that your WAS seems to be telling you she feels that she has no voice in your relationship. She tells you that she feels you aren't hearing her and that you haven't for many years, and that because of this she endured more pain than she can manage anymore and she doesn't trust you to hear her now. And when she tells you this you disagree some more. Some of those highlights:

Quote:

She says where was I the past ten years when she was begging me to change bc she was unhappy. Where was I when she was doing everything from work to childcare to house stuff.

We haven't had a conversation in years or done anything as a couple in close to ten.

Last Monday when I asked W what she wanted in a new house she told me it didn't matter. She also said "how can we look for a house together when we can't even have a conversation".

She tells me she'd like to rent a house, move all our stuff in there, and then sell our house empty. She says that bc we don't have a ton of furniture it would show better that way. I mention that we could get a storage unit to get stuff into to make the house less cluttered to show.

We talked about the work we need to do and the realtors thoughts about the house. W got mad bc I asked why not buy a house if we find one.

I asked her what she was looking for in a place. She said she didn't care and I would just override her anyway and not listen to her. I told her that's not what I wanted as part of this process. Told her I wanted us to make the decisions as partners. She said we aren't capable of working as a team on anything. I should just find a house and tell her to look at it.

She said she didn't want to buy a house bc I promised to do all sorts of work on this house and I never followed through. I told her I'm sorry she felt that way but I do not agree.

I expressed my concern that we rent a place and can't sell this place. She asked if it was as big of a problem if she was working. I told her it would help but it's still an issue. She said she wanted to go back to work full time but she could t bc of all the house responsibilities. I told her that we should make a list and split the work. I'm happy to help with the workload. She told me there's no way she'd believe me after I didn't do it with this house.

W tells me we have never been a family (ouch). Not once in the past ten years. I tell her I'm sorry she's felt that way but I don't agree with it. She says I never agree with anything anymore.

She starts to talk about D. How D is miserable around me the past 3 weeks. How I haven't listened to her over that period and it's crushed her. I tell W that I'll talk to D and discuss what's going on but that I can manage that with her. I tell her that my relationship with D is the strongest it's ever been.

WAS has her version of reality which is just as right and true and reasonable as you do. And feelings are feelings. They can't be wrong. While you may feel differently than she does, that doesn't mean her feelings aren't real and that her views aren't legitimate.

When I read your responses I can see why she might feel defeated. You aren't hearing anything she is saying. You are minimizing, diminishing, dismissing, disagreeing, or at best placating. You say you want to do things jointly, as long as it fits the relationship repair program you seem to have etched in your mind and meets your timelines as well.

I'd recommend you read the validation cheat sheet a few times a day for a while and to reread some of your posts and conversation highlights.

http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2457566&page=1

What if...what if...what if? What if her feelings were legitimate, and because of how you've acted in the past she has suffered and has very valid reasons for being protective of herself and mistrustful of you? Wouldn't this be good information to know if you want to save your marriage?

The next section has to do with the talk of feelings and timelines:

Quote:

I'll not put things on hold for 9 yrs to grind out an existence with someone who does not want to share a life with me.

I tell W that I love D and I love her. But That if this is as good as it gets we need to discuss things. I tell her I'm not ok with anyone being unhappy. That I want each of us to be happy and be a family.

W needs to know that going back to our previous M is unacceptable to me. We will see.

Silence then I told her I can see that you are unhappy and I'm not ok with you being unhappy. W tells me f$ck you, you have no right to tell me that. She gets up, cries, checks on D, blows nose and comes back. I tell her again that I'm not ok with her being unhappy and I'm unhappy too. I tell her that none of us should be unhappy. I need someone who will love me and who will let me love them.

You talk a lot about happy and love. You also talk about what you will and won't accept in your life, which in the context of a marriage that is on the verge of breaking up can escalate things very quickly.

My newcomer advice always includes this disclosure: Don't follow your feelings, they are a horrible compass as they will be bouncing around haywire for a while. Don't trust your thoughts, your thoughts are just rationalizations of your feelings. Instead, follow your BELIEFS. Those are the things you know to be right and are greater than yourself. They will steer you through. I also throw out the challenge that if you can't stick to your beliefs despite how you feel, how can you expect her to do any better? Act with the character you wish she had.

What are your beliefs about divorce? Is it ok to divorce because your spouse doesn't want to work on their marriage the way you feel you should work on it, when you want them to? You throw out timelines and conditions, how do you excuse your own neglect for the last 10 years and now demand her instant prioritization of your needs? Is it because she was wrong to feel that way for 10 years, but you're right to feel the way you feel now?

Personally I think that happiness and love are lousy reasons to talk divorce. Emotions are just a reflection of how we've been treating each other lately. If you learn to treat each other differently, the emotions can and will change. Emotions don't lead, they follow. Love is a decision, not a feeling. And divorce is a decision as well.

In the end no one is going to be 'happy' if happy means getting everything they want. The question is whether we want to be unhappy and separate and blame our spouse and raise children in a broken home setting a poor example that will hurt their future relationships, or do we want to be unhappy and accept that it's because the world is difficult and we don't always get what we want but honor the commitments we made and live for things beyond our current mood so we can be unhappy inside of an intact family with good kids and a dependable partner and maybe somedays when you least expect it realize that love means acting loving when you don't feel like it and you are surprised to feel fulfilled in a way more meaningful than just getting what you thought you wanted at the moment?

lt, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could benefit from some humility here. DR calls it the beginner's mind. The idea that you may be missing something, there is something going on you might not be able to see if you think you can see it all. I hear you shouting your own narrative of how you see things and what's happening, and it's drowning out what she's telling you.

I get it, it's hard and scary because if you listen to what she's telling you it might not be what you want to hear, and maybe that means you have to accept things you don't want to accept, like the loss of a marriage, or the fact you won't get everything you want in your life, or that you might not always be happy. But there's also a chance that begins a true dialogue the likes of which WAS has been craving for years, and that there is a way for things to work out to a point that, while not able to meet all of your demands, might be wholesome and fulfilling in ways you can't even appreciate right now.

What Zues said!

Thanks my friend, that was exactly what I was trying very badly to articulate. Zues' comments and reflections are solid LT. Take them and marinade in them. See where they take you. Wishing you only the very best from this journey. Jellyb xxx

FG/DonH/JellyB/Zues, first off, thank you so much for all your thoughts as always. JellyB and Zues, i appreciate you bringing in a different view of things as well. I do become concerned that at times I pigeon hole my thinking on this stuff, so your perspective is helpful. FG and DonH, you both know that you are my rocks and have been crucial in helping me figure this stuff out.

Let me think through my response to all this and come back when i've got a chunk of time in front of the computer. Some good things to churn through here. Will be back later today. Thank you all!

I do appreciate the different angle offered by Jelly & Zeus. As DB coaches like to say, YOU are the one on the "front lines" so only you know how best various advices offered apply to your situation.

I do hope it is the case that Jelly & Zeus's take on the situation is right. Maybe if you (LT) spent a couple of weeks totally focusing on:
a) really listening to your W;
b) try not to fix a single thing, don't be a fixer;
c) respect her every wish.

Maybe it's worth trying to see if that changes her anger & contempt for you? Or maybe you've already tried this....

Picked up the tone FG. I'll quietly back out. Good luck LT. JellyBxxx

FG, I'm unsure my W will agree to go get professional help. She seems to have alot pent up inside her (anger, resentment, contempt) and on the surface it seems like it'd do alot of good to see an IC. I've suggested once before, after we did that one session of MC, but have not harped on it bc of the thought that it comes off as controlling. I have been thinking about taking her to the previous MC whom she seemed to open up to, but that was an attack fest on me there. I think going that approach would spell the end of my M, which may be worth it if it gets my W to a better place. Here's an example of our dialogue via text while i'm at work today:

Me: "Hey you. How's your day going? Ran into the neighbor, they said we could come over and check out their cabinets to see the work the contractor did. Thinking about grabbing D flowers for V. day, what do you think?"

W: "I already saw the cabinets and got an estimate. I told you that. I'm getting a couple more. You don't need to worry about that, i will give you the estimates tomorrow. I'm already handling it like i told you i was. Stop asking me how my day is going like you care. D already has flowers at home."

Me: "ok, let's discuss the estimates tomorrow and we can decide. I am curious how your day is going but i get that you don't want to talk about it."

W: "Why? Why do you pretend to ask about my day all of a sudden. Why do you pretend everything is fine. I'm genuinely asking bc it makes zero sense and is making things worse. it is fake. it is insulting."

Me: "I understand how you could see it that way. I took away from chatting w/ you on fri that things are not fine. How can we make things better for you?"

W: "Are you f'ing kidding me?"

Me: "No"

I'm lost in how to interact with her. At this point maybe i'm not supposed to. The interactions are just so brutal. The continuation of stuff like that just makes it seem like a dimmer and dimmer chance we can reconnect. Starting to feel worn down at this point. Maybe that's what she's attempting to do, i don't know.

DonH, i definitely don't want my D to model my Ws current behavior. D seems well balanced, but I could see how that'd be a risk. I refuse to have Ws anxiety drive our family anymore, but i tend to choose which battles are worth fighting. Last night I caught flack from her because i went in the kitchen when she was in there. She got angry and said "could you just have not waited 2 minutes until i'm out of the kitchen?". I looked at her and just responded back "i'd appreciate you not speaking to me like that". It's tiring constantly having to beat back though. The dynamic is only different now bc i push back when she flies off the handle. Trying to work on what i can fix with me, but not seeing any budging on her end.

JellyB, very interested in your thoughts on this. I find myself very quick to try to interpret Ws actions as stubborn/hateful/purposeful. She was, and may still be, a WW. However, i do know from conversations that she holds a massive amount of resentment/contempt that has been building up since day 1 of our M. Her consistent messages to me are:

1) I never took the time to have conversations with her or hear her
2) I never helped her with our D
3) I never did what i said i would do with regards to housework, especially the yard

I have worked hard to remedy #2 and #3, as well as some other flaws i've realized i have as a man/person. I know i've only scratched the surface of the work I need to do. I'm wholly unsure how to press forward w/ her reacting to me how she is currently, though. As you can tell, i've reinvigorated work on #1, but there seems to be no traction to be gained using my current approach. I do get how that resentment would have built up over time until we got here.

I've tried to really listen to her, but all i get in return from her is that I "sound like a therapist". Perhaps it's in my delivery. I'll re-read the validation thread and I've also got a book on communciation i've been meaning to rip into once i get through my current on on boundaries.

Originally Posted By: JellyB

My friend Zues, talks repeatedly about how easy it is for us to diagnose our other halves, rather than opening ourselves up to truly hearing and empathising with our spouses experience. To be frank nothing about the above says diagnosable mental health issues. She is a woman going through a change and is directionless and trying to manage emotions. You are doing the same and you are confusing her too with your behaviour. She told you as much.

Ok, so this slams home. I guess my dilemma (besides working to empathize more w/ her experience) is how do i keep my changes/behavior from confusing her. I know that I cannot provide the direction for her as she works her way through her journey, but I struggle with how not to interact with her as we still share the same home. One of the issues we had was conflict avoidance and completely shutting down interaction with her seems like more of the same. I am trying to challenge her where necessary (i.e. the house stuff, my need for a partner who will love me and allow me to love them, etc) in order to create some friction w/ the hope of gaining some traction for things. I feel like if i leave things to stew then I know where this path leads and it's 9 yrs of angst until D goes off to college. I'm 100% open to your thoughts around anything here please.

Originally Posted By: JellyB

In addition if I was thinking about leaving you, I wouldn't want to buy a house with you. I would be working towards either maintaining the status quo or something that was temporary. Her decision to not enter into something that it going to cause more difficulty to undo for the two of you, if your marriage doesn't get back into a good place, is a sensible one. It may well be something that you too should consider before jumping into major change.

Good point. I also would like some direction before we go this route, but i'm not averse to the idea. If we go into this with uncertainty, then i'd want the home to be something one of us could afford by ourselves. One of the reasons i want to have this conversation with her before we sell our current home.

Originally Posted By: JellyB

As for your W other presentation about being indecisive and not knowing what she wants. Her marriage and family is potentially ending. Why wouldn't she be confused and indecisive, emotional snappy and unreasonable. You're struggling why wouldn't she?

All good points and highlights a need for compassion on my part. To me, it's more of the same behaviour on her end though. Highly frustrating as I've lived with it for years and am realizing now how damaging it is to not stand up to it.
But appreciate the thread you have throughout your message around compassion and empathy.

Originally Posted By: JellyB

Anyway that is my 2c. Feel free to ignore.

All very much read, understood, and being slowly digested. Thank you so much Jelly for your thoughts!

Originally Posted By: Zues126

The first thing is that your WAS seems to be telling you she feels that she has no voice in your relationship. She tells you that she feels you aren't hearing her and that you haven't for many years, and that because of this she endured more pain than she can manage anymore and she doesn't trust you to hear her now. And when she tells you this you disagree some more.

I'm unsure how to break this roadblock in our communication. I get that it's me who isn't hearing her, but I do feel like i'm leaps and bounds from where i had been. Whenever we talk, she always asks for me to answer her thoughts at some point. It's never really true validation, where you sit there, listen, empathize, and validate. As soon as I start to put out my thoughts on the matter is where things seem to go south. Open to thoughts here.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I do believe her feelings are legitimate based on our past history. I know I've not heard her in the past and looking back there are points where we could have been more collaborative on things. Your point about "minimizing, diminishing, dismissing, disagreeing, or at best placating" hits home bc I'm not trying to do that, but can see how it's construed or can come across to her as such. That's started from a place of having boundaries, one of which is that I'm not willing to be spoken to horribly. In the past i'd asked her to not speak to me like that and then extricated myself from the conversation. Maybe now I'm finding myself more willing to stick it out and push back, which you're right, is probably counterproductive. A delicate balance and hard to find the right time to take either tact.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

What are your beliefs about divorce? Is it ok to divorce because your spouse doesn't want to work on their marriage the way you feel you should work on it, when you want them to? You throw out timelines and conditions, how do you excuse your own neglect for the last 10 years and now demand her instant prioritization of your needs? Is it because she was wrong to feel that way for 10 years, but you're right to feel the way you feel now?

I push because I find myself deciding i'm not willing to grind out an existence like this for the next 9 years. I've no excuse for my faults over the past 10 years. If i could take my frame of mind now and impart it on myself back then I'd do it in a heartbeat. I feel like i'm in a place now where I would have been able to properly grow my M with my W 10 years ago. Getting there now that we're in this hole I've dug, though, seems to require a level of self realization and compassion i've yet to attain. It's almost like reading a book to learn how to disarm a nuclear bomb, as you stare at one w/ a countdown sitting at 100 seconds. I'm unsure how exactly to get up to speed quick enough to help the ship right itself. Does that make sense?

Originally Posted By: Zues126

In the end no one is going to be 'happy' if happy means getting everything they want. The question is whether we want to be unhappy and separate and blame our spouse and raise children in a broken home setting a poor example that will hurt their future relationships, or do we want to be unhappy and accept that it's because the world is difficult and we don't always get what we want but honor the commitments we made and live for things beyond our current mood so we can be unhappy inside of an intact family with good kids and a dependable partner and maybe somedays when you least expect it realize that love means acting loving when you don't feel like it and you are surprised to feel fulfilled in a way more meaningful than just getting what you thought you wanted at the moment?

Very good point. I don't take the divorce question lightly. I'm not looking for an easy out, or to escape with no blame. I'll always accept the blame for allowing my M to get where it currently sits. It makes me sad to think about how easy it would have been to fix this years ago had i had the tools. I don't need everything in the world to be happy in my M. I want my D to be successful and well balanced in life and have an intact family unit. I just realize that i also have needs. One of which is a partner who would be there for me. I know that's asking alot, as i've not been the best at being there for my W the past 10 yrs, but I don't see in our current state how we live in anything but "this" without some challenge and change...

Originally Posted By: Zues126

lt, I guess what I'm trying to say is that you could benefit from some humility here. DR calls it the beginner's mind. The idea that you may be missing something, there is something going on you might not be able to see if you think you can see it all. I hear you shouting your own narrative of how you see things and what's happening, and it's drowning out what she's telling you.

This. I agree. I'm constantly worried that my bias is being imparted in the telling of this stuff. Perhaps i'm too in my own head. I'll reread this section of DR as well. I do not want to drown anything out, but I feel like i'm trying my hardest to hear for that small thing, but can't find it in any of the noise.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

I get it, it's hard and scary because if you listen to what she's telling you it might not be what you want to hear, and maybe that means you have to accept things you don't want to accept, like the loss of a marriage, or the fact you won't get everything you want in your life, or that you might not always be happy. But there's also a chance that begins a true dialogue the likes of which WAS has been craving for years, and that there is a way for things to work out to a point that, while not able to meet all of your demands, might be wholesome and fulfilling in ways you can't even appreciate right now.

I'd take anything from her right now with regards to positive/neutral communication. I can't seem to get out of the spew aspect of this. If the message is that our M won't work, then we can discuss how to work through that. If the message is that it takes x-y-z to make it work, then we can work through that too. I'm just at wits end that I'm unable to discern a coherent message either way. Maybe i'm too deep in this thing to see it though. Thank you Zues for all of the honest/open thoughts and feedback. They are very much appreciated!

Originally Posted By: ForGump

FG, yeah, i completely see what you're getting at. I know that b and c lead to nowhere with her. a is something i definitely need to work on.

The discussion has been good to get my brain thinking from a different angle though. It's possible that me taking a step back and looking at it from a different lens is in order. I don't think I can drop the piece around pushing back against her anxiety as that doesn't seem healthy. But I need to make sure that I'm able to validate and empathize in those rare moments she gives me. Some skills that have perhaps dropped off somewhat in the past few months.

JellyB, please don't feel like you need to exit. Happy to have your thoughts here as well. Regardless, i appreciate you having taken the time to opine!

To all of you, know that you are extremely appreciated. We're all in the midst of some difficult things and I cannot express how thankful i am that you've chosen to help me in mine.

Just to clarify:

a) really listening to your W;
YES. Validation is critical.
b) try not to fix a single thing, don't be a fixer; Hmm...I don't think you should fix anything with WAS. Trying to change her is controlling and remaining attached to her behavior.

I do recommend trying to change yourself and your behavior. But you do have to detach and let go of any expectations about what it will 'get you' in terms of how she'll respond.

c) respect her every wish.
NO. Validation isn't about agreeing and going along with anything she says. It is about hearing her. There will be plenty of times when you can't go along with her, just make sure it is because of your beliefs about what's best for the family, not in an effort to control her somehow.

Short and simple, keep focused on you. Where you strayed from the path of a strong supportive husband. Where you can improve. How you can best lead your family forward.

For me I think that would look like improved validation skills, a detachment from what you think her issues are, and a decrease of expectations as to what you want from her right now. I think these things are imperative to the survival of your marriage. And VALIDATE, DETACH, NO EXPECTATIONS is hardly a new concept. I'm just talking about how this looks in his situation based on what I've read so far.

Plenty of need for all of our support. Oh, and LT, if it makes you feel better, sometimes the smartest people have the hardest time being open minded because you have so many good ideas and are used to being right. So the fact I think you needed a beginners mind probably means you're very intelligent and used to excelling at what you do. All good things. Sometimes that can get in the way though, and you have to be smart enough to know when

Later gang.

lt0402,

I have some of the same communication problems that you have. I am a newbie, but here are some of the improvements that I have made for myself which have helped my R with my W:

1. Stop text messaging unless it is purely about logistics or about kids or to communicate need to know concrete details. That means no open ended questions like how is your day or how are you feeling. Try to go a whole day without any text messages and then another...

2. When you are listening, make eye contact and just listen without interruption or distraction. If there is a natural pause in the conversation, you can validate what you heard...or you can ask questions to show that not only are you listening, but that you are interested to know more about what she thinks and feels...someone here said remember TED and that has been helpful to me: (a) tell me more about... (b) explain to me what you mean by... and (c) describe what XXX is...

3. Instead of giving answers, even when asked for answers, do a 180 and change from the guy with ALL the answers to the guy with NO answers...this takes humility...learn how to say...I don't know...I'm not sure...I need more time to think about that...can I get back to you on that tomorrow...that is way outside of my expertise...

Above all, be genuine, if you come across as fake it will backfire...

still haven't solved the lack of respect issue. You have way more patients for that than I do.

Originally Posted By: mvgfwd2

still haven't solved the lack of respect issue. You have way more patients for that than I do.

No one should tolerate blatant disrespect.

I reread everything I posted and don't see anything I suggested that contradicts this advice.

When I talk about validation, I'm assuming that WAS is just making a few nasty spew comments here and there. If she says "Why bother talking about it, nothing I say is going to matter anyway" in a nasty tone, there is no reason not to validate and say "I understand you've felt that I haven't heard your voice in our marriage. You must've felt very neglected. I can see why you'd be angry after all these years, and why you wouldn't want to bother talking to me about things anymore."

Then stop, just stop. No "But if you talk to me now it will be different" or anything. No. Because we want to communicate with ACTIONS, NOT WORDS. By validating and shutting up we are SHOWING her we can listen. But trying to validate and then trying to get her to have a conversation she didn't want to have we are showing her we aren't listening or respecting her preferences, which proves we didn't mean what we said. See? Validate and STFU.

So yes, if validating a few snotty comments means putting up with disrespect, then yes, you need to validate and STFU. I challenge anyone to disagree with that.

BUT- if behavior is truly disrespectful...name calling, swearing, screeching, flaunting another man in your face, saying nasty things to your child about you...THEN you need to put a stop to it. That's a boundary. That's where you simply say "I won't carry on a conversation with this type of disrespect. I'm willing to speak to you when you've calmed down." Then walk away. Or "It hurts our child when they are in the middle of this. We both need to speak respectfully about each other when we're around our child. Can you agree to that?" (If not, talk to your lawyer)

All in all, there are fine lines between being a pushover, being a strong man, and being a jacka$$. Don't be a pushover, but don't be a jacka$$. When things are outside of your boundaries, validate. Focus on your behavior to lead your family the best you can. When things cross your boundaries, defend yourself without retaliating or controlling. Just be strong. Let the water crash upon the rocks.

As I look back at my sitch I have navigated through a lot of crap. Attempted suicide while she had primary parental time, a string of other men, black out drinking, and a lot of things that could've escalated the situation with me and XW very easily. When I was in tremendous emotional turmoil and grieving the loss of my marriage I was forced with horrible circumstances that forced me to make bold decisions which impacted the lives and well being of my children. I am pretty darn proud that I was able to be strong where I needed to and laid back when strength wasn't needed. As a result, despite her meltdown and insane behavior I have 50% parental time, happy and healthy children, and a professional working relationship with the mother of my children which allows us to cooperate a bit for everyone's best interest- especially the children's. No, my marriage wasn't saved, that was clearly not going to be a possibility. But I have become the man she was a fool to leave and I conducted myself in a way that was best for my family and will never trouble me about what I could've done differently. My life has never been better than it is today.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Short and simple, keep focused on you. Where you strayed from the path of a strong supportive husband. Where you can improve. How you can best lead your family forward.

For me I think that would look like improved validation skills, a detachment from what you think her issues are, and a decrease of expectations as to what you want from her right now. I think these things are imperative to the survival of your marriage. And VALIDATE, DETACH, NO EXPECTATIONS is hardly a new concept. I'm just talking about how this looks in his situation based on what I've read so far.

Zues, very good thoughts around this. I'll be the first to admit, that while i've tried to consistently validate, I've not always been that great at it. Alot of times w/ the anger that comes from my W, i find myself quickly needing to choose bt validating and standing for my boundary. I'm not sure i always make the right choice and it leads to alot of second guessing. This all is an iterative process it seems, and I'm hoping to learn from each interaction and adapt to what i may or may not have done wrong. Appreciate the kind words and helpful thoughts brother!

Gordie, first off, awesome and useful advice. Here's a few thoughts:

Originally Posted By: Gordie

1. Stop text messaging unless it is purely about logistics or about kids or to communicate need to know concrete details. That means no open ended questions like how is your day or how are you feeling. Try to go a whole day without any text messages and then another...

Generally I'd agree with this. For me, i've spent so much time not communicating with her, even via text, that I'd wanted to try a 180 there. You're right about the open ended questions though. They either get ignored or ignite some vitriol from her end. Perhaps I'll go back to the more "business" oriented texting approach. Need to give that some thought.

Originally Posted By: Gordie

2. When you are listening, make eye contact and just listen without interruption or distraction. If there is a natural pause in the conversation, you can validate what you heard...or you can ask questions to show that not only are you listening, but that you are interested to know more about what she thinks and feels...someone here said remember TED and that has been helpful to me: (a) tell me more about... (b) explain to me what you mean by... and (c) describe what XXX is...

TED, awesome! Going to borrow that one. All of the above seems like great advice.

Originally Posted By: Gordie

3. Instead of giving answers, even when asked for answers, do a 180 and change from the guy with ALL the answers to the guy with NO answers...this takes humility...learn how to say...I don't know...I'm not sure...I need more time to think about that...can I get back to you on that tomorrow...that is way outside of my expertise...

You're right, i'm not used to being the guy w/o the answers. Historically I've been very quick to look for/provide solutions. Will be on guard for this. One thing I'm not sure of though is the house stuff with regards to this whole sell the house, rent another one thing. Immediately that seems like a bad idea to me. Perhaps the best approach is to validate the idea, take it away to think about it, and then come back with my thoughts. Unsure how to do that w/o it sounding like i'm attacking her.

Originally Posted By: Gordie

Above all, be genuine, if you come across as fake it will backfire...

Yep. I'm a pretty informal guy, so trying to craft alot of this stuff into an informal tone is tough for me. Work in progress. Thanks Gordie!

Originally Posted By: mvgfwd2

still haven't solved the lack of respect issue. You have way more patients for that than I do.

unsure if that patience is a good or bad thing at this point MV. I agree that the respect thing is still a large issue in all this, but man it gets tiring being on guard and watching for her stepping over my boundary all the time. I've stood my ground with her at times, but haven't been as firm as we've all discussed. being as that's one of the only things i haven't tried w/ regards to the disrespect, perhaps that's the next step here. Open to your thoughts my friend as always. Appreciate your steady and honest presence here brother.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

No one should tolerate blatant disrespect.

Agree w/ you Zues. One of the consistent issues in my situation has been a large amount of disrespect from my W. It's ebbed and flowed throughout this, but it was rough in the beginning. Some of what is being perceived as bad behavior on my end may be me overreacting to the perceived disrespect from my W. There was a stretch during this where I was being attacked multiple times per day by W and I had to stand my ground very firmly. I almost wonder if that's ingrained/trained this behavior in me and now i see an affront from her, even when there is none. Unsure, but man is it hard to have an unbiased view when you're living in the middle of this thing.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

When I talk about validation, I'm assuming that WAS is just making a few nasty spew comments here and there. If she says "Why bother talking about it, nothing I say is going to matter anyway" in a nasty tone, there is no reason not to validate and say "I understand you've felt that I haven't heard your voice in our marriage. You must've felt very neglected. I can see why you'd be angry after all these years, and why you wouldn't want to bother talking to me about things anymore."

For me, I've gotten to a point where i can mostly control the initial emotional response to my Ws comments. I'm able to keep that balance during our conversations as well. It's taken awhile, but it's one skill that I've been able to get down. I do have a difficult time pushing through the validation piece though. Each time I attempt to do it, my W responds w/ "Would you stop with the therapy talk". This is one skill i've yet to be able to hone.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Then stop, just stop. No "But if you talk to me now it will be different" or anything. No. Because we want to communicate with ACTIONS, NOT WORDS. By validating and shutting up we are SHOWING her we can listen. But trying to validate and then trying to get her to have a conversation she didn't want to have we are showing her we aren't listening or respecting her preferences, which proves we didn't mean what we said. See? Validate and STFU.

Read, understood, and stored away. This is excellent reading and good advice.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

BUT- if behavior is truly disrespectful...name calling, swearing, screeching, flaunting another man in your face, saying nasty things to your child about you...THEN you need to put a stop to it. That's a boundary. That's where you simply say "I won't carry on a conversation with this type of disrespect. I'm willing to speak to you when you've calmed down." Then walk away. Or "It hurts our child when they are in the middle of this. We both need to speak respectfully about each other when we're around our child. Can you agree to that?" (If not, talk to your lawyer)

Lived this for a few months. Not a fun place to be in. Led to a massive blowup b/t us in August. Many a times did i exit a conversation. This type of behavior had an interesting effect on her and seemed to bring her back into balance somewhat. When i mentioned being trained above to control my emotion, etc, this was the battleground where it happened. Bleh, thinking about all that makes me a bit sick. Not a fun time.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

All in all, there are fine lines between being a pushover, being a strong man, and being a jacka$$. Don't be a pushover, but don't be a jacka$$. When things are outside of your boundaries, validate. Focus on your behavior to lead your family the best you can. When things cross your boundaries, defend yourself without retaliating or controlling. Just be strong. Let the water crash upon the rocks.

Agree on all of the above. I have a hard time finding that balance. To be honest, having lived in this messed up dynamic for so long, i have a hard time knowing what IS balanced at this point. I think that's a reason why i have a difficult time discerning when to stand firmly and when to validate. A work in progress. I love the thought of letting the water crash upon the rocks. Very relevant to all of this.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

As I look back at my sitch I have navigated through a lot of crap. Attempted suicide while she had primary parental time, a string of other men, black out drinking, and a lot of things that could've escalated the situation with me and XW very easily. When I was in tremendous emotional turmoil and grieving the loss of my marriage I was forced with horrible circumstances that forced me to make bold decisions which impacted the lives and well being of my children. I am pretty darn proud that I was able to be strong where I needed to and laid back when strength wasn't needed. As a result, despite her meltdown and insane behavior I have 50% parental time, happy and healthy children, and a professional working relationship with the mother of my children which allows us to cooperate a bit for everyone's best interest- especially the children's. No, my marriage wasn't saved, that was clearly not going to be a possibility. But I have become the man she was a fool to leave and I conducted myself in a way that was best for my family and will never trouble me about what I could've done differently. My life has never been better than it is today.

Wow. Just wow. I'm very sorry you've had to navigate your way through such a horrible situation my friend. You are correct that it takes a strong man to maintain his composure and successfully make it to the other side. You should be very proud of the stability you provided both your kids and, it sounds like, your XW during that. One of the things I've realized as I've ground through this (with everyone's immense help and support) is that things will be fine, regardless of the outcome. It makes me very happy to see that yourself, as well as others, have gotten through this and are thriving! Zues, appreciate your thoughts and support brother!

maybe carry an air horn. whenever she starts ripping into you and being disrespectful just give it a blast. keep blasting until she gives up being a b*tch. If neither of you can hear what is coming out of her mouth then it kind of never happened. You ask her to stop behaving badly, and you see it hasn't stopped. Now it's time for action to stop it. After a few times I think she will pause before saying something to pick at you. It may not be an elegant solution but you aren't yelling at her or anything like that. You are just making the garbage disappear in the sound waves.

I like that air horn idea :-)

Just dropping by to say hi and tell you what an awesome dad you are!! :-)

MV, I drive by Lowes on the way home every day and don't think I didn't seriously think of picking up that air horn today.

Hawk, appreciate the great thoughts! To be honest, I feel like I have been off a little in the dad department recently. Nothing big, but my focus hasn't been 100% there the past week or so. My ability to self diagnose this stuff now is so much better. This evening I've started to make sure my D gets me 100% every day. Love that kid!

Bed, gym, then IC after that. Curious to get his thoughts on the conversation with my W. thanks all!

LT,

I'm still a beginner in this but the changes I have made have been a big improvement. Re not having the answers, resist immediately disagreeing or feeling like you need to tell your W how faulty her thinking is. I know this is hard but you can do this! My DB coach told me that when you disagree with your W it makes her hold on to that position longer and more adamnently just to prove you wrong!

W: I think we should sell the house ASAP
LT: Hmmm...I need some time to think about that

W: Let's cash out our retirement plans and buy lottery tickets
LT: I hadn't thought of that; tell me more about what you're thinking

W: Let's buy a Disney time share
LT: That's an interesting idea; I don't know anything about them

And when you return to these topics at a later point, you can show that you listened to her and considered her opinion, try to find some areas where you can agree...

Gordie, it's so tough to do this when some of the answers seem so obvious. That said, I started doing it last night w/ some responses to my W around getting the house ready to sell. I have noticed that my W will dig in when i disagree, and she'll also take the opposite position should i offer an opinion. It's been frustrating in the past, but you may be right, maybe this is a spot for me to 180 from something that's not working.

The return to the topic should be a good opportunity to validate as well. Brushing up on those skills as it's obvious i still need more work there. Thanks so much for the thoughts Gordie! I'll share some trial-error w/ you as well as i grind through this.

Will journal a bit later.

Quick journaling. We have been doing projects around the house the past couple weeks to get it ready to sell. W tried painting our cabinets in the bathroom 3yrs ago but never finished them. They were not salvageable so I've been ripping them out and hanging new drywall the past couple weekends. W typically does the finesse work so her job is to mud, sand, and paint the walls. It's been two weeks and she hasn't gotten to it yet. D was home sick a couple days this week but still not sure why she hasn't gotten any of that done. Frustrating.

W is still hell bent on selling this place and renting. We have gotten away from the idea of renting a place, moving all our stuff in there, and selling this place empty. Meeting with the realtor fixed that. I still haven't given W feedback on the idea of renting yet though. Neighbors put their house up for sale today and when I told W she got annoyed that I hadn't gotten together my thoughts on renting yet. I told her I needed a couple more days to think about it. She got agitated and said she needs to know now where she will be living in a month. Really, though, at the earliest it'd be 3 months as we plan on listing mid march and it'll probably take 60 days at the earliest to close on any sale. Unsure why she feels so stressed by it.

I told W why don't we discuss it Sunday so I can think about it for a couple days. No answer. I ask her if she heard me and she huffs and says yes. I'm tired right now from a long week and my patience is wearing thin so I just exited the situation. To be honest though, this is crazy.

I've got Monday off for Presidents' Day. We meet with the realtor that morning to discuss details. Going to trench and put down the mulch this weekend. Need to call someone to fix our built in microwave, which has been broken for 2 years. We have another countertop one we have been using. W said she would handle scheduling to get it fixed 2 yrs ago (I contacted the company as it was under warranty, put in the claim, got the # for the contractor, etc) but she never did. Yesterday she brought up that the microwave needed to be fixed and that I had been the one who forgot and dropped the ball on getting it fixed two years ago. Frustrsting.

I kind of feel like I'm directionless right now. I'm wondering if I need to pull my focus back to myself somewhat. Maybe I've allowed it to slide too far towards my W and M again. W is wearing on me currently. I actually feel like an unpaid and unappreciated handyman at the moment. Similar to how W made me feel in 2013 when I was busting my a$$ doing yard and house stuff and all I caught from her was flack. That led to me loosening up on that rigor and drove more conflict in our M which probably spiraled to where we are now.

Venting a lot of frustration here, I know. I know the answer is to only do things bc I want to do them, not bc she expects me to. We have a month to go before we want to sell this house and I know it's going to take a focused grind to get done what is needed. I feel like I have no partner in this. She also apparently expects me to solve the issue of finding this rental.

I need to get some sleep, recharge, and approach this rationally tomorrow. There's no plan yet, so I'll need to put that together and dole out responsibilities knowing she refuses to work with me. Frustrating.

If you want to sell do what you think needs to be done. Take charge and get it done. Nothing wrong with that. Stay out of the blame game about who is supposed to do what. It's always easier to ask forgiveness than for permission.

If you don't want to rent then you probably don't need to spend any time on finding a rental. If you want to buy another place then focus on that instead. She can find the rental if that's what she wants. Then you can compare the pros and cons of each.

Ok. Quick journaling. Thanks for the thoughts MV. Helped me frame things in my brain. Easy to get intertwined with W at times.

Saturday I had a meetup for a golf league I joined. Good guys. Looking forward to that starting in April. Hung out with D all morning. Trenched the beds in the yard to get ready for putting down mulch. Hung out with D that evening too. Spent a few hours finishing our taxes until late in the evening.

Sunday I spent the morning installing a closet shelving system W had gotten in Ds closet. When we first moved in we painted the inside of her closet as an underwater scene. She loved that. W painted over it this week to get it back to normal. Made me fairly sad to see it gone. Hung the shelving unit and put the door back up to finish it off. D had a friend over late in the day so I used that time to finish up the yard stuff.

Today, realtor over This morning to discuss selling house. After that I go get trim to put up in one of our rooms. D has a friend over and they go play outside. I sit down with W and ask if she'd like to discuss rent vs buy. W says there is no way she'd ever buy another house with me. She says after buying two houses and me not listening to her wants on either, plus the fact that I never lived up to the promises I made on doing house stuff, she won't buy another house. She says we should rent for a year. She says we have too much crap and clutter anyway that we don't use and we need to downsize. I tell her I would like to buy a house if we find one we like. She says she will not go house shopping with me because she will not have a conversation with me. She asks me why I'm acting like everything is all fine. I tell her that from talking to her last weekend I know everything is not fine. I'd like to rebuild a friendship with her. I'm not ok with any of us being unhappy. She says I don't have the right to be worried about her happiness. She says I keep saying things like I hear you and I understand but I never listen to her and never have. She's over it.

She says we need to rent a place and separate ourselves from each other within it. I tell her that I am no longer ok with us living separate lives. The situation as it is is not sustainable. She says she knows that. She says that when she told me in November that I'd won she did that for Ds happiness. She did that bc she was not going to put D through a long drawn out court battle over custody. She said that she came to the realization that she'd suffered through this for ten years, what's another ten. This is her life now.

I tell her I'm sorry that you had to live and feel like that. She tells me I have no right to tell her that. She told me for years that she was unhappy and I didn't do anything. She said since 2015 she's been telling me we have issues and I didn't listen or change. She tells me that D is also not happy with me. D doesn't treat me like a kid would treat their dad. It kills W to see it. No other kid says �we don't care� when I go to leave somewhere. Pretty soon, W says, D will be old enough to not put up with my sh:t and will just tell me to f$ck off. W also says that I follow D around the house and am constantly in her space. D is independent and what I'm doing will mess her up.

I again tell her that this situation is not sustainable. She says if I want to buy a house then I can but it will be without them. She says we can sell the house and rent two places. She then tells me to take today and tonight and let her know by end of day what I choose. I tell her that if we rent a place together I'm not ok with us leading separate existences. She tells me that when she told me this is as good as it gets she meant it. We will never be partners in anything and never were. I tell her that I don't need the time to decide, we are selling very quickly and short term it sounds like we will need to rent a place. However we still need to decide what is going on with us. W tells me that doesn't matter right now. The pressing issue is the house. Financially, she says, the decision makes sense. The house it too big, costs too much, and she never wanted it. Also with the economy the way it is we need to get out now.

I tell her that I can see this is stressful for you. Would it help to sit down and make a list together of things we need to do to get the house ready later? She says no, she will not sit down with me and do that. She says that she knows I won't do stuff anyway. I respond back with I feel like I have been working nonstop on the house since 3 weeks ago when we made the decision to sell. She says that's not what she said. I tell her that's just how I feel. She says she knows I've been working non stop, and so has she. She sits there for a minute and says �don't you already have a list?� I tell her it's only of things I believe we need to do. She says why don't we just use that. I tell her I will grab it and we can discuss. I go get it then we discuss the items on there and go through room by room what needs to be done. We discuss getting a storage unit. We discuss moving stuff to the garage in bins. She says she will not put furniture in a dirty storage unit. We end the conversation and I go to start working on cleaning out the garage. She asks if I can replace the two light fixtures outside first. (Front porch and back porch). I say sure and go to work. W helps me take down bathroom mirrors, as "I never took them down so that's why she hasn't sanded and painted the drywall I hung the past two weekends". I didn't point out that it was her putting it off that kept me from getting it done. Also, the mirrors are not in the way for any of the prep work that needs to be done. Then I rehang Ds closet door. Play with D for an hour before dinner. Grill my dinner. Hang trim on the kitchen island while they finish dinner. Then play with D for 45 minutes before bed.

Feel like I'm in W enforced limbo and W is trying to force me into making the decision to end this. She seems to be trying to make things so unfriendly and unhappy that my position becomes untenable. Not sure if that's the case but it sure seems that way.

I feel like a poorly treated handyman....

Somewhat frustrated by this. W sat around all day and did nothing with regards to getting the house ready to sell. if I don't do the work then it won't get done. But, I never do any work on the house, at least per W. such a strange place I'm at....

LT -- wow. Sounds really difficult. Makes me think of the first few months after my BD when my W wouldn't even make eye contact. I'm relieved to be far past it, now at an amicable place.

Your W obviously has a ton of negative feelings about you, and she believes you're not a very good Dad. And yet she doesn't want to get a divorce for the sake of your daughter. She wants to stay in this angry, in-house-separation with someone she despises.

Not to go too far in trying to mind-read, but ... can you understand WHY she's stuck in this weird middle ground? Why can't she either attempt to reconcile with you or leave the marriage? Is she afraid of being divorced?

Yeah, it's almost like we've never progressed from that point FG. We've had quiet times where the resentment wasn't outright, but it's probably just been bubbling under the surface.

She seems to have nothing but negative feelings for me at this point. I find myself wondering if she feels like I'm her jailer now, keeping her from freedom and limiting her options to just this one. She doesn't seem to realize that she also has a choice. I think the fact that I'm unwilling to do less than 50/50 with my D is what is keeping her from making that choice. I'm not sure why she ever thought I wouldn't want 50/50 w/ D. Without her being able to execute an exit that ends in her perfect view of things, she seems unwilling to make that choice. But if she's staying, she also is unwilling to even attempt any sort of R. Unsure where to go from here.

I don't think she's afraid of being D. I believe that she thinks it solves all her issues. It certainly allows her to scapegoat me for everything that's been wrong. I've listened to her, especially since we had the house conversation 1.5 weeks ago, ascribe alot of the work that's been done on the house to her efforts. Very specific stuff that I know I did, she now says she did it all, alone. I've not pointed this out to her, as I know it's not constructive, but it does make me question what's going on inside her head with "our story".

I feel like i know why she can't exit, but i've no clue why she won't attempt to R. Best guess is there's just too much resentment for her to overcome. Realistically, it may be that if she warms up and stops making me the scapegoat, she's then forced to face her own issues. Mind reading, but all i've got to work with currently. Bleh...

LT, sounds rough. Your stitch has just been rough and doesn�t seem to be going anywhere.
Hang in there man, something�s gotta give.

Thanks cheesyt. Easy to get lost in this thing at times. Feel a little like a compass without a needle currently. Probably highlights i need to put my focus back on myself and my D. Was just lurking in your thread as well. Sorry for the stuff you're going through as well. Keep your chin up and hang in too. I've no doubt we'll get through this!

I think we are all in the same boat...me a little further along...LT I don't know how you don't lose your cool!!! I want to yell at your W through the screen!!!! :-)

Hang in there friends!

LT-- you do indeed seem stuck. What does your IC advise to get out of this purgatory? Have you tried DB coaches (sorry if I forgot). What do they advise? This doesn't sound like a sustainable situation to me. At some point you have to take into account what it's doing to your daughter's emotional health, as well as your own. I was stuck at one point too, and my IC recommended that I take charge of my fate by proposing a timeline to my W, i.e., "if we are unable to resolve our differences, let's divorce by next summer." My IC thought that my W would actually find that kind of take-charge leadership refreshing, and would prompt her to take a fresh new look at her own feelings. Ultimately I didn't have to do that because certain circumstances outside of our control dictated a pause to our D and then once that crisis was over my W went ahead and filed.

Anyway, I feel for you, man. You're only 37. Not to minimize your situation at all -- I feel like we've both been through hell -- but that's a relatively young age. You have a lot to look forward to, with or without your current wife. I wish you a healthy future.

Some quick journaling. Realized this morning that I'd forgotten to pickup some tile from Lowe's that we need to finish up our MBR bathroom remodel. Sent W this note:

Me: "Good morning <insert my nickname for W here>. When are the guys coming to do our grout? The tile had slipped my mind."

W: "WTF? Stop calling me that."

W: "Today. That's why I told you twice last weekend to pick up the tile. I will fix it myself. I also told you last night when D was getting ready for bed."

Me: "Will head out of here for a few, grab some tile, and drop them off. Need to get my wallet anyway."

W: "It's too late I would rather you did not"

W then called and said she'd been telling me for 3 weeks that this needed to be done. I listened, let her vent, and offered that I had thought she was having the grout people install the tile. She said, no, that was never the plan and she was going to put it in. I said that's a large project, she said no it's not and hung up. First, we didn't know about the missing tile until we ripped out the vanity 1.5 weeks ago. Second, she did tell me that the grout guys were putting the tile in. At this point, I'm not as open to questioning my remembrance of things as I remember this quite clearly.

Had to get my wallet, as I needed my ID for something today, so swung by the house. Got to say hi to D before school, which was a great bonus.

When D was upstairs brushing her teeth, I told W "I dropped the ball on the tile. I'm sorry for not getting it. This is going to be a big project" and honestly meant it. It had been on my list of things to do, but somehow it'd slipped off. No excuses, took ownership.

W was obviously perturbed by my forgetting and said: "Big picture, this is the main problem. You never do what you say you're going to do. You've done this 2 to 3 times now in the past few weeks." Then she went into not wanting to talk about it right now bc she didn't want to yell in front of D and then she walked off.

Thought that was useful feedback from her. I'd known that was an issue in the past, but did not believe it to still be. Could be that she's just grasping this opportunity to berate me. I don't have a clue what other 1 or 2 times I've forgotten something I said I'd do in the past few weeks though. I'm fairly proficient at creating task lists now, as I've worked hard to fix this aspect of my issues.

This comment has forced me to do some introspection though. There ARE two things I've said I'd do throughout this that I have not. One is that I told her last month I was coming up w/ a budget, but so far I've not found time to put pen to paper. The second is that I told her I'd only go back into our M if she agree to do MC with the goal of working on bettering our M. The first is easily fixable. I'm going to find time this week to put that together.

The second, however, is more nuanced. She wanted to go back to the MC from before. That was a disaster and she was not a friend of our M. I've also been putting this off bc I don't believe anything comes of it so long as she's unwilling (as she is telling me now) to work on our M. I think the way to address this is to sit her down and tell her exactly that, or to find a new MC and go. Probably leaning towards telling her why I have yet to find an MC and get her feedback.

Regardless, W seems like she's at a point where she's as un-invested in bettering this thing as she's ever been. IC had offered that w/ me challenging her w/ the "this situation is not sustainable" and "I can see you are unhappy, as am I" type of dialogue the reaction would be her pushing me further away. Almost as a defense mechanism. Does not feel like a defense mechanism as I live the spew, however, but maybe I'm just too deep into this thing. Really just feels like pure hatred coming from her. I think the thing that bothers me the most is she's not even willing to invest the smallest bit of effort in this to see where it goes.

So, none of this is unexpected. Trying to keep an unbiased third person view of things, but it's tough. Have my IC again tomorrow, so his take will be interesting.

FG, thank you brother. It's funny, but 37 seems so old to me at this point! But you're right, we both have many years ahead of us to thrive after this thing.

IC has recommended turning up the heat on the situation to see how it moves. I agree with him and that's what I've been leveraging the house conversation to do. Effectively force a dialogue on getting my thoughts out there about how we can't do this forever. The path it seems to be progressing down is, however, the one that ends with us further apart. We've also discussed a timeline, but haven't quite gotten that far yet. I have asked her in conversation, "what happens when our 1yr rental is up?" and haven't gotten any response to it.

My IC, also thinks that taking charge of the situation may help my W as I've never been that forceful w/ her in the past. He thinks it'd help w/ her anxiety levels, as it'd make me an ally against it. One comment she's said was "I need to know where I'm going to be living in a month" when I haven't responded quickly enough to the rent/own question. Her anxiety, I would believe, is driving that questioning.

FG, I think we both have a healthy and happy future on the horizon. It's just getting through this damn storm right now. Tough to see your way out, but when the clouds part and the skies clear it's got to be refreshing. I know that'll come for us at some point, but being where we are currently sure does suck.

Hang in there brother! You'll be good, your kids will be good, I know it!

Hawk, there was a commercial awhile back. There's a football referee and he's being berated on the sidelines by a coach and he just is staring off into space, cool as a cucumber. The announcer is saying, "wow folks, I don't know how he can take this beating!". Then it cuts to the ref at home, sitting on the couch, eating doritos (i think) and watching tv. Same calm/composed look on his face. the camera zooms out and you see his wife berating him for something and he's just tuning it out.

Long story short, I feel like that's the training I'm getting here. Leveraging my work experience to help as well. But man is it hard at times. Sometimes you just feel like you need to fire back, but it never seems to help things, it only seems to push her further away. Stay strong Hawk and thank you for the comments!

Hello lt0402,

The good news is that you know how to take care of these repairs and upgrades!

You have worked with a DB Coach previously, right? It sounds like it is time to reconnect with your coach so you can regroup based on your current situation.

Please give me a call at 303-444-7004 and we can look at the schedule.

Cristy

Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

There is only one way to rebuild trust. Do what you say you will do. Every time, no excuses, no partially doing it. Just keep your word 100%. So be careful to only commit to what you will do. And be mindful that anything less until the relationship is on good footing puts you back at square one no matter how far you've come.

My opinions are just that, they are not necessarily DB. But I would do two things.

First, I would handle myself beyond reproach. If she asks you not to call her a nickname, don't do it. If you say you are going to do something, do it. If you aren't sure you can keep a commitment, don't make it. Telling her something you think she wants to hear won't change her feelings towards you, she'll be skeptical you won't do it and then angry when you fall through. Bottom line, run a tight darn ship. She'll still spew, but at least then you'll know you don't deserve it and she deep down might as well.

Secondly, stop with the R talks. I hear your IC, I just don't agree. What's the point of having an R talk about things not being sustainable? This is more words, not actions. She knows you don't like things how they are, she obviously doesn't give a hoot. So what happens after you have your R talk about things not being sustainable, what happens when you have your talk about not wanting to go to marital counseling unless conditions are met she's not willing to meet? What then? If you won't do anything differently anyway there is no point as she's just going to blow you off and you're going to look weak. If you WILL take different action such as filing or changing your behvior, just go ahead and file or change your darn behavior! Speak to her with actions, not words, and don't take those actions until you are doing them for you, not to try to control her.

It's not always easy, but it sure looks clear to me. Live in a way that you would if you knew she wasn't coming back to the marriage. Hopefully the man you'd choose to be would still be one that could attract her back and maybe there is a new R between you two in the future. But putting your eggs in that basket or trying to steer her in that direction won't work. Time to move forward and not look back to see if she's following. That doesn't necessarily mean filing, although it might. It doesn't mean buying a new place necessarily, although it might. It just means moving forward with your life. Your life isn't your legal status or where you live. Your live is how you live it.

LT

First, 37 ... DUDE that is YOUNG!!! I wasn't even married by then. You've got a whole life ahead of you. OK, maybe not whole, but more than half!

I agree w/ much of what Zues wrote. Maybe anxiety is a big deal w/ your wife but so is her anger. I think you provoke her anger by being overly friendly. I think it makes her feel like you're not really seeing where she is emotionally. It makes her feel disrespected and disregarded and not heard. I would honor her wish to have emotional space from you.

About the house -- it doesn't seem all that crazy to me to rent when you're teetering on divorce. I suggest you just give her what she wants: OK, let's find a good rental and sell our house.

It just feels to me like you're trying really hard to save the marriage and it's coming across too obviously and strongly to your wife. I think it feels like more than pursuit to your wife, it feels suffocating.

This is where the in-house separation always seems to break down. When the LBS tries the gentler, 180-driven, demonstration of positive changes DB approach, the physical proximity, breathing the same air, sharing toilets, etc. makes it all feel like pursuit to the spouse who thinks she's done. The other option is going dark, but you can't really pull that off because you're still under the same roof (so you're never missed), and you don't want to role model some of that distancing you'd otherwise implement in front of your child, because the child loves your spouse, too. So then the LBS goes back to cordial, friendly, trying to demonstrate growth and change, and they feel smothered again. And the more they feel smothered, the further they move away emotionally, the connection frays further and further, resentment piles up, and the downward momentum accelerates and, eventually, down the drain it all goes.

LT -- at this point, I would keep the focus on what is best for LT and D, leave W out of that equation, really listen to what the answer to that question is, and make that happen. What is the answer to that question?

Hey all, sorry I've been absent the past few days. Getting the house prepped to sell + work have been sucking down my time. Some quick journaling and will respond a little later to everyone.

Met with IC on Friday morning. We talked through the previous conversation I'd had w/ my W where she mentioned that when she told me she was staying in November (and that I'd won) she was doing that for my Ds sake. I also caught him up on the Ws desire to rent instead of purchase a new home, as well as the speed with which the house selling is progressing.

So, IC took the conversation in a different direction at that point. IC asked had I thought about using the move as a kickoff point for physically S from my W. Took me by surprise as my ICs always been one to continue the fight for the M. He told me that normally he would never recommend something like this, but if it were him he thinks he'd have a hard time living like this into perpetuity. He highlighted that with me getting the information from my W as far as her motives for staying in the M, I now know where I stand with her.

We talked through it a bit and he mentioned that the recent conversations have dislodged the stickiness a bit. If I were to choose to pursue the S path w/ the move, the window would be small for it. I told him I needed to take it away and think through it as that option hadn't even crossed my mind.

So, I've been doing a lot of thinking on this. I keep coming back to my D and the cut in time I'd be able to spend with her. I keep coming back to the fact that I'm not sure I want to quit my M. I do know that I don't want to continue living in my M the way it is though. So now I kind of feel stuck a bit. W shows no willingness to warm up in the least. Even when she seems to let her guard down and there's some small, tiny connection, it's always followed by something very cold. Almost like she's realized her mistake and is resetting things back to how she wants them.

I'm not saying I'm ready to give up, but the question has definitely gotten me thinking. I wonder when is the time to quit. When is the time to say enough is enough, let's rip apart ours and Ds lives and call this thing what it is. None of the 3 of us deserve to be unhappy, so at some point we need to part ways so W can pursue whatever it is that would make her happy.

On the surface, W seems like a mess. We did dinner out two nights last week as our kitchen is a mess. Finally was able to have a 10 minute conversation w/ W. It was about some big changes occurring to the structure of the company and division I work for. W used to work in a similar role, so she's always been good for input on these things. We had a nice conversation and I let her do most of the talking as I pretty much just listened and asked her opinion. The strange part was that the no eye contact thing was still there for all 10 minutes. Pretty much she looked everywhere but me. I'd thought we'd progressed past that, but I guess not.

We've been working, as a team, on a list of stuff to do to get the house ready to sell. That's been sucking down a ton of my time as we're only 2 weeks out now. Made time for D and I last night by leaving work 45 minutes early and we went out for an hour and hunted pokemon before dark. extremely focused on not allowing my time (especially the quality of it) with D to degrade at all. D is having some struggles with her friends at school, in that she feels disincluded at times. It's some mix of she doesn't always want to do what they do and I think some girl vs girl dynamics she's not used to. Trying to be there at home to help build that confidence and give her an ear in addition to my W. Love that kid.

Stuck a bit, but continuing to grind through things in my head. I don't believe I'm ready to throw in the towel yet, but the fact it's still residing in my brain probably points to it as a valid option at some point. Who knows.

Cristy, thank you for the reminder, as always!

Originally Posted By: mvgfwd2

MV, you are 100% spot on. I'd been very careful about this, but had let my guard down. W latched onto that failure and took advantage of it. Looking at other relationships I have, it's easy to see how most of them would result in "no worries, we'll figure it out", instead of the instant resentment that W fires back at me.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

First, I would handle myself beyond reproach. If she asks you not to call her a nickname, don't do it. If you say you are going to do something, do it. If you aren't sure you can keep a commitment, don't make it. Telling her something you think she wants to hear won't change her feelings towards you, she'll be skeptical you won't do it and then angry when you fall through. Bottom line, run a tight darn ship. She'll still spew, but at least then you'll know you don't deserve it and she deep down might as well.

Words to live by Zues. The part I struggle with is at times mistakes are going to happen, regardless of how carefully I plan/monitor things. Not using it as an excuse, just a realization that with all these balls up in the air, sometimes things are going to drop. It's highly frustrating that there's no benefit of the doubt that comes from W. I get it though and will/am striving for it. I strive to be a man of my word and will continue to do so.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

Secondly, stop with the R talks. I hear your IC, I just don't agree. What's the point of having an R talk about things not being sustainable? This is more words, not actions. She knows you don't like things how they are, she obviously doesn't give a hoot. So what happens after you have your R talk about things not being sustainable, what happens when you have your talk about not wanting to go to marital counseling unless conditions are met she's not willing to meet? What then? If you won't do anything differently anyway there is no point as she's just going to blow you off and you're going to look weak. If you WILL take different action such as filing or changing your behvior, just go ahead and file or change your darn behavior! Speak to her with actions, not words, and don't take those actions until you are doing them for you, not to try to control her.

Yes. I've gotten the feedback I was looking for from the R discussion. I felt like my feelings about the situation needed to be heard. Probably could have done it w/ a shorter dialogue, but those things always seem to draw themselves out. No more R discussions currently planned. Just the reaction/pushing away from my W post that discussion was brutal. All actions from here on out. Currently those actions are getting the house ready to sell as I said I would plus keeping up my R with my D even with the house and work stuff piling up. Not a balance I've been able to do in the past. But one that I damn well will do now.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

It's not always easy, but it sure looks clear to me. Live in a way that you would if you knew she wasn't coming back to the marriage. Hopefully the man you'd choose to be would still be one that could attract her back and maybe there is a new R between you two in the future. But putting your eggs in that basket or trying to steer her in that direction won't work. Time to move forward and not look back to see if she's following. That doesn't necessarily mean filing, although it might. It doesn't mean buying a new place necessarily, although it might. It just means moving forward with your life. Your life isn't your legal status or where you live. Your live is how you live it.

To be honest, I don't really care if the man I choose to be wins my W back. In the end, the person I am choosing to be is for myself and not her. An excellent by product would be the salvation of my M, but I agree that it cannot be my goal. I want to be who I am because it makes ME happy. I want to be who I am because it provides a great example to my D. I want to be a dad who his child can come to in times of crisis and joy. So many things that I want to be, but in the end it's all about taking pride in who I am, not who W wants me to be. Comes back to the thought that maybe we just M the wrong people.

FG and JR, have to hop to a meeting. Sorry on the no response, but will post a little later. Thanks to everyone for all of the thoughts and support, as always you are all my lighthouse in this.

'To be honest, I don't really care if the man I choose to be wins my W back. In the end, the person I am choosing to be is for myself and not her. An excellent by product would be the salvation of my M, but I agree that it cannot be my goal. I want to be who I am because it makes ME happy. I want to be who I am because it provides a great example to my D. I want to be a dad who his child can come to in times of crisis and joy. So many things that I want to be, but in the end it's all about taking pride in who I am, not who W wants me to be. Comes back to the thought that maybe we just M the wrong people"

I am glad that you realize that you are doing this for yourself and not to win your W back. You and your D deserve to be happy and I think you taking pride in yourself is a great example for your D. I don't know what to say about your IC's advice, I guess you will know if and when you would be ready to separate, but you are right, all 3 of you deserve to be happy.

Hang in there LT

Quote:

I'm not saying I'm ready to give up, but the question has definitely gotten me thinking. I wonder when is the time to quit. When is the time to say enough is enough, let's rip apart ours and Ds lives and call this thing what it is. None of the 3 of us deserve to be unhappy, so at some point we need to part ways so W can pursue whatever it is that would make her happy.

You're doing lots of good stuff lt.

Two thoughts on this part of your post.

First, you talk a lot about being happy, being unhappy, letting W pursue what makes her happy, etc. I'll just say this- happiness is a horrible, horrible compass to guide through marital difficulty. If everyone used personal happiness as a guide, the divorce rate in this country would be awful. Oh wait, they do and it is. You get my drift. Marriage is about staying committed for better OR WORSE. If you stray from that formula then you won't grow old together.

Secondly, in regards to 'giving up', I think you should 'move forward'. Let me ask this- what's the difference between the two? What would you do differently if you gave up versus if you moved forward?

I think if you're detaching and moving forward with your own life that is perfect. All "Giving Up" means is that you are telling yourself you are no longer interested in R. Which is kind of absurd because should WAW call you up in 6 months and beg for a 2nd chance who knows where she'll be, where you'll be. When people talk this way what I really here is "It hurts me too much for me to hold out hope of R and it keeps me attached so I will convince myself I don't want that anymore". That doesn't really work because it just isn't possible to tell your emotions to quit existing. But MOVING FORWARD does work. This is where you live as though you don't ever expect your WAS to turn around...but you do so WITHOUT BURNING BRIDGES.

For example, you may get your own place, you may get a S agreement to protect your finances, you may work out a parental schedule, you may start doing more things on your own, detaching, GAL, and 180s for YOU. But you don't burn bridges, you don't start dating other people, you don't drop your 180s or exhibit punishing behavior to get WAS back and show them you don't give a $hit anymore, you don't do something that would destroy the chances of R. You simply accept it probably isn't in the cards and move forward focused on you.

To me this was my biggest breakthrough in DBing. I moved forward, rebuilt my life, and guess what? My XW never looked back. So to your point I'm VERY glad I didn't cling to the hope of R for another 2 years. That said, I gave my marriage every opportunity, preserved a reasonably civil co-parenting relationship with XW that benefits the children and myself, and I feel great about the person I was. I'll never have doubts about 'would my marriage have worked if I had done x or y', etc. And I set a good example for my children about how to lead through a horrible situation.

Hope this helps, keep posting and hang in.

Originally Posted By: Zues126

But MOVING FORWARD does work. This is where you live as though you don't ever expect your WAS to turn around...but you do so WITHOUT BURNING BRIDGES.

For example, you may get your own place, you may get a S agreement to protect your finances, you may work out a parental schedule, you may start doing more things on your own, detaching, GAL, and 180s for YOU. But you don't burn bridges, you don't start dating other people, you don't drop your 180s or exhibit punishing behavior to get WAS back and show them you don't give a $hit anymore, you don't do something that would destroy the chances of R. You simply accept it probably isn't in the cards and move forward focused on you.

This is one of the best summaries of what we should do that I've seen. Im printing it out and reading it each morning.

Thanks zeus!

How are things going LT???

Hope you're well, LT.

Hey all,

Sorry I've not been here the past two weeks. We have been working to get the house ready to go on the market and every second of my day has been spent on that, work, or focused on D9. I feel so exhausted, but am in ok spirits.

So, the house just hit MLS an hour ago. A bunch of views already and I think it will sell fairly quick. W had the reigns of finding us a rental but she has not so far. She has sent me a few links but not responded to my comments on them. So this past weekend I asked her about it and she got very defensive. Said that I was the one who needed to decide what to do. So yesterday I told her I'd like to discuss when I got home via text:

Me: "Why don't we talk about rentals tomorrow. Also, you're welcome to join us for dinner friday evening, we could get someone to watch D" -- some friends from work whom I'm going out with

W: "Why would I want to do that? Seriously. I'm not going out to dinner with you. Why do you keep acting like everything is fine and we're just going to magically start doing stuff together? Do you have any idea how screwed up that is? We haven't done anything together in almost ten years. What is your rationale for ignoring that completely and asking me to go to a work function? I've never been to one before why would you ask me now? I'm asking a serious question because this makes zero sense. Is there anything in that closet that still needs to come out? We need it cleaned out for the showings"

Me: Not a work function, just dinner with some friends here at work. Thought you may like to get out for a bit. Am very aware everything is not fine. Closet stuff is take care of"

So I come home, eat dinner with W and D, hang out with D for a bit then take the last closet stuff to storage. When I get home, there's a friction in the air and D seems upset with me. We go through the meds and bedtime routine. When I go into Ds room she won't talk to me. I ask what's wrong, no answer. I ask if she wants to talk about anything, no answer. I ask if she'd like to talk later no answer. So I tuck her in, tell her we can talk whenever she's ready, and then go down to talk to W.

W gruffly asks what I want to talk about. I ask her what she's thinking on the rental. She asks what do I mean. I ask her how the search is coming. She tells me she has not been searching because she was waiting for me to come back to her with what I want to do. I tell her I'd thought she was looking for places. She says she wont look for places because I will just find something wrong with every place she picks and shoot it down. I then tell her that I'm on board with her making the decision on where we are going to live. I'm also willing to look at whatever she may want me to and give feedback on anything. (W has said that I ignored her input on every housing decision so I've taken the tact of letting her drive this. Add to that her desire to rent and mine to buy and it only seems like the bed t way to proceed).

W then asks why I'm acting as though everything is fine. She says that's the worst part of all this. I again tell her that I'm quite aware everything is not fine but we need a place to live. She asks why we are doing this. Why are we looking for a place together. That I'm mistaken if I think we will be living together 10yrs from now. That we will never be partners or be a team and we never have been either of those things.

W then says I've really F'ed up with D again. She starts to tell me what happened but then stops and says, no, I can't tell you without asking D if it's ok. I tell W, yes, D seemed upset with me and I'll discuss it with D tomorrow. W then says again how much I messed up and how it's more of the same. I tell W that, like any relationship, I'll discuss and work it out with D directly once she's ready to discuss. W then says that D will never tell me how she's really feeling or what's really wrong.

W then asks why we all need to be miserable living like this. That I should remember that one of the miserable people is my D. I say that I've said before I'm not ok with us living this way. I tell her that we have the house on the market and it will probably sell quickly. The most basic thing we need is a place to live. W says fine, we will just all be miserable until one of us dies.

Silence for a bit then I say, again, I recognize everything is not fine but we need a place to live. W huffs and says fine, I'll take care of it and I heard you the first 3 times. I say goodnight, get up, and go to bed.

So, we have had a cordial dialogue as we worked as a team (wow...) getting the house ready. We literally worked non stop for 3 weeks on stuff. Now it appears that my W seems to have thought getting the house on the mkt would somehow force me out of the picture. That my previous stance of she's free to go, but I won't relinquish more than 50% of my time with D would change. I'm frustrated bc this all makes no sense to me. We have removed an anchor (the house) from the equation but it still doesn't change my stance on things.

I almost feel like my W views me as her jailer. That I'm forcibly keeping her here against her will. She doesn't seem to recognize that dealing with her is horrible either, as she thinks I'm unphased by her constant crap. If she wants to go, I won't stop her. We've talked assets and everything is fair. I don't think 50/50 time with our D is unfair either, but that appears to be keeping W hanging around as she wants Ds time 95% of the time. I want to R this M but W seems adamant about not even attempting that. It's admirable, I guess, that W is staying for Ds sake (though I don't know why she thinks D would suffer with me as a single dad). But it's way off base.

That said, I do need to talk to D and see why she's upset. I'm supposed to go to dinner with friends tomorrow evening but maybe I'll bail and come home to talk to D. D was happy to see me when I got home, but somehow while I was packing the closet stuff and gone at the storage unit she became upset with me in those 40 minutes.

None of this makes sense but I'll work through it. Priority is D. W is secondary at the moment.

I did tell my IC, in reference to his question about using the move to S, that I AM ready to give up, but I am CHOOSING not to give up right now. All, I feel so tired and mired in this situation here. Still grinding, but it has become much more difficult to push this M forward by myself.

Again, I apologize for my absence. I'll follow up with everyone's situations tomorrow and respond to the comments while I was gone as well. Thank you all for your thoughts and support as always.

Clearly to me your W has poisoned your D's mind concerning you. I also feel there is more going on in the background on the rental house than you are aware. Like she is looking for a house for her and D and not you. Selling the house may be just a tact to separate you from D. If there isn't a home then the question of who moves out is moot. Everyone is moving out. So the only question is where is everyone moving to. You may want to consult a lawyer about the different ways this could play out and how to react.

Some of your post just has my spidey sense tingling that you are being setup.

MV I agree. I've bounced it all of the L weeks ago. Both the sale of the house, the potential purchase of another, and now the renting idea. L had no qualms on the rental piece and actually thought it prudent with the situation where it is. I've been finding my mind wandering in the same direction as you have. Based on Ws reactions it seems like she's expecting something to trigger when the house is sold. I'm unsure. I also can't shake that feeling though.

D just got the flu today. Stayed home all day. A couple showings so W and D had to leave the house. Left work early and bailed on my dinner tonight to see D. Got her a little surprise and she was happy to see me at home. Still unsure why she was upset last night though. Poor kid

Mystery solved. spent this morning with D hanging out on the couch bc she has the flu. W out getting stuff for the house. Talked to D about thurs night and she told me that I'd told her I'd hang out with her after dinner. When she got done taking a shower after dinner I was out at the storage unit dropping stuff off.

So I apologized, told her I understood why she was mad, and told her that she's always welcome to tell me stuff like that whenever she is ready. I asked if we were good, she said yes, and we had a fun time all morning.

Now, I did hang out for a bit after dinner, but when she went to take a shower I left to get that done before bed. Told both her and W I was leaving. So I'm wondering if W fueled that, but who knows. Regardless, I feel very comfortable handling these things direct with D. W seems to think I'm helpless here and need her help with them. Totally not true.

One side effect of this whole thing is I can recognize different feelings and how to respond to them a lot better now. Looking back it seems like the extreme emotions just got buried and pushed through. It did about break my heart he other night when D ignored me, though I didn't show it. I care so much for the kid and the thought of less time with her [censored].

Realistically though, there doesn't seem to be hope for my situation. I do realize that. W needs to let her guard down and be open to it, but it's just not something I see happening. So now we are really stuck. I almost wonder if my Ws plan is to force me to end this situation. Who knows. I'll continue to do what I believe to be right and see where t takes us.

Right now is the perfect storm for W though. House on the market. I just got my annual bonus. Our bank account will be at its fullest if we do sell the house. If she is looking for the right financial time to exit this is it. One thing I have done, in September, as well as this week, was finish up Ds college fund. Out of reach of both W and I now. So I know D is setup should she choose to go to college. Makes me more comfortable to know that she won't need to scramble for funds when we get there.

Have someone doing a showing of the house right now. D and W waiting while I make a trip to take trash to the dump. Spending the rest of the day with D. Looking forward to the downtime with her.

D and I are doing much better after the "crisis" last week. Poor kid had the flu so we spent the weekend being lazy. Open House for our place on Sunday so we had to vacate. Didn't want to take D to relatives house so we camped out in the car for two hours.

W wanted to me to go somewhere else, instead of the car w/ D and her, but I told her no, I'd like to be with D and I'd be happy to stay with D if W wanted to do something. Really was wanting to spend time w/ D after having a long week at work.

D also followed it up (she didn't hear Ws and my conversation) saying that she really wanted me to hang out during the open house. So D and I joked and played iPad together in the back of the car. Close enough to a place with Wifi so we "borrowed" that and had a good time together. W went to go get coffee and offered to bring me some, then about 10 minutes in she complained how the smell of my coffee made her want to barf. Insanity. She's "nice" when she needs something, but rude brutal to be around the rest of the time.

W has been nothing but angry the past few days. I think it's from the stress of selling our place + D being sick. As far as I know, she has yet to find a rental for us. Starting to think I'll need to come up w/ a backup plan just in case.

Asked W last night what time a showing was today for our house. She responded back with a snide comment, to which I said "Excuse Me?" and then I got an answer, followed by a mumbled, "I've said it like 3 times". The mood wears on me, but still grinding through it and trying not to let it affect me. Some success, but tough to bite my tongue at times and I push back.

W is back to drinking every evening and has been for about a month. She's also sleeping on the couch until 5am each morning, and then coming up to bed. Been doing that for about the same amount of time. Even the nights D has slept in our bed, she keeps that routine. Not sure what to make of all that.

Still going but a lot of uncertainty currently. Seems to be par for the course.

Hey L T,

I thought I had a lot of patience.... I can see why that attitude is wearing on you. Glad that you got things patched up with your D! Maybe you need to take a few days and play some golf so that you are doing something for you!! :-). I'll meet u and we can play for a round of beers. Hahah

Just wanted to offer my support and encouragement. Idk what my cowboys are doing, we have no defense left. Could be interesting. Haha

Originally Posted By: lt0402

Still going but a lot of uncertainty currently. Seems to be par for the course.

Keep it up. Its tough. The patience is worth it for the kids.

^What he said. Be the rock for your kid. It will sorely be needed.

Hawk, that's done! You'd have to give me some strokes though, I'm pretty rusty after all this time off! Appreciate your support as always. Your Cowboys look set on offense if they can keep their OL healthy. Dak was a good surprise for ya'll this year. Elliott is a beast, but seems like he may have some off-field issues. Maybe ya'll should trade him to my Skins!

Kevin, appreciated bud. Yeah, I'm driving forward for the sake of my D. W is a great mother, but D being subject to her influence 95% of the time (W's parenting plan) would not be good for her mental health. Appreciated bud!

Jeep, trying to be brother. The waves keep getting more hard hitting though, but still standing. You hang in there as well. Reminded of a quote someone sent me "tough times don't last, but tough people do". Not one to look for motivation from that stuff but that one stuck. A lot of tough folks around here.

Quote:

The waves keep getting more hard hitting though, but still standing. You hang in there as well. Reminded of a quote someone sent me "tough times don't last, but tough people do". Not one to look for motivation from that stuff but that one stuck. A lot of tough folks around here.

You'll find that over time the waves become nothing but ripples. Me now? Not even pebbles in a pond. There is some anger at this bullshite she is doing, but that's it.

Originally Posted By: lt0402

Kevin, appreciated bud. Yeah, I'm driving forward for the sake of my D. W is a great mother, but D being subject to her influence 95% of the time (W's parenting plan) would not be good for her mental health. Appreciated bud!

My dilemma too. I want my kids to have a great mom, but i am concerned about the mental health of them (and her issues she will pass along). Fortunately, i will have them 50% of the time, so i need to rock that time.

Originally Posted By: KevinIn

Originally Posted By: lt0402

I am in the same boat, my friend. My ex and her family are batshit crazy.

lt -- I continue to admire your patience and focus on what matters (your D), but I have no idea how you do it. It seems like your W is trying to make things so miserable that you run away and just give in on her (ridiculous) 95/5 split. If you could get her to 50/50, would you take that deal?

Given enough evidence and if he has been doing proper documentation and all, he could get 50/50 or better. Why would he ask her for that? That's what the lawyer is for. It would be a fight and he needs to be prepared for anything/everything from her, but he needs to protect himself. And his family.

Quick journaling and will respond in am. Need to drag my butt to the gym first thing so have to grab my beauty sleep.

Start the day off with a text conversation with W when I get to work.

Me: "is repair guy coming back out today? Just got a msg he is scheduled to come back"

W: "it was fixed yest. We have a second showing at 12:30 so nobody can come out today"

Me: "Ok."

"I feel really out of the loop on the house. Could you please let me know when we get showings?"

W: "I didn't know until 2 minutes ago. I don't check my messages when I'm sleeping. I don't know any more than you do. "

"I'm not keeping information from you. I don't know what you feel you don't know "

"I haven't gotten any specific feedback other than it looks good. If I did I would forward it. You can read my messages to realtor if you want. "

"For what it's worth, I mentioned three times right in front of you on Monday that we had a showing at 11 yesterday and you had no idea what was going on. The reason you might feel out of the loop is because you don't listen to what's going on right in front of you. This happens all the time and you blame us."

Me: "I see you're frustrated but I am a little bit as well. I don't need to see realtors messages. I'm a bit worried about the lack of information flow from Realtor if this is all we are getting. It seems like we would have gotten more feedback on the open house. Concerned she is not focused on us."

W: "We did get feedback. You were in the car when I got the messages from her. There hasn't been any negative feedback for her to give us. This is exactly how this process works. Not only that but we're getting showings during the week which doesn't usually happen. There were so many people at the open house they extended it. I genuinely don't know what else you want her to be doing she's doing exactly what we need her to do. "

"If you need something specific you need to let me know. Otherwise this is exactly how this works. If we were getting feedback it would be negative so this is actually a good problem to have. They're saying it looks good. I can't give you info I don't have. "

"She told us both we should only be worried if we don't have 10 showings in three weeks. We've had 6 or 7 by day 5 and a second showing today and a successful open house. Seriously if you need something specific from her I need to know so I can ask for it. I'm not going to go to someone who is working her butt off for us and complain for no reason."

Me: "If you are comfortable then I am as well. I don't have the direct link to Realtor friend that you do so I'm not seeing how much back and forth there is."

"It did worry me that we didn't get firm numbers on the amount of people there for the open house. In previous house sale we got those and an estimate of how many neighbors were there. Not important in the scheme of things but seemed like we'd get that feedback."

"It also caught me a bit off guard that I didn't know about the showings on Friday until I asked you. I'd just thought we'd talk on that type of thing."

"End of the day, I trust your judgement on this. It would just help me if there was more dialogue between us on it. If you are comfortable Realtor friend is giving us everything then I'm good on that front."

"Did D make it to school today?"

W: "Yes"

I do feel like I'm not getting information I want from W on the house sale. W is the point person with realtor since it's our Ds friends mom. Also, W has complained about me taking this stuff over before. Leaving it to her, but I feel she at least needs to keep me informed. Much like her driving the rental decision.

That said, I don't like not being in the drivers seat so I'm probably overly on edge bc of that. Fully understand where my angst lies on this.

Weird part is that when I came home W was neutral to me. Odd, as she's been very abrasive at any comment I make as of late. Asked her some questions and got normal conversational answers back. It was not the norm so I took note. Usually, in the past, neutral or even helpful has meant W feels guilty about something. Not sure if that's it but I'm definitely taking note of that as well. Somewhat on guard right now.

D and I had fun hanging out tonight. Laughed a lot at some funny music we found. Rough day at work so the D time was much needed. Suck a quirky and awesome kid!

Off to bed. Thanks all for the support. Will post again tomorrow with some responses!

I0402 -

I'm still here buddy, but its been some time I must say. Wanted to check on you during a sleepless night. Read your tale for the time I have been out. Found a similarity of you and I:

Originally Posted By: It0402

Me: "I see you're frustrated but I am a little bit as well. I don't need to see realtors messages. I'm a bit worried about the lack of information flow from Realtor if this is all we are getting. It seems like we would have gotten more feedback on the open house. Concerned she is not focused on us."

Sounds like something I said in March of '16. I don't wish to show up out of seemingly nowhere and criticize, but your house will sell, people want to buy houses. Find the balance between not seeming concerned and still being in charge. Don't let her see you have a serious regard for this, after all, she brought this upon you both.

On the up, man I do love your R with the D9. I recall when you first started W was trying to collapse that. As well, the GAL in the gym continues. Way to f-ing go my friend. It0402, I think you are well my friend. I'm not certain if saying "it's good to see you" is truly appropriate here in the DB, but it's good to see you.

Originally Posted By: Jeep74

I didn't say he needed to ask her.

CT, you have no idea how happy it makes me to see you brother! I've poked my nose over in the MLC forum to see if you'd updated but hadn't seen anything recently. Been wondering about you, but already knew that you'd be doing really well. You're a strong dude. Hope things are going well, as you deserve it bud!

Know that your thoughts are always appreciated. Trying to be more open w/ the W when I'm not ok w/ her behavior. Pick my spots to effectively challenge and push back on her. Not in a mean or overly forceful way, but with just enough emphasis to let her know things need to change.

That's not to say that I won't forcefully enforce my boundaries when crossed. Having to do that less frequently as of late, as the months of constant attack have waned recently. W seems to be in some sort of place where she's given up. I find myself worried that she's slipping into some depression and is turning to alcohol every evening to get through it. Just observation of her behavior as it changes during this thing.

With that said, that's why I'm attempting to find places to challenge, as well as support. Letting her make and drive decisions where I previously would have done all the heavy lifting. letting her know that I'm there to assist but she's in the driver's seat. Is it effective or changing anything? Who knows. But it's something different. Yesterday she seemed content and neutral. Who knows why. Wondered if it would carry over to today, but I came home early and it was not to be. D hung out with me from when I got home until bedtime and W stewed and made a couple snooty comments.

I still have hope, but realistically I recognize the long odds of any R. I'm at the point of questioning what the point is in chasing something that's stacked so heavily against me. Haven't yet come up w/ an answer to that one, but my brain churns through it over and over. In the end it comes down to my gut telling me it's not quite time yet. Tough to ignore my head screaming that enough is enough though. Guessing i'll just know when that time is, if W doesn't force it first. Who knows.

Dude, my R w/ my D is leaps and bounds above where it had been at the start of this. She is my world and I'd do anything for her. One of the bright, shining lights to come out of this not so great life experience. That and I feel like I'm a much stronger and well balanced person overall. Almost feel like I should thank my W for that. So happy to see you again amigo, let me know I can help you with anything! Was starting to wonder if you'd gone the way of RSG and moved on from this place. And it does seem very strange to be glad to see a friend back in DB land!

Jeep, yeah, not quite there yet on her actions not affecting me but I'm a hell of a lot better on that front than I was. Was some rough sailing for awhile there.

Kevin, I agree. I think the focus just has to be on making your time w/ the kids as high quality as possible. Offset any potential negative coming from the other camp. Hard to do, but I think if we can do that successfully the kids will massively benefit from it.

JR, appreciate your support as always brother. Knowing we've been in this together has helped a lot, even though it's sucked for both of us. I hope you're doing well w/ where you are right now my friend. That's an interesting question on the 50/50. I've gone down that path in my head too. I don't think I'd be quite ready to toss in the towel yet, even for the 50/50. Not sure what it is that's keeping me in this right now, but my gut is telling me it's not the right time to exit. Rational, I don't know. Just can't put my finger on it. W may force the issue before I'm ready to, but we will see. I don't think it's fear that's keeping me in it, but I could just be fooling myself. Could be that I've tricked myself into thinking something will change. Unsure. W does seem hell bent on making things miserable though. Not as frustrating as it used to be I guess.

Thank you all for your thoughts and support. You are all true friends and are much appreciated!

Busy day so far. Up early to change a tire on my truck and clean up a couple house things before our showings today. Planted some trees yesterday bc one of the feedback items was a lack of privacy alongside one part of our house. Nothing from W except more complaints. She is a little nicer to me when she needs something but is the same cold person when she does not. W got mad at me for throwing away some used paper towels that were on the floor. (She "doesn't need my help" with things)

Took D to the zoo during the showings. Just her and I. We grab subs on the way home. W complains bread is too hard. Whatever.

D then has a friend come over. I ask W if she'd gotten D something she'd asked for for her birthday. W tells me she told me that weeks ago and like always I don't listen. Did not push back there, but I know she never told me that. Barely talks to me now.

Then W tells me that I can't just make plans without discussing with her. (D asked me to take her to a park and a botanical fardens tomorrow morning and afternoon to hunt Pok�mon). That it's not healthy for me to be Ds playmate. That it goes for both W and I. That D should be out playing with friends. That I make plans without knowing what else is going on. W says me spending as much time as I do with D is not good for her independence. She then adds that it's not good for me. She uses herself as the example of not spending too much time with D. She says that I'm missing that D is not happy with me. I tell her that D and i can manage our R and we talk about and fix things when they happen. W says that's not the case and D is hiding it from me.

She then adds that the dynamic with the 3 of us in the room is not healthy for D. I tell W that the dynamic is not from D and I, it's from her. W stumbles, says she knows and that doesn't matter, and says I'm missing the point, as always, then goes quiet.

I tell her that I will work on finding a better balance of my time and Ds. I then say if she can work on the dynamic then the three of us in the room at the same time would be better. W says there is no way she can stop being angry at me, ever. That's just not going to happen.

Now I'm sitting here posting this while being 5 feet from W in the family room. It's surreal. D and friend just came down to show me memes they made on the iPad. Everything here is normal, except for my W. I don't know why she keeps trying to play it off that it's me.

Still grinding...

It is just so hard to figure out he true dynamic of what may be going on. If I were to expierence it first hand I'm near certain I coukd be of more help. But I'm not so all I can do is offer what I see as possibilities.

It seems like there has been a long run of you not listening to your wife. Would you agree with that? You havevbrought that up,a lot where W claims to have told you something but you forgot or you said you'd do something but later forgot. That seems to be an area to work on

That said I have to wonder if your only chance here is to completely disengage. Don't try to do ANYTHING "nice" for her as she will only complain about it. That little interaction of throwing away something she left on the floor screams of this. I know it's really hard to go dark while in the same house but it seems clear W is very irritated if you try - try anything or even believe that this can be fixed. I have to wonder if you dropped all interaction if she would not come to you. Stop chasing the dog - to quote from the DR book.

I would not let her get way with this crap with D. I've brought that up in the past. W is clearly trying to use D to substantiate HER issues. She says how D does not want to spend time with you when it's really W that does not. Keep doing what you are doing with D. If W wants to be on the outside while you and D do things, so be it. She will soon see this has backfired on her

The best you can do from what I can see is to drop the rope and let W be. Don't ask her to do things, don't try to help her, don't just don't engage. If you can do this I have to bet you will see some change in your W. Whatever you want, she wants the opposite - therefore if you want to be far away from her and do nothing with her, what is W likely to want then - yep, The opposite. I think it's worth a try.

I agree with Don.

Drop the rope with wife. But I noticed that you assume she feels guilty when she's nice (most around here assume that lashing out is from guilt, but anyhow)

don't put her in a no win so that civility or kindness are due to evil motives and abrasive rudeness is b/c...why? B/c things are good??

As for the relationship you have with your d, your w can stay in her sandbox and you stay in yours. it's over the line for her to say that crap. Obviously it's good for d to have friends over (is your d somehow socially isolated? Home schooled? What??)

zbut I've never heard of a father daughter being close, described as a bad thing. ...unless a mother envies it. Which is really unbecoming.

I don't know the situation enough to know how dirty your wife might play, (allegations of horrible things) but your d is 9 and I assume can speak for herself, absent some developmental delay.

Sheesh...talk about boundaries.

Oh, and listen better to your w. I'd write things she says, on paper IN FRONT OF HER.

And maybe ask her for more clarity ?? (Or fewer snide remarks as they seem to attach to every answer she gives you. Makes it harder to remember the substance if you're too busy defending yourself.)

That's all I have for now and no, I don't know all of your situation. Just this part of the thread...

(and I just saw Don H posting and had to read up!)

More later...

^ This.

Originally Posted By: DonH

It seems like there has been a long run of you not listening to your wife. Would you agree with that? You havevbrought that up,a lot where W claims to have told you something but you forgot or you said you'd do something but later forgot. That seems to be an area to work on

Yes, 100% own that. At first I'd thought it wasn't that I "wasn't listening", it was just that I'd forget to do things she asked. But now I realize I never was truly listening to her and I didn't make time for her to have a forum where I'd really just sit and listen to her. I still need work on this, but the opportunities are few and far between now. Getting better, albeit not great yet.

Originally Posted By: DonH

I would not let her get way with this crap with D. I've brought that up in the past. W is clearly trying to use D to substantiate HER issues. She says how D does not want to spend time with you when it's really W that does not. Keep doing what you are doing with D. If W wants to be on the outside while you and D do things, so be it. She will soon see this has backfired on her

The best you can do from what I can see is to drop the rope and let W be. Don't ask her to do things, don't try to help her, don't just don't engage. If you can do this I have to bet you will see some change in your W. Whatever you want, she wants the opposite - therefore if you want to be far away from her and do nothing with her, what is W likely to want then - yep, The opposite. I think it's worth a try.

My go to phrase w/ W whenever she says something about Ds and my R is now "I'll discuss that with D and the two of us will work that out". I've said it a few times recently when she's brought this stuff up and it has started leading to a change of topic w/ W. Firm and direct. On that note, D and I had an awesome time hanging out all weekend. Talked to D about how our R is and she says it's good. only complaint is she finds it aggravating when I act dumb about something in a joking way (dad humor pretty much), so paring that down a bit. Doing good on keeping my promises she says and her and I are in a good place! Makes me very happy!

Having a difficult time dropping the rope while we live together. We've been like a team (albeit a dysfunctional one) the past month while getting the house ready to sell. Depending on each other to get everything completed. Felt good. Now that we're through that though, we're back to the non-team I guess. Seems like there's always something that we need to help each other with so long as we live together. Unsure how the rope gets fully dropped in that situation, but will attempt a more stand offish approach. Not mean or anything, just neutral and going about my business maybe. Still not fully sure what that looks like, but will work on it. Thank you Don!

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

25years, appreciate the thoughts! Confused on the above though. Seems like her choices that put her in a no win situation, which results in the guilt, and subsequently leads to the niceness/etc. Guess maybe that by dropping the rope and removing myself from her day to day I'm not subject to that?

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

As for the relationship you have with your d, your w can stay in her sandbox and you stay in yours. it's over the line for her to say that crap. Obviously it's good for d to have friends over (is your d somehow socially isolated? Home schooled? What??)

zbut I've never heard of a father daughter being close, described as a bad thing. ...unless a mother envies it. Which is really unbecoming.

I agree on R w/ D. Right now, we pretty much do separate stuff w/ D outside of the house. Every cpl weekends we'll all go out to dinner, and when we're at the house we're all usually together, but activity wise it's either W or I alone w/ D outside of the house.

D isn't isolated luckily. Energetic kid w/ a bunch of friends. tends to have friends over, or be over at their houses at least once or twice a weekend. Sleepovers, etc, the normal kid stuff. D is shy at times around new people, but warms up quickly. As far as I can tell she's a blossoming, social kid. Agree that W saying that stuff is over the line. I used to believe it, but w/ DonH and other's help here I've seen it for what it is. D is my little buddy and my R has gotten so much stronger w/ her this past year. That's the thing I'm most proud of and am experiencing a lot of joy bc of it!

Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc

I don't know the situation enough to know how dirty your wife might play, (allegations of horrible things) but your d is 9 and I assume can speak for herself, absent some developmental delay.

Sheesh...talk about boundaries.

Oh, and listen better to your w. I'd write things she says, on paper IN FRONT OF HER.

And maybe ask her for more clarity ?? (Or fewer snide remarks as they seem to attach to every answer she gives you. Makes it harder to remember the substance if you're too busy defending yourself.)

No developmental stuff. Normal kid. I have noticed that D tends to placate W to some degree when it's the 3 of us. Weird dynamic. W is very dependent upon D for her own well being I think. Not healthy for either of them but I'm not sure how to address other than speaking w/ D about specific things b/t her and W when they are over the top. I try not to do that too often unless it's really warranted, but have a few times.

Definitely need to listen better to W. Ongoing work in progress. I like the idea of writing stuff down, will borrow that one. I've taken to putting alarms/reminders in my phone to remember stuff and that's helped immensely. Writing down and asking for clarity seems like a good next step.

Really appreciate your thoughts!!!!!

Jeep, appreciate you brother!

Originally Posted By: lt0402

Me: "I feel really out of the loop on the house. Could you please let me know when we get showings?"

Me: "I see you're frustrated but I am a little bit as well. I don't need to see realtors messages. I'm a bit worried about the lack of information flow from Realtor if this is all we are getting. It seems like we would have gotten more feedback on the open house. Concerned she is not focused on us."

Me: "It did worry me that we didn't get firm numbers on the amount of people there for the open house. In previous house sale we got those and an estimate of how many neighbors were there. Not important in the scheme of things but seemed like we'd get that feedback."

"It also caught me a bit off guard that I didn't know about the showings on Friday until I asked you. I'd just thought we'd talk on that type of thing."

"End of the day, I trust your judgement on this. It would just help me if there was more dialogue between us on it. If you are comfortable Realtor friend is giving us everything then I'm good on that front."

You SAY you are going to let W drive this, but if so, then these kinds of messages are kind of unnecessary. Youre bringing up very specific things that you think W should be doing and isnt. If youre letting her drive it, then whya re you asking for such detailed numbers? It comes off like you arent trusting of her.

Im not sure the arrangement you have set up. But why dont the three of you have a group message or group email? When I sold my house a few years back, the realtor had an app that you could see when showings are scheduled and my ex and I both had it on our phones.

I would say there is some information that you need - such as when showings are, but if youre letting W drive, then let her drive. Honestly, it seems very strange that this wouldnt be a joint thing - an opportunity to collaborate and work together, but I suppose thats another issue.

new thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2737008#Post2737008